1 2013-09-13 00:00:36 stochasm has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
   2 2013-09-13 00:01:20 <sipa> cfields: why is that testgmp.cpp necessary in the sample patch you showed me yesterday?
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  19 2013-09-13 00:19:21 <cfields> sipa: it's not, i was just showing you how to properly guard in case the lib wasn't found
  20 2013-09-13 00:21:03 <warren> sipa: we got secp256k1 on 0.8 to build on 32bit mac yesterday, we have some hacks to add to your old configure script, but it sounds like cfields is redoing it with autotools now?
  21 2013-09-13 00:21:41 <sipa> not soon, i suppose
  22 2013-09-13 00:21:53 <sipa> cfields: ok, got it working
  23 2013-09-13 00:22:32 <cfields> sipa: you can use those guards to make it portable, so that it works either in autotools or standalone
  24 2013-09-13 00:22:54 <sipa> i don't see how it makes a difference
  25 2013-09-13 00:22:59 Pengoo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  26 2013-09-13 00:23:07 <cfields> HAVE_CONFIG_H specifically
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  28 2013-09-13 00:23:40 <sipa> i'm not following
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  30 2013-09-13 00:24:05 <sipa> what does that check file add? it'll fail building in case gmp isn't installed, but the build would fail in that case anyway?
  31 2013-09-13 00:25:00 <cfields> sipa: ah, i was thinking you had some optional deps among gmp/openssl/etc
  32 2013-09-13 00:25:06 an3k has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  33 2013-09-13 00:25:07 <sipa> yes, sure
  34 2013-09-13 00:25:14 mhanne has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  35 2013-09-13 00:25:44 <sipa> but i don't see how this helps?
  36 2013-09-13 00:26:05 <sipa> (not that it matters to me, i just need it to work - configurability can come later)
  37 2013-09-13 00:26:55 <cfields> sipa: don't worry about it, i have a feeling i made some bad assumptions
  38 2013-09-13 00:27:16 <sipa> ok
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  57 2013-09-13 00:48:55 <gavinandresen> Uploading 0.8.5 release binaries to sourceforge....
  58 2013-09-13 00:49:19 <gavinandresen> Can y'all proofread release notes for me:  https://bitcoincore.org/~gavin/0.8.5Notes.txt
  59 2013-09-13 00:49:42 <an3k> sipa: i successfully reindexed all blocks and wallet is synched now :)
  60 2013-09-13 00:49:56 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  61 2013-09-13 00:51:38 <sipa> gavinandresen: ACK
  62 2013-09-13 00:53:17 <sipa> an3k: ok, hope it doesn't happen again
  63 2013-09-13 00:55:35 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: passes my read
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  65 2013-09-13 00:55:54 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell sipa : awesome, thanks
  66 2013-09-13 00:56:00 <gavinandresen> 82% uploaded….
  67 2013-09-13 00:56:32 <an3k> yeah. maybe it happened because last shutdown before may be a little bit hard for bitcoin-qt. ubuntu shutdown the notebook because of battery. It doesn't wait that long for an application to shut down ;)
  68 2013-09-13 00:57:35 malaimo has joined
  69 2013-09-13 00:57:53 <an3k> i just deleted the last blk12345.dat file and reindexed
  70 2013-09-13 00:58:26 <sipa> an3k: the .dat file was almost certainly ok; you'd have gotten a different error otherwise
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  73 2013-09-13 00:58:55 <an3k> i hope there's just a bug in the code, not a defect in my hardware :)
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  79 2013-09-13 01:01:07 <an3k> is it a bitcoin-qt bug or ubuntu bug when at first launch bitcoin-qt doesn't place it's icon into ubuntu unity menu bar?
  80 2013-09-13 01:01:35 <sipa> no clue
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  83 2013-09-13 01:03:46 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: looks good to me
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  87 2013-09-13 01:09:02 <gavinandresen> Looks good to me, too; announcement time
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  91 2013-09-13 01:14:47 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, ACK
  92 2013-09-13 01:21:16 <gavinandresen> saivann: awake?
  93 2013-09-13 01:23:12 <an3k> developers: want to make an announcement at 3:30 am :)
  94 2013-09-13 01:25:37 freaksh0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  95 2013-09-13 01:28:34 <gmaxwell> some of us are not in .. italy?
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  98 2013-09-13 01:30:22 <saivann> gavinandresen : yep
  99 2013-09-13 01:30:55 <gavinandresen> saivann: cool!  I'm editing _releases/2013-09-13-v0.8.5.md ....
 100 2013-09-13 01:31:14 <gavinandresen> saivann: I gather I just need to push that to get the download page on bitcoin.org to magically change
 101 2013-09-13 01:31:40 toffoo has joined
 102 2013-09-13 01:31:59 <saivann> gavinandresen: Yes, the _releases/2013-09-13-v0.8.5.md is all you need to add, the RSS / latest version will auto update
 103 2013-09-13 01:33:09 <gavinandresen> saivann: I hope I did that right....
 104 2013-09-13 01:33:36 <saivann> I will fix it in the following minute if anything is wrong
 105 2013-09-13 01:34:16 <TheLordOfTime> what determines how quickly bitcoin-qt indexes the blocks?
 106 2013-09-13 01:34:44 <TheLordOfTime> or rather, what's the primary governing factor of how quickly the blocks get indexed?
 107 2013-09-13 01:35:14 FabianB has joined
 108 2013-09-13 01:35:21 <saivann> gavinandresen: Perfect, the site will take ~15 minutes to update. You can consider it done.
 109 2013-09-13 01:35:42 <gavinandresen> ok, wiki updated, mail sent to bitcoin-dev, topic posted to bitcointalk, bitcoin.org updated…
 110 2013-09-13 01:35:56 <gavinandresen> … can somebody update the Latest version in the topic here?
 111 2013-09-13 01:36:02 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 113 2013-09-13 01:44:54 <TheLordOfTime> gavinandresen, if nobody's helped in a few minutes i can go poke the topic for you, just tell me what you need fixed.
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 115 2013-09-13 01:45:08 * TheLordOfTime is currently poking around in a linux kernel and is only partly focused on IRC.
 116 2013-09-13 01:45:30 <gavinandresen> s/Latest version: 0.8.4/Latest version: 0.8.5/
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 119 2013-09-13 01:48:01 <TheLordOfTime> there you go
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 122 2013-09-13 01:50:58 <ageis> cool. any reason why there isn't a 64-bit windows build?
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 124 2013-09-13 01:53:00 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, what was the solution for the text relocation issue?
 125 2013-09-13 01:53:02 <phantomcircuit> compile with -O2?
 126 2013-09-13 01:53:22 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, same question
 127 2013-09-13 01:54:17 <gavinandresen> ageis: because nobody has shown any advantages (performance or compatibility) to a 64-bit build.
 128 2013-09-13 01:54:40 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 129 2013-09-13 01:54:40 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: text relocation issue…  isn't ringing any bells with me
 130 2013-09-13 01:54:55 <phantomcircuit>  /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.6.3/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: leveldb/libleveldb.a(db_impl.o): relocation R_X86_64_32S against `vtable for leveldb::DB' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
 131 2013-09-13 01:54:55 <gmaxwell> if we ever switch to libsecp256k1 there is a big performance advantage for 64 bit... but not today.
 132 2013-09-13 01:55:21 <phantomcircuit> i'll just disable hardening for now
 133 2013-09-13 01:55:28 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: go delete leveldb/libleveldb.a
 134 2013-09-13 01:55:39 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, oh is that all?
 135 2013-09-13 01:55:43 <phantomcircuit> can do
 136 2013-09-13 01:55:46 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: this isn't a hardening issue IIRC, its just a switching from pre-autofools issue.
 137 2013-09-13 01:55:50 <gavinandresen> That is a "you should make clean before switching" issue?
 138 2013-09-13 01:55:54 <sipa> yes
 139 2013-09-13 01:55:57 <phantomcircuit> yeah
 140 2013-09-13 01:55:58 <gmaxwell> I think so.
 141 2013-09-13 01:56:01 <phantomcircuit> i see it now..
 142 2013-09-13 01:56:01 <gavinandresen> cool
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 144 2013-09-13 01:56:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: 64-bit openssl is already ~2 times faster than 32-bit
 145 2013-09-13 01:56:35 <gavinandresen> maybe autogen.sh should "if there is a Makefile, make clean, then do my thing"
 146 2013-09-13 01:56:42 <saivann> Is there a OS specific "latest version" link on sourceforce (like http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/latest/download?source=files&default=windows)
 147 2013-09-13 01:56:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm!
 148 2013-09-13 01:56:53 <saivann> weusecoins is always outdated and this would probably fix this problem
 149 2013-09-13 01:57:05 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, shrug short term issue not worth added complexity
 150 2013-09-13 01:57:08 cris has quit ()
 151 2013-09-13 01:57:12 <phantomcircuit> autotools is already complicated enough...
 152 2013-09-13 01:57:20 <sipa> who owns/manages weusecoins?
 153 2013-09-13 01:57:37 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: agreed.  I think.  Depends on how much time we tell people how to fix it...
 154 2013-09-13 01:57:37 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: 'make clean' won't work anymore at that point
 155 2013-09-13 01:57:38 <sipa> still justmoon?
 156 2013-09-13 01:57:42 <gmaxwell> Can we put a link to the signatures file: http://bitcoin.org/en/download  it's really hard to find, and we do actually get people looking for them (actually, calling us nasty things for not having one)
 157 2013-09-13 01:57:46 <saivann> sipa : It changed ownership, but I don't know the real owner. I can email him though
 158 2013-09-13 01:57:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: make clean before updating not after..
 159 2013-09-13 01:58:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: autogen.sh doesn't exist before updating ;)
 160 2013-09-13 01:58:19 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: make -f makefile.unix clean
 161 2013-09-13 01:58:23 <gavinandresen> ok, never mind, bad idea.  Maybe autogen.sh should check for the obj/ directories and nuke them… no, bad idea, too....
 162 2013-09-13 01:58:32 Coincidental has joined
 163 2013-09-13 01:58:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that won't exist if autogen.sh does
 164 2013-09-13 01:59:01 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: my initial reaction was "meh, one time cost, not worth doing anything about"  but considering how many people its burning…
 165 2013-09-13 01:59:13 <gavinandresen> mmm
 166 2013-09-13 01:59:28 <gavinandresen> could update the README temporarily, but nobody reads READMEs...
 167 2013-09-13 01:59:44 <phantomcircuit>  --without-qt will disable building bitcoin-qt right
 168 2013-09-13 01:59:50 <sipa> phantomcircuit: indeed
 169 2013-09-13 02:00:10 <sipa> warren: i updated my secp256k1 branch
 170 2013-09-13 02:00:23 <sipa> warren: can you tell me which commits are still necessary on top of it?
 171 2013-09-13 02:01:20 <sipa> gitignore sounds useful, but the rest needs rebasing, i think
 172 2013-09-13 02:01:38 <warren> sipa: updated to master?
 173 2013-09-13 02:02:03 <sipa> yes
 174 2013-09-13 02:02:26 <gmaxwell> could just rename the leveldb directory in git entirely...
 175 2013-09-13 02:03:52 <sipa> gavinandresen: interestingly, your DoS_tests timing test fail completely with libsecp256k1
 176 2013-09-13 02:04:17 <sipa> i just deleted the offending code for now (it's not intended to be merged soon anyway), but i don't really follow what it was doing
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 184 2013-09-13 02:15:48 <saivann> gmaxwell : Is a link to the appropriate SHA256SUMS.asc file on bitcoin.org/en/download enough?
 185 2013-09-13 02:16:11 <Luke-Jr> IMO, linking to gitian.sigs repo would be better
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 187 2013-09-13 02:16:26 <Luke-Jr> .asc is just one signature right now
 188 2013-09-13 02:17:02 <saivann> Luke-Jr: Where is that file located?
 189 2013-09-13 02:17:22 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs
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 196 2013-09-13 02:19:02 <cfields> i can whip up a quick timestamp target that would fix the leveldb autotools-switch problem
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 198 2013-09-13 02:19:09 <cfields> completely uninvasive, up to you guys if it's necessary
 199 2013-09-13 02:20:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that doesn't tell people how to verify the files they just downloaded.
 200 2013-09-13 02:20:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: unfortunately not
 201 2013-09-13 02:20:35 <Luke-Jr> maybe it deserves its own page on bitcoin.org explaining that
 202 2013-09-13 02:20:57 <gmaxwell> for now the SHA256SUMS.asc is good.
 203 2013-09-13 02:21:01 * Luke-Jr shrugs
 204 2013-09-13 02:21:07 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: perhaps we should write those instructions into SHA256SUMS.asc
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 207 2013-09-13 02:28:57 <cfields> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=zSLzX259 to fix the migration, if desired. forces a one-time clean
 208 2013-09-13 02:36:37 <jgarzik> I continue to be tempted to break bitcoind JSON-RPC, to convert all decimal values to satoshis
 209 2013-09-13 02:36:49 <jgarzik> a pre-1.0 change
 210 2013-09-13 02:38:34 Subo1977_ has joined
 211 2013-09-13 02:40:12 <gmaxwell> we could make every place it writes value also write intvalue but that doesn't solve input provided by the user.
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 216 2013-09-13 02:48:19 <gavinandresen>  sipa: DoS_bantime fails?  That's weird-- it tests the "ban is lifted after 24 hours by default" rule
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 221 2013-09-13 02:56:21 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: +1
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 223 2013-09-13 03:00:05 <saivann> gmaxwell, Luke-Jr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/241
 224 2013-09-13 03:00:32 <Luke-Jr> saivann: looks fine
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 287 2013-09-13 05:08:27 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|This is probably a bug, but I just thought I'd mention that sourceforge is claiming 0.8.1 is the latest version (though ofc there *is* no latest version for iOS): http://i.imgur.com/RJe57JY.png
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 291 2013-09-13 05:15:08 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Also: Sorry about the gitian thing -- I guess the pull request didn't get created as it was supposed to when I ran my script, and I see the delay until this morning meant I missed release... :-/
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 326 2013-09-13 06:18:26 <gmaxwell> Petertodd posted SHA1 RIPEMD160 SHA256 HASH256 HASH160 and OP_ABS collision bounties: http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/31397880/
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 339 2013-09-13 06:34:50 <gmaxwell> (y-combinatored https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6378976 )
 340 2013-09-13 06:35:32 <Ferroh> For some reason I thought the command:
 341 2013-09-13 06:35:32 <Ferroh> bitcoind getbalance ""
 342 2013-09-13 06:35:45 <Ferroh> is supposed to show you your balance across all addresses
 343 2013-09-13 06:35:50 <Ferroh> but it doesnt seem to do that
 344 2013-09-13 06:35:52 <Ferroh> what does it do?
 345 2013-09-13 06:36:05 <Ferroh> That command is giving me a negative number
 346 2013-09-13 06:37:05 <Ferroh> Apparently account "" has a balance of around -300 BTC...
 347 2013-09-13 06:37:28 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: "*"
 348 2013-09-13 06:37:35 <Ferroh> thanks
 349 2013-09-13 06:37:43 <gmaxwell> or just getbalance
 350 2013-09-13 06:38:10 <Ferroh> yeah, but I was trying to enter minconf and that wasn't working with just getbalance
 351 2013-09-13 06:39:15 arioBarzan has joined
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 353 2013-09-13 06:41:57 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Ferroh: (you can fix the negative balance with the move command)
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 356 2013-09-13 06:42:30 <Ferroh> even though the negative balance is significantly higher than the bitcoin balance?
 357 2013-09-13 06:42:38 digitalmagus has joined
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 360 2013-09-13 06:42:39 <Ferroh> negative balance is -300, bitcoin balance is 100
 361 2013-09-13 06:43:00 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|(that happens because any pabelled addresses credit received funds to their account, and they only ever get spent from there when you use sendfrom"
 362 2013-09-13 06:43:16 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Ferroh: All your accounts should total to your bitcoin balance
 363 2013-09-13 06:43:51 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 364 2013-09-13 06:44:02 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|And yeah, that means you've spent around 300 bitcoins
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 366 2013-09-13 06:44:22 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|You'll find other accounts have already-spent bitcoins in the balance
 367 2013-09-13 06:44:34 <Ferroh> oh, I see
 368 2013-09-13 06:45:01 <Ferroh> having a negative balance is not really a problem though, right?
 369 2013-09-13 06:45:04 <Ferroh> so need to move
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 374 2013-09-13 06:53:49 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Ferroh: Not really a problem, no
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 377 2013-09-13 06:54:51 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|(though you may want to fix that anyway, depending on how you use the accounts system)
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 425 2013-09-13 08:34:01 <hydromet> I'd like to make a newer version of Bitcoin-Qt from source. Before doing so, can I remove the object files in the build/ dir with something like "make clean"
 426 2013-09-13 08:34:06 <hydromet> qmake clean?
 427 2013-09-13 08:34:49 <Polyatomic> hydromet : are you a metallurgist ?
 428 2013-09-13 08:35:11 <hydromet> Polyatoic: why yes, how did you know?
 429 2013-09-13 08:35:29 <Polyatomic> your nick of coarse
 430 2013-09-13 08:35:45 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 431 2013-09-13 08:35:47 <Polyatomic> we do hydrometallurgy at my lab
 432 2013-09-13 08:36:36 <hydromet> fascinating!
 433 2013-09-13 08:37:13 Eagle[TM] has left ()
 434 2013-09-13 08:37:20 <Polyatomic> cyanide leaching , floatation , colomn leaching
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 445 2013-09-13 08:56:31 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: weird on reddit, the announcement of the bug that I posted was responded to with "omg you are so awesome thanks for saving the day"
 446 2013-09-13 08:56:46 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: wherease your version post is getting "wtf you guys suck! I want my money back!"
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 450 2013-09-13 08:57:54 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: internet randomness, I guess.  I wonder if there is a relationship between day-of-week and number-of-trolls
 451 2013-09-13 08:58:49 <gmaxwell> I've seen examples of symmetry breaking on reddit... where the same story got posted twice and one was a love fest and the other a hate fest— and it just seemed to depend on the first post.
 452 2013-09-13 08:59:21 <gavinandresen> So what you're saying is that I need to develop a lovefest sockpuppet....
 453 2013-09-13 09:00:09 rdymac has joined
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 455 2013-09-13 09:01:31 <gmaxwell> nah, thats what this channel is for, make sure to share the links here. :P
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 460 2013-09-13 09:02:47 <petertodd> gmaxwell: If only we had some more encryption primatives in the scripting language so I could make bounty txouts for proof-of-upvote.
 461 2013-09-13 09:02:53 johnsoft has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 466 2013-09-13 09:03:27 <gmaxwell> petertodd: HTTPS doesn't have non-repudiation, alas. (thank god?)
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 469 2013-09-13 09:03:45 <gmaxwell> we don't want any proof-of-obiturary transactions.
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 471 2013-09-13 09:04:22 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: isn't there a danger that nodes serving bloom filter requests will not be able to handle all the requests? they have to filter the same block against multiple filters
 472 2013-09-13 09:04:33 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Guess I'll have to buy a IBM 4758 and set it up as an oracle...
