1 2013-09-12 00:00:05 <agath> longcrap: no, you have to take all that large shit and the related butt, for now.
   2 2013-09-12 00:00:46 <warren> hmm, anyone know how to git push only a particular tag, not all?
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   6 2013-09-12 00:01:52 <cfields> git push repo tag
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   9 2013-09-12 00:03:11 <warren> oh
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  12 2013-09-12 00:04:52 <warren> cfields: a while back you gave me advice on how to always order linking such that it doesn't matter if it is a static or dynamic link
  13 2013-09-12 00:05:06 <warren> cfields: what was that again?  I'm actually at a point where I'm using that knowledge now.
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  19 2013-09-12 00:16:42 <cfields> warren: great explanation here: http://webpages.charter.net/ppluzhnikov/linker.html
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  23 2013-09-12 00:21:05 <cfields> tl;dr is most->least dependent
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  27 2013-09-12 00:22:08 <cfields> though for the most part, build tools like libtool/pkg-config should be handling that for you
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  37 2013-09-12 00:34:38 <theboos> is there an idempotent alternative to the rpc "move" command? I'd be assuaged if it returned some sort of hash of the results so I could check whether the move had taken place already
  38 2013-09-12 00:35:04 <sipa> there's no such thing, no
  39 2013-09-12 00:35:16 <sipa> it just adds a move entry
  40 2013-09-12 00:35:18 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  41 2013-09-12 00:35:55 <theboos> is a move guaranteed to succeed?
  42 2013-09-12 00:35:57 <phantomcircuit> theboos, the bitcoind accounts functionality should not be used for any serious accounting
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  44 2013-09-12 00:36:13 <phantomcircuit> it's effectively impossible to have a correct backup
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  46 2013-09-12 00:36:49 <jgarzik> w00t
  47 2013-09-12 00:37:02 <jgarzik> that inline assembly sure was easy.  register-based data storage, here we come.
  48 2013-09-12 00:37:20 <sipa> theboos: how do you mean, guaranteed to succeed?
  49 2013-09-12 00:37:25 <theboos> ok thanks. I guess I got the impression that the account functionality was recommended as a replacement
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  51 2013-09-12 00:37:35 <sipa> replacement for what?
  52 2013-09-12 00:37:41 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, linux kernel question, say i wanted to turn discard ops from the filesystem into null sector writes, how/where would i do that?
  53 2013-09-12 00:37:53 <phantomcircuit> (stupid virtualization platforms dont support TRIM)
  54 2013-09-12 00:38:09 CheckDavid has joined
  55 2013-09-12 00:38:14 <sipa> theboos: it's guaranteed to succeed, assuming no crashes or database write errors
  56 2013-09-12 00:38:19 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, block layer
  57 2013-09-12 00:38:27 <theboos> a replacement for more abstract solutions like keeping track of accounts in software that calls the bitcoin rpc api
  58 2013-09-12 00:38:28 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, or a tiny Device Mapper shim layer
  59 2013-09-12 00:38:32 <jgarzik> "DM"
  60 2013-09-12 00:38:35 Thepok has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
  61 2013-09-12 00:38:40 <jgarzik> *poof* baby bedtime, bbiah
  62 2013-09-12 00:38:47 <phantomcircuit> hmm maybe a tiny device mapper would be better
  63 2013-09-12 00:38:54 <sipa> theboos: it works for one particular type of problem, and indeed you can't do decent backups
  64 2013-09-12 00:38:54 <phantomcircuit> dont really want to be rebuilding the debian kernel
  65 2013-09-12 00:39:03 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, thanks
  66 2013-09-12 00:39:13 <sipa> i wouldn't recomment it in general
  67 2013-09-12 00:39:17 <theboos> the data is not stored in the wallet.dat folder then?
  68 2013-09-12 00:39:20 <theboos> file*
  69 2013-09-12 00:39:22 <sipa> it is
  70 2013-09-12 00:39:33 <sipa> but you basically need a backup after every operation
  71 2013-09-12 00:40:17 <phantomcircuit> theboos, the bitcoind wallet is good at keeping track of keys and transactions involving those keys
  72 2013-09-12 00:40:19 <gavinandresen> theboos : if you have a small number of "accounts" to keep track of, and they are all your own, and you're running on reliable hardware (e.g. maybe a RAID array of disks) then bitcoind's accounts might be a good idea.
  73 2013-09-12 00:40:21 ryan-c has joined
  74 2013-09-12 00:40:23 <phantomcircuit> it's not a very good accounting system
  75 2013-09-12 00:40:33 <gavinandresen> Don't use it to keep track of other people's money.
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  77 2013-09-12 00:41:15 <phantomcircuit> theboos, i guess the way to think of it is, if all the accounting information disappeared, would that be a real problem
  78 2013-09-12 00:41:20 <phantomcircuit> if the answer is no then yeah why not
  79 2013-09-12 00:41:28 <theboos> ok - maybe we should change the wiki page that says "makes it easy to create web services that maintain a separate bitcoin balance for each customer" :P
  80 2013-09-12 00:41:32 <gavinandresen> In general, my advice would be:  unless you have previous experience keeping track of other people's money, don't use bitcoin as your first experience doing that.
  81 2013-09-12 00:41:40 <phantomcircuit> theboos, link?
  82 2013-09-12 00:41:53 <theboos> on my other pc - it's the wiki page titled Accounts Explained
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  84 2013-09-12 00:42:50 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, lol
  85 2013-09-12 00:42:53 <phantomcircuit> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Accounts_explained&diff=1183&oldid=628
  86 2013-09-12 00:43:00 <phantomcircuit> fix your mess :)
  87 2013-09-12 00:43:16 <phantomcircuit> (iirc my wiki account isn't whitelisted or whatever it is)
  88 2013-09-12 00:43:22 <theboos> hehe
  89 2013-09-12 00:43:26 <sipa> phantomcircuit: you need to pay a fee
  90 2013-09-12 00:43:33 <sipa> anti-spam measure or something
  91 2013-09-12 00:43:35 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i know
  92 2013-09-12 00:43:37 <sipa> ok
  93 2013-09-12 00:43:43 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i was part of the decision to do that
  94 2013-09-12 00:43:51 <phantomcircuit> and then didn't ever bother to pay it
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  96 2013-09-12 00:44:53 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: Mmm.  I'm older and wiser now.
  97 2013-09-12 00:45:39 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, it took trying to fix a messed up britcoin wallet to understand that the accounts feature didn't really work for that
  98 2013-09-12 00:45:57 <gavinandresen> Mmm.  we're all older and wiser now....
  99 2013-09-12 00:46:03 <phantomcircuit> essentially restore from backup -> wrong people getting coins
 100 2013-09-12 00:46:07 <phantomcircuit> "wat"
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 102 2013-09-12 00:53:14 <nanotube> <gavinandresen> Mmm.  we're all older and wiser now.... <- speak for yourself. i'm just older. :P
 103 2013-09-12 00:54:26 <gavinandresen> I do sometimes wonder if I'm getting stupider yet; I should dig out that graph of cognitive ability versus age, but my stupid brain doesn't remember where I saw it.
 104 2013-09-12 00:54:39 <sipa> QED.
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 113 2013-09-12 01:08:10 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: edited https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Accounts_explained
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 122 2013-09-12 01:19:14 <warren> sipa: one more gitian patch to push to you
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 124 2013-09-12 01:25:15 <nanotube> hehe
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 126 2013-09-12 01:30:35 <sipa> cfields: present?
 127 2013-09-12 01:31:08 <cfields> yes
 128 2013-09-12 01:31:56 <sipa> cfields: to deal with libsecp256k1 for now, to integrate it with bitcoin's makesystem, just ~mimic the leveldb stuff?
 129 2013-09-12 01:32:14 <cfields> yep
 130 2013-09-12 01:32:26 <sipa> bah :)
 131 2013-09-12 01:32:31 <cfields> sipa: for your own hacking, or for potential integration?
 132 2013-09-12 01:32:37 <sipa> cfields: my own hacking
 133 2013-09-12 01:33:26 <cfields> then yes, i'd say so.
 134 2013-09-12 01:33:37 <cfields> i forget, does it have a make? or just a shell script for now?
 135 2013-09-12 01:35:11 FabianB_ has joined
 136 2013-09-12 01:35:31 <sipa> a config script that generates a config file, which is then included in the makefile
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 140 2013-09-12 01:41:21 <cfields> sipa: can you point me to the script?
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 142 2013-09-12 01:43:21 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/blob/master/configure
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 144 2013-09-12 01:44:42 <cfields> sipa: i could integrate that pretty quickly if that's your ultimate goal
 145 2013-09-12 01:45:26 <cfields> it could build as an island, like leveldb does, so that it could be split out if desired
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 147 2013-09-12 01:47:36 <sipa> cfields: if you have time for that, by all means
 148 2013-09-12 01:47:50 <sipa> but there's no intent to get this into bitcoin anytime soon
 149 2013-09-12 01:47:55 <sipa> at least not upstream
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 152 2013-09-12 01:52:33 <cfields> sipa: ok. it will be a while then, time is short atm
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 158 2013-09-12 02:04:58 <warren> sipa: pushed
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 166 2013-09-12 02:12:54 <sipa> warren: i'm first rebasing it onto bitcoin master
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 186 2013-09-12 02:28:22 <sipa> cfields: where would i add -lgmp?
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 192 2013-09-12 02:39:59 <cfields> sipa: quick example: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=qkF3Kn5Z
 193 2013-09-12 02:41:48 <jgarzik> w00t
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 195 2013-09-12 02:42:09 <jgarzik> key storage-in-registers working for mmx and sse2
 196 2013-09-12 02:42:23 <jgarzik> now to look at other ABIs, and see if they have registers typically untouched by compilers
 197 2013-09-12 02:42:34 elevatioN has quit ()
 198 2013-09-12 02:42:56 * jgarzik 's recall of ABI details is rusty… 10 year old knowledge at this point
 199 2013-09-12 02:45:50 tiberiusiv has joined
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 201 2013-09-12 02:49:47 <gavinandresen> I just pushed a 0.8.5 candidate branch to github:  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/0.8.5
 202 2013-09-12 02:50:20 <gavinandresen> Backported two cherry-picks (sipa's fix for the height-in-the-coinbase code, and gmaxwell's workaround for the negative transaction.version problem)
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 205 2013-09-12 02:58:10 <tiberiusiv> gavinandresen: how many more fuckups can we expect?
 206 2013-09-12 02:58:52 <gavinandresen> tiberiusiv: the usual number.
 207 2013-09-12 02:59:04 thrasher`` has left ()
 208 2013-09-12 02:59:11 <tiberiusiv> maybe time to pass the torch to more professional crowd?
 209 2013-09-12 02:59:21 <gavinandresen> tiberiusiv: if you're looking for bug-free software, then … umm ...
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 212 2013-09-12 03:00:11 <gavinandresen> tiberiusiv: sure, be my guest.  Go find somebody Professional who writes bug-free code to take on bitcoin, like Microsoft or Adobe or…. ummm….
 213 2013-09-12 03:01:03 <TheLordOfTime> ;;op
 214 2013-09-12 03:03:35 <TheLordOfTime> gavinandresen (and everyone here) I apologize, he's been ranting about bugs in the software, and been doing so in a manner which has gotten him silenced in pretty much every channel that matters, I guess I forgot he wasn't banned from here... :/
 215 2013-09-12 03:03:41 <TheLordOfTime> sorry for subjecting you all to his crap.
 216 2013-09-12 03:03:55 * TheLordOfTime goes back to the sniper perch.
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 220 2013-09-12 03:08:11 <warren> sipa: please be sure -lgmp can be either static or dynamic along with boost, bdb, etc.
 221 2013-09-12 03:09:47 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: that git fix should probably go in too
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 223 2013-09-12 03:10:04 <gavinandresen> what git fix
 224 2013-09-12 03:12:05 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2808
 225 2013-09-12 03:12:08 <Luke-Jr> weird, I thought it was in master already
 226 2013-09-12 03:12:20 <Luke-Jr> although now it won't be mergable at all probably
 227 2013-09-12 03:12:25 <Luke-Jr> (to master/autoconf)
 228 2013-09-12 03:13:39 <cfields> gavinandresen: mist clientversion.h ?
 229 2013-09-12 03:13:43 <cfields> *missed. heh
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 232 2013-09-12 03:14:55 <cfields> Luke-Jr: a different version of that went into master with autotools
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 234 2013-09-12 03:15:20 <Luke-Jr> cfields: right, but 0.8.5 doesn't benefit from that
 235 2013-09-12 03:15:42 <cfields> <Luke-Jr> although now it won't be mergable at all probably
 236 2013-09-12 03:15:42 <cfields> <Luke-Jr> (to master/autoconf)
 237 2013-09-12 03:15:45 <cfields> was responding to that
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 249 2013-09-12 03:27:59 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: that isn't a critical bugfix, NACK on including it in 0.8.5
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 251 2013-09-12 03:28:58 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: ok, though I'm not sure any of 0.8.5 is very critical either with that definition O.o
 252 2013-09-12 03:29:24 <Luke-Jr> (best case, it causes source builds to report the wrong version; worst case, it causes a security violation)
 253 2013-09-12 03:29:29 <warren> Luke-Jr: allow clients to start without a corrupted db error is not critical?
