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   4 2013-09-16 00:04:11 <Krellan> bfgminer question: some of my Erupters go into ERR state, with "unable to open /dev/ttyUSB99" or whatever their number is
   5 2013-09-16 00:04:31 <Krellan> I have a script that tells the USB hub to reinitialize, it works, but requires manually running it.
   6 2013-09-16 00:05:21 <Krellan> What's the best way to automate that?
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   8 2013-09-16 00:08:20 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: --cmd-dead maybe?
   9 2013-09-16 00:08:26 <Luke-Jr> not sure if ERR triggers that
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  11 2013-09-16 00:10:35 <Krellan> Luke-Jr: Thanks.  It's not SICK or DEAD.
  12 2013-09-16 00:10:50 <Luke-Jr> --cmd-idle perhaps
  13 2013-09-16 00:10:52 <Krellan> I looked for an ERR callout but didn't find.  What triggers ERR?  I noticed it attempts to retry several times (going by dmesg output).
  14 2013-09-16 00:11:16 <Krellan> Does that command take arguments, such as the device that died?
  15 2013-09-16 00:14:45 jcorgan has joined
  16 2013-09-16 00:14:51 <Luke-Jr> no
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  18 2013-09-16 00:17:04 <Krellan> Ah.
  19 2013-09-16 00:17:26 <Krellan> Maybe an idea for some future work.  I don't want to disrupt all my USB hubs, just the offending Erupter.
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  28 2013-09-16 00:29:14 <cfields> BlueMatt: ping
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  32 2013-09-16 00:35:21 <Krellan> Luke-Jr: Here's my USB device reset script https://gist.github.com/Krellan/6575538
  33 2013-09-16 00:35:46 <Krellan> I'm investigating ways to make bfgminer call that automatically instead of just giving up on a device that is in ERR state.
  34 2013-09-16 00:38:47 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  35 2013-09-16 00:41:51 <BlueMatt> cfields: pong
  36 2013-09-16 00:42:52 <cfields> BlueMatt: what's up with the build failure on your recent PR? Looks like pull-tester is messing with leveldb somehow?
  37 2013-09-16 00:43:19 Coincidental has joined
  38 2013-09-16 00:44:17 <BlueMatt> cfields: looks like autotools fucked something up...or so
  39 2013-09-16 00:44:38 <cfields> BlueMatt: so there are no local patches being used for pulltester?
  40 2013-09-16 00:44:44 <BlueMatt> shouldnt be, no
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  43 2013-09-16 00:46:56 <cfields> any way to verify? I'm really not sure how/why that file would be deleted halfway through a build
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  45 2013-09-16 00:47:58 <BlueMatt> no, it definitely just runs the scripts in qa/pull-tester
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  47 2013-09-16 00:49:18 <cfields> ok, thanks. looking into it
  48 2013-09-16 00:49:33 nx201 has joined
  49 2013-09-16 00:49:39 <BlueMatt> just reset that pull to see if it was arbitrary, it'l test again
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  59 2013-09-16 01:06:18 <warren> gmaxwell: cfields said he is not aware of build slowdowns from autotools, has anyone quantified the slowdown?
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  64 2013-09-16 01:17:37 <cfields> BlueMatt: i think i see it. If so, it's a pretty freakish race. It'd be nice to be able to reproduce. Have you seen that problem with any other builds?
  65 2013-09-16 01:18:14 <BlueMatt> warren: I noticed autotools builds seem to be slower, but that may be unrelated here
  66 2013-09-16 01:18:21 johnsoft has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  67 2013-09-16 01:18:36 <warren> BlueMatt: it's WAYYYY slower here, and gmaxwell commented as such too
  68 2013-09-16 01:18:44 <BlueMatt> cfields: I havent been notified of any such failures, but then again most people ignore the "Please ping BlueMatt" message
  69 2013-09-16 01:18:56 <cfields> heh, ok
  70 2013-09-16 01:18:58 <BlueMatt> warren: well, its significantly slower here, but not nearly waayyyy, so probably unrelated
  71 2013-09-16 01:19:12 <cfields> warren: please explain which part is significantly slower?
  72 2013-09-16 01:19:15 <cfields> it really shouldn't be
  73 2013-09-16 01:19:31 <warren> cfields: I'm not working much on 0.9 yet, ask the devs who are.
  74 2013-09-16 01:20:26 <cfields> warren: you said above that it's way slower for you. was that second-hand info?
  75 2013-09-16 01:20:37 <warren> cfields: no, I witnessed it
  76 2013-09-16 01:20:56 <warren> cfields: I participated in 0.9 only to the extent that it builds on fedora again
  77 2013-09-16 01:21:37 <cfields> warren: are you saying that the process start to finish is slower? or the make itself?
  78 2013-09-16 01:21:45 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  79 2013-09-16 01:22:03 <warren> I'll measure pre-autotools and post-autotools now.
  80 2013-09-16 01:22:05 <cfields> if it's the former, sure, that's the price to be paid. if it's the latter, that's a bug
  81 2013-09-16 01:22:20 <warren> cfields: make itself
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  99 2013-09-16 01:48:17 <jgarzik> "Intel shows 14nm Broadwell Consuming 30% Less Power Than 22nm Haswell"
 100 2013-09-16 01:48:31 <jgarzik> time for another leap in ASIC mining efficiency...
 101 2013-09-16 01:48:53 <jgarzik> (referencing the companies that are terribly proud of their 28nm stuff)
 102 2013-09-16 01:50:46 MobiusL has joined
 103 2013-09-16 01:51:22 <jgarzik> Police catch cyber-thieves.  "Cyber" twist: evil KVM switch involved, providing remote access.   http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/police-arrest-12-santander-cyber-scam-127038
 104 2013-09-16 01:53:06 thrasher` has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 107 2013-09-16 01:57:57 <BlueMatt> why do pcie fpga boards cost so damn much :(
 108 2013-09-16 01:59:12 nx201 has joined
 109 2013-09-16 02:01:34 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: just get a bitcoin USB one and retrofit it :P
 110 2013-09-16 02:02:11 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: the point was to program a pcie device...
 111 2013-09-16 02:05:34 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 114 2013-09-16 02:08:28 <petertodd> BlueMatt
 115 2013-09-16 02:08:36 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Niche market is part of it.
 116 2013-09-16 02:08:39 <BlueMatt> petertodd:
 117 2013-09-16 02:08:55 <BlueMatt> well, yes...
 118 2013-09-16 02:09:29 <petertodd> BlueMatt: The other half is that the PCIE standard is genuinely pretty complex to implement at the PCB level due to impedance-controlled traces and all sorts of other stuff, which makes the fixed cost of the design + production run high.
 119 2013-09-16 02:09:37 Belkaar has joined
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 123 2013-09-16 02:10:38 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ahh, well yea thats kinda what I was thinking...now to see if I can find some lying around cs labs here...
 124 2013-09-16 02:11:02 Applicat_ has joined
 125 2013-09-16 02:11:03 Subo1977_ has joined
 126 2013-09-16 02:11:20 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Oh right, you're in uni, surely you can find something. :P
 127 2013-09-16 02:11:30 <petertodd> BlueMatt: What's the project anyway?
 128 2013-09-16 02:12:03 <BlueMatt> looking at some of the dma stuff wrt vt-d's protection and actually implementing some theoretical attacks that afaik havent been implemented
 129 2013-09-16 02:12:13 <BlueMatt> dma attack stuff, that is
 130 2013-09-16 02:12:16 saivann has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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 132 2013-09-16 02:13:28 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 133 2013-09-16 02:13:53 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Oh, attacking TPM then? Like Intels north-bridge integrated stuff?
 134 2013-09-16 02:14:16 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 135 2013-09-16 02:14:28 <BlueMatt> wasnt looking at attacking tpm stuff (yet), but, yea the vt-d stuff is northbridge-integrated IOMMU, essentially
 136 2013-09-16 02:15:26 * BlueMatt ponders pcie-over-thunderbolt as being an easier target
 137 2013-09-16 02:15:38 <gmaxwell> 10:10 < sipa> jgarzik: i'd really like some explanation about that
 138 2013-09-16 02:15:46 <gmaxwell> are there really any open parameters?
 139 2013-09-16 02:16:21 <gmaxwell> The field size is a prime with the word divisible structure, it's probably the largest 256 bit such number.
 140 2013-09-16 02:16:31 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 141 2013-09-16 02:16:53 <gmaxwell> A is the lowest a that gets you a prime order group, and I think b ends up fixed.
 142 2013-09-16 02:16:53 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Ah, well if you have a need for TPM stuff send me an email; I've done a fair bit of research there.
 143 2013-09-16 02:17:20 OldEnK has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 144 2013-09-16 02:17:40 <BlueMatt> petertodd: pm, this is far ot
 145 2013-09-16 02:17:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: #bitcoin-wizards for that stuff probably.
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 160 2013-09-16 02:42:21 <cfields> warren: any result data?
 161 2013-09-16 02:42:54 <warren> cfields: sorry, busy with RL thing
 162 2013-09-16 02:43:01 <cfields> ok
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 173 2013-09-16 02:51:21 <hydromet> fanquake: how's your system coming along?
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 176 2013-09-16 02:53:41 <fanquake> hydromet, haven't had a chance to do much since last night. However, work got rained off today, so I'll have a chance to look at it. Probably finish getting gitian working though, rather than play with Qt5.
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 187 2013-09-16 03:09:29 <gmaxwell> ...
 188 2013-09-16 03:09:30 <gmaxwell> so
 189 2013-09-16 03:09:32 <gmaxwell> OSX
 190 2013-09-16 03:09:33 pooler__ is now known as pooler_
 191 2013-09-16 03:09:42 <jgarzik> ?
 192 2013-09-16 03:09:46 <gmaxwell> util.cpp:1160
 193 2013-09-16 03:09:47 <SomeoneWeird> is crap
 194 2013-09-16 03:09:47 <TheLordOfTime> ... so, OS X closed source wonderland of non-community supportable software.
 195 2013-09-16 03:09:48 tsche has joined
 196 2013-09-16 03:09:54 <gmaxwell> We're still using fsync() for the block files.
 197 2013-09-16 03:10:12 <gmaxwell> Note that all the reports of osx data corruption are now one that look like the blockfiles missed writes.
 198 2013-09-16 03:10:26 <gmaxwell> (all the reports since 0.8.4)
 199 2013-09-16 03:11:02 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 200 2013-09-16 03:11:29 <gmaxwell> Do we need to be making that use fdatasync  (which on OSX should be fcntl(fd, F_FULLFSYNC, 0)) too?
 201 2013-09-16 03:14:33 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, yes
 202 2013-09-16 03:14:41 <gmaxwell> k. will make pull.  doh.
 203 2013-09-16 03:15:10 ThomasV has joined
 204 2013-09-16 03:15:51 <cfields> gmaxwell: would you like me to abstract that with proper autoconf checks?
 205 2013-09-16 03:15:52 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 206 2013-09-16 03:15:56 <cfields> for .9 ofc
 207 2013-09-16 03:15:58 Coincidental has joined
 208 2013-09-16 03:16:35 elevatioN has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 209 2013-09-16 03:16:43 <gmaxwell> cfields: How can you?  Whats the "test" for "FSYNC claims to work but really does nothing"?
 210 2013-09-16 03:17:54 nx201 has joined
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 212 2013-09-16 03:18:39 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, if (os==osx), of course, when all else fails
 213 2013-09-16 03:19:13 <gmaxwell> sure, thats what I did: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3000
 214 2013-09-16 03:19:26 Zoop_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 215 2013-09-16 03:19:49 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, are you sure OS_MACOSX is not a leveldb-specific symbol?
 216 2013-09-16 03:20:07 <gmaxwell> indeed I was just thinking that.
 217 2013-09-16 03:20:14 <cfields> hmm
 218 2013-09-16 03:20:36 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and now I have no idea what you're talking about.  ;)
 219 2013-09-16 03:21:00 <cfields> F_FULLFSYNC is darwin-only, no?
 220 2013-09-16 03:21:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, and in general, the autotools-ish philosophy would be to detect OSX in configure, and then do similar to what leveldb does: define fdatasync() in OS-specific manner, then end-line code is very simple:  no ifdefs, just fdatasync(fd) for all cases.
 221 2013-09-16 03:21:56 <jgarzik> autoconf and the obvious header file hackery creates illusion of fdatasync()
 222 2013-09-16 03:22:08 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm not superduper keen on the macro being called fdatasync()... since if you manage to not have it defined it'll still work on places that just have one.
 223 2013-09-16 03:22:44 <cfields> jgarzik: i nearly agree. imo checking "if host == osx" is asking for trouble. I'd rather do something like: if F_FULLFSYNC is available, use it
 224 2013-09-16 03:23:06 elevatioN has joined
 225 2013-09-16 03:23:09 <cfields> (with the assumption that the above would always be the preference)
 226 2013-09-16 03:23:16 <gmaxwell> cfields: and what happens when something else with working fdatasync adds that flag?
 227 2013-09-16 03:23:29 <gmaxwell> It's not the preference its a crappy replacement for fdatasync. :(
 228 2013-09-16 03:23:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, then you are not superduper keen on the autoconf philosophy in general ;p   There are many cases where the pattern is applied of "provide foo(), where platform does not, such that end line code may simply assume foo() exists and works as expected"
 229 2013-09-16 03:23:50 <cfields> gmaxwell: i mean if the preference is to use it on c platform where it's found
 230 2013-09-16 03:23:52 <gmaxwell> it's basically fsync() by not sabotaged by an evil OS vendor who wants to cheat at benchmarks. :P
 231 2013-09-16 03:24:07 <cfields> *on a
 232 2013-09-16 03:24:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, for that and many other reasons, PROJECT-config.h should be included in any file where portability matters
 233 2013-09-16 03:24:22 <jgarzik> that's just how autotools is designed to provide portability, in part
 234 2013-09-16 03:24:26 <gmaxwell> cfields: but it is not our preference, our preference is fdatasync().
 235 2013-09-16 03:24:34 Zoop_ has joined
 236 2013-09-16 03:25:14 <cfields> gmaxwell: i don't understand. on osx, it's required to use F_FULLFSYNC in order to get a proper sync, no?
 237 2013-09-16 03:25:47 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I think for most things the problem isn't someone provided a non-working version of a thing, it's just not providing one at all, enh?
 238 2013-09-16 03:26:27 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 239 2013-09-16 03:26:44 <gmaxwell> cfields: yes, my understanding is that to get fdatasync() or stronger on OSX you must use fcntl(F_FULLFSYNC) which does what fsync is specified to do.
 240 2013-09-16 03:27:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, nod. but that is not really relevant to understanding the model.  ("gnulib" was created to supply such missing bits, though, FWIW)
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 244 2013-09-16 03:27:39 <jgarzik> to be clear:  on OSX, F_FULLFSYNC == fsync() + flush to disk
 245 2013-09-16 03:27:45 <cfields> gmaxwell: right. so in terms of autotools, your preference becomes: use F_FULLFSYNC when possible. when not possible, fall back to  fdatasync
 246 2013-09-16 03:27:48 <gmaxwell> cfields: but my point there is that on platforms that have a working fdatasync() we want to use that, even if they have fcntl(F_FULLFSYNC), since a fsync() is performance intrusive.
 247 2013-09-16 03:28:02 <cfields> as that variable will only be found on darwin
 248 2013-09-16 03:28:18 <gmaxwell> cfields: today, but then you're just using it as a poor proxy to detect darwin.
 249 2013-09-16 03:28:33 <gmaxwell> perhaps in the future freebsd adds it for better portability for mac software.
 250 2013-09-16 03:29:09 <gmaxwell> it's kind of an odd case where a call is undetectably bad. :)
 251 2013-09-16 03:29:27 <cfields> gmaxwell: imo it follows that it'd only be defined where it's needed as an alternative to fsync.
 252 2013-09-16 03:30:24 <cfields> yea, i'm surprised to see that gnulib doesn't address it as well
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 254 2013-09-16 03:30:48 <jgarzik> cfields, just check for darwin in configure.ac and be done with it
 255 2013-09-16 03:31:20 <cfields> ok
 256 2013-09-16 03:31:30 <jgarzik> cfields,  there is no point and only danger in trying a very OSX-specific F_FULLFSYNC test that might magically and unexpectedly start working on another OS in the future
 257 2013-09-16 03:31:54 <gmaxwell> there is a netbsd mailing list thread where they debated adding it, though it looks like people were very opposed to it.
 258 2013-09-16 03:32:43 <gmaxwell> libuv does
 259 2013-09-16 03:32:44 <gmaxwell> #elif defined(__APPLE__) && defined(F_FULLFSYNC)
 260 2013-09-16 03:34:43 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I think that's fine for the purposes of your PR
 261 2013-09-16 03:34:58 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Doing It Properly in configure.ac can happen in parallel
 262 2013-09-16 03:35:05 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, your patch will also backport nicely
 263 2013-09-16 03:35:37 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 264 2013-09-16 03:36:03 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, defined(F_FULLFSYNC) test success is predicted on fcntl.h header inclusion, note.
 265 2013-09-16 03:36:11 <jgarzik> predicated
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 267 2013-09-16 03:37:21 <gmaxwell> Yep, so is fnctl() itself. And indeed, backporting is a point... this is certantly something we'll want in an update for OSX.
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 269 2013-09-16 03:39:58 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I swear we already had this conversation 2-3 weeks ago
 270 2013-09-16 03:40:33 <gmaxwell> We did, for leveldb.
 271 2013-09-16 03:40:45 <gmaxwell> And it was fixed in leveldb, and not elsewhere. Because good is dumb.
 272 2013-09-16 03:41:23 <gmaxwell> (And, surprise surprise, after 0.8.4 which included the fix some OSX users started reporting that they no longer had leveldb errors but block-reading errors)
 273 2013-09-16 03:42:31 <jgarzik> rofl
 274 2013-09-16 03:42:47 <jgarzik> (because good is dumb)
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 327 2013-09-16 05:55:16 <jgarzik> ASICminer sure has "fallen" far + fast
 328 2013-09-16 05:56:07 <warren> cfields: ok, I actually measured it, building both bitcoin-qt and bitcoind is faster with autotools than pre-autotools by about 10%.  No ccache and nothing prebuilt.
 329 2013-09-16 05:56:39 <jgarzik> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-secure-bitcoin-wallet-armory-raises-600k-led-by-trace-mayer-2013-09-16
 330 2013-09-16 05:56:47 <jgarzik> congrats to etothepi are in order
 331 2013-09-16 05:58:15 <Diablo-D3> they would be, but hes not here
 332 2013-09-16 05:58:30 <gmaxwell> Indeed! Though I think the author there is confused: "Armory no longer has that problem"
 333 2013-09-16 05:58:46 <cfields> warren: that's about what i'd expect, as it's able to parallelize the qt tools along with the main build. Though, I'd assume autotools loses out with bootstrap/configure taking into consideration
 334 2013-09-16 05:58:54 <gmaxwell> since presumably its investors expect a return on that $600k.