 473 2013-09-13 09:04:36 <ThomasV> this looks cpu intensive
 474 2013-09-13 09:05:03 <petertodd> ThomasV: bloom lookups are pretty cheap compared to the other costs involved
 475 2013-09-13 09:05:07 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: the filters themselves are very cheap, reading the block of disk is usually the bottleneck, as is sending the data out.
 476 2013-09-13 09:05:33 <ThomasV> I see
 477 2013-09-13 09:05:58 johnsoft has quit (Client Quit)
 478 2013-09-13 09:05:59 <petertodd> ThomasV: But yeah, it's an open question as to how the economics are going to work out - likely by a mix of fee-for-access and "free" services involving financial data collection.
 479 2013-09-13 09:06:00 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: I did some measuring before and concluded that for a normal size transaction the cost of the sha256 in the 'checksum' is always greater than the bloom check.
 480 2013-09-13 09:06:24 johnsoft has joined
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 482 2013-09-13 09:06:50 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I saw two on ebay for $400 ea a while back and didn't buy... I know I do not have the time to fool around with them.
 483 2013-09-13 09:07:06 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: sure, but there are as many bloom checks as there are clients with different filters.
 484 2013-09-13 09:07:27 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, there's a few on ebay for $700 right now; I suspect getting all the libraries in order would be a huge pain.
 485 2013-09-13 09:07:34 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: The point I'm making there is that if you are cpu bound, not doing the bloom and instead sending the transaction it might exclude is _more_ cpu expensive.
 486 2013-09-13 09:07:48 <ThomasV> oh got it :)
 487 2013-09-13 09:07:57 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well there are also the pci-e ones which have much much faster cpus .. but $4k.
 488 2013-09-13 09:08:08 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: also, the protocol does allow you to oversend (IIRC)
 489 2013-09-13 09:08:36 <gmaxwell> (I was pretty sure of that but I have a vague feeling I got yelled at for saying that before)
 490 2013-09-13 09:09:00 <ThomasV> I am considering adding bloom filter requests to electrum clients; because the other method to check for completeness (hashtree of addresses) isn't going to happen soon
 491 2013-09-13 09:10:07 <gmaxwell> petertodd: and I expect the tools for the pcie ones are more modern and easier to deal with, they're ppc and not i386 for one.
 492 2013-09-13 09:10:26 <gmaxwell> (multiple PPC cores that are interlocked and do voting!)
 493 2013-09-13 09:10:28 <petertodd> ThomasV: Bloom is no guarantee of completeness though; you can always lie and not give the client tx's that should have matched the filter.
 494 2013-09-13 09:10:39 <ThomasV> petertodd: I know
 495 2013-09-13 09:11:16 <petertodd> ThomasV: IMO for now electrum is the better model actually, provided the servers crypto-sign the information they give clients so fraud proofs can be made if they lie.
 496 2013-09-13 09:11:22 CheckDavid has joined
 497 2013-09-13 09:11:40 <ThomasV> petertodd: but it is still better than trusting an Electrum server, because the node serving the bloom filter does not know which addresses you are interested in
 498 2013-09-13 09:12:03 digitalmagus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 499 2013-09-13 09:12:14 <petertodd> ThomasV: Apply the bloom filter to the UTXO set instead.
 500 2013-09-13 09:12:21 digitalmagus has joined
 501 2013-09-13 09:12:26 <petertodd> ThomasV: Then crypto-sign the set of tx's returned.
 502 2013-09-13 09:13:00 <ThomasV> yes I thought about that, but that would be expensive (bloom filtering the utxo set)
 503 2013-09-13 09:13:01 <SomeoneWeird> hrmmm, do i remember correctly that oauth's creator started a new auth scheme thingy?
 504 2013-09-13 09:13:04 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Nice!
 505 2013-09-13 09:14:02 <ThomasV> petertodd: in that case, I might as well implement the hashtree of addresses (without merged mining) and crypto-sign the hash
 506 2013-09-13 09:14:13 <ThomasV> that's more efficient I guess
 507 2013-09-13 09:14:13 <petertodd> ThomasV: Doesn't need to be expensive: maintain a radix tree of the UTXO set, and apply your filter in some fashion starting at the top of the tree. Of course, it doesn't need to be a bloom filter, just a set of prefixes really.
 508 2013-09-13 09:14:23 <petertodd> ThomasV: Ha, yes exactly.
 509 2013-09-13 09:14:52 <ThomasV> when I said that hashtree isn't going to happen soon, I was refering to merged mining
 510 2013-09-13 09:15:15 <gmaxwell> petertodd: http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-PCIe-CRYPTOGRAPHIC-COPROCESSOR-FC-4765-41U9987-45D6048-45D7948-/140914671809?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20cf2b40c1
 511 2013-09-13 09:15:28 <petertodd> ThomasV: Yeah, but on the other hand there is Python code already that you can us for electrum servers.
 512 2013-09-13 09:15:33 fanquake has joined
 513 2013-09-13 09:16:44 <petertodd> gmaxwell: was looking at that earlier; did you notice how one of the cheaper ones cautioned that the inside had a material made out of mercury containing polyurethane? must be some insane security shield material
 514 2013-09-13 09:17:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: though honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't just write some code for one then send some IBM research an email and get one for free.
 515 2013-09-13 09:17:06 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 516 2013-09-13 09:17:17 <gmaxwell> s/research/researcher/
 517 2013-09-13 09:17:42 <gmaxwell> it's interesting that the pcie ones have a usb host connector on them
 518 2013-09-13 09:18:17 <ThomasV> petertodd: which code?
 519 2013-09-13 09:19:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: True, although I keep figuring out ways to do stuff without that hardware anyway.
 520 2013-09-13 09:19:54 Guest9446 has left ()
 521 2013-09-13 09:20:09 <petertodd> ThomasV: Mark Friedenbach's stuff: http://utxo.tumblr.com/
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 524 2013-09-13 09:22:11 <ThomasV> petertodd: is that implementatino efficient? I also implemented the radix tree of utxo on a branch of electrum-server, but it was slow
 525 2013-09-13 09:22:37 <ThomasV> didn't have time to optimize it much
 526 2013-09-13 09:22:55 <petertodd> ThomasV: Mark's stuff uses a lot of high-level Python stuff, so I really doubt it's efficient, but the underlying idea can be.
 527 2013-09-13 09:24:10 moarrr has quit ()
 528 2013-09-13 09:24:21 <ThomasV> I have no doubt the underlying idea can be :)
 529 2013-09-13 09:28:23 <ThomasV> btw, if anyone is interested, electrum meeting next week in barcelona: https://wiki.unsystem.net/index.php/Calafou/Electrum_Meeting
 530 2013-09-13 09:29:33 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: sort of short notice! :P
 531 2013-09-13 09:29:55 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: oh, it's been in the forum for weeks
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 534 2013-09-13 09:31:51 <petertodd> ThomasV: So right now, are connections to Electrum servers SSL encrypted? Do clients query multiple servers?
 535 2013-09-13 09:32:17 guruvan has joined
 536 2013-09-13 09:33:29 <ThomasV> petertodd: it uses ssl by default. version 1.9 queries multiple servers for headers, in order to make sure it is on the longest chain. It queries a single server for transactions, and it verifies the transactinos with spv
 537 2013-09-13 09:34:28 <petertodd> ThomasV: How are the SSL certs checked? You can easily get your client to re-check for transactions right? What do you mean by "verifies the transactinos with spv"?
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 541 2013-09-13 09:36:40 <ThomasV> petertodd: the SSL certs are not checked. it verifies transactions against the merkle root hash
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 544 2013-09-13 09:38:29 <ThomasV> so, it checks that transactions are not made up, but it does not have a proof of completeness (that the server sent all transactions)
 545 2013-09-13 09:38:57 <gmaxwell> http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2382204 The most dangerous code in the world: validating SSL certificates in non-browser software
 546 2013-09-13 09:38:59 <petertodd> ThomasV: Hmm, it'd be good to have some means of checking those certs; if you do that you've got better security than bitcoinj SPV has.
 547 2013-09-13 09:39:28 <gmaxwell> petertodd: or at least orthorgonal security.
 548 2013-09-13 09:39:32 <nsh> orthogonal?
 549 2013-09-13 09:39:41 <gmaxwell> It has different weaknesses.
 550 2013-09-13 09:39:43 <petertodd> ThomasV: Oh, can I connect to a Electrum server through Tor, specifically one that is a hidden service?
 551 2013-09-13 09:39:57 <gmaxwell> Though checking multiple servers would make it closer to "better"
 552 2013-09-13 09:40:09 * nsh is not sure security can be cast into an orthogonal basis
 553 2013-09-13 09:40:18 <nsh> if that were possible, we'd have a much easier job
 554 2013-09-13 09:40:27 <gmaxwell> nsh: sure, you just compute the PCA of it.
 555 2013-09-13 09:40:42 <nsh> :)
 556 2013-09-13 09:40:52 <ThomasV> petertodd: some people use it through Tor. I cannot confirm that this works currently on git master
 557 2013-09-13 09:40:52 <gmaxwell> once you've normalize the eigenvectors they're orthorgonal unless the data was totally colinerar to begin with
 558 2013-09-13 09:41:30 <nsh> there are various assumptions about the algebraic properties of the underlying geometry in question that merit scrutiny :)
 559 2013-09-13 09:41:46 <gmaxwell> nsh: SPV is "I can connect to a bunch of nodes, and I'll reach at least one honest one, and I can trust that the expensive to create blocks headers it shows me means something"
 560 2013-09-13 09:42:13 * nsh nods
 561 2013-09-13 09:42:24 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: if you compute the PCA of the distribution of bitcoin loss reports, I guess failure to do proper wallet backups is the eigen direction
 562 2013-09-13 09:42:25 <petertodd> ThomasV: Well, so long as you have SOCKS support you should be good re: tor.
 563 2013-09-13 09:42:30 <gmaxwell> nsh: electrum is currently "I connect to this one named server well known, and it'll tell me about the real chain and I can trust that the expensive to create block headers it shos me mean somthing"
 564 2013-09-13 09:42:40 <nsh> hmm
 565 2013-09-13 09:43:26 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: next release will have multiple servers, it's in master already
 566 2013-09-13 09:43:29 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Mainly what I was getting at, is with SSL/hidden-services you can tell if an attacker controls your internet connection, something a SPV node can't do. (with regard to hiding transactions from you)
 567 2013-09-13 09:43:34 <gmaxwell> nsh: the difference is smaller than it may seem: current spv clients have really limited networking support, anything based on bitcoinj only connects to whatever the dns seeds tell it. :(
 568 2013-09-13 09:43:47 <nsh> not ideal
 569 2013-09-13 09:44:34 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: Yea, I think with that I could say you were better than bitcoinj, well, maybe if you also had certificate validation. (right now you'd both suffer from a client local network isolator with hashpower).
 570 2013-09-13 09:44:53 <gmaxwell> I note that it would only take 80 days of the current difficulty to replace the entire chain.
 571 2013-09-13 09:45:12 <gmaxwell> (so probably more like 60 days of the current hashrate)
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 573 2013-09-13 09:45:49 <gmaxwell> I should probably write code to graph that.
 574 2013-09-13 09:46:13 <petertodd> ThomasV: Keep in mind that SPV's relyance on there being lots of "honest" nodes out there is really dangerous too - it's easy to setup a relatively small number of dishonest ones and DoS attack everyone else to push clients to you.
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 577 2013-09-13 09:48:07 <petertodd> ThomasV: At least with electrum, you know who you are connecting too.
 578 2013-09-13 09:48:12 <ThomasV> petertodd: I'm not sure I understand that attack. A SPV client needs to meet only one honest node
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 582 2013-09-13 09:48:46 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: if there are 100000 dishonest 'nodes' (really sybils in front of a single dishonest one), and 10000 honest nodes, and you dos attack out half the honest nodes....
 583 2013-09-13 09:48:58 <gmaxwell> what is the chance you pick a single honest one if you only connect to four?
 584 2013-09-13 09:49:45 <gmaxwell> 1-(100000/105000.)^4 = 17.7%
 585 2013-09-13 09:49:57 TD has joined
 586 2013-09-13 09:51:23 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: sure, but how is that specific to SPV?
 587 2013-09-13 09:52:13 <petertodd> ThomasV: SPV nodes trust their peers to relay them transactions for instance.
 588 2013-09-13 09:53:12 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: just the implications if you've successfully isolated. E.g. I can send you a 10 million BTC payment, confirm it, etc. In any case, its an attack model that your design is somewhat stronger against.
 589 2013-09-13 09:53:23 <gmaxwell> in exchange for being weaker against some other ones.
 590 2013-09-13 09:54:25 <ThomasV> I don't get it. if you can only connect to dishonest nodes, why is SµPV weaker that a full node (not talking about electrum here)
 591 2013-09-13 09:54:33 <ThomasV> sorry, SPV
 592 2013-09-13 09:55:09 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: ah we we mostly just contrasting the electrum and p2p-spv model.  But what I said above was a full node / spv contrast.
 593 2013-09-13 09:55:30 <gmaxwell> Once isolated a spv client will believe things that aren't even possibly valid: I can spend coins that don't exist or that belong to other people.
 594 2013-09-13 09:56:28 <gmaxwell> so e.g. an attack which formerly would have only been intersting if I put thousands of my own btc at risk, becomes something that can be done for 30 BTC (cost of a block and botnets to proxy)
 595 2013-09-13 09:56:32 <ThomasV> oh, I get it, you mean coins that are in the "valid" part of the chain, the part that the dishonest nodes have not rewritten
 596 2013-09-13 09:56:37 <petertodd> ThomasV: Note that because you can spend coins that don't exist, it's really easy to mine one fake block, or series of blocks, and use that effort against many targets at once. (actually an argument against address reuse too if you think about it a bit)
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 598 2013-09-13 09:57:23 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: or dont even exist at all.  against full nodes when you isolate you can't even use the blocks you mined in isolation to 'pay' in your attacks due to the 100 block limit.
 599 2013-09-13 09:57:31 <ThomasV> yes, I see
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 601 2013-09-13 09:58:01 <gmaxwell> It's just the tradeoff that exists. Someone could do recursive checks but because of how transactions are formated they are really expensive. :(
 602 2013-09-13 09:58:28 <TD> well, i'm not sure it's "really easy" to mine a fake chain. theoretically SPV clients can show warnings if the chain doesn't seem temporally legitimate
 603 2013-09-13 09:58:37 <ThomasV> ok, I'm offf or lunch.
 604 2013-09-13 09:58:41 <TD> they don't, today, because it's not an attack that's been reported in the wild. but it's theoretically possible.
 605 2013-09-13 09:58:47 <TD> enjoy!
 606 2013-09-13 09:58:59 <ThomasV> TD: yes, if blocks are 2 hours apart :)
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 608 2013-09-13 09:59:07 <ThomasV> that would be suspicious
 609 2013-09-13 09:59:13 <gmaxwell> TD: it's been harder and easier. At one point in time you could have purchased about 20% of the network hashpower for about 115% PPS.
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 611 2013-09-13 09:59:26 <gmaxwell> but now if you can do that its not known to the public.
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 613 2013-09-13 09:59:59 <gmaxwell> TD: though if you're a powerful enough network attacker you can isolate a pool too, though that doesn't let you put complete gibberish in blocks (thankfully)
 614 2013-09-13 10:00:06 rdymac has joined
 615 2013-09-13 10:00:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yet that could change too as people have piles of ASICs that aren't making the profit they used too.
 616 2013-09-13 10:00:42 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I think it mostly changed because people who wanted to purchase money laundering didn't like the public attention. I know that some parties are still selling hashpower, but I don't know how much of it.
 617 2013-09-13 10:01:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Funny how CoinJoin will help that problem...
 618 2013-09-13 10:02:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Still, it'd be very bad if a bunch of otherwise too-power-hungry-to-run ASICs got resold to people who could make them worthwhile at a >100% PPS.
 619 2013-09-13 10:02:54 <gmaxwell> TD: petertodd was saying to ThomasV that once the electrum code that connects to multiple servers is out, if it also stars validating certs it'll arguably have a stronger security model than the p2p-spv nodes. So we were talking about some of the attacks that can happen with a sybils or a powerful network attacker.
 620 2013-09-13 10:03:05 <phantomcircuit> i like how the stratum merkle_branch is pretty close to totally undocumented
 621 2013-09-13 10:03:29 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: weird you are the second person to complain about that to me in the last two hours!
 622 2013-09-13 10:03:33 <TD> well, unless there are only a handful of servers in which case it's much easier to potentially hack or coerce most of them
 623 2013-09-13 10:03:54 <TD> i'd like to see electrum stop developing features that could just as well go into the main p2p protocol. it'd be good to unify all the effort around a single protocol, given that they do basically the same thing
 624 2013-09-13 10:04:24 <TD> we could add TLS support to bitcoind. that'd be a big step. if only to piss off the NSA, you don't even need certificates for ste p1
 625 2013-09-13 10:04:26 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, weird
 626 2013-09-13 10:04:47 <petertodd> TD: As opposed to a handful of DNS seeds?
 627 2013-09-13 10:05:00 <gmaxwell> TD: different threat model though, without hacking anything you can buy botnet time to proxy many thousands of IPs while connection slot filling the honest nodes and make it almost certian that some nodes will connect only to your sybils
 628 2013-09-13 10:05:26 <gmaxwell> TD: I know .. but oy. It's such a big protocol with a big attack surface area.. and all sorts of fun dos vectors. :-/
 629 2013-09-13 10:05:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, it's worth making clear that of course electrum server's can be DoS'd too, but you know: they go down!
 630 2013-09-13 10:05:41 <TD> just like the bitcoin protocol then. they'll go well together :)
 631 2013-09-13 10:05:44 <gmaxwell> but also well known at least.
 632 2013-09-13 10:06:09 <TD> petertodd: yes. i'd like to fix spv wallets to not rely on dns seeds so heavily. but sigh, so much to do, so little time to do it all in ....
 633 2013-09-13 10:06:21 * gmaxwell toasts to that
 634 2013-09-13 10:06:46 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ok i get it
 635 2013-09-13 10:06:53 <phantomcircuit> it's the top most possible branch
 636 2013-09-13 10:07:00 <phantomcircuit> so you can just merge everything together
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 642 2013-09-13 10:13:04 <Vinnie_win> are there some base58 encoding test vectors somewhere
 643 2013-09-13 10:14:08 <Vinnie_win> oh look at that base58_tests.cpp!