 254 2013-09-12 03:29:37 <Luke-Jr> (the bug being fixed with the git PR)
 255 2013-09-12 03:29:52 <Luke-Jr> warren: there is a simple workaround, and it's temporary
 256 2013-09-12 03:30:32 <gavinandresen> sigh.  Luke, you're being unnecessarily annoying again.
 257 2013-09-12 03:30:37 <Luke-Jr> as long as miners are running with the non-standard patch, it shouldn't affect 0.8.0-0.8.4 soon (if it still does at all)
 258 2013-09-12 03:31:10 <warren> Luke-Jr: you are overly optimistic, especially for the thousands of p2pool nodes
 259 2013-09-12 03:31:19 <gavinandresen> what warren said.
 260 2013-09-12 03:31:30 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: sorry, just trying to provide additional information - I started my reply with "ok" to express my acceptance of your decision regardless, but thought that other info might be relevant
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 262 2013-09-12 03:32:34 <cfields> gavinandresen: just-in-case ping. You saw my comment about clientversion.h bump?
 263 2013-09-12 03:33:10 <gavinandresen> cfields: nope, missed it.
 264 2013-09-12 03:33:49 <gavinandresen> I forgot to update clientversion.h?
 265 2013-09-12 03:34:03 <cfields> gavinandresen: seems that way
 266 2013-09-12 03:34:17 <gavinandresen> yup, sure did… that's why I don't tag immediately....
 267 2013-09-12 03:34:18 <warren> gavinandresen: was a CVE assigned to the negative tx version issue?
 268 2013-09-12 03:34:43 <gavinandresen> warren: no.  Does it warrant one?  Not a vulnerability per-se
 269 2013-09-12 03:34:54 <warren> gavinandresen: it's sort of a DoS, kinda
 270 2013-09-12 03:34:59 <gavinandresen> … just a bug.  And I don't think we need a CVE number for every bug
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 272 2013-09-12 03:35:30 <warren> ok
 273 2013-09-12 03:36:02 Coincidental has joined
 274 2013-09-12 03:36:43 random_cat has joined
 275 2013-09-12 03:36:52 <gavinandresen> Bumped clientversion.h: + 7b5d1d7...ef14a26 0.8.5 -> 0.8.5 (forced update)
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 277 2013-09-12 03:38:38 <warren> looks good
 278 2013-09-12 03:38:41 <cfields> thanks
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 282 2013-09-12 03:43:58 <cfields> er, heh, thanks for bumping. i wasn't taking credit for the release :p
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 286 2013-09-12 03:51:42 <road33> anyone have a recomended way to get a private key on both android's main app, bitcoin-wallet to something like multibit? Google is not helping
 287 2013-09-12 03:52:14 <TheLordOfTime> road33, i think the first part you have to figure out is whether you can actually *get* the privkeys out of the android wallet
 288 2013-09-12 03:52:23 <TheLordOfTime> only person who would know for certain is the developer of the app
 289 2013-09-12 03:52:27 OldEnK has joined
 290 2013-09-12 03:52:29 <Luke-Jr> road33: not even Google can solve a problem with no (current) solution
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 293 2013-09-12 03:53:00 <Luke-Jr> road33: and really, it's the wallet you want to export/share, not the address
 294 2013-09-12 03:53:03 <road33> the app will backup an encrypted key, but its not able to go into multibit from what i can tell
 295 2013-09-12 03:53:28 <road33> agree but wallet=priv key me thinks?
 296 2013-09-12 03:53:32 <doublec> I've imported keys from the android app into bitcoind
 297 2013-09-12 03:53:44 <doublec> is that what you want to do?
 298 2013-09-12 03:53:45 <Luke-Jr> road33: in a sense; but the wallet is always changing
 299 2013-09-12 03:54:12 <Luke-Jr> road33: so you can't just copy it once, you'd have to constantly copy back and forth
 300 2013-09-12 03:54:15 <road33> Luke-Jr: sorry thats from blockchain, as I understand it, basically, I want the balance on my PC, and android when I am on the road
 301 2013-09-12 03:54:30 <road33> both clients update indipendantly
 302 2013-09-12 03:54:42 <road33> and I can accept and send payment from either place
 303 2013-09-12 03:54:53 <Luke-Jr> road33: that isn't possible today
 304 2013-09-12 03:55:11 <road33> and most of all if I loose the phone I can still spend it, without purchasing another android phone
 305 2013-09-12 03:55:11 <Luke-Jr> road33: there's some work on "HD wallets" which can support sharing them, but it's not complete yet
 306 2013-09-12 03:55:46 <road33> the android app will not export an unencrptyed key, which makes sense to me as the phone is less secure than a pc
 307 2013-09-12 03:56:58 <Luke-Jr> road33: trying to do this without HD wallets, you will *probably* end up losing money
 308 2013-09-12 03:56:59 <road33> doublec: bitcoind could work, but rather have something like multibit
 309 2013-09-12 03:57:15 <Luke-Jr> I think Multibit is further along with HD wallets than bitcoind
 310 2013-09-12 03:59:22 <road33> this sounds overly complicated, HD wallets, it has its usages and its smart, but at the end of the day this is a private key, can't i just get that decrypted somehow, and import it?
 311 2013-09-12 04:00:14 <road33> then each client updates their wallets indipendalty, i just want a small spending account, and move btc to it from time to time.
 312 2013-09-12 04:00:18 <doublec> road33: this is what I did iirc http://gary-rowe.com/agilestack/2011/12/28/how-to-recover-lost-bitcoins-from-an-android-wallet/
 313 2013-09-12 04:00:23 <road33> can you export from bitcoind to multibit
 314 2013-09-12 04:00:24 <Luke-Jr> road33: a regular wallet is not "just a private key" - it's a collection of private keys; and sharing just a single one is generally useless
 315 2013-09-12 04:00:42 <doublec> my case was the android wallet for some reason wasn't picking up transactions involving the address so I imported into bitcoind to recover funds
 316 2013-09-12 04:01:14 <doublec> road33: it won't help your usecase though since multibit/bitcoind behave differently in the way it uses addresses than the android wallet
 317 2013-09-12 04:01:23 <road33> doublec: but that was just a reported balance on the app, the balance is correct in the blockchain, correct?
 318 2013-09-12 04:01:38 <road33> doublec: reading your link
 319 2013-09-12 04:01:38 <Luke-Jr> road33: the blockchain doesn't have balances..
 320 2013-09-12 04:01:39 <doublec> iirc the android wallet always sends change to the same address - not so with other clients.
 321 2013-09-12 04:01:55 <Luke-Jr> doublec: that's a bug
 322 2013-09-12 04:08:36 dizko has joined
 323 2013-09-12 04:13:05 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: will you be tagging rc1 in the next hour or so? (should I wait up for it?)
 324 2013-09-12 04:13:24 <road33> no dice, I guess I can get adb out, and try to decode base58
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 327 2013-09-12 04:20:28 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I want to wait for ACKS from gmaxwell and maybe sipa
 328 2013-09-12 04:20:31 <road33> ok got it to work, not sure the issues, maybe spaces in the filename
 329 2013-09-12 04:21:45 <warren> gavinandresen: FWIW, we've been testing that patch in production on our 0.8.4.x
 330 2013-09-12 04:22:31 <gavinandresen> warren: cool.  Identical backported patch?
 331 2013-09-12 04:22:55 <warren> gavinandresen: nearly identical, we have an earlier patch that displays the reason for tx rejection
 332 2013-09-12 04:23:25 <warren> gavinandresen: https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/commit/2a220540258487709b77eded1e82e3839cfd5aab
 333 2013-09-12 04:23:25 <gavinandresen> The "nearly" is why I want another core dev's eyeballs to look it over
 334 2013-09-12 04:23:44 <warren> yep
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 355 2013-09-12 05:19:44 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: ack on content of 0.8.5
 356 2013-09-12 05:21:03 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: great
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 358 2013-09-12 05:23:45 <gavinandresen> I'll tag 0.8.5 as soon as I page swap out from what I'm in the middle of doing
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 362 2013-09-12 05:33:36 <gavinandresen> Pushed * [new tag]         v0.8.5 -> v0.8.5
 363 2013-09-12 05:34:06 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 364 2013-09-12 05:35:35 <gavinandresen> cfields: ping
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 367 2013-09-12 05:38:57 Application has joined
 368 2013-09-12 05:39:26 <cfields> gavinandresen: pong
 369 2013-09-12 05:39:45 <gavinandresen> So RE: building osx -arch i386 :   how are Linux builds built?
 370 2013-09-12 05:39:56 tgerring has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 371 2013-09-12 05:40:04 <gavinandresen> -arch i386 or -arch 64 or 'whatever you happen to be compiling on' ?
 372 2013-09-12 05:42:07 <cfields> gavinandresen: if i understand your question, whatever compiler you're using
 373 2013-09-12 05:42:46 <cfields> gavinandresen: i assume you're pointing out that linux builds suffer the same fate?
 374 2013-09-12 05:43:17 <gavinandresen> Yes.  Release builds must be tested, because they will ALWAYS be somewhat different than what developers are using
 375 2013-09-12 05:43:19 digitalmagus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 376 2013-09-12 05:43:27 <gavinandresen> That's why any non-trivial releases we go through a release candidate process
 377 2013-09-12 05:43:39 digitalmagus has joined
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 379 2013-09-12 05:43:39 digitalmagus has joined
 380 2013-09-12 05:43:56 <cfields> gavinandresen: i'll point out, however, that most linux users are probably more likely to go through their distro
 381 2013-09-12 05:43:58 <gavinandresen> Asking volunteer open source developers to all use exactly the same toolchain… ain't gonna happen
 382 2013-09-12 05:44:00 normanrichards has quit ()
 383 2013-09-12 05:44:21 sensorii has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 384 2013-09-12 05:44:52 <cfields> gavinandresen: i'm not suggesting that they use the same toolchain, but it seems like a reasonable requirement to use the same arch/sdk
 385 2013-09-12 05:45:14 sensorii has joined
 386 2013-09-12 05:45:24 <gavinandresen> cfields: it really isn't on OSX.  Have you tried recompiling all of your macports with -arch i386 -mmacos_min_blahblah
 387 2013-09-12 05:45:39 saivann has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 388 2013-09-12 05:46:10 <nsh> gmaxwell (or anyone), if you were given a random string of 256 hex digits and told it was a clue from which you should be able to find a codeword
 389 2013-09-12 05:46:17 <nsh> what steps would you take to try and solve it?
 390 2013-09-12 05:46:29 <gmaxwell> nsh: I would ask in #bitcoin :P
 391 2013-09-12 05:46:31 <cfields> gavinandresen: yes. headache, i agree. but There that is another can of worms itself
 392 2013-09-12 05:46:40 <cfields> -There
 393 2013-09-12 05:46:43 <nsh> sorry
 394 2013-09-12 05:46:44 <gmaxwell> cfields: Whats the subject being discussed here?
 395 2013-09-12 05:46:55 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell:  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2988#issuecomment-24294869
 396 2013-09-12 05:47:00 reizuki__ has joined
 397 2013-09-12 05:47:18 <gavinandresen> cfields: what can of worms?
 398 2013-09-12 05:47:49 <cfields> gavinandresen: one being that macports right now does not look like macports last week
 399 2013-09-12 05:48:16 <warren> hence the desire for gitian mac
 400 2013-09-12 05:48:49 <gmaxwell> cfields: On the flipside, extra diversity where it is less important (away from the gitian deterministic builds) will sometimes make bugs that exist in all configurations more visibile.. this is a perk as well as a limitation.
 401 2013-09-12 05:49:05 <cfields> gavinandresen: but that's a different discussion, i'd like to wrestle about that one another time :)
 402 2013-09-12 05:49:14 <gmaxwell> cfields: I think your root concern there should be solved via a gitian-mac solution, and then let the regular builds be diverse.
 403 2013-09-12 05:49:28 <gavinandresen> +1 gmaxwell
 404 2013-09-12 05:49:33 <warren> +1
 405 2013-09-12 05:49:38 <gmaxwell> (and the diversity of the regular builds addressed with better tests too!)
 406 2013-09-12 05:49:46 <cfields> gmaxwell: that does not really address my main concern though
 407 2013-09-12 05:49:56 <gavinandresen> Ideally, we have a release engineering team that gitian builds everything, reviews changes in dependencies, yada yada yada
 408 2013-09-12 05:50:11 Coincidental has joined
 409 2013-09-12 05:50:16 <cfields> my main concern is that users end up with a runtime configuration that devs have likely never seen
 410 2013-09-12 05:50:21 <gavinandresen> cfields: what is your main concern?  My main concern is making it so difficult for OSX developers that we have to drop OSX support completely.
 411 2013-09-12 05:51:24 <gavinandresen> cfields: in three years we have had approximately zero problems caused by the OSX release being built with different -arch / -mmacos_min_version. Those types of bugs are really rare.
