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6 2013-09-18 00:11:05 <phantomcircuit> stratum request/response dump http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=2dw68UK6
7 2013-09-18 00:11:20 <phantomcircuit> python code attempting to construct the block header/hash http://pastebin.com/Ki8F1K83
8 2013-09-18 00:11:30 <phantomcircuit> output http://pastebin.com/wfYA0Pm1
9 2013-09-18 00:11:43 <phantomcircuit> expected hash value is 000000000beb64c7015f77d1dd9a8074d1513f6f8ec4756c2693ef98cff373ab
10 2013-09-18 00:11:45 <phantomcircuit> from cpuminer
11 2013-09-18 00:12:10 <phantomcircuit> merkleroot matches the dumped merkleroot from cpuminer so the problem is likely something else
12 2013-09-18 00:12:33 <phantomcircuit> i've been looking at this far too long to see what's wrong with it anymore
13 2013-09-18 00:12:34 <phantomcircuit> :/
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17 2013-09-18 00:15:53 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: jenkins is out of space? ⦠will fix now...
18 2013-09-18 00:16:22 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: what happened to the cron job?
19 2013-09-18 00:16:42 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: dunno, I'll check. Should be working...
20 2013-09-18 00:17:57 <gavinandresen> Did somebody else fix the out-of-space problem? I don't see a problem...
21 2013-09-18 00:18:20 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, isn't the out of space problem on tmpfs?
22 2013-09-18 00:18:51 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: not according to 'df'
23 2013-09-18 00:19:10 <gavinandresen> (4.3 gig available)
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25 2013-09-18 00:19:56 <BlueMatt> I dunno, I didnt see logs that indicated out of space, but thats what someone was saying
26 2013-09-18 00:20:56 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, iirc the person saying they saw an out of space error said it referenced /tmp
27 2013-09-18 00:21:02 <phantomcircuit> in which case it could just be random
28 2013-09-18 00:21:32 <gavinandresen> mmm. I don't see anything wrong with jenkins, and last pull-test was successful.
29 2013-09-18 00:21:39 <phantomcircuit> heh well this coinbase transaction isn't evenvalid
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31 2013-09-18 00:21:53 <phantomcircuit> but i dont think that could be the cause of this since cpuminer doesn't check that at all
32 2013-09-18 00:22:48 <phantomcircuit> oh actually it is derp hex encoded
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54 2013-09-18 00:55:26 <cfields> BlueMatt: was it really out of space? builds were failing a few days ago because of a build problem that's been fixed since. is that what you were referencing maybe?
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56 2013-09-18 00:59:01 <BlueMatt> cfields: no idea, someone commented on irc earlier today that builds failed, I dunno details because most people ignore the "Please ping BlueMatt" comment
57 2013-09-18 00:59:57 <cfields> heh ok
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223 2013-09-18 05:53:14 <lianj> is there more info about https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address#Multi-signature_addresses ? is this used somewhere on the network? how does it differ from OP_CHECKMULTISIG script type
224 2013-09-18 05:54:24 <gmaxwell> Thats talking about P2SH, and yes, its used on the network.
225 2013-09-18 05:56:12 <lianj> oh duh, p2sh. ok :D
226 2013-09-18 05:56:44 <gmaxwell> yea, dunno why it only talks about one use of p2sh but thats the wiki for you. :P
227 2013-09-18 06:01:09 <CodeShark> are there any other things p2sh is actually being used for right now?
228 2013-09-18 06:02:12 <lianj> pushing non-standard scripts maybe? dunno, peers prolly look into the inner script aswell before relaying
229 2013-09-18 06:03:23 <gmaxwell> lianj: ... they can't look into the "inner" script when you pay to.
230 2013-09-18 06:03:40 <gmaxwell> (on redemption they do, sure.)
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232 2013-09-18 06:04:01 <lianj> yea, thats what i mean
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235 2013-09-18 06:05:10 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you saw, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293382.0 I assume? :)
236 2013-09-18 06:05:20 <CodeShark> yes, I did
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239 2013-09-18 06:07:09 <CodeShark> I was referring to stuff besides hackerbaiting :p
240 2013-09-18 06:08:04 <gmaxwell> the more common usage I've seen has been escrows, which indeed is just multisig of some kind or another.
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242 2013-09-18 06:12:39 <CodeShark> the only three templates in script.cpp's solver currently are TX_PUBKEY, TX_PUBKEYHASH, and TX_MULTISIG
243 2013-09-18 06:13:23 <CodeShark> if p2sh were truly a general pattern, we wouldn't need these special cases :)
244 2013-09-18 06:14:35 <CodeShark> legacy's a real bitch sometimes
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255 2013-09-18 07:03:39 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: the solver stuff isn't general and probably never will be general.
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257 2013-09-18 07:04:34 <gmaxwell> The idea of transaction "ownership" would actually be undecidable under script for fully general scripts (well, would be save some of the limitations in script currently)
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439 2013-09-18 10:22:34 <TD> good day
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448 2013-09-18 10:51:22 <jgarzik> mornin'
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456 2013-09-18 11:08:24 <gavinandresen> mornin
457 2013-09-18 11:09:08 awishformore has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
458 2013-09-18 11:10:34 <sipa> muffin
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460 2013-09-18 11:10:48 <Diablo-D3> sipa is our derpy.
461 2013-09-18 11:11:25 <sipa> derp derp
462 2013-09-18 11:12:03 * Diablo-D3 is glad the bronies have not discovered bitcoin
463 2013-09-18 11:12:19 * sipa resists urge to google 'bronies'
464 2013-09-18 11:12:32 <Diablo-D3> sipa: male adult fans of my little pony
465 2013-09-18 11:12:33 <da2ce7> sipa: justdoit
466 2013-09-18 11:13:02 <Diablo-D3> sipa: basically, the current punching bag of the internet
467 2013-09-18 11:13:22 <da2ce7> Diablo-D3: well, a rarther long-term one at that.
468 2013-09-18 11:13:37 <Diablo-D3> well, I think it evolved from furries as a punching bag
469 2013-09-18 11:15:47 <TD> evening gavin
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490 2013-09-18 11:58:27 <gavinandresen> TD: good night! bedtime...
491 2013-09-18 11:58:33 <TD> sleep well
492 2013-09-18 12:01:05 wrabbit_ is now known as wrabbit
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494 2013-09-18 12:03:12 <jgarzik> drat
495 2013-09-18 12:03:20 * jgarzik was hoping to catch gavinandresen and sort autoconf
496 2013-09-18 12:03:43 <gavinandresen> I thought consensus on autoconf was clear
497 2013-09-18 12:04:20 <gavinandresen> build -g -O2 by default, document ./configure CXXFLAGS="-g -ggdb" if you want to debug (or is it CXXFLAGS=foo ./configure ...)
498 2013-09-18 12:04:27 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, hopefully my PR captures consensus, but wanted to make sure you were happy
499 2013-09-18 12:04:43 <jgarzik> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3011
500 2013-09-18 12:04:53 michagogo has joined
501 2013-09-18 12:05:22 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, mainly, I didn't know if "-g -ggdb" was something you needed specifically in configure.ac
502 2013-09-18 12:05:52 <jgarzik> CXXFLAGS="-g -ggdb" ./configure
503 2013-09-18 12:06:06 <jgarzik> to answer your question
504 2013-09-18 12:06:54 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: under what conditions will those -arch i386 / etc OSX flags get used?
505 2013-09-18 12:07:24 <gavinandresen> or maybe a better question: what does AX_CHECK_COMPILE_FLAG do?
506 2013-09-18 12:07:45 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
507 2013-09-18 12:08:21 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, tests that a certain compile flag works, or not, on the current build machine
508 2013-09-18 12:08:46 <gavinandresen> tests by building a little a.out?
509 2013-09-18 12:09:16 <TD> yeah.
510 2013-09-18 12:09:23 <TD> you can see what it does in the config.log file
511 2013-09-18 12:09:27 <TD> that's why configure is so damn slow
512 2013-09-18 12:09:31 <jgarzik> I don't think it links -- just compiles a no-op file
513 2013-09-18 12:09:33 <TD> it actually tests whether things work by compiling little programs
514 2013-09-18 12:09:37 <jgarzik> yep
515 2013-09-18 12:09:49 <jgarzik> each test runs the compiler and/or linker, on a tiny program
516 2013-09-18 12:09:53 <TD> it's a bit sad that in 2013 we're still converting things to use autotools
517 2013-09-18 12:09:55 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: in any case, seems to me the -mmacosx-version-min and -arch flags should also be something passed in via CXXFLAGS, if needed on whatever machine is used to build releases.
518 2013-09-18 12:10:04 <TD> surely there were better systems available these days that could have been used .... maybe not
519 2013-09-18 12:10:28 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, I'm OK with that -- I'll go with whatever makes the OSX builder happy :)
520 2013-09-18 12:10:44 * jgarzik is all for deleting lines from configure.ac, too
521 2013-09-18 12:10:53 <gavinandresen> less is better
522 2013-09-18 12:10:56 <gavinandresen> agreed
523 2013-09-18 12:11:07 <sipa> TD: and i wouldn't have objected to any buildsystem at all, but someone had to write one :)
524 2013-09-18 12:11:19 <TD> yeah
525 2013-09-18 12:11:43 <TD> whenever i look at the output of autoconf my appreciation for maven goes up, even though it's a gigantic xml monstrosity
526 2013-09-18 12:11:47 <TD> heh
527 2013-09-18 12:12:02 <sipa> anything was probably better than maintaining 5 separate build files...
528 2013-09-18 12:12:38 <gavinandresen> I was THIS CLOSE to fixing those 5 Makefiles so all the common code was in one include'd file.....