 644 2013-09-13 10:14:09 <petertodd> Vinnie_win: bitcoin/src/tests/data/base58-something
 645 2013-09-13 10:14:20 <Vinnie_win> yucky boost unit tests
 646 2013-09-13 10:14:52 <Vinnie_win> Oh..the vectors are in base58_encode_decode.json
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 648 2013-09-13 10:16:28 <Vinnie_win> bitcoin repo looking nice these days
 649 2013-09-13 10:16:41 <Vinnie_win> I see a lot of work has gone into grooming it
 650 2013-09-13 10:17:39 <sipa> Vinnie_win: i was pleasantly surprised how well git-subtree dealt with updating the leveldb tree after oretty much rewriting the subtree repo :)
 651 2013-09-13 10:17:42 <sipa> *pretty
 652 2013-09-13 10:17:49 <Vinnie_win> git-subtree is the best
 653 2013-09-13 10:18:04 <Vinnie_win> I'm working on bringing the entire boost tree into our repo so that everyone is forced to use the same version
 654 2013-09-13 10:18:27 <Vinnie_win> So...whats this business with the big endian / little endian conversions in src/base58.h ?
 655 2013-09-13 10:18:28 <sipa> that'd be a bridge too far for me :0
 656 2013-09-13 10:18:38 <sipa> Vinnie_win: the source code only supports little-endian
 657 2013-09-13 10:18:43 <Vinnie_win> I was just gonna ask
 658 2013-09-13 10:18:51 <Vinnie_win> because thats how it looks lol
 659 2013-09-13 10:19:11 <sipa> there have been attempts to fix that, but without access to actual hardware, that's pretty hard :)
 660 2013-09-13 10:19:20 <Vinnie_win> but why does it say "convert big endian to little endian?" Is that because of how CBigNum / BN whatever stores its data?
 661 2013-09-13 10:19:29 <sipa> let me see
 662 2013-09-13 10:19:52 <Vinnie_win> oh hm... maybe EncodeBase58 assumes the data comes from the network
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 664 2013-09-13 10:20:06 <sipa> no it's just how the base58 format is defined
 665 2013-09-13 10:20:22 <Vinnie_win> but it looks like EncodeBase58 expects the caller to provide "big endian"
 666 2013-09-13 10:20:24 <sipa> it works by receiving a byte array, and interpreting it as a little-endian number
 667 2013-09-13 10:20:28 <sipa> oh
 668 2013-09-13 10:20:34 <sipa> or the other way around, could be
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 670 2013-09-13 10:21:05 <Vinnie_win> Okay just a reminder for me...Intel is little endian right? and Network Byte Order is big endian?
 671 2013-09-13 10:21:32 <Vinnie_win> well what the heck I'll just code it up and if its backwards I'll flip it and match the test vectors.
 672 2013-09-13 10:21:33 <sipa> anyway, that has nothing to do with endian-neutralness
 673 2013-09-13 10:21:34 <sipa> that's just how base58 is defined
 674 2013-09-13 10:21:35 <sipa> correct
 675 2013-09-13 10:21:49 <sipa> but the latter is irrelevant for us
 676 2013-09-13 10:21:50 <sipa> except for IP addresses
 677 2013-09-13 10:22:07 <Vinnie_win> Is base58 defined differently than other radixes?
 678 2013-09-13 10:22:21 <Vinnie_win> I mean, is Base64 any different? Does each radix have its own set of rules or something? I'm trying to write a generic set of templtes
 679 2013-09-13 10:22:23 <Vinnie_win> *templates
 680 2013-09-13 10:22:35 <sipa> base64 is different as you can just convert groups of bytes to characters
 681 2013-09-13 10:22:40 <sipa> as it's a power of two
 682 2013-09-13 10:22:45 <sipa> so it realigns every few bytes
 683 2013-09-13 10:22:49 <Vinnie_win> But conceptuall its still the same
 684 2013-09-13 10:22:53 <Vinnie_win> *conceptually
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 686 2013-09-13 10:23:04 <gmaxwell> <3 base64
 687 2013-09-13 10:23:05 <sipa> 58 is not, so you need to convert the entire byte sequence at once
 688 2013-09-13 10:23:25 <sipa> yes, you could implement base64 the exact same way, but it'd be horribly inefficient
 689 2013-09-13 10:23:37 <Vinnie_win> I'm more concerned with have something that is general than performance
 690 2013-09-13 10:23:43 <sipa> of course
 691 2013-09-13 10:24:10 <sipa> but base58 is exactly the same endian-wise as base64, i assume
 692 2013-09-13 10:24:18 <Vinnie_win> Thats what I was wondering.
 693 2013-09-13 10:24:41 <sipa> interpret the data as a big-endian integer, and convert it to a big-endian base-64/58 string
 694 2013-09-13 10:24:52 <Vinnie_win> Oh
 695 2013-09-13 10:24:59 <Vinnie_win> I see
 696 2013-09-13 10:25:12 <Vinnie_win> Thats not how I'm storing my unsigned integers internally
 697 2013-09-13 10:25:15 <sipa> which, due to bitcoin's internal utility classes, means byteswapping twice :)
 698 2013-09-13 10:25:20 <Vinnie_win> same here lol
 699 2013-09-13 10:26:02 <Vinnie_win> Oh..these base 64 test vectors look very benign I will start with those.
 700 2013-09-13 10:27:14 <sipa> Vinnie_win: i think i took those from the original RFC that defines base64
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 704 2013-09-13 10:37:06 <sipa> specific to base58 is that it encodes zero prefix bytes to prefix '1' characters
 705 2013-09-13 10:37:21 <sipa> while base64 uses === characters to pad at the end
 706 2013-09-13 10:37:24 <Vinnie_win> I have a traits type that my encoder lets you hook
 707 2013-09-13 10:37:43 <Vinnie_win> so the ugly differences can be tucked away behind a wall of intimidating compiler errors
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 717 2013-09-13 10:50:49 <gesell> anyone know where the siignature for http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.5/SHA256SUMS.asc/view is?
 718 2013-09-13 10:51:11 <gesell> fyi it should probably be linked to from the download page on bitcoin.org.
 719 2013-09-13 10:51:36 <gesell> and ill cross my fingers that A) there is a key to be found easily somewhere and B) its on a trusted SSL connection
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 726 2013-09-13 10:57:40 <gavinandresen> I've been thinking hard about transaction fees:  https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/6548612
 727 2013-09-13 11:00:57 * Vinnie_win reads
 728 2013-09-13 11:01:01 <TD> yay
 729 2013-09-13 11:01:09 <TD> good evening, by the way
 730 2013-09-13 11:01:16 * TD reads too
 731 2013-09-13 11:01:30 <Vinnie_win> gavinandresen: Looks professional
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 733 2013-09-13 11:02:04 <Vinnie_win> This includes the logic for having the client figure out a median fee in response to changing conditions
 734 2013-09-13 11:02:42 <TD> gavinandresen: i see no reference to what SPV clients should do
 735 2013-09-13 11:03:03 <gavinandresen> TD: I didn't try to solve that problem
 736 2013-09-13 11:03:16 <gavinandresen> TD: … that would be a whole 'nother gist
 737 2013-09-13 11:03:35 <TD> gavinandresen: also, right now most users attach a fee all the time even if the tx would have very high priority from consuming coin age, because the "free area" in blocks is an arbitrary 27kb or something like that
 738 2013-09-13 11:03:41 <TD> so in practice it's always full, even if the block is not itself full
 739 2013-09-13 11:04:32 <TD> this makes the free transaction logic fairly useless in practice. a simpler formatting in CreateBlock seems essential to make fees logical again. it sure would be nice to go back to a world where casual/lite users don't have to pay any fees because their coin age consumption is always high enough
 740 2013-09-13 11:04:42 <gavinandresen> TD: Right, that's why I estimate fee separately frompriority
 741 2013-09-13 11:05:09 <gavinandresen> … why I'll rewrite the free transaction logic.
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 743 2013-09-13 11:05:25 <TD> cool
 744 2013-09-13 11:05:59 <gavinandresen> I'm estimating:  "how much priority do you really need to get into that 27K area" (based on observing other 0-fee transactions that made it in)
 745 2013-09-13 11:07:00 <TD> could you export the result of estimatefees via a new p2p message?
 746 2013-09-13 11:07:10 <gavinandresen> RE: SPV clients:  I've got two thoughts on that.  Thought 1:  add a service bit "PROVIDES_FEE_ESTIMATES" (or whatever), and SPV clients ask a few of their peers for estimates (and ignores outlier peers)
 747 2013-09-13 11:07:15 <TD> yeah
 748 2013-09-13 11:07:30 <gavinandresen> yeah
 749 2013-09-13 11:08:09 <TD> rather than a service bit, perhaps the right approach is to just bump the protocol version number. *or*, bump the protocol version once, and add a new behaviour which is that any unknown message generates an "error" response. then you can just blast out a new feature message to a peer and immediately learn if it understood or not.
 750 2013-09-13 11:08:28 <TD> then service bits would only be consumed for features where you might need to seek out nodes that support it by looking at addr broadcasts
 751 2013-09-13 11:08:36 <gavinandresen> Thought 2:  transaction.version=2 messages that include previn values which are signed (somehow) by the transaction creator and are dropped by full nodes if the previn values are not correct or signature is wrong.
 752 2013-09-13 11:09:16 <TD> yes that was proposed by alan reiner some time ago. it would help trezor too. however, for it to be reliable it'd be a hard forking change.
 753 2013-09-13 11:09:32 <TD> i'm all for it - it's complementary to a quicker/less robust approach based on polling peers
 754 2013-09-13 11:09:44 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: did you try to estimate the shape of the distribution of P(included in the next N blocks|...)
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 756 2013-09-13 11:09:51 <gavinandresen> TD: RE: service bits / p2p messages :  mmm.  I still claim to know next-to-nuthin about network programming, so if somebody else writes that code I'd be happy
 757 2013-09-13 11:10:16 <TD> heh
 758 2013-09-13 11:10:26 <gavinandresen> TD: why hard-forking?  Wouldn't have to be a blockchain rule.
 759 2013-09-13 11:10:44 <gavinandresen> TD: current code already refuses to relay transactions if version number is unknown….
 760 2013-09-13 11:11:03 <TD> well, the point is to be able to prove to a node what the fees were for some transactions over the last N blocks, i thought?
 761 2013-09-13 11:11:03 <gavinandresen> … so only nodes that understood tx.version==2 would relay/mine
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 763 2013-09-13 11:11:22 <gesell> (on ui imho would be to turn on by default, add an options drop down on transaction window)
 764 2013-09-13 11:11:23 <TD> if it's not hard forking, then someone who is mining can embed version==2 transactions that don't actually attest to the correct values.
 765 2013-09-13 11:11:30 <gavinandresen> No, I'm saying the transaction message broadcast would carry extra data that wasn't stored int he blockchain
 766 2013-09-13 11:11:34 <TD> oh, i see
 767 2013-09-13 11:11:40 <TD> but then how would nodes see them?
 768 2013-09-13 11:11:50 <TD> SPV clients don't typically stick around on the network very long
 769 2013-09-13 11:11:55 <gavinandresen> See a tx.version==2 on the network:  check signature and previn values.  See it in a block:  "okey dokey"
 770 2013-09-13 11:12:13 <gavinandresen> Ah.  So SPV clients wouldn't have a chance to get a reasonable estimate themselves.
 771 2013-09-13 11:12:20 <TD> no. remember they bloom filter tx broadcasts
 772 2013-09-13 11:12:31 <gavinandresen> Mmm. right.
 773 2013-09-13 11:12:38 <TD> now, if alan's suggestion is adopted and a hard forking change is made (as i said, this helps trezor too), then we can do something like this
 774 2013-09-13 11:12:56 <TD> 1) spv wallet: select a random 4 byte prefix (or 6 or 8 bytes or whatever)
 775 2013-09-13 11:13:21 <TD> 2) send it to the remote nodes in a new message that says, "show me proofs of transactions matching this hash prefix that are version 2 or higher"
 776 2013-09-13 11:13:32 <TD> (can reuse a bloom filter too, i think)
 777 2013-09-13 11:13:46 <TD> 3) remote node rummages through its recent blocks looking for such transactions and sends them back with merkle branches
 778 2013-09-13 11:14:19 <TD> 4) spv node verifies the proof and now has a random sampling of transactions that got confirmed and what their fees were. does this really help? well, not really because you don't know when the tx was made/broadcast. but i suppose that data *could* be added to the tx as well, also signed (but not in the chain)
 779 2013-09-13 11:14:28 <TD> and stored in parallel ... hmmm
 780 2013-09-13 11:14:41 <gavinandresen> yeah….  ummm…..  after we get our mythical anti-DoS code fired up and working....
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 782 2013-09-13 11:15:15 <TD> yes, calculating the proofs would be somewhat expensive. there might be a fix. the trick is to ensure the remote node can't pick and choose the transactions it presents
 783 2013-09-13 11:15:20 <TD> to try and bias the fees
 784 2013-09-13 11:15:25 <gavinandresen> If the SPV node is trying to conserve bandwidth…and it is… then it seems like asking N random peers for estimates is the better way to go
 785 2013-09-13 11:15:47 <TD> if the protocol forced a particular selection based on some deterministic criteria, it could potentially be calculated once on the fly and served for all nodes, so there's no extra DoS potential
 786 2013-09-13 11:15:50 <TD> i need to ponder this some more
 787 2013-09-13 11:15:57 <gavinandresen> Or even asking a centralized service (shudder!) or services for estimates
 788 2013-09-13 11:15:59 <TD> yeah, for v1 certainly just polling peers works
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 790 2013-09-13 11:17:04 <TD> alans proposal was to include the value alongside the script when the tx is signed. you know how the output script is placed in the input slot when signature hashes are calculated. if you put value+script, and that is enforced with a hard forking rule, then you can know the fees a tx is paying just from looking at the tx
 791 2013-09-13 11:17:18 <TD> and that is useful for trezor to avoid a virus on the computer spending all your money to fees without you realising
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 793 2013-09-13 11:17:33 <TD> currently trezor has to stream all the input transactions to the device on the fly so it can calculate that .... slow and very complicated :(
 794 2013-09-13 11:18:41 <TD> re: relay bandwidth. yes imho the right approach is for the user to be specifying the resource constraints on a node, and for the node to do the most valuable work it can fit inside those resource contraints
 795 2013-09-13 11:18:50 <gavinandresen> TD: yes, if I could go back in time I'd tell Satoshi to do that, it is darn inconvenient to have to look up the previous transaction to find input values
 796 2013-09-13 11:19:00 <TD> so rather than the user specifying some indirect number, they should just say "use no more than 1 mbit/sec" and then the relay fees are calculated based off that
 797 2013-09-13 11:19:29 <TD> yeah it sucks he didn't do that. still, it'd be an uncontroversial upgrade. we've done hard forks before. it could be done again.
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 799 2013-09-13 11:20:59 <TD> for the network side, what i'd do is
 800 2013-09-13 11:21:21 <TD> 1) add an "error" message that contains a numeric code and  a string. it would be generated if an unknown message is received.
 801 2013-09-13 11:21:41 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 802 2013-09-13 11:21:46 <TD> 2) add an "estimatefees" command that returns an "estimatedfees" message containing the two nums you're already calculating
 803 2013-09-13 11:21:54 <TD> and i think that's probably all that's required on the bitcoind side
 804 2013-09-13 11:22:16 <TD> it's more complicated on the bitcoinj side of course ....
 805 2013-09-13 11:22:33 <TD> oh yes. child pays for parent.
 806 2013-09-13 11:22:43 johnsoft has joined
 807 2013-09-13 11:22:44 <TD> ideally, end users would not ever pay fees. it results in weird looking balances and is a generally poor ux
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 809 2013-09-13 11:22:58 <TD> if child-pays-for-parent is done, then only merchants have to run the fee estimation algorithms and so on.
 810 2013-09-13 11:23:13 <Vinnie_win> can I just do the base64 encoding the "long" way? using mod and div?
 811 2013-09-13 11:23:19 <TD> so perhaps as part of this work, doing a careful review of peter's patch is a good idea
 812 2013-09-13 11:23:33 <gavinandresen> mmm.  child-pays-for-parent is a problem when crossed with a memory-limited memory pool, though.  Because if the child is 0-fee low-priority it might not be in your mempool, so parent is an orphan.....
 813 2013-09-13 11:24:04 <gavinandresen> I came to the conclusion that a proper child-pays-for-parent implementation needs a "txgroup" message of some sort
 814 2013-09-13 11:24:19 <TD> well, nodes will already query to find children of orphans
 815 2013-09-13 11:24:32 <TD> the issue is not the network layer i think, but how you implement the algorithm to decide what to throw out and what to keep
 816 2013-09-13 11:24:32 <gavinandresen> not if they've already seen them, I believe.
 817 2013-09-13 11:24:58 <TD> oh, right, mapInv or whatever it's called. well, i guess if a tx is evicted from the mempool it can also be erased from the relevant map that suppresses duplicate queries
 818 2013-09-13 11:25:05 macboz has joined
 819 2013-09-13 11:26:48 <gavinandresen> In any case, child-pays-for-parent is orthogonal to better fee estimation; and if the fee estimation code works well, then child-pays-for-parent is less critical.
 820 2013-09-13 11:27:22 <TD> yeah, sure. it just means we'll have to explain to users why sometimes they randomly have to include a fee. from the users perspective, there won't seem to be much logic to it and fees will fluctuate unpredictably.
 821 2013-09-13 11:27:35 <TD> businesses are better equipped to absorb that complexity. but i agree that in the end they're orthogonal
 822 2013-09-13 11:27:36 <gavinandresen> We probably should tweak the payment protocol so the merchant can specify an amount that they'll pay in fees
 823 2013-09-13 11:27:55 <TD> given that there's no merchant/customer split in bitcoin
 824 2013-09-13 11:28:04 <TD> what would the wallet do with that parameter?
 825 2013-09-13 11:28:11 <gavinandresen> (e.g. price is 0.1 BTC, but you can send me 0.09 and pay 0.01 in fees, or whatever)
 826 2013-09-13 11:28:38 <gavinandresen> So user would pay 0.1 BTC, merchant would get 0.09, miners get 0.01, everybody is happy.
 827 2013-09-13 11:28:54 <TD> ah, i see
 828 2013-09-13 11:29:21 <TD> as long as the merchant can verify the fee was paid somehow, that works too
 829 2013-09-13 11:29:37 <TD> there would need to be an RPC on the server side "calculate fee" (unless the hard forking change is made)
 830 2013-09-13 11:30:12 <gavinandresen> Hmm?  Are you thinking merchants will be running SPV nodes?
 831 2013-09-13 11:30:23 <TD> some will. think street vendors, etc.
 832 2013-09-13 11:30:48 <TD> i mean the concept of "merchant" isn't really well defined in bitcoin
 833 2013-09-13 11:31:18 <TD> anyone can be a merchant. so yes, some will use SPV nodes. that's not inherently an issue though. you can always ask a remote peer to tell you the fees, if you don't have a way to calculate it just by looking at the tx
 834 2013-09-13 11:31:37 <TD> if the hard forking rule change is made, that's unnecessary. the sender of the tx can prove the fees are correct to you in the PaymentACK message.
 835 2013-09-13 11:32:50 <gavinandresen> Hard-fork is something I dont' want to think about for a while, and I'm still scared of opening up a Pandora's Box of people's wishlists.
