1 2013-09-24 00:00:28 mintmoney has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2 2013-09-24 00:01:56 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3 2013-09-24 00:02:39 HaltingState has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4 2013-09-24 00:04:24 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5 2013-09-24 00:04:32 HaltingState has joined
6 2013-09-24 00:04:43 reneg has joined
7 2013-09-24 00:06:57 Coincidental has joined
8 2013-09-24 00:08:35 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
9 2013-09-24 00:12:16 ecoloco^ has quit ()
10 2013-09-24 00:12:35 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
11 2013-09-24 00:13:14 Application has joined
12 2013-09-24 00:16:36 rdymac has joined
13 2013-09-24 00:21:17 Belxjander has joined
14 2013-09-24 00:22:17 <michagogo> It's about time...
15 2013-09-24 00:22:32 <michagogo> FINALLY I have everything set up in the new VM
16 2013-09-24 00:25:00 a_meteor has joined
17 2013-09-24 00:25:05 <nkuttler> nice. now make a snapshot if you haven't used used something more sophisticated to configure it
18 2013-09-24 00:28:07 agnostic98 has joined
19 2013-09-24 00:30:06 <warren> cfields: around?
20 2013-09-24 00:30:42 <warren> cfields: after your small fix to boost-win32.yml, ./configure gets stuck at the next problem
21 2013-09-24 00:30:55 <warren> checking whether the Boost::Unit_Test_Framework library is available... yes
22 2013-09-24 00:30:55 <warren> configure: error: No working boost sleep implementation found
23 2013-09-24 00:31:46 bitRipperX has joined
24 2013-09-24 00:32:09 <michagogo> nkuttler: I'll do that after I make-base-vm
25 2013-09-24 00:32:10 macboz has joined
26 2013-09-24 00:32:23 <michagogo> Or should I do that first?
27 2013-09-24 00:32:28 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
28 2013-09-24 00:35:22 <michagogo> I guess I may as well make one before and after
29 2013-09-24 00:36:07 <warren> wumpus: sipa: regarding the earlier discussion about gitian for linux builds, it appears there is a way to explicitly request a particular glibc version. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4032373/linking-against-an-old-version-of-libc-to-provide-greater-application-coverage
30 2013-09-24 00:37:12 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
31 2013-09-24 00:38:55 malaimo has joined
32 2013-09-24 00:39:02 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
33 2013-09-24 00:39:26 <warren> Hmm it's also the libsdc++ ABI, not sure how often that changes.
34 2013-09-24 00:44:06 michagogo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
35 2013-09-24 00:47:59 michagogo has joined
36 2013-09-24 00:48:01 reneg has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
37 2013-09-24 00:50:24 Coincidental has joined
38 2013-09-24 00:52:20 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
39 2013-09-24 00:52:39 johnsoft has joined
40 2013-09-24 00:54:31 michagogo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
41 2013-09-24 00:55:08 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
42 2013-09-24 00:55:45 michagogo has joined
43 2013-09-24 00:56:42 Apexseals has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
44 2013-09-24 00:57:00 Apexseals has joined
45 2013-09-24 00:58:39 agnostic98 has joined
46 2013-09-24 01:03:07 Apexseals has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
47 2013-09-24 01:03:18 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
48 2013-09-24 01:03:25 Apexseals has joined
49 2013-09-24 01:04:09 Coincidental has joined
50 2013-09-24 01:11:18 michagogo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
51 2013-09-24 01:11:45 michagogo has joined
52 2013-09-24 01:14:37 jav__ has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
53 2013-09-24 01:14:57 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
54 2013-09-24 01:15:32 BTCOxygen has joined
55 2013-09-24 01:19:25 <dizko> ive had a persistent problem with tons of connections in TIME_WAIT using bitcoinrpc. just upgraded to the newest 8.5 beta but no improvement
56 2013-09-24 01:19:35 <dizko> anyone seen this?
57 2013-09-24 01:20:20 AusBitBank has joined
58 2013-09-24 01:21:48 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
59 2013-09-24 01:23:09 knotwork has joined
60 2013-09-24 01:29:34 agnostic98 has joined
61 2013-09-24 01:34:27 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
62 2013-09-24 01:34:59 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
63 2013-09-24 01:35:14 Nesetalis has joined
64 2013-09-24 01:35:36 jtimon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
65 2013-09-24 01:35:56 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
66 2013-09-24 01:35:57 Wrenuld has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
67 2013-09-24 01:36:19 FabianB has joined
68 2013-09-24 01:36:26 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
69 2013-09-24 01:38:11 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
70 2013-09-24 01:42:36 prophet10x has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
71 2013-09-24 01:43:45 BTCOxygen has joined
72 2013-09-24 01:43:45 BTCOxygen has quit (Killed (adams.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
73 2013-09-24 01:43:45 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
74 2013-09-24 01:44:45 TheButterZone has joined
75 2013-09-24 01:47:58 Wrenuld has joined
76 2013-09-24 01:49:28 BTCOxygen has joined
77 2013-09-24 01:49:28 BTCOxygen is now known as Guest93534
78 2013-09-24 01:49:28 Guest93534 has quit (Killed (pratchett.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
79 2013-09-24 01:49:28 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
80 2013-09-24 01:55:15 BTCOxygen has joined
81 2013-09-24 01:55:15 BTCOxygen is now known as Guest64685
82 2013-09-24 01:55:16 Guest64685 has quit (Killed (brooks.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
83 2013-09-24 01:55:16 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
84 2013-09-24 01:58:34 <Luke-Jr> dizko: don't open that many connections
85 2013-09-24 01:58:38 <Luke-Jr> dizko: it's a TCP limitation
86 2013-09-24 01:59:24 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
87 2013-09-24 02:00:19 <cfields> warren: need to see a log
88 2013-09-24 02:00:29 agnostic98 has joined
89 2013-09-24 02:00:34 * longcat poops
90 2013-09-24 02:01:24 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
91 2013-09-24 02:02:51 BTCOxygen has joined
92 2013-09-24 02:02:51 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
93 2013-09-24 02:04:53 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
94 2013-09-24 02:06:00 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
95 2013-09-24 02:06:52 Application has joined
96 2013-09-24 02:07:50 <warren> cfields: https://togami.com/~warren/temp/config.log
97 2013-09-24 02:08:28 TheButterZone has left ()
98 2013-09-24 02:08:32 BTCOxygen has joined
99 2013-09-24 02:08:32 BTCOxygen has quit (Killed (morgan.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
100 2013-09-24 02:08:32 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
101 2013-09-24 02:08:36 <michagogo> Okay, so I just gave up on trying to figure out how to tell make-base-vm to use an ISO
102 2013-09-24 02:08:48 <michagogo> After wasting...
103 2013-09-24 02:08:53 <cfields> warren: you have libssl linked in twice
104 2013-09-24 02:09:04 <michagogo> 2-3 hours...
105 2013-09-24 02:09:10 <michagogo> on that issue alone, I think
106 2013-09-24 02:09:56 <warren> cfields: ok, that's likely happening in the bitcoins-deps*.zip ... looking
107 2013-09-24 02:10:08 <cfields> warren: ah sorry, the similar name threw me.
108 2013-09-24 02:10:16 <cfields> tls = thread local storage in this case
109 2013-09-24 02:10:27 <warren> this works with 10.04 gitian? I never tried.
110 2013-09-24 02:10:47 <warren> 10.04 gitian didn't need that ranlib name?
111 2013-09-24 02:11:31 <cfields> boost was able to work it out. but that problem's solved, unrelated to this one
112 2013-09-24 02:13:49 BTCOxygen has joined
113 2013-09-24 02:13:49 BTCOxygen has quit (Killed (adams.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
114 2013-09-24 02:13:49 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
115 2013-09-24 02:14:33 <cfields> warren: that was fixed in boost 1.5.1
116 2013-09-24 02:14:40 <cfields> *1.51
117 2013-09-24 02:15:11 <warren> hm
118 2013-09-24 02:15:41 <warren> cfields: this being for bitcoin 0.9, should we just upgrade gitian to the latest boost?
119 2013-09-24 02:16:11 <cfields> warren: seems the most reasonable would be to use whatever version precise ships
120 2013-09-24 02:16:24 <cfields> since that's what linux will be building against
121 2013-09-24 02:17:45 <warren> cfields: "linux" being what?
122 2013-09-24 02:18:07 <cfields> heh, that'd be a downgrade to 1.48, so i suppose that's out of the question
123 2013-09-24 02:18:25 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
124 2013-09-24 02:18:41 <warren> cfields: gitian linux builds against whatever you define in gitian...
125 2013-09-24 02:19:00 <warren> f*ck it, trying latest boost
126 2013-09-24 02:19:05 <cfields> no, see packages. it uses system packages
127 2013-09-24 02:19:09 Belkaar has joined
128 2013-09-24 02:20:22 <warren> cfields: 1.48 is not acceptable
129 2013-09-24 02:21:05 <cfields> warren: that's what linux will be using
130 2013-09-24 02:21:51 <warren> 10.04 had what version?
131 2013-09-24 02:22:29 <cfields> 1.40
132 2013-09-24 02:23:09 <warren> win32 gitian was using 1.50 for a while now
133 2013-09-24 02:26:08 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
134 2013-09-24 02:26:42 <warren> cfields: meanwhile, the actual devs aren't building and testing bitcoin against the gitian version of libraries at all
135 2013-09-24 02:27:59 <warren> Fedora has only 37 patches on boost 1.54. Sounds great.
136 2013-09-24 02:28:28 * warren tries it anyway
137 2013-09-24 02:29:55 <cfields> warren: i'm aware. I've voiced my concerns.
138 2013-09-24 02:30:45 <gmaxwell> warren: would you please tone down the fud?
139 2013-09-24 02:31:04 <gmaxwell> This is inaccurate. People test the gitan builds for during RC time.
140 2013-09-24 02:31:22 agnostic98 has joined
141 2013-09-24 02:33:50 BTCOxygen has joined
142 2013-09-24 02:33:54 <warren> gmaxwell: fine, s/at all/much/
143 2013-09-24 02:34:13 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
144 2013-09-24 02:34:27 johnsoft has joined
145 2013-09-24 02:35:32 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
146 2013-09-24 02:36:03 <gmaxwell> The alternative is testing less on other things that people use too. Being bug dependant on single old versions of boost would not be a virtue.
147 2013-09-24 02:38:01 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
148 2013-09-24 02:38:39 Belkaar has joined
149 2013-09-24 02:41:19 BTCOxygen has joined
150 2013-09-24 02:41:19 BTCOxygen is now known as Guest51859
151 2013-09-24 02:41:19 Guest51859 has quit (Killed (pratchett.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
152 2013-09-24 02:41:19 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
153 2013-09-24 02:41:27 owowo has quit (Quit: dead)
154 2013-09-24 02:43:48 Guest__ has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
155 2013-09-24 02:45:40 sserrano44 has joined
156 2013-09-24 02:45:42 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
157 2013-09-24 02:45:57 <warren> gmaxwell: wouldn't it be better to make gitian equivalent to the version most devs are using daily?
158 2013-09-24 02:46:20 <warren> gmaxwell: that's easier to control than cat herding
159 2013-09-24 02:46:40 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
160 2013-09-24 02:48:16 BTCOxygen has joined
161 2013-09-24 02:48:48 <gmaxwell> There is no such equivalence possible. People are on different systems, and it can't be concurrently the same as all of them. Frequently updating the underlying libraries would also reduce the security assurances gitian provides. And then there is the issue of wanting to have binary compatiblity with older systems, which necessitates building against an older libc.
162 2013-09-24 02:51:20 ForceMajeure_ has joined
163 2013-09-24 02:52:12 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
164 2013-09-24 02:53:00 <michagogo> gaining the ability to gitian-build in an Ubuntu VM with LXC (so I can do it from within Windows) is taking... much, much longer than I expected
165 2013-09-24 02:53:33 ForceMajeure has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
166 2013-09-24 02:53:50 <michagogo> Even ignoring the 2-3 hours that I spent trying to figure out if I could speed up the make-base-vm with the ubuntu ISOs...
167 2013-09-24 02:54:41 <michagogo> I started with this 6 hours ago :-/
168 2013-09-24 02:59:10 <warren> michagogo: 'speeding up' is irrelevant when apt-cacher-ng does its job.
169 2013-09-24 02:59:29 <michagogo> apt-cacher-ng?
170 2013-09-24 03:00:05 BTCOxygen has joined
171 2013-09-24 03:02:08 <michagogo> warren: ?
172 2013-09-24 03:02:10 <cfields> warren / sipa: https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/pull/14
173 2013-09-24 03:02:17 agnostic98 has joined
174 2013-09-24 03:02:22 Subo1977_ has joined
175 2013-09-24 03:03:05 <warren> cfields: it has a way to force in the case of cross compiling?
176 2013-09-24 03:03:33 <warren> cfields: and you tested it on mac?
177 2013-09-24 03:04:03 <cfields> warren: it's autotools, so cross works the same as everything else
178 2013-09-24 03:04:10 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
179 2013-09-24 03:04:44 <warren> cfields: on mac it does -arch i386 -mmacosx_version=10.5 ?
180 2013-09-24 03:04:53 <warren> hmm, the latter isn't needed
181 2013-09-24 03:07:00 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
182 2013-09-24 03:07:57 ticean has joined
183 2013-09-24 03:11:06 apurplehorse has joined
184 2013-09-24 03:14:45 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
185 2013-09-24 03:18:28 <warren> boost-1.54 has trouble building, looking at this later.
186 2013-09-24 03:26:34 Heimdall has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
187 2013-09-24 03:37:13 cdecker has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
188 2013-09-24 03:41:39 gcX46 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
189 2013-09-24 03:49:14 cdecker has joined
190 2013-09-24 03:49:36 shesek has joined
191 2013-09-24 03:50:23 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
192 2013-09-24 03:50:33 [7] has joined
193 2013-09-24 03:53:00 eoss has joined
194 2013-09-24 03:57:02 GordonG3kko has joined
195 2013-09-24 04:21:51 mappum has joined
196 2013-09-24 04:26:45 CryptoBuck has joined
197 2013-09-24 04:27:25 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
198 2013-09-24 04:28:59 <warren> They added a bug to 1.54 that assumes you will never disable zlib.
199 2013-09-24 04:30:04 Coincidental has joined
200 2013-09-24 04:33:28 wei_ has joined
201 2013-09-24 04:34:30 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
202 2013-09-24 04:35:53 GordonG3kko has joined
203 2013-09-24 04:36:56 MobPhone has quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.10 Just need to be Chiznillen)
204 2013-09-24 04:39:45 paybitcoin has joined
205 2013-09-24 04:39:45 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
206 2013-09-24 04:41:28 jedunnigan has joined
207 2013-09-24 04:46:45 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
208 2013-09-24 04:48:56 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
209 2013-09-24 04:49:55 MobGod_ has joined
210 2013-09-24 04:50:04 MobGod has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
211 2013-09-24 04:52:05 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
212 2013-09-24 04:55:49 Muis has joined
213 2013-09-24 04:57:36 rdegges has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
214 2013-09-24 04:58:34 Edward_Black has quit (Quit: ow ow ow...)
215 2013-09-24 04:59:05 Edward_Black has joined
216 2013-09-24 04:59:22 rdegges has joined
217 2013-09-24 05:01:46 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
218 2013-09-24 05:04:54 bizoro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
219 2013-09-24 05:05:00 bizoro_ has joined
220 2013-09-24 05:14:48 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
221 2013-09-24 05:19:41 wei_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
222 2013-09-24 05:20:17 wei_ has joined
223 2013-09-24 05:23:37 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
224 2013-09-24 05:24:00 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
225 2013-09-24 05:24:27 BTCOxygen has joined
226 2013-09-24 05:25:11 bizoro_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
227 2013-09-24 05:29:18 Edward_Black has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
228 2013-09-24 05:30:31 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
229 2013-09-24 05:30:42 pecket has joined
230 2013-09-24 05:39:41 Edward_Black has joined
231 2013-09-24 05:50:05 Arnavion has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
232 2013-09-24 05:50:21 Arnavion has joined
233 2013-09-24 05:59:09 jedunnigan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
234 2013-09-24 05:59:37 Arnavion has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
235 2013-09-24 06:02:31 <dizko> Luke-Jr: sorry for delay in responding, thanks for your input
236 2013-09-24 06:02:41 <dizko> Luke-Jr: is there a way to kee pthe connection open then?
237 2013-09-24 06:04:38 <dizko> Luke-Jr: also, is there a method to close the connection instead of letting it go into TIME_WAIT? wouldnt it be better if someone sent a FIN
238 2013-09-24 06:07:33 toffoo has joined
239 2013-09-24 06:07:58 Arnavion has joined
240 2013-09-24 06:09:03 jedunnigan has joined
241 2013-09-24 06:12:08 Application has joined
242 2013-09-24 06:16:20 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
243 2013-09-24 06:17:45 elgrecoFL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
244 2013-09-24 06:21:21 elgrecoFL has joined
245 2013-09-24 06:29:12 Krellan_ has joined
246 2013-09-24 06:34:38 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
247 2013-09-24 06:36:47 Polyatomic has joined
248 2013-09-24 06:37:23 jedunnigan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
249 2013-09-24 06:44:41 djcoin has joined
250 2013-09-24 06:48:36 psychophoniac has joined
251 2013-09-24 06:50:41 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
252 2013-09-24 06:53:52 Coincidental has joined
253 2013-09-24 06:57:17 agnostic98 has joined
254 2013-09-24 06:59:41 kjj has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
255 2013-09-24 07:04:41 Thepok has joined
256 2013-09-24 07:05:12 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
257 2013-09-24 07:05:49 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
258 2013-09-24 07:12:49 enikanorov_ has joined
259 2013-09-24 07:15:29 enikanorov has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
260 2013-09-24 07:18:41 wallet43 has joined
261 2013-09-24 07:19:34 StarenseN has joined
262 2013-09-24 07:22:37 wallet43 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
263 2013-09-24 07:24:41 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
264 2013-09-24 07:25:54 Transisto has joined
265 2013-09-24 07:30:59 jaklind has joined
266 2013-09-24 07:32:02 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
267 2013-09-24 07:32:23 CryptoBuck has joined
268 2013-09-24 07:39:33 zer0def has joined
269 2013-09-24 07:40:50 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
270 2013-09-24 07:40:56 macboz_ has joined
271 2013-09-24 07:41:47 mortikia has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
272 2013-09-24 07:43:52 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
273 2013-09-24 07:44:17 <warren> found bug in boost, reporting upstream. It was broken in April 2013
274 2013-09-24 07:45:14 <warren> https://svn.boost.org/trac/boost/ticket/9156
275 2013-09-24 07:47:36 ThomasV has joined
276 2013-09-24 07:47:58 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
277 2013-09-24 07:49:41 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
278 2013-09-24 07:54:05 mortikia has joined
279 2013-09-24 07:59:53 pablog has joined
280 2013-09-24 07:59:53 pablog has quit (Changing host)
281 2013-09-24 07:59:53 pablog has joined
282 2013-09-24 08:00:44 t7 has joined
283 2013-09-24 08:04:42 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
284 2013-09-24 08:05:11 BTCOxygen has joined
285 2013-09-24 08:05:11 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
286 2013-09-24 08:13:36 coius has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
287 2013-09-24 08:14:48 StarenseN has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
288 2013-09-24 08:16:34 StarenseN has joined
289 2013-09-24 08:26:52 stalled has joined
290 2013-09-24 08:29:16 GordonG3kko has joined
291 2013-09-24 08:30:01 Coincidental has joined
292 2013-09-24 08:31:10 leakybuckit has joined
293 2013-09-24 08:48:03 ForceMajeure has joined
294 2013-09-24 08:50:25 ForceMajeure_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
295 2013-09-24 08:51:15 kjj has joined
296 2013-09-24 08:53:55 <warren> grrr... more build regressions in boost-1.54
297 2013-09-24 08:54:09 <warren> apparently mingw is not something they test.