529 2013-09-18 12:12:57 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, JFYI, "./configure --help" lists the environment variables that can impact the build, in case you need a handy reference
530 2013-09-18 12:13:09 <jgarzik> hehe
531 2013-09-18 12:13:23 <jgarzik> ENVVAR=FOO ENV2VAR="bar baz" ./configure
532 2013-09-18 12:13:26 <jgarzik> is the general pattern
533 2013-09-18 12:13:50 <jgarzik> TD, heh
534 2013-09-18 12:14:01 <CodeShark> people still use xml?!? :p
535 2013-09-18 12:14:09 <sipa> CodeShark: haha
536 2013-09-18 12:14:18 <sipa> people still use ASN.1?!?
537 2013-09-18 12:14:20 <nkuttler> xml still has valid use cases
538 2013-09-18 12:14:26 <gavinandresen> Was about to post this to bitcoin-development RE: XBT: It seems very likely that the official currency code will become XBT; I think somebody should pull-request a change for the 0.9 release that changes BTC to XBT in the Bitcoin-Qt GUI, code comments, etc.
539 2013-09-18 12:14:46 <sipa> "official"
540 2013-09-18 12:14:55 <sipa> i though the X prefix was for non-official codes
541 2013-09-18 12:14:58 <jgarzik> I remember how in awe I was on XML, back in the day. I thought it was so much better than what had come before, all these ad hoc crappy formats (I spent a while writing code to read Excel spreadsheets and TIFF filesÂ
<shiver> the 1990s)
542 2013-09-18 12:14:58 <sipa> *thought
543 2013-09-18 12:15:08 <gavinandresen> XAU is official for gold....
544 2013-09-18 12:15:09 <TD> could we at least wait on that until it actually happens? it'd be kind of annoying to move away from the consensus BTC
545 2013-09-18 12:15:17 <sipa> ah
546 2013-09-18 12:15:25 <sipa> s/non-official/non-country/
547 2013-09-18 12:15:32 <jgarzik> +1 -- I prefer to wait until it is ISO-approved
548 2013-09-18 12:15:41 <gavinandresen> yes. I should say "ISO sanctioned non-country"
549 2013-09-18 12:15:42 <TD> i mean it's kind of busywork and BTC is more natural than XBT
550 2013-09-18 12:15:50 <TD> also what about mBTC, uBTC, etc
551 2013-09-18 12:15:51 <jgarzik> +1
552 2013-09-18 12:15:52 <TD> mXBT?
553 2013-09-18 12:15:54 <TD> uXBT?
554 2013-09-18 12:15:59 <gavinandresen> yup.
555 2013-09-18 12:16:03 <TD> heck, perhaps we should simply replace it with a unicode character :)
556 2013-09-18 12:16:05 <sipa> XBTe-3
557 2013-09-18 12:16:06 <sipa> XBTe-6
558 2013-09-18 12:16:08 <TD> hahaha
559 2013-09-18 12:16:10 * jgarzik is just sentimental about losing BTC, too :)
560 2013-09-18 12:16:17 * TD likes BTC
561 2013-09-18 12:16:21 * michagogo will also miss BTC
562 2013-09-18 12:16:23 <TD> somehow i doubt Bhutan is going to launch another currency
563 2013-09-18 12:16:30 <jgarzik> hah
564 2013-09-18 12:16:37 <gavinandresen> I'm a pull-the-bandaid-off-fast kinda guy, so if it is going to be XBT, then I think we should push that it become XBT sooner rather than later.
565 2013-09-18 12:16:40 <TD> it's not even clear to me why ISO currency codes are hierarchically structured. how many currencies does a country need?
566 2013-09-18 12:16:47 <jgarzik> Really, the ISO needs to figure its shit out
567 2013-09-18 12:16:51 <michagogo> Seriously, BTC makes sense as an abbreviation for BiTCoin
568 2013-09-18 12:16:56 <sipa> TD: some have 3 or 4, afaik
569 2013-09-18 12:17:01 <michagogo> XBT is non-intuitive
570 2013-09-18 12:17:09 <jgarzik> There will soon be many global currencies. And "global currency" is a new concept to ISO, gold nonwithstanding.
571 2013-09-18 12:17:13 <gavinandresen> X marks the spot, man!
572 2013-09-18 12:17:17 <jgarzik> :)
573 2013-09-18 12:17:24 <CodeShark> XAU is also nonintuitive unless you speak latin :p
574 2013-09-18 12:17:28 <gavinandresen> We've got the X factor!
575 2013-09-18 12:17:31 <michagogo> Also, the community doesn't necessarily need to adopt XBT as something to be used in day-to-day life...
576 2013-09-18 12:17:35 <jgarzik> CodeShark, or periodic table
577 2013-09-18 12:17:35 <gavinandresen> We are Xtra Special!
578 2013-09-18 12:17:44 <michagogo> CodeShark: That's why most people call it "gold"
579 2013-09-18 12:18:10 <sipa> also, people talk about dollars/bucks/... instead of USD. News at 11.
580 2013-09-18 12:18:18 <michagogo> We can keep BTC to use day-to-day even while ISO or whatever calls it XBT
581 2013-09-18 12:18:19 <TD> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_symbol
582 2013-09-18 12:18:27 <TD> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_to_easily_type_the_circled_B_symbol_on_a_Mac
583 2013-09-18 12:18:43 <TD> that last page is one i wrote years ago when i was pushing for â· to become the symbol
584 2013-09-18 12:18:44 <michagogo> Another example: here in Israel, our currency is the New Shekel
585 2013-09-18 12:18:49 <TD> it didn't take off :)
586 2013-09-18 12:19:14 <michagogo> When talking about it in English, it's almost always referred to as NIS (New Israeli Shekel)
587 2013-09-18 12:19:44 * gavinandresen wonders what the M1 New Shekel money supply is....
588 2013-09-18 12:19:44 <TD> oh, good news
589 2013-09-18 12:19:52 <michagogo> The ISO currency code is actually ILS, but I've never, ever seen or heard that code used other than on exchange rate sites
590 2013-09-18 12:19:56 <TD> ben says the iphone wallet *can* handle a change in tx hash, and it generates non-canonical sigs with negative components
591 2013-09-18 12:20:01 <michagogo> gavinandresen: Hmm?
592 2013-09-18 12:20:17 <TD> sipa: to un-negativize a signature, it's enough to just flip the sign? i forgot what you have to do there
593 2013-09-18 12:20:23 wallet43 has joined
594 2013-09-18 12:20:37 <CodeShark> it's mod the field modulus, no?
595 2013-09-18 12:20:51 <sipa> TD: take the complement of both R and S (with the field size)
596 2013-09-18 12:21:17 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, one more q
597 2013-09-18 12:21:22 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, is -O3 an OSX platform requirement?
598 2013-09-18 12:21:23 <sipa> the field size being 2^256 - 2^32 - ...
599 2013-09-18 12:21:31 <TD> yes the magic prime
600 2013-09-18 12:21:45 <TD> so you mean r' = r mod p ?
601 2013-09-18 12:21:46 <sipa> TD: there's code in git head that does it in bitcoind
602 2013-09-18 12:21:46 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: nope
603 2013-09-18 12:21:47 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, configure currently adds -O3, because mumble
604 2013-09-18 12:21:50 <jgarzik> ok
605 2013-09-18 12:21:54 <sipa> TD: no, r' = p - r
606 2013-09-18 12:21:54 <CodeShark> TD: r' = p - r
607 2013-09-18 12:21:57 <TD> ok
608 2013-09-18 12:22:10 <CodeShark> = -r (mod p)
609 2013-09-18 12:22:41 <sipa> TD: i'm wrong; it's just the complement of S you need to take
610 2013-09-18 12:22:48 <TD> and you do that for r and s independently?
611 2013-09-18 12:22:49 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/key.cpp#L202
612 2013-09-18 12:22:53 <TD> thanks
613 2013-09-18 12:23:05 <CodeShark> right, the "sign" of X is given
614 2013-09-18 12:23:13 <CodeShark> err, R
615 2013-09-18 12:23:20 <sipa> oh, and it's modulo the order, not the field size
616 2013-09-18 12:23:27 <TD> sipa: that code is handling odd S values, not flipping the sign?
617 2013-09-18 12:23:28 * sipa 's memory was fuzzy, sorry
618 2013-09-18 12:23:37 <CodeShark> mod the order?
619 2013-09-18 12:23:38 <sipa> TD: it has no sign
620 2013-09-18 12:24:02 <sipa> TD: the problem is that reinterpreting the (naively) serialized value results in a negative value
621 2013-09-18 12:24:07 <CodeShark> a point on an elliptic curve is in FxF
622 2013-09-18 12:24:11 <CodeShark> where F is the field
623 2013-09-18 12:24:23 <TD> yes, i know that you can't really have negative r/s values
624 2013-09-18 12:24:29 <TD> it's meaningless to have that in the field
625 2013-09-18 12:24:31 <sipa> TD: you need to perform the complement whenever the highest bit is set
626 2013-09-18 12:24:49 Polyatomic has quit (Quit: Catcha Round)
627 2013-09-18 12:24:50 <sipa> and as a side effect, the even/oddness also changes
628 2013-09-18 12:25:03 <TD> i see
629 2013-09-18 12:25:05 <sipa> which is why it's used in that code
630 2013-09-18 12:25:18 <sipa> but the complement is otherwise useful too
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632 2013-09-18 12:26:03 <sipa> (we've talked about changing the rule there to also trigger on highest-bit-set, rather than lowest-bit-set, as that will result in an average 0.5 byte size reduction per signature)
633 2013-09-18 12:27:11 <CodeShark> sipa: it's the field complement, no?
634 2013-09-18 12:27:22 <CodeShark> consider the case of F = real numbers
635 2013-09-18 12:27:23 <sipa> CodeShark: no, the order complement
636 2013-09-18 12:27:26 <TD> just prefixing the bad signature with a zero byte should also work, right?
637 2013-09-18 12:27:39 <CodeShark> oh, right - we're talking the signature - not the point
638 2013-09-18 12:27:41 <sipa> TD: eh, right!
639 2013-09-18 12:27:55 <sipa> that's much easier to implement, indeed
640 2013-09-18 12:28:15 <CodeShark> I should go to sleep :p
641 2013-09-18 12:28:24 * sipa hibernates CodeShark
642 2013-09-18 12:29:10 * gavinandresen hibernates
643 2013-09-18 12:29:29 <sipa> hmm, how many timezones are you two apart?