 335 2013-09-16 05:59:34 <gmaxwell> cfields: hm? its not able to parallelize the qt stuff with the main build, because of recursive automake, no?
 336 2013-09-16 05:59:48 <SomeoneWeird> depends if was actually investors
 337 2013-09-16 05:59:56 <SomeoneWeird> or if it was just crowdfunded
 338 2013-09-16 06:00:07 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, that should work
 339 2013-09-16 06:00:47 <cfields> gmaxwell: it does as much as it can. locale complication and image c-string-ification at the same time, for example
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 342 2013-09-16 06:03:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I wonder if that paragraph was out of context - it seems to be referring to the problem of mmapping everything
 343 2013-09-16 06:05:11 rdponticelli has joined
 344 2013-09-16 06:07:10 <cfields> BlueMatt: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3001 should fix the failure you saw on your PR
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 346 2013-09-16 06:08:57 <gmaxwell> cfields: have an O2 pull for me to merge?
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 348 2013-09-16 06:09:18 <BlueMatt> cfields: nice, thanks
 349 2013-09-16 06:10:08 <cfields> gmaxwell: hehe, i figured i'd stay out of that one til you guys agreed on something
 350 2013-09-16 06:11:14 <cfields> gmaxwell: if you've agreed on just sticking -O2 back, i think the existing PR suffices?
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 352 2013-09-16 06:14:36 <gmaxwell> I thought we were going to make the default non-debug and -O2 -g  and debug -O0 -g (for use when the debugger hates you w/ O2)  but thats just what I thought and I wasn't going and changing it because heck if I know.
 353 2013-09-16 06:15:22 <jgarzik> autoconf default is -O2 -g
 354 2013-09-16 06:15:59 <jgarzik> and People Who Care change it (all distros override defaults)
 355 2013-09-16 06:16:00 normanrichards has quit ()
 356 2013-09-16 06:16:44 <jgarzik> modify with specific flags everyone decides must be present in all builds (hardening?  -Wall?)
 357 2013-09-16 06:17:09 <jgarzik> if you need a specific debug setting, that's easy enough to change from default
 358 2013-09-16 06:17:41 * Luke-Jr stopped caring, but thinks standard/default behaviour is good
 359 2013-09-16 06:19:37 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well its only a default if you use the macro that makes it one. the AM_CFLAGS_ one IIRc.
 360 2013-09-16 06:19:40 <cfields> I'm in the same boat. I'll make whatever change is desired. jgarzik's suggestion sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
 361 2013-09-16 06:20:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no, pretty sure just detecting a C++ compiler sets it up
 362 2013-09-16 06:20:49 <gmaxwell> cfields: it's fine with me. I think some people (e.g. gavin) had expressed an explicit debug preference, but I'm not sure if they would be happy with "You spell make debug   CFLAGS=-O0 -g make " otherwise I don't care.
 363 2013-09-16 06:20:56 <warren> as long as the autoconf default actually results in -O2 with plain ./configure, please do it
 364 2013-09-16 06:20:59 <cfields> gmaxwell: AC_PROG_CC AC_PROG_CXX sets them, and those are pretty much mandatory
 365 2013-09-16 06:21:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, the GNU default is -O2 -g in absence of other direction
 366 2013-09-16 06:21:13 <gmaxwell> and yea, I know its a GNU default.
 367 2013-09-16 06:22:23 Polyatomic has joined
 368 2013-09-16 06:22:45 <gmaxwell> (but, you know, we're init automake "foreign", and thus aren't doing a bunch of other gnu standard stuff)
 369 2013-09-16 06:23:14 <cfields> gmaxwell: personally i'm in favor of removing debug/release stuff, i was hoping to just stick to defaults and have that debate. So this is very much the outcome I was hoping for, just not sure everyone (mainly gavin i think) is onboard
 370 2013-09-16 06:23:46 * warren doesnt care, as long as -O2 -g happens when I "./configure"
 371 2013-09-16 06:24:23 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 372 2013-09-16 06:24:24 <jgarzik> at a minimum
 373 2013-09-16 06:24:27 <cfields> imo the closer the average dev's build is to the release build, the better
 374 2013-09-16 06:24:32 <gmaxwell> the only possible additional option would be a shortcut to set the debug cflags. I think thats largely a seperable issue.
 375 2013-09-16 06:25:06 <gmaxwell> cfields: I don't know where you got this idea that our behavior before was defaulting to a "debug build" ... we got an -O2 -g build by default before with the unix makefile.
 376 2013-09-16 06:25:11 <jgarzik> optimal debug flags also tend to vary by platform
 377 2013-09-16 06:25:16 <gmaxwell> Maybe the OSX makefile was doing something different.
 378 2013-09-16 06:25:28 <gmaxwell> e.g. no-omit-frame-pointer
 379 2013-09-16 06:25:37 <jgarzik> +1 -- lack of -O2 by default is a bug, agreed
 380 2013-09-16 06:25:50 <jgarzik> does not match prior behavior
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 382 2013-09-16 06:26:42 <gmaxwell> I am totally indifferent to make debug, I can CFLAGS myself just fine when I need lower optimization.  But at the same time I think an extra make debug is harmless too, so if someone wants it "who cares, sure!"
 383 2013-09-16 06:27:20 <jgarzik> just call it "make gavindebug" and be clear
 384 2013-09-16 06:27:24 <cfields> ok, i think we're all saying nearly the same thing by now
 385 2013-09-16 06:27:34 <warren> we were 2 days ago
 386 2013-09-16 06:27:42 <Luke-Jr> we will be in 2 days
 387 2013-09-16 06:27:49 <warren> the debate went to the particular shade of blue
 388 2013-09-16 06:28:38 <jgarzik> But on the THIRD DAY, things will change.
 389 2013-09-16 06:29:05 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: we'll use -O9 ?
 390 2013-09-16 06:29:30 <cfields> ok, so.. gulp...
 391 2013-09-16 06:29:33 <gmaxwell> -O20
 392 2013-09-16 06:29:54 <jgarzik> That one burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp.  But the fourth one stayed up.  And that's what we've got lads:  the strongest build platform in these isles.
 393 2013-09-16 06:29:54 <cfields> nuke debug/release, everyone gets -O2 -g, tack on the mandatory hardening and others
 394 2013-09-16 06:29:57 <warren> I demand Oxford blue.
 395 2013-09-16 06:30:03 <cfields> user overrides with CXXFLAGS if desired.
 396 2013-09-16 06:30:08 <cfields> that about cover it?
 397 2013-09-16 06:30:11 <gmaxwell> Well, once gitian is updated ... we really should move to using LTO there.  It results in a substantially smaller binary even if its not yet measurably faster.
 398 2013-09-16 06:30:16 <gmaxwell> but thats a problem for another day.
 399 2013-09-16 06:30:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: -fsort-opcodes
 400 2013-09-16 06:30:32 <warren> gmaxwell: what compiler version supports that?
 401 2013-09-16 06:30:56 <gmaxwell> warren: it's useful in 4.6+ IIRC.
 402 2013-09-16 06:31:02 <cfields> gmaxwell: gcc 4.7 was the first gcc reliable enough, imo. clang seems to do it just fine in 4.1 iirc.
 403 2013-09-16 06:31:04 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, tested that lately?  Last time I tested it (~6 mo), Fedora stopped working after a certain binutils/elfutils/gcc/mumble/mumble update.  I had to remove -flto from all my Fedora makefile patches.
 404 2013-09-16 06:31:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think still experimental in 4.6
 405 2013-09-16 06:31:18 <cfields> er, that was at warren
 406 2013-09-16 06:31:22 * jgarzik is a big fan of LTO
 407 2013-09-16 06:31:40 <gmaxwell> Okay yea, I agree it's more stable in 4.7+ but I don't test it often.
 408 2013-09-16 06:31:42 <cfields> jgarzik: same. mainly just for the warm feeling of dropping unused crap, though
 409 2013-09-16 06:31:55 <jgarzik> -O[json_spirit]
 410 2013-09-16 06:32:15 <gmaxwell> cfields: yea I think thats right for now.
 411 2013-09-16 06:32:24 <jgarzik> cfields, ack
 412 2013-09-16 06:32:28 <cfields> ok, so before we start shopping for more paint and sheds... everyone agree on the above?
 413 2013-09-16 06:32:30 <cfields> ok great
 414 2013-09-16 06:32:32 <Luke-Jr> my only question is
 415 2013-09-16 06:32:38 <Luke-Jr> hardening is enabled by default?
 416 2013-09-16 06:32:40 <cfields> Luke-Jr: time's up :)
 417 2013-09-16 06:32:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yes.
 418 2013-09-16 06:32:50 <Luke-Jr> is that safe on all compilers?
 419 2013-09-16 06:32:56 <cfields> Luke-Jr: all flags are tested
 420 2013-09-16 06:32:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it should be detected.
 421 2013-09-16 06:33:02 <Luke-Jr> k
 422 2013-09-16 06:33:08 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, are condoms 100% safe in all circumstances?
 423 2013-09-16 06:33:19 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: you don't want to go there.
 424 2013-09-16 06:33:39 <gmaxwell> Now, to be fair there are some platforms where compile tests work but the executables will fail to run. :( I didn't check to see what tests are done of the hardening knobs, and I don't think we work on any of those platforms.  (sparc I think is an example)
 425 2013-09-16 06:33:41 <cfields> some will lead to lots of compiler bitching. For ex, clang will accept many of gcc's flags, then warn on every compile line
 426 2013-09-16 06:33:46 <cfields> but that's not our problem (tm) imo.
 427 2013-09-16 06:33:56 <jgarzik> cfields, disagree
 428 2013-09-16 06:34:02 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I thought Windows was one of those platforms..
 429 2013-09-16 06:34:05 <jgarzik> cfields, we can certainly autoconf specific compiler flags
 430 2013-09-16 06:34:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no, they work on windows.
 431 2013-09-16 06:34:21 <gmaxwell> diapolo did a whole bunch of testing on that too.
 432 2013-09-16 06:34:23 <cfields> jgarzik: sure, and we already do. mingw's required lots of special attention
 433 2013-09-16 06:34:30 <cfields> jgarzik: i just meant as a general rule
 434 2013-09-16 06:34:46 <jgarzik> as a general rule we generally don't have rules
 435 2013-09-16 06:34:48 <cfields> gmaxwell: i read diapolo's notes over and over when setting up mingw
 436 2013-09-16 06:35:12 <cfields> so i think his findings have been properly implemented
 437 2013-09-16 06:35:17 <gmaxwell> In any case, if some hardening thing is problematic we can add a disable later when it crops up with an actual user that we can test the sufficiency of our solution against.
 438 2013-09-16 06:35:17 <cfields> best i could, anyway
 439 2013-09-16 06:35:23 <warren> can we also settle the json_spirit annoyance thing now?
 440 2013-09-16 06:35:32 <warren> there's 5 different patches that comment it out
 441 2013-09-16 06:35:34 <gmaxwell> warren: did you take the patch upstream?
 442 2013-09-16 06:35:47 <warren> the newer upstream version looks different there
 443 2013-09-16 06:35:56 <cfields> gmaxwell: late here. ok to PR the change tomorrow?
 444 2013-09-16 06:35:59 <gmaxwell> should we just update instead?
 445 2013-09-16 06:36:05 <gmaxwell> cfields: I don't care, so long as we make progress.
 446 2013-09-16 06:36:13 <warren> I don't care, as long as it's blue.
 447 2013-09-16 06:36:21 <warren> and it works
 448 2013-09-16 06:36:21 <gmaxwell> warren: pale blue!
 449 2013-09-16 06:36:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: with red mixed in!
 450 2013-09-16 06:36:35 <cfields> gmaxwell: ok. i'll do that and do a split-debug PR behind it. But i sure as hell won't mix em :)
 451 2013-09-16 06:36:37 <gmaxwell> no no! red is right out!
 452 2013-09-16 06:36:56 <warren> cfields: colorize the make output blue
 453 2013-09-16 06:37:02 <warren> cfields: with -O2
 454 2013-09-16 06:37:12 <warren> cfields: and ignore me
 455 2013-09-16 06:37:30 <cfields> warren: heh, done long ago
 456 2013-09-16 06:37:37 <gmaxwell> we need to spend less time on BS like this and more on more important changes. Does anyone have any thoughts on that patch I posted to get rid of polling those external IP services?
 457 2013-09-16 06:37:55 <warren> why didn't you PR it?
 458 2013-09-16 06:38:27 <cfields> off to bed, nnite
 459 2013-09-16 06:38:36 <gmaxwell> warren: because I haven't tested it substantivelly and so it's not ready to be pulled. But I'm not going to spend 4 hours building a test network to test it if people hate the general approach even assuming the code is right.
 460 2013-09-16 06:38:59 Coincide_ has joined
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 464 2013-09-16 06:43:24 <gmaxwell> There is currently an exchange being run by Real Solid ?!
 465 2013-09-16 06:43:58 Plinker_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 466 2013-09-16 06:44:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: apparently
 467 2013-09-16 06:44:46 <Luke-Jr> he asked me if I had an account on it the other day, for some reason
 468 2013-09-16 06:45:08 <SomeoneWeird> wat
 469 2013-09-16 06:45:12 <SomeoneWeird> which one?
 470 2013-09-16 06:45:18 <SomeoneWeird> nuke it from space
 471 2013-09-16 06:45:18 <gavinandresen> RE: debug builds:  as long as it is DOCUMENTED how to get a maximum-possible-ability-to-debug, I don't care.
 472 2013-09-16 06:45:18 <gmaxwell> there is some announcement related to hacked accounts there.
 473 2013-09-16 06:45:34 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: hurrah, the baby has been sliced!
 474 2013-09-16 06:45:54 <gavinandresen> Documented for somebody with a little brain like mine that can't figure out whether it is CXXFLAGS or CFLAGS and whether you specify them at configure or make time....
 475 2013-09-16 06:46:08 <Luke-Jr> CXXFLAGS, configure time
 476 2013-09-16 06:46:24 <gavinandresen> Don't tell me now, put it in a README.
 477 2013-09-16 06:46:36 <gavinandresen> (my little brain forgets crap like that because it is full)
 478 2013-09-16 06:47:37 <Luke-Jr> I think cfields is putting together the PR (or updating his existing one) and went to bed already :<
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 491 2013-09-16 06:59:21 <petertodd> Yeah, please put this stuff in a HACKING file; this seems to be the standard way of communicating what you need to do to work on a project.
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 505 2013-09-16 07:35:05 <Diablo-D3> hey
 506 2013-09-16 07:35:09 <Diablo-D3> we finally broke 1000 th?
 507 2013-09-16 07:35:16 <gmaxwell> maybe
 508 2013-09-16 07:36:01 <gmaxwell> sipa's 3day window estimate is over 1th now.
 509 2013-09-16 07:36:04 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: We might have broken 10,000TH, for some probability of maybe.
 510 2013-09-16 07:36:41 variousnefarious has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 511 2013-09-16 07:36:51 <sipa> 1PH/s you mean
 512 2013-09-16 07:36:58 epscy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 513 2013-09-16 07:37:00 <SomeoneWeird> petertodd, lol
 514 2013-09-16 07:37:00 Plinker_ has joined
 515 2013-09-16 07:37:03 <Diablo-D3> I hope he means 1ph
 516 2013-09-16 07:37:23 nkuttler has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 517 2013-09-16 07:37:24 <SomeoneWeird> no he's just saying that the probability of maybe is very low :P
 518 2013-09-16 07:37:29 owowo has joined
 519 2013-09-16 07:37:35 <Diablo-D3> lol
 520 2013-09-16 07:37:37 variousnefarious has joined
 521 2013-09-16 07:37:46 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, I think its awesome
 522 2013-09-16 07:37:48 <sipa> 1 picohour?
 523 2013-09-16 07:38:14 darknyan has joined
 524 2013-09-16 07:38:17 <Diablo-D3> when do we become the largest distributed project in pentium 4 equivalent hours?
 525 2013-09-16 07:38:24 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: never
 526 2013-09-16 07:38:25 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
 527 2013-09-16 07:38:37 <gmaxwell> er yea, 1PH.
 528 2013-09-16 07:38:39 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: well whos left?
 529 2013-09-16 07:38:46 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: define "equivalent"
 530 2013-09-16 07:38:48 Belxjander has joined
 531 2013-09-16 07:38:55 nkuttler has joined
 532 2013-09-16 07:39:00 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: sha256 hmac is a rather direct conversion
 533 2013-09-16 07:39:05 epscy has joined
 534 2013-09-16 07:39:06 <gmaxwell> the definition that allows you to make that comparison.
 535 2013-09-16 07:39:17 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: so pick a specific conversion
 536 2013-09-16 07:39:27 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: I just did, I think
 537 2013-09-16 07:39:33 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: die space, power, money, hope, dreams?
 538 2013-09-16 07:39:53 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: its a MIPS/FLOPS equivalent calculation
 539 2013-09-16 07:40:14 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: that figure is a pile of BS
 540 2013-09-16 07:40:22 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: /me shrugs
 541 2013-09-16 07:40:37 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 542 2013-09-16 07:40:38 <Diablo-D3> theres no other way to calculate it once you start throwing gpus, fpgas, and asics at it
 543 2013-09-16 07:40:49 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: IMO it's $/second spent that's the interesting one
 544 2013-09-16 07:40:59 <Diablo-D3> depends how you define interesting
 545 2013-09-16 07:41:04 <Diablo-D3> raw mathematical power is interesting to me
 546 2013-09-16 07:41:18 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: I can convert $/second to anything else in a free market
 547 2013-09-16 07:41:19 <Diablo-D3> and distributed projects for some reason use a 3ghz p4 as their computational unit of power
 548 2013-09-16 07:41:54 <Diablo-D3> so I think we've beaten the largest @home project which was considered the largest distributed project
 549 2013-09-16 07:42:24 * Diablo-D3 just forgets which @home project is biggest, I think it was folding and not seti
 550 2013-09-16 07:43:22 sacredchao has joined
 551 2013-09-16 07:43:44 <petertodd> So, 25BTC/10minutes * $125USD/BTC = $5.21/second
 552 2013-09-16 07:44:48 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 553 2013-09-16 07:44:53 <Diablo-D3> which is frankly not enough
 554 2013-09-16 07:45:00 <Diablo-D3> why arent we past $1000USD/BTC yet
 555 2013-09-16 07:45:08 <petertodd> Or $18750/hour or ~15k quad extra large amazon cluster compute instances
 556 2013-09-16 07:45:24 <Diablo-D3> lol
 557 2013-09-16 07:45:24 <petertodd> meh
 558 2013-09-16 07:45:46 <Diablo-D3> which gets back to a form of p4 equivalence the hard and rented way
 559 2013-09-16 07:45:52 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: oh and
 560 2013-09-16 07:45:54 <petertodd> My point exactly
 561 2013-09-16 07:46:01 <Diablo-D3> I suspect that might be more computation then they have
 562 2013-09-16 07:46:27 <petertodd> Cut a check and I'll bet you it won't be in 3 months. :P
 563 2013-09-16 07:46:32 <Diablo-D3> and jeff bezos would suck your dick personally
 564 2013-09-16 07:47:10 <petertodd> I'd ask if he has a daughter myself, but that's just personal preference.
