1 2013-09-23 00:00:03 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I imagine OpenSSL would use 64-bit asm on x32
2 2013-09-23 00:00:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't know what that means anymore
3 2013-09-23 00:00:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: only if the openssl developers have noticed and cared yet
4 2013-09-23 00:00:27 <Luke-Jr> it behaves like dead battery
5 2013-09-23 00:00:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: what happens when you try to start it? does it even try to start?
6 2013-09-23 00:00:38 <Luke-Jr> but stupid walmart refused to replace it 2 days ago because they insisted it was good
7 2013-09-23 00:00:54 <Luke-Jr> lights come on until I crank it
8 2013-09-23 00:01:19 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: ah, at least a dead battery you can get someone to jumpstart you.
9 2013-09-23 00:01:33 <jgarzik> x32 is fun
10 2013-09-23 00:01:35 <gmaxwell> I don't suppose its a stickshift? :P pushstarting is always fun.
11 2013-09-23 00:01:36 <Luke-Jr> we have another car right here, but no jumper cables
12 2013-09-23 00:01:58 <Luke-Jr> tried using a DC->AC inverter + AC->DC car charger, but I think I fried one or both of them..
13 2013-09-23 00:02:02 <jgarzik> jumpstart with phone battery ;p
14 2013-09-23 00:02:03 <Luke-Jr> apparently 300 W is not enough
15 2013-09-23 00:03:06 <gmaxwell> I jumpstarted a car once by popping the battery out of another car, matching up the terminals, started the car, then put the other one back.
16 2013-09-23 00:03:15 <gmaxwell> and I managed this with no tools. :P
17 2013-09-23 00:03:29 <Luke-Jr> the other car's battery also has no red wire/terminal..
18 2013-09-23 00:03:32 <gmaxwell> careful with a non-sealed battery.. acid no fun. :P
19 2013-09-23 00:03:34 <Luke-Jr> so nfc which side is positive
20 2013-09-23 00:03:48 <gmaxwell> battery itself should be labed. also the negative is connected to the chassis.
21 2013-09-23 00:03:59 <gmaxwell> labled*
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26 2013-09-23 00:13:40 <nsh> Luke-Jr, there should be a + - engraved on the terminals or nearby
27 2013-09-23 00:14:21 <nsh> i can't imagine a battery shipping that didn't indicate polarity somehow relatively unambiguously
28 2013-09-23 00:14:28 <Luke-Jr> it's pitch dark out
29 2013-09-23 00:14:31 <nsh> :(
30 2013-09-23 00:14:32 <Luke-Jr> :/
31 2013-09-23 00:14:47 <Luke-Jr> and the battery was too dirty when it was barely light
32 2013-09-23 00:14:54 * nsh checks google images for convention
33 2013-09-23 00:15:03 <xenland> unless its alien tech. There are no polars its all relative really.
34 2013-09-23 00:15:23 <gmaxwell> Did I mention that when I did the move the battery trick it was 4am? and my only light was a old industructable nokia phone backlight.
35 2013-09-23 00:15:43 <nsh> seems about equal on left/right :(
36 2013-09-23 00:15:56 <nsh> you could check with a wire to the ground
37 2013-09-23 00:15:58 <nsh> for sparking
38 2013-09-23 00:16:06 <nsh> *arcing
39 2013-09-23 00:16:20 <nsh> (or car body)
40 2013-09-23 00:16:41 <gcX46> take a wire put one end on a terminal and tap the other end on an unpainted part of the chassis, if it sparks it's positive if not it's negative or the battery is dead
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46 2013-09-23 00:25:12 <prophet10x> i'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but whatever happened to the color coins concept? or is some group developing something open source for creating shares, assets etc
47 2013-09-23 00:26:37 <xenland> prophet10x, moneychanger and bitshares are into digital assets
48 2013-09-23 00:26:45 <Luke-Jr> any idea to know how much "peak-amps" my vehicle needs to start?
49 2013-09-23 00:27:04 <xenland> as for colored coins and think they are working out the math.
50 2013-09-23 00:27:13 Luna has joined
51 2013-09-23 00:27:23 <xenland> Juke-lr: about 9.15 gigawatts.
52 2013-09-23 00:27:39 <Luke-Jr> prophet10x: I'm not sure there's a use case for colored coins
53 2013-09-23 00:27:41 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: cranking amps is a lot.. e.g. over 100a ... the actual value depends on the engine.
54 2013-09-23 00:27:42 <xenland> and half a ton of plutoneum and a coka-cola (opened)
55 2013-09-23 00:27:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: bleh, no idea on engine
56 2013-09-23 00:28:05 Heimdall has quit (Quit: Leaving)
57 2013-09-23 00:28:09 <Luke-Jr> my choices appaear to be 400 vs 750
58 2013-09-23 00:28:22 <gcX46> bigger == better
59 2013-09-23 00:28:35 <gcX46> especially since winter is coming
60 2013-09-23 00:28:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: oh, for picking a new battery? whever you're buying it from should have a database.
61 2013-09-23 00:28:42 <gmaxwell> gcX46: he lives in florida.
62 2013-09-23 00:28:45 <Luke-Jr> gcX46: winter? what's that?
63 2013-09-23 00:28:50 <gcX46> oh
64 2013-09-23 00:29:02 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Schumacher-Electric-750-Peak-Amp-Jump-Starter/25955561
65 2013-09-23 00:29:14 <prophet10x> if the car is a big car or sports car i would go with the latter
66 2013-09-23 00:29:55 <Luke-Jr> Mercury VIllager 2001
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72 2013-09-23 00:31:15 <gcX46> 3.3L v6 won't need much amps
73 2013-09-23 00:32:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: larger won't hurt, would perhaps be more generally useful to start other stuff in the future.. googling is showing battery pickers that have 300 CCA batteries for that car.
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80 2013-09-23 00:37:44 <xenland> DCC Chat?
81 2013-09-23 00:38:02 <prophet10x> xenland: who is running mneychanger?
82 2013-09-23 00:38:16 <prophet10x> sorry not familiar with this interface
83 2013-09-23 00:38:33 <xenland> Monetas company
84 2013-09-23 00:38:45 <xenland> But its supposed to be decent.
85 2013-09-23 00:38:48 <xenland> decentrilized*
86 2013-09-23 00:38:55 <xenland> #opentransactions
87 2013-09-23 00:39:03 <xenland> FellowTraveler
88 2013-09-23 00:39:07 <xenland> is who runs it.
89 2013-09-23 00:40:16 <prophet10x> and bistshares is proprietary?
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93 2013-09-23 00:44:15 <Luke-Jr> if someone is "running" it, why does it need a blockchain..?
94 2013-09-23 00:44:32 <Luke-Jr> blockchain only makes sense for decentralised stuff
95 2013-09-23 00:44:49 <Cusipzzz> to look cool/bitcoin related?
96 2013-09-23 00:44:50 <nsh> orchestration is not necessarily incompatible with decentralisation
97 2013-09-23 00:45:03 <nsh> arpanet was "run" and also designed to be decentralised
98 2013-09-23 00:46:28 <Luke-Jr> nsh: networking is decentralised; the internet is not
99 2013-09-23 00:46:57 <Luke-Jr> p2p, yes - but not decentralised
100 2013-09-23 00:47:07 <nsh> hmm
101 2013-09-23 00:47:22 <nsh> where's the center?
102 2013-09-23 00:48:25 <gmaxwell> in ##bitcoin-dev-offtopic
103 2013-09-23 00:49:18 <Luke-Jr> nsh ^
104 2013-09-23 00:49:27 <nsh> (where all the best car-battery chat happens)
105 2013-09-23 00:50:02 <coingenuity> haha
106 2013-09-23 00:50:46 <gmaxwell> nsh: yea, so when you get stranded someplace an want some tips from your associates on IRC I'll be sure to kick your ass on sight, sound fair?
107 2013-09-23 00:51:14 <nsh> i don't drive, so joke's on you :)
108 2013-09-23 00:51:55 <Luke-Jr> actually, I took it in to walmart for warranty on the battery Friday and they insisted it was good and refused to replace it -.-
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138 2013-09-23 02:35:55 <warren> fewer_fee_footguns
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143 2013-09-23 02:48:30 <warren> anyone have Ubuntu 12.04 installed? what version of gcc is mingw-w64 based on?
144 2013-09-23 02:48:44 <Luke-Jr> warren: afaik, isn't mingw's gcc mainline now
145 2013-09-23 02:48:45 <Luke-Jr> ?
146 2013-09-23 02:49:08 <warren> Luke-Jr: I dunno, 12.04 is old already too, so asking
147 2013-09-23 02:49:11 <warren> I don't have the distro
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151 2013-09-23 02:59:51 <warren> Anyone downloaded protobuf-2.5.0.tar.bz2 from <someplace random>? Let's compare sha256sums.
152 2013-09-23 03:00:00 <Luke-Jr> warren: OH! you mean the specific version with the OS, now I get it :D
153 2013-09-23 03:00:43 <warren> Luke-Jr: I'm upgrading gitian win32 to 12.04, which among other things fixes compiler bugs and allows the use of more hardening flags
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156 2013-09-23 03:01:27 <warren> Luke-Jr: also allows for a win64 build
157 2013-09-23 03:01:34 <Luke-Jr> neat
158 2013-09-23 03:03:08 <warren> hmm, I need to rename these deps .zip files
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160 2013-09-23 03:09:45 <warren> protobuf-win32-2.5.0-gitian-r2.zip
161 2013-09-23 03:09:54 <warren> r2 refers to bitcoin's revision, not upstream right?
162 2013-09-23 03:10:18 <Luke-Jr> yes
163 2013-09-23 03:10:25 <Luke-Jr> -r* is always downstream
164 2013-09-23 03:10:33 G________ has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
165 2013-09-23 03:10:45 <warren> boost-win32-1.50.0-gitian3.zip
166 2013-09-23 03:10:48 <warren> how wonderfully consistent
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168 2013-09-23 03:11:26 <warren> bitcoin-deps-0.0.7.zip more consistent
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170 2013-09-23 03:11:59 <warren> I'm renaming boost to r3
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177 2013-09-23 03:26:48 <gavinandresen> warren: why a win64 build? performance increase for litecoin/scrypt?
178 2013-09-23 03:29:48 <gavinandresen> warren: I ask because I'll NACK shipping both win32 and win64 binaries unless there is a demonstrable benefit to bitcoin users
179 2013-09-23 03:32:38 <warren> gavinandresen: 64bit is much faster for secp256k1 in particular. Not suggesting shipping 64bit bitcoin until there's a demonstrable benefit.
180 2013-09-23 03:32:55 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I think sipa has said for a while that x86_64 has huge performance improvements for ECDSA
181 2013-09-23 03:33:25 <Luke-Jr> not sure if that applies to Windows as well though
182 2013-09-23 03:33:28 <warren> gavinandresen: gmaxwell also mentioned runtime detection of cpu features could allow other parts of bitcoin to be faster. I have semi-finished runtime cpu features detection right now.