 412 2013-09-12 05:51:30 <cfields> gavinandresen: consider the recent osx database corruption bug
 413 2013-09-12 05:51:40 <cfields> (forget the details, just the scenario itself)
 414 2013-09-12 05:52:38 <gavinandresen> ok, considering….
 415 2013-09-12 05:52:43 <cfields> trying to determine the root cause of why that's unique to osx is very difficult when you consider the spectrum of binaries built
 416 2013-09-12 05:52:45 <gmaxwell> cfields: we can only make the builds really consistent with something gitian grade.. which we absolutely should have.  If you're saying that we're likely to have a lot of OSX "Users" who are not developing, but build from source and don't use gitian... I'm skeptical, this is OSX we're talking about.
 417 2013-09-12 05:52:53 <gjs278> as long as the coins don't send to the wrong person, there is no problem
 418 2013-09-12 05:53:32 <cfields> gmaxwell: consistent/deterministic buids are not my concern here, the opposite actually
 419 2013-09-12 05:53:40 <warren> cfields: I met *one* windows user who builds litecoin from source, and he's a pool operator.
 420 2013-09-12 05:53:40 <gmaxwell> cfields: the diversity on Linux is far far greater, and there you can't even pretend to remove it with just some flags.
 421 2013-09-12 05:53:49 <gavinandresen> cfields: even I am not going to spend the time needed to keep a -arch i386 development environment on my main development machine
 422 2013-09-12 05:54:33 <gavinandresen> So if the default was -arch i386 for configure I'd just constantly set CXXFLAGS to override it, and we'd be in the same situation we are in today
 423 2013-09-12 05:54:35 <cfields> gavinandresen: if i volunteered to come up with something to ease the process, and it delivered, would you consider changing your mind?
 424 2013-09-12 05:54:38 <gmaxwell> cfields: for developers the diversity is somewhat good, because we do marginally increase the odds of hitting a low visibility bug... creating controlled failures away from production use.
 425 2013-09-12 05:54:48 <warren> gavinandresen: meh ... chroot or multiarch linux distros make i386 build environment easy these days.
 426 2013-09-12 05:54:53 <gmaxwell> cfields: I think I may not be understanding what you are tring to solve here then.
 427 2013-09-12 05:55:17 <gavinandresen> warren: on OSX?  Cool!  send me instructions.
 428 2013-09-12 05:55:29 <warren> oh
 429 2013-09-12 05:55:31 <cfields> gmaxwell: i'd like for the builds that devs use every day to be somewhat representative of what a user will see
 430 2013-09-12 05:55:43 <gavinandresen> cfields: they are
 431 2013-09-12 05:56:01 <gavinandresen> cfields: modulo weird i386/x_64 bugs that never actually happen in practice
 432 2013-09-12 05:56:29 <warren> cfields: can we please have deterministic cross compile mac before we worry about this?  currently very few of the devs can build for mac
 433 2013-09-12 05:56:42 ThomasV has joined
 434 2013-09-12 05:56:56 <gmaxwell> s/never actually happen/never actually happen for us/  (there are other development teams that can't seem to resist steping on 64 bit bugs due to being heedless of type safty… not like we'd ever make a type safty bug. :P )
 435 2013-09-12 05:57:02 <gavinandresen> Yes, by the time we get deterministic cross-compiled mac builds it will probably be time to drop 32-bit support entirely
 436 2013-09-12 05:57:37 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: honestly
 437 2013-09-12 05:57:39 <Diablo-D3> I'd drop it now
 438 2013-09-12 05:58:00 <Diablo-D3> seeing as now all the important OSes and archs support 64 bit
 439 2013-09-12 05:58:07 <Diablo-D3> theres no reason to ever ship 32 bit software ever again
 440 2013-09-12 05:58:12 <cfields> i'm clearly outnumbered here, but I find that strange
 441 2013-09-12 05:59:14 <gavinandresen> more developers contributing is higher priority than "might theoretically prevent bugs"
 442 2013-09-12 05:59:14 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: yeah, but most magfags have quit using 32-bit-only macs
 443 2013-09-12 05:59:15 <Diablo-D3> because 10.8 wont run on them
 444 2013-09-12 05:59:27 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: anything thats core 1 isnt 64 bit
 445 2013-09-12 05:59:32 <Diablo-D3> anything core 2 or later is
 446 2013-09-12 05:59:34 <gavinandresen> (because more developers contributing helps find and fix more bugs)
 447 2013-09-12 05:59:42 <Diablo-D3> and core 2 is, what, 6 years old now? 7?
 448 2013-09-12 05:59:55 <gmaxwell> cfields: I think we think the things you want are only fully answered by "we must test the determinstic builds"  a build which is kinda like the one the user uses, but isn't the same, isn't good enough. ... and given that we're not solving that problem we'd rather not complicate building.
 449 2013-09-12 06:00:22 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: have you done chunked analysis on the binaries?
 450 2013-09-12 06:00:37 <warren> Diablo-D3: err, not all Core 2 was 64bit
 451 2013-09-12 06:00:44 <Diablo-D3> warren: all core 2 macs are
 452 2013-09-12 06:00:50 <cfields> gmaxwell: i'm not asking for devs to be using deterministic builds...
 453 2013-09-12 06:00:57 <gmaxwell> cfields: Exactly. :P
 454 2013-09-12 06:00:58 <warren> can't mac binaries be fat?
 455 2013-09-12 06:01:03 <Diablo-D3> warren: all the core 2s that cant do 64 bit are effectively broken, but intel sold them anyhow
 456 2013-09-12 06:01:04 <cfields> gmaxwell: sec, let me quote myself (cause i'm fancy like that)
 457 2013-09-12 06:01:13 <Diablo-D3> warren: no, mac doesnt do fat binaries like that
 458 2013-09-12 06:01:18 <warren> oh
 459 2013-09-12 06:01:26 <cfields> the release binary will be completely different (read: different compiler, min sdk, target sdk, and architecture)
 460 2013-09-12 06:01:27 <Diablo-D3> warren: it does that weird ass universal crap, but thats for side by side ppc and x86
 461 2013-09-12 06:01:38 <Diablo-D3> warren: ia32 and amd64 side by side
 462 2013-09-12 06:01:49 <cfields> Diablo-D3: hmm? you can do fat 32/64 builds no problem
 463 2013-09-12 06:01:51 <Diablo-D3> warren: er, not those
 464 2013-09-12 06:01:53 <cfields> i have a fat bitcoin around somewhere
 465 2013-09-12 06:01:56 <Diablo-D3> cfields: since when/
 466 2013-09-12 06:02:03 <Diablo-D3> last time I noticed no one could get clang to do it
 467 2013-09-12 06:02:03 <gmaxwell> cfields: You're asking them to do something which not as good for mimicing the user expirence as a deterministic build,  but which still requires build time consessions. It has (say) half the cost, but half the benefit.  It also reduces the _inconsistency_ benefit during development.
 468 2013-09-12 06:02:07 <gavinandresen> those differences are the least of our worries.  Dependency versions are a lot more likely to cause problems
 469 2013-09-12 06:02:27 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: yeah, but to make THAT easy you should just depend on brew
 470 2013-09-12 06:02:42 <cfields> ok ok, i surrender
 471 2013-09-12 06:02:53 <cfields> still don't agree by any stretch, but i'll drop it
 472 2013-09-12 06:03:09 <gmaxwell> cfields: I mean, I should shuttup, I don't build on OSX, but ... you and gavin are basically the only people I know who do.
 473 2013-09-12 06:03:17 <warren> fat deterministic cross-compiled mac builds would be AWESOME
 474 2013-09-12 06:04:02 <Diablo-D3> macs having a sane build system in general would be awesome
 475 2013-09-12 06:04:42 <gavinandresen> I suspect jgarzik might compile on OSX sometimes, but won't admit it.
 476 2013-09-12 06:05:06 elevatioN has joined
 477 2013-09-12 06:05:13 <cfields> Diablo-D3: i was going to dive in and make us a universal dependencies buildsystem. but it sounds as though it solves a problem that's not a high priority relative to the work it'd entail
 478 2013-09-12 06:05:32 <Diablo-D3> cfields: you'd make friends doing it
 479 2013-09-12 06:05:37 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 480 2013-09-12 06:06:02 <cfields> Diablo-D3: i've already done it once, and it was wildly successful
 481 2013-09-12 06:06:05 <cfields> https://github.com/xbmc/xbmc/tree/master/tools/depends
 482 2013-09-12 06:06:30 <Diablo-D3> lol xbmc
 483 2013-09-12 06:06:37 meLon has joined
 484 2013-09-12 06:07:15 <warren> Diablo-D3: don't tease, he's saving our collective asses
 485 2013-09-12 06:07:20 <cfields> Diablo-D3: i'm one of the main devs
 486 2013-09-12 06:07:44 <cfields> just thought i'd throw that out there in case you had one in the chamber :)
 487 2013-09-12 06:07:54 * Diablo-D3 holds up his Roku like one would hold up a cross to a vampire
 488 2013-09-12 06:08:07 <cfields> eww
 489 2013-09-12 06:09:03 <gmaxwell> cfields: Feel free to ignore Diablo-D3 at will.
 490 2013-09-12 06:09:59 winterblack has joined
 491 2013-09-12 06:10:12 <cfields> heh
 492 2013-09-12 06:10:34 PrimeStunna_ has joined
 493 2013-09-12 06:10:47 <cfields> well, i'm not even sure what the argument is now. but i know i'm surely not winning :p
 494 2013-09-12 06:11:12 <cfields> but here's the thing
 495 2013-09-12 06:12:38 <warren> cfields: deterministic cross compile mac builds has been a strong desire for a while, and the community should collectively reward whatever dev who actually makes it possible.
 496 2013-09-12 06:12:40 <cfields> my experience lies with making this kind of development easier for devs, and more predictable for end users. but my priorities don't seem to match up with the other devs here
 497 2013-09-12 06:12:53 <warren> that is a priority.  what you are talking about sounds nice to have for later.
 498 2013-09-12 06:12:56 <cfields> so i guess i'm going about it wrong. so how's this:
 499 2013-09-12 06:13:32 nethershaw has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 500 2013-09-12 06:14:00 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell doesnt get my humor
 501 2013-09-12 06:14:01 elevatioN has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 502 2013-09-12 06:14:02 paracyst has quit ()
 503 2013-09-12 06:14:02 <Diablo-D3> cfields: just think, you might get bitcoins for this
 504 2013-09-12 06:14:18 PrimeStunna has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 505 2013-09-12 06:14:18 PrimeStunna_ is now known as PrimeStunna
 506 2013-09-12 06:14:30 <cfields> i'm offering to help make building easier and more reliable, with less dependence on third parties. what do the other devs see as priorities?
 507 2013-09-12 06:18:43 <gmaxwell> cfields: I dont think your priorties are wrong, but (1) you're talking about OSX which I've seen relatively few people building on and thus don't personally care much about the development expirence on, (2) I don't believe your "make building easier" will do so if it involves replacing their toolchains.
 508 2013-09-12 06:19:07 <gmaxwell> (3) concerned with solving a problem which is solved more completely (at somewhat higher cost) by gitian-like builds.
 509 2013-09-12 06:21:08 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 510 2013-09-12 06:21:14 <gmaxwell> So I'd rather see time spent making gitian-like building a reality for OSX and getting its cost and complexity reduced. But hey, if you're able to make other build consistency improvements that don't strike gavin as inconvient thats ducky with me too.
 511 2013-09-12 06:21:42 patcon has joined
 512 2013-09-12 06:22:29 <cfields> gmaxwell: to be clear, the buildsystem i was proposing would be universal. meaning that it's the same for all platforms
 513 2013-09-12 06:22:45 <cfields> so the osx dependency build procedure would be the same as linux, win32, etc
 514 2013-09-12 06:23:07 <cfields> which means that gitian could use it as well to be verifiably deterministic
 515 2013-09-12 06:23:33 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 516 2013-09-12 06:23:42 <gmaxwell> And would it be four hours of compiling to download and fetch the hoisted toolchain?
 517 2013-09-12 06:23:54 patcon has joined
 518 2013-09-12 06:24:21 <cfields> gmaxwell: take a look at what we build for xbmc: https://github.com/xbmc/xbmc/tree/master/tools/depends/target
 519 2013-09-12 06:24:26 <cfields> that takes about 30min
 520 2013-09-12 06:24:35 <gmaxwell> if so, thats starting to sound like a replacement for gitian, which might be fine, but please you can't pass off something that requires building a toolchain to be something _easier_ for developers.
 521 2013-09-12 06:25:15 <cfields> gmaxwell: no, it uses an existing toolchain, just sets up a cross build environment
 522 2013-09-12 06:25:22 <gmaxwell> also, we do not want to become a GNU distributor. For one, now someone who is trying to audit our code has 1000x more code to audit.
 523 2013-09-12 06:25:49 <cfields> hmm?
 524 2013-09-12 06:25:52 <gmaxwell> cfields: ugh, but then it's much of the complexity (building cross libs for all the dependency chain) without actually giving determinism. :(
 525 2013-09-12 06:27:00 <gmaxwell> cfields: part of the purpose of gitian is that more than just the determinism is reduces the number of places this team could hide backdoors.. e.g. we don't provide zlib.
