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16 2013-09-19 00:22:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: heh, for RFC6979-compliant signatures... we'd have to use HMAC_doubleSHA256 ...
17 2013-09-19 00:23:08 <sipa> as our message is generated through H = doubleSHA256
18 2013-09-19 00:23:54 <gmaxwell> 17:27 * sipa is inclined to use HMAC-SHA512 instead
19 2013-09-19 00:23:54 <gmaxwell> 17:31 < gmaxwell> one thing they advise is to use the same hash in the hmac that you use for your signing. I think we could be permitted HMAC_SHA512 if it made (I push up to recover the text I was writing a few minutes ago and abandoned)
20 2013-09-19 00:24:16 <sipa> yeah, i remember i brought it up before
21 2013-09-19 00:26:00 <gmaxwell> it's surprisingly obnoxious to sign that way in openssl.
22 2013-09-19 00:27:16 <cfields> gavinandresen: our zips don't line up, but i believe the contents do
23 2013-09-19 00:27:55 <sipa> ah!
24 2013-09-19 00:27:59 <sipa> In this document, we use the same hash function H for processing the input message and as a parameter to HMAC. Two distinct hash functions could be used, provided that both are adequately secure.
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26 2013-09-19 00:28:39 <gmaxwell> I couldn't find any why to just select K, instead you have to compute K inv and R before handing it off to the signing function if you want to control K.
27 2013-09-19 00:29:00 <gmaxwell> (which isn't really a big deal, but at that point you're half way to doing the signature entirely manually)
28 2013-09-19 00:29:45 <gmaxwell> (and wtf would you precompute and save inv-K and R for?! you're not allowed to reuse them!)
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30 2013-09-19 00:33:05 <sipa> the document suggests ignoring the possibility that r=0
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32 2013-09-19 00:34:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: doesn't it also though advise a loop for fitting into the range?
33 2013-09-19 00:34:32 <sipa> yes
34 2013-09-19 00:34:43 <gmaxwell> seems weird!
35 2013-09-19 00:34:53 <sipa> not at all
36 2013-09-19 00:35:26 Dyaheon has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
37 2013-09-19 00:35:35 <sipa> note that not all curves have a field size close to a power of 256
38 2013-09-19 00:36:20 <gmaxwell> sure. It could be more likely than it is for us, but if you've already got code to handle the upper range why not 0?
39 2013-09-19 00:36:55 <sipa> no, they loop until k is between 1 and q-1
40 2013-09-19 00:37:04 <sipa> you don't need to compute r for that
41 2013-09-19 00:37:11 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
42 2013-09-19 00:37:28 <gmaxwell> Oh sorry! I see, I thought you were saying for the K=0 case.
43 2013-09-19 00:37:56 <sipa> the only reason for computing k^-1 and r, is to check that r isn't 0
44 2013-09-19 00:38:46 <sipa> hmm, s is not allowed to be 0 either
45 2013-09-19 00:38:58 <sipa> which really just means you need to do the entire signing in-loop
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47 2013-09-19 00:41:38 <gmaxwell> Did you see that there was someone on the forum trying to argue that you also need to stop k == seckey? :P I suggested that he also watch out for k==11, since if he uses that value I can also recover his private key.
48 2013-09-19 00:42:13 <sipa> i haven't read the forum in ages
49 2013-09-19 00:43:19 <sipa> (ps: libsecp256k1 just asks you to pass in k, and tells you whether it could create a valid signature with it, so it'd be trivial to plug into an rfc6979 implementation)
50 2013-09-19 00:44:47 <gmaxwell> I know. When I was dorking around with cheating signers I first implemented in libsecp256k1. Then I went and implemented in a bitcoin derrived codebase and was unimpresed with openssl's interface compared to yours.
51 2013-09-19 00:45:19 <gmaxwell> (though yours, however, doesn't have a arbritary point multiply exposed, so I couldn't do ECDH)
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54 2013-09-19 00:46:39 <sipa> now it does :)
55 2013-09-19 00:46:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: ha. ever see this old post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6175.0 ?
56 2013-09-19 00:47:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: no, but i've wondered about the same thing :)
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58 2013-09-19 00:49:56 <gavinandresen> If you're mucking around with signing⦠implementing ByteCoin's idea of hiding data in signatures might be a good idea.
59 2013-09-19 00:50:18 <sipa> link?
60 2013-09-19 00:50:44 <gmaxwell> pairing short signatures are really a lot nicer than ECDSA... no nonce.
61 2013-09-19 00:52:08 <sipa> wait
62 2013-09-19 00:52:25 <sipa> ah, no
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65 2013-09-19 00:53:10 <gavinandresen> fricking fracking, there's an altcoin named bytecoin⦠(makes searching forums hard)
66 2013-09-19 00:53:20 <gmaxwell> I know. :(
67 2013-09-19 00:53:55 <sipa> i'm amazed there is no altcoin called buttercoin yet
68 2013-09-19 00:54:43 random_cat has joined
69 2013-09-19 00:55:22 * sipa snores
70 2013-09-19 00:55:32 <cfields> isn't buttercoin some trading platform?
71 2013-09-19 00:58:02 <gavinandresen> sipa: when you wake up: can't find the link, might not have been ByteCoin, but the idea is to weaken the signature by using some of the bits in k as a side-channel for communication between sender and receiver.
72 2013-09-19 00:58:18 <nkuttler> hrm, is there a reason why calling help() through the api would not list walletfoo methods? i only see them from the command line
73 2013-09-19 00:58:35 <nkuttler> maybe because the api connection is not encrypted?
74 2013-09-19 00:58:36 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: oh I actually implemented that the other day!
75 2013-09-19 00:58:55 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: but for the purpose of making an ecdsa signer that gives your private keys to the wallet maker.
76 2013-09-19 00:59:35 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: spiffy!
77 2013-09-19 00:59:57 CheckDavid has joined
78 2013-09-19 00:59:59 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: my thought is exposing "use this k for this transaction" would be useful raw transaction api
79 2013-09-19 01:00:12 <gavinandresen> ⦠or something⦠(half-baked thoughts here)
80 2013-09-19 01:00:24 <gavinandresen> Lots of opportunity to completely shoot yourself in your feet, of course
81 2013-09-19 01:00:36 <gmaxwell> Idea is that you use your sec to ECDH with the target's pubkey. And use that to derrive a secret that you use to derrive K. The holder of the far pubkey can then use their knoweldge of K to recover your secret key. If bytecoin wanted to use it for messaging he would have had you make extra outputs and then recover the messages from them.
82 2013-09-19 01:00:44 * gmaxwell searches
83 2013-09-19 01:00:48 <sipa> actually, if you do a normal ECDSA sign once, you can do further attemps faster
84 2013-09-19 01:01:20 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5965.msg87757#msg87757 < (knowing that he would have used Diffie-Hellman made it easy to search for)
85 2013-09-19 01:01:20 <sipa> as just increasing k by one means you can avoid the multiplication with G to obtain r
86 2013-09-19 01:02:17 <sipa> it's still an inverse mod n, but you may gain an order of magnitude
87 2013-09-19 01:02:52 * sipa snores more
88 2013-09-19 01:03:00 <gavinandresen> Ah, those two-year-old threads where we talk about all the stuff that needs to be done that STILL isn't done....
89 2013-09-19 01:03:50 <gmaxwell> I miss Bytecoin.
90 2013-09-19 01:04:20 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: according to his forum profile, he is still around: Last Active: Today at 06:01:42 PM
91 2013-09-19 01:04:49 <gmaxwell> Oh well, now we get the crappy altcoin instead.
92 2013-09-19 01:05:19 Diapolis has joined
93 2013-09-19 01:05:38 <gavinandresen> Heh, ByteCoin's last post to the forums: "This is the first thing written about Bitcoin that's been worth reading in quite a while."
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112 2013-09-19 01:47:09 <MobGod> gmaxwell you around
113 2013-09-19 01:48:06 <MobGod> after doing the reindex on the mac seems to be working but now that i did a reboot of my machine and tried to open the gui again it gave me a error about the chain and wants to reindex all over again
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125 2013-09-19 02:10:21 <MobGod> anyone have a idea for this ?
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132 2013-09-19 02:14:39 <Tril> MobGod: 0.8.5?
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135 2013-09-19 02:15:17 <MobGod> yes
136 2013-09-19 02:16:00 <MobGod> gmaxwell told me to reindex thats what i did was all synced than i did a reboot tried to open the GUI again and i get a error need to reindex again
137 2013-09-19 02:17:07 <Tril> just want to make sure if you go ot help, about Bitcoin it does say 0.8.5
138 2013-09-19 02:17:21 <Tril> since that problem was supposed to be fixed
139 2013-09-19 02:17:29 <gmaxwell> Tril: unrelated problem.
140 2013-09-19 02:17:59 <gmaxwell> Tril: he's just hitting OSX disk corruption. Which was improved in 0.8.4 but there are more fixes that aren't out in any release yet.
141 2013-09-19 02:18:42 <MobGod> so gmaxwell what do i need to do lets this index again and try not to reboot i take it ?
142 2013-09-19 02:18:59 <Tril> did you close Bitcoin-qt before rebooting the machine?
143 2013-09-19 02:19:40 <gmaxwell> MobGod: just close cleanly before rebooting and you should be fine until the next release.