298 2013-09-24 08:55:58 <warren> ...failed gcc.compile.asm bin.v2/libs/context/build/gcc-mingw-4.6/release/link-static/target-os-windows/threadapi-win32/threading-multi/asm/jump_i386_sysv_elf_gas.o...
299 2013-09-24 08:56:10 <warren> I think it shouldn't be trying to build this on win32 ...
300 2013-09-24 08:56:22 jtimon has joined
301 2013-09-24 09:00:09 monkeynipples has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
302 2013-09-24 09:01:07 one_zero has quit ()
303 2013-09-24 09:02:11 viperhr has joined
304 2013-09-24 09:02:37 monkeynipples has joined
305 2013-09-24 09:02:57 elgrecoFL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
306 2013-09-24 09:03:04 Neozonz has joined
307 2013-09-24 09:03:04 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@198-84-245-103.cpe.teksavvy.com|Changing host)
308 2013-09-24 09:03:04 Neozonz has joined
309 2013-09-24 09:06:21 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
310 2013-09-24 09:06:53 elgrecoFL has joined
311 2013-09-24 09:08:57 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
312 2013-09-24 09:09:35 fanquake has joined
313 2013-09-24 09:09:49 one_zero has joined
314 2013-09-24 09:13:48 msvb-lab has joined
315 2013-09-24 09:13:48 toffoo has quit ()
316 2013-09-24 09:15:16 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
317 2013-09-24 09:16:10 paraipan has joined
318 2013-09-24 09:19:47 <warren> cfields: would it be dangerous to insert a persistent partition into gitian VM's containing ccache data?
319 2013-09-24 09:19:54 * warren is tired of waiting.
320 2013-09-24 09:20:14 <warren> wumpus: thoughts?
321 2013-09-24 09:20:33 GordonG3kko has joined
322 2013-09-24 09:27:05 saulimus has joined
323 2013-09-24 09:29:10 melvster has joined
324 2013-09-24 09:32:09 <warren> hmm, ccache might just fail entirely with the faketime
325 2013-09-24 09:32:29 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
326 2013-09-24 09:36:32 hnz has joined
327 2013-09-24 09:37:04 <warren> https://svn.boost.org/trac/boost/ticket/7262
328 2013-09-24 09:37:23 <warren> crap. some boost dev refuses to add a patch that would allow cross-compile builds...
329 2013-09-24 09:48:57 melvster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
330 2013-09-24 09:50:39 melvster has joined
331 2013-09-24 09:50:46 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
332 2013-09-24 09:52:20 mortikia has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
333 2013-09-24 09:52:28 mortikia has joined
334 2013-09-24 09:58:51 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
335 2013-09-24 10:00:59 macboz_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
336 2013-09-24 10:01:29 graingert has joined
337 2013-09-24 10:01:29 graingert has quit (Changing host)
338 2013-09-24 10:01:29 graingert has joined
339 2013-09-24 10:02:08 macboz has joined
340 2013-09-24 10:06:14 awishformore has joined
341 2013-09-24 10:08:39 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
342 2013-09-24 10:13:50 cyphase has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
343 2013-09-24 10:14:15 paraipan has joined
344 2013-09-24 10:16:46 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds)
345 2013-09-24 10:21:55 <runeks> Getting the following error when trying to build bitcoind from master:
346 2013-09-24 10:21:57 <runeks> /usr/bin/ld: leveldb/libleveldb.a(db_iter.o): relocation R_X86_64_32 against `.rodata' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
347 2013-09-24 10:21:57 <runeks> leveldb/libleveldb.a: could not read symbols: Bad value
348 2013-09-24 10:22:12 <runeks> On Ubuntu Raring, 64 bit.
349 2013-09-24 10:22:20 <sipa> runeks: clean your working directory
350 2013-09-24 10:22:24 <sipa> (just once)
351 2013-09-24 10:22:30 <runeks> Will do.
352 2013-09-24 10:28:28 <runeks> Woo! That fixed it. Thanks sipa.
353 2013-09-24 10:28:38 nowan has joined
354 2013-09-24 10:30:37 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
355 2013-09-24 10:31:11 <runeks> Err. Now I'm getting the ": Corrupted block database detected." error. The bitcoind version from the Ubuntu PPA works fine...
356 2013-09-24 10:32:17 <runeks> 2013-09-24 10:30:11 ERROR: DisconnectBlock() : added transaction mismatch? database corrupted
357 2013-09-24 10:32:17 <runeks> 2013-09-24 10:30:15 ERROR: DisconnectBlock() : added transaction mismatch? database corrupted
358 2013-09-24 10:32:17 <runeks> 2013-09-24 10:30:16 ERROR: VerifyDB() : *** coin database inconsistencies found (last 242 blocks, 11047 good transactions before that)
359 2013-09-24 10:33:07 <sipa> what block are you at?
360 2013-09-24 10:33:16 <runeks> 2013-09-24 10:30:07 LoadBlockIndexDB(): hashBestChain=0000000000000001cbf0ee211ec773bf5ca4e4868568ca7e9f91ea52f4bef45d height=259822 date=2013-09-24 10:26:48
361 2013-09-24 10:33:20 <sipa> and what version is the ppa?
362 2013-09-24 10:33:22 <sipa> ;;blocks
363 2013-09-24 10:33:22 <gribble> 259822
364 2013-09-24 10:33:37 <runeks> Bitcoin version v0.8.5.0-gef14a26-beta
365 2013-09-24 10:33:38 <runeks> in PPA
366 2013-09-24 10:33:41 <sipa> hmm
367 2013-09-24 10:34:24 <sipa> that may be because of a recent change
368 2013-09-24 10:35:00 <sipa> can you try checking out a28fb70e45d7 and building that?
369 2013-09-24 10:35:43 <runeks> I'll try that.
370 2013-09-24 10:35:51 <sipa> thanks for reporting
371 2013-09-24 10:36:01 <runeks> Thanks for helping me :)
372 2013-09-24 10:36:06 <sipa> oh, wait
373 2013-09-24 10:36:17 <sipa> did you get this error at first startup of git head?
374 2013-09-24 10:36:37 <runeks> sipa: Yes.
375 2013-09-24 10:36:56 <sipa> hmm
376 2013-09-24 10:37:01 <sipa> ok, yeah, still possible
377 2013-09-24 10:37:15 <sipa> if a28fb7 works, i have an idea where to look
378 2013-09-24 10:37:42 <runeks> sipa: Can I still build only bitcoind by running "make" in the "src/" dir?
379 2013-09-24 10:38:15 <sipa> after you've ran autogen and configure in the root, yes
380 2013-09-24 10:38:30 <runeks> Cool. It's running now.
381 2013-09-24 10:38:39 <sipa> that's fast
382 2013-09-24 10:38:49 <runeks> The build :)
383 2013-09-24 10:38:52 <sipa> ah
384 2013-09-24 10:38:54 * sipa afk
385 2013-09-24 10:40:05 <runeks> Do I need to re-run autogen and configure after checking out a28fb7?
386 2013-09-24 10:41:01 jeewee has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
387 2013-09-24 10:41:50 Eiii has quit ()
388 2013-09-24 10:42:34 handle has joined
389 2013-09-24 10:44:25 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
390 2013-09-24 10:45:12 johnsoft has joined
391 2013-09-24 10:45:39 <runeks> sipa: a28fb70e45d7 works.
392 2013-09-24 10:51:16 farcrowe_ has joined
393 2013-09-24 10:51:58 * warren FINALLY fixed boost. I think.
394 2013-09-24 10:51:59 farcrowe_ has quit (Client Quit)
395 2013-09-24 10:52:32 <warren> It turns out all versions from 1.51.0+ can't be cross-compiled unless you apply a patch to workaround upstream's poor decision.
396 2013-09-24 10:52:51 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
397 2013-09-24 10:56:34 paraipan has joined
398 2013-09-24 10:56:55 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
399 2013-09-24 10:56:55 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
400 2013-09-24 10:57:28 CodeShark has quit (Quit: Goodbye)
401 2013-09-24 10:58:33 CodeShark has joined
402 2013-09-24 11:05:45 Polyatomic has quit (Quit: Catcha Round)
403 2013-09-24 11:06:22 * warren sobs silently.
404 2013-09-24 11:06:45 <Graet> there there
405 2013-09-24 11:07:01 <warren> gitian win32 with precise ... explodes while building test_bitcoin.exe which it cannot actually run.
406 2013-09-24 11:07:07 Arnavion has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
407 2013-09-24 11:07:58 Arnavion has joined
408 2013-09-24 11:09:09 zeddan81 has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
409 2013-09-24 11:09:46 <warren> sipa: I'll take a look at cfields's autotoolify of secp256k1 soon. You think it's good enough to include as a non-default option?
410 2013-09-24 11:11:50 <warren> The risks exists I know. I think this may however allow a huge group of Linux devs who have been unable to easily build bitcoin to maybe join.
411 2013-09-24 11:12:34 mortikia has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
412 2013-09-24 11:13:43 <kinlo> because of autotools?
413 2013-09-24 11:14:04 <kinlo> I doubt that. Linux devvers are used to do without, and many people actually detest autotools :)
414 2013-09-24 11:14:05 <sipa> no, because of my self-implemented crypto :)
415 2013-09-24 11:14:15 <kinlo> (including me)
416 2013-09-24 11:14:33 <sipa> everybody detests autotools
417 2013-09-24 11:14:36 <kinlo> it's included in trunk? :)
418 2013-09-24 11:14:38 <sipa> it just happens to work a bit
419 2013-09-24 11:14:52 pooler has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0/20130803193131])
420 2013-09-24 11:15:07 <kinlo> sipa: there were some alternatives for autotools, but I guess none of them got the required support to grow
421 2013-09-24 11:15:24 <warren> kinlo: Fedora and RH has a great many developers who might have been annoyed by the higher bar of entry to dev bitcoin and have given up.
422 2013-09-24 11:15:24 <sipa> kinlo: yeah, the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from :)
423 2013-09-24 11:15:35 <warren> because replacing your system openssl is not something to be taken lightly
424 2013-09-24 11:15:48 <sipa> kinlo: i've been working on a library to implement secp256k1 (bitcoin's EC curve) code from scratch
425 2013-09-24 11:15:55 <sipa> kinlo: and it happens to be significantly faster than openssl
426 2013-09-24 11:16:05 <warren> OMGWTFFASTER
427 2013-09-24 11:16:26 <sipa> i have an experimental branch (not pullreq'ed even) that switches bitcoin to use that library instead of openssl for EC
428 2013-09-24 11:16:38 <kinlo> sipa: yeah, I know, I didn't know it was already included in trunk
429 2013-09-24 11:16:42 <sipa> it's not
430 2013-09-24 11:16:43 tekkentux has joined
431 2013-09-24 11:16:46 <kinlo> oh
432 2013-09-24 11:16:50 <sipa> it's not even pull-requested yet
433 2013-09-24 11:17:27 <kinlo> I hope they do explain the math behind it in the cryptocourse soon, have been holding off to learn it on my own for now
434 2013-09-24 11:17:48 <sipa> did the course start already?
435 2013-09-24 11:17:50 reizuki__ has joined
436 2013-09-24 11:17:54 <kinlo> it has been delayed
437 2013-09-24 11:17:58 <kinlo> quite a surprise eh
438 2013-09-24 11:18:08 <kinlo> delayed... who could predict that
439 2013-09-24 11:18:17 <sipa> haha
440 2013-09-24 11:18:23 <sipa> but cfields (who did the autotools stuff for bitcoin) now autotools'ified libsecp256k1 as well now
441 2013-09-24 11:18:30 <sipa> which would make it a bit easier to integrate
442 2013-09-24 11:19:04 <kinlo> sipa: 15 okt btw :)
443 2013-09-24 11:19:04 <sipa> on one hand, giving it more exposure is nice, but i don't want people actually using it before it's significantly better audited
444 2013-09-24 11:19:11 <sipa> kinlo: good to know
445 2013-09-24 11:19:51 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
446 2013-09-24 11:20:17 <warren> sipa: what are the types of failure possible again?
447 2013-09-24 11:20:38 pooler has joined
448 2013-09-24 11:21:04 <kinlo> warren: I guess leaking private data and validating invalid signatures? :)
449 2013-09-24 11:21:21 <sipa> warren: if (significant) hashpower uses libsecp256k1, and there's an exploitable error in the implementation, it could lead to a hard fork
450 2013-09-24 11:21:41 <sipa> warren: also, it could make you accept invalid transactions potentially
451 2013-09-24 11:21:51 <sipa> or create invalid transactions
452 2013-09-24 11:21:56 <kinlo> sipa: is the algorithm so complex? if I look at stuff like RSA, it's like 5 lines of code to implement...
453 2013-09-24 11:22:03 <sipa> kinlo: haha :D
454 2013-09-24 11:22:09 <sipa> kinlo: it's trivial to implement
455 2013-09-24 11:22:12 <kinlo> seriously :)
456 2013-09-24 11:22:21 <sipa> kinlo: but pretty hard to implement efficiently
457 2013-09-24 11:22:34 <warren> sipa: is openssl able to validate that a libsecp256k1 tx is valid?
458 2013-09-24 11:22:38 elgrecoFL has quit (Changing host)
459 2013-09-24 11:22:38 elgrecoFL has joined
460 2013-09-24 11:22:39 <sipa> warren: yes
461 2013-09-24 11:22:43 <sipa> of course
462 2013-09-24 11:22:48 <kinlo> sipa: I would have guessed that gmp or whatever lib you use would be the bottleneck and already optimized
463 2013-09-24 11:22:49 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
464 2013-09-24 11:22:53 one_zero has quit ()
465 2013-09-24 11:23:03 <kinlo> sipa: do you have your implementation online in a git repo somewhere?
466 2013-09-24 11:23:05 <sipa> kinlo: i only use gmp for scalar operations
467 2013-09-24 11:23:18 <sipa> kinlo: yes, http://github.com/sipa/secp256k1
468 2013-09-24 11:23:49 <sipa> kinlo: all field operations are done on an own data structure, implemented from scratch
469 2013-09-24 11:24:03 <sipa> i have a field implementation that uses GMP as well, but it's significantly slower
470 2013-09-24 11:24:20 <kinlo> sipa: you are sure you didn't make it in java right? :)
471 2013-09-24 11:24:27 <kinlo> the directory structure scares me :p
472 2013-09-24 11:25:03 <sipa> there's a java glue library
473 2013-09-24 11:25:10 <sipa> as BitcoinJ optionally uses it
474 2013-09-24 11:25:19 <sipa> but the code is C
475 2013-09-24 11:25:32 <kinlo> right, just read the java part
476 2013-09-24 11:27:23 mortikia has joined
477 2013-09-24 11:28:26 CheckDavid has joined
478 2013-09-24 11:28:28 CheckDavid has quit (Changing host)
479 2013-09-24 11:28:28 CheckDavid has joined
480 2013-09-24 11:30:23 <kinlo> sipa: did you consider deterministic nonces?
481 2013-09-24 11:30:31 <sipa> of course
482 2013-09-24 11:31:02 <kinlo> just read your .h file that still requires nonces
483 2013-09-24 11:31:04 <sipa> but libsecp256k1's api lets you pass the nonce yourself when signing
484 2013-09-24 11:31:13 <sipa> so it's up to the caller
485 2013-09-24 11:31:26 <sipa> it has no RNG or hashing code
486 2013-09-24 11:31:51 <kinlo> you've implemented the lib to be compatible with an existing lib?
487 2013-09-24 11:32:12 <kinlo> (otherwise you could have removed the nonce/added own hash and be done with it)
488 2013-09-24 11:32:55 <sipa> no, i designed it to have minimal dependencies
489 2013-09-24 11:33:01 <sipa> do one thing and do it well
490 2013-09-24 11:33:25 <sipa> creating tje nonce requires either an RNG or hash functions
491 2013-09-24 11:33:43 <kinlo> yeah, but would make the lib foolproof :)
492 2013-09-24 11:33:57 <kinlo> now people still need to understand the concept of random numbers
493 2013-09-24 11:34:18 <sipa> meh, i'll put a pseudocode RFC 6979 algorithm in the .h gile
494 2013-09-24 11:34:22 <sipa> *file
495 2013-09-24 11:34:22 <kinlo> oh well, there will always be a bigger fool I guess :)
496 2013-09-24 11:37:55 <warren> cfields: I am VERY CLOSE to fixing this. Now stuck with a openssl linking problem on the final link of bitcoin-qt.exe
497 2013-09-24 11:40:16 <warren> cfields: https://togami.com/~warren/temp/libcrypto-linking-error-bitcoin-qt.exe-build.log
498 2013-09-24 11:42:36 <warren> cfields: https://github.com/wtogami/bitcoin/commits/gitianwin32 I had to workaround only three regressions in boost cross-compiling.
499 2013-09-24 11:43:48 <xfers> can i water cool a jalapeno with h50
500 2013-09-24 11:44:11 <warren> xfers: off-topic for this channel.
501 2013-09-24 11:46:29 <xfers> who you think you are
502 2013-09-24 11:46:39 reizuki__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
503 2013-09-24 11:46:45 <sipa> xfers: warren is right
504 2013-09-24 11:46:46 <michagogo> Okay, so after spending a total of about 6 hours last night getting a lucid amd64 VM set up with all its updates and gitian's deps (2-3 hours of which were trying to figure out a way to save a few minutes by using the ISOs that I already had downloaded :-/), I started make-base-vm last night before going to sleep (well, I say night -- it was ~7 AM)
505 2013-09-24 11:47:18 <michagogo> Looks like it took about an hour -- came downstairs just now and started the other make-base-vm (for the other arch)
506 2013-09-24 11:47:21 <sipa> xfers: #bitcoin-mining is probably more appropriate
507 2013-09-24 11:48:13 <michagogo> I'm going to get some very late breakfast (i.e. lunch [2:45 PM]), and then hopefully I'll be able to produce a gitian build.
508 2013-09-24 11:48:19 <michagogo> Wish me luck!
509 2013-09-24 11:48:23 * sipa wishes luck
510 2013-09-24 11:55:36 <warren> cfields: http://www.chilkatsoft.com/p/p_382.asp "If you find unresolved externals such as the following, youâve forgotten to add crypt32.lib to your list of libraries for linking:"
511 2013-09-24 11:56:10 <warren> hmm... should ./configure --disable-tests work?
512 2013-09-24 11:56:19 <warren> it doesn't seem to be working
513 2013-09-24 11:56:29 <warren> sleeptime
514 2013-09-24 12:04:01 fre has joined
515 2013-09-24 12:06:38 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
516 2013-09-24 12:09:30 awishformore has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
517 2013-09-24 12:11:00 Subo1977_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
518 2013-09-24 12:11:08 reizuki__ has joined
519 2013-09-24 12:11:08 reizuki__ has quit (Changing host)
520 2013-09-24 12:11:08 reizuki__ has joined
521 2013-09-24 12:11:53 FluffyBunny has quit (Quit: Off to my cookies⦠And milkâ¦)
522 2013-09-24 12:12:34 awishformore has joined
523 2013-09-24 12:13:35 <sipa> runeks: can you try my 'checkunspend' branch? it may be a fix for that problem
524 2013-09-24 12:14:50 FluffyBunny has joined
525 2013-09-24 12:17:22 awishformore has quit ()
526 2013-09-24 12:17:41 awishformore has joined
527 2013-09-24 12:20:42 Musk has joined
528 2013-09-24 12:22:12 KillYourTV has joined
529 2013-09-24 12:23:02 valparaiso has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
530 2013-09-24 12:24:55 valparaiso has joined
531 2013-09-24 12:25:51 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
532 2013-09-24 12:26:48 keyboard has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
533 2013-09-24 12:27:14 fanquake has left ()
534 2013-09-24 12:27:26 i2pRelay has joined
535 2013-09-24 12:28:24 Subo1977_ has joined
536 2013-09-24 12:31:19 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
537 2013-09-24 12:33:59 TD has joined
538 2013-09-24 12:35:43 jgarzik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
539 2013-09-24 12:37:33 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
540 2013-09-24 12:45:50 _Neil has joined
541 2013-09-24 12:46:40 <michagogo> bah
542 2013-09-24 12:46:42 <michagogo> now what?