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 566 2013-09-16 07:48:30 <Diablo-D3> he has 4 kids, I suspect one of them is female
 567 2013-09-16 07:49:14 <petertodd> Huh, turns out he adopted a daughter from China, good for him!
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 569 2013-09-16 07:49:23 <Diablo-D3> yeah, hes ... weird
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 571 2013-09-16 07:49:37 <SomeoneWeird> who?
 572 2013-09-16 07:49:56 <Diablo-D3> SomeoneWeird: jeff bezos
 573 2013-09-16 07:50:01 <SomeoneWeird> who? >.>
 574 2013-09-16 07:50:07 <Diablo-D3> ceo of amazon
 575 2013-09-16 07:50:12 <Diablo-D3> one of the richest people alive
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 577 2013-09-16 07:50:47 <smakatak> i created a symbolic link on my windows machine in the roaming folder so that i can store the block chain on a bigger hard drive, but when i try to run bitcoin-qt i get a "microsoft visual c++ runtime library" message
 578 2013-09-16 07:50:52 <smakatak> any ideas?
 579 2013-09-16 07:50:53 <Diablo-D3> his net worth is about half that of bill gates or warren buffet
 580 2013-09-16 07:51:31 <Diablo-D3> smakatak: you can just start bitcoin with -datadir and specify a different path
 581 2013-09-16 07:51:43 <smakatak> ya but thats a temporary solution no?
 582 2013-09-16 07:52:04 <Diablo-D3> no, thats the recommended solution to have it store its data somewhere else
 583 2013-09-16 07:55:55 <Polyatomic> Is Armory Superior to bitcoin QT ?
 584 2013-09-16 07:56:18 <Diablo-D3> Polyatomic: apples and oranges
 585 2013-09-16 07:56:36 <Polyatomic> true hey
 586 2013-09-16 07:56:38 <petertodd> Polyatomic: currently you need a copy of bitcoin-qt to use armory
 587 2013-09-16 07:56:39 <Polyatomic> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-secure-bitcoin-wallet-armory-raises-600k-led-by-trace-mayer-2013-09-16
 588 2013-09-16 07:57:10 <smakatak> Diablo-D3: thanks
 589 2013-09-16 07:58:48 <smakatak> does bitcoin save some settings anywhere else? because I unchecked the network settings (map port using upnp and connect through socks) and those settings are preserved even if uninstall/re-install bitcoin-qt
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 592 2013-09-16 07:59:18 <Diablo-D3> smakatak: yes, in a file in the data dir
 593 2013-09-16 07:59:29 <smakatak> right other than that folder
 594 2013-09-16 07:59:43 <Diablo-D3> not that Im aware of
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 696 2013-09-16 12:29:52 <nkuttler> i guess annotating completed transactions is not possible with the API?
 697 2013-09-16 12:31:47 <TD> sendrawtransaction doesn't do what you want?
 698 2013-09-16 12:32:18 <nkuttler> TD: no idea, isn't that just for new transactions?
 699 2013-09-16 12:32:27 <nkuttler> raw transactions are on my list for today
 700 2013-09-16 12:32:35 <TD> well, what is the difference you perceive between completed and new?
 701 2013-09-16 12:32:49 <nkuttler> that's a very good question i guess :)
 702 2013-09-16 12:33:10 <nkuttler> i just meant saved locally
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 704 2013-09-16 12:33:43 <TD> sendrawtransaction takes raw transaction bytes and broadcasts them
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 706 2013-09-16 12:34:37 <nkuttler> i was just wondering if i can add comments to transactions once they have been broadcasted, i guess
 707 2013-09-16 12:34:49 <TD> i see
 708 2013-09-16 12:35:04 <TD> you can associated labels with addresses
 709 2013-09-16 12:35:10 <TD> but you cannot annotate transactions directly with just bitcoind
 710 2013-09-16 12:35:16 <nkuttler> ok
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 712 2013-09-16 12:35:48 <sipa> bitcoin-qt may let you edit comments on trasactions afterards
 713 2013-09-16 12:35:49 <sipa> unsure
 714 2013-09-16 12:36:03 <nkuttler> hm, i'll have a look
 715 2013-09-16 12:36:11 <TD> there's a way to add comments to transactions?
 716 2013-09-16 12:36:19 <nkuttler> but i only want to use the api. anyway, not really important
 717 2013-09-16 12:37:01 <nkuttler> TD: sendtoaddress <bitcoinaddress> <amount> [comment] [comment-to] ?
 718 2013-09-16 12:37:41 <michagogo> I think comment-to is "label the to address"
 719 2013-09-16 12:37:44 <michagogo> (just a guess)
 720 2013-09-16 12:37:50 <nkuttler> yes
 721 2013-09-16 12:38:13 <nkuttler> well, the comments aren't broadcasted, sure
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 757 2013-09-16 13:31:23 <thermoman> who administers the bitcoin.org website?
 758 2013-09-16 13:32:14 <thermoman> the german translation on http://bitcoin.org/de/waehlen-sie-ihre-wallet when hovering over the 1st web wallet has a typo. "Diese Wallet setzt standartmäßig ..." should read "Diese Wallet setzt standar_d_mäßig ..."
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 770 2013-09-16 13:39:10 <_dr> seid wann schreibt man standart mit d? :D
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 779 2013-09-16 13:48:16 <TD> thermoman: it's on github. you can file an issue
 780 2013-09-16 13:48:38 <nkuttler> _dr: also ich steh gerne aufrecht. andere standarten toleriere ich aber. standarten finde ich aber nicht so gut, aber das wurzelt halt im nationalismus
 781 2013-09-16 13:54:49 <warren> cfields: hmm would it be possible to use ccache in gitian (with some kind of intra-VM inputs transfer of the ccache data)?   Or would faketime screw it up too much?
 782 2013-09-16 13:55:46 <michagogo> thermoman: You can fork the repo, fix it, and submit a github pull request
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 784 2013-09-16 13:56:39 <sipa> for small changes, i think you can do all that within github
 785 2013-09-16 13:56:47 <sipa> just 'edit file'
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 787 2013-09-16 13:57:26 <TD> thermoman: otherwise, contact saivann
 788 2013-09-16 13:58:37 <michagogo> sipa: Oh, really?
 789 2013-09-16 13:58:53 <michagogo> Actually, if it's just one letter, I could just do it myself
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 800 2013-09-16 14:10:06 <michagogo> Done: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/242
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 813 2013-09-16 14:29:26 <cfields> warren: yes, i actually hacked gitian to do just that to speed up builds here
 814 2013-09-16 14:30:26 <cfields> warren: rather, i started to, but bailed on the idea when it was taking longer to setup than the builds would've taken
 815 2013-09-16 14:30:30 <cfields> but the idea is fine, afaik
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 825 2013-09-16 14:36:36 <thermoman> michagogo: thanks. just found one more thing. the sentence is not correct, the author changed it and now there is a word to much in it
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 827 2013-09-16 14:37:38 <thermoman> "und erfordert ein gewisses Maß an Vertrauen gegenüber Dritten vorraus." should read a) "und erfordert ein gewisses Maß an Vertrauen gegenüber Dritten." or b) "und __setzt__ ein gewisses Maß an Vertrauen gegenüber Dritten vorraus."
 828 2013-09-16 14:37:46 <thermoman> michagogo: a) and b) has the same meaning
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 830 2013-09-16 14:38:39 <thermoman> michagogo: a) is good - just remove " vorraus" at the end of the sentence
 831 2013-09-16 14:38:41 <thermoman> thanks
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 833 2013-09-16 14:39:20 <thermoman> _dr: ? :)
 834 2013-09-16 14:39:40 <michagogo> thermoman: How would you describe the change?
 835 2013-09-16 14:39:57 <thermoman> michagogo: fixed wrong grammer
 836 2013-09-16 14:40:38 <michagogo>     wallettrustinfotxt: "Diese Wallet setzt standardmäßig auf einen zentralisierten Dienst und erfordert ein gewisses Maß an Vertrauen gegenüber Dritten. Allerdings haben diese keine Kontrolle über ihre Wallet. Es ist immer angebracht falls möglich ein starkes Passwort und ein Backup zu verwenden."
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 838 2013-09-16 14:40:59 <thermoman> michagogo: it's ok
 839 2013-09-16 14:43:17 <michagogo> thermoman: done
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 842 2013-09-16 14:43:35 <thermoman> michagogo: superb
 843 2013-09-16 14:43:47 <michagogo> (you could really do this yourself easily)
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 852 2013-09-16 14:49:08 <thermoman> michagogo: i would have to register on github :)
 853 2013-09-16 14:49:26 <michagogo> thermoman: So?
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 869 2013-09-16 15:11:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, (looking at BTC Guild's 45% mining share)   Is there something that could be considered a "p2pool manual" in English, covering all current ASIC miner hardware setup + software miner setup?
 870 2013-09-16 15:11:29 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I just don't have time to write such, if not…  was thinking about a bounty for that, then another to get it translated
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 873 2013-09-16 15:14:18 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I also wonder if there is any value in having some public p2pool nodes run by, e.g. exmulti, that people could connect to without running bitcoind.  trust-- I know, but that makes things a /bit/ more decentralized at least
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 907 2013-09-16 15:26:25 <michagogo> jgarzik: What ASIC miner hardware setup needs to be done differently compared to btc guild?
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 909 2013-09-16 15:27:31 <jgarzik> michagogo, very little, probably
 910 2013-09-16 15:27:34 <michagogo> And, for that matter, what software miner setup?
 911 2013-09-16 15:27:40 <jgarzik> michagogo, quite a bit more
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 913 2013-09-16 15:28:00 <michagogo> I mean, I know you need to set up p2pool (and bitcoind if you don't have it running)
 914 2013-09-16 15:28:20 <jgarzik> michagogo, remember, people need Push Here Dummy instructions and ease of use.  That includes instructions for p2pool and bitcoind, which people don't have to bother with to mine on BTC Guild.
 915 2013-09-16 15:28:31 <michagogo> But what changes need to be made to the miner software itself?
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 917 2013-09-16 15:28:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: there are lots of public p2pool nodes, though anyone's guess which ones are scams and are just going to steal your work. The bigger problem is that high miner<>p2pool latency and overloaded p2pool servers will give you high stale rates. So it may be a bad first expirence for a new p2pool user.
 918 2013-09-16 15:28:47 <jgarzik> michagogo, no software changes, this is documentation
 919 2013-09-16 15:28:54 <michagogo> jgarzik: I know
 920 2013-09-16 15:29:04 <michagogo> I mean, say you're mining on BTC Guild.
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 922 2013-09-16 15:29:15 <gmaxwell> And yea, there aren't good docs now.
 923 2013-09-16 15:29:31 <jgarzik> michagogo, point it at a new URL (presuming p2pool and bitcoind are running)
 924 2013-09-16 15:29:39 <michagogo> Assuming you have p2pool set up, what do you need to do to switch from mining on btc guild to mining on p2pool?
 925 2013-09-16 15:29:43 <michagogo> That's what I thought.
 926 2013-09-16 15:29:45 <gmaxwell> (and if you go searching for docs you're likely to find a lot of outdated stuf, e.g. saying that avalon or whatever doesn't work well on p2pool)
 927 2013-09-16 15:29:48 <jgarzik> p2pool supports stratum.
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 929 2013-09-16 15:30:19 <michagogo> [18:09:51] <jgarzik> gmaxwell, (looking at BTC Guild's 45% mining share)   Is there something that could be considered a "p2pool manual" in English, covering all current ASIC miner hardware setup + software miner setup?
 930 2013-09-16 15:30:19 <michagogo> Does one exist for mining on BTC Guild (or some other pool)?
 931 2013-09-16 15:30:20 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, IMO that's a key issue…  docs need to be valid for current ASIC miner hardware.
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 933 2013-09-16 15:31:08 <jgarzik> michagogo, not AFAIK
 934 2013-09-16 15:31:14 <michagogo> Ah.
 935 2013-09-16 15:31:40 <gmaxwell> michagogo: to some extent: https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=support&section=blockerupter
 936 2013-09-16 15:31:55 <michagogo> If something existed for mining in general, I could probably download p2pool, play with it, and take a shot at adding p2pool setup
 937 2013-09-16 15:32:03 <jgarzik> I gather from anecdotal observation that people just tend to go with whatever their friend (or first responder in a newbie forum thread) tells them to run, and mine at.
 938 2013-09-16 15:32:26 <jgarzik> "oh, i sign up to this website, and then type this url into my miner, and I get paid. ok."
 939 2013-09-16 15:32:44 <jgarzik> p2pool is many yards from being that easy
 940 2013-09-16 15:32:52 <jgarzik> and that pushes people to centralized mining
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 942 2013-09-16 15:32:56 <nkuttler> i just noticed that getaccountaddress foo creates a new address for that account when called the first time. is that a bug?
 943 2013-09-16 15:33:11 <michagogo> nkuttler: What would you expect it to do?
 944 2013-09-16 15:33:23 <nkuttler> michagogo: return an existing address for the account
 945 2013-09-16 15:33:35 <michagogo> What do you mean, "the first time"?
 946 2013-09-16 15:33:49 <michagogo> Oh, I think I know
 947 2013-09-16 15:33:54 <kjj> michagogo: try p2pcoin.  selfcontained p2pool node with bfgminer
 948 2013-09-16 15:33:58 <jgarzik> OK, on the software side:  ideally, for OSX and Windows, somebody needs to make an all-in-one kit that gives you bfgminer, p2pool, bitcoind.
 949 2013-09-16 15:33:58 <gmaxwell> nkuttler: you're not supposted to reuse addresses. Generally the api is setup so that you don't.
 950 2013-09-16 15:34:11 <jgarzik> kjj, neat
 951 2013-09-16 15:34:23 <michagogo> nkuttler: I suspect that if you send coins to that address, calling getaccountaddress again will give you a new address
 952 2013-09-16 15:34:35 <gmaxwell> michagogo: yes thats what it does, IIRC.
 953 2013-09-16 15:34:35 <nkuttler> let me just write up what i'm doing..
 954 2013-09-16 15:34:43 <michagogo> So it's not "give me the address for this account", it's "give me an unused address for this account"
 955 2013-09-16 15:34:52 <jgarzik> If there was an app that Just Worked, on OSX or Windows, when you plugged in a USB miner, that would be awesome.
 956 2013-09-16 15:35:03 <jgarzik> (brings up p2pool and bitcoind)
 957 2013-09-16 15:35:11 <gmaxwell> michagogo: we should probably just remove that. too much race risk.
 958 2013-09-16 15:35:27 <gmaxwell> (and you may not realize that there is any)
 959 2013-09-16 15:35:37 <michagogo> Anyway, continuing from "...p2pool setup": However, I don't know enough about the mining hardware (drivers, etc.) and software (what exactly is out there, and how to configure) to write a mining guide
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 963 2013-09-16 15:36:46 <nkuttler> getnewaddress foo; getaddressesbyaccount foo returns one; getaccountaddress foo returns a new one
 964 2013-09-16 15:36:56 <nkuttler> i would have expected getaccountaddress foo to return the first address
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 966 2013-09-16 15:37:17 <nkuttler> and no address was used by this afaict
 967 2013-09-16 15:37:30 <jgarzik> michagogo, mostly ASIC miners fit into broad categories:  (1) self-contained nodes like Avalon with their own internal OS, (2) USB miners for which you provide a computer with USB ports, running bfgminer, and (3) these odd duck ASICminer blades, that call out to 'getwork'
 968 2013-09-16 15:37:34 <jgarzik> AFAIK
 969 2013-09-16 15:37:45 <michagogo> (3) these odd duck ASICminer blades, that call out to 'getwork'?
 970 2013-09-16 15:37:46 <michagogo> o_O
 971 2013-09-16 15:38:18 <jgarzik> yeah, sad
 972 2013-09-16 15:38:39 <michagogo> And, is bfgminer a generally-recommended miner for most (all current on market?) mining hardware?
 973 2013-09-16 15:39:08 <nkuttler> so it's confusing if i write a wallet and each new account ends up with two addresses in it.. i could ofc code around the getaccountaddress behavior by not using it, but still..
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 975 2013-09-16 15:39:25 <jgarzik> michagogo, Politically speaking (and complicating matters), cgminer continues to compete with bfgminer
 976 2013-09-16 15:39:32 <gmaxwell> they're almost easier to run on p2pool than other things though. because you can point them directly to p2pool instead of needing that stratum proxy. (just use a username with +1 to give them the diff 1 shares since thats all they handle)
 977 2013-09-16 15:39:54 <jgarzik> I tend to prefer bfgminer, but conman would rightfully complain if excluded, since cgminer is actively maintained.
 978 2013-09-16 15:40:14 <michagogo> How compatible are they, and what are the differences between the two?
 979 2013-09-16 15:41:02 <jgarzik> michagogo, both bfgminer and cgminer began life from a common codebase, my (now ancient) cpuminer project
 980 2013-09-16 15:41:18 <jgarzik> so they share many behaviors and command line options, IIRC
 981 2013-09-16 15:41:29 <michagogo> What's "many"?
 982 2013-09-16 15:41:36 <gmaxwell> michagogo: bfgminer tends to be much more agressive with interesting features that are relevant to concerns like keeping the network decenteralized... but also includes varrious random features that conman thinks are stupid (including some of the aformentioned)
 983 2013-09-16 15:41:40 * jgarzik handwaves
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 985 2013-09-16 15:41:57 <michagogo> Interesting
 986 2013-09-16 15:42:03 <gmaxwell> e.g. you can solo mine with bfgminer, you can't with cgminer without setting up a seperate pool daemon.
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 989 2013-09-16 15:42:42 <michagogo> Hmm, mining with "self-contained nodes like Avalon with their own internal OS"-type miners on p2pool might be harder than "set up p2pool, point miner to it"
 990 2013-09-16 15:42:51 <michagogo> Because of DHCP
 991 2013-09-16 15:43:15 <jgarzik> michagogo, perhaps, though Avalon the smartest play tends to be ethernet + static IP
 992 2013-09-16 15:43:30 <gmaxwell> michagogo: yes, indeed. Your p2pool nodes IP need to be stable .. you can't even use name resolution on the avalons IIRC because they hardcode some third party DNS server.
 993 2013-09-16 15:44:01 <michagogo> they hardcode some third party DNS server? wtf?