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145 2013-09-19 02:21:09 <MobGod> gmaxwell ok thats what i did i closed the qt first than i did a reboot and i get a error when trying to start it back up telling me to reindex again
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153 2013-09-19 02:35:39 <jgarzik> hrm
154 2013-09-19 02:35:42 <jgarzik> anything going on, on mainnet?
155 2013-09-19 02:36:16 <jgarzik> my behind-NAT'ing-firewall node == HEAD, has several connections, downloaded blocksÂ
but is seeing no incoming TX's
156 2013-09-19 02:36:56 <jgarzik> almost nothing going into debug.log at all, which is odd for mainnet. Last log message 3 minutes ago.
157 2013-09-19 02:37:34 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: my bitcoind stops logging sometimes, I think when the file gets to a certain size; but I've never bothered to look into it <.<
158 2013-09-19 02:38:54 <Tril> jgarzik: I don't trust the "connected nodes" reported. I need to restart bitcoind if I lose Internet temporarily to trigger it to reconnect.
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161 2013-09-19 02:39:42 <jgarzik> I'm getting blocks...
162 2013-09-19 02:40:05 <jgarzik> current height 258747, best=0000Â
bc518bdff
163 2013-09-19 02:41:11 <Tril> same here
164 2013-09-19 02:41:25 <Tril> TX coming in about 1/sec
165 2013-09-19 02:41:32 <Luke-Jr> hm
166 2013-09-19 02:42:04 <Luke-Jr> lots of tx pretty fast here
167 2013-09-19 02:42:13 <jgarzik> I've received one tx -- rejected dust -- in the past 7 minutes
168 2013-09-19 02:42:26 <SomeoneWeird> u brokez
169 2013-09-19 02:42:28 <jgarzik> this is a newly restarted node, and I saw this behavior through two restarts
170 2013-09-19 02:43:11 <Luke-Jr> otoh, I have 43 connections and an open port
171 2013-09-19 02:44:32 <SomeoneWeird> http://istouchidhackedyet.com/
172 2013-09-19 02:44:53 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
173 2013-09-19 02:45:12 <Tril> jgarzik: under 8 connections? clock correct?
174 2013-09-19 02:45:33 <jgarzik> Can anyone replicate this simple environment? bitcoind, git HEAD, behind a NAT router, newly restarted?
175 2013-09-19 02:45:34 <cfields> jgarzik: i'm seeing the same. height=258747, then 2 dust after that
176 2013-09-19 02:46:04 <jgarzik> us2/eu3.exmulti (older git, long running) are seeing plenty of TX's
177 2013-09-19 02:46:18 wallet43 has joined
178 2013-09-19 02:46:29 <jgarzik> my git HEAD is seeing practically none -- zero after this most recent restart.
179 2013-09-19 02:47:37 <cfields> jgarzik: ah wait, there was just that big printf change
180 2013-09-19 02:47:51 <jgarzik> OH YEAH
181 2013-09-19 02:48:01 <cfields> i'll jump back a few commits for quick test
182 2013-09-19 02:48:15 <jgarzik> I'm sure that's it
183 2013-09-19 02:48:34 <Luke-Jr> lol
184 2013-09-19 02:48:57 <jgarzik> the new default apparently logs quite a bit less
185 2013-09-19 02:49:49 <Tril> I tried ./configure on HEAD I got this configure: error: Could not link against boost_thread-mt !
186 2013-09-19 02:50:08 <cfields> jgarzik: yep, back to normal before then
187 2013-09-19 02:50:59 <Luke-Jr> Tril: it worked before?
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189 2013-09-19 02:52:42 <Tril> Luke-Jr: never done this before, usually use release branch which has no ./autogen.sh or ./configure step
190 2013-09-19 02:53:17 <cfields> Tril: the buildsystem was added in the last few weeks
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193 2013-09-19 02:58:40 <phantomcircuit> sigh
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195 2013-09-19 02:58:54 <phantomcircuit> so im still having trouble constructing the block header from the stratum stuff
196 2013-09-19 02:58:55 <phantomcircuit> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=7TYxPH47
197 2013-09-19 02:59:25 <phantomcircuit> the expected hash from cpuminer's logs is 0000000047c848a504acdc6d870159665f9fc67dc4c5b0a048f8ddbda9427dfe
198 2013-09-19 02:59:42 <phantomcircuit> and the merkle root that's calculated matches cpuminer's logs
199 2013-09-19 03:00:08 <Luke-Jr> Tril: right, by before I mean the old way
200 2013-09-19 03:00:18 <Luke-Jr> Tril: can you upload config.log?
201 2013-09-19 03:01:42 wallet43 has joined
202 2013-09-19 03:02:35 <Tril> Luke-Jr: ah, sure... in fact I can ./configure --with-boost-thread=no and it fails on the next boost library, and the next..
203 2013-09-19 03:03:04 <Luke-Jr> Tril: erm, boost-thread isn't optional. what gave you the impression you could =no it?
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205 2013-09-19 03:04:28 <Tril> Luke-Jr: I expected it to fail later on, I was just trying things that were syntactically valid. Try: http://tril.tunes.org/tmp/config.log
206 2013-09-19 03:05:28 <Luke-Jr> odd - I don't see the failure it's reporting there
207 2013-09-19 03:05:38 <Luke-Jr> cfields: maybe you have some insight?
208 2013-09-19 03:08:12 <SomeoneWeird> g++: fatal error: no input files
209 2013-09-19 03:08:45 <cfields> that's supposed to happen..
210 2013-09-19 03:08:50 <SomeoneWeird> ¯\(°_o)/¯
211 2013-09-19 03:09:00 <cfields> error is at 11385
212 2013-09-19 03:09:21 <cfields> doesn't make sense, though
213 2013-09-19 03:09:54 <SomeoneWeird> why not? he doesn't have libdbd-dev installed?
214 2013-09-19 03:09:59 <Tril> Luke-Jr: http://pastebin.com/QMcbMv5y - same problem in 32-bits, 64-bits, and previous Debian 64 version
215 2013-09-19 03:10:15 <SomeoneWeird> Tril, do you have libdbd-dev installed? :)
216 2013-09-19 03:10:15 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
217 2013-09-19 03:10:23 <cfields> oh, i bet it's reporting poorly...
218 2013-09-19 03:10:33 <cfields> Tril: i'm guessing you don't have boost unit tests installed?
219 2013-09-19 03:11:03 <Tril> no, didn't install anything extra since building 0.8.5.
220 2013-09-19 03:11:32 <Tril> I have a Berkeley DB manual install too, since they took it out of Debian..
221 2013-09-19 03:11:47 <cfields> Tril: ./configure --disable-tests
222 2013-09-19 03:11:49 <cfields> for a quick check
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225 2013-09-19 03:12:41 <Tril> cfields: got further. now libprotobuf not found
226 2013-09-19 03:12:51 <cfields> Tril: ok, install that
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228 2013-09-19 03:13:01 <cfields> we need to fix that reporting of boost, that's almost impossible to see
229 2013-09-19 03:14:04 <cfields> Tril: also, install libboost-test-dev
230 2013-09-19 03:14:27 <Tril> cfields: qt support requested but protoc was not found.
231 2013-09-19 03:15:01 <cfields> Tril: beginning to see a pattern here? :)
232 2013-09-19 03:15:03 <cfields> install protoc
233 2013-09-19 03:15:40 <SomeoneWeird> cfields, are you newish around here or have you changed your nick? :)
234 2013-09-19 03:16:09 <cfields> SomeoneWeird: newish
235 2013-09-19 03:16:13 <SomeoneWeird> :)
236 2013-09-19 03:16:24 <Tril> ok, found in package: protobuf-compiler
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238 2013-09-19 03:18:53 <cfields> Tril: thanks for the grim reminder, will make docs a priority
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243 2013-09-19 03:31:36 <Tril> it's working and not printing TX in the debug.log but it shows some in getblocktemplate.
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266 2013-09-19 04:15:42 <gavinandresen> Yesterday's pull made debug.log much less chatty.
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268 2013-09-19 04:15:54 <gavinandresen> Run with -debug=net if you want to see all the "got transactions" etc messages
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301 2013-09-19 04:57:54 <gavinandresen> FYI: Pull-tester is experienced Technical Difficulties...
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308 2013-09-19 05:05:07 <cfields> gavinandresen: i was wondering about that. was there an instance hanging around or something?
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319 2013-09-19 05:31:09 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, jfyi bitcoind now logs a -lot- less than normal by default, and there does not appear to be a way to do -debug=all or -debug=*
320 2013-09-19 05:31:30 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, if pull tester scans bitcoind logs, that may have an impact.
321 2013-09-19 05:31:32 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, ^
322 2013-09-19 05:34:56 <jgarzik> heh
323 2013-09-19 05:35:08 <jgarzik> blockchain.info moves to CloudFlare. Centralization continues...
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333 2013-09-19 06:01:20 <cfields> jgarzik: ah yes, it does
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335 2013-09-19 06:02:02 <cfields> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/qa/pull-tester/run-bitcoind-for-test.sh.in#L6
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337 2013-09-19 06:02:13 <cfields> it waits to see "Done Loading"
338 2013-09-19 06:02:41 <cfields> i suppose that explains the timeouts from pulltester
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353 2013-09-19 06:28:42 <cfields> mm, nope "Done loading" unaffected
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386 2013-09-19 07:02:18 <sipa> jgarzik: they weren't using cloudflare already?
