1 2013-09-17 00:00:24 Guest____ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
   2 2013-09-17 00:00:37 <CodeShark> and sometimes these errors have included things like missing semicolons or other syntactical crap
   3 2013-09-17 00:02:10 <CodeShark> which seems to imply that the engine is just hacking crap together rather than using abstract internal representations
   4 2013-09-17 00:02:28 <sipa> it's just a bunch of macros, afaik
   5 2013-09-17 00:02:30 Guest____ has joined
   6 2013-09-17 00:02:58 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: it is :D
   7 2013-09-17 00:03:47 peetaur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
   8 2013-09-17 00:04:31 <gmaxwell> indeed, it's mystical crap. It works surprisingly well considering that its like a duct-taped old car, except there is no car, just ducttape all the way down.
   9 2013-09-17 00:05:11 <sipa> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:Ducktape.JPG
  10 2013-09-17 00:06:04 ticean has joined
  11 2013-09-17 00:06:16 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  12 2013-09-17 00:06:19 <gavinandresen> speaking of duck tape...
  13 2013-09-17 00:06:40 <gavinandresen> … I'm trying to get rid of the hard-coded fee constants sprinkled throughout our code.
  14 2013-09-17 00:06:54 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, do you have an example for responding to mining.get_transactions ?
  15 2013-09-17 00:06:58 <gavinandresen> And I'm thinking about free transactions and the rules for relaying/mining them....
  16 2013-09-17 00:06:59 ahmedbodi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  17 2013-09-17 00:07:15 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: iirc it's just an array of strings with the raw transactions in hex, in order
  18 2013-09-17 00:07:26 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: Eloipool implements it, if you want a code example
  19 2013-09-17 00:07:29 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, can do
  20 2013-09-17 00:08:01 <gavinandresen> In particular:  the "if you have an output less than {base_fee} then you must pay a fee" rule.
  21 2013-09-17 00:08:04 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: we could get rid of the 0.01 output rule for all I care.
  22 2013-09-17 00:08:19 <gmaxwell> I see we were thinking of the same rule.
  23 2013-09-17 00:08:24 kadoban has joined
  24 2013-09-17 00:08:31 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: well, we should fix the comment in the code (it IS {base_fee} and not 0.01)
  25 2013-09-17 00:08:38 <Luke-Jr> side note: currently it's <CENT, not <BaseFee
  26 2013-09-17 00:08:46 <Luke-Jr> it is?
  27 2013-09-17 00:08:58 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: hm! I suspect it's different things in different places then!
  28 2013-09-17 00:09:00 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I'll double-check the source....
  29 2013-09-17 00:09:08 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I can do that; go on
  30 2013-09-17 00:09:10 <CodeShark> so why do people still invest at all into autotools when clearly there exist far better approaches?
  31 2013-09-17 00:09:33 <Luke-Jr>             if (txout.nValue < CENT)
  32 2013-09-17 00:09:34 <Luke-Jr>                 nMinFee = nBaseFee;
  33 2013-09-17 00:09:39 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it supports cross compiling and is portable to lots of stuff that you probably don't care about.
  34 2013-09-17 00:09:42 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, lots and lots of infrastructure
  35 2013-09-17 00:09:48 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: there aren't better approaches.
  36 2013-09-17 00:10:13 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: there's a few half-baked attempts that work worse in practice
  37 2013-09-17 00:10:15 <gmaxwell> plus even though it requires mistic sacrifice of goats and funny chants, you can find them in 10001 other packages with some quick searches.
  38 2013-09-17 00:10:18 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I sit corrected
  39 2013-09-17 00:10:49 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, "c"        : is fastest algorithm at 0.00000 MH/s
  40 2013-09-17 00:10:51 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: in any case, I don't think the CENT rule is actually terribly useful. It certantly complicates coin selection logic.
  41 2013-09-17 00:10:54 <phantomcircuit> that doesn't seem likely
  42 2013-09-17 00:11:01 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: lol
  43 2013-09-17 00:11:13 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: agreed, I think we should get rid of it.
  44 2013-09-17 00:11:24 <Luke-Jr> IIRC the CENT rule was what we have DUST for now
  45 2013-09-17 00:11:34 <CodeShark> I understand there's craploads of legacy stuff - but given the importance of its function in portability you'd think someone would have already worked on a suitable replacement
  46 2013-09-17 00:11:36 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: but: it is making me think about what free transactions are for, and avoiding polluting the UTXO set
  47 2013-09-17 00:11:46 <Luke-Jr> but more tolerant of deviation, and less forgiving of amount
  48 2013-09-17 00:12:25 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  49 2013-09-17 00:12:41 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Right, thus was the motivation behind that pull I have with changing the priority to not count the basic scriptsig size.
  50 2013-09-17 00:12:45 <Luke-Jr> I think a "ok, it might be reasonable to send this amount, but it taxes the network a bit and might be abused if let free" rule is good to keep in some form
  51 2013-09-17 00:12:45 <sipa> CodeShark: http://xkcd.com/927/
  52 2013-09-17 00:12:49 <gmaxwell> and right I think CENT is surpassed by DUST.
  53 2013-09-17 00:12:52 <Belxjander> gavinandresen: I've been getting away with free transactions based on when I put money or take money out of different exchange sites... usually exchange->exchange transfers
  54 2013-09-17 00:13:09 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yes, I'm looking at that, too.  We talked about making priority a function of #inputs and #outputs
  55 2013-09-17 00:13:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: It is a bit frustrating that everything there isn't an explicit wall up in front of people regard as a natural right.
  56 2013-09-17 00:13:34 <gavinandresen> If we're going to change the priority calculation, I'd like to do it once, now, because I've been working on code that saves the mempool and priorities to disk
  57 2013-09-17 00:14:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I have failed to parse that statement O.o
  58 2013-09-17 00:14:09 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  59 2013-09-17 00:14:21 <sipa> Luke-Jr: if a door isn't locked, people will assume they're allowed to enter
  60 2013-09-17 00:14:37 <Luke-Jr> oh
  61 2013-09-17 00:14:49 <sipa> my gmaxwelese is getting good these days
  62 2013-09-17 00:14:54 <TheLordOfTime> sipa: heh
  63 2013-09-17 00:14:55 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: in thinking through it one problem I kept running into is that if you do something like priority = f(outputs-inputs,whatever) that when you have more outputs than inputs to the point where you have "too much priority" then you can have an incentive to add outputs to save up your priority. I was having a hard time avoiding creating that possibility.
  64 2013-09-17 00:15:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I ran into a multisig wallet recently that had two change addresses for every tx already...
  65 2013-09-17 00:16:06 <CodeShark> petertodd: which one?
  66 2013-09-17 00:16:12 <Luke-Jr> for relaying, it makes sense to just rate limit and prioritise no-fee txns IMO
  67 2013-09-17 00:16:13 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: mmm.  Random thought I had was:  if #outputs+1 > #inputs then NOTFREE.   But we'll hate that if we start creating multiple change outputs for privacy....
  68 2013-09-17 00:16:16 <Luke-Jr> for mining is another matter
  69 2013-09-17 00:16:35 <petertodd> CodeShark: it was at http://46.4.92.107:3191/, one of Amir's friends
  70 2013-09-17 00:16:49 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I don't think we need multiple change outputs, if CoinJoin gets integrated.
  71 2013-09-17 00:16:57 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: clamp priority as a %? anything that is 100% gets queued and anything 99% and lower is delayed until fitted into a "batch" for each block?
  72 2013-09-17 00:17:18 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yea, and say you have 10 inputs, wouldn't you want to make there be 11 outputs, just so you have outputs to consume later to keep yourself under that rule?
  73 2013-09-17 00:17:25 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: clamping is exactly the problem.
  74 2013-09-17 00:17:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: 11+1 > 10 = true
  75 2013-09-17 00:18:01 macboz has joined
  76 2013-09-17 00:18:01 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: the point I was making is that if your transaction is too good then you may add more outputs to make it worse in order to have yummy outputs to redeem later.
  77 2013-09-17 00:18:21 Guest____ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  78 2013-09-17 00:18:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: oops, fencepost error, 9  same point.
  79 2013-09-17 00:18:58 <gmaxwell> In any case, that weirdness goes away if you just make additional inputs nearly free (doesn't hurt your priority) but not less than free.
  80 2013-09-17 00:19:01 <CodeShark> petertodd: either the URL is bad or the server is down
  81 2013-09-17 00:19:03 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yes…  So, spam attack I'm worried about:  Person with 100 BTC decides to be an asshole.  Once a day they generate a high-priority transaction that splits of a bunch of DUST+1-sized outputs....
  82 2013-09-17 00:19:17 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  83 2013-09-17 00:19:46 <petertodd> CodeShark: hence the "it was" :P got posted on Amir's unsystem mailing list, google it!
  84 2013-09-17 00:20:34 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: perhaps priority should be calculated based on median txout size….
  85 2013-09-17 00:21:19 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yup, lots of total value, I'm not sure that it's really much of an attack though— those outputs need to get consumed someday, the attack was really in the creation of the outputs. The problem with it is that it may be rather 'lumpy' and use up all the space at once.
  86 2013-09-17 00:22:10 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: right.  With planning, you could monopolize the free area
  87 2013-09-17 00:22:23 <gmaxwell> I could say "limit free txn to some sane size" but we actually do want to encourage people to sweep up their dust.
  88 2013-09-17 00:22:41 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: scale the difference of inputs and outputs and don't care how many or how much?
  89 2013-09-17 00:22:48 <gmaxwell> More ideally some "size limit depends on how old your inputs are" but thats too hard for people to reason about.
  90 2013-09-17 00:23:32 <gavinandresen> The behavior I want to disincentivize is creating lots of tiny txouts.
  91 2013-09-17 00:23:37 patcon has joined
  92 2013-09-17 00:23:58 <gavinandresen> The dust rule goes a long way....
  93 2013-09-17 00:24:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: It's notably that third-party wallets almost never try to take priority rules into account.
  94 2013-09-17 00:24:02 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: e.g. right now you can easily find threads on the forum where people have dust filled wallets and they try to send from them and fail and eventually they export a single private key that has most of their funds and delete the wallet.
  95 2013-09-17 00:24:29 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: right we do want to disincentivize creating them but also not disincentivize consuming them once they're created.
  96 2013-09-17 00:24:48 <gmaxwell> I don't think we can incentivize consuming them without also incentivizing creating them.
  97 2013-09-17 00:24:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: last time i ask this (promised!), but how did you get the pull requests as a remote repo?
  98 2013-09-17 00:24:59 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: right, which is why calculating priority based on the txout value(s) might make more sense than the txin value(s)
  99 2013-09-17 00:25:34 <warren> gavinandresen: one patch from litecoin will disincent the creation of lots of tiny txouts
 100 2013-09-17 00:25:40 <CodeShark> if the cost of creating them is larger than the reward of consuming them, doesn't that solve the issue?
 101 2013-09-17 00:25:41 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: just brainstorming, but something like (weighted ages of txins) * (median value of txouts) ….
 102 2013-09-17 00:25:50 <warren> gavinandresen: asking people to "stop doing it" doens't work.
 103 2013-09-17 00:26:03 Sarah has joined
 104 2013-09-17 00:26:21 <gavinandresen> warren: what does litecoin do?  The base-fee-for-every-output-less-than-0.01?
 105 2013-09-17 00:26:27 Sarah is now known as Guest91665
 106 2013-09-17 00:26:30 <warren> gavinandresen: yes, since 2011
 107 2013-09-17 00:26:43 <gavinandresen> warren: I'm trying to get rid of hard-coded, centralized fee setting
 108 2013-09-17 00:26:58 <CodeShark> lower base fee for transactions that consume dust, increase base fee for transactions that create it
 109 2013-09-17 00:27:03 normanrichards has quit ()
 110 2013-09-17 00:27:12 <warren> gavinandresen: it doesn't have to be hard-coded, it can be multiplicative of whatever the floating going rate is
 111 2013-09-17 00:27:16 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: I'm trying to get rid of hard-coded … yada yada
 112 2013-09-17 00:27:26 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: for txouts, what you want is the harmonic mean I think.
 113 2013-09-17 00:29:05 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 114 2013-09-17 00:29:15 <gmaxwell> Thats the canonical "small values dominate the result" function, it's also the case that the harmonic mean reflects the future bitcoin days destroyed per byte of the txn that would consume those outputs.
 115 2013-09-17 00:29:39 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: that sounds right.  Looks easy to calculate....
 116 2013-09-17 00:29:47 <justusranvier> What if a transaction is always eilgible for relaying and block inclusion if the number txouts is less than the number of txins, regardless of other criteria?
 117 2013-09-17 00:30:19 Guest91665 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 118 2013-09-17 00:30:27 <sipa> justusranvier: even if it is 500 KiB and pays no fees?
 119 2013-09-17 00:30:33 <CodeShark> I still like the idea of charging rent for unspent outs (by the kb, not by the bitcoin - this is not demurrage) and deleting the unspent out when it can no longer afford to pay the rent :)
 120 2013-09-17 00:30:56 malaimo has joined
 121 2013-09-17 00:30:57 <sipa> who sets the fee/kb?
 122 2013-09-17 00:31:06 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I know, but it's an economic change, a non-trivial one— and worse, it has parameters.
 123 2013-09-17 00:31:31 <CodeShark> there are many issues that would need to be solved - it's far from trivial. but I like it in principle :)
 124 2013-09-17 00:32:07 <gmaxwell> If satoshi had set that in at the outset there would be a good probablity that the parmeters would turn out wrong... we're lucky with most of the ones we have... but at least even that wouldn't have the consent problem.
 125 2013-09-17 00:32:42 Thepok2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 126 2013-09-17 00:32:46 <gmaxwell> For a brief moment I'd hoped people would consent to such a change without trouble, but no, actually turns out that a lot of people are really hostile to the idea. I think most can be talked around to it with about an hour of 1:1 talk....
 127 2013-09-17 00:33:29 <gavinandresen> sipa: I plan on asking miners/pools to set the minimum fee/kb that they'll include in blocks
 128 2013-09-17 00:34:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: which idea?
 129 2013-09-17 00:34:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: actually, that's a different topic:  I'm very tempted to FORCE miners to make that decision instead of relying on a default we set
 130 2013-09-17 00:34:58 <sipa> gavinandresen: i wasn't talking about your plan (which i'm fuzzy about, i must admit), but who would set the rent price in codeshark's idea
 131 2013-09-17 00:35:06 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: did you see the estimate on the forums last year on transaction fee needed to be paid now to pay for a UTXO forever, assuming moore's law holds?
 132 2013-09-17 00:35:31 <warren> gavinandresen: how will relays know whether or not a tx fee is high enough to relay?
 133 2013-09-17 00:35:38 <warren> gavinandresen: they aren't privy to what miners chose
 134 2013-09-17 00:35:50 <petertodd> warren: Sure they are: just watch what tx's get mined.
 135 2013-09-17 00:36:10 <gavinandresen> warren: see https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/6548612   -- they'll watch what miners decide to include
 136 2013-09-17 00:36:12 <petertodd> warren: Set a bandwidth limit and prioritize by fee.
 137 2013-09-17 00:36:13 <sipa> or rather, which don't get mined
 138 2013-09-17 00:36:18 <warren> I was told that was a bad idea because pools have side-contracts to mine stuff....
 139 2013-09-17 00:36:21 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: if I didn't see that one, I've seen some other (or done the same calculation myself)
 140 2013-09-17 00:36:21 <petertodd> sipa: correct
 141 2013-09-17 00:36:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: the expiration of utxo.
 142 2013-09-17 00:36:43 <gmaxwell> It has motivations other than rent, e.g. uncertanty about the currency supply.
 143 2013-09-17 00:36:57 <petertodd> warren: the side-contract stuff won't show up in mempools though - the rule is only if mempool -> block happens (or nothing happens)
 144 2013-09-17 00:37:09 <warren> ah, ok
 145 2013-09-17 00:37:15 <gavinandresen> sipa:  I've been running experiments on watching what DOES get mined, and it works well to estimate the miner's collective policies.
 146 2013-09-17 00:37:27 <sipa> you can have a side-contract for things which are in mempools
 147 2013-09-17 00:37:39 <sipa> resulting in skewed statistics
 148 2013-09-17 00:37:44 <sipa> gavinandresen: ok, interesting
 149 2013-09-17 00:37:56 <petertodd> warren: The ugly one is I've got a possible system that would keep rough balance sheets so you could aggregate micropayments to get tx's mined - but that can probably be a separate relaying network anyway.
 150 2013-09-17 00:37:58 <sipa> but what advantage does that have over watching what doesn't get mined?
 151 2013-09-17 00:38:24 <gavinandresen> sipa: you don't want to relay what does not get mined
 152 2013-09-17 00:38:32 <gavinandresen> sipa:  … and if it is not relayed, then you don't see it.
 153 2013-09-17 00:38:58 <gavinandresen> (so you don't get enough data to make a good estimate)
 154 2013-09-17 00:38:58 <petertodd> warren: Main use there would be payment protocol, where the customer didn't add a fee, but you don't want to spend a fee uselessly in a child-pays-for-parent.
 155 2013-09-17 00:39:14 mbelshe has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 156 2013-09-17 00:39:36 <gavinandresen> (bah, just fell into one of my pet peeves:  "You only want to relay what has a good chance of being mined")
 157 2013-09-17 00:39:49 <gavinandresen> (pet peeve == double negatives)
 158 2013-09-17 00:39:50 splnkr has joined
 159 2013-09-17 00:40:17 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: sure, but what you really want is the data from the most attractive transaction which failed to get mined, thats the one you have to beat.
 160 2013-09-17 00:40:20 splnkr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 161 2013-09-17 00:40:29 <gmaxwell> so you don't need the deep-pool of non-mined stuff.
 162 2013-09-17 00:40:45 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: "patches welcome"
 163 2013-09-17 00:40:46 <sipa> gavinandresen: if "good chance" is 50%, being you relay everything which seems to be above 1/2 the priority that you think is needed for mining, you should get a very good view on the non-mined half
 164 2013-09-17 00:40:57 <sipa> i have no data though, and i may be wrong
 165 2013-09-17 00:41:17 <sipa> but that does seem much more robust to me
 166 2013-09-17 00:41:48 <petertodd> See, I think that's all wrong: have users set a bandwidth limit, and prioritize within that limit. With node-to-node encryption if there's just junk that just means timing analysis was made harder. (but that's a big patch...)
 167 2013-09-17 00:42:00 <CodeShark> sipa: the price per kb would have to be calculated from the total size of the utxo set and perhaps collected each block
 168 2013-09-17 00:42:25 <gavinandresen> sipa:  I'll think on that.  In any case, I'd like to come to a resolution on how to compute priorities....
 169 2013-09-17 00:42:36 peetaur has joined
 170 2013-09-17 00:42:47 <CodeShark> there are a couple other factors, too
 171 2013-09-17 00:43:02 * sipa zZzZ
 172 2013-09-17 00:43:17 <CodeShark> sipa.sleep(5000)
 173 2013-09-17 00:43:36 <gavinandresen> petertodd: So transaction limit is X.  You can choose either a free, high-priority transaction or a marginal fee-paying transactions……  which is chosen?
 174 2013-09-17 00:43:45 <gavinandresen> (limit == bandwidth limit)
 175 2013-09-17 00:43:59 <Luke-Jr> sipa: .git/config
 176 2013-09-17 00:44:07 <Luke-Jr> [remote "origin-pull"]
 177 2013-09-17 00:44:08 <Luke-Jr>     fetch = +refs/pull/*:refs/remotes/origin-pull/*
 178 2013-09-17 00:44:10 <Luke-Jr>     url = git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
 179 2013-09-17 00:44:13 <gavinandresen> "get rid of free transactions" is not a good answer.
 180 2013-09-17 00:44:18 <petertodd> gavinandresen: fee-paying of course - frankly I think working on priority code will very soon be a waste of time. But to the relay node they don't really care.
 181 2013-09-17 00:44:31 sserrano44 has joined
 182 2013-09-17 00:44:41 <warren> Luke-Jr: it turns out you don't need a separate remote for that, you can add it as another fetch to origin
 183 2013-09-17 00:44:57 <Luke-Jr> warren: perhaps; I prefer a separate remote
 184 2013-09-17 00:45:00 <warren> k
 185 2013-09-17 00:45:04 <Luke-Jr> I only fetch it when rebuilding next-test really
 186 2013-09-17 00:45:11 normanrichards has joined
 187 2013-09-17 00:45:14 <Luke-Jr> or at least when I'm prepared to update my next-test plan file
 188 2013-09-17 00:45:16 <CodeShark> the number of bitcoins sent in the block, the number of transactions in the block, the current size of the utxo
 189 2013-09-17 00:45:42 <petertodd> gavinandresen: For a relay node, it's not crazy to just do a direct priority -> fee conversion, penalizing tx's that make the utxo space bigger. (just mesure it per byte)
 190 2013-09-17 00:46:21 <CodeShark> or not the number of transactions in the block - the total size of the block (in bytes)
 191 2013-09-17 00:46:56 <petertodd> CodeShark: ?
 192 2013-09-17 00:47:12 <CodeShark> the parameters that go into the formula for price per byte
 193 2013-09-17 00:47:21 sserrano44 has quit (Client Quit)
 194 2013-09-17 00:47:22 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
 195 2013-09-17 00:48:04 <CodeShark> and from an economic perspective, it seems to make sense that you buy real estate in blocks but rent utxo space
 196 2013-09-17 00:48:14 <petertodd> CodeShark: yup
 197 2013-09-17 00:48:20 <petertodd> CodeShark: but that's -wizards sadly
 198 2013-09-17 00:49:34 sserrano44 has joined
 199 2013-09-17 00:49:46 <petertodd> Anyway, main thing is for now we need priority because we can't group tx's together for relaying.
 200 2013-09-17 00:50:23 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I think I like  priority = sum(txin value*age) * harmonic_mean(txouts) / (adjusted size)     where adjusted size is your pull request
 201 2013-09-17 00:50:40 <gavinandresen> oh, and harmonic_mean(txouts) is txout values
 202 2013-09-17 00:52:42 <gmaxwell> (harmonic_mean(txouts) + fees) perhaps?
 203 2013-09-17 00:53:10 <sipa> this seems quadratic in total value transacted
 204 2013-09-17 00:53:14 <gmaxwell> (including a small fee shouldn't lower your priority)
 205 2013-09-17 00:54:02 <gavinandresen> sipa: hmm?
 206 2013-09-17 00:54:10 sserrano44 has quit (Client Quit)
 207 2013-09-17 00:54:17 <sipa> gavinandresen: double all amounts (inputs and outputs), and the priority goes *4
 208 2013-09-17 00:54:39 <gmaxwell> yea, the non-linearity in value isn't quite right.   (harmonic_mean(txouts)+fees)*(sum(txin value*age)/sum(txin value)) / (adjusted size)
 209 2013-09-17 00:55:09 <gmaxwell> that basically computes an input weighed age and multiplies the harmonic mean by it?
 210 2013-09-17 00:55:09 <CodeShark> wouldn't increasing the minimum fee for greater age effectively amount to charging rent?
 211 2013-09-17 00:55:33 <petertodd> CodeShark: there's no such thing as a minimum fee
 212 2013-09-17 00:55:43 <CodeShark> not as part of the protocol, sure
 213 2013-09-17 00:55:46 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: and we are _decreasing_ the fee for greater age.
 214 2013-09-17 00:55:47 <sipa> CodeShark: the problem is that if the rent because large enough, people will just leave it unspent
 215 2013-09-17 00:56:07 <sipa> CodeShark: which is what you want to avoid at all costs
 216 2013-09-17 00:56:12 <petertodd> CodeShark: rent works only if the txout can go bankrupt and vanish :P
 217 2013-09-17 00:56:14 <CodeShark> sipa: right - they would also need to expire at some point
 218 2013-09-17 00:56:18 <denisx> what happens when I use the checkpoints=0 option?
 219 2013-09-17 00:56:28 <sipa> denisx: every signature will be checked
 220 2013-09-17 00:56:31 <petertodd> CodeShark: ...and expiring is -wizards material
 221 2013-09-17 00:56:36 <CodeShark> lol
 222 2013-09-17 00:56:48 <denisx> sipa: how can have it the other way?
 223 2013-09-17 00:56:49 <sipa> CodeShark: yeah, combined with some expiration, that makes perfect sense
 224 2013-09-17 00:56:53 <sipa> denisx: ?
 225 2013-09-17 00:56:54 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell sipa: ACK, a division by sum(txin) is in order
 226 2013-09-17 00:56:59 <denisx> is there a way to set the checkpoint manually?
 227 2013-09-17 00:57:05 <sipa> no
 228 2013-09-17 00:57:08 <denisx> except in source
 229 2013-09-17 00:57:23 <gmaxwell> denisx: what are you trying to accomplish?
 230 2013-09-17 00:57:35 * sipa guesses: avoiding all signature checks
 231 2013-09-17 00:57:46 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 232 2013-09-17 00:58:00 <CodeShark> why is adding expiration -wizards material?
 233 2013-09-17 00:58:00 <petertodd> CodeShark: remember that with all this stuff basically we're saying "miners are still irrational, and people donate to the network, so lets figure out how to take advantage of that while we still can while the block subsidy dwarfs everything else"
 234 2013-09-17 00:58:04 <denisx> I had a db corruption and deleted the chainstate
 235 2013-09-17 00:58:08 <petertodd> CodeShark: it's an economic change
 236 2013-09-17 00:58:11 Belxjander has joined
 237 2013-09-17 00:58:21 <denisx> until the checkpoint it rebuilded fast, but now it crawls
 238 2013-09-17 00:58:39 <gmaxwell> denisx: what kind of cpu?
 239 2013-09-17 00:58:48 <denisx> i3
 240 2013-09-17 00:59:37 * sipa hopes to get rid of checkpoints altogether
 241 2013-09-17 00:59:40 <gmaxwell> hm. how many cores and what clock? I'm surprised anything modern would be slow enough that you'd show up looking to disable it.