 526 2013-09-12 06:31:10 <cfields> gmaxwell: sure you do, gitian's win32 deps builds it.
 527 2013-09-12 06:31:11 Polyatomic has joined
 528 2013-09-12 06:31:45 <gmaxwell> not provided or maintained by us, however.
 529 2013-09-12 06:32:11 <warren> the toolchain is provided by Ubuntu in that case
 530 2013-09-12 06:32:14 <cfields> gmaxwell: i wasn't suggesting by any means that the dependencies be hosted/maintained by us
 531 2013-09-12 06:32:56 <warren> the cross compile toolchain itself can be gitian built by a distro toolchain? =)
 532 2013-09-12 06:33:36 <gmaxwell> cfields: then we already have what you want: gitian. and it produces reproducable deterministic binaries.  Maybe it would be good to change how it works and narrow it down, so that it's not such a burden to use.. but if the result isn't determinstic binaries: I yawn.
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 534 2013-09-12 06:35:02 <cfields> gmaxwell: yes, that sounds like the logical outcome here
 535 2013-09-12 06:36:01 <gmaxwell> cfields: I would not that the recent NSA stuff has a much much wider group of people talking about determinstic binaries now, so as we speak people might be coming up with useful thoughts elsewhere.
 536 2013-09-12 06:38:01 PrimeStunna has quit (Quit: PrimeStunna)
 537 2013-09-12 06:38:38 <cfields> gmaxwell: i don't disagree by any means.
 538 2013-09-12 06:39:42 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 539 2013-09-12 06:39:59 <cfields> but i'll drop my work on an overhaul. You're correct that you already have a solution there. I'm not a fan of it, but effort would be better spent on fixing it up
 540 2013-09-12 06:42:54 <cfields> gavinandresen: would you like me to PR the change to drop hardening and switch to release, minus the osx changes? I believe you'd rather do that than pull in the -O2 change?
 541 2013-09-12 06:45:03 <gmaxwell> drop hardening?!
 542 2013-09-12 06:45:04 <gmaxwell> Fuck no.
 543 2013-09-12 06:45:27 <cfields> gmaxwell: hehe, context is everything
 544 2013-09-12 06:45:31 <cfields> drop the hardening switch
 545 2013-09-12 06:45:34 <gmaxwell> ohhh
 546 2013-09-12 06:46:18 <cfields> debug is vanilla, release is hardened, override is removed
 547 2013-09-12 06:46:45 <gmaxwell> Why would you remove hardening from debug builds? I don't believe I've ever had it interfear with debugging.
 548 2013-09-12 06:47:19 <cfields> gmaxwell: entire context: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2988
 549 2013-09-12 06:47:21 <gmaxwell> Oh the string protection warnings that need value analysis? Just make the debug builds O1 unless someone has recently done some debugging that needed O0 instead of O1?
 550 2013-09-12 06:47:30 <warren> some strange happened with my gitian build of 0.8.5
 551 2013-09-12 06:47:36 <gmaxwell> I have it on my screen it wasn't clear to me from your context?
 552 2013-09-12 06:48:29 <gmaxwell> cfields: I vaguely think what we want is to remove the hardening switch (uh, maybe it stays as a --disable?) release builds by default. Debug builds are O1.
 553 2013-09-12 06:48:40 <gmaxwell> warren: How informative! :P
 554 2013-09-12 06:48:43 <warren> 0.8.5/wtogami/bitcoin-build.assert somehow ended up identical to 0.8.5-win32/wtogami/bitcoin-build.assert
 555 2013-09-12 06:48:48 <warren> both containing win32
 556 2013-09-12 06:49:01 * warren tries again
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 559 2013-09-12 06:51:22 <gavinandresen> out for a while.  gmaxwell: debug builds with -O1 violates principle of least surprise (I'd expect no optimizations, maximum ability to debug)
 560 2013-09-12 06:51:24 <cfields> gmaxwell: please chime in on that PR. ultimately a decision is going to have to be made.
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 562 2013-09-12 06:52:01 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: okay, fine enough then.
 563 2013-09-12 06:52:20 <warren> gavinandresen: debug would then be -O0 with hardening disabled
 564 2013-09-12 06:52:36 <gmaxwell> warren: what? NO!
 565 2013-09-12 06:52:43 <gmaxwell> stop fucking asking to disable hardening.
 566 2013-09-12 06:52:51 <warren> gmaxwell: I didn't
 567 2013-09-12 06:52:58 <warren> gmaxwell: you need at least -O1 for hardening to work
 568 2013-09-12 06:53:37 <gmaxwell> NO. You do not. You need O1 for printf validation and compile time strcpy checking which is just one little thing.
 569 2013-09-12 06:54:15 <warren> err, you're right, I need more sleep.
 570 2013-09-12 06:55:04 <gmaxwell> It's fine. I would personally prefer O1 for debug because there is a huge performance difference esp when run in valgrind, but that preference ended the moment anyone expressed the view that they'd find it surprising.
 571 2013-09-12 06:55:36 <gmaxwell> we shouldn't go make debug builds having entirely different build options except to the extent that it fixes problems debugging.
 572 2013-09-12 06:55:58 <gmaxwell> I don't want some hardening exposed heisenbug going away in debug builds to whatever extent it can be avoided.
 573 2013-09-12 06:56:04 root2 has joined
 574 2013-09-12 06:56:20 <warren> I personally think debug builds should have configurable -O.  devs shoudln't be surprised by any optimization.
 575 2013-09-12 06:56:38 <cfields> warren: you can override with anything you want
 576 2013-09-12 06:56:39 <gmaxwell> warren: cflags should be able to override them.
 577 2013-09-12 06:56:39 <warren> entire distros are built with -O2 -andlotsofothershit
 578 2013-09-12 06:56:53 <cfields> ./configure CXXFLAGS="-Orice"
 579 2013-09-12 06:57:20 <gmaxwell> what are you going on about we're talking about an explicit debug build this is common and usual for software packages, because normal O2 optimizations obscure information in the debugger.
 580 2013-09-12 06:57:39 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 581 2013-09-12 06:57:45 <warren> what might be nice is a way to strip the gitian builds into an optional download debuginfo.  Dunno if other distros does this, but all debuginfo is available in separate packages and can be loaded on the side by gdb to debug any distro package.
 582 2013-09-12 06:57:57 <gmaxwell> This isn't a speculative issue, this is an issue you will encounter virtually every time you run the software in a debugger.
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 584 2013-09-12 06:58:12 <gmaxwell> warren: yes, we should do that. but thats entirely orthorgonal to a debug build.
 585 2013-09-12 06:58:17 <warren> right
 586 2013-09-12 06:58:28 <gmaxwell> The whole purpose of a debug build is to turn of the build options that screw up running under gdb.
 587 2013-09-12 06:59:00 Zoo has joined
 588 2013-09-12 06:59:00 <cfields> gmaxwell: was that aimed at me? if so, i was only pointing out to warren how to override whatever defaults we pick
 589 2013-09-12 06:59:15 <gmaxwell> cfields: no, it was aimed at warren
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 591 2013-09-12 07:01:44 <cfields> ok, i'm off as well
 592 2013-09-12 07:02:04 <cfields> thanks gmaxwell and gavinandresen for the rational debates
 593 2013-09-12 07:02:12 <gmaxwell> cfields: I commented on that pull req.
 594 2013-09-12 07:04:20 <cfields> gmaxwell: just for the record, i was doing my best to segregate the osx issue as i assumed it would be contentious. i really don't like mixing bugfixes with policy changes
 595 2013-09-12 07:04:50 johnsofttt has joined
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 597 2013-09-12 07:05:47 <gmaxwell> cfields: No problem.
 598 2013-09-12 07:05:54 CodesInChaos_ has joined
 599 2013-09-12 07:06:34 <cfields> thanks again
 600 2013-09-12 07:06:35 <cfields> nnite
 601 2013-09-12 07:06:40 <gmaxwell> warren: sorry for barking you, I have to say that I find talking about build system twizzling is about the least rewarding stuff to discuss ever, so I have a low tolerance for tangents on it. :P
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 606 2013-09-12 07:13:21 <warren> gmaxwell: I was wrong about the FORTIFY_SOURCE thing, it's been years since I've looked at what it actually does.
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 609 2013-09-12 07:16:11 <SomeoneWeird> https://github.com/JaviSoto/iOS7-Runtime-Headers/commit/6ccf9c4526992fec0dc414d48e4a3f7446e9822f#L10L60
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 716 2013-09-12 09:12:15 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|I won't be able to get to my Ubuntu machine to gbuild 0.8.5 for at least 12, maybe more like 24 hours... Is that still useful?
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 734 2013-09-12 09:42:17 Namworld is now known as Namworld_away
 735 2013-09-12 09:48:35 <phantomcircuit> 7600e7fc (Jeff Garzik              2012-08-21 02:21:33 -0400 298)     map<uint256, int64_t> setTxIndex;
 736 2013-09-12 09:48:40 <phantomcircuit> lol
 737 2013-09-12 09:48:43 Micha has quit (iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Killed (cameron.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
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 743 2013-09-12 09:53:19 <sipa> ?
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 745 2013-09-12 09:55:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's a map
 746 2013-09-12 09:55:03 Micha has quit (iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Killed (pratchett.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
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 748 2013-09-12 10:01:43 <sipa> ah!
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 753 2013-09-12 10:03:43 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm?
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 756 2013-09-12 10:04:55 <sipa> it's called set
 757 2013-09-12 10:06:05 * Micha iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|uspects he missed something
 758 2013-09-12 10:06:25 * Micha iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|checks the logs
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 766 2013-09-12 10:16:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is it just more or should the version field for transactions not have been interpreted as signed in the first place?
 767 2013-09-12 10:17:01 <phantomcircuit> ah i see it's an int
 768 2013-09-12 10:17:24 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is there anything that relies on it being an int? possibly we should change it to unsigned before anything starts to actually use it
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 770 2013-09-12 10:18:44 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i think it should just become unsigned
 771 2013-09-12 10:18:50 <sipa> and serialized as such
 772 2013-09-12 10:19:05 <sipa> but i need to double check whether nothing depends on a negative number
 773 2013-09-12 10:19:28 <sipa> like using -1 for uninitialized/invalid
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 776 2013-09-12 10:24:11 <phantomcircuit> sipa, hopefully nothing does...
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 780 2013-09-12 10:27:30 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|I won't be able to get to my Ubuntu machine to gbuild 0.8.5 for at least 12, maybe more like 24 hours... Is that still useful?
 781 2013-09-12 10:29:03 <warren> Micha|iPhone: my team has five people capable of gitian sigs sooner
 782 2013-09-12 10:29:14 <swulf--> I'm trying to envision a strategy for doing off-chain peer-to-peer bitcoin payments, but I'm coming up short. Am I wasting my time? Is it even possible?
 783 2013-09-12 10:32:05 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|What is /doc/Doxyfile?
 784 2013-09-12 10:38:21 <sipa> Micha|iPhone: doxygen config, i believe
 785 2013-09-12 10:38:55 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|I ask because it seems it has a version nimber of 0.5.0
 786 2013-09-12 10:39:35 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Should be either updated or removed (is doxygen still used?)
 787 2013-09-12 10:39:51 <sipa> hardly
 788 2013-09-12 10:40:02 <sipa> i don't think it ever was used much
 789 2013-09-12 10:40:18 <sipa> but maybe wumpus still maintains a website with code documentation
 790 2013-09-12 10:45:46 <wumpus> yes, I do
 791 2013-09-12 10:45:56 <c0rw1n> swulf-- it's possible, but the system that does the offchain transaction has to be Trusted (TM) which is Bad (TM)
 792 2013-09-12 10:46:05 <wumpus> feel free to update the version number (or make it auto update) but if you remove it I get angry :)
 793 2013-09-12 10:46:39 <wumpus> https://dev.visucore.com/bitcoin/doxygen/
 794 2013-09-12 10:47:21 <swulf--> c0rw1n: but there is a mathematical provable way to do trustless peer to peer offchain transactions?
 795 2013-09-12 10:47:36 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 796 2013-09-12 10:47:56 <wumpus> trustless offchain transactions, that'd be nice, you'd almost not need a blockchain anymore
 797 2013-09-12 10:48:14 <c0rw1n> swulf--: I think I remember there exists guaranteed cross-chain atomic transactions
 798 2013-09-12 10:48:15 <sipa> swulf--: i really doubt that
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 801 2013-09-12 10:48:32 <swulf--> well, suppose Alice and Bob both are full nodes. is there any way to transfer coin between the two without hitting the blockchain and without a third party?
 802 2013-09-12 10:48:42 <sipa> i don't think atomic transactions between unrelated chains are possible
 803 2013-09-12 10:49:09 <sipa> swulf--: by coins do you mean bitcoins, or some future hypothetical uber cryptocurrency?
 804 2013-09-12 10:49:24 <swulf--> Or how about, Alice wants to pay Bob, both are full nodes, is it possible for Alice to give bob the transaction at and the same time provably destroy the private key to which the coins are coming from?