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390 2013-09-19 07:11:03 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: -debug=all is a good idea.
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392 2013-09-19 07:11:23 <gavinandresen> ⦠but that isn't why pull-tester is sick, I don't think
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466 2013-09-19 08:59:13 <_dr> sipa: looks like the scalings on your graphs might need another update (:
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481 2013-09-19 09:25:03 <warren> gmaxwell: jgarzik: argh!!!! gitian mingw32 lacks both cpuid.h and intrin.h
482 2013-09-19 09:29:37 <warren> I implemented the native MSVC compatible cpuid method
483 2013-09-19 09:30:16 <_dr> isn't there a standard way like __asm__("cpuid");?
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485 2013-09-19 09:31:52 <warren> _dr: wanted to avoid it because inline assembly is not supported in MSVC anymore
486 2013-09-19 09:32:10 <warren> _dr: I was asked to avoid gratuitously breaking compat with MSVC
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510 2013-09-19 10:49:23 <sipa> warren: i don't get it - MSVC is not supported in any way
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512 2013-09-19 10:51:09 <warren> sipa: huh. I was told to not break it.
513 2013-09-19 10:55:13 <sipa> by?
514 2013-09-19 10:55:59 <sipa> i mean, not gratuitously breaking things further is certainly nice, as it'd make the job of someone who wants to make MSVC supported easier
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516 2013-09-19 10:56:09 <sipa> but if it's such a hassle, don't bother
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519 2013-09-19 10:59:32 <warren> sipa: ok, so just use inline asm until someone makes MSVC a requirement...
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528 2013-09-19 11:54:25 <wumpus> warren: you could always disable the inline asm in case of other compilers, you need that for other architecture support anyway
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530 2013-09-19 11:54:38 <sipa> ^
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532 2013-09-19 11:56:36 <warren> wumpus: yeah, I have ARM support preserved currently
533 2013-09-19 11:57:25 <warren> wumpus: I'm writing this for Litecoin's SSE2 optimization at first, but I want a generic cpuid thing to submit for Bitcoin later. There are ways to make sha256 faster. Not a huge priority of course.
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536 2013-09-19 12:00:15 <warren> hmm... is there a preprocessor define for mingw version ...
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562 2013-09-19 12:42:05 <jonass> anyone here with bitcoinj experience?
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636 2013-09-19 14:40:06 <sipa> http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/525
637 2013-09-19 14:42:06 <jgarzik> sipa, yep, pointed that out in #bitcoin-dev when it hit reddit, a week or two ago
638 2013-09-19 14:42:11 <gmaxwell> ah, that came out while you were on vacation.
639 2013-09-19 14:42:13 <jgarzik> gmaxwell glanced at it
640 2013-09-19 14:42:16 <gmaxwell> I like it.
641 2013-09-19 14:42:43 <gmaxwell> It think it's a mild improvement over scrypt. I should ask the author of scrypt what he thinks of it.
642 2013-09-19 14:43:21 <gmaxwell> eliminates the data dependant memory accesses, also as a side effect removes some of the time/memory tradeoff you can do.
643 2013-09-19 14:46:22 mappum has joined
644 2013-09-19 14:47:34 <Diablo-D3> wait
645 2013-09-19 14:47:36 <Diablo-D3> what?
646 2013-09-19 14:47:52 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: let me get this straight, it ISNT abusive on memory/
647 2013-09-19 14:47:55 asa1024 has joined
648 2013-09-19 14:48:07 <gmaxwell> ...
649 2013-09-19 14:48:36 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: because the abstract clearly says it is
650 2013-09-19 14:49:08 Diablo-D3 has joined
651 2013-09-19 14:49:29 <Diablo-D3> what?
652 2013-09-19 14:49:46 <gmaxwell> my eyes are burning at the stupid.
653 2013-09-19 14:50:03 <gmaxwell> That isn't what I said, I said that it doesn't do _data dependant_ accesses.
654 2013-09-19 14:50:09 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
655 2013-09-19 14:50:16 <gmaxwell> It access memory in a fixed pattern which is independant of the data.
656 2013-09-19 14:50:16 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: btw, whats a cache timing attack
657 2013-09-19 14:50:22 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
658 2013-09-19 14:50:44 <Diablo-D3> ahh
659 2013-09-19 14:50:52 <Diablo-D3> but wouldnt that make it computationally easier?
660 2013-09-19 14:50:54 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: thats where one thread on your system measures timing very precisely and by observing cache timining noise extracts data from another task.
661 2013-09-19 14:51:24 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but how would that data be useful
662 2013-09-19 14:51:44 <gmaxwell> if it depended on some secret, you learn data about that secret.
663 2013-09-19 14:52:10 <gmaxwell> even if its only a few bits it could allow you to early terminate a search.
664 2013-09-19 14:52:21 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
665 2013-09-19 14:52:21 <Diablo-D3> yeah but
666 2013-09-19 14:52:29 <Diablo-D3> isnt that the same as what openssl did years ago
667 2013-09-19 14:52:34 <Diablo-D3> so failued attempts take identical time?
668 2013-09-19 14:52:48 <gmaxwell> (there is nice code out there that recovers whole gpg keys this wayâ¦)
669 2013-09-19 14:53:00 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: scrypt didn't attempt to take identical time.
670 2013-09-19 14:53:03 Silverion has quit (Quit: Leaving)
671 2013-09-19 14:53:14 <Diablo-D3> that sounds like its a bug in the scrypt impl, not in scrypt
672 2013-09-19 14:53:22 psychophoniac has joined
673 2013-09-19 14:53:39 <gmaxwell> you could only make scrypt take identical time if you massively slowed it down.
674 2013-09-19 14:53:58 <Diablo-D3> well yeah, thats what happens
675 2013-09-19 14:54:09 <gmaxwell> which would defeat the idea, since it would mean an attacker could have a faster implementation than you.
676 2013-09-19 14:54:10 <warren> I certainly wish scrypt were slower.
677 2013-09-19 14:54:17 <sipa> warren: ...
678 2013-09-19 14:54:21 <sipa> warren: it's as slow as you want
679 2013-09-19 14:54:28 * warren lame joke
680 2013-09-19 14:54:51 <gmaxwell> cantina had a non-data-dependant memory pattern, so it doesn't leak timing data even in a normal fast implementation.
681 2013-09-19 14:54:53 <warren> I didn't pick these parameters. It is big enough to suck, and small enough to suck.
682 2013-09-19 14:55:21 <Diablo-D3> warren: lol
683 2013-09-19 14:55:22 <sipa> warren: you're referring to the specific parameters used in litecoin?
684 2013-09-19 14:55:31 <Diablo-D3> litecoin uses scrypt wrong
685 2013-09-19 14:56:34 <Diablo-D3> it turns up the cpu hard knob, and leaves the memory hard knob alone
686 2013-09-19 14:56:39 <gmaxwell> though perhaps someone will argue that catena has less security because it would work better for a muxless "dram bucket brigade" than scrypt would.
687 2013-09-19 14:56:49 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: a what?
688 2013-09-19 14:57:32 <gmaxwell> an ideal catena machine would look kind of like a CCD array. Big memory delay lines, not random access.
689 2013-09-19 14:57:45 KillYourTV has joined
690 2013-09-19 14:57:56 <rus> h
691 2013-09-19 14:58:23 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: so... uh
692 2013-09-19 14:58:33 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: couldnt I just asic my way out of the problem then?
693 2013-09-19 14:58:58 <rus> hello. can anyone help me understand bitcoin mining better? I dont get what target and midstate are used for. also when do you submit work to a pool
694 2013-09-19 14:59:18 <rus> vs when to get more work
695 2013-09-19 14:59:37 brocktice has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
696 2013-09-19 14:59:44 <Diablo-D3> rus: if you're looking to write another miner, please dont
697 2013-09-19 14:59:47 brocktice has joined
698 2013-09-19 14:59:50 <Diablo-D3> we already have enough
699 2013-09-19 14:59:52 <rus> its not for btc
700 2013-09-19 15:00:01 <rus> but this is the largest community
701 2013-09-19 15:00:04 <jgarzik> this IRC channel is for btc ;p
702 2013-09-19 15:00:04 <rus> for dev
703 2013-09-19 15:00:14 <rus> the proto is the same from what i understand
704 2013-09-19 15:00:21 <rus> for all crypto curs
705 2013-09-19 15:00:41 <gmaxwell> rus: I suggest you go find the developers for the thing you're interested in.
706 2013-09-19 15:00:42 <Diablo-D3> rus: okay, do you understand what difficulty is?
707 2013-09-19 15:00:59 <rus> no
708 2013-09-19 15:01:07 <Diablo-D3> then I suggest you start there
709 2013-09-19 15:01:12 <Diablo-D3> go look at the bitcoin wiki
710 2013-09-19 15:01:15 <Diablo-D3> come back when you're done
711 2013-09-19 15:01:20 <gmaxwell> No, don't come back.
712 2013-09-19 15:01:30 <gmaxwell> Come back when you have questions about _bitcoin development_.
713 2013-09-19 15:01:42 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey, dont we need more alt coins?
714 2013-09-19 15:01:46 <Diablo-D3> I mean, we have at least 12
715 2013-09-19 15:01:49 <gmaxwell> For _other thing development_ try #otherthing.
716 2013-09-19 15:04:01 <rus> "If your hash is below the target, then you win. If not, you increment the nonce (completely changing the hash) and try again. "
717 2013-09-19 15:04:15 <rus> so you send the hash to the pool/network if you get it below the target?