 242 2013-09-17 00:59:44 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: … and it ain't gonna happen. Those 2-satoshi outputs you want to expire "might be worth thousands of dollars someday!"
 243 2013-09-17 00:59:59 <gmaxwell> Yea, I fully expect that once headers first is merged we can at least reduce the importance of checkpoints.
 244 2013-09-17 01:00:50 <gmaxwell> I'd also like to rename them to the extent that we keep them, because in altcoin land they now mean alerts that pick the winning chain...
 245 2013-09-17 01:01:14 <denisx> gmaxwell: i3 3.2GHz, 1 package(s) x 2 core(s) x 2 SMT threads
 246 2013-09-17 01:01:30 <CodeShark> full headers + sliding window for full validation seems like a reasonable approach
 247 2013-09-17 01:01:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: what would you rename them to?
 248 2013-09-17 01:01:32 Guest___ has joined
 249 2013-09-17 01:01:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: chain pinning?
 250 2013-09-17 01:01:46 <warren> gmaxwell: historicguideposts?
 251 2013-09-17 01:01:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: "pinned block"
 252 2013-09-17 01:02:05 <gmaxwell> I dunno, never actually thought of it.
 253 2013-09-17 01:02:44 Guest___ has quit (Client Quit)
 254 2013-09-17 01:02:53 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 255 2013-09-17 01:02:58 <sipa> wait, i was going to sleep?
 256 2013-09-17 01:03:11 * sipa goes into standby
 257 2013-09-17 01:03:43 <gmaxwell> I'd prefer to remove them completely, since headers first based validation gating removes their pratical purpose... but I think people are too used to the security blank of them being the easy out explination as to why a chain rewrite from start can't happen.
 258 2013-09-17 01:04:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Just don't update them and see how long it takes for people to realize that a 6 month old checkpoint is old enough that a rewrite would be a disaster anyway.
 259 2013-09-17 01:05:23 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 260 2013-09-17 01:06:04 <warren> I recognize https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2910 is less important with headers first, but will it be of any benefit at all?
 261 2013-09-17 01:06:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: a one day rewrite would be a disaster.
 262 2013-09-17 01:07:07 <CodeShark> http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/2e9f1aca7a493f9eb82bdcfe38f47043e338ef24/test.log -  echo error: could not build paymentrequest.pb.h
 263 2013-09-17 01:07:13 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Exactly!
 264 2013-09-17 01:07:16 <gmaxwell> Certantly a multiday one. Thats why checkpoints aren't a real genuine and honest answer to that concern.
 265 2013-09-17 01:07:56 <gmaxwell> But people like to fixate on the doomsday and checkpoints let you say "thats actually impossible", ... and for some weird reason that actually stops the questioning down that road, as if it were an actual answer!
 266 2013-09-17 01:08:04 <gmaxwell> I'm guilty of using it myself, it's very effective.
 267 2013-09-17 01:08:14 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: oh dude
 268 2013-09-17 01:08:17 <Diablo-D3> Im the opposite
 269 2013-09-17 01:08:27 <Diablo-D3> if someone tells me thats impossible
 270 2013-09-17 01:08:31 <Diablo-D3> im like
 271 2013-09-17 01:08:31 <gmaxwell> The downside is that then people also walk away thinking that checkpoints are the real consensus mechenism, and you can see a couple academic papers basically working under this perspective. :(
 272 2013-09-17 01:08:35 <Diablo-D3> challangeaccepted.jpg
 273 2013-09-17 01:08:55 <CodeShark> checkpoints could be hashed into block headers :)
 274 2013-09-17 01:09:03 <sipa> CodeShark: LOL
 275 2013-09-17 01:09:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ...and bitcoinmagazine reporting about feathercoins advanced checkpointing technology :/
 276 2013-09-17 01:09:10 <CodeShark> hehe
 277 2013-09-17 01:09:13 <Diablo-D3> CodeShark: hah
 278 2013-09-17 01:09:14 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: but it really is impossible, but it was an irrelevant attack.  Someone said "what if I set this straw man on fire" and I responded "our strawmen are actually made of asbestos"
 279 2013-09-17 01:09:17 <sipa> warren: i need to response to that
 280 2013-09-17 01:09:26 <sipa> *respond
 281 2013-09-17 01:09:28 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: lol
 282 2013-09-17 01:09:46 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: seriously though, whats so big about the checkpoints?
 283 2013-09-17 01:09:53 <warren> sipa: sorry, sleep
 284 2013-09-17 01:09:58 <sipa> right!
 285 2013-09-17 01:09:59 <Diablo-D3> its just there to prevent long term bullshit attacks against new clients
 286 2013-09-17 01:10:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: bad sipa. sleep!
 287 2013-09-17 01:10:08 ticean has joined
 288 2013-09-17 01:10:10 <sipa> why are you all awake at such ungodly hours? :(
 289 2013-09-17 01:10:10 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yea, and headers first will do that a better way.
 290 2013-09-17 01:10:11 <petertodd>  /ignore sipa ; sleep 8 hr ; /unignore sipa
 291 2013-09-17 01:10:15 <CodeShark> sipa.notify_all();
 292 2013-09-17 01:10:26 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: actually, why arent we already doing headers first
 293 2013-09-17 01:10:29 <denisx> its only 3am here
 294 2013-09-17 01:10:34 <denisx> too early ;)
 295 2013-09-17 01:10:35 <gmaxwell> Because the code isn't done yet.
 296 2013-09-17 01:10:38 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I swear I asked that like 2 years ago and no one answered it
 297 2013-09-17 01:10:59 <sipa> Diablo-D3: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2964. Done.
 298 2013-09-17 01:11:15 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: and it's taken that time to move things to a point where doing it isn't terribly hard, and now its almost done.
 299 2013-09-17 01:11:33 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yay
 300 2013-09-17 01:11:46 <sipa> only need to fix pulltester :(
 301 2013-09-17 01:11:48 <Diablo-D3> also wtf, we're already on 0.8.5
 302 2013-09-17 01:11:53 <sipa> (well, hopefully *only*)
 303 2013-09-17 01:11:57 <cfields> CodeShark: that's no real error, the line just isn't silenced properly.
 304 2013-09-17 01:12:02 <petertodd> sipa: go away :P
 305 2013-09-17 01:12:08 <Diablo-D3> sipa: sleep dude
 306 2013-09-17 01:12:13 <sipa> yes, moms
 307 2013-09-17 01:12:14 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 308 2013-09-17 01:12:20 <Diablo-D3> sipa: a healthy person needs at least 9 hours of sleep a night
 309 2013-09-17 01:12:29 <cfields> CodeShark: it's "make paymentrequest.pb.h || echo echo error: could not build paymentrequest.pb.h"
 310 2013-09-17 01:12:44 GordonG3kko has joined
 311 2013-09-17 01:12:49 <gmaxwell> There are basically two pratical uses of checkpoints: closing off a bunch of stupid new-node DOS attacks, and the performance optimizations for the deep chain. Headers first can solve both.
 312 2013-09-17 01:12:57 <CodeShark> ok
 313 2013-09-17 01:13:26 zeiris has joined
 314 2013-09-17 01:13:28 <gmaxwell>  /nick sipas_mom01
 315 2013-09-17 01:13:48 sipa has left ("zZzZ")
 316 2013-09-17 01:13:50 * petertodd is a lumberjack and he's ok
 317 2013-09-17 01:15:13 Gues_____ has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
 318 2013-09-17 01:15:50 Diapolis has joined
 319 2013-09-17 01:16:02 <petertodd> gmaxwell: What's the deal with the edge cases you and s-i-p-a were talking about re: headers first? Like three competing forks?
 320 2013-09-17 01:19:14 <gmaxwell> it's fine, I think.
 321 2013-09-17 01:19:39 <petertodd> cool, so nothing too unobvious then?
 322 2013-09-17 01:19:42 <gmaxwell> I suggested a decision criteria, and for a bit he was thinking that it wasn't unique but I think he then realized he was confused.
 323 2013-09-17 01:20:25 <petertodd> huh, though first you hear about is fine still right?
 324 2013-09-17 01:20:27 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: so, just to be clear, headers first spams the 80 byte headers?
 325 2013-09-17 01:20:32 <gmaxwell> basically, to get the right behavior you need to have the first-best made explicit.
 326 2013-09-17 01:20:48 <petertodd> Right
 327 2013-09-17 01:21:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the problem is that in the current code if you get a better set of headers and its invalid you'll be on the wrong chain.
 328 2013-09-17 01:21:48 <petertodd> I'm working on doing a BlockChainHeaders class for python-bitcoinlib, and I figured I'd just go for headers first basically as step 1
 329 2013-09-17 01:21:50 <gmaxwell> e.g.  A vs A' and you are on A and then you get A'-B but B is invalid.
 330 2013-09-17 01:22:04 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: there's still an economic motivation NOT to create longer invalid chains
 331 2013-09-17 01:22:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Right, so when you find out B is invalid, you need to backtrack?
 332 2013-09-17 01:22:34 <CodeShark> creating longer chains is expensive
 333 2013-09-17 01:22:45 <CodeShark> and carries huge risk of having all rewards voided
 334 2013-09-17 01:22:52 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: until you can short bitcoin.
 335 2013-09-17 01:23:16 <petertodd> CodeShark: problem is usually even if you don't know the full block yet the probability is very high it is a valid block, so you might as well start extending it
 336 2013-09-17 01:23:23 <CodeShark> granted, an entity with sufficient resources and motivation to destroy bitcoin could mount such an attack
 337 2013-09-17 01:24:01 <CodeShark> petertodd: yeah, there's also the issue of whether miners do full validation or not
 338 2013-09-17 01:24:23 <petertodd> CodeShark: Nothing actually requires them too - I could easily run a SPV miner and get away with it.
 339 2013-09-17 01:24:32 <petertodd> CodeShark: Kinda dangerous re: p2pool really.
 340 2013-09-17 01:25:07 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Second largest public pool effectively was.
 341 2013-09-17 01:25:17 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup
 342 2013-09-17 01:25:22 <gmaxwell> (50BTC and their P2SH orphaning debacle)
 343 2013-09-17 01:25:56 sserrano44 has joined
 344 2013-09-17 01:26:20 Sarah has joined
 345 2013-09-17 01:26:33 <petertodd> I've been trying to figure out how to make miners prove they actually have complete UTXO sets (fairly easy) and working validation machinery. (probably impossible)
 346 2013-09-17 01:26:44 Sarah is now known as Guest98014
 347 2013-09-17 01:27:38 <CodeShark> the problem is that verifying the miner has working validation machinery is probably at least as expensive as validating it yourself
 348 2013-09-17 01:28:05 toffoo has joined
 349 2013-09-17 01:28:16 <petertodd> CodeShark: Nah, it's worse than that: there's no way to know it's bug free.
 350 2013-09-17 01:28:45 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it's not a replacement for validating it yourself. Thats not why you demand it from them, it's something all full nodes should demand of each other as an anti-defection proof.
 351 2013-09-17 01:28:48 <CodeShark> petertodd: right - at best you could infer it's correct from past behavior but doesn't guarantee correct future behavior
 352 2013-09-17 01:28:49 <petertodd> CodeShark: UTXO set though is just a NI proof-of-posession, although a good one is kinda bulky. :(*
 353 2013-09-17 01:29:11 <gmaxwell> "E.g. since I'm doing all this annoying work, I darn well want to be sure all of you are too"
 354 2013-09-17 01:29:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: very good way of putting it
 355 2013-09-17 01:29:54 <CodeShark> so there is built-in incentive for miners to validate - but no absolute guarantee
 356 2013-09-17 01:29:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Oh, and that's what's interesting about fidelity bonded mining: it can be profitable to fool your buggy peers into producing invalid blocks.
 357 2013-09-17 01:30:16 <CodeShark> perhaps the greatest risk would come from a bug in an implementation
 358 2013-09-17 01:30:35 Guest98014 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 359 2013-09-17 01:30:36 <petertodd> CodeShark: of course, that's a network-wide disaster
 360 2013-09-17 01:30:55 <gmaxwell> esp wrt miners, since mining is competitive, you can reduce costs == more profit. At least thats a risk if validation cost is non-trivial (and maybe it already is, though I think it's nuts to say that)
 361 2013-09-17 01:30:58 JZavala has joined
 362 2013-09-17 01:31:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: It'll be interesting as margins go down and people start caring more about pool fees: they'll start wanting to use p2pool, but not wanting to store this big UTXO set and spend a bunch of time downloading crap.
 363 2013-09-17 01:32:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: hence SPV mode mining
 364 2013-09-17 01:32:42 <gmaxwell> at least p2pool can prevent that.
 365 2013-09-17 01:32:58 <gmaxwell> but not all ideas for decenteralized mining could.
 366 2013-09-17 01:33:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, it can easily bolt on proof-of-utxo unlike us
 367 2013-09-17 01:33:11 <gmaxwell> right.
 368 2013-09-17 01:33:14 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 369 2013-09-17 01:33:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right now it doesn't really try to verify anything about mined blocks, though it at least directs a super-portion of the subsidy to the finder
 370 2013-09-17 01:34:14 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 371 2013-09-17 01:34:18 <gmaxwell> petertodd: IIRC it checks the basic stuff.
 372 2013-09-17 01:34:24 <gmaxwell> e.g. headers level consistency.
 373 2013-09-17 01:34:54 <petertodd> yeah, but it doesn't for instance check transactions (it used to penalize shares with tx's not in your mempool, but that was dropped)
 374 2013-09-17 01:35:26 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure it never did that.
 375 2013-09-17 01:35:41 <gmaxwell> It requires you to pre-relay your txn ahead of your shares, however.
 376 2013-09-17 01:35:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Maybe I misread it, but something along those lines changed recently.
 377 2013-09-17 01:35:46 FabianB has joined
 378 2013-09-17 01:35:46 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 379 2013-09-17 01:36:42 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 380 2013-09-17 01:38:59 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 381 2013-09-17 01:39:58 <CodeShark> what's with these errors? http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/962a3956d322c8558a43beec33ab1d3298f98458/test.log
 382 2013-09-17 01:40:59 <gmaxwell> out of space in /tmp ?
 383 2013-09-17 01:41:59 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 384 2013-09-17 01:42:17 * CodeShark invents a way to upload more disk space over a network
 385 2013-09-17 01:44:24 akrmn has joined
 386 2013-09-17 01:44:59 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 387 2013-09-17 01:46:57 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, it's probably a tmpfs
 388 2013-09-17 01:47:10 johnsoft has joined
 389 2013-09-17 01:48:22 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 390 2013-09-17 01:48:58 Coincidental has joined
 391 2013-09-17 01:48:59 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 392 2013-09-17 01:49:01 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 393 2013-09-17 01:49:38 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 394 2013-09-17 01:50:09 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 395 2013-09-17 01:50:43 rdymac has joined
 396 2013-09-17 01:51:38 GordonG3kko has joined
 397 2013-09-17 01:54:15 <cfields> CodeShark: mmm, that's a bit too coincidental considering the tests merge that just went in
 398 2013-09-17 01:54:37 <CodeShark> cfields: care to elaborate?
 399 2013-09-17 01:55:10 <cfields> CodeShark: current head of master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/b16e9f02c82b98635da53c7e485614cba766f0a9
 400 2013-09-17 01:55:23 owowo has joined
 401 2013-09-17 01:55:30 <CodeShark> oh, hmm - time for another rebase?
 402 2013-09-17 01:56:25 <CodeShark> or the new merge just ate up all the disk space?
 403 2013-09-17 01:57:05 <cfields> CodeShark: not quite sure. that merge causes the tests to be embedded into the binary rather than read from the .json files at runtime. shouldn't have any meaningful effect on size, really
 404 2013-09-17 01:57:44 <cfields> CodeShark: i'm not sure how it'd be related. just pointing out the link between test failures and the last commit which changes how tests are run
 405 2013-09-17 01:58:04 <CodeShark> but the last commit isn't a part of this particular test
 406 2013-09-17 01:58:56 <cfields> pull-tester merges the test-branch into master before running, no?
 407 2013-09-17 01:59:34 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 408 2013-09-17 01:59:36 <CodeShark> I really don't know
 409 2013-09-17 02:00:11 <cfields> i'll pull your branch and verify that i didn't mess you up
 410 2013-09-17 02:00:24 <CodeShark> ok, cool
 411 2013-09-17 02:01:40 <cfields> which branch is it?
 412 2013-09-17 02:01:46 zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 413 2013-09-17 02:03:44 <CodeShark> noautofillkeypool
 414 2013-09-17 02:04:29 <CodeShark> pull request 2841
 415 2013-09-17 02:05:44 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
 416 2013-09-17 02:06:38 johba has joined
 417 2013-09-17 02:07:28 johba has quit (Client Quit)
 418 2013-09-17 02:07:50 twobitcoins has joined
 419 2013-09-17 02:08:15 <cfields> CodeShark: ok, the tests fail here as well. and they also fail before that merge
 420 2013-09-17 02:08:27 ticean has joined
 421 2013-09-17 02:08:51 <CodeShark> hmmm
 422 2013-09-17 02:09:10 <CodeShark> you also get BDB errors?
 423 2013-09-17 02:09:24 johba has joined
 424 2013-09-17 02:09:29 <cfields> yea, same ones
 425 2013-09-17 02:09:46 <CodeShark> or I mean CDB
 426 2013-09-17 02:10:25 <cfields> CodeShark: heh, same errors just building your branch as well :)
 427 2013-09-17 02:10:26 agricocb has joined
 428 2013-09-17 02:10:36 Subo1977_ has joined
 429 2013-09-17 02:12:12 <cfields> CodeShark: 'make check' is clean for you?
 430 2013-09-17 02:12:24 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 431 2013-09-17 02:12:37 <CodeShark> no
 432 2013-09-17 02:12:43 <CodeShark> I get those CDB errors
 433 2013-09-17 02:12:51 <CodeShark> and the SSL errors, too
 434 2013-09-17 02:13:03 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 435 2013-09-17 02:13:58 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 436 2013-09-17 02:14:29 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 437 2013-09-17 02:14:48 <CodeShark> bitcoind and bitcoin-qt seem to run fine, though
 438 2013-09-17 02:15:43 rdymac has joined
 439 2013-09-17 02:17:26 Belkaar has joined
 440 2013-09-17 02:17:59 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 441 2013-09-17 02:18:57 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 442 2013-09-17 02:19:41 ericmuyser has joined
 443 2013-09-17 02:19:54 Application has joined
 444 2013-09-17 02:21:53 o3u is now known as Fistful_of_ltc
 445 2013-09-17 02:22:13 rdymac has joined
 446 2013-09-17 02:24:10 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 447 2013-09-17 02:24:46 Application has joined
 448 2013-09-17 02:26:35 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 449 2013-09-17 02:26:47 johba has quit (Quit: johba)
 450 2013-09-17 02:27:07 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 451 2013-09-17 02:27:27 Belkaar has joined
 452 2013-09-17 02:27:43 rdymac has joined
 453 2013-09-17 02:29:23 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 454 2013-09-17 02:30:11 qbasicer has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 455 2013-09-17 02:30:42 qbasicer has joined
 456 2013-09-17 02:31:21 Edward_Black has quit (Quit: ow ow ow...)
 457 2013-09-17 02:31:37 nx201 has joined
 458 2013-09-17 02:31:50 Edward_Black has joined
 459 2013-09-17 02:31:56 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 460 2013-09-17 02:32:14 paracyst has joined
 461 2013-09-17 02:32:17 <CodeShark> oh, I think I know what might be going on
 462 2013-09-17 02:32:42 <CodeShark> I removed the default key from the wallet
 463 2013-09-17 02:33:48 Application has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 464 2013-09-17 02:34:54 <CodeShark> the best fix is probably to just fill the key pool when the wallet is initially created
 465 2013-09-17 02:34:57 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 466 2013-09-17 02:36:06 splnkr has joined
 467 2013-09-17 02:37:05 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I thought we fixed missing a default key for the locked salvagewallet case?
 468 2013-09-17 02:37:51 Coincidental has joined
 469 2013-09-17 02:38:04 <CodeShark> no, I mean I removed default key support from the codebase
 470 2013-09-17 02:38:25 <CodeShark> not from wallet.dat
 471 2013-09-17 02:38:35 hydromet has joined
 472 2013-09-17 02:39:28 Krellan__ has joined
 473 2013-09-17 02:39:44 johba has joined
 474 2013-09-17 02:39:44 sserrano44 has joined
 475 2013-09-17 02:39:55 rdponticelli_ has joined
 476 2013-09-17 02:40:11 <CodeShark> err
 477 2013-09-17 02:40:18 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 478 2013-09-17 02:40:20 <hydromet> does anyone have any recommendations for exchanging fiat for BTC (especially for Americans wanting to exchange USD)?
 479 2013-09-17 02:40:25 <CodeShark> actually, scratch that - the issue is probably that the wallet is empty when it is first created
 480 2013-09-17 02:40:28 <hydromet> given the problems Mt. Gox has endured ....
 481 2013-09-17 02:40:34 zeiris has joined
 482 2013-09-17 02:40:48 <CodeShark> there's also bitstamp
 483 2013-09-17 02:40:53 <CodeShark> and a few smaller exchanges
 484 2013-09-17 02:41:03 <gmaxwell> hydromet: wrong channel for that question, fwiw.
 485 2013-09-17 02:41:17 <CodeShark> but yeah, try #bitcoin-otc
 486 2013-09-17 02:41:43 rdymac has joined
 487 2013-09-17 02:41:59 <hydromet> gmaxwell: yes and no fwiw ... after all the work getting Bitcoin-Qt to build from source from master with autotools on OS X, the wallet should be used including for receiving the egress of exchanges from fiat
 488 2013-09-17 02:42:31 <CodeShark> ???
 489 2013-09-17 02:42:50 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 490 2013-09-17 02:42:56 <hydromet> gmaxwell: but I do agree there are probably better channels to ask this sort of question since this channel is devoted more so to development
 491 2013-09-17 02:43:47 Krellan__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 492 2013-09-17 02:43:55 <hydromet> CodeShark: jumped through hoops this past weekend to get Bitcoin-Qt from master to compile on OS X with intricate dependency challenged including libtiff believe it or not
 493 2013-09-17 02:44:04 <hydromet> challengees
 494 2013-09-17 02:44:09 <hydromet> can't spell today
 495 2013-09-17 02:44:22 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 496 2013-09-17 02:44:41 <CodeShark> that wasn't the part of your comment for which I typed ???
 497 2013-09-17 02:44:41 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 498 2013-09-17 02:44:48 <CodeShark> it's the second part
 499 2013-09-17 02:45:23 <CodeShark> the part after the comma
 500 2013-09-17 02:45:58 <hydromet> speaking of wallets, interesting news today about Bitcoin Wallet Armory raising money today to develop its wallet further
 501 2013-09-17 02:46:09 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 502 2013-09-17 02:46:20 <hydromet> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-secure-bitcoin-wallet-armory-raises-600k-led-by-trace-mayer-2013-09-16
 503 2013-09-17 02:46:39 <CodeShark> good luck to alan
 504 2013-09-17 02:46:49 <hydromet> indeed
 505 2013-09-17 02:47:40 <hydromet> they'll have three full timers on armory ... should be interesting
 506 2013-09-17 02:48:02 nx201 has joined
 507 2013-09-17 02:48:17 <gmaxwell> I still don't understand how they're planning on making money.
 508 2013-09-17 02:48:39 <hydromet> they don't seem to know the answer to that question yet
 509 2013-09-17 02:48:41 <gmaxwell> (I don't mean that in a negative light or anything)
 510 2013-09-17 02:49:12 <gmaxwell> I talked to alan about his business plans at the conference (was kinda odd that armory had a booth…) and he gave an answer that I must not have really understood.
 511 2013-09-17 02:49:12 <hydromet> it strikes me as one of those "we'll figure it out later" scenarios
 512 2013-09-17 02:49:49 <gmaxwell> He's a really smart dude so I'm sure he'll come out on top regardless of how it pans out.
 513 2013-09-17 02:49:53 <hydromet> maybe alan had some ideas but didn't want to divulge?
 514 2013-09-17 02:50:17 <Diablo-D3> I think what hydromet said is probably true
 515 2013-09-17 02:50:43 rdymac has joined
 516 2013-09-17 02:51:30 <gmaxwell> Perhaps, though he could have also just told me that. Or maybe he was telling me that and I was too dense to hear it. :) Always possible.
 517 2013-09-17 02:51:50 <Diablo-D3> well
 518 2013-09-17 02:51:52 <Diablo-D3> I dunno dude
 519 2013-09-17 02:51:55 <Diablo-D3> you're pretty smart
 520 2013-09-17 02:52:00 <Cusipzzz> 600k 600k doesn't last that long
 521 2013-09-17 02:52:17 <gmaxwell> when you're employing multiple people, no...
 522 2013-09-17 02:52:24 <Diablo-D3> otoh
 523 2013-09-17 02:52:30 <Diablo-D3> I could make 600k last the rest of my life =/
 524 2013-09-17 02:53:31 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yea, just get a really good drug and skydiving habbit...
 525 2013-09-17 02:53:33 <hydromet> overall this seems a good move for Bitcoin at large
 526 2013-09-17 02:53:48 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hah
 527 2013-09-17 02:54:03 <gmaxwell> hydromet: well, if it goes kablooy and the end result is alan exiting, not so much.
 528 2013-09-17 02:54:26 ticean has joined
 529 2013-09-17 02:54:51 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 530 2013-09-17 02:55:25 <hydromet> gmaxwell: its difficult to say since we don't know the terms and conditions negotiated between alan and the investors (i.e., exits)
 531 2013-09-17 02:56:17 Vl4dim1r has joined
 532 2013-09-17 02:56:34 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 533 2013-09-17 02:56:58 <Diablo-D3> http://sphia.org/index.html
 534 2013-09-17 02:57:17 <Diablo-D3> time to replace leveldb
 535 2013-09-17 02:57:17 <TheLordOfTime> ... I found an interesting bug... but i don't know how to test/replicate as it happens randomly...