644 2013-09-18 12:29:45 <CodeShark> I think somewhere between 0 and 3
645 2013-09-18 12:30:17 <sipa> that would suprise me :)
646 2013-09-18 12:30:43 <sipa> 18 or so
647 2013-09-18 12:31:20 <CodeShark> the continental US only has 4 time zones
648 2013-09-18 12:31:27 <sipa> gavin is in australia
649 2013-09-18 12:31:31 <CodeShark> oh...
650 2013-09-18 12:31:34 <CodeShark> lol
651 2013-09-18 12:32:15 <CodeShark> time to turn on your text flipping plugin, sipa :p
652 2013-09-18 12:32:24 <sipa> ÊÉ¥Æıɹ Çɹ,noÊ
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658 2013-09-18 12:42:02 <TD> cool
659 2013-09-18 12:42:20 <TD> someone who works at YubiCo is hacking together a YubiKey Neo that can be tapped against android phones to sign transactions
660 2013-09-18 12:42:33 <TD> (using HD wallet keys)
661 2013-09-18 12:42:36 <sipa> :o
662 2013-09-18 12:42:39 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
663 2013-09-18 12:43:34 <TD> yeah they're using bitcoinj and announced what they're doing on the mailing list
664 2013-09-18 12:44:11 <sipa> so they actually have secp256k1 signing on the yubikey?
665 2013-09-18 12:44:41 <SomeoneWeird> neat!
666 2013-09-18 12:44:43 <CodeShark> I doubt it :p
667 2013-09-18 12:44:47 random_cat has joined
668 2013-09-18 12:45:02 <TD> the premium version: http://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-hardware/yubikey-neo/
669 2013-09-18 12:45:09 <TD> it's like a 20% project for the employee, it seems
670 2013-09-18 12:45:17 <TD> but he said they might release it, if it works out well
671 2013-09-18 12:46:22 <CodeShark> so you're talking about someone who is actually reprogramming the thing?
672 2013-09-18 12:46:24 <TD> yes
673 2013-09-18 12:46:48 <coingenuity> very cool
674 2013-09-18 12:46:49 <TD> it's a secure java smartcard inside
675 2013-09-18 12:46:53 <TD> so he's writing a bitcoin applet for it
676 2013-09-18 12:47:08 <coingenuity> thats cool
677 2013-09-18 12:47:10 <CodeShark> is the SDK public?
678 2013-09-18 12:47:23 <coingenuity> CodeShark: yeah, all their shit is open source
679 2013-09-18 12:47:49 <TD> i dunno if you can upload arbitrary applets to the neo
680 2013-09-18 12:47:59 <TD> however, the guy works for yubico, so it doesn't need to be open source
681 2013-09-18 12:48:01 <CodeShark> yeah, that's what I'm asking
682 2013-09-18 12:48:10 <TD> seems the neo is $50, so about half the price of the plastic trezor. however it has no display, of course.
683 2013-09-18 12:48:14 <CodeShark> if it were I might get on it myself :)
684 2013-09-18 12:48:18 <TD> so a compromised device can still grab all your moneyzz
685 2013-09-18 12:48:39 <SomeoneWeird> as with anything
686 2013-09-18 12:48:50 <SomeoneWeird> hmm
687 2013-09-18 12:48:55 <CodeShark> what about the input? doesn't it also have a button?
688 2013-09-18 12:48:57 <SomeoneWeird> i wonder if you could use the button like a password input
689 2013-09-18 12:48:58 <TD> well, no, trezor is specifically designed to solve that. however, it's probably a good way to handle the problem of physical theft of a phone. you can use a short pin
690 2013-09-18 12:49:14 <CodeShark> this is the solution I've been after for a while :p
691 2013-09-18 12:49:24 <CodeShark> but I'm not such an embedded sys guy
692 2013-09-18 12:49:24 <TD> CodeShark: it's NFC. so no button. you'd just enter the PIN on your phone then touch the neo to the back of your device
693 2013-09-18 12:49:29 <TD> you could keep it on a keyring or whatever
694 2013-09-18 12:49:32 <SomeoneWeird> TD, the nfc yubikeys have a button
695 2013-09-18 12:49:40 <TD> oh, ok.
696 2013-09-18 12:49:45 <TD> well, i guess it wouldn't be needed here
697 2013-09-18 12:49:48 <SomeoneWeird> so you can still use them normally
698 2013-09-18 12:49:50 <CodeShark> if you enter the pin on your phone, it's subject to logger attacks
699 2013-09-18 12:50:26 <SomeoneWeird> so... you use the button to enter a pin
700 2013-09-18 12:50:29 <CodeShark> the goal would be to remove all possibility of reprogramming the device without physical access
701 2013-09-18 12:50:53 <TD> it is irrelevant - if you can get malware on the phone you win anyway because you can ask the device to sign whatever tx you want
702 2013-09-18 12:50:58 <TD> it's really just about physical security, i guess
703 2013-09-18 12:51:10 <CodeShark> no, you could still be forced to confirm on the device
704 2013-09-18 12:51:28 <SomeoneWeird> if your device is compromised then no
705 2013-09-18 12:51:39 <CodeShark> the device cannot be reprogrammed without physical access
706 2013-09-18 12:51:53 <TD> but who cares about reprogramming it?
707 2013-09-18 12:51:59 <TD> if you can get malware onto your phone you control display+input
708 2013-09-18 12:52:06 <TD> the device will do whatever you want, if it's in range and connected
709 2013-09-18 12:52:14 <CodeShark> right, the device also needs output
710 2013-09-18 12:52:30 <CodeShark> but it needn't be a full-blown LCD display
711 2013-09-18 12:52:36 <TD> yes. trezor provides everything needed and it also fits on a keyring. but that's 2x the price even at the low end version
712 2013-09-18 12:52:37 <CodeShark> it could even be a buzzer or a vibrator
713 2013-09-18 12:52:48 <TD> well, no, again, how do you know it's signing what you think it's signing?
714 2013-09-18 12:52:56 <CodeShark> you encode it in the beeps
715 2013-09-18 12:52:58 <TD> you have to confirm using an on device display the identity you believe you're paying
716 2013-09-18 12:53:01 <TD> ...
717 2013-09-18 12:53:05 <SomeoneWeird> lmao
718 2013-09-18 12:53:10 <SomeoneWeird> output the address as morse code!
719 2013-09-18 12:53:12 <TD> haha
720 2013-09-18 12:53:16 <CodeShark> use a speech synth
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722 2013-09-18 12:53:33 <CodeShark> or just prerecorded samples
723 2013-09-18 12:53:38 <SomeoneWeird> using a buzzer, suuuure
724 2013-09-18 12:53:47 <TD> no AFAICT it's kind of useless if you were to have a secure keystore/chip in the phone itself, but most androids don't have one
725 2013-09-18 12:53:48 <CodeShark> "buzzer" = piezoelectric speaker
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727 2013-09-18 12:54:18 <CodeShark> like the things they put in greeting cards
728 2013-09-18 12:54:20 <TD> so it can be useful for that i guess. or as a way to easily pass money around in a physical form, that's more secure than a cascasius coin
729 2013-09-18 12:54:55 <TD> that might be the more interesting use case actually
730 2013-09-18 12:55:14 <CodeShark> anyhow, point is, an audio output device could be made much more compactly while having much greater throughput to the human nervous system
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732 2013-09-18 12:56:12 <jgarzik> my security robot needs to understand English commands -- I need to find a speech recognition module that does not send all speech to an Apple data center ;p
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737 2013-09-18 12:57:02 <TD> jgarzik: use one that sends it all to a google datacenter instead! :)
738 2013-09-18 12:57:59 <CodeShark> an alternative would be a laser that projects directly on your retina
739 2013-09-18 12:57:59 <jgarzik> all the open source software packages for speech-to-text tend to suck
740 2013-09-18 12:58:00 <CodeShark> :)
741 2013-09-18 12:58:14 <jgarzik> the best ones seem to be statistical, and have human help (apple, google)
742 2013-09-18 12:58:25 <SomeoneWeird> CodeShark, oh yes do that i will buy one
743 2013-09-18 12:58:37 <jgarzik> sadly not an option for a project that aims to protect your speech
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745 2013-09-18 12:59:20 <TD> human help?
746 2013-09-18 12:59:36 <TD> actually google speech recognition can run offline and the quality drop isn't that big
747 2013-09-18 12:59:56 <TD> you basically get a neural net that was trained in a bigass datacenter, but the final result is small enough to run on a phone
748 2013-09-18 13:00:10 <TD> i mean, there _is_ a quality drop, but it's not unusably bad or anything.
749 2013-09-18 13:00:17 <jgarzik> TD, neat!
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751 2013-09-18 13:00:42 <jgarzik> TD, as long as I can run it standalone on a Linux box, all good
752 2013-09-18 13:00:53 <TD> i think it's android only. so it depends whether you consider that a "linux box" :)
753 2013-09-18 13:01:29 <CodeShark> can't you emulate android on a "linux box"? :)
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758 2013-09-18 13:03:05 <CodeShark> ok, perhaps that's not what jgarzik meant by standalone
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763 2013-09-18 13:07:13 <jgarzik> my "security robot" project posits one or more servers (VPS's or whatever) coordinating to provide a singular robotic identity, with which you communicate. The robot's first task is simply secure key storage and use, though one could see other non-security uses (like a Personal Assistant Robot).
764 2013-09-18 13:07:34 <jgarzik> I want to be able to call my robot on the phone (==SIP), give him some instructions, and let him take it from there.
