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  40 2013-09-25 01:02:00 <cfields> denisx: still around?
  41 2013-09-25 01:02:09 <denisx> yep
  42 2013-09-25 01:02:37 <cfields> denisx: can you gcc -v and paste, please?
  43 2013-09-25 01:02:52 <cfields> also, is there a chance your system leveldb was built with a different compiler?
  44 2013-09-25 01:02:58 <denisx> gcc version 4.2.1 20070831 patched [FreeBSD]
  45 2013-09-25 01:03:06 <denisx> no
  46 2013-09-25 01:03:14 <cfields> denisx: i want to see the options it was configured with
  47 2013-09-25 01:03:39 <cfields> in modern gcc, -v gives you that. maybe it's something else at 4.2
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  97 2013-09-25 02:11:42 <Luke-Jr> wtf, http://btc4you.com/ seems to be spamming 10 satoshi sendmanys every 30 mins? :/
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 127 2013-09-25 03:04:37 <warren> Luke-Jr: isn't everyone filtering out outputs that small?
 128 2013-09-25 03:04:51 Squidicuz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 129 2013-09-25 03:05:28 <Luke-Jr> apparently not? :/
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 137 2013-09-25 03:11:31 <warren> gitian 12.04 win32 build now working.  testnet is failing to find any peers though.
 138 2013-09-25 03:14:00 lle has joined
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 141 2013-09-25 03:16:22 <warren> mainnet working.  It got stuck and failed to try to connect to any testnet peers.
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 146 2013-09-25 03:17:58 <warren> exp-ip thread failed on the two websites and it just kind of sits there doing notihng.
 147 2013-09-25 03:19:33 <muhoo> gmaxwell: thanks will check out electrum
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 175 2013-09-25 04:20:29 <muhoo> perfect, electrum is exactly what i needed. fast, light, reliable. the deterministic keys thing is cool too, and the console and ability to make unsigned or partial transactions is very nice
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 196 2013-09-25 04:55:13 <helo> i'm pretty sure this wallet was opened with a 5.1 libdb, but seems to have opened without issue with a db4.8 build
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 217 2013-09-25 05:57:11 <warren> gmaxwell: where's your external ip patch again?  was it submitted for PR?
 218 2013-09-25 05:59:15 macboz has joined
 219 2013-09-25 06:00:20 <gmaxwell> warren: no, it needs more testing before it's sutiable for a PR. I was just looking for feedback on the general approach before I went to hammer out the details.
 220 2013-09-25 06:02:06 toffoo has quit ()
 221 2013-09-25 06:02:54 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm tired of mingw, so I'll look at it now.
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 226 2013-09-25 06:09:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: https://github.com/petertodd/dust-b-gone.git
 227 2013-09-25 06:09:46 <petertodd> New script to clean your wallet of unwanted dust - looking for testers.
 228 2013-09-25 06:11:10 <petertodd> Basically it takes every txout of (by default) value <= 0.0001 BTC, creates a ALL|ANYONECANPAY transaction, and sends that transaction to a central server. A script then merges the transactions together, shuffles the inputs, and turns them into mining fees with a single 0-value OP_RETURN output.
 229 2013-09-25 06:11:52 <warren> petertodd: hm, after a restart they could accidentally combine some of that dust and create potential problems?
 230 2013-09-25 06:12:27 <petertodd> warren: sure, but the merge script checks for txouts that have already been spent
 231 2013-09-25 06:12:58 <petertodd> warren: Merging isn't automatic yet anyone - I'll do that by hand after double-checking everything went ok.
 232 2013-09-25 06:13:15 <warren> I have no dust to contribute.
 233 2013-09-25 06:13:24 <petertodd> warren: I can give you some :P
 234 2013-09-25 06:13:32 <warren> I can create some if you want. =)
 235 2013-09-25 06:13:50 <petertodd> lol, go for it, it'd be good to get another person testing this before I put it on the forums
 236 2013-09-25 06:18:22 paracyst has quit ()
 237 2013-09-25 06:18:27 <warren> gmaxwell: found it on logs, is extip.patch the most current now?
 238 2013-09-25 06:18:36 <gmaxwell> petertodd: \O/
 239 2013-09-25 06:18:51 <gmaxwell> warren: yup, I haven't touched it since then.
 240 2013-09-25 06:19:54 <gmaxwell> petertodd: "You're" -> "Your"
 241 2013-09-25 06:20:35 <warren> hmm, did BlueMatt's fork detector merge the IBD exception?
 242 2013-09-25 06:20:50 * warren looks
 243 2013-09-25 06:20:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, where?
 244 2013-09-25 06:21:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, found it
 245 2013-09-25 06:22:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I see you keep your wallet clean
 246 2013-09-25 06:22:47 qbasicer has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 247 2013-09-25 06:23:45 <gmaxwell> I probably have some in an offline wallet.
 248 2013-09-25 06:23:51 <gmaxwell> or nearline.
 249 2013-09-25 06:24:16 nowan_ has joined
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 251 2013-09-25 06:24:47 <petertodd> gmaxwell: god forbid, you could even make some for testing :P
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 254 2013-09-25 06:25:08 <gmaxwell> or I could up the limit to 0.0004.
 255 2013-09-25 06:25:16 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ha, close enough
 256 2013-09-25 06:25:31 _ingsoc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 257 2013-09-25 06:25:54 <warren> petertodd: "Given that fee estimation is still going to result in users getting their transactions stuck with few ways to fix the problem I think we'd be much better off pursuing tx-replacement first rather than easily sybilled fee estimation."
 258 2013-09-25 06:25:58 <warren> petertodd: I totally agree.
 259 2013-09-25 06:26:49 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 260 2013-09-25 06:26:50 <petertodd> warren: I've argued before *for* fee estimation, but only in the context of transaction replacement so the consequences of a bad estimate don't suck
 261 2013-09-25 06:27:21 nowan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 262 2013-09-25 06:27:27 <gmaxwell> petertodd: so— need to handle encrypted wallets. :P
 263 2013-09-25 06:28:45 eoss has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 264 2013-09-25 06:28:51 <gmaxwell> sort of annoying that decoderawtransaction doesn't show the sighash flags.
 265 2013-09-25 06:29:10 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, so signrawtransaction doesn't fail?
 266 2013-09-25 06:29:37 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea the signtraw transaction throws an exception.
 267 2013-09-25 06:29:43 <gmaxwell> when the wallet is encrypted.
 268 2013-09-25 06:30:04 <gmaxwell> should probably prompt the user for their passphrase there.
 269 2013-09-25 06:30:16 <gmaxwell> finds the daemon good for me on linux. Hurray.
 270 2013-09-25 06:31:52 <gmaxwell> Wonder if this can just be turned into a self-contained executable on windows? I assume it can be because p2pool has been.
 271 2013-09-25 06:32:01 jeewee has joined
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 273 2013-09-25 06:36:03 <warren> I think I asked a question like this before... https://github.com/gmaxwell/bitcoin/commit/bf3a20a6e8cafdf723ef101af078df303ea06fec
 274 2013-09-25 06:36:37 <warren> what happens to the tx going back to the mempool if it reorgs back to 99 (pre-maturity)?
 275 2013-09-25 06:37:16 <petertodd> gmaxwell: handles encrypted wallets now
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 277 2013-09-25 06:39:59 <warren> oh... dumb question
 278 2013-09-25 06:40:22 <warren> it won't reorg back to pre-maturity, it'll reorg post-maturity and just get mined again
 279 2013-09-25 06:40:34 <petertodd> ?
 280 2013-09-25 06:40:42 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2947
 281 2013-09-25 06:41:00 <petertodd> ah, yeah, that's a subtle point
 282 2013-09-25 06:41:02 <warren> petertodd: my brain thought for a second it's possible for orphaned block tx's to be rejected
 283 2013-09-25 06:41:31 <warren> well.. hmm.. it's still possible, just very improbable
 284 2013-09-25 06:43:30 <petertodd> warren: so have you tested my script yet?
