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  28 2013-09-14 00:47:04 <nanotube> how frequently does bitcoind try to connect to added nodes?
  29 2013-09-14 00:50:10 <numismatics> so, using 0.8.5, just got "System error: Database corrupted"
  30 2013-09-14 00:50:20 <numismatics> if I restart, same problem
  31 2013-09-14 00:50:24 zeiris has joined
  32 2013-09-14 00:50:37 <numismatics> if I remove checklevel=2 from bitcoin.conf, asks if I want to rebuild database
  33 2013-09-14 00:51:30 <gmaxwell> numismatics: your database is corrupted. has nothing to do with checklevel anything.
  34 2013-09-14 00:51:39 <gmaxwell> numismatics: what OS?
  35 2013-09-14 00:51:40 <numismatics> okie
  36 2013-09-14 00:51:43 <numismatics> osx
  37 2013-09-14 00:51:57 <numismatics> will rebuild
  38 2013-09-14 00:52:06 <gmaxwell> It sounds like we haven't completely eliminated the database corruption on OSX esp with unclean shutoffs.
  39 2013-09-14 00:52:59 <numismatics> it was running when error occurred
  40 2013-09-14 00:53:06 <numismatics> (if that helps)
  41 2013-09-14 00:53:29 fpanda has joined
  42 2013-09-14 00:53:44 <gmaxwell> Any idea what the first error you saw was?
  43 2013-09-14 00:54:19 <warren> gmaxwell: have we tried the leveldb 1.13?
  44 2013-09-14 00:54:42 <gmaxwell> Define tried?
  45 2013-09-14 00:54:58 <gmaxwell> I did some local testing on it.
  46 2013-09-14 00:55:03 zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  47 2013-09-14 00:55:07 <warren> sipa: is the new upstream leveldb backward compatible?  (can 1.12 continue to read/write database touched by 1.13?)
  48 2013-09-14 00:55:30 <gmaxwell> warren: Please stop obessively rushing us into new code. These changes are dangerous and take time and testing.
  49 2013-09-14 00:55:46 t7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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  52 2013-09-14 00:58:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm curious as to your opinion on this approach,  https://people.xiph.org/~greg/extip.patch  the substance is in net.cpp: AdvertizeLocalNode()
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  54 2013-09-14 00:58:31 <numismatics> gmaxwell: it was the database corrupted system error
  55 2013-09-14 00:59:25 <gmaxwell> sipa: basically this has us use P2Pool style announcements: If we have fDiscover and our routable peer is giving us a AddrMe that looks sane, and either we don't have an estimated address, or it appears to not be working, hand their addrme back to them.
  56 2013-09-14 00:59:26 <numismatics> i'd be happy to turn on (more?) verbose logging in the future
  57 2013-09-14 00:59:44 <gmaxwell> numismatics: there is large amounts of logs in debug.log already, but its unlikely to be helpful.
  58 2013-09-14 01:00:01 <warren> gmaxwell: please stop assuming that is my goal
  59 2013-09-14 01:00:06 <warren> gmaxwell: it was merely a question
  60 2013-09-14 01:00:11 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  61 2013-09-14 01:00:21 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm helping to test the new code on guinea pigs elsewhere
  62 2013-09-14 01:00:31 zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  63 2013-09-14 01:00:48 <warren> gmaxwell: I've even found bugs before things were added to bitcoin
  64 2013-09-14 01:00:55 <gmaxwell> warren: For some reason your approach continually strikes me as very high pressure.
  65 2013-09-14 01:01:12 zeiris has joined
  66 2013-09-14 01:01:31 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm sorry if it comes across that way.  I'm trying to avoid problems entering bitcoin.
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  68 2013-09-14 01:02:14 <gmaxwell> warren: part of the problem on this is that we don't appear to have any developers that can reliably reproduce the problems on OSX.
  69 2013-09-14 01:02:25 <gmaxwell> because they may be to some extent hardware specific.
  70 2013-09-14 01:02:40 <gmaxwell> gavin left his system in a restart loop over night with the 0.8.4 code.
  71 2013-09-14 01:02:41 <warren> yeah, our OS X dev has three different OS's and he hasn't been able to reproduce it
  72 2013-09-14 01:03:13 <gmaxwell> The .13 leveldb stuff looked like mayyy be it might help some. Or not.
  73 2013-09-14 01:04:39 <numismatics> gmaxwell: I;m not sure I'd be able to offer help, and my dev skills are definitely limited, but I'd like to volunteer my help
  74 2013-09-14 01:04:48 <gmaxwell> warren: feel free to look at that https://people.xiph.org/~greg/extip.patch too, I wrote in response to you reminders on the extip stuff.
  75 2013-09-14 01:05:04 <gmaxwell> numismatics: well reindex now. The big question is if its reproducable for you.
  76 2013-09-14 01:05:38 <numismatics> reindexing; I'll certainly let you know
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  80 2013-09-14 01:09:08 <warren> gmaxwell: is there a different name for extip?
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  89 2013-09-14 01:18:45 <dizko> gmaxwell: should i shut bitcoin down with a specific signal (other than SIGTERM) to keep it from corrupting?   i just had a brand new wallet get corrupted the first time the daemon was restarted
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  91 2013-09-14 01:23:02 <gavinandresen> dizko: bitcoind stop is the polite way to do a clean shutdown
  92 2013-09-14 01:24:00 <nanotube> generally speaking how likely is db corruption from a sudden halt?
  93 2013-09-14 01:24:30 <gavinandresen> we have no idea; is likely hardware/OS/system dependent
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  95 2013-09-14 01:25:35 <gmaxwell> nanotube: it shouldn't be unless leveldb, the OS, or the hardware is buggy. Except during the initial sync, since we disable the some of the syncing then.
  96 2013-09-14 01:25:51 <gmaxwell> warren: a different name?
  97 2013-09-14 01:26:11 <nanotube> mm
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  99 2013-09-14 01:27:37 <gmaxwell> Anyone seeing this behavior: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293729.0  claims unlocking the wallet onmainnet via the debug console causes instacrash.
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 106 2013-09-14 01:32:41 <dizko> gavinandresen thanks =)
 107 2013-09-14 01:33:17 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I think there is a github issue about that.  I forget the details.
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 111 2013-09-14 01:35:52 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: wait, nope, I was thinking of getblocktemplate/getwork in the debug console crashing QT
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 115 2013-09-14 01:44:35 <warren> sipa: around?  questions about your rebase.
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 140 2013-09-14 02:22:34 rappo is now known as rappo--
 141 2013-09-14 02:23:02 <Diablo-D3> http://ojjs.org/
 142 2013-09-14 02:23:03 <Diablo-D3> wat
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 148 2013-09-14 02:36:15 <mycatisdead> hi
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 150 2013-09-14 02:36:18 <hydromet> hello, is gavinandresen available?
 151 2013-09-14 02:38:43 <gavinandresen> available for what?
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 153 2013-09-14 02:39:28 <hydromet> I wanted to ask you if you've been able to build 0.8.5 on OS X successfully? I tried to do so but ran into a fatal error
 154 2013-09-14 02:39:44 <gavinandresen> hydromet: you're using Qt5 ?
 155 2013-09-14 02:40:17 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 156 2013-09-14 02:40:26 <hydromet> gavinandresen: yes, 5.1.0 to be specific
 157 2013-09-14 02:40:43 <gavinandresen> hydromet: I switched to macports qt4-mac, because I didn't want to figure out how to tell autotools how to use QT5
 158 2013-09-14 02:41:01 <hydromet> and I have previously had no problem compiling master using 5.1.0 (per your help a few weeks ago)
 159 2013-09-14 02:41:51 <hydromet> but I wanted to use the 0.8.5 branch specifically so I checked out 0.8.5 (with your commit of ef14a26) and had problems with that
 160 2013-09-14 02:41:59 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 161 2013-09-14 02:42:05 <hydromet> In file included from src/qt/macdockiconhandler.mm:1:
 162 2013-09-14 02:42:15 <hydromet> src/qt/macdockiconhandler.h:5:10: fatal error: 'QMainWindow' file not found
 163 2013-09-14 02:42:21 <hydromet> #include <QMainWindow>
 164 2013-09-14 02:42:46 <hydromet> gavinandresen: btw, I was also paralleling your suggestions (i.e., using MacPorts etc.)
 165 2013-09-14 02:43:16 <hydromet> how recently did you switch to MacPorts Qt4?
 166 2013-09-14 02:43:18 <mycatisdead> hydromet: i built 0.8.3 successfully on os x 10.8
 167 2013-09-14 02:43:43 <hydromet> mycatisdead: what version of Qt are you using?
 168 2013-09-14 02:43:47 <gavinandresen> Oh, I'm not sure 0.8.5 supports Qt5, I think there was porting work done after the 0.8.2 release.  wumpus would know for sure
 169 2013-09-14 02:44:19 <mycatisdead> hydromet: i have no idea…. maybe tell me how i can find out???
 170 2013-09-14 02:44:31 <mycatisdead> just followed the readme
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 174 2013-09-14 02:45:49 <gavinandresen> the readme uses Qt4.
 175 2013-09-14 02:46:33 <mycatisdead> hydromet: I used home-brew to install everything
 176 2013-09-14 02:46:42 <mycatisdead> except for bitcoin itself
 177 2013-09-14 02:47:32 <Diablo-D3> fuck yeah brew
 178 2013-09-14 02:47:46 <hydromet> gavinandresen: your switch to Qt4 via MacPorts must have been fairly recent because, looking at my note, a few weeks ago here on IRC you had mentioned that you had previously installed Qt from a disk image (.dmg) file
 179 2013-09-14 02:47:49 <hydromet> specifically qt-mac-opensource-5.0.2-clang-offline.dmg
 180 2013-09-14 02:48:21 <hydromet> Diablo-D3: yes yes, I vividly recall your enthusiasm for brew
 181 2013-09-14 02:48:34 <warren> gmaxwell: I might be missing context, what does IsInitialBlockDownload() have to do with the GetMyExternalIP?
 182 2013-09-14 02:48:35 <gavinandresen> hydromet: yes, I switched after the switch to autotools in master last week.  I'll switch back when somebody else takes the time to figure out how to make it work....
 183 2013-09-14 02:48:35 <hydromet> but we're not going to get into a brew v.s. macports discussion again
 184 2013-09-14 02:48:57 <mycatisdead> well for the record then……… brew > macports
 185 2013-09-14 02:49:13 <Diablo-D3> brew > macports
 186 2013-09-14 02:49:28 <mycatisdead> macports is the biggest pile of crap shit ever.
 187 2013-09-14 02:49:34 <gmaxwell> warren: I just moved it.
 188 2013-09-14 02:49:52 <hydromet> gavinandresen: thanks for the update, I will parallel your move back to Qt4 via macports
 189 2013-09-14 02:51:03 <hydromet> gavinandresen: ok to assume 0.8.5 branch compiles and runs ok for you on OS X then (via Qt4)? or do you need someone (like me) to further test?
 190 2013-09-14 02:51:14 <warren> gmaxwell: and not importnat, but AdvertizeLocalNode()?  Advertize isn't in the dictionary.
 191 2013-09-14 02:51:24 <warren> heading to dinner now, bbl
 192 2013-09-14 02:52:37 <gavinandresen> hydromet: no need to test compiling 0.8.5 on OSX, if it didn't compile then I wouldn't be able to create the OSX binaries.
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 194 2013-09-14 02:53:19 <gmaxwell> warren: thats what sipa called it, enGb vs enus.
 195 2013-09-14 02:53:31 <warren> oh
 196 2013-09-14 02:54:12 <gavinandresen> there is lots of advertizing here in australia.
 197 2013-09-14 02:54:50 <warren> ok, I only tried one dictionary, merriam-webster
 198 2013-09-14 02:55:23 <warren> Merriam-Webster is owned by Encyclopedia Britannica apparently.
 199 2013-09-14 02:55:51 <warren> bbl
 200 2013-09-14 02:56:02 <hydromet> gavinandresen: thank you
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 205 2013-09-14 03:00:11 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: did you see https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/6548612 ?  (fee rework)
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 208 2013-09-14 03:06:11 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I implemented the relay policy this morning; it has the side effect of keeping the memory pool size down.  Went from a 25 megabyte memory pool (full of old, low-fee, low-priority transactions) to a 200K memory pool.
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 215 2013-09-14 03:13:57 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: suggests that its too agressive! :)
 216 2013-09-14 03:14:03 <gmaxwell> I will review the gist this evening.
 217 2013-09-14 03:16:06 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: mmm.  Could very well be a bug in my code, or using an exponential (N^2) dropoff might be too aggressive (maybe linear would be better)
 218 2013-09-14 03:16:51 <gavinandresen> In any case, memory pools should be only a little larger than the average block size.
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 233 2013-09-14 03:48:23 <boycey> Hi everyone. Trying to build bitcoind on ubuntu, i get ` make: *** No rule to make target `makefile.unix'.  `
 234 2013-09-14 03:48:31 <boycey> I'm in src/
 235 2013-09-14 03:49:23 <boycey> anyone get this problem before?
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 239 2013-09-14 03:51:26 <boycey> That's using the latest commit 4c5969b367d2b8582abc3b0018e18456a7377497
 240 2013-09-14 03:53:02 <boycey> are the build instructions out of date?
 241 2013-09-14 03:56:20 Neozonz has joined
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 243 2013-09-14 03:58:06 <boycey> please ignore the above
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 250 2013-09-14 04:10:44 <Luke-Jr> boycey: ☺
 251 2013-09-14 04:12:14 <boycey> Luke-Jr: long day :/
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 264 2013-09-14 04:53:59 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: can you point me to anything wrt the view tha the memory pool should only be slightly larger than the blocksize?  My thinking was that it should be some decent multiple, e.g. so if blocks are found quickly you have enough pool to keep filling them up with transactions... and also to prevent people from doublespending you.
 265 2013-09-14 04:54:21 <gmaxwell> If the later isn't a concern, then have we settled that replace-by-fee line of thinking?