183 2013-09-23 03:33:32 <warren> Luke-Jr: sure it can
184 2013-09-23 03:33:39 <Luke-Jr> can != does âº
185 2013-09-23 03:33:45 <gavinandresen> we are IO bound on consumer hardware last I checked
186 2013-09-23 03:34:09 <gavinandresen> Fast SSDs might be different, and might be common enough nowdays to matter
187 2013-09-23 03:34:28 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: doesn't mean users want to run software that eats up a lot of CPU time either *shrug*
188 2013-09-23 03:34:41 <gavinandresen> In any case, dropping support for 32-bit machines and supporting only 64-bit is what I'd vote for. Multiple downloads, with the user having to choose, sucks.
189 2013-09-23 03:35:04 <warren> gavinandresen: on mac, coryfields can make future builds 32bit/64bit in the same binary
190 2013-09-23 03:35:31 <gavinandresen> warren: how much bigger are they? Downloading twice as many megabytes also sucks....
191 2013-09-23 03:35:38 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: speaking of which, did anyone get your opinion on dropping OS X 10.5 support?
192 2013-09-23 03:35:53 <warren> gavinandresen: dunno, let's support his work and see how awesome it gets.
193 2013-09-23 03:36:01 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I think we should drop 10.5 support in the 0.9 release.
194 2013-09-23 03:36:06 <warren> I just saw yesterday 10.6 got a security update.
195 2013-09-23 03:36:09 <Luke-Jr> I think 10.6 only runs with 64-bit kernels anyway
196 2013-09-23 03:36:24 <warren> really? then great
197 2013-09-23 03:36:31 <Luke-Jr> lemme verify
198 2013-09-23 03:36:50 <warren> I was told to assume all Intel Macs have SSE2.
199 2013-09-23 03:36:52 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: thanks, I was about to say "I think" isn't helpful
200 2013-09-23 03:37:20 <Luke-Jr> ah, no, that was 10.7
201 2013-09-23 03:37:25 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: my old MacBook Pro Intel Core Duo is running 10.6.8⦠32-bit....
202 2013-09-23 03:37:26 <Luke-Jr> 10.6 just uses 64-bit when available
203 2013-09-23 03:38:13 <Luke-Jr> oh well, a few more years I guess
204 2013-09-23 03:38:40 <warren> Luke-Jr: 12.04 mingw is gcc-4.6
205 2013-09-23 03:39:00 <Luke-Jr> warren: sounds like a good choice; that's also Gentoo stable FWIW
206 2013-09-23 03:39:09 <warren> hmm
207 2013-09-23 03:39:15 <warren> bbl dinner
208 2013-09-23 03:39:42 <warren> gavinandresen: FWIW, a 30% bigger download is nothing compared to block sync
209 2013-09-23 03:40:23 <gavinandresen> Mmm. and when we get headers-first running, that should not be a bid deal any more.
210 2013-09-23 03:40:35 <warren> gavinandresen: the way you brought up this topic was rather kneejerk. Please relax.
211 2013-09-23 03:40:43 <gavinandresen> ⦠so I'd much rather you spent time helping test headers-first
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213 2013-09-23 03:41:23 <gavinandresen> RE: kneejerk: sorry, you just poked a spot that has been poked many times before-- lots of people have complained about lack of 64-bit builds without data ton WHY
214 2013-09-23 03:41:27 <warren> gavinandresen: the new mingw allows more hardening flags on win32, this is low hanging fruit, I choose to work on this.
215 2013-09-23 03:41:43 <gavinandresen> "okey dokey"
216 2013-09-23 03:42:15 <warren> gavinandresen: if I propose win64 it will be with benchmarks, but I am guessing it won't help much until CPU features and/or secp256k1
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221 2013-09-23 03:59:22 <warren> toffoo: hey, tried that bitcoin build with the macosx fix?
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223 2013-09-23 04:02:04 <warren> wumpus: g++-mingw-w64 is needed too
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244 2013-09-23 05:03:21 <warren> Luke-Jr: hmm, I could be wrong, during builds I see things like bin.v2/libs/timer/build/gcc-mingw-4.4
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247 2013-09-23 05:09:26 <warren> Luke-Jr: #define __VERSION__ "4.6.3"
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250 2013-09-23 05:10:36 <warren> Luke-Jr: <compiler> -E -dM <blankfile.h>
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254 2013-09-23 05:12:46 <warren> Luke-Jr: so 4.6 .. good I guess
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264 2013-09-23 05:36:10 <warren> gavinandresen: Luke-Jr: any objections to making a deps.zip for linux too? it will allow linux builds to be faster
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266 2013-09-23 05:36:54 <Luke-Jr> warren: I'm not sure why we're not just using Ubuntu packages there O.o
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273 2013-09-23 05:46:51 <warren> Luke-Jr: maybe too old version or no static?
274 2013-09-23 05:47:27 <Luke-Jr> warren: maybe; perhaps the new Ubuntu has it good?
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278 2013-09-23 05:58:29 <warren> Luke-Jr: can't upgrade the linux gitian version unless we want to drop older linux distros
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280 2013-09-23 05:58:40 <warren> Luke-Jr: 10.04 was from 2010, not that old yet
281 2013-09-23 05:58:49 <Luke-Jr> we can't? O.o
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283 2013-09-23 05:59:01 <Luke-Jr> warren: pretty sure 10.04 is losing support soon
284 2013-09-23 05:59:19 <warren> well, not like Ubuntu support has ever been good...
285 2013-09-23 05:59:25 <Luke-Jr> but they're static binaries in any case..
286 2013-09-23 05:59:30 <Luke-Jr> shouldn't matter which version builds then
287 2013-09-23 05:59:32 <Luke-Jr> them*
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289 2013-09-23 06:00:01 <warren> Luke-Jr: it needs the glibc that it is built on. there's probably a way to force it to use an older ABI, but I've never used that before.
290 2013-09-23 06:00:01 <Luke-Jr> yeah, Canonical dropped 10.04 for desktops on May 9
291 2013-09-23 06:00:27 <Luke-Jr> we're not static linking glibc?
292 2013-09-23 06:01:14 <warren> hmm, the gitian qt is built with SSE-SSE4, I wonder if it is actually used
293 2013-09-23 06:01:24 <warren> Luke-Jr: nope
294 2013-09-23 06:01:44 <warren> Luke-Jr: aside from qt, bitcoind appears to be fully BSD
295 2013-09-23 06:02:03 <Luke-Jr> warren: fully BSD? O.o
296 2013-09-23 06:03:36 <warren> Luke-Jr: or at least not tainted by LGPL
297 2013-09-23 06:04:10 <Luke-Jr> LGPL doesn't taint.
298 2013-09-23 06:04:16 <Luke-Jr> that's why it's Lesser
299 2013-09-23 06:04:36 <Luke-Jr> warren: and you mean old-BSD, which is actually a taint :P
300 2013-09-23 06:05:02 <Luke-Jr> warren: we *couldn't* use "tainting" GPL in Bitcoin-Qt, because of the old-BSD taint
301 2013-09-23 06:07:33 <warren> Luke-Jr: static linked LGPL
302 2013-09-23 06:07:43 <warren> Luke-Jr: currently as shipped in gitian builds
303 2013-09-23 06:07:57 <Luke-Jr> ah, true
304 2013-09-23 06:08:10 cbc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
305 2013-09-23 06:08:23 <Luke-Jr> hmm, I wonder if that's technically infringing then
306 2013-09-23 06:08:29 cbc_ has joined
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308 2013-09-23 06:08:54 <warren> Luke-Jr: only infringing if source is not provided
309 2013-09-23 06:09:12 <Luke-Jr> warren: source for the entire binary though; IIRC LGPL taints if static linked, as you mention..
310 2013-09-23 06:09:54 <Luke-Jr> not sure how it interacts with old-BSD's incompatibility
311 2013-09-23 06:10:25 <Luke-Jr> I guess if a Qt copyright holder warns us we can worry about it then (assuming LGPL 3)
312 2013-09-23 06:11:08 <Luke-Jr> we don't really need to worry about being unable to distribute binaries for old versions right now
313 2013-09-23 06:11:21 vub has joined
314 2013-09-23 06:13:03 <warren> Luke-Jr: I'm semi-wrong, the linux build dynamic links qt. mac build dynamic links everything and ships it along with the .app installed by the .dmg. Only the windows build static links everything, probably to avoid the hassle of .dll's.
315 2013-09-23 06:14:17 <Luke-Jr> warren: DLLs aren't really a hassle if you just ship them alongside <.<
316 2013-09-23 06:14:52 <warren> Luke-Jr: I started dev in May. I didn't design any of this.
317 2013-09-23 06:16:02 <Luke-Jr> I know :p
318 2013-09-23 06:16:42 <warren> grrr
319 2013-09-23 06:16:53 <warren> checking for exit in -lboost_system-mt-s... no
320 2013-09-23 06:16:53 <warren> checking for exit in -lboost_system-mt... no
321 2013-09-23 06:16:53 <warren> configure: error: Could not link against boost_system-mt !
322 2013-09-23 06:16:55 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
323 2013-09-23 06:17:00 <warren> I might need help from coryfields on this.
324 2013-09-23 06:18:19 <warren> checking for i686-w64-mingw32-pkg-config... no
325 2013-09-23 06:18:20 <warren> checking for pkg-config... /usr/bin/pkg-config
326 2013-09-23 06:18:20 <warren> configure: WARNING: using cross tools not prefixed with host triplet
327 2013-09-23 06:18:23 <warren> this is probably not good either
328 2013-09-23 06:18:48 <Luke-Jr> that one looks like a bug with our automake imo
329 2013-09-23 06:18:52 <Luke-Jr> pkg-config shouldn't need a prefix
330 2013-09-23 06:19:09 <Luke-Jr> nevermind, mine does so I guess it is normal
331 2013-09-23 06:19:14 <warren> well, it shouldn't use the standard pkg-config here
332 2013-09-23 06:19:27 <Luke-Jr> I was thinking it'd be the same binary with an env var
333 2013-09-23 06:19:59 <warren> I guess the pre-autotools bitcoin didn't use pkgconfig at all
334 2013-09-23 06:21:19 <Luke-Jr> nope
335 2013-09-23 06:22:08 <Luke-Jr> yay for supporting platforms without shared objects? XD
336 2013-09-23 06:23:06 paracyst has quit ()
337 2013-09-23 06:23:06 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: "Shared Objects" or "Shared Libraries" ?
338 2013-09-23 06:23:25 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: same thing.
339 2013-09-23 06:23:38 <Belxjander> not really
340 2013-09-23 06:23:56 <Luke-Jr> â¦
341 2013-09-23 06:24:35 <Luke-Jr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_object
342 2013-09-23 06:25:13 <Belxjander> Shared Objecfs and Shared Lbiraries are not always the same thing
343 2013-09-23 06:26:54 <Luke-Jr> in this context they are
344 2013-09-23 06:31:29 <Belxjander> okay...
345 2013-09-23 06:31:36 <Belxjander> POSIX?