 805 2013-09-12 10:49:26 <swulf--> sipa: bitcoins :)
 806 2013-09-12 10:49:42 <sipa> swulf--: impossible, afaict
 807 2013-09-12 10:49:52 <c0rw1n> swulf--: the one problem with that is the "destroy the privkey" part
 808 2013-09-12 10:49:57 <swulf--> yeah, I know
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 810 2013-09-12 10:50:41 <swulf--> wonder if a pay to script is possible by sharing the script with Bob, so that bob can form the transaction and broadcast it?
 811 2013-09-12 10:50:58 <c0rw1n> oh yes, but with a multikey exchange
 812 2013-09-12 10:51:03 <c0rw1n> argh
 813 2013-09-12 10:51:05 <c0rw1n> multisig
 814 2013-09-12 10:51:10 <swulf--> yeah
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 816 2013-09-12 10:51:28 <c0rw1n> that shit is fucking psychedelic
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 818 2013-09-12 10:51:49 <swulf--> before going out, Alice pays herself to a script address. once meeting up with Bob, she gives bob the script necessary to spend the output and a change address. Bob broadcasts the transaction and sends the txid to alice.
 819 2013-09-12 10:51:50 <swulf--> would this work?
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 821 2013-09-12 10:52:24 <c0rw1n> not sure how you ensure that bob sends the txid back
 822 2013-09-12 10:52:39 <c0rw1n> nlocktime?
 823 2013-09-12 10:52:44 <c0rw1n> inner transaction?
 824 2013-09-12 10:52:45 <swulf--> damn. you'd still have to wait for confirmations to avoid double-spends
 825 2013-09-12 10:52:49 <swulf--> could use that?
 826 2013-09-12 10:53:13 <c0rw1n> i don't know enough how it works exactly
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 829 2013-09-12 10:59:55 <sipa> swulf--: do you know, fundamentally, why the blockchain is necessary?
 830 2013-09-12 11:00:20 <swulf--> sure, at least, I think so :)
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 832 2013-09-12 11:01:15 <swulf--> what I'm particularly curious about is whether there's a strategy such that Bob can broadcast a transaction that he KNOWS has a very high probability of being included in a block so that he doesn't have to wait for confirmations in order to accept a payment from alice
 833 2013-09-12 11:01:33 <c0rw1n> sure. high fee.
 834 2013-09-12 11:01:53 <c0rw1n> it's a bid for inclusion in the next block, so a high bid is sure to be mined asap.
 835 2013-09-12 11:03:10 <swulf--> but i also need to be certain alice won't broadcast something else in an attempt to spend the input before bob's transaction is confirmed
 836 2013-09-12 11:03:39 <swulf--> its quite likely this isn't possible
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 841 2013-09-12 11:08:49 <sipa> swulf--: can you tell me? :)
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 846 2013-09-12 11:11:32 <swulf--> errr my best guess: it's the deciding factor, the authority, on what addresses "own" how many bitcoins.  or rather, it's a list of all unspent (and spent, tho those aren't *as* important) coins.
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 848 2013-09-12 11:12:27 <sipa> close enough - you're really describing the UTXO set, which is sort of the result of "history", while the blockhain is the history itself
 849 2013-09-12 11:12:47 <swulf--> right
 850 2013-09-12 11:12:49 <sipa> but the reason the blockchain is necessary at all, is just because of one reason: to prevent double spends
 851 2013-09-12 11:12:54 <swulf--> sounds good. your words are better:)
 852 2013-09-12 11:13:25 <sipa> nodes do not always agree about the past timeline, but within each timeline itself, no double spends are possible because of it
 853 2013-09-12 11:14:09 <sipa> it's a roundabout way to avoid the fundamental problem that you cannot have a globally consistent database without knowing all participants
 854 2013-09-12 11:14:24 <swulf--> sure, but there are other ways of transferring bitcoins without the blockchain between individuals
 855 2013-09-12 11:14:30 <swulf--> for example, giving the private key to someone else
 856 2013-09-12 11:14:36 <sipa> right
 857 2013-09-12 11:14:45 <swulf--> the problem with just giving the private key away is of course "forgetting" it on giver side
 858 2013-09-12 11:14:56 <sipa> but that's just changing the mapping of addresses to humans
 859 2013-09-12 11:15:07 <swulf--> which is my main though process right now
 860 2013-09-12 11:15:42 <swulf--> how can i get two humans to transfer coins between eachother without confirmations and without a thirdparty?
 861 2013-09-12 11:16:14 <sipa> by giving a transaction
 862 2013-09-12 11:16:27 <sipa> but you can't guarantee a consistent view between the two parties
 863 2013-09-12 11:16:36 <sipa> so you can't prevent double spending that way
 864 2013-09-12 11:16:50 <swulf--> you can have a high probability of similar views, especially if the coins in question are deep in the chain
 865 2013-09-12 11:16:52 <sipa> and if you continue that reasoning, you'll end up with a second blockchain to fix it :)
 866 2013-09-12 11:17:06 <sipa> high probability may be true in the average case
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 868 2013-09-12 11:17:24 <sipa> but it won't be true when there's an arbitrarily high amount to win for an attacker
 869 2013-09-12 11:17:58 <swulf--> if Bob is part of the bitcoin network and has a full copy of the blockchain, Alice can lie all she wants about the coins and Bob can verify without trusting alice
 870 2013-09-12 11:18:08 <sipa> or put otherwise: the blockchain is there exactly to deal with the case where sender and receiver do not trust eachother
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 872 2013-09-12 11:18:22 <swulf--> but what about in the case where Alice trusts Bob, but Bob doesn't trust Alice
 873 2013-09-12 11:18:41 <sipa> that's what the blockchain is for
 874 2013-09-12 11:18:54 <swulf--> consider a old-time analogy: you go pay for a $14.99 item with a $20 bill, you hand $20 to the cashier and you implicitly trust the cashier to return change
 875 2013-09-12 11:19:18 <swulf--> if going down this line, is it possible to eliminate confirmation time as a vendor if you're trusted to return the change?
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 877 2013-09-12 11:20:37 <sipa> bitcoin solves this by making the change part of the transaction, and making individual transactions atomic
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 879 2013-09-12 11:21:06 <swulf--> but because alice produced the transaction, bob can't trust it until it's part of confirmed history
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 881 2013-09-12 11:21:28 <sipa> unless he already trusts alice not to double spend
 882 2013-09-12 11:21:42 <swulf--> there's that but that's not the case i'm interested in
 883 2013-09-12 11:21:45 <swulf--> i'm very curious to know if Bob could produce the transaction spending alice's coins (somehow, key exchange, or ???) so that bob can immediately trust the transaction
 884 2013-09-12 11:21:52 <swulf--> despite not trusting alice
 885 2013-09-12 11:23:04 <sipa> trust doesn't come from free
 886 2013-09-12 11:23:27 <swulf--> back to the retailer example
 887 2013-09-12 11:23:32 <swulf--> you trust the cashier to return your change all the time
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 889 2013-09-12 11:26:18 <c0rw1n> i think you could do that in a second blockchain, with an Oracle as described in the Contracts wiki page. The Oracle could be distributed and trustfree, but then what? The tx is still in a blockchain, and Alice and Bob would both need to subscribe to that one in addition to that of bitcoin
 890 2013-09-12 11:27:55 <swulf--> hmm
 891 2013-09-12 11:27:59 <swulf--> interesting! i'll give it a read...
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 893 2013-09-12 11:28:08 <swulf--> afk.  sipa: thanks for the discussion:)
 894 2013-09-12 11:28:23 <sipa> an oracle is not really trustfree
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 896 2013-09-12 11:31:30 <c0rw1n> bah run it in consensus and you're good
 897 2013-09-12 11:31:43 <c0rw1n> right? XD
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 902 2013-09-12 11:45:19 <freaksh0> hi there
 903 2013-09-12 11:45:40 <c0rw1n> hello freaksh0
 904 2013-09-12 11:45:56 <freaksh0> the network ID byte that identifies the btc address, is it a part of the crypto, or is it just prefixed onto the address ?
 905 2013-09-12 11:46:13 <freaksh0> hey c0rw1n
 906 2013-09-12 11:47:36 <sipa> itonly part of the address
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 908 2013-09-12 11:48:10 <freaksh0> ok thanks
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 916 2013-09-12 11:52:37 <sipa> there is a 4-byte network magic used in the p2p protocol too, to identify the network
 917 2013-09-12 11:52:57 <sipa> but it's not used inside cryptographic constructs either
 918 2013-09-12 11:53:45 <freaksh0> hm
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 923 2013-09-12 12:01:03 <freaksh0> sipa: is that the coed in netbase.cpp ?
 924 2013-09-12 12:01:58 <freaksh0> nevermind
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 977 2013-09-12 13:10:48 <warren> sipa: thought regarding secp256k1.  If gmp is always faster than openssl, and we want to guard against the risk of inconsistencies, shouldn't secp256k1 always use gmp and not fallback to openssl?
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 980 2013-09-12 13:13:44 <gmaxwell> warren: GMP is GPL
 981 2013-09-12 13:14:00 <warren> well, LGPL
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 987 2013-09-12 13:17:23 <Scrat> gmaxwell: can lamport sigs ever be practical? 10k pubkeys that degrade with usage sounds scary
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 989 2013-09-12 13:18:58 <gmaxwell> Scrat: they don't have to degrade with usage.
 990 2013-09-12 13:19:10 <gmaxwell> holy crap, can people please actually read my posts?
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 992 2013-09-12 13:20:50 <gmaxwell> And the "scriptPubKey" is only 256 bits.
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1013 2013-09-12 13:54:23 <sipa> warren: for within bitcoin, we should probably aim for consistency
1014 2013-09-12 13:54:51 <sipa> but the problem is that for performance, you need various code variants on different platforms
1015 2013-09-12 13:55:21 <sipa> for example, x86_64 specific assembly
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1017 2013-09-12 13:58:37 <_dr> why not?
1018 2013-09-12 13:59:07 <_dr> it's not like you need x different assembly versions for every existing platform
1019 2013-09-12 13:59:46 <_dr> most !x86_64 will suck anyways. even assembly using neon on an arm won't be any good. it'll just suck :)
1020 2013-09-12 14:00:15 <_dr> so you could have C and x86_64 assembly
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1080 2013-09-12 14:59:02 <jgarzik> mornin'
1081 2013-09-12 14:59:06 <jgarzik> how goes the 0.8.5 building?
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1086 2013-09-12 15:06:04 <TD> good morning jgarzik
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1122 2013-09-12 16:13:51 <melvster> 'Vodafone Hacker Accesses 2 Million Customers’ Banking Data '
1123 2013-09-12 16:16:57 <_ingsoc> In Germany?
1124 2013-09-12 16:18:09 <swulf--> how can I get a transaction using OP_RETURN included in the blockchain if it's considered "non-standard" ?
1125 2013-09-12 16:18:46 lordbunson has joined
1126 2013-09-12 16:18:55 <lianj> swulf--: you have to find a miner that accepts non standard ones, or try on testnet
1127 2013-09-12 16:19:19 <lianj> also op_return marks a script invalid anyway, so why use it?
1128 2013-09-12 16:20:43 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1129 2013-09-12 16:23:09 <gmaxwell> Anyone have any idea how much ram is planned on trezor hardware?
1130 2013-09-12 16:23:29 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1131 2013-09-12 16:24:21 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1132 2013-09-12 16:24:28 [\\\]_i has joined
1133 2013-09-12 16:25:38 <swulf--> lianj: to intentionally destroy coins :)
1134 2013-09-12 16:26:00 <TD> gmaxwell: 128kb
1135 2013-09-12 16:26:07 <lianj> what a great idea…
1136 2013-09-12 16:26:54 <swulf--> lianj: to be fair, any destruction of coins on my end only makes yours more valuable
1137 2013-09-12 16:28:05 <TD> the OP_RETURN patch from jgarzik was i think never merged in
1138 2013-09-12 16:28:18 <TD> gmaxwell: btw not "planned", they're close to shipping actuaklly
1139 2013-09-12 16:28:19 <gmaxwell> swulf--: eligius will take OP_RETURNs http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
1140 2013-09-12 16:28:22 <TD> so i guess the boards were already manufactured
1141 2013-09-12 16:28:40 GordonG3kko has joined
1142 2013-09-12 16:29:28 <gmaxwell> TD: Ah. The reason I was asking: the 128k is a little sad because it's not enough to be able to have it efficiently decrypt a memory-hard-KDFed encrypted master key.
1143 2013-09-12 16:29:35 iddo has quit (Changing host)
1144 2013-09-12 16:29:35 iddo has joined
1145 2013-09-12 16:30:07 <gmaxwell> (128k of scrypt is not really memory hard because of computation memory tradeoffs you can profitably make when you have that little amount of state)
1146 2013-09-12 16:30:15 <TD> i imagine that future devices will be less constrained. given the extremely high cost of the initial units, i am assuming the actual electronics cost is much lower and they're using the premiums to pay off the development costs
1147 2013-09-12 16:30:25 <gmaxwell> indeed.