765 2013-09-18 13:08:03 <TD> sort of like google now
766 2013-09-18 13:08:04 <CodeShark> that's called a secretary
767 2013-09-18 13:08:04 <jgarzik> the voice recognition module needs to fit on a Linux server somehow, even if emulating Android in a box
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769 2013-09-18 13:08:38 <jgarzik> CodeShark, trouble is you either have to pay them or marry them
770 2013-09-18 13:08:43 * jgarzik runs
771 2013-09-18 13:09:05 <sipa> jgarzik: procreation is also an option, i guess
772 2013-09-18 13:09:08 <CodeShark> if you marry them you can forget about faithful execution of requests :p
773 2013-09-18 13:09:45 <TD> haha
774 2013-09-18 13:09:54 <CodeShark> the last thing you want is a personal assistant that requires emotional attention and defies you if you don't provide it :p
775 2013-09-18 13:11:01 <CodeShark> "robot, did you do something new to with your threads? you're looking great!"
776 2013-09-18 13:11:06 <jgarzik> yeah, that complicates bitcoin transaction signing :)
777 2013-09-18 13:11:31 <jgarzik> More seriously, I plan to use this for things like oracles or other robots that hold or control funds
778 2013-09-18 13:11:53 <CodeShark> "robot, how about after this request I get you a new chassis?"
779 2013-09-18 13:12:14 <jgarzik> though admittedly voice recognition is an advanced feature for these purposes :)
780 2013-09-18 13:12:32 <CodeShark> couldn't voice be recorded and played back?
781 2013-09-18 13:12:43 <TD> yeah
782 2013-09-18 13:12:46 <TD> like autonomous agents?
783 2013-09-18 13:12:48 <jgarzik> CodeShark, well you want near-real time
784 2013-09-18 13:12:52 <TD> http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Agents
785 2013-09-18 13:12:54 <jgarzik> CodeShark, but yes
786 2013-09-18 13:13:08 <jgarzik> yes, this also pursues my goal of autonomous agents :)
787 2013-09-18 13:13:30 <jgarzik> in general it wants a "human communication layer", supporting email, voice, and other common methods
788 2013-09-18 13:13:34 <TD> i gave a talk on the topic of agents a fwe weeks ago
789 2013-09-18 13:13:44 <jgarzik> TD, putting code towards that goal...
790 2013-09-18 13:13:46 <TD> i am trying to get the organisers of that conf to put the videos online. will be annoyed if they don't
791 2013-09-18 13:13:49 <jgarzik> (and a thousand other projects)
792 2013-09-18 13:13:59 <TD> i discussed how before you can have agents, you need a "TradeNet"
793 2013-09-18 13:14:12 <TD> like a p2p network that allows buyers and sellers to find each other and negotiate, all using standardised protocols
794 2013-09-18 13:14:19 <TD> because otherwise agents can't directly compete with humans
795 2013-09-18 13:14:32 Gnaf has joined
796 2013-09-18 13:14:37 <TD> the more you dig into the agents concept the deeper and more complicated it gets, really ....
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799 2013-09-18 13:15:04 <jgarzik> TD, I also want to work on APIs and interfaces for hiring humans, which, Amazon Mechanical Turk nonwithstanding, the tools and interfaces are quite immature and primitive
800 2013-09-18 13:15:42 <jgarzik> Ideally my security robot should be able to post a proposal on bitcointalk, and handle responses
801 2013-09-18 13:15:55 <jgarzik> (specially formatted responses, parsing random English is a bit much, even with speech recog)
802 2013-09-18 13:16:46 <CodeShark> I prefer chat commands :p
803 2013-09-18 13:16:49 <TD> haha. you have no idea ;)
804 2013-09-18 13:17:00 <TD> i'd prefer to see hard protocols over a p2p network with GUIs for interaction
805 2013-09-18 13:17:12 <TD> no reason to bitcointalk some kind of SPOF
806 2013-09-18 13:17:30 <TD> but even deeper than some way to find and negotiate with agents, you need lots and lots of low trust protocols
807 2013-09-18 13:17:38 _ingsoc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
808 2013-09-18 13:17:38 <jgarzik> TD, that was an example. the general point being: the robot should be able to $post on $forum, and $read $responses
809 2013-09-18 13:17:40 <TD> otherwise agents are just gonna get killed instantly by greedy and much more intelligent humans
810 2013-09-18 13:18:04 <TD> well ..... maybe. i'm not so sure. you could sink a lot of time into working with interfaces designed for humans like forums and text.
811 2013-09-18 13:18:10 <jgarzik> nods. not just low-trust protocolsÂ
you need economics and game theory preventing cheating.
812 2013-09-18 13:18:24 <TD> i think trusted computing can go a long way actually
813 2013-09-18 13:18:25 <CodeShark> and possibly law
814 2013-09-18 13:18:31 <jgarzik> if you want to hire humans and work with humans, you go where the humans are.
815 2013-09-18 13:18:35 <jgarzik> that simple.
816 2013-09-18 13:18:37 <TD> in some cases it's the only solution. for instance, an agent wishes to rent some server time to run on
817 2013-09-18 13:18:43 <Ry4an> Cory Doctorow's Eastern Standard Tribe had a pretty good mockup of a mediated system wherein one character got a lawyer he'd never met working a jurisdiction he'd never visited vetted and tasked w/ reviewing a contract as a discretely tracked, escrowed work item.
818 2013-09-18 13:18:48 <TD> so it uploads itself to the new server, copies its wallet there ..... boom it's gone.
819 2013-09-18 13:18:57 <TD> to solve that you really need hardware security so the owner of the server can't steal the wallet
820 2013-09-18 13:19:03 helo_ is now known as helo
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822 2013-09-18 13:19:24 <TD> intel SGX should make this a lot easier than it is today
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824 2013-09-18 13:20:33 <jgarzik> hardware solutions are helpful, but ultimately you need to figure out ways to prevent the server owner stealing funds via access exclusion -- don't let them get access to 100% of the private keys ever
825 2013-09-18 13:21:03 <TD> that's hard.
826 2013-09-18 13:21:16 <TD> esp as the agent can be sybil attacked. how does it know the two best offers on the market aren't really from the same guy?
827 2013-09-18 13:21:58 <jgarzik> TD, bootstrappingÂ
that problem assumes the robot does not have existing, trusted servers to live on, and cannot test new solutions short/medium term
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829 2013-09-18 13:22:22 <jgarzik> TD, StorJ post covers some of that
830 2013-09-18 13:23:03 <TD> yea, again, i bet it's easy for humans to come up with attacks on whatever algorithms you invent. the storj approach is fine as far as it goes (for a/b testing new code, etc) but having humans scam agents out of their wallets would be a big deal
831 2013-09-18 13:23:12 <TD> and you can't solve that with a/b testing
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836 2013-09-18 13:24:57 <jgarzik> TD, "StorJ isn't smart enough to judge bad proposals on its own instead it forms agreements that make it unprofitable to cheat."
837 2013-09-18 13:25:09 <TD> easy to say that!
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839 2013-09-18 13:25:14 <jgarzik> hehe
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842 2013-09-18 13:25:46 <jgarzik> Yah, those business models depend on investors placing above average faith and funds into the scheme
843 2013-09-18 13:26:11 <jgarzik> Which might not happen (current practice) or might happen (robots are valuable and useful in this new trust model)
844 2013-09-18 13:26:15 <TD> being an agent would sort of be like running a business in somalia or some other place where law enforcement has just broken down
845 2013-09-18 13:26:21 <TD> everyone would be out to get you
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847 2013-09-18 13:26:33 <TD> a secure CPU in this case would be like your "home base"
848 2013-09-18 13:27:23 <jgarzik> TD, ultimately you cannot escape human awareness of the robot, and therefore human control
849 2013-09-18 13:27:31 <jgarzik> or if not control, DoS
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851 2013-09-18 13:27:59 CodeShark has quit (Quit: Goodbye)
852 2013-09-18 13:28:05 <TD> DoS, sure
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854 2013-09-18 13:29:22 <jgarzik> Controlling when a robot is online or offline is a significant measure of control
855 2013-09-18 13:30:10 <jgarzik> That's why my security robot does Paxos and some other distributed coordination bits
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858 2013-09-18 13:30:50 <jgarzik> A "robot" is defined a core identity (SIN, an ECDSA key scheme like bitcoin addresses). One or more servers may participate in the singular identity.
859 2013-09-18 13:31:32 <sipa> as long as the singular identity isn't a singularity
860 2013-09-18 13:31:33 <jgarzik> It's not a botnet per se, because all are designed to Act As One, that is, reach a consensus on incoming commands, or actions to be taken
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862 2013-09-18 13:31:49 <jgarzik> sipa, that's the 3D printing module...
863 2013-09-18 13:31:58 <jgarzik> once the robot owns a 3D printer and a smelter...
864 2013-09-18 13:32:01 <jgarzik> ;p
865 2013-09-18 13:32:20 <helo> and child laborers
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868 2013-09-18 13:33:14 <TD> i have to say i'm very much looking forward to SGX
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870 2013-09-18 13:33:26 <TD> it seems they finally designed a usable trusted computing platform that might actually work
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875 2013-09-18 13:35:20 <TD> lolz. their case study is a secure video chat app - work sponsored by the DHS
876 2013-09-18 13:37:04 <sipa> TD: going to the meetup this evening?
877 2013-09-18 13:37:07 <TD> wow nice. 4 devs, 4 qa guys for 4 months to build the secure video chat prototype. size of the enclave, only 32mb
878 2013-09-18 13:37:13 <TD> sipa: the one with vitaly? i might do yes
879 2013-09-18 13:37:18 <TD> probably will
880 2013-09-18 13:37:19 <sipa> i probably will
881 2013-09-18 13:37:25 <sipa> i don't think i've met him
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885 2013-09-18 13:43:59 <TD> sipa: yeah. the meetup with jon was good. it was huge
886 2013-09-18 13:44:05 <TD> the meetups have grown so much!
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909 2013-09-18 14:20:50 <sipa> Timeout: aborting command ``/mnt/bitcoin/qa/pull-tester/pull-tester.sh'' with signal 9
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928 2013-09-18 14:44:12 <TD> ah finally!
929 2013-09-18 14:44:18 <TD> someone serious is implementing the ripple p2p exchange concept
930 2013-09-18 14:44:20 <TD> https://github.com/zeroreserve/ZeroReserve/wiki
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933 2013-09-18 14:46:58 <gmaxwell> cool.