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389 2013-09-23 08:01:35 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell TD pong, though usually better to avoid the ping/pong latency and just send what you meant to ask to begin with :)
390 2013-09-23 08:01:36 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
391 2013-09-23 08:01:55 awishformore has joined
392 2013-09-23 08:03:53 melvster has joined
393 2013-09-23 08:07:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|In what form and at what time does gribble tell things later?
394 2013-09-23 08:08:45 wallet43 has joined
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398 2013-09-23 08:20:34 <warren> if anyone is available and knows autotools, I'm very close to getting 12.04-based gitian working for gitiain-win32.yml
399 2013-09-23 08:20:52 <warren> https://github.com/wtogami/bitcoin/tree/gitianwtogami
400 2013-09-23 08:21:11 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
401 2013-09-23 08:21:35 wallet43 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
402 2013-09-23 08:21:40 <warren> https://togami.com/~warren/temp/build.log see where it fails in configure. It could be related to the pkg-config thing before it fails to find boost.
403 2013-09-23 08:21:55 <warren> PM me if you want the pre-built deps so you can reproduce this faster.
404 2013-09-23 08:26:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|warren: I don't know much about the tools, but if you want more testing on a different system, let me know
405 2013-09-23 08:27:45 ThomasV has joined
406 2013-09-23 08:27:58 <warren> michagogo|cloud: well, this is trying to fix win32 gitian in particular, so there are no other systems for this.
407 2013-09-23 08:28:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, different host systems
408 2013-09-23 08:28:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Though I guess that's not likely to make any significant differences)
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416 2013-09-23 08:48:31 <davout> is there a way in the stock client to fetch details about an arbitrary TX ?
417 2013-09-23 08:48:38 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
418 2013-09-23 08:48:46 <davout> last time I checked it was only possible to pull TXes related to your own wallet
419 2013-09-23 08:49:04 <davout> (fetch details as in JSON)
420 2013-09-23 08:49:26 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
421 2013-09-23 08:49:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|davout: like what you get from getrawtransaction txid 1?
422 2013-09-23 08:50:44 random_cat has joined
423 2013-09-23 08:51:33 <warren> davout: txindex=1 reindex=1 I think will allow that?
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429 2013-09-23 09:23:40 <davout> i'll try that, thanks!
430 2013-09-23 09:24:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|davout: Don't put that in your config file
431 2013-09-23 09:24:20 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
432 2013-09-23 09:24:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just run it with those command line arguments
433 2013-09-23 09:24:54 ericmuyser has joined
434 2013-09-23 09:25:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You only need to do it once, and while it won't hurt to have txindex in conf, reindex in conf will reindex every start
435 2013-09-23 09:25:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Which you probably don't want
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446 2013-09-23 09:38:12 <davout> michagogo|cloud: exactly what I needed, thanks a lot!
447 2013-09-23 09:39:03 UukGoblin has joined
448 2013-09-23 09:47:23 <warren> grrr
449 2013-09-23 09:47:33 <warren> I had to manually do: i686-w64-mingw32-ranlib /home/ubuntu/staging/lib/libboost*.a
450 2013-09-23 09:47:50 <warren> perhaps it was fine pre-autotools?
451 2013-09-23 09:48:54 zeiris has joined
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453 2013-09-23 09:49:58 <wumpus> warren: probably; the autotools build system is still a bit experimental
454 2013-09-23 09:50:11 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
455 2013-09-23 09:50:21 <wumpus> it's generally working fine, but there may be some rough edges still
456 2013-09-23 09:50:47 <wumpus> though I doubt autotools has anthing to do with building boost
457 2013-09-23 09:50:47 <warren> wumpus: i'm stuck on another error
458 2013-09-23 09:50:53 viperhr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
459 2013-09-23 09:50:57 <sipa> gavinandresen: even without win64 builds, i'm in favor of moving away from mingw32 in favor of mingw-w64 (as the latter uses a much more recent gcc, is better maintained, and also supports win32 builds)
460 2013-09-23 09:51:02 <sipa> warren: ^
461 2013-09-23 09:51:03 <wumpus> that ranlib line should be in the gitian script somewhere IIRC
462 2013-09-23 09:51:12 <wumpus> sipa: +1
463 2013-09-23 09:51:19 <warren> wumpus: yeah 'im adding it
464 2013-09-23 09:51:34 <warren> wumpus: please PM me your e-mail? I'll forward you all details.
465 2013-09-23 09:51:43 <wumpus> mingw-w64 is a really confusing name, as it can build for either 32 bit or 64 bit windows, but it's better than mingw32 in all aspects
466 2013-09-23 09:52:03 * warren adds ranlib
467 2013-09-23 09:52:48 <wumpus> warren: maybe it got removed accidentally, in older version it should be there IIRC
468 2013-09-23 09:53:19 <wumpus> the boost build was a bit strange, I never entirely understood why the manual ranlib line was neede
469 2013-09-23 09:53:34 <wumpus> but it worked so yeah...
470 2013-09-23 09:54:10 <warren> wumpus: sent mail, the branch is lacking ranlib line, adding now
471 2013-09-23 09:54:29 <michagogo> If there are 2 transactions, forming a double-spend of the same input, with outputs to 2 different addresses in the same bitcoin-qt wallet, how does the client handle that?
472 2013-09-23 09:59:33 <sipa> the first one gets into the mempool
473 2013-09-23 09:59:40 <sipa> the second is ignored
474 2013-09-23 10:00:34 <warren> falling asleep
475 2013-09-23 10:00:38 <michagogo> sipa: And if the second gets confirmed?
476 2013-09-23 10:00:46 <warren> wumpus: coryfields; falling asleep, will work more on this tomorrow
477 2013-09-23 10:01:16 <wumpus> ok, later
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506 2013-09-23 11:15:21 <xfers> Operating System Platform:«Windows 7» UpTime:«1 Week 15 Hours 13 Minutes 27 Seconds» Record UpTime:«1 Week 15 Hours 12 Minutes 17 Seconds» ÂI-n-v-i-s-i-o-nÂ
507 2013-09-23 11:16:13 saulimus has joined
508 2013-09-23 11:16:18 <xfers> Current System Configuration ÂI-n-v-i-s-i-o-nÂ
509 2013-09-23 11:16:18 <xfers> Operating System: Unknown Windows NT Kernel OS up for 1 weeks, 15 hours, 13 minutes 13 seconds
510 2013-09-23 11:16:18 <xfers> CPU/MEM: Intel P4 3.6GHz with Hyperthreading with Currently 559 of 2048MB in use which is 27.29%
511 2013-09-23 11:16:18 <xfers> Storage System: n/a Internet Connection: n/a
512 2013-09-23 11:16:18 <xfers> Display System: n/a using a n/a monitor at 1280 by 1024 32bit color 60Hz refresh
513 2013-09-23 11:18:44 * xfers is running ÂI-n-v-i-s-i-o-n 2.0 Build 3515 with Advanced File Serving features by cRYOa on mIRC v7.19 32bit obtained from:« http://www.i-n-v-i-s-i-o-n.com »
514 2013-09-23 11:19:38 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
515 2013-09-23 11:20:13 michagogo has quit (Quit: Brb, rebooting)
516 2013-09-23 11:21:32 wallet43 has joined
517 2013-09-23 11:22:16 mrzi has joined
518 2013-09-23 11:26:54 sacrelege has joined
519 2013-09-23 11:29:27 <K1773R> +b xfers
520 2013-09-23 11:30:08 <xfers> mind your business douche
521 2013-09-23 11:30:14 michagogo has joined
522 2013-09-23 11:30:43 CheckDavid has joined
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524 2013-09-23 11:30:43 CheckDavid has joined
525 2013-09-23 11:30:44 Julius129 has joined
526 2013-09-23 11:31:12 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: ban xfers
527 2013-09-23 11:31:26 Julius_129 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
528 2013-09-23 11:31:42 <xfers> what you just woke up kiddys
529 2013-09-23 11:32:00 cbc_ has left ()
530 2013-09-23 11:34:25 <xfers> im on a desktop even a kban is ineffective
531 2013-09-23 11:34:43 elgrecoFL has quit (Changing host)
532 2013-09-23 11:34:44 elgrecoFL has joined
533 2013-09-23 11:34:46 <michagogo> ...sure.
534 2013-09-23 11:35:13 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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537 2013-09-23 11:38:02 wei__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
538 2013-09-23 11:38:40 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
539 2013-09-23 11:40:01 melvster has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
540 2013-09-23 11:48:26 <xfers> buy my nick for 1 btc
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558 2013-09-23 12:32:56 <sipa> michagogo: then the second is confirmed, and the first us removed from the mempool
559 2013-09-23 12:34:18 <michagogo> sipa: And if a transaction is double-spent to a wallet address and to another address, and the transaction to the non-wallet address confirms, how long will it take for Bitcoin-Qt to forget about the transaction sent to it that will never confirm?
560 2013-09-23 12:34:50 <michagogo> (or will it hold on to that impossible-to-confirm transaction forever?)
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568 2013-09-23 12:44:42 <sipa> michagogo: the wallet never forgets
569 2013-09-23 12:44:59 <michagogo> Yikes.
570 2013-09-23 12:45:12 <sipa> yeah, that needs fixing
571 2013-09-23 12:45:22 <michagogo> Shouldn't there be some mechanism for getting rid of a wallet transaction that is known will never confirm?
572 2013-09-23 12:45:23 <sipa> it should be able to detect conflicts with the blockchain
573 2013-09-23 12:45:27 <michagogo> Indeed.
574 2013-09-23 12:45:47 <sipa> and even if not, a way to mark a transaction as 'deceased' or something after some time of non-confirming
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595 2013-09-23 13:10:57 <TD> sipa: for your block blacklisting change, did you ever get a chance to look at my last comment?
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597 2013-09-23 13:14:11 <sipa> TD: just commented
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601 2013-09-23 13:14:32 <sipa> i'll see how much is still relevant after the headers-first changes and add some comments
602 2013-09-23 13:15:24 <TD> i was wanting to use it to build a wallet re-org regression test for bitcoinj, but i can just merge it locally and do one by hand for now
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729 2013-09-23 15:52:45 <jgarzik> Random thought,
730 2013-09-23 15:52:54 <jgarzik> Does the payment protocol support payouts?
731 2013-09-23 15:53:08 <jgarzik> It would be nice to have an alternative channel for /receiving/ funds from a website
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736 2013-09-23 16:01:40 <TD> jgarzik: payouts?
737 2013-09-23 16:01:46 <TD> what do you mean?
738 2013-09-23 16:01:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: sure, just get yourself an SSL cert, and setup a webserver, and get everyone you want to pay you to add support for the payment protocol. :)
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741 2013-09-23 16:03:07 <TD> jgarzik: you'd generate an unsigned request for that, obviously ;)
742 2013-09-23 16:03:07 <TD> i'm thinking the right way to go is have an icon inside gui wallets that you can drag to wherever you want (e.g. an email compose editor to send via email, IM window for file transfer, USB stick for sneakernet, etc)
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744 2013-09-23 16:04:02 <michagogo> Does the bitcoind/bitcoin-qt debug window's createrawtransaction know about multisigs?