1148 2013-09-12 16:30:48 <TD> but given it's secure hardware, i'd hope it isn't necessary to use scrypt and friends
1149 2013-09-12 16:30:57 <gmaxwell> there is a proposed BIP for an encryption / encoding scheme for BIP32 master private keys.
1150 2013-09-12 16:31:16 <gmaxwell> TD: well the idea there would be to have a master private key backup that was password protected.
1151 2013-09-12 16:31:17 Plinker_ has joined
1152 2013-09-12 16:31:27 <gmaxwell> Which would be external to the device, since its a backup. :P
1153 2013-09-12 16:32:49 Gnaf has joined
1154 2013-09-12 16:33:16 Gnaf has quit (Changing host)
1155 2013-09-12 16:33:16 Gnaf has joined
1156 2013-09-12 16:33:23 <swulf--> gmaxwell: cool!
1157 2013-09-12 16:34:03 <gmaxwell> I'm dubious about the value of password protection, even with a strong memory hard KDF, once balanced against loss risk... just split up the value if you're worried about theft. .. but some people like it. Oh well. no biggie, future hardware will be cooler.
1158 2013-09-12 16:34:08 <TD> gmaxwell: i imagine most users will prefer to write down unencrypted keys and keep them in a safe place, protected (if necessary) by something that's not a password.
1159 2013-09-12 16:34:26 <gmaxwell> TD: I agree with you.
1160 2013-09-12 16:34:29 <TD> but sure, i can see some users would want it to be exported in strongly encrypted form. however as the device has no keyboard, you'd have to trust the computer anyway
1161 2013-09-12 16:34:38 moar has joined
1162 2013-09-12 16:34:55 <TD> yeah
1163 2013-09-12 16:35:04 <gmaxwell> TD: it can export via its screen, import is the hard part to make safe. :)
1164 2013-09-12 16:35:09 <TD> anyway, i think trezor rocks as it is - the team have struck the right balance of features and shippability, im
1165 2013-09-12 16:35:11 <TD> imo
1166 2013-09-12 16:35:25 <TD> given the bitcoin community routinely sees hardware shipping disasters, i'm looking forward to receiving my trezor on time (touch wood)
1167 2013-09-12 16:35:43 <TD> right .... perhaps a future version will support having keyboards plugged in directly via usb :)
1168 2013-09-12 16:35:52 <gmaxwell> yea, I'm not knocking it for sure. Was just seeing if I needed to suggest a consession for the bip.
1169 2013-09-12 16:36:02 <gmaxwell> oh what a neat idea.. host mode support on the usb.
1170 2013-09-12 16:36:04 moarrr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1171 2013-09-12 16:36:32 <gmaxwell> but errk an attack vector too, if it picks up some big HID driver. :P (it's pretty easy to crash systems from usb...)
1172 2013-09-12 16:37:07 <TD> yeah, an entire USB host stack is probably adding a large amount to the attack surface. trustzone might help
1173 2013-09-12 16:37:13 moar has left ()
1174 2013-09-12 16:37:21 <TD> i want to get a chance to play with Qubes at some point
1175 2013-09-12 16:37:26 <TD> now there's an OS for the discerning bitcoiner!
1176 2013-09-12 16:37:56 <Belxjander> How much is a Trezor... and will any BitCoin USB devices have a singular "BTC-Mining" access specification for each company selling such devices?
1177 2013-09-12 16:38:01 <gmaxwell> (For anyone that cares, here is that proposed BIP or encrypted master keys: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258678.0 )
1178 2013-09-12 16:38:06 <TD> it's either 1 BTC or 3 BTC depending on the case
1179 2013-09-12 16:38:25 <gmaxwell> '"BTC-Mining" access specification' huh?
1180 2013-09-12 16:39:39 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: well It was just an idea that I had right now... if all the devices from the same manufacturer would follow a basic spec for USB access? would they be able to NDA such a spec for someone to write their own "access driver" to attach the device to a different OS host computer?
1181 2013-09-12 16:40:28 <gmaxwell> I'm still not decoding you.
1182 2013-09-12 16:41:46 tiberiusiv has joined
1183 2013-09-12 16:42:15 <Belxjander> okay... right now the Trezor was mentioned...
1184 2013-09-12 16:42:26 <Belxjander> are there any other "device"s from the same company?
1185 2013-09-12 16:42:36 <gmaxwell> Not yet.
1186 2013-09-12 16:42:55 <Belxjander> Which "Hardware Miner" company has more than 1 device on sale?
1187 2013-09-12 16:43:07 <gmaxwell> Trezor is not a mining device.
1188 2013-09-12 16:43:16 <Belxjander> then what is it?
1189 2013-09-12 16:44:26 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: a hardware ecdsa signing device.
1190 2013-09-12 16:44:32 <gmaxwell> (for use as a wallet)
1191 2013-09-12 16:44:46 <gmaxwell> to make it possible to safely use and spend bitcoin on a compromised computer.
1192 2013-09-12 16:45:33 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1193 2013-09-12 16:45:38 <Belxjander> ooh right
1194 2013-09-12 16:45:40 <TD> Belxjander: their website is informative
1195 2013-09-12 16:45:56 patcon has joined
1196 2013-09-12 16:46:03 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1197 2013-09-12 16:46:42 <lianj> i haven't looked into it so sorry for this stupid question. but if it only signs, how does it know it signs the thing you want and not something tempered with?
1198 2013-09-12 16:47:06 sacrelege has joined
1199 2013-09-12 16:47:21 <gmaxwell> lianj: it has a screen and it asks you to confirm.
1200 2013-09-12 16:47:23 <lianj> prolly the confirmation screen, but how does it get the values to show there, does it calc it themself
1201 2013-09-12 16:47:36 <gmaxwell> (actually gives you a challenge code which you then send in via the computer, IIRC)
1202 2013-09-12 16:48:18 <gmaxwell> lianj: if the computer sends it the whole transaction (ugh and the input transactions) then it can happily verify for itself.
1203 2013-09-12 16:48:33 <swulf--> gmaxwell: I was thinking about trying to implement some pre-paid micropayment transactions, but it's particularly frustrating the non-standard transactions aren't relayed or accepted by most mining pools :(
1204 2013-09-12 16:48:54 <lianj> ok, so it knows and handles the whole tx and inputs inputs its redeeming and doesn't just sign off on a signature hash
1205 2013-09-12 16:49:03 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1206 2013-09-12 16:49:16 <TD> "prepaid micropayment transactions"?
1207 2013-09-12 16:49:23 <TD> swulf--: you want to develop on testnet anyway (or regtest mode)
1208 2013-09-12 16:49:33 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: sorry for the delay, gitian sigs pushed (3 total now)
1209 2013-09-12 16:49:45 <gmaxwell> swulf--: sure, but transactions which break the network or flood our database are also particularly frustrating. Eligius is pretty agressive at updating its policy, and will allow any reasonably sane transaction form with short notice. You can test on testnet first too.
1210 2013-09-12 16:49:58 <swulf--> TD: it would still be confined to testnet no matter how well it was working..:(
1211 2013-09-12 16:50:12 <TD> if it worked and was useful, it should be easy to get the forms you need whitelisted
1212 2013-09-12 16:50:14 <TD> or "easy-ish"
1213 2013-09-12 16:50:26 <TD> i think the only reason the OP_RETURN change from jeff hasn't gone in yet is lack of obvious application
1214 2013-09-12 16:50:29 <gmaxwell> swulf--: sure and then you crop up and ask to get stuff whitelisted.
1215 2013-09-12 16:50:41 <swulf--> hmmm
1216 2013-09-12 16:50:50 <TD> this is also a chance for a sanity check by the community
1217 2013-09-12 16:50:54 <gmaxwell> TD: no, not the /only/ reason: it's also waiting for us to get OP_RETURNS out of the UTXO set.
1218 2013-09-12 16:50:57 <lianj> but 'destroying coins' doesn't seem like a good application :D
1219 2013-09-12 16:51:01 <TD> e.g. are you familiar with the work I did on micropayemnts?
1220 2013-09-12 16:51:10 <TD> gmaxwell: oh, i thought that went in already
1221 2013-09-12 16:51:10 <gmaxwell> lianj: sounds like a great one to me.
1222 2013-09-12 16:51:12 * TD lost track
1223 2013-09-12 16:51:32 <lianj> gmaxwell: serious?
1224 2013-09-12 16:51:43 <swulf--> would a patch that makes the non-standard forms for relaying more dynamic (user selectable, programmable, etc) be something you devs would be interested in?
1225 2013-09-12 16:51:54 <gmaxwell> TD: no, the pull is there. The ... annoying thing is that it makes the utxo inconsistent between different nodes, which means the gettxoutset signature hash will differ and we can't then use it as a sanity check of correcness.
1226 2013-09-12 16:52:05 <gmaxwell> lianj: yea. A great one for other people to engage in!
1227 2013-09-12 16:52:17 <gmaxwell> swulf--: absolutely not.
1228 2013-09-12 16:52:18 <TD> swulf--: seems over complicated.
1229 2013-09-12 16:52:31 <TD> swulf--: whitelisting tx types isn't that hard.
1230 2013-09-12 16:52:46 <lianj> gmaxwell: well, it least those were trackable then if its a tx type oO
1231 2013-09-12 16:52:51 <lianj> *script tx
1232 2013-09-12 16:52:58 <lianj> meh *script type
1233 2013-09-12 16:53:11 <swulf--> TD: from looking at the code, the tx types seems to be hard-coded.. how is it whitelisted without modifying code + a new release?
1234 2013-09-12 16:53:27 <gmaxwell> lianj: OP_RETURNS also won't bloat up the UTXO database.. much better than sending coins to an unspendable scriptPubKey.
1235 2013-09-12 16:53:39 <TD> you modify code+new release
1236 2013-09-12 16:53:46 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: really, you should have others here review your proposal before trying to use it on mainnet anyway; same process as whitelisting basically
1237 2013-09-12 16:53:52 <TD> that way what you're doing gets reviewed
1238 2013-09-12 16:54:26 <swulf--> right
1239 2013-09-12 16:54:32 <gmaxwell> Realistically any usage will have a long timespan between first proof of viablity and being production-usable in any case. And lack of whitelisting can be handled during that time with the coperation of some miners.
1240 2013-09-12 16:55:29 <gmaxwell> Eligius has been mining OP_RETURNs for me that I've been using to clean up the UTXO set (I've been sweeping up spendable-by-anyone UTXOs) for a couple weeks now.
1241 2013-09-12 16:55:37 <swulf--> gmaxwell: it seems to me that the point of the scripting system was to allow unknown uses appear spontaneously rather than waiting on the bitcoind/Bitcoin-Qt dev approval process
1242 2013-09-12 16:55:50 <swulf--> cool
1243 2013-09-12 16:56:14 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: without the scripting system, they couldn't appear *even with* the dev approval process
1244 2013-09-12 16:56:26 <swulf--> agreed
1245 2013-09-12 16:56:28 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: and it's not "approval" you're seeking here, it's review
1246 2013-09-12 16:56:30 <TD> the first bitcoin version didn't have whitelisting
1247 2013-09-12 16:56:34 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1248 2013-09-12 16:56:35 <gmaxwell> swulf--: in the long term, sure. In the short term... there is risk with weird transaction types.
1249 2013-09-12 16:56:37 <TD> it caused a lot of problems, so satoshi introduced it
1250 2013-09-12 16:56:54 <TD> in the end it hasn't been such a terrible thing. it turns out most stuff people want to do doesn't require exotic scripts
1251 2013-09-12 16:57:00 patcon has joined
1252 2013-09-12 16:57:04 <TD> and the hard part of making these apps is not the whitelisting
1253 2013-09-12 16:57:08 <gmaxwell> And also excessive permissiveness breaks forward extensibility.
1254 2013-09-12 16:57:31 <gmaxwell> There is a _ton_ of functionality which is already possible and IsStandard which is just not being used.
1255 2013-09-12 16:57:36 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1256 2013-09-12 16:57:53 <swulf--> Hmmm
1257 2013-09-12 16:58:04 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1258 2013-09-12 16:58:15 patcon has joined
1259 2013-09-12 16:58:21 <gmaxwell> You can't even send to multisignature escrows from many popular wallet applications. :(
1260 2013-09-12 16:58:34 * Luke-Jr also notes that anything P2SH (as anything new really should be) doesn't put a burden on the sender anyway
1261 2013-09-12 16:58:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: what? really? -.-
1262 2013-09-12 17:00:19 <jgarzik> indeed :(
1263 2013-09-12 17:00:28 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea,  blockchain.info, and android wallet cannot. I'm not sure about multibit, I don't think it can either but I haven't tried it and no one has told me it can't.
1264 2013-09-12 17:00:35 <TD> bitcoinj doesn't support P2SH.
1265 2013-09-12 17:00:40 <jgarzik> BitPay is putting work into multisig P2SH
1266 2013-09-12 17:00:41 GordonG3kko has joined
1267 2013-09-12 17:00:42 <TD> i mean it can validate them in fully validating mode
1268 2013-09-12 17:00:43 <jgarzik> for wide deployment
1269 2013-09-12 17:00:57 Julius129 has joined
1270 2013-09-12 17:01:02 <jgarzik> TD, that wants fixing :)
1271 2013-09-12 17:01:06 <gmaxwell> TD: thats the hardest part! why doesn't it have the easy part?