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956 2013-09-18 15:36:54 <TD> sipa: will you be eating dinner at the office?
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958 2013-09-18 15:39:44 <sipa> TD: yeah
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960 2013-09-18 15:40:05 <TD> sipa: let me know when you go down and i'll join you
961 2013-09-18 15:40:11 <TD> then i guess we can head over after that
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965 2013-09-18 15:46:32 <imton> guys, I need a little of your help. I am building an a service using btcs. I am having trouble with private keys storage/handling.
966 2013-09-18 15:48:18 <imton> to put it simple, my problem is that when a person sells their btcs and they deposit them to us, from that time that the seller of btcs creates the a sell order, I need to be prepared to automatically transfer that btcs to the buyer when a buyer , well, buys.
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968 2013-09-18 15:49:13 <imton> So, how can I securely store that address private key that the seller sent the btcs to to automatically transfer the btcs to the buyer when a buyer buys.?
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971 2013-09-18 15:55:52 <kjj> you need a hot/cold wallet setup.
972 2013-09-18 15:58:49 <imton> kjj ok. but I think that can't resolve the problem. My ideal situation would be a way in that private keys are symmetrically encrypted so if in worst scenario an attacker get access to the DB get can't do nothing with the privkeys.
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974 2013-09-18 15:59:42 <sipa> imton: who has the keys?
975 2013-09-18 15:59:53 <sipa> the symmetric encryption keys, i mean
976 2013-09-18 16:00:39 <imton> We have the priv keys, but my idea what to encrypt them with their password, so they only can "unlock" them.
977 2013-09-18 16:01:02 <imton> with AES 256.
978 2013-09-18 16:01:24 <sipa> how do they send you the key?
979 2013-09-18 16:01:32 <kjj> you ever hear of a man-in-the-middle?
980 2013-09-18 16:01:38 <imton> of course
981 2013-09-18 16:01:58 <imton> We tell sellers to send BTCs to "X" address.
982 2013-09-18 16:02:12 <imton> that creates an "sell order".
983 2013-09-18 16:02:38 <imton> It will all handled in a secure connection, HTTPS.
984 2013-09-18 16:02:42 <kjj> don't take this the wrong way, but you should seriously reconsider creating an exchange
985 2013-09-18 16:03:23 <imton> I have been months on this, so I will do it. I need to in fact :)
986 2013-09-18 16:04:23 <imton> anyways, my problem is that at the time the seller creates the order, if I have the private key encrypted he will be the only person able to "unlock"/decrypt that priv key.
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988 2013-09-18 16:04:45 <imton> if a buyer buys his btcs say 10 hours later...
989 2013-09-18 16:04:58 <imton> I would need to ask the seller to enter the password
990 2013-09-18 16:05:13 <Belxjander> imton: well the security you are discussing is more for "immediate" buy and sell orders right ?
991 2013-09-18 16:05:29 <imton> an unlock it and at the same time the buyer ask the same to encrypt that priv key with the buyer pass. it does not make sense to do this way.
992 2013-09-18 16:05:39 <imton> Belxjander right...
993 2013-09-18 16:06:00 <imton> I need another strategy
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997 2013-09-18 16:07:23 <Belxjander> imton: you can always "proxy" the key exchange and use pregenerated "garbage" tokens
998 2013-09-18 16:07:35 <imton> What I thought as a solution is that at the time the seller makes a sell order, I could decrypt the priv key at that time and let that priv key in plain text on the db until a buyer buys it and then encrypt it with buyer's pass.
999 2013-09-18 16:07:52 <Belxjander> imton: when the "buy" and "sell" happen... the buyer and seller can transfer direct and both "return" the tokens for the transaction
1000 2013-09-18 16:08:00 <imton> Belxjander I am not sure I understand that...
1001 2013-09-18 16:08:29 <Belxjander> imton: make your own keys and treat the DB itself as a security nightmare of a "hot wallet"...
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1003 2013-09-18 16:09:06 <Belxjander> imton: give each "buyer" and "seller" a token address in the DB (so the entire DB becomes a "wallet" and the tokens are addresses in the DB)
1004 2013-09-18 16:09:18 <sipa> imton: why creates thiese keys?
1005 2013-09-18 16:09:21 <sipa> imton: you, or them?
1006 2013-09-18 16:09:58 <Belxjander> imton: its a really obnoxious problem and then some
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1008 2013-09-18 16:10:18 <Belxjander> imton: as you have to default to distrust everything and only have anything happen after confirmation
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1010 2013-09-18 16:14:16 <imton> sipa: I create the address when the seller creates a sell order. Immediately I encrypt the priv key with the user password (i ask them to enter it again)
1011 2013-09-18 16:15:03 <sipa> ok, so what is the problem?
1012 2013-09-18 16:15:51 <sipa> it seems weird to rely on your users' own security to protect a key you're managing
1013 2013-09-18 16:16:14 <sipa> (also consider the case where they lose the password and blame you for not being able to recover it)
1014 2013-09-18 16:17:25 <imton> sipa: the idea is to encrypt the private key twice. 1) symmetrically with user pass AES256 and 2) asymmetrically RSA with a Pub Key of ours. In case of recovery/pass lost, they will need to contact us. makes sense?
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1016 2013-09-18 16:20:41 <imton> The problem is this. Me -seller- create a sell order. It asks me my password again, the services encrypt the priv key with his pass, and then it tells me to send the BTCs to X address. Then the seller put that order on the marketplace to sell. A buyer can only buys others people (sellers) orders entirely.
1017 2013-09-18 16:22:04 <Belxjander> imton: an "all or nothing" approach?
1018 2013-09-18 16:22:23 <Belxjander> imton: I just outlined an idea in PM which may let you allow partials as well
1019 2013-09-18 16:22:40 <Belxjander> or at least a "change address" enabled approach
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1021 2013-09-18 16:23:16 <imton> If I decrypt that seller's order privkey at the time he puts the order to sell, from the time that order is "waiting for a buyer" till a buyers buy, in the worst scenario an attacker takes control of the db he can read that privkey in plain text.
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1025 2013-09-18 16:23:49 <gmaxwell> imton: I'm not sure why you're going through all this complexity for a sevice where you can still steal all the coins, seems like a pretext.
1026 2013-09-18 16:24:15 <imton> gmaxwell: you mean "us" as a service?
1027 2013-09-18 16:24:24 <imton> well, yes, of course, but we won't.
1028 2013-09-18 16:24:33 <gmaxwell> until you get hacked.
1029 2013-09-18 16:24:36 <gmaxwell> or "hacked"
1030 2013-09-18 16:24:44 <imton> well, that is what I am trying to solve.
1031 2013-09-18 16:24:45 <imton> :)
1032 2013-09-18 16:24:58 <imton> or say.. prevent.
1033 2013-09-18 16:25:00 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: I just outlined an idea to him in private... which kind of defeats the sysadmin access problem as well
1034 2013-09-18 16:25:06 <gmaxwell> except, it doesn't the hacker has the same capability you do, they just lurk capturing all the keys.
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1036 2013-09-18 16:25:50 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: maybe I should outline here what I threw at him in PM ?
1037 2013-09-18 16:26:00 <gmaxwell> If you instead escrow coins to prevent doublespending you could make theft basically impossible, but making the UI workable is another matter.
1038 2013-09-18 16:26:02 <Belxjander> maybe you can spot a hole I can't see with my sleep addled brain?
1039 2013-09-18 16:26:16 <gmaxwell> This is really not the forum for service discussions. :-/
1040 2013-09-18 16:26:25 <gmaxwell> (but we don't really have a better one)
1041 2013-09-18 16:26:29 <Belxjander> is -tech better ?
1042 2013-09-18 16:27:04 <gmaxwell> probably.
1043 2013-09-18 16:27:19 <Belxjander> well I am already there as well
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1045 2013-09-18 16:31:47 <imton> gmaxwell: I thought using escrow but I don't think that would solve the problem, oh I am a UI/UX designer, so that won't be a problem at all :) I need help in the other internal part :)
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1047 2013-09-18 16:32:08 <Belxjander> imton: I'm better with underlying systems myself
1048 2013-09-18 16:32:13 <imton> gmaxwell using escrow how would you solve that problem?
1049 2013-09-18 16:32:26 <Luke-Jr> imton: UI eh? what do you think of this? http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130830-ReceiveMockup.png
1050 2013-09-18 16:32:28 <Belxjander> just a bit braindead due to lack of sleep
1051 2013-09-18 16:33:10 <imton> Luke-Jr: you mean, what do I think about the UI?
1052 2013-09-18 16:33:29 <Luke-Jr> well, yeah. it's a mockup, there's nothing except UI there :P
1053 2013-09-18 16:34:02 <Luke-Jr> the technical goal is to prevent people from using addresses more than once
1054 2013-09-18 16:34:59 <TD> i think we'll need something like that for making payment requests
1055 2013-09-18 16:35:11 <imton> Luke-Jr ok let me see
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1061 2013-09-18 16:41:53 <imton> Luke-Jr I don't see anything wrong with that UI, it's pretty simple and that a good thing. Aesthetically I would try to remove as much borders as possible, fix spaces between UI elements to be more consistent and more clean.
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1063 2013-09-18 16:42:45 <sipa> TD: food?
1064 2013-09-18 16:42:53 <TD> yeah. see you in milliways?
1065 2013-09-18 16:42:57 <sipa> oki
1066 2013-09-18 16:43:01 <Luke-Jr> lol
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1078 2013-09-18 16:46:28 <Ry4an> Luke-Jr: "Enter the name of who this payment will be from" might be better as "Enter the name of the payer"
1079 2013-09-18 16:46:38 <Ry4an> or something like it, that original is pretty contorted.
1080 2013-09-18 16:49:34 <imton> Luke-Jr I agree with Ry4an and also, the first time I used bitcoin-qt I just couldn't understand what "label" was for
1081 2013-09-18 16:49:48 <imton> So I think label should be re-written or explained in another way.