 994 2013-09-16 15:44:13 <jgarzik> with Avalon, IMO, using DHCP or wifi results in more miner resets
 995 2013-09-16 15:44:31 <michagogo> jgarzik: I mean DHCP changing the p2pool node's address
 996 2013-09-16 15:45:30 <michagogo> Hmm, what does -G do when passed to bfgminer? Don't see it in readme
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 998 2013-09-16 15:45:41 <michagogo> I only see --gpu-threads|-g <arg> Number of threads per GPU (1 - 10) (default: 2)
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1000 2013-09-16 15:46:43 <gmaxwell> it sets how many mining threads are run per gpu, running more than one can reduce the time lost due to fetching more work, but increases stale rate... on some gpu models its more helpful than others.
1001 2013-09-16 15:47:00 <gmaxwell> IIRC cgminer has the same knob, unless they've removed it recently.
1002 2013-09-16 15:47:07 <michagogo> Oh, so -G and -g do the same thing?
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1007 2013-09-16 15:50:08 <michagogo> And what do --icarus-options 115200:1:1 --icarus-timing 3.0=100 do?
1008 2013-09-16 15:50:18 <michagogo> Ctrl-F didn't find them in README
1009 2013-09-16 15:51:50 <jgarzik> michagogo, those sound like magic options needed to get ASICMINER block erupters working
1010 2013-09-16 15:53:00 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: wrt that thread, I don't really know that p2pool is the One True Answer. People want other options in mining too— things like PPS, or lower variance for very small miners. Whats frustrating me here is that we're batching up choices that are unrelated. E.g. You can mine at the HUGE POOL and totally abrogate your responsibilty to the network in exchange for some coins, or you take play your role and have high variance.
1011 2013-09-16 15:53:14 <michagogo> Hmm, looking at p2pcoin
1012 2013-09-16 15:53:32 <michagogo> It seems that it's a full miner plus p2pool node
1013 2013-09-16 15:53:45 <gmaxwell> People who want to mine without the resources of running Bitcoin is a real issue too— uh, and one I don't have an answer to, in the long term I think its a big risk. But right now I think that isn't the primary driver of centeralization.
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1015 2013-09-16 15:53:58 <michagogo> If it can't get bitcoind to work, it will run as a dumb miner
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1017 2013-09-16 15:54:17 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, as we've touched on before in this channel :)
1018 2013-09-16 15:54:20 <michagogo> But 1) it's a full bootable package, not a bundle of software to run on your computer
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1020 2013-09-16 15:54:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, interest in a lightweight decentralized mining solution remains high.  I agree that public p2pool nodes cannot be trusted
1021 2013-09-16 15:55:05 <jgarzik> (unless they are run by trustworthy public operators, thus the "zero trust--" comment)
1022 2013-09-16 15:55:14 <michagogo> and 2) it can't (at least according to the forum thread) run just bitcoind+p2pool
1023 2013-09-16 15:55:22 <michagogo> which you'd need for those avalon-type boxes
1024 2013-09-16 15:55:34 <gmaxwell> michagogo: how does it deal with the storage requirements for bitcoind if its bootable?
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1026 2013-09-16 15:55:47 <jgarzik> I wish p2pool could run without local bitcoind
1027 2013-09-16 15:55:51 <jgarzik> had some SPV mode, or such
1028 2013-09-16 15:56:00 <jgarzik> yet still usable for mining
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1030 2013-09-16 15:56:13 <jgarzik> I know those are paradoxical statements :)
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1032 2013-09-16 15:56:20 <TD> jgarzik: would that not .... defeat the point?
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1034 2013-09-16 15:56:42 <michagogo> gmaxwell: either ramdisk or persistence
1035 2013-09-16 15:56:50 <TD> i don't understand why anyone would lay down serious coin for an ASIC unit, and then not bother running their own bitcoind+p2pool
1036 2013-09-16 15:56:59 <TD> i mean you already need a computer to connect to it ....
1037 2013-09-16 15:57:06 <michagogo> And if it can't get bitcoind to work (say, not enough space) it will basically run as a bootable bfgminer
1038 2013-09-16 15:57:24 <michagogo> TD: Not if you have a self-contained miner
1039 2013-09-16 15:57:26 <jgarzik> TD, having money does not imply having tech skill ;p
1040 2013-09-16 15:57:50 <TD> perhaps the solution is for a company to build "all in one" units that contain reasonably powerful headless computers inside them, that bring up bitcoind+p2pool as well. though then we get into the auto update discussion ...
1041 2013-09-16 15:57:52 <jgarzik> or wanting to run bitcoind locally, even  (resources/bandwidth)
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1043 2013-09-16 15:58:25 <jgarzik> Yifu said at the May conference that he really wanted to make it possible to run bitcoind on each Avalon unit, but it just wasn't feasible
1044 2013-09-16 15:58:29 <TD> i have to admit the whole situation is kind of insane. i remember when satoshi talked about "gpu farms" back in 2009 it seemed obvious that such organisations would run their own bitcoind. why would they not?
1045 2013-09-16 15:58:43 <Urushiol> is it just me or does the new qt client seem really unstable.
1046 2013-09-16 15:58:43 <TD> yet here we are
1047 2013-09-16 15:58:50 <Urushiol> ?
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1049 2013-09-16 15:59:08 <gmaxwell> TD: A few miners do, the vast majority do not— even ones with many tens of thousands of dollars in hardware. My hypothesis is that just dealing with everything else in the domain of mining is basically two full time jobs already.
1050 2013-09-16 15:59:18 <TD> that wouldn't surprise me
1051 2013-09-16 15:59:30 Raccoon is now known as the
1052 2013-09-16 15:59:30 the is now known as Raccoon
1053 2013-09-16 15:59:31 <Urushiol> I've had to reindex the blocks 3 times now
1054 2013-09-16 15:59:33 <Urushiol> in the past week
1055 2013-09-16 15:59:39 <michagogo> Urushiol: Are you on 0.8.5?
1056 2013-09-16 15:59:39 <TD> i guess once the crazy ASIC arms race settles down a bit they'll start looking for ways to optimise ROI and cutting out the pool fees will seem like an obvious step at that point
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1059 2013-09-16 15:59:40 <gmaxwell> Urushiol: what operating system and what version?
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1061 2013-09-16 15:59:53 <michagogo> Urushiol: If you're not on 0.8.5, get 0.8.5 and that will stop
1062 2013-09-16 16:00:03 <michagogo> (also, you don't actually need to be reindexing)
1063 2013-09-16 16:00:06 <Urushiol> 0.8.4. I didn't see 0.8.5 for mac
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1066 2013-09-16 16:00:34 <michagogo> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.5/bitcoin-0.8.5-macosx.dmg/download
1067 2013-09-16 16:00:48 <Urushiol> getting it now. thanks.
1068 2013-09-16 16:00:53 <michagogo> Urushiol: That bug is what 0.8.5 was fast-tracked for
1069 2013-09-16 16:00:54 <gmaxwell> TD: you would think, I actually started a thread to shake that particular tree: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=159598.0
1070 2013-09-16 16:01:02 <michagogo> It's not actually that you need to reindex
1071 2013-09-16 16:01:09 <michagogo> Rather, that it's thinking you need to reindex
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1073 2013-09-16 16:01:17 <TD> there are pools that levy 10%?
1074 2013-09-16 16:01:19 <TD> ye gods
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1076 2013-09-16 16:01:24 <gmaxwell> TD: PPS ones, sure.
1077 2013-09-16 16:01:34 * TD tries to ignore mining as much as possible these days
1078 2013-09-16 16:01:49 <gmaxwell> For a smallish PPS 10% may not even be enough to save them from risk of ruin in any case!
1079 2013-09-16 16:02:35 <gmaxwell> I boggle at are people who PPS mine then spend the results on gambling sites… :P  makes one wonder if really their addiction isn't actually just losing money. :)
1080 2013-09-16 16:02:40 <TD> hahaha
1081 2013-09-16 16:02:42 <Urushiol> just started 0.8.5 and now it's reindexing. I assume this will be the last time it does that. I hope so.
1082 2013-09-16 16:02:44 <TD> yeah
1083 2013-09-16 16:02:59 <TD> that's the bitcoin economy for you .... stuffed with people who can never get enough risk
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1085 2013-09-16 16:04:06 <gmaxwell> But they don't solo mine! I mean if you're into gambling, have I got the game for you!
1086 2013-09-16 16:04:35 <gmaxwell> you can play 60 billion times a second for femotopennies each, and a win is $3000!
1087 2013-09-16 16:04:43 <michagogo> Urushiol: Not the last time, but the last time because of this particular bug
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1099 2013-09-16 16:14:26 <nkuttler> gmaxwell: just to be clear, so i should avoid getaccountaddress unless there is more than one address for the account, or if there is only one address but it has received a transaction? sure i can do that, but imo that sounds like something the api should handle
1100 2013-09-16 16:15:05 <nkuttler> anyway, i'll open a ticket..
1101 2013-09-16 16:15:34 <gmaxwell> nkuttler: getaccountaddress gets you a new address for an account, unless the last one you got wasn't used yet, in which case it gives it to you again.
1102 2013-09-16 16:16:04 <nkuttler> gmaxwell: well that's what i'm saying, it gives me a new one even if the address wasn't used
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1104 2013-09-16 16:16:43 <nkuttler> however, i didn't "get" the first one with getaccountaddress but by getnewaddress newaccount
1105 2013-09-16 16:17:16 <nkuttler> heh.. let me just change that..
1106 2013-09-16 16:17:48 <gmaxwell> nkuttler: oh hm. Well thats certantly a preferrable behavior (that it never gives an address twice) but I thought it did otherwise.
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1108 2013-09-16 16:18:32 <nkuttler> no, get a second one even if the first is created with getaccountaddress.. will write everything up into a ticket
1109 2013-09-16 16:18:38 <gmaxwell> (the use of reuse is basically just the webwallet usecase, the risk of it is that if you use it for anything else you risk not knowing who paid you)
1110 2013-09-16 16:19:07 <nkuttler> in my case i had a gribble account and suddenly didn't know which address to use for auth. certainly an edge, but still
1111 2013-09-16 16:19:25 <gmaxwell> nkuttler: oh it's most certantly not for that!
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1113 2013-09-16 16:19:34 <gmaxwell> gribble tells you which address to use, IIRC.
1114 2013-09-16 16:19:42 <gmaxwell> (if it doesn't — uh that should be fixed. :P )
1115 2013-09-16 16:19:43 <nkuttler> he does? could be i guess :)
1116 2013-09-16 16:20:03 <nkuttler> doesn't look like it though, no
1117 2013-09-16 16:20:39 <gmaxwell> nanotube: ^
1118 2013-09-16 16:22:21 <TD> oooh. free android apps are now available in iran via the play store
1119 2013-09-16 16:22:29 <TD> i wonder if we'll see any uptake of the bitcoin wallet there
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1133 2013-09-16 16:33:41 <Luke-Jr> can anyone confirm or deny this hypothesis? "Mac users suffering from corruption all use SSDs."
1134 2013-09-16 16:34:33 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: ^ what kind of drive is in your Mac?
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1153 2013-09-16 16:51:03 <graingert> I wonder if someone could wedge https://zhovner.com/tmp/killwebkit.html into a block such that it ends up in the UI somehow
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1155 2013-09-16 16:51:17 <graingert> don't resolve that on a Mac
1156 2013-09-16 16:51:17 <gmaxwell> graingert: sure.
1157 2013-09-16 16:51:41 <graingert> gmaxwell, well you guys with a mesg
1158 2013-09-16 16:52:19 <michagogo> graingert: Resolving it isn't a problem
1159 2013-09-16 16:52:25 <gmaxwell> I mean, not in the bitcoin-qt UI, but, e.g. on bc.i: https://blockchain.info/tx/59bd7b2cff5da929581fc9fef31a2fba14508f1477e366befb1eb42a8810a000?show_adv=true
1160 2013-09-16 16:52:27 <michagogo> Neither is loading the page, actually
1161 2013-09-16 16:52:36 ThomasV has joined
1162 2013-09-16 16:52:40 <michagogo> The only problem is with trying to render it with coretext
1163 2013-09-16 16:53:10 <graingert> michagogo, well yeah
1164 2013-09-16 16:53:29 <gmaxwell> graingert: in bitcoin-qt we should never be displaying foreign strings as anything but hex.
1165 2013-09-16 16:53:30 forrestv has joined
1166 2013-09-16 16:53:32 <graingert> I hear pasting it into IRC can be problematic also, michagogo
1167 2013-09-16 16:53:45 <gmaxwell> graingert: and will also get you klined on freenode.
1168 2013-09-16 16:53:53 <michagogo> A browser that doesn't use CoreText (if there are any) or a browser that displays as non-unicode is fine
1169 2013-09-16 16:55:15 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Well, until payment requests
1170 2013-09-16 16:56:49 <graingert> gmaxwell, yeah that would also cause breakage
1171 2013-09-16 16:56:56 <graingert> michagogo, *
1172 2013-09-16 16:57:02 <graingert> is that not fixed in the OS yet?
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1177 2013-09-16 16:58:52 <michagogo> graingert: Yes, in OS X 10.8.5
1178 2013-09-16 16:59:01 <michagogo> But that was just a couple days ago
1179 2013-09-16 16:59:38 btsec has joined
1180 2013-09-16 16:59:38 <michagogo> And any user who hasn't updated and clicks this link while running git master HEAD will crash their client: bitcoin:1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE?request=https%3A%2F%2Fbitcoincore.org%2F%7Egavin%2Ff.php%3Fh%3Dccf8c10ffee3c1125c300b823a3b6101&amount=1.0E-8
1181 2013-09-16 17:01:02 <TD> is the crash bug there the scientification notation on the amount? the request param should override that
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1183 2013-09-16 17:01:18 <michagogo> TD: No, it's not
1184 2013-09-16 17:01:34 <michagogo> It's a string of Arabic characters that causes a SIGSEGV
1185 2013-09-16 17:01:40 <michagogo> TD: are you on a Mac?
1186 2013-09-16 17:01:56 <TD> i have a mac at home. atm on linux. about to go home for the evening.
1187 2013-09-16 17:02:15 <TD> sigh. C++ is such a fucking dangerous language to work in.
1188 2013-09-16 17:02:22 <michagogo> That's not a bitcoin bug
1189 2013-09-16 17:02:23 <gmaxwell> It's not C++'s fault here.
1190 2013-09-16 17:02:27 <michagogo> It's an OS X bug
1191 2013-09-16 17:02:33 <TD> ahhh the CoreText issue?
1192 2013-09-16 17:02:35 <gmaxwell> It's OSX's (also IOS) text rendering.
1193 2013-09-16 17:02:36 <michagogo> Specifically, the CoreText libra-
1194 2013-09-16 17:02:38 <michagogo> yeah
1195 2013-09-16 17:02:38 <TD> well objective-c is even less safe than C++ :)
1196 2013-09-16 17:02:39 <gmaxwell> Yep.
1197 2013-09-16 17:02:56 <imsaguy> ;;gpg info imsaguy
1198 2013-09-16 17:02:56 <gribble> User 'imsaguy', with keyid 7D7EA76776E6CE48, fingerprint A1398F4C58AC3D387F012AFA7D7EA76776E6CE48, and bitcoin address 1Hf5qWZzd2WsrDwLhkykNc4uXPAkykg9PM, registered on Wed Jun 29 22:52:36 2011. http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewgpg.php?nick=imsaguy . Currently not authenticated.
1199 2013-09-16 17:03:00 <gmaxwell> michagogo: do you know if that sequence is valid unicode?
1200 2013-09-16 17:03:00 <TD> ok, well that's good. iirc that one isn't exploitable
1201 2013-09-16 17:03:07 <michagogo> TD: that came from [19:49:55] <graingert> I wonder if someone could wedge https://zhovner.com/tmp/killwebkit.html into a block such that it ends up in the UI somehow
1202 2013-09-16 17:03:08 <imsaguy> that tells you which bitcoin address to use
1203 2013-09-16 17:03:14 <michagogo> Well, yeah, but it's still a DOS
1204 2013-09-16 17:03:22 <imsaguy> nkuttler ^^
1205 2013-09-16 17:03:22 <michagogo> ;;bcauth
1206 2013-09-16 17:03:23 <gribble> (bcauth <nick>) -- Initiate authentication for user <nick>. You must have registered with the bot with a bitcoin address for this to work. You will be given a random passphrase to sign with your address, and submit to the bot with the 'bcverify' command. Your passphrase will expire within 10 minutes.
1207 2013-09-16 17:03:26 <michagogo> ;;bcauth michagogo
1208 2013-09-16 17:03:26 <gribble> Request successful for user michagogo, hostmask michagogo!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo. Your challenge string is: freenode:#bitcoin-otc:707b5dfe3afff1f33f0713c71c4851d361faa549149596c39fa4f9b7
1209 2013-09-16 17:03:29 <gmaxwell> michagogo: it wouldn't be hard to sanitize the text to only be valid unicode.
1210 2013-09-16 17:03:32 <TD> yeah but bitcoin doesn't display random strings off the wire unless they're in signed alerts
1211 2013-09-16 17:03:40 <gmaxwell> michagogo: don't do that crap in here. /msg gribble
1212 2013-09-16 17:03:47 <TD> hmm. unless the logging code hits CoreText, but i guess not
1213 2013-09-16 17:04:03 <michagogo> TD: it doesn't
1214 2013-09-16 17:04:23 <michagogo> It may make logfiles unreadable, though
1215 2013-09-16 17:04:28 <gmaxwell> it would when you displayed it in a terminal I suspect.. but the url example there would get you in the UI.
1216 2013-09-16 17:04:36 <nkuttler> imsaguy: i see, ty
1217 2013-09-16 17:04:46 <michagogo> [20:02:23] <TD> yeah but bitcoin doesn't display random strings off the wire unless they're in signed alerts
1218 2013-09-16 17:04:46 <michagogo> Yeah, that was already said
1219 2013-09-16 17:04:50 <michagogo> read backlogs :-P
1220 2013-09-16 17:05:05 <TD> that's true
1221 2013-09-16 17:05:14 <gmaxwell> michagogo: but I think it does now though, via payment requests.
1222 2013-09-16 17:05:20 <michagogo> Right
1223 2013-09-16 17:05:22 <gmaxwell> depending on which wire you mean. :)
1224 2013-09-16 17:05:30 <TD> yeah. but if you crash during a payment request, if it's not exploitable you just restart the wallet and go buy from someone else ...
1225 2013-09-16 17:05:32 <michagogo> That was also just said :-P
1226 2013-09-16 17:05:39 <gmaxwell> sanitizing the text to be valid unicode may be reasonable.