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 274 2013-09-14 05:18:31 <gangplank> i have some ideas for projects that involve bitcoin but i have no programming experience, would a language such as python be ideal to learn in order to get started?
 275 2013-09-14 05:18:57 <gangplank> (besides like (html and some css)
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 278 2013-09-14 05:20:55 <weex> gangplank: at the beginning, it's not about ideal...it's just about getting started and if you have questions ask
 279 2013-09-14 05:21:11 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Another point is that miners should add transactions to blocks based on the marginal increase is orphan probability vs. the total fees in the block already, which means an especially high fee tx means you want to add fewer tx's in total to your block.
 280 2013-09-14 05:21:31 <gangplank> ok weex, thanks
 281 2013-09-14 05:21:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Hence don't assume every "good enough" tx will make it into a block every time.
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 284 2013-09-14 05:27:00 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I think that small pools sound odd to me just on the basis of variance. I'd rather not delve into more sophicated economic analysis than needed.
 285 2013-09-14 05:27:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Fair enough
 286 2013-09-14 05:27:53 <gmaxwell> we could actually model the transaction rate (e.g. assume random arrival times) and then model the random block times, and see what the queue emptyness rate is for varrious sizes.
 287 2013-09-14 05:28:13 <gmaxwell> and if that alone says bigger blocks matter, then thats enough.
 288 2013-09-14 05:28:52 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Too bad I didn't study customer queueing theory when I was in Industrial Design at arts school. :P
 289 2013-09-14 05:29:29 <gmaxwell> But yea, I'm also concerned because a lot of people didn't like replace by fee (I'm still juries out on that), and a really small pool is very close to replace by fee, it's replace by fee except sometimes plus some multiplicative DOS attack incentive when things fall out.
 290 2013-09-14 05:29:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: There is an argument that if you keep mempools really small it means you can get away without implementing replacement, but as you say, it means you've actually implemented replacement...
 291 2013-09-14 05:30:06 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well adaptive queue management is all the rage in networking systems these days, when I was at IETF in berlin a couple months back we voted to start a new WG just on that subject.
 292 2013-09-14 05:30:26 <gmaxwell> But the networking AQM stuff isn't normally dealing with networks that have possion process capacity.
 293 2013-09-14 05:30:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ha, yeah, I work with a guy who got his PhD in that subject actually re: networking.
 294 2013-09-14 05:30:35 <gmaxwell> (though some of the AQM research is on wireless networks…)
 295 2013-09-14 05:31:14 <boycey> Has anyone ever tried running bitcoind on AWS ?
 296 2013-09-14 05:31:22 <petertodd> Yeah, wireless is one of the few things with actual poisson capacity, at least if you assume a single channel and treat other people as decreasing your capacity.
 297 2013-09-14 05:31:39 <gmaxwell> so ... I .. think? at least if there is replace by fee then the _only_ arguments to be had about the queue size are the rate of underruns.
 298 2013-09-14 05:31:56 discrete has joined
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 300 2013-09-14 05:32:09 <gmaxwell> because there is no double spend risk increase, and there is no dos attack claim jump on expiration.
 301 2013-09-14 05:32:11 <petertodd> rate of underruns? As is, adapt based on how often the buffer gets emptied completely?
 302 2013-09-14 05:33:05 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well we know that the process is possion. So if you estimate your lambda and tx arrival rate then there is a formal that directly tells you how often you'll be out of transactions to include.
 303 2013-09-14 05:33:36 discrete has quit (Client Quit)
 304 2013-09-14 05:33:55 <gmaxwell> if we model the fees on those I can even tell you how much income you can expect to lose (though since its priority order I'm not sure it'll have an analytic solution)
 305 2013-09-14 05:33:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ah I see. On the other hand, what use is that exactly? At best you'll just want to warn the user that maybe they should make their mempool bigger, but really, we might as well just make it as big as they can contribute and leave it at that provided replacement exists.
 306 2013-09-14 05:34:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Oh, income lost because you didn't have a tx to include?
 307 2013-09-14 05:34:20 awishformore has joined
 308 2013-09-14 05:34:20 <gmaxwell> petertodd: why do we keep assuming the mempool is in memory..
 309 2013-09-14 05:34:33 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea when you would have had tx to include but you didn't.
 310 2013-09-14 05:34:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Indeed! I think a on-disk mempool is a great idea, especially for stuff like nLockTime'd tx's you know about and want to mine later.
 311 2013-09-14 05:35:01 <gmaxwell> because your buffer was to small an the network found a bunch of blocks and now you've got your thumb up your butt waiting for resends.
 312 2013-09-14 05:35:13 discrete has joined
 313 2013-09-14 05:35:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: in any case in the no-replace-by-fee where nodes are working on behave of the users to slay double spends model you really would want users donating lots of diskspace to enable ginormous memory pools.
 314 2013-09-14 05:35:55 <gmaxwell> "uniquify all the spends!"
 315 2013-09-14 05:35:58 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: mmm… miners probably want a multiple-of-the-blocksize mempool.   If you're not mining… smaller is better (except for transactions that involve you).
 316 2013-09-14 05:36:24 <gavinandresen> Simplest to start is probably to aim for a steady-state mempool size that is a smallish multiple of the average blocksize
 317 2013-09-14 05:37:19 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: one complication (? maybe?) is that if you're a relayer with a small mempool you can't accept a later unconfirmed child even one that has gigantic fees, because you've forgot his parents.
 318 2013-09-14 05:37:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I suggested tx grouping ages ago for that.
 319 2013-09-14 05:37:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: It's required for replace-by-fee scorched-earth to work properly too.
 320 2013-09-14 05:37:50 <gavinandresen> right, if we want child-pays-for-parent I think we need a txgroup p2p message
 321 2013-09-14 05:38:47 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Specifically with tx grouping, you make INV's advertise what total delta fee you think your peer could get by requesting the INV. (or delta fee for each tx in the inv group)
 322 2013-09-14 05:38:51 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: instead of a txgroup may be a p2p message that lets the sender tell the reciver what the fees and such for this transaction (and its parents) really look like.
 323 2013-09-14 05:39:08 <gmaxwell> And if they lie to you, you always find out after recieving and fetching the parents from them.. and you ban them.
 324 2013-09-14 05:39:10 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: okey dokey.  That's all child-pays-for-parent design....
 325 2013-09-14 05:39:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: And if peers lie to you about the per-tx delta's, kick them.
 326 2013-09-14 05:39:27 <petertodd> gmaxwell: brain sync...
 327 2013-09-14 05:40:05 <gmaxwell> (large atomic p2p messages are already somewhat problematic in the protocol, a quasi attack surface, so I have an inclination to avoid them)
 328 2013-09-14 05:40:24 <gmaxwell> but untrustworthy fee data where we always discover lies sounds fine to me.
 329 2013-09-14 05:40:33 <petertodd> What's interesting about replace-by-fee scorched earth is it's basically just an add-on to child-pays-for-parent, so any work along those lines can be adapted easily.
 330 2013-09-14 05:42:02 <gavinandresen> replace-by-fee scorched earth will conflict with my next project, which is first-double-spend relaying / alerting
 331 2013-09-14 05:42:27 <petertodd> Depending on how relayng is implemented you've just made replace-by-fee possible.
 332 2013-09-14 05:42:39 <petertodd> For instance P2Pool is useful for it because shares include tx's.
 333 2013-09-14 05:43:13 sserrano44 has joined
 334 2013-09-14 05:43:42 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yea, I wasn't trying to start a debate about replace by fee, though I was pointing out a relaying mempool which is too small starts looking like it. (also would mess up doublespend alerting too)
 335 2013-09-14 05:44:21 <gavinandresen> shouldn't mess up doublespend alerting; if the doublespend attempt is unlikely to get into a block, who cares?
 336 2013-09-14 05:44:36 <gavinandresen> if it is likely to get into a block, it is likely in your mempool
 337 2013-09-14 05:45:25 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: e.g. I make get a low prior transaction, it falls out of nodes mempools.. now I don't get alerts on the high fee doublespend.
 338 2013-09-14 05:45:55 <gavinandresen> "falls out" ?  It'll never make it into the mempools
 339 2013-09-14 05:46:17 owowo has quit (Quit: dead)
 340 2013-09-14 05:46:37 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Hm? It makes it in but at the bottom. Then the attacker makes a number of higher fee txn, and if the size is limited it pushes it out. Or is this design once its in, its immortal?
 341 2013-09-14 05:47:10 <gavinandresen> Right now, once it is in it is immortal until it gets into a block or a conflicting transaction gets into a block.
 342 2013-09-14 05:47:44 <gavinandresen> I haven't designed a limiting criteria (but purging transactions that have been in your mempool for more than N hours, where N is something like 24, is probably the right thing to do)
 343 2013-09-14 05:48:36 <gmaxwell> Okay I go read, I was assuming details which apparently aren't so!
 344 2013-09-14 05:48:58 btcbtc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 345 2013-09-14 05:50:30 <petertodd> You know, what's fun about all this stuff is when the likes of Amir start making full-on Bitcoin nodes with totally different behavior.
 346 2013-09-14 05:51:09 <gmaxwell> s/when //
 347 2013-09-14 05:51:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: hehe
 348 2013-09-14 05:51:31 <petertodd> So bc.i rebroadcasts tx's they hear about I've heard?
 349 2013-09-14 05:52:01 <gmaxwell> petertodd: They rebroadcast really agressively, it's hard to tell if it's all theirs or not.. it may be some genius is pumping all txn into their pushtx interface…
 350 2013-09-14 05:52:21 rappo_ has joined
 351 2013-09-14 05:52:51 <gmaxwell> there are other things which also rebroadcast agressively, but so far I've been able to confirm most of them are only broadcasting their own stuff.
 352 2013-09-14 05:53:06 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 353 2013-09-14 05:53:08 Azelphur has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 354 2013-09-14 05:53:15 <gavinandresen> -blocknotify='say "new block"' with tail -f debug.log is a useful debugging tool… (I'm watching mempool size go up/down)
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 358 2013-09-14 05:54:54 <gmaxwell> tail -f ~/.bitcoin/blocks/blk00080.dat | aplay -
 359 2013-09-14 05:55:01 <gmaxwell> (never sleep through a block again)
 360 2013-09-14 05:55:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Hmm... I *think* you can tell by the "relayed-by-ip" field generally.
 361 2013-09-14 05:55:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: You're just asking me to rick-roll the mainnet-blockchain...
 362 2013-09-14 05:55:46 rappo-- has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 363 2013-09-14 05:56:13 awishformore has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 364 2013-09-14 05:57:05 <gmaxwell> (you too can be like Jodie Foster in contact listening to the strangly structured noise of the blockchain)
 365 2013-09-14 05:57:20 DaQatz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 366 2013-09-14 05:57:22 <gmaxwell> the correct horse spam makes a distinctive sound. :(
 367 2013-09-14 05:57:28 DaQatz has joined
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 369 2013-09-14 05:57:41 <gmaxwell> sounds like a mac truck parked in your bathroom.
 370 2013-09-14 05:57:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Lol!
 371 2013-09-14 05:58:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: In any case, having robust relaying means we should expect all sorts of different implementations and so on in the future, many of them with very different rules.
 372 2013-09-14 06:00:23 <gmaxwell> it would be nice if miners would publish shares .. just with tx hash list, so you can see what people are mining.. don't even need to know the actual txn... but I can't think of why they'd do this. :-/
 373 2013-09-14 06:00:40 <petertodd> Oh, reminds me: you could argue that doing tx-replacement only after a certain amount of time has passed is "safe"
 374 2013-09-14 06:00:42 <gmaxwell> the closest thing I can do now is getblocktemplate against eligius, but his blocks are not very representative.
 375 2013-09-14 06:01:02 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Oh, yeah I was talking to Mike about that a few weeks ago too.
 376 2013-09-14 06:01:30 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yes, I have that view (that replacement after timeout is fine— you just arrange so that you're not expecting double spending protection to last longer than that)
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 379 2013-09-14 06:02:17 <petertodd> gmaxwell: You could do it in conjunction with the nLockTime stuff I proposed - replacement allowed if blockheight - nLockTime > 100 or somesuch.
 380 2013-09-14 06:02:55 <petertodd> What's really funny about that is how people could choose to create tx's that they can replace immediately.
 381 2013-09-14 06:03:03 saivann has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 384 2013-09-14 06:05:24 <gavinandresen> petertodd: what use case for replacement do you care about?  Is it the "I didn't include enough fees first time around"  case ?
 385 2013-09-14 06:07:17 <petertodd> gavinandresen: fixing fees and safer zero-conf are two, it's also useful for some types of coinjoin stuff, and jgarzik found uses for auction things
 386 2013-09-14 06:09:20 <gavinandresen> Are all of those use cases:  Replace transaction with transaction that has superset of old outputs plus extra inputs (and maybe outputs) ?
 387 2013-09-14 06:09:29 <petertodd> No, not even fixing fees.
 388 2013-09-14 06:11:43 <gavinandresen> Hmm.  Well, the use case I'm thinking of is the in-person 0-confirmation semi-trusted payment situation.
 389 2013-09-14 06:12:22 <gavinandresen> I think that is what you mean by safer zero-conf, but I don't see how the possibility of replacement makes that safer.
 390 2013-09-14 06:13:01 <gavinandresen> Notification of double-spend attempts will make that safer….  (merchant can grab you by the collar as you walk out the door because their client squawks at them)
 391 2013-09-14 06:13:55 <petertodd> gavinandresen: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251233.msg2669189#msg2669189
 392 2013-09-14 06:14:08 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Lets you actually do something about the double-spend rather than just fine out.
 393 2013-09-14 06:14:16 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Like for a service selling MP3's
 394 2013-09-14 06:16:39 <gavinandresen> petertodd: I don't follow jdillon's "merchant can spend to fees to spite the person who didn't pay them"
 395 2013-09-14 06:17:28 <gavinandresen> Wait… no, I see, merchant has to thrown in additional BTC to try to get the first txn into a block.
 396 2013-09-14 06:17:41 <gavinandresen> That needs child-pays-for-parent implemented first....