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1083 2013-09-18 16:50:05 <imton> "Enter a label for this transaction" doesn't explain much.
1084 2013-09-18 16:50:39 <imton> and in "Amount" maybe a "0.00" placeholder would be nice.
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1086 2013-09-18 16:52:01 <Luke-Jr> s/label/notes?
1087 2013-09-18 16:53:08 <Ry4an> "memo" is the name US-ians are used to using to describe transactions on our checks and online banking, but I've no illusions that's universal
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1092 2013-09-18 17:04:27 <imton> the first time I used bitcoin-qt I thought "label" was part of the "bitcoin protocol" it self, but it turned out to be only something for internal practical use. What I mean, I thought everyone would see that text and that prevented me to enter a real label that would have been useful. Maybe if we explain that it won't be transmitted...
1093 2013-09-18 17:04:53 <numismatics> who are (are there any) the osx developers for bitcoin-qt?
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1095 2013-09-18 17:05:31 <Luke-Jr> "Private memo"?
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1097 2013-09-18 17:05:37 <Luke-Jr> numismatics: just Gavin I think
1098 2013-09-18 17:06:09 <numismatics> i'd really like to help, talk to him?
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1100 2013-09-18 17:06:18 <gmaxwell> The person who has been working on autotools for us is also on OSX.
1101 2013-09-18 17:06:25 <gmaxwell> (cfields)
1102 2013-09-18 17:06:26 <Luke-Jr> numismatics: help with what?
1103 2013-09-18 17:06:38 <gmaxwell> numismatics: you don't need to talk to gavin to helpâ if you want to help... Help!
1104 2013-09-18 17:06:38 <numismatics> contribute to bitcoin-qt development
1105 2013-09-18 17:06:49 <numismatics> heh, kick ass!
1106 2013-09-18 17:07:21 <numismatics> is there a mailing list? what needs looking at?
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1108 2013-09-18 17:08:26 <Luke-Jr> numismatics: if you're looking to do some GUI stuff, perhaps implementing this would be a good start: http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/20130830-ReceiveMockup.png
1109 2013-09-18 17:08:47 <Luke-Jr> otoh, that might actually be more complicated than it looks
1110 2013-09-18 17:08:49 <gmaxwell> numismatics: bitcoin-development, also the issue tracker and pulls on github are good background. The bigger question is what you want to work on?
1111 2013-09-18 17:08:58 <imton> Luke-Jr: may be just "Enter a label for this transaction (won't be sent to the bitcoin network)" or something like that
1112 2013-09-18 17:09:33 <imton> gmaxwell: I could help on UI
1113 2013-09-18 17:09:33 <gmaxwell> A good way to get started is to start testing other people's pulls and providing feedback, while working on whatever interests you personally. (though to avoid wasting your time, you should let people know if you're planning on working on anything big)
1114 2013-09-18 17:09:48 <Luke-Jr> maybe a Sign/Verify for transactions (ie, the sending side) would be easy
1115 2013-09-18 17:09:52 <gmaxwell> More people working on the UI is good. The UI is underserviced.
1116 2013-09-18 17:10:18 <numismatics> understood, I'll start by reading up github's issue tracker
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1144 2013-09-18 17:33:14 <midnightmagic> cfields: I don't suppose you've managed to get your OSX bitcoind install into that weird OSX-only broken state?
1145 2013-09-18 17:33:36 <jgarzik> ouch
1146 2013-09-18 17:33:41 <jgarzik> 80+ BTC tx fee:
1147 2013-09-18 17:33:42 <jgarzik> http://blockchain.info/tx/258478e8b7a3b78301661e78b4f93a792af878b545442498065ab272eaacf035
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1150 2013-09-18 17:39:49 <sturles> Bet this user checks his hand crafted transactions better next time..
1151 2013-09-18 17:40:17 <Cusipzzz> sturles: same user did it multiple times with > 1btc fee in each, there is a thread on it.
1152 2013-09-18 17:40:37 <Cusipzzz> at first i thought it was laundering with the pool owner consent, but these txns have been mined by many different pools
1153 2013-09-18 17:42:18 <Cusipzzz> so, we're left with user error
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1165 2013-09-18 18:03:26 <cfields> midnightmagic: which state is that?
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1170 2013-09-18 18:06:32 <midnightmagic> cfields: I thought there was a problem where the block database mechanism (I think chainstate) would end up in a corrupt form and the block database would need reindexing but just on OSX.
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1174 2013-09-18 18:07:24 <cfields> midnightmagic: yes, i hit that yesterday. And i have a pristine chainstate dir if you'd like to have a look
1175 2013-09-18 18:07:36 <gmaxwell> cfields: what you hit is not something that other people have reported.
1176 2013-09-18 18:07:49 <gmaxwell> Go look at the reports, different error.
1177 2013-09-18 18:08:05 <gmaxwell> (though what you hit is interesting too, leveldb isn't supposted to do that! f@#$@ leveldb)
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1181 2013-09-18 18:08:36 <cfields> oh, then i suppose not
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1183 2013-09-18 18:08:55 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: all (?) reports on OSX since 0.8.4 are now read errors on block files. I _believe_ I fixed that a couple days ago.
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1185 2013-09-18 18:09:37 <gmaxwell> Though if someone wants to look at cfields database that would perhaps be good!
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1187 2013-09-18 18:10:57 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: commitid (and/or branch?)
1188 2013-09-18 18:11:11 <midnightmagic> super curious about that, personally.
1189 2013-09-18 18:11:59 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: e7bad10c12ce9b5d424ac273c1c977b88469d46c
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1192 2013-09-18 18:17:54 <gmaxwell> cfields: was your leveldb run with a 32 bit binary?
1193 2013-09-18 18:18:15 <cfields> no
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1198 2013-09-18 18:24:47 <imton> sipa: In your watch-only patch/pull... when importing a new address, the indexing times hangs/freezes something?
1199 2013-09-18 18:24:51 <imton> *time
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1209 2013-09-18 18:46:04 <warren> gmaxwell: copying from your xiph example that uses intrin.h on windows builds for cpuid, does xiph use mingw or that's available only on MSVC?
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1218 2013-09-18 18:49:09 <gmaxwell> warren: it's part of the windows API, and works fine both in mingw and in MSVC.
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1221 2013-09-18 18:51:12 <warren> I don't see intrin.h in mingw anywhere
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1225 2013-09-18 18:54:02 <gmaxwell> warren: then look harder? It's part of the win32 API.
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1227 2013-09-18 18:54:33 <warren> gmaxwell: searching google, it seems mingw32 was missing it until later versions than what we have in gitian
1228 2013-09-18 18:54:56 <gmaxwell> then use inline asm
1229 2013-09-18 18:55:33 <jgarzik> warren, PS I already gave you portable inline asm cpuid code
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1231 2013-09-18 18:56:01 <warren> inline asm doesn't work on windows 64
1232 2013-09-18 18:56:22 <gmaxwell> ... you always have SSE2 there.
1233 2013-09-18 18:56:35 <warren> true
1234 2013-09-18 18:56:41 <warren> gah... stupid mess
1235 2013-09-18 18:56:49 <jgarzik> inline asm works just fine on windows 64
1236 2013-09-18 18:56:49 <gmaxwell> you also cannot compile with mingw32 for that.
1237 2013-09-18 18:56:56 <warren> jgarzik: not with MSVC
1238 2013-09-18 18:57:00 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: MSVC doesn't allow it.
1239 2013-09-18 18:57:05 <jgarzik> mingw64 will
1240 2013-09-18 18:57:09 <jgarzik> ;p
1241 2013-09-18 18:57:34 <jgarzik> debian/fedora both have mingw64 sets, IIRC
1242 2013-09-18 18:58:00 owowo has joined
1243 2013-09-18 18:58:11 <warren> jgarzik: I'm trying to write something generic for submission to bitcoin that will work on mingw32 (old version in gitian), mingw64 (future gitian) and MSVC
1244 2013-09-18 18:58:11 <gmaxwell> warren: this is how theora does cpuid: http://0bin.net/paste/QJpExlxUWl5jxnDX#6xH9PfJHjGzzV3wd9nRr2h8ZfYjcmbWcLQoOxAxK8/0=
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1249 2013-09-18 18:58:54 <warren> gmaxwell: so just forget about MSVC?
1250 2013-09-18 18:59:21 <jgarzik> http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/cpuid-for-x64-platforms-and-microsoft-visual-studio-net-2005
1251 2013-09-18 18:59:57 <jgarzik> if we haven't dropped MSVC support by now, I think it's dead Jim
1252 2013-09-18 19:00:05 <warren> I don't actually have MSVC, but I suppose I could get it as a member of Apache Foundation... not sure if I'm required to use it only on Apache Foundation dev though.
1253 2013-09-18 19:00:09 <gmaxwell> warren: if you care aboue MSVC use the __cpuid() there?
1254 2013-09-18 19:00:25 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1255 2013-09-18 19:00:39 <gmaxwell> warren: everyone can get it at no cost (they have some basic version available for gratis, AFAIK)
1256 2013-09-18 19:00:41 <warren> gmaxwell: I copied the __cpuid() from your earlier xiph example, only now to discover mingw32 lacks intrin.h
1257 2013-09-18 19:01:02 <gmaxwell> old ass mingw32.
1258 2013-09-18 19:01:09 <gmaxwell> :)
1259 2013-09-18 19:01:12 turboroot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1260 2013-09-18 19:01:17 <warren> I didn't pick the version. =)
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1265 2013-09-18 19:04:39 <gmaxwell> I don't have any great advice for you, making inherently non-portable functionality portable is messy. The important thing is to move all the messyness out of the way.
1266 2013-09-18 19:04:47 rdymac has joined
1267 2013-09-18 19:05:04 <gmaxwell> If it were easy to be clean we'd probably already have arch specific sha256 code.
1268 2013-09-18 19:06:29 <warren> do we have ANYONE using MSVC?