 536 2013-09-17 02:57:18 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 537 2013-09-17 02:57:18 * Diablo-D3 runs
 538 2013-09-17 02:57:19 Application has joined
 539 2013-09-17 02:57:27 <TheLordOfTime> occasionally, on Ubuntu/Linux, 0.8.5 won't load the bitcoin tray icon
 540 2013-09-17 02:57:40 <TheLordOfTime> and this is with BlueMatt's PPAs
 541 2013-09-17 02:57:51 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 542 2013-09-17 02:57:58 Vl4dim1r has quit ()
 543 2013-09-17 02:58:56 Diapolis has joined
 544 2013-09-17 03:00:13 rdymac has joined
 545 2013-09-17 03:06:16 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 546 2013-09-17 03:06:36 ticean has joined
 547 2013-09-17 03:11:28 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 548 2013-09-17 03:12:41 nx201 has joined
 549 2013-09-17 03:12:45 rdymac has joined
 550 2013-09-17 03:13:39 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 551 2013-09-17 03:14:47 bizoro has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 552 2013-09-17 03:17:12 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 553 2013-09-17 03:17:40 <jgarzik> OSv: impressive stuff.  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/11mxUl8PBDQ3C4QyeHBT8BcMPGzqk-C8bV1Fw8xLgwSI/edit#slide=id.ge6c9b92a_031
 554 2013-09-17 03:17:49 <jgarzik> (even though I'm not a JVM fan)
 555 2013-09-17 03:18:04 <jgarzik> A lot of solid, well known Linux kernel engineers attached
 556 2013-09-17 03:18:57 nx201 has joined
 557 2013-09-17 03:20:37 tsche has joined
 558 2013-09-17 03:20:53 bizoro has joined
 559 2013-09-17 03:22:06 <cfields> avi kivity is a big name indeed
 560 2013-09-17 03:22:15 <Cusipzzz> cool deck
 561 2013-09-17 03:22:22 <cfields> but jvm in-kernel...
 562 2013-09-17 03:22:46 Roscoe has quit (Disconnected by services)
 563 2013-09-17 03:22:52 r0sc0e has joined
 564 2013-09-17 03:23:18 <jgarzik> netchannels is a big feature, though few outside TCP/IP geek circles know of it
 565 2013-09-17 03:24:43 <jgarzik> design opens the possibility of beating just about every mainstream OS in terms of TCP/IP CPU usage.  No problem doing an X Gbps TCP/IP stream.
 566 2013-09-17 03:24:45 <cfields> heh, porting native apps reads identically to porting android apps
 567 2013-09-17 03:25:05 <cfields> and chrome's nativeclient stuff is starting to sound the same
 568 2013-09-17 03:25:19 <cfields> shared libs: apps 2.0 !
 569 2013-09-17 03:26:04 <jgarzik> They finally got rid of that pesky userland once and for all
 570 2013-09-17 03:26:11 <jgarzik> ;p
 571 2013-09-17 03:26:20 <cfields> heh, Linus' dream-come-true
 572 2013-09-17 03:27:06 Sarah has joined
 573 2013-09-17 03:27:07 nowan has joined
 574 2013-09-17 03:27:30 Sarah is now known as Guest10833
 575 2013-09-17 03:28:21 <cfields> that's pretty much how it reads, though. sandbox to kernel with almost nothing in between
 576 2013-09-17 03:29:42 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 577 2013-09-17 03:30:18 <cfields> jgarzik: never heard of netchannels. any suggested reading?
 578 2013-09-17 03:30:20 nowan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 579 2013-09-17 03:31:51 Guest10833 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 580 2013-09-17 03:32:26 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 581 2013-09-17 03:32:37 CryptoBuck has joined
 582 2013-09-17 03:33:14 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 583 2013-09-17 03:33:43 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 584 2013-09-17 03:34:07 <jgarzik> cfields, search string "van jacobson net channels"
 585 2013-09-17 03:34:14 <jgarzik> without the quotes
 586 2013-09-17 03:34:32 hydromet has left ()
 587 2013-09-17 03:34:47 <cfields> thanks
 588 2013-09-17 03:35:23 nx201 has joined
 589 2013-09-17 03:38:31 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 590 2013-09-17 03:39:02 <jgarzik> Here's a good link: http://lwn.net/Articles/169961/    Moving a lot of the TCP/IP processing down into the end-of-line application has several efficiencies.
 591 2013-09-17 03:39:14 rdymac has joined
 592 2013-09-17 03:40:51 Diapolis has joined
 593 2013-09-17 03:41:00 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 594 2013-09-17 03:41:30 bbrian has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
 595 2013-09-17 03:42:39 nx201 has joined
 596 2013-09-17 03:42:47 wei_ has joined
 597 2013-09-17 03:42:56 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 598 2013-09-17 03:43:31 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 599 2013-09-17 03:45:15 <CodeShark> interesting. thanks, jgarzik
 600 2013-09-17 03:46:14 rdymac has joined
 601 2013-09-17 03:46:30 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
 602 2013-09-17 03:46:35 [7] has joined
 603 2013-09-17 03:46:56 sserrano44 has joined
 604 2013-09-17 03:50:36 asa1024 has joined
 605 2013-09-17 03:51:24 mrkent has joined
 606 2013-09-17 03:51:30 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
 607 2013-09-17 03:51:30 mrkent has joined
 608 2013-09-17 03:53:05 <jgarzik> DaveM's blog post on net channels is also worth reading, if a bit more technical: http://vger.kernel.org/~davem/cgi-bin/blog.cgi/2006/01/27#vj_channels  DaveM is the kernel networking maintainer.
 609 2013-09-17 03:53:14 <jgarzik> (also gcc on Sparc and glibc)
 610 2013-09-17 03:53:49 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 611 2013-09-17 03:55:27 johba has quit (Quit: johba)
 612 2013-09-17 03:56:05 dparrish has joined
 613 2013-09-17 04:00:14 rdymac has joined
 614 2013-09-17 04:03:47 owowo has quit (Quit: dead)
 615 2013-09-17 04:05:13 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 616 2013-09-17 04:07:14 rdymac has joined
 617 2013-09-17 04:09:08 Luke-Jr has quit (Excess Flood)
 618 2013-09-17 04:10:12 Luke-Jr has joined
 619 2013-09-17 04:10:36 Coincidental has joined
 620 2013-09-17 04:13:10 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 621 2013-09-17 04:15:45 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 622 2013-09-17 04:21:17 saivann has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 623 2013-09-17 04:23:09 dparrish has joined
 624 2013-09-17 04:23:44 rdymac has joined
 625 2013-09-17 04:24:03 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 626 2013-09-17 04:27:29 Sarah has joined
 627 2013-09-17 04:27:52 Sarah is now known as Guest10630
 628 2013-09-17 04:31:56 Guest10630 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 629 2013-09-17 04:37:57 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 630 2013-09-17 04:38:31 bizoro has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 631 2013-09-17 04:41:01 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 632 2013-09-17 04:44:36 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 633 2013-09-17 04:45:58 apurplehorse has quit ()
 634 2013-09-17 04:48:14 rdymac has joined
 635 2013-09-17 04:49:31 <Krellan> Nice to read about "net channels".  I'm still waiting for Van Jacobsen to finish pathchar :)
 636 2013-09-17 04:52:04 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
 637 2013-09-17 04:54:52 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 638 2013-09-17 05:00:07 mappum has joined
 639 2013-09-17 05:04:14 rdymac has joined
 640 2013-09-17 05:05:53 kadoban has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 641 2013-09-17 05:06:21 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 642 2013-09-17 05:09:14 rdymac has joined
 643 2013-09-17 05:09:59 <swulf--> "Safe mode: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."
 644 2013-09-17 05:10:06 <swulf--> what's the proper course of action to fix this?
 645 2013-09-17 05:10:13 <CodeShark> -reindex
 646 2013-09-17 05:10:19 <swulf--> ok
 647 2013-09-17 05:10:25 <Luke-Jr> O.o
 648 2013-09-17 05:10:33 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: depends on the cause
 649 2013-09-17 05:10:42 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: what version is it?
 650 2013-09-17 05:10:57 <swulf-->     "version" : 80300,
 651 2013-09-17 05:11:09 asa1024 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 652 2013-09-17 05:11:17 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: upload your debug.log somewhere
 653 2013-09-17 05:11:36 <Luke-Jr> share the link privately if you'd not want your transaction privacy compromised
 654 2013-09-17 05:12:23 <Luke-Jr> it's probably big - please don't try to trim it
 655 2013-09-17 05:12:34 <swulf--> hmmm, it doesn't look like there's any log info in there
 656 2013-09-17 05:12:44 <warren> what's all the config options to shrink memory of bitcoind as much as possible?
 657 2013-09-17 05:12:44 <Luke-Jr> :/
 658 2013-09-17 05:12:50 <warren> maxconnections dbcache, what else?
 659 2013-09-17 05:12:50 <swulf--> i use -printtoconsole - does that cause it to not log to debug.log too?
 660 2013-09-17 05:12:59 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: probably
 661 2013-09-17 05:13:39 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: well, -reindex should help in most cases; but upgrade to 0.8.5 first
 662 2013-09-17 05:13:46 <swulf--> perhaps it should be renamed to -printtoconsoleaswell
 663 2013-09-17 05:14:03 <swulf--> hehe..
 664 2013-09-17 05:14:14 saivann has joined
 665 2013-09-17 05:15:14 <Luke-Jr> that'd be the opposite!
 666 2013-09-17 05:16:01 LoRez has quit (Ping timeout: 624 seconds)
 667 2013-09-17 05:17:15 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 668 2013-09-17 05:17:26 <swulf--> i'll start with my old blockchain download and see where that gets me
 669 2013-09-17 05:17:52 rawdr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 670 2013-09-17 05:17:52 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: ?
 671 2013-09-17 05:18:20 asa1024 has joined
 672 2013-09-17 05:20:14 rdymac has joined
 673 2013-09-17 05:21:03 ForceMajeure_ has joined
 674 2013-09-17 05:21:25 patcon has joined
 675 2013-09-17 05:21:55 sserrano44 has joined
 676 2013-09-17 05:22:41 <swulf--> i made a backup of the block index, so i just copy that over whenever a corruption occurs
 677 2013-09-17 05:22:51 <swulf--> its roughly a week or two old so that's gonna be much faster than a -reinde
 678 2013-09-17 05:22:52 <swulf--> x
 679 2013-09-17 05:23:52 ForceMajeure has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 680 2013-09-17 05:24:17 ivan\ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 681 2013-09-17 05:25:05 rawdr has joined
 682 2013-09-17 05:27:04 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 683 2013-09-17 05:27:27 ivan\ has joined
 684 2013-09-17 05:27:47 Sarah has joined
 685 2013-09-17 05:28:11 Sarah is now known as Guest16523
 686 2013-09-17 05:30:14 rdymac has joined
 687 2013-09-17 05:31:55 c0rw1n has joined
 688 2013-09-17 05:32:05 tiberiusiv has joined
 689 2013-09-17 05:32:23 Krellan_ has joined
 690 2013-09-17 05:32:52 Guest16523 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 691 2013-09-17 05:38:14 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 692 2013-09-17 05:42:44 rdymac has joined
 693 2013-09-17 05:45:01 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: that's probably why it's broken
 694 2013-09-17 05:46:48 psychophoniac has joined
 695 2013-09-17 05:47:46 discrete has joined
 696 2013-09-17 05:49:01 discretefx has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 697 2013-09-17 05:49:55 johba has joined
 698 2013-09-17 05:54:20 agath has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 699 2013-09-17 05:54:38 agath has joined
 700 2013-09-17 05:56:49 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 701 2013-09-17 05:57:22 ericmuyser has joined
 702 2013-09-17 06:00:03 longcat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 703 2013-09-17 06:01:29 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 704 2013-09-17 06:01:42 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 705 2013-09-17 06:01:54 enikanorov has joined
 706 2013-09-17 06:02:34 splnkr_ has joined
 707 2013-09-17 06:03:14 eculver_ has joined
 708 2013-09-17 06:03:18 Liquid__ has joined
 709 2013-09-17 06:04:44 rdymac has joined
 710 2013-09-17 06:05:07 hsmiths2 has joined
 711 2013-09-17 06:05:14 DaQatz_ has joined
 712 2013-09-17 06:05:17 enquirer has joined
 713 2013-09-17 06:05:21 The_Fly_ has joined
 714 2013-09-17 06:06:14 malaimo_ has joined
 715 2013-09-17 06:07:23 tmsk has joined
 716 2013-09-17 06:07:34 tmsk has quit (Client Quit)
 717 2013-09-17 06:07:48 tmsk has joined
 718 2013-09-17 06:08:34 ericmuyser has joined
 719 2013-09-17 06:10:22 Applicat_ has joined
 720 2013-09-17 06:10:37 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 721 2013-09-17 06:10:48 splnkr_ is now known as splnkr
 722 2013-09-17 06:11:54 iwilcox has joined
 723 2013-09-17 06:11:54 mihar has joined
 724 2013-09-17 06:12:14 rdymac has joined
 725 2013-09-17 06:13:09 catcowllama has joined
 726 2013-09-17 06:13:09 catcowllama has quit (Changing host)
 727 2013-09-17 06:13:09 catcowllama has joined
 728 2013-09-17 06:14:05 edcba__ has joined
 729 2013-09-17 06:14:18 djcoin has joined
 730 2013-09-17 06:14:20 altgribble` has joined
 731 2013-09-17 06:14:25 mpv has joined
 732 2013-09-17 06:15:06 Internet13 has joined
 733 2013-09-17 06:15:06 dustjn has joined
 734 2013-09-17 06:15:08 tcatm_ has joined
 735 2013-09-17 06:15:15 Clown has joined
 736 2013-09-17 06:15:40 Clown is now known as Guest27517
 737 2013-09-17 06:16:22 Prattler_ has joined
 738 2013-09-17 06:17:07 crank_ has joined
 739 2013-09-17 06:17:08 clopez has quit (Disconnected by services)
 740 2013-09-17 06:17:11 sneak_ has joined
 741 2013-09-17 06:17:13 clarkm_ has joined
 742 2013-09-17 06:17:22 gmaxwell_ has joined
 743 2013-09-17 06:17:26 cyphase has joined
 744 2013-09-17 06:17:32 wizkidO57 has joined
 745 2013-09-17 06:17:41 wizkid057 has quit (Disconnected by services)
 746 2013-09-17 06:17:45 clopez_ has joined
 747 2013-09-17 06:17:51 wizkidO57 is now known as wizkid057
 748 2013-09-17 06:18:15 AtashiCon has quit (Disconnected by services)
 749 2013-09-17 06:18:17 [BNC]dansmithbtc has joined
 750 2013-09-17 06:18:23 AtashiCon has joined
 751 2013-09-17 06:18:26 mhanne_ has joined
 752 2013-09-17 06:19:21 Prattler has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 753 2013-09-17 06:19:22 mps has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 754 2013-09-17 06:19:22 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 755 2013-09-17 06:19:22 dansmithbtc2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 756 2013-09-17 06:19:22 altgribble has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 757 2013-09-17 06:19:23 catcow has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 758 2013-09-17 06:19:24 clarkm has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 759 2013-09-17 06:19:24 nba_btchip has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 760 2013-09-17 06:19:24 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 761 2013-09-17 06:19:24 elgrecoFL has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 762 2013-09-17 06:19:24 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 763 2013-09-17 06:19:25 bakingbread has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 764 2013-09-17 06:19:25 edcba has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 765 2013-09-17 06:19:25 d9b4bef9 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 766 2013-09-17 06:19:25 gmaxwell has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 767 2013-09-17 06:19:25 tcatm has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 768 2013-09-17 06:19:25  has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 769 2013-09-17 06:19:26 mhanne has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 770 2013-09-17 06:20:12 nba_btchip has joined
 771 2013-09-17 06:20:31 elgrecoFL has joined
 772 2013-09-17 06:21:11 FabianB_ has joined
 773 2013-09-17 06:21:33 d9b4bef9 has joined
 774 2013-09-17 06:21:48 tych0 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 775 2013-09-17 06:21:58 agath has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
 776 2013-09-17 06:22:02 Belkaar_ has joined
 777 2013-09-17 06:22:06 Raziel has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 778 2013-09-17 06:22:07 mikalv_ has joined
 779 2013-09-17 06:22:33 FabianB has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 780 2013-09-17 06:22:33 mortikia has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
 781 2013-09-17 06:22:52 agath has joined
 782 2013-09-17 06:22:54 mortikia has joined
 783 2013-09-17 06:23:10 XertroV_ has joined
 784 2013-09-17 06:23:35 AtashiCon has quit (Disconnected by services)
 785 2013-09-17 06:23:41 AtashiCon has joined
 786 2013-09-17 06:23:53 rawdr_ has joined
 787 2013-09-17 06:24:25 Tril_ has joined
 788 2013-09-17 06:24:55 bmcgee has joined
 789 2013-09-17 06:24:55 normanrichards has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 790 2013-09-17 06:25:03 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 791 2013-09-17 06:25:03 nowan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 792 2013-09-17 06:25:03 mikalv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 793 2013-09-17 06:25:12 helo_ has joined
 794 2013-09-17 06:25:25 Internet13 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 795 2013-09-17 06:25:25 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 796 2013-09-17 06:25:25 Tril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 797 2013-09-17 06:25:25 ryan-c has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 798 2013-09-17 06:25:25 XertroV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 799 2013-09-17 06:25:26 mpv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 800 2013-09-17 06:25:39 iwilcox_ has joined
 801 2013-09-17 06:25:44 ccook has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 802 2013-09-17 06:25:44 valparaiso has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 803 2013-09-17 06:25:44 gjs278 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 804 2013-09-17 06:25:44 rawdr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 805 2013-09-17 06:25:44 digitalmagus3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 806 2013-09-17 06:25:44 helo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 807 2013-09-17 06:25:44 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
 808 2013-09-17 06:25:59 Squid_ has joined
 809 2013-09-17 06:26:19 lakehouse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 810 2013-09-17 06:26:30 lakehouse has joined
 811 2013-09-17 06:26:44 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 812 2013-09-17 06:27:01 Raziel has joined
 813 2013-09-17 06:27:14 Polyatomic has joined
 814 2013-09-17 06:27:18 ericmuyser has joined
 815 2013-09-17 06:27:20 valparaiso has joined
 816 2013-09-17 06:27:42 nx201 has joined
 817 2013-09-17 06:28:31 ryan-c has joined
 818 2013-09-17 06:29:22 Squidicuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 819 2013-09-17 06:30:21 twobitcoins_ has joined
 820 2013-09-17 06:31:42 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 821 2013-09-17 06:31:45 cap2002 has joined
 822 2013-09-17 06:31:50 abrkn has joined
 823 2013-09-17 06:32:57 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 824 2013-09-17 06:33:02 cap2002 has quit (Client Quit)
 825 2013-09-17 06:33:46 saivann has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 826 2013-09-17 06:35:01 mps has joined
 827 2013-09-17 06:35:55 lle has joined
 828 2013-09-17 06:36:47 paracyst has quit ()
 829 2013-09-17 06:38:59 jeewee has joined
 830 2013-09-17 06:39:32 digitalmagus2 has joined
 831 2013-09-17 06:40:45 btsec has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 832 2013-09-17 06:41:16 CodesInChaos_ has joined
 833 2013-09-17 06:42:59 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 834 2013-09-17 06:43:13 ericmuyser has joined
 835 2013-09-17 06:43:33 Diapolis has joined
 836 2013-09-17 06:47:23 michagogo has joined
 837 2013-09-17 06:50:44 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 838 2013-09-17 06:54:19 infinitev has joined
 839 2013-09-17 06:54:19 Internet13 has joined
 840 2013-09-17 06:54:19 ccook has joined
 841 2013-09-17 06:54:19 Apexseals has joined
 842 2013-09-17 06:54:29 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 843 2013-09-17 06:54:36 Internet13 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 844 2013-09-17 06:54:39 bakingbread has joined
 845 2013-09-17 06:55:38 moarrratorium has joined
 846 2013-09-17 06:55:53 viperhr1 has joined
 847 2013-09-17 06:56:12 wiretapped has joined
 848 2013-09-17 06:56:12 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 849 2013-09-17 06:56:21 GordonG3kko has joined
 850 2013-09-17 06:56:41 GordonG3kko has quit (K-Lined)
 851 2013-09-17 06:57:19 s7r has joined
 852 2013-09-17 06:57:41 sensorii has joined
 853 2013-09-17 06:57:44 guruvan has joined
 854 2013-09-17 06:57:50 Subo1977 has joined
 855 2013-09-17 06:58:12 random_cat has joined
 856 2013-09-17 06:59:02 cypher has joined
 857 2013-09-17 07:00:29 Internet13 has joined
 858 2013-09-17 07:00:32 splnkr has quit (Quit: splnkr)
 859 2013-09-17 07:01:05 gst has joined
 860 2013-09-17 07:01:58 sacredchao has joined
 861 2013-09-17 07:04:26 GordonG3kko has joined
 862 2013-09-17 07:06:03 handle has joined
 863 2013-09-17 07:06:36 moarrratorium is now known as moarrr
 864 2013-09-17 07:08:22 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 865 2013-09-17 07:08:43 last1 has joined
 866 2013-09-17 07:09:23 santoscork has joined
 867 2013-09-17 07:10:36 <last1> I have a question regarding pushpoold. Is this the right place to ask ?
 868 2013-09-17 07:11:17 <weex> last1: can't hurt
 869 2013-09-17 07:12:02 iwilcox_ is now known as iwilcox
 870 2013-09-17 07:12:18 <last1> I setup bitcoind, pushpool connects just fine to it. Now I also setup a frontend ( SimpleBTC ) but I get no stats in SimpleBTC
 871 2013-09-17 07:12:32 <last1> the front requires a bitcoind RPC user/pass which I supplied so it connects directly there
 872 2013-09-17 07:12:56 <last1> shouldn't it connect through pushpool in order to get the stats for all the accounts ?
 873 2013-09-17 07:14:46 jtimon has joined
 874 2013-09-17 07:16:01 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 875 2013-09-17 07:17:12 <Luke-Jr> last1: pushpool hasn't been maintained in years
 876 2013-09-17 07:20:43 <last1> true, but I don't think that's the issue
 877 2013-09-17 07:20:45 Subo1977 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 878 2013-09-17 07:20:55 <last1> my question is more like: should the frontend really be talking directly to bitcoind ?
 879 2013-09-17 07:21:04 <last1> shouldn't it be going through pushpoold instead ?
 880 2013-09-17 07:21:20 Subo1977 has joined
 881 2013-09-17 07:22:42 XertroV_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 882 2013-09-17 07:23:27 zer0def has joined
 883 2013-09-17 07:25:03 doublec has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 884 2013-09-17 07:25:30 doublec has joined
 885 2013-09-17 07:26:39 justusranvier has joined
 886 2013-09-17 07:29:29 <Luke-Jr> last1: I can't imagine why it would talk to pushpool
 887 2013-09-17 07:29:36 gjs278 has joined
 888 2013-09-17 07:29:48 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 889 2013-09-17 07:30:04 <last1> well, how would it know then which account did what ?
 890 2013-09-17 07:30:05 <Luke-Jr> last1: furthermore, pushpool isn't really workable for Bitcoin mining
 891 2013-09-17 07:30:32 <Luke-Jr> it proxies the deprecated getwork protocol which bitcoind can't handle the load from for any significant mining
 892 2013-09-17 07:30:43 <Luke-Jr> last1: pushpool logs shares to a SQL database usually
 893 2013-09-17 07:30:52 viperhr1 has joined
 894 2013-09-17 07:31:07 <last1> but the miners connect to the pushpool open port
 895 2013-09-17 07:31:15 <last1> not to bitcoind
 896 2013-09-17 07:31:24 <Luke-Jr> pushpool is just a proxy.
 897 2013-09-17 07:31:44 <last1> ok, so if user A proxies through pushpool to bitcoind
 898 2013-09-17 07:31:55 <last1> can bitcoinD make the different between work done by user A and user B ?
 899 2013-09-17 07:31:59 <Luke-Jr> nope
 900 2013-09-17 07:32:21 <last1> so then how does the frontend know which user did what by talking to bitcoind ?
 901 2013-09-17 07:32:28 <last1> it has to talk to pushpool (?)
 902 2013-09-17 07:32:30 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't
 903 2013-09-17 07:32:36 <Luke-Jr> it looks at the SQL database
 904 2013-09-17 07:32:45 <last1> aaah
 905 2013-09-17 07:32:50 <Luke-Jr> it talks to bitcoind for incidental network info probably
 906 2013-09-17 07:32:54 <Luke-Jr> like difficulty
 907 2013-09-17 07:33:26 <last1> well, in the frontend bitcoincontroller code I see stuff like this
 908 2013-09-17 07:33:28 <last1> $this->query("getbalance", $account, $minconf);
 909 2013-09-17 07:33:37 <last1> this is sent directly to the bitcoind daemon through RPC
 910 2013-09-17 07:33:57 <Luke-Jr> you'd have to figure out who made SimpleBTC and ask them why they do that
 911 2013-09-17 07:34:32 aa has joined
 912 2013-09-17 07:34:50 aa is now known as MobiusL
 913 2013-09-17 07:35:00 <last1> what would you recommend instead of pushpoold ?
 914 2013-09-17 07:35:07 Bwild_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 915 2013-09-17 07:35:41 <Luke-Jr> last1: Eloipool (which I am the author of) is AFAIK the only maintained open source poolserver software
 916 2013-09-17 07:35:51 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik was also writing one in C++, but I am not sure if it's complete
 917 2013-09-17 07:36:22 <last1> understood. and which frontend works best with your software ?