543 2013-09-24 12:47:52 TheSeven has joined
544 2013-09-24 12:47:56 apurplehorse has quit ()
545 2013-09-24 12:48:01 ivan\ has joined
546 2013-09-24 12:48:18 has joined
547 2013-09-24 12:50:55 <michagogo> Okay, so it didn't work
548 2013-09-24 12:50:55 <michagogo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6149946/
549 2013-09-24 12:51:20 cyphase has joined
550 2013-09-24 12:52:37 dbitcoin has joined
551 2013-09-24 12:54:27 <runeks> sipa: Yep. I will try that.
552 2013-09-24 12:55:24 <TD> sipa: does your DNS seed software have any way to export the stable IPs it has? for refreshing the seed peers
553 2013-09-24 12:55:45 <sipa> TD: yes, it creates a text file
554 2013-09-24 12:55:52 <michagogo> sipa: any idea what's wrong?
555 2013-09-24 12:56:12 <TD> sipa: could we make bitcoin-qt/bitcoind just load that text file instead of hard-coded array? i mean is it literally just 1 ip per line?
556 2013-09-24 12:56:29 <sipa> TD: i have a perl script that combine such text files into the pnSeed .cpp source code
557 2013-09-24 12:56:43 <sipa> no, it's one line per IP, with several statistics behind it
558 2013-09-24 12:57:01 <sipa> dnsseed.dump
559 2013-09-24 12:57:08 <TD> can you make the text file served via your website, perhaps? i could drop a copy into bitcoinj (libraries can have data files in java) and then just parse it directly.
560 2013-09-24 12:57:16 <TD> then i can remember to just re-download the file before each release
561 2013-09-24 12:58:01 <michagogo> sipa: Are you familiar with gitian+lxc, by any chance?
562 2013-09-24 12:58:06 <sipa> michagogo: hardly
563 2013-09-24 12:58:15 * michagogo is trying to troubleshoot http://paste.ubuntu.com/6149946/
564 2013-09-24 12:58:40 <sipa> michagogo: oh, you don't have the br0 device set up?
565 2013-09-24 12:58:44 <michagogo> I did
566 2013-09-24 12:58:48 <michagogo> didn't*
567 2013-09-24 12:58:52 <michagogo> keep reading
568 2013-09-24 12:59:01 <sipa> michagogo: it's explained in the readme i think
569 2013-09-24 12:59:04 <michagogo> Yes
570 2013-09-24 12:59:07 <michagogo> I fixed that
571 2013-09-24 12:59:11 <sipa> ah
572 2013-09-24 12:59:14 <michagogo> Then I had a different problem
573 2013-09-24 12:59:28 <sipa> oh, i see
574 2013-09-24 12:59:44 <sipa> hmm, no clue
575 2013-09-24 12:59:56 <michagogo> .msg alis list *gitian
576 2013-09-24 12:59:58 <michagogo> bah
577 2013-09-24 13:00:08 <michagogo> nothing :-/
578 2013-09-24 13:00:13 agricocb has joined
579 2013-09-24 13:00:23 <sipa> talk to devrando1
580 2013-09-24 13:00:31 <michagogo> ;;seen devrando1
581 2013-09-24 13:00:32 <gribble> I have not seen devrando1.
582 2013-09-24 13:00:42 <sipa> ;;seen devrandom
583 2013-09-24 13:00:42 <gribble> devrandom was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 weeks, 0 days, 14 hours, 37 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <devrandom> as well as exceptions
584 2013-09-24 13:00:43 <michagogo> devrando1 is away: away
585 2013-09-24 13:00:43 <michagogo> devrando1 has been idle 78hrs 38mins 55secs, signed on Sat Sep 21 09:20:18
586 2013-09-24 13:00:44 <michagogo> :/
587 2013-09-24 13:03:01 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
588 2013-09-24 13:05:18 Thepok has joined
589 2013-09-24 13:06:28 <michagogo> ;;google lxc-start: No such file or directory - failed to get real path
590 2013-09-24 13:06:29 <gribble> Bug #981955 âlxc-execute without config does not seem to work in ...: <https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/981955>; Bug #1212414 âlxc-destroy allows unsafe destruction of overlayfs ...: <https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1212414>; LXC containers or extremely fast virtualization | Stéphane Graber's ...: <http://www.stgraber.org/2009/11/06/lxc-containers-or-extremely-fast- (1 more message)
591 2013-09-24 13:07:35 Muis has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
592 2013-09-24 13:10:43 <TD> sipa: so could you export the seed dump somewhere?
593 2013-09-24 13:14:16 Guest____ has joined
594 2013-09-24 13:19:33 Muis has joined
595 2013-09-24 13:24:39 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: leaving)
596 2013-09-24 13:25:06 <sipa> TD: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seeds.txt
597 2013-09-24 13:25:16 <michagogo> Oh, wait
598 2013-09-24 13:25:20 <michagogo> sipa: if this is it...
599 2013-09-24 13:25:24 sacrelege has joined
600 2013-09-24 13:25:28 <michagogo> br0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:00:00:00:00:00
601 2013-09-24 13:25:28 <michagogo> inet addr:10.0.2.2 Bcast:10.0.2.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
602 2013-09-24 13:25:34 <michagogo> eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 08:00:27:d3:68:6e
603 2013-09-24 13:25:34 <michagogo> inet addr:10.0.2.15 Bcast:10.0.2.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
604 2013-09-24 13:26:12 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
605 2013-09-24 13:26:33 * michagogo looks up how to change the NAT subnet
606 2013-09-24 13:27:01 ralphtheninja has joined
607 2013-09-24 13:28:17 <michagogo> ...dammit... I didn't mean to do that
608 2013-09-24 13:28:38 * michagogo now needs to rerun make-base-vm -_-
609 2013-09-24 13:29:03 <sipa> sure that gitian doesn't require 10.0.2.x?
610 2013-09-24 13:29:12 <michagogo> Hmm?
611 2013-09-24 13:29:15 patcon has joined
612 2013-09-24 13:29:16 <michagogo> Yes, it does
613 2013-09-24 13:29:16 <sipa> i think it's hardcoded
614 2013-09-24 13:29:23 <michagogo> It does require that
615 2013-09-24 13:29:39 <michagogo> The issue is that 10.0.2.x is virtualbox's default nat subnet
616 2013-09-24 13:29:51 Guest____ has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
617 2013-09-24 13:29:59 <sipa> ah, but that shouldn't be hard to change?
618 2013-09-24 13:30:02 <michagogo> Right
619 2013-09-24 13:30:07 <michagogo> I'm looking for how to do that
620 2013-09-24 13:30:18 <michagogo> but accidentally nuked the current state
621 2013-09-24 13:32:12 <TD> sipa: the right sort column is %(30d) ?
622 2013-09-24 13:32:39 <sipa> for long-term availability, that's the best predictor, i guess
623 2013-09-24 13:32:53 <michagogo> Looks like it's not changable in GUI
624 2013-09-24 13:32:57 <michagogo> but vboxmanage can do it:
625 2013-09-24 13:33:14 <michagogo> VBoxManage modifyvm "Ubuntu Raring 64 for Gitian LXC" --natnet1 "10.13.37/24"
626 2013-09-24 13:33:29 <TD> thanks
627 2013-09-24 13:33:31 mintyFresh has joined
628 2013-09-24 13:34:05 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
629 2013-09-24 13:34:34 <michagogo> "In NAT mode, the guest network interface is assigned to the IPv4 range 10.0.x.0/24 by default where x corresponds to the instance of the NAT interface +2. So x is 2 when there is only one NAT instance active. In that case the guest is assigned to the address 10.0.2.15, the gateway is set to 10.0.2.2 and the name server can be found at 10.0.2.3."
630 2013-09-24 13:35:09 <sipa> then don't use NAT? :p
631 2013-09-24 13:35:21 <michagogo> or just VBoxManage modifyvm "Ubuntu Raring 64 for Gitian LXC" --natnet1 "10.13.37/24"
632 2013-09-24 13:35:24 <sipa> bridge should be fine
633 2013-09-24 13:35:57 <michagogo> or just VBoxManage modifyvm "Ubuntu Raring 64 for Gitian LXC" --natnet1 "10.13.37/24"
634 2013-09-24 13:36:31 <sipa> :D
635 2013-09-24 13:38:29 * michagogo sighs
636 2013-09-24 13:38:39 <michagogo> I guess in a couple hours I'll know if it worked
637 2013-09-24 13:39:31 jgarzik has joined
638 2013-09-24 13:41:37 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
639 2013-09-24 13:42:07 MobGod_ has left ()
640 2013-09-24 13:42:11 johnsoft has joined
641 2013-09-24 13:42:44 MobGod has joined
642 2013-09-24 13:44:31 bizoro_ has joined
643 2013-09-24 13:44:47 handle_ has joined
644 2013-09-24 13:46:51 wiretapped has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
645 2013-09-24 13:47:11 handle has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
646 2013-09-24 13:47:36 MobGod_ has joined
647 2013-09-24 13:47:46 graingert has joined
648 2013-09-24 13:48:06 gangplank has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
649 2013-09-24 13:48:41 gangplank has joined
650 2013-09-24 13:48:56 graingert has quit (Client Quit)
651 2013-09-24 13:49:01 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
652 2013-09-24 13:49:19 jedunnigan has joined
653 2013-09-24 13:50:45 ThomasV has joined
654 2013-09-24 13:51:38 fre has quit (Quit: zzz)
655 2013-09-24 13:54:24 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
656 2013-09-24 13:54:59 johnsoft has joined
657 2013-09-24 13:57:11 patcon has joined
658 2013-09-24 13:58:49 t7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
659 2013-09-24 13:59:57 t7 has joined
660 2013-09-24 14:04:04 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
661 2013-09-24 14:05:36 graingert has joined
662 2013-09-24 14:06:02 <jgarzik> mornin'
663 2013-09-24 14:06:03 graingert has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
664 2013-09-24 14:06:42 graingert has joined
665 2013-09-24 14:11:32 jedunnigan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
666 2013-09-24 14:12:32 darkskiez has joined
667 2013-09-24 14:15:00 Neozonz has joined
668 2013-09-24 14:15:03 <sipa> 'fternoon
669 2013-09-24 14:15:27 <Neozonz> is there a standard format for mining pool solutions?
670 2013-09-24 14:15:27 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
671 2013-09-24 14:16:03 <Neozonz> looking at mmcfe, eloipool, stratum everyone seems to have different formats for solutions
672 2013-09-24 14:16:22 * michagogo grumbles at the hour that it takes for each make-base-vm
673 2013-09-24 14:16:34 datagutt has joined
674 2013-09-24 14:17:45 <jgarzik> From ASICMINER update:
675 2013-09-24 14:17:47 <jgarzik> "LTC ASIC
676 2013-09-24 14:17:47 <jgarzik> ASICMINER determined LTC ASIC is not viable since a high-speed memory bus is much more useful in other industries and very expensive to make in this regard."
677 2013-09-24 14:18:01 <michagogo> Isn't that kinda the point of LTC?
678 2013-09-24 14:18:13 <sipa> it was designed to be hard on GPU's
679 2013-09-24 14:18:53 <sipa> which failed, but apparently it's enough to make it hard on ASICs (for now; if LTC mining economy grows further there will come a point in time where it's profitable anyway)
680 2013-09-24 14:18:53 wei_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
681 2013-09-24 14:20:23 datagutt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
682 2013-09-24 14:22:28 <jgarzik> Random interesting TD quote from forum: "I worked with Ben Reeves to fix blockchain.info+iPhone app so it no longer is generating negative S values. Or rather, the app still does generate them, but they get mutated server side to be of canonical form. Fixing this halved the number of pending transactions from b.i literally overnight."
683 2013-09-24 14:22:49 * jgarzik didn't know the impact of that change was so large
684 2013-09-24 14:22:49 <TD> yeah
685 2013-09-24 14:23:11 <sipa> i'm surprised i had to learn about this that way
686 2013-09-24 14:23:33 <michagogo> o_O
687 2013-09-24 14:23:38 wei_ has joined
688 2013-09-24 14:23:45 <michagogo> Why not just fix the app?
689 2013-09-24 14:23:48 <sipa> when we proposed making negative values non-canonical i even mailed ben about finding the source of those still creating them
690 2013-09-24 14:23:59 <gmaxwell> As did I.
691 2013-09-24 14:24:31 <sipa> and as we had been mailing (much earlier) about that exact problem, i assumed he was aware of it (i assumed the known problem in bitcoinjs was fixed long ago)
692 2013-09-24 14:24:41 graingert has joined
693 2013-09-24 14:24:58 <TD> he was aware of it
694 2013-09-24 14:25:10 <TD> he doesn't want to update the iphone app because it'd trigger a re-review by apple and possibly result in it being revoked
695 2013-09-24 14:25:20 <michagogo> Hmm? Why?
696 2013-09-24 14:25:27 <TD> what he was unaware of, was that transactions can be re-canonicalised server side
697 2013-09-24 14:25:27 <sipa> yeah, i wasn't aware of the fact that updating was that hard
698 2013-09-24 14:25:35 <gmaxwell> because apple is apple.
699 2013-09-24 14:25:40 <petertodd> michagogo: it got revoked before
700 2013-09-24 14:25:45 <michagogo> It did?
701 2013-09-24 14:25:56 <sipa> so when we proposed making them non-standard, that was 1 year or so after all known software was fixed
702 2013-09-24 14:25:58 <gmaxwell> And ... centeralized control stucks, controlling parties behave in random ways. :)
703 2013-09-24 14:26:06 <TD> there are lots of examples of apps that sailed through their first review and then got blocked when an update to fix bugs was submitted, often for some random reason like the second reviewer didn't like the shade of blue used on your buttons
704 2013-09-24 14:26:08 <petertodd> michagogo: yup, then he somehow snuck it back in - well, just as eaisly apple decided they'd allow one bitcoin wallet app but not more
705 2013-09-24 14:26:24 <TD> sipa: it uses a long-since obsolete version of bitcoinjs i think
706 2013-09-24 14:26:24 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
707 2013-09-24 14:26:34 <sipa> TD: yeah, i'm aware of that now :)
708 2013-09-24 14:26:36 <petertodd> Hopefully bc.i on apple has a working RNG...
709 2013-09-24 14:26:48 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
710 2013-09-24 14:26:54 * TD would not be surprised to learn it was weak
711 2013-09-24 14:27:19 <TD> it's not sustainable to continue like that on iOS. i'm hoping that if we can keep it around as long as possible then at some point the Foundation can go talk to Apple and get traction
712 2013-09-24 14:27:28 johnsoft has joined
713 2013-09-24 14:27:34 <gmaxwell> no worries, if the rng doesn't return, bc.i's JS code just uses the mouse position. I'm sure they defended in depth like that on the ios code too. :P
714 2013-09-24 14:27:37 <TD> or someone will manage to get a competitor into the store
715 2013-09-24 14:27:58 <michagogo> Are the bc.i mobile apps open source?
716 2013-09-24 14:29:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Oh! which means that high resolution screens are more secure!
717 2013-09-24 14:30:03 <sipa> i don't understand why one peer has a 30-day availability of >99%, while all others are <93%
718 2013-09-24 14:30:11 <sipa> as seen by my dns seed
719 2013-09-24 14:30:11 <jgarzik> petertodd, rofl
720 2013-09-24 14:30:42 <jgarzik> And: three cheers for pruning! (gavin merged the prune-unspendable change)
721 2013-09-24 14:30:48 <jgarzik> Another milestone.
722 2013-09-24 14:30:58 <petertodd> sipa: maybe that one peer is only connected to you and doesn't allow incoming in general?
723 2013-09-24 14:31:23 <sipa> jgarzik: note that it (again) broke the consistency check :p
724 2013-09-24 14:31:27 <sipa> (see my latest pullreq)
725 2013-09-24 14:31:44 <jgarzik> sipa, just ACK'd that two seconds ago :)
726 2013-09-24 14:32:03 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
727 2013-09-24 14:32:18 <sipa> IRC is lagging behind IRL!
728 2013-09-24 14:32:29 tgerring has joined
729 2013-09-24 14:32:34 <sipa> well, in so far as github represents real life...
730 2013-09-24 14:32:37 tgerring2 has joined
731 2013-09-24 14:32:37 tgerring2 has quit (Client Quit)
732 2013-09-24 14:33:17 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
733 2013-09-24 14:33:40 johnsoft has joined
734 2013-09-24 14:33:59 patcon has joined
735 2013-09-24 14:34:03 CryptoBuck has joined
736 2013-09-24 14:35:16 leakybuckit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
737 2013-09-24 14:35:24 <jgarzik> heh
738 2013-09-24 14:36:50 <petertodd> jgarzik: fwiw it looks like mastercoin is designed such that they're going to be wanting more than one op_return in a tx :/
739 2013-09-24 14:37:27 <jgarzik> petertodd, then somebody should note that in the PR, to add to the archived discussion
740 2013-09-24 14:37:34 Zoop_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
741 2013-09-24 14:37:49 <jgarzik> petertodd, TD wanted OP_DROP _and_ OP_RETURN, IIRC
742 2013-09-24 14:37:55 <jgarzik> because there might be per-txout needs
743 2013-09-24 14:38:12 <sipa> i realy hate these choices
744 2013-09-24 14:38:21 <TD> "design is hard. let's go shopping!"
745 2013-09-24 14:38:37 <DiabloD3> "my dick is hard. lets go ... " no wait, what?
746 2013-09-24 14:38:48 * michagogo slaps DiabloD3 around a bit with a large trout
747 2013-09-24 14:38:56 <sipa> on one hand, you want to avoid unnecessary data in the block chain altogether
748 2013-09-24 14:38:56 <petertodd> jgarzik: see, OP_DROP in a P2SH inner scriptPubKey makes a lot of sense IMO
749 2013-09-24 14:39:23 <sipa> but on the other hand, people will do so anyway, and in that case it's certainly preferable to make that not impact the UTXO set
750 2013-09-24 14:39:38 <jgarzik> petertodd, yah --- I had given thought to permitting this stuff __in scriptsig only__, not in scriptPubKey
751 2013-09-24 14:39:51 <jgarzik> thus input only / p2sh-only
752 2013-09-24 14:40:07 <petertodd> jgarzik: right, and since the actual scriptSig is unsigned, that leaves p2sh inner scriptPubKey only
753 2013-09-24 14:40:27 <petertodd> jgarzik: we can't let it be added to the scriptSig because that's a source of mutability...
754 2013-09-24 14:40:34 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
755 2013-09-24 14:42:26 <petertodd> sipa: with mastercoin I'm thinking we have a very good reason to make anything other than p2sh and pay-to-script-hash non-standard in bare scriptPubKeys
756 2013-09-24 14:42:43 Zoop_ has joined
757 2013-09-24 14:42:49 <petertodd> sipa: next thing you know someone will do another wikileaks uploader, but with a decent UI :(
758 2013-09-24 14:43:01 Anduck has joined
759 2013-09-24 14:43:14 <sipa> petertodd: they can do that, even with pay-to-script-hash and P2SH only
760 2013-09-24 14:43:43 <sipa> and there seems such a ridicuous appeal to using the system as generic data storage, that i expect that that will in fact happen
761 2013-09-24 14:43:55 <sipa> unless fees push such usage out
762 2013-09-24 14:44:00 <petertodd> sipa: it's a lot more expensive when you only get 20 bytes per txout
763 2013-09-24 14:44:10 <jgarzik> petertodd, "p2sh and pay-to-script-hash" you mean p2sh and p2pkh?