1272 2013-09-12 17:01:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ugh
1273 2013-09-12 17:01:27 cypherdoc has joined
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1277 2013-09-12 17:01:29 cypherdoc has joined
1278 2013-09-12 17:01:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I wonder if someone should make a certification process for bitcoin wallets that require support for some things
1279 2013-09-12 17:01:43 <TD> because i can count the number of people who care about p2sh on the fingers of one hand. it's not an end user facing feature, simple as that.
1280 2013-09-12 17:02:02 <gmaxwell> TD: you are fucking up _other_ people's ability to use it.
1281 2013-09-12 17:02:12 <jgarzik> TD, see what I just wrote
1282 2013-09-12 17:02:16 <jgarzik> TD, it will be, RSN
1283 2013-09-12 17:02:27 normanrichards has quit ()
1284 2013-09-12 17:02:36 <gmaxwell> I can't use multisignature to secure a wallet, or protect a group buy or whatever because popular wallet software can't simply send to it.
1285 2013-09-12 17:02:42 <TD> where is the GUI for creating useful P2SH-based constructs? does not exist. if one were to exist, it probably wouldn't have any use for P2SH, it'd be based on a custom protocol like the payment channels work me and matt did is
1286 2013-09-12 17:02:44 <jgarzik> TD, BitPay considers P2SH multisig an "enterprise" feature
1287 2013-09-12 17:03:08 <jgarzik> TD, txtool, command line UI for now.   Lots of interest so far.
1288 2013-09-12 17:03:16 <TD> exactly, command line tools only.
1289 2013-09-12 17:03:34 * Luke-Jr proposes we make ALL new addresses in 0.9 be P2SH
1290 2013-09-12 17:03:38 <TD> if a business wants to receive money to multi-sig accounts it can easily do that with the payment protocol.
1291 2013-09-12 17:03:49 Julius_129 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1292 2013-09-12 17:03:50 <gmaxwell> TD: The main purpose of P2SH is so that the recipent of the funds can specify the redemption rules without requiring every sender upgrade to support them.
1293 2013-09-12 17:03:51 <jgarzik> TD, don't be so short-sighted on the use cases
1294 2013-09-12 17:04:09 normanrichards has joined
1295 2013-09-12 17:04:15 <TD> the payment protocol also supports that. wallets don't have to impose any particular rules on the output scripts the payment requests can contain.
1296 2013-09-12 17:04:28 ticean has joined
1297 2013-09-12 17:04:34 <TD> heck, if a recipient really really wants to receive a p2sh payment for some reason, they can just put the p2sh output into the payment request message
1298 2013-09-12 17:04:46 CodesInChaos_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1299 2013-09-12 17:04:48 <gmaxwell> TD: how exactly is the payment protocol going to help escrow funds in a group buy so the the recipent doesn't just run off with them?
1300 2013-09-12 17:05:05 <jgarzik> TD, our use cases have zero to do with payment protocols.  we are distributing keys among key individuals in an enterprise.
1301 2013-09-12 17:05:13 <jgarzik> TD, these are long-term storage and redemptions
1302 2013-09-12 17:05:20 <TD> your clickable link goes to a payment request file that contains the required output scripts
1303 2013-09-12 17:05:53 <gmaxwell> TD: how? there is no party that has a SSL cert. It's a payment to an anonymous party.
1304 2013-09-12 17:06:08 <TD> jgarzik: then P2SH is not the right tool for the job. you need to develop GUI apps that guide users through the process of setting that up and managing it, at which point addresses are irrelevant. you don't expect your users to read addresses out loud or write them down, i'd hope, so at that point you should be able to move data around via other ways
1305 2013-09-12 17:06:15 <TD> gmaxwell: payment requests can be unsigned.
1306 2013-09-12 17:06:25 <TD> although for a group buy i'd hope they would be signed!
1307 2013-09-12 17:06:27 <jgarzik> TD, you are simply arguing against multisig itself, which is silly
1308 2013-09-12 17:06:38 <TD> hardly. payment channels are based on multisig transactions
1309 2013-09-12 17:06:38 <jgarzik> multisig P2SH == multisig with additional privacy
1310 2013-09-12 17:06:59 <TD> it's not a big privacy change. the moment the money is spent, you still see the same information as before.
1311 2013-09-12 17:07:15 <jgarzik> if you don't think escrow is a useful use case, this is a lost cause...
1312 2013-09-12 17:07:32 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1313 2013-09-12 17:07:45 <TD> P2SH is _at most_ a way to shift a handful of bytes out of a UTXO entry at the cost of larger overall impact on the blockchain. as an optimisation it's uncompelling. as a GUI it's a disaster, just like regular addresses.
1314 2013-09-12 17:08:05 <jgarzik> TD, plenty of people disagree with you, sufficient to justify its inclusion in bitcoinj
1315 2013-09-12 17:08:10 <TD> escrow is indeed a useful use case. it's one of the first i ever documented on the contracts page. it also has nothing to do with p2sh
1316 2013-09-12 17:08:21 <gmaxwell> TD: P2SH does not cause a larger overall impact on the blockchain.
1317 2013-09-12 17:08:51 <TD> you pay the cost of the extra hash
1318 2013-09-12 17:08:51 handle has joined
1319 2013-09-12 17:08:58 <gmaxwell> TD: The size is the one byte more in the completed output plus spend case, however, it moves several bytes to the chain from the utxo set.
1320 2013-09-12 17:09:27 <gmaxwell> TD: no, there isn't an extra hash when you have a pubkey in the script instead of a HASH160.
1321 2013-09-12 17:09:40 <jouke> I always thought that the size of the blockchain was the problem, not the size of the utxo set
1322 2013-09-12 17:09:53 <gmaxwell> jouke: size of the blockchain is pretty irrelevant.
1323 2013-09-12 17:10:03 Andrevan has joined
1324 2013-09-12 17:10:32 <gmaxwell> jouke: bandwidth required to keep up with it is another concern, but you don't actually need to store deep historic blocks (except to help sync up new nodes)
1325 2013-09-12 17:10:35 <TD> for the same script, you pay an extra hash. arguing that it saves space because you change the script at the same time is misleading, imo - p2sh always costs strictly more than standard uses of scripting. the payment protocol makes all this irrelevant anyway, addresses are something we should be trying to phase out, not add features to
1326 2013-09-12 17:11:16 <TD> it's hardly irrelevant. the cost has to be paid. it's not huge, but it has to be paid forever, whereas utxo entries get deleted at some point.
1327 2013-09-12 17:11:34 <TD> i think it's still unclear how the costs of those two things will interact over the long term.
1328 2013-09-12 17:11:55 <gmaxwell> TD: the cost is amortized over the entire network, while the utxo cost is not.
1329 2013-09-12 17:12:30 lman has joined
1330 2013-09-12 17:12:45 <gmaxwell> there only needs to be 1 copy (plus some more, for redundancy, of course) of every far historical transaction. It's a pretty substantial difference storage wise.
1331 2013-09-12 17:12:49 <lman> hello I want to inform about a serius bug in bitcoin-bt
1332 2013-09-12 17:12:49 <gmaxwell> But this is a tangent.
1333 2013-09-12 17:12:53 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1334 2013-09-12 17:12:54 QQCrypt_ has joined
1335 2013-09-12 17:13:01 <gmaxwell> lman: okay?
1336 2013-09-12 17:13:01 <lman> that can make all your money to burn
1337 2013-09-12 17:13:21 johnsoft has joined
1338 2013-09-12 17:13:29 <lman> gmaxwell: can i tell you?
1339 2013-09-12 17:13:34 <gmaxwell> TD: I agree that addresses should go down in usage but they are with us for the forrseeable future.
1340 2013-09-12 17:13:50 <gmaxwell> lman: You may, yes. I would be an approiate person to tell.
1341 2013-09-12 17:14:14 <lman> the bug is simple to resolve, but potentially desastrousus
1342 2013-09-12 17:14:33 <gmaxwell> lman: can it be triggered by third parties? (e.g. if it can you should tell me in private)
1343 2013-09-12 17:14:38 <lman> in the box you put the amount to transfer, it gets confused about decimal separators
1344 2013-09-12 17:14:44 Guest__ has joined
1345 2013-09-12 17:14:48 <lman> i live in spain, where the separator is ","
1346 2013-09-12 17:15:06 rdymac has joined
1347 2013-09-12 17:15:08 <lman> i tried to use "." as separator
1348 2013-09-12 17:15:27 <TD> ah shit. i remember jim fixing something like this in multibit
1349 2013-09-12 17:15:30 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1350 2013-09-12 17:15:34 <lman> the result is that when I tried to send 0.001 it send in fact 1
1351 2013-09-12 17:15:34 <gmaxwell> This has come up previously.
1352 2013-09-12 17:15:41 _ingsoc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1353 2013-09-12 17:15:44 <gmaxwell> wumpus: ^  what ever happened with this?
1354 2013-09-12 17:16:28 Subo1977 has joined
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1357 2013-09-12 17:18:19 <gmaxwell> TD: In any case, P2SH has been deployed for something like two years now. Your arguement seems to be basically we should be creating a false tying between payment protocol messages and things like escrow usage in order to coerce people to adopt the payment protocol in places where an address would do.
1358 2013-09-12 17:18:28 <gmaxwell> I think thats a bit cruddy.
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1360 2013-09-12 17:20:44 <lman> gmaxwell: here is a proof: https://blockchain.info/address/1KC6T8MRV9a79Ss2MYfSdh8yqKmpZftBwQ
1361 2013-09-12 17:20:56 <lman> I had 0.02 in my wallet
1362 2013-09-12 17:20:59 <TD> no, i'm saying p2sh is a feature that just isn't usable. i did point this out at the time it was merged - gavin believed that apps to do complicated multi-device wallets would appear before a payment protocol did, and people wouldn't like the look of long addresses. that was pretty much the rationale given. that didn't happen, obviously
1363 2013-09-12 17:21:08 <lman> and tried to send 0.01
1364 2013-09-12 17:21:24 <lman> the resulting operation is what you see
1365 2013-09-12 17:21:33 <lman> I don't know what that address is
1366 2013-09-12 17:21:34 <TD> developing features that are used only by bitcoind developers, isn't the right way to go, and p2sh definitely falls into that category
1367 2013-09-12 17:21:56 <TD> now if there was a really slick set of GUIs that ordinary people were telling me they wanted to use, that'd be different, but no such GUIs exist because anyone who did design such a thing would quickly realise addresses were the wrong way to go
1368 2013-09-12 17:22:06 <gmaxwell> TD: It's not usable because people can't send to it. Why would you create such an address when the promoted client on bitcoin.org can't send funds to it.
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1370 2013-09-12 17:23:23 <gmaxwell> TD: it's none of the payer's business, in general, what facilities the payee is using to manage their funds. The problem is full separable but this creates a needless catch22.
1371 2013-09-12 17:23:41 <TD> there's competition in wallet software, so if this was a compelling feature people cared about, some wallet would implement it as a way to gain a competitive advantage. or someone would get really inspired at how cool it is and send me a pile of patches to make it all work nicely. after two+ years that never happened, probably because only people intimately familiar with bitcoind can create those addresses
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1374 2013-09-12 17:24:12 <TD> as i said, the payment protocol IS being implemented at the moment, and it supersedes the need for addresses. at that point bitcoinj based wallets will be able to send to multsig scripts, p2sh scripts, etc
1375 2013-09-12 17:24:17 <TD> so this issue will resolve itself.
1376 2013-09-12 17:24:26 <gmaxwell> TD: how can supporting it be a competative advantage when the public can't pay to the addresses?
1377 2013-09-12 17:24:41 <TD> i meant, wallets would implement the ability to pay to those addresses
1378 2013-09-12 17:25:00 <TD> right? then someone would say to me "i switched from the android wallet to $FOO because i wanted to take part in $GROUP_BUY" or whatever
1379 2013-09-12 17:25:04 <gmaxwell> TD: so that you don't feel that I'm surprising you, I'm going to propose we remove these wallets applications from bitcoin.org.
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1382 2013-09-12 17:25:44 <TD> and tell people to use bitcoin-qt because you think the ability to send to addresses only command-line commandos can create, is more important than basic things like performance?
1383 2013-09-12 17:25:59 <gmaxwell> TD: they can happily use electrum.
1384 2013-09-12 17:26:22 <lman> gmaxwell: sorry to interrupt you, you can pm me when you want
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1386 2013-09-12 17:27:03 <TD> the app that requires you to manually install multiple scripting engines on phones/tablets in order to run? great usability there.
1387 2013-09-12 17:27:51 <TD> look, i'd happily accept patches that implement it in bitcoinj properly. but the _only_ way people have to create these addresses right now is to use totally undocumented command line features of bitcoind. that's not something that's useful to the vast majority of bitcoin users.