 836 2013-09-13 11:33:14 i2pRelay has joined
 837 2013-09-13 11:33:15 <TD> wishlists are different from patches. if the timeline is determined by actually implemented code, then it becomes "put up or shut up" :)
 838 2013-09-13 11:33:30 aa has joined
 839 2013-09-13 11:33:32 <gavinandresen> true
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 841 2013-09-13 11:33:50 <TD> a lot of peoples cool hard forking ideas are quite hard to implement. txout value in sighash is relatively straightforward.
 842 2013-09-13 11:33:58 <gavinandresen> I was pleasantly surprised at the complate lack of drama at the 16 August hard fork.
 843 2013-09-13 11:33:59 <TD> but you're right that it's a somewhat intimidating idea ...
 844 2013-09-13 11:34:01 <TD> yeah
 845 2013-09-13 11:34:15 <TD> perhaps the suggestion of scheduling a hard fork every 12 months or whatever isn't so crazy after all :)
 846 2013-09-13 11:34:37 <gavinandresen> I like gmaxwell's idea of making releases expire after 12 months.
 847 2013-09-13 11:34:47 <gavinandresen> I'm not sure he likes it any more, though
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 849 2013-09-13 11:35:03 <TD> well, i'm not sure releases should expire. but saying we reserve the right to hard fork every 12 months doesn't seem too terrible. it sets expectations.
 850 2013-09-13 11:35:13 <TD> it doesn't have to actually be done if there's no changes people want to make
 851 2013-09-13 11:37:38 * TD -> lunch
 852 2013-09-13 11:37:49 * gavinandresen -> bed
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 858 2013-09-13 11:57:25 Mqrius_ has joined
 859 2013-09-13 11:58:03 <Mqrius_> My qt client is reporting a corrupt block database for the second time this week. Have there been more reports?
 860 2013-09-13 11:58:07 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, sipa, gavinandresen: JFYI, got another OSX corruption report in 0.8.4 @ BitPay office
 861 2013-09-13 11:58:26 <jgarzik> Mqrius_, yes
 862 2013-09-13 11:58:31 <jgarzik> Mqrius_, restart with -checklevel=2
 863 2013-09-13 11:59:39 xiangfu has joined
 864 2013-09-13 11:59:50 <Mqrius_> jgarzik: thanks
 865 2013-09-13 12:00:06 <xiangfu> where to report bug?
 866 2013-09-13 12:00:12 <xiangfu> about bitcoin-qt
 867 2013-09-13 12:00:24 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: #$)#@(*@#$)*%)(#!@$)(
 868 2013-09-13 12:00:41 <xiangfu> or is that normal that: when I import a private key. the bitcoin-qt always try to re-index the blocks.
 869 2013-09-13 12:00:44 <xiangfu> ?
 870 2013-09-13 12:01:30 <wumpus> xiangfu: there is a parameter for importprivkey to not reindex the blocks
 871 2013-09-13 12:01:32 <xiangfu> I try to import 3 private keys. after import. it shows under 'Addresses' not 'Receive'. then I have to close, open the bitcoin-qt again.
 872 2013-09-13 12:01:41 <xiangfu> after a new open. the bitcoin-qt always re-index the blocks.
 873 2013-09-13 12:01:54 <xiangfu> wumpus: ah. ok.
 874 2013-09-13 12:02:01 <wumpus> oh, wait, you don't mean the rescan
 875 2013-09-13 12:02:08 <xiangfu> wumpus: should read more help message.
 876 2013-09-13 12:02:08 <wumpus> but on next start? huh, that's weird
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 878 2013-09-13 12:04:43 <Animazing> quick multisig question. Who/What decides which multisig types are valid? If I were to send a 1 out of 5 will that be relayed/mined?
 879 2013-09-13 12:05:49 <Mqrius_> jgarzik: if I already clicked yes to "rebuild block database", can I cancel that and use the saved blocks/assume they're correct? Or do I have to wait now? Takes a few days on my slow PC.
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 882 2013-09-13 12:10:09 <Mqrius_> Or will the lower check level perhaps significantly speed up the block processing..?
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 884 2013-09-13 12:11:52 <xiangfu> wumpus: here is what I do. 1. run command (importprivkey xxxxx..xxx); 2. the address shows at 'Addresses' section not 'Receive' section; 3. I have to close and open the bitcoin-qt again then the address shows at 'Receive'; 4. after re-open the bitcon-qt try to re-index the blocks? is that normal?
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 886 2013-09-13 12:18:19 <jouke> Animazing: m-outof-3 are valid at the moment
 887 2013-09-13 12:19:07 <michagogo> [14:32:56] <gavinandresen> I was pleasantly surprised at the complate lack of drama at the 16 August hard fork.
 888 2013-09-13 12:19:07 <michagogo> ?
 889 2013-09-13 12:19:52 <michagogo> [14:57:01] <Mqrius_> My qt client is reporting a corrupt block database for the second time this week. Have there been more reports?
 890 2013-09-13 12:19:53 <michagogo> [14:57:29] <jgarzik> Mqrius_, restart with -checklevel=2
 891 2013-09-13 12:19:54 <jouke> michagogo: .6 and .7 clients can't accept the present blockchain
 892 2013-09-13 12:20:03 <jouke> michagogo: that is not related.
 893 2013-09-13 12:20:03 <michagogo> ...or just install 0.8.5...
 894 2013-09-13 12:20:07 <jouke> oh :P
 895 2013-09-13 12:20:19 Hans-Martin has joined
 896 2013-09-13 12:20:20 <michagogo> jouke: Why not?
 897 2013-09-13 12:20:30 <jouke> why what not?
 898 2013-09-13 12:20:40 <michagogo> [15:18:52] <jouke> michagogo: .6 and .7 clients can't accept the present blockchain
 899 2013-09-13 12:20:43 <Animazing> jouke: But who decides that
 900 2013-09-13 12:20:55 <Animazing> And would any others stop being propegated?
 901 2013-09-13 12:20:55 <jouke> Animazing: the nodes
 902 2013-09-13 12:20:59 <michagogo> Oh, wait... Is this just the march/may thing?
 903 2013-09-13 12:21:03 <jouke> michagogo: yes
 904 2013-09-13 12:21:24 <michagogo> It took until August for that to happen?!?
 905 2013-09-13 12:21:30 <jouke> :)
 906 2013-09-13 12:21:50 <Luke-Jr> jouke: that's not accurate
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 908 2013-09-13 12:21:56 <Luke-Jr> jouke: *older* .6 and .7 cannot
 909 2013-09-13 12:22:02 <Animazing> jouke: so you are saying 1 out of 5 won't propegate?
 910 2013-09-13 12:22:11 <michagogo> 0.7.2 is fine, right?
 911 2013-09-13 12:22:14 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: no
 912 2013-09-13 12:22:26 <michagogo> Oh?
 913 2013-09-13 12:22:36 <jouke> Animazing: I do indeed. You could use p2sh, but it is hard to spend.
 914 2013-09-13 12:22:47 <michagogo> Was 0.7.2 not the backport of 0.8.1's fix?
 915 2013-09-13 12:23:03 <Animazing> Weird thing is that a 1 out of 5 got included on testnet
 916 2013-09-13 12:23:07 <michagogo> (or something?)
 917 2013-09-13 12:23:23 <michagogo> Animazing: IIRC testnet skips IsStandard()
 918 2013-09-13 12:23:29 <Animazing> aaah ok that would explain a lot
 919 2013-09-13 12:23:57 <michagogo> It's commonly used for...testing...of new tracsaction types
 920 2013-09-13 12:24:08 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: you need at least v0.7.3rc2
 921 2013-09-13 12:24:19 <Animazing> yeah makes sense michagogo; thanks
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 924 2013-09-13 12:24:30 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: ideally latest, to address the more recent exploits too
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 926 2013-09-13 12:24:49 <hydromet> I'm curious why the Bitcoin Github master branch is version 0.8.2 (per https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/README.md) and why not, for example, bring 0.8.5 into the master?
 927 2013-09-13 12:25:04 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: master is ahead of 0.8.5
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 929 2013-09-13 12:25:12 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: 0.8.5 is backports
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 931 2013-09-13 12:25:31 <michagogo> hydromet: 0.8.3-0.8.5 are various patches and fixes
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 933 2013-09-13 12:25:59 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: 0.8.1 was as well :p
 934 2013-09-13 12:26:03 gangplank has quit (Ping timeout: 261 seconds)
 935 2013-09-13 12:26:07 <michagogo> Well, yeah
 936 2013-09-13 12:26:10 <jouke> Animazing: no IsStandard check
 937 2013-09-13 12:26:13 <hydromet> oh I see, thanks for pointing that out ... I'm also getting used to git (used to svn)
 938 2013-09-13 12:26:37 <Animazing> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L882
 939 2013-09-13 12:26:47 <Animazing> this makes it looks like I could use n-out of 20
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 941 2013-09-13 12:27:52 <michagogo> hydromet: 0.8.3-0.8.5 are various patches and fixes that were built as minor releases on top of 0.8.2
 942 2013-09-13 12:28:39 <hydromet> so if I want the latest security fixes from 0.8.4 plus the fixes made recently by gmaxwell et al with regard to the problem discovered earlier this week that required a temporary workaround (checklevel etc.), I can just pull the latest Master and compile from there?
 943 2013-09-13 12:28:55 <michagogo> hydromet: After 0.8.2, development has been proceeding on various new features, improvements, etc
 944 2013-09-13 12:29:11 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: 0.8.5 has all that
 945 2013-09-13 12:29:17 <michagogo> hydromet: get .5
 946 2013-09-13 12:29:39 <michagogo> Released this morning
 947 2013-09-13 12:30:08 WhiteLightGuruKK has joined
 948 2013-09-13 12:30:15 <hydromet> Luke-Jr: michagogo: great! I ask because a friend of mine (who I'm introducing to BTC) is not too technical so I'm trying to learn as much as I can and then help him learn (he reads articles and sends them to me!)
 949 2013-09-13 12:32:16 peetaur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 950 2013-09-13 12:32:18 <hydromet> my Git client shows 0.8.5 visually with two options: 1.) Checkout and 2.) "Pull origin/0.8.5 into master". I presume I want #1?
 951 2013-09-13 12:33:39 <Luke-Jr> probably
 952 2013-09-13 12:33:56 <Luke-Jr> though it's really v0.8.5 you want
 953 2013-09-13 12:34:00 <Luke-Jr> but same thing in this case
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 960 2013-09-13 12:46:16 <michagogo> Hmm
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 962 2013-09-13 12:50:16 <hydromet> michagogo: Hmm ???
 963 2013-09-13 12:50:25 <michagogo> Nvm
 964 2013-09-13 12:50:37 <hydromet> ok
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 984 2013-09-13 13:18:47 <sipa> Mqrius_: if you started a reindex, you have to finish it
 985 2013-09-13 13:18:59 <sipa> Mqrius_: reindexing wipes the block and chainstate databases
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 991 2013-09-13 13:21:55 <hydromet> sigh ... qmake generates an error for 0.8.5 which I just checked out (commit ef14a26)  - seems to be an OS X issue
 992 2013-09-13 13:22:18 <sipa> being?
 993 2013-09-13 13:22:35 <hydromet> In file included from src/qt/macdockiconhandler.mm:1:
 994 2013-09-13 13:22:42 <hydromet> src/qt/macdockiconhandler.h:5:10: fatal error: 'QMainWindow' file not found
 995 2013-09-13 13:22:50 <hydromet> #include <QMainWindow>
 996 2013-09-13 13:22:55 jgarzik has joined
 997 2013-09-13 13:23:28 <hydromet> kind of surprising since gavin is on OS X
 998 2013-09-13 13:23:48 <hydromet> but it could be me
 999 2013-09-13 13:23:57 <sipa> do you have Qt headers?
1000 2013-09-13 13:24:14 <sipa> have built bitcoin-qt before on that system?
1001 2013-09-13 13:24:38 michagogo has quit (Quit: שבת שלום וגמר חתימה טובה. (Yom Kippur))
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1003 2013-09-13 13:24:58 <hydromet> yes I have built bitcoin-qt on this system before, no problem (and with gavin's suggestions - I essentially paralleled him)
1004 2013-09-13 13:25:05 <sipa> ok
1005 2013-09-13 13:25:14 <sipa> can't help you :)
1006 2013-09-13 13:25:20 <hydromet> sipa: no problem, thanks
1007 2013-09-13 13:25:36 <hydromet> I think I saw gavin was going to sleep so I'll try later to ping him when he's back here
1008 2013-09-13 13:25:57 <sipa> yes
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1050 2013-09-13 14:00:29 <kuzetsa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2990 // http://picpaste.com/pics/bitcoin-0.8.5_nagbug.1379080270.png
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1057 2013-09-13 14:06:12 <jgarzik> ROFL
1058 2013-09-13 14:06:23 <jgarzik> some "correct horse battery staple" transactions just scrolled through blockchain.info
1059 2013-09-13 14:07:42 <chmod755> ^^^
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1061 2013-09-13 14:09:07 <kuzetsa> jgarzik: brain wallet ones or what?
1062 2013-09-13 14:09:59 <kuzetsa> oooh, there's a link to a reddit thread... heh
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1074 2013-09-13 14:34:26 <jgarzik> my my
1075 2013-09-13 14:34:39 <jgarzik> got ping'd randomly by RMS, asking about deterministic builds
1076 2013-09-13 14:34:48 <jgarzik> "is this important for the Free World?"
1077 2013-09-13 14:34:49 <TD> hah
1078 2013-09-13 14:34:56 <TD> well
1079 2013-09-13 14:35:00 <TD> gotta give the guy credit
1080 2013-09-13 14:35:08 <TD> he's still on the ball, even after all these years
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1085 2013-09-13 14:44:36 darsie has joined
1086 2013-09-13 14:44:40 <darsie> hi
1087 2013-09-13 14:45:16 btcbtc has joined
1088 2013-09-13 14:45:41 <darsie> Looks like my blockchain got damaged when I shut down the computer with ctrl-alt-F1, ctrl-alt-del (issuing shutdown -h now). Gotta resync.
1089 2013-09-13 14:45:56 Rubbledup has joined
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1091 2013-09-13 14:47:47 <darsie> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/ says 'Beta' in a blue box. Is bitcoin beta?
1092 2013-09-13 14:48:02 <runeks> darsie: Yes, it is.
1093 2013-09-13 14:48:05 <chmod755> yes
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1095 2013-09-13 14:48:15 <darsie> k
1096 2013-09-13 14:48:53 <darsie> Guess McDonald's won't use it then :).
1097 2013-09-13 14:49:13 cris has quit ()
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1099 2013-09-13 14:50:06 <darsie> When will it be stable?
1100 2013-09-13 14:50:23 <kuzetsa> that's not what beta means in this context
1101 2013-09-13 14:50:39 <darsie> ohh
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1105 2013-09-13 14:51:01 <kuzetsa> plenty of usable software is technically a beta version
1106 2013-09-13 14:51:49 <darsie> What does it mean?
1107 2013-09-13 14:52:44 <kuzetsa> fine example is how minecraft was playable for years before it went beta, and ultimately to the "release" version(s) where the mojang developers decided to reset the version numbering back to 1.0 for no real reason.
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1109 2013-09-13 14:53:47 <sipa> kuzetsa: not sure what you mean with your comment about nTimeoffset
1110 2013-09-13 14:54:00 <sipa> it's the measured time difference with your peers
1111 2013-09-13 14:54:03 dustjn has joined
1112 2013-09-13 14:54:38 <kuzetsa> sipa: there's a hardcoded zero with regards to time offset found in multiple places in util.cpp
1113 2013-09-13 14:54:48 <sipa> that's not hardcoded
1114 2013-09-13 14:54:56 <sipa> it's just a variable that is initialized to zero
1115 2013-09-13 14:55:01 <kuzetsa> oh
1116 2013-09-13 14:55:05 <sipa> but it's modified when data from the network arrives
1117 2013-09-13 14:55:24 <kuzetsa> it is?
1118 2013-09-13 14:55:59 <sipa> it should be :)
1119 2013-09-13 14:56:00 <kuzetsa> I saw no commentary to that effect when I skimmed around during my cursory glance / audit :(
1120 2013-09-13 14:56:24 <darsie> Does 0.8.5 have headers first/paralell downloading?
1121 2013-09-13 14:56:32 <sipa> in AddTimeData in util.cpp
1122 2013-09-13 14:56:36 <sipa> darsie: no, 0.9 maybe
1123 2013-09-13 14:57:18 <sipa> darsie: it's not even in master
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1126 2013-09-13 14:57:36 <darsie> ok
1127 2013-09-13 14:57:36 NightmareMoon is now known as Luna
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1129 2013-09-13 14:58:37 <kuzetsa> uhg, that function was hard to follow (before I gave up guessing how the "very few meaningful comments" code worked, I couldn't find any conspicuous timezone offset calculation or api call for similar detection in AddTimeData or any other function)
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1133 2013-09-13 14:59:50 <Luke-Jr> darsie: it's beta like the internet was until a decade or so ago :P
1134 2013-09-13 15:00:06 <darsie> hmm
1135 2013-09-13 15:01:00 <darsie> My blockchain download speed varies considerably. Does bitcoin switch the node it downloads from? Or is it the node changing the send rate?
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1141 2013-09-13 15:02:12 <kuzetsa> sipa: Thanks... I think? Only reason I was even looking at nTimeoffset was that I couldn't figure out where it had been initialized or set, and wasn't sure if it was local to AddTimeData()
1142 2013-09-13 15:02:13 <sipa> darsie: it downloads from whoever announces blocks
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1145 2013-09-13 15:02:37 <sipa> darsie: but requests only from one peer, and get often confused or stalled
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1147 2013-09-13 15:02:43 <darsie> sipa: I'm syncing the block chain from scratch.
1148 2013-09-13 15:03:16 KiRK-ENT has quit (Client Quit)
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1152 2013-09-13 15:04:41 <kuzetsa> going back to sleep for a few hours... I'll poke around util.cpp later (or won't... I will or won't or might not even remember this github issue until there's a notification about comments)
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1161 2013-09-13 15:08:45 <runeks> darsie: While downloading, the bitcoin client will stop asking for blocks while it processes the ones it has gotten already. At least that's my experience.
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1164 2013-09-13 15:11:41 <jgarzik> runeks, it asks for 500 blocks, processes 500 blocks, asks for 500 blocks, ...
1165 2013-09-13 15:12:01 <jgarzik> unfortunately, sometimes it gets confused and asks two peers for blocks, if a network block arrives in the meantime
1166 2013-09-13 15:12:13 <runeks> darsie: If you're running version 0.7.1 and later, it might be faster to download the bootstrap.dat file via BitTorrent, place that in your bitcoin data directory, and the start bitcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0
1167 2013-09-13 15:12:57 <darsie> runeks: is that safe?
1168 2013-09-13 15:12:59 <runeks> jgarzik: Right. That's what I thought as well. This will make it seem like it's stalled if you just look at the download rate.
1169 2013-09-13 15:13:18 <runeks> darsie: Yes I'd say so. Your client verifies the blocks.