718 2013-09-19 15:04:44 <rus> then if its correct network sends you back that you unlocked the block? otherwise if using pool it just sends that your share was acepted?
719 2013-09-19 15:05:07 <sipa> rus: you do that yourself
720 2013-09-19 15:05:29 <sipa> you hash the block with the nonce, and if the number is low enough, you submit the block
721 2013-09-19 15:05:34 <sipa> otherwise, you keep trying
722 2013-09-19 15:05:45 <sipa> ;;calc [diff]*2**48/65535
723 2013-09-19 15:05:46 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
724 2013-09-19 15:06:08 <sipa> and there is no unlocking by the network, you're the one who creates the block
725 2013-09-19 15:06:17 <sipa> (or the pool creates it for you)
726 2013-09-19 15:06:23 <rus> but if you submit the block it does not mean its correct does it?
727 2013-09-19 15:06:31 mE\Ta has joined
728 2013-09-19 15:06:36 <rus> its just a valid try?
729 2013-09-19 15:06:38 <sipa> if the hash isn't low enough, it's just invalid
730 2013-09-19 15:06:56 <rus> yea so it shouldnt even be submitted in thta case
731 2013-09-19 15:07:01 <sipa> if it is, it's valid (given that the transactions in it are also ok), but that doesn't mean that others will accept it
732 2013-09-19 15:08:51 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
733 2013-09-19 15:09:09 <rus> just debugging some miners i can see that. they calculate for x time or 100k nonce's
734 2013-09-19 15:09:10 jaklind has quit (Quit: jaklind)
735 2013-09-19 15:09:23 <rus> after that they request a new block from the pool.
736 2013-09-19 15:09:45 <rus> but sometimes they send work back to the pool. passing some data in the params[] of getwork.
737 2013-09-19 15:10:00 <rus> how do they know when to pass empty params vs pass data
738 2013-09-19 15:11:19 <sipa> that's just submit vs requesting new work
739 2013-09-19 15:11:26 <sipa> but really, getwork is outdated
740 2013-09-19 15:12:25 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
741 2013-09-19 15:12:39 <rus> yea but you submit work if you find a hash below target?
742 2013-09-19 15:12:47 <rus> or when do yo submit?
743 2013-09-19 15:12:50 <sipa> yes
744 2013-09-19 15:12:59 <rus> ah
745 2013-09-19 15:13:08 <sipa> well, for a pool miner, you submit it when it's an almost-block (called a share)
746 2013-09-19 15:13:23 <sipa> so the pool can keep track of how much you're hashing, even if you don't find an actual block
747 2013-09-19 15:16:49 <rus> yea so anytime the hash is below target, you submit it to the pool as a share?
748 2013-09-19 15:17:02 <rus> then every 2m ticks or 100k nonces you request more work from pool?
749 2013-09-19 15:18:57 <rus> hum... target must be: target:ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff00000000 ?
750 2013-09-19 15:19:20 <rus> but you submit share anytime 4 trailing 0 bytes? just to show proof your doing work?
751 2013-09-19 15:24:55 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, sipa: any preference for "all log messages": -debug -debug=* -debug=all other option? As mentioned earlier in channel w/ gavin, the LogPrint stuff radically reduces the amount of messages output by default, and there appears to be no easy way to say "print all". Currently you need -debug=addrman -debug=db -debug=mempool -debug=net etc.
752 2013-09-19 15:25:36 <jgarzik> I tend to prefer something like
753 2013-09-19 15:25:45 <jgarzik> -debug=net|foo|bar|baz
754 2013-09-19 15:25:49 <jgarzik> with magic -debug=all
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760 2013-09-19 15:38:11 <gmaxwell> -debug=* is problematic at the shell
761 2013-09-19 15:38:11 <gmaxwell> I think?
762 2013-09-19 15:38:12 <gmaxwell> I guess not, =* won't glob.
763 2013-09-19 15:38:12 <gmaxwell> all is what I would have naturally done.
764 2013-09-19 15:38:13 <sipa> jgarzik: comma-separated list, with 'all' meaning everything
765 2013-09-19 15:38:31 <sipa> heh, was just avout to say the same as gmaxwrll
766 2013-09-19 15:38:40 <sipa> with more typos, though
767 2013-09-19 15:38:46 <gmaxwell> Can we agree that no network triggerable message should have the word "Error" in it unless we want people showing up here to ask us about it?
768 2013-09-19 15:39:04 <sipa> yep
769 2013-09-19 15:39:35 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, some of the non-standard transaction rejections are done in Deep Code, with slightly confusing/misleading error messages due to their trigger location
770 2013-09-19 15:40:03 <jgarzik> with no apparent indication that this was simply a non-standard transaction, that we chose not to relay
771 2013-09-19 15:40:35 <sipa> i'd love to see all debug.log entries start with a standard [date time module thread] prefix
772 2013-09-19 15:42:50 <gmaxwell> right, some things are "Error" when a block, but just "meh" when in a loose transaction.
773 2013-09-19 15:43:16 Belxjander has joined
774 2013-09-19 15:47:03 <sipa> perhaps all those should just be changed to use only the word 'invalid' rather than error
775 2013-09-19 15:47:32 ericmuyser has joined
776 2013-09-19 15:48:25 <gmaxwell> Well right now the case that I usually want from longs is 'invalid' (e.g. invalid block)
777 2013-09-19 15:48:25 tmsft has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
778 2013-09-19 15:48:30 <gmaxwell> er logs. :)
779 2013-09-19 15:49:18 tmsft has joined
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794 2013-09-19 16:21:37 Neozonz has joined
795 2013-09-19 16:21:55 <Neozonz> can someone explain to me the benefits of a createrawtransactions vs the normal way of sending bitcoin?
796 2013-09-19 16:22:12 <sipa> more flexibilit
797 2013-09-19 16:22:15 nsillik has joined
798 2013-09-19 16:22:34 <Neozonz> does it do anything in terms of transaction fees?
799 2013-09-19 16:22:46 <Cusipzzz> yes, you have the ability to include a huge txn fee :)
800 2013-09-19 16:22:51 <Scrat> you get to do nice things like send 200 btc in fees
801 2013-09-19 16:22:56 <sipa> well with raw tranactions you choose the fee yourself
802 2013-09-19 16:22:57 <Scrat> dammit Cusipzzz
803 2013-09-19 16:22:59 <Cusipzzz> Scrat: slow pony
804 2013-09-19 16:23:12 <weex> need 200 btc in fees? Use createrawtransactions(tm)!
805 2013-09-19 16:23:17 <Neozonz> can u set the fee to the lowest possible and send?
806 2013-09-19 16:23:20 <gmaxwell> Neozonz: if you're asking that question, do not use createrawtransaction.
807 2013-09-19 16:23:50 <gmaxwell> Neozonz: thats basically the default behaviorâ it uses 0 fees unless the node itself wouldn't relay/mine it.
808 2013-09-19 16:24:16 <Neozonz> I see
809 2013-09-19 16:24:21 LittleDustVN has joined
810 2013-09-19 16:24:40 <Neozonz> how does it decide that though, and how long would it take for the tx to be sent?
811 2013-09-19 16:25:07 <gmaxwell> Neozonz: it just assumes the peers and miners are like itself.
812 2013-09-19 16:25:21 imton has quit (Quit: imton)
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814 2013-09-19 16:27:36 <Neozonz> i thought it was hardcoded in the clients to not relay unless a .0001 fee was used
815 2013-09-19 16:27:45 <Neozonz> *hard coded by default
816 2013-09-19 16:27:49 LittleDustVN has quit (Client Quit)
817 2013-09-19 16:28:00 <Neozonz> sorry just set by default, not hard coded
818 2013-09-19 16:28:16 <gmaxwell> Neozonz: no, thats not the case.
819 2013-09-19 16:28:35 <gmaxwell> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees (is sometimes a bit out of date, but will give you the idea)
820 2013-09-19 16:28:52 <Neozonz> paytxfee 0.0000 (BTC)
821 2013-09-19 16:28:52 <Neozonz> limitfreerelay 15 (thousand bytes per minute)
822 2013-09-19 16:28:52 <Neozonz> mintxfee 0.0001 (BTC)
823 2013-09-19 16:29:28 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
824 2013-09-19 16:29:51 <Neozonz> ah ok
825 2013-09-19 16:29:54 <Neozonz> found my answer above
826 2013-09-19 16:30:15 <Neozonz> very interesting
827 2013-09-19 16:31:01 <Neozonz> thank you very much for taking the time to explain this to me
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831 2013-09-19 16:37:46 <Neozonz> is there a way to automatically select inputs for createrawtransactions?
832 2013-09-19 16:38:25 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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834 2013-09-19 16:39:26 <gmaxwell> normal sendmany is what you do when you want automatic selection...
835 2013-09-19 16:39:47 <gmaxwell> Whats your application for automatic selection in a raw transaction?
836 2013-09-19 16:40:29 <Neozonz> bascially would like to create some code to add to a pool payout system
837 2013-09-19 16:40:47 <Neozonz> to sendmany to pool miners via a raw transaction and save on tx fees
838 2013-09-19 16:40:55 <Neozonz> instead of individual sends to each miner
839 2013-09-19 16:41:20 <gmaxwell> so use sendmany.