1227 2013-09-16 17:06:05 <michagogo> TD: True, that's not the same kind of DoS that, say, having the ability to display a string in the Transactions tab would be
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1229 2013-09-16 17:06:36 <michagogo> TD: It can still be bad though, since under the right (wrong) circumstances it can cause you to need to reindex
1230 2013-09-16 17:07:03 <TD> what keeps me up at night is the thought of exploitable crashes in bitcoind itself. fortunately the way satoshi wrote it, there's hardly any dynamic memory management or buffers
1231 2013-09-16 17:07:10 <TD> but i'm not sure all future changes will be done as carefully
1232 2013-09-16 17:09:07 TD has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1233 2013-09-16 17:09:55 <jgarzik> except for that mempool thing
1234 2013-09-16 17:10:45 <michagogo> re: that p2pool thing, as far as I can tell it's fairly trivial
1235 2013-09-16 17:11:34 <michagogo> 1) have bitcoind running, or bitcoin-qt with rpcpassword=foo and server=1 in bitcoin.conf
1236 2013-09-16 17:11:36 <jgarzik> michagogo, writing a doc for it, you mean?  cool.
1237 2013-09-16 17:11:41 <michagogo> 2) double-click p2pool.exe
1238 2013-09-16 17:11:51 <michagogo> 3) point your miner at localhost
1239 2013-09-16 17:11:56 <michagogo> :9332
1240 2013-09-16 17:14:34 <michagogo> jgarzik: No, getting it running
1241 2013-09-16 17:15:04 <michagogo> Of course it's better to also get port forwarding set up on ports 8333 and 9333, but that's not essential.
1242 2013-09-16 17:16:40 <gmaxwell> michagogo: sure but good docs would walk people through. e.g. assuming the user doesn't know how to use the CLI.
1243 2013-09-16 17:16:47 <gmaxwell> Along with screenshots and whatever.
1244 2013-09-16 17:17:17 Coincidental has joined
1245 2013-09-16 17:18:29 <michagogo> If someone makes a good guide for getting the miner itself working, I'll chip in the "set up p2pool" part :-D
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1247 2013-09-16 17:24:37 <Luke-Jr> pool-specific stuff is eww
1248 2013-09-16 17:25:24 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: Well, if you read up, we were talking specifically about p2pool
1249 2013-09-16 17:25:39 <michagogo> And how to encourage users from BTC Guild, etc to switch
1250 2013-09-16 17:25:55 <michagogo> (answer: make it easier to set up by providing guides)
1251 2013-09-16 17:25:58 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: there's no reason p2pool should be given preferential treatment either
1252 2013-09-16 17:26:47 <michagogo> The point is, we were discussing the existence (or lack thereof) of a "how to set up p2pool" guide
1253 2013-09-16 17:27:08 <Luke-Jr> its readme isn't sufficient? :P
1254 2013-09-16 17:28:00 <michagogo> [20:09:36] <michagogo> re: that p2pool thing, as far as I can tell it's fairly trivial [20:10:25] <michagogo> 1) have bitcoind running, or bitcoin-qt with rpcpassword=foo and server=1 in bitcoin.conf [20:10:32] <michagogo> 2) double-click p2pool.exe [20:10:42] <michagogo> 3) point your miner at localhost:9332
1255 2013-09-16 17:28:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: There really is a reason p2pool should be given preferential treatment, not prefferential to things like solo mining or the hypothetical but not actually existing yet coinbase only mining.
1256 2013-09-16 17:28:21 <michagogo> But also [18:56:17] <jgarzik> TD, having money does not imply having tech skill ;p
1257 2013-09-16 17:28:43 <michagogo> coinbase only mining?
1258 2013-09-16 17:28:49 <gmaxwell> But compared to being a remote computing agent for some centeralized pool, ... yes, it really should be giving preferential placement. Come on, you know this argument, we don't need to go through it.
1259 2013-09-16 17:29:29 <gmaxwell> michagogo: Where a pool gives you a coinbase transaction and you solo mine using the pool's coinbase, and then send the pool shares and it credits you for shares that have the coinbase the pool wanted.
1260 2013-09-16 17:29:40 <michagogo> Interesting
1261 2013-09-16 17:30:11 <michagogo> Can't that be done now with just gbt and lots of mutables?
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1263 2013-09-16 17:31:53 <gmaxwell> michagogo: Mostly. To avoid the bandwidth overhead you'd want to be able to say "don't send me transactions", I don't think any of the current parameters do that.
1264 2013-09-16 17:32:15 <gmaxwell> The non-existing part is mostly the miner support. E.g. get your coinbases from X, network consensus from Y.
1265 2013-09-16 17:32:22 <michagogo> Oh, right -- you'd need your own bitcoind to provide the transactions
1266 2013-09-16 17:32:32 pooler_ has joined
1267 2013-09-16 17:32:36 <michagogo> (since you don't want to mine 25BTC blocks)
1268 2013-09-16 17:33:04 <gmaxwell> michagogo: or someone elses! part of the idea there is that you decouple pooling for payment from abrogating your responsibility to protect the network.
1269 2013-09-16 17:33:13 mortikia has joined
1270 2013-09-16 17:33:52 <michagogo> Well, if you're getting transactions from somewhere else you don't necessarily know that you're only mining valid transactions...
1271 2013-09-16 17:33:58 <gmaxwell> but perhaps you still would designate your consensus, but that doesn't have to do anything with pooling your income: the income pooling wants the largets possible pools.
1272 2013-09-16 17:34:17 <michagogo> Ah, I see
1273 2013-09-16 17:34:51 <michagogo> So you're saying that the miner should connect to 2 servers
1274 2013-09-16 17:35:04 <michagogo> One that pools the payouts, and one that provides transactions to mine
1275 2013-09-16 17:35:05 <gmaxwell> michagogo: Right, thats not a preferred outcome, but if people are going to skip out on running nodes— which sucks but there are people with 100k in asic gear being run off rasberry pis, so what do you want?—  but the two activities should be independant.
1276 2013-09-16 17:35:43 <gmaxwell> Yes, and ideally you run your own server for the transactions. But, realistically, some won't do that. They shouldn't be coerced into these great big consolidation points just because that produces the most stable income.
1277 2013-09-16 17:35:44 <Luke-Jr> hmm, that's an idea that hadn't occurred to me
1278 2013-09-16 17:35:58 <michagogo> That makes a lot of sense.
1279 2013-09-16 17:36:07 <Luke-Jr> (I was planning to make it possible, but the practical use case I mean)
1280 2013-09-16 17:37:24 <michagogo> Actually, that should already be possible -- all that's needed is a miner that will use a gbt response from one place with a different coinbase, and a poolserver that makes everything mutable
1281 2013-09-16 17:37:33 <michagogo> (or am I missing something?)
1282 2013-09-16 17:37:48 <gmaxwell> michagogo: yes, it's perfectly possible. But it doesn't exist yet.
1283 2013-09-16 17:38:21 <gmaxwell> its how pooled mining should have originally been done. If satoshi had gbt before someone thought to do pooled mining it's probably what _would_ have been done.
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1285 2013-09-16 17:38:42 <gmaxwell> now that people are used to the dumb-sell-your-computation model it may be hard to turn back the clock though.
1286 2013-09-16 17:38:58 <michagogo> Am I wrong to think that the code changes would not be extremely complex?
1287 2013-09-16 17:39:07 <gmaxwell> now that people are used to thinking that all you need to mine is a rpi and some account a BIGMININGPOOL.
1288 2013-09-16 17:39:47 <gmaxwell> michagogo: it's certantly not conceptually hard.
1289 2013-09-16 17:39:50 <imsaguy> not all miners are dumb miners
1290 2013-09-16 17:40:31 <imsaguy> Plus if you can somehow convince the shovel shops, you can get ahead of the tail spin
1291 2013-09-16 17:40:36 <michagogo> If a couple of the larger pools were to patch their servers to make gbt have lots of mutables, someone could make a miner for it
1292 2013-09-16 17:40:43 <Luke-Jr> imsaguy: the one you prefer is
1293 2013-09-16 17:40:45 <michagogo> (or even a patch to an existing miner)
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1295 2013-09-16 17:40:58 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: I'm working on support for libblkmaker
1296 2013-09-16 17:41:07 <michagogo> libblkmaker?
1297 2013-09-16 17:41:11 <michagogo> ;;google libblkmaker
1298 2013-09-16 17:41:12 <gribble> libblkmaker - Gitorious: <http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/libblkmaker>; Commits in bitcoin/libblkmaker ... - Gitorious: <http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/libblkmaker/commits>; Getblocktemplate - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate>
1299 2013-09-16 17:41:15 <imsaguy> Luke-Jr, are you sure you know what I prefer?
1300 2013-09-16 17:41:18 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: GBT reference client
1301 2013-09-16 17:41:23 <jgarzik> big pools have little incentive to decentralize :/
1302 2013-09-16 17:41:29 <Luke-Jr> imsaguy: unless it's changed recently! :P
1303 2013-09-16 17:41:52 <imsaguy> Luke-Jr: you realize part of my preference stems with how the different developers interface with people
1304 2013-09-16 17:41:56 <gmaxwell> imsaguy: In any case, there is a limit with how smart a miner can be without its own view of the network consensus.
1305 2013-09-16 17:42:40 <imsaguy> gmaxwell: when I said miner, I meant the person, not the hardware
1306 2013-09-16 17:43:31 <gmaxwell> imsaguy: sure not all miners are click and drool, I didn't even mean that as an insult. as I said to mike earlier, I think people's bandwidth is already saturated with other stuff (e.g. tracking down late deliveries and crappy vendors)
1307 2013-09-16 17:44:34 <michagogo> Well, I'd imagine that a large portion of the userbase of the largest pools *are* "click and drool", as gmaxwell puts it :-(
1308 2013-09-16 17:45:02 <gmaxwell> You don't know what you don't know.
1309 2013-09-16 17:45:15 <michagogo> I'm sure there's a lot that I don't know
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1311 2013-09-16 17:46:04 <gmaxwell> But in any case, splitting up the choice— so that a rational choice to use a large pool to get a preferred form of payouts is not inexorably linked to handing over control of the network consensus would be a big step forward.
1312 2013-09-16 17:48:02 <jgarzik> I love alt-coin drama.  "Phenixcoin shocked me when they launched a patch that changed the mint rate with a hard fork with six hours' notice…That was a complete shock for everyone, especially anyone who had 'invested' in Phenixcoin"
1313 2013-09-16 17:48:31 <Luke-Jr> lol
1314 2013-09-16 17:48:41 <gmaxwell> Shocked! Totally SHOCKED!
1315 2013-09-16 17:48:59 <Luke-Jr> and they don't realise they can refuse the change? :P
1316 2013-09-16 17:49:01 <gmaxwell> was it successful?
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1318 2013-09-16 17:55:45 <maaku> you mean did they successfully scam people?
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1321 2013-09-16 17:57:45 <gmaxwell> I mean, was the fork successful or did it fail to take hold? did the users switch and complain in the process? was the fork enforced via one of those centeralized checkpoint mechensisms the altcoins are using now? or via an autoupdater?
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1360 2013-09-16 18:58:24 <jgarzik> Source of alt-coin info: http://www.coindesk.com/unocs-altcoin-partnership-dismantled-following-feathercoin-pullout/
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1389 2013-09-16 19:37:49 <kjj> I find it very odd that the hash rate is growing so fast at a time when no miners are available that will do more than barely break even based on moderate growth assumptions
1390 2013-09-16 19:39:01 <jgarzik> Alydian has a lot of hash power, all by themselves
1391 2013-09-16 19:39:06 <jgarzik> dunno if they are online yet
1392 2013-09-16 19:39:22 <jgarzik> BFL is finally shipping in volume
1393 2013-09-16 19:39:54 Sarah has joined
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1395 2013-09-16 19:42:48 <gmaxwell> kjj: I suspect you have a weird idea about what moderate means.
1396 2013-09-16 19:43:23 saulimus has joined
1397 2013-09-16 19:46:15 <sipa> the only real question is when the exponential growth will stop :)
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1400 2013-09-16 19:46:52 <kjj> gmaxwell: my projections are based on 50% monthly growth until we hit 150 million difficulty, then 10% monthly after that.  reality is that we are more than doubling each month
1401 2013-09-16 19:47:53 <jgarzik> "You want 5 minute confirmations?  Come to bitcoin, where we produce blocks FAST!"
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1403 2013-09-16 19:49:32 * Luke-Jr thinks we should avoid using the term "confirmation(s)" to refer to single blocks
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1405 2013-09-16 19:50:57 <jgarzik> Any transaction not buried 6 deep is confirmed to be unconfirmed
1406 2013-09-16 19:51:24 <gmaxwell> unconfirmations: -5
1407 2013-09-16 19:52:43 <kjj> sipa: indeed, it can't go on forever.  the shape of the taper will be interesting to see
1408 2013-09-16 19:53:20 <gmaxwell> well, I suppose you'll see stacked S curves as generations of hardware get turned off...
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1411 2013-09-16 19:56:57 <kjj> I guess the big question is whether or not the next generation of ASICs built on smaller feature lines will be enough to bring the expected earnings curve back over unity
1412 2013-09-16 19:58:50 <jgarzik> if the bitcoin price is high enough, even GPU mining will continue ;p
1413 2013-09-16 19:58:58 <kjj> I knew that commodity hashing was coming, I just didn't expect it so soon
1414 2013-09-16 20:00:19 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm not sure if gpu has been deflected to other things or not.
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1417 2013-09-16 20:03:09 <jgarzik> RE pace of commodity hashing.  Draw an analogy to China and the US:  Especially when it comes to space or military hardware, China has been playing catch-up.  China had a long way to go, but through development, open research and industrial espionage, caught up rapidly to current-tech.  Same with mining.  Avalon chips really are quite low tech.
1418 2013-09-16 20:03:24 <kjj> I expect that most GPUs that aren't running on free power are off now
1419 2013-09-16 20:03:25 <jgarzik> But given existing technology out there, there is plenty of low hanging fruit in terms of efficiency improvements.
1420 2013-09-16 20:03:38 <jgarzik> Once most of the miners in the field are running 28nm, things will slow down.
1421 2013-09-16 20:03:57 <jgarzik> (there's still 22nm and then 14nm as next steps, but that's my prediction)
1422 2013-09-16 20:04:33 <gmaxwell> even on a single process there is a lot you can do with a very careful design.
1423 2013-09-16 20:04:53 <gmaxwell> e.g. the bitfury 55nm stuff performs as well as the upcoming 28nm devices are claiming.
1424 2013-09-16 20:05:27 <gmaxwell> but it clearly had a very careful design. (as evidence by the very regular geometry in the die shots where people have ground down the chips)
1425 2013-09-16 20:05:28 asuk is now known as asuk|afk
1426 2013-09-16 20:05:35 <kjj> careful design is hard.  feature shrink is easy (but expensive)
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1428 2013-09-16 20:05:50 <warren> jgarzik: more alt-coin drama: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=282314.msg3031901#msg3031901
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1430 2013-09-16 20:06:53 <kjj> for paid electricity, at 11 cents per kW/h, the break even is 109.09 watts or LESS per Ghash/sec
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1434 2013-09-16 20:08:24 <gmaxwell> kjj: assuming your exponential growth model.
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1436 2013-09-16 20:08:36 <jgarzik> wow. C difficile kills 14,000 Americans/year.  Thus "difficile" I guess
1437 2013-09-16 20:08:42 <jgarzik> </OT>
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1440 2013-09-16 20:09:02 <kjj> gmaxwell:  no, that's based on instant difficulty.
1441 2013-09-16 20:10:02 <gmaxwell> oh you said per gigahash. not per TH/s.
1442 2013-09-16 20:10:06 <sipa> jgarzik: <OT> C difficile?
1443 2013-09-16 20:10:06 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1444 2013-09-16 20:10:46 <sipa> ok, google knew
1445 2013-09-16 20:10:54 <gmaxwell> kjj: sure, none of the asic miners are worse than about 10x better than that.
1446 2013-09-16 20:11:19 <kjj> yup, but all of the GPUs are worse than it
1447 2013-09-16 20:11:30 StarenseN has joined
1448 2013-09-16 20:11:47 <kjj> so, the bulk of GPU miners are either already off, will be off soon, or should be.  (assuming that free power is rare)
1449 2013-09-16 20:12:46 <gmaxwell> kjj: I hadn't crunched by I checked last difficulty cycle and at 6.5 cts kwh there were just basically at breakeven. so yea, should be not anymore.
1450 2013-09-16 20:13:51 <jgarzik> es muy dificil
1451 2013-09-16 20:14:18 <nkuttler> mining can still be profitable?
1452 2013-09-16 20:14:38 <kjj> at 6.5 cents per kW/h, I come up with 192 watts per gHash/sec
1453 2013-09-16 20:14:40 * nkuttler  should really read the whitepaper..
1454 2013-09-16 20:15:38 <kjj> that seems like it is cutting it close, even with published specs (vs. actual wall power)
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1459 2013-09-16 20:20:11 <kjj> nkuttler: personally, I recommend sitting out for a while.
1460 2013-09-16 20:20:37 <nkuttler> kjj: it's just that i read everywhere that buying btc has a better roi than buying hardware
1461 2013-09-16 20:20:46 <imsaguy> Mining can always be profitable depending on your definition of profit.
1462 2013-09-16 20:20:50 <imsaguy> Not all profit is measured in USD.
1463 2013-09-16 20:20:51 <nkuttler> and from my own calculations that seems accurate
1464 2013-09-16 20:20:55 <nkuttler> true that
1465 2013-09-16 20:20:57 <imsaguy> For example: securing the network.
1466 2013-09-16 20:21:25 <nkuttler> well, people with many btc have a big interest in that i guess
1467 2013-09-16 20:21:27 <gmaxwell> Even if mining is just "break even": it's the only perfectly anonymous way to buy bitcoin.
1468 2013-09-16 20:21:47 <gmaxwell> or at least potentially perfectly anonymous.
1469 2013-09-16 20:22:16 <kjj> if you can buy mining gear with cash, or even better, reversible credit, it may be a better buy than an outright currency swap
1470 2013-09-16 20:22:19 <nkuttler> relay the ip, doesn't it? anything else?
1471 2013-09-16 20:22:22 <nkuttler> relays
1472 2013-09-16 20:22:33 <nkuttler> hm
1473 2013-09-16 20:23:04 <kjj> my calculations are based on buying mining gear with BTC, hoping for a return in BTC.  I don't care to guess at the future BTC/$ ratio
1474 2013-09-16 20:23:11 <TD> what exactly is the mastercoin guy doing that creates unspendable outputs?
1475 2013-09-16 20:23:30 <jgarzik> TD, some sort of data transiting
1476 2013-09-16 20:23:33 <imsaguy> nkuttler: you can use tor
1477 2013-09-16 20:23:37 <kjj> and my calculations say that mining is a bloodbath today, so buying BTC is probably wiser (not counting the intangibles, like gmaxwell mentioned)
1478 2013-09-16 20:23:41 <nkuttler> imsaguy: sure
1479 2013-09-16 20:24:12 <TD> so each mastercoin transaction burns money?
1480 2013-09-16 20:24:18 <imsaguy> kjj: if going pure dollars and cents and ignoring the possibility that difficulty could decrease, then sure.