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1172 2013-09-13 15:16:39 <sipa> darsie: yes, it's safe
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1176 2013-09-13 15:17:43 <runeks> darsie: When your client is done verifying those 250,000 blocks, it'll ask the network for other blocks, and if these blocks don't fit the chain you've downloaded via BitTorrent that chain won't be used. It will always select the longest chain.
1177 2013-09-13 15:18:07 <darsie> sipa: Then it wasn't necessary to sign the forum post, right? If the torrent was bad bitcoin would reject it. The only drawback would have been to have downloaded the torrent in vain.
1178 2013-09-13 15:18:23 <sipa> the data taken from bootstrap.dat is processed just as if it was received via the network
1179 2013-09-13 15:18:46 <sipa> darsie: correct
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1182 2013-09-13 15:19:46 <Vinnie_win> Finally got my base encoder working...lol
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1185 2013-09-13 15:21:43 <jgarzik> darsie, correct, it was not really necessary to sign the torrent forum post…   as the post itself notes in the "Why should I trust you?" section.
1186 2013-09-13 15:23:10 * jgarzik recommends reading the forum post, as it answers Frequently Asked Questions...
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1191 2013-09-13 15:28:04 <jgarzik> security news:  you can trojan a computer chip such that the modified circuit appears legit on all wiring layers
1192 2013-09-13 15:28:10 <runeks> Gonna start seeding on that as soon as linearize.py finishes. Seems like a good use of bandwidth.
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1194 2013-09-13 15:28:55 <runeks> jgarzik: Lesson: don't trust hardware RNGs
1195 2013-09-13 15:29:05 <jgarzik> don't trust hardware ;p
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1197 2013-09-13 15:29:26 <runeks> Don't trust *anything*
1198 2013-09-13 15:29:27 <runeks> :)
1199 2013-09-13 15:29:36 dustjn has joined
1200 2013-09-13 15:30:05 <sipa> just assume a universal turning machine
1201 2013-09-13 15:30:15 <jgarzik> Decentralized auction protocol (json-rpc): https://gist.github.com/jgarzik/6546194
1202 2013-09-13 15:30:20 <TD> probably the best way to gain confidence in RDRAND is to constantly stream randomness from it and throw most away
1203 2013-09-13 15:30:21 <runeks> I have a hard time seeing how modifying anything but the RNG would be useful for the NSA.
1204 2013-09-13 15:30:24 <jgarzik> Got the base coding for the HTTP auction server completed last night
1205 2013-09-13 15:30:43 <jgarzik> bitcoin friendly:  auctions are -guaranteed- to only have zero or one successful bidder
1206 2013-09-13 15:30:52 <runeks> jgarzik: Cool!
1207 2013-09-13 15:30:53 <jgarzik> auctioneer can only steal 1 bid
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1209 2013-09-13 15:31:23 <TD> json,sigh :)
1210 2013-09-13 15:31:25 <jgarzik> auction id is generated by hashing the (hash,n) outpoint required for each bid
1211 2013-09-13 15:31:26 <runeks> jgarzik: What about if you have n items to sell?
1212 2013-09-13 15:31:38 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1213 2013-09-13 15:31:41 <jgarzik> runeks, this is purposefully a simple demo example :)
1214 2013-09-13 15:31:53 Mqrius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1215 2013-09-13 15:32:03 <TD> is this for something that bitpay is planning?
1216 2013-09-13 15:32:07 <runeks> jgarzik: But is it possible/supported?
1217 2013-09-13 15:32:08 <jgarzik> runeks, once it is 100% working, can add other auction types and features
1218 2013-09-13 15:32:12 <jgarzik> TD, no, personal project
1219 2013-09-13 15:32:15 <jgarzik> decentralized auctions
1220 2013-09-13 15:32:17 <TD> ok
1221 2013-09-13 15:32:18 <TD> cool
1222 2013-09-13 15:32:34 <runeks> bitcointalk.org auctions are a mess. So this seems useful.
1223 2013-09-13 15:32:51 <jgarzik> each bidder _provably_ submits funds
1224 2013-09-13 15:33:01 <jgarzik> so at least shill bidders must put up cash
1225 2013-09-13 15:33:24 <jgarzik> (though with this first type of auction, sealed bid, shill bidders are less of a problem)
1226 2013-09-13 15:34:05 <jgarzik> TD, thought about protocol buffers… still might do that.
1227 2013-09-13 15:34:16 <jgarzik> TD, json-rpc tends to be more accessible to bitcoin users
1228 2013-09-13 15:34:25 * TD can't be bothered writing any kind of manual marshalling code anymore
1229 2013-09-13 15:34:30 <jgarzik> TD, once payment protocol is widespread, that will change surely
1230 2013-09-13 15:34:39 <jgarzik> hehehe
1231 2013-09-13 15:34:47 <nkuttler> hrm, does bitcoind come with some kind of command shell?
1232 2013-09-13 15:34:48 <TD> jgarzik: are you gonna write a client-side gui app for taking part in the auctions?
1233 2013-09-13 15:34:54 <jgarzik> nkuttler, yes
1234 2013-09-13 15:35:04 <jgarzik> TD, client side command line app ;p
1235 2013-09-13 15:35:16 <TD> making guis is fun, you know. you should try it :)
1236 2013-09-13 15:35:20 <TD> unleash your artistic side ;)
1237 2013-09-13 15:35:32 <jgarzik> TD, been there done that hated it ;p
1238 2013-09-13 15:35:34 <TD> hah
1239 2013-09-13 15:35:35 <nkuttler> jgarzik: ?
1240 2013-09-13 15:35:49 <TD> jim is planning to rebuild multibit on top of javafx. i've put him in touch with a gui/graphics designer type
1241 2013-09-13 15:35:51 <jgarzik> TD, I was an original contributor to glib/gtk/gnome stack
1242 2013-09-13 15:35:53 <TD> i'm hoping the result is going to be good
1243 2013-09-13 15:36:04 <TD> cool
1244 2013-09-13 15:36:08 * TD wrote a bunch of gtk2 apps back in the day
1245 2013-09-13 15:36:10 <jgarzik> wrote lots of UI shite
1246 2013-09-13 15:36:23 <runeks> nkuttler: It has an RPC interface that can be accessed with bitcoind itself. Type "bitcoind help" to see the commands.
1247 2013-09-13 15:36:31 <jgarzik> TD, I do agree 100% that this sort of task wants a GUI
1248 2013-09-13 15:36:42 <nkuttler> runeks: oh sure, that wasn't my question though. i guess it's no then
1249 2013-09-13 15:36:42 <jgarzik> just cannot summon the personal energy to tackle the task
1250 2013-09-13 15:37:16 <jgarzik> TD, in general the bitcoin world needs a useful GUI tool for building unusual transactions, like the one this auction process requires
1251 2013-09-13 15:37:28 <jgarzik> TD, where everyone is required to add the same, unsigned input
1252 2013-09-13 15:37:36 <TD> i think you don't want to have a swiss-army knife gui, but rather, different guis for each specialised task
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1254 2013-09-13 15:37:46 Subo1977_ has joined
1255 2013-09-13 15:37:54 <TD> one of my goals with bitcoinj was to make it so you can bring up a basic GUI wallet app in like 50 lines of code
1256 2013-09-13 15:38:15 <TD> then it becomes quite straightforward to design custom apps that can receive bitcoins like a wallet can, and do whatever is needed under the hood to implement the gui
1257 2013-09-13 15:38:27 <jgarzik> TD, Perhaps…  but common pain points would continue to exist with selecting coins, generating change, and other details one discovers trying to do raw transactions
1258 2013-09-13 15:38:28 <TD> one of the things on my todo list is to release a demo app that does file transfers using the payment channels code
1259 2013-09-13 15:38:32 <TD> to prove how easy it is, to people :)
1260 2013-09-13 15:39:01 <jgarzik> TD, that's what I am trying to do, generalized:  create a working demo for advanced bitcoin technology, because a lot of people simply do not grasp these concepts still
1261 2013-09-13 15:39:04 <TD> well that's why you build a custom app on top of a library that handles all of that. from the users and programmers POV, you just get a wallet object and can send money in and out. once the money is in, it's easy to do contracts
1262 2013-09-13 15:39:07 <TD> yeah
1263 2013-09-13 15:39:11 <TD> that's true, we're still right at the start
1264 2013-09-13 15:39:36 <TD> the micropayments work matt and I did this summer was really useful for improving bitcoinj to make contract apps really easy to build, as it gave us practical experience.
1265 2013-09-13 15:40:02 <TD> like, how do you take a complex multi-step protocol and turn it into real working code? now we know and we cleaned up a lot of sharp edges along the way.
1266 2013-09-13 15:40:02 <TheLordOfTime> is there a changelog of what's changed between 0.8.4 and 0.8.5?  Something other than diffs, I just want the general changes, not the code-level ones.
1267 2013-09-13 15:40:33 rdymac has joined
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1270 2013-09-13 15:41:02 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, it was two changes, both of which the release announcement described
1271 2013-09-13 15:41:18 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, assuming I missed the release announcement, where would I find it?
1272 2013-09-13 15:41:44 <TheLordOfTime> (because i've been so busy poking my head in the Linux kernel i don't bother checking all the announcement lists I'm subscribed to xD)
1273 2013-09-13 15:41:58 Belkaar has joined
1274 2013-09-13 15:42:12 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, where are you poking your head?  :)
1275 2013-09-13 15:42:20 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, https://bitcointalk.org/
1276 2013-09-13 15:42:22 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, the Ubuntu kernel xD
1277 2013-09-13 15:42:32 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, which part?
1278 2013-09-13 15:42:49 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, good question, i'm trying to follow traceback on a compilation segv
1279 2013-09-13 15:42:49 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, I wrote several parts of that kernel ya know ;p
1280 2013-09-13 15:42:50 <TheLordOfTime> but...
1281 2013-09-13 15:42:51 <TheLordOfTime> :/
1282 2013-09-13 15:44:00 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, i don't see a release announcement.  unless it's so well hidden that it's not readily visible
1283 2013-09-13 15:44:35 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, at the top there are two blue diamonds next to the mention
1284 2013-09-13 15:44:39 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1285 2013-09-13 15:44:46 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, ... which don't link to anything
1286 2013-09-13 15:44:53 <TheLordOfTime> those're just text-diamonds
1287 2013-09-13 15:44:58 <Cusipzzz> TheLordOfTime: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293307.0
1288 2013-09-13 15:45:12 <TheLordOfTime> Cusipzzz, thank you
1289 2013-09-13 15:45:14 johnsoft has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1292 2013-09-13 15:45:42 <nkuttler> can somebody send a testnet coin to miYUU6CmrztZxYxJv6akuRXqKz9w224svY ? want to work with bitcoin-python
1293 2013-09-13 15:45:50 johnsoft has joined
1294 2013-09-13 15:45:56 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, oh damn i knew i was forgetting to transfer someting
1295 2013-09-13 15:46:15 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, let me boot up my old system and i'll send all my testnet coin to ya
1296 2013-09-13 15:46:15 <TheLordOfTime> (my old system has the testnet wallet :/_
1297 2013-09-13 15:46:32 btcbtc has joined
1298 2013-09-13 15:46:41 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: :) thanks
1299 2013-09-13 15:48:03 rdymac has joined
1300 2013-09-13 15:48:42 <TheLordOfTime> ... that's assuming i can get it to boot...
1301 2013-09-13 15:48:49 <TheLordOfTime> which is why i replaced it in the first place :/
1302 2013-09-13 15:49:10 <nkuttler> or could i just mine them?
1303 2013-09-13 15:49:24 <nkuttler> don't have any mining equipment though, just a cpu
1304 2013-09-13 15:49:33 <sipa> good enoufg for testnet
1305 2013-09-13 15:49:44 <nkuttler> hm, ok, will look into it
1306 2013-09-13 15:49:48 <TheLordOfTime> aha it booted
1307 2013-09-13 15:49:57 <nkuttler> \o/
1308 2013-09-13 15:50:04 <TheLordOfTime> sipa, at 404 difficulty?
1309 2013-09-13 15:50:09 <TheLordOfTime> that'll be a LOT of CPU mining :/
1310 2013-09-13 15:50:19 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: it resets to 1 every 20 minutes
1311 2013-09-13 15:50:36 <jgarzik> nkuttler, sent
1312 2013-09-13 15:50:44 <TheLordOfTime> sipa, could've fooled me, i had my system CPU mining for three hours and i checked the difficulty, it was ALWAYS 400+
1313 2013-09-13 15:50:46 <nkuttler> jgarzik: awesome, thanks
1314 2013-09-13 15:50:55 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: what miner?
1315 2013-09-13 15:51:00 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1316 2013-09-13 15:51:09 <TheLordOfTime> sipa, CPU + bfgminer
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1318 2013-09-13 15:51:16 <TheLordOfTime> (manually compiled with CPU support)
1319 2013-09-13 15:51:18 <sipa> ok
1320 2013-09-13 15:51:21 <jgarzik> sipa, it doesn't /reset/ IIRC, it permits a diff-1 block to be mined after 20 minutes of no blocks
1321 2013-09-13 15:51:26 <jgarzik> which is a bit different
1322 2013-09-13 15:51:27 <TheLordOfTime> ... bleh
1323 2013-09-13 15:51:31 <sipa> jgarzik: yeah, indeed; that's what i mean
1324 2013-09-13 15:51:37 <sipa> badly formulated :)
1325 2013-09-13 15:51:40 <TheLordOfTime> "Corrupted block database detected."
1326 2013-09-13 15:51:42 <TheLordOfTime> figures.
1327 2013-09-13 15:51:45 <TD> wow
1328 2013-09-13 15:51:54 <TD> i just got served a skippable youtube ad that is ONE HOUR LONG
1329 2013-09-13 15:52:02 <TD> and appeared to be a recording of some german robotics webinar
1330 2013-09-13 15:52:04 <Luke-Jr> lol
1331 2013-09-13 15:52:08 <jgarzik> heh
1332 2013-09-13 15:52:29 <TD> i guess that's a really effective way to get a message out, actually
1333 2013-09-13 15:52:32 <TD> you don't pay if people skip
1334 2013-09-13 15:52:44 <TD> so .... it's like "free spam", i guess, until your ad gets totally shut down for being useless
1335 2013-09-13 15:52:48 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1336 2013-09-13 15:53:21 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1337 2013-09-13 15:53:40 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, what's your testnet address?
1338 2013-09-13 15:53:48 <jgarzik> WTF?  The directory authorities are -hardocded- into Tor clients?  *puke*
1339 2013-09-13 15:53:49 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
1340 2013-09-13 15:53:59 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1341 2013-09-13 15:54:08 <TD> you didn't know that?
1342 2013-09-13 15:54:11 <TD> tor is not entirely decentralised
1343 2013-09-13 15:54:18 <TD> it's the only way they have to avoid sybil attacks
1344 2013-09-13 15:54:31 <TD> the directory authorities are like the DNS seeds for bitcoin. they join a consensus and sign directories
1345 2013-09-13 15:54:35 jeewee has joined
1346 2013-09-13 15:54:42 <jgarzik> nod
1347 2013-09-13 15:54:47 <TD> (well the dns seeds are less important for us)
1348 2013-09-13 15:54:51 <Luke-Jr> ^
1349 2013-09-13 15:54:54 <TD> (the directories are critical for tor)
1350 2013-09-13 15:54:56 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: miYUU6CmrztZxYxJv6akuRXqKz9w224svY
1351 2013-09-13 15:55:09 <c0rw1n> that could use namecoin instead, right?
1352 2013-09-13 15:55:21 <c0rw1n> or in addition
1353 2013-09-13 15:55:58 ThomasV has joined
1354 2013-09-13 15:56:03 rdymac has joined
1355 2013-09-13 15:56:04 <c0rw1n> that's an other way to avoid sybil attacks on DNS, or am i thinking totally wrong
1356 2013-09-13 15:56:50 <TD> the directories are more complicated than you might think
1357 2013-09-13 15:57:21 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, one moment, let my testnet client sync up
1358 2013-09-13 15:57:26 <TheLordOfTime> (i had to reopen the firewall ports)
1359 2013-09-13 15:57:53 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: thanks so much
1360 2013-09-13 15:58:09 <TheLordOfTime> yep.
1361 2013-09-13 15:58:14 <TheLordOfTime> ... why is the client lagging o.O
1362 2013-09-13 15:59:01 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, sent 131.90 testnet coin
1363 2013-09-13 15:59:03 <TheLordOfTime> enjoy.
1364 2013-09-13 15:59:09 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: cheers
1365 2013-09-13 15:59:20 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, i have 100 more if you happen to lose 131.90 xD
1366 2013-09-13 15:59:40 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: heh. i hope not...
1367 2013-09-13 15:59:42 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1368 2013-09-13 15:59:54 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, of course, if you want to send them back to me ever, i can give you my testnet address...
1369 2013-09-13 16:00:00 <TheLordOfTime> since most of those were mined.
1370 2013-09-13 16:00:00 <nkuttler> but then who knows.. never did any btc-related coding. some coins might end up in a black hole..
1371 2013-09-13 16:00:13 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: sure, where should i send them to?
1372 2013-09-13 16:00:53 jgarzik has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1373 2013-09-13 16:01:11 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, n1ogYbCJXRTyvgT7H2aYwbcoLeEx7cKGHJ although i'll probably mine more, i like keeping a testnet supply, but not hoard.  that, and i can use testnet to configure mining on my new computer.
1374 2013-09-13 16:01:48 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: ok. let me know if you need any back, no problem
1375 2013-09-13 16:02:00 <nkuttler> i guess 1 coin would have been enough to do my testing :)
1376 2013-09-13 16:02:01 Liquid__ has joined
1377 2013-09-13 16:02:19 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
1378 2013-09-13 16:02:26 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, with 100 testnet coin still, since i just sent some from my netbook to my main client (50), i should be fine
1379 2013-09-13 16:02:42 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: ok
1380 2013-09-13 16:02:44 jcorgan has joined
1381 2013-09-13 16:03:41 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, but, during your testing, if you want to use your code to send me the testnet coins, i'll be around :)
1382 2013-09-13 16:03:43 * TheLordOfTime lurks
1383 2013-09-13 16:03:58 Liquid3xB has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1384 2013-09-13 16:07:15 lman_ has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
1385 2013-09-13 16:07:28 lman has joined
1386 2013-09-13 16:08:58 <TheLordOfTime> there's a command line option to force rescan, right?
1387 2013-09-13 16:09:08 <TheLordOfTime> say, after i import my wallet backup?
1388 2013-09-13 16:09:53 <Luke-Jr> TheLordOfTime: it should automatically rescan
1389 2013-09-13 16:10:02 <sipa> if you really have to, start with -rescan
1390 2013-09-13 16:10:18 <sipa> but in pretty much every case (especially restoring a backup) it should do that automatically
1391 2013-09-13 16:10:25 <TheLordOfTime> Luke-Jr, sipa, i don't trust it to rescan, so... I'm probably going to do a -rescan anyways.