 397 2013-09-14 06:17:42 <petertodd> gavinandresen: With child-pays-for-parent miners have every incentive to mine the original payment to the merchant + the "scorched earth" tx, meaning the fraudster is still out their money.
 398 2013-09-14 06:18:07 CodeName has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 399 2013-09-14 06:18:44 <gavinandresen> The phrase "throwing good money after bad" comes to mind.
 400 2013-09-14 06:19:18 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, there's no reason for miners to include /P2SH/ in the coinbase input anymore is there?
 401 2013-09-14 06:19:23 <gmaxwell> It's an odd idea for sure. It's the sort of thing that economic game theory people must have lurid dreams about.
 402 2013-09-14 06:19:31 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Read it again - the merchant is no worse off than before, but the thief can't profit from their actions, removing the incentive to double-spend.
 403 2013-09-14 06:19:34 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: just nostalgia.
 404 2013-09-14 06:19:48 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Patches welcome.
 405 2013-09-14 06:20:01 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, huh?
 406 2013-09-14 06:20:08 <phantomcircuit> no patches necessary
 407 2013-09-14 06:20:11 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: basically the idea is that "welp, you're gonna rob me. That sucks, but at least I can avoid being tasty^w^wyou actually making any money out of the deal"
 408 2013-09-14 06:20:13 <gavinandresen> petertodd: mmm, I see, merchant forgoes the thief's payment to fees… OK
 409 2013-09-14 06:20:18 <phantomcircuit> pools have to construct the coinbase themselves
 410 2013-09-14 06:20:24 <phantomcircuit> so just.. dont include it
 411 2013-09-14 06:20:40 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea not needed anymore.
 412 2013-09-14 06:21:15 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Yup, just delete that bit in your patch.
 413 2013-09-14 06:21:15 <gavinandresen> Still, requires somebody to implement child-pays-for-parent in a robust, scalable way.
 414 2013-09-14 06:21:59 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Yes, and worse, tx grouping. But that's exactly what I've been working on, although I'm waiting for sipa to finish headers first because it apparently touches much of the same code.
 415 2013-09-14 06:22:09 jgarzik_ has joined
 416 2013-09-14 06:22:35 <gavinandresen> petertodd: okey dokey.  You might want to peek at https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/tree/smartfee for my work in progress
 417 2013-09-14 06:22:50 <wumpus> gavinandresen: yes, 0.8.5 should support Qt5, post-payment-request and post-autotools I haven't tested yet
 418 2013-09-14 06:22:56 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Already did
 419 2013-09-14 06:23:08 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Orthogonal to replace-by-fee anyway.
 420 2013-09-14 06:23:37 <gavinandresen> wumpus: post-payment-request should be no problem, I was developing paymentrequest against Qt5 (and fixing Qt4 when the pull-tester broke)
 421 2013-09-14 06:24:15 <petertodd> Heh, reminds me: I had a nifty idea for a fidelity-bonded balance sheet to make it easy to pay miners to get tx's mined in a way that won't show up on the blockchain.
 422 2013-09-14 06:24:20 <wumpus> gavinandresen: yes now I think about it, I did test that with Qt5, just not post-autotools
 423 2013-09-14 06:25:10 jgarzik has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 424 2013-09-14 06:25:15 <petertodd> Basically, just keep loose accounts by consensus, and let people accumulate debt up until the value of the fidelity bond, wiping out the debt with an actual lump-sum payment to a miner. For tiny stuff like fee's rough consensus is fine, and it can be balance-based.
 425 2013-09-14 06:27:01 <petertodd> Main usecase: for the payment protocol to avoid the need for a second child-pays-for-parent tx and yet more fees due to blockchain bloat.
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 428 2013-09-14 06:35:30 btcbtc has joined
 429 2013-09-14 06:35:53 Tabaza has joined
 430 2013-09-14 06:35:56 <Tabaza> Hi
 431 2013-09-14 06:36:43 <Tabaza> searching google for days, i couldnt find any tutorial showing how to install bitcoind, how to use it, and how to access it as APIs/RPC methods.
 432 2013-09-14 06:36:53 <Tabaza> i am wondering, why.
 433 2013-09-14 06:39:00 Zoop_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 441 2013-09-14 06:48:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I hear a lot of address re-use.
 442 2013-09-14 06:51:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Also, it'd be interesting to use vanity gen to make your addresses souund more like pink noise, rather than white.
 443 2013-09-14 06:58:45 <phantomcircuit> is there a reason CTxOut::nValue is signed?
 444 2013-09-14 06:58:56 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Yes, Satoshi is a human.
 445 2013-09-14 06:59:10 <phantomcircuit> let me try again
 446 2013-09-14 06:59:15 <phantomcircuit> is there a reason it's still signed
 447 2013-09-14 06:59:33 <phantomcircuit> no value less than 0 is valid
 448 2013-09-14 06:59:43 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: We're also humans. More seriously, I can't think of a reason why it couldn't be made unsigned.
 449 2013-09-14 06:59:48 <phantomcircuit> so is there anything assigning negative values to it on purpose?
 450 2013-09-14 07:01:05 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: The first tx where that happened was uninitialized memory in Amir's library.
 451 2013-09-14 07:01:17 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, different value
 452 2013-09-14 07:01:30 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: ?
 453 2013-09-14 07:01:34 <phantomcircuit> that was CTx::nVersion
 454 2013-09-14 07:01:53 <petertodd> lol, no, nValue *is* set to -1 in some cases, just not on the blockchain
 455 2013-09-14 07:02:12 <petertodd> an invalid CTxOut is one with nValue = -1 for instance, and that's used in the code
 456 2013-09-14 07:02:27 <phantomcircuit> ok
 457 2013-09-14 07:02:33 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, that's a useful answer :)
 458 2013-09-14 07:03:13 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: tips welcome :P
 459 2013-09-14 07:03:46 * phantomcircuit pats himself down looking for a tip
 460 2013-09-14 07:03:51 <phantomcircuit> sorry not today buddy
 461 2013-09-14 07:04:03 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I take scamcoins and testnet!
 462 2013-09-14 07:04:16 <phantomcircuit> heh
 463 2013-09-14 07:06:05 <petertodd> http://i.imgur.com/4qqgoPD.jpg <- most pathetic attempt at faking a miner ever
 464 2013-09-14 07:06:19 <petertodd> (labcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263445.msg3148724#msg3148724)
 465 2013-09-14 07:06:41 <gmaxwell> wtf... that much be a very low power miner!
 466 2013-09-14 07:07:07 <petertodd> Or maybe it's the tesla model with wireless power?
 467 2013-09-14 07:07:19 Tabaza has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 468 2013-09-14 07:07:56 <gmaxwell> integrated peltier power, they strap it to avlon chips and dip the rig in ln2 and the movement of heat powers them.
 469 2013-09-14 07:08:29 <gmaxwell> it's times like this when a man says, "where is this asset trading and how can I short it?"
 470 2013-09-14 07:09:51 <petertodd> I have a hard time understanding why someone would go to the trouble of making a fake board, and then not bother to put reasonable looking fake traces on too.
 471 2013-09-14 07:10:14 <gmaxwell> because they didn't figure out how to switch to the metal layers in their cad tool?
 472 2013-09-14 07:10:16 ForceMajeure_ has joined
 473 2013-09-14 07:10:34 <gmaxwell> they got scammed when they hired someone on taskrabbit but couldn't tell?
 474 2013-09-14 07:10:39 <petertodd> But they did! There are some traces there, but only enough to make it look truely implausible.
 475 2013-09-14 07:11:13 <phantomcircuit> it's prettier that way
 476 2013-09-14 07:11:17 <gmaxwell> it would kinda be fun to do tech consulting for one of these scams and embed things like "this is a scam" in hex in the silk screening.
 477 2013-09-14 07:11:28 <phantomcircuit> obviously they're hoping to only attract the dumber people so they wont get sued
 478 2013-09-14 07:11:54 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Problem is some people are only incredibly stupid in specific areas.
 479 2013-09-14 07:11:54 <gmaxwell> it's like the nigerian things, the best theory now is that they are so obvious as a prescreening method and it increases their profitability.
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 493 2013-09-14 07:36:25 <gmaxwell> there totally is an option market on that thing.
 494 2013-09-14 07:36:34 <gmaxwell> https://btct.co/security/LABCOIN click options.
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 496 2013-09-14 07:38:31 <petertodd> I think the options are in the wrong direction though, if I understand them correctly
 497 2013-09-14 07:38:57 <gmaxwell> yes seems like it
 498 2013-09-14 07:39:07 <gmaxwell> so TheSeven is involved in this thing?
 499 2013-09-14 07:39:42 <petertodd> who's TheSven?
 500 2013-09-14 07:40:53 <wizkid057> petertodd: *TheSeven?
 501 2013-09-14 07:41:10 <petertodd> wizkid057: yeah
 502 2013-09-14 07:41:11 justusranvier has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 503 2013-09-14 07:41:13 <wizkid057> oh, duh
 504 2013-09-14 07:41:17 <wizkid057> :)
 505 2013-09-14 07:41:21 Guest___ has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
 506 2013-09-14 07:41:33 <wizkid057> petertodd: dev of MPBM miner, some FPGA stuff, other random projects
 507 2013-09-14 07:41:57 <petertodd> ah
 508 2013-09-14 07:42:15 Coincide_ has joined
 509 2013-09-14 07:42:25 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: 4015  0.00005460 paying transactions? :-/
 510 2013-09-14 07:42:40 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: sounds about right
 511 2013-09-14 07:42:47 <wizkid057> like i said, full of spam
 512 2013-09-14 07:42:57 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ?
 513 2013-09-14 07:43:20 <wizkid057> petertodd: http://vpn.wizkid057.com/nas/garbage.txt
 514 2013-09-14 07:43:24 <sipa> warren: afaik all leveldb releases ever are backward compatible
 515 2013-09-14 07:43:35 <sipa> warren: the file formats did not change
 516 2013-09-14 07:43:54 <warren> sipa: thank you
 517 2013-09-14 07:43:58 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: so probaby you should put in some rule where all txn that do not transact at least 0.0001 BTC (sum of inputs) is non-standard.
 518 2013-09-14 07:44:20 <petertodd> wizkid057: Oh, what are you writing?
 519 2013-09-14 07:44:21 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: the code for that is trivial but I dunno how much eligius has changed the code around IsStandard.
 520 2013-09-14 07:44:30 <warren> sipa: did your rebase of bitcoin + secp256k1 have any bug fixes or only changes for autotools?
 521 2013-09-14 07:44:31 justusranvier has joined
 522 2013-09-14 07:44:46 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
 523 2013-09-14 07:44:51 <gmaxwell> petertodd: this is eligius operation issues, it's mining no txn now because its gbt is returning nothing but 0.00005460 paying txn
 524 2013-09-14 07:44:51 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: got a one-liner for that?  Not sure I trust myself modding the pool bitcoind at 4AM
 525 2013-09-14 07:45:15 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: does luke's code even call IsStandard at all anymore?
 526 2013-09-14 07:45:22 <wizkid057> good question
 527 2013-09-14 07:45:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ahh
 528 2013-09-14 07:45:41 BTCOxygen has joined
 529 2013-09-14 07:46:28 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: it would but we have acceptnonstandard passed
 530 2013-09-14 07:46:38 <wizkid057> or whatever that arg is
 531 2013-09-14 07:47:32 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: luke's spam filtering stuff is in  CTxMemPool::accept it looks like
 532 2013-09-14 07:48:27 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: if this compiles it's probably correct: http://0bin.net/paste/eXqzOfgQGwnaZAgB#wCUYHfsaSUIdQR1MCMSORhSkgTEig02Q0WWhPc25TJs=
 533 2013-09-14 07:48:40 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
 534 2013-09-14 07:48:42 <gmaxwell> or well, put the same loop where it needs to be.
 535 2013-09-14 07:49:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Make it set "reason = "too small"" or something to be safe.
 536 2013-09-14 07:52:22 <gmaxwell> laughed out loud at this one: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263445.msg3148812#msg3148812
 537 2013-09-14 07:52:39 <wizkid057> i changed 10000 to another arbitrary value, just in case the spammer is waiting to try again
 538 2013-09-14 07:53:38 poggy has joined
 539 2013-09-14 07:55:05 <gmaxwell> GetRand(5000)+6000; :P
 540 2013-09-14 07:55:21 <wizkid057> lol
 541 2013-09-14 07:55:32 <wizkid057> main.cpp: In member function âbool CTxMemPool::accept(CValidationState&, const CTransaction&, bool, bool, bool*)â:
 542 2013-09-14 07:55:32 <wizkid057> main.cpp:679:24: error: âconst class CTxInâ has no member named ânValueâ
 543 2013-09-14 07:55:40 <wizkid057> :(
 544 2013-09-14 07:55:52 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, wat
 545 2013-09-14 07:55:57 <phantomcircuit> how did you even do that
 546 2013-09-14 07:55:59 <phantomcircuit> lol
 547 2013-09-14 07:56:21 <wizkid057> i dunno, its 4AM. I cant even write a perl hello world at 4AM
 548 2013-09-14 07:56:36 <sipa> CTxIn indeed has no nValue...
 549 2013-09-14 07:57:04 <phantomcircuit> wizkid057, you're missing a .prevout.
 550 2013-09-14 07:57:27 <sipa> warren: which rebase? the latest i did last night was just autotools integration
 551 2013-09-14 07:57:41 <sipa> warren: before that i included bip32 tweaking
 552 2013-09-14 07:58:00 <sipa> oh, and i switched back to subtree-based include of libsecp256k1
 553 2013-09-14 07:58:08 <warren> ah
 554 2013-09-14 07:58:26 <gmaxwell> sorry, late here too. indeed, you need the value of the inputs. duh.
 555 2013-09-14 07:58:47 <warren> sipa: I just want to be sure the secp256k1 we are testing in Litecoin OMG is as close as possible to what you want in bitcoin-future.
 556 2013-09-14 07:59:17 <gmaxwell> (and the inputs aren't resolved in isstandard.)