764 2013-09-24 14:44:12 <petertodd> sipa: and eventually we can do P2SH^2
765 2013-09-24 14:44:17 <sipa> or we adopt a technique like gmaxwell's to make you prove preimages
766 2013-09-24 14:44:24 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, p2sh and standard tx's
767 2013-09-24 14:44:53 <sipa> ... all those things make me want to rewrite bitcoin from scratch :p
768 2013-09-24 14:44:59 <jgarzik> Well
769 2013-09-24 14:45:00 wiretapped has joined
770 2013-09-24 14:45:07 <jgarzik> Gotta get bitcoinj supporting P2SH first...
771 2013-09-24 14:45:14 <sipa> yeah
772 2013-09-24 14:45:24 <petertodd> sipa: bare checkmultisig is especially ugly because you can stuff 240 bytes of date in two pubkeys, and then make the third one be a valid key - can't prune that
773 2013-09-24 14:45:34 <sipa> i know
774 2013-09-24 14:45:55 Gnaf has joined
775 2013-09-24 14:46:05 <petertodd> reminds me, any objection to tightening up the definition of a pubkey to 65 bytes there?
776 2013-09-24 14:46:26 Gnaf has quit (Changing host)
777 2013-09-24 14:46:26 Gnaf has joined
778 2013-09-24 14:46:32 <gmaxwell> should have made it require compressed keys.
779 2013-09-24 14:46:37 <gmaxwell> alas.
780 2013-09-24 14:47:02 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, make checkmultisig require compressed?
781 2013-09-24 14:47:21 <michagogo> [17:41:03] <petertodd> sipa: with mastercoin I'm thinking we have a very good reason to make anything other than p2sh and pay-to-script-hash non-standard in bare scriptPubKeys
782 2013-09-24 14:47:21 <michagogo> erm, is that not redundant?
783 2013-09-24 14:47:24 <jgarzik> petertodd, RE your OP_RETURN PR question about 80 bytes: the base logic was two sha256 hashes plus some metadata, or one sha512 hash plus metadata. Certainly it is arbitrary, mainly trying to encompass all proposed "not too large" data transit proposals.
784 2013-09-24 14:47:35 <michagogo> Oh...
785 2013-09-24 14:47:35 * michagogo is scrolled up
786 2013-09-24 14:48:03 <petertodd> jgarzik: right, while missing the one example where you have a totally legit reason to tell the world your data :P
787 2013-09-24 14:48:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, could make all multisig without compressed keys non-standard
788 2013-09-24 14:48:12 <jgarzik> that might be nice
789 2013-09-24 14:48:18 <gmaxwell> I wonder if it would help if someone credible produced a merged mined altcoin which was for data storage.. with some minor features that make that less awful. But the problem I keep coming to when I think about that is that no one sane would run it... uh. which bodes poorly for us.
790 2013-09-24 14:48:19 <jgarzik> and effective against some stupid data xmit schemes
791 2013-09-24 14:48:41 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I want such a project to happen...
792 2013-09-24 14:48:59 <sipa> run freenet?
793 2013-09-24 14:49:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I've said for years we need a "pressure valve" for data storage, otherwise people will just use the chain.
794 2013-09-24 14:49:12 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: do you think anyone would run it?
795 2013-09-24 14:49:20 <petertodd> jgarzik: I just did a p2sh multisig without compressed keys for good reason the other day: both parties had well known keys with older wallets and wanted it to be clear who the spending parties were :(
796 2013-09-24 14:49:38 <sipa> petertodd: with p2sh it's not nearly as bad
797 2013-09-24 14:49:42 <jgarzik> sipa, freenet does not compare to 3000x replicated data storage whose integrity that people are financially incented to maintain
798 2013-09-24 14:49:59 <petertodd> sipa: well, I am suggesting we make bare checkmultisig outright non-standard
799 2013-09-24 14:50:00 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: certantly I too am a fan of pressure valves (which is why I think we also need broadcasted messagesses that don't end up in the chain) but I'm finding it hard to believe that people would actually run nodes for that thing.
800 2013-09-24 14:50:02 <sipa> jgarzik: neither will your storage chain
801 2013-09-24 14:50:20 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, If You Build It They Will come
802 2013-09-24 14:50:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I think the only way such a chain would be useful is to the extent that the bitcoin chain is too expensive for the purpose
803 2013-09-24 14:50:42 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, people still run namecoin nodes, and it's shite
804 2013-09-24 14:50:52 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, an officially encouraged data chain? there will be users.
805 2013-09-24 14:51:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, the main problem is econonic incentivesÂ
.
806 2013-09-24 14:51:12 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, kinda run namecoin nodes... I mean, pools keep turning it off and then back on again once they lose some customers since you can increase your income 3% by MM namecoin.
807 2013-09-24 14:51:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: but for the system to be viable, it has to be at least somewhat expensive... which means that for some purposes, the bitcoin chain will always be the best data storage chain
808 2013-09-24 14:51:58 <petertodd> IOW we're fucked
809 2013-09-24 14:52:14 <jgarzik> Data query: how many bare CHECKMULTISIG in the past (144 * 30 * 6) blocks?
810 2013-09-24 14:52:17 <gmaxwell> petertodd: lots of "non viable" things exist.. and can stumble along for years. I'm actually okay with that if it does successfully deflect some storage.
811 2013-09-24 14:52:18 <helo> a good argument against increasing the block size, at least
812 2013-09-24 14:52:45 <jgarzik> There are plenty of good arguments against increasing block size, IMNSHO :)
813 2013-09-24 14:52:52 <helo> yupyup
814 2013-09-24 14:52:53 <runeks> sipa: Your checkunspend branch works for me without problems.
815 2013-09-24 14:52:56 <petertodd> jgarzik: http://webbtc.com/scripts/multisig?offset=19659 <- starting to get some from mastercoin
816 2013-09-24 14:52:58 <gmaxwell> petertodd: e.g. pgp directory servers look like they'd be a great place do dump your warez. :( but they seem to work.
817 2013-09-24 14:53:37 <gmaxwell> yea, I think bare CHECKMULTISIG should die and now I'm kicking myself that I didn't propose that two months ago when _NO ONE_ was using it. :-/
818 2013-09-24 14:53:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: but everyone knows that getting your warez off of pgp keyservers can be made tough, whereas that's not true for bitcoin
819 2013-09-24 14:53:44 <jgarzik> "The block size is an intentionally limited economic resource, just like the 21,000,000-bitcoin limit. Changing that vastly degrades the economics surrounding bitcoin, creating many negative incentives." - me
820 2013-09-24 14:53:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: jdillon offered a bounty to implement just that
821 2013-09-24 14:54:45 <petertodd> Heck, the scary thing is someone could implement a data upload/download tool that's SPV compatible. :(
822 2013-09-24 14:55:46 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
823 2013-09-24 14:55:56 <TD> sigh
824 2013-09-24 14:56:06 <TD> jgarzik: don't commit to a position until you read gavins papers, at least
825 2013-09-24 14:56:38 <jgarzik> TD, I have
826 2013-09-24 14:56:53 <TD> he hasn't written the papers i'm talking about yet, so no you haven't ;)
827 2013-09-24 14:57:05 <jgarzik> TD, I have read all that Gavin has written on the subject
828 2013-09-24 14:57:13 <helo> parallel block download will make data retrieval faster :/
829 2013-09-24 14:57:14 <jgarzik> and every forum thread I could find
830 2013-09-24 14:57:23 <petertodd> jgarzik: no shame in committing to a position and then later deciding you were wrong
831 2013-09-24 14:57:24 * gmaxwell covers his ears
832 2013-09-24 14:57:30 <gmaxwell> new subject new subject new subject
833 2013-09-24 14:58:05 <jgarzik> TD, Without block space competition, developers are directly sticking their hands into the free market, when they should not be
834 2013-09-24 14:58:17 <gmaxwell> TD: Seen how mastercoin is stuffing data in txouts to act as the storage their mastercoin currency?
835 2013-09-24 14:58:20 <petertodd> jgarzik: hell, I now think you can make a scalable Bitcoin with arbitrarily large numbers of transactions, it's just that it has to have somewhat weaker security properties, and a different economic model
836 2013-09-24 14:58:23 <TD> i think reading all the arguments in a coherent white paper will work better
837 2013-09-24 14:58:25 <jgarzik> TD, and that cannot be hand-waved away with assurance contracts and future schemes like that
838 2013-09-24 14:58:28 <TD> than trying to assemble stuff from random forum posts
839 2013-09-24 14:59:09 <sipa> meh
840 2013-09-24 14:59:43 <sipa> the consensus of full nodes decides what the hard network rules are; the block chain limit is how they restrict their own resource usage
841 2013-09-24 14:59:43 <petertodd> jgarzik: ...and sadly I've been trying to figure out how to make the security of such a scheme as good as bitcoin, and I just can't :(
842 2013-09-24 14:59:45 <TD> jgarzik: bitcoin itself is a "future scheme" that involves some non-trivial amount of hand waving :) <or at least did when it started>
843 2013-09-24 14:59:55 <TD> i mean as seen by the rest of the world
844 2013-09-24 15:00:12 <TD> jgarzik: FAQ on the payment protocol: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=300809.new#new
845 2013-09-24 15:00:21 <Neozonz> Could someone help me understand -> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
846 2013-09-24 15:00:25 <helo> with partial/pruned nodes, full nodes don't have to bear the burden of a big blockchain
847 2013-09-24 15:00:26 <sipa> choosing a larger block size is perfectly fine, and should be done - up to the point where the network supports it, which is something that is up to full nodes to decide, as it literally means them voting themself out of the electorate
848 2013-09-24 15:00:32 <Neozonz> the header, are all values hex?
849 2013-09-24 15:00:34 <jgarzik> TD, nice, thanks
850 2013-09-24 15:00:42 <petertodd> jgarzik: fundemental problem: if data is distributed among n nodes in m shares, makes it easier to take down/take over n/m nodes to destory part of the system - likely a rule of nature :(
851 2013-09-24 15:00:52 <Neozonz> "The header is built from the six fields described above, concatenated together as little-endian values in hex notation"
852 2013-09-24 15:01:02 <Neozonz> does this include nonce as well?
853 2013-09-24 15:01:10 <petertodd> sipa: indeed, which is why I'm solidly for jdillon's voting proposal - make blocksize voting explicit and automatic
854 2013-09-24 15:01:22 <sipa> petertodd: who votes in that scheme?
855 2013-09-24 15:01:43 <petertodd> sipa: voting is counted by coin days basically, so it's an economic majority
856 2013-09-24 15:01:47 <sipa> (i may have read it, but i've read to much already)
857 2013-09-24 15:01:51 <gmaxwell> If a vote uses the blockchainâ then its really miners voting.
858 2013-09-24 15:01:58 <gmaxwell> because they can deny votes they don't like.
859 2013-09-24 15:02:07 <jgarzik> My non-technical opinion on block size: it should be increased, when fees become "too high" and start pushing most out of the system
860 2013-09-24 15:02:18 <sipa> jgarzik: i disagree completely there
861 2013-09-24 15:02:18 <jgarzik> But I could be wrong about that, even, depending on what systems arise.
862 2013-09-24 15:02:25 BenderCoin has joined
863 2013-09-24 15:02:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: jdillon's scheme cleverly avoids that by requiring miners to prove an economic majority to *increase* the blocksize, knowing that miners can always choose to decrease it
864 2013-09-24 15:02:31 <sipa> jgarzik: the only reason to increase the blocksize, is because we can
865 2013-09-24 15:02:45 <gmaxwell> petertodd: oh I remember that, sorry for being a bird brain.
866 2013-09-24 15:02:55 Gnaf has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130814063812])
867 2013-09-24 15:03:02 <jgarzik> It is important to avoid a perpetual state of no-competition, WRT block size.
868 2013-09-24 15:03:09 <jgarzik> no competition means no feedback
869 2013-09-24 15:03:12 <sipa> jgarzik: using "there is pressure for more transactions" as an argument in favor of increasing, is a slippery slope (sorry...) that means you're making a compromise already
870 2013-09-24 15:03:36 <sipa> the pressure will come by itself
871 2013-09-24 15:03:44 <sipa> (mastercoin?)
872 2013-09-24 15:03:52 <petertodd> jgarzik: well, I think in practice jdillon's scheme would lead to people perpetually voting up the blocksize, but at least if that happens the economic majority walked into the situation willingly
873 2013-09-24 15:03:55 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I think I've been holding the view that two things are required. Competition and sustainability. E.g. that there be pressure and "computers" can keep up.
874 2013-09-24 15:04:06 <jgarzik> +1
875 2013-09-24 15:04:33 <sipa> well, sure, if the sustainability is preserved, there is no problem
876 2013-09-24 15:04:33 <gmaxwell> but it's easy to go down the path of feverishly waving arms on any of this.
877 2013-09-24 15:04:37 Subo1977 has joined
878 2013-09-24 15:04:52 <petertodd> well, computers aren't going to keep up, that's just life. Moores law can't make atoms smaller.
879 2013-09-24 15:05:04 michagogo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
880 2013-09-24 15:05:19 <jgarzik> For the moment: 1) no immediate need to increase block size today, 2) even if we reach 1MB consistently, not sure there is a need.
881 2013-09-24 15:05:29 <jgarzik> mastercoin will handle itself, if there is competition.
882 2013-09-24 15:05:31 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
883 2013-09-24 15:05:57 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I dunno, my laptop can do 48k ECDSA verifies per second. The earths population only holds so many people. The computer s-curve could end far after the population and economic activity one does.
884 2013-09-24 15:06:07 <gmaxwell> so I think it's unclear what the future holds.
885 2013-09-24 15:06:17 <runeks> I remember doing some calculations on storage costs. And if they continue to decrease like they have for the past decades then in 20 years it won't be a problem.
886 2013-09-24 15:06:27 <sipa> yes, we don't even know what kind of transactions bitcoin will be used for
887 2013-09-24 15:06:31 michagogo has joined
888 2013-09-24 15:06:33 <gmaxwell> runeks: you can't just assume that, sadly.
889 2013-09-24 15:06:38 <TD> storage is even misleadingly expensive, because the block chain isn't a random access structure
890 2013-09-24 15:06:40 <sipa> it could be many small-values ones, or few high-value ones
891 2013-09-24 15:06:50 <sipa> TD: the UTXO set is, though
892 2013-09-24 15:06:52 <TD> it's a long append-only structure which occasionally gets streamed to new nodes that are getting set up
893 2013-09-24 15:06:52 <TD> sure
894 2013-09-24 15:06:56 <sipa> and today, it is tiny
895 2013-09-24 15:06:57 <gmaxwell> TD: utxo set is though, and I thought you complained that I was focusing too much on that? :P
896 2013-09-24 15:07:08 <runeks> gmaxwell: I can't assume storage will get cheaper?
897 2013-09-24 15:07:12 <TD> but i mean when we're doing calculations like 50 years into the future, or whatever, storage of the chain dominates the size of the utxo set
898 2013-09-24 15:07:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Problem is to handle the worlds transactions we need many more orders of magnitude already, which we're unlikely to get with moores law even now - that's how close the end is.
899 2013-09-24 15:07:21 <TD> and it's not even really "the entire utxo set" that matters. it's the hot part.
900 2013-09-24 15:07:26 <sipa> TD: i'm very unconvinced about that
901 2013-09-24 15:07:27 <gmaxwell> runeks: you cannot.
902 2013-09-24 15:07:32 <TD> though whether you can usefully optimise based on that, unclear
903 2013-09-24 15:07:47 <sipa> TD: if you optimize for the hot part, you're exposing yourself to a DoS attack by someone using the cold part
904 2013-09-24 15:07:53 <sipa> TD: which doesn't mean you can't optimize
905 2013-09-24 15:08:03 <sipa> TD: but you need to take the worst-case scenario into account
906 2013-09-24 15:08:03 <petertodd> runeks: what's remarkable about transistors and storage is how we've gotten to the point where *existing* structures are measured in dozens of atoms wide
907 2013-09-24 15:08:23 <TD> gmaxwell: for archival storage of the chain and streaming to new nodes, you can use tape
908 2013-09-24 15:08:27 <gmaxwell> runeks: you can for some time, and then you run into physical limits that can't be surpassed. If nothing else there is only so much information density in a limited volume permitted by physical law as we know it. It doesn't take very many doublings to run headlong into that.
909 2013-09-24 15:08:27 <TD> which is absurdly high capacity and cheap
910 2013-09-24 15:08:30 <TD> (but not random access)
911 2013-09-24 15:08:39 <petertodd> sipa: you can however change the economics so that "hot" and "cold" are explicit and you have to pay to move one to the other
912 2013-09-24 15:08:44 <sipa> petertodd: agreew
913 2013-09-24 15:08:46 <helo> a couple natural/economic disasters could make storage much more expensive :/
914 2013-09-24 15:08:58 <petertodd> sipa: that's part of the report I'm going to be writing for litecoin actually
915 2013-09-24 15:09:03 <runeks> gmaxwell: I'm always skeptical of any "physical limits". Not that I don't think they exist, just that I don't think we know what they are.
916 2013-09-24 15:09:07 <gmaxwell> helo: Like a flood in Thailand?
917 2013-09-24 15:09:23 <jgarzik> tape? tape???
918 2013-09-24 15:09:31 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
919 2013-09-24 15:09:32 <jgarzik> That's a 1960s tech.
920 2013-09-24 15:09:35 <runeks> I can see that the speed of decrease in storage cost has decreased over the past decade compared to the previous decade. But it's still substantial.
921 2013-09-24 15:09:39 hpnea has joined
922 2013-09-24 15:09:42 <gmaxwell> runeks: we might not, but you'd be a madman to project straight through what we _think_ they are. I mean, you can justify anything with that kind of logic.
923 2013-09-24 15:09:43 <petertodd> runeks: until we find new ones we should assume the ones we already know of are the ones that exist - moores law is completely unprecidented in human history - *nothing* has scaled liek it
924 2013-09-24 15:09:52 <sipa> jgarzik: it's still the cheapest per byte storage, afaik
925 2013-09-24 15:10:00 <TD> hahaha
926 2013-09-24 15:10:05 <TD> we back up all of gmail onto tape
927 2013-09-24 15:10:08 <TD> along with lots of other things
928 2013-09-24 15:10:11 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
929 2013-09-24 15:10:15 <TD> it's very much a 21st century technology, especially in the "cloud era"
930 2013-09-24 15:10:19 <gmaxwell> it's sort of dying even in enterprise. E.g. I think only oracle makes hardware for tapes with >2 TB capacity now.
931 2013-09-24 15:10:34 <jgarzik> Never underestimate the bandwidth of an SUV full of MicroSD cards: http://tidbitsfortechs.blogspot.com/2013/09/never-underestimate-bandwidth-of.html
932 2013-09-24 15:10:39 <runeks> petertodd, gmaxwell: So what are the limits of information density that we think are the limits right now? And how close are we to them?
933 2013-09-24 15:10:43 <TD> i'm pretty sure all the large datacenter operators back data up onto magnetic tape
934 2013-09-24 15:10:45 <petertodd> anyway talking about tape entirely misses my point about resistance to regulation, which requires much better scaling
935 2013-09-24 15:11:11 <helo> runeks: i think everyone agrees that linear storage growth is sustainable
936 2013-09-24 15:11:13 <gmaxwell> petertodd: or just being a decenteralized system requires that joining it is "inexpensive" ... loading tapes doesn't sound inexpensive. :P
937 2013-09-24 15:11:52 <TD> you can buy tape robots that do it automatically. but that would only be relevant in a world where you didn't want to use hard disks
938 2013-09-24 15:11:55 <petertodd> runeks: We know that storage with a density of more than a bit per dozen atoms is going to require brand new approaches. (to over-generalize)
939 2013-09-24 15:12:12 <jgarzik> One possible end-state of bitcoin is simply valuable time-stamping for other chains and layered currencies.