1481 2013-09-16 20:24:19 <kjj> well, they can
1482 2013-09-16 20:25:11 <TD> ah, i see
1483 2013-09-16 20:25:11 <kjj> to use mastercoin, you send money to dacoinminister, plus you send money to scripts that aren't derived from a pubkey (and are thus unspendable)
1484 2013-09-16 20:25:13 <TD> http://blockchain.info/tx/fb30e4ffadc060c45dbef99b7942df9ceed372df1ee2bf7f996064728ba2b2ce
1485 2013-09-16 20:25:17 <TD> yes the last output is unspendable
1486 2013-09-16 20:26:17 <nanotube> nkuttler: try "gpg info nkuttler" to get your registration info. (cc gmaxwell)
1487 2013-09-16 20:26:19 <kjj> I'm not sure that people understood that they were giving him money when they signed up.
1488 2013-09-16 20:26:22 <TD> they're not even using pubkeys
1489 2013-09-16 20:26:32 * jgarzik would love to answer, but only has the first paragraph of the first page of the MasterCoin Complete Specification.  But yes, it transits smart property via unspendable outputs AFAIK
1490 2013-09-16 20:26:32 Krellan_ has joined
1491 2013-09-16 20:26:44 <TD> kjj: well i thought he was pretty open that he was going to use "exodus money" to fund the project
1492 2013-09-16 20:26:51 <jgarzik> somewhat like colored coins
1493 2013-09-16 20:27:08 <TD> well smart property is, as far as i know, a term i invented when i wrote that wiki page and the protocol i proposed doesn't use unspendable outputs
1494 2013-09-16 20:27:25 <TD> it did use zero-valued sentinel outputs as a way to track ownership without value being propagated, but a small value output is just as workable
1495 2013-09-16 20:28:12 <jgarzik> and my smartcoin almost-project (I start a lot of projects that I never finish :)) used OP_DROP, nothing unspendable
1496 2013-09-16 20:28:16 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1497 2013-09-16 20:28:18 <nkuttler> nanotube: yes, got it, thanks :) my question was more about the getaccountaddress initially though, but i'll open a ticket tomorrow after some testing
1498 2013-09-16 20:28:28 c0rw1n has joined
1499 2013-09-16 20:28:30 <kjj> TD: I thought it was pretty clear too, but I can't imagine that many people PAYING him for that vapor.  I suspect that a lot of people thought the exodus was a blackhole
1500 2013-09-16 20:28:36 <jgarzik> unspendable output was an innovation, then :)
1501 2013-09-16 20:28:47 <gmaxwell> TD: the idea is that there will be this "mastercoin" which has its own fixed supply and will support this long list of not very well described features, and will be encoded as unspendable junk (fake hash160s outputs) in the blockchain. The whining about the unspendable junk has him looking for other ways to make the bitcoin network store his data.
1502 2013-09-16 20:28:58 <_ingsoc> My understanding is that there are two Mastercoin projects, or am I mistaken?
1503 2013-09-16 20:29:05 <TD> what is actually encoded into the address?
1504 2013-09-16 20:29:22 <TD> they look pretty ….. dataish. i wonder if a rule can be written to identify them reliably and delete them from the utxo set
1505 2013-09-16 20:29:25 <kjj> TD: lots of stuff.  best to find the paper and read it
1506 2013-09-16 20:29:29 <gmaxwell> In the initial cut though he was limited to the transactions blockchain.info would allow him to create, since thats where that "exodus" private key is located.
1507 2013-09-16 20:29:29 <TD> i did try to read it once
1508 2013-09-16 20:29:46 <TD> heh
1509 2013-09-16 20:29:52 <sipa> wait
1510 2013-09-16 20:29:54 <kjj> yeah, took me a few tries too
1511 2013-09-16 20:29:59 <sipa> b.i has the exodus key?
1512 2013-09-16 20:30:14 <gmaxwell> I believe thats the case, yes. Unless I misunderstood him.
1513 2013-09-16 20:30:19 <TD> and every mastercoin tx gives him money?
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1515 2013-09-16 20:30:48 <TD> having met the guy, i would not have pegged him as the type that would come up with a scheme like that
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1517 2013-09-16 20:31:01 <gmaxwell> TD: just those useless old bitcoins they don't give him any mastercoins... :P  I mean there is not yet any real software behind this stuff.
1518 2013-09-16 20:31:07 <gmaxwell> Well, he has investors.
1519 2013-09-16 20:31:18 <_ingsoc> 500k I believe.
1520 2013-09-16 20:31:20 <_ingsoc> Or more.
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1522 2013-09-16 20:31:44 <sipa> wait, but the coins are spent or not?
1523 2013-09-16 20:31:45 CryptoBuck has joined
1524 2013-09-16 20:31:49 <_ingsoc> Without a development plan.
1525 2013-09-16 20:31:53 <gmaxwell> I just mean to say some of the design might be monetization concessions… it's hard to fund infrastructure.
1526 2013-09-16 20:31:54 <Cusipzzz> i thought it was just fancy colored coins
1527 2013-09-16 20:31:56 <kjj> who wants to start a pool for the date that he announces that his blockchain.info wallet has been "hacked" ?
1528 2013-09-16 20:32:09 <_ingsoc> Lmao.
1529 2013-09-16 20:32:17 <TD> sipa: b.i says total received 4,740.16673033 and final balance 4,337.66723033
1530 2013-09-16 20:32:26 <sipa> so it gets spent?
1531 2013-09-16 20:32:28 <TD> so some money has "exodused" the exodus address
1532 2013-09-16 20:32:29 <nanotube> nkuttler: heh well i'm only responsible for gribble. what you do with your client is your own responsibility :D
1533 2013-09-16 20:32:35 <nkuttler> btw, are there some docs how to create a completely private blockchain for testing purposes? think writing unit tests outside of testnet
1534 2013-09-16 20:32:46 <nkuttler> nanotube: sure :) i blame the api though
1535 2013-09-16 20:32:46 <Luke-Jr> TD: only if you subscribe to the misunderstanding of bitcoin wallets!
1536 2013-09-16 20:32:48 <imsaguy> don't lie, gribble is satoshi.
1537 2013-09-16 20:32:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: it gets spent! it sent me 3 unsolicited BTC.
1538 2013-09-16 20:32:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: heh?
1539 2013-09-16 20:33:05 <TD> but how many mastercoins is that?!
1540 2013-09-16 20:33:14 <TD> this whole thing is bizarre
1541 2013-09-16 20:33:17 <sipa> are mastercoins backed by bitcoins?
1542 2013-09-16 20:33:35 <maaku> nkuttler: there's a regression test network for that specific purpose
1543 2013-09-16 20:33:35 <TD> it feels like people got tired of waiting for someone to implement all the nice contracts features they heard so much about, and gave it to the first person who said he'd deliver all of them
1544 2013-09-16 20:33:36 <sipa> as in with a fixed conversion rate
1545 2013-09-16 20:33:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: bitcoins convolved by the (un)trustworthyness of the whole thing?
1546 2013-09-16 20:33:45 <nkuttler> maaku: oh, nice, will have a look, thanks
1547 2013-09-16 20:33:46 <Luke-Jr> I'm going to look over JR's mastercoin stuff when I get a chance and see if I can suggest some improvements
1548 2013-09-16 20:34:11 <kjj> sipa: people paid him in return for a multiplied value in MC in the future.  the money will apparently be used to pay for development.
1549 2013-09-16 20:34:13 <_ingsoc> Should you figure this stuff out before taking money?
1550 2013-09-16 20:34:25 <_ingsoc> Seriously, does anyone see a problem with that?
1551 2013-09-16 20:34:27 <sipa> kjj: that's not my question :)
1552 2013-09-16 20:34:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think they are not, e.g. no fixed rate conversion.
1553 2013-09-16 20:34:43 <TD> well, apparently he isn't actually going to work on it himself (or at least not full time)
1554 2013-09-16 20:34:47 <kjj> sipa: well, the direct answer is no then
1555 2013-09-16 20:34:47 <TD> from a quick scan read of the thread
1556 2013-09-16 20:34:51 <TD> he wants to pay other people to do it for him
1557 2013-09-16 20:34:52 <gmaxwell> people gave him bitcoins, and will get a share of the resulting mastercoins.
1558 2013-09-16 20:35:11 <_ingsoc> That's crazy unethical in my view.
1559 2013-09-16 20:35:19 <gmaxwell> TD: I figured that but I'd missed it being said, pretty clear that no real technical work had been done yet.
1560 2013-09-16 20:35:24 <Cusipzzz> he's an idea guy
1561 2013-09-16 20:35:35 <_ingsoc> An "idea" guy.
1562 2013-09-16 20:35:37 <jgarzik> fundamentally MasterCoins are a fixed asset that is traded wholly within the blockchain, not so different from colored coins
1563 2013-09-16 20:35:40 <TD> he said his wife won't let him quit his job unless he gets "huge salary" like his current one
1564 2013-09-16 20:35:41 michagogo has quit (Quit: goodnight)
1565 2013-09-16 20:35:50 <TD> and he and his investors decided that would be a poor use of the raised funds!
1566 2013-09-16 20:36:00 <gmaxwell> Apparently they really dont like calling it an altcoin, but I can't think of anything more accuract to say, except that perhaps an altcoin is a little too kind in that its also parasitic on bitcoin.
1567 2013-09-16 20:36:06 <Cusipzzz> jgarzik: yes, when i looked at it, eemed to be branded color coins and some mumjo jumbo to secure early investors
1568 2013-09-16 20:36:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, well, a fixed-allocation asset
1569 2013-09-16 20:36:18 <kjj> $600,000 is a "huge salary" for a couple of years
1570 2013-09-16 20:36:18 <edcba> [22:34:30] <TD> he said his wife won't let him quit his job unless he gets "huge salary" like his current one < you mean he has a wife and he is employed ?
1571 2013-09-16 20:36:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, more like an in-chain set of stock shares
1572 2013-09-16 20:36:43 * helo votes
1573 2013-09-16 20:36:46 <imsaguy> maybe he could sell the idea to asicminer?
1574 2013-09-16 20:36:54 <_ingsoc> He's going to get screwed. The legality of what he's done is questionable in itself.
1575 2013-09-16 20:36:59 patcon has joined
1576 2013-09-16 20:37:01 <TD> sure
1577 2013-09-16 20:37:05 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: except it's supposted to be traded as money like good, no? (if it's just shares— why have it in-chain?)
1578 2013-09-16 20:37:07 <nanotube> nkuttler: there was testnet-in-a-box to easily make a private chain.
1579 2013-09-16 20:37:09 <TD> he's mentioned his family many times when i've seen him speak
1580 2013-09-16 20:37:27 <jgarzik> That was the original pybond idea…  create a protocol where third parties may prove and exchange shares/bonds without central authority intervention
1581 2013-09-16 20:37:29 <_ingsoc> Well, I remember reading that he said you can expect to make a profit if you buy Mastercoins.
1582 2013-09-16 20:37:30 <edcba> url about that mastercoin guy/idea ?
1583 2013-09-16 20:37:42 <Krellan_> bfgminer question: anybody else use Erupters and have, every so often, a device go into ERR state?  It happens for me about once every 100 device-days.
1584 2013-09-16 20:37:47 <edcba> visa/mastercoins ?
1585 2013-09-16 20:37:51 <nkuttler> nanotube: nice, thanks
1586 2013-09-16 20:37:57 <Cusipzzz> _ingsoc: yes, how else to get early investors? that was his pitch
1587 2013-09-16 20:38:08 <_ingsoc> You can't just sell investment like that.
1588 2013-09-16 20:38:10 <nkuttler> looks perfect, actually
1589 2013-09-16 20:38:15 <_ingsoc> Assuming he's in the US.
1590 2013-09-16 20:38:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and to think, you've missed out on $600k
1591 2013-09-16 20:38:40 <nanotube> nkuttler: np, hf :)
1592 2013-09-16 20:38:46 <gmaxwell> TD: in any case, I just feel bad about the whole thing. This can't end well for anyone.
1593 2013-09-16 20:38:56 <Cusipzzz> _ingsoc: tell that to every other btc stock/securities exchange too
1594 2013-09-16 20:38:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I think there is an additional layer of bootstrapping long term:  mastercoins, a fixed in-chain asset, may be pretended to be representative of a real-world asset, and traded against as such.  just Define Your Protocol, and you have in-chain gold/usd trading.
1595 2013-09-16 20:39:20 <jgarzik> I haven't read that paper, but that was what I gleaned from hallway conversations
1596 2013-09-16 20:39:21 <kjj> if I had to guess, I'd say he probably violated a half dozen federal laws.  hard to say which ones though.
1597 2013-09-16 20:39:43 <TD> indeed....
1598 2013-09-16 20:39:47 <_ingsoc> True.
1599 2013-09-16 20:40:05 <_ingsoc> SEC will have a field day if people complain.
1600 2013-09-16 20:40:11 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: but e.g. someone has to hold the gold. And that person could also store the ledger. (and perhaps commit to hashes of it in bitcoin to prove they aren't cooking the books). I still don't see what point cramming nonbitcoin data in the blockchain achieves for most of these ideas.
1601 2013-09-16 20:41:16 <kjj> someone needs to take my securities coin altcoin and run with it
1602 2013-09-16 20:41:29 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, [WARNING: not my theory or position]  no one needs to actually hold gold, if everyone agrees by protocol that <these> mastercoins represent all the gold in the world.
1603 2013-09-16 20:41:38 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: ah okay. Gotcha.
1604 2013-09-16 20:41:40 <jgarzik> or USD
1605 2013-09-16 20:42:07 <jgarzik> thus you can trade versus this stuff, by doing atomic bitcoin swaps
1606 2013-09-16 20:43:00 <sipa> but these aren't "normal" colored coins, if mastercoins aren't 1:1 tied to bitcoin amounts
1607 2013-09-16 20:43:02 <kjj> note that for that scheme to work, the "everyone" that agrees has to include governments, courts, etc.  it really does mean everyone
1608 2013-09-16 20:43:27 <gmaxwell> kjj: only the everyone you want to trade with and everyone they want to trade with and so on. :P
1609 2013-09-16 20:44:02 <edcba> that mastercoin assumptions are flawed imo
1610 2013-09-16 20:44:18 <jgarzik> RE LEAs and laws broken…  I think he will get in trouble only if he failed to warn about risk, promised no-risk returns, etc.  I cannot speak to specific laws, but the agencies tend to most energentically pursue cases like Pirate where the unrealistic claims were easy to find, and damage to investors easy to prove.
1611 2013-09-16 20:45:10 <TD> the original idea of smart property was that the thing you were trading would itself understand a part of the bitcoin protocol
1612 2013-09-16 20:45:12 <jgarzik> kjj, everyone controlling keys involved in mastercoin trades, yes
1613 2013-09-16 20:45:17 <TD> it was never meant to be for arbitrary objects
1614 2013-09-16 20:45:19 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1615 2013-09-16 20:45:22 <_ingsoc> jgarzik: Good point.
1616 2013-09-16 20:45:31 <jurov> hi all, signatures produced by blockchain.info should work in bitcoin-qt, yes?
1617 2013-09-16 20:45:41 <jgarzik> kjj, same colored coin rule:  everyone must follow the unspoken rules, otherwise the rules .. are not followed and the coins become regular ole coins.
1618 2013-09-16 20:46:26 <kjj> jgarzik: if the courts don't agree, there are problems
1619 2013-09-16 20:46:40 <jgarzik> kjj, in the end, math laws trump human laws ;p
1620 2013-09-16 20:46:58 <jgarzik> He Who Controls The Spice Controls The Universe.
1621 2013-09-16 20:46:59 <kjj> math can't send you to prison (directly)
1622 2013-09-16 20:47:04 <TD> i think the NSA has spent the last 10 years disproving that theory :(
1623 2013-09-16 20:47:21 <jgarzik> math laws still work, NSA just knows we all write shitty software
1624 2013-09-16 20:47:23 <gmaxwell> TD: even the smart property idea can generally be done without colored coins: E.g. I have a smart care. I tell the car. I'm going to sell you to bob with key 1aaaa, when you see a payment the 1bbbb the sale is complete.   And later bob shows up presenting spv proof of payment.  (I know it's not a 1:1 match on your protocol, I'm just pointing out that people fixate a bit much on "colored coins")
1625 2013-09-16 20:47:54 <TD> right
1626 2013-09-16 20:47:55 <jgarzik> jurov, there have been bugs in the past
1627 2013-09-16 20:48:02 <gmaxwell> ohh.. "He Who Controls The Spice Controls The Universe." oh god, I'm now imagining all kinds of dune reference for bitcoin.
1628 2013-09-16 20:48:04 <jgarzik> jurov, where blockchain.info did not produce 100% proper signatures
1629 2013-09-16 20:48:07 <kjj> you and I can agree to split all of the gold in the world between ourselves, and we can conduct trade on that model, but the first disagreement that requires outside intervention breaks the whole thing down
1630 2013-09-16 20:48:43 <jgarzik> kjj, it's just software rules people collectively follow or not, just like bitcoin itself.
1631 2013-09-16 20:48:58 <jgarzik> kjj, a judge could order me to make my node behave differently
1632 2013-09-16 20:49:37 <jurov> jgarzik: the sig was produced today.
1633 2013-09-16 20:49:39 <kjj> bitcoin only works when the bitcoins aren't references to atoms
1634 2013-09-16 20:49:42 <jgarzik> jurov, probably ok
1635 2013-09-16 20:50:41 <gmaxwell> kjj: well, the principles of good contract law adjudication would really demand any ruling be based on our understanding. If our contract was that these pogs represent all the gold, then thats really how our contracts should be decided. At least with a spherical cow view of the law.
1636 2013-09-16 20:50:53 <jurov> not ok. i do have a text and signature that verifies in blockchain.info and not in bitcoin-qt
1637 2013-09-16 20:51:21 <jurov> the text is mildly sensitive, don't want to publish it on bugtracker
1638 2013-09-16 20:51:30 <gmaxwell> jurov: then reproduce with non-senstive text.
1639 2013-09-16 20:51:31 bd_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1640 2013-09-16 20:51:33 <kjj> gmaxwell: which is how we got back to including courts in the set of "everyone"
1641 2013-09-16 20:51:40 <gmaxwell> Does bc.i even have a bugtracker?
1642 2013-09-16 20:51:49 bd_ has joined
1643 2013-09-16 20:51:56 <TD> it has a github project
1644 2013-09-16 20:52:01 <TD> therefore, i guess it must do
1645 2013-09-16 20:52:04 <jgarzik> function profit() { make_promises(); collect_preorders(); sleep(1 year); refund_based_on_USD_value(); return profit; }
1646 2013-09-16 20:52:23 <_ingsoc> Hah.
1647 2013-09-16 20:52:26 <Cusipzzz> jgarzik: ++
1648 2013-09-16 20:52:29 <gmaxwell> thats more than three steps.