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1271 2013-09-18 19:06:45 <warren> if not I'll just dump __cpuid()
1272 2013-09-18 19:07:31 <warren> jgarzik: to be more precise 64bit MSVC dropped support for inline asm
1273 2013-09-18 19:07:41 <jgarzik> "i think it's dead Jim" -->> note lack of msvc makefiles in bitcoin.git
1274 2013-09-18 19:07:51 wallet43 has joined
1275 2013-09-18 19:08:05 <gmaxwell> warren: you just make it so that you don't get the SIMD if you don't have inline asm. ... which would be the case if the code was using sane inline asm instead of that intrensic crud in any case. :)
1276 2013-09-18 19:08:22 <gmaxwell> no need to make the MSVC problems worse.
1277 2013-09-18 19:08:30 <jgarzik> I'm trying to recall, and too lazy to check git, whether MSVC build support was dropped a while ago, or just in the recent autoconf switch.
1278 2013-09-18 19:08:47 <warren> autoconf switch is still missing things
1279 2013-09-18 19:08:56 <gmaxwell> That 2112 guy on the forum enjoys calling us incompetent because of problems building with MSVC, no clue if it works currently or not.
1280 2013-09-18 19:09:14 <jgarzik> nobody builds with it
1281 2013-09-18 19:09:37 <gmaxwell> It's certantly not a tested or supported platform. Increasing incompatiblity gratitiously is not desirable, but I don't see any problem with "don't have this smaller set of compilers, don't get the asm stuff"
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1283 2013-09-18 19:11:08 <warren> gmaxwell: where does OC_X86_ASM come from? that doesn't seem to be in the preprocessor defines at least in our gitian toolchain
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1285 2013-09-18 19:14:48 <gmaxwell> warren: thats a libtheora specific define that gets set by autotools. Obviously you wouldn't use that.
1286 2013-09-18 19:16:02 <warren> dropping MSVC compat for now
1287 2013-09-18 19:16:33 <gmaxwell> Does that mean that you're going to gratitiously break MSVC or just not support the SIMD on it?
1288 2013-09-18 19:16:43 <jgarzik> hrm. Anybody know whether retroshare.sourceforge.net security is any good?
1289 2013-09-18 19:16:59 * jgarzik doesn't find any deep-dives into the tech, based on a quick google
1290 2013-09-18 19:17:05 <warren> gmaxwell: I don't have the cycles to actually test MSVC, I'll try to avoid SIMD on it.
1291 2013-09-18 19:17:11 <warren> but won't test it
1292 2013-09-18 19:17:50 <swulf--> what do you need tested?
1293 2013-09-18 19:17:55 <edcba> using msvc with bitcoin has been challenging from the beginning...
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1299 2013-09-18 19:18:27 <warren> Satoshi was a Windows dev who didn't use MSVC?
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1304 2013-09-18 19:19:16 <edcba> you really think he was a "windows dev" ?
1305 2013-09-18 19:19:40 <warren> He was something...
1306 2013-09-18 19:20:14 <edcba> i wonder how the fist windows binaries were built
1307 2013-09-18 19:20:34 <edcba> i'd bet on some cygwin thing
1308 2013-09-18 19:21:39 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: my email mailbox contains 46 mentions of it. about 25% of them are from people I consider dangerously clueless, I see no real mention if it by anyone I consider compent, the closest I have to that is this thread: https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/2011-July/035670.html
1309 2013-09-18 19:21:59 <jgarzik> edcba, first bitcoin ? probably MSVC. first bitcoin was windows-only.
1310 2013-09-18 19:22:29 <gmaxwell> My understanding is that its a boring and conventional p2p sharing tool which requires its users to basically join a darnetish VPN to run it over.
1311 2013-09-18 19:22:40 debiantoruser has joined
1312 2013-09-18 19:23:57 <jgarzik> some in the BitPay office really like cjdns
1313 2013-09-18 19:24:11 <gmaxwell> My recollection is that it used overly grand claims for its security model, while having the expected darknet weaknesses. E.g. if a friend of a friend invites a badguy into your clubhouse the security model is violated.
1314 2013-09-18 19:24:16 <jgarzik> I don't think friend-to-friend connections will ever create a network of any size
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1317 2013-09-18 19:24:36 <gmaxwell> cjdns Is technically pretty interesting.
1318 2013-09-18 19:24:52 <jgarzik> the ipv6 trick is cute.
1319 2013-09-18 19:26:10 <gmaxwell> The way the routing resists the typical DHT attacks is neat... basically to capture traffic you need to both do a dht attack and have peerings near the traffic sources you are trying to capture. .. sadly, that means it can't really be secure in an open network.
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1323 2013-09-18 19:29:46 <cfields> gavinandresen: ping
1324 2013-09-18 19:30:02 <cfields> gavinandresen: when you get a few, could you please drop the updated win32 deps on the pull-tester?
1325 2013-09-18 19:30:33 <cfields> i noticed that win32 is currently busted, but the pull-tester didn't pick it up because the win32 test-build is currently disable
1326 2013-09-18 19:31:05 wei_ has joined
1327 2013-09-18 19:31:10 <cfields> i'm about to PR the fix
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1343 2013-09-18 19:46:13 <warren> gmaxwell: I guess I can ifdef _MSC_VER to avoid SIMD
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1346 2013-09-18 19:50:41 <midnightmagic> maybe it can't be rigourly built, but transitive trust models can sure make things a lot easier to manage.
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1354 2013-09-18 20:00:38 <Luke-Jr> edcba: the original client was Windows only
1355 2013-09-18 20:01:00 <Luke-Jr> woops, jgarzik got that already
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1360 2013-09-18 20:04:45 <aceat64> looks like blockchain.info is down
1361 2013-09-18 20:04:56 <gmaxwell> aceat64: offtopic for this channel
1362 2013-09-18 20:05:29 <aceat64> sorry, I'll move over to #bitcoin for that
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1371 2013-09-18 20:12:16 <sipa> jgarzik, warren: quite sure the first bitcoin release was windows-only, gui-only, msvc-only, with a typical windows c++ coding style, and with CRLF line terminator... rather strong reasons to believe satoshi was a windows guy
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1376 2013-09-18 20:12:48 <jgarzik> and damnable Hungarian notation
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1379 2013-09-18 20:13:19 <sipa> yeah, that's the codig style
1380 2013-09-18 20:13:33 <sipa> or part of it
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1403 2013-09-18 20:20:13 <cfields> heh, fFoo threw me for a loop for a while. Couldn't figure out why floats were used for so many things...
1404 2013-09-18 20:20:40 <sipa> haha
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1406 2013-09-18 20:21:01 <sipa> i am impressed by your use of language
1407 2013-09-18 20:21:19 <sipa> i never saw "for a loop for a while" in an actual sentence :p
1408 2013-09-18 20:21:30 <jouke> :D
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1410 2013-09-18 20:22:03 <Luke-Jr> lol
1411 2013-09-18 20:22:12 <sipa> cfields: there are some floating point numbers, but they are prefixed with d...
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1415 2013-09-18 20:25:47 <cfields> sipa: haha. the for/loop/for/while even throws :)
1416 2013-09-18 20:26:00 <sipa> uhu :D
1417 2013-09-18 20:26:17 <sipa> needs an until
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1459 2013-09-18 21:07:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, FYI, GBT on Eligius was turned off, when I tested a couple months ago
1460 2013-09-18 21:07:12 <phungus> Anyone here know if it's possible for a ver 60000 wallet to have an empty passphrase?
1461 2013-09-18 21:08:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: works fine. I used it like every day to check if a txid is being mined by them.
1462 2013-09-18 21:08:53 <phungus> is it possible for any wallet version to have an empty passphrase or "no passphrase"?
1463 2013-09-18 21:09:16 <sipa> phungus: yes
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1465 2013-09-18 21:09:22 <jgarzik> Cool!
1466 2013-09-18 21:09:24 <phungus> how would one decrypt it?
1467 2013-09-18 21:09:24 <sipa> phungus: every wallet version, even
1468 2013-09-18 21:09:31 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: e.g. ./bitcoind -rpcconnect=gbt.mining.eligius.st -rpcport=9337 -rpcuser=x -rpcpassword=x getblocktemplate '{"capabilities": ["coinbasetxn"]}' | grep `./bitcoind getrawtransaction fdba89095def2cf29e9a8850b91daa2a69adb81e88fbe48233f4d12edb5518d7`
1469 2013-09-18 21:09:37 <jgarzik> SEGC chair provides info on secp256k1 curve:
1470 2013-09-18 21:09:38 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=289795.msg3183975#msg3183975
1471 2013-09-18 21:09:38 <sipa> phungus: once encrypted, you can't decrypt
1472 2013-09-18 21:09:41 <jgarzik> thanks BurtW
1473 2013-09-18 21:09:42 <phungus> sipa: I tried bitcoind walletpassphrase "" 20 and that fails
1474 2013-09-18 21:09:43 <jgarzik> (again)
1475 2013-09-18 21:09:46 <phungus> oh geez
1476 2013-09-18 21:10:06 <phungus> sipa: that seems like a death sentence for this wallet
1477 2013-09-18 21:10:12 <sipa> phungus: how do you mean?
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1479 2013-09-18 21:10:27 <sipa> you can still use it...
1480 2013-09-18 21:10:37 <sipa> i mean, that's how you should use it
1481 2013-09-18 21:10:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: he might be interested to know that we have an implementation which does 14,000 validations per second per core or whatever sipa's library does now.
1482 2013-09-18 21:10:46 <phungus> sipa: you can still spend even without a passphrase though?
1483 2013-09-18 21:10:47 <jgarzik> "I am pleased because this curve is a pure SECG curve, and not a NIST curve"
1484 2013-09-18 21:10:51 <sipa> phungus: of course not
1485 2013-09-18 21:10:54 <phungus> :-/
1486 2013-09-18 21:10:58 <sipa> phungus: you lost the passphrase?