745 2013-09-23 16:04:35 <michagogo> (i.e. if you give it an output to a multisig in the first parameter, will it know what to do?)
746 2013-09-23 16:05:08 <jgarzik> TD, real world example: just-dice returning my investment to me. End users should not need to set up a web server for something like that.
747 2013-09-23 16:05:10 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, ^
748 2013-09-23 16:05:25 <TD> well both the protocol and implementation support refund addresses
749 2013-09-23 16:05:29 <TD> so .... that sounds like a refund to me?
750 2013-09-23 16:05:34 <jgarzik> with no payment
751 2013-09-23 16:06:19 <TD> so you're the one requesting payment in that case. you'd give just-dice a payment request of course. gavin's current code doesn't support doing that, but the whole reason the payment protocol is designed the way it is, is exactly so you _don't_ need a web server
752 2013-09-23 16:06:44 <TD> remember that the original proposals all required you to use a regular web server because they assumed "identity == web server name"
753 2013-09-23 16:07:01 <TD> i lobbied for the identity to be inside the payment request itself so you can attach them to emails, etc, and it's still fully functional
754 2013-09-23 16:07:39 <TD> for the just-dice case, again, you'd want drag/drop from the wallet to the web page
755 2013-09-23 16:07:46 <TD> identity isn't required for that use case.
756 2013-09-23 16:10:26 <TD> still, even if it was, there's no law that says CA's have to suck at issuing email certs
757 2013-09-23 16:10:26 <TD> ideally the entire UI could be "enter email address, copy/paste pubkey into web page, press go" and then you get your cert delivered in an attachment
758 2013-09-23 16:10:26 <TD> most CA's make it super complicated for no good reason. but there are probably a few CA's out there that don't have a sucky enrollment procedure.
759 2013-09-23 16:11:03 <jgarzik> Tangent: I want websites to support login via bitcoin ECDSA challenge -> signed response
760 2013-09-23 16:11:14 <TD> well, SSL already supports that. it's called client certificates.
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762 2013-09-23 16:11:20 <jgarzik> tired of passwords and NSA-compromised root CAs
763 2013-09-23 16:11:21 <TD> it's not using "bitcoin keys" i.e. secp256k1
764 2013-09-23 16:11:26 <TD> but it's basically the same idea
765 2013-09-23 16:11:52 <jgarzik> yes, SSL is questionable crap I don't trust at this point ;p
766 2013-09-23 16:11:58 <TD> it's actually a PITA because you end up having to make sure you copy your cert to any device that is going to log in, passwords are much more convenient. however, most devices/browsers do have decent support for it
767 2013-09-23 16:12:07 <TD> why? it's just a container for crypto with some algorithm negotiation
768 2013-09-23 16:12:15 <TD> SSL itself is fine. you aren't going to do a better job by yourself.
769 2013-09-23 16:13:10 <sipa> SSL is a mess, but it's a mess mostly because it's a hard problem
770 2013-09-23 16:13:12 <TD> it basically means you open up a file and agree to install it into the local keychain
771 2013-09-23 16:13:18 <TD> then browsers can use it when the server requests a challenge
772 2013-09-23 16:13:24 <TD> it can be entirely transparent in the best case
773 2013-09-23 16:13:25 <jgarzik> The CA infrastructure is problematic, implementations have had many security flaws, and it's likely others are lurking unknown. the zlib thing was a huge mistake.
774 2013-09-23 16:13:49 <TD> it's not really "problematic" except in the sense that it's the best the world has got, and it's not as good as people would like. certificate transparency is going to be a huge upgrade to that
775 2013-09-23 16:13:57 <TD> but it'll take a long time to roll out just because the CA infrastructure is huge
776 2013-09-23 16:15:03 <TD> at that point CA's will no longer need to be so trusted
777 2013-09-23 16:15:07 <TD> so, big improvement.
778 2013-09-23 16:15:32 <TD> as to the others, "crypto software is hard" - yes it is, which is why there's safety in numbers :)
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780 2013-09-23 16:17:10 * TD -> out for the evening
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807 2013-09-23 17:01:49 <muhoo> oh for fuck's sake. multibit will not let me enter an amount into the amount box to send coins.
808 2013-09-23 17:01:53 <muhoo> fucking java
809 2013-09-23 17:02:56 <muhoo> it's a text box, and it won't accept a mouse click to get a cursor. it's stuck at 0.525 BTC for some reason, i didn't enter it, and that's not the amount i want to send
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811 2013-09-23 17:03:17 <jgarzik> <tab> ?
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813 2013-09-23 17:06:22 <gmaxwell> muhoo: oh. I thought that was just me! I think I got it working by tabbing like jgarzik suggests.
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815 2013-09-23 17:07:43 <muhoo> tabbing ain't doing it either
816 2013-09-23 17:10:13 <muhoo> haha, i restarted multibit, it worked. once. then it stopped
817 2013-09-23 17:10:25 <muhoo> so, i had a cursor, for like a second. then nothing.
818 2013-09-23 17:10:33 * muhoo prepares to defenestrate multibit
819 2013-09-23 17:10:58 <muhoo> this is why web wallets are popular. they work.
820 2013-09-23 17:11:49 <pankkake> no, this is why java isn't popular. it doesn't work.
821 2013-09-23 17:11:52 <muhoo> just for fun, got a cursor, but paste dosn't work.
822 2013-09-23 17:12:03 <muhoo> java ui is just clown shoes.
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828 2013-09-23 17:21:14 <Luke-Jr> :|
829 2013-09-23 17:21:28 <kjj> jgarzik: regarding decentralized stock exchange, have you considered models other than the one you quote from March?
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831 2013-09-23 17:28:51 <phantomcircuit> tbh im not sure multibits problems have much to do with java
832 2013-09-23 17:29:04 <phantomcircuit> the main issue would seem to be that there's only one person working on it
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834 2013-09-23 17:32:24 <jgarzik> kjj, other models exist and are validÂ
but I think it is a healthy and resilient system to break up things into pieces, making them auditable and massively replicated
835 2013-09-23 17:32:46 <jgarzik> kjj, I was going to write a blog post, so your input is welcome
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838 2013-09-23 17:37:50 <warren> wumpus: ranlib was removed from gitian-win32.yml during the autotools commits, coryfields probably thought it was needed.
839 2013-09-23 17:38:04 <warren> wumpus: I'm stuck, need to wait for him
840 2013-09-23 17:38:05 <sipa> + didn't ?
841 2013-09-23 17:38:16 <warren> oops, yes.
842 2013-09-23 17:39:03 <warren> I haven't tried restoring that for loop
843 2013-09-23 17:39:09 <warren> maybe I should
844 2013-09-23 17:39:46 <wumpus> warren: yes, he probably thought so, can't you just restore it?
845 2013-09-23 17:39:56 <sipa> i'd try that
846 2013-09-23 17:40:04 <wumpus> he has the cut first think later approach :)
847 2013-09-23 17:40:34 <sipa> it's probably true that it shouldn't be in gitian descriptors directly, but rather done from within autotools if it's actually necessary
848 2013-09-23 17:40:43 <sipa> but it can always be moved there later
849 2013-09-23 17:41:19 <wumpus> why would it need to be done in autotools? I think the autotools should just assume that boost is installed properly, and not include strange gitian specific hacks
850 2013-09-23 17:41:38 <sipa> right, i may have too little context
851 2013-09-23 17:41:45 <sipa> but why is that ranlib call necessary?
852 2013-09-23 17:42:08 <wumpus> IIRC because somehow gitian doesn't install boost properly before packing it up
853 2013-09-23 17:42:17 <sipa> ah, ic
854 2013-09-23 17:42:24 <wumpus> it just packages up the compiled directory
855 2013-09-23 17:42:31 <sipa> maybe it should do an actual install then
856 2013-09-23 17:42:35 <sipa> and then pack up
857 2013-09-23 17:42:44 <wumpus> yeah that'd be better, just no one ever bothered
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860 2013-09-23 17:49:58 <kjj> jgarzik: the idea I've been kicking around for the last year is a namecoin-like chain for shares
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863 2013-09-23 17:53:19 <jgarzik> kjj, For many types of stocks or bonds, the issuer is the one that gives the issue its value. If no dividends are paid or operations performed, value rapidly goes to zero. Therefore, for the majority of cases, you necessarily have a de facto central authority for each issue.
864 2013-09-23 17:54:01 <jgarzik> kjj, One of the nice things about the pybond scheme -- attaching metadata to a normal bitcoin transaction -- is that the central authority's ability to inflate the [presumably] audited metadata is reduced
865 2013-09-23 17:54:17 <jgarzik> That was namecoin-like
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867 2013-09-23 17:54:31 <gmaxwell> There are plenty of things you could do to improve transparency in that model (e.g. having them maintain a public ledger that users copy)â but simply mixing in a blockchain reduces security rather than improving it.
868 2013-09-23 17:54:48 <kjj> why do I need the issuer's permission to transfer shares to someone else?
869 2013-09-23 17:54:55 <jgarzik> The main questions are: (a) where is the shareholder registry stored, and (b) how to enable third party -> third party transfers, without inflating the share count (== double spending)
870 2013-09-23 17:55:25 <jgarzik> kjj, you don't /need/ it per se, but you do need a mechanism to prevent share inflation
871 2013-09-23 17:55:45 <kjj> if the issuer has veto power over all transfers, the shares are not fungible
872 2013-09-23 17:56:05 <jgarzik> The issuer in most cases has de facto veto power anyway
873 2013-09-23 17:56:05 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, you still have the fundamental problem that a security is ultimately only worth what the underwriter will actually produce
874 2013-09-23 17:56:08 <gmaxwell> kjj: the issuer _always_ has veto power.
875 2013-09-23 17:56:12 <jgarzik> nod
876 2013-09-23 17:56:17 <gmaxwell> kjj: because they could just not honor those transfers.
877 2013-09-23 17:56:18 <phantomcircuit> which in the case of anonymously held securities is probably nothing
878 2013-09-23 17:56:24 <kjj> only globally, not with granularity
879 2013-09-23 17:56:24 <jgarzik> or not pay dividends
880 2013-09-23 17:56:35 <gmaxwell> kjj: with whatever granularity they like.
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882 2013-09-23 17:57:10 <jgarzik> you can certainly selectively withhold dividends
883 2013-09-23 17:57:21 <gmaxwell> or pay them to other people.
884 2013-09-23 17:57:28 <kjj> which would be regarded as a default
885 2013-09-23 17:57:36 <jgarzik> not if 99% still get paid
886 2013-09-23 17:57:49 <jgarzik> or perceive the withholding to be virtuous in some regard
887 2013-09-23 17:57:50 <kjj> even a single share that isn't paid is a default
888 2013-09-23 17:57:56 <gmaxwell> kjj: then you could also equally regard denying a trade as a default. They're equivalent.
889 2013-09-23 17:58:10 <gmaxwell> kjj: they can happily show who they paid instead.