 285 2013-09-25 06:43:45 <warren> petertodd: I have nothing but testnet bitcoin synced
 286 2013-09-25 06:44:00 <petertodd> warren: ah, too bad
 287 2013-09-25 06:44:05 <warren> petertodd: I frequently delete the bitcoin blockchain to make room for <another VM to test something else>
 288 2013-09-25 06:44:18 * petertodd thinks warren needs a bigger harddrive
 289 2013-09-25 06:44:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: works great.
 290 2013-09-25 06:44:27 <gmaxwell> (with encrypted wallet too.
 291 2013-09-25 06:44:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: good, have you gotten it to actually send some dust to my server?
 292 2013-09-25 06:45:09 <gmaxwell> been dryrunning.
 293 2013-09-25 06:45:23 <petertodd> cool
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 295 2013-09-25 06:45:41 <warren> petertodd: You're quite public for a centralized laundering service. =P
 296 2013-09-25 06:46:00 <petertodd> warren: laundering implies you can do something with the money after :P
 297 2013-09-25 06:46:14 <warren> yeah, lame joke
 298 2013-09-25 06:46:20 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I wonder if you can make it try to submit using socks on localhost:9050 :P
 299 2013-09-25 06:46:44 <petertodd> warren: I decided it'd be best if tx was signed ALL|ANYONECANPAY actually so it was clear where the money could go
 300 2013-09-25 06:47:07 <gmaxwell> petertodd: whats the server side of this look like? just a cgi that logs them until you get around to merging them up?
 301 2013-09-25 06:47:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I know 'eh... there are some socks libraries, but I figured anyone who cares would know to use privoxy, and I don't want to promise anything re: privacy just yet
 302 2013-09-25 06:47:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: socat
 303 2013-09-25 06:47:34 <gmaxwell> hehhe yea
 304 2013-09-25 06:47:56 <gmaxwell> petertodd: so running torify on it breaks access to the localhost rpc.
 305 2013-09-25 06:48:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ah, of course...
 306 2013-09-25 06:49:21 <gmaxwell> in any case.. you should have just gotten one from me.
 307 2013-09-25 06:49:38 <petertodd> yeah, that just came through fine
 308 2013-09-25 06:49:46 <gmaxwell> lemme try again.
 309 2013-09-25 06:49:54 <gmaxwell> oh interesting.. the lock actually hides it.
 310 2013-09-25 06:50:28 <gmaxwell> petertodd: did it work again?
 311 2013-09-25 06:50:36 <petertodd> yup
 312 2013-09-25 06:51:29 <gmaxwell> Great. Now you need to figure out how to make this work on windows. :P
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 314 2013-09-25 06:52:18 <gmaxwell> You might want to wrap the socket connection with some error handling so it gets a pretty error if it can't connect instead of a traceback.
 315 2013-09-25 06:52:58 <warren> py2exe?
 316 2013-09-25 06:53:01 <michagogo> gmaxwell: nice branch name
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 320 2013-09-25 06:56:43 <gmaxwell> petertodd: in any case, this is great and I think it looks ready for production use— minus whatever it takes to make it braindead simple for windows users.
 321 2013-09-25 06:56:57 <gmaxwell> I'll go bug other people to run it.
 322 2013-09-25 06:57:03 <gmaxwell> Unless you have an objection.
 323 2013-09-25 06:57:15 <michagogo> I'll run it, if it works on testnet
 324 2013-09-25 06:57:29 <michagogo> (I don't have mainnet dust afaik)
 325 2013-09-25 06:58:03 <gmaxwell> michagogo: you can ./dust-b-gone.py --dust 1.00000000 --dry-run
 326 2013-09-25 06:58:04 <petertodd> michagogo: testnet is fine - the backend will just ignore your tx
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 328 2013-09-25 06:58:46 <michagogo> petertodd: But how do I make it talk to port 18332?
 329 2013-09-25 06:59:01 <gmaxwell> sounds like it needs a testnet argument to get the right default port.
 330 2013-09-25 06:59:24 <petertodd> yeah...
 331 2013-09-25 06:59:43 <petertodd> though that's tricky because you can of course change that port - I make them the same actually regardless
 332 2013-09-25 07:00:13 <michagogo> Do you never have mainnet and testnet nodes running at the same time? o_O
 333 2013-09-25 07:00:18 <petertodd> lol, never
 334 2013-09-25 07:02:46 <gmaxwell> I've asked some other folks to try it out.
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 343 2013-09-25 07:10:22 <michagogo> petertodd: How come the `if args.dry_run:` is where it is?
 344 2013-09-25 07:10:51 <gmaxwell> michagogo: quits out before sending, but after doing everything else.
 345 2013-09-25 07:10:59 <michagogo> Why not put it after the `if sum_value_discarded > 0.5*COIN:`, right before `sock = socket.create_connection(args.address)`?
 346 2013-09-25 07:11:02 <gmaxwell> it could be after the sanity checks.
 347 2013-09-25 07:11:58 <michagogo> Also: don't you think half a bitcoin is a little high for the sanity check threshold?
 348 2013-09-25 07:14:57 <petertodd> ok, added --tor flag, moved dry-run print to after sanity checks, and lowered sanity check threshold to 0.1BTC
 349 2013-09-25 07:15:29 <michagogo> (and testnet?)
 350 2013-09-25 07:15:47 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
 351 2013-09-25 07:16:12 <petertodd> michagogo: dunno that really makes sense - I'd want to setup a testnet server, and really I should do it right and add proper testnet port finding to python-bitcoinlib - not doing all that tonight :P
 352 2013-09-25 07:16:34 <michagogo> petertodd: You don't have proper mainnet port finding, do you?
 353 2013-09-25 07:17:08 <petertodd> michagogo: I do
 354 2013-09-25 07:17:19 <michagogo> Also, you wouldn't need a server -- just parse the network from the transaction that's sent, no?
 355 2013-09-25 07:17:29 <michagogo> (or does a transaction not contain network bytes?)
 356 2013-09-25 07:17:41 <petertodd> michagogo: no, tx's have no indication they're testnet
 357 2013-09-25 07:18:02 <michagogo> o_O
 358 2013-09-25 07:18:07 <michagogo> Why is that?
 359 2013-09-25 07:18:21 <petertodd> because testnet == mainnet
 360 2013-09-25 07:18:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, go ahead and tell others
 361 2013-09-25 07:19:35 <michagogo> class Proxy(RawProxy):
 362 2013-09-25 07:19:35 <michagogo>     def __init__(self, ...service_port=8332,...
 363 2013-09-25 07:20:16 <michagogo> oh
 364 2013-09-25 07:20:18 <michagogo> nvm, I see it
 365 2013-09-25 07:20:58 <michagogo>                 conf['rpcport'] = int(conf.get('rpcport', service_port))
 366 2013-09-25 07:20:58 <michagogo> service_url = ('%s://%s:%s@localhost:%d' % ('https' if conf['rpcssl'] else 'http', conf['rpcuser'], conf['rpcpassword'], conf['rpcport']))
 367 2013-09-25 07:22:20 <michagogo> Wait, wtf
 368 2013-09-25 07:22:30 <michagogo> if platform.system() == 'Darwin':
 369 2013-09-25 07:22:30 <michagogo>     btc_conf_file = os.path.join(os.environ['APPDATA'], 'Bitcoin')
 370 2013-09-25 07:22:41 <michagogo> elif platform.system() == 'Windows':
 371 2013-09-25 07:22:42 <michagogo>     btc_conf_file = os.path.expanduser('~/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin/')
 372 2013-09-25 07:22:59 <michagogo> I'm fairly certain that's not right.