1388 2013-09-12 17:27:59 <TD> so lots of other things are higher up my priority list
1389 2013-09-12 17:28:04 <gmaxwell> TD: so? You want to force people to send their requests for payments over HTTPS there are cases where thats poor usability too.
1390 2013-09-12 17:28:27 <TD> payment protocol does not require https. you can attach the files to emails, send them via bluetooth, etc.
1391 2013-09-12 17:28:35 <gmaxwell> TD: again, there is no reason for people to bother creating the addresses when many people cannot send to them.
1392 2013-09-12 17:28:38 <jgarzik> TD, Not true.  Both sx and txtool can create and use these P2SH address
1393 2013-09-12 17:28:46 <jgarzik> *addresses
1394 2013-09-12 17:28:48 <TheLordOfTime> sorry to interrupt, but can I create my own bootstrap.dat by cat-ting all the blocks together one after the other?
1395 2013-09-12 17:28:55 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, no
1396 2013-09-12 17:29:11 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, how does one create the bootstrap.dat?  I don't have the internet bandwidth to torrent the entire thing.
1397 2013-09-12 17:29:14 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, it's not linearized, so there would be a lot of dead blocks and zeroes in there
1398 2013-09-12 17:29:39 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/contrib/misc
1399 2013-09-12 17:29:47 <gmaxwell> TD: for P2SH to be useful to anyone it is required that a some people can create them and that ~everyone can send to them.
1400 2013-09-12 17:30:18 <TD> see, this is the fundamental source of the disagreement. i think nobody uses P2SH because only the intersection of people who "want to do something complicated" and "know how to do it all via manually crafting transactions at the command line" is so small that it's irrelevant, and you believe it's because not enough people can send to the resulting addresses.
1401 2013-09-12 17:30:20 <gmaxwell> TD: and, fwiw, I have never encountered a user who prefered multibit to electrum.
1402 2013-09-12 17:30:41 <TD> heh, well, you did now :)
1403 2013-09-12 17:30:59 <gmaxwell> TD: I know first hand its because people can't send to the resulting address because I've had people complaing to me that they couldn't send to the coinjoin bounty, and I was shocked that they couldn't do so.
1404 2013-09-12 17:31:26 <jgarzik> TD, I'm sorry, but that is quite dishonest.  If the most popular clients do not implement it, it will never get experimented-with.  It is a clear dependency.
1405 2013-09-12 17:31:50 QQCrypt_ has left ()
1406 2013-09-12 17:31:57 <TD> gmaxwell: well, as you never met anyone who preferred multibit to electrum, i'm not sure where those people come from. but you can recommend they download electrum and use that to send the coins instead.
1407 2013-09-12 17:32:16 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, that script does, what, linearizes the blocks?  the underlying question still remains: how do i create a bootstrap.dat from what i've got on my other system?  As I said, I don't have the internet bandwidth right now to download the entire bootstrap.dat torrent, nor the whole chain again...
1408 2013-09-12 17:32:26 <gmaxwell> TD: android wallet was actually the surprising complaint source, not multibit
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1410 2013-09-12 17:32:31 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, linearize.py does precisely that
1411 2013-09-12 17:32:55 <gmaxwell> (I mentioned initially that I didn't actually know if multibit supported it or not as no one has reported to me from multibit)
1412 2013-09-12 17:32:55 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, what's the prerequisites for execution?  RPC port opened?  What're the runtime arguments?  Or is there an example file there?
1413 2013-09-12 17:33:13 <TheLordOfTime> ... nevermind, i read it now
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1415 2013-09-12 17:33:37 <TD> look, i work on bitcoinj when i can, but it's usually about one day a week. there are features i need to implement that will be used by more than an occasional forum thread created by bitcoind developers - basic things, like not relying so heavily on the DNS seeds, or supporting deterministic wallets, or reviewing/merging work done on the payment protocol. bug fixes, etc.
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1417 2013-09-12 17:33:59 <gmaxwell> TD: if you're telling me that its just a priority thing thats a different message than I was hearing from you before.
1418 2013-09-12 17:34:02 <TD> features that aren't going to be useful to the majority of users, get down prioritised. it's pretty basic.
1419 2013-09-12 17:34:11 <jgarzik> indeed (RE different msg)
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1421 2013-09-12 17:34:22 <TD> i told you it's low priority compared to other things because i don't think it's a very useful feature, and the payment protocol will supersede it and solve this problem in a different way
1422 2013-09-12 17:34:45 <gmaxwell> TD: I don't agree that payment protocol solves the same problem, but I'm not asking you to agree with me on that point.
1423 2013-09-12 17:34:46 <TD> payment requests specify the precise script to send to. so you get whatever forms you want "for free"
1424 2013-09-12 17:34:53 <gmaxwell> (I agree there is some overlap)
1425 2013-09-12 17:34:53 <jgarzik> lowered priority is vastly different from intense argumentation against, which presages PR refusal from third parties
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1427 2013-09-12 17:35:12 <jgarzik> we can contribute P2SH if it will get accepted
1428 2013-09-12 17:35:16 <TD> i already said twice further up that if someone sent me patches to do it properly, i'd merge them.
1429 2013-09-12 17:35:31 <gmaxwell> TD: as an aside, are you able to build multibit?
1430 2013-09-12 17:36:02 <TD> i'm not going to do it myself because anyone who is capable of producing and running something that uses p2sh is capable of working with the payment protocol as well, and that gives a better user experience overall. but if someone else wants to, go for it.
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1432 2013-09-12 17:36:11 <TD> i haven't done so lately. i have built it in the past, yes
1433 2013-09-12 17:36:19 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, how long would it normally take to complete?
1434 2013-09-12 17:36:26 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, a while
1435 2013-09-12 17:36:43 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, took maybe… 15 minutes for me?  cannot recall exactly.
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1437 2013-09-12 17:39:14 <TD> at any rate, the GUIs don't need to change. for p2sh address support the only changes needed are inside bitcoinj.
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1440 2013-09-12 17:39:45 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, how... up-to-date... is that with python?  i'm getting errors that even prevent runtime...
1441 2013-09-12 17:39:53 <TheLordOfTime> happen to know all the python dependencies i need for it?
1442 2013-09-12 17:39:59 <TD> right, dinner time
1443 2013-09-12 17:40:08 <gmaxwell> TD: apparently android wallet was doing some input field sanitization that was also rejecting them, but I believe thats been fixed now.
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1445 2013-09-12 17:40:20 <TheLordOfTime> also, the lack of a README for how to execute and dependencies makes it that much harder to use :/
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1454 2013-09-12 17:49:01 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, it's possible to pull data on the local network from the other, fully synced bitcoind node, right?
1455 2013-09-12 17:49:32 <TheLordOfTime> since that's still connected to the bitcoin network and is still syncing, i can force the new bitcoin-qt/bitcoind to only pull data from that node, right?
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1459 2013-09-12 17:51:18 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, linearize.py pulls from any bitcoind RPC
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1461 2013-09-12 17:51:45 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, let's forget the use fo that for now
1462 2013-09-12 17:51:49 <TheLordOfTime> because it's not running correctly
1463 2013-09-12 17:52:01 <TheLordOfTime> as i said, without a README for execution, it's almost impossible to use
1464 2013-09-12 17:52:06 <TheLordOfTime> (it's failing to run)
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1469 2013-09-12 17:53:18 <TheLordOfTime> so, back to my other question, is it possible to force bitcoin-qt to only connect to the other node on my LAN (which, because of the local network and not actual internet data usage, wouldn't be using my bandwidth limits) and download blocks only from that, fully-synced, node?
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1471 2013-09-12 17:53:56 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, sure.  -connect=IP
1472 2013-09-12 17:54:12 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, or copy blocks/ directory and run -reindex
1473 2013-09-12 17:54:50 <jgarzik> Are multibit and Bitcoin Wallet the only two bitcoinj-based wallets out there?
1474 2013-09-12 17:54:53 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, ah, okay, the -connect runtime argument works for what i need (and apparently, i was correct with using it :) )
1475 2013-09-12 17:55:02 <jgarzik> Nothing CLI and hacker friendly lurking in a dark corner, for bitcoinj wallet?  :)
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1516 2013-09-12 18:39:11 * Luke-Jr wonders if it would be controversial to use sipa's address index as a way to not-relay address reuse
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1532 2013-09-12 18:59:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I still think that a limited map is better.
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1534 2013-09-12 18:59:32 <gmaxwell> e.g. don't totally kill address reuse, just deprioritize it probabilisticly.
1535 2013-09-12 18:59:40 <gmaxwell> Much more computationally cheap too.
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1537 2013-09-12 19:00:49 <gmaxwell> e.g. check a limited map when you get a txn, if it hits, you half its priority and accept it, when the map misses, you accept it add it to the map.
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1604 2013-09-12 20:29:27 <K1773R> Luke-Jr: was your pull request "child pays for parent" rejected?
1605 2013-09-12 20:32:23 <Luke-Jr> K1773R: no, there's just a number of better ways to do it
1606 2013-09-12 20:32:39 <K1773R> Luke-Jr: which?
1607 2013-09-12 20:32:48 <Luke-Jr> and none of those ways have been tested (or written for the ideal cases)
1608 2013-09-12 20:32:59 <Luke-Jr> K1773R: petertodd was working on an ideal implementation
1609 2013-09-12 20:33:22 <Luke-Jr> although it's crashed my client, so I pulled it out
1610 2013-09-12 20:34:56 <nsh> does petertodd's implementation have any notes up?
1611 2013-09-12 20:35:29 <Luke-Jr> it's not complete yet
1612 2013-09-12 20:35:34 <nsh> okay
1613 2013-09-12 20:35:56 <nsh> i had a bit of a weird idea the other day that might be solveable using bitcoin-style encryption
1614 2013-09-12 20:35:58 <nsh> but i'm not sure
1615 2013-09-12 20:36:10 <nsh> a kind of informational pass-the-parcel
1616 2013-09-12 20:36:28 <nsh> whereby the more time spent viewing something in a browser, the more layers are unwrapped
1617 2013-09-12 20:36:28 <gmaxwell> nsh: sounds like subject matter for #bitcoin-wizards
1618 2013-09-12 20:37:10 <nsh> i'm not sure if it's possible to mathematically guarantee that some information will be progressively (probabilistically) decrypted as a function of time spent with it open in a browser
1619 2013-09-12 20:37:15 <nsh> because that sounds somewhat similar to timelock
1620 2013-09-12 20:37:46 <nsh> (sum of distributed browser time)
1621 2013-09-12 20:38:17 <edcba> except browsers usually runs js with cpu
1622 2013-09-12 20:38:20 <nsh> the idea was to incentivise dissemination of information by being able to guarantee some hidden secrets would be disclosed if enough sharing happened
1623 2013-09-12 20:38:32 <edcba> expect adversary running gpu in native
1624 2013-09-12 20:38:38 <nsh> well, you could scale the difficulty for expected browser power
1625 2013-09-12 20:38:39 <edcba> ie a lot more faste
1626 2013-09-12 20:38:40 <nsh> mmm
1627 2013-09-12 20:38:40 <edcba> r
1628 2013-09-12 20:38:46 * nsh nods
1629 2013-09-12 20:39:11 <nsh> there wouldn't necessarily be a strong requirement to limit the speed of decryption
1630 2013-09-12 20:39:20 <nsh> only to make it nominally  function of dissemination
1631 2013-09-12 20:39:24 <nsh> +a
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1633 2013-09-12 20:40:55 <gmaxwell> this is really OT for #bitcoin-dev
1634 2013-09-12 20:41:08 <nsh> apologies. just musing
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1664 2013-09-12 21:27:38 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Is 0.8.5 released yet? (is it worth gbuilding?)
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1697 2013-09-12 22:37:12 <nanotube> hm, i have 61 tor peers out of 97 total bitcoin peers. i mean it could be that this represents all bitcoin tor peers in existence. but still not too bad of a presence.
1698 2013-09-12 22:38:17 <gmaxwell> nanotube: for nodes which use tor for both IPv4 and HS peers I believe they will only make one HS connection.
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1700 2013-09-12 22:38:29 <gmaxwell> (because all HS are treated as a single netgroup)
1701 2013-09-12 22:39:05 <gmaxwell> so have 61 HS peers is actually quiet a bit.
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1704 2013-09-12 22:40:37 <nanotube> mm
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1741 2013-09-12 23:32:41 <warren> sipa: we're now distributing two official builds, "Litecoin" and "Litecoin OMG".  The latter includes patches we aren't sure are safe including secp256k1, Coin Control, SSE2 optimized other stuff, and other stuff from 0.9 that aren't ACK'ed yet.
1742 2013-09-12 23:33:03 <sipa> ic
1743 2013-09-12 23:33:27 <warren> the disclaimer will say "This build is intended to break things.  If it works, be pleasantly surprised."
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1752 2013-09-12 23:41:02 <Luke-Jr> warren: so it's like next-test :P
1753 2013-09-12 23:44:20 <warren> Luke-Jr: with a better name =P
1754 2013-09-12 23:44:57 <gmaxwell> warren: should have been Litecoin POW  for extra confusion.
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1756 2013-09-12 23:49:47 <SomeoneWeird> lol
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