940 2013-09-24 15:12:21 <jgarzik> and 1MB limit could probably remain, for that
941 2013-09-24 15:12:31 <runeks> petertodd: How many bits per atom does flash/rotation HDDs use?
942 2013-09-24 15:12:46 <petertodd> Anyway, focusing on storage of the blockchain is kinda silly, because in reality people will just stop verifying old history and rely on UTXO commitment proofs...
943 2013-09-24 15:13:56 <Scrat> runeks: current magnetic media is something like 50k atoms per bit
944 2013-09-24 15:14:35 <runeks> Scrat: So if we still can decrease storage costs by a factor of 1000, is storage space a problem for Bitcoin?
945 2013-09-24 15:14:38 <gmaxwell> helo: I don't think we do. I mean, you can increase volume.. but I think phyics only allows about a 10^31 bits per liter, and thats not including any access technology and it assumes your storage a 1 billion degree temp plasma.
946 2013-09-24 15:15:35 CryptoBuck has joined
947 2013-09-24 15:15:36 <gmaxwell> s/storage a/storage is a/
948 2013-09-24 15:15:37 <petertodd> runeks: quite likely yes, as to scale to world transactions we need another three more orders of magnitude, and that's ignoring network bandwidth
949 2013-09-24 15:15:50 <helo> gmaxwell: without assuming linear growth is ok, isn't bitcoin doomed?
950 2013-09-24 15:15:54 <Scrat> runeks: unfortunately network speed doesnt increase nearly as much
951 2013-09-24 15:15:56 <gmaxwell> It takes less than two dozen additional doublings to get to that storage density... but then even linear growth is not permitted by physics.
952 2013-09-24 15:16:10 <runeks> petertodd: And how long do you think before Bitcoin is used for all of the worlds transactions?
953 2013-09-24 15:16:14 <gmaxwell> helo: no because the growth could end far past what we could ever use.
954 2013-09-24 15:16:16 <runeks> Scrat: True.
955 2013-09-24 15:16:22 <sipa> runeks: i don't think that will ever happen
956 2013-09-24 15:16:22 CryptoBuck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
957 2013-09-24 15:16:28 <petertodd> runeks: Mainly I'm saying that's just not going to happen!
958 2013-09-24 15:16:40 CryptoBuck has joined
959 2013-09-24 15:16:49 <petertodd> runeks: People who assume transactions will always be "near-free" are crazy basically.
960 2013-09-24 15:17:01 <gmaxwell> All the worlds transactions in the bitcoin currency or on the bitcoin payment network? They're different questions.
961 2013-09-24 15:17:16 <sipa> depends what the on-chain bitcoin transactions will be used for
962 2013-09-24 15:17:24 <gmaxwell> The later seems entirely implausable for many reasons, including the bitcoin payment network is not well fit to many kinds of transactions regardless of scale.
963 2013-09-24 15:17:25 CryptoBuck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
964 2013-09-24 15:17:37 <runeks> petertodd: My point is that *if* Bitcoin one day does 10k TPS, it will take several decades. And storage costs in several decades will undoubtedly be a lot lower than it is today.
965 2013-09-24 15:17:42 CryptoBuck has joined
966 2013-09-24 15:17:45 <Neozonz> anyone familiar with eloipool's code?
967 2013-09-24 15:17:49 <petertodd> sipa: IE in my conversation with that investor yesterday, he, without knowing any of the tech, actually assumed that Bitcoin would be a reserve currency already and there would be layers on top.
968 2013-09-24 15:17:50 <hpnea> not sure if it's ok to ask that here: i'm using node.js with bitcoin module to manage an off the chain gambling website where people have balances, i have two questions about that: 1) is it ok to store the balance in the postgresql database, and update the balance after each win/loss of a player? 2) why does btcclient.getNewAddress(); return "undefined"?
969 2013-09-24 15:17:51 <sipa> if they're only used for cheap transactions, with little security, they may well remain near-free
970 2013-09-24 15:18:06 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=300809.0 "A better way would be if you gave your employer 100 addresses, and they could then pay you with 100 transactions that re-allocate small numbers of coffee payments to your keys. Then the linkage would be much smaller. But in practice nobody does this."
971 2013-09-24 15:18:06 <sipa> petertodd: of course there will be layers on top; there already are!
972 2013-09-24 15:18:09 <jgarzik> FSVO "better"
973 2013-09-24 15:18:31 <petertodd> runeks: several decades? shit, no-one can predict the economic future that far ahead :)
974 2013-09-24 15:18:32 CryptoBuck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
975 2013-09-24 15:18:40 <runeks> petertodd: Exactly.
976 2013-09-24 15:18:46 CryptoBuck has joined
977 2013-09-24 15:18:49 <petertodd> sipa: yup
978 2013-09-24 15:18:55 <jgarzik> mostly don't think past the next financial quarter ;p
979 2013-09-24 15:19:50 <petertodd> runeks: but, as I keep saying, all this implies that we should take what we know - bitcoin transactions have a cost and that cost is likely to go up in the future if bitcoin becomes more popular - and apply it to what we can do now, which is make that less of a problem by making off-chain more usable and more secure
980 2013-09-24 15:20:14 <petertodd> runeks: fortunately I haven't needed to do much work on that personally due to the plethora of off-chain stuff that's popped up lately :)
981 2013-09-24 15:21:50 <petertodd> the other half of it is making sure people can deal with fees sanely, hence transaction replacement to make the fee bidding process work, and better tools to estimate fees
982 2013-09-24 15:22:03 <runeks> Nothing wrong with making off-chain txs more secure. That's usable in any case. I'm still talking about the block size limit though. Do we increase it or not?
983 2013-09-24 15:22:16 <jgarzik> "not right now"
984 2013-09-24 15:22:18 <gmaxwell> runeks: Have you stopped beating your wife?
985 2013-09-24 15:22:20 <runeks> That's very useful too.
986 2013-09-24 15:22:21 <petertodd> runeks: what jgarzik said
987 2013-09-24 15:22:22 <jgarzik> is the only sure answer
988 2013-09-24 15:22:46 <petertodd> runeks: the better the other solutions work, the longer we can push that decision to the future
989 2013-09-24 15:23:00 <petertodd> runeks: and when it becomes intollerable, it's a change that *can* be made quickly
990 2013-09-24 15:23:10 <petertodd> runeks: which is even less of a reason to do is soon!
991 2013-09-24 15:23:41 ticean has joined
992 2013-09-24 15:23:48 <runeks> petertodd: Right. I agree that it's not necessary now. And even this talk of "should *we* increase the limit" is sort of missing the point, because we don't decide. The users and miners do.
993 2013-09-24 15:24:06 <sipa> s/and miners//
994 2013-09-24 15:24:17 <gmaxwell> s/and miners//
995 2013-09-24 15:24:28 <gmaxwell> Miners only matter to the extent that they're also users.
996 2013-09-24 15:24:30 <sipa> (miners decide in so far that they are also users, but they're not privileged for this kind of decision)
997 2013-09-24 15:24:30 <gmaxwell> (for this)
998 2013-09-24 15:24:31 <petertodd> runeks: No, miners increasingly are who would make the decicion in practice because everyone's using SPV nodes.
999 2013-09-24 15:24:35 <sipa> !hi5 gmaxwell
1000 2013-09-24 15:24:35 <gribble> Error: "hi5" is not a valid command.
1001 2013-09-24 15:25:05 <petertodd> runeks: hence why I proposed "partial-utxo" set mode to allow more people to not be SPV users...
1002 2013-09-24 15:25:21 <runeks> petertodd: Even as a user of an SPV node I decide which chain I want to use.
1003 2013-09-24 15:25:33 <petertodd> runeks: That's very indirect.
1004 2013-09-24 15:25:45 <helo> without downloading every block, you can't vote on which blocks are too big
1005 2013-09-24 15:25:49 <sipa> runeks: once you allow trust in the equation, things change radically
1006 2013-09-24 15:25:55 DougieBot5000 has joined
1007 2013-09-24 15:25:59 <petertodd> Anyway, the long-term viability of the SPV approach is very uncertain at this poitn.
1008 2013-09-24 15:26:09 <gmaxwell> runeks: at least right now SPV users can't tell if a block is too big or not.
1009 2013-09-24 15:26:22 <sipa> they also don't care
1010 2013-09-24 15:26:30 <runeks> If there are two chains, one with a 1 MB block limit and one with a 100 MB block limit, and fees are lower on the 100 MB block limit chain, I might - as an SPV user - choose to use the latter chain/coin to send transactions. No reason they can't coexist. Miners will move to whichever chain makes them the most money.
1011 2013-09-24 15:26:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Well, they could do it statisticly by sampling.
1012 2013-09-24 15:26:43 <sipa> runeks: you mean altcoin?
1013 2013-09-24 15:26:45 <gmaxwell> "No reason they can't coexist"
1014 2013-09-24 15:26:46 <petertodd> runeks: As I said, indirectly.
1015 2013-09-24 15:26:55 <gmaxwell> can we have a channel which is free of clueless people for once, geesh
1016 2013-09-24 15:27:17 * gmaxwell gives up and refuses to be trolled any longer
1017 2013-09-24 15:27:22 agnostic98 has joined
1018 2013-09-24 15:27:29 <runeks> sipa: Two chain with different block size limits become alternative cryptocurrencies if a block is included that is above the size of the low block size limit-chain.
1019 2013-09-24 15:27:38 <petertodd> What's really unknown re: SPV is how will SPV users pay for the resources required to run the full nodes they connect too, and many of the possible solutions are ugly, like selling financial information.
1020 2013-09-24 15:27:45 <sipa> runeks: you're talking about an unintentional hardfork
1021 2013-09-24 15:27:53 <sipa> runeks: that's economic suicide for the system
1022 2013-09-24 15:28:05 <sipa> as it means the property that every coin can only be spent once is lost
1023 2013-09-24 15:28:10 <gmaxwell> "double spend all the coins!"
1024 2013-09-24 15:28:12 <runeks> sipa: No it could be intentional: Someone starting a chain that includes blocks over 1 MB.
1025 2013-09-24 15:28:23 <sipa> runeks: sure, but that's just a separate cryptocurrency
1026 2013-09-24 15:28:29 <runeks> sipa: Right.
1027 2013-09-24 15:28:31 <sipa> it holds no relation with bitcoin anymore
1028 2013-09-24 15:28:35 hpnea has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1029 2013-09-24 15:28:37 <TD> sipa: are you going to amsterdam?
1030 2013-09-24 15:28:39 <sipa> TD: no
1031 2013-09-24 15:28:50 <TD> oh, too bad
1032 2013-09-24 15:29:13 <gmaxwell> Sort of interesting that in all the multitude of crazy altchainsâ replete with ill advised modificationsâ, none of them appear to have removed the block size limit.
1033 2013-09-24 15:29:19 <runeks> sipa: That's really up for the users to decide. I mean, whether we call it "Bitcoin" or not isn't that important.
1034 2013-09-24 15:29:24 <sipa> runeks: agree
1035 2013-09-24 15:29:25 <helo> widespread distrust of cryptocurrencies after the first Big One collapses under its own weight could prevent competition between altcoins from being a viable path forward
1036 2013-09-24 15:29:30 <sipa> runeks: but you need to identify chains
1037 2013-09-24 15:29:38 <gmaxwell> helo: I believe that to be the case.
1038 2013-09-24 15:29:46 <sipa> runeks: and an unintentional split means nobody has a chance to decide which is which
1039 2013-09-24 15:29:53 <gmaxwell> helo: that if bitcoin fails badily it salts the earth for the general idea for a generation to come.
1040 2013-09-24 15:29:57 <sipa> if it is intentional, sure, but then it's just an altcoin
1041 2013-09-24 15:30:24 <runeks> sipa: Sure they do. Whichever chain builds off a block with a size larger than Bitcoin's 1 MB limit is the other chain. Bitcoin would ignore it.
1042 2013-09-24 15:30:48 <sipa> runeks: but SPV clients can't distinguish them
1043 2013-09-24 15:30:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Bitcoin is also the only chain where fees are even beginning to matter aside from anti-spam.
1044 2013-09-24 15:31:28 <TD> offtopic but .... wow: http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/08/26-years-of-growth-shanghai-then-and-now/100569/
1045 2013-09-24 15:31:45 <runeks> sipa: Fair point.
1046 2013-09-24 15:31:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: altcoins change all sorts of stuff that doesn't matter.
1047 2013-09-24 15:32:09 <gmaxwell> They change it for marketing reasons, or because thats the flavor of crack they smoked the morning of release.
1048 2013-09-24 15:32:31 <gmaxwell> Infinity times more scalable than bitcoin would be good marketing no? :P
1049 2013-09-24 15:32:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Point is, because fees aren't yet an issue, infinity times more scalable isn't as good a marketting point as it sounds.
1050 2013-09-24 15:33:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: also, alt-coins start by getting interest from miners, not users, and miners don't want large blocks...
1051 2013-09-24 15:38:03 t7 has quit (Quit: home)
1052 2013-09-24 15:41:31 justusranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1053 2013-09-24 15:42:28 <Scrat> LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch
1054 2013-09-24 15:42:32 <Scrat> is it resync time?
1055 2013-09-24 15:42:38 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1056 2013-09-24 15:42:59 <michagogo> re: Why does the sender submit transactions directly to the recipient? in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=300809.new#new: Did I miss the part of BIP70 that included a "send to me but don't broadcast" flag?
1057 2013-09-24 15:43:03 <gmaxwell> Scrat: yup. Did you do anything interesting that triggered it?
1058 2013-09-24 15:44:12 <Scrat> gmaxwell: nah, I did see some segfaults tho. no dodgy stuff in smart data as far as i can tell (this is on a server)
1059 2013-09-24 15:44:33 <gmaxwell> segfaults? hm. Any idea what triggered that?
1060 2013-09-24 15:46:17 <Scrat> no idea
1061 2013-09-24 15:46:25 * Scrat note to self: dont buy servers without ECC ram
1062 2013-09-24 15:46:25 justusranvier has joined
1063 2013-09-24 15:46:58 <Scrat> s/buy/rent/
1064 2013-09-24 15:51:53 bmcgee has joined
1065 2013-09-24 15:52:17 <michagogo> Okay, so `make-base-vm --lxc --arch i386` should finish any minute now
1066 2013-09-24 15:52:46 <michagogo> And hopefully, now that I changed the address range Virtualbox assigns it, it should work...
1067 2013-09-24 15:53:17 <bmcgee> Hey guys. I know that you can get a block's data in json form from bitcoind. Is it possible to get the raw bytes, as they were submitted instead?
1068 2013-09-24 15:53:42 <michagogo> yes
1069 2013-09-24 15:53:51 <michagogo> I don't remember exactly, though...
1070 2013-09-24 15:53:53 * michagogo looks
1071 2013-09-24 15:54:20 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
1072 2013-09-24 15:54:35 Belxjander has joined
1073 2013-09-24 15:56:32 dust-otc has joined
1074 2013-09-24 15:56:46 <michagogo> bmcgee: getblock <hash> false
1075 2013-09-24 15:56:56 <michagogo> But it's not in v0.8.5
1076 2013-09-24 15:57:07 <michagogo> You'll need to backport that
1077 2013-09-24 15:57:12 <bmcgee> ok thx
1078 2013-09-24 15:57:29 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1079 2013-09-24 16:01:03 <michagogo> Okay, `make-clean-vm --suite lucid --arch i386`
1080 2013-09-24 16:01:07 <michagogo> *please* work...
1081 2013-09-24 16:02:36 <michagogo> fffff
1082 2013-09-24 16:02:46 <michagogo> micha@Raring-Virtualbox-amd64:~/gitian-lxc/gitian-builder$ make-clean-vm --suite lucid --arch i386
1083 2013-09-24 16:02:46 <michagogo> lxc-start: No such file or directory - failed to get real path for '/home/micha/gitian-lxc/gitian-builder/target--'
1084 2013-09-24 16:02:46 <michagogo> lxc-start: failed to pin the container's rootfs
1085 2013-09-24 16:02:46 <michagogo> lxc-start: failed to spawn 'gitian'
1086 2013-09-24 16:02:49 <michagogo> -_-
1087 2013-09-24 16:03:59 <helo> is a vm better than just a chroot?
1088 2013-09-24 16:04:20 <helo> sure is a pita compared to a chroot, at least :/
1089 2013-09-24 16:04:27 datagutt has joined
1090 2013-09-24 16:04:58 <michagogo> helo: Well, this is me trying to figure out how to get gitian to work with LXC
1091 2013-09-24 16:05:05 <michagogo> Instead of a full VM with KVM
1092 2013-09-24 16:05:07 <sipa> lxc is hardlyy more than a chroot
1093 2013-09-24 16:05:18 gangplank has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1094 2013-09-24 16:05:18 darknyan has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1095 2013-09-24 16:05:33 <michagogo> I really have no idea how do get this to work :-/
1096 2013-09-24 16:05:36 <michagogo> how to*
1097 2013-09-24 16:05:51 <michagogo> Does anyone else have gitian working with LXC?
1098 2013-09-24 16:07:15 bizoro_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1099 2013-09-24 16:07:22 bmcgee has joined
1100 2013-09-24 16:08:12 <helo> oh, michagogo's using virtualbox because he doesn't have native linux to use lxc directly
1101 2013-09-24 16:08:13 gangplank has joined
1102 2013-09-24 16:08:26 <michagogo> helo: What?
1103 2013-09-24 16:08:54 <michagogo> helo: Right now, I have a working gitian setup on an Ubuntu installation on an external hard drive
1104 2013-09-24 16:08:58 bmcgee has quit (Client Quit)
1105 2013-09-24 16:09:02 <helo> i saw that you were using a vm, but i always assumed deterministic builds would be done with just a chroot, rather than requiring a full vm
1106 2013-09-24 16:09:19 <michagogo> helo: That setup is using kvm, so it does spawn an actual VM
1107 2013-09-24 16:09:40 darknyan has joined
1108 2013-09-24 16:10:27 <michagogo> Anyway, I was looking for a way to gitian-build without having to boot into that external hard drive
1109 2013-09-24 16:10:48 <michagogo> (that is, while running Windows)
1110 2013-09-24 16:11:03 HaltingState has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1111 2013-09-24 16:12:12 <michagogo> I can't (don't want to) run KVM inside a VM, because KVM uses hardware virtualization, and trying to run it in a nested VM would make it painfully slow
1112 2013-09-24 16:12:15 <michagogo> (or so I'm told)
1113 2013-09-24 16:12:30 <michagogo> But LXC isn't a full-fledged VM, so it should be working
1114 2013-09-24 16:17:16 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1115 2013-09-24 16:21:23 <michagogo> .....
1116 2013-09-24 16:21:29 <michagogo> what created var/lxc.config?
1117 2013-09-24 16:22:10 <michagogo> creates*
1118 2013-09-24 16:23:05 HaltingState has joined
1119 2013-09-24 16:23:10 <sipa> gitian, i suppose
1120 2013-09-24 16:25:35 <michagogo> But what in gitian?
1121 2013-09-24 16:25:44 <melvster> TD: in the payment protocol, where do you store the 'identity' ... is it in the Subject Common Name (CN) or the Subject Alternative Name (SAN) or both?
1122 2013-09-24 16:25:51 <TD> CN i think
1123 2013-09-24 16:25:58 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1124 2013-09-24 16:26:04 <TD> i wrote that code ~a year ago
1125 2013-09-24 16:26:08 <TD> pretty sure it's CN
1126 2013-09-24 16:26:25 <melvster> TD: thanks ... cool ... and is the identity an URL or email address?
1127 2013-09-24 16:26:38 <melvster> i guess a URL makes sense
1128 2013-09-24 16:26:40 <TD> it can be any arbitrary string. it's up to the CA what they sign
1129 2013-09-24 16:26:45 <melvster> nice!