 373 2013-09-25 07:23:12 <petertodd> I've never tested either one myself
 374 2013-09-25 07:23:27 <michagogo> Those are switched around, is what I mean
 375 2013-09-25 07:23:41 <michagogo> %APPDATA%\Bitcoin is the location on Windows
 376 2013-09-25 07:23:51 <michagogo> and ~/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin/ is the location on OS X.
 377 2013-09-25 07:24:51 <petertodd> lol
 378 2013-09-25 07:24:54 <gmaxwell> haha
 379 2013-09-25 07:24:55 <gmaxwell> yea.
 380 2013-09-25 07:25:13 * michagogo wonders how in the world that happened
 381 2013-09-25 07:25:54 <gmaxwell> copy and paste error
 382 2013-09-25 07:26:39 <petertodd> yup
 383 2013-09-25 07:26:40 <petertodd> fixed
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 399 2013-09-25 07:59:50 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3029   upgrade gitian win32 to precise (Ubuntu 12.04) allows more compile-time hardening flags, some compiler bug fixes that are relevant to future performance optimizations, and possibly win64 support (if there is a real performance reason later).  I would be happy to clean this up more if folks have any concerns.
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 403 2013-09-25 08:06:07 <michagogo> warren: I'm not sure that the gitian descriptor for boost is the place to place instructions that people are required to follow
 404 2013-09-25 08:06:16 <michagogo> That should be in release-process.md
 405 2013-09-25 08:06:46 TD_ has joined
 406 2013-09-25 08:09:40 <warren> michagogo: you already began some of the updates that I had in mind, I have even more
 407 2013-09-25 08:10:10 <michagogo> Yeah, I think that file should be overhauled
 408 2013-09-25 08:10:19 <michagogo> (and maybe have the gitian instructions split off)
 409 2013-09-25 08:10:51 <michagogo> Anyway, IMHO contrib/gitian-descriptors/* isn't the place for human-readable instructions
 410 2013-09-25 08:11:08 <michagogo> well
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 412 2013-09-25 08:11:12 <michagogo> IMHO contrib/gitian-descriptors/*.yml
 413 2013-09-25 08:11:17 <michagogo> s/IMHO //
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 415 2013-09-25 08:15:10 <warren> michagogo: I included security/integrity relevant details of the patch in there
 416 2013-09-25 08:15:22 <michagogo> Sure
 417 2013-09-25 08:15:49 <michagogo> But now, to build, you need boost-mingw-gas-cross-compile-2013-03-03.patch in your inputs dir
 418 2013-09-25 08:16:56 <michagogo> [11:09:20] <michagogo> Anyway, IMHO contrib/gitian-descriptors/*.yml isn't the place for human-readable instructions
 419 2013-09-25 08:17:09 coius has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 420 2013-09-25 08:17:15 <michagogo> s/human-readable instructions/instructions to humans that are required for the build/
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 428 2013-09-25 08:30:17 <warren> michagogo: if a patch is needed to build something, it needs to get in there somehow.  I think we shouldn't shy away from patches, especially when distros are shipping it.
 429 2013-09-25 08:30:29 HaltingState has joined
 430 2013-09-25 08:30:32 <warren> michagogo: it's just another input like a tarball, except in this case its integrity is enforced
 431 2013-09-25 08:31:19 <michagogo> Yes, I'm not saying we shouldn't have a patch
 432 2013-09-25 08:32:52 jtimon has joined
 433 2013-09-25 08:32:56 <michagogo> What I'm saying is that users shouldn't be expected to read the gitian descriptor yml to make the build work
 434 2013-09-25 08:34:26 <warren> I agree.  release-process.md however is a bit of a mess and needs more extensive rewriting that is outside the scope of this PR.
 435 2013-09-25 08:34:42 <warren> for example, single URL's to each input ... fail
 436 2013-09-25 08:34:59 <warren> how many of you compared those tarballs to upstream and various distros?
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 443 2013-09-25 08:58:01 <michagogo> warren: Well, it's enough that one person does -- and then if someone's builds don't match, that can be looked into as a possibility
 444 2013-09-25 08:58:21 <michagogo> But yes, I agree that it needs a rewrite
 445 2013-09-25 08:59:04 <michagogo> But in the short term, for this specific PR, you should add that wget command to release-process.md in the PR
 446 2013-09-25 08:59:55 <michagogo> (unless someone has a specific plan to rewrite r-p.md before the next release of master)
 447 2013-09-25 09:00:17 <warren> I have a good idea of a comprehensive rewrite.
 448 2013-09-25 09:01:57 <warren> michagogo: I'll consider that for the next update of this PR, I don't consider it important though given the process as documented was broken for a while and the file needs a comprehensive rewrite.
 449 2013-09-25 09:02:24 <michagogo> "was broken for a while", but for the most part works as of master, afaik
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 451 2013-09-25 09:05:58 <warren> michagogo: for example, after this PR is accepted, I will propose upgrading ALL of the other dep versions
 452 2013-09-25 09:06:10 <warren> Litecoin had already done so 15 months ago
 453 2013-09-25 09:06:14 <michagogo> Sure
 454 2013-09-25 09:06:40 <michagogo> But still, if you're making a change right now, I believe that that line should be added to release-process
 455 2013-09-25 09:09:56 <warren> sure, I'll add the one or two lines in the next update if it makes you stop pushing hard on something that doesn't matter yet
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 495 2013-09-25 10:46:14 <moarr> would someone be able to embed amessage in the blockchain if i paid them?
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 504 2013-09-25 11:02:19 <bmcgee> hey guys, has https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2747/commits made it into a release yet?
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 506 2013-09-25 11:04:54 <UukGoblin> getreceivedbyaddress shows 0.00000000, validateaddress shows ismine:true, yet blockchain.info shows some money on that address, with multiple confirmations
 507 2013-09-25 11:05:07 <UukGoblin> actually, it's mostly generations
 508 2013-09-25 11:05:16 <UukGoblin> ah, no, it's only generations
 509 2013-09-25 11:05:32 patcon has joined
 510 2013-09-25 11:05:42 <UukGoblin> can I see what I generated on a particular address?
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 515 2013-09-25 11:14:54 <michagogo> bmcgee: no
 516 2013-09-25 11:15:13 <michagogo> bmcgee: it will be in the next release that comes from master
 517 2013-09-25 11:15:17 <bmcgee> yeah i'm building master at the moment instead
 518 2013-09-25 11:15:18 MobGod has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 519 2013-09-25 11:15:21 <michagogo> (probably 0.9)
 520 2013-09-25 11:15:28 <michagogo> bmcgee: What do you need it for?
 521 2013-09-25 11:15:52 MobGod has joined
 522 2013-09-25 11:16:53 CheckDavid has joined
 523 2013-09-25 11:16:59 <bmcgee> i'm writing a pool server, I want to check my block/work validation when receiving submissions. Since you can't easily solve blocks for testing, I was thinking an approach would be to get blocks already in the chain, construct a template for them, tweak said template so the block violates whatever property I'm trying to test, rinse and repeat. For that I need access to the hex dumps for a block.
 524 2013-09-25 11:17:12 <bmcgee> that said, if you can suggest an easier approach i'm all ears
 525 2013-09-25 11:17:45 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 526 2013-09-25 11:20:43 <Graet> testnet...
 527 2013-09-25 11:20:51 one_zero has quit ()
 528 2013-09-25 11:20:52 <Graet> thats what it was designed for
 529 2013-09-25 11:22:58 <sipa> bmcgee: will be in 0.9
 530 2013-09-25 11:25:58 <bmcgee> Graet: the general issue I'm having is when writing tests, in general i need to have a valid block, or series of blocks that i can simulate submissions with or whatever. To construct these blocks I would need to solve them, and if I want to test with blocks that have a difficulty greater than 1 then i could be waiting a long time. That's why I'm thinking it's better to grab the hex dumps from the block chain and tweak if needed.