 557 2013-09-14 07:59:23 <warren> sipa: we're still using secp256k1 and the glue bits from 2 months ago
 558 2013-09-14 07:59:41 <sipa> shouldn't be any practical difference
 559 2013-09-14 07:59:55 <sipa> i nade no changes to libsecp256k1 itself
 560 2013-09-14 08:00:02 <petertodd> wizkid057: why is eligius even accepting no-fee/low-priority tx's anyway?
 561 2013-09-14 08:00:14 <sipa> and here it's just keeping up with bitcoind dev
 562 2013-09-14 08:00:23 rlifchitz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 563 2013-09-14 08:00:31 <wizkid057> petertodd: they're filtered by the pool software, usually... but, looks like we need filtering in bitcoind instead
 564 2013-09-14 08:00:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: i thought about the reorg stuff, and making the rule oldest-notinvalid-mostwork hash chain sounds easy, but it will still differ from the current behaviour
 565 2013-09-14 08:01:02 <petertodd> wizkid057: Oh! So because bitcoind accepts them, that means there are no valid tx's for the pool software...
 566 2013-09-14 08:01:10 <wizkid057> petertodd: exactly
 567 2013-09-14 08:01:23 <warren> sipa: BIP32 tweaking was secp256k1 related?
 568 2013-09-14 08:01:37 <petertodd> wizkid057: I'll be honest, filtering them again sounds crazy to me. :P
 569 2013-09-14 08:01:50 <sipa> warren: bip32 tweaking is implemented via openssl in git master bitcoin
 570 2013-09-14 08:02:10 <wizkid057> petertodd: filtering 0 fee minimum value spam txns? :-\
 571 2013-09-14 08:02:10 <sipa> warren: recent rebase of secp256k1 branch switched that too to libsecp256k1
 572 2013-09-14 08:02:28 <petertodd> wizkid057: Yeah, but do all the filtering in bitcoind is my point.
 573 2013-09-14 08:03:00 <wizkid057> theres some in bitcoind, just not enough it seems
 574 2013-09-14 08:03:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: as tje current behaviour is something like "invalid blocks cause no reorg at all", which is very hard to maintain
 575 2013-09-14 08:03:36 <sipa> it requires state to be about about the reason for a reorg, and backtracking
 576 2013-09-14 08:03:37 <warren> sipa: ok, so our 0.8 would be lacking that part, I'll rebase backwards, then figure out what build tweaks need rebase for autotools.  you doing any changes to the configure script?  We have some.
 577 2013-09-14 08:03:57 <sipa> nope, no changes being made
 578 2013-09-14 08:04:05 <sipa> feel free to submit patches
 579 2013-09-14 08:04:19 <sipa> but the gitognore and gitian stuff would be nice to have rebased
 580 2013-09-14 08:04:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm. So what is the case that is different? if we didn't reorg wouldn't we be on the oldest longest? I guess an out of order block?
 581 2013-09-14 08:05:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: you'd still be on the oldER, but not necessarily the oldEST
 582 2013-09-14 08:06:05 <warren> sipa: ok, I'm kind of waiting for autotools to settle down though
 583 2013-09-14 08:06:06 <sipa> in case of a pathological 3-way branch fork, all competig with eachother
 584 2013-09-14 08:06:09 <warren> why is -O2 not in yet?
 585 2013-09-14 08:06:30 <gmaxwell> No pull request.
 586 2013-09-14 08:06:57 <warren> eh??
 587 2013-09-14 08:06:57 <gmaxwell> cfields failed to make one, so I put up one to his spec, and then everyone brought out the paint and I slipped and fell.
 588 2013-09-14 08:07:16 <gmaxwell> (on the paint!)
 589 2013-09-14 08:07:24 <warren> ...
 590 2013-09-14 08:07:45 _ingsoc has joined
 591 2013-09-14 08:08:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: though i'm trying to come up with an example now...
 592 2013-09-14 08:10:16 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm
 593 2013-09-14 08:11:16 <sipa> i'll just implement it and see whether pulltester likes it
 594 2013-09-14 08:11:32 <gmaxwell> I was pretty confident before and that was without beer. Also, it makes for a clear rule. E.g. "earliest" becomes well defined.
 595 2013-09-14 08:12:28 <sipa> yes, i like it
 596 2013-09-14 08:12:49 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, now you're really confident
 597 2013-09-14 08:13:13 rlifchitz has joined
 598 2013-09-14 08:13:15 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well I did get wizkid working after the brownpaper bag moment there. :P
 599 2013-09-14 08:13:58 <sipa> btw, regarding that forward-declare/dependency fix pullreq
 600 2013-09-14 08:14:04 <petertodd> (not that by "brownpaper bag moment" gmaxwell is referring to his drinking problem)
 601 2013-09-14 08:14:23 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: thanks :)
 602 2013-09-14 08:14:25 <sipa> how do people feel about dropping indirectly-satisfied includes?
 603 2013-09-14 08:14:38 <wizkid057> i'm going to have to come up with some better spam filters
 604 2013-09-14 08:15:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: there are whole schools of debate on that one. ... does dropping them speed up the compile?
 605 2013-09-14 08:17:56 <sipa> nah
 606 2013-09-14 08:18:21 <sipa> all headers have the #ifdef HEADER_FILE_NAME_H guard anyway
 607 2013-09-14 08:18:28 <gmaxwell> (the debates mostly only make sense in really big projects)
 608 2013-09-14 08:18:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: still reads them in, but yea I wasn't expecting...
 609 2013-09-14 08:18:44 <sipa> so it's not processed twice within the same compilation unit
 610 2013-09-14 08:19:08 <sipa> i haven't actually timed, but it would certainly surprise me
 611 2013-09-14 08:19:30 <gmaxwell> our project is small. I wouldn't be surprised on something big.
 612 2013-09-14 08:20:29 <phantomcircuit> sipa, fixing the headers stuff could result in a massive compile time improvement
 613 2013-09-14 08:20:41 <phantomcircuit> and hopefully could improve incremental builds :/
 614 2013-09-14 08:20:56 <phantomcircuit> change one line in main.h and everything rebuilds
 615 2013-09-14 08:21:10 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i'm absolute for *fixing* headers
 616 2013-09-14 08:21:19 <gmaxwell> yea, thats unrelated though.
 617 2013-09-14 08:21:31 <phantomcircuit> oh i see
 618 2013-09-14 08:21:35 <sipa> the question is, if file A uses stuff from header B and header C
 619 2013-09-14 08:21:43 <sipa> but header B already includes header C
 620 2013-09-14 08:21:47 <phantomcircuit> yeah satisfying dependencies caused by indirect inclusion is ugly stuff
 621 2013-09-14 08:21:51 <sipa> does A need to include C explicitly
 622 2013-09-14 08:21:54 <sipa> and i say yes
 623 2013-09-14 08:22:00 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ACK
 624 2013-09-14 08:22:06 <sipa> but it's hard to know you're doing that consistency
 625 2013-09-14 08:22:07 <warren> sipa: 1) in all cases gmp is better than openssl for secp256k1?  2) I'm hardcoding gmp in the win32 crosscompile, and given configure can't detect which features work, I don't know the ideal other parameters to put into config.mk
 626 2013-09-14 08:22:11 <phantomcircuit> wait this isn't github
 627 2013-09-14 08:22:13 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i agree
 628 2013-09-14 08:22:23 <gmaxwell> IIRC thats google's policy for C++ code.
 629 2013-09-14 08:22:28 <sipa> gmaxwell: correct
 630 2013-09-14 08:22:39 <phantomcircuit> it's also just common sense
 631 2013-09-14 08:23:04 <sipa> warren: if better is defined as faster, yes, afaict
 632 2013-09-14 08:23:06 <phantomcircuit> i know i've removed apparently unnecessary includes before and broke everything
 633 2013-09-14 08:23:34 <sipa> warren: hardcoding stuff in bitcoin's context is fine imho
 634 2013-09-14 08:23:39 <sipa> at least for gitian
 635 2013-09-14 08:23:42 tmsk has joined
 636 2013-09-14 08:23:54 <warren> sipa: do you happen to know which config.mk parameters I should hardcode for win32 secp256k1 config.mk for max performance?
 637 2013-09-14 08:24:02 <warren> sipa: ahhhh
 638 2013-09-14 08:24:08 <phantomcircuit> http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stratum-mining#example
 639 2013-09-14 08:24:11 <warren> sipa: hardcode for all builds for consistency you mean
 640 2013-09-14 08:24:16 <phantomcircuit> is that showing the block version as bigendian o.o
 641 2013-09-14 08:24:30 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, does stratum encode the block version big endian?
 642 2013-09-14 08:24:41 <warren> sipa: by that logic though, shouldn't even regular bitcoin (non-gitian builds) be hard-coded the same way?
 643 2013-09-14 08:25:47 <sipa> warren: -DUSE_FIELD_GMP -DUSE_NUM_GMP -lgmp
 644 2013-09-14 08:26:03 <sipa> there's no asm version to use on 32-bit anyway
 645 2013-09-14 08:26:10 Coincide_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 646 2013-09-14 08:26:10 <sipa> so all the other stuff is irrelevant
 647 2013-09-14 08:26:14 <warren> ok
 648 2013-09-14 08:27:11 <warren> sipa: we almost have runtime detection of CPUID into a global integer for init.cpp, if you want to use that for anything in the future.
 649 2013-09-14 08:27:42 <warren> apparently we can't assume all 32bit builds have SSE2 =(
 650 2013-09-14 08:27:50 <warren> err, 32bit users have 32bit
 651 2013-09-14 08:27:53 <warren> err ...
 652 2013-09-14 08:27:58 <warren> I shoudl probably sleep.
 653 2013-09-14 08:28:07 <gmaxwell> Yes, lots of 32 bit systems do not have SSE / SSE2.
 654 2013-09-14 08:28:13 <sipa> libsecp256k1 currently does not have any way to compile in multiple variants of the code
 655 2013-09-14 08:28:24 <sipa> i'd need to reorganize the source a bit for that
 656 2013-09-14 08:29:01 <warren> maybe it isn't worth the effort in the long-term
 657 2013-09-14 08:29:15 <sipa> right now, it certainly isn't
 658 2013-09-14 08:29:23 <warren> just let 32bit users use 32bit builds that are slow but simple, and make win64 and mac64 builds in the future.
 659 2013-09-14 08:29:40 <sipa> wowow that's something different entirely
 660 2013-09-14 08:29:45 <sipa> you need two binaries for that
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 662 2013-09-14 08:29:51 <warren> that's fine
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 666 2013-09-14 08:30:01 <warren> we're finding 32bit is wayyy slower than 64bit in other parts
 667 2013-09-14 08:30:07 <sipa> yeah sure, but that has nothing to do with runtime cpuid feature detection
 668 2013-09-14 08:30:16 <phantomcircuit> sipa, optionally there's also various hacks to do dynamic cpu feature detection
 669 2013-09-14 08:30:19 <warren> it does when we have a SSE2 optimized part
 670 2013-09-14 08:30:39 <sipa> warren: yes absolutely, but the 32/64 thing is entirely unrelated
 671 2013-09-14 08:30:45 <warren> phantomcircuit: which we can't use until gitian has gcc-4.8, if you are referring to #pragma
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 674 2013-09-14 08:31:21 <phantomcircuit> warren, i was actually referring to forking sub processes that use various features and waiting for them to signal they're alive or for them to die
 675 2013-09-14 08:31:59 <gmaxwell> ... thats insane nonsense!
 676 2013-09-14 08:32:05 <gmaxwell> on x86 you just read the MSRs!
 677 2013-09-14 08:32:12 <gmaxwell> and call the right code.
 678 2013-09-14 08:32:19 <gmaxwell> 100001 different packages handle this fine.
 679 2013-09-14 08:32:19 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lots of people do it lol
 680 2013-09-14 08:32:29 <phantomcircuit> YOLO
 681 2013-09-14 08:32:33 * phantomcircuit runs
 682 2013-09-14 08:33:02 <sipa> MSR?
 683 2013-09-14 08:33:10 <gmaxwell> (arm otoh, ... is really screwed up because the register with the flags can only be read in kernel mode, and every os version provides a different interface... linux code on arm usually searches the ascii proc cpu info text.. :( )
 684 2013-09-14 08:33:24 <gmaxwell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-specific_register
 685 2013-09-14 08:33:59 <phantomcircuit> sipa, magic special register
 686 2013-09-14 08:34:05 <phantomcircuit> (feature flags)
 687 2013-09-14 08:34:08 <sipa> ok
 688 2013-09-14 08:34:35 MoALTz has joined
 689 2013-09-14 08:35:06 <warren> We'll push a init.cpp thing that saves that at runtime for anything else to use.
 690 2013-09-14 08:35:22 <warren> So we can add all kinds of hardware specific inconsistency across bitcoin.
 691 2013-09-14 08:36:58 <phantomcircuit> hmm apparently stratum has things as bigendian
 692 2013-09-14 08:37:06 <phantomcircuit> which i guess sort of makes sense for a network protocol
 693 2013-09-14 08:37:12 <phantomcircuit> except it's hex encoded json
 694 2013-09-14 08:37:14 <sipa> \o/ endianness inconsistencies
 695 2013-09-14 08:37:15 <phantomcircuit> so not really
 696 2013-09-14 08:37:37 <phantomcircuit> sipa, "4d16b6f85af6e2198f44ae2a6de67f78487ae5611b77c6c0440b921e00000000"
 697 2013-09-14 08:37:40 <phantomcircuit> block hash value
 698 2013-09-14 08:38:01 <phantomcircuit> which is of course backwards from getblocktemplate
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 722 2013-09-14 09:20:37 <hydromet> I see there was a switch to the autotools build system for Bitcoin-Qt ...
 723 2013-09-14 09:20:39 <hydromet> autotools is specifically the GNU build system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_build_system ?
 724 2013-09-14 09:21:04 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 725 2013-09-14 09:28:39 <sipa> i suppose
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 727 2013-09-14 09:29:00 <hydromet> sipa: what was used before autotools?