1649 2013-09-16 20:52:30 <kjj> bug in your code.  do NOT return profit
1650 2013-09-16 20:52:49 <TD> kjj++
1651 2013-09-16 20:53:04 <gmaxwell> hahahahahhaha
1652 2013-09-16 20:53:25 <gmaxwell> "this line appears to have a profit leak"
1653 2013-09-16 20:53:33 <kjj> gotta run
1654 2013-09-16 20:53:36 <_ingsoc> xD
1655 2013-09-16 20:53:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: well, duhh... it returns profit!
1656 2013-09-16 20:54:01 <imsaguy> Aww, be nice to the shovel shop.  They're clearly doing something right as they've made a hell of a lot more profit than any of us.
1657 2013-09-16 20:54:16 Keefe has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1658 2013-09-16 20:54:30 <phantomcircuit> is there anyway to make regtest mine at diff=1 indefinitely
1659 2013-09-16 20:54:36 <edcba> of course refund_based_on_USD_value() may throw an exception :p
1660 2013-09-16 20:54:44 <phantomcircuit> like a lovely cli argument?
1661 2013-09-16 20:54:50 <phantomcircuit> or do i need to hack at stuff
1662 2013-09-16 20:55:11 <TD> indefinitely?
1663 2013-09-16 20:55:33 <TD> while true; do ./bitcoind -regtest setgenerate true; usleep $[ 300 * 1000 ]; done
1664 2013-09-16 20:55:35 <TD> ugly but it should work
1665 2013-09-16 20:55:40 <edcba> *Master*Coin depending on BitCoin
1666 2013-09-16 20:55:46 <phantomcircuit> TD, difficulty increases on regtest
1667 2013-09-16 20:55:55 <TD> oh, i see
1668 2013-09-16 20:56:05 <TD> no you'd need to hack the code for that
1669 2013-09-16 20:56:34 normanrichards has joined
1670 2013-09-16 20:56:56 paybitcoin1 has joined
1671 2013-09-16 20:57:05 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, what's the license for https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/python-base58 ?
1672 2013-09-16 20:57:19 <edcba> ok anyway mastercoin won't succeed because miners have already a lot of bitcoins and those are the ones receiving tx fees necessary for mastercoin to work
1673 2013-09-16 20:57:40 <edcba> so at best it is a slavecoin :)
1674 2013-09-16 20:57:46 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1675 2013-09-16 20:58:06 _ingsoc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1676 2013-09-16 20:58:17 <phantomcircuit> oh wait python-bitcoinlib has one
1677 2013-09-16 20:58:18 <phantomcircuit> nvm
1678 2013-09-16 20:58:22 <dooglus> in bitcoin-qt I can see unconfirmed transactions destined for my wallet and get their txid.  is there some way to do the same from the bitcoind command line?
1679 2013-09-16 20:58:39 <jouke> listtransactions
1680 2013-09-16 20:58:40 <gmaxwell> uhhh.. "listtransactions"
1681 2013-09-16 20:58:41 <Cusipzzz> dooglus: listtransactions
1682 2013-09-16 20:59:36 <jouke> dooglus: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list
1683 2013-09-16 21:00:20 _ingsoc has joined
1684 2013-09-16 21:00:29 <dooglus> ty
1685 2013-09-16 21:02:09 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
1686 2013-09-16 21:03:37 ticean has joined
1687 2013-09-16 21:05:11 paybitcoin has joined
1688 2013-09-16 21:05:22 <sipa> TD: the hardcoded bootstrap peer IPs are 9 months old, btw
1689 2013-09-16 21:05:30 <sipa> not even a year!
1690 2013-09-16 21:05:37 <jgarzik> SWIFT CEO: "I would not see why we at Swift could not send transactions in #bitcoin as a currency"
1691 2013-09-16 21:05:38 <TD> you win!
1692 2013-09-16 21:05:40 <jgarzik> …but why?
1693 2013-09-16 21:05:44 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1694 2013-09-16 21:05:47 <jgarzik> still, it's cool.
1695 2013-09-16 21:05:54 <sipa> i'd say why not?
1696 2013-09-16 21:06:03 <TD> SWIFT is cool. i was approached nearly two years ago by their director of innovation (or some similar title)
1697 2013-09-16 21:06:08 <TD> they were rather ahead of the curve back then
1698 2013-09-16 21:06:16 Anduckkk has joined
1699 2013-09-16 21:06:47 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1700 2013-09-16 21:06:53 <jgarzik> Certainly more avenues to transit bitcoins besides the P2P network are good, but I cannot see many current users choosing that route.
1701 2013-09-16 21:07:20 <TD> SWIFT doesn't "do" users. they are for banks. banks already have lots of experience plugging into SWIFT
1702 2013-09-16 21:07:26 <sipa> but maybe many non-current users?
1703 2013-09-16 21:07:32 <jgarzik> nod
1704 2013-09-16 21:07:43 <TD> it'd be easier for them to make a small extension to their current codebase to put BTC into a SWIFT message field than bring up P2P connections from inside their datacenters
1705 2013-09-16 21:07:59 _________ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1706 2013-09-16 21:08:06 <TD> heck it'd be a pain in the ass to bring up bitcoin nodes inside Google datacenters so I can't even imagine the bureaucratic nightmare it'd be to do it at a bank
1707 2013-09-16 21:08:41 <edcba> so nsa really made bitcoin ? :)
1708 2013-09-16 21:08:53 <TD> although given that SWIFT basically routes IOUs, i'm not sure how it'd actually work.
1709 2013-09-16 21:09:08 <phantomcircuit> TD, the vast majority of banks dont run their own operations
1710 2013-09-16 21:09:17 <phantomcircuit> it's nearly all outsourced to india
1711 2013-09-16 21:09:27 <phantomcircuit> sooo maybe not as hard as youd think
1712 2013-09-16 21:09:30 sserrano44 has joined
1713 2013-09-16 21:09:32 <Cusipzzz> TD: swift is too limited, build it into FIX and we'd have something nearly all use
1714 2013-09-16 21:09:37 Guest48497 has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
1715 2013-09-16 21:09:55 <jgarzik> those routed IOUs could be… bitcoin transactions
1716 2013-09-16 21:09:59 <phantomcircuit> Cusipzzz, implementing the entire FIX protocol would be a monumental undertaking
1717 2013-09-16 21:10:02 <phantomcircuit> it's hugely confusing
1718 2013-09-16 21:10:09 <TD> i've heard funny things about SWIFT. there's no technical specification for how it works. a SWIFT message is "whatever the union of what SWIFT parsers accept"
1719 2013-09-16 21:10:10 <warren> or ripple!
1720 2013-09-16 21:10:19 <TD> not so different to us, in a way :)
1721 2013-09-16 21:10:28 coeus has joined
1722 2013-09-16 21:10:32 <edcba> TD: at least the spec is implemented correctly by clients :)
1723 2013-09-16 21:10:36 <phantomcircuit> TD, yeah which leads to all sorts of fun weird messages
1724 2013-09-16 21:10:43 <phantomcircuit> edcba, ahahahahahahah
1725 2013-09-16 21:10:58 * TD has no direct knowledge of what SWIFT protocol looks like
1726 2013-09-16 21:11:02 * TD imagines something DER based
1727 2013-09-16 21:11:02 <phantomcircuit> ever had a wire transfer just go missing?
1728 2013-09-16 21:11:12 <phantomcircuit> hint hint
1729 2013-09-16 21:11:16 <Cusipzzz> phantomcircuit: FIX still carries the majority of order routing and insternal trading messaging, and there are a lot of TAG #s we could hijack
1730 2013-09-16 21:11:29 <edcba> phantomcircuit: wiretaps ! nsa did it ! :)
1731 2013-09-16 21:11:35 <phantomcircuit> Cusipzzz, ugh, but it's horrible
1732 2013-09-16 21:11:43 <phantomcircuit> it's only used widely because it's used widely
1733 2013-09-16 21:11:49 <Cusipzzz> indeed
1734 2013-09-16 21:11:50 <phantomcircuit> it's a terrible slow text format too
1735 2013-09-16 21:11:59 * TD shrugs
1736 2013-09-16 21:12:10 <TD> basically all successful systems have the property of being horrible and only used because it's widely used
1737 2013-09-16 21:12:12 <Cusipzzz> but everyone has agreed on it, so it's something.
1738 2013-09-16 21:12:12 <TD> that's progress
1739 2013-09-16 21:12:27 <warren> is ACH based on IOU's too?
1740 2013-09-16 21:12:31 <phantomcircuit> Cusipzzz, it's amazing that nobody has bothered to replace it with something faster given all the people going crazy about the length of their ethernet cord
1741 2013-09-16 21:12:41 <TD> phantomcircuit: given the bitcoin communities preference for JSON, we're in no position to talk about that :)
1742 2013-09-16 21:12:58 <TD> you know. the standard that represents every single number as a float
1743 2013-09-16 21:13:17 <phantomcircuit> TD, well technically json doesn't even have a concept of a float
1744 2013-09-16 21:13:24 <phantomcircuit> the actual spec makes total sense there
1745 2013-09-16 21:13:29 <TD> warren: to some extent all inter-bank messaging is. at some point trucks of cash wander around and rebalance things.
1746 2013-09-16 21:13:31 <phantomcircuit> 99% of the implementations however....
1747 2013-09-16 21:13:53 <phantomcircuit> warren, ACH is only vaguely IOU based
1748 2013-09-16 21:13:54 <Cusipzzz> phantomcircuit: people have replaced it internally, but you need too many players to agree to change anything for dealing with counterparties
1749 2013-09-16 21:14:20 <phantomcircuit> warren, it would be fairly uncommon for a bank to be out of balance with another bank by an amount in excess of their deposits with the federal reserve
1750 2013-09-16 21:14:37 <warren> Allegedly the local banks here all intentionally filter out ACH metadata for anticompetitive reasons, so the state government dumped them all and uses an out-of-state bank for all services.
1751 2013-09-16 21:14:52 <warren> "here" being a state thousands of miles away from other states
1752 2013-09-16 21:15:31 <phantomcircuit> i honestly have no idea how that would gain them an advantage
1753 2013-09-16 21:15:39 <warren> long story
1754 2013-09-16 21:15:54 <phantomcircuit> something something remittance payments
1755 2013-09-16 21:16:30 paraipan has joined
1756 2013-09-16 21:17:46 <warren> something something tax payments to government
1757 2013-09-16 21:18:15 <TD> "filter out ACH metadata for anticompetitive reasons"?
1758 2013-09-16 21:18:22 djcoin has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
1759 2013-09-16 21:18:23 <TD> huh
1760 2013-09-16 21:18:41 <TD> i never understood why so many banks seem to suck at handling large volumes of wire transfers
1761 2013-09-16 21:18:53 <TD> surely lots of businesses must do thousands or tens of thousands of bank wires each day
1762 2013-09-16 21:19:07 <jgarzik> opportunity for bitcoin++
1763 2013-09-16 21:19:19 <jgarzik> sometimes it's easier to reinvent and route around
1764 2013-09-16 21:19:21 AusBitBank has joined
1765 2013-09-16 21:19:44 <TD> i have a friend/ex colleague who used to work at abn amro
1766 2013-09-16 21:19:47 <Cusipzzz> wires are a pain, even large brokerage firms only do maybe hundreds a day
1767 2013-09-16 21:19:48 <phantomcircuit> TD, that is a fairly common mistake
1768 2013-09-16 21:19:50 <TD> he has some amazing stories
1769 2013-09-16 21:20:04 <phantomcircuit> TD, the vast majority of banks dont do hardly any international wires
1770 2013-09-16 21:20:10 <osmosis> I thought he meant Swift would speed up their currency transfer network by using the bitcoin network to send value and convert it at the end points.
1771 2013-09-16 21:20:12 Sarah has joined
1772 2013-09-16 21:20:20 sacrelege has joined
1773 2013-09-16 21:20:22 <osmosis> swift network has 20 million transactions per day
1774 2013-09-16 21:20:27 <jgarzik> osmosis, would be nice...
1775 2013-09-16 21:20:36 Sarah is now known as Guest41911
1776 2013-09-16 21:20:42 <jgarzik> IMNSHO, bitcoin as a transfer network across borders is a distinct end-state possibility
1777 2013-09-16 21:20:45 <phantomcircuit> osmosis, no he means they're thinking of putting a 'BTC' field next to the 'USD' field and 'EUR' fields
1778 2013-09-16 21:21:16 <osmosis> phantomcircuit, maybe like when AOL first started supporting outside email?
1779 2013-09-16 21:21:23 <jgarzik> convert fiat A -> bitcoin, transfer across border, convert bitcoin -> fiat B
1780 2013-09-16 21:21:29 <jgarzik> banks should love that
1781 2013-09-16 21:21:42 <phantomcircuit> TD, for example, mtgox wire transfers almost certainly were in excess of 10% of all international wires in japan
1782 2013-09-16 21:21:43 <jgarzik> provided they don't make a million-dollar irreversible screw-up
1783 2013-09-16 21:21:46 <phantomcircuit> (probably not anymore)
1784 2013-09-16 21:22:08 <TD> well, moving money between countries doesn't literally move the money. if you want to send euros to the usa and have them be converted into dollars, it's really just dollar accounts on the us side that get adjusted and euro accounts on  the eu side
1785 2013-09-16 21:22:17 DBordello has quit (Excess Flood)
1786 2013-09-16 21:22:23 <phantomcircuit> EU banks are special in that they can handle significant transaction volume before collapsing in on themselves
1787 2013-09-16 21:22:38 DBordello has joined
1788 2013-09-16 21:22:38 DBordello has quit (Excess Flood)
1789 2013-09-16 21:22:40 <TD> phantomcircuit: right. they did claim that they were most of their banks wire transfers at one point.
1790 2013-09-16 21:22:47 <jgarzik> TD, nod.  it's a different value exchange model, certainly.
1791 2013-09-16 21:22:53 <TD> i'm still fuzzy on why exactly it is bothersome for a bank. a wire transfer is "just" a SWIFT message, riht
1792 2013-09-16 21:22:58 DBordello has joined
1793 2013-09-16 21:22:59 <TD> i know some US banks aren't actually on SWIFT
1794 2013-09-16 21:23:04 <phantomcircuit> TD, i actually believe they were likely more like 25% of all the international wires in japan
1795 2013-09-16 21:23:07 <TD> because it's expensive etc etc
1796 2013-09-16 21:23:31 <phantomcircuit> TD, there is quite often a large amount of manual processing for wires
1797 2013-09-16 21:23:41 <TD> …. like what? they have a standard form
1798 2013-09-16 21:23:57 <phantomcircuit> TD, well for japan to start with character set conversion
1799 2013-09-16 21:24:02 * jgarzik is surprised MtGox has not increased minimum trade sizes
1800 2013-09-16 21:24:11 <phantomcircuit> which is almost certainly some guy sitting there retyping them
1801 2013-09-16 21:24:13 <Cusipzzz> someone has to key it in, and review/approvals depending on the amounts
1802 2013-09-16 21:24:13 <jgarzik> It's pointless bloat to permit buying $1 worth of bitcoins
1803 2013-09-16 21:24:22 <osmosis> how does swift move the actual value?  Is there a master ledger?
1804 2013-09-16 21:24:22 c0rw1n has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1805 2013-09-16 21:24:43 <jgarzik> osmosis, see what TD wrote "moving money between countries"
1806 2013-09-16 21:24:43 <phantomcircuit> TD, then there is likely manual review to prevent errors
1807 2013-09-16 21:24:56 c0rw1n has joined
1808 2013-09-16 21:25:04 <phantomcircuit> TD, on top of that there is almost certainly someone manually reviewing transfers flagged as suspicious
1809 2013-09-16 21:25:11 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I don't get why they don't make their feestructure some constant plus %
1810 2013-09-16 21:25:13 <phantomcircuit> which for a bitcoin exchange you can expect is 100% of transfers
1811 2013-09-16 21:25:15 ahmedbodi has joined
1812 2013-09-16 21:25:15 <jgarzik> bitcoin is interesting as it could potentially change the way value is transferred between banks.
1813 2013-09-16 21:25:30 freaksh0 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1814 2013-09-16 21:25:33 <gmaxwell> e.g. 0.001 BTC + %
1815 2013-09-16 21:25:54 <TD> why would character set conversion require retyping?
1816 2013-09-16 21:25:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, because it's economically irrational to do so as long as the smaller internal transactions aren't causing larger orders to stall
1817 2013-09-16 21:25:59 <ahmedbodi> hi guys. i know this is the bitcoin channel, but its sorta my last option so anyhow, does anyone know if there is a verion of devcoin which supports gbt?
1818 2013-09-16 21:26:04 <TD> manual review i can understand but automatable stuff ?
1819 2013-09-16 21:26:34 patcon has joined
1820 2013-09-16 21:26:45 <phantomcircuit> TD, it's not really character set conversion, it's taking a larger character set and translating to a compressed one
1821 2013-09-16 21:27:02 <phantomcircuit> TD, so there's someone effectively translating from one written form of japanese to another
1822 2013-09-16 21:27:04 <jgarzik> ahmedbodi, saying "I know it's off-topic and bothersome to say X, but, X" doesn't make it any better ;p  No, that's off-topic, we don't know.
1823 2013-09-16 21:27:04 <gmaxwell> ahmedbodi: pratically all of the altcoins except for litecoin are on horribly, unmaintably old and exploitable codebases. Fixing them would likely break them as some of the fixes require network coordinated changes.
1824 2013-09-16 21:27:04 <phantomcircuit> for every wire
1825 2013-09-16 21:27:34 <Cusipzzz> TD: most of these systems are ancient and people are afraid to touch them. i know a major bank that still uses manual ibm 3270 sessions to a clearing firm for wires
1826 2013-09-16 21:27:39 <ahmedbodi> i know jgarzik somethings cant be helped i guess :P
1827 2013-09-16 21:27:45 <jgarzik> for MtGox I would just make the minimum xfer size $10k, until the backlog clears
1828 2013-09-16 21:27:46 <phantomcircuit> Cusipzzz, lol sounds about right
1829 2013-09-16 21:28:05 <ahmedbodi> gmaxwell: thanks for the info, its appreciated.