 531 2013-09-25 11:26:52 <bmcgee> Am I making things more complicated than they need to be?
 532 2013-09-25 11:27:01 <Graet> the idea of testnet is to have a low difficulty so blocks are easy to generate
 533 2013-09-25 11:27:12 <nkuttler> bmcgee: have you seen testnet in a box yet?
 534 2013-09-25 11:27:25 <bmcgee> even difficulty 1 can take a while based on your hardware, and if you want to run a unit test...
 535 2013-09-25 11:27:43 <Graet> diff1 you can mine blocks on cpu easily
 536 2013-09-25 11:27:49 <Graet> thats how btc started
 537 2013-09-25 11:28:29 <sipa> bmcgee: you can run with -regtest
 538 2013-09-25 11:28:37 <bmcgee> nkuttler: I have experimented with it. I notice after solving the initial diff 1 block the next block arrives with diff 121
 539 2013-09-25 11:28:44 <sipa> bmcgee: which gives you a testnet-like network, but without any PoW checks
 540 2013-09-25 11:29:12 <sipa> it's how pulltester validates chain reorgs
 541 2013-09-25 11:29:20 <bmcgee> sipa: interesting
 542 2013-09-25 11:29:31 patcon has joined
 543 2013-09-25 11:29:53 <Graet> ;;gentime 1 121
 544 2013-09-25 11:29:53 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 121.0, is 6 days, 0 hours, 21 minutes, and 38 seconds
 545 2013-09-25 11:31:30 <bmcgee> nkuttler: can you explain why testnet in a box gives a diff 121 block after only 1 block is solved, i thought the difficulty should stay 1 until 2016 blocks are solved
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 550 2013-09-25 11:34:21 <michagogo> Would the scriptPubKey for inserting data into the blockchain be simply OP_RETURN prepended to the data to be inserted?
 551 2013-09-25 11:34:43 <michagogo> And, was the limit on the length for that 240 bytes, or am I misremembering?
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 555 2013-09-25 11:37:54 <bmcgee> ;;gentime 26 1
 556 2013-09-25 11:37:55 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 26.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 1.0, is 2 minutes and 45 seconds
 557 2013-09-25 11:39:12 <zeddan81> how can i fix this? http://blockchain.info/tx-index/08c2579828cc25e577d082861e23074ed31c7219bd29def39a5e350a25ce0e3e
 558 2013-09-25 11:39:40 <zeddan81> it was in que long time
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 581 2013-09-25 12:17:15 <michagogo> Anyone around who can help me understand raw transactions?
 582 2013-09-25 12:17:42 <michagogo> I'm trying to read transaction 1a2e22a717d626fc5db363582007c46924ae6b28319f07cb1b907776bd8293fc and figure out what parts are what
 583 2013-09-25 12:18:02 <michagogo> I'm using https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions as a guide
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 586 2013-09-25 12:19:26 <michagogo> The output's scriptPubKey is "OP_RETURN 215477656e74792062797465206469676573742e"
 587 2013-09-25 12:19:48 <michagogo> That's in the hex as 6a14215477656e74792062797465206469676573742e
 588 2013-09-25 12:19:58 <michagogo> 6a is the opcode for OP_RETURN.
 589 2013-09-25 12:20:03 <michagogo> What's 14?
 590 2013-09-25 12:20:05 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 591 2013-09-25 12:21:11 <sipa> a 20-byte push
 592 2013-09-25 12:21:25 <sipa> (the data of which is given the in the subsequent 20 bytes)
 593 2013-09-25 12:21:43 <michagogo> Ah
 594 2013-09-25 12:21:54 daktak has joined
 595 2013-09-25 12:22:05 <michagogo> Ohhh
 596 2013-09-25 12:22:14 <sipa> (20 = 0x14)
 597 2013-09-25 12:22:16 <michagogo> I was trying to understand "The next opcode bytes is data to be pushed onto the stack"
 598 2013-09-25 12:22:28 <michagogo> Was there a limit on that, btw?
 599 2013-09-25 12:22:50 <michagogo> Okay, I think I might understand this
 600 2013-09-25 12:23:15 <sipa> up to 75 bytes, iirc
 601 2013-09-25 12:23:22 <michagogo> so a number from 0x01 through 0x4b is interpreted as "push the next <number> bytes"
 602 2013-09-25 12:23:31 <michagogo> where <number> is 1-75
 603 2013-09-25 12:23:35 <sipa> from 0x00 through 0x4b, actually
 604 2013-09-25 12:23:48 <sipa> 0x00 is OP_0, but that's identical to an empty-vector-push
 605 2013-09-25 12:23:59 <michagogo> and then 0x76 is "push the following one byte's worth:"
 606 2013-09-25 12:24:14 <sipa> 0x4c, yes
 607 2013-09-25 12:24:31 <sipa> and 0x4d and 0x4e give the length of the data to be pushed in 2 and 4 bytes
 608 2013-09-25 12:24:32 <michagogo> so to push 100 bytes of data would be 0x46, 0x64, <data>?
 609 2013-09-25 12:24:56 <sipa> 0x4c 0x64 <data>
 610 2013-09-25 12:27:02 <michagogo> So if someone wanted to put 190 bytes of data into the blockchain, the scriptpubkey would be 0x4c 0xbe <data>?
 611 2013-09-25 12:28:06 <sipa> why do you ask? :p
 612 2013-09-25 12:28:16 <michagogo> I've been asked for help doing that
 613 2013-09-25 12:28:25 <sipa> tell them not to
 614 2013-09-25 12:28:34 <michagogo> I said it's not a good idea.
 615 2013-09-25 12:28:47 shesek has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 616 2013-09-25 12:29:10 <michagogo> (isn't it not as bad with your pruning patch, btw?)
 617 2013-09-25 12:29:28 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 618 2013-09-25 12:29:35 <sipa> it's still abuse, imho
 619 2013-09-25 12:29:55 <sipa> except it only impacts the blockchain instead of blockchain+utxo set
 620 2013-09-25 12:30:21 Olautze has joined
 621 2013-09-25 12:30:35 <michagogo> Ah, right.
 622 2013-09-25 12:30:40 <sipa> like walking into a house because the door is open, and only taking the TV with you, instead of taking the TV and robbing the vault
 623 2013-09-25 12:31:00 <sipa> and thinking that it's fine to do so, because the door was open
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 646 2013-09-25 13:07:18 <SomeoneWeird> trader, stop PM'ing people
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 688 2013-09-25 14:01:43 <Subo1977> gmaxwell: plz unlok me from ä#bitcoin .
 689 2013-09-25 14:01:58 <Subo1977> gmaxwell im a auth user and got a virus.
 690 2013-09-25 14:02:11 <Subo1977> gmaxwell: you can bann me next time forever.
 691 2013-09-25 14:02:34 arioBarzan has joined
 692 2013-09-25 14:02:51 * helo makes a kicking, banning motion in Subo1977's general direction
 693 2013-09-25 14:03:11 <Subo1977> helo:  plz no
 694 2013-09-25 14:03:37 <Graet> lol "got a virus"
 695 2013-09-25 14:03:54 <Graet> all of a sudden that spams the same as serial spammer
 696 2013-09-25 14:04:43 <JWU42> heh
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 698 2013-09-25 14:13:55 <arioBarzan> Happy 148,819,200 Difficulty!!!
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 744 2013-09-25 14:51:14 <xeroc> amazing!
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 749 2013-09-25 14:53:43 <gmaxwell> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-small-lin-10k.png < sipa's difficulty chart is off the chart again.
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 752 2013-09-25 14:54:33 <sipa> bah, to what do i increase it this time?
 753 2013-09-25 14:54:36 <sipa> 1.5 TH?