890 2013-09-23 17:58:35 <kjj> how would you prove that a transfer was ignored?
891 2013-09-23 17:58:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i know that the primary reason people want decentralized securities is to avoid the exchange/clearinghouse/title company shutdown issue that happened with GLBSE and now with BTC-TC
892 2013-09-23 17:58:54 <kjj> you show your signed sales ticket, they say they never got it
893 2013-09-23 17:59:19 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, but that ignores the fundamental issue that those securities were largely only valuable when actively traded on such a site
894 2013-09-23 17:59:38 <kjj> the point I usually get down to is that we don't accept ANY of that bullshit in bitcoin, so why do we accept it for other systems?
895 2013-09-23 18:00:21 <phantomcircuit> kjj, the issue is more that even if you have a signed sales receipt, you cant really prove that it doesn't belong to someone else
896 2013-09-23 18:00:38 <phantomcircuit> even if the signed received contains a signed message from a private key you hold
897 2013-09-23 18:01:01 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, no, it doesn't ignore the issue, precisely the opposite: it creates an atmosphere/incentives where it is easier for another market to spring up. people will inevitably forum shop from there.
898 2013-09-23 18:01:02 <gmaxwell> kjj: because you can't actually remove it in "something" else that is predicated on the idea of a centeral issuer.
899 2013-09-23 18:01:09 <phantomcircuit> kjj, with bitcoin the bitcoins themselves are the thing of value
900 2013-09-23 18:01:26 <phantomcircuit> with a security the value is based on something else
901 2013-09-23 18:01:39 <gmaxwell> kjj: it's pretty easy to establish if they're ignoring an order or notâ no harder than establishing that they're mispaying a dividend.
902 2013-09-23 18:02:02 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i understand the idea, but my point is that most of the issued securities on those sites have a true market value of roughly zero
903 2013-09-23 18:02:09 <kjj> gmaxwell: it is in fact MUCH harder to prove
904 2013-09-23 18:02:17 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, a decentralized securities holding system would likely bear that out
905 2013-09-23 18:02:43 <phantomcircuit> example, even after GLBSE shutdown nefario made it possible for asset holders to prove their ownership
906 2013-09-23 18:02:44 <kjj> if the shares are controlled by a globally distributed system, the dividend payment can be matched automatically to the shares held
907 2013-09-23 18:02:48 <Cusipzzz> phantomcircuit: ++ most exist solely for the speculation and gambling aspect - remove the liquid marketplace and poof
908 2013-09-23 18:02:53 <gmaxwell> kjj: it's not. You can just use whatever jamming resistant channel you would have used in one in the other.
909 2013-09-23 18:02:54 <phantomcircuit> but most of the people who issued assets simply ignored it
910 2013-09-23 18:03:04 <phantomcircuit> and yelled as loudly as possible that he was stealing
911 2013-09-23 18:03:09 <phantomcircuit> to cover their own thefts
912 2013-09-23 18:03:35 <kjj> jamming resistant? I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing at all
913 2013-09-23 18:03:47 <gmaxwell> kjj: E.g. if the issuer doesn't voluntarily take the transfer you can do the transfer just as you would have done in your lame ass world spamming blockchain bullshit system, and then it's the same.
914 2013-09-23 18:03:49 <kjj> the problem is that if there is a central issuer, they can claim they never saw your order
915 2013-09-23 18:04:12 <kjj> ok, so your system requires that my system exist. good system
916 2013-09-23 18:04:29 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i think my point is that the lesson from bitcoin is that the technical and economic factors need to line up, with decentralized securities issued by ??? the economic incentive for them will always be to cheat
917 2013-09-23 18:04:36 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
918 2013-09-23 18:04:41 <gmaxwell> kjj: Don't be a dickwad, that isn't waht I'm saying.
919 2013-09-23 18:04:58 <kjj> I'm the dickwad? you may want to read your recent replies
920 2013-09-23 18:05:00 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, it depends on the issuer
921 2013-09-23 18:05:09 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, ASICMINER is an interesting example
922 2013-09-23 18:05:11 <gmaxwell> kjj: wtf?
923 2013-09-23 18:05:22 BTCOxygen has joined
924 2013-09-23 18:05:22 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
925 2013-09-23 18:05:55 <kjj> your lame ass totally centralized fully trusted bullshit system is useless if it requires a fallback to a trustless system. what am I missing?
926 2013-09-23 18:06:35 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, sure, but the point is that the technical details of how asset ownership was collected/traded/whatever was largely irrelevant except so far as to provide the appearance of a liquid marketplace
927 2013-09-23 18:07:01 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, to have that appearance more or less requires that the assets be held by the exchange
928 2013-09-23 18:07:41 <phantomcircuit> although i would be interested in a decentralized exchange system in which participants were required to prove ownership of the asset they were selling
929 2013-09-23 18:07:43 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
930 2013-09-23 18:07:57 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, yes, I agree there
931 2013-09-23 18:08:00 <gmaxwell> kjj: not at allâ I'm pointing out that at a minimum you can have a system which creates no blockchain load or bloat (and thus isn't subject to censorship by miners), and still can't be censored by the issuer so long as any jamming resistant communications channel actually exists at all.
932 2013-09-23 18:08:06 pecket has joined
933 2013-09-23 18:08:09 <phantomcircuit> im fairly certain a btc/ltc exchange is technically possible without a third party holding anything
934 2013-09-23 18:08:54 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, yes
935 2013-09-23 18:09:05 <kjj> gmaxwell: I'm not sure that is really possible. if the issuer of a share is responsible for publishing a list of all transactions or holdings, I'm not sure how you can force them to accept something they don't want to accept, other than by having humans ponder the situation
936 2013-09-23 18:09:12 <phantomcircuit> effectively have an order selling btc (make sure the format of the order definitely never looks like a bitcoin transaction :P ) and sign it with the private keys in question
937 2013-09-23 18:09:23 longcat has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
938 2013-09-23 18:09:35 <phantomcircuit> the hard part is the actual exchange though since who goes first, or maybe nobody even has to go first
939 2013-09-23 18:09:38 <jgarzik> All this back and forth nonwithstanding, I do think there is value in having a property registry (share registry) chain, kjj
940 2013-09-23 18:09:48 <phantomcircuit> (im sure someone has an idea how nobody has to go first)
941 2013-09-23 18:09:51 <jgarzik> But the issuer holds all the cards
942 2013-09-23 18:09:55 <jgarzik> in the end
943 2013-09-23 18:10:01 <kjj> gmaxwell: and my idea is for a second chain dedicated to share ownership. the only bloat in the currency chain would be the standard merged mining load
944 2013-09-23 18:10:18 <warren> jgarzik: an exodus address manually operated by someone? =)
945 2013-09-23 18:10:29 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, right and it's an interesting concept, but i suspect it would be a lot of effort for something that would be largely unused
946 2013-09-23 18:10:29 <gmaxwell> kjj: The issuer is _always_ responsible to abide by the rules. If they don't all bets are off. If you want to make sure that you can always catch them when they don't, you can always invoke whatever jamming resistant channel you _think_ you have only in the exceptional case that they are being dishonest in the very specific way that might be helped by that.
947 2013-09-23 18:10:38 debiantoruser has joined
948 2013-09-23 18:10:39 <phantomcircuit> (but maybe im misjudging the market..?)
949 2013-09-23 18:10:50 <kjj> jgarzik: the issuer holds some of the cards. having a fully decentralized system greatly reduces their options.
950 2013-09-23 18:11:24 <phantomcircuit> kjj, "what contract? what's a private key? WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE GET OFF MY LAWN"
951 2013-09-23 18:11:41 <jgarzik> kjj, you can prove they are cheating, but they still have control
952 2013-09-23 18:11:44 <gmaxwell> kjj: and then in your second chain, which hardly has any miners because who is interested in that? things are freely reorganized and all your shares get stolen, even when the issuer themself is not dishonest. This is a bad idea. The issuer must be honest or the shares are _worthless_, so now that you have a trusted point why make a system which is less secure?
953 2013-09-23 18:12:13 <kjj> gmaxwell: by that logic, bitcoin never took off either
954 2013-09-23 18:12:15 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
955 2013-09-23 18:12:40 longcat has joined
956 2013-09-23 18:13:04 <kjj> jgarzik: if they are not in charge of transactions with the shares they issued, they won't know who they are cheating if they don't pay all shares properly
957 2013-09-23 18:13:23 Sarah has joined
958 2013-09-23 18:13:28 <phantomcircuit> kjj, you're missing a keypoint, bitcoins are valuable by themselves, those securities are worthless without the issuer following the contract
959 2013-09-23 18:13:37 <gmaxwell> kjj: bitcoin has spent most of its life not terribly secure. And you predicate a system with far less interest in it would be secure? go look at all the altcoins that have been throughly exploited.
960 2013-09-23 18:13:41 <kjj> jgarzik: which means they effectively have zero control over who they pay, just if they pay or not
961 2013-09-23 18:13:43 bbrian has joined
962 2013-09-23 18:13:43 <phantomcircuit> kjj, otherwise you're just running a very complicated altcoin...
963 2013-09-23 18:13:46 Sarah is now known as Guest76247
964 2013-09-23 18:14:00 <gmaxwell> And in bitcoin the argument doesn't apply, there is no trusted party that you could reduce things to.
965 2013-09-23 18:14:15 <kjj> phantomcircuit: bitcoins have value because they are useful. you don't think this would be useful too?
966 2013-09-23 18:14:39 <gmaxwell> If bitcoin was closed source I would agree "why bother with the blockchain, just trust the closed source developer guy to sign the valid transactions".
967 2013-09-23 18:14:58 <kjj> gmaxwell: why do you assume it will be less popular than bitcoin? the last time I checked, currency was a wart on the face of the bond market
968 2013-09-23 18:15:33 <phantomcircuit> kjj, actually no i dont since i cant see it adding value beyond the issuer just giving out signed receipts with your name on it
969 2013-09-23 18:15:35 <kjj> if we assume that bitcoins are better money than money, why wouldn't these new things be better shares than shares?
970 2013-09-23 18:15:52 <phantomcircuit> especially since in almost all cases an issuer is allowed to issue infinitely more shares
971 2013-09-23 18:16:14 <kjj> phantomcircuit: issuance could be locked in up front, much like it is in bitcoin
972 2013-09-23 18:16:39 <jgarzik> kjj, Why would issuers prefer that over the more flexible approach?
973 2013-09-23 18:16:49 <gmaxwell> kjj: bitcoin a _different_ money, better is objectively false now. Go pay your rent in bitcoin. :P For money like goods we have a different set of problems, e.g. the scarcity is a fraud that largely doesn't exist for shares and can be audited away.
974 2013-09-23 18:16:49 <phantomcircuit> they wouldn't
975 2013-09-23 18:16:54 <kjj> even better, dilution could be voted by protocol, with the terms set in advance
976 2013-09-23 18:17:16 <jgarzik> investors might like that, but issuers will choose preferable, more flexible terms
977 2013-09-23 18:17:48 <kjj> jgarzik: neither side exists in a vacuum. do you think merchants pay 3% credit card fees because they like paying fees?