840 2013-09-19 16:41:33 <gmaxwell> thats what its for.
841 2013-09-19 16:41:52 <Neozonz> is there any difference in tx fees rather then a rawtransaction?
842 2013-09-19 16:42:20 <Neozonz> wouldn't it make more sense to createrawtx and include it into the next mined block?
843 2013-09-19 16:42:44 <sipa> i don't understand
844 2013-09-19 16:42:53 <sipa> it's just two ways of creating transactions
845 2013-09-19 16:44:02 <Neozonz> I see, I was under the impression sendmany cost more in fees verses createrawtransaction
846 2013-09-19 16:44:14 * gmaxwell gives up
847 2013-09-19 16:44:52 <sipa> Neozonz: with createrawtransactions you can do ANYTHING
848 2013-09-19 16:45:02 <sipa> including invalid or senseless things
849 2013-09-19 16:45:15 banghouse has joined
850 2013-09-19 16:45:20 <sipa> sendmany will give you close to optimal behaviour, with a much easier interface
851 2013-09-19 16:45:26 _ingsoc has joined
852 2013-09-19 16:46:43 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
853 2013-09-19 16:47:33 <Neozonz> ok thanks, I'll read some more before bother you guys
854 2013-09-19 16:51:27 imton has quit (Quit: imton)
855 2013-09-19 16:53:10 richcollins has joined
856 2013-09-19 16:54:19 <Neozonz> hmm what happens if recipient address is incorrect in sendmany- does it fail the whole transaction? or just skip the 1 address
857 2013-09-19 16:55:40 <gmaxwell> The call fails.
858 2013-09-19 16:56:09 Muis_ is now known as Muis
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863 2013-09-19 17:00:10 <imsaguy> gmaxwell: never give up. You never know when your next attempt might be the successful one.
864 2013-09-19 17:00:37 <jgarzik> ok, Tony Robbins
865 2013-09-19 17:00:49 Luke-Jr has joined
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869 2013-09-19 17:01:12 <imsaguy> :p
870 2013-09-19 17:01:31 Luke-Jr has joined
871 2013-09-19 17:01:33 awaton has joined
872 2013-09-19 17:01:36 <imsaguy> /ms luke-jr different connection method, kthnx
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884 2013-09-19 17:18:46 <gmaxwell> Can someone with an OSX build setup build a 0.8.5 with the sync fix copied into it for https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770#issuecomment-24756647 ? I'd like to get him to confirm that it makes his corruption go away.
885 2013-09-19 17:18:48 patcon has joined
886 2013-09-19 17:20:05 <warren> gmaxwell: our mac dev has been unable to reproduce corruption ever, so we're curious what settings/hardware it took to cause it. I'll ask him to do this build.
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888 2013-09-19 17:22:13 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, if somebody can produce a dmg (installable package), have a few people at BitPay that are seeing the problem, and can test
889 2013-09-19 17:22:39 <warren> jgarzik: I asked our mac dev to do it, not sure if he'll get to it first
890 2013-09-19 17:23:50 <gmaxwell> warren: I suspect it requires some disk with really agressive write caching or something.
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895 2013-09-19 17:24:30 <gmaxwell> the guy on that issue can apparently reproduce at will.
896 2013-09-19 17:25:01 <sipa> we saw people reporting corruption mid-execution
897 2013-09-19 17:25:11 <sipa> which is entirely unexplainable
898 2013-09-19 17:25:14 ticean_ has joined
899 2013-09-19 17:25:14 <gmaxwell> well, that I can't explain
900 2013-09-19 17:25:38 <gmaxwell> unless it's just latent corruption
901 2013-09-19 17:25:47 jgarzik has quit (Quit: Leaving)
902 2013-09-19 17:27:42 <sipa> iirc one of those reports was with someone running -reindex
903 2013-09-19 17:27:43 tmsft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
904 2013-09-19 17:27:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: FWIW, apparently a bitcoin user group concluded it was SSD-specific; but I also have confirmation of the problem on non-SSDs too
905 2013-09-19 17:28:16 <sipa> so the application was never even restarted between creation of the database and thr corruption
906 2013-09-19 17:28:41 ticean has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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908 2013-09-19 17:28:54 <sipa> and the corruption at startup report that went away (only) after a restart is yet stranger
909 2013-09-19 17:29:04 <gmaxwell> One problem is that there probably are a couple people with just bad ram or overheating or radioactive underpants. So you can't determine anything from single reports.
910 2013-09-19 17:29:27 <warren> could that be conflated with the neg tx version issue?
911 2013-09-19 17:29:37 <warren> (at that moment at least)
912 2013-09-19 17:29:45 <gmaxwell> warren: no, there were none of those at that time.
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980 2013-09-19 19:08:43 <rus> where is litecoin dev support for getwork and related protocol stuff?
981 2013-09-19 19:09:20 <gmaxwell> #litecoin is where litecoin stuff is.
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992 2013-09-19 19:13:29 <rus> thiers no help there
993 2013-09-19 19:13:50 wei_ has quit (Client Quit)
994 2013-09-19 19:13:52 <rus> just a bunch of wiseguys
995 2013-09-19 19:13:52 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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998 2013-09-19 19:14:16 <rus> is bitcoin and litecoin getwork share send the same? like the data param
999 2013-09-19 19:14:33 <sipa> getwork is utterly deprecated
1000 2013-09-19 19:14:44 <sipa> but i suppose it works similarly in litecoin
1001 2013-09-19 19:17:00 <warren> rus: stop bothering the bitcoin devs, I told you minutes earlier that you are insane implementing this when many other miners exist, getwork will be removed in the near future, and implementing miners is not a dev issue and you will not get help.
1002 2013-09-19 19:17:19 <warren> rus: it is not clear why you have been asking for days, just stop.
1003 2013-09-19 19:17:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i use getwork, gotta give people the X-Stratum header somehow
1004 2013-09-19 19:20:11 asuk has joined
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1007 2013-09-19 19:25:02 <rus> huh?
1008 2013-09-19 19:25:36 <rus> i just want some clarification on what you send back that counts as a share how to format it
1009 2013-09-19 19:26:17 CheckDavid has joined
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1011 2013-09-19 19:27:29 <rus> wether that be getwork or something else like stratum
1012 2013-09-19 19:27:49 <rus> warrens troll level up. next stage: uber
1013 2013-09-19 19:27:58 wallet43 has joined
1014 2013-09-19 19:33:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: coverage reports are still generated afaik, and the test script that builds+tests still returns a different value if test coverage went down, it just no longer uses that info in the comments
1015 2013-09-19 19:33:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: actually, I think autotools broke all of that, but thats how it was before autotools
1016 2013-09-19 19:34:27 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: no, pull tester doesnt do any bitcoind log-scanning
1017 2013-09-19 19:34:49 <sipa> it just seems to timeout now
1018 2013-09-19 19:35:00 <BlueMatt> yea, other issue
1019 2013-09-19 19:35:20 patcon has joined
1020 2013-09-19 19:36:48 <BlueMatt> sipa: did I ever give you a jar of the bitcoindcomparisontool that "supports" getheaders?
1021 2013-09-19 19:37:35 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, it seems /all/ of the coverage-related code has been inexplicably removed from the scripts in the autotools versions
1022 2013-09-19 19:37:42 <Luke-Jr> warren: (bitcoin) mining software dev is still on-topic :P
1023 2013-09-19 19:37:43 <BlueMatt> aside from generating the reports themselves
1024 2013-09-19 19:37:52 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: X-Stratum isn't necessary :p
1025 2013-09-19 19:38:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: you gave me a link to a jar that did some getheaders
1026 2013-09-19 19:38:11 <BlueMatt> did I put it on github?
1027 2013-09-19 19:38:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: but it didn't give all headers requested or something
1028 2013-09-19 19:38:23 <sipa> no clue
1029 2013-09-19 19:38:27 <BlueMatt> yea, I just wondered if I had generated a jar of that version
1030 2013-09-19 19:38:32 <BlueMatt> oh, I did, sorry
1031 2013-09-19 19:38:57 <cfields> BlueMatt: pull-tester does scan logs
1032 2013-09-19 19:39:03 <cfields> all the coverage stuff was moved into autotools
1033 2013-09-19 19:39:12 <BlueMatt> cfields: since when?
1034 2013-09-19 19:39:19 <BlueMatt> oh, yea, it does to see if the logs exist
1035 2013-09-19 19:39:22 <BlueMatt> but not actually analyze them
1036 2013-09-19 19:39:28 <BlueMatt> cfields: (and removed)
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1038 2013-09-19 19:39:45 <cfields> hmm?
1039 2013-09-19 19:39:46 <BlueMatt> cfields: there was code which checked coverage values compared to previous values, but that appears to be entirely missing
1040 2013-09-19 19:39:58 <sipa> BlueMatt: do you have 'full' getheaders now, or you just didn't know where you put what you had? :p
1041 2013-09-19 19:40:07 <cfields> correct, that part wasn't moved in. it just generates
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1044 2013-09-19 19:40:33 <BlueMatt> in fact, it looks like the scripts wont pass the proper return values up to the python script manager, where it still has code for creating the comments for it
1045 2013-09-19 19:40:44 <BlueMatt> cfields: well, someone needs to readd that to get coverage :p
1046 2013-09-19 19:41:03 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, somehow the jar on jenkins is broken so I wondered if I had a jar of the latest version (even though it doesnt work with getheaders)
1047 2013-09-19 19:41:50 <cfields> BlueMatt: it just needs to be added on the pull-tester side to keep the logs
1048 2013-09-19 19:42:21 <BlueMatt> what? no, the code for coverage analysis was in the build-script.sh, where did it go?