1130 2013-09-24 16:26:50 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1131 2013-09-24 16:26:52 <TD> you can have a CN of "Bob's Whisky Company" if you want
1132 2013-09-24 16:27:02 <TD> that's why it's called a "common name"
1133 2013-09-24 16:27:38 <melvster> TD: we have a group that have been working on identity on the web (Web ID) and also using X.509 for the last 5 years or so ... so it's interesting to me, seems like some excellent work you've done there
1134 2013-09-24 16:27:44 <TD> thanks
1135 2013-09-24 16:27:57 CheckDavid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1136 2013-09-24 16:28:00 <michagogo> sipa: It looks like, when running make-clean-vm, these lines are set, and reset to this if something changes:
1137 2013-09-24 16:28:01 johnsoft has joined
1138 2013-09-24 16:28:02 <michagogo> lxc.rootfs = /home/micha/gitian-lxc/gitian-builder/target--
1139 2013-09-24 16:28:02 <michagogo> lxc.arch =
1140 2013-09-24 16:28:09 <TD> gavin wrote most of the code. i just wrote the protobuf definitions and some code that verified the signed protos
1141 2013-09-24 16:28:43 <melvster> TD: we have about 100 people interested in this, and many of the ideas overlap ... I dont expect v1 would need any significant input, but it may be advantageous to compare notes for future versions ...
1142 2013-09-24 16:28:48 <michagogo> What I want to know, is what code generates those 2 lines
1143 2013-09-24 16:28:57 <TD> melvster: sure
1144 2013-09-24 16:29:02 <melvster> great! :)
1145 2013-09-24 16:29:08 <TD> melvster: yeah common name: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/qt/paymentrequestplus.cpp#L173
1146 2013-09-24 16:29:16 <melvster> ah cool
1147 2013-09-24 16:29:27 <TD> EV certs don't put the friendly name into the CN field
1148 2013-09-24 16:29:39 <TD> they have the domain name there and put the friendly name elsewhere. we don't currently support them unfortunately
1149 2013-09-24 16:29:47 <TD> it's "just code" to do so though
1150 2013-09-24 16:29:51 <melvster> sure
1151 2013-09-24 16:30:28 <TD> gmaxwell: still awake? any idea how much code it takes to verify a SCIP proof?
1152 2013-09-24 16:31:54 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1153 2013-09-24 16:32:43 CheckDavid has joined
1154 2013-09-24 16:36:09 <gmaxwell> TD: Depends on which snark scheme is in use. There are basically two different backend systems that Eli et. al. are using. One is secure in a random oracle model and produces larger proofs. The other requires a "common reference string" a trusted set of values, but is secure under simpler cryptographic assumptions. I don't know how big the validation code is for the random-oracle secure one, but the CRS one the validation is nothing but ...
1155 2013-09-24 16:36:16 <gmaxwell> ... a couple of pairing crypto pairing operations and multiplies. For an example of what it takes, see page 5 here: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/279.pdf right column
1156 2013-09-24 16:36:45 <gmaxwell> basically, if you're linking libpbc already its ~two dozen lines of code. (libpbc is somewhat large, and the paring computation is more complicated than ECC math)
1157 2013-09-24 16:37:06 <TD> i was thinking that for the trezor, which is very limited, rather than have it verify payment protocol cert chains etc all by itself, it might be able to just verify a SCIP proof that the verification was done correctly (and yielded the correct id string)
1158 2013-09-24 16:37:21 <TD> but obviously then it requires the full stack including libpbc
1159 2013-09-24 16:37:31 <TD> and it may be that it's faster/cheaper to just do all the parsing and verification on-device
1160 2013-09-24 16:39:35 <gmaxwell> the validation under the CRS model stuff is stupid fast, e.g. 10-20ms reasonable... but yea, non-trivial amount of code. Some of the external wallet stuff people have wanted to do would have sent the data via _audio_ and in those applications the space savings would be very important.
1161 2013-09-24 16:40:25 stalled has joined
1162 2013-09-24 16:40:34 <gmaxwell> I should find out what the random-oracle secure verifier looks like. I know the data is bigger (because it needs to carry a hashtree commitment) but the actual verifier might be simpler than the pairing based one.
1163 2013-09-24 16:40:49 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1164 2013-09-24 16:41:35 <gmaxwell> (most of the cryptographers are spending more time on the pairing based stuff because they don't like security that rests on random oracle, so there is a lot more detail in the papers... thus my unequal knoweldge)
1165 2013-09-24 16:42:02 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1166 2013-09-24 16:42:08 <TD> yeah
1167 2013-09-24 16:42:21 <TD> i guess the issue would be that the proving is still a bit too slow for that UX to be good
1168 2013-09-24 16:42:39 <gmaxwell> oh, .. yea. "details!"
1169 2013-09-24 16:42:40 <TD> (ignoring the fact that scip is "magic" and trezor developers would be reasonable if they refused to implement it)
1170 2013-09-24 16:43:19 <TD> hmm new paper on low power ECC on a cortex m0. they measure performance of their ECC implementation in microjoules: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/609.pdf
1171 2013-09-24 16:43:43 Gnaf has joined
1172 2013-09-24 16:44:15 Gnaf has quit (Changing host)
1173 2013-09-24 16:44:15 Gnaf has joined
1174 2013-09-24 16:46:41 <nsh> ;;market-sell 40000
1175 2013-09-24 16:46:41 <gribble> Error: "market-sell" is not a valid command.
1176 2013-09-24 16:50:31 jgarzik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1177 2013-09-24 16:51:25 <gmaxwell> TD: but yea, neat point that SCIP could be used for secure signing tokens.
1178 2013-09-24 16:51:47 <TD> i'm not sure if it has much benefit in the real world, but i guess it might one day
1179 2013-09-24 16:52:32 <gmaxwell> the proving being so slow would be the big barrier there.
1180 2013-09-24 16:53:06 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1181 2013-09-24 16:53:11 <TD> even if it was made much faster, you'd want to find a class of verification that the device is too weak to do itself but the main computer can easily do
1182 2013-09-24 16:53:17 johnsoft has joined
1183 2013-09-24 16:53:22 <TD> probably the little device will always be powerful enough to do what is wanted
1184 2013-09-24 16:53:22 <gmaxwell> But it kinda redeems this "delegation" idea. A lot of the research keeps talking about a usecase where you delegate to a cloud and then can trust they computed it right... and verification is much faster than running yourself.
1185 2013-09-24 16:53:36 <TD> yeah
1186 2013-09-24 16:53:46 <DiabloD3> so wait
1187 2013-09-24 16:53:46 <gmaxwell> And I mostly think this idea is dumb because the proving will probably always be >>2x slowdown... "so just use two cloud providers"
1188 2013-09-24 16:53:47 <TD> i think pc to cloud is interesting, but portable hardware token to pc is also useful
1189 2013-09-24 16:53:49 <DiabloD3> isnt that just what bitcoin does?
1190 2013-09-24 16:53:57 <TD> ah - one place it's useful
1191 2013-09-24 16:53:59 <gmaxwell> But the portable hardware case is perhaps more interesting.
1192 2013-09-24 16:54:16 <TD> my idea to make a "certificate" out of a SCIP proof that your ePassport is valid, with one of the public inputs being a public key (which is ignored but ends up a part of the proof anyway)
1193 2013-09-24 16:54:35 <TD> then the device is verifying some complicated computation that could have been done months ago by some random third party
1194 2013-09-24 16:54:50 <gmaxwell> TD: the other case for epassports is privacy. E.g. if I have to show you my passport then you learn all kinds of personal info I might not want you to know.
1195 2013-09-24 16:55:18 <TD> yeah, exactly. the idea is to derive a fresh "anonymous" identity that includes a public key based on your epassport data, but that isn't your epassport data
1196 2013-09-24 16:55:34 <TD> tada - anonymous yet bannable identities, that aren't bitcoin sacrifices
1197 2013-09-24 16:55:50 <TD> eli told me he'd consider looking at microcoding modular exponentiation to accelerate RSA verifications
1198 2013-09-24 16:55:54 <TD> (in tinyram)
1199 2013-09-24 16:56:36 rdymac has joined
1200 2013-09-24 16:58:25 <DiabloD3> TD: thats interesting
1201 2013-09-24 16:58:31 <DiabloD3> TD: can we use it for website logins?
1202 2013-09-24 16:58:57 msvb-lab has joined
1203 2013-09-24 16:59:07 <TD> it can be used for all sorts of things. anywhere you want an "identity" that ~everyone has (except crazy americans who never travel ;) and yet which is hard to sockpuppet
1204 2013-09-24 16:59:10 <TD> i mean it can be used in theory
1205 2013-09-24 16:59:15 <TD> nobody has ever implemented this idea, as far as i know
1206 2013-09-24 16:59:25 <TD> for instance it can resolve abuse issues with tor
1207 2013-09-24 16:59:49 <TD> although i personally prefer bitcoin sacrifices for that, because if your passport gets banned (even anonymously), how do you get a second chance? making you buy your way back in seems fairer
1208 2013-09-24 16:59:59 <TD> i'm more interested in e-voting schemes that use it
1209 2013-09-24 17:00:09 <gmaxwell> TD: even in the bitcoin sacrifice you might want to make it private though.
1210 2013-09-24 17:00:22 jedunnigan has joined
1211 2013-09-24 17:00:24 <gmaxwell> e.g. prove you made a sacrifice but don't learn anything about what coins are yours.
1212 2013-09-24 17:00:29 <TD> ah yes. good one.
1213 2013-09-24 17:00:33 _ingsoc has joined
1214 2013-09-24 17:00:49 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1215 2013-09-24 17:00:54 <gmaxwell> yea, making the format of sacrifices compact to facilitate this has been on my mind. our transaction format makes it kinda hard though. :(
1216 2013-09-24 17:01:22 <TD> well the provable program would verify the headers and the merkle branches, right
1217 2013-09-24 17:01:28 <TD> i'm not sure it needs any format changes (if using scip)
1218 2013-09-24 17:01:44 mintyFresh has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1219 2013-09-24 17:01:53 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1220 2013-09-24 17:02:04 MobPhone has joined
1221 2013-09-24 17:02:53 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
1222 2013-09-24 17:04:14 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1223 2013-09-24 17:06:35 pablog has quit (Quit: pablog)
1224 2013-09-24 17:07:40 [Author] has joined
1225 2013-09-24 17:08:38 rdymac has joined
1226 2013-09-24 17:09:12 justusranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1227 2013-09-24 17:09:13 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1228 2013-09-24 17:10:32 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1229 2013-09-24 17:10:59 johnsoft has joined
1230 2013-09-24 17:11:30 <gmaxwell> TD: no format changes, but doing SPV validation of a txn when you must check the inputs too (to get their values) is unfortunately large.
1231 2013-09-24 17:11:42 <TD> yes
1232 2013-09-24 17:12:13 agricocb has joined
1233 2013-09-24 17:12:16 agricocb has quit (Changing host)
1234 2013-09-24 17:12:16 agricocb has joined
1235 2013-09-24 17:13:10 justusranvier has joined
1236 2013-09-24 17:13:58 ticean has joined
1237 2013-09-24 17:15:29 bbrian has joined
1238 2013-09-24 17:15:52 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
1239 2013-09-24 17:16:23 djcoin has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
1240 2013-09-24 17:17:37 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1241 2013-09-24 17:21:57 Belxjander has joined
1242 2013-09-24 17:25:10 <helo> coinjoin sacrifices for people that want coin privacy?
1243 2013-09-24 17:25:32 Krellan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1244 2013-09-24 17:25:38 gcX46 has joined
1245 2013-09-24 17:25:46 _________ has joined
1246 2013-09-24 17:29:15 jgarzik has joined
1247 2013-09-24 17:29:15 jgarzik has quit (Changing host)
1248 2013-09-24 17:29:15 jgarzik has joined
1249 2013-09-24 17:33:29 darkee has joined
1250 2013-09-24 17:37:14 Optimo has joined
1251 2013-09-24 17:40:14 wei_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1252 2013-09-24 17:41:33 Gnaf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1253 2013-09-24 17:42:08 wei_ has joined
1254 2013-09-24 17:42:25 StarenseN has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1255 2013-09-24 17:44:57 sserrano44 has joined
1256 2013-09-24 17:45:30 Eiii has joined
1257 2013-09-24 17:49:22 santoscork has joined
1258 2013-09-24 17:56:02 daybyter has joined
1259 2013-09-24 17:58:14 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1260 2013-09-24 17:59:22 zeddan81 has joined
1261 2013-09-24 18:02:11 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
1262 2013-09-24 18:04:15 mappum has joined
1263 2013-09-24 18:05:13 datagutt has joined
1264 2013-09-24 18:07:09 rdymac has joined
1265 2013-09-24 18:11:09 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1266 2013-09-24 18:12:33 BTCOxygen has joined
1267 2013-09-24 18:13:14 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1268 2013-09-24 18:13:54 <cfields> warren: i'd have to see the actual link-line
1269 2013-09-24 18:15:37 <warren> cfields: sure, 1) how do I enable verbose output? 2) why is --disable-tests not working?
1270 2013-09-24 18:16:13 <cfields> make V=1
1271 2013-09-24 18:16:19 <warren> cfields: pre-autotools didn't build the tests by default
1272 2013-09-24 18:16:47 <warren> I suppose it's fine to build them by default now, but I'd like to turn them off for gitian win32 as it can't actually run the tests here.
1273 2013-09-24 18:16:51 <warren> and they arne't distributed
1274 2013-09-24 18:16:57 <cfields> because there were flips+twists involved in building them. those were removed.
1275 2013-09-24 18:17:07 rdymac has joined
1276 2013-09-24 18:17:12 <warren> distributing it would require distributing test data
1277 2013-09-24 18:17:19 <cfields> iirc it can run them fine
1278 2013-09-24 18:17:24 <cfields> test data is now compiled in
1279 2013-09-24 18:17:25 <warren> how?
1280 2013-09-24 18:17:34 <sipa> indeed
1281 2013-09-24 18:17:40 <warren> oh? ok, didn't know that
1282 2013-09-24 18:17:52 <warren> you mean win32 should distribute the test_bitcoin.exe?
1283 2013-09-24 18:18:12 <sipa> btw, is it intentional that 'make check' also builds bitcoind?
1284 2013-09-24 18:18:13 <cfields> i mean it should be available from gitian, so that someone can verify that the tests pass before it's released to the masses
1285 2013-09-24 18:19:00 <warren> --disable-tests being broken is a bug?
1286 2013-09-24 18:19:14 <cfields> warren: if they don't actually disable, then yes
1287 2013-09-24 18:19:21 <cfields> testing
1288 2013-09-24 18:19:33 <michagogo> sipa: I'm in a pm conversation with devrando1
1289 2013-09-24 18:19:38 <michagogo> Turns out, my setup is fine
1290 2013-09-24 18:19:57 <sipa> ok?
1291 2013-09-24 18:20:03 <michagogo> At some point he accepted a pull request that put bad instructions for the sanity-check into README...
1292 2013-09-24 18:20:13 <sipa> ha
1293 2013-09-24 18:20:53 <cfields> warren: --disable-tests worked fine here
1294 2013-09-24 18:21:08 <warren> devrando1: oh hey, is there a way to embed entire text files inside of a gitian .yml file?
1295 2013-09-24 18:21:12 <cfields> warren: you sure you put it in the actual configure, and not the one for 'make dist' ?
1296 2013-09-24 18:21:24 <warren> cfields: I put it into both configures
1297 2013-09-24 18:21:28 CheckDavid has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1298 2013-09-24 18:22:44 <cfields> sipa: as for your question, 'autoreconf -vif' should've gotten you up and going. not sure why it wouldn't
1299 2013-09-24 18:22:54 eoss has joined
1300 2013-09-24 18:22:56 <cfields> i've pushed the correct autogen.sh up. process is exactly like bitcoin.
1301 2013-09-24 18:23:17 <sipa> it complained about so
1302 2013-09-24 18:23:30 <sipa> ething libtool missing
1303 2013-09-24 18:23:32 <warren> devrando1: I'm working on upgrading boost for gitian win32 to fix <bug>, but upstream dev has refused to accept a patch that allows building it with a cross-compiler. So we need to include a small patch. It would be cleanest to inject the patch from the gitian.yml file itself.
1304 2013-09-24 18:23:55 alexwaters has joined
1305 2013-09-24 18:23:59 <cfields> sipa: if you started running automake/autoconf/etc manually, things get into a weird state. 'autoreconf' runs them in a very particular order
1306 2013-09-24 18:24:15 sacrelege has joined
1307 2013-09-24 18:24:32 <sipa> cfields: i tried autoreconf -vif first, and got an error
1308 2013-09-24 18:24:43 <sipa> i'll paste the.exact.error later
1309 2013-09-24 18:24:50 <cfields> warren: erm, why not use a patch or tarball-containing-patches as an input?
1310 2013-09-24 18:25:06 <gmaxwell> TD: I think you've misunderstood how fees work in bitcoin-qt
1311 2013-09-24 18:25:33 <gmaxwell> TD: bitcoin-qt isn't currently making fee decisions based on anything that isn't available to SPV clients.
1312 2013-09-24 18:25:46 <warren> cfields: yet another thing for people to get wrong
1313 2013-09-24 18:25:47 <gmaxwell> TD: it does not pay any attention to the mempool or the contents of blocks at all.
1314 2013-09-24 18:26:17 <cfields> sipa: as to why 'make check' builds bitcoind, that's a good question. I see the same, and i'm unsure why
1315 2013-09-24 18:26:29 <warren> Also, does anyone have objections to adding input tarball sha256sum checks to gitian?
1316 2013-09-24 18:29:12 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
1317 2013-09-24 18:33:02 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1318 2013-09-24 18:33:56 <warren> cfields: link line: http://pastebin.com/226pBqNY
1319 2013-09-24 18:36:00 <sipa> cfields: http://pastebin.com/ZZPfwuhL
1320 2013-09-24 18:37:22 <cfields> sipa: ah ok, 'make check' has 'all-am' as a dependency. No clue why, automake convention i suppose
1321 2013-09-24 18:37:37 <cfields> i guess most projects need everything built before building tests
1322 2013-09-24 18:37:39 <sipa> cfields: i suppose to verify that the full build is actually working
1323 2013-09-24 18:37:41 BTCOxygen has joined
1324 2013-09-24 18:37:45 <cfields> yea
1325 2013-09-24 18:38:00 <sipa> makes sense, but if i just want to quickly run tests again, it's sometimes annoying
1326 2013-09-24 18:38:21 <sipa> (though the difference is just calling the linker, so it doesn't actually matter)
1327 2013-09-24 18:38:31 <cfields> sipa: ah, well you can always just cd into src/tests and 'make check' there
1328 2013-09-24 18:38:37 <sipa> ah!
1329 2013-09-24 18:38:41 <sipa> makes sense
1330 2013-09-24 18:38:53 <cfields> it'll still rebuild the bitcoind sources and the archive, but it would skip linking it at least
1331 2013-09-24 18:39:24 <cfields> sipa: you have libtool installed on your dev box?
1332 2013-09-24 18:39:54 <warren> cfields: I spent hours yesterday fixing boost-1.54 ... they added some build regressions to 1.51+
1333 2013-09-24 18:40:08 <sipa> cfields: apparently not; i assumed i had everything as bitcoind builds fine on it
1334 2013-09-24 18:40:30 <sipa> but libtool is probably for librarier :)
1335 2013-09-24 18:41:04 <cfields> heh, yep. i assumed you had it installed, hard to build much without it
1336 2013-09-24 18:41:16 <cfields> but if it's a dedicated bitcoin dev machine i suppose that makes sense
1337 2013-09-24 18:41:24 Thepok has joined
1338 2013-09-24 18:41:40 <sipa> cfields: seems to work!
1339 2013-09-24 18:41:53 <sipa> cfields: it's just my VPS, not the usual system i develop on
1340 2013-09-24 18:42:03 <sipa> (currently at the airport, need to board; cya!)