 728 2013-09-14 09:29:08 edcba has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 729 2013-09-14 09:29:10 <sipa> ad-hoc makefiles
 730 2013-09-14 09:29:22 <sipa> and qmake for bitcoin-qt
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 732 2013-09-14 09:30:00 <hydromet> sipa: yikes ... so the instructions for making have entirely changed now
 733 2013-09-14 09:30:04 <sipa> yes
 734 2013-09-14 09:30:09 <hydromet> fun
 735 2013-09-14 09:30:15 <sipa> and documentation is still to be updated, iirc
 736 2013-09-14 09:30:27 <hydromet> any suggestions, sans documentation?
 737 2013-09-14 09:31:12 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
 738 2013-09-14 09:31:39 <sipa> on linux it's just ./autogen.sh && ./configure && make
 739 2013-09-14 09:31:49 <sipa> with some luck it's the same on osx
 740 2013-09-14 09:32:05 <sipa> maybe it needs to params to configure
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 743 2013-09-14 09:36:18 <hydromet> sipa: thanks, I'll give this a try on OS X in a little bit and report back
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 747 2013-09-14 09:37:53 <fanquake> hydromet sipa is correct, ./autogen.sh && ./configure && make is right for osx
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 754 2013-09-14 09:46:45 <hydromet> fanquake: thanks for confirming sipa's comments
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 760 2013-09-14 09:58:30 <hydromet> fanquake: when using autotools on OS X, since qmake is no longer invoked directly, how do we specify to enable UPNP and SSL? For example in the past, qmake would be passed CONFIG+=debug USE_UPNP=1 USE_SSL=1
 761 2013-09-14 09:59:44 <sipa> it's just autodetected
 762 2013-09-14 10:00:17 <hydromet> ok
 763 2013-09-14 10:00:32 <sipa> you can use --without-miniupnpc to disable upnp for example
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 765 2013-09-14 10:00:56 <hydromet> so the defaults are to enable UPNP and enable SSL ... good!
 766 2013-09-14 10:00:57 <sipa> or --enable-debug
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 770 2013-09-14 10:01:23 <sipa> there's --enable-upnp-default to turn upnp on by default
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 772 2013-09-14 10:02:13 <swulf--> is MinGW still the de facto build system for Bitcoin-Qt on windows?
 773 2013-09-14 10:02:13 wiretapped has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 774 2013-09-14 10:02:30 <sipa> yes
 775 2013-09-14 10:02:32 <swulf--> s/build system/toolset
 776 2013-09-14 10:02:51 <greBit> Hello, any kind souls out there who can help me with libBitcoin and Genjix's SX tools? How do I actually get a leveldb blockchain?
 777 2013-09-14 10:02:59 <swulf--> sipa: is there any interest in moving away from mingw?
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 779 2013-09-14 10:03:08 <sipa> swulf--: not afaik; any reason to?
 780 2013-09-14 10:03:26 <swulf--> mingw isn't a particularly common toolset to develop with on windows
 781 2013-09-14 10:03:43 <swulf--> and cmake, for example, could handle both visual studio and mingw
 782 2013-09-14 10:04:07 <sipa> visual studio would at least require someone knowledgable to step up to make the source VS-compatible and maintain that
 783 2013-09-14 10:04:13 <sipa> as none of the core devs use windows
 784 2013-09-14 10:04:17 <swulf--> i could probably do that
 785 2013-09-14 10:04:23 <swulf--> i just have to motivate myself ;)
 786 2013-09-14 10:04:43 <sipa> but i don't consider "isn't common" a very good reason not to use it
 787 2013-09-14 10:04:54 <swulf--> perhaps
 788 2013-09-14 10:04:59 <sipa> it's much easier to maintain now, as it's just GCC, and works within gitian
 789 2013-09-14 10:05:04 <swulf--> who's the current maintainer of Bitcoin-Qt on windows?
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 792 2013-09-14 10:05:15 <sipa> diapolo, i guess
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 794 2013-09-14 10:05:37 <sipa> he's the only windows user who contributes to bitcoin-qt, afaik
 795 2013-09-14 10:06:47 <sipa> and as gitian depends on a linux build environment, releases will almost certainly remain mingw as well
 796 2013-09-14 10:06:59 gst has joined
 797 2013-09-14 10:07:19 <swulf--> ah, ok
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 799 2013-09-14 10:08:13 <sipa> though originally, bitcoin was actually a VS project
 800 2013-09-14 10:08:20 <sipa> windows-only and GUI-only :)
 801 2013-09-14 10:08:41 <swulf--> satoshi's original client?
 802 2013-09-14 10:08:46 <sipa> yes
 803 2013-09-14 10:08:48 <swulf--> awesome
 804 2013-09-14 10:09:07 <sipa> it's one of the things that help me consider him human :p
 805 2013-09-14 10:09:19 <swulf--> nobody's perfect ;)
 806 2013-09-14 10:09:41 <sipa> anyway, that old build system has been unmaintained/unused and eventually deleted years ago
 807 2013-09-14 10:09:52 <swulf--> right
 808 2013-09-14 10:10:01 <sipa> and there are probbably actually source incompatibilities now
 809 2013-09-14 10:10:15 <swulf--> probably nothing too difficult to fix
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 834 2013-09-14 11:14:18 <hydromet> interestingly, I was able to run Bitcoin-Qt (which I had built on 27 August 2013) a few minutes ago and the error panel that previously appeared a few days ago (requiring the checklevel=2 workaround) did not appear
 835 2013-09-14 11:14:45 <sipa> that's very normal
 836 2013-09-14 11:14:55 <sipa> only the last part of the chain is checked at startup
 837 2013-09-14 11:15:09 <sipa> since the weird transactions are old enough, they're outside the window
 838 2013-09-14 11:15:52 <hydromet> ah! cool
 839 2013-09-14 11:16:51 <hydromet> sipa: was that weird transaction an anomaly? likely to occur again in the future?
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 842 2013-09-14 11:17:59 <jouke> hydromet: it might occur again.
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 858 2013-09-14 11:48:42 <hydromet> I'd like to build 0.8.4 from Github to avail of the security fix as noted in this article http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-0-8-4-update-provides-security-improvements/
 859 2013-09-14 11:49:08 GordonG3kko has joined
 860 2013-09-14 11:49:43 <hydromet> that article was published 4 September 2013 but my git client is showing what appears to be a final date stamp for 0.8.4 of 20 August 2013
 861 2013-09-14 11:50:46 <hydromet> is there any way to track down specifically what commit this security update for 0.8.4 came from? I'm reading through the notes and its not yet clear
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 864 2013-09-14 11:54:22 <sipa> hydromet: we're at 0.8.5 by now
 865 2013-09-14 11:54:55 <hydromet> sipa: I know, but I want to try and build 0.8.4 with my existing Qt-5 tools installed (prior to the change over to autotools)
 866 2013-09-14 11:55:41 <hydromet> why would the security update article about 0.8.4 be published on 4 September but the last update to 0.8.4 was in August?
 867 2013-09-14 11:55:59 <sipa> the commit is authored on august 20
 868 2013-09-14 11:56:16 <sipa> doesn't mean it was merged at that point
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 872 2013-09-14 11:56:25 <hydromet> ah
 873 2013-09-14 11:56:51 <sipa> the v0.8.4 git tag has timestamp "Wed Sep 4 06:45:01 2013 +1000"
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 875 2013-09-14 11:57:58 <sipa> also, i don't understand why 0.8.4 and not 0.8.5
 876 2013-09-14 11:59:23 <hydromet> sipa: at this moment I don't want to yet retrograde to Qt-4 (from Qt-5) on my development system ... I will in a few days from now but want to get my friend a version sooner with the security update in 0.8.4 (my friend is paranoid about his wallet)
 877 2013-09-14 12:00:05 <hydromet> I'm helping a friend who is not tech savvy
 878 2013-09-14 12:00:27 <sipa> the only change between 0.8.4 and 0.8.5 is a bugfix for the incorrect corruption warning
 879 2013-09-14 12:00:37 <sipa> if 0.8.4 builds, 0.8.5 will too
 880 2013-09-14 12:00:57 <hydromet> sipa: from the timeline, I thought 0.8.4 was prior to the switch over to autotools
 881 2013-09-14 12:01:03 <sipa> yes, it is
 882 2013-09-14 12:01:06 <sipa> so is 0.8.5
 883 2013-09-14 12:01:15 <sipa> only git master is on autotools
 884 2013-09-14 12:01:20 <hydromet> really? now I'm confuse
 885 2013-09-14 12:01:28 <sipa> but there are no releases yet from the master branch
 886 2013-09-14 12:01:36 <sipa> only security backports to the 0.8 line
 887 2013-09-14 12:02:54 <hydromet> hmmm ... I thought gavin had mentioned to me several hours ago that 0.8.5 probably wouldn't build on OS X with Qt-5 due to the problem of autotools and Qt-5 on OS X not playing well together (so he reverted to Qt-4 using MacPorts), but maybe he meant for master
 888 2013-09-14 12:03:21 <sipa> i suppose so
 889 2013-09-14 12:03:35 <sipa> 0.8.5 doesn't have any qt or build changes
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 891 2013-09-14 12:07:16 <hydromet> sipa: great, then I will try with 0.8.5
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 893 2013-09-14 12:08:31 <hydromet> sipa: when do you predict autotools might end up being required for branches outside master?
 894 2013-09-14 12:08:52 <sipa> 0.9
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 896 2013-09-14 12:12:17 <warren> hmm, what is an #ifdef to use "is this x86 of any type"?
 897 2013-09-14 12:12:52 <sipa> i'd use sizeof(void*), but that doesn't work at preprocessor stage :)
 898 2013-09-14 12:13:27 <warren> eh?
 899 2013-09-14 12:13:51 <warren> basically I want to #ifdef to copy CPUID only on x86 (but not arm)
 900 2013-09-14 12:13:59 <sipa> oh
 901 2013-09-14 12:14:18 <sipa> sorry, i thought you meant x86 vs x86_64
 902 2013-09-14 12:14:39 <warren> gmaxwell said to save it as an integer global in init.cpp and submit this to bitcoin
 903 2013-09-14 12:14:44 <sipa> no idea; perhaps compiler-dependent
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 906 2013-09-14 12:15:44 <warren> http://git.xiph.org/?p=opus-tools.git;a=blob;f=src/cpusupport.h;h=d68cf0c4f724bd3d35fc03f8cd701d690a5e8c37;hb=HEAD  He pointed at this as an example, although it does flag testing instead of saving the integer.
 907 2013-09-14 12:18:07 pablog has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 908 2013-09-14 12:18:39 <zeddan81> Ìû
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 912 2013-09-14 12:23:28 <jgarzik> warren, __i386__ || __x86_64__
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 917 2013-09-14 12:23:58 <sipa> i assume the assembly to fetch cpuid also differs between i386 and x86_64
 918 2013-09-14 12:24:08 <jgarzik> it shouldn't
 919 2013-09-14 12:24:26 <jgarzik> cpuid in long mode should be the same as cpuid in 32-bit mode
 920 2013-09-14 12:26:22 <warren> jgarzik: that works on windows and mac too?
 921 2013-09-14 12:26:44 <jgarzik> warren, it should yes
 922 2013-09-14 12:27:29 <jgarzik> RE cpuid, I was going between 32-bit mode and 64-bit mode while playing with data storage and registers: http://gtf.org/garzik/misc/mmx-test.c
 923 2013-09-14 12:27:50 <warren> ok, so the cpuid global int only gets set #if defined(__i386__) || defined(__x86_64__)
 924 2013-09-14 12:27:51 <jgarzik> just a few days ago.  cpuid is definitely the same in both modes.
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 926 2013-09-14 12:28:45 <jgarzik> it's basically a tiny library, that stores a "uint256_t" type in SSE2 or MMX registers
 927 2013-09-14 12:28:55 <jgarzik> as a nice alternative for key storage, than RAM
 928 2013-09-14 12:29:26 <warren> jgarzik: http://git.xiph.org/?p=opus-tools.git;a=blob_plain;f=src/cpusupport.h;h=d68cf0c4f724bd3d35fc03f8cd701d690a5e8c37;hb=HEAD
 929 2013-09-14 12:29:33 <warren> jgarzik: I apparently need this other method for win32?
 930 2013-09-14 12:29:48 <jgarzik> for my "security robot" project (a sort of highly secure key storage)
 931 2013-09-14 12:30:19 <jgarzik> warren, all that code demonstrates is what is necessary to find a library with cpuid() on various platforms
 932 2013-09-14 12:30:39 <jgarzik> warren, that is not a check for processor type
 933 2013-09-14 12:30:44 <warren> I know
 934 2013-09-14 12:30:51 <warren> I'm doing something different from this
 935 2013-09-14 12:32:19 <warren> hm
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 937 2013-09-14 12:33:35 * jgarzik is disappointed at the lack of "data storage" registers, for the purposes just described, on non-x86 platforms
 938 2013-09-14 12:34:09 <jgarzik> CISC is wonderfully complex, and inevitably includes some extra register sets, if not a few spare registers untouched in normal operation, such as debug registers
 939 2013-09-14 12:35:17 <jgarzik> RISC, OTOH, ...
 940 2013-09-14 12:36:49 <warren> jgarzik: is there a way in linux to fake the cpuid in order to test the different codepaths?
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 942 2013-09-14 12:37:01 <warren> jgarzik: particularly 32bit x86 without SSE2
 943 2013-09-14 12:38:19 <jgarzik> warren, I don't understand the question
 944 2013-09-14 12:38:31 <jgarzik> warren, if you want to test a codepath… stick in a flag and test that codepath
 945 2013-09-14 12:38:53 <jgarzik> --clear-sse2-bit-from-cpuid
 946 2013-09-14 12:39:31 <warren> jgarzik: I want to be sure that my runtime selecting code runs properly on pre-SSE2 hardware
 947 2013-09-14 12:39:52 <jgarzik> --debug-no-sse2
 948 2013-09-14 12:40:09 <jgarzik> --debug-disable-all-fancy-features :)
 949 2013-09-14 12:40:19 <sipa>  --do-what-i-want
 950 2013-09-14 12:41:16 <jgarzik> if (dwim) edx &= ~(1U << 26);
 951 2013-09-14 12:41:25 <jgarzik> simple
 952 2013-09-14 12:41:41 <jgarzik> (26 is the SSE2 bit in cpuid's edx return value)
 953 2013-09-14 12:42:32 <jgarzik> On a different note
 954 2013-09-14 12:43:08 <jgarzik> I have decided I like JavaScript, but it is too broken to be used as is.  It needs:  (1) accurate integer math, (2) accurate integer math, (3) ...