1830 2013-09-16 21:28:16 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, iirc they're already prioritizing larger transfers
1831 2013-09-16 21:28:34 <phantomcircuit> it would be useful if they made it easier for people to consolidate transfers though
1832 2013-09-16 21:28:46 <ahmedbodi> ^bte you can add bytecoin to the list of coins on the latest code base :D
1833 2013-09-16 21:28:46 <phantomcircuit> (as it stands to cancel a withdrawal requires a support ticket)
1834 2013-09-16 21:28:58 <TD> i wonder at what point it gets worth having a dedicated swift connection
1835 2013-09-16 21:29:29 <phantomcircuit> TD, the point that you're sending wires and want a guess about how the wire will be sent
1836 2013-09-16 21:29:31 <phantomcircuit> or you're a bank
1837 2013-09-16 21:29:51 <phantomcircuit> (also it's really just a guess since SWIFT doesn't know about private deals between banks)
1838 2013-09-16 21:30:01 <phantomcircuit> oh right that's the other thing
1839 2013-09-16 21:30:07 <phantomcircuit> not all international wires go through SWIFT
1840 2013-09-16 21:30:27 <phantomcircuit> larger banks have deals to directly route wires
1841 2013-09-16 21:30:39 <phantomcircuit> fun
1842 2013-09-16 21:30:43 <TD> yeah i heard about that
1843 2013-09-16 21:32:18 <TD> it's sort of like a microcosm of the internet itself
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1858 2013-09-16 21:41:15 <gmaxwell> Iddo has a protocol proposed on the forum that gives you a fair cointoss. E.g. Alice and bob both put up 1 BTC, and one of them walks away with 2.
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1863 2013-09-16 21:48:02 <sipa> ha, cool
1864 2013-09-16 21:48:34 <rdymac> gmaxwell is that the if both don't agree then the 2 BTC explode?
1865 2013-09-16 21:50:54 <Cusipzzz> spamcity!
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1867 2013-09-16 21:51:32 <phantomcircuit> lol
1868 2013-09-16 21:51:38 <phantomcircuit> getblocktemplate doesn't work with regtest
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1870 2013-09-16 21:51:41 <phantomcircuit> :/
1871 2013-09-16 21:51:43 <gmaxwell> rdymac: someone walks away with the pie. The idea is that the trade is setup so that if they cheat in the protocol the other person gets it all plus a bonus.
1872 2013-09-16 21:54:07 <phantomcircuit> obviously on regtest vNodes is always empty
1873 2013-09-16 21:56:50 <TD> gmaxwell: it relies on tx replacement, it seems? at least it makes reference to broadcasting timelocked transactions
1874 2013-09-16 21:57:03 <TD> phantomcircuit: you can run two of them and make them connect.
1875 2013-09-16 21:57:19 <rdymac> I like this idea, the other I was told long ago scares me. I see lots of scammers willing to lose a few coins just to fuck users that only owns a few coins
1876 2013-09-16 21:58:20 <rdymac> I think is this http://nashx.com/HowItWorks
1877 2013-09-16 21:58:22 <sipa> TD: do you have have idea why getheaders's response includes the hash referenced in the request, while getblocks stops before it?
1878 2013-09-16 21:58:37 <TD> from bitcoind?
1879 2013-09-16 21:58:41 <sipa> yes
1880 2013-09-16 21:58:47 <sipa> it seems an off-by-one error, that got codified in the p2p protocol rules
1881 2013-09-16 21:59:32 <sipa> if you ask for "from block X to block Y", getblocks gives you everything from X up to but excluding Y, while getheaders gives it to you including Y
1882 2013-09-16 21:59:33 <gmaxwell> TD: Nah, I don't think it relies on replacement. I gave another spin on basically the same idea in the thread below (after missing half his post I went and reinvented it)
1883 2013-09-16 21:59:35 Guest____ has joined
1884 2013-09-16 22:00:00 <sipa> TD: hmm, maybe the reasoning was that since you only know the hash, you don't necessarily know the header
1885 2013-09-16 22:00:13 <sipa> while for getdata you obviously already know what you'd get if it were included
1886 2013-09-16 22:00:40 <TD> no clue. it's impossible to tell with satoshi whether something was just the way he wrote it, or if there was a solid reasoning
1887 2013-09-16 22:00:45 <gmaxwell> TD: basically the idea is that you use a txn that pays the bet based on some hash preimages. ... and you prevent the parties from failing to disclose their preimage when they know they'll lose by making there be some unrelated funds that require disclosing them or (after a locktime) the funds go to the other party.
1888 2013-09-16 22:01:01 <TD> yeah i'm reading it now
1889 2013-09-16 22:01:13 <sipa> TD: anyone, you're using getheaders in bitcoinj, right?
1890 2013-09-16 22:01:19 <TD> yes
1891 2013-09-16 22:01:43 <sipa> do you rely on that behaviour? :)
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1893 2013-09-16 22:02:04 <sipa> because it basically means a duplicate header in every request for me
1894 2013-09-16 22:02:09 <TD> no. bitcoinj always downloads more headers than it needs
1895 2013-09-16 22:02:32 <TD> essentially it tries to download headers until a particular "fast catchup time", which is basically now - some window that i forgot
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1897 2013-09-16 22:02:47 <TD> it reads headers until it sees one with a timestamp beyond that, and then switches to full block downloading from that point on
1898 2013-09-16 22:02:52 <sipa> ic
1899 2013-09-16 22:03:06 <TD> (and throws the rest away)
1900 2013-09-16 22:03:15 <sipa> i wonder if there are any other getheaders users
1901 2013-09-16 22:03:21 <TD> doubt it
1902 2013-09-16 22:03:37 <TD> everyone seems to love building script interpreters and full node implementations, only me cares about spv mode it seems :(
1903 2013-09-16 22:03:49 <sipa> haha
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1905 2013-09-16 22:04:02 <gmaxwell> TD: more centeralized services than all those other things combined and squared.. at least they're easy to update. :P
1906 2013-09-16 22:04:11 <TD> heh
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1908 2013-09-16 22:04:54 <TD> i always found it faintly absurd how google loves to preach about "the cloud" when what we really mean is "centralised apps from a single vendor running in giant industrial facilities, the details of which are closely guarded secrets"
1909 2013-09-16 22:05:03 <TD> it's pretty much the least cloudlike thing i can imagine
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1911 2013-09-16 22:05:14 <TD> clouds are white and puffy and natural and everywhere
1912 2013-09-16 22:05:24 <TD> any everyone can have as many as they want, just by going to england
1913 2013-09-16 22:05:32 <sipa> do you know of any 'cloud' that is actually decentralized?
1914 2013-09-16 22:05:46 <TD> as far as i know, decentralised cloud is an oxymoron :)
1915 2013-09-16 22:06:06 <TD> unless you count such venerable service as, say, irc
1916 2013-09-16 22:06:12 <sipa> meh
1917 2013-09-16 22:07:25 <TD> which of course, suffers rather badly from being hard to update ....
1918 2013-09-16 22:07:38 <TD> anyway
1919 2013-09-16 22:07:40 * TD -> sleep
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1933 2013-09-16 22:27:52 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: whatever Gavin says - I think pubdomain
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1936 2013-09-16 22:30:01 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, what does Staged work underrun even mean when using stratum?
1937 2013-09-16 22:30:19 <phantomcircuit> is it just a race condition between the first mining.notify and the worker threads starting?
1938 2013-09-16 22:30:20 johnsoft has joined
1939 2013-09-16 22:30:25 <phantomcircuit> (yeah cpu mining)
1940 2013-09-16 22:30:45 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: it means the threads requesting work outran the thread generating it
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1942 2013-09-16 22:31:04 <Luke-Jr> which isn't too surprising CPU mining, since the ones requesting it are slowing down the one generating it :P
1943 2013-09-16 22:31:30 <phantomcircuit> right
1944 2013-09-16 22:31:53 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, what sort of checks (if any) does bfgminer do on the parameters from mining.notify?
1945 2013-09-16 22:32:12 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: which aspect?
1946 2013-09-16 22:32:42 <phantomcircuit> like you could check that the coinbase generated from the two parts is valid
1947 2013-09-16 22:33:24 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, also is nbits in stratum the same format as nbits returned by getblocktemplate() rpc call
1948 2013-09-16 22:33:29 <Luke-Jr> the only explicit check made is that the number of merkle links matches the response from mining.get_transactions
1949 2013-09-16 22:33:31 <phantomcircuit> or is the endianness reversed?
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1951 2013-09-16 22:33:53 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: look and see? <.<
1952 2013-09-16 22:34:12 <phantomcircuit> heh
1953 2013-09-16 22:34:20 <phantomcircuit> i was hoping you'd know off the top of your head :)
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1971 2013-09-16 23:03:02 <gavinandresen> Happy Tuesday everybody. For those of you still in Monday, you'll be happy to know Tuesday is bright and sunny.
1972 2013-09-16 23:03:28 <TheLordOfTime> gavinandresen: at which location in the world?  :P
1973 2013-09-16 23:03:30 <sipa> gavinandresen: tuesday is dark and rainy here :(
1974 2013-09-16 23:03:44 <gavinandresen> TheLordOfTime: Mission Beach, QLD, Australia
1975 2013-09-16 23:04:13 <sipa> though i have it on good authority that the darky part will pass
1976 2013-09-16 23:04:18 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is so high tech we needed to send gavin into the future to keep up with it.
1977 2013-09-16 23:04:27 <TheLordOfTime> heh
1978 2013-09-16 23:05:08 <gavinandresen> The Future is a wonderful place: http://cassowarytales.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/sailin.html
1979 2013-09-16 23:08:14 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, ha
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1994 2013-09-16 23:25:42 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, prevhash, version, nbits, ntime, are all big endian
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1996 2013-09-16 23:25:50 <phantomcircuit> but in the block header they're all little endian
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1998 2013-09-16 23:26:07 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: ?
1999 2013-09-16 23:26:10 <phantomcircuit> actually prevhash is big endian
2000 2013-09-16 23:26:13 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, stratum
2001 2013-09-16 23:26:19 <petertodd> ah
2002 2013-09-16 23:26:19 <phantomcircuit> a lovely protocol
2003 2013-09-16 23:26:22 <phantomcircuit> >.>
2004 2013-09-16 23:26:32 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: is it really? :>
2005 2013-09-16 23:26:40 <phantomcircuit> because clearly things that are json encoded in hex need to be big endian
2006 2013-09-16 23:27:07 <Belxjander> NetworkByteOrder ?
2007 2013-09-16 23:28:01 mrkent has joined
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2009 2013-09-16 23:28:17 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I think ntime is actually little endian there. And big endian at the same time.
2010 2013-09-16 23:28:59 <gavinandresen> I something think we need an #IneedToGripAboutBitcoinEndianMadness IRC channel.
2011 2013-09-16 23:29:02 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: it's because Bitcoin actually flips the byte order before hashing
2012 2013-09-16 23:29:36 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: heh
2013 2013-09-16 23:30:12 <petertodd> I want to see an alt coin "fix" all the endiannes and confuse everyone even further...
2014 2013-09-16 23:30:29 sserrano44 has joined
2015 2013-09-16 23:30:30 <ahmedbodi> lmao thats a pain^
2016 2013-09-16 23:32:08 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: how about an altcoin that accepts any endian? :P
2017 2013-09-16 23:32:32 <sipa> xinucoin
2018 2013-09-16 23:32:42 <Belxjander> GavinAnderson: why give a crap?
2019 2013-09-16 23:33:19 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: heh, my favorite strange transaction was a follow-up to the "provide the genesis block hash" puzzle - the first puzzle's creator must have screwed up, and got the endianness wrong the first time, whereas this more recent one just had a if else endif that let you select which one...
2020 2013-09-16 23:34:46 <petertodd> sipa: IEEE 754 floating-point coin, also known as javascript-coin
2021 2013-09-16 23:34:51 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, everything in the blockheader is little endian and everything in stratum is big endian, except prevhash/merkle root aren't switched
2022 2013-09-16 23:35:00 <phantomcircuit> which only vaguely makes sense
2023 2013-09-16 23:35:13 <phantomcircuit> and then there's the question of whether nonce is swapped also
2024 2013-09-16 23:35:16 <phantomcircuit> im going to guess yes
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2026 2013-09-16 23:35:31 <phantomcircuit> and then all the bitcoin rpc stuff is also swapped
2027 2013-09-16 23:35:32 <gmaxwell> Really if you're complaining about byteorder it shows that the protocol is otherwise perfect... because byteorder is like the smallest possible pain.
2028 2013-09-16 23:35:57 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: stratum is trying to prepare a midstate for x86; the block header is itself little endian, but it is hashed as big endian, causing a flip
2029 2013-09-16 23:35:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, this wouldn't be that bad... if it was documented at all
2030 2013-09-16 23:36:04 <phantomcircuit> at the moment im pretty much 100% guessing
2031 2013-09-16 23:36:15 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: so go document it....
2032 2013-09-16 23:36:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I disagree byte order is so trivial, in this particular case.
2033 2013-09-16 23:36:24 <Luke-Jr> it's hard to even explain what's going on :/
2034 2013-09-16 23:36:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: just grab a correct example and compare it.
2035 2013-09-16 23:36:55 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: it is not documented because the eleven people who were here before bitching about it eventually figured it out and then didn't bother documenting it.
2036 2013-09-16 23:36:56 <petertodd> meh, go complain about how the merkle tree doesn't extend into transactions, or how the coinbase is at the bottom of the tree, or...
2037 2013-09-16 23:37:18 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, have to figure it out first
2038 2013-09-16 23:37:37 Nothing4You has quit (Disconnected by services)
2039 2013-09-16 23:37:41 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, so miner want to receive big endian data even thought he block header is actually all little endian?
2040 2013-09-16 23:37:43 <phantomcircuit> so many wats
2041 2013-09-16 23:37:46 Nothing4You has joined
2042 2013-09-16 23:37:57 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: data[::-1] <- problem solved
2043 2013-09-16 23:38:02 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: well, slush has the BIPs allocated, but hasn't taken the time to write up even an initial draft to revise :x
2044 2013-09-16 23:38:12 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, lol if only
2045 2013-09-16 23:38:25 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: the "big endian" you see is de facto little endian
2046 2013-09-16 23:38:39 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, wat
2047 2013-09-16 23:38:39 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: that's why the BIP process does not start with "allocate a BIP number" ....
2048 2013-09-16 23:38:59 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: yes, but stratum ignored the BIP process and all
2049 2013-09-16 23:39:08 PRab has joined
2050 2013-09-16 23:39:14 <gmaxwell> well, my bad, but he actually had an initial draft.
2051 2013-09-16 23:39:21 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: mmm.  Good for them!  They seem to be wildly successful.
2052 2013-09-16 23:39:48 <gmaxwell> so, I did kinda hope that he'd make good and follow through, I was just happy that he was using the process!
2053 2013-09-16 23:39:50 denisx has joined
2054 2013-09-16 23:40:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: did he send it to you? maybe it can be put up as-is, and let him revise it when he gets more time?
2055 2013-09-16 23:40:23 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I think the lesson of stratum is that you need to make validating and posessing blockchain data your proof-of-work function. :/
2056 2013-09-16 23:41:26 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, anyways it seems like the prevhash is supplied the same way it is in the block (ie not swapped), but nearly everything else is swapped
2057 2013-09-16 23:41:31 bbrian has joined
2058 2013-09-16 23:41:33 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, which doesn't make any sense
2059 2013-09-16 23:42:45 <CodeShark> pulltester doesn't checkout the src/qt/res/icons directory?
2060 2013-09-16 23:43:16 <petertodd> CodeShark: what src/qt/res/icons directory?
2061 2013-09-16 23:43:40 <CodeShark> I added a png file to the qt icons directory - pulltester is complaining it can't find it
2062 2013-09-16 23:44:07 <sipa> CodeShark: which PR?
2063 2013-09-16 23:44:20 <CodeShark> 2841
2064 2013-09-16 23:44:58 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: YOu can see what it checked out here: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/794a1f169b0e317ae8578268518d8291c22a5217/bitcoin/src/qt/res/icons/
2065 2013-09-16 23:45:14 <CodeShark> hmm, the file appears to be there
2066 2013-09-16 23:45:26 <CodeShark> http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/794a1f169b0e317ae8578268518d8291c22a5217/bitcoin/src/qt/res/icons/keypair.png
2067 2013-09-16 23:47:07 <sipa> CodeShark: you may need to add it to some autotools file too
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2069 2013-09-16 23:48:19 <Luke-Jr> or maybe needs a different relative path..
2070 2013-09-16 23:49:34 <gavinandresen> Looks like it needs to be in the Makefile.am.  Or Makefile.in.  I can never remember which of those is generated....
2071 2013-09-16 23:49:36 <sipa> it's using the same path as other .png files
2072 2013-09-16 23:49:40 <sipa> .am
2073 2013-09-16 23:49:43 Diapolis has joined
2074 2013-09-16 23:49:50 <sipa> .in is generated from .am
2075 2013-09-16 23:49:50 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: am -> in -> Makefile
2076 2013-09-16 23:49:57 <CodeShark> I'll try adding it to src/qt/Makefile.am
2077 2013-09-16 23:50:09 <gavinandresen> Of COURSE…  because "in" means "in no case edit this file"
2078 2013-09-16 23:50:29 <gavinandresen> (what DOES the .am mean?  I AM the one you want?)
2079 2013-09-16 23:50:35 <sipa> AutoMake?
2080 2013-09-16 23:50:35 <gavinandresen> (wait… automake?)
2081 2013-09-16 23:51:04 <sipa> (just a guess, i'm autotools noobish)
2082 2013-09-16 23:51:10 patcon has joined
2083 2013-09-16 23:51:15 <Luke-Jr> XD
2084 2013-09-16 23:51:35 <gavinandresen> I'm tired of automake/ctools,lets switch to cmake now.
2085 2013-09-16 23:51:42 <sipa> haha
2086 2013-09-16 23:51:43 <gavinandresen> (KIDDING!)
2087 2013-09-16 23:52:07 <sipa> how about we create our own build system?
2088 2013-09-16 23:52:09 <sipa> *ducks*
2089 2013-09-16 23:52:11 <CodeShark> I'm fine with using autotools as long as someone else maintains everything :)
2090 2013-09-16 23:52:17 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I have one I wrote in Perl
2091 2013-09-16 23:52:28 <Luke-Jr> it's for video though, not code; might need some tweaking
2092 2013-09-16 23:52:32 <gavinandresen> Been there, done that… (Inventor had a 'makemake' tool)
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2095 2013-09-16 23:55:47 <CodeShark> I've attempted learning more about autotools on a couple occasions but in the end it came to a decision whether I wanted to invest that time into learning autotools or instead invest that time into learning a bunch more things that are much more fundamental
2096 2013-09-16 23:56:31 <sipa> i'm fine with doing basic maintenance like adding new files or making some flag tweas
2097 2013-09-16 23:56:52 <sipa> but i really hope someone does the heavy lifting of it when necessary :)
2098 2013-09-16 23:57:26 <CodeShark> the biggest problem I have with autotools is its fragility - a subtle change can trigger errors far from where the change is and no sensible error messages are given
2099 2013-09-16 23:58:49 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I've seldom had problems like that, YMMV.
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2101 2013-09-16 23:59:32 <Luke-Jr> I agree the error reporting sucks, but usually opening up configure itself instantly makes the problem obvious IMO
2102 2013-09-16 23:59:48 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: perhaps it's just my noobness showing, but I noticed that just getting a couple lines in the wrong order in an am file could lead to the config script crashing in strange ways