1341 2013-09-24 18:42:14 <cfields> warren: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ijaGvgm9
1342 2013-09-24 18:42:17 <cfields> ah ok
1343 2013-09-24 18:42:19 <cfields> cya
1344 2013-09-24 18:43:45 <warren> cfields: any idea how it worked before this?
1345 2013-09-24 18:44:23 <cfields> warren: you're using a completely rewritten mingw. bound to be some bumps along the way.
1346 2013-09-24 18:44:37 <cfields> (no clue if that'll fix, just a guess based on googling)
1347 2013-09-24 18:44:52 <warren> oh wait, I do recall at some point g++ dropped implicit linking of some type
1348 2013-09-24 18:45:01 <warren> although I thought that was before 4.3
1349 2013-09-24 18:45:26 <cfields> hmm?
1350 2013-09-24 18:45:32 wiretapped has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1351 2013-09-24 18:46:21 <michagogo> Hmm
1352 2013-09-24 18:46:30 <michagogo> A few dependancy links seem to be bad
1353 2013-09-24 18:46:35 <michagogo> (dead)
1354 2013-09-24 18:47:25 <michagogo> wget 'http://releases.qt-project.org/qt4/source/qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.8.3.tar.gz'
1355 2013-09-24 18:47:25 <michagogo> gives you http://download.qt-project.org/
1356 2013-09-24 18:47:47 <warren> cfields: in one release of fedora we had to add more includes or fix some linking in makefiles as g++ change
1357 2013-09-24 18:47:56 * michagogo will try to find the files and PR
1358 2013-09-24 18:48:04 wiretapped has joined
1359 2013-09-24 18:49:06 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1360 2013-09-24 18:49:08 <cfields> warren: no clue
1361 2013-09-24 18:49:33 _________ has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1362 2013-09-24 18:49:43 <cfields> warren: ah, did you bump openssl ?
1363 2013-09-24 18:50:09 <warren> cfields: no
1364 2013-09-24 18:50:30 <warren> cfields: only thing I bumped was boost because you said the bug I ran into was fixed in 1.51
1365 2013-09-24 18:50:32 <helo> TD: thanks for writing that payment protocol faq!
1366 2013-09-24 18:51:52 <jgarzik> +1
1367 2013-09-24 18:56:30 <michagogo> Would upgrading zlib from 1.2.6 to 1.2.8 break determinism?
1368 2013-09-24 18:56:53 <michagogo> (that is, would builds with 1.2.6 be different than builds with 1.2.8?)
1369 2013-09-24 18:57:08 <cfields> if not, why bother upgrading? :)
1370 2013-09-24 18:57:21 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
1371 2013-09-24 18:57:30 <michagogo> because you can't wget zlib.net/zlib-1.2.6.tar.gz
1372 2013-09-24 18:58:20 <cfields> michagogo: heh, think about that question again. the answer answers yours.
1373 2013-09-24 18:58:27 <michagogo> what?
1374 2013-09-24 18:58:30 molec has joined
1375 2013-09-24 18:58:58 jMyles has joined
1376 2013-09-24 18:59:05 <michagogo> cfields: I'm not sure I understand
1377 2013-09-24 18:59:42 <michagogo> zlib-1.2.6.tar.gz is not available from zlib.net
1378 2013-09-24 19:00:04 <michagogo> It *is* available at http://sourceforge.net/projects/libpng/files/zlib/1.2.6/zlib-1.2.6.tar.gz/download
1379 2013-09-24 19:00:15 <michagogo> but that's not a direct download link, and so it's not wgettable
1380 2013-09-24 19:00:23 <michagogo> which breaks release-process.md
1381 2013-09-24 19:00:52 <warren> it doesn't matter where you get it from. It does matter that it's identical to what other people are expecting. not all the input checksums are recorded anywhere.
1382 2013-09-24 19:01:45 <michagogo> warren: I know it doesn't matter where you get it from
1383 2013-09-24 19:02:03 <michagogo> It's just that release-process tells you to wget it from a dead link
1384 2013-09-24 19:02:39 freewil has joined
1385 2013-09-24 19:08:03 jgarzik has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1386 2013-09-24 19:10:31 robocoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1387 2013-09-24 19:10:58 robocoin has joined
1388 2013-09-24 19:14:02 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1389 2013-09-24 19:18:42 apurplehorse has joined
1390 2013-09-24 19:21:30 <warren> cfields: that added crypt32 to link line didn't fix it...
1391 2013-09-24 19:23:23 renhei has joined
1392 2013-09-24 19:23:41 <cfields> "didn't fix" ?
1393 2013-09-24 19:24:21 <warren> cfields: same error
1394 2013-09-24 19:24:40 <warren> /home/ubuntu/staging/lib/libcrypto.a(e_capi.o):e_capi.c:(.text+0x1ff): undefined reference to `__imp__CertFreeCertificateContext@4'
1395 2013-09-24 19:27:31 <cfields> please past the whole error so i can see if any more were resolved
1396 2013-09-24 19:27:34 <cfields> *paste
1397 2013-09-24 19:29:27 <renhei> how come btcclient.getNewAddress() returns undefined with bitcoin module of node.js?
1398 2013-09-24 19:29:33 michagogo has quit (Quit: goodnight)
1399 2013-09-24 19:30:12 sserrano44 has joined
1400 2013-09-24 19:30:16 * warren adds V=1 until this is working
1401 2013-09-24 19:33:43 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1402 2013-09-24 19:35:23 <phantomcircuit> so having a quick look at the payment protocol
1403 2013-09-24 19:35:30 <cfields> cory@cory-i7:/usr/i686-w64-mingw32/lib$ i686-w64-mingw32-nm -C libcrypt32.a | grep CertFreeCertificateContext
1404 2013-09-24 19:35:30 <cfields> 00000000 T CertFreeCertificateContext@4
1405 2013-09-24 19:35:30 <cfields> 00000000 I _imp__CertFreeCertificateContext@4
1406 2013-09-24 19:35:32 <cfields> it's there.
1407 2013-09-24 19:35:39 <phantomcircuit> i suspect that will significantly increase the size of the average users wallet by number of transactions
1408 2013-09-24 19:36:01 <warren> hm
1409 2013-09-24 19:36:02 <phantomcircuit> before a release that contains that stuff i'd suggest looking at my pull requests to improve wallet load times
1410 2013-09-24 19:36:12 <warren> cfields: http://pastebin.com/BdeBc6k9
1411 2013-09-24 19:36:21 <warren> cfields: it didn't actually link it
1412 2013-09-24 19:36:33 Neozonz has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
1413 2013-09-24 19:36:45 <warren> phantomcircuit: write to dev list
1414 2013-09-24 19:36:51 fpgaminer has joined
1415 2013-09-24 19:36:55 <phantomcircuit> warren, so much effort
1416 2013-09-24 19:36:58 <cfields> warren: config.log please
1417 2013-09-24 19:37:27 <warren> phantomcircuit: maybe someone will make a IRC to mail service that accepts bitcoin
1418 2013-09-24 19:37:35 <phantomcircuit> lol
1419 2013-09-24 19:37:54 <warren> phantomcircuit: using the payment protocol
1420 2013-09-24 19:38:01 freewil has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1421 2013-09-24 19:38:07 fpgaminer has quit (Client Quit)
1422 2013-09-24 19:38:44 roconnor has joined
1423 2013-09-24 19:40:05 <warren> cfields: I might have screwed up, trying a build again from scratch
1424 2013-09-24 19:41:26 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1425 2013-09-24 19:41:32 alexwaters has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1426 2013-09-24 19:44:39 ThomasV has joined
1427 2013-09-24 19:45:52 saulimus has joined
1428 2013-09-24 19:50:28 agricocb has joined
1429 2013-09-24 19:51:33 Guest7032 has joined
1430 2013-09-24 19:52:10 <warren> cfields: https://togami.com/~warren/temp/config.log
1431 2013-09-24 19:52:25 Guest7032 has left ()
1432 2013-09-24 19:53:05 agricocb has quit (Client Quit)
1433 2013-09-24 19:53:49 <cfields> it still didn't check. i suspect you're not building the right source.
1434 2013-09-24 19:54:33 <warren> cfields: I commited that to configure.ac, verified
1435 2013-09-24 19:55:12 <cfields> warren: then you didn't update to the correct hash. your change isn't in that build.
1436 2013-09-24 19:55:59 <warren> AH CRAP
1437 2013-09-24 19:56:28 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1438 2013-09-24 19:56:32 <warren> cfields: thanks...
1439 2013-09-24 19:56:35 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1440 2013-09-24 19:56:42 AusBitBank has joined
1441 2013-09-24 19:56:53 Neozonz has joined
1442 2013-09-24 19:57:47 nym has joined
1443 2013-09-24 19:57:57 <nym> heya
1444 2013-09-24 20:04:19 denisx has joined
1445 2013-09-24 20:06:39 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
1446 2013-09-24 20:06:57 coius has joined
1447 2013-09-24 20:06:59 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1448 2013-09-24 20:08:02 <sipa> phantomcircuit: ACK on doing wallet loading inprovements in 0.9
1449 2013-09-24 20:08:24 <phantomcircuit> sipa, you really read all of the scrollback???
1450 2013-09-24 20:08:26 <phantomcircuit> :)
1451 2013-09-24 20:08:32 <sipa> no
1452 2013-09-24 20:08:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: So it looks like there's something else wrong :-/
1453 2013-09-24 20:08:45 <sipa> oh
1454 2013-09-24 20:09:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I need to wake up early tomorrow though, so I can't continue figuring it out atm
1455 2013-09-24 20:09:22 <sipa> relax
1456 2013-09-24 20:10:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Also, I made a PR to change the URLs for a couple dependencies)
1457 2013-09-24 20:10:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(and add `git checkout v${VERSION}` as a step)
1458 2013-09-24 20:10:57 CheckDavid has joined
1459 2013-09-24 20:11:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anyway, g2g -- goodnight
1460 2013-09-24 20:14:05 Musk has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1461 2013-09-24 20:15:10 DougieBot5000 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1462 2013-09-24 20:15:27 rdymac has joined
1463 2013-09-24 20:16:12 ecoloco has joined
1464 2013-09-24 20:16:39 zeddan81 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1465 2013-09-24 20:16:47 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1466 2013-09-24 20:17:39 zeddan81 has joined
1467 2013-09-24 20:23:06 t7 has joined
1468 2013-09-24 20:23:24 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
1469 2013-09-24 20:27:22 ticean has joined
1470 2013-09-24 20:27:41 <denisx> sipa: what es the effect of 'Prune provably-unspendable outputs'?
1471 2013-09-24 20:27:57 <denisx> less memory use or smaller database or just faster execution?
1472 2013-09-24 20:28:04 <denisx> or less io?
1473 2013-09-24 20:30:24 renhei has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1474 2013-09-24 20:31:29 <sipa> less disk space
1475 2013-09-24 20:31:44 <sipa> abd for now, maybe just a few kB
1476 2013-09-24 20:34:06 <denisx> abd?
1477 2013-09-24 20:34:09 <sipa> and
1478 2013-09-24 20:36:07 <Luke-Jr> dizko: I think you can just not-close the connection.. and TIME_WAIT is the stage *after* FIN has been sent by both ends
1479 2013-09-24 20:37:21 agnostic98 has joined
1480 2013-09-24 20:38:39 <denisx> what is fastest way to recover from a corrupted leveldb failure?
1481 2013-09-24 20:38:57 <warren> cfields: first successful gitian build
1482 2013-09-24 20:39:07 <sipa> denisx: start with -reindex
1483 2013-09-24 20:41:39 <warren> wumpus: finally got precise-based mingw to build bitcoin. I had to bump boost to pull in newer bug fixes.
1484 2013-09-24 20:41:39 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1485 2013-09-24 20:41:48 zeddan81 has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
1486 2013-09-24 20:42:37 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1487 2013-09-24 20:44:00 zeddan81 has joined
1488 2013-09-24 20:44:17 handle_ is now known as handle
1489 2013-09-24 20:48:56 zeddan81 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1490 2013-09-24 20:49:12 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1491 2013-09-24 20:49:26 ThomasV has joined
1492 2013-09-24 20:49:28 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1493 2013-09-24 20:49:38 zeddan81 has joined
1494 2013-09-24 20:50:12 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1495 2013-09-24 20:51:11 darkee has joined
1496 2013-09-24 20:51:21 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1497 2013-09-24 20:52:14 KillYourTV has joined
1498 2013-09-24 20:57:56 DougieBot5000 has joined
1499 2013-09-24 20:59:04 agricocb has joined
1500 2013-09-24 20:59:37 <warren> cfields: wumpus: argh. bitcoin-qt.exe has a dynamic link to libgcc_s_sjlj-1.dll instead of everything static as it was previously.
1501 2013-09-24 21:03:08 Coincidental has joined
1502 2013-09-24 21:03:21 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
1503 2013-09-24 21:04:15 zeddan81 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1504 2013-09-24 21:05:02 zeddan81 has joined
1505 2013-09-24 21:05:02 a_meteor has joined
1506 2013-09-24 21:06:54 cads has joined
1507 2013-09-24 21:06:58 bbrian has joined
1508 2013-09-24 21:13:32 wiretapped has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1509 2013-09-24 21:13:44 wiretapped has joined
1510 2013-09-24 21:16:22 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1511 2013-09-24 21:19:17 bbrian has joined
1512 2013-09-24 21:19:47 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Did you ever make progress with a script for sweeping up idenitifying dust?
1513 2013-09-24 21:20:33 a has joined
1514 2013-09-24 21:20:57 a is now known as Guest23903
1515 2013-09-24 21:22:17 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1516 2013-09-24 21:23:35 d34th has quit (Quit: Deleted System32)
1517 2013-09-24 21:23:51 Guest23903 has quit (Client Quit)
1518 2013-09-24 21:25:03 d34th has joined
1519 2013-09-24 21:25:17 cccaaa has joined
1520 2013-09-24 21:26:43 cccaaa has quit (Client Quit)
1521 2013-09-24 21:31:22 CryptoBuck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1522 2013-09-24 21:32:21 CryptoBuck has joined
1523 2013-09-24 21:32:23 sserrano44 has joined
1524 2013-09-24 21:33:49 <wumpus> warren: argh indeed; I think there were -static placed strategically on the ld command line to prevent that from happening, but I'm not sure how that's handled post-autotools
1525 2013-09-24 21:35:03 gk_ has joined
1526 2013-09-24 21:35:08 <warren> wumpus: cfields told me to try -static-libgcc in LDFLAGS, trying now
1527 2013-09-24 21:35:25 gk_ has quit (Client Quit)
1528 2013-09-24 21:35:53 ler has joined
1529 2013-09-24 21:36:14 <warren> wumpus: Work in Progress, if you want me to clean anything up https://github.com/wtogami/bitcoin/commits/gitianwin32
1530 2013-09-24 21:36:40 ler has quit (Client Quit)
1531 2013-09-24 21:37:04 thatsupercoolguy has joined
1532 2013-09-24 21:37:19 elgrecoFL has quit (Excess Flood)
1533 2013-09-24 21:37:56 agnostic98 has joined
1534 2013-09-24 21:38:15 zeddan81 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1535 2013-09-24 21:38:25 elgrecoFL has joined
1536 2013-09-24 21:42:12 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1537 2013-09-24 21:43:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ecoloco has a spam output he wants to get rid of; seems like a good fit for your sweeping
1538 2013-09-24 21:43:42 thatsupercoolguy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1539 2013-09-24 21:44:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I've been talking to him.
1540 2013-09-24 21:44:38 <gmaxwell> really it should be swept with other spam outputs.
1541 2013-09-24 21:44:46 <Luke-Jr> exactly my thought
1542 2013-09-24 21:44:54 <gmaxwell> assuming its someone trying to deanonymize people its best if they get bad data.
1543 2013-09-24 21:46:36 <gmaxwell> petertodd was going to work on some python rpc script to go gobble up those things.. e.g. you give it a limit and it goes and finds all your coins under that limit and gives them away to some website that gathers them up.
1544 2013-09-24 21:48:07 nm_ has joined
1545 2013-09-24 21:48:30 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1546 2013-09-24 21:50:16 nm_ has quit (Client Quit)
1547 2013-09-24 21:51:49 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1548 2013-09-24 21:59:02 muhoo has joined
1549 2013-09-24 21:59:25 <muhoo> dear lazyIRC, is there an alternative lightweight client that'll run on linux that isn't fucked up like multibit?
1550 2013-09-24 21:59:46 <muhoo> i.e. that you can actually type into the fucking text boxes on a reliable basis?
1551 2013-09-24 21:59:51 reizuki__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1552 2013-09-24 22:05:16 jurov has quit (Quit: User accidentally the)
1553 2013-09-24 22:06:18 richcollins has joined
1554 2013-09-24 22:06:28 jurov has joined
1555 2013-09-24 22:10:24 <warren> cfields: now it complains about libstdc++-6.dll
1556 2013-09-24 22:10:45 <warren> cfields: I'll try the obvious thing, later, working on other things.
1557 2013-09-24 22:11:06 <warren> wumpus: ^ more problems
1558 2013-09-24 22:11:23 <warren> bbl
1559 2013-09-24 22:11:59 BTCOxygen has joined
1560 2013-09-24 22:11:59 BTCOxygen is now known as Guest69321
1561 2013-09-24 22:11:59 Guest69321 has quit (Killed (hobana.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
1562 2013-09-24 22:11:59 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen|BTCOxygen
1563 2013-09-24 22:14:49 apurplehorse has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1564 2013-09-24 22:20:20 MoALTz_ has joined
1565 2013-09-24 22:21:58 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1566 2013-09-24 22:22:59 bbrian has joined
1567 2013-09-24 22:23:28 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1568 2013-09-24 22:24:44 <longcat> how do you prove something is unspendable?
1569 2013-09-24 22:24:52 Heimdall has joined
1570 2013-09-24 22:25:59 <sipa> by reasoning about the script semantics
1571 2013-09-24 22:26:27 <sipa> if a script starts with OP_RETURN, it will always evaluate to false, regardless of the input data
1572 2013-09-24 22:26:49 <denisx> if I set my chckpoint manually to speed up reindexing, how old should it be?
1573 2013-09-24 22:27:17 <gmaxwell> uh. it's really easy to screw yourself up that way.
1574 2013-09-24 22:27:32 <longcat> are you on windows, denisx? I usually restore from a previous version if necessary.
1575 2013-09-24 22:27:39 <gmaxwell> I find it a little hard to believe that the difference in reindexing time would be greater than the cpu time to compile bitcoin.
1576 2013-09-24 22:27:46 <denisx> longcat: no, Iam on freebsd
1577 2013-09-24 22:27:59 <sipa> ;;blocks
1578 2013-09-24 22:28:00 <gribble> 259917
1579 2013-09-24 22:28:04 <sipa> we
1580 2013-09-24 22:28:14 <sipa> we're 10k blocks pas the last checkpoint
1581 2013-09-24 22:28:22 <denisx> gmaxwell: if flies to 250000 in 10min, but for the last 10k blocks it needs 2-3h
1582 2013-09-24 22:28:36 <denisx> it
1583 2013-09-24 22:28:49 <gmaxwell> denisx: 2-3 hour?!
1584 2013-09-24 22:28:55 <gmaxwell> are you doing this on a rpi?
1585 2013-09-24 22:28:56 <denisx> yes
1586 2013-09-24 22:28:59 <denisx> no
1587 2013-09-24 22:29:06 <denisx> dual i3
1588 2013-09-24 22:29:29 <denisx> with harddisks
1589 2013-09-24 22:30:24 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1590 2013-09-24 22:30:41 <gmaxwell> In any case, you can't just make any random block a checkpoint block. timestamps have to be monotonic around it.
1591 2013-09-24 22:31:03 <gmaxwell> I'm curious as to why ecdsa is so slow on your i3.