 955 2013-09-14 12:43:48 <jgarzik> I want JS with optional static typing and python3-like integers
 956 2013-09-14 12:44:16 <jgarzik> C-like bit math should work without headaches (it does not in JS)
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 963 2013-09-14 12:52:37 <sipa> pfff, i really don't feel like digging through bitcoinj to figure out why headers-first fails with it
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 965 2013-09-14 12:54:24 <jgarzik> sipa, I don't feel like digging through bitcoinj to add P2SH, but it appears that is what we must do
 966 2013-09-14 12:54:35 <jgarzik> (we == I, most likely)
 967 2013-09-14 12:54:57 <sipa> i expect that to be easy
 968 2013-09-14 12:55:01 <jgarzik> TD does not really like P2SH :/
 969 2013-09-14 12:55:03 <sipa> but yeah, not feeling like that either
 970 2013-09-14 12:55:25 * jgarzik -> not a fan of Java
 971 2013-09-14 12:55:30 <warren> hmm, we only care about saving the feature information, not the other stuff from cpuid right?
 972 2013-09-14 12:55:37 * sipa -> neither
 973 2013-09-14 12:55:59 <jgarzik> warren, cpuid is not an expensive instruction...
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 975 2013-09-14 12:56:18 <sipa> as long as you don't run it in a tight loop
 976 2013-09-14 12:56:39 <warren> jgarzik: if I understand him correctly, he said save it as a global variable in init.cpp for others to use in whatever way they want
 977 2013-09-14 12:56:45 <sipa> (it flushes the execution pipeline, afaik)
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 982 2013-09-14 12:57:44 <jgarzik> warren, hum, back up a sec :)  dumb question: why are you storing cpuid feature bits in init.cpp?
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 984 2013-09-14 12:58:10 <jgarzik> warren, are we talking about bitcoin-derived codebase?
 985 2013-09-14 12:58:13 <warren> jgarzik: it makes no sense to query it many times later during runtime
 986 2013-09-14 12:58:48 <warren> jgarzik: we have a SSE2 optimized part of litecoin that's 50% faster.  gmaxwell said bitcoin might want something similar in the future, so to put something generic in init.cpp that can be flag tested.
 987 2013-09-14 12:58:56 <jgarzik> warren, Yes, almost all cpuid users execute it once upon startup, then refer to returned results
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 990 2013-09-14 12:59:47 <warren> so I'm going to save only the features that appears to be put into edx as an unsigned integer
 991 2013-09-14 13:00:13 <jgarzik> warren, but at least wrap it in a tiny processor-intrinsics class or similar, if this is for long term bitcoin codebase use
 992 2013-09-14 13:00:33 <warren> jgarzik: I'd need to see an example of this
 993 2013-09-14 13:00:35 <jgarzik> rather that blat "cpuid_edx" as a global var in the global namespace
 994 2013-09-14 13:00:39 <jgarzik> *than
 995 2013-09-14 13:00:40 paraipan has joined
 996 2013-09-14 13:01:29 <warren> I'm going to make it work for our use, then someone can tell me how to do it properly.
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1001 2013-09-14 13:07:59 <jgarzik> Awesome!  USB condoms: http://venturebeat.com/2013/09/13/phone-charger-condoms/
1002 2013-09-14 13:08:17 <jgarzik> makes sense
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1006 2013-09-14 13:11:27 <warren> scrypt.h:
1007 2013-09-14 13:11:28 <warren> void scrypt_1024_1_1_256_sp_sse2(const char *input, char *output, char *scratchpad);
1008 2013-09-14 13:11:28 <warren> void scrypt_1024_1_1_256_sp(const char *input, char *output, char *scratchpad);
1009 2013-09-14 13:11:30 <hydromet> sipa: I just started from scratch, git cloning the 0.8.5 branch into a fresh new directory on my Mac development machine (with Qt-5) and when I tried to make it (qmake etc.) I got the same error as I did several hours ago
1010 2013-09-14 13:11:37 <warren> hmm
1011 2013-09-14 13:11:48 <hydromet> sipa: so apparently Gavin was correct that 0.8.5 doesn't like Qt-5 on OS X
1012 2013-09-14 13:11:55 <hydromet> sipa: master branch or no master branch
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1014 2013-09-14 13:12:14 <hydromet> sipa: so now I will try 0.8.4
1015 2013-09-14 13:12:26 <warren> hydromet: that didn't change
1016 2013-09-14 13:13:42 <hydromet> warren: sigh, well something must have changed because on 27 August 2013 I had no problem building on OS X (with Gavin's suggestions) with qmake etc. with Qt-5 on my Mac
1017 2013-09-14 13:13:57 <hydromet> warren: Gavin has since reverted to Qt-4 via MacPorts and dumped Qt-5
1018 2013-09-14 13:14:12 <hydromet> warren: apparently autotools and Qt-5 do not like each other on OS X
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1021 2013-09-14 13:14:31 <hydromet> warren: but apparently autotools are not in the 0.8.5 branch?
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1023 2013-09-14 13:15:26 <warren> hydromet: 0.8.4 and 0.8.5 are nearly the same thing, and pre auto tools
1024 2013-09-14 13:15:28 <jgarzik> hydromet, autotools are not in the 0.8.5 branch
1025 2013-09-14 13:15:34 <jgarzik> nor 0.8.4
1026 2013-09-14 13:16:08 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/v0.8.4...v0.8.5
1027 2013-09-14 13:16:17 <hydromet> sigh
1028 2013-09-14 13:16:18 <sipa> that's the diff between 0.8.4 and 0.8.5
1029 2013-09-14 13:16:33 <sipa> are you sure you chedk out 0.8.5 and not master?
1030 2013-09-14 13:17:23 <hydromet> maybe I screwed that up but using my git client I specifically asked to clone from the 0.8.5 branch
1031 2013-09-14 13:18:02 <sipa> you don't close a branch, you lone a repository
1032 2013-09-14 13:18:13 <sipa> within a repository, you checkout a branch
1033 2013-09-14 13:18:15 <jgarzik> hydromet, git clone git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git && git checkout -b tmp v0.8.5
1034 2013-09-14 13:18:26 <jgarzik> hydromet, git clone git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git && cd bitcoin && git checkout -b tmp v0.8.5
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1036 2013-09-14 13:19:57 <hydromet> actually I used the wrong language sorry, I just looked at screen capture of my git client and I cloned https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git but also checked out branch 0.8.5
1037 2013-09-14 13:20:20 <sipa> ok
1038 2013-09-14 13:20:28 <sipa> what is in clientversion.h?
1039 2013-09-14 13:20:42 imton has joined
1040 2013-09-14 13:20:48 <sipa> CLIENT_VERSION_REVISION in particular
1041 2013-09-14 13:21:35 <hydromet> #define CLIENT_VERSION_REVISION    5
1042 2013-09-14 13:21:57 <warren> hmm, if I want to set a function pointer during startup to use either scrypt_1024_1_1_256_sp_sse2() or scrypt_1024_1_1_256_sp(), do I want to do it in init.cpp?
1043 2013-09-14 13:22:22 <hydromet> perhaps I should not use a git client with a GUI (I'm using a git client named SourceTree - I like having a GUI but maybe I should just go CLI)?
1044 2013-09-14 13:22:43 <imton> guys  , how can multisig txs no-completed signed be broadcasted?
1045 2013-09-14 13:22:53 <jgarzik> sigh
1046 2013-09-14 13:23:05 <jgarzik> this auction project makes me want watch-only addresses
1047 2013-09-14 13:23:20 * jgarzik tries to recall Gavin's point about watch-only wallets versus watch-only addresses
1048 2013-09-14 13:23:22 <sipa> imton: you can only broadcast fully-signed transactions
1049 2013-09-14 13:23:53 <jgarzik> imton, what sipa said.  Partially signed multisig transactions must be passed around via email or some other means.
1050 2013-09-14 13:24:40 <sipa> jgarzik: i tried to come up with watch-only addresses that can be integrated with spendable addresses within the same wallet, but the semantics are a bit fuzzy
1051 2013-09-14 13:24:55 <sipa> gavin prefers whole wallets to be spendable or not, and i think i agree
1052 2013-09-14 13:24:55 <imton> sipa jgarzik I see. Is there any way in the future to implement a solution for this?
1053 2013-09-14 13:25:02 <sipa> imton: absolutely not
1054 2013-09-14 13:25:17 <sipa> imton: there is no point in requiring the world to mirror your invalid transaction
1055 2013-09-14 13:25:41 <sipa> jgarzik: apart from the fact that multiwallet seems stalled
1056 2013-09-14 13:25:44 pablog has quit (Quit: pablog)
1057 2013-09-14 13:26:04 pablog has joined
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1059 2013-09-14 13:26:04 pablog has joined
1060 2013-09-14 13:26:14 <jgarzik> sipa, reviewing gavin's comments on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2861 it sounds like the PR can move forward with minor RPC additions
1061 2013-09-14 13:26:20 <imton> sipa: I agree with that, but maybe there could be a messaging system on top of bitcoin-network for this kind of situations...
1062 2013-09-14 13:26:20 <jgarzik> I could probably do that
1063 2013-09-14 13:26:37 <jgarzik> imton, like bitmessage?
1064 2013-09-14 13:26:51 <jgarzik> or irc?  or AIM?  or email?  or...
1065 2013-09-14 13:26:52 <imton> jgarzik I have no idea what bit message is ..
1066 2013-09-14 13:27:00 <jgarzik> imton, I bet Google knows ;p
1067 2013-09-14 13:27:05 <sipa> imton: sure, just have some protocol to negotiate transactions between participating parties to build up transactions
1068 2013-09-14 13:27:12 <jgarzik> or http
1069 2013-09-14 13:27:15 <sipa> and when they're done, broadcast on the bitcoin p2p network
1070 2013-09-14 13:28:11 <imton> sipa: but that protocol should be implemented separately right?
1071 2013-09-14 13:28:18 <sipa> yes
1072 2013-09-14 13:28:35 <sipa> it doesn't belong in the p2p sysem
1073 2013-09-14 13:28:55 fpanda has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1074 2013-09-14 13:30:30 <imton> how will the proposed payment protocol send the request to from the merchant to the buyer ?
1075 2013-09-14 13:30:37 <imton> (may be I understood it wrong)
1076 2013-09-14 13:30:46 <sipa> the buyer fetches it
1077 2013-09-14 13:30:48 <sipa> https
1078 2013-09-14 13:31:25 <sipa> and then sends a transaction + metadata back
1079 2013-09-14 13:31:35 <imton> fetches from?
1080 2013-09-14 13:32:06 <sipa> the merchant
1081 2013-09-14 13:32:33 <imton> oh, so the request doesn't come from the bitcoin network, right?
1082 2013-09-14 13:32:39 <sipa> no, not at all
1083 2013-09-14 13:32:49 <sipa> the network is only involved when the deal is done
1084 2013-09-14 13:32:58 <sipa> and the transaction is broadcast
1085 2013-09-14 13:33:37 <imton> ok. so there is no way to send anything that isn't a properly signed tx right?
1086 2013-09-14 13:33:53 <sipa> no, why would you?
1087 2013-09-14 13:34:13 <sipa> the only reason to broadcast it is to get it into a block
1088 2013-09-14 13:34:36 <imton> my idea is to rely *on* the bitcoin network to send a message (whatever it is)
1089 2013-09-14 13:34:52 <sipa> DO NOT
1090 2013-09-14 13:35:04 <sipa> it's not designed for that, it's expensive and unreliable
1091 2013-09-14 13:35:15 <sipa> it may seem easy because of existing infrastructure
1092 2013-09-14 13:35:20 <sipa> but it's really a bad solution
1093 2013-09-14 13:35:41 <imton> if I properly sign a tx that is send to my self, and do not include any fee.... couldn't I send a message and everybody connected will get it?
1094 2013-09-14 13:36:00 <sipa> why would anyone want to get it?
1095 2013-09-14 13:36:16 <imton> I won't do it. I am just trying to understand all parts of bitcoin.
1096 2013-09-14 13:36:17 <sipa> you're forcing people to download data that is irrelevant to maintaining the system
1097 2013-09-14 13:36:33 <sipa> you're just abusing it as a horribly inefficient communication mechnaism
1098 2013-09-14 13:36:52 <imton> because that message could be a partially signed tx
1099 2013-09-14 13:36:53 <sipa> ok, see it this way
1100 2013-09-14 13:37:06 <sipa> bitcoin-the-network is an incredibly expensive system
1101 2013-09-14 13:37:15 <sipa> if you count the cost of all full nodes that are running
1102 2013-09-14 13:37:20 <sipa> and bandwidth it uses
1103 2013-09-14 13:37:47 <sipa> people run nodes for free because they believe it helps building something that is valuable: a worldwide payment system with many advantages
1104 2013-09-14 13:37:49 wei_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1105 2013-09-14 13:38:09 <sipa> but if you're going to abuse that network for other purposes, you're increasing everyone's costs, without making it more useful
1106 2013-09-14 13:38:37 <sipa> the only data that belongs in the network is whatever is necessary for the world to validate that nobody is cheating
1107 2013-09-14 13:39:00 <imton> ok, as I told you, I get that principle and I agree. I would be not ethical at all.
1108 2013-09-14 13:39:07 <sipa> ok
1109 2013-09-14 13:39:38 <imton> I am just trying to understand.