1049 2013-09-19 19:42:38 <BlueMatt> (and should be there, the pull-tester pythong script should be as minimal as possible)
1050 2013-09-19 19:43:22 <cfields> BlueMatt: the build scripts were moved into git so that everyone can run it locally. coverage is run via 'make cov'
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1052 2013-09-19 19:43:59 <cfields> but saving and comparing is beyond the scope of that, they need to be done in the server-side scripts
1053 2013-09-19 19:44:19 <BlueMatt> which are stored in qa/pull-tester
1054 2013-09-19 19:44:19 <BlueMatt> ?
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1056 2013-09-19 19:44:51 <cfields> BlueMatt: yes. but pull-tester can only run one script. it has no idea where the results of the last run are, for comparison
1057 2013-09-19 19:44:54 <BlueMatt> if nothing else, pull-tester.sh can do it since it only runs on pull-tester and not locally, no?
1058 2013-09-19 19:44:59 <cfields> so the comparison can't be added there
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1062 2013-09-19 19:45:28 <BlueMatt> yes it does, it git checkout master first, and then git checkout $COMMIT
1063 2013-09-19 19:45:50 <cfields> BlueMatt: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/qa/pull-tester/pull-tester.sh
1064 2013-09-19 19:45:58 <BlueMatt> oh, actually, no, it has the coverage percent but its in a static dir
1065 2013-09-19 19:46:00 <BlueMatt> where its always been
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1069 2013-09-19 19:46:17 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts/blob/master/build-script.sh <-- old version of the old script
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1071 2013-09-19 19:46:59 <cfields> BlueMatt: understood. almost all of that behavior was moved in-repo in the form of pull-tester.sh
1072 2013-09-19 19:47:21 <cfields> but what i'm trying to say is that pull-tester.sh has no concept of "this run" vs "last run", and it can't
1073 2013-09-19 19:47:34 <cfields> so the responsibility of comparing results falls to the caller of that script
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1075 2013-09-19 19:47:48 <BlueMatt> yea, but it has a concept of "master test coverage is in dir $DIR"
1076 2013-09-19 19:48:02 <BlueMatt> so it can compare and return based on that
1077 2013-09-19 19:48:11 <BlueMatt> and then people who get false positives can fix it themselves :p
1078 2013-09-19 19:48:49 <cfields> but there's nothing to compare it to. you have the results of this run. but each run is an island.
1079 2013-09-19 19:49:19 <BlueMatt> no, because the data from master, ie what you should compare to, is available
1080 2013-09-19 19:49:27 <BlueMatt> see how the old script does it
1081 2013-09-19 19:49:52 <BlueMatt> assuming gavin didnt break the run side, the test coverage of master is in /mnt/test-scripts/coverage_percent.txt at runtime
1082 2013-09-19 19:50:08 <cfields> BlueMatt: please read that script. there's no concept of revisions. it just launches the build tests, nothing more.
1083 2013-09-19 19:50:19 <cfields> if there's more functionality needed, it needs to be added on the side of the caller
1084 2013-09-19 19:50:19 <BlueMatt> yes, same with the old one......
1085 2013-09-19 19:50:28 <BlueMatt> it doesnt need to know anything about revisions
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1088 2013-09-19 19:50:55 <BlueMatt> the caller currently provides the coverage on master which that script should compare itself to and then return that comparison
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1092 2013-09-19 19:53:27 <BlueMatt> well, ok, screw it, it looks like gavin removed all of the coverage code on the calling side too, so...to answer gmaxwell's question from earlier - the status of the coverage stuff is that with the autotools merge, all coverage analysis code was removed except for just generating the reports
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1095 2013-09-19 19:54:22 <cfields> BlueMatt: that's counter-intuitive to me as it requires either hard-coded previous results, or passing results around. the only reasonable way to accomplish is for the test to return its coverage, and the caller to compare with a control
1096 2013-09-19 19:54:36 <cfields> but i'll let you and gavin hash it out
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1098 2013-09-19 19:55:14 <gmaxwell> I tried running the reports multiple times here and they looked stable.
1099 2013-09-19 19:55:15 <BlueMatt> cfields: well, yes, that seems more intuitive, however the calling side used to be "proprietary" code (it had user/pass combos hardcoded) so I tried to keep everything out of that code
1100 2013-09-19 19:55:32 <BlueMatt> now gavin wants to upload that code (has he) so he's pulled it out so...its up to y'all
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1102 2013-09-19 19:56:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: the version on jenkins is a bit out-of-date, though it was latest at the time I tried the coverage stuff the first time
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1104 2013-09-19 19:56:20 <cfields> BlueMatt: i don't think he "pulled it out" so much as everything was moved into git, but the comparison functionality hasn't been re-added yet
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1106 2013-09-19 19:56:57 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell gavinandresen re: pull-tester broken due to jar broken: I haven't touched it, and it should be updated anyway, Im not sure which copy is the one being run, but if you grab the one from https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts and use that, it should work
1107 2013-09-19 19:56:58 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1108 2013-09-19 19:57:51 <BlueMatt> cfields: no, it was present on both the calling side script (which has now been removed) and in the build-script.sh script which forms the basis for the qa/pull-tester/* scripts
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1110 2013-09-19 19:57:54 <BlueMatt> so...Id call that removed
1111 2013-09-19 19:58:00 <BlueMatt> even if justified
1112 2013-09-19 19:58:19 <cfields> ok
1113 2013-09-19 19:59:05 <cfields> BlueMatt: is there sensitive info in the calling script?
1114 2013-09-19 19:59:15 <BlueMatt> used to be, not anymore
1115 2013-09-19 19:59:23 <BlueMatt> gavin removed it so he can put that script somewhere in git
1116 2013-09-19 19:59:25 <BlueMatt> not sure if he has yet
1117 2013-09-19 19:59:27 <cfields> ok, then why not add that in-repo as well?
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1119 2013-09-19 19:59:37 <cfields> heh, asked and answered :)
1120 2013-09-19 19:59:46 <BlueMatt> I dunno where he's gonna put it
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1141 2013-09-19 20:39:06 <jgarzik> hum, I don't think I can trick createrawtransaction into creating a pubkey (not pubkeyhash) output, can I?
1142 2013-09-19 20:39:27 <jgarzik> maybe if I give it a pubkey instead of an address...
1143 2013-09-19 20:39:28 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: pretty easy to just edit the script by hand. :P
1144 2013-09-19 20:39:49 <gmaxwell> (but dangerous!)
1145 2013-09-19 20:40:06 <jgarzik> everything I do is dangerous. comes with the territory.
1146 2013-09-19 20:40:18 * jgarzik is precisely <this> dangerous
1147 2013-09-19 20:40:21 <jgarzik> on testnet
1148 2013-09-19 20:40:56 Odyessus has joined
1149 2013-09-19 20:41:15 <cfields> heh
1150 2013-09-19 20:41:29 ticean has joined
1151 2013-09-19 20:41:47 <cfields> jgarzik: you ever go to the meetups at gordon biersch?
1152 2013-09-19 20:42:32 <cfields> i live in atlanta, thinking of going next week
1153 2013-09-19 20:42:38 <jgarzik> cfields, I have no idea what that means
1154 2013-09-19 20:42:57 <jgarzik> cfields, there was a bitcoin meetup in the BitPay building (ATV), a couple months back
1155 2013-09-19 20:43:21 <cfields> heh, i suppose that answers my question
1156 2013-09-19 20:43:25 <cfields> jgarzik: http://www.meetup.com/Bitcoin-Atlanta/events/137378722/
1157 2013-09-19 20:43:33 Happzz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1158 2013-09-19 20:44:01 <jgarzik> cfields, I should
1159 2013-09-19 20:44:01 Odyessus has quit (Client Quit)
1160 2013-09-19 20:44:02 <cfields> a few of the bitpay names on that list, figured you might show now and then
1161 2013-09-19 20:44:12 <jgarzik> yeah, several BP peeps always show up
1162 2013-09-19 20:44:41 Happzz has joined
1163 2013-09-19 20:45:07 <jgarzik> unfortunately with two little kids to get down every night, Going Out often requires a Special Exception
1164 2013-09-19 20:45:12 Application has joined
1165 2013-09-19 20:45:36 <cfields> heh
1166 2013-09-19 20:47:39 <cfields> understood. I think i'll drop in to see what it's about. i'll consider it a bonus if you're pardoned for the night
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1169 2013-09-19 20:48:45 * jgarzik wonders if he could wear the 3yr old as a shoulder drape, at a bar
1170 2013-09-19 20:48:55 <jgarzik> just drape her over one shoulder, and let her sleep
1171 2013-09-19 20:49:24 Odyessus has joined
1172 2013-09-19 20:50:03 <cfields> jgarzik: up here in woodstock/canton, an accessorial child is nearly a requirement in bars/liquor stores
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1174 2013-09-19 20:51:42 <jgarzik> the wifey occasionally wears, using a front-pack, the 8 month old to social outings
1175 2013-09-19 20:51:51 <jgarzik> no wine has been spilled on the babyÂ
yet
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1177 2013-09-19 20:52:46 <cfields> i'm pretty sure there's a good 'first communion' joke there...