1592 2013-09-24 22:31:37 mE\Ta has joined
1593 2013-09-24 22:32:01 <sipa> 2-3h means something like 1ms per validation
1594 2013-09-24 22:32:07 melvster has joined
1595 2013-09-24 22:32:08 <denisx> is ecdas part of openssl?
1596 2013-09-24 22:32:10 <sipa> that
1597 2013-09-24 22:32:13 <denisx> is ecdsa part of openssl?
1598 2013-09-24 22:32:17 <sipa> that's not extremely slow
1599 2013-09-24 22:32:17 <sipa> yes
1600 2013-09-24 22:32:43 <sipa> denisx: is this 32-bit or 64-bit code?
1601 2013-09-24 22:32:48 <denisx> 64
1602 2013-09-24 22:33:15 <denisx> OpenSSL 0.9.8y 5 Feb 2013
1603 2013-09-24 22:33:22 <denisx> could openssl be the problem?
1604 2013-09-24 22:33:25 <sipa> nah
1605 2013-09-24 22:33:37 <sipa> i think gmaxwell is just used to fast machines :)
1606 2013-09-24 22:33:43 <gmaxwell> I am.
1607 2013-09-24 22:34:16 <gmaxwell> 1ms per is 1000 per second... and this is a dual core machine. Vs I think on my laptop it validates about 8000 per second (using 4 cores)
1608 2013-09-24 22:34:33 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1609 2013-09-24 22:34:33 <longcat> how do i test how fast mine is?
1610 2013-09-24 22:34:37 <gmaxwell> (and more like ~50k/sec using sipa's libsecp256k1 code)
1611 2013-09-24 22:34:39 <denisx> yes, my laptop is quad and my home desktop is a hexcore
1612 2013-09-24 22:34:44 <denisx> but my server only dual i3
1613 2013-09-24 22:35:17 mappum has joined
1614 2013-09-24 22:36:08 <gmaxwell> denisx: in any case, you first asked about your performance on that system days ago. Why are you reindexing again? (I'm just asking to make sure there isn't some other issue)
1615 2013-09-24 22:36:19 <denisx> gmaxwell: it crashed again
1616 2013-09-24 22:36:26 <sipa> crashed + corrupted?
1617 2013-09-24 22:36:31 <gmaxwell> crashing shouldn't result in needing to reindex.
1618 2013-09-24 22:36:34 <denisx> and corrupted the database again
1619 2013-09-24 22:36:41 <denisx> yes
1620 2013-09-24 22:37:01 <gmaxwell> I have crashed a node here literally thousands of times without producing corruption.
1621 2013-09-24 22:37:21 <gmaxwell> It would be interesting if both FreeBSD and OSX were fragile.
1622 2013-09-24 22:37:33 <denisx> gmaxwell: Iam running HEAD right now
1623 2013-09-24 22:38:00 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i have a bitcoind that's been killed every 1-10 minutes for the past almost 4 weeks that hasn't been corrupted
1624 2013-09-24 22:39:47 agnostic98 has joined
1625 2013-09-24 22:40:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: btw, leveldb 1.14 was released, but no relevant patches to us, afaict
1626 2013-09-24 22:40:22 <denisx> I had it running on freebsd since july 2011 with no problems
1627 2013-09-24 22:40:30 <denisx> started two month ago I think
1628 2013-09-24 22:40:54 <DiabloD3> hey guys
1629 2013-09-24 22:40:56 <sipa> so earlier 0.8 versions worked?
1630 2013-09-24 22:41:03 <gmaxwell> denisx: the software doesn't change on its own, so I doubt "two months" is the relevant metric, ... what did you upgrade from and to? :P
1631 2013-09-24 22:41:03 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, HELLO
1632 2013-09-24 22:41:05 <DiabloD3> does leveldb properly upgrade database file formats?
1633 2013-09-24 22:41:25 <sipa> DiabloD3: afaik the database format has never changed since we started using leveldb
1634 2013-09-24 22:41:32 <sipa> and yes
1635 2013-09-24 22:41:59 <denisx> gmaxwell: hmm, at some point I switched from 0.8.x to head
1636 2013-09-24 22:42:13 <Luke-Jr> why?
1637 2013-09-24 22:42:42 <denisx> cant remember
1638 2013-09-24 22:42:43 <gmaxwell> denisx: what does your corruption message look like exactly?
1639 2013-09-24 22:42:49 <denisx> mom
1640 2013-09-24 22:43:00 <gmaxwell> Go pull it out of the debug log and pastebin for us.
1641 2013-09-24 22:43:14 <sipa> the corruption message looks like your mom? :o
1642 2013-09-24 22:43:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I think it's short for "one moment" :P
1643 2013-09-24 22:43:30 <gmaxwell> "moment"
1644 2013-09-24 22:43:43 <gmaxwell> I also went through the same tought process.
1645 2013-09-24 22:43:52 <sipa> why do people assume i'm serious when i say something like this? :p
1646 2013-09-24 22:43:53 <phantomcircuit> sigh
1647 2013-09-24 22:43:56 <gmaxwell> thought*
1648 2013-09-24 22:43:59 <phantomcircuit> hs raid1 for ssds
1649 2013-09-24 22:44:04 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1650 2013-09-24 22:44:05 <phantomcircuit> why does anybody do that
1651 2013-09-24 22:44:07 <phantomcircuit> WHYYYY
1652 2013-09-24 22:44:10 <denisx> sipa: that meant "one moment"
1653 2013-09-24 22:44:33 <gmaxwell> sipa: because, a few times you have been! you now have the air of the "native-english-but-weirdly-missing-idioms"!
1654 2013-09-24 22:44:36 <sipa> hs?
1655 2013-09-24 22:44:53 <phantomcircuit> hw*
1656 2013-09-24 22:45:13 <gmaxwell> ohhh.. to make sure that you need to buy lots of extra controllers or you'll never see your data again!
1657 2013-09-24 22:45:17 <phantomcircuit> this is without a battery backup
1658 2013-09-24 22:45:23 <sipa> fail
1659 2013-09-24 22:45:33 <phantomcircuit> if it was a battery backup it would make sense
1660 2013-09-24 22:45:33 <denisx> LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch
1661 2013-09-24 22:45:37 <phantomcircuit> but this is just insane
1662 2013-09-24 22:45:43 <phantomcircuit> denisx, have you checked your hdds?
1663 2013-09-24 22:45:53 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1664 2013-09-24 22:45:53 <denisx> phantomcircuit: it runs on zfs
1665 2013-09-24 22:46:00 <phantomcircuit> oh
1666 2013-09-24 22:46:15 <gmaxwell> block checksum mismatch is a pretty clearcut error, I believe.
1667 2013-09-24 22:46:19 <phantomcircuit> sipa, leveldb doesn't use O_DIRECT does it?
1668 2013-09-24 22:46:32 <longcat> oh so you use zfs but dont use snapshots for the data where you can roll back to?
1669 2013-09-24 22:46:55 <denisx> longcat: you cant just simply make a snapshot of a running state
1670 2013-09-24 22:47:16 <gmaxwell> longcat: dude. his machine is mysteriously corrupting itself, "workaround it more" is probably not a great plan.
1671 2013-09-24 22:47:20 <denisx> I mean zfs can, but it would not help
1672 2013-09-24 22:47:20 <longcat> this is not mordor
1673 2013-09-24 22:47:53 <longcat> gmaxwell: <3 snapshots
1674 2013-09-24 22:48:00 apurplehorse has joined
1675 2013-09-24 22:48:21 <denisx> longcat: yes me too, but not for dynamic data which changes itself
1676 2013-09-24 22:49:09 <phantomcircuit> longcat, snapshots for leveldb wouldn't work very well since it's constantly merging and moving data
1677 2013-09-24 22:50:17 cads has joined
1678 2013-09-24 22:50:26 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1679 2013-09-24 22:50:26 <gmaxwell> so you're sure that it was 0.8.[?] that it was okay and non-failing on?
1680 2013-09-24 22:50:48 <longcat> i've restored snapshots, always worked fine for me.
1681 2013-09-24 22:50:58 <gmaxwell> longcat: you're not being helpful.
1682 2013-09-24 22:51:19 <longcat> I know... but I was responding to phantomcircuit's comment
1683 2013-09-24 22:51:55 <denisx> gmaxwell: Iam not really sure
1684 2013-09-24 22:52:01 <gmaxwell> Okay.
1685 2013-09-24 22:52:04 <denisx> but I have a core file
1686 2013-09-24 22:52:18 <Luke-Jr> a core file for a working instance? :p
1687 2013-09-24 22:53:44 <gmaxwell> denisx: okay, so 0.8.x working on freebsd without needing patches is a somewhat more recent event. This is perhaps weak evidence that your good operation before was pre-0.8
1688 2013-09-24 22:54:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: did pre-0.8.x ever work on BSD without patches? :o
1689 2013-09-24 22:54:28 <phantomcircuit> longcat, because leveldb is constantly moving data around if you snapshot you end up with much more data than you would expect
1690 2013-09-24 22:54:42 <denisx> http://pastie.org/8353084
1691 2013-09-24 22:54:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I thought it did.
1692 2013-09-24 22:55:03 <Luke-Jr> Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/libleveldb.so.1â¦done.
1693 2013-09-24 22:55:23 <gmaxwell> denisx: "bitcoin_old_leveldb" ?
1694 2013-09-24 22:55:38 <denisx> gmaxwell: I renamed the binary
1695 2013-09-24 22:56:29 <gmaxwell> what does old_leveldb mean?
1696 2013-09-24 22:56:31 <Luke-Jr> denisx: do you maintain this BSD port?
1697 2013-09-24 22:57:10 <gmaxwell> denisx: in any case, what is this a backtrace from?
1698 2013-09-24 22:57:17 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1699 2013-09-24 22:57:34 <denisx> Luke-Jr: not really, I try to keep up
1700 2013-09-24 22:57:44 <denisx> gmaxwell: from the last crash
1701 2013-09-24 22:58:12 <Luke-Jr> denisx: it seems to be linking to a system leveldb, which requires a LOT of care to do right; I wonder if the maintainer has taken such care
1702 2013-09-24 22:58:24 <Luke-Jr> LOT = more than any other software to exist prior to Bitcoin
1703 2013-09-24 22:59:12 <Luke-Jr> (possibly unrelated, but gmaxwell could probably speak more to the liklihood of that than I)
1704 2013-09-24 23:00:22 <warren> fork all libraries and rename them to discourage people from using system libraries ...
1705 2013-09-24 23:00:30 <Luke-Jr> warren: no, that is not a solution
1706 2013-09-24 23:00:32 <warren> internalize everything
1707 2013-09-24 23:00:43 <Luke-Jr> warren: system libraries *should* be used, just it requires care
1708 2013-09-24 23:01:00 <Luke-Jr> and current OS policies don't provide that care *usually*
1709 2013-09-24 23:01:13 <warren> Luke-Jr: what happens in the future if bitcoin can't control what exactly is in the system library?
1710 2013-09-24 23:01:28 <Luke-Jr> warren: control = centralisation
1711 2013-09-24 23:01:51 <gmaxwell> denisx: can you check some things in this debugger for me?
1712 2013-09-24 23:01:52 <Luke-Jr> warren: in the present, when bitcoin nodes can't be sure what the system lib does, we static link
1713 2013-09-24 23:02:00 Guest__ has joined
1714 2013-09-24 23:02:01 <Luke-Jr> in the future, OS policies will hopefully improve to make that unnecessary
1715 2013-09-24 23:02:05 <denisx> gmaxwell: we can try it
1716 2013-09-24 23:02:05 <gmaxwell> denisx: th 11
1717 2013-09-24 23:02:26 <gmaxwell> denisx: fr 9
1718 2013-09-24 23:02:28 <warren> Luke-Jr: I enjoy the optimism and arm waving.
1719 2013-09-24 23:02:38 <gmaxwell> what does it say the call at the stack frame there?
1720 2013-09-24 23:02:52 <denisx> gmaxwell: ok, done
1721 2013-09-24 23:03:00 <Luke-Jr> warren: forking libraries is bad and hurts people who manage system libraries with more optimal policies (like Gentoo)
1722 2013-09-24 23:03:01 <denisx> wanna see that line?
1723 2013-09-24 23:03:14 <gmaxwell> denisx: yea, please
1724 2013-09-24 23:05:04 <cfields> why is bsd building with gcc anyway?
1725 2013-09-24 23:05:19 <gmaxwell> denisx: any idea what version of libstdc++ that is?
1726 2013-09-24 23:05:32 <midnightmagic> oh, the freebsd guy is back again
1727 2013-09-24 23:05:35 <warren> cfields: what else would it use?
1728 2013-09-24 23:05:37 <midnightmagic> hi freebsd guy!!
1729 2013-09-24 23:05:45 <denisx> gmaxwell: oeh, it is running on freebsd 8.4
1730 2013-09-24 23:06:10 <gmaxwell> denisx: can you get me the whole version number on the library and you g++ version?
1731 2013-09-24 23:06:25 <cfields> warren: fbsd ditched gcc quite a while ago for llvm/clang
1732 2013-09-24 23:06:36 * midnightmagic cheers for freebsd guy!
1733 2013-09-24 23:07:27 <denisx> gcc version 4.2.1 20070831 patched [FreeBSD]
1734 2013-09-24 23:07:30 toffoo has joined
1735 2013-09-24 23:08:02 <sipa> ... that's ancient
1736 2013-09-24 23:08:19 <Luke-Jr> lol
1737 2013-09-24 23:08:29 <cfields> that's bsd's newest, they won't move to a gplv3'd gcc
1738 2013-09-24 23:08:32 <cfields> hence the switch to clang
1739 2013-09-24 23:08:39 <sipa> clang should work fine, no?
1740 2013-09-24 23:08:52 <midnightmagic> netbsd 5.1.2 is on g++ (GCC) 4.1.3 20080704 prerelease (NetBSD nb2 20081120)
1741 2013-09-24 23:09:36 <gmaxwell> so ironic, they'll take a compiler that qualcomm and apple both hold patents on which they won't license under any terms at all, but won't use current gcc. ohhh well.
1742 2013-09-24 23:09:42 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1743 2013-09-24 23:09:54 <midnightmagic> netbsd 6.1 is on g++ (NetBSD nb2 20110806) 4.5.3
1744 2013-09-24 23:10:13 <gmaxwell> denisx: in any case, I very dimply remember that there are std::string thread safty issues on old libstdc++/gcc but I can't find any reference now.
1745 2013-09-24 23:10:24 <denisx> I had it running with clang at some time
1746 2013-09-24 23:10:27 <gmaxwell> I don't really see what should be causing that backtrace.
1747 2013-09-24 23:10:36 <sipa> link?
1748 2013-09-24 23:10:41 agnostic98 has joined
1749 2013-09-24 23:11:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: http://pastie.org/8353084#1,8-9 line 111 or so is where it crashes
1750 2013-09-24 23:11:47 <gmaxwell> but it looks like an exception inside std::string (0_o) unless I'm misunderstanding it (always possible with me and C++ backtraces)
1751 2013-09-24 23:12:37 <sipa> certainly looks like it
1752 2013-09-24 23:13:20 <cfields> stack looks borked to me
1753 2013-09-24 23:14:17 <sipa> i don't see any signs of stack corruption?
1754 2013-09-24 23:14:20 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1755 2013-09-24 23:14:21 * midnightmagic wishes not for the first time that netbsd would ditch cvs.
1756 2013-09-24 23:15:10 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1757 2013-09-24 23:15:18 <nkuttler> ^^++
1758 2013-09-24 23:15:32 <sipa> cvs :o
1759 2013-09-24 23:15:34 t7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1760 2013-09-24 23:15:46 <muhoo> so there isn't a working light client for linux
1761 2013-09-24 23:15:52 <nkuttler> they could switch to mercurial. at least that's not tainted by linus
1762 2013-09-24 23:16:07 <nkuttler> muhoo: bitcoind
1763 2013-09-24 23:16:08 <sipa> muhoo: run an android emulator + android wallet? :p
1764 2013-09-24 23:16:37 <nkuttler> muhoo: if you like web apps, i wrote a flask web wallet i intend to publish soon..
1765 2013-09-24 23:16:57 DougieBot5000 has left ()
1766 2013-09-24 23:17:02 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1767 2013-09-24 23:17:09 <midnightmagic> sipa: Not even a real CVS, they're on 1.11 and have a custom tag version which recognises a special additional keyword in a divergent way from upstream, and their base CVS repo can't be accessed with 1.12. also, for a bunch of years one couldn't actually cvs checkout a real version of the tree via pserver using the native-included cvs
1768 2013-09-24 23:17:11 <gmaxwell> I think I've seen a backtrace that looked kinda like this from an OSX user too..
1769 2013-09-24 23:17:21 johnsoft has joined
1770 2013-09-24 23:17:34 <gmaxwell> (an exception inside std::string that I didn't understand)
1771 2013-09-24 23:17:38 <midnightmagic> .. which implied (to me) that their cvs pserver wasn't actually running netbsd.
1772 2013-09-24 23:17:51 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1773 2013-09-24 23:18:50 * midnightmagic is ashamed for complaining about his abusive but cuddly favourite OS.
1774 2013-09-24 23:19:50 <gmaxwell> muhoo: why aren't you using electrum?
1775 2013-09-24 23:23:09 <cfields> wait, are you guys using any funny filesystems?
1776 2013-09-24 23:23:12 <cfields> (bsd guys)
1777 2013-09-24 23:23:17 <ecoloco> Hello. I have used a command in debug window (in bitcoin-qt client), but I dont remember the command. So is there any logs for commands (in the past)?
1778 2013-09-24 23:24:25 <midnightmagic> cfields: i would call FFS a funny filesystem.
1779 2013-09-24 23:26:43 Gnaf has joined
1780 2013-09-24 23:27:16 Gnaf has quit (Changing host)
1781 2013-09-24 23:27:16 Gnaf has joined
1782 2013-09-24 23:27:17 <cfields> denisx: does the crash happen at startup?
1783 2013-09-24 23:27:23 <denisx> cfields: no
1784 2013-09-24 23:27:33 <denisx> it takes about a week
1785 2013-09-24 23:31:42 shesek has joined
1786 2013-09-24 23:32:28 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1787 2013-09-24 23:33:10 Gnaf has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130814063812])
1788 2013-09-24 23:35:38 richcollins has joined
1789 2013-09-24 23:40:05 freewil has joined
1790 2013-09-24 23:41:36 agnostic98 has joined
1791 2013-09-24 23:44:13 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1792 2013-09-24 23:45:57 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1793 2013-09-24 23:46:34 Coincidental has joined
1794 2013-09-24 23:49:03 lianj has quit (Changing host)
1795 2013-09-24 23:49:03 lianj has joined
1796 2013-09-24 23:49:13 MiningBuddy has joined
1797 2013-09-24 23:50:53 lianj has joined
1798 2013-09-24 23:50:53 MiningBuddy has joined
1799 2013-09-24 23:50:53 BTC0xygen has joined
1800 2013-09-24 23:50:53 SomeoneWeird has joined
1801 2013-09-24 23:50:53 BitCoroner has joined
1802 2013-09-24 23:50:53 petertodd has joined
1803 2013-09-24 23:50:53 crank has joined
1804 2013-09-24 23:50:53 jevin has joined
1805 2013-09-24 23:50:53 MKCoin has joined
1806 2013-09-24 23:50:53 quijibo has joined
1807 2013-09-24 23:50:53 qbasicer has joined
1808 2013-09-24 23:52:15 a5m0 has joined
1809 2013-09-24 23:52:15 Phoebus has joined
1810 2013-09-24 23:56:08 ry4nn has joined
1811 2013-09-24 23:56:08 realazthat has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1812 2013-09-24 23:56:34 JWU42 is now known as Guest93000
1813 2013-09-24 23:56:36 realazthat has joined
1814 2013-09-24 23:58:45 MobPhone has quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.10 Just need to be Chiznillen)
1815 2013-09-24 23:59:30 jayne has joined