1392 2013-09-13 16:10:26 <sipa> (and only the missed part)
1393 2013-09-13 16:10:36 <TheLordOfTime> 'course, maybe i should wait for the node to fully sync...
1394 2013-09-13 16:10:50 <sipa> actually, no
1395 2013-09-13 16:10:50 <TheLordOfTime> then upgrade it to 0.8.5
1396 2013-09-13 16:10:56 <sipa> if you need to rescan, do it first
1397 2013-09-13 16:11:20 <sipa> as during sync, it always scans for wallet transactions
1398 2013-09-13 16:11:43 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1399 2013-09-13 16:12:06 <TheLordOfTime> sipa, Luke-Jr, any harm in me stopping the clients, upgrading to 0.8.5, and letting it continue to download blocks?
1400 2013-09-13 16:12:16 <TheLordOfTime> s/and letting/then letting/
1401 2013-09-13 16:12:31 <sipa> no
1402 2013-09-13 16:13:23 chmod755 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1403 2013-09-13 16:13:32 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1404 2013-09-13 16:13:35 MobGod has joined
1405 2013-09-13 16:15:08 lman has quit (Disconnected by services)
1406 2013-09-13 16:15:21 <gmaxwell> 09:09 < TheLordOfTime> Luke-Jr, sipa, i don't trust it to rescan, so... I'm probably going to do a -rescan anyways.
1407 2013-09-13 16:15:24 * gmaxwell votes to remove rescan.
1408 2013-09-13 16:15:40 <Luke-Jr> lol
1409 2013-09-13 16:15:46 lman_ has joined
1410 2013-09-13 16:15:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: can't :<
1411 2013-09-13 16:16:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: thanks to that old bug, I think it might still be needed in rare cases
1412 2013-09-13 16:16:15 <Luke-Jr> (ie, if the auto rescan failed, and then blocks were found that updates the block number..)
1413 2013-09-13 16:16:43 <gmaxwell> If there are issues remaining we must fix them. We will not be able to deploy pruning if people need to run it.
1414 2013-09-13 16:17:10 <gmaxwell> -rescan <ecdsa signature from #bitcoin-dev required>
1415 2013-09-13 16:17:15 <gmaxwell> :P
1416 2013-09-13 16:17:34 <TheLordOfTime> lol
1417 2013-09-13 16:17:43 <sipa> -rescan=blockid,blockid,blockid
1418 2013-09-13 16:17:46 DoctorBTC has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1419 2013-09-13 16:17:57 <gmaxwell> oh, even better, it gives you a per wallet challenge string to get #bitcoin-dev to signmessage :P
1420 2013-09-13 16:18:31 [\\\] has joined
1421 2013-09-13 16:18:32 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I've lost track if that last issue was fixed or not.
1422 2013-09-13 16:18:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: it can't be
1423 2013-09-13 16:19:02 <Vinnie_win> Why does it seem like every base 64 encoded string start  with a "Z" ?
1424 2013-09-13 16:19:38 <sipa> Vinnie_win: only one in 64 should :p
1425 2013-09-13 16:19:54 <Vinnie_win> and yet in the test vectors all the encoded examples start with Z
1426 2013-09-13 16:20:12 <Vinnie_win> or maybe its a coincidence
1427 2013-09-13 16:20:29 lman_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1428 2013-09-13 16:20:29 <sipa> ...
1429 2013-09-13 16:20:43 <sipa> the input strings also start with the same prefix bytes
1430 2013-09-13 16:20:48 <Vinnie_win> yeah I just noticed that
1431 2013-09-13 16:20:50 <Luke-Jr> lol
1432 2013-09-13 16:20:53 <Vinnie_win> doh
1433 2013-09-13 16:21:26 <Vinnie_win> I'm so confused
1434 2013-09-13 16:21:39 <Vinnie_win> The first character output from EncodeBase64 comes from this: strRet += pbase64[enc >> 2];
1435 2013-09-13 16:21:50 <sipa> yes
1436 2013-09-13 16:21:59 <sipa> the high 6 bits of the first input byte
1437 2013-09-13 16:22:00 <Vinnie_win> enc is from the input data. Why is it dividing by four instead of doing a mod 64?
1438 2013-09-13 16:22:15 <sipa> because mod 64 would give the lower 6 bits
1439 2013-09-13 16:22:18 <Vinnie_win> whoa..wha..
1440 2013-09-13 16:22:20 lman has joined
1441 2013-09-13 16:22:44 <pjorrit> haha
1442 2013-09-13 16:23:08 <Vinnie_win> So the input to encoding is a big endian multiprecision integer?
1443 2013-09-13 16:23:21 <sipa> yes, basically
1444 2013-09-13 16:23:31 <Vinnie_win> and I just wasted the last 8 hours perfecting my LITTLE ENDIAN multiprecision integer templte.
1445 2013-09-13 16:23:33 <sipa> it's transforming base-256 bytes to base-64 characters
1446 2013-09-13 16:23:35  has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 251 seconds)
1447 2013-09-13 16:23:46 <Vinnie_win> so most significant bit comes first in the "input stream"
1448 2013-09-13 16:24:15 <TD> http://bitcoinmagazine.com/5474/solving-the-slow-inperson-transaction-problem/ :(
1449 2013-09-13 16:24:19 qbasicer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1450 2013-09-13 16:24:24 <TD> does b.i really fuck up tx broadcast so often this is worth a magazine article?
1451 2013-09-13 16:24:55 <Vinnie_win> sipa: Is it going to turn out to be impossible for me to write a correctly behaving general base encoder?
1452 2013-09-13 16:25:05 <Vinnie_win> I have bignumber code, and its working..
1453 2013-09-13 16:25:19 <Luke-Jr> Vinnie_win: probably performant
1454 2013-09-13 16:25:31 <Vinnie_win> I'm not concerned about the speed...just that it works for all bases.
1455 2013-09-13 16:25:39 <Vinnie_win> and produces conforming output
1456 2013-09-13 16:26:09 <Luke-Jr> Vinnie_win: I've done it before
1457 2013-09-13 16:26:22 <c0rw1n> TD the article says that b.i is better than using real bitcoin wallets because they process transactions instantly, off-chain
1458 2013-09-13 16:26:35 qbasicer has joined
1459 2013-09-13 16:26:55 <TD> i'd say it doesn't say it's "better" per se, but notes that if a centralised wallet  service sucks at broadcasting transactions or imposes a delay, then that biases people towards using that wallet
1460 2013-09-13 16:26:57 fronti has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1461 2013-09-13 16:27:02 <TD> and then comes up with some stupid ideas for the "fix".
1462 2013-09-13 16:27:07 <c0rw1n> that's an other implication
1463 2013-09-13 16:27:19 <c0rw1n> and most their ideas for fixes are between "bad" and "nneds an altcoin"
1464 2013-09-13 16:27:29 <TD> we really, really need network metrics
1465 2013-09-13 16:27:36 <TheLordOfTime> w00t, upgraded AND restored the wallet.  and it did rescan so i didn't have to launch with -rescan
1466 2013-09-13 16:27:37 <TheLordOfTime> :P
1467 2013-09-13 16:27:45 * sipa removes -rescan
1468 2013-09-13 16:27:49 <TD> we really have little idea how fast transactions propagate, so it's difficult to know if there's anything to that article or not
1469 2013-09-13 16:27:53 * Vinnie_win adds it back
1470 2013-09-13 16:28:09 * sipa wonders how Vinnie_win got his ssh key
1471 2013-09-13 16:28:12 <TheLordOfTime> sipa, i assume as the blocks are downloaded/indexed the transactions here that show as "Unconfirmed" when imported from the wallet backup will get confirmations?
1472 2013-09-13 16:28:21 <Vinnie_win> NSA
1473 2013-09-13 16:28:30 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: yes
1474 2013-09-13 16:28:46 <sipa> they simply don't exist yet in the client's world view
1475 2013-09-13 16:29:04 <TheLordOfTime> sipa, it's easy to grab your SSH key... the NSA borrows the TARDIS, goes to your place at night, downloads the data from your computer, then gets back in the TARDIS and shows up later with all your SSH keys from then to the end of time.
1476 2013-09-13 16:29:06 <TheLordOfTime> :/
1477 2013-09-13 16:29:18 <jcorgan> if you were to bcast a TX on only one connection, you could measure when/if the INV shows up on your other connections, right?
1478 2013-09-13 16:29:26 <TheLordOfTime> sipa, awesome, so i just have to wait for 18 more weeks of blocks to be downloaded/indexed :/
1479 2013-09-13 16:30:08 <TD> jcorgan: yes, it's really not hard to write a program that measures propagation delays
1480 2013-09-13 16:30:17 <TD> jcorgan: it's just nobody did it. it's a real weakness. jeff was going to and then for some reason didn't
1481 2013-09-13 16:30:44 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1482 2013-09-13 16:30:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1483 2013-09-13 16:33:30 <jcorgan> you'd have to send valid TXes, though, for propagation, so maybe measuring this could be in a client
1484 2013-09-13 16:33:32 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1485 2013-09-13 16:33:35 <jcorgan> instead of a separate program
1486 2013-09-13 16:33:50 fronti has joined
1487 2013-09-13 16:33:51 <TD> what we want is a program that we can run as a monitoring tool, which exports graphs and things like that
1488 2013-09-13 16:33:57 <TD> so we can see if propagation time somehow goes up
1489 2013-09-13 16:34:27 <jcorgan> TD: would monitoring the difference between arrival of INV on each connection be useful?
1490 2013-09-13 16:34:35 <TD> yes, indeed.
1491 2013-09-13 16:34:36 <jcorgan> without sending one of your own
1492 2013-09-13 16:35:10 <gmaxwell> TD: bc.i does all kinds of goofy things on relay. Including making it nearly impossible to successfully respend a transaction which is stuck due to fees that are too low.
1493 2013-09-13 16:35:11 <TD> it would still be useful to plot that, especially if you can manually tag ip addresses. for instance the article complains about blockchain.info to other wallets. where is the delay? is it b.i being slow to announce, or does it really take a long time? also
1494 2013-09-13 16:35:22 <jcorgan> so this could be a mod of bitcoind, to populate some statistics tables that get exported over rpc
1495 2013-09-13 16:35:23 <TD> recording which transactions are failing to fully propagate and why would be insightful analytics (e.g. too low fees)
1496 2013-09-13 16:35:25 da2ce7 has joined
1497 2013-09-13 16:35:36 <graingert> TheLordOfTime, which article?
1498 2013-09-13 16:35:45 <gmaxwell> TD: also there have been a lot of complaints about "slow broadcast" which are mtgox's fault.
1499 2013-09-13 16:35:48 <TD> yeah or a dedicated app that uses bitcoinj. either works.
1500 2013-09-13 16:35:55 <TheLordOfTime> graingert, hm?
1501 2013-09-13 16:35:57 <TD> mmpgh.
1502 2013-09-13 16:35:57 <gmaxwell> (they've been spending newly generated coins with <100 confirms)
1503 2013-09-13 16:36:00 <TD> right
1504 2013-09-13 16:36:02 gdoteof has joined
1505 2013-09-13 16:36:25 <gmaxwell> I don't know if the mtgox issue is fixed yet, but they've been advised of it.
1506 2013-09-13 16:36:27 <gdoteof> are encrypted wallets forward-compatible through all versions?
1507 2013-09-13 16:37:15 <gdoteof> ie, if i encrypted osmething in .7 does it still decrypt through all the releases since?
1508 2013-09-13 16:38:37 <gmaxwell> Sure.
1509 2013-09-13 16:39:21 <gdoteof> figured.
1510 2013-09-13 16:39:36 TD has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1531 2013-09-13 17:10:43 <nanotube> seeing a bunch of these in my debug.log:
1532 2013-09-13 17:11:02 <nanotube> 2013-09-13 17:08:28 stored orphan tx 7bba85c786707be9811087d5ea9579265ae815eadaa0a7ab8347fbdc9f25976b (mapsz 10001)
1533 2013-09-13 17:11:02 <nanotube> 2013-09-13 17:08:28 mapOrphan overflow, removed 1 tx
1534 2013-09-13 17:11:07 <nanotube> anything to worry about?
1535 2013-09-13 17:11:20 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1536 2013-09-13 17:11:34 owowo has joined
1537 2013-09-13 17:11:46 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
1538 2013-09-13 17:12:06 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: sounds normal?
1539 2013-09-13 17:12:46 <jgarzik> nanotube, all good
1540 2013-09-13 17:13:04 <jgarzik> nanotube, we keep a max of 10k orphans.  most long-running nodes will eventually reach that.
1541 2013-09-13 17:13:52 <jgarzik> One orphan is randomly deleted, to make room for the new one, once 10k is reached.
1542 2013-09-13 17:14:34 <nanotube> ah ok. i figured it was something like that. was just wondering if this was an unusual volume
1543 2013-09-13 17:15:39 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1544 2013-09-13 17:16:23 johnsoft has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1545 2013-09-13 17:16:46 cyphase has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1546 2013-09-13 17:17:02 patcon_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1547 2013-09-13 17:17:11 <jgarzik> nanotube, might be unusual volume nonetheless
1548 2013-09-13 17:17:19 <jgarzik> depends on replacement rate
1549 2013-09-13 17:17:26 patcon has joined
1550 2013-09-13 17:18:00 <nanotube> jgarzik: pretty fast. :P
1551 2013-09-13 17:19:01 elevatioN has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1552 2013-09-13 17:19:12 <nanotube> well, there seems to have been a bunch, but now it stopped.
1553 2013-09-13 17:19:40 <nanotube> woop, now i'm getting flood of them again
1554 2013-09-13 17:19:53 <nanotube> several per second
1555 2013-09-13 17:20:01 <gmaxwell> there seem to be some nodes which super agressively retransmit all transactions they know of... might just be that.
1556 2013-09-13 17:20:09 <gmaxwell> seems like they do it after every block.
1557 2013-09-13 17:20:26 <gmaxwell> I've contemplated figuring out how to hang up on these doofuses.
1558 2013-09-13 17:20:36 <nanotube> mm
1559 2013-09-13 17:20:49 <nanotube> also i seem to be getting these with a certain regularity:
1560 2013-09-13 17:20:51 <nanotube> 2013-09-13 17:19:08 ERROR: Non-canonical signature: R value negative
1561 2013-09-13 17:20:52 <nanotube> 2013-09-13 17:19:08 ERROR: CScriptCheck() : ee1a980d1f7b8f0833636f3b1ad1bacca3835f4edfa1ca532a7b28b31ec83659 VerifySignature failed
1562 2013-09-13 17:20:52 <nanotube> 2013-09-13 17:19:08 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : ConnectInputs failed ee1a980d1f7b8f0833636f3b1ad1bacca3835f4edfa1ca532a7b28b31ec83659
1563 2013-09-13 17:21:03 <nanotube> buggy client?
1564 2013-09-13 17:21:20 <gmaxwell> One thing I do think we should start doing is testing peers that claim to be full nodes that connect to us and banning ones that can't answer random header queries. I expect that would get rid of some of these things, or at least force them to send flags that indicate that they're unusual nodes.
1565 2013-09-13 17:21:22 cyphase has joined
1566 2013-09-13 17:21:51 <gmaxwell> nanotube: yea, if you could identify the source of those that'd be swell. :P
1567 2013-09-13 17:22:24 <nanotube> does debug.log have the source ip?
1568 2013-09-13 17:22:25 <gmaxwell> it's someone who's der serialization is busted. To fix transaction mutability we have to (eventually) forbid the unusual encodings of signatures.
1569 2013-09-13 17:23:09 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, do let me know how your code comes along :)
1570 2013-09-13 17:23:12 <gmaxwell> nanotube: no, in order to prevent your logs from being valuable to capture. .. but they'd likely not be useful, as that peer that give it to you probably wasn't the author.
1571 2013-09-13 17:23:39 <nanotube> they seem to be followed by a 'misbehaving peer' message with an ip.
1572 2013-09-13 17:23:46 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1573 2013-09-13 17:23:46 c0rw1n has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1574 2013-09-13 17:23:56 <nanotube> but it could be unrelated
1575 2013-09-13 17:24:19 c0rw1n has joined
1576 2013-09-13 17:24:22 <gmaxwell> We don't misbehave on non-canonicals, afaik.
1577 2013-09-13 17:27:09 <nanotube> gmaxwell: well grep shows that every single one of those is followed by a 'misbehaving' notice
1578 2013-09-13 17:27:25 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: ah well, until now all i've done is to recompile bitcoin for my workstation :|
1579 2013-09-13 17:27:33 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, heh
1580 2013-09-13 17:28:37 darsie has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
1581 2013-09-13 17:29:14 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1582 2013-09-13 17:30:10 fronti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1583 2013-09-13 17:30:26 <jgarzik> nanotube, I think the misbehaving thing is just a complaint, not something that eventually gets the peer banned
1584 2013-09-13 17:30:54 <Luke-Jr> what's the exact misbehaving line?
1585 2013-09-13 17:30:56 <jgarzik> nanotube, that error should be equivalent to rejecting a non-standard transaction.  however, it does so more verbosely than usual, because the rejection follows a different code path.
1586 2013-09-13 17:31:42 <nanotube> Luke-Jr: the first two lines are always of this form:
1587 2013-09-13 17:31:44 <nanotube> 2013-09-13 17:24:37 ERROR: CScriptCheck() : b5dd545cd6ff2eec1e4d3cbe6130ce6a53a878c0a24d085fd9d98dfdbce0fd53 VerifySignature failed
1588 2013-09-13 17:31:44 <nanotube> 2013-09-13 17:24:37 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : ConnectInputs failed b5dd545cd6ff2eec1e4d3cbe6130ce6a53a878c0a24d085fd9d98dfdbce0fd53
1589 2013-09-13 17:31:51 <nanotube> the following is of two forms, either this:
1590 2013-09-13 17:32:18 <nanotube> 2013-09-13 17:23:08 Misbehaving: <ipaddress>:28956 (0 -> 0)
1591 2013-09-13 17:32:22 <nanotube> or:
1592 2013-09-13 17:32:42 <Luke-Jr> 0->0 means it's not penalising
1593 2013-09-13 17:32:59 <Luke-Jr> (which is good in this case)
1594 2013-09-13 17:33:01 <nanotube> 2013-09-13 17:24:37 Warning: Local node 127.0.0.1:37100 misbehaving (delta: 0)!
1595 2013-09-13 17:33:11 <nanotube> the latter seems to only happen for 'local nodes' which is the tor connections
1596 2013-09-13 17:33:26 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1597 2013-09-13 17:33:32 <nanotube> jgarzik: i see, so it seems.
1598 2013-09-13 17:33:37 <Luke-Jr> that's a bug I think. shouldn't we penalise tor connections?
1599 2013-09-13 17:33:44 <Luke-Jr> (not for this, but other things)
1600 2013-09-13 17:33:59 Gnaf has joined
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1603 2013-09-13 17:34:30 Gnaf has joined
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1605 2013-09-13 17:35:12 <Luke-Jr> either nanotube's bitcoin+tor is setup wrong, or we're disabling anti-DoS for tor connections :x
1606 2013-09-13 17:35:13 Julius129 has joined
1607 2013-09-13 17:36:46 freewil has joined
1608 2013-09-13 17:38:05 <nanotube> followed the tor guide. i'm running it with -tor=bla.