1110 2013-09-14 13:39:58 <sipa> i don't understand why you would even want to do that, even if it were ethical and cheap
1111 2013-09-14 13:40:14 <sipa> it's slow and unreliable
1112 2013-09-14 13:40:21 <sipa> and has very bad privacy properties
1113 2013-09-14 13:40:35 <sipa> just keep the data to whomever still needs to sign
1114 2013-09-14 13:41:29 <imton> I mean, it would be awesome if in your client appears a kind of a "push notification"/popup  and ask you "do you accept?" something like that
1115 2013-09-14 13:41:46 <sipa> sure
1116 2013-09-14 13:41:50 wei_ has joined
1117 2013-09-14 13:41:54 <sipa> but we have TCP/IP
1118 2013-09-14 13:41:56 <sipa> and email
1119 2013-09-14 13:42:01 <sipa> and IM
1120 2013-09-14 13:42:04 <imton> the idea of a notification, that it comes from the bitcoin-network it self, would be much more user friendly that passing weird hexs
1121 2013-09-14 13:42:13 <imton> or base-wahetever
1122 2013-09-14 13:42:20 <sipa> what does user-friendlyness have to do with it
1123 2013-09-14 13:42:29 <sipa> you just need a good interface for that
1124 2013-09-14 13:42:45 <sipa> the protocol used behind the scenes doesn't need to be visible to users
1125 2013-09-14 13:42:56 <sipa> oh, and i agree, human shouldn't ever see transactions or addresses
1126 2013-09-14 13:43:23 <sipa> i don't mean passing transaction in hex manually around in emails or IM
1127 2013-09-14 13:43:30 <imton> how would you implement that for bitcoin-qt?
1128 2013-09-14 13:43:31 <sipa> i just mean using similar technology
1129 2013-09-14 13:44:05 <sipa> i'm no user experience designer :D
1130 2013-09-14 13:44:36 <imton> my requirement would be that a user partially signed the tx and the other 2 (2-of-3) receive a notification that they may redeem/spend if they want that tx.
1131 2013-09-14 13:44:54 <sipa> sounds good
1132 2013-09-14 13:44:57 <imton> no problem about the UX (i am a ui/ux designer btw)
1133 2013-09-14 13:45:16 <imton> I mean the "notification" system/protocol behind?
1134 2013-09-14 13:45:19 <imton> how would you do it?
1135 2013-09-14 13:45:29 <sipa> send email-s with an attachment that you can open using the client?
1136 2013-09-14 13:45:37 <sipa> or have an own broadcast network
1137 2013-09-14 13:45:54 <imton> no email... yeah.. 2nd one I think.
1138 2013-09-14 13:46:04 <sipa> or have a server that listens for incoming connections, like the payment protocol
1139 2013-09-14 13:46:26 <sipa> if the internet weren't crippled by NAT, that'd be a perfect solution
1140 2013-09-14 13:46:37 <sipa> now you perhaps need a proxy like an email server is now
1141 2013-09-14 13:46:50 <sipa> where you have an account at some payment provider that runs the software
1142 2013-09-14 13:46:56 <sipa> though you can just run it yourself too
1143 2013-09-14 13:47:12 <imton> yeah
1144 2013-09-14 13:47:17 <sipa> the payment protocol can just be extended to support things like that
1145 2013-09-14 13:47:28 <imton> I would love to understand more about that
1146 2013-09-14 13:47:32 <imton> I still don't get it
1147 2013-09-14 13:47:35 iwilcox has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
1148 2013-09-14 13:47:35 <imton> specially the "have a server that listens for incoming connections, like the payment protocol" part
1149 2013-09-14 13:47:52 <imton> i haven't read much about it tbh
1150 2013-09-14 13:47:52 <sipa> it's a webserver
1151 2013-09-14 13:48:01 <sipa> you request a payment descriptor
1152 2013-09-14 13:48:05 <sipa> and then send a payment back
1153 2013-09-14 13:48:07 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1154 2013-09-14 13:48:29 <warren> hmm.... is it possible to assign a function pointer dynamically in C++?  (I might not be calling it the right thing...)
1155 2013-09-14 13:48:42 <sipa> warren: how do you mean?>
1156 2013-09-14 13:49:02 <sipa> imton: now look at that webserver as something like a mailserver, that remembers incoming messages
1157 2013-09-14 13:49:16 iwilcox has joined
1158 2013-09-14 13:49:36 <sipa> imton: and you can connect to it with something like a mailclient, to receive incomi ng (partial) payments
1159 2013-09-14 13:49:52 <warren> void scrypt_1024_1_1_256_sp_sse2(const char *input, char *output, char *scratchpad);
1160 2013-09-14 13:49:53 <warren> void scrypt_1024_1_1_256_sp(const char *input, char *output, char *scratchpad);
1161 2013-09-14 13:50:08 <imton> sipa:  who will run that server?
1162 2013-09-14 13:50:40 <sipa> imton: anyone who needs to
1163 2013-09-14 13:50:50 <warren> sipa: these two functions do the same thing, just built separately.  If SSE2 is detected, I want a function to be the former instead of the latter, so dynamic assignment during runtime.
1164 2013-09-14 13:51:03 <sipa> warren: ok, so define a function pointer variable
1165 2013-09-14 13:51:08 <sipa> and set it to one or the other?
1166 2013-09-14 13:51:49 <jgarzik> or just a simple branch, which is more friendly to static linking and some branch prediction hardware.   if (sse) foo else bar
1167 2013-09-14 13:52:03 <jgarzik> function pointer is cleaner, from the code's perspective
1168 2013-09-14 13:52:19 <jgarzik> but ever so slightly less performant
1169 2013-09-14 13:52:29 <warren> huh!
1170 2013-09-14 13:52:53 <warren> I would have thought a function pointer performs better than a conditional.
1171 2013-09-14 13:53:31 <sipa> no, worse
1172 2013-09-14 13:53:44 <jgarzik> actually , assuming sse is fastest:  if (!sse) foo else bar
1173 2013-09-14 13:53:44 <jgarzik> standard assumption is branch-not-taken
1174 2013-09-14 13:54:02 <sipa> because you need to know the contents of the variable before you can start executing
1175 2013-09-14 13:54:03 <jgarzik> scrypt could also benefit from prefetch instructions
1176 2013-09-14 13:54:51 <warren> ok, I understand the branch prediction hardware standard assumption, but I don't get why a function pointer would be slower than a static function?
1177 2013-09-14 13:54:51 hydromet has left ()
1178 2013-09-14 13:55:05 <jgarzik> though I haven't really studied scrypt…  I think litecoin's scrypt fits entirely within L1 anyway
1179 2013-09-14 13:55:13 <jgarzik> and surely L2 if not L1
1180 2013-09-14 13:55:19 <warren> L2 yes
1181 2013-09-14 13:56:42 <jgarzik> warren, a static function call is known at compile time.  the compiler can, for example, know that it is making a short jump within the current code segment.  there are several micro-optimizations that become available if you know the -exact- address of your functions at compile time.
1182 2013-09-14 13:57:52 <imton> sipa: oh, and btw, thank you for the watch-only pull :) I kind of love you. I now need to change all my code from the searchrawtransaction pull but it will be worth it
1183 2013-09-14 13:58:17 <imton> *searchaddress sorry, or something like that
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1186 2013-09-14 14:00:02 <warren> jgarzik: "some branch prediction hardware" meaning all modern x86 processors, where standard assumption is branch-not-taken?
1187 2013-09-14 14:00:13 fpanda has joined
1188 2013-09-14 14:00:40 <sipa> conditional jumps forward are assumed to be not taken, backards are assumed to be taken
1189 2013-09-14 14:00:43 <sipa> afaik
1190 2013-09-14 14:00:55 pablog has quit (Quit: pablog)
1191 2013-09-14 14:00:55 <sipa> backward ones
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1195 2013-09-14 14:01:42 <jgarzik> sipa, it's mainly a matter of compiler behavior, as the compiler rearranges the code sections depending on what it thinks is right
1196 2013-09-14 14:01:50 <warren> are bitcoin conditionals coded with this in mind?  do we have a LIKELY() or UNLIKELY() macro available to us?
1197 2013-09-14 14:01:54 <jgarzik> rearranges to match the target CPU, I mean
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1199 2013-09-14 14:02:10 <swulf--> aren't there ways of telling hte compiler which branch is likely to be taken?
1200 2013-09-14 14:02:14 <jgarzik> warren, "premature optimization is the root of all..."
1201 2013-09-14 14:02:14 <swulf--> ah, what warren said ;)
1202 2013-09-14 14:02:18 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1203 2013-09-14 14:02:33 <warren> jgarzik: in this case I know SSE is faster, so I want to get the conditional correct.
1204 2013-09-14 14:02:35 johnsoft has joined
1205 2013-09-14 14:02:37 <jgarzik> warren, the kernel had a lot of likely() and unlikely(), but those are quite static, and programmers tend to get them wrong.
1206 2013-09-14 14:02:49 <jgarzik> warren, and this is an excellent example :)
1207 2013-09-14 14:02:52 discretefx has joined
1208 2013-09-14 14:03:08 <jgarzik> warren, for !sse cases, you would not want to cause an unlikely() statement that trips every single time
1209 2013-09-14 14:03:36 asuk has joined
1210 2013-09-14 14:03:58 <warren> crap, I'll just benchmark the function pointer for now.
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1212 2013-09-14 14:04:26 <jgarzik> likely() and unlikely() are for situations that apply to all your users.  for cases where certain user populations have feature X and other populations do not, unlikely() can hurt if used naively.
1213 2013-09-14 14:04:32 discrete has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1214 2013-09-14 14:04:37 <warren> I see what you mean.
1215 2013-09-14 14:04:56 <warren> function pointer would punish both populations equally, I guess?
1216 2013-09-14 14:05:04 <jgarzik> for users lacking SSE, the "if (!sse)" branch is 100% likely
1217 2013-09-14 14:05:26 paraipan has joined
1218 2013-09-14 14:05:29 <warren> might be easier to just declare !SSE2 == unsupported, go away
1219 2013-09-14 14:05:35 <warren> less code
1220 2013-09-14 14:05:40 <jgarzik> warren, like I said, "if (!sse) scrypt() else scrypt_sse()" should do what you want
1221 2013-09-14 14:05:57 <jgarzik> warren, but function pointer is cleaner and easier
1222 2013-09-14 14:06:13 <jgarzik> it's all compiled code, so we're just talking little wasted cycles in any case
1223 2013-09-14 14:06:19 <jgarzik> "premature optimization..."
1224 2013-09-14 14:06:35 <jgarzik> though with mining code, I guess people probably do care a bit more
1225 2013-09-14 14:06:52 <warren> this isn't mining code, this is PoW validation
1226 2013-09-14 14:07:10 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1227 2013-09-14 14:08:27 <warren> ok ... I don't even know the syntax to assign a function pointer.
1228 2013-09-14 14:08:29 <jgarzik> After doing CPU-intensive heavy lifting in python and javascript, wasting a few dozen or hundred CPU cycles here and there is just fine to me, now.  Heresy in Linux kernel land… that's what script languages will do to you.
1229 2013-09-14 14:09:06 <sipa> void (*sse_code)(const char *inut, char *output, char *scratchpad);
1230 2013-09-14 14:09:14 macboz has joined
1231 2013-09-14 14:09:27 <sipa> if (see) sse_code = script_1024_1_1_256_sse2;
1232 2013-09-14 14:09:45 <jgarzik> then "sse_code = myfunc" or "see_code = &myfunc" if ampersands give you extra warm fuzzies
1233 2013-09-14 14:09:48 <sipa> and then call sse_code(foo, bar, blah);
1234 2013-09-14 14:11:05 awishformore has joined
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1236 2013-09-14 14:12:07 <warren> jgarzik: I'll do it both ways and compare the performance.  I don't care about the old hardware failing a branch prediction.  the vast majority are in the SSE2 population.
1237 2013-09-14 14:14:15 <warren> sipa: jgarzik: thank you both
1238 2013-09-14 14:14:20 iwilcox has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
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1240 2013-09-14 14:15:51 <jgarzik> warren, well the nice thing about branch prediction is that repeatedly taking a branch is a big hint to h/w
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1243 2013-09-14 14:16:23 <jgarzik> But yes, measurement is best.
1244 2013-09-14 14:16:24 iwilcox has quit (Changing host)
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1246 2013-09-14 14:16:50 <jgarzik> Who knows, maybe a commonly hit indirect function pointer is a case worth optimizing in the CPU these days.
1247 2013-09-14 14:17:14 <jgarzik> Seems like such a feature would help many languages, if it could be implemented efficiently in h/w
1248 2013-09-14 14:17:35 <jgarzik> i.e. tag a bit of memory in L1 with prediction metadata
1249 2013-09-14 14:18:24 iwilcox has quit (Client Quit)
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1252 2013-09-14 14:23:09 <swulf--> jgarzik: can't you just lock the cache line ?
1253 2013-09-14 14:23:16 iwilcox has joined
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1255 2013-09-14 14:24:12 iwilcox has quit (Client Quit)
1256 2013-09-14 14:25:38 <swulf--> maybe not, from my searches.  best you could do is prefetch?
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1266 2013-09-14 14:28:32 <warren> 4;30am and I'm seeing weird linker errors hat I've never seen before.  time to sleep on this.
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1278 2013-09-14 14:47:45 <sipa> ;;blocks
1279 2013-09-14 14:47:45 <gribble> 257970
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1288 2013-09-14 14:55:36 <hydromet> fanquake: I decided to install Qt-4 on OS X and then I started cleanly from master (instead of checking out branch 0.8.5) and had no problem with
1289 2013-09-14 14:55:41 <hydromet> ./autogen.sh && ./configure && make
1290 2013-09-14 14:55:49 <hydromet> per your and sipa suggestion
1291 2013-09-14 14:58:03 <hydromet> the qualm is that it did not build out a Bitcoin-Qt.app for OS X, but I did get an executable built -> src/qt/bitcoin-qt
1292 2013-09-14 14:58:09 <sipa> make deploy
1293 2013-09-14 14:58:11 <sipa> i think
1294 2013-09-14 14:58:25 <hydromet> I also got src/bitcoind built
1295 2013-09-14 14:58:33 <sipa> and the unit tests too
1296 2013-09-14 14:59:03 asa1024 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1297 2013-09-14 14:59:32 <hydromet> sipa: do you mean Making all in test as in  ...