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 758 2013-09-25 14:58:36 <arioBarzan> sipa: thanks for the chart update
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 803 2013-09-25 15:39:33 <graingert> sipa: cant you do that automatically?
 804 2013-09-25 15:39:46 <graingert> sipa: autoscale the Y?
 805 2013-09-25 15:39:54 <graingert> what do you render the graphs with?
 806 2013-09-25 15:39:57 <sipa> gnuplot
 807 2013-09-25 15:40:05 <sipa> and yes, it supports autoscaling perfectly
 808 2013-09-25 15:40:11 <graingert> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4204839/how-to-scale-the-axis-in-gnuplot
 809 2013-09-25 15:40:27 <graingert> sipa: you should do that
 810 2013-09-25 15:40:27 t7 has quit (Quit: home)
 811 2013-09-25 15:40:28 <sipa> but the problem is that the difficulty and hashrate (left and right) Y axes need to match
 812 2013-09-25 15:41:02 <theorbtwo> sipa: If they need to match, why are they two different Y axies?
 813 2013-09-25 15:41:17 <sipa> have a look, and you'll understand
 814 2013-09-25 15:41:29 <graingert> script it?
 815 2013-09-25 15:41:34 <sipa> yeah, sure
 816 2013-09-25 15:41:40 <sipa> but that requires time :)
 817 2013-09-25 15:42:19 <sipa> theorbtwo: basically, hash rate and difficulty are related by a constant factor
 818 2013-09-25 15:42:27 <sipa> theorbtwo: every difficulty has a corresponding hash rate
 819 2013-09-25 15:42:38 emmnames has joined
 820 2013-09-25 15:42:57 <sipa> so it could just be one variable, but sometimes you want to read it as a hashrate, and sometimes as a difficulty
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 824 2013-09-25 15:43:43 <theorbtwo> sipa: Make both the Y axis, and label it both ways?
 825 2013-09-25 15:43:54 <sipa> ?
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 827 2013-09-25 15:44:47 <theorbtwo> On the back, graph hashrate and difficulty converted to hashrate, against the Y axis.  Fiddle the Y labels to display hashrate and hashrate * context.
 828 2013-09-25 15:45:02 <sipa> do you know gnuplot? :p
 829 2013-09-25 15:45:36 <theorbtwo> sipa: Not hugely well, I'm afraid.
 830 2013-09-25 15:45:53 <sipa> what i'm doing now is certainly an order of magnitude easier :p
 831 2013-09-25 15:46:07 <sipa> (as it's gnuplot doing the labeling, i just tell it what the range is)
 832 2013-09-25 15:46:16 <sipa> but the ranges need to match
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 887 2013-09-25 17:16:29 <gmaxwell> petertodd: re: dust-b-gone if it can't connect to the rpc it should probably give you some message about setting rpcuser= rpcpassword= server=1 for bitcoin-qt.
 888 2013-09-25 17:17:26 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I wonder if you can get bc.i to do a setting to give away dust, and a one time prompt to set the setting. :P
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 898 2013-09-25 17:25:04 <helo> is there a need to flag change address inputs that arrive after the first as suspicious?
 899 2013-09-25 17:25:56 _ingsoc has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 900 2013-09-25 17:25:57 <gmaxwell> it would be interesting to have the ability to auto-quarantine funds.
 901 2013-09-25 17:26:26 <helo> is there the ability to quarantine funds manually?
 902 2013-09-25 17:26:29 <gmaxwell> "[x] quarantine non-self payments to change addresses" "[ ] quarantine all address reuse"
 903 2013-09-25 17:26:40 <gmaxwell> We have lockunspent but it doesn't persist across restarts.
 904 2013-09-25 17:26:47 <gmaxwell> And there is no "locked funds balance"
 905 2013-09-25 17:27:12 <gmaxwell> adding balance displays for locked funds and making lockunspent persist would probably be a good path forward.
 906 2013-09-25 17:28:20 reizuki__ has joined
 907 2013-09-25 17:31:07 <gmaxwell> Or even "[ ] quarantine payments to addressess I've spent from, except [  ]"
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 910 2013-09-25 17:31:33 <midnightmagic> denisx: I don't know if you would care about this, but I ported the tag= support patch from old-ish CVS on NetBSD to the version available in ubuntu 13.04 which applies directly to the results of apt-get source cvs and it seems to work okay.
 911 2013-09-25 17:32:10 <denisx> midnightmagic: context?
 912 2013-09-25 17:32:55 <midnightmagic> denisx: you're a freebsd guy :)
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 915 2013-09-25 17:33:35 <denisx> midnightmagic: but that line has all but freebsd in it
 916 2013-09-25 17:37:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: spent from.. <.<
 917 2013-09-25 17:37:37 <sipa> Luke-Jr: as the sender, you're able to make that judgement
 918 2013-09-25 17:37:43 <midnightmagic> denisx: freebsd CVS used to (don't know if it still does) have a $FreeBSD$ tag in its sources which required special consideration, and thus the raw CVS repository was not portable to a Linux server.
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 920 2013-09-25 17:38:18 <denisx> midnightmagic: they switched to svn long time ago
 921 2013-09-25 17:38:52 <midnightmagic> denisx: The CVS that the *BSD use (were using?) is not upwardly compatible with the most-recent versions of CVS because the patches the *BSDs were using was not accepted into mainline. Instead, CVS did something completely incompatible with prior use and expected the projects to upgrade.
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 923 2013-09-25 17:41:17 <midnightmagic> denisx: The projects (NetBSD at least) did the stubborn thing and diverged from upstream mainline. it's quite irritating, so I forward-ported a tag= localid patch to modern CVS, and now can serve a NetBSD/pkgsrc/etc mirror directly from a Linux host without excising the *BSD build structures which make their stuff normally unbuildable on other platforms.
 924 2013-09-25 17:41:49 <midnightmagic> denisx: Anyway "I don't know if you would care about this,"
 925 2013-09-25 17:41:50 enquirer has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 926 2013-09-25 17:42:04 <denisx> midnightmagic: I think I don't ;)
 927 2013-09-25 17:42:11 <midnightmagic> well okay then.
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 932 2013-09-25 17:53:16 <BlueMatt> The New Yorker: amir is gonna launch a browser-pugin wallet with the guy who made the 3d-printed gun that everyone freaked out about. Just gonna put that here
 933 2013-09-25 17:56:38 <Luke-Jr> what does the 3D print gun have to do with it? O.o
 934 2013-09-25 17:57:31 <BlueMatt> somehow he decided the logical followup to 3d printed gun is bitcoin wallet
 935 2013-09-25 17:58:13 <Luke-Jr> O.o
 936 2013-09-25 17:58:18 <midnightmagic> what do you mean "the guy"
 937 2013-09-25 17:58:39 <midnightmagic> there's like a dozen now
 938 2013-09-25 17:58:43 <Luke-Jr> :o
 939 2013-09-25 17:58:49 <Luke-Jr> any practical?
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 941 2013-09-25 17:59:02 <BlueMatt> The first one that everyone freaked out about, the liberator http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2013/09/dark-wallet-bitcoin.html
 942 2013-09-25 18:00:06 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no, they're just useless things that exist purely to create media frenzy and stir up regulators.
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 946 2013-09-25 18:04:15 <Arnavion> That makes them not useless then heh
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 950 2013-09-25 18:11:16 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: negative effects aren't usually considered useful O.o
 951 2013-09-25 18:11:49 <Arnavion> That depends if you think stirring up regulators is a bad thing
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 955 2013-09-25 18:12:06 <Arnavion> s/if/on whether/
 956 2013-09-25 18:13:03 <gmaxwell> Pretty good if the thing you're stirring them up about threatens your business model.
 957 2013-09-25 18:13:06 jtimon has joined
 958 2013-09-25 18:15:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: So there have been a bunch of indicents lately where startup problems (e.g. due to nVersion bug) are causing users to delete everything in their bitcoin directory except their wallet.dat, and then they can't read their wallet because it was an unclean shutdown.