1609 2013-09-13 17:38:29 <nanotube> and yes, probably tor nodes shouldn't be treated as leniently as 'local nodes'
1610 2013-09-13 17:38:40 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, see what I wrote, above
1611 2013-09-13 17:38:46 PrimeStunna has joined
1612 2013-09-13 17:38:49 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, R sig is not penalized
1613 2013-09-13 17:39:27 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, it is a hacky way to fake non-standard transaction rejection
1614 2013-09-13 17:39:35 <jgarzik> well s/fake/achieve/
1615 2013-09-13 17:40:41 xiangfu has quit (Quit: leaving)
1616 2013-09-13 17:43:00 jeewee has joined
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1618 2013-09-13 17:44:35 <nanotube> another thing:
1619 2013-09-13 17:44:37 <nanotube> 2013-09-13 17:42:38 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : inputs already spent
1620 2013-09-13 17:44:37 <nanotube> 2013-09-13 17:42:38 Warning: Local node 127.0.0.1:36883 misbehaving (delta: 0)!
1621 2013-09-13 17:44:58 <nanotube> shouldn't transactions whose inputs are already spent be penalized?
1622 2013-09-13 17:45:41 <nanotube> (and also by the by, i'm getting a /crapton/ of orphan overflows atm.)
1623 2013-09-13 17:46:18 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: yes, I was confirming that
1624 2013-09-13 17:46:36 Namworld has joined
1625 2013-09-13 17:46:43 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: it can't be penalised
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1629 2013-09-13 17:46:58 Anduck has joined
1630 2013-09-13 17:47:06 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: the peer relaying it to you might not have the double spending transaction
1631 2013-09-13 17:48:00 chrisberkhout has quit (Quit: chrisberkhout)
1632 2013-09-13 17:48:38 <nanotube> sure, maybe not a rare occasional one, but if one peer keeps sending you these, maybe it should be?
1633 2013-09-13 17:49:26 <nanotube> iow it should be a small penalty with expires relatively quickly, but it should still be there.
1634 2013-09-13 17:49:47 <nanotube> it appears this one node keeps sending me the already-spent tx.
1635 2013-09-13 17:50:00 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, well, keep me in the loop, i'm curious on your progress :)
1636 2013-09-13 17:50:41 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: it could be exploited by an attacker too easily
1637 2013-09-13 17:51:20 <nanotube> ah i can see that.
1638 2013-09-13 17:52:53 _vfr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1639 2013-09-13 17:55:19 Guest50737 has quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.10)
1640 2013-09-13 17:56:08 <gmaxwell> nanotube: the transaction itself is infinitely penalized ... you ignore it
1641 2013-09-13 17:56:29 gdoteof has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1642 2013-09-13 17:56:32 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: will do. i think i'll write a faucet just to get started
1643 2013-09-13 17:57:12 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, cool.  don't spend all the BTC at once :P
1644 2013-09-13 17:57:20 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: haha, no ;)
1645 2013-09-13 17:57:23 <TheLordOfTime> testnet coin*
1646 2013-09-13 17:58:09 <nanotube> gmaxwell: well sure. i was talking about the node. :)
1647 2013-09-13 17:59:25 rawdr_ has joined
1648 2013-09-13 17:59:54 johnsoft has joined
1649 2013-09-13 18:00:14 rawdr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1650 2013-09-13 18:00:55 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, :)
1651 2013-09-13 18:02:22 <TheLordOfTime> nkuttler, let me know if you'd like me to help test, I'm more than able to do so :)
1652 2013-09-13 18:02:22 <TheLordOfTime> that is, when you get a faucet built and need a tester :P
1653 2013-09-13 18:02:58 <gmaxwell> Oh someone found one of the collision bounties!
1654 2013-09-13 18:03:04 <gmaxwell> (the ABS() one. :P )
1655 2013-09-13 18:03:08 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: definitely :)
1656 2013-09-13 18:03:56 fronti has joined
1657 2013-09-13 18:04:12 <gmaxwell> Does someone have 59ac3eccee265d31bee3264cf77a4e9b7703d6ad0cf97eadcdb4439c22725db2 ?
1658 2013-09-13 18:04:24 <gmaxwell> it stinks that bc.i can't export hex.
1659 2013-09-13 18:05:45 <lianj> i don't have it :(
1660 2013-09-13 18:06:22 pofl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1661 2013-09-13 18:09:16 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1662 2013-09-13 18:09:23 moarrr has quit ()
1663 2013-09-13 18:09:42 agricocb has joined
1664 2013-09-13 18:12:19 <jcorgan> gmaxwell: dude, that was uncalled for :)
1665 2013-09-13 18:12:20  has joined
1666 2013-09-13 18:13:34 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: hm?
1667 2013-09-13 18:13:43 daybyter has joined
1668 2013-09-13 18:15:19 <jcorgan> though you were talking about the recent collision bounty
1669 2013-09-13 18:15:29 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1670 2013-09-13 18:16:49 an3k has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1671 2013-09-13 18:28:07 peetaur has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1672 2013-09-13 18:30:10 peetaur has joined
1673 2013-09-13 18:31:58 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
1674 2013-09-13 18:33:23 ffff_ has joined
1675 2013-09-13 18:34:11 <gmaxwell> I've been seeing a lot of people reporting the time wrong warning. Doublec mentioned it a while back, it seems to me that there is some insane misbehavior on the network, and I'm wondering what the motivation is?
1676 2013-09-13 18:37:12 CheckDavid has joined
1677 2013-09-13 18:37:37 jcorgan has joined
1678 2013-09-13 18:39:23 an3k has joined
1679 2013-09-13 18:39:23 btcbtc has joined
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1682 2013-09-13 18:44:23 ffff_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1683 2013-09-13 18:44:34 <gmaxwell> e.g. one user just gave me a getpeerinfo that has a spread of 1379096587 - 1379079635 = 16952 seconds.
1684 2013-09-13 18:45:39 an3k has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1685 2013-09-13 18:45:41 Julius129 has joined
1686 2013-09-13 18:46:14 <gmaxwell> There are ten peers all with identical starting times, all that claim a starting height of 1. All that claim to be "/Satoshi:0.8.99/"
1687 2013-09-13 18:46:58 ThomasV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1688 2013-09-13 18:47:05 ThomasV_ has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1689 2013-09-13 18:47:31 ThomasV has joined
1690 2013-09-13 18:48:08 <gmaxwell> most of them are on 5.9/16, including 5.9.245.121:21544 which resolves to "pool.50btc.com"
1691 2013-09-13 18:48:15 <gmaxwell> but pool.50btc.com does not resolve to that IP.
1692 2013-09-13 18:50:07 gigantic has joined
1693 2013-09-13 18:50:47 pofl has joined
1694 2013-09-13 18:50:54 <gigantic> Question- i run ubuntu and running bitcoin-qt 0.8.4 from the PPA, is it possible to download the Linux version 0.8.5 (not the ppa) and start bitcoin from it?
1695 2013-09-13 18:51:22 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1696 2013-09-13 18:51:25 <JyZyXEL> wasn't 5.0.0.0/8 the range that hamachi used to use
1697 2013-09-13 18:51:29 <longcat> what da fuck
1698 2013-09-13 18:51:55 <gmaxwell> gigantic: sure, should be fine.
1699 2013-09-13 18:51:56 <longcat> im using 0.8.5-beta...  to get around the constant block chain corruption issue without having to do teh checksomething=2 but im connected to 9 peers and have 0 blocks??
1700 2013-09-13 18:52:52 <gmaxwell> longcat: you're not giving much information here, were you previously running an older version?
1701 2013-09-13 18:53:00 <longcat> i was running 0.8.3
1702 2013-09-13 18:53:15 <longcat> i guess ill nuke * minus wallet.dat and buttcoin.conf and try again
1703 2013-09-13 18:53:56 lordbunson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1704 2013-09-13 18:53:57 <gmaxwell> longcat: hold on. jesus.
1705 2013-09-13 18:54:09 <gmaxwell> you were running 0.8.3 and it was working fine ? or?
1706 2013-09-13 18:54:23 tmsk has joined
1707 2013-09-13 18:54:26 <longcat> it was running fine until recently where every time i started it up, the sanity check made it want to reindex all blocks
1708 2013-09-13 18:54:43 <gmaxwell> if you started a reindex you need to let it finish. If you killed the process while reindexing you should reindex again if its showing no blocks. This will be faster than nuking things.
1709 2013-09-13 18:55:01 lordbunson has joined
1710 2013-09-13 18:58:18 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1711 2013-09-13 18:59:17 <longcat> Volume Shadow Copies and SSDs make me a very happy cat
1712 2013-09-13 18:59:18 skinnkavaj has joined
1713 2013-09-13 19:00:58 <longcat> 128GB SSD...  $150.  $50B ...  $5500USD.  Reindexing block chain: 1 hour.  Restoring * to a previous version at 300MB/s: priceless
1714 2013-09-13 19:01:20 <gigantic> gmaxwell, i am runing now 0.8.5-linux, and it seems ok, but when the the version will be in the PPA?
1715 2013-09-13 19:02:23 Application has joined
1716 2013-09-13 19:03:17 <gigantic> and will i be able to smoothly switch to the PPA version after i runned the linux version?
1717 2013-09-13 19:03:30 <gigantic> that is, without reindexing
1718 2013-09-13 19:03:30 <Luke-Jr> gigantic: should be fine, this is why PPA uses bdb 4.8 still
1719 2013-09-13 19:03:36 <longcat> thank ...  people... 0.8.5 starts up on 0.8.3 data without wanting to reindex my blocks
1720 2013-09-13 19:03:47 <Luke-Jr> longcat: that's the point
1721 2013-09-13 19:03:57 <Cusipzzz> lol
1722 2013-09-13 19:03:57 mrkent has joined
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1724 2013-09-13 19:03:57 mrkent has joined
1725 2013-09-13 19:04:46 <gmaxwell> When Bluematt updates the ppa. Bluematt!
1726 2013-09-13 19:04:46 <gigantic> there is no PPA for the new version from what i read
1727 2013-09-13 19:04:52 <gigantic> oh ok
1728 2013-09-13 19:06:05 <longcat> stupid no ecdsa.h when trying to compile bitcoin-master
1729 2013-09-13 19:06:29 <gmaxwell> longcat: fedora or centos?
1730 2013-09-13 19:06:35 <longcat> centos 6.4
1731 2013-09-13 19:06:45 <gmaxwell> ah, I don't have replacement openssl rpms for centos.
1732 2013-09-13 19:06:46 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
1733 2013-09-13 19:07:13 <longcat> i have my own local build but i havent quite nailed down the dance to get configure to use it properly
1734 2013-09-13 19:07:18 <gigantic> i am getting this in the terminal-
1735 2013-09-13 19:07:19 <gigantic> QString::arg: Argument missing:
1736 2013-09-13 19:07:26 <gigantic> bitcoin-qt is running
1737 2013-09-13 19:07:42 <gigantic> it says 1% out of...
1738 2013-09-13 19:07:43 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1739 2013-09-13 19:07:47 <gigantic> but its some kind of error
1740 2013-09-13 19:07:53 asuk has joined
1741 2013-09-13 19:08:02 awishformore has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1742 2013-09-13 19:08:26 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1743 2013-09-13 19:09:26 <gigantic> it says "QString::arg: Argument missing: " with the amount of % and Time
1744 2013-09-13 19:10:26 <gigantic> any advice?
1745 2013-09-13 19:10:42 Gnaf has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130814063812])
1746 2013-09-13 19:11:25 da2ce7 has joined
1747 2013-09-13 19:11:37 robocoin has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1748 2013-09-13 19:12:03 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1749 2013-09-13 19:12:26 an3k has joined
1750 2013-09-13 19:12:32 CryptoBuck has joined
1751 2013-09-13 19:13:55 <longcat> don't eat yellow snow
1752 2013-09-13 19:14:33 <gmaxwell> gigantic: what language user interface do you use?
1753 2013-09-13 19:14:45 <gigantic> Hebrew
1754 2013-09-13 19:14:50 <gmaxwell> gigantic: it's just that the translations for your language are out of sync with the software.
1755 2013-09-13 19:14:57 <gmaxwell> gigantic: can you open an issue on the bitcoin github?
1756 2013-09-13 19:15:07 <gigantic> yes, give me the link pls
1757 2013-09-13 19:15:10 nethershaw has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1758 2013-09-13 19:15:19 nethershaw has joined
1759 2013-09-13 19:15:25 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/
1760 2013-09-13 19:15:35 <gmaxwell> mention that you're using hebrew, 0.8.5 and the message that you're getting.
1761 2013-09-13 19:15:38 robocoin has joined
1762 2013-09-13 19:18:33 Luke-Jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1763 2013-09-13 19:18:39 asuk has quit ()
1764 2013-09-13 19:19:39 jeewee has joined
1765 2013-09-13 19:20:21 <gigantic> Done
1766 2013-09-13 19:20:23 <gigantic> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2993
1767 2013-09-13 19:21:04 Luke-Jr has joined
1768 2013-09-13 19:21:09 <gigantic> Thanks
1769 2013-09-13 19:21:21 <gigantic> gtg
1770 2013-09-13 19:21:21 <gigantic> bye
1771 2013-09-13 19:24:14 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1772 2013-09-13 19:24:20 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1776 2013-09-13 19:26:24 paraipan has joined
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1778 2013-09-13 19:36:12 <gmaxwell> So. New user failure mode:  They want to send to address 1Apple. They go to the address book and click on 1Carrot and enter in Name: 1Apple. Then they go and send coins on the address book entry..
1779 2013-09-13 19:38:39 cads2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1780 2013-09-13 19:38:39 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
1781 2013-09-13 19:39:24 <Luke-Jr> …………………..
1782 2013-09-13 19:39:27 <Luke-Jr> wtf
1783 2013-09-13 19:41:12 <gmaxwell> confused the hell out of me because the screenshot of their transaction list shows it "To" the 1Apple
1784 2013-09-13 19:41:22 <gmaxwell> since it shows the label instead of the address when there is one.
1785 2013-09-13 19:43:34 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1786 2013-09-13 19:44:05 CryptoBuck has joined
1787 2013-09-13 19:44:08 <longcat> Hmm, I had to bung in a manual -Lpath-to-ssl.a and -lssl to get bitcoind to compile
1788 2013-09-13 19:44:33 <longcat> probably my fault some how but I'm just...  I have no idea...  it's leaking on irc
1789 2013-09-13 19:46:47 <Cusipzzz> gmaxwell: wow, just wow
1790 2013-09-13 19:48:34 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if ($label =~ m/[13]\w/) { return "lolwut, this label looks fishy - did you put the address in the wrong place?"; }
1791 2013-09-13 19:48:59 <Cusipzzz> --^
1792 2013-09-13 19:49:37 MobiusL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1793 2013-09-13 19:50:57 <longcat> how about 1Cat and 1Tac
1794 2013-09-13 19:51:30 MobiusL has joined
1795 2013-09-13 19:51:48 normanrichards has quit ()
1796 2013-09-13 19:53:37 cads2 has joined
1797 2013-09-13 19:55:00 Krellan_ has joined
1798 2013-09-13 19:56:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it can just split the address at the first whitespace, and validate the address perhaps?
1799 2013-09-13 19:57:07 elevatioN has joined
1800 2013-09-13 19:58:32 Application has joined
1801 2013-09-13 19:59:15 <longcat> holy shit...  a 67mb bitcoind binary?
1802 2013-09-13 20:00:35 <longcat> and its not even static, lols.  probably full of debug symbols though
1803 2013-09-13 20:01:33 brocktice has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1804 2013-09-13 20:01:50 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
1805 2013-09-13 20:04:34 pofl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1806 2013-09-13 20:05:19 jcorgan has joined
1807 2013-09-13 20:06:19 <jgarzik> speaking of addresses
1808 2013-09-13 20:06:30 Julius129 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1809 2013-09-13 20:06:44 <jgarzik> I like how people have solved that problem, by using services like (?) http://paybtc.to/$name
1810 2013-09-13 20:06:57 <Luke-Jr> lol
1811 2013-09-13 20:07:19 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1812 2013-09-13 20:07:21 <jgarzik> addresses really are terribly user-unfriendly line noise
1813 2013-09-13 20:07:36 <gmaxwell> paybtc.to  "how come this always returns 11hackedUlolriw9394 ?
1814 2013-09-13 20:07:41 <gmaxwell> "
1815 2013-09-13 20:08:03 <longcat> dont be so pesemmistic
1816 2013-09-13 20:08:14 johnsoft has joined
1817 2013-09-13 20:08:14 testnode9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1818 2013-09-13 20:08:29 <Luke-Jr> did I ever mockup my suggestion for redesigning -Qt?
1819 2013-09-13 20:08:30 <Krellan_> My bitcoind routinely compiles to 55 MB if I don't strip it.  C++ templates explode the code size.
1820 2013-09-13 20:08:51 <gmaxwell> longcat: pesemmistic? huh? pesemmistic would be that it returns a hacked address, installs malware, and broadcasts its logs to both the IRS and russian mafia.
1821 2013-09-13 20:08:51 <Luke-Jr> I know I started to, but I think I mgiht have crashed midway
1822 2013-09-13 20:08:54 <Krellan_> Not really that much of a concern these days, though, if you can store a 10 GB blockchain you should have no problems storing a 55 MB executable.
1823 2013-09-13 20:09:04 <jgarzik> if the data is removed from the executable by stripping… that's not C++ template data.
1824 2013-09-13 20:09:05 <longcat> gmaxwell: :-\
1825 2013-09-13 20:09:11 <jgarzik> It might be C++ template _debug_ data, yes
1826 2013-09-13 20:09:24 <longcat> 44k symbols...
1827 2013-09-13 20:09:27 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1828 2013-09-13 20:09:44 <longcat> don't get me wrong, im not hating, im impressed
1829 2013-09-13 20:10:25 CryptoBuck has joined
1830 2013-09-13 20:10:37 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130830-ReceiveMockup.png
1831 2013-09-13 20:10:49 <Luke-Jr> ^ Email button is nicer than addresses IMO :P
1832 2013-09-13 20:11:35 sacredchao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1833 2013-09-13 20:11:35 sacredch1o has joined
1834 2013-09-13 20:13:50 <longcat> bitcoind: /home/p2pool/local/include/boost/thread/pthread/recursive_mutex.hpp:101: void boost::recursive_mutex::lock(): Assertion `!pthread_mutex_lock(&m)' failed.
1835 2013-09-13 20:14:17 <lianj> win61
1836 2013-09-13 20:14:55 <longcat> is that a windows version or are you specifying which win i have just won?