978 2013-09-23 18:18:51 <gmaxwell> kjj: again, what have you added by adding this huge, costly, globally visable shared fate system, which has ambigious (or at least unsettled) security properties? You don't gain security against a misbehaving issuer.
979 2013-09-23 18:19:37 <gmaxwell> At most you gain making some kinds of misbehavior more visible, but you can achieve that without using that system in the common case, and just using it to announce misbehavior.
980 2013-09-23 18:19:43 <kjj> gmaxwell: as I've explained several times already, you limit the mischeif that an issuer can perform
981 2013-09-23 18:20:01 <kjj> er, mischief. one of those
982 2013-09-23 18:20:47 <gmaxwell> And if you take its purpose as just announcing misbehavior you can adopt a radically different design that has better scaling properties and does a better job at actually acheving that goal. For example, you could have something which can never be reorged where any future state update your node accepts must include everything in your current state.
983 2013-09-23 18:21:05 <warren> wumpus: restoring it won't work, the boost-win32.yml appears to package a lot less than it used to, I'm looking at fixing it there now.
984 2013-09-23 18:22:49 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
985 2013-09-23 18:22:54 <kjj> gmaxwell: that isn't the only goal, just the most obvious practical benefit
986 2013-09-23 18:23:50 <kjj> the main goal is to provide a decentralized system for registering ownership of fractions of things
987 2013-09-23 18:23:56 reneg has joined
988 2013-09-23 18:24:31 <gmaxwell> kjj: except you failed in that goal when the thing is a centeralized thing. :P
989 2013-09-23 18:25:05 coryfields has left ()
990 2013-09-23 18:25:06 <kjj> gmaxwell: only if you are using a very non-standard meaning of one of your words
991 2013-09-23 18:25:23 cfields has joined
992 2013-09-23 18:25:25 <warren> wumpus: yeah, the old boost-win32*.zip stored all the .o files, then relied upon gitian-win32.yml to use ranlib to stuff it into .a files.
993 2013-09-23 18:25:32 <cfields> warren: hmm, yes ranlib is needed
994 2013-09-23 18:25:33 <kjj> for example, if "failed" means "succeeded", then you would be right
995 2013-09-23 18:26:08 <cfields> ranlib doesn't create .a files, it adds an index inside already-created ones
996 2013-09-23 18:26:10 <warren> cfields: i'll insert a ranlib loop in boost-win32.yml similar to the old gitian-win32.yml
997 2013-09-23 18:26:16 <warren> hm
998 2013-09-23 18:26:19 <cfields> no, that's a nasty hack
999 2013-09-23 18:26:33 <cfields> installing it should be enough. what's the problem?
1000 2013-09-23 18:26:44 <warren> cfields: the problem was sent to you via email
1001 2013-09-23 18:27:38 <cfields> multiple definition of `__tls_used'
1002 2013-09-23 18:27:39 <cfields> that one?
1003 2013-09-23 18:29:29 <warren> cfields: the previous one
1004 2013-09-23 18:29:54 <warren> cfields: the second mail was after configure succeeded after I blindly ranlib on every .a
1005 2013-09-23 18:30:20 aceat64 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1006 2013-09-23 18:30:23 <cfields> warren: please point me to a log somewhere, i don't know what i'm supposed to be looking at
1007 2013-09-23 18:30:44 <warren> cfields: https://togami.com/~warren/temp/build.log
1008 2013-09-23 18:31:03 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1009 2013-09-23 18:31:10 paracyst has joined
1010 2013-09-23 18:31:21 <warren> cfields: https://github.com/wtogami/bitcoin/tree/gitianwin32 gbuild of this gitian-win32.yml results in that build.log
1011 2013-09-23 18:31:37 <cfields> could you please post the config.log to go with it?
1012 2013-09-23 18:32:21 <warren> hmm, know how to get arbitrary files out of the gitian VM?
1013 2013-09-23 18:33:09 <cfields> on-target cat foo.txt
1014 2013-09-23 18:34:05 <warren> building again to get the log
1015 2013-09-23 18:38:32 <warren> cfields: https://togami.com/~warren/temp/config.log
1016 2013-09-23 18:40:34 knotwork has joined
1017 2013-09-23 18:40:54 <cfields> mmm, can i see the boost build output as well?
1018 2013-09-23 18:41:24 <warren> grr, doing that again now
1019 2013-09-23 18:41:28 <warren> cfields: var/build.log ?
1020 2013-09-23 18:41:42 <cfields> yea, for boost
1021 2013-09-23 18:41:54 <warren> building
1022 2013-09-23 18:41:55 <cfields> my guess is that boost finds and incompatible ranlib and refuses to run it on the .a
1023 2013-09-23 18:42:09 <cfields> *finds an
1024 2013-09-23 18:42:59 Guest76247 has quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds)
1025 2013-09-23 18:44:22 <cfields> yep
1026 2013-09-23 18:44:25 <cfields> warren: https://github.com/wtogami/bitcoin/commit/da42ae9e8b3d575ded653c23a543a421d3f6cd78#L0R24
1027 2013-09-23 18:45:25 <cfields> hmm nm, that's valid
1028 2013-09-23 18:46:16 <cfields> oh, you don't have mingw binutils installed for the boost build, though
1029 2013-09-23 18:46:33 <warren> isn't that only a compat symlink package?
1030 2013-09-23 18:46:40 <warren> I tried installing it but it doens't contain anything
1031 2013-09-23 18:47:01 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1032 2013-09-23 18:50:00 <cfields> http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/amd64/binutils-mingw-w64-i686/filelist
1033 2013-09-23 18:51:03 <warren> cfields: /usr/bin/i686-w64-mingw32-ranlib exists in the boost build environment
1034 2013-09-23 18:51:57 <cfields> ok. will wait for log
1035 2013-09-23 18:52:33 _ingsoc_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
1036 2013-09-23 18:52:41 * michagogo wishes he knew more about the inner workings of software building
1037 2013-09-23 18:53:00 <michagogo> Basically, it's (mostly) a black box to me :-/
1038 2013-09-23 18:53:51 <cfields> michagogo: dev on an obscure arch for a while and you'll be forced to figure it all out
1039 2013-09-23 18:53:57 <michagogo> My skills are limited to "run the command (make or whatever), google or apt-get if anything appears to be missing"
1040 2013-09-23 18:54:13 Krellan_ has joined
1041 2013-09-23 18:54:49 <warren> cfields: want an alpha? =)
1042 2013-09-23 18:55:10 <cfields> warren: heh, just a log :)
1043 2013-09-23 18:55:13 <warren> cfields: https://togami.com/~warren/temp/boost-build.log
1044 2013-09-23 18:55:17 <cfields> i don't have a win32 install
1045 2013-09-23 18:55:32 <michagogo> cfields: I don't really dev much -- I don't really know much coding, and what I do know is mostly interpreted and not compiled
1046 2013-09-23 18:59:05 nirgle has joined
1047 2013-09-23 19:00:01 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1048 2013-09-23 19:00:48 <warren> cfields: do you have a gitian capable machine?
1049 2013-09-23 19:01:16 wallet43 has joined
1050 2013-09-23 19:01:48 <cfields> warren: yea, building now
1051 2013-09-23 19:03:43 Pengoo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1052 2013-09-23 19:05:38 <Luke-Jr> cfields: is your Mac gitian stuff published anywhere?
1053 2013-09-23 19:06:33 <cfields> Luke-Jr: no, it was done by hand. i put it on pause until i can determine if it's worth the time or not
1054 2013-09-23 19:10:31 jtimon has joined
1055 2013-09-23 19:10:35 robocoin has joined
1056 2013-09-23 19:12:45 <michagogo> Question: would a gitian build in LXC work and be deterministic?
1057 2013-09-23 19:13:47 robocoin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1058 2013-09-23 19:14:12 <michagogo> s/in LXC/using LXC and not KVM/
1059 2013-09-23 19:14:16 <Luke-Jr> should
1060 2013-09-23 19:14:39 aceat64 has joined
1061 2013-09-23 19:14:45 <michagogo> Also: if LXC is not a full virtualization, would that mean that the host needs to be running lucid?
1062 2013-09-23 19:15:57 <Ry4an> michagogo: LXC containers dont' have to match the distro of the host, but the host does have to be a relatively recent kernel
1063 2013-09-23 19:16:07 <michagogo> Hmm, okay
1064 2013-09-23 19:16:16 Anduck has joined
1065 2013-09-23 19:16:16 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
1066 2013-09-23 19:16:16 Anduck has joined
1067 2013-09-23 19:17:06 <michagogo> I was starting to look into a way to get gitian to work on Windows, but then stumbled upon a reference to LXC, and saw that it doesn't need hardware virtualization
1068 2013-09-23 19:17:13 <michagogo> Which means that I could run it in a VM
1069 2013-09-23 19:18:07 <Ry4an> we run 12.04 for our servers, but had to make the hosts 12.10 to please lxc/docker, so we host 12.04 in 12.10 now.
1070 2013-09-23 19:18:20 <Ry4an> very impressed w/ it so far though, fwiw
1071 2013-09-23 19:19:04 <DiabloD3> michagogo: docker isnt an virtual machine
1072 2013-09-23 19:19:07 <DiabloD3> its a container
1073 2013-09-23 19:19:14 <michagogo> docker?
1074 2013-09-23 19:19:27 <DiabloD3> docker wraps lxc
1075 2013-09-23 19:19:39 dlb76 has joined
1076 2013-09-23 19:19:52 <DiabloD3> docker isnt virtualization at all
1077 2013-09-23 19:19:59 <DiabloD3> its identical in use to bsd jails and solaris containers
1078 2013-09-23 19:20:03 <michagogo> Anyway, if LXC hosts can be different from what runs in the container, that's nice
1079 2013-09-23 19:20:09 <DiabloD3> single kernel, namespaced userlands
1080 2013-09-23 19:20:17 <michagogo> because it means I can use my existing raring VM
1081 2013-09-23 19:20:20 <DiabloD3> michagogo: no, because thats a virtual machine
1082 2013-09-23 19:20:28 <michagogo> DiabloD3: Oh
1083 2013-09-23 19:20:31 <DiabloD3> containers mean you have _one_ OS
1084 2013-09-23 19:20:47 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1085 2013-09-23 19:20:48 <michagogo> So to gitian-build bitcoin, I'd need to install a VM running lucid?
1086 2013-09-23 19:20:58 <DiabloD3> no
1087 2013-09-23 19:21:09 <DiabloD3> you can do it with an ubuntu image in docker fine
1088 2013-09-23 19:21:20 <DiabloD3> gitian wouldnt care about the kernel
1089 2013-09-23 19:21:27 <DiabloD3> but you could also do this in a standard jail too
1090 2013-09-23 19:21:30 <warren> brb
1091 2013-09-23 19:26:05 <cfields> warren: as i suspected, boost is using the wrong ranlib
1092 2013-09-23 19:26:23 <sipa> bad bad boost
1093 2013-09-23 19:26:44 <cfields> warren: <ranlib>i686-w64-mingw32-ranlib
1094 2013-09-23 19:26:45 <cfields> that fixes
1095 2013-09-23 19:26:51 <michagogo> What version of 10.04 does gitian use?