 918 2013-09-17 07:36:32 <Luke-Jr> I'm not familiar with any frontends.
 919 2013-09-17 07:38:59 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 920 2013-09-17 07:39:31 <last1> does eloipool support stratum ?
 921 2013-09-17 07:39:59 cypher has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 922 2013-09-17 07:40:01 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 923 2013-09-17 07:40:01 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 924 2013-09-17 07:40:02 sacredchao has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
 925 2013-09-17 07:40:14 guruvan- has joined
 926 2013-09-17 07:40:14 gst_ has joined
 927 2013-09-17 07:40:30 cypher has joined
 928 2013-09-17 07:40:31 guruvan- is now known as guruvan
 929 2013-09-17 07:41:00 KillYourTV has joined
 930 2013-09-17 07:42:03 sacredchao has joined
 931 2013-09-17 07:42:31 <Luke-Jr> last1: yes
 932 2013-09-17 07:42:42 <last1> how do you manage the miners/stats if there's no GUI ?
 933 2013-09-17 07:42:46 ralphtheninja has joined
 934 2013-09-17 07:42:59 sacrelege has joined
 935 2013-09-17 07:44:49 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 936 2013-09-17 07:46:04 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 937 2013-09-17 07:46:44 rdymac has joined
 938 2013-09-17 07:48:24 * michagogo guesses: the command line
 939 2013-09-17 07:48:31 <michagogo> (or text files)
 940 2013-09-17 07:50:08 zer0def has joined
 941 2013-09-17 07:50:33 Bwild has joined
 942 2013-09-17 07:50:36 ahmedbodi has joined
 943 2013-09-17 08:00:19 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 944 2013-09-17 08:03:14 rdymac has joined
 945 2013-09-17 08:03:47 moarrr has quit ()
 946 2013-09-17 08:08:49 weex has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 947 2013-09-17 08:09:47 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 948 2013-09-17 08:10:54 toffoo has quit ()
 949 2013-09-17 08:11:34 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 950 2013-09-17 08:13:44 rdymac has joined
 951 2013-09-17 08:14:54 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 952 2013-09-17 08:15:47 weex has joined
 953 2013-09-17 08:15:47 weex has quit (Changing host)
 954 2013-09-17 08:15:47 weex has joined
 955 2013-09-17 08:19:26 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
 956 2013-09-17 08:19:48 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 957 2013-09-17 08:22:51 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 958 2013-09-17 08:24:59 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 959 2013-09-17 08:27:37 ahmedbodi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 960 2013-09-17 08:28:12 nowan has joined
 961 2013-09-17 08:29:30 ahmedbodi has joined
 962 2013-09-17 08:29:44 rdymac has joined
 963 2013-09-17 08:30:08 <thermoman> is the noirc option still available in 0.8.5? what i want to say: are all options listed on ./bitcoind --help call?
 964 2013-09-17 08:30:21 Thepok has joined
 965 2013-09-17 08:30:22 <thermoman> or are there more options that are not listed
 966 2013-09-17 08:32:01 KillYourTV has joined
 967 2013-09-17 08:32:30 djcoin has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
 968 2013-09-17 08:33:01 djcoin has joined
 969 2013-09-17 08:33:02 coeus has joined
 970 2013-09-17 08:33:34 _ingsoc has joined
 971 2013-09-17 08:34:47 one_zero has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 972 2013-09-17 08:35:03 wei_ has joined
 973 2013-09-17 08:35:13 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 974 2013-09-17 08:37:44 rdymac has joined
 975 2013-09-17 08:39:52 tych0 has joined
 976 2013-09-17 08:41:16 digitalmagus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 977 2013-09-17 08:41:33 digitalmagus has joined
 978 2013-09-17 08:45:44 mrkent has joined
 979 2013-09-17 08:47:15 pooler_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 980 2013-09-17 08:48:29 sipa has joined
 981 2013-09-17 08:48:37 <sipa> mornin'
 982 2013-09-17 08:51:31 <warren> sipa: so response? =)
 983 2013-09-17 08:51:36 <warren> thermoman: there's no irc anymore
 984 2013-09-17 08:51:51 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
 985 2013-09-17 08:52:42 macboz has joined
 986 2013-09-17 08:53:33 <sipa> warren: ?
 987 2013-09-17 08:53:42 <sipa> ah, on that pullreq
 988 2013-09-17 08:54:21 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 989 2013-09-17 08:54:49 edcba__ has left ()
 990 2013-09-17 08:55:14 edcba has joined
 991 2013-09-17 08:55:49 [\\\] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 992 2013-09-17 08:56:29 cdecker has joined
 993 2013-09-17 08:57:18 jeewee1 has joined
 994 2013-09-17 08:57:34 [\\\] has joined
 995 2013-09-17 08:59:46 CheckDavid has joined
 996 2013-09-17 09:00:20 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 997 2013-09-17 09:00:46 Neozonz has joined
 998 2013-09-17 09:00:46 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@198-84-245-103.cpe.teksavvy.com|Changing host)
 999 2013-09-17 09:00:46 Neozonz has joined
1000 2013-09-17 09:03:42 <thermoman> i cleaned out some old config options from bitcoin.conf (like server=1, noirc=1) and now the 0.8.5 client dropped the chainstate and blockindex and does the import *again*
1001 2013-09-17 09:03:45 Subo1977 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1002 2013-09-17 09:03:46 <thermoman> why is this?
1003 2013-09-17 09:04:01 last1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1004 2013-09-17 09:04:25 Subo1977 has joined
1005 2013-09-17 09:04:51 <sipa> import from?
1006 2013-09-17 09:05:19 gst_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1007 2013-09-17 09:05:39 cypher has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1008 2013-09-17 09:06:14 <thermoman> sipa: the blkl*dat files
1009 2013-09-17 09:07:42 gst has joined
1010 2013-09-17 09:08:04 <thermoman> sipa: i upgraded from 0.7.2 to 0.8.5 yesterday
1011 2013-09-17 09:08:09 <thermoman> with unchanged bitcoin.conf
1012 2013-09-17 09:08:19 <swulf--> LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch
1013 2013-09-17 09:08:20 <thermoman> stopped/started the 0.8.5 client several times
1014 2013-09-17 09:08:21 <swulf--> yet again...
1015 2013-09-17 09:08:32 JZavala has joined
1016 2013-09-17 09:08:53 <thermoman> and now it cleaned out the index and chainstate and does the migration again
1017 2013-09-17 09:09:10 johba has quit (Quit: johba)
1018 2013-09-17 09:09:17 <sipa> did you start with -reindex ?
1019 2013-09-17 09:09:37 <sipa> or with reindex=1 in tbe config file?
1020 2013-09-17 09:10:24 <thermoman> ah fuck - i had -txindex=1 -reindex=1 -daemon options in it but no rpc ... started it ... so the client reported that i need to add rpcuser and rpcpassword and refused to start.
1021 2013-09-17 09:10:32 <thermoman> then i deleted the -txindex=1 -reindex=1
1022 2013-09-17 09:10:35 <thermoman> and started
1023 2013-09-17 09:10:58 <thermoman> so i guess the -txindex=1 -reindex=1 call removed all the leveldb stuff even though the client didn't start up
1024 2013-09-17 09:11:21 <sipa> -reindex means "rebuild the database"
1025 2013-09-17 09:11:24 <thermoman> yes
1026 2013-09-17 09:11:27 <thermoman> i understand
1027 2013-09-17 09:11:41 lle has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1028 2013-09-17 09:11:46 <thermoman> i just didn't thought that the client would delete the database when it's not starting up
1029 2013-09-17 09:12:23 <thermoman> i was under the impression all options would be parsed first and if an error occurs (like -daemon but no -rpc*) nothing is done
1030 2013-09-17 09:12:24 cypher has joined
1031 2013-09-17 09:12:32 <thermoman> seems i was wrong
1032 2013-09-17 09:13:35 <thermoman> sipa: if i wanted -txindex=1 -reindex=1 ... would i have to start the daemon with these 2 options every time or only once?
1033 2013-09-17 09:13:58 <sipa> you can set txindex every time, or just once
1034 2013-09-17 09:14:15 <sipa> reindex should only be oassed once
1035 2013-09-17 09:14:18 <sipa> *passed
1036 2013-09-17 09:14:22 <thermoman> ok
1037 2013-09-17 09:14:32 <thermoman> then the README file is not clear on this point
1038 2013-09-17 09:14:43 <sipa> what does it say?
1039 2013-09-17 09:14:47 <thermoman> it states one should add these two options to get the full stuff
1040 2013-09-17 09:14:58 <thermoman> but it doesn't say to do the -reindex=1 only once
1041 2013-09-17 09:15:13 <sipa> what file is that?
1042 2013-09-17 09:15:25 <sipa> i didn't it was even mentioned in some documentation
1043 2013-09-17 09:15:25 <thermoman> one moment
1044 2013-09-17 09:15:31 <sipa> *even know
1045 2013-09-17 09:15:33 <thermoman> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Obsolete/bitcoin-0.8.5/
1046 2013-09-17 09:15:37 <thermoman> oops
1047 2013-09-17 09:15:51 <thermoman> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.5/ete/bitcoin-0.8.5/
1048 2013-09-17 09:15:54 <thermoman> damn
1049 2013-09-17 09:15:57 <thermoman> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.5/
1050 2013-09-17 09:16:08 <thermoman> wrong
1051 2013-09-17 09:16:10 <thermoman> lemme check
1052 2013-09-17 09:17:25 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1053 2013-09-17 09:17:47 <thermoman> 0.8.0 Release notes
1054 2013-09-17 09:17:52 <thermoman> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Obsolete/bitcoin-0.8.1/
1055 2013-09-17 09:18:00 <thermoman> This release no longer maintains a full index of historical transaction ids by default, so looking up an arbitrary transaction using the getrawtransaction RPC call will not work. If you need that functionality, you must run once with -txindex=1 -reindex=1 to rebuild block-chain indices (see below for more details).
1056 2013-09-17 09:18:12 <thermoman> damn
1057 2013-09-17 09:18:14 <thermoman> "once"
1058 2013-09-17 09:18:19 <thermoman> i see
1059 2013-09-17 09:18:24 <thermoman> sorry, sipa
1060 2013-09-17 09:18:28 <sipa> :)
1061 2013-09-17 09:18:36 <thermoman> ;)
1062 2013-09-17 09:18:38 reizuki__ has joined
1063 2013-09-17 09:18:38 reizuki__ has quit (Changing host)
1064 2013-09-17 09:18:38 reizuki__ has joined
1065 2013-09-17 09:18:39 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1066 2013-09-17 09:19:04 one_zero has joined
1067 2013-09-17 09:22:01 <thermoman> sipa: the wallet always gets synced upon exit, right? so i don't have to keep the database/ directory after a successfull shutdown, right?
1068 2013-09-17 09:22:36 <sipa> the database/ directory should just be deleted at succesful shutdown, i think
1069 2013-09-17 09:22:37 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1070 2013-09-17 09:23:19 Coincidental has left ()
1071 2013-09-17 09:23:32 <nkuttler> can i run two nodes from the same datadir, one of them testnet?
1072 2013-09-17 09:24:09 swulf-- has quit ()
1073 2013-09-17 09:25:54 graingert has joined
1074 2013-09-17 09:27:44 <thermoman> can bitcoind leverage sse support and such things?
1075 2013-09-17 09:28:04 <sipa> thermoman: only a miner would benefit from that much
1076 2013-09-17 09:28:15 <sipa> nkuttler: yes
1077 2013-09-17 09:28:19 <thermoman> i run the migration in a virtual machine and the default virtual cpu has no such flags
1078 2013-09-17 09:28:39 <sipa> afaik it doesn't use sse
1079 2013-09-17 09:28:45 <thermoman> ok
1080 2013-09-17 09:29:39 <thermoman> 11:07 < swulf--> LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch
1081 2013-09-17 09:29:49 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1082 2013-09-17 09:29:53 <thermoman> is this something i should be worried about when switching from 0.7.x to 0.8.5?
1083 2013-09-17 09:30:14 rdymac has joined
1084 2013-09-17 09:30:30 ahmedbodi is now known as ahmedbodi-afk
1085 2013-09-17 09:30:31 <sipa> we've seen corruption both with old and with new nodes
1086 2013-09-17 09:30:35 <nkuttler> sipa: nice, ty
1087 2013-09-17 09:30:38 <sipa> it manifests differently, though
1088 2013-09-17 09:31:25 <thermoman> what about robustness? can leveldb survive a crash?
1089 2013-09-17 09:31:33 <sipa> it definitely should
1090 2013-09-17 09:31:42 <sipa> but it doesn't for everyone
1091 2013-09-17 09:31:57 <thermoman> worst case? reindex for 2 hours?
1092 2013-09-17 09:32:10 <sipa> i've personally never ever seen it corrupt on crash, and that is including pulling a power plug
1093 2013-09-17 09:32:21 <sipa> but others see it fail every time pretty muh
1094 2013-09-17 09:32:42 <sipa> reindex fixes everything yes
1095 2013-09-17 09:33:13 <thermoman> shouldn't the client keep the rpc port closed until the reindex is done?
1096 2013-09-17 09:33:30 <thermoman> 8332 is open on my box doing the reindex thing right now
1097 2013-09-17 09:33:41 <sipa> no, it us functional
1098 2013-09-17 09:33:45 <sipa> *is
1099 2013-09-17 09:34:06 <thermoman> wasn't there a warning that rpc stuff shouldn't be used while the migration is ongoing?
1100 2013-09-17 09:34:16 <sipa> depends for what
1101 2013-09-17 09:34:22 <thermoman> i remember something like that
1102 2013-09-17 09:34:54 <thermoman> there was some issues with a pool i remember when the chain fork happened
1103 2013-09-17 09:35:07 ForceMajeure has joined
1104 2013-09-17 09:35:11 <thermoman> he lost btc due to sending them to pool members
1105 2013-09-17 09:35:23 <sipa> yes
1106 2013-09-17 09:35:27 <thermoman> because the rpc did report wrong info due to the import not being done
1107 2013-09-17 09:36:00 <sipa> sure, it's working its way through history
1108 2013-09-17 09:36:32 hnz has joined
1109 2013-09-17 09:36:51 <thermoman> that's why an option "deny-rpc-while-reindexing" would be handy
1110 2013-09-17 09:37:35 <sipa> it may make sense to disable some rpcs while reindexing
1111 2013-09-17 09:38:14 ForceMajeure_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1112 2013-09-17 09:38:54 <michagogo> Doesn't it already do that for some?
1113 2013-09-17 09:38:57 <michagogo> gbt, for example?
1114 2013-09-17 09:39:33 <sipa> i think getwork and gtb are disabled already yes
1115 2013-09-17 09:39:35 <sipa> gbt
1116 2013-09-17 09:39:42 <michagogo> Or is that only during IBD?
1117 2013-09-17 09:39:59 <sipa> they're considered equivalent in most places
1118 2013-09-17 09:40:05 <michagogo> figured
1119 2013-09-17 09:40:08 <sipa> not exactly sure though
1120 2013-09-17 09:40:09 <michagogo> but wasn't sure
1121 2013-09-17 09:40:27 FluffyBunny has joined
1122 2013-09-17 09:40:32 Coincidental has joined
1123 2013-09-17 09:40:54 <michagogo> Makes sense -- in either case, the node doesn't yet have a full picture of what's happening with the network
1124 2013-09-17 09:41:23 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1125 2013-09-17 09:42:01 <Coincidental> Hey all, I've been working on a Ruby implementation of BIP32 Hierarchical Deterministic Wallets and am about to release the gem.
1126 2013-09-17 09:42:25 <Coincidental> I wanted to run it by you guys here to see if anyone has knowledge of BIP32 and could give it a onceover.
1127 2013-09-17 09:42:34 <Coincidental> https://github.com/wink/money-tree
1128 2013-09-17 09:42:42 <sipa> do you pass the test vectors? :)
1129 2013-09-17 09:42:47 <Coincidental> Yes indeed.
1130 2013-09-17 09:43:11 <Coincidental> 99.96% code coverage
1131 2013-09-17 09:43:34 <sipa> hmm, what specifically isn't being tested?
1132 2013-09-17 09:43:44 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1133 2013-09-17 09:44:42 <Coincidental> testnet
1134 2013-09-17 09:44:57 <sipa> irony :)
1135 2013-09-17 09:45:11 <michagogo> Lol.
1136 2013-09-17 09:45:21 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1137 2013-09-17 09:45:34 <Coincidental> True =) But I'm not actually sending any messages to the network. This is just creating wallets and importing wallets.
1138 2013-09-17 09:46:14 <michagogo> Well, adding testnet support is fairly trivial, no?
1139 2013-09-17 09:46:14 rdymac has joined
1140 2013-09-17 09:46:20 <michagogo> Just use a different version byte.
1141 2013-09-17 09:46:20 <Coincidental> (and exporting serialized keys, etc.)
1142 2013-09-17 09:46:47 <Coincidental> The version byte for testnet is implemented, I just haven't gotten around to writing the test. I'll be sure to do it tomorrow.
1143 2013-09-17 09:46:53 <michagogo> Ah
1144 2013-09-17 09:47:18 <Coincidental> But mainly I'm looking for someone to read over my readme, and if you have ruby knowledge, at least make sure I'm doing things sanely.
1145 2013-09-17 09:47:32 <Coincidental> I just don't want to put out an unsafe product.
1146 2013-09-17 09:47:40 <Coincidental> And crypto is brand new to me.
1147 2013-09-17 09:48:20 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1148 2013-09-17 09:48:50 <michagogo> Are the bitcoin-list and -test mailing lists used?
1149 2013-09-17 09:49:33 cypher has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1150 2013-09-17 09:50:44 cypher has joined
1151 2013-09-17 09:50:46 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1152 2013-09-17 09:52:17 <Coincidental> Maybe I'll just post this on the bitcoin-development list, hopefully someone will take a look.
1153 2013-09-17 09:52:44 rdymac has joined
1154 2013-09-17 09:53:42 <Coincidental> Although, sipa, you're my man since you gave that awesome talk at the Bitcoin conf on BIP32. =)
1155 2013-09-17 09:56:22 <sipa> Coincidental: thanks :)
1156 2013-09-17 09:56:34 <sipa> i know no ruby though
1157 2013-09-17 09:57:34 <Coincidental> sipa, that's ok, I mainly want to make sure that my README is correct, because I try to explain BIP32 in depth to the layperson, and I'm not sure if I have all the details correct.
1158 2013-09-17 10:03:35 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1159 2013-09-17 10:03:46 graingert has joined
1160 2013-09-17 10:05:28 Someguy123 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1161 2013-09-17 10:07:22 Someguy123 has joined
1162 2013-09-17 10:08:44 rdymac has joined
1163 2013-09-17 10:14:05 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1164 2013-09-17 10:18:31 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1165 2013-09-17 10:19:15 rdymac has joined
1166 2013-09-17 10:22:51 rdymac_ has joined
1167 2013-09-17 10:23:30 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1168 2013-09-17 10:23:36 nomailing has joined
1169 2013-09-17 10:23:40 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1170 2013-09-17 10:23:40 rdymac_ is now known as rdymac
1171 2013-09-17 10:28:39 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1172 2013-09-17 10:30:51 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1173 2013-09-17 10:32:14 rdymac has joined
1174 2013-09-17 10:32:41 [BNC]dansmithbtc has quit (Quit: I'm using a Free IRC Bouncer from BNC4FREE - http://bnc4free.com/)
1175 2013-09-17 10:33:57 bmcgee has joined
1176 2013-09-17 10:35:04 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1177 2013-09-17 10:35:50 CryptoBuck has joined
1178 2013-09-17 10:36:42 roconnor has joined
1179 2013-09-17 10:42:28 johba has joined
1180 2013-09-17 10:44:59 sensorii has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1181 2013-09-17 10:45:42 saulimus has joined
1182 2013-09-17 10:45:47 Eiii has quit ()
1183 2013-09-17 10:48:46 TD has joined
1184 2013-09-17 10:49:19 cypher has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1185 2013-09-17 10:51:25 sensorii has joined
1186 2013-09-17 10:51:51 cypher has joined
1187 2013-09-17 10:54:24 melvster has joined
1188 2013-09-17 10:59:31 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1189 2013-09-17 11:01:06 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
1190 2013-09-17 11:04:14 thrasher`` has quit (Changing host)
1191 2013-09-17 11:04:14 thrasher`` has joined
1192 2013-09-17 11:07:34 elgrecoFL has quit (Changing host)
1193 2013-09-17 11:07:34 elgrecoFL has joined
1194 2013-09-17 11:07:56 elgrecoFL has quit (Excess Flood)
1195 2013-09-17 11:08:13 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1196 2013-09-17 11:09:19 Arnavion has quit (Disconnected by services)
1197 2013-09-17 11:09:26 Arnavion has joined
1198 2013-09-17 11:09:40 iddo has joined
1199 2013-09-17 11:10:02 elgrecoFL has joined
1200 2013-09-17 11:16:06 michagogo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1201 2013-09-17 11:16:49 michagogo has joined
1202 2013-09-17 11:17:20 Arnavion has quit (Disconnected by services)
1203 2013-09-17 11:17:26 Arnavion3 has joined
1204 2013-09-17 11:17:30 Arnavion3 is now known as Arnavion
1205 2013-09-17 11:18:02 macboz has joined
1206 2013-09-17 11:23:50 ahmedbodi-afk has left ()
1207 2013-09-17 11:23:54 crank_ is now known as crank
1208 2013-09-17 11:29:21 paraipan has joined
1209 2013-09-17 11:29:38 idstam has joined
1210 2013-09-17 11:32:45 one_zero has quit ()
1211 2013-09-17 11:33:57 jgarzik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1212 2013-09-17 11:39:46 paybitcoin1 has joined
1213 2013-09-17 11:41:02 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1214 2013-09-17 11:41:29 digitalmagus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1215 2013-09-17 11:41:46 digitalmagus has joined
1216 2013-09-17 11:44:35 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
1217 2013-09-17 11:46:40 darkee has joined
1218 2013-09-17 11:49:51 djcoin has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
1219 2013-09-17 11:50:24 djcoin has joined
1220 2013-09-17 11:51:17 twobitcoins_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1221 2013-09-17 11:51:44 twobitcoins_ has joined
1222 2013-09-17 11:54:57 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1223 2013-09-17 11:56:06 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
1224 2013-09-17 11:57:08 Belxjander has joined
1225 2013-09-17 11:57:44 rdymac has joined
1226 2013-09-17 12:00:44 Avatar has joined
1227 2013-09-17 12:01:55 Avatar has left ()
1228 2013-09-17 12:02:35 Avvy has joined
1229 2013-09-17 12:02:45 bmcgee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1230 2013-09-17 12:02:58 Tom_Soft has joined
1231 2013-09-17 12:03:05 bmcgee has joined
1232 2013-09-17 12:03:40 discretefx has joined
1233 2013-09-17 12:04:07 <Avvy> Hi all.
1234 2013-09-17 12:04:18 twobitcoins_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1235 2013-09-17 12:04:42 twobitcoins_ has joined
1236 2013-09-17 12:05:03 <Avvy> I'm trying to create a Bitcoin application that stores keypairs independently of the Bitcoin library I'm using... i.e. in a secure database, rather than a wallet.
1237 2013-09-17 12:05:16 <Avvy> Looked at a few libraries for this... now currently looking at BitcoinJ.
1238 2013-09-17 12:05:28 <TD> hi there
1239 2013-09-17 12:05:34 <Avvy> Anyone else done something like this?
1240 2013-09-17 12:05:55 <TD> yeah
1241 2013-09-17 12:06:04 discrete has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1242 2013-09-17 12:06:05 <TD> one guy is working on integrating bitcoinj with Trezor
1243 2013-09-17 12:06:15 <TD> another guy is doing a project to store keys and do signing of txns in a yubikey neo
1244 2013-09-17 12:06:23 <TD> (with bitcoinj again)
1245 2013-09-17 12:06:36 <Avvy> Ok, looks like I'm on the right track with BitcoinJ....
1246 2013-09-17 12:06:51 <Avvy> I briefly looked at BOP... but that seemed kinda not working?  Experience with that?
1247 2013-09-17 12:06:53 <Diablo-D3> if only Avvy knew who he was talking to
1248 2013-09-17 12:06:56 <Avvy> Bits of Proof
1249 2013-09-17 12:07:04 <TD> i've not tried it. i'm not aware of any reports it doesn't work
1250 2013-09-17 12:07:10 <TD> how do you mean it doesn't work?
1251 2013-09-17 12:08:11 <Avvy> TD... "it doesn't work" is probably unfair... it might... it had little documentation, and had lots of various errors upon startup... it didn't seem robust and stable.  It might work if persisted with it.  BitcoinJ seemed to be better supported in the community.
1252 2013-09-17 12:08:36 bmcgee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1253 2013-09-17 12:08:54 saulimus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1254 2013-09-17 12:08:56 bmcgee has joined
1255 2013-09-17 12:09:04 <TD> ok. fyi the BOP author accepts money in return for support, if you're in the kind of situation where that is reasonable. otherwise sure, go ahead and use bcj
1256 2013-09-17 12:09:32 <TD> be aware that if you want to do server side stuff for lots and lots of users simultaneously though, the core Wallet class in bcj doesn't scale very well
1257 2013-09-17 12:09:38 * TD is unaware of any open source wallets that scale well
1258 2013-09-17 12:10:02 <TD> if what you're thinking of is more an app that users download and run themselves, it can be appropriate though
1259 2013-09-17 12:10:22 <Avvy> TD... that was my impression also.  I was considering wrapping BitcoinJ up, and running multiple instances of it... each with their own blockchain.... so it becomes a little bit more scalable that way.
1260 2013-09-17 12:10:26 CodeShark has quit (Quit: Goodbye)
1261 2013-09-17 12:10:44 <Avvy> The idea I had was to create a wallet... import keys as I need them... do something... then remove the keys from the wallet.