1487 2013-09-18 21:11:26 <phungus> sipa: someone gave me a wallet to help them recover funds. It's from a 0.6.0 client and it was CPU mining proceeds, so over 100BTC
1488 2013-09-18 21:11:37 <phungus> but pywallet says "The wallet is encrypted but no passphrase is used
1489 2013-09-18 21:11:40 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, I'd pointed that out in one of those threads.
1490 2013-09-18 21:11:46 <sipa> phungus: so, you need to know the passphrase
1491 2013-09-18 21:11:57 <gmaxwell> phungus: pywallet I think it telling you that you haven't given pywallet the passphrahse.
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1493 2013-09-18 21:12:00 <gmaxwell> er passphrase.
1494 2013-09-18 21:12:04 <phungus> oh ok, that's just pywallet saying I didn't provide it
1495 2013-09-18 21:12:04 <sipa> yeah
1496 2013-09-18 21:12:05 <phungus> ok
1497 2013-09-18 21:12:08 <phungus> that is more clear then
1498 2013-09-18 21:12:21 <phungus> I will now go back to my regularly scheduled brute force attempts then
1499 2013-09-18 21:12:30 <phungus> I just saw that msg and was unsure
1500 2013-09-18 21:12:53 <phungus> thanks for the clarification
1501 2013-09-18 21:14:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'd assumed that G was chosen just so that multiplying by it was easier. (otherwise G is irrelevant, any point can be G and you can convert one G to any other G through addition...)
1502 2013-09-18 21:14:51 <gmaxwell> (RE: SECG chair response)
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1505 2013-09-18 21:15:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: but there seems to be no structure in G's coordinates
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1508 2013-09-18 21:16:23 <gmaxwell> oh! weird.
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1512 2013-09-18 21:18:19 <sipa> i also don't think it would matter much
1513 2013-09-18 21:18:47 <sipa> i don
1514 2013-09-18 21:19:04 <sipa> i don't think many algorithms are variable time in the actual coordinate values
1515 2013-09-18 21:19:17 <sipa> (rather than variable time in the exponent)
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1517 2013-09-18 21:20:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm, but if it gave you a precomputation table with low hamming weight or something?
1518 2013-09-18 21:20:02 reizuki has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1519 2013-09-18 21:20:24 <gmaxwell> (the reason I directed that comment to you was because you've spent a lot of time looking at these optimizations)
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1521 2013-09-18 21:21:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, i thought about that as well
1522 2013-09-18 21:21:19 <sipa> but ultimately you're doing 256-bit multiplications over them
1523 2013-09-18 21:21:49 <sipa> so unless you can get actual full 32-bit or 64-bit limbs to be zero, or very close to it, i doubt you can get any advantage from low hamming weight
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1526 2013-09-18 21:23:11 <sipa> and getting just a single 64-bit limb (or 2 32-bit limbs) zero in the entire precomputed table is a huge amount of exhaustive search for practically no benefit
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1535 2013-09-18 21:43:03 <EasyAt> ;;events *.dynamic.mtsallstream.net*
1536 2013-09-18 21:43:03 <gribble> http://otcdb.us.to/otc/?*.dynamic.mtsallstream.net*&&&&&
1537 2013-09-18 21:43:09 <EasyAt> whoops, wrong channel
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1585 2013-09-18 22:52:36 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=296904.0 < someone lamenting the lack of watching wallets.
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1590 2013-09-18 23:01:06 <gavinandresen> cfields: pong. Remind me what needs to be done on the pulltester machine RE: windows ?
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1597 2013-09-18 23:02:50 <cfields> gavinandresen: for the autotools merge, we disabled the win32 built-test on the pull-checker, because it would fail when it didn't find updated deps. Now that autotools is in, we need to grab those deps from gitian and help the pull-tester find them
1598 2013-09-18 23:03:08 <cfields> (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3014 is a pre-requisite)
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1603 2013-09-18 23:04:09 <cfields> so basically once that pull is in, need to have gitian build: deps-win32.yml boost-win32.yml qt-win32.yml protobuf-win32.yml
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1605 2013-09-18 23:05:06 <cfields> then grab the resulting zips, extract them all to the same path, then use that path with pull-tester.sh
1606 2013-09-18 23:05:28 <gavinandresen> cfields: ACK
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1608 2013-09-18 23:06:32 <cfields> once that's done we can uncomment: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/qa/pull-tester/build-tests.sh.in#L37
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1610 2013-09-18 23:08:37 <cfields> gavinandresen: i have gitian builds of the above, which you should be able to trust in theory (tm). Though I'm not sure that anyone other than me has verified that they're deterministic after my hackery...
1611 2013-09-18 23:09:12 <cfields> so if you're going to build them, mind saving the checksum output so that we can verify against mine?
1612 2013-09-18 23:09:21 <sipa> for pulltester, there is little requirement that they're deterministic
1613 2013-09-18 23:09:32 <gavinandresen> cfields: sure, I'll save the checksums
1614 2013-09-18 23:09:46 <gavinandresen> ⦠but sipa is right, we don't really care that they're deterministic.
1615 2013-09-18 23:09:50 <sipa> of course, it's a nice way to improve trust here, but it's not like someone can verify what exactly is running on that server anyway
1616 2013-09-18 23:10:17 <gavinandresen> If I recall correctly, we never got the windows QT dependency deterministic, but it doesn't matter for final bitcoin.exe
1617 2013-09-18 23:10:22 <sipa> indeed
1618 2013-09-18 23:10:27 <cfields> sipa: understood. this is just a good excuse to verify that gitian is still deterministic after my changes
1619 2013-09-18 23:10:32 <sipa> of course
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1621 2013-09-18 23:12:36 <cfields> gavinandresen: another thing to consider, the gcov tests take a considerable amount of time, since they bust ccache's cache. Is that really necessary for each pull-test?
1622 2013-09-18 23:13:14 <gmaxwell> cfields: The goal there, which we haven't instutited because it wasn't unbuggy enough yet is that pulltester would tell you when your commit reduced coverage.
1623 2013-09-18 23:13:35 <cfields> aha
1624 2013-09-18 23:13:46 <gmaxwell> cfields: why are they busting ccache? in the pre-autotools non-explicit ccache, the fedora ccache usage wasn't busted by that.
1625 2013-09-18 23:13:55 <gmaxwell> Does the cache size just need to be increased there?
1626 2013-09-18 23:14:03 <gmaxwell> it should just be a function of inputs and arguments.
1627 2013-09-18 23:14:27 <cfields> gmaxwell: i suppose that was worded badly. it doesn't bust the cache, it just doesn't use the cache
1628 2013-09-18 23:14:57 <cfields> i presume coverage builds themselves conflict with ccache
1629 2013-09-18 23:15:23 <gavinandresen> removing the coverage computing code until somebody has time to make it work properly seems like a win
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1631 2013-09-18 23:16:02 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: what was the status of the coverage stuff?
1632 2013-09-18 23:16:07 <sipa> i didn't even know we were doing it for every build
1633 2013-09-18 23:16:12 <sipa> what was broken about it?
1634 2013-09-18 23:16:18 <gavinandresen> false positives
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1638 2013-09-18 23:16:30 <gmaxwell> I don't think there was any actual problem with it except that it was too eager and reported on things that hurt coverage due to randomness.
1639 2013-09-18 23:16:33 <gavinandresen> "your code reduces coverages" -- wtf? I changed a comment....
1640 2013-09-18 23:16:45 <gmaxwell> E.g. it was being triggered on 1 line differences because the tests weren't determinstic.
1641 2013-09-18 23:16:50 <sipa> right
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1645 2013-09-18 23:16:59 <sipa> maybe it just needs a larger treshold
1646 2013-09-18 23:17:30 <gmaxwell> Right.
1647 2013-09-18 23:17:38 <cfields> gmaxwell: it's all been moved into the tree. 'make cov' does it if you --enable-lcov
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1649 2013-09-18 23:17:49 <cfields> er, that was for gavinandresen
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1651 2013-09-18 23:18:11 <gmaxwell> Or derandomizing the tests, which I think we've largely done. I'll check if its determinstic now. I suppose.
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1655 2013-09-18 23:18:59 <cfields> though i was really just guessing at how it was supposed to work. it's probably much more broken now than before
1656 2013-09-18 23:19:09 <gmaxwell> alternatively, we could turn them off on the pulls and just run it nightly until coverage is better generally.
1657 2013-09-18 23:19:09 <gmaxwell> "You took coverage from 5% to 4% is not so helpful. :P )
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1659 2013-09-18 23:19:49 * sipa tries
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1661 2013-09-18 23:20:19 <sipa> nope, doesn't work
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1663 2013-09-18 23:20:28 <cfields> sipa: be sure to make clean, otherwise your old objects will get mixed in
1664 2013-09-18 23:20:52 <gmaxwell> oh, well if its broken I can fix it.
1665 2013-09-18 23:21:01 <sipa> geninfo: ERROR: no .gcno files found in /home/pw/git/bitcoin/src!
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1667 2013-09-18 23:21:12 <sipa> ... i suppose i need to actually run it first
1668 2013-09-18 23:21:22 <cfields> well pull-tester is running it on every test, so it's working there
1669 2013-09-18 23:21:40 <cfields> sipa: ./configure --enable-lcov && make clean && make && make cov
1670 2013-09-18 23:21:43 <cfields> should be all it takes
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1693 2013-09-18 23:38:05 <sipa> yeah, seems to work
1694 2013-09-18 23:39:38 <gmaxwell> Is it stable?
1695 2013-09-18 23:40:20 <sipa> no idea
1696 2013-09-18 23:41:07 <sipa> i haven't run pulltester
1697 2013-09-18 23:41:49 <gmaxwell> I mean, can you just make cov twice and see if the count stays the same?
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1701 2013-09-18 23:43:02 <sipa> why wouldn't it? the data didn't change
1702 2013-09-18 23:43:19 <sipa> or you mean run the tests twice?
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1704 2013-09-18 23:44:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: yep.
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1711 2013-09-18 23:53:30 <gavinandresen> cfields: I'm uploading my gitian results to bitcoincore.org as they finish, e.g. https://bitcoincore.org/~gavin/bitcoin-deps-res.yml
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