1096 2013-09-23 19:26:54 <warren> cfields: thanks
1097 2013-09-23 19:27:01 <michagogo> 10.04, or 10.04.something?
1098 2013-09-23 19:27:08 Anduck has joined
1099 2013-09-23 19:27:11 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
1100 2013-09-23 19:27:11 Anduck has joined
1101 2013-09-23 19:27:13 <sipa> latest, i assume
1102 2013-09-23 19:27:20 sserrano44 has joined
1103 2013-09-23 19:27:26 <michagogo> 10.04.4?
1104 2013-09-23 19:29:19 <warren> cfields: does this boost build have hardening flags?
1105 2013-09-23 19:29:33 <warren> we weren't able to use it before
1106 2013-09-23 19:29:50 <cfields> warren: boost build imo should pretty much be left alone
1107 2013-09-23 19:32:05 <cfields> if you enable verbose building, you'll see that they enable stuff on their own. not for us mere mortals to be second-guessing
1108 2013-09-23 19:32:09 <cfields> my opinion, anyway
1109 2013-09-23 19:33:14 gavinandresen has joined
1110 2013-09-23 19:34:17 <cfields> warren: also fyi, you can remove lots of the ar/ranlib hacks if you're bumping up to a more recent toolchain. deterministic options were added/fixed there.
1111 2013-09-23 19:34:52 <sipa> cfields: is 12.04 sufficient for "more recent toolchain" ?
1112 2013-09-23 19:35:11 <cfields> sipa: yea, should be
1113 2013-09-23 19:35:34 <sipa> i think for 0.9 we could upgrade all things gitian to 12.04
1114 2013-09-23 19:36:08 <sipa> only reason not to is 1) some testing overhead to see whether everything still works and 2) dropping support for pre-Precise linux systems
1115 2013-09-23 19:36:26 saulimus has joined
1116 2013-09-23 19:37:56 <cfields> sipa: why would that mean dropping support?
1117 2013-09-23 19:37:57 chmod755 has joined
1118 2013-09-23 19:38:21 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1119 2013-09-23 19:38:31 <sipa> cfields: i suppose binaries built on 12.04 may rely on libc features or other libraries that don't exist on 10.04-era systems
1120 2013-09-23 19:38:46 Coincidental has joined
1121 2013-09-23 19:38:54 <sipa> or is everything statically linked?
1122 2013-09-23 19:39:08 <wumpus> qt is not statically linked on linux afaik
1123 2013-09-23 19:39:17 <sipa> (i haven't touched precompiled binaries for a while)
1124 2013-09-23 19:39:19 <wumpus> and glibc certainly not
1125 2013-09-23 19:39:52 <cfields> yikes, i didn't realize lucid's glibc was so old
1126 2013-09-23 19:39:57 <cfields> wumpus: qt is, libc isn't
1127 2013-09-23 19:39:59 <wumpus> and statically linking glibc is very much discouraged
1128 2013-09-23 19:40:42 <warren> static linking glibc might actually use LESS memory on fedora due to whatever bug exists
1129 2013-09-23 19:40:49 <wumpus> it removed the buffer zone between user space and the kernel
1130 2013-09-23 19:40:52 * warren waits for gmaxwell to yell
1131 2013-09-23 19:41:08 <cfields> warren: huh?
1132 2013-09-23 19:41:25 <warren> cfields: there's some kind of bug where gitian binaries on fedora use as much as 200MB more RAM
1133 2013-09-23 19:41:38 <warren> maybe 300MB more ram
1134 2013-09-23 19:41:41 <warren> it gets bad
1135 2013-09-23 19:41:45 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1136 2013-09-23 19:41:49 <wumpus> ie, system call interface is suddenly fixed
1137 2013-09-23 19:42:34 <wumpus> warren: maybe that's solved too when building on 12.04?
1138 2013-09-23 19:43:05 <warren> wumpus: haven't tried upgrading the gitian linux because we don't want to drop older linux distros?
1139 2013-09-23 19:43:23 <wumpus> I think the single set of binaries approach is broken for linux anyway, we really need per-distribution packages
1140 2013-09-23 19:43:27 <sipa> meh, 10.04 desktop isn't supported anymore anyway
1141 2013-09-23 19:43:32 <wumpus> (which we have for ubuntu of course)
1142 2013-09-23 19:44:08 <wumpus> sipa: yeah...
1143 2013-09-23 19:44:09 <warren> gitian binary aleady doesn't work on RHEL5. works on RHEL6. dunno if 12.04 giitan will break RHEL6.
1144 2013-09-23 19:44:22 <warren> RHEL6 still has 200 years of support remaining
1145 2013-09-23 19:44:53 <sipa> that may be an interesting consideration
1146 2013-09-23 19:45:02 <wumpus> I have pity for the people that will still be supporting the same bugs in 200 years :)
1147 2013-09-23 19:45:09 <sipa> that binary isn't for ubuntu client systems on;y
1148 2013-09-23 19:45:18 <gmaxwell> Esp a consideration since you can't easily build bitcoin there.
1149 2013-09-23 19:45:37 <warren> make secp256k1 standard and you can =)
1150 2013-09-23 19:45:39 <warren> brb
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1153 2013-09-23 19:48:02 <jgarzik> yah, let's add libsecp256k1 to the repo similar to leveldb
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1155 2013-09-23 19:48:07 <jgarzik> default it to off, for now
1156 2013-09-23 19:48:14 <jgarzik> but get it into the tree and building as an option
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1160 2013-09-23 19:48:47 <warren> jgarzik: +1
1161 2013-09-23 19:48:47 <sipa> jgarzik: i have a branch that integrates libsecp256k1 into master
1162 2013-09-23 19:49:15 <sipa> i can pullreq it, but i hoped to work on tests more before doing that
1163 2013-09-23 19:49:19 <cfields> sipa: mind linking?
1164 2013-09-23 19:49:31 <sipa> cfields: hmm?
1165 2013-09-23 19:49:43 <warren> sipa: I still need to rebase all my gitian stuff onto your libsecp256k1 branch
1166 2013-09-23 19:49:55 <sipa> warren: yes, please :)
1167 2013-09-23 19:50:07 <cfields> sipa: can you link the branch? If it's headed into master, i'd like to have a look at the build side of things
1168 2013-09-23 19:50:16 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
1169 2013-09-23 19:50:24 <michagogo> cfields: Guessing https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/secp256k1
1170 2013-09-23 19:50:31 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/secp256k1
1171 2013-09-23 19:50:32 <sipa> indeed
1172 2013-09-23 19:50:39 <warren> sipa: although if cfields is doing that, I'll wait ...
1173 2013-09-23 19:50:44 <cfields> you kept saying it was going to be a while, so i pushed that off my stack :)
1174 2013-09-23 19:51:04 <warren> cfields: secp256k1 needs auditing and testing ...
1175 2013-09-23 19:51:19 <sipa> cfields: i don't want to be responsible for wallet theft or chain forks because of my self-implemented crypto
1176 2013-09-23 19:51:53 <cfields> it's intended to be optional and defaulted off to start, correct?
1177 2013-09-23 19:52:09 <sipa> i'm sure people will use it nonetheless :)
1178 2013-09-23 19:52:12 <sipa> (i would...)
1179 2013-09-23 19:52:30 <warren> Litecoin has two builds, one standard, one with secp256k1
1180 2013-09-23 19:52:31 darkee has joined
1181 2013-09-23 19:52:45 <warren> we don't recommend people use the latter for mining or production
1182 2013-09-23 19:53:10 <cfields> sipa: nice job on that, it really doesn't need much other than making it optional
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1186 2013-09-23 19:53:48 <sipa> cfields: anyway, opinions about what is required for merging differ maybe, and i'm conservative i guess
1187 2013-09-23 19:54:09 <sipa> cfields: but getting a decent build system is welcome nonetheless :)
1188 2013-09-23 19:54:20 <cfields> sipa: oh, i can't speak for the implementation in the slightest. i only meant from builder's perspective
1189 2013-09-23 19:54:41 <sipa> it's just -DUSE_SECP256K1
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1192 2013-09-23 19:55:11 <sipa> the key.cpp implementation should probably just be split in two files, rather than something riddled with #ifdef's
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1194 2013-09-23 19:55:36 <cfields> sipa: i can autotools'ify it now if you'd like, looks like it shouldn't take too long.
1195 2013-09-23 19:56:00 <sipa> cfields: that would be nice :)
1196 2013-09-23 19:56:07 <cfields> ok, on it
1197 2013-09-23 19:56:22 <sipa> i guess the current configure script pretty much follows the logic already
1198 2013-09-23 19:56:32 <sipa> but you'd do it with macro's instead of hardcoded tests
1199 2013-09-23 19:56:43 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately libsecp256k1 has had fairly little review. It's also a lot of code, with multiple parallel implementations. There are relatively few people who are even qualified to review it. :(
1200 2013-09-23 19:57:10 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1202 2013-09-23 19:57:29 <sipa> some implementations can probably be thrown away
1203 2013-09-23 19:57:30 <michagogo> Hmm... where does gitian-builder/bin/make-base-vm get the OS from?
1204 2013-09-23 19:58:15 <sipa> cfields: the libsecp256k1 repo itself (rather than the bitcoin integration) is in sipa/secp256k1; so if you'd change the build system, send pullreqs there :)
1205 2013-09-23 19:59:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, i should do something about that, and talk to people
1206 2013-09-23 19:59:17 <sipa> but i haven't had the time to work on it myself either
1207 2013-09-23 20:02:04 <sipa> gmaxwell, cfields: perhaps it makes sense to only consider a subset of the number/field implementations "stable", and require a --with-experimental-code to enable those
1208 2013-09-23 20:02:31 <sipa> and prevent passing that flag when building bitcoin
1209 2013-09-23 20:02:49 <sipa> then again... right now they're really all experimental
1210 2013-09-23 20:02:53 <michagogo> Does anyone know where the OS comes from when using gitian-builder/bin/make-base-vm?
1211 2013-09-23 20:03:10 <sipa> michagogo: ubuntu, i guess
1212 2013-09-23 20:03:21 <sipa> we should know that, actually
1213 2013-09-23 20:03:22 <michagogo> I mean, where the source is defined
1214 2013-09-23 20:03:31 <sipa> ?
1215 2013-09-23 20:03:41 <sipa> i think it uses vmbuilder
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1218 2013-09-23 20:06:24 <michagogo> Also, something I noticed
1219 2013-09-23 20:06:49 <michagogo> release-process.md says "from the directory containing bitcoin source, gitian.sigs and gitian-builder" or something to that effect
1220 2013-09-23 20:07:12 <michagogo> But unless I misunderstand, the bitcoin source isn't needed at all, because gitian fetches it itself
1221 2013-09-23 20:07:19 <michagogo> You only need the 2 descriptor files.