1262 2013-09-17 12:10:45 darkskiez has joined
1263 2013-09-17 12:10:45 darkskiez has quit (Changing host)
1264 2013-09-17 12:10:45 darkskiez has joined
1265 2013-09-17 12:10:56 <Avvy> So the BitcoinJ service doesn't have access to all addresses.
1266 2013-09-17 12:11:01 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1267 2013-09-17 12:11:06 <Avvy> (And keys etc)
1268 2013-09-17 12:11:31 <TD> if you want to do that you also need to insert/remove transactions as well, so the wallet knows what it can spend
1269 2013-09-17 12:11:50 <TD> like i said, if you want to do that server side, it's more work because you need full random access to all transactions (or at least unspent outputs)
1270 2013-09-17 12:11:58 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1271 2013-09-17 12:12:26 <Avvy> TD, may I ask your involvement?  Are you a developer with BitcoinJ?
1272 2013-09-17 12:12:30 <TD> i wrote most of it
1273 2013-09-17 12:12:45 <Avvy> TD... would you be interested in paid work... if so, may we speak privately?
1274 2013-09-17 12:12:52 <TD> i'm not available for paid work at the moment i'm afraid
1275 2013-09-17 12:12:57 <Avvy> Fair enough.
1276 2013-09-17 12:13:15 <TD> if you ask on the mailing list, perhaps someone there is
1277 2013-09-17 12:13:36 <TD> you could also contact bitcoin solutions ltd. that's gary and jim. together they have some experience with bitcoinj and may accept paid contract work
1278 2013-09-17 12:13:56 <TD> gary.rowe@bitcoin-solutions.co.uk
1279 2013-09-17 12:14:00 <Avvy> Ok, I'll look them up.  I notice there is a comment in BitcoinJ that says...
1280 2013-09-17 12:14:14 rdymac has joined
1281 2013-09-17 12:14:27 <Avvy> (sorry, looking)
1282 2013-09-17 12:14:48 <Avvy> "Note that adding multiple wallets is not well tested!"
1283 2013-09-17 12:15:03 <TD> indeed
1284 2013-09-17 12:15:09 <Avvy> Is it not really feasible to have multiple wallets, all pointing to the same Blockchain?
1285 2013-09-17 12:15:18 <Avvy> (Thanks for the email btw)
1286 2013-09-17 12:15:22 bmcgee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1287 2013-09-17 12:15:40 bmcgee has joined
1288 2013-09-17 12:15:51 <TD> it's feasible, but the unit tests don't cover that case. and there are some caveats. jim burton (also with bsol) wrote extra code to make multibit handle multiple wallets simultaneously but it was never contributed/merged back upstream
1289 2013-09-17 12:16:18 <TD> the basic caveat is if you disconnect a wallet, then it obviously won't get updated from the block chain. when you reconnect it, the block chain won't be re-wound and re-scanned to cover the missing sections
1290 2013-09-17 12:16:43 <TD> jim wrote a replay manager that handles that. alternatively of course, you can just run multiple instances of the library (so you get multiple blockchains and wallets together)
1291 2013-09-17 12:16:43 discretefx has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1292 2013-09-17 12:17:13 discrete has joined
1293 2013-09-17 12:17:18 <Avvy> Yes... I've been considering running multiple instances of the library for that purpose.
1294 2013-09-17 12:17:19 <TD> alternatively, you can store transactions in an indexed database, and then use the Wallet independently, without having it talk to the network at all
1295 2013-09-17 12:17:30 <TD> then you just use Wallet as a "bag of keys and transactions" which knows how to create spends
1296 2013-09-17 12:17:37 Polyatomic has quit (Quit: Catcha Round)
1297 2013-09-17 12:17:58 <Avvy> Well, let me put the question to you another way...
1298 2013-09-17 12:18:14 <Avvy> I want to create a Service... which handles everything to do with Bitcoin network interaction....
1299 2013-09-17 12:18:17 <TD> if you want to have lots and lots of users server side, that's the best way to go about it currently. some people have done that, but mostly they don't submit anything upstream, so i have no documentation or example apps to help with that case :(
1300 2013-09-17 12:18:41 <Avvy> I want to have 1 main method SendMoney(amount, destinationAddress)
1301 2013-09-17 12:18:53 <Avvy> But this service, I don't want to know about any of the private keys from which it can spend money.
1302 2013-09-17 12:18:59 <Avvy> I want it to go to another service....
1303 2013-09-17 12:19:02 <TD> when you say "service" you mean some company that exposes a web service to developers, or what?
1304 2013-09-17 12:19:07 <Avvy> and do something like ReleaseFunds(amount)
1305 2013-09-17 12:19:32 <Avvy> which will give some keys it needs to spend... then the Bitcoin service can spend the money, but it doesn't have access to all funds we have available.
1306 2013-09-17 12:19:42 <Avvy> Does that make sense?  and do you have a recommended approach using BitcoinJ?
1307 2013-09-17 12:19:53 <TD> so you want to implement something like blockchain.info ? i still don't get what you really want to do here. your description is very low level
1308 2013-09-17 12:20:09 <Avvy> Ok, I will try to explain it better....
1309 2013-09-17 12:20:27 valparaiso_ has joined
1310 2013-09-17 12:20:31 bmcgee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1311 2013-09-17 12:20:52 bmcgee has joined
1312 2013-09-17 12:20:56 <Avvy> Let's say I am holding 1,000 bitcoin... which were all sent to various addresses, and various private keys for spending that money.
1313 2013-09-17 12:21:18 <Avvy> I want all of those private keys stored securely in a database somewhere that knows nothing about Bitcoin... it just knows about storing keys.
1314 2013-09-17 12:21:58 <Avvy> I want to create a Bitcoin service (using BitcoinJ) that can spend that money... but it will only get enough private keypairs at a time, so it can't accidentally spend 1,000 bitcoins at once.
1315 2013-09-17 12:21:59 <Avvy> i.e.
1316 2013-09-17 12:22:07 <Avvy> I might wnat to send someone 10 bitcoins...
1317 2013-09-17 12:22:43 <Avvy> So I can go to my storageSErvice... ask for 10 bitcoins.... and it might give me the keypairs to spend, say 15 bitcoin... but the other 9985 are secured still.
1318 2013-09-17 12:23:02 <Avvy> it's a way of protecting the coins from accidental or malicious spending by the bitcoin service.
1319 2013-09-17 12:23:04 <TD> i see
1320 2013-09-17 12:23:38 <TD> how would the (remote?) key storage service know how many keys to release? i mean, how does it validate the spend you want to create is "legit"?
1321 2013-09-17 12:23:40 valparaiso has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1322 2013-09-17 12:23:40 valparaiso_ is now known as valparaiso
1323 2013-09-17 12:24:15 <Avvy> the key storage service would also have an "expected balance"... it wouldn't know the true balance, but it would know the last known balance it was told.
1324 2013-09-17 12:24:18 <Avvy> and it would release that amount
1325 2013-09-17 12:24:34 <Avvy> the bitcoin service would also store those private keypairs in the storage service, advising of the balance.
1326 2013-09-17 12:25:18 <Avvy> the expected balance should, in most cases match the real balance unless money was stolen somehow, or someone deposited more than expected funds.
1327 2013-09-17 12:26:14 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1328 2013-09-17 12:26:20 <TD> well, my point is this. your security assumption is that the users device is compromised, and the key storage service will therefore help shield him from damage caused by his compromised device, is that right
1329 2013-09-17 12:26:48 <Avvy> yes, that's right.
1330 2013-09-17 12:26:57 <TD> so let's say i put 10 btc into this system of yours
1331 2013-09-17 12:27:08 <TD> and now the key store service gets a command that says  "release all keys, so i can get my 10 btc back"
1332 2013-09-17 12:27:13 <TD> how does it know whether to comply or not?
1333 2013-09-17 12:27:40 <Avvy> it will have additional checks... about how much money it can release in one day... plus some manual approval process to validate the fund requests.
1334 2013-09-17 12:27:53 <TD> ok, sure. that's the part i was missing
1335 2013-09-17 12:28:05 <Avvy> cool
1336 2013-09-17 12:28:16 <TD> so the answer is that yes, you can do that in a variety of ways. yes, bitcoinj can implement that fairly easily. for instance, you'd probably want to start by adapting a desktop wallet like multibit
1337 2013-09-17 12:28:19 <TD> (or writing your own of course)
1338 2013-09-17 12:28:45 <TD> the wallet can hold keys that don't have any private part
1339 2013-09-17 12:29:02 <TD> when creating a transaction that tries to spend such keys, bcj will (since yesterday!) create a dummy signature that's of about the right size, but isn't valid
1340 2013-09-17 12:29:21 reizuki__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1341 2013-09-17 12:29:32 <TD> so you'd take the tx and instead of letting it be broadcast as normal, send it to the server along with the public keys that were being used to create the spend (if necessary - for spending "send to address" outputs the key is already in the tx)
1342 2013-09-17 12:29:37 <Avvy> Ok, looking at MultiiBit now.
1343 2013-09-17 12:29:55 <TD> the server then applies its risk analysis or whatever checks, and if those pass, proceeds to calculate the correct signatures. it would then give the signatures back to the client.
1344 2013-09-17 12:30:08 <TD> of course, the server can steal all your money. so in practice you probably want to implement this using multi-signature outputs
1345 2013-09-17 12:30:33 <TD> so two keys are required (from both client and server)
1346 2013-09-17 12:30:36 <TD> however that'd require more work
1347 2013-09-17 12:30:39 <Avvy> ahh... so just so I understand the relationship here...
1348 2013-09-17 12:30:47 <Avvy> Multibit is a layer atop BitcoinJ?
1349 2013-09-17 12:30:51 <TD> yes
1350 2013-09-17 12:30:55 <Avvy> All in Java?
1351 2013-09-17 12:30:58 <TD> yes
1352 2013-09-17 12:31:04 Thepok has joined
1353 2013-09-17 12:31:06 <TD> multibit is basically a gui on top of bcj
1354 2013-09-17 12:31:13 <TD> (it's a swing app)
1355 2013-09-17 12:31:23 <Avvy> and MultiBit has its own library - i.e. I don't actually want a GUI... I'm actually creating two Services... there is no GUI.
1356 2013-09-17 12:32:09 <TD> well if there's no GUI, how will people use your service? but if you just want to write a library then you'd just write it as a layer on top of bitcoinj
1357 2013-09-17 12:32:14 rdymac has joined
1358 2013-09-17 12:32:19 <TD> it wouldn't be much code. i mean, the risk analysis is obviously of arbitrary complexity.
1359 2013-09-17 12:32:49 <Avvy> TD... it will be a service, and there will be a separate WebUI interface to it.
1360 2013-09-17 12:32:54 <TD> but just having some code that takes a dummy-signed transaction and sends it to the server for re-signing is like a few hundred lines of code
1361 2013-09-17 12:33:03 <Avvy> so actually, 3 things... WebUI (which we didn't talk about), the BitcoinService and StorageService
1362 2013-09-17 12:33:13 <TD> well, that's a whole other kettle of fish
1363 2013-09-17 12:33:17 <TD> where does the webui come from?
1364 2013-09-17 12:33:23 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1365 2013-09-17 12:33:25 <Avvy> I'll build it.
1366 2013-09-17 12:33:29 <Avvy> it's new.
1367 2013-09-17 12:33:52 <TD> i mean, where is it served from in your system?
1368 2013-09-17 12:34:27 <TD> (i.e. who controls it)
1369 2013-09-17 12:34:47 <Avvy> you mean in terms of the network and firewalls?  I don't completely understand the question?
1370 2013-09-17 12:35:31 <TD> yeah. i mean what does the user experience look like? see this is why i asked for a high level description. you're asking about the low level details of how to implement your design, but building bitcoin apps and services is not like most other programming tasks.
1371 2013-09-17 12:35:35 <TD> it's always good to get a high level design review
1372 2013-09-17 12:35:42 <Avvy> Sure....
1373 2013-09-17 12:35:52 <TD> for instance, if your web ui is like a regular website, then that means effectively whoever serves the website controls the money
1374 2013-09-17 12:36:10 <TD> (within the bounds of what the risk analysis allows)
1375 2013-09-17 12:36:24 <Avvy> So there's a public facing Web UI, which will be built by us, and operated by us, that will allow users to deposit/withdraw Bitcoins into an account we host....
1376 2013-09-17 12:36:25 <TD> it also means you have to compete against other wallets, which can be a lot of work
1377 2013-09-17 12:37:16 <Avvy> Now the WebUI talks to the BitcoinService.... which talks to the Bitcoin network itself.... but the BitcoinService doesn't have access to spend any money, it has no keys....
1378 2013-09-17 12:37:36 <Avvy> It has to talk to the Vault Service which will store keys.... and so the BitcoinService just requests as much as it needs.
1379 2013-09-17 12:37:44 rdymac has joined
1380 2013-09-17 12:37:47 <warren> hmm, with make anyone know how to print out all the defined preprocessor variables during that make session?
1381 2013-09-17 12:37:50 <Avvy> The Storage Service has various logic to limit how much it gives (i.e.. it won't give all the money it has)
1382 2013-09-17 12:38:44 <TD> and who runs the storage service?
1383 2013-09-17 12:38:57 <Avvy> We will run and control all 3 services.
1384 2013-09-17 12:39:27 <TD> so what you want to build is basically a bank, with some internal risk controls, on the assumption that your web server might get hacked but your storage service won't?
1385 2013-09-17 12:39:51 johba has quit (Quit: johba)
1386 2013-09-17 12:40:26 <Avvy> Well, basically yes.  Distribution of responsibility... it makes it more difficult to compromise the system (and not just from malicious hacking, but bugs in code etc. as well)
1387 2013-09-17 12:41:27 <Avvy> Does that make sense?
1388 2013-09-17 12:41:40 djcoin has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
1389 2013-09-17 12:42:12 <sipa> warren: if you can pass -save-templs (i think) to gcc, you get all preprocessed files as .i files
1390 2013-09-17 12:42:21 <sipa> -fsave-temps maybe
1391 2013-09-17 12:42:42 <TD> yes, but it's rather different to the usual bitcoin model
1392 2013-09-17 12:42:49 <sipa> -save-temps
1393 2013-09-17 12:43:01 <Avvy> TD... yes, so I've noticed.
1394 2013-09-17 12:43:07 <TD> as i said at the start, bitcoinj is not designed to run large server-side wallets. some people have used parts of it to do that, but it's not something that's well supported.
1395 2013-09-17 12:43:33 <TD> generally bitcoin users try to avoid putting their money into bitbanks
1396 2013-09-17 12:43:45 djcoin has joined
1397 2013-09-17 12:43:45 <TD> such services have a history of going wrong, often dramatically so
1398 2013-09-17 12:43:57 <Avvy> Yes, that is true.
1399 2013-09-17 12:44:18 <TD> indeed, one can argue that the entire point of bitcoin is to not need banks anymore.
1400 2013-09-17 12:44:24 <Avvy> But regardless... do you think it's possible to separate the secure keys needed for spending transactions using BitcoinJ?
1401 2013-09-17 12:44:47 <TD> sure, it's possible. it's just a library. as i said, you can create a wallet that holds only public keys, load it with transactions, create spends for them. it'll generate dummy signatures instead of real ones.
1402 2013-09-17 12:44:59 <TD> then you replace the dummy sigs with actual sigs calculated by the server that has the keys.
1403 2013-09-17 12:45:23 <TD> but bitcoinj won't help you with loading and unloading lots of wallets dynamically. you can certainly load a wallet from a database, but it won't magically come into sync with the block chain or anything like that.
1404 2013-09-17 12:45:31 <Avvy> Ok... I will look at BitcoinJ and investigate this further.  Anything else you can add that might help?
1405 2013-09-17 12:46:04 <TD> if you create a bitbank, you will get attacked hard and often by people who know what they are doing.
1406 2013-09-17 12:46:06 jgarzik has joined
1407 2013-09-17 12:46:06 jgarzik has quit (Changing host)
1408 2013-09-17 12:46:06 jgarzik has joined
1409 2013-09-17 12:46:21 <Avvy> Thanks.
1410 2013-09-17 12:46:33 <TD> (some of those people will be regulators)
1411 2013-09-17 12:46:34 <Avvy> And thanks for being so helpful the past 30 minutes... it's rare to come on IRC and get that sort of help.
1412 2013-09-17 12:46:35 <TD> so good luck!
1413 2013-09-17 12:46:42 <Avvy> And appreciate the contact details.
1414 2013-09-17 12:46:47 <TD> no problem
1415 2013-09-17 12:48:16 <Avvy> Bye for now - thanks Mike.
1416 2013-09-17 12:48:34 Avvy has left ()
1417 2013-09-17 12:48:54 <jgarzik> mornin'
1418 2013-09-17 12:49:24 <TD> morning jeff
1419 2013-09-17 12:49:25 splnkr has joined
1420 2013-09-17 12:49:32 * TD wonders why so many people want to create bitbanks so badly
1421 2013-09-17 12:49:44 <TD> they see $$$ i guess
1422 2013-09-17 12:50:59 Rez has joined
1423 2013-09-17 12:51:04 <jgarzik> coinpunk is an interesting project -- open source wallet website.  be your own bank, create than reinventing the wheel code-wise.
1424 2013-09-17 12:51:17 <infinitev> free money is always a good motivator
1425 2013-09-17 12:51:45 Rez is now known as L
1426 2013-09-17 12:51:48 <Diablo-D3> http://www.fwweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/bacon-1024x754.jpg
1427 2013-09-17 12:51:54 L is now known as LoRez
1428 2013-09-17 12:52:12 <infinitev> mm bacon
1429 2013-09-17 12:52:51 <TD> jgarzik: how is that different to just running a wallet app?
1430 2013-09-17 12:53:05 <jgarzik> TD, it's a website
1431 2013-09-17 12:53:14 <jgarzik> TD, you are your own coinbase.com
1432 2013-09-17 12:53:21 <TD> infinitev: running a bitcoin bank is hardly "free money"  given the lack of fractional reserve
1433 2013-09-17 12:53:22 <jgarzik> TD, multi-user
1434 2013-09-17 12:53:37 <jgarzik> TD, MyBitcoin, Tor Wallet … would disagree :)
1435 2013-09-17 12:53:42 <TD> jgarzik: so i have to rent a VPS to run it, essentially? again i fail to see why it's more convenient than a real app
1436 2013-09-17 12:53:51 <TD> well, yes.
1437 2013-09-17 12:53:58 <TD> ok if you assume these people are all scammers then it's free money :)
1438 2013-09-17 12:54:12 <TD> jgarzik: the point of coinbase is i outsource the hassle of running the software.
1439 2013-09-17 12:54:18 <TD> (well, "hassle")
1440 2013-09-17 12:54:58 paybitcoin1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1441 2013-09-17 12:54:59 <jgarzik> TD, it's a midpoint between bc.i and bitcoin-qt
1442 2013-09-17 12:55:14 paybitcoin has joined
1443 2013-09-17 12:55:33 <jgarzik> TD, you can run a wallet service for your less-app-savvy friends
1444 2013-09-17 12:56:12 <TD> so if i forget to apply a security update i lose my friends money? no way am i gonna do that :)
1445 2013-09-17 12:56:39 <sturles> You can easily do fractional reserve with a bitbank.
1446 2013-09-17 12:57:18 <TD> sturles: you have to convince users to accept bitbank-specific IOUs, which basically means getting lots of users into your own system
1447 2013-09-17 12:57:39 <sturles> A deposits btc in bank, B lends btc to buy something from C who deposits the btc in his wallet in bitbank.  D makes a loan and buys from C as well.  etc.
1448 2013-09-17 12:58:23 <sturles> Yes, you need more than one user, and you need to match deposits and lending.
1449 2013-09-17 12:58:29 <TD> yes, like i said, if you can convince people to send payments internally to the bank that don't appear on the block chain, no problem
1450 2013-09-17 12:59:03 <sturles> Well, you need a reserve.  (Which is the reserve part in fractional reserve.)
1451 2013-09-17 12:59:27 <sturles> And with the reserve, sending payments through the blockchain is no problem either.
1452 2013-09-17 12:59:33 <infinitev> TD --> i know that, its just the misconception that it is "Free" money that is the draw card
1453 2013-09-17 12:59:41 <TD> historically fractional reserve worked because banks could issue bank notes which became as trusted as the gold they held in their vaults.
1454 2013-09-17 12:59:47 <TD> infinitev: yeah maybe.
1455 2013-09-17 12:59:54 <TD> perhaps they don't think through the complexities
1456 2013-09-17 13:00:03 <infinitev> few do
1457 2013-09-17 13:00:14 <sturles> TD: Nah, it works more or less like I explained above.
1458 2013-09-17 13:00:31 <sturles> TD: Banks lend out other peoples deposits.
1459 2013-09-17 13:00:39 <sturles> TD: Creating money that way.
1460 2013-09-17 13:01:04 djcoin has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
1461 2013-09-17 13:01:38 <infinitev> we all know what happened to the gold standard
1462 2013-09-17 13:02:02 <sturles> Both the people who deposited and the people who borrowed money think they have money.  It is all fake.
1463 2013-09-17 13:02:08 <infinitev> banks only need 10% of the principle
1464 2013-09-17 13:02:20 <infinitev> so they don't lend out others deposits as such
1465 2013-09-17 13:02:36 <infinitev> they borrow money from the reserve bank
1466 2013-09-17 13:02:37 gmaxwell_ has quit (Changing host)
1467 2013-09-17 13:02:37 gmaxwell_ has joined
1468 2013-09-17 13:02:42 gmaxwell_ is now known as gmaxwell
1469 2013-09-17 13:03:00 <infinitev> money that never existed before it was lent
1470 2013-09-17 13:03:17 <sturles> They do lend out other peoples deposits.
1471 2013-09-17 13:03:47 <sturles> It is not like they have a big money bin for deposits, and then borrow money from some reserve bank to lend out money.  They lend out deposits.
1472 2013-09-17 13:03:50 <infinitev> they may lend parts of many people's deposits
1473 2013-09-17 13:03:56 <infinitev> but not their whole deposits
1474 2013-09-17 13:03:59 <sturles> Yes, like 90%.
1475 2013-09-17 13:04:04 <infinitev> as i said
1476 2013-09-17 13:04:10 <sturles> The 10% is the reserve.
1477 2013-09-17 13:04:21 <infinitev> principle
1478 2013-09-17 13:04:23 <sturles> Which is why it is called fractional reserve.
1479 2013-09-17 13:04:32 <kjj> your thinking will be much clearer if you think of all money as abstract rather than fake.  the fake money the bank creates is no different from any other fake money
1480 2013-09-17 13:05:21 <sipa> sturles: if you borrow money from a bank, all that happens is the number on your account increases - no other number elsewhere decreases
1481 2013-09-17 13:05:40 <sipa> there are limits to what extent this is allowed, but no, they're not giving you the money others gave them
1482 2013-09-17 13:05:44 <sipa> or at least not entirely
1483 2013-09-17 13:06:07 <TD> yeah, i guess i was saying that if the fractional reserve bitbank were to be lending out deposits in bitcoins, it's very unstable as there's no central bank to bail you out. in practice i think that would make it prohibitively difficult unless they were very upfront about it -  the moment someone suspected they were fractional there'd be a run on the bank
1484 2013-09-17 13:06:22 <infinitev> sipa > agreed
1485 2013-09-17 13:06:22 <TD> fractional reserve banking was pretty chaotic before the lenders-of-last-resort were created
1486 2013-09-17 13:06:36 kadoban has joined
1487 2013-09-17 13:07:47 <sturles> sipa: Yes, but they must have a part of it secured in deposits.  Or borrowed in the market.  Their reserves decrease.
1488 2013-09-17 13:08:05 <kjj> sturles: why do you think that?
1489 2013-09-17 13:08:05 <sipa> yes, a part :)
1490 2013-09-17 13:08:15 <sipa> a small part
1491 2013-09-17 13:08:41 bizoro has joined
1492 2013-09-17 13:08:41 bizoro has quit (Changing host)
1493 2013-09-17 13:08:41 bizoro has joined
1494 2013-09-17 13:08:45 <kjj> reserves are normally found after the loan, not before
1495 2013-09-17 13:08:46 <sturles> kjj: Regulations decleare how large their reserves must be.
1496 2013-09-17 13:08:57 Subo1977 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1497 2013-09-17 13:09:31 <TD> in practice the regulatory minimums have been progressively reduced over time
1498 2013-09-17 13:09:31 saulimus has joined
1499 2013-09-17 13:09:39 Subo1977 has joined
1500 2013-09-17 13:09:40 <kjj> the regulations are not meaningful.  the constraint on lending today (for the last 4-5 years) is finding creditworthy borrowers
1501 2013-09-17 13:09:41 <TD> last time i checked the bank of england claimed they were commercially sensitive and refused to release them, even
1502 2013-09-17 13:09:53 agricocb has joined
1503 2013-09-17 13:10:09 <sipa> TD: wut?
1504 2013-09-17 13:10:25 <infinitev> i thought they were throwing money at people
1505 2013-09-17 13:10:35 fanquake has left ()
1506 2013-09-17 13:10:37 <kjj> before 2008, yes.  after, not so much
1507 2013-09-17 13:11:00 <infinitev> fucking ben bernanke
1508 2013-09-17 13:11:23 <kjj> yeah, because he built the system over the last 100 years all by himself
1509 2013-09-17 13:11:24 <infinitev> has anyone ever done any research into his financial credentials
1510 2013-09-17 13:11:28 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1511 2013-09-17 13:11:46 StarenseN has quit (Quit: StarenseN)
1512 2013-09-17 13:11:53 <infinitev> you will find him to have failed many times over before his appointment to the reserve bank
1513 2013-09-17 13:12:12 <infinitev> he sucked a lot of cocks to get where he is thats for sure
1514 2013-09-17 13:13:15 rdymac has joined
1515 2013-09-17 13:13:18 i2pRelay has joined
1516 2013-09-17 13:13:21 <kjj> he's an academic economist.  what were you expecting from him?