 959 2013-09-25 18:15:32 daktak has joined
 960 2013-09-25 18:15:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it seems at least some of them are doing this because of outdated instructions here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=11331.0
 961 2013-09-25 18:16:09 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: any chance you could revise them? I don't think "delete everything except wallet.dat" is good advice anymore, at least not as step 2.
 962 2013-09-25 18:16:22 <gmaxwell> not since blkindex and addr.dat went away.
 963 2013-09-25 18:16:31 <gmaxwell> (esp addr.dat, as that was the #1 cause of startup bdb errors)
 964 2013-09-25 18:22:19 <sipa> if anything -reindex should be strictly better than wiping
 965 2013-09-25 18:22:37 <sipa> as even if your block data files are total garbage, the result is the same
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 967 2013-09-25 18:26:58 <helo> the person that started defense distributed
 968 2013-09-25 18:27:12 <helo> oops, was scrolled up
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 970 2013-09-25 18:27:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, I think the current advice should be to figure out if your issue is wallet related or not, and if not wallet related, reindex. If wallet related, backup wallet and database directory.. and try salvagewallet.
 971 2013-09-25 18:29:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: daaaamn, how are people still finding this thread?
 972 2013-09-25 18:30:02 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: no, they all break after anywhere from three shots to a hundred.
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 974 2013-09-25 18:30:32 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: well, not sure that's a real problem - the question IMO is whether they can be made reasonably cheaply
 975 2013-09-25 18:30:53 <Luke-Jr> 3 shots is plenty for self defense usually
 976 2013-09-25 18:31:08 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: I am quite incensed at the notion that 3-d printers might be regulated in some technical, drm-like fashion.
 977 2013-09-25 18:32:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: but safe and accurate? and really— you shouldn't be carrying around a gun you've never fired.
 978 2013-09-25 18:32:07 <midnightmagic> or even that people are up in arms over it, since construction of a gun-like projectile device is so trivial.
 979 2013-09-25 18:32:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: true
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 983 2013-09-25 18:32:46 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: yea its dumb all around, but the end result may be stupid laws being passed that add costs to 3d printing companies and cause stupid problems like not being able to get some shapes printed because they're too gunlike. "Good job guys"
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 986 2013-09-25 18:34:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: or 3D printers that only print designs with government-signed licenses
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 989 2013-09-25 18:35:06 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you just submit your design to a goverment shape analyizer, and then if its okay they sign off on it and the printer will print it. But no worries, they promise to never use this position of authority for evil.
 990 2013-09-25 18:35:32 <Luke-Jr> heh, stopping you from printing guns is pretty evil :p
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1007 2013-09-25 18:50:47 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: it would surprise me if they are effectively able to do that, what with the self-improvement bent of the reprap-like devices already out there in the field, and metalicarap actually making progress.
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1009 2013-09-25 18:51:30 <midnightmagic> i mean I'm sure not going to waste my time printing macro objects one molecular layer at a time, but it's coming along
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1013 2013-09-25 18:52:52 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: there are lots of regulations which are effective at pratically achieving ends which are theoretically impossible.
1014 2013-09-25 18:53:39 <gmaxwell> You don't have to make it impossible to work around the regulations, just annoying, risky, costly, etc. enough that 99.9% of people will. And the 0.1% who don't will stand out and have no shelter or will just be too few to matter.
1015 2013-09-25 18:54:23 <midnightmagic> and they restrict technology to a few people who have godlike manufacturing power and everyone else grovels in the mud.
1016 2013-09-25 18:54:26 <midnightmagic> :(
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1018 2013-09-25 18:55:19 <gmaxwell> Yea, doubly so if you piss the regulators off enough that they don't care about collateral damage like "destroying competition in a whole industry, and leaving it with a few mega consoldated winners" (all the better to make campaign contributions…)
1019 2013-09-25 18:55:56 <gmaxwell> (egad, I am horribly offtopic)
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1023 2013-09-25 19:04:33 <oleganza> I'm reading about BIP32 and wondering about public derivation method. If instead of addition (l + k), there was multiplication l*k, it would also be easy to find k knowing k_child = l*k and l?
1024 2013-09-25 19:05:34 <sipa> yes
1025 2013-09-25 19:05:45 <sipa> multiplication has no security properties over addition
1026 2013-09-25 19:06:00 <sipa> in a former version, we used multiplication because it seemed more secure
1027 2013-09-25 19:06:27 <sipa> but as that just turned out to be nothing more than (incorrect) intuition, using addition made it more obvious
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1029 2013-09-25 19:11:59 <oleganza> i wonder if it's possible with some RSA scheme to isolate private keys, but allow public derivation
1030 2013-09-25 19:13:09 <oleganza> however, in practice it's not a concern
1031 2013-09-25 19:13:13 <oleganza> i was just wondering
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1033 2013-09-25 19:14:04 <oleganza> sipa: thanks for answer. I just watched your san jose talk.
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1039 2013-09-25 19:17:03 <coingenuity> im still mad at you for not coming to say hi to me in sj sipa xD
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1047 2013-09-25 19:31:55 <sipa> coingenuity: i saw no one with a big sign "I'm coinginuity!" walking around :o
1048 2013-09-25 19:32:06 <coingenuity> lmao
1049 2013-09-25 19:32:22 <sipa> (seriously, i have no clue what you look like)
1050 2013-09-25 19:32:39 <coingenuity> ah, yeah, i'm pretty low-profile
1051 2013-09-25 19:33:02 <coingenuity> came to say hi to greg/luke when i saw them though, they can tell you what i look like... i have no idea xD
1052 2013-09-25 19:33:04 numismatics has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1054 2013-09-25 19:34:24 <gmaxwell> I saw coingenuity for like 10 minutes at the start of the conference and then he vanished.
1055 2013-09-25 19:36:28 <coingenuity> heh, did i accomplish my goal of being low profile gmaxwell
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1057 2013-09-25 19:36:55 <coingenuity> i only had one or two people do the usual HERFEDERRUFOMGCOINGENUITY thing
1058 2013-09-25 19:36:59 <coingenuity> :D
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1079 2013-09-25 20:04:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: next time we should put a leash on him so we can drag him out when we meet up with sipa?
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1082 2013-09-25 20:05:42 <sipa> i have no further travel plans to the US, for now :)
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1101 2013-09-25 20:32:20 <warren> wumpus: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3029  any feedback on the upgrade old gitian deps or not question?
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1110 2013-09-25 20:40:15 <Luke-Jr> warren: IMO, we don't/shouldn't care about input hashes
1111 2013-09-25 20:41:50 <warren> Luke-Jr: for a patch that people download from <mirrors> you probably do care as it could contain anything
1112 2013-09-25 20:42:24 <Luke-Jr> warren: I thought that was just an upgrade?
1113 2013-09-25 20:42:25 <warren> Luke-Jr: as far as shouldn't care for the tarballs, that's a different policy discussion.  Could you please elaborate?
1114 2013-09-25 20:42:45 <warren> Luke-Jr: upgrade yes, but upstream as of 1.51+ broke the ability to cross-compile it at all
1115 2013-09-25 20:42:54 <warren> Luke-Jr: that patch is needed to cross-compile with free software
1116 2013-09-25 20:42:59 <Luke-Jr> warren: the only thing we're really concerned about with gitian, is that the outputs are the same hash
1117 2013-09-25 20:44:05 <warren> Luke-Jr: any comment on upgrading deps at all?
1118 2013-09-25 20:44:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think what warren is pointing out is that gitian downloads stuff at runtime from untrusted/unsecured sources. So if someone compromises one of those you get a mystery binary, but it'll all match.
1119 2013-09-25 20:44:50 <warren> Luke-Jr: I can also downgrade boost to the original gitian win32 1.50.0 version and apply a build fix there, but I rather upgrade it and all the other deps to what distros are shipping.