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1194 2013-09-19 21:12:52 <jgarzik> the nice thing about testnet debugging: screw change, just pick a random unspent input
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1255 2013-09-19 22:30:57 <gavinandresen> howdy y'all
1256 2013-09-19 22:31:21 <Luke-Jr> hello
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1265 2013-09-19 22:46:13 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt cfields: FYI working on pull-tester
1266 2013-09-19 22:47:05 <gavinandresen> cfields: gitian-built windows dependencies should be set, my goal this morning is to get pull-tester working again and then turn on Windows builds again.
1267 2013-09-19 22:47:12 <cfields> gavinandresen: great. BlueMatt and I were discussing the possibility of having it in-repo earlier. Think that's a possibility?
1268 2013-09-19 22:48:01 <gavinandresen> cfields: "it" being the pull-tester.py master script? SUre, I'll commit it now.
1269 2013-09-19 22:48:06 <cfields> -redundant
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1271 2013-09-19 22:48:34 <cfields> great, thanks
1272 2013-09-19 22:48:39 <gavinandresen> ⦠but there is a chicken-and-egg problem on running it, so it will still require manual poking when it is updated
1273 2013-09-19 22:50:00 Diapolis has joined
1274 2013-09-19 22:51:06 <gavinandresen> cfields: pushed qa/pull-tester/pull-tester.py
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1281 2013-09-19 22:53:25 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm getting Exception in thread "NioClientManager" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: java.nio.channels.SocketChannel.getRemoteAddress()Ljava/net/SocketAddress;
1282 2013-09-19 22:53:42 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: what version of java needs to be on the pull-tester to run the .jar ?
1283 2013-09-19 22:53:56 <sipa> gavinandresen: i got an error with 6, installed 7, and it worked
1284 2013-09-19 22:54:21 <gavinandresen> ok, new question: how do I install java7 on Ubuntu 10.04 LTS ?
1285 2013-09-19 22:54:31 <cfields> gavinandresen: unsure if related, the previous pull-tester script did a LD_PRELOAD of a java dylib
1286 2013-09-19 22:54:59 <sipa> sudo aptitude install openjdk-7-jre
1287 2013-09-19 22:55:04 johnsoft has quit (Client Quit)
1288 2013-09-19 22:55:14 <gavinandresen> sipa: thanks!
1289 2013-09-19 22:55:53 yubrew has joined
1290 2013-09-19 22:56:32 <gavinandresen> ok, even newer question: what do I put in my sources.list so apt-get can find openjdk-7-jre?
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1293 2013-09-19 22:57:16 <sipa> hmm, maybe it's just too old
1294 2013-09-19 22:57:42 <gavinandresen> sigh
1295 2013-09-19 22:58:04 <sipa> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15197578/open-jdk-7-for-ubuntu-10-04-from-quantal-repo
1296 2013-09-19 22:58:23 <sipa> why 10.04?
1297 2013-09-19 22:58:36 <sipa> or does this run inside gitian?
1298 2013-09-19 23:00:45 <gavinandresen> 10.04 because I dont' want to spend all day upgrading to 12 â¦.
1299 2013-09-19 23:00:52 <sipa> haha
1300 2013-09-19 23:01:24 <gavinandresen> ⦠although maybe it is time to do that. I'm just afraid of breaking the jenkins nightly build tester or something else I dont' know about
1301 2013-09-19 23:01:57 <sipa> can you like make a backup of the VM?
1302 2013-09-19 23:02:15 <gavinandresen> that is probably easy if you know how.
1303 2013-09-19 23:02:26 johnsoft has joined
1304 2013-09-19 23:02:40 <cfields> gavinandresen: fwiw, i run it fine locally on rarring.
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1306 2013-09-19 23:02:50 <gavinandresen> rarring?
1307 2013-09-19 23:02:56 <cfields> though the .py hasn't been in the loop yet. I can test starting from there
1308 2013-09-19 23:03:02 <sipa> gavinandresen: 13.04
1309 2013-09-19 23:03:05 <cfields> 13.04
1310 2013-09-19 23:03:12 <sipa> (raring)
1311 2013-09-19 23:03:30 <sipa> gavinandresen: what kind of virtualization is that?
1312 2013-09-19 23:03:32 <cfields> bah, i always spell that wrong. I really thought i had it this time!
1313 2013-09-19 23:03:54 <gavinandresen> sipa: lookingâ¦
1314 2013-09-19 23:04:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: proxmox
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1316 2013-09-19 23:04:28 <sipa> hmm, never heard about that
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1330 2013-09-19 23:12:54 <hydromet> while Bitcoin-Qt is running, does the wallet (wallet.dat) file always need to be made available to it even if there are no transactions taking place?
1331 2013-09-19 23:13:36 <gmaxwell> yes.
1332 2013-09-19 23:13:45 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: it's not just any file, it's a database, and it's open. so yes.
1333 2013-09-19 23:13:59 <hydromet> for example I noticed my wallet.dat file gets touched (and its time/date stamp changes on OS X) when Bitcoin-Qt first runs (after not having run it for a day or so) and then it gets touched again when network synchronization is completed
1334 2013-09-19 23:14:01 <gmaxwell> it's still watching for transaction in any case.
1335 2013-09-19 23:14:20 <gmaxwell> it's updating the height to which it has been synchronized.
1336 2013-09-19 23:14:33 <gavinandresen> okey dokey, backing up the jenkins VM (turns out it is mostly easy if you know how)
1337 2013-09-19 23:14:36 <hydromet> gmaxwell: "height"?
1338 2013-09-19 23:14:59 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Proxmox is a distro with a varity of VM technologies
1339 2013-09-19 23:15:00 <gavinandresen> ⦠then I'll upgrade it
1340 2013-09-19 23:15:08 <hydromet> hello gavinandresen: how are you, how's your Mac and how is Australia these days?
1341 2013-09-19 23:15:22 <gmaxwell> hydromet: blockchain height.
1342 2013-09-19 23:15:47 <hydromet> gmaxwell: thanks for the clarification
1343 2013-09-19 23:15:49 <sipa> hydromet: up to which point it is synchronized with the blockchain
1344 2013-09-19 23:16:05 <sipa> hydromet: so at next startup, it knows it doesn't have to rescan everything again
1345 2013-09-19 23:16:38 <hydromet> sipa: is the need to have the wallet database file open unique to Bitcoin-Qt or likely any wallet app (e.g., Alan's Armoury - which I haven't tried out)
1346 2013-09-19 23:17:19 toffoo has joined
1347 2013-09-19 23:17:23 <gmaxwell> hydromet: what problem are you trying to solve?
1348 2013-09-19 23:17:29 <gavinandresen> hydromet: questions like that annoy usâ¦.
1349 2013-09-19 23:17:29 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: it's not necessary, but it's probably not unique either
1350 2013-09-19 23:17:57 <gavinandresen> (the "does it have to work this way" question, not the how am I question-- I'm fine, thanks for asking)
1351 2013-09-19 23:18:17 <gmaxwell> I think it's nessary to avoid unneeded rescanning or caring around ginormous indexes.
1352 2013-09-19 23:18:39 <sipa> well if wallets were dynamically loadable, that requirement wouldn't be there
1353 2013-09-19 23:18:44 <gmaxwell> Well I dunno about annoyed, but when questioning follows that path I start to worry that the asker has some odd goal that has nothing to do with the questions
1354 2013-09-19 23:18:44 <hydromet> gavinandresen: oh, sorry about that, I was jut being social because I really appreciated your assistance in getting Bitcoin-Qt to compile from master with autotools several days ago
1355 2013-09-19 23:19:10 <gmaxwell> E.g. a misunderstanding of backup requirements might result in these questions.
1356 2013-09-19 23:19:20 <gmaxwell> Or a misunderstanding of wallet encryption.
1357 2013-09-19 23:19:39 Belxjander has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1358 2013-09-19 23:20:12 <hydromet> gmaxwell: a friend of mine who I am helping out with Bitcoin-Qt wants to keep his wallet.dat file on a secure USB thumb drive and only available to his Mac when its absolutely necessary. My friend (who is not very technical) is paranoid of hackers getting access to his wallet.dat file.
1359 2013-09-19 23:20:31 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: so don't leave Bitcoin-Qt running?
1360 2013-09-19 23:20:38 <gmaxwell> ^ what I was typing.
1361 2013-09-19 23:20:39 <sipa> or encrypt the wallet
1362 2013-09-19 23:20:46 <gmaxwell> ^ do both.
1363 2013-09-19 23:20:57 <hydromet> sipa: his wallet is encrypted, but he's still paranoid
1364 2013-09-19 23:21:28 <gmaxwell> Which is fine, but I'm not sure what the goal in leaving bitcoin-qt running without the wallet would be. I suppose to reduce startup time?
1365 2013-09-19 23:21:42 <hydromet> sipa: he is retired but used to work in finance (but crypto currencies are brand new territory for him)
1366 2013-09-19 23:21:54 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: Armory supports read-only wallets
1367 2013-09-19 23:22:56 Belxjander has joined
1368 2013-09-19 23:23:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you mean the watching wallet functionality.
1369 2013-09-19 23:23:16 <hydromet> gavinandresen: no odd goals or motives here ... just expressing my appreciation for the help with MacPorts etc.
1370 2013-09-19 23:23:19 <gmaxwell> I don't know if that makes the behavior readonly on the files.