1517 2013-09-17 13:13:38 <infinitev> kjj > lol fair point :P
1518 2013-09-17 13:13:40 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1519 2013-09-17 13:14:26 <infinitev> on a lighter note, our new Australian PM canned the science minister position
1520 2013-09-17 13:14:39 <infinitev> so for the first time in 90 odd years we don't have a science minister
1521 2013-09-17 13:14:49 <kjj> academic economics is essentially a branch of extreme Keynesianism.  The ivory tower will admit no limits to what the government can accomplish
1522 2013-09-17 13:14:49 <infinitev> thats one way to deny climate change ;)
1523 2013-09-17 13:15:04 johba has joined
1524 2013-09-17 13:15:15 MobGod has joined
1525 2013-09-17 13:16:13 <infinitev> kjj, I haven't heard that relationship made before.. but I like it
1526 2013-09-17 13:16:54 <jgarzik> Let's keep it on-topic please
1527 2013-09-17 13:16:56 <infinitev> not the fact that it is like that, but the fact that you saw it
1528 2013-09-17 13:17:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1529 2013-09-17 13:17:08 <infinitev> lol
1530 2013-09-17 13:17:47 Insti has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1531 2013-09-17 13:19:35 robbak_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1532 2013-09-17 13:19:38 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1533 2013-09-17 13:19:47 moarrr has joined
1534 2013-09-17 13:19:58 moarrr has left ()
1535 2013-09-17 13:20:07 robbak_ has joined
1536 2013-09-17 13:21:15 digitalmagus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1537 2013-09-17 13:21:29 patcon has joined
1538 2013-09-17 13:21:30 digitalmagus has joined
1539 2013-09-17 13:21:31 digitalmagus has quit (Changing host)
1540 2013-09-17 13:21:31 digitalmagus has joined
1541 2013-09-17 13:23:04 MobGod has joined
1542 2013-09-17 13:23:13 Insti has joined
1543 2013-09-17 13:24:26 i2pRelay has joined
1544 2013-09-17 13:24:28 <TD> infinitev: oh dear. that's the guy who thinks global warming is crap, right?
1545 2013-09-17 13:24:47 <infinitev> Tony Abbot :(
1546 2013-09-17 13:25:20 <infinitev> yeah thats pretty much his stance
1547 2013-09-17 13:26:33 helo_ is now known as helo
1548 2013-09-17 13:26:37 reizuki__ has joined
1549 2013-09-17 13:26:37 reizuki__ has quit (Changing host)
1550 2013-09-17 13:26:37 reizuki__ has joined
1551 2013-09-17 13:27:50 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1552 2013-09-17 13:28:29 reizuki__ has quit (Client Quit)
1553 2013-09-17 13:28:43 johnsoft has joined
1554 2013-09-17 13:34:18 Julius129 has joined
1555 2013-09-17 13:35:14 kadoban has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1556 2013-09-17 13:37:16 johba has quit (Quit: johba)
1557 2013-09-17 13:38:31 wallet43 has joined
1558 2013-09-17 13:42:26 normanrichards has joined
1559 2013-09-17 13:44:55 BurtyB has joined
1560 2013-09-17 13:51:03 yubrew has joined
1561 2013-09-17 13:58:24 CheckDavid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1562 2013-09-17 13:58:25 djcoin has joined
1563 2013-09-17 14:02:31 CheckDavid has joined
1564 2013-09-17 14:03:06 normanrichards has quit ()
1565 2013-09-17 14:03:51 iwilcox has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1566 2013-09-17 14:05:36 djcoin has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
1567 2013-09-17 14:07:05 djcoin has joined
1568 2013-09-17 14:08:36 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1569 2013-09-17 14:09:57 Arnavion has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1570 2013-09-17 14:10:17 Arnavion has joined
1571 2013-09-17 14:10:51 iwilcox has joined
1572 2013-09-17 14:11:04 iwilcox is now known as Guest84118
1573 2013-09-17 14:11:17 datagutt has joined
1574 2013-09-17 14:11:39 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1575 2013-09-17 14:12:06 Subo1977 has joined
1576 2013-09-17 14:13:20 CheckDavid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1577 2013-09-17 14:14:18 Neil has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1578 2013-09-17 14:14:43 Neil has joined
1579 2013-09-17 14:16:25 BurtyB has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1580 2013-09-17 14:16:58 Julius_129 has joined
1581 2013-09-17 14:17:03 Julius129 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1582 2013-09-17 14:18:48 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1583 2013-09-17 14:21:25 normanrichards has joined
1584 2013-09-17 14:23:26 last1 has joined
1585 2013-09-17 14:24:56 <last1> anyone using pushpool ?
1586 2013-09-17 14:25:18 Julius129 has joined
1587 2013-09-17 14:26:18 btcbtc has joined
1588 2013-09-17 14:26:29 <kinlo> last1: nobody sane would
1589 2013-09-17 14:26:40 <last1> that's what I heard
1590 2013-09-17 14:27:00 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
1591 2013-09-17 14:27:04 <kinlo> good.
1592 2013-09-17 14:27:20 <last1> but even so...if I wanted to play with it
1593 2013-09-17 14:27:37 <last1> I can't get it to write anything to the 'shares' table
1594 2013-09-17 14:28:08 <last1> or rather, it's not writing anything there
1595 2013-09-17 14:28:40 Julius_129 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1596 2013-09-17 14:30:00 BTC0xygen has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1597 2013-09-17 14:30:05 deego has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1598 2013-09-17 14:33:15 imsaguy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1599 2013-09-17 14:33:43 Anduck has joined
1600 2013-09-17 14:33:43 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
1601 2013-09-17 14:33:43 Anduck has joined
1602 2013-09-17 14:35:12 BurtyB has joined
1603 2013-09-17 14:35:33 CheckDavid has joined
1604 2013-09-17 14:35:33 CheckDavid has quit (Changing host)
1605 2013-09-17 14:35:33 CheckDavid has joined
1606 2013-09-17 14:36:56 <Ferroh> Who is kinlo, and why does he have the ability to abuse moderation powers?
1607 2013-09-17 14:37:09 <kinlo> Ferroh: I've warned enough...
1608 2013-09-17 14:37:23 <handle> what did kinlo do?
1609 2013-09-17 14:37:32 <kinlo> just a temporary mute...
1610 2013-09-17 14:38:05 <Ferroh> You gave zero warnings.
1611 2013-09-17 14:38:12 <handle> ah, Ferroh got muted
1612 2013-09-17 14:38:13 <handle> why?
1613 2013-09-17 14:38:18 <Luke-Jr> off-topic
1614 2013-09-17 14:38:23 <jgarzik> take it elsewhere, guys
1615 2013-09-17 14:38:31 <handle> he did give warning though
1616 2013-09-17 14:38:34 <Ferroh> Information theory is off-topic in #bitcoin I guess.
1617 2013-09-17 14:38:37 <handle> kk jgarzik + luke
1618 2013-09-17 14:38:57 <Luke-Jr> nobody reading #bitcoin-dev logs cares
1619 2013-09-17 14:39:16 <Ferroh> Hang on, my warning was " <kinlo> well, time to be more firm now, go to #waterfreezingphilosophy or something.... "?
1620 2013-09-17 14:39:16 <handle> (last off-topic message I'll send here) #bitcoin-otc is a bit more off-topic-friendly, so I'm sure you can continue there
1621 2013-09-17 14:39:18 <Ferroh> I wasn't even talking about that.
1622 2013-09-17 14:39:20 <Ferroh> Other people were.
1623 2013-09-17 14:39:39 <handle> we should bring this to #bitcoin-otc
1624 2013-09-17 14:39:51 handle has joined
1625 2013-09-17 14:39:54 <handle> what the fuck?
1626 2013-09-17 14:40:10 kinlo has joined
1627 2013-09-17 14:40:46 MiningBuddy- has joined
1628 2013-09-17 14:40:52 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1629 2013-09-17 14:41:43 imsaguy has joined
1630 2013-09-17 14:43:13 reizuki__ has joined
1631 2013-09-17 14:43:13 reizuki__ has quit (Changing host)
1632 2013-09-17 14:43:13 reizuki__ has joined
1633 2013-09-17 14:43:39 Subo1977_ has joined
1634 2013-09-17 14:46:47 t7 has quit (Quit: home)
1635 2013-09-17 14:46:59 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1636 2013-09-17 14:47:24 twobitcoins has joined
1637 2013-09-17 14:49:10 <_dr> handle: you were 13 once, too, right?
1638 2013-09-17 14:49:40 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1639 2013-09-17 14:49:54 <handle> _dr: I'm sorry?
1640 2013-09-17 14:49:59 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1641 2013-09-17 14:50:43 johnsoft has joined
1642 2013-09-17 14:51:50 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1643 2013-09-17 14:52:00 <handle> _dr: explain
1644 2013-09-17 14:52:37 bmcgee has joined
1645 2013-09-17 14:52:53 <jgarzik> explain elsewhere, as it is further OT discussion that will yield further kicking
1646 2013-09-17 14:58:08 <handle> jgarzik: I don't appreciate being kicked when *suggesting a different channel* to speak about non-dev topics (and actually *not* contributing to said topic, notice that), and subsequently having someone insult my age without consequence
1647 2013-09-17 14:58:20 handle has left ()
1648 2013-09-17 14:59:10 handle has joined
1649 2013-09-17 15:01:37 handle has joined
1650 2013-09-17 15:03:04 moarrrish has joined
1651 2013-09-17 15:03:49 Wayno has joined
1652 2013-09-17 15:04:02 <Wayno> hi having a issue installing the new bitcoin
1653 2013-09-17 15:04:05 moarrrish has left ()
1654 2013-09-17 15:04:10 <Wayno> checking whether the Boost::Unit_Test_Framework library is available... yes
1655 2013-09-17 15:04:11 <Wayno> configure: error: pkg-config not found.
1656 2013-09-17 15:04:17 <Wayno> wat package is missing?
1657 2013-09-17 15:04:23 <Wayno> since everything is installed
1658 2013-09-17 15:04:29 <handle> Wayno: you don't have pkg-config installed it seems
1659 2013-09-17 15:04:36 <handle> what distro are you running?
1660 2013-09-17 15:04:47 <Wayno> ubunutu 12.04
1661 2013-09-17 15:04:51 <kinlo> Wayno: pkg-config :)
1662 2013-09-17 15:05:02 <kinlo> sometimes it's not that difficult
1663 2013-09-17 15:05:04 <michagogo> Wayno: Have you read build-unix.md?
1664 2013-09-17 15:05:09 <michagogo> or whatever it's called
1665 2013-09-17 15:05:11 <handle> yeah, apt-get install pkg-config (I think)
1666 2013-09-17 15:05:18 <Wayno> lolz seriously
1667 2013-09-17 15:05:34 <Wayno> it is
1668 2013-09-17 15:05:35 <sipa> michagogo: build instructions are outdated, i think
1669 2013-09-17 15:05:43 <sipa> will be updated soon
1670 2013-09-17 15:05:56 <kinlo> Wayno: you did apt-get build-essentials?
1671 2013-09-17 15:05:58 <Wayno> thanks:)
1672 2013-09-17 15:06:08 <Wayno> kinlo i did
1673 2013-09-17 15:06:09 <kinlo> afaik it's included in that package and you might be missing more
1674 2013-09-17 15:06:21 <michagogo> sipa: Well, as of 0.8.3 (not sure about the minor version number) they worked
1675 2013-09-17 15:06:45 <kinlo> michagogo: you might have had some dependencies already installed....
1676 2013-09-17 15:06:59 <Wayno> this is a new server build
1677 2013-09-17 15:07:05 <kinlo> pkg-config is used a lot, it's quickly installed if you have some development packages installed
1678 2013-09-17 15:07:19 <michagogo> kinlo: Idk
1679 2013-09-17 15:11:32 zer0def has quit (Quit: Quit:)
1680 2013-09-17 15:11:39 s7r has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1681 2013-09-17 15:12:10 <Wayno> couple of other missing packages ..>
1682 2013-09-17 15:12:19 <Luke-Jr> Wayno: erm, this "new bitcoin" is unreleased and might be full of bugs.. >.>
1683 2013-09-17 15:12:22 <Wayno> anyways thanks guys :)
1684 2013-09-17 15:12:37 <Luke-Jr> really not a good idea to be using it in production
1685 2013-09-17 15:12:46 <Wayno> 0.8.5
1686 2013-09-17 15:12:50 <Wayno> ?
1687 2013-09-17 15:12:52 <Luke-Jr> 0.8.5 doesn't use configure
1688 2013-09-17 15:13:00 <Wayno> ah crap
1689 2013-09-17 15:13:24 <kinlo> Wayno: git checkout v0.8.5
1690 2013-09-17 15:13:27 <Luke-Jr> ^
1691 2013-09-17 15:13:31 <sipa> ^
1692 2013-09-17 15:13:34 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1693 2013-09-17 15:13:45 <Wayno> i hat egithub
1694 2013-09-17 15:13:51 * Wayno gets stabby
1695 2013-09-17 15:13:55 <sipa> what does github have to do with it?
1696 2013-09-17 15:13:58 s7r has joined
1697 2013-09-17 15:13:58 <handle> ^
1698 2013-09-17 15:14:09 <gmaxwell> I wonder where the expectation that a @#$@# git checkout will give something other than raw untested development code has been coming from? I've seen it elsewhere too.
1699 2013-09-17 15:14:30 <handle> well I mean, can't you checkout a tagged copy?
1700 2013-09-17 15:14:37 <sipa> yes, you can
1701 2013-09-17 15:14:42 <sipa> git checkout <tagname>
1702 2013-09-17 15:14:44 <handle> and I think there are source tarballs on the site even
1703 2013-09-17 15:15:11 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: our lack of proper source releases, probably
1704 2013-09-17 15:15:38 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: nah, not unique to bitcoin
1705 2013-09-17 15:16:00 <Luke-Jr> Wayno: thanks for helping test master's build though! :D
1706 2013-09-17 15:16:11 <handle> I've seen some repos devote master to latest stable, and use a separate dev branch to work
1707 2013-09-17 15:16:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: maybe not unique, but 99.9% of projects out there have official source tarballs
1708 2013-09-17 15:17:05 <Ry4an> Luke-Jr: I don't think that's true anymore.
1709 2013-09-17 15:17:06 <Wayno> np
1710 2013-09-17 15:17:44 Ferroh has joined
1711 2013-09-17 15:17:47 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no, no, I mean I'm seeing the same behavior in places where there is an ordinary source tarball.  (and we do have one-ish but thats a total aside)
1712 2013-09-17 15:17:51 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1713 2013-09-17 15:17:56 <Luke-Jr> ah
1714 2013-09-17 15:18:06 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: Doesn
1715 2013-09-17 15:18:14 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: Doesn't github automatically do tarballs for tags?
1716 2013-09-17 15:18:23 <TD> does anyone know how the transactions that blockchain.info iphone app generates are non-canonical, exactly? i'm wondering if it's possible to fix them server side
1717 2013-09-17 15:18:30 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: yes, but not quite the same thing IMO
1718 2013-09-17 15:18:30 <handle> you can make it give you a tarball for pretty much anything
1719 2013-09-17 15:18:49 <michagogo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tags
1720 2013-09-17 15:18:52 <TD> because this is a fucking embarrassment: http://www.dw.de/the-best-place-to-spend-your-bitcoin-is-at-a-london-pub-if-the-qr-scanners-working/a-17092070
1721 2013-09-17 15:18:55 <michagogo> links to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/archive/v0.8.5.tar.gz
1722 2013-09-17 15:18:56 <Luke-Jr> TD: I think all non-canonical sigs can be fixed serverside
1723 2013-09-17 15:18:58 * TD has no iphone to test with
1724 2013-09-17 15:19:02 <sipa> TD: they can be fixed server-side, yes
1725 2013-09-17 15:19:03 <TD> Luke-Jr: yeah that's what i was thinking
1726 2013-09-17 15:19:03 <kinlo> michagogo: you need to know where to click, most people just go for the fastest solution
1727 2013-09-17 15:19:20 <sipa> TD: though that will change txids, which the wallet may or may not deal well with
1728 2013-09-17 15:19:22 <gmaxwell> fixing them serverside changes the TXID, which will confuse the everlasting @#$@ out of some apps.
1729 2013-09-17 15:19:31 <sipa> !hi5 gmaxwell
1730 2013-09-17 15:19:32 <gribble> Error: "hi5" is not a valid command.
1731 2013-09-17 15:19:34 <gmaxwell> But yea, can be done.
1732 2013-09-17 15:20:06 <gmaxwell> But crazy, didn't that app come into existance _after_ the epic sources for the sources of the screwed up signatures?
1733 2013-09-17 15:20:26 <TD> no, the iphone app is old
1734 2013-09-17 15:20:33 <last1> does eloipool allow using usernames from pool_worker table in SQL ?
1735 2013-09-17 15:20:34 <TD> ben can't upgrade it because he's afraid of the re-review
1736 2013-09-17 15:20:57 <TD> i think we suspected the iphone app for a long time, with exactly that theory. ben confirmed it to be today.
1737 2013-09-17 15:21:08 <Luke-Jr> kinlo:
1738 2013-09-17 15:21:16 <gmaxwell> crazy. But yea, trivial to fix server side, if you can tolerate the txid changing.
1739 2013-09-17 15:21:32 <TD> i just sent him an email asking him
1740 2013-09-17 15:21:39 <jgarzik> I <heart> Apple, and their reviews
1741 2013-09-17 15:21:54 <kinlo> luke?
1742 2013-09-17 15:21:55 <gmaxwell> (if you can't tolerate the txid changing you're already a potential victim of any griefer on the network, thats a big part of the motivation in enforcing the the signatures be in canonical form)
1743 2013-09-17 15:22:02 imsaguy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1744 2013-09-17 15:22:28 <TD> jgarzik: basically every time i encounter the iphone i thank the stars that larry/sergey decided they wanted to make android
1745 2013-09-17 15:22:33 Diapolis has joined
1746 2013-09-17 15:22:42 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: last1's question looks like it's for oyu
1747 2013-09-17 15:22:43 <TD> i don't even want to think about how bitcoin would be if everyone used iphones
1748 2013-09-17 15:23:04 normanrichards has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1749 2013-09-17 15:23:06 <jgarzik> TD, indeed :/  We run into that here in the office, which is largely an Apple shop
1750 2013-09-17 15:23:16 <gmaxwell> You mean, how iCoin would be?
1751 2013-09-17 15:23:22 <jgarzik> I was originally the only one with an Android phone, and Bitcoin Wallet for Andoird
1752 2013-09-17 15:23:23 <TD> i noticed that at the conference. tony was still pushing BitcoinSpinner
1753 2013-09-17 15:23:26 <jgarzik> *Android
1754 2013-09-17 15:23:34 <TD> when i showed him andreas' wallet he was like, huh wow
1755 2013-09-17 15:23:45 <TD> i don't get how people in the tech industry can still use iphones. but whatever.
1756 2013-09-17 15:23:57 <jgarzik> TD, Yeah, I've poked Steve enough that he finally agrees he needs an Android phone ;p
1757 2013-09-17 15:23:58 <Luke-Jr> TD: is Andreas' thing still broken? ie, displaying "from addresses"?
1758 2013-09-17 15:24:00 <TD> gmaxwell: i mean how bitcoin would be perceived if the only way to carry it in your pocket was on an iphone
1759 2013-09-17 15:24:05 <jgarzik> TD, no other _real_ decentralized option...
1760 2013-09-17 15:24:08 <jgarzik> (on phones)
1761 2013-09-17 15:24:15 <gmaxwell> TD: yea, my point was that they're be no bitcoin, only iCoin. :P
1762 2013-09-17 15:24:20 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: is your Android decentralised? mine demands I use Google for everything :/
1763 2013-09-17 15:24:22 <TD> jgarzik: well also it sounds like the iphone wallet is basically broken at this point due to randomly making non-canonical sigs
1764 2013-09-17 15:24:43 <jgarzik> Ben is wise to worry about re-review
1765 2013-09-17 15:24:54 <TD> Luke-Jr: yeah. he knows he needs to fix that. we're planning to reorganise how the wallet is stored at some point so a payment is not the same as a transaction
1766 2013-09-17 15:24:58 <TD> and carry labels at that point
1767 2013-09-17 15:25:40 <sipa> TD: +1
1768 2013-09-17 15:25:40 <gmaxwell> Maybe Ben can put up a new version with a different name, under a different account. And if it's successful move people over to that?
1769 2013-09-17 15:25:50 <TD> i think they check for that kind of thing.
1770 2013-09-17 15:25:58 <michagogo> (also it's another $99)
1771 2013-09-17 15:25:58 <TD> i mean it's all done with human review
1772 2013-09-17 15:26:14 <TD> and they do ID verification so you can't just get another account, as far as i know
1773 2013-09-17 15:26:26 <TD> perhaps someone else could do it for him, but it is risky
1774 2013-09-17 15:26:28 <Luke-Jr> get someone inside Apple to make an official Bitcoin wallet, that's the only way it'll fly on iOS <.<
1775 2013-09-17 15:26:48 <TD> basically someone needs to go visit cupertino and talk to their lawyers. maybe patrick could do that.
1776 2013-09-17 15:26:53 <gmaxwell> There are people here who work at apple.
1777 2013-09-17 15:27:22 imsaguy has joined
1778 2013-09-17 15:27:24 <Luke-Jr> there are?
1779 2013-09-17 15:27:46 <gmaxwell> Yes. Though perhaps nowhere in the criticial path for a decision like this.
1780 2013-09-17 15:29:48 <kinlo> last1: no :)
1781 2013-09-17 15:30:30 <last1> ok, I have two quick questions
1782 2013-09-17 15:30:42 <last1> I downloaded and installed the dependencies both for python 2.7 and 3.2.3
1783 2013-09-17 15:30:58 <last1> ran ./setup.py install for bitcoinrpc and jsonrpc
1784 2013-09-17 15:31:15 <kinlo> eloi is python 3 only
1785 2013-09-17 15:31:31 <last1> well, it installed for python3 as well
1786 2013-09-17 15:31:45 <kinlo> I don't know how to use setup, I just download the files as mentioned in the readme
1787 2013-09-17 15:31:46 <last1> but when I try to run ./eloipool it shows: ImportError: No module named jsonrpc
1788 2013-09-17 15:31:56 btsec has joined
1789 2013-09-17 15:34:09 <last1> understood. I just copied them too and it worked
1790 2013-09-17 15:34:37 jgarzik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1791 2013-09-17 15:37:04 <last1> well, worked until next error
1792 2013-09-17 15:37:04 <last1> I copied the software from github and it throws this error: Error getting list of source files! AGPL requires this. To fix, be sure you are using git for Eloipool
1793 2013-09-17 15:37:44 <kinlo> you gotta use a git checkout for eloi
1794 2013-09-17 15:37:51 normanrichards has joined
1795 2013-09-17 15:39:20 zer0def has joined
1796 2013-09-17 15:40:36 normanrichards has quit (Client Quit)
1797 2013-09-17 15:43:44 wavelet has joined
1798 2013-09-17 15:45:34 Subo1977_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1799 2013-09-17 15:45:39 Subo1977 has joined
1800 2013-09-17 15:46:57 <last1> is it planned to support pool_worker table based authentication or it's not really required ?
1801 2013-09-17 15:46:58 zer0def has quit (Quit: Quit:)
1802 2013-09-17 15:47:17 <TD> sigh. writing down all the steps needed to implement a contracts based application makes me think it's still too much effort, even after all the libraries i've written
1803 2013-09-17 15:47:33 <TD> i wonder if some small DSLs would help simplify things further
1804 2013-09-17 15:49:49 <gmaxwell> It could be forthlike, and you could call it "script" ... :P  but more seriously, one thing a domain specific language could help with is static analysis tools for figuring out if your protocol is broken. A multistep contracts transaction is really right in the domain that automated provers can work with. I sense a nice phd thesis for someone.
1805 2013-09-17 15:49:51 zer0def has joined
1806 2013-09-17 15:50:02 Julius_129 has joined
1807 2013-09-17 15:50:17 <TD> over the last couple of years i watched as jetbrains developed a really fascinating tool, called MPS
1808 2013-09-17 15:50:32 <TD> MPS is really amazing. it's basically an IDE for developing languages and (crucially) associated toolchains. literally everything.
1809 2013-09-17 15:50:47 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
1810 2013-09-17 15:50:56 <TD> the resulting languages can be embedded inside other languages, including java, as long as the language compiles down to java (which they mostly do).
1811 2013-09-17 15:51:22 <kinlo> last1: I don't need it so I didn't write it.
1812 2013-09-17 15:51:24 <TD> typically building a language means you define a grammar with a grammar tool, write your own compiler using llvm or whatever. their approach is totally different.
1813 2013-09-17 15:51:32 splnkr has quit (Quit: splnkr)
1814 2013-09-17 15:51:48 Julius129 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1815 2013-09-17 15:51:49 <TD> you define an abstract syntax tree (using another DSL), then you define visual editors for that AST, which are typically somewhat textual but can also embed tables, images, arbitrary GUI widgets etc.
1816 2013-09-17 15:51:50 <Luke-Jr> TD: so it's like Perl?
1817 2013-09-17 15:51:50 <Luke-Jr> :P
1818 2013-09-17 15:52:22 <TD> then you define mapping rules that convert your language to a lower level language, which may or may not be java (aka "baseLanguage" as they call it). the whole thing cascades down via a series of different languages until you reach generated code at the bottom.
1819 2013-09-17 15:52:32 <TD> you can generate down to C as well, actually. some people made a language that does that.
1820 2013-09-17 15:52:38 rodarmor has joined
1821 2013-09-17 15:52:38 <TD> but then you can go even further
1822 2013-09-17 15:52:46 <TD> you can define type systems by defining equations and inequations.