1837 2013-09-13 20:15:59 <longcat> I dont get it... I'm starting the daemon with LD_LIBRARY_PATH=lib ./bitcoind -conf=bitcoind.conf but I get "Error: [...] configuration file:\n/home/$USERNAME/.bitcoin/bitcoind.conf"
1838 2013-09-13 20:16:08 <longcat> I guess ill try a full path
1839 2013-09-13 20:16:20 <lianj> longcat: just a irssi typing fail
1840 2013-09-13 20:16:26 <longcat> (something I wanted to explicitly avoid)
1841 2013-09-13 20:16:39 <longcat> lianj: 61 windows...  bless your cursed soul
1842 2013-09-13 20:16:43 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
1843 2013-09-13 20:16:45 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1844 2013-09-13 20:16:49 <lianj> ^^
1845 2013-09-13 20:17:42 <longcat> ok it's nice that the bitcoin daemon insists on using ~/.bitcoin instead of the current directory...  to a point i guess
1846 2013-09-13 20:18:05 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1847 2013-09-13 20:19:10 MobGod has joined
1848 2013-09-13 20:19:16 <longcat> i take it all back...  just setting the datadir dies what i want
1849 2013-09-13 20:20:05 eoss has joined
1850 2013-09-13 20:21:18 jonass has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1851 2013-09-13 20:21:48 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: what do you think of the mockup?
1852 2013-09-13 20:23:30 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1853 2013-09-13 20:25:18 <longcat> wtf...  bitcoind asks me if i want to rebuild the block database...  but never waits for an answer
1854 2013-09-13 20:25:38 <longcat> "Do you want to rebuild the block database now" (exit)
1855 2013-09-13 20:26:30 <gmaxwell> longcat: it's picking up message text intended for the GUI, minor cosmetic bug.
1856 2013-09-13 20:26:38 <gmaxwell> longcat: but, sounds like you're not running 0.8.5
1857 2013-09-13 20:27:03 <longcat> im running...  0.8.99...  bitcoin-master from a week or so ago.  running it with -reindex got it going
1858 2013-09-13 20:27:18 <gmaxwell> ...
1859 2013-09-13 20:27:26 <gmaxwell> you're just wasting your time with the reindex.
1860 2013-09-13 20:27:29 <gmaxwell> Good job. :P
1861 2013-09-13 20:27:34 <gmaxwell> you need to pull to current.
1862 2013-09-13 20:27:52 <longcat> its doing it
1863 2013-09-13 20:27:55 <gmaxwell> also, ObStandardWarning, running random versions from git is not super duper advisable.
1864 2013-09-13 20:28:03 <gmaxwell> longcat: yes and it will still be in a screwed up state at the end.
1865 2013-09-13 20:28:04 <longcat> (there was nothing to index: it was a blank/new installation)
1866 2013-09-13 20:28:24 <longcat> ok...  what do i do?
1867 2013-09-13 20:28:26 <gmaxwell> Blank/new? then why are you running code from a week ago?
1868 2013-09-13 20:28:49 <longcat> life...  took me some time to get it to compile
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1874 2013-09-13 20:32:16 <gmaxwell> wtf is with these pfork != NULL asserts on OSX! http://pastebin.chiznillen.net//view.php?id=120
1875 2013-09-13 20:35:24 <longcat> for all its binary size, bitcoind only takes up around 48MB rss (at the moment, at least)
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1877 2013-09-13 20:36:17 <gmaxwell> longcat: its about 300mbytes up and running with a full chain and connections.
1878 2013-09-13 20:36:45 <longcat> something i'd like to find a way to pare down...  even at the expense of...  something
1879 2013-09-13 20:37:15 <longcat> why?  beacuse it's on a vps that's already doing and precisely tuned for other things
1880 2013-09-13 20:37:24 <gmaxwell> if you remove wallet support you can save 50mbytes.
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1883 2013-09-13 20:38:36 <longcat> sorry, but is that a joke?  what would it be used for without wallet support?  I dont think p2pool is smart enough to handle that
1884 2013-09-13 20:38:56 <gmaxwell> longcat: huh? it should work fine w/ p2pool without a wallet
1885 2013-09-13 20:39:08 <gmaxwell> and it's fine to run without a wallet if ... you don't need a wallet.
1886 2013-09-13 20:39:17 <Luke-Jr> longcat: p2pool isn't the only pool software
1887 2013-09-13 20:39:19 <Luke-Jr> and I bet it is
1888 2013-09-13 20:40:01 <longcat> thanks for the tip about wallet support
1889 2013-09-13 20:40:22 <Luke-Jr> longcat: also, a lot of merchants and wallet services run it as a filter
1890 2013-09-13 20:40:31 <gmaxwell> In any case, memory usage improvements are very welcome!
1891 2013-09-13 20:40:41 <gmaxwell> though ones that come at the expense of ??? less so.
1892 2013-09-13 20:40:44 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind can't handle heavy load, so they run their own custom wallet, but use bitcoind to filter out bad stuff
1893 2013-09-13 20:41:23 <gmaxwell> I still keep expecting that someone is going to show up with a boost don't-waste-all-my-memory knob that magically halves the usage... the usage doesn't make a lot of sense from a heap profiler.
1894 2013-09-13 20:41:25 <longcat> I see, Luke-Jr
1895 2013-09-13 20:41:55 <Luke-Jr> lol
1896 2013-09-13 20:42:14 <longcat> seeing as you've profiled it...  how 'hot' is that 300mb?
1897 2013-09-13 20:42:46 <gmaxwell> well the halfish that doesn't even show up in the profiles, who knows.
1898 2013-09-13 20:42:47 <longcat> will it ever get swapped?
1899 2013-09-13 20:42:52 <longcat> i see
1900 2013-09-13 20:43:02 <gmaxwell> a bunch of it is preallocated thread heaps and stacks, I suspect.
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1902 2013-09-13 20:43:54 <Luke-Jr> oh, that's just virtual mem?
1903 2013-09-13 20:44:01 <Luke-Jr> no surprise it's different on Fedora then
1904 2013-09-13 20:44:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: nah, it actually uses some of the preallocated heaps and stacks for tracking, but you're right, it shouldn't RSS more than a few pages of it.
1905 2013-09-13 20:45:26 <longcat> if it can be swapped, i care a lot less
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1908 2013-09-13 20:45:44 <gmaxwell> I don't know of any tools to profile the working set.
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1918 2013-09-13 20:58:52 <nkuttler> hrm, anybody here use python-bitcoin? connection.sendfrom() always send 0.0001, no matter which value i use. ideas?
1919 2013-09-13 21:00:48 <nkuttler> doh.. that's the fee
1920 2013-09-13 21:01:15 <nkuttler> alright.. let's put the code on a live server..
1921 2013-09-13 21:01:50 <Luke-Jr> "and a new exchange is born, after only a day of code and an hour of testing"
1922 2013-09-13 21:01:50 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1923 2013-09-13 21:01:55 <Luke-Jr> (sorry, couldn't resist XD)
1924 2013-09-13 21:02:02 <nkuttler> Luke-Jr: i'm not writing an exchange
1925 2013-09-13 21:02:13 makomk has joined
1926 2013-09-13 21:02:20 <Luke-Jr> nkuttler: maybe, but I bet it's happened that way before XD
1927 2013-09-13 21:02:29 <nkuttler> certainly
1928 2013-09-13 21:02:35 <longcat> luke's mean =(
1929 2013-09-13 21:03:20 <Luke-Jr> pfft, that wasn't so mean :P
1930 2013-09-13 21:03:30 <Cusipzzz> that's one of the nicer things said about him... >.>
1931 2013-09-13 21:03:35 <Luke-Jr> …
1932 2013-09-13 21:04:09 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1933 2013-09-13 21:04:22 <Cusipzzz> i voted for ya :P
1934 2013-09-13 21:04:39 <Luke-Jr> thanks
1935 2013-09-13 21:05:13 <nkuttler> this whole accounts thing doesn't seem to make much sense.. sending from one to another is a transaction to myself?
1936 2013-09-13 21:05:27 elevatioN has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1937 2013-09-13 21:05:43 <Luke-Jr> nkuttler: transfers between accounts are using the "move" RPC, and just do internal bookkeeping
1938 2013-09-13 21:05:49 elevatioN has joined
1939 2013-09-13 21:05:59 <nkuttler> Luke-Jr: ah? why is there a transaction fee then?
1940 2013-09-13 21:05:59 <Luke-Jr> nkuttler: and accounts are a bitcoind thing, while "transaction to myself" is Bitcoin-Qt
1941 2013-09-13 21:06:06 <Luke-Jr> the two, while somewhat compatible, aren't in this sense
1942 2013-09-13 21:06:10 <nkuttler> yeah, should stop using bitcion-qt..
1943 2013-09-13 21:06:12 <Luke-Jr> nkuttler: there isn't, if you use "move"
1944 2013-09-13 21:06:19 <nkuttler> Luke-Jr: i see, thanks!
1945 2013-09-13 21:07:10 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1946 2013-09-13 21:07:59 johnsoft has joined
1947 2013-09-13 21:09:13 HobGoblin has joined
1948 2013-09-13 21:09:22 <zeddan81> Ìû
1949 2013-09-13 21:09:36 HobGoblin is now known as Guest43583
1950 2013-09-13 21:09:56 btcbtc has joined
1951 2013-09-13 21:10:13 makomk_ has joined
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1953 2013-09-13 21:11:23 <zeddan81> Ìû
1954 2013-09-13 21:12:01 <longcat> is that supposed to be english?
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1981 2013-09-13 21:22:34 <c0rw1n> no idea
1982 2013-09-13 21:22:39 <c0rw1n> he's in #bitcoin24 too
1983 2013-09-13 21:22:39 Scrat is now known as uglygirl
1984 2013-09-13 21:22:57 <c0rw1n> and #bitcoin-dev
1985 2013-09-13 21:23:16 chorao2 has joined
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1987 2013-09-13 21:23:51 mps has joined
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1989 2013-09-13 21:24:26 <longcat> hmm...  460MB rss
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2004 2013-09-13 21:48:20 <nkuttler> TheLordOfTime: http://kuttler.eu/bitcoin/faucet/
2005 2013-09-13 21:48:34 <nkuttler> still waiting for the coins to arrive..
2006 2013-09-13 21:49:48 troj has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2007 2013-09-13 21:49:59 <longcat> wat
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2016 2013-09-13 21:59:26 <gmaxwell> something goofy with autotools
2017 2013-09-13 21:59:27 <gmaxwell> ../../src/libbitcoin.a(init.o): In function `StartShutdown()':
2018 2013-09-13 21:59:27 <gmaxwell> /home/gmaxwell/src/bcm/bax/src/init.cpp:92: multiple definition of `StartShutdown()'
2019 2013-09-13 21:59:30 <gmaxwell> test_bitcoin-test_bitcoin.o:test_bitcoin.cpp:(.text+0x37a): first defined here
2020 2013-09-13 22:01:34 Application has joined
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2022 2013-09-13 22:04:54 <warren> Luke-Jr: FYI: Fedora 19 no longer has libudev.h so bfgminer will not build there.
2023 2013-09-13 22:05:15 <Luke-Jr> warren: why?
2024 2013-09-13 22:05:25 <Luke-Jr> it's always been optional for bfgminer
2025 2013-09-13 22:05:36 <Luke-Jr> and why is Fedora removing it?
2026 2013-09-13 22:05:52 <warren> Luke-Jr: deprecated or something
2027 2013-09-13 22:05:56 <Luke-Jr> …
2028 2013-09-13 22:06:02 <warren> Luke-Jr: ./configure fails to complete
2029 2013-09-13 22:06:03 <Luke-Jr> warren: I don't think it is.
2030 2013-09-13 22:06:06 <Luke-Jr> warren: why?
2031 2013-09-13 22:06:08 troj has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2032 2013-09-13 22:06:21 * warren tries it, i saw it at my friend's house yesterday
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2036 2013-09-13 22:09:39 <warren> Luke-Jr: hmm... it isn't failing here like it did there
2037 2013-09-13 22:09:44 <warren> nevermind
2038 2013-09-13 22:09:48 <Luke-Jr> >_<
2039 2013-09-13 22:10:46 <Luke-Jr> warren: libudev.h seems to be in eudev master branch still
2040 2013-09-13 22:10:47 BCBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2041 2013-09-13 22:10:48 <Luke-Jr> just fyi
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2046 2013-09-13 22:13:46 <nkuttler> heh. did one of you use a btc address? the faucet is testnet..
2047 2013-09-13 22:15:38 xnyhps has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2048 2013-09-13 22:15:52 <nkuttler> do all testnet addresses being with m or n?
2049 2013-09-13 22:15:59 <nkuttler> s/being/begin
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2056 2013-09-13 22:29:22 <sipa> nkuttler: yes
2057 2013-09-13 22:29:50 <nkuttler> sipa: thank you
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2087 2013-09-13 23:03:39 <sipa> Luke-Jr, nanotube i asse we're not pubishing dos'ing incoming tor connections
2088 2013-09-13 23:03:58 <sipa> Luke-Jr, nanotube: as those appear to come from localhost
2089 2013-09-13 23:04:09 makomk_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2090 2013-09-13 23:04:27 <Luke-Jr> O.o
2091 2013-09-13 23:05:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr, nanotube: i think the solution is a ip or port-based "whitelist" mode for peers, which aren't subject to banning and whose tx broadcasts are always relayed, and rate-liniting is disabled; by default, i suppose localhost can be whitelist by default, except when tor stuff is enabled
2092 2013-09-13 23:05:44 PrimeStunna has quit (Quit: PrimeStunna)
2093 2013-09-13 23:07:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think we should just support listening on multiple ports. E.g. a port for HS (peers would still connect to 8333, but you'd map it to something else) and a port for trusted local peers.
2094 2013-09-13 23:07:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: ACK
2095 2013-09-13 23:07:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that sounds like a good solution
2096 2013-09-13 23:08:13 <Luke-Jr> bind localhost:8331 for trusted peers? plus localhost:8333 as well if tor isn't enabled
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2099 2013-09-13 23:09:16 <sipa> of course... how do you detect "tor being enabled"
2100 2013-09-13 23:09:21 <gmaxwell> Well I was thinking a port for tor, a port for trusted, a port for public.  How they're bound should be up to you (presumably tor and trusted would be localhost by default)
2101 2013-09-13 23:09:54 <gmaxwell> and we should tell people to setup their HS stuff so  HS:8333 is directed to localhost:8330 or whatever.
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2103 2013-09-13 23:10:06 <sipa> HS?
2104 2013-09-13 23:10:21 <gmaxwell> (the tor config makes this easy: the hidden service port has nothing to do with the localhost port)
2105 2013-09-13 23:10:27 <sipa> ah
2106 2013-09-13 23:10:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: we have an option for tor already
2107 2013-09-13 23:10:38 <gmaxwell> HiddenServicePort 8333 127.0.0.1:8333
2108 2013-09-13 23:10:41 <gmaxwell> ^ becomes HiddenServicePort 8333 127.0.0.1:8333
2109 2013-09-13 23:10:47 <gmaxwell> er HiddenServicePort 8333 127.0.0.1:8330
2110 2013-09-13 23:10:49 <gmaxwell> or whatever.
2111 2013-09-13 23:10:52 <sipa> yes, but -tor unlikely to be used if you want typical tor setup
2112 2013-09-13 23:11:00 <sipa> +you'd use -proxy)
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2115 2013-09-13 23:11:28 <pigeons> run it over a different loopback address in the 127/8 space
2116 2013-09-13 23:11:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: doesn't matter in any case, I'd suggest we treat :8333 as "IPv6/IPv6 public" always.
2117 2013-09-13 23:11:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that breaks compatibility (just saying)
2118 2013-09-13 23:11:57 <gmaxwell> And sometimes you want your "trusted" to be something not localhost, e.g. a far away addnode peer you've firewall permitted.
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2121 2013-09-13 23:12:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: what does?
2122 2013-09-13 23:12:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: distrusting :8333
2123 2013-09-13 23:12:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: addnode peers are already trusted I think
2124 2013-09-13 23:12:34 troj has joined
2125 2013-09-13 23:12:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well I think we should continue to dos excempt for the time being. But I  think thats the only way we trust it.
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2127 2013-09-13 23:13:11 <gmaxwell> I mean by virtue of being "TO" localhost:8333 there is no trust and that should continue
2128 2013-09-13 23:13:29 <gmaxwell> while by virtue of being "TO" localhost:8331 or whatever there should be.
2129 2013-09-13 23:13:29 <Luke-Jr> ?
2130 2013-09-13 23:13:47 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: unlike bitcoin txn TCP sockets have a from and a to. :P
2131 2013-09-13 23:13:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: right now, we trust connections to localhost:8333 if the source is local
2132 2013-09-13 23:14:25 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: right, and for legacy we should continue.  But I'm saying we should trust connections To *:8331 (say) regardless of the source.
2133 2013-09-13 23:15:18 <gmaxwell> And treat *:8330 (say) as HS peers, which is a different handling than *:8333  (e.g. banning is not useful, but we might want to limit total connections or hang up on them or do other stuff)
2134 2013-09-13 23:15:33 <Luke-Jr> oh right
2135 2013-09-13 23:15:37 <Luke-Jr> that part didn't occur to me
2136 2013-09-13 23:15:46 <Luke-Jr> (that we can't ban tor sources)
2137 2013-09-13 23:16:55 <gmaxwell> Maybe we'll add PO(something) extensions to the protocol for anti-dos eventually.
2138 2013-09-13 23:16:58 <gmaxwell> and they'd use that.
2139 2013-09-13 23:17:31 <gmaxwell> But regardless, we can still kick them if they're rude. and if we're multi-protocol we should confine the number of slots they can use.
2140 2013-09-13 23:20:43 <sipa> PO?
2141 2013-09-13 23:20:52 <gmaxwell> Proof Of
2142 2013-09-13 23:20:55 <sipa> ah.
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2144 2013-09-13 23:21:25 <gmaxwell> I already think we should add a GetHeaders puzzle for peers claiming to be full nodes.
2145 2013-09-13 23:21:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: did you see my comment on the headersfirst pull?
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2147 2013-09-13 23:24:49 <gmaxwell> On the pulltester? hm. I think that it should expect us to use the first heard best pow valid block.
2148 2013-09-13 23:25:02 <gmaxwell> And I think you can get that without a horrible hack if you just record when you hear them?
2149 2013-09-13 23:25:39 <sipa> meh, that'd means adding timestamps to block index entries
2150 2013-09-13 23:25:47 <sipa> di you think it is necessary?
2151 2013-09-13 23:26:20 <sipa> in normal circumstances, you still need a strictly better chain to make it reorg
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2153 2013-09-13 23:26:44 <sipa> but during failed reorgs, it's different
2154 2013-09-13 23:28:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: well I do think that in normal reorgs pulltester should be enforcing first-best. In the failed reorg case I don't really care so long as its best.
2155 2013-09-13 23:28:24 <gmaxwell> But I think it might be excessively complicated to only enforce first best in the one case.
2156 2013-09-13 23:29:30 <sipa> it could just be a limit in-memory-only ordered list of recently-accepted blocks
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2158 2013-09-13 23:29:44 <sipa> and use that as tie-breaker
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2161 2013-09-13 23:35:07 <sipa> i should try that
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