1298 2013-09-14 14:59:32 <hydromet>   CXX      test_bitcoin-bloom_tests.o
1299 2013-09-14 14:59:39 <hydromet> if so, then yep I got them
1300 2013-09-14 15:00:16 <hydromet> I'll try make deploy now
1301 2013-09-14 15:02:47 <hydromet> quite close but make deploy ended in this error
1302 2013-09-14 15:02:50 <hydromet> Error: Could not import appscript which is required for fancy disk images.
1303 2013-09-14 15:02:58 <hydromet> Please install it e.g. with "sudo easy_install appscript".
1304 2013-09-14 15:02:58 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1305 2013-09-14 15:03:10 <hydromet> make: *** [Bitcoin-Qt.dmg] Error 1
1306 2013-09-14 15:03:14 <hydromet> interesting
1307 2013-09-14 15:03:20 <warren> obj/db.o: In function `__gnu_cxx::new_allocator<int>::deallocate(int*, unsigned long)':
1308 2013-09-14 15:03:20 <warren> /home/warren/gitian/litecoin/src/db.cpp:493: multiple definition of `scrypt_1024_1_1_256_sp'
1309 2013-09-14 15:03:20 <warren> obj/checkpoints.o:/home/warren/gitian/litecoin/src/checkpoints.cpp:72: first defined here
1310 2013-09-14 15:04:04 <warren> sipa: followed your suggested syntax, at final link it fails with a bunch of errors like this.  There is no `scrypt_1024_1_1_256_sp' in checkpoints.cpp ...
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1312 2013-09-14 15:08:32 <hydromet> hmm ... http://appscript.sourceforge.net/
1313 2013-09-14 15:08:40 <hydromet> > Please note that appscript is no longer developed or supported, and its use is not recommended for new projects.
1314 2013-09-14 15:11:18 <sipa> warren: is your code in a header file, and included in multiple places?
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1316 2013-09-14 15:11:54 <hydromet> gavinanderson: did you install appscript on OS X so make deploy will create Bitcoin-Qt.app?
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1319 2013-09-14 15:12:29 <warren> sipa: I guess I shouldn't have put the void (*sse_code) ... in there... moving
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1321 2013-09-14 15:13:54 <warren> then I need to tackle the annoyingly different makefile.unix and bitcoin-qt.pro
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1323 2013-09-14 15:15:58 <warren> grr... scope errors now
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1331 2013-09-14 15:23:09 <warren> sipa: https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/compare/7d1cd46208d4%5E...4a026b83dbe8
1332 2013-09-14 15:23:22 <warren> sipa: I am extremely close ...
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1334 2013-09-14 15:28:41 <warren> jgarzik: your earlier question about L1 or L2: static const int SCRYPT_SCRATCHPAD_SIZE = 131072 + 63;
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1358 2013-09-14 16:22:54 <BenderCoin> Hello is there a site or a script that is available right now to show the number of bitcoin addresses with a non-zero balance? I have seen some calcs, but it would be nice to see someone publishing this or a script where I can run it myself. Thanks.
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1374 2013-09-14 16:34:43 <greBit> Hello, any kind souls out there who can help me with libBitcoin and Genjix's SX tools? How do I actually get a leveldb blockchain?
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1401 2013-09-14 17:04:06 <Vinnie_win> I'm still a little confused about the difference between the interpretation of the bits in the byte sequences used as input to both EncodeBase64 and EncodeBase58. It seems that for base 64 encoding, the bytes are treated as a bit stream where the most significant bits come "first". They are separated into groups of 6 and then converted to the proper alphabet character.
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1403 2013-09-14 17:04:44 <Vinnie_win> But for base 58 encoding, the byte sequence is considered a big endian multi precision unsigned integer. The code first transforms it into little endian and then performs a straightforward radix conversion.
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1407 2013-09-14 17:06:18 <Vinnie_win> This method used for interpreting the byte sequence is different between base64 and base58. The first character output from the base58 encoder is formed from the low order 6 bits of the first data byte. The first character output from the base64 encoder is formed from the high order 6 bits of the first data byte. Is this analysis correct?
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1409 2013-09-14 17:11:14 <jgarzik> Vinnie_win, base58 is quite different from base64, yes
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1451 2013-09-14 18:27:35 <Vinnie_win> so my analysis is right
1452 2013-09-14 18:28:26 <Vinnie_win> Or does BIGNUM treat the most significant bit of the first byte in the mpi representation as the lowest order bit in the little endian mpi?
1453 2013-09-14 18:28:41 <Vinnie_win> (excluding the 4 byte length prefix)
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1485 2013-09-14 19:16:35 <greBit> Anyone know how to create a leveldb blockchain for libbitcoin?
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1604 2013-09-14 22:19:06 <gavinandresen> hydromet: make deploy creates the .dmg file. You should get a Bitcoin-Qt.app from the default autotools build.
1605 2013-09-14 22:21:13 <gavinandresen> hydromet:  RE: Qt5 building:  0.8.0/1/2/3/4/5 do not support Qt5 (I believe).  The 0.9 master branch did, until autotools. And autotools probably does, I just don't know how to tell it to useQt5 instead of Qt4….
1606 2013-09-14 22:23:59 <warren> gavinandresen: I got autotools master to build qt5
1607 2013-09-14 22:24:49 <warren> gavinandresen: I had to hardcode lrelease-qt5 and othertools-qt5, which allowed bitcoin-qt to build, but fails build during tests unless I remove qt4 headers  from the system
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1612 2013-09-14 22:27:51 <Luke-Jr> warren: sounds like we just need to get it to detect header directories smarter - how does your OS install both header-sets concurrently?
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1620 2013-09-14 22:44:26 <warren> Luke-Jr: this will be different on other distros
1621 2013-09-14 22:44:47 <Luke-Jr> warren: perhaps, but might as well make it work on ones we know
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1624 2013-09-14 22:46:09 <warren> Luke-Jr: there seems to be a reluctance for people to review autotools patches, and the obviously good -O2 PR got stuck in minutiae
1625 2013-09-14 22:46:24 <Luke-Jr> warren: it's only been a day or two
1626 2013-09-14 22:46:45 <warren> and 27 comments...
1627 2013-09-14 22:46:48 <Luke-Jr> I like cfields/jgarzik's proposal to just use autotools default for optimisations
1628 2013-09-14 22:47:04 <Luke-Jr> saves a lot of fence painting
1629 2013-09-14 22:47:16 <warren> autotools default is -O2?
1630 2013-09-14 22:47:32 <Luke-Jr> I think -g -O1, but not 100% certain
1631 2013-09-14 22:47:39 <warren> fail
1632 2013-09-14 22:48:09 <Luke-Jr> completely overridable
1633 2013-09-14 22:48:30 <warren> make the default what  users actually use
1634 2013-09-14 22:48:37 <warren> make debug not default
1635 2013-09-14 22:49:24 <Luke-Jr> there is no debug in autotools default
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1637 2013-09-14 22:49:44 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1638 2013-09-14 22:51:05 <warren> just accept this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2996
1639 2013-09-14 22:51:21 <warren> it's an impediment to other people getting things done
1640 2013-09-14 22:51:33 <warren> if people want to clean it up more later, do so later
1641 2013-09-14 22:51:38 <warren> for now just make it work
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1645 2013-09-14 22:55:52 <jcorgan> has there been any empirical studies showing that bitcoin tx and block arrival times really do follow a Poisson distribution?
1646 2013-09-14 22:56:56 <sipa> transaction frequencies are quite correlated
1647 2013-09-14 22:57:00 <jcorgan> well, that really should be "can be modeled as a poisson process"
1648 2013-09-14 22:57:01 <sipa> i doubt those are poisson
1649 2013-09-14 22:57:11 <sipa> block generation probably is
1650 2013-09-14 22:57:26 <sipa> assuming constant hashrate
1651 2013-09-14 22:58:41 <jcorgan> where do you think the tx arrival times become correlated
1652 2013-09-14 22:59:50 <sipa> they are often broadcast in batches
1653 2013-09-14 22:59:56 <jcorgan> ah ok
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1655 2013-09-14 23:04:11 <michagogo> Broadcast in batches? o_O
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1657 2013-09-14 23:04:52 <jcorgan> that would make the mean arrival time less than expected, but i wonder if it changes the distribution shape much given the "dispersion" that would happen while relaying
1658 2013-09-14 23:10:18 <jcorgan> i'm instrumenting bitcoind to collect inv arrival times across connections
1659 2013-09-14 23:10:47 <jcorgan> i could store in ram all the individual data points and give that to the user over rpc, or
1660 2013-09-14 23:11:04 <jcorgan> i could accumulate them into a histogram of some appropriate bin size and present that, or
1661 2013-09-14 23:11:34 <jcorgan> i could make some assumptions about the distribution and do an online parameter estimation and provide the distribution parameters
1662 2013-09-14 23:12:24 <michagogo> ipconfig
1663 2013-09-14 23:12:25 <michagogo> bah
1664 2013-09-14 23:12:42 michagogo has quit (Quit: Goodnight)
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1666 2013-09-14 23:12:59 <jcorgan> laziness dictates the histogram approach
1667 2013-09-14 23:20:19 <hydromet> gavinandresen: with Qt-4 now installed on my Mac (via MacPorts), I was successful building the latest from Master with
1668 2013-09-14 23:20:21 <hydromet> ./autogen.sh && ./configure && make
1669 2013-09-14 23:20:37 <hydromet> after this I then tried make deploy
1670 2013-09-14 23:21:09 <hydromet> but ended up with this error
1671 2013-09-14 23:21:28 <hydromet> Error: Could not import appscript which is required for fancy disk images.
1672 2013-09-14 23:21:33 <hydromet> Please install it e.g. with "sudo easy_install appscript".
1673 2013-09-14 23:21:39 <hydromet> make: *** [Bitcoin-Qt.dmg] Error 1
1674 2013-09-14 23:22:02 <hydromet> gavinandresen: so I was not able to get Bitcoin-Qt.app
1675 2013-09-14 23:23:02 <hydromet> I'm wondering if, on your OS X development system, did you install a MacPort such as py27-appscript ?
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1677 2013-09-14 23:23:44 <hydromet> I'd prefer to use a MacPort for the appscript requirement rather than "sudo easy_install appscript"
1678 2013-09-14 23:25:02 <gavinandresen> hydromet: I didn't use the macports version, but that might just be because the macports version wasn't available before.
1679 2013-09-14 23:25:23 <gavinandresen> I'm using: /Library/Python/2.7/site-packages/appscript-1.0.1-py2.7-macosx-10.7-intel.egg
1680 2013-09-14 23:25:28 <gavinandresen> I don't remember how I installed it.
1681 2013-09-14 23:25:39 <hydromet> ok
1682 2013-09-14 23:25:52 <gavinandresen> … but again, unless you're going to be creating .dmg pacakges, you don't need it.
1683 2013-09-14 23:26:02 <hydromet> my guess is that you probably did "sudo easy_install appscript"
1684 2013-09-14 23:26:43 <hydromet> I don't need .dmg files but I wonder why I'm not able to arrive at a Bitcoin-Qt. app file after make deploy?
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1687 2013-09-14 23:27:58 <hydromet> gavinandresen: when you build with autotools do you do -> ./autogen.sh && ./configure && make deploy  ?
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1689 2013-09-14 23:29:57 <gavinandresen> I will only make deploy if I want a final release build.
1690 2013-09-14 23:30:08 <midnightmagic> do the makefiles know how to do gitian builds yet?
1691 2013-09-14 23:30:45 <gavinandresen> hydromet: during development, I just 'make' .  And that creates Bitcoin-Qt.app.
1692 2013-09-14 23:31:04 <hydromet> gavinandresen: it turns out I am getting Bitcoin-Qt.app to be created in my source directory but in the OS X Finder it has a circle with a slash in the middle of it (and it is greyed out)
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1696 2013-09-14 23:32:10 <gavinandresen> hydromet: what version of OSX?
1697 2013-09-14 23:32:23 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1698 2013-09-14 23:32:25 <hydromet> gavinandresen: 10.8.4
1699 2013-09-14 23:32:34 <gavinandresen> works for me on 10.7
1700 2013-09-14 23:32:46 <hydromet> gavinandresen: do you pass anything to configure?
1701 2013-09-14 23:32:59 <gavinandresen> hydromet: nope
1702 2013-09-14 23:33:40 <hydromet> gavinandresen: hmm ... I wonder if this is going to be problematic for people given that OS X 10.9 is soon to be released?
1703 2013-09-14 23:33:45 <gavinandresen> hydromet: (well, I've got a couple different trees, some are --enable-debug for debugging)
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1707 2013-09-14 23:34:50 <hydromet> gavinandresen: its hard to say when Apple will stop supporting OS X Lion (10.7)
1708 2013-09-14 23:35:03 <gavinandresen> hydromet: okey dokey
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1710 2013-09-14 23:35:55 <gavinandresen> hydromet: I don't have an OSX 10.8 machine here in Australia to test, so either find somebody else who does and work with them to figure out what is wrong, or figure it out yourself.
1711 2013-09-14 23:35:55 <hydromet> gavinandresen: sorry to be a pain, its a bummer I can't get this to work ... I'll dig into it some more and see what I can come up with
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1720 2013-09-14 23:52:54 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell:  re: commentary 29 hours ago about peer 16952 seconds off ---> http://www.timeanddate.com/time/time-zones-interesting.html <-- that's a valid offset for nepal --> (quote) "When it is midnight in Greenwich, it is 5:45 AM in Kathmandu and the rest of Nepal. Nepal is 15 minutes ahead of India."
1721 2013-09-14 23:54:06 <kuzetsa> (assuming an hour difference due to summer savings time going on or coming off somewhere)
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1724 2013-09-14 23:56:14 <kuzetsa> it's naive to pretend there are no timezones set plus or minus 15 or 30 from the more common "off by an hour east to west" timezones
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1727 2013-09-14 23:57:59 <sipa> kuzetsa: where are such assumptions made?