1823 2013-09-17 15:52:51 <TD> you can define data flow rules for static analysis
1824 2013-09-17 15:53:21 <TD> you can define auto-hinters so that you get eclipse/intellij style hints and automatic fixers
1825 2013-09-17 15:53:38 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1826 2013-09-17 15:53:40 <gmaxwell> "We call this the job security framework."
1827 2013-09-17 15:53:43 <TD> it's one of the most mind-numbingly complicated tools i've ever encountered, but they have a giant user manual and lots of screencast tutorials.
1828 2013-09-17 15:53:45 <TD> yeah. no kidding.
1829 2013-09-17 15:54:21 <TD> but if you think about the effort required to produce all those aspects of a toolchain for any kind of interesting language, you'd basically never achieve it. MPS makes it at least thinkable that one person can define a useful DSL with an entire stack on top
1830 2013-09-17 15:55:13 jgarzik has joined
1831 2013-09-17 15:55:13 jgarzik has quit (Changing host)
1832 2013-09-17 15:55:13 jgarzik has joined
1833 2013-09-17 15:55:22 <TD> defining a contracts language and making it expand out to code that works with bitcoinj and implements all the network protocol binding, persistence etc along with a type system and static analysis tools to find errors ... that's the kind of thing it's good at
1834 2013-09-17 15:56:16 <michagogo> [18:51:10] <TD> then you define mapping rules that convert your language to a lower level language, which may or may not be java (aka "baseLanguage" as they call it). the whole thing cascades down via a series of different languages until you reach generated code at the bottom.
1835 2013-09-17 15:56:16 <michagogo> Did you see that code in Ruby that generated code in another language that generated code in another language, etc... through something like 50 languages until the original code was returned?
1836 2013-09-17 15:56:28 <TD> hah
1837 2013-09-17 15:56:29 <TD> no
1838 2013-09-17 15:56:34 <handle> but would it actually return the original code?
1839 2013-09-17 15:56:45 <michagogo> handle: Yeah
1840 2013-09-17 15:56:46 <sipa> that's one hell of a quine :D
1841 2013-09-17 15:56:50 <handle> I presume it would be like translating text from english -> german -> japanese -> spanish -> english
1842 2013-09-17 15:57:02 <handle> oh, it was a quine
1843 2013-09-17 15:57:04 <handle> never mind
1844 2013-09-17 15:57:11 <michagogo> https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
1845 2013-09-17 15:57:20 <michagogo> This is a Ruby program that generates Scala program that generates Scheme program that generates ...(through 50 languages)... REXX program that generates the original Ruby code again.
1846 2013-09-17 15:58:59 <michagogo> lol
1847 2013-09-17 15:58:59 <michagogo> sudo apt-get install algol68g bash beef boo clisp clojure1.4 coffeescript f2c fp-compiler g++ gauche gawk gcc gforth gfortran ghc gnat gnu-smalltalk gobjc golang groovy icont intercal iverilog jasmin-sable llvm lua5.2 make mono-devel mono-mcs nodejs ocaml octave open-cobol openjdk-6-jdk parrot perl php5-cli pike7.8 python r-base regina-rexx ruby1.9.3 scala swi-prolog tcc tcl8.5 ucblogo
1848 2013-09-17 15:58:59 <michagogo> valac
1849 2013-09-17 15:59:02 <handle> that's insane
1850 2013-09-17 16:00:45 btcbtc has joined
1851 2013-09-17 16:02:05 <handle> http://www0.us.ioccc.org/1994/smr.hint
1852 2013-09-17 16:02:58 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1853 2013-09-17 16:03:01 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1854 2013-09-17 16:03:54 johnsoft has joined
1855 2013-09-17 16:06:27 rodarmor has left ()
1856 2013-09-17 16:07:32 normanrichards has joined
1857 2013-09-17 16:07:38 GordonG3kko has joined
1858 2013-09-17 16:07:51 awishformore has joined
1859 2013-09-17 16:11:16 t7 has joined
1860 2013-09-17 16:11:51 Julius_129 has left ()
1861 2013-09-17 16:12:03 <last1> what should I use for my UpstreamBitcoindNode ?
1862 2013-09-17 16:12:32 StarenseN has joined
1863 2013-09-17 16:13:06 Sarah has joined
1864 2013-09-17 16:13:30 Sarah is now known as Guest74887
1865 2013-09-17 16:14:24 xenland has joined
1866 2013-09-17 16:15:39 FluffySheap has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1867 2013-09-17 16:16:01 <michagogo> last1: probably the upstream bitcoind node :-P
1868 2013-09-17 16:16:46 <sipa> where does your bitcoind run?
1869 2013-09-17 16:16:51 <last1> who should that be ? :)
1870 2013-09-17 16:17:19 <sipa> you
1871 2013-09-17 16:17:24 <last1> same server on port 8332
1872 2013-09-17 16:17:28 <last1> so I should be using that
1873 2013-09-17 16:17:33 <sipa> yes
1874 2013-09-17 16:17:43 swulf-- has joined
1875 2013-09-17 16:18:06 <swulf--> bitcoind: table/table_builder.cc:97: void leveldb::TableBuilder::Add(const leveldb::Slice&, const leveldb::Slice&): Assertion `r->options.comparator->Compare(key, Slice(r->last_key)) > 0' failed.
1876 2013-09-17 16:18:17 <swulf--> what's this?
1877 2013-09-17 16:19:38 <TD> bad news?
1878 2013-09-17 16:20:19 <gmaxwell> swulf--: what cpu / os / bitcoin version?
1879 2013-09-17 16:20:26 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1880 2013-09-17 16:20:34 <swulf--> Bitcoin version v0.8.5-3-gcd2eda9-beta (2013-09-17 18:31:25 +0700)
1881 2013-09-17 16:20:58 <swulf--> model name      : Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU D525   @ 1.80GHz
1882 2013-09-17 16:21:13 last1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1883 2013-09-17 16:21:58 <TD> where did you get bitcoind from?
1884 2013-09-17 16:22:00 <swulf--> linux 3.2.0
1885 2013-09-17 16:22:12 <swulf--> I built it from the 0.8.5 branch from github
1886 2013-09-17 16:22:12 <TD> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=187289.0
1887 2013-09-17 16:22:19 <TD> this thread has the same assert and he claims he failed a RAM test
1888 2013-09-17 16:22:46 last1 has joined
1889 2013-09-17 16:22:52 <swulf--> this just happened after upgrading from 0.8.3 to 0.8.5
1890 2013-09-17 16:24:04 Guest74887 has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
1891 2013-09-17 16:24:42 <sipa> that's likely just coincidence
1892 2013-09-17 16:24:50 <sipa> i don'tthink leveldb changed
1893 2013-09-17 16:24:57 <swulf--> ok
1894 2013-09-17 16:25:13 <TD> also that thread was from back in april. i don't see much chatter mentioning it, so i'm guessing this is a hardware flake
1895 2013-09-17 16:25:17 <TD> it seems rare, at least
1896 2013-09-17 16:25:23 * michagogo is downloading over a gig of packages to try out that quine-relay
1897 2013-09-17 16:25:42 <michagogo> If anyone's interested, I'll asciiio it
1898 2013-09-17 16:27:02 <TD> haha: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/asia/0,9263,501130916,00.html
1899 2013-09-17 16:30:56 <gmaxwell> LOL
1900 2013-09-17 16:31:14 <swulf--> well, seems like bad memory would manifest itself in some other ways.. i've had no problems with anything else other than bitcoind
1901 2013-09-17 16:32:02 * TD shrugs
1902 2013-09-17 16:32:05 <TD> i'm just repeating what i found
1903 2013-09-17 16:32:11 <TD> bad memory doesn't inherently cause an immediate explosion
1904 2013-09-17 16:32:27 <TD> bitcoind syncing is an unusually intensive task, and leveldb has a lot of internal sanity checks to find errors
1905 2013-09-17 16:32:36 <TD> it's not entirely surprising to me it'd be more sensitive to bad memory than other things
1906 2013-09-17 16:34:17 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: your computer has never had a program crash?
1907 2013-09-17 16:35:58 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: or got an incorrect DNS reply, and retried without telling you? ;)
1908 2013-09-17 16:36:11 <swulf--> this is a web server, and other critical software hasn't failed
1909 2013-09-17 16:36:45 <Luke-Jr> you know that 100% of your HTTP requests have been bit-for-bit correct?
1910 2013-09-17 16:36:47 <swulf--> Luke: I get what you're getting at, though
1911 2013-09-17 16:37:14 <TD> data corruption can be subtle and linger for a long time
1912 2013-09-17 16:37:20 <TD> we had an amazing outage of a big google service once
1913 2013-09-17 16:37:40 <TD> an entire datacenter shut down (rather, the entire instance of that service in a specific datacenter)
1914 2013-09-17 16:38:27 <TD> it turned out it had started trying to replicate from another datacenter that didn't exist. one bit had been flipped on one machine in a string field containing a bigtable path, keeping it a valid path but that identified a non-existent facility. that then got sent to all the other servers, and the whole thing rippled to a dead stop
1915 2013-09-17 16:38:40 <TD> ECC didn't flag the problem
1916 2013-09-17 16:40:17 asuk has joined
1917 2013-09-17 16:40:19 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
1918 2013-09-17 16:40:55 Arnavion has joined
1919 2013-09-17 16:45:38 wallet43 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1920 2013-09-17 16:46:19 ticean has joined
1921 2013-09-17 16:46:32 <Luke-Jr> "As Bitcoin is not just a cryptocurrency but a movement towards decentralization and limited government, …" <-- wtf
1922 2013-09-17 16:48:50 bizoro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1923 2013-09-17 16:48:50 _ingsoc has joined
1924 2013-09-17 16:49:04 bizoro has joined
1925 2013-09-17 16:49:25 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Wheres that?
1926 2013-09-17 16:50:11 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: a draft of Bitcoin Magazine's August timeline
1927 2013-09-17 16:50:28 <graingert> Luke-Jr, if it's a draft then that's no problem
1928 2013-09-17 16:50:34 <Luke-Jr> yeah, I changed it
1929 2013-09-17 16:50:42 <Luke-Jr> but seriously, wtf was someone thinking? :/
1930 2013-09-17 16:50:47 <TD> bitcoin magazine is pretty political, it's always been like that
1931 2013-09-17 16:51:17 knotwork_ has joined
1932 2013-09-17 16:51:48 * TD -> home
1933 2013-09-17 16:51:49 TD has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1934 2013-09-17 16:53:37 jevin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1935 2013-09-17 16:53:57 knotwork__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1936 2013-09-17 16:54:12 jevin has joined
1937 2013-09-17 16:58:31 Coincide_ has joined
1938 2013-09-17 16:58:44 bizoro has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1939 2013-09-17 17:02:13 djcoin has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
1940 2013-09-17 17:03:07 <michagogo> Lol, apt-get's still installing the packages for quine-relay
1941 2013-09-17 17:04:00 viperhr1 has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1942 2013-09-17 17:04:38 viperhr1 has joined
1943 2013-09-17 17:09:00 patcon_ has joined
1944 2013-09-17 17:09:18 pooler_ has joined
1945 2013-09-17 17:09:52 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1946 2013-09-17 17:10:20 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1947 2013-09-17 17:10:28 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1948 2013-09-17 17:10:41 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1949 2013-09-17 17:11:13 sserrano44 has joined
1950 2013-09-17 17:12:23 elevatioN has joined
1951 2013-09-17 17:15:52 Anduck has joined
1952 2013-09-17 17:16:16 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1953 2013-09-17 17:16:19 Krellan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1954 2013-09-17 17:16:46 Krellan_ has joined
1955 2013-09-17 17:16:55 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, Certainly amusing politics, considering things like http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/139922/yuri-takhteyev/open-source-open-world which points out as an example those who laud open source as helping fellow leftists
1956 2013-09-17 17:17:08 <jgarzik> and not very all-inclusive
1957 2013-09-17 17:19:05 saivann has joined
1958 2013-09-17 17:21:29 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1959 2013-09-17 17:24:15 <michagogo> ...wow
1960 2013-09-17 17:24:33 <michagogo> apt-get is *still* running
1961 2013-09-17 17:25:37 rdponticelli has joined
1962 2013-09-17 17:25:45 an3k has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1963 2013-09-17 17:27:33 datagutt has joined
1964 2013-09-17 17:28:14 normanrichards has left ()
1965 2013-09-17 17:30:05 MobGod has joined
1966 2013-09-17 17:30:14 MobGod has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1967 2013-09-17 17:30:51 MobGod has joined
1968 2013-09-17 17:31:59 <imsaguy> michagogo: shoulda used a mac
1969 2013-09-17 17:32:28 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1970 2013-09-17 17:32:31 <sipa> michagogo: slow downloading, or slow install?
1971 2013-09-17 17:33:18 johnsoft has joined
1972 2013-09-17 17:34:19 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1973 2013-09-17 17:34:35 Tom_Soft has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1974 2013-09-17 17:34:36 asuk is now known as asuk|afk
1975 2013-09-17 17:35:08 CryptoBuck has joined
1976 2013-09-17 17:36:22 asuk has quit (afk!~asuk@31.129.27.89|)
1977 2013-09-17 17:37:18 <gmaxwell> Codeshark closed his multiwallet pull. :-/
1978 2013-09-17 17:39:13 <warren> why?
1979 2013-09-17 17:41:13 <gmaxwell> dunno. Without that I dunno how we're going to support half the wallet things we've seen people asking for lately. (Watching wallets, multisignature, trezor support)
1980 2013-09-17 17:41:23 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
1981 2013-09-17 17:41:33 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1982 2013-09-17 17:41:47 <sipa> yeah it was unmaintained for a long time, and stuff it depends on seems to cause problems even
1983 2013-09-17 17:43:19 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1984 2013-09-17 17:44:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: CodeShark had mentioned it was obsolete a month or so ago
1985 2013-09-17 17:44:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: some of his other pulls, which have been merged, were intended as steps to replace it
1986 2013-09-17 17:45:37 <gmaxwell> okay, so he hasn't stopped working on the feature, but just the pull?
1987 2013-09-17 17:45:50 <Luke-Jr> I think so.
1988 2013-09-17 17:46:27 Belxjander has joined
1989 2013-09-17 17:46:33 Belxjander has quit (Changing host)
1990 2013-09-17 17:46:33 Belxjander has joined
1991 2013-09-17 17:46:42 i2pRelay has joined
1992 2013-09-17 17:47:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: afaik, he is mostly working on his own project
1993 2013-09-17 17:47:48 <michagogo> ...are you freaking kidding me...
1994 2013-09-17 17:47:51 <michagogo> still installing
1995 2013-09-17 17:48:05 <sipa> how many packages?
1996 2013-09-17 17:48:10 <jgarzik> michagogo, it's a package-quine!
1997 2013-09-17 17:48:25 <jgarzik> a package that installs a package that installs a package that produces the original packge.
1998 2013-09-17 17:48:34 <michagogo> I don't know, it scrolled up off of the terminal
1999 2013-09-17 17:48:48 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2000 2013-09-17 17:49:29 <michagogo> It's up to the "r"s
2001 2013-09-17 17:49:49 btcbtc has joined
2002 2013-09-17 17:50:03 <michagogo> Unpacking ri1.9.1 (from .../ri1.9.1_1.9.3.194-8.1ubuntu1.1_all.deb) ...
2003 2013-09-17 17:50:08 patcon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2004 2013-09-17 17:51:13 Sarah has joined
2005 2013-09-17 17:51:37 Sarah is now known as Guest33251
2006 2013-09-17 17:52:02 sserrano44 has joined
2007 2013-09-17 17:52:44 Guest33251 has quit (Client Quit)
2008 2013-09-17 17:57:16 G________ has joined
2009 2013-09-17 17:57:49 CodesInChaos_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2010 2013-09-17 17:58:03 <michagogo> Unpacking swi-prolog-x (from .../swi-prolog-x_5.10.4-5ubuntu1_i386.deb) ...
2011 2013-09-17 17:58:39 patcon has joined
2012 2013-09-17 17:59:45 peetaur has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2013 2013-09-17 18:00:05 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I don't see any problem with an extra byte of freebie space.
2014 2013-09-17 18:00:06 elevatioN has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2015 2013-09-17 18:01:41 devDelay has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2016 2013-09-17 18:02:32 <TheLordOfTime> michagogo: what the heck are you installing?
2017 2013-09-17 18:02:50 <michagogo> TheLordOfTime: sudo apt-get install algol68g bash beef boo clisp clojure1.4 coffeescript f2c fp-compiler g++ gauche gawk gcc gforth gfortran ghc gnat gnu-smalltalk gobjc golang groovy icont intercal iverilog jasmin-sable llvm lua5.2 make mono-devel mono-mcs nodejs ocaml octave open-cobol openjdk-6-jdk parrot perl php5-cli pike7.8 python r-base regina-rexx ruby1.9.3 scala swi-prolog tcc
2018 2013-09-17 18:02:50 <michagogo> tcl8.5 ucblogo valac
2019 2013-09-17 18:03:06 <TheLordOfTime> eheh
2020 2013-09-17 18:03:17 <TheLordOfTime> those're going to pull in a LOT of dependencies
2021 2013-09-17 18:03:23 <michagogo> Indeed.
2022 2013-09-17 18:03:33 <TheLordOfTime> not... sure why you put "bash" in there
2023 2013-09-17 18:03:37 <TheLordOfTime> because bash is the default shell
2024 2013-09-17 18:03:43 <TheLordOfTime> (Ubuntu uses Bash by default)
2025 2013-09-17 18:03:44 <michagogo> About 400-500 megs of archives
2026 2013-09-17 18:03:48 <helo> ubuntu uses dash
2027 2013-09-17 18:03:54 <TheLordOfTime> helo: you certain?
2028 2013-09-17 18:03:57 <michagogo> and over a gig of space to be used afterwards
2029 2013-09-17 18:04:02 <TheLordOfTime> because i've seen 'bash as a prereq in the images
2030 2013-09-17 18:04:16 <helo> i'm pretty sure i recall hearing that they dropped bash in favor of dash a while back
2031 2013-09-17 18:04:26 <michagogo> TheLordOfTime: I copy-pasted the command from https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
2032 2013-09-17 18:04:39 <helo> TheLordOfTime: ahh, they use dash for /bin/sh
2033 2013-09-17 18:04:46 <TheLordOfTime> helo: mhm
2034 2013-09-17 18:04:53 <TheLordOfTime> the **default Login shell is Bash**
2035 2013-09-17 18:04:58 <michagogo> micha@raring-ringtail-VirtualBox:~/quine-relay$ ps
2036 2013-09-17 18:04:58 <michagogo>   PID TTY          TIME CMD
2037 2013-09-17 18:04:58 <michagogo>  2842 pts/1    00:00:00 bash
2038 2013-09-17 18:04:58 <michagogo>  7634 pts/1    00:00:00 ps
2039 2013-09-17 18:05:26 <gmaxwell> love you guys, but perhaps this should move elsewhere.
2040 2013-09-17 18:05:31 <TheLordOfTime> :P
2041 2013-09-17 18:07:44 santoscork has joined
2042 2013-09-17 18:09:38 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2043 2013-09-17 18:11:39 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
2044 2013-09-17 18:11:57 ahbritto has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2045 2013-09-17 18:14:05 StarenseN has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2046 2013-09-17 18:14:50 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2047 2013-09-17 18:16:24 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2048 2013-09-17 18:17:27 MobGod has joined
2049 2013-09-17 18:19:28 Transisto has joined
2050 2013-09-17 18:20:09 G________ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2051 2013-09-17 18:20:24 <michagogo> Finally finished :-D
2052 2013-09-17 18:20:35 <michagogo> asciiio -yq make
2053 2013-09-17 18:20:35 <michagogo> erm, alt-tab fail
2054 2013-09-17 18:20:49 devDelay has joined
2055 2013-09-17 18:21:19 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2056 2013-09-17 18:21:25 <jgarzik> A lot of these advanced transaction schemes seem to rely on generating a refund transaction, that double-spends a target.  You broadcast the refund transaction if X goes wrong etc.
2057 2013-09-17 18:21:39 G________ has joined
2058 2013-09-17 18:21:47 <jgarzik> Wonder if we need a flag yes-its-ok-to-broadcast-this-doublespend
2059 2013-09-17 18:22:04 <jgarzik> so the local bitcoind will be happy
2060 2013-09-17 18:22:17 <michagogo> Interesting -- some of the languages are implemented as ruby scripts
2061 2013-09-17 18:22:18 <jgarzik> seems like remotes would be ok (different txid), but local would grump
2062 2013-09-17 18:22:19 <michagogo> http://ascii.io/a/5480
2063 2013-09-17 18:22:38 <sipa> jgarzik: why would remote be ok, but local not?
2064 2013-09-17 18:22:40 <jgarzik> because local bitcoind has already seen the original transaction
2065 2013-09-17 18:22:42 <sipa> the logic is the same, afaik
2066 2013-09-17 18:22:48 <sipa> and remotes haven't?
2067 2013-09-17 18:23:02 <sipa> there is no way to have your node see a transaction without broadcasting afaik
2068 2013-09-17 18:23:53 <jgarzik> hmmm
2069 2013-09-17 18:24:16 <jgarzik> well, it probably doesn't matter for the auction case
2070 2013-09-17 18:24:25 Coincide_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2071 2013-09-17 18:24:37 <gmaxwell> I think in most cases its not actually a double spend if it gets used.
2072 2013-09-17 18:25:09 t7 has joined
2073 2013-09-17 18:25:09 <gmaxwell> e.g. you compute a refund txn and either its used (and not a double spend) or the non-refund case goes through long before the refund.
2074 2013-09-17 18:25:14 twobitcoins_ has joined
2075 2013-09-17 18:25:27 <jgarzik> Auction case: all bidders send in their bids.  Each bid contains one unsigned input that is demanded by the auction (thus guaranteeing only one bid is valid, in the end).  The software will also create a refund transaction for the losers.
2076 2013-09-17 18:25:49 <jgarzik> Auction id == hash(outpoint demand of each bidder)
2077 2013-09-17 18:25:58 <jgarzik> *demanded
2078 2013-09-17 18:26:06 <gmaxwell> Right, so where is the doublespend?
2079 2013-09-17 18:26:18 <jgarzik> For safety, the refund transaction will be auction end + 1 hour.
2080 2013-09-17 18:26:28 <jgarzik> the refund transaction doubles spends the bid.
2081 2013-09-17 18:26:43 <jgarzik> For safety, the refund transaction will be nLockTime auction end + 1 hour.
2082 2013-09-17 18:26:43 elevatioN has joined
2083 2013-09-17 18:27:03 <gmaxwell> yea, but either the bid goes through, or the refund. So the network won't ever see the refund.
2084 2013-09-17 18:27:04 <warren> The function pointer that I implemented switches between the two implementations just fine on 64bit, but 32bit build it segfaults when the function is called.  Conditional cpuid to sse2 or generic works.  Not sure what I'm doing wrong...
2085 2013-09-17 18:27:29 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2086 2013-09-17 18:27:38 <jgarzik> For the auction case the bids are never broadcast (due to that one unsigned input), until the end
2087 2013-09-17 18:27:40 <gmaxwell> run in gdb and see where it fails.
2088 2013-09-17 18:27:56 <jgarzik> The auction ends when the auctioneer signs and broadcasts a bid
2089 2013-09-17 18:28:00 <warren> gmaxwell: fails at the call to the function pointer, with literally nothing on the frame above it
2090 2013-09-17 18:28:08 <jgarzik> If the auctioneer goes MIA, you may broadcast your refund transaction
2091 2013-09-17 18:28:11 <jgarzik> or if you lose
2092 2013-09-17 18:29:01 <gmaxwell> warren: make sure that you didn't get the prototype different in the caller and callee due to different types?
2093 2013-09-17 18:29:30 elevatioN has quit (Client Quit)
2094 2013-09-17 18:30:14 <warren> https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/tree/exp-0.8.5.1-32bitsse2fixmefail1/src  scrypt.h scrypt.cpp scrypt-sse2.cpp
2095 2013-09-17 18:30:28 <warren> it works on 64bit
2096 2013-09-17 18:32:13 <warren> unit test fails in the same place
2097 2013-09-17 18:32:39 <warren> ubuntu@ubuntu:~/build/litecoin/src$ ./test_litecoin
2098 2013-09-17 18:32:39 <warren> Test setup error: memory access violation at address: 0x00000000: no mapping at fault address
2099 2013-09-17 18:32:48 <warren> #0  0x00000000 in ?? ()
2100 2013-09-17 18:32:50 stochasm has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2101 2013-09-17 18:32:52 <warren> #1  0x08254081 in scrypt_1024_1_1_256 (input=0xbfffe910 "\001", output=0xbfffe7ac "") at scrypt.cpp:284
2102 2013-09-17 18:33:09 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
2103 2013-09-17 18:34:29 G________ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2104 2013-09-17 18:35:08 <sipa> wyou're calling a null pointer
2105 2013-09-17 18:35:15 <sipa> warren: you're calling a null pointer
2106 2013-09-17 18:35:18 <sipa> sure it's initialized?
2107 2013-09-17 18:36:17 Logxen has joined
2108 2013-09-17 18:36:21 _________ has joined
2109 2013-09-17 18:36:38 <warren> hmm, maybe my #ifdef in init.cpp is failing on 32bit
2110 2013-09-17 18:36:48 <warren> which is why I'm wondering how to print all variables in make
2111 2013-09-17 18:36:54 <gmaxwell> your ifdef leaves you inited if it does't pass.
2112 2013-09-17 18:37:29 <warren> #if defined(_M_IX86) || defined(__i386__) || defined(__i386) || defined(_M_X64) || defined(__x86_64__) || (_M_AMD64)
2113 2013-09-17 18:37:30 <jgarzik> Has anyone done a design for a data chain that is merge-mined using normal, non-coinbase bitcoin transaction timestamping?