1371 2013-09-19 23:23:29 <cfields> gavinandresen: time to consider updating gitian and deps as well, then?
1372 2013-09-19 23:23:32 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, the files aren't readonly, the wallet is :P
1373 2013-09-19 23:23:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm not sure if Armory even needs to use files in this case - it supports that mnemonic stuff
1374 2013-09-19 23:24:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: dunno, it keeps those ginormous in memory indexes, so it may not.
1375 2013-09-19 23:24:33 t7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1376 2013-09-19 23:24:43 <gmaxwell> but I'm not sure if the latest version which will get rid of the ginormous in memory indexes will change that.
1377 2013-09-19 23:25:06 <gavinandresen> If your friend is not very technical then he should probably use MultiBit, not Bitcoin-Qt. And keep most of his funds in paper wallets.
1378 2013-09-19 23:25:26 <Luke-Jr> does Multibit support paper wallets? :o
1379 2013-09-19 23:26:03 <sipa> gmaxwell: 600k $ must be able to do something :)
1380 2013-09-19 23:26:32 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I don't know if MultiBit can directly create paper wallets...
1381 2013-09-19 23:26:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: $600k gets time, but the time still needs to pass :P
1382 2013-09-19 23:26:42 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1383 2013-09-19 23:27:09 Coincidental has joined
1384 2013-09-19 23:27:32 <hydromet> gavinandresen: thanks I'll mention MultiBit to him ... he said he prefers Bitcoin-Qt because its from the foundation
1385 2013-09-19 23:27:51 <sipa> technically... not really
1386 2013-09-19 23:27:59 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: the Foundation doesn't do software development, they just sponsor it
1387 2013-09-19 23:28:01 <sipa> though the foundation funds gavin's time
1388 2013-09-19 23:28:22 <hydromet> Luke-Jr: oh, that's good to know, I hadn't realized that
1389 2013-09-19 23:28:24 <Luke-Jr> hydromet: which includes (in theory anyway) other clients
1390 2013-09-19 23:28:25 <Scrat> hydromet: tell him that he should prefer it because it's helping the network
1391 2013-09-19 23:28:26 <gavinandresen> ⦠and they are the legal owners of the code-signing keys for windows/mac
1392 2013-09-19 23:28:36 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1393 2013-09-19 23:28:39 <sipa> oh, really?
1394 2013-09-19 23:29:21 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes. There is no "The Bitcoin Developers" to own it, and certificate authorities REALLY want to call Somebody In Charge to issue certificates
1395 2013-09-19 23:29:25 <sipa> right
1396 2013-09-19 23:29:32 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: "Gavin Andresen"?
1397 2013-09-19 23:29:37 <gavinandresen> NACK
1398 2013-09-19 23:29:40 <hydromet> Scrat: prefer Bitcoin-Qt or MultiBit?
1399 2013-09-19 23:30:23 apurplehorse has joined
1400 2013-09-19 23:30:30 <gavinandresen> â¦. proxmox is 33% done backing up the jenkins machine⦠sigh, this will take all day....
1401 2013-09-19 23:31:39 <gavinandresen> latest stable ubuntu is "raring" ?
1402 2013-09-19 23:31:51 <sipa> yes
1403 2013-09-19 23:32:05 <gavinandresen> and will I be sad if I upgrade to raring instead of the-q-one ?
1404 2013-09-19 23:32:25 <sipa> quantal?
1405 2013-09-19 23:32:30 <sipa> raring works fine for me
1406 2013-09-19 23:32:48 <Luke-Jr> err
1407 2013-09-19 23:32:55 <Luke-Jr> raring isn't LTS
1408 2013-09-19 23:33:02 <Luke-Jr> which means it's deprecated in January
1409 2013-09-19 23:33:11 <Luke-Jr> precise is supported until April 2017
1410 2013-09-19 23:33:38 <Scrat> hydromet: Bitcoin-Qt. MultiBit is an SPV client and thus not a full node
1411 2013-09-19 23:33:47 <Luke-Jr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ubuntu_releases#Table_of_versions
1412 2013-09-19 23:34:30 <sipa> 14.04 will be LTS again
1413 2013-09-19 23:34:30 <Luke-Jr> probably don't want to have to upgrade gitian every 6 months IMO
1414 2013-09-19 23:34:44 <sipa> upgrading gitian to 12.04 is fine be me
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1416 2013-09-19 23:34:51 <gavinandresen> this is the pull-tester machine, not gitian
1417 2013-09-19 23:35:00 <Luke-Jr> oh ok
1418 2013-09-19 23:35:07 <sipa> 12.04 should be fine for pulltester
1419 2013-09-19 23:35:19 <gavinandresen> ok. Java 7 is available for 12.04?
1420 2013-09-19 23:35:35 <gavinandresen> (or, even better, how do I answer questions like that for myself quickly?)
1421 2013-09-19 23:35:43 <sipa> packages.ubuntu.com
1422 2013-09-19 23:35:45 <sipa> and yes
1423 2013-09-19 23:36:29 <gavinandresen> sipa: http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=java&searchon=names&suite=quantal§ion=all ??
1424 2013-09-19 23:36:41 variousnefarious has joined
1425 2013-09-19 23:36:52 <sipa> i searched for jre
1426 2013-09-19 23:37:00 <sipa> and in precise, not quantal
1427 2013-09-19 23:37:08 <sipa> (precise is 12.04, quantal is 12.10)
1428 2013-09-19 23:37:26 <gavinandresen> my brain is full....
1429 2013-09-19 23:37:32 <sipa> haha
1430 2013-09-19 23:37:38 <sipa> we need codenames for bitcoin releases
1431 2013-09-19 23:37:46 <gavinandresen> NO
1432 2013-09-19 23:37:50 <Luke-Jr> more to shed paint :/
1433 2013-09-19 23:37:52 * sipa votes 0.9.0 "bulky blockchain"
1434 2013-09-19 23:38:21 <Cusipzzz> i suggest food products.... .8.5 summer squash
1435 2013-09-19 23:38:39 <gavinandresen> Lets do what OSX did, and call them all variations on "Lion"
1436 2013-09-19 23:38:53 <gavinandresen> Dandy Lion...
1437 2013-09-19 23:39:06 <gavinandresen> Lyin' Lion ...
1438 2013-09-19 23:39:21 <Luke-Jr> could do pizza toppings
1439 2013-09-19 23:39:40 <gavinandresen> ooh, ooh, or lets use UTF8 symbols.....
1440 2013-09-19 23:39:49 <Luke-Jr> hahaha
1441 2013-09-19 23:39:49 <sipa> uıoÉÊıð
1442 2013-09-19 23:39:50 <Luke-Jr> nice
1443 2013-09-19 23:40:02 <sipa> BîţÄòìñ 0.9.0
1444 2013-09-19 23:40:15 <gavinandresen> ⦠pronounced "java"
1445 2013-09-19 23:40:50 <gmaxwell> Fedora's last release had some non-ascii characters in it... and it broke lots and lots of stuff, enough that there was a debate about renaming it just before the release because things were still broken.
1446 2013-09-19 23:41:25 * Luke-Jr kills the codenaming by suggesting tonal numbers
1447 2013-09-19 23:41:32 <gavinandresen> There is something to be said for changing stuff just so you find out what breaks.
1448 2013-09-19 23:41:48 <sipa> ok, that subsidy scheme is a bit silly, right?
1449 2013-09-19 23:42:27 <gavinandresen> subsidy scheme?
1450 2013-09-19 23:42:55 <hydromet> Scrat: what does "SPV" mean as in, "MultiBit is an SPV client..." ?
1451 2013-09-19 23:43:05 <hydromet> Scrat: Special Purpose Vehicle?
1452 2013-09-19 23:43:12 <Luke-Jr> Simplified Payment Validation or smth
1453 2013-09-19 23:43:21 * gmaxwell recommends reading http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
1454 2013-09-19 23:43:35 <gmaxwell> You should not be in this channel if you haven't read that whitepaper. We should have a test. :P
1455 2013-09-19 23:44:38 <Scrat> hydromet: here's a simplified (he he) version: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability#Simplified_payment_verification
1456 2013-09-19 23:44:54 <hydromet> gmaxwell: I have read Satoshi's "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System"
1457 2013-09-19 23:45:11 <hydromet> gmaxwell: observe in Satoshi's document, there is no acronym of "SPV"
1458 2013-09-19 23:45:31 <gmaxwell> hydromet: it's section 8
1459 2013-09-19 23:45:42 <gmaxwell> Perhaps he doesn't collapse the acronym?
1460 2013-09-19 23:45:50 <hydromet> right
1461 2013-09-19 23:45:51 <gmaxwell> In any case, thats whats being talked about.
1462 2013-09-19 23:45:58 <hydromet> so what we need is a terminology wiki
1463 2013-09-19 23:46:07 <hydromet> because acronyms are a dime a dozen
1464 2013-09-19 23:46:08 <sipa> it means the client validation the block chain, but not the transactions in it
1465 2013-09-19 23:46:27 <sipa> so it may be fed an invalid chain, if a miner would spend work on one
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1467 2013-09-19 23:46:51 <gavinandresen> hydromet: we do have a terminology wiki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/SPV
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1470 2013-09-19 23:47:59 <hydromet> gavinandresen: excellent, thanks I should have checked that first (before the recommended PDF)
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