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1122 2013-09-25 20:45:54 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: gitian *currently* does not do such downloads
1123 2013-09-25 20:46:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: and if the binary matches, it's not a mystery
1124 2013-09-25 20:46:23 <warren> Luke-Jr: the docs tell you to download from particular URL's, some of which were broken links and one was missing entirely until recently
1125 2013-09-25 20:46:42 <Luke-Jr> warren: I don't really care about deps so long as older versions don't break in self-compiles
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1127 2013-09-25 20:46:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think the gitian process should have authentication of all the inputs.
1128 2013-09-25 20:47:22 <warren> gmaxwell: I asked devrandom if he approves of my input authentication approach.  He says it's fine.
1129 2013-09-25 20:47:34 <warren> gmaxwell: I included it just as an example of what can be done for all inputs.
1130 2013-09-25 20:47:35 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: we have *never* got deterministic inputs between A and B
1131 2013-09-25 20:48:08 <gmaxwell> the problem is say one dependency comes from http://compromised/server/ ... then all the gitian users will build the same owned binary. It's less of a concern in the face of manual updates instead of automatic ones.
1132 2013-09-25 20:48:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: this isn't checking if the inputs have determinstic builds, its checking that the input data is deterministic.
1133 2013-09-25 20:48:45 <Luke-Jr> …
1134 2013-09-25 20:48:52 <Luke-Jr> there's no distinction presently
1135 2013-09-25 20:49:17 <gmaxwell> warren isn't just checking the file hashes for the inputs?
1136 2013-09-25 20:49:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the inputs for the bitcoin ymls *are* builds of the other dep ymls
1137 2013-09-25 20:49:47 <warren> when my team did gitian for the first time, I told them to NOT download from the URL's in the documentation, to search distro sources and find random copies of it all over and compare the unpacked tarballs.
1138 2013-09-25 20:49:52 <Luke-Jr> and not all of those are deterministic
1139 2013-09-25 20:50:24 <warren> Luke-Jr: deterministic intermediate steps is irrelevant here.  I want to check the integrity of input source only.
1140 2013-09-25 20:50:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: ah, well thats a problem. I think it makes sense to back all the way out to the ultimate inputs. E.g. OS ISO hash, extra dependencies source hashes, etc.
1141 2013-09-25 20:53:08 <warren> gmaxwell: any feelings on upgrading the deps for win32 gitian?
1142 2013-09-25 20:53:28 <warren> perhaps Diapolo would like qt5
1143 2013-09-25 20:53:49 <warren> cozz pointed out a bug in qt4 caused by recent changes where only qt5 was tested
1144 2013-09-25 20:53:51 <gmaxwell> warren: I don't believe that we should make linux and windows builds too gratuitously distinct.
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1146 2013-09-25 20:54:15 <gmaxwell> how is only qt5 tested? I think Diapolo is the only person using QT5.
1147 2013-09-25 20:54:22 <Luke-Jr> ^
1148 2013-09-25 20:54:30 <warren> gmaxwell: and isn't he the only windows dev?
1149 2013-09-25 20:54:40 <Luke-Jr> oh, a Windows-specific bug?
1150 2013-09-25 20:54:44 <warren> gmaxwell: point being, qt4 is not being devved
1151 2013-09-25 20:54:52 <gmaxwell> "devved"?
1152 2013-09-25 20:55:09 <warren> not being tested by developer making changes for qt5
1153 2013-09-25 20:55:30 <Luke-Jr> warren: Bitcoin-Qt is mainly tested with Qt 4
1154 2013-09-25 20:55:39 <Luke-Jr> Windows is the small exception to that
1155 2013-09-25 20:55:42 <warren> ok, qt is not the best example here.  what about upgrading the other libraries?
1156 2013-09-25 20:56:04 <warren> libpng has an unpatched CVE that upstream considers critical.  yes, irrelevant to us, but why not just upgrade it?
1157 2013-09-25 20:56:15 <Luke-Jr> I don't think we should go to bleeding edge, but if the upgrades are to stable versions fine
1158 2013-09-25 20:56:20 <warren> not bleeding
1159 2013-09-25 20:56:24 <Luke-Jr> libpng 1.5.5 for example
1160 2013-09-25 20:56:26 <warren> just to the version upstream recommends
1161 2013-09-25 20:56:26 <gmaxwell> warren: because the upgrade contains a backdoor that steals wallets?
1162 2013-09-25 20:56:46 <warren> gmaxwell: ship the same tarball found in 4 distros
1163 2013-09-25 20:56:53 <gmaxwell> we remove zlib specifically to avoid this stupid hamster wheel. I don't suppose we can change all the icons to xpms and build without libpng?
1164 2013-09-25 20:57:04 <warren> heh
1165 2013-09-25 20:57:10 * Luke-Jr notes libpng uses zlib
1166 2013-09-25 20:57:19 <warren> win32 deps has zlib
1167 2013-09-25 20:57:22 <gmaxwell> indeed it does, how do we even have libpng without zlib?
1168 2013-09-25 20:57:27 <warren> we don't
1169 2013-09-25 20:57:28 <Luke-Jr> we don't
1170 2013-09-25 20:57:36 <gmaxwell> can we get rid of both?
1171 2013-09-25 20:57:46 <warren> if someone writes the patch, sure.
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1173 2013-09-25 20:59:26 <warren> I see a way to also upgrade linux gitian to 12.04 without increasing the minimum glibc version
1174 2013-09-25 20:59:36 <warren> it might be too ugly to include as bitcoin code though
1175 2013-09-25 21:00:03 sphere has joined
1176 2013-09-25 21:00:18 <gmaxwell> warren: what, building the old glibc and linking against it?
1177 2013-09-25 21:00:30 <Luke-Jr> we should only support back to earliest-maintained(Fedora | Gentoo | Debian | Ubuntu) IMO
1178 2013-09-25 21:00:39 <gmaxwell> warren: do you have a RHEL6 system you can test against? is it possible that 12.04 builds just work there?
1179 2013-09-25 21:01:03 <warren> gmaxwell: I have RHEL6, unlikely it works there, I'll try later.
1180 2013-09-25 21:01:29 <gmaxwell> please try, since I think that immediately answers resolves all issues.
1181 2013-09-25 21:01:52 Grouver has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC)
1182 2013-09-25 21:01:52 <warren> 10.04 linux gitian builds already don't work on RHEL5
1183 2013-09-25 21:02:01 <Luke-Jr> RHEL 6 uses glibc 2.12
1184 2013-09-25 21:02:18 <warren> when did the libstdc++ ABI change the last time?
1185 2013-09-25 21:02:40 <Luke-Jr> 3.3?
1186 2013-09-25 21:02:45 <warren> wow
1187 2013-09-25 21:02:46 <warren> ok
1188 2013-09-25 21:02:54 <Luke-Jr> I could be wrong
1189 2013-09-25 21:02:58 <gmaxwell> GCC 3.3, it's due to change again sometime soon... well complete change the C++11 stuff has broken several times.
1190 2013-09-25 21:03:42 <Luke-Jr> Ubuntu 10.04 was glibc 2.11 FWIW
1191 2013-09-25 21:03:48 <Luke-Jr> so gitian builds with that *should* work on RHEL 6
1192 2013-09-25 21:03:59 <warren> any opinions on upgrading the win32 gitian deps?  how about "to the stable version shipped in many distros, not bleeding edge." ?
1193 2013-09-25 21:04:11 <warren> Luke-Jr: it does
1194 2013-09-25 21:04:27 sphered has joined
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1196 2013-09-25 21:04:58 <Luke-Jr> Debian=2.13 Ubuntu=2.15 Debian=2.13 Gentoo=2.15
1197 2013-09-25 21:05:02 <Luke-Jr> err
1198 2013-09-25 21:05:04 <gmaxwell> Not RHEL5 though. But thats fine, I don't mind dropping RHEL5. Dropping 6 would be kind of annoying esp considering what a pain it is to build bitcoin yourself there.