2114 2013-09-17 18:38:06 tiberiusiv has joined
2115 2013-09-17 18:38:32 <jgarzik> Seems like it would make for some fun rules, and naughty mempool tricks, if you base an alt-coin on a requirement of being mined into a bitcoin block.
2116 2013-09-17 18:38:38 stochasm has joined
2117 2013-09-17 18:38:48 <gmaxwell> "those people aren't with us anymore"
2118 2013-09-17 18:39:28 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: once upon a time, you could do that with namecoin
2119 2013-09-17 18:39:28 <Luke-Jr> <.<
2120 2013-09-17 18:39:30 <Luke-Jr> it was.. fun? :P
2121 2013-09-17 18:39:57 <warren> sipa: you're right, init.cpp is failing to set the function pointer at all
2122 2013-09-17 18:40:09 <warren> odd thing is this works on 64bit
2123 2013-09-17 18:40:49 <warren> init.cpp fails to set the function pointer even if I remove the ifdef for arch
2124 2013-09-17 18:40:53 StarenseN has joined
2125 2013-09-17 18:41:01 idstam has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2126 2013-09-17 18:41:06 <sipa> warren: ??
2127 2013-09-17 18:41:14 <sipa> can i see your code
2128 2013-09-17 18:41:15 StarenseN has quit (Client Quit)
2129 2013-09-17 18:41:24 <warren> sipa: https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/tree/exp-0.8.5.1-32bitsse2fixmefail1/src
2130 2013-09-17 18:41:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: namecoin didn't care if its committment was in the coinbase txn? :P
2131 2013-09-17 18:41:32 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not originally!
2132 2013-09-17 18:41:36 <warren> sipa: init.cpp scrypt.h scrypt.cpp scrypt-sse2.cpp
2133 2013-09-17 18:41:57 devrando1 is now known as devrandom
2134 2013-09-17 18:42:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: just don't suggest a coin mined like that whos block subsidy depends on the number of unspendable bytes you add to bitcoin's utxo set...
2135 2013-09-17 18:44:39 <jgarzik>  I was thinking of a protocol requirement of one alt-coin timestamp per bitcoin block, at most.  Or, lowest valued hash, taken as 256-bit integer, is the one considered valid in the alt-chain.
2136 2013-09-17 18:44:52 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2137 2013-09-17 18:45:36 <gmaxwell> lowest hash rules are ... well, I'd like to see someone try one. They have .. uh. potentially poor convergence properties.
2138 2013-09-17 18:47:54 Eiii has joined
2139 2013-09-17 18:47:54 Eiii has quit (Changing host)
2140 2013-09-17 18:47:54 Eiii has joined
2141 2013-09-17 18:48:22 mrkent has joined
2142 2013-09-17 18:48:22 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
2143 2013-09-17 18:48:22 mrkent has joined
2144 2013-09-17 18:50:22 owowo has joined
2145 2013-09-17 18:50:39 wavelet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2146 2013-09-17 18:51:29 Coincidental has joined
2147 2013-09-17 18:52:09 <jgarzik> eventually a new bitcoin block will be minted, and the race begins anew
2148 2013-09-17 18:52:16 <jgarzik> so routine convergence points
2149 2013-09-17 18:53:03 elevatioN has joined
2150 2013-09-17 18:53:58 <gmaxwell> ah, the lowest one in the block, sure. hahaha. dos attack coin.
2151 2013-09-17 18:54:13 _________ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2152 2013-09-17 18:54:36 wavelet has joined
2153 2013-09-17 18:55:22 _________ has joined
2154 2013-09-17 18:56:19 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2155 2013-09-17 18:57:32 viperhr1 has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2156 2013-09-17 18:58:18 viperhr1 has joined
2157 2013-09-17 18:59:33 random_cat has joined
2158 2013-09-17 19:00:20 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, hardly, if you have to proof-of-work successively harder
2159 2013-09-17 19:00:59 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: sure, but after a new block you don't know about any of the existing solutions.
2160 2013-09-17 19:01:09 <gmaxwell> so you get a flury of transactions.
2161 2013-09-17 19:01:36 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, you know the previous blocks in your alt-chain, and what an expected minimum difficulty is
2162 2013-09-17 19:02:45 <sipa> warren: unrelated comment: no need to do that initialization inside the blockchain-load loop
2163 2013-09-17 19:03:19 <warren> sipa: yeah, where's a better place to do it?
2164 2013-09-17 19:03:59 asuk has joined
2165 2013-09-17 19:04:00 <sipa> warren: right after the code to read the cpuid register?
2166 2013-09-17 19:04:17 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2167 2013-09-17 19:04:23 <sipa> also, this will inevitably crash on non-x86?
2168 2013-09-17 19:04:32 <sipa> you need the else branch to be outside of the ifdef
2169 2013-09-17 19:04:35 <warren> sipa: that didn't work well, the print message ended up in weird places instead of right before the block db is verified
2170 2013-09-17 19:04:43 <sipa> so?
2171 2013-09-17 19:04:59 <warren> sipa: and yes, I intend on fixing it for non-x86 archs later
2172 2013-09-17 19:05:17 <warren> sipa: any idea why it is failing to init the function pointer at all in init.cpp but it works on 64?
2173 2013-09-17 19:05:45 <sipa> even if you uncomment the ifdef/endif?
2174 2013-09-17 19:06:02 <warren> yes
2175 2013-09-17 19:06:04 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2176 2013-09-17 19:06:14 <sipa> you can write the test shorter as: if (cpuid_edx & 1<<26)
2177 2013-09-17 19:06:27 <sipa> but no, no clue in that case
2178 2013-09-17 19:06:50 <sipa> wait, this is for PoW validation?
2179 2013-09-17 19:06:54 <warren> yes
2180 2013-09-17 19:07:04 <sipa> i thought that was done earlier
2181 2013-09-17 19:07:13 <sipa> when loading the blockindex, PoW is verified
2182 2013-09-17 19:07:21 <warren> oh
2183 2013-09-17 19:07:33 <sipa> doesn't explain 32 vs 64 bit though
2184 2013-09-17 19:07:41 <warren> yes
2185 2013-09-17 19:08:03 <warren> "no need to do that initialization inside the blockchain-load loop" is there anything wrong about where I put it though?
2186 2013-09-17 19:08:09 <warren> it nicely prints SSE2 or not in that location
2187 2013-09-17 19:09:50 <warren> sipa: oh, you mean load block index is failing earlier because the PoW isn't init
2188 2013-09-17 19:09:54 * warren tries
2189 2013-09-17 19:10:17 _________ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2190 2013-09-17 19:10:44 robocoin_ has joined
2191 2013-09-17 19:11:09 mortikia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2192 2013-09-17 19:11:32 mortikia has joined
2193 2013-09-17 19:12:50 <jgarzik> some sse2 registers are not available on 32-bit
2194 2013-09-17 19:12:58 <jgarzik> could that be a cause?
2195 2013-09-17 19:12:59 <warren> sipa: you were right, I init too late
2196 2013-09-17 19:13:25 <warren> sipa: it appears I need to separately init in the unit tests as the init.cpp codepath isn't used there?
2197 2013-09-17 19:13:32 <sipa> indeed
2198 2013-09-17 19:13:48 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2199 2013-09-17 19:13:49 <warren> I have NO IDEA how this worked at all on 64bit
2200 2013-09-17 19:13:51 <sipa> it has its own initializations in test_bitcoin.cpp, afaik
2201 2013-09-17 19:13:55 <warren> ahh
2202 2013-09-17 19:13:57 <warren> thanks
2203 2013-09-17 19:14:13 <warren> in this case, I'm pretty close to done
2204 2013-09-17 19:14:40 <warren> just fix ifdefs to always use SSE2 on x86_64 (no conditional, no function pointer), always generic on non-x86, and detect on 32bit
2205 2013-09-17 19:14:56 <warren> #if defined(_M_IX86) || defined(__i386__) || defined(__i386) || defined(_M_X64) || defined(__x86_64__) || (_M_AMD64)
2206 2013-09-17 19:15:07 <warren> I copied these from various examples out there from windows, mac and linux
2207 2013-09-17 19:15:19 <warren> I don't know how to print what make actually has as variables
2208 2013-09-17 19:15:28 <sipa> make?
2209 2013-09-17 19:15:30 <sipa> you mean gcc
2210 2013-09-17 19:15:37 <warren> oh
2211 2013-09-17 19:15:56 <warren> right... any idea how to ask gcc what defines it has?
2212 2013-09-17 19:16:49 <swulf--> gcc -E -dM
2213 2013-09-17 19:17:31 marco___ has joined
2214 2013-09-17 19:18:24 guruvan has joined
2215 2013-09-17 19:18:58 MobGod has joined
2216 2013-09-17 19:19:14 marco___ has left ()
2217 2013-09-17 19:20:31 <cfields> gmaxwell: ping
2218 2013-09-17 19:20:46 daybyter has joined
2219 2013-09-17 19:20:59 <warren> sipa: jgarzik: any suggestion how to make the generic part to submit to bitcoin less of an ugly hack?
2220 2013-09-17 19:21:25 <gmaxwell> cfields: pong?
2221 2013-09-17 19:21:42 <warren> I guess it was gmaxwell that suggested bitcoin might use it one day.
2222 2013-09-17 19:21:44 <warren> https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/blob/exp-0.8.5.1-32bitsse2fixmefail1/src/init.cpp#L498
2223 2013-09-17 19:22:15 <cfields> gmaxwell: got a min to discuss the recent leveldb/fsync/corruption changes? I hit a corrupt leveldb last night and sniffed out the problem, i believe
2224 2013-09-17 19:22:36 <gmaxwell> start talking.
2225 2013-09-17 19:22:52 psychophoniac has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2226 2013-09-17 19:23:13 <cfields> gmaxwell: first off, i was doing a load from the bootstrap.dat in a virgin bitcoin dir. I can share the corrupt folder if it's interesting
2227 2013-09-17 19:23:50 <gmaxwell> if you weren't done with your sync the report is not so interesting.
2228 2013-09-17 19:24:16 <cfields> error is: "Corruption: missing start of fragmented record(2)"
2229 2013-09-17 19:24:18 <cfields> oh?
2230 2013-09-17 19:24:36 <jgarzik> we turn off fsync'ing, during IBD
2231 2013-09-17 19:24:44 <gmaxwell> as we intentionally do not flush before the highest checkpoint, so it's easy to corrupt it if you shut if off uncleanly. (well interesting if you didn't kill it—)
2232 2013-09-17 19:24:44 <jgarzik> if you crash during that time, things might be out of whack
2233 2013-09-17 19:24:47 <sipa> jgarzik: irrelevant
2234 2013-09-17 19:24:51 <sipa> jgarzik: this is inside leveldb
2235 2013-09-17 19:24:55 <gmaxwell> but yea, that won't cause 12:23 < cfields> error is: "Corruption: missing start of fragmented record(2)"
2236 2013-09-17 19:25:08 <gmaxwell> cfields: how'd you exit the process?
2237 2013-09-17 19:25:11 ll_ has left ()
2238 2013-09-17 19:25:58 <cfields> gmaxwell: well, the conditons were unusual for sure, but my assumption was that a corrupt leveldb should really never occur
2239 2013-09-17 19:26:15 <sipa> cfields: it shouldn't (but it most certainly does...)
2240 2013-09-17 19:26:16 <cfields> gmaxwell: i was mid-gdb, tracing something, forgot about it, shut computer off
2241 2013-09-17 19:26:19 tiberiusiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2242 2013-09-17 19:26:35 <gmaxwell> corrupt chain, yes during initial sync, but yea, that kind of leveldb error should be a never-happens even.
2243 2013-09-17 19:26:39 <gmaxwell> er event.
2244 2013-09-17 19:26:39 <cfields> which admittedly isn't worth investigating...
2245 2013-09-17 19:26:54 <cfields> but here's what i found that confuses me
2246 2013-09-17 19:27:13 tiberiusiv has joined
2247 2013-09-17 19:27:24 <cfields> txdb.cpp:66
2248 2013-09-17 19:27:40 <cfields> WriteBatch() doesn't specify sync there
2249 2013-09-17 19:28:53 justusranvier has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2250 2013-09-17 19:29:12 <jgarzik> zis is true
2251 2013-09-17 19:29:19 <jgarzik> and the default is false
2252 2013-09-17 19:29:29 <sipa> cfields: nothing depends on it, no need for sync writes
2253 2013-09-17 19:29:39 xenland has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2254 2013-09-17 19:29:56 <sipa> the chainstate depends on the block index, so every write to the chainstate is preceeded by a flush+sync of the block index
2255 2013-09-17 19:30:19 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2256 2013-09-17 19:30:19 s7r has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2257 2013-09-17 19:30:52 BitCoroner has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2258 2013-09-17 19:30:53 <gmaxwell> cfields: what should happen is that if the write is torn the database will be recovered at the prior state (as the write is atomic, even if its not synchronous.)
2259 2013-09-17 19:31:05 <gmaxwell> (or at least it's supposted to be)
2260 2013-09-17 19:31:24 guruvan has joined
2261 2013-09-17 19:31:30 <sipa> right, leveldb writes just append to the logfile
2262 2013-09-17 19:31:32 <cfields> as a result (stepping through with gdb): ldb does not sync its log before writing data, so presumably the data was partially written but there's no indication in the log, so replay can't figure it out upon reopen
2263 2013-09-17 19:31:51 <cfields> that's making lots of assumptions about ldb being like a traditional database, which are probably way wrong
2264 2013-09-17 19:31:52 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2265 2013-09-17 19:32:03 <sipa> a partial write in the log should be perfectly safe
2266 2013-09-17 19:32:09 awishformore has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2267 2013-09-17 19:32:15 <sipa> it should just result in a corrupted entry at the end
2268 2013-09-17 19:32:41 awishformore has joined
2269 2013-09-17 19:32:43 patcon has joined
2270 2013-09-17 19:33:34 <cfields> here's the gdb stepping that i'm basing that around: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=FWnatsFQ
2271 2013-09-17 19:33:57 <cfields> (in that case, i patched in the fsync=true)
2272 2013-09-17 19:34:00 BitCoroner has joined
2273 2013-09-17 19:34:03 justusranvier has joined
2274 2013-09-17 19:34:54 s7r has joined
2275 2013-09-17 19:34:54 GordonG3kko has joined
2276 2013-09-17 19:35:33 <cfields> so, feel free to ignore if i'm way off. figured i'd report it just-in-case
2277 2013-09-17 19:35:47 <gmaxwell> cfields: the idea IIRC is that leveldb is supposted to be basically a log structured file system with periodic atomic compaction.  So if a log entry is torn you're just left at the consistent prior state.
2278 2013-09-17 19:36:02 <sipa> and that seems exactly what we're seeing here
2279 2013-09-17 19:36:11 <sipa> but why does it report an error?
2280 2013-09-17 19:36:19 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2281 2013-09-17 19:36:21 <sipa> hmm, missing start of fragmented record
2282 2013-09-17 19:36:21 <gmaxwell> cfields: is that error fatal?
2283 2013-09-17 19:36:39 psychophoniac has joined
2284 2013-09-17 19:36:42 <cfields> gmaxwell: it's fatal in that bitcoind refuses to load, if that's what you mean
2285 2013-09-17 19:36:42 <sipa> that means that it finds a partial log entry, without the first one
2286 2013-09-17 19:37:02 <gmaxwell> cfields: yea, thats what I meant, just thought it prudent to be sure!
2287 2013-09-17 19:37:03 <cfields> not sure what state the db is actually in, i haven't really figured out how to poke at it
2288 2013-09-17 19:37:45 devDelay has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2289 2013-09-17 19:41:49 devDelay has joined
2290 2013-09-17 19:41:57 random_cat has joined
2291 2013-09-17 19:42:06 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2292 2013-09-17 19:42:52 MobGod has joined
2293 2013-09-17 19:45:47 Ashaman has joined
2294 2013-09-17 19:46:48 edcba has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2295 2013-09-17 19:47:15 edcba has joined
2296 2013-09-17 19:47:54 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
2297 2013-09-17 19:48:13 santoscork has joined
2298 2013-09-17 19:51:04 last1 has quit ()
2299 2013-09-17 19:56:36 wallet43 has joined
2300 2013-09-17 19:59:29 devDelay has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2301 2013-09-17 19:59:39 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2302 2013-09-17 19:59:48 Subo1977_ has joined
2303 2013-09-17 20:00:52 devDelay has joined
2304 2013-09-17 20:01:11 Subo1977_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2305 2013-09-17 20:02:20 Subo1977 has joined
2306 2013-09-17 20:03:13 Ashaman has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2307 2013-09-17 20:05:03 paracyst has joined
2308 2013-09-17 20:15:37 Thepok has joined
2309 2013-09-17 20:18:39 tmsk has joined
2310 2013-09-17 20:20:59 justusranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2311 2013-09-17 20:22:04 ffff_ has joined
2312 2013-09-17 20:22:32 infinitev has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2313 2013-09-17 20:22:40 infinitev has joined
2314 2013-09-17 20:27:19 justusranvier has joined
2315 2013-09-17 20:28:35 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
2316 2013-09-17 20:30:43 saulimus has joined
2317 2013-09-17 20:31:55 _________ has joined
2318 2013-09-17 20:32:54 cornfeedhobo has joined
2319 2013-09-17 20:33:03 <cornfeedhobo> hello. i am having some trouble
2320 2013-09-17 20:34:00 <cornfeedhobo> i sent ~7 coins and since my client said sent i closed my laptop. but they are not showing on the blockchain and when i look at my wallet it shows the tx with an id
2321 2013-09-17 20:34:42 <sipa> then leave your client open for a while
2322 2013-09-17 20:34:47 <sipa> it will rebroadcast periodically
2323 2013-09-17 20:34:50 <gmaxwell> not showing on the blockchain??
2324 2013-09-17 20:34:57 last1 has joined
2325 2013-09-17 20:35:02 <sipa> not showing on blockchain.info, i presume
2326 2013-09-17 20:35:13 <edcba> and ask your questions to #bitcoin :)
2327 2013-09-17 20:35:25 <edcba> and fuck that ban on non registered uses
2328 2013-09-17 20:35:26 <edcba> users
2329 2013-09-17 20:36:18 <cornfeedhobo> sipa: blockexplorer
2330 2013-09-17 20:37:28 <cornfeedhobo> gmaxwell: all my client tells me is that there are no confirmations
2331 2013-09-17 20:37:41 <cornfeedhobo> gmaxwell: moving to #bitcoin
2332 2013-09-17 20:43:25 Fistful_of_ltc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2333 2013-09-17 20:44:47 ffff_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2334 2013-09-17 20:45:34 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2335 2013-09-17 20:46:17 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
2336 2013-09-17 20:46:19 pecket has joined
2337 2013-09-17 20:48:08 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2338 2013-09-17 20:50:11 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2339 2013-09-17 20:51:00 Fistful_of_ltc has joined
2340 2013-09-17 20:51:01 Fistful_of_ltc has quit (Changing host)
2341 2013-09-17 20:51:01 Fistful_of_ltc has joined
2342 2013-09-17 20:52:48 denisx has joined
2343 2013-09-17 20:54:07 patcon has joined
2344 2013-09-17 20:56:37 banghouse has joined
2345 2013-09-17 20:58:24 _________ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2346 2013-09-17 20:59:39 justusranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2347 2013-09-17 21:02:39 justusranvier has joined
2348 2013-09-17 21:07:04 <jgarzik> Reimbursement of Tor exit operators: https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-relays/2013-September/002824.html
2349 2013-09-17 21:08:20 <edcba> what ?
2350 2013-09-17 21:08:47 <warren> NSA reimburses them for all the convenient data collection?
2351 2013-09-17 21:09:12 AusBitBank has joined
2352 2013-09-17 21:09:22 <edcba> no need to fill a form a transfer will be directly made to tor exit node operators :)
2353 2013-09-17 21:09:31 <sipa> wow, someone got a 0.3.24 up to 225k+: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/13236/blockchain-download-extremely-slow-at-200-blocks-per-hour
2354 2013-09-17 21:11:20 saulimus has joined
2355 2013-09-17 21:12:40 devDelay has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2356 2013-09-17 21:20:14 Krellan_ has joined
2357 2013-09-17 21:21:16 elevatioN has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2358 2013-09-17 21:24:32 asuk is now known as asuk|afk
2359 2013-09-17 21:25:03 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2360 2013-09-17 21:25:06 CodeShark has joined
2361 2013-09-17 21:26:02 asuk has quit (afk!~asuk@31.129.27.89|)
2362 2013-09-17 21:30:57 _________ has joined
2363 2013-09-17 21:31:40 cornfeedhobo has left ()
2364 2013-09-17 21:33:31 eculver_ has left ()
2365 2013-09-17 21:34:48 eculver has joined
2366 2013-09-17 21:36:47 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2367 2013-09-17 21:39:25 michagogo has quit (Quit: Goodnight!)
2368 2013-09-17 21:41:12 bizoro has joined
2369 2013-09-17 21:41:12 bizoro has quit (Changing host)
2370 2013-09-17 21:41:12 bizoro has joined
2371 2013-09-17 21:42:12 asuk has joined
2372 2013-09-17 21:42:42 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
2373 2013-09-17 21:42:52 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2374 2013-09-17 21:43:54 Luke-Jr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2375 2013-09-17 21:44:03 ahbritto has joined
2376 2013-09-17 21:45:20 viperhr1 has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2377 2013-09-17 21:45:59 viperhr1 has joined
2378 2013-09-17 21:47:19 jcorgan has joined
2379 2013-09-17 21:49:50 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2380 2013-09-17 21:50:20 shesek has joined
2381 2013-09-17 21:58:19 last1 has quit ()
2382 2013-09-17 21:59:24 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2383 2013-09-17 22:00:27 owowo has joined
2384 2013-09-17 22:04:47 mologie has joined
2385 2013-09-17 22:06:28 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
2386 2013-09-17 22:06:49 viperhr1 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2387 2013-09-17 22:07:33 viperhr1 has joined
2388 2013-09-17 22:13:47 troj has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds)
2389 2013-09-17 22:16:40 troj has joined
2390 2013-09-17 22:20:55 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2391 2013-09-17 22:21:15 Luke-Jr has joined
2392 2013-09-17 22:22:02 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2393 2013-09-17 22:22:37 imsaguy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2394 2013-09-17 22:22:45 rdymac has joined
2395 2013-09-17 22:22:51 imsaguy has joined
2396 2013-09-17 22:23:37 bizoro has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2397 2013-09-17 22:24:49 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2398 2013-09-17 22:26:08 _________ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2399 2013-09-17 22:29:55 awishformore has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2400 2013-09-17 22:30:01 awishformore has joined
2401 2013-09-17 22:30:05 jeewee1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2402 2013-09-17 22:31:13 Applicat_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2403 2013-09-17 22:31:20 jeewee has joined
2404 2013-09-17 22:33:42 Gu_______ has joined
2405 2013-09-17 22:37:16 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
2406 2013-09-17 22:37:17 asuk has quit ()
2407 2013-09-17 22:37:54 Gu_______ has quit (Client Quit)
2408 2013-09-17 22:38:14 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2409 2013-09-17 22:38:52 mappum has joined
2410 2013-09-17 22:39:52 Gu_______ has joined
2411 2013-09-17 22:41:41 mologie has joined
2412 2013-09-17 22:42:13 McKay has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2413 2013-09-17 22:42:32 McKay has joined
2414 2013-09-17 22:43:36 discretefx has joined
2415 2013-09-17 22:44:39 discrete has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2416 2013-09-17 22:46:59 <warren> sipa: btw, response?
2417 2013-09-17 22:50:14 Application has joined
2418 2013-09-17 22:52:34 psychophoniac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2419 2013-09-17 23:18:51 patcon has joined
2420 2013-09-17 23:23:58 freewil has joined
2421 2013-09-17 23:24:16 awishformore has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2422 2013-09-17 23:24:53 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2423 2013-09-17 23:25:25 AusBitBank has joined
2424 2013-09-17 23:27:30 BenderCoin has joined
2425 2013-09-17 23:29:26 jeewee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2426 2013-09-17 23:29:26 jeewee has joined
2427 2013-09-17 23:29:50 r0sc0e has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2428 2013-09-17 23:31:52 btsec has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2429 2013-09-17 23:33:00 jcorgan has left ()
2430 2013-09-17 23:33:02 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2431 2013-09-17 23:33:23 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
2432 2013-09-17 23:36:27 t7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2433 2013-09-17 23:38:28 r0sc0e has joined
2434 2013-09-17 23:38:29 gst has joined
2435 2013-09-17 23:38:33 btcbtc has joined
2436 2013-09-17 23:39:31 ericmuyser has joined
2437 2013-09-17 23:39:55 blaeks has joined
2438 2013-09-17 23:42:04 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2439 2013-09-17 23:48:02 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2440 2013-09-17 23:48:38 Gu_______ has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2441 2013-09-17 23:51:15 <warren> gmaxwell: you are the one that suggested that bitcoin might want the cpuid global in the future, may I ask for suggestions on how to do it cleaner and the correct place to insert it to init.cpp?
2442 2013-09-17 23:51:26 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2443 2013-09-17 23:52:04 <warren> gitk
2444 2013-09-17 23:52:06 <warren> oops
2445 2013-09-17 23:52:19 johnsoft has joined
2446 2013-09-17 23:52:38 <BlueMatt> has gavinandresen fixed the out-of-space errors on jenkins?
2447 2013-09-17 23:52:40 <BlueMatt> yet
2448 2013-09-17 23:53:06 rethaw has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2449 2013-09-17 23:53:59 ForceMajeure_ has joined
2450 2013-09-17 23:54:41 Dingo has joined
2451 2013-09-17 23:56:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2452 2013-09-17 23:56:50 ForceMajeure has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2453 2013-09-17 23:58:14 rethaw has joined
2454 2013-09-17 23:59:00 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)