1222 2013-09-23 20:07:39 <sipa> that's correct i think
1223 2013-09-23 20:07:54 <sipa> though i use a wrapper script around gitian that gets the source from a local directory
1224 2013-09-23 20:08:02 mikalv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1225 2013-09-23 20:08:07 <michagogo> sipa: Hmm?
1226 2013-09-23 20:08:28 <sipa> i often want to build from a local modified repository
1227 2013-09-23 20:08:48 <sipa> and modifying the descriptor files to pull stuff from another repo is a pain
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1229 2013-09-23 20:09:01 <sipa> i just want to say "use that git commit, from that directory" when building
1230 2013-09-23 20:09:12 <michagogo> Ah
1231 2013-09-23 20:09:21 <sipa> hardcoding the repository in the descriptor files seems weird to me
1232 2013-09-23 20:09:25 <michagogo> So does the script modify the descriptor file for you?
1233 2013-09-23 20:09:38 <sipa> no, i use an undocumented trick in gitian
1234 2013-09-23 20:09:50 <sipa> namely creating the directory it fetches things into myself before calling it
1235 2013-09-23 20:10:40 <michagogo> Interesting.
1236 2013-09-23 20:10:51 <michagogo> BTW, how do you ask Ubuntu if it's 32 or 64 bit?
1237 2013-09-23 20:11:18 wei_ has joined
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1239 2013-09-23 20:12:13 <sipa> uname -m
1240 2013-09-23 20:13:14 <michagogo> i686?
1241 2013-09-23 20:13:16 <michagogo> Is that 32-bit?
1242 2013-09-23 20:13:22 <sipa> yes
1243 2013-09-23 20:13:24 <michagogo> And: would that be the cause for http://paste.ubuntu.com/6147155/ ?
1244 2013-09-23 20:14:00 <michagogo> If so: damn, looks like I do need to install a new VM after all
1245 2013-09-23 20:14:15 <sipa> is your host system 32-bit?
1246 2013-09-23 20:14:24 coius has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1247 2013-09-23 20:14:52 <michagogo> I'm running Windows 7 64-bit
1248 2013-09-23 20:15:05 <sipa> and inside of that
1249 2013-09-23 20:15:05 <sipa> ?
1250 2013-09-23 20:15:24 <michagogo> Running Ubuntu in virtualbox, and that's what that paste is from
1251 2013-09-23 20:15:29 <michagogo> Ubuntu raring, i686
1252 2013-09-23 20:15:38 <sipa> ok, so your gitian host is 32-bit
1253 2013-09-23 20:15:41 <michagogo> right
1254 2013-09-23 20:15:49 <sipa> you can use lxc to go from 32-bit host to 64-bit guest
1255 2013-09-23 20:15:53 <michagogo> Does it need to be 64, or was that error caused by something else?
1256 2013-09-23 20:15:57 <sipa> as it uses the same kernel
1257 2013-09-23 20:16:04 <michagogo> Okay...
1258 2013-09-23 20:16:09 <sipa> *can't
1259 2013-09-23 20:16:10 * michagogo wonders what the problem is, then
1260 2013-09-23 20:16:12 <michagogo> Ah
1261 2013-09-23 20:16:16 wei_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1262 2013-09-23 20:16:17 <michagogo> That'd do it :-P
1263 2013-09-23 20:16:31 * michagogo checks if he has the raring amd64 iso
1264 2013-09-23 20:16:38 <sipa> yeah, you need to run a 64-bit ubuntu in the virtualbox
1265 2013-09-23 20:16:46 <michagogo> Damn.
1266 2013-09-23 20:16:48 <sipa> and then lxc inside that shouldn't be a problem
1267 2013-09-23 20:16:57 <michagogo> (I'm assuming there's no way to upgrade from 32 to 64, right?)
1268 2013-09-23 20:17:08 <sipa> unsure
1269 2013-09-23 20:17:11 <sipa> maybe there is
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1271 2013-09-23 20:19:11 <cfields> sipa: sorry, phone
1272 2013-09-23 20:19:41 <michagogo> Looks like it's ~possible, but not easy or supported
1273 2013-09-23 20:21:58 <cfields> sipa: mind quickly going over what options should be available? maybe quick PM discussion?
1274 2013-09-23 20:23:46 <michagogo> At least I already have the ISO -- and it'll be worth it to be able to gbuild without having to get my external HD and reboot into Ubuntu
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1293 2013-09-23 20:48:19 <sipa> gmaxwell: you remember what kind of changes you needed to make to libsecp256k1 to make it c89?
1294 2013-09-23 20:48:21 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: at least let me deliver the punchline.
1295 2013-09-23 20:49:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: that partial patch should still be there. The bulk of the changes are just moving declarations before use.
1296 2013-09-23 20:49:18 <gmaxwell> There are a few minor protype changes.
1297 2013-09-23 20:49:37 <Luke-Jr> is there a reason for C89 compat anymore?
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1302 2013-09-23 20:57:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yes, embedded systems which only have C89 compilers.
1303 2013-09-23 20:58:30 <gmaxwell> At least for something as low level as libsecpk256k1, and at least where the compatiblity is "costless"
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1329 2013-09-23 21:34:45 <gmaxwell> Just a notice to everyone here. The pruning of OP_RETURN outputs has been merged, and as a result you cannot expect gettxoutsetinfo hashes to agree between two nodes anymore unless both have been reindexed after this change.
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1334 2013-09-23 21:46:38 <michagogo> If I understand https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2791/files#L1R551 correctly, the only thing that currently passes IsUnspendable() is a script that begins with OP_RETURN?
1335 2013-09-23 21:46:47 <sipa> correct
1336 2013-09-23 21:47:36 * michagogo wonders if there are any utxos that pay to the scripthash of OP_RETURN
1337 2013-09-23 21:47:46 <gmaxwell> michagogo: if the structure of the UTXO set is ever made normative it would be important that the unspendablity rules not be complicated... as they'd be bit-exact normative too.
1338 2013-09-23 21:48:10 MobGod_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1340 2013-09-23 21:48:51 * michagogo also wonders what percentage of provably unspendable utxos don't start with op_return
1341 2013-09-23 21:48:56 <gmaxwell> michagogo: 37gsHDLSG5TJvApGfiUZDaDo9mSr6rjLv6 ... BC.i says no.
1342 2013-09-23 21:49:06 <gmaxwell> michagogo: very very few.
1343 2013-09-23 21:49:09 jav__ has joined
1344 2013-09-23 21:49:16 <michagogo> That's what I figured.
1345 2013-09-23 21:49:29 <gmaxwell> michagogo: there are very few provably unspendable ones at all.
1346 2013-09-23 21:49:39 * michagogo updates his fork
1347 2013-09-23 21:49:47 <longcat> im confused
1348 2013-09-23 21:49:58 <gmaxwell> I hand checked all of the irregular txouts lately. Obviously I can't check p2sh ones (but there are very few of those anyways)
1349 2013-09-23 21:50:44 agnostic98 has joined
1350 2013-09-23 21:51:20 <gmaxwell> michagogo: basically the only ones I found other than op_return were the broken p2pool "script" ones (e.g. p2pool was paying a scriptpubkey of "script") and the mtgox payments to a hash160 of 0x00 :)
1351 2013-09-23 21:51:38 <michagogo> "script"?
1352 2013-09-23 21:51:50 <michagogo> wow.
1353 2013-09-23 21:51:50 <gmaxwell> as it the litteral bytes.
1354 2013-09-23 21:51:59 <gmaxwell> which happens to be unspendable.
1355 2013-09-23 21:52:40 <michagogo> Would it be too complicated to make IsUnspendable return true on scripts with no opcodes?
1356 2013-09-23 21:53:07 <gmaxwell> uh. ?! thats spendable.
1357 2013-09-23 21:53:17 <gmaxwell> you hardfork maker you
1358 2013-09-23 21:53:19 <michagogo> It is?
1359 2013-09-23 21:53:22 <michagogo> How
1360 2013-09-23 21:53:35 ticean_ has joined
1361 2013-09-23 21:53:47 <michagogo> And why is "script" unspendable?
1362 2013-09-23 21:54:17 <gmaxwell> 0x51 spends an empty scriptpubkey fine.
1363 2013-09-23 21:54:55 <gmaxwell> michagogo: because it has unclosed IFs or something? I forget which reason kills it first.
1364 2013-09-23 21:54:57 <sipa> michagogo: if the output script is empty, then it means it leaves the stack left behind by the input script untouched
1365 2013-09-23 21:55:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: it would only be a softfork, btw
1366 2013-09-23 21:55:31 <michagogo> gmaxwell: I didn't mean empty, I meant "has only non-opcode data"
1367 2013-09-23 21:55:52 <sipa> michagogo: unless it ends with an OP_0 push, it's always spendable
1368 2013-09-23 21:55:55 <sipa> by any input
1369 2013-09-23 21:56:00 <michagogo> Ah, I see
1370 2013-09-23 21:56:47 ticean has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1371 2013-09-23 21:56:48 <michagogo> Oh, it just needs to complete with non-zero
1372 2013-09-23 21:58:57 <michagogo> Okay, my raring 64-bit vm is almost ready
1373 2013-09-23 21:59:11 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1374 2013-09-23 21:59:30 <michagogo> Installed, got git and cloned gitian-builder, bitcoin, and gitian.sigs
1375 2013-09-23 21:59:32 <sipa> it needs to complete entirely, with at least one stack element remaining, the topmost of which must be nonzero
1376 2013-09-23 21:59:54 <michagogo> Now waiting for updated to finish
1377 2013-09-23 22:00:22 <michagogo> sipa: I was more saying "it's nonzero that passes that check, not a specific "true" value"
1378 2013-09-23 22:00:29 <sipa> yeah
1379 2013-09-23 22:01:54 <michagogo> Anyway, once Software Updater finishes, I can install guest additions + dependencies for gitian
1380 2013-09-23 22:02:07 <michagogo> and finally get gitian working under LXC
1381 2013-09-23 22:02:10 <sipa> \o/
1382 2013-09-23 22:02:59 <michagogo> I'm wondering if there's a way I can use the 10.04 ISOs I have downloaded
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1405 2013-09-23 22:41:33 <michagogo> Hmm, https://bitcoinfoundation.org/about/board hasn't been updated yet
1406 2013-09-23 22:42:22 <gmaxwell> michagogo: likely it won't be until the next board meeting that they actually approve the election results and make it happen.
1407 2013-09-23 22:42:34 <gmaxwell> (I'm speculating, but this is how other orgs run)
1408 2013-09-23 22:42:39 <michagogo> Ah, so they're not actually on the board yet?
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1410 2013-09-23 22:42:51 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't expect them to be yet.
1411 2013-09-23 22:42:59 <gmaxwell> At least not officially.
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1413 2013-09-23 22:51:42 <michagogo> bah, why do updates have to take this long? :-/
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1416 2013-09-23 22:53:05 <michagogo> Unpacking replacement linux-headers-3.8.0-19...
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