1199 2013-09-25 21:05:09 <Luke-Jr> RHEL=2.12
1200 2013-09-25 21:05:11 <warren> RHEL5 is already dropped.
1201 2013-09-25 21:05:17 <Luke-Jr> IMO we should go with glibc 2.12 for now
1202 2013-09-25 21:05:39 <sphered> hi
1203 2013-09-25 21:05:58 <Luke-Jr> no reason gitian can't use SL instead of Ubuntu, is there?
1204 2013-09-25 21:06:06 <warren> So CentOS6 in the gitian VM to do the builds would support everything, and it is probably the best maintained long-term distro. =)
1205 2013-09-25 21:06:22 <sphered> i need some c++ help :)
1206 2013-09-25 21:06:23 <Luke-Jr> CentOS instead of SL? O.o
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1210 2013-09-25 21:07:00 <warren> RHEL6 support is until 2020-11-30, or Q4 2023 for extended suport
1211 2013-09-25 21:07:17 mappum has joined
1212 2013-09-25 21:07:20 <warren> Luke-Jr: CentOS has full time employees to maintain it...
1213 2013-09-25 21:07:54 <Luke-Jr> warren: SL doesn't?
1214 2013-09-25 21:08:09 <warren> Luke-Jr: for a while centos lagged while SL was faster, it seems opposite now
1215 2013-09-25 21:08:16 * Luke-Jr shrugs
1216 2013-09-25 21:08:26 <Luke-Jr> I bet supporting one makes it easy to swap between either
1217 2013-09-25 21:08:28 <Luke-Jr> :P
1218 2013-09-25 21:08:31 <warren> yes
1219 2013-09-25 21:08:48 <warren> there's currently nothing like apt-cacher-ng as a drop-in yum cache though.
1220 2013-09-25 21:09:08 <warren> transparent caching with squid has cache coherency issues between the metadata files
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1223 2013-09-25 21:10:42 sphered has joined
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1225 2013-09-25 21:11:00 <warren> Luke-Jr: if folks are serious about wanting a EL6-based linux gitian VM I can do it.
1226 2013-09-25 21:11:12 <sphered> hi
1227 2013-09-25 21:11:14 <warren> that's a lot of work though
1228 2013-09-25 21:11:38 jedunnigan has joined
1229 2013-09-25 21:11:39 <Luke-Jr> I don't see any other good options, but wait and see what Gavin and others think
1230 2013-09-25 21:11:45 <Luke-Jr> Ubuntu is dropping Lucid soon, and Precise's glibc is too new :/
1231 2013-09-25 21:11:57 <gmaxwell> warren: I think if that were going to be done, it might be worth exploring using an absolutely minimum build enviroment instead (as cfields seemed to favor)
1232 2013-09-25 21:12:07 <warren> Luke-Jr: did Ubuntu have a non-LTS distro with glibc-2.12?  even if it is unsupported now, it might be a fine unchanging distro to use for toolchain and we provide our own library deps for the static parts.
1233 2013-09-25 21:12:17 <sphered> im developing a coin and i need to send a perctange of coins in a block to certain adresses how can i do this ?
1234 2013-09-25 21:12:28 <warren> gmaxwell: what would the minimum build dev be?  and how would that avoid us maintaining a toolchain?
1235 2013-09-25 21:12:33 <sipa> sphered: this is not #altcoin-dev
1236 2013-09-25 21:12:34 <Luke-Jr> sphered: this is #bitcoin-dev, not #make-your-own-scamcoin
1237 2013-09-25 21:12:45 <sphered> its not a scam coin
1238 2013-09-25 21:12:57 <sphered> and how many people are on altcoinp-dev anyway
1239 2013-09-25 21:13:07 <Luke-Jr> sphered: if you can't even figure something this simple, it is a scamcoin
1240 2013-09-25 21:13:15 <sphered> :/
1241 2013-09-25 21:13:20 <warren> sphered: I have to agree with Luke-Jr here.
1242 2013-09-25 21:13:21 zeiris has joined
1243 2013-09-25 21:13:37 joesmoe has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1244 2013-09-25 21:13:38 <gmaxwell> warren: not clear, obviously gcc/binutils/glibc/ ... as far as "us maintaining", if you're talking about upgrading all these things on top of an existing distribution thats effectively what we're doing.
1245 2013-09-25 21:13:52 <sphered> just because someone dosnt have much c++ experience dose not make them a scammer
1246 2013-09-25 21:14:07 <gmaxwell> sphered: this discussion is offtopic for this channel.
1247 2013-09-25 21:14:09 <Luke-Jr> Gentoo might not be a bad answer here - it'll be slower to bootstrap, but we could theoretically get it 100% deterministic from the start
1248 2013-09-25 21:14:16 <sipa> sphered: i won't claim it's a scam - your intentions may be honest, but 1) this is not development of altcoins and 2) if you're serious about developing a cryptocurrency, you'll need to understand the source anyway
1249 2013-09-25 21:14:17 <sphered> k
1250 2013-09-25 21:14:36 <gmaxwell> warren: If bitcoin were straight C and had no deps but libc, I'd be saying that for sure we should just be doing our own cross compile toolchain. For one: it would eliminate the VM and large diskspace requirements.
1251 2013-09-25 21:14:42 <Luke-Jr> sphered: why not improve Bitcoin?
1252 2013-09-25 21:14:50 jedunnig_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1253 2013-09-25 21:14:57 <warren> Luke-Jr: I am at least doing that.
1254 2013-09-25 21:14:58 <sphered> well im learning the source code anyway :) but ok enough of this its off topic
1255 2013-09-25 21:15:07 <gmaxwell> warren: at some point in terms of dependencies it becomes easier to take a whole distro... we may be past that point.
1256 2013-09-25 21:15:26 <sipa> gmaxwell, warren, Luke-Jr: executive summary?
1257 2013-09-25 21:15:28 graingert__ has joined
1258 2013-09-25 21:15:45 <edcba> i really doubt bitcoin needed a database and a whole crypto lib...
1259 2013-09-25 21:15:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: of?
1260 2013-09-25 21:15:52 graingert__ is now known as Guest71161
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1262 2013-09-25 21:16:08 <warren> sipa: we're discussing how to upgrade gitian linux'sto have a more modern/maintained way to build linux binaries that work on all target distros.
1263 2013-09-25 21:16:10 Guest75853 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1264 2013-09-25 21:16:12 <sipa> build environment discussion
1265 2013-09-25 21:16:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: warren is discussing dependencies upgrades for gitian. There is some complication required because an ubuntu 12.04 upgrade would exclude RHEL 6 which would be unfortunate.
1266 2013-09-25 21:16:33 <sphered> luke are you on altcoin-dev as well
1267 2013-09-25 21:16:40 <gmaxwell> (unless we did something like ubuntu 12.04 + build an older glibc)
1268 2013-09-25 21:16:42 <warren> sipa: RHEL6 with glibc-2.12 would make binaries that work everywhere, and RHEL6 is supported until 2020 at least.
1269 2013-09-25 21:16:49 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Debian=2.13 Ubuntu=2.15 Gentoo=2.15 RHEL=2.12
1270 2013-09-25 21:17:03 <Luke-Jr> so using Ubuntu's new LTS means we drop Debian and RHEL support
1271 2013-09-25 21:17:15 <sipa> oh :(
1272 2013-09-25 21:17:21 <gmaxwell> Fedora=2.17
1273 2013-09-25 21:17:32 joesmoe has joined
1274 2013-09-25 21:17:51 <warren> it's also a non-trivial amount of work to adapt a non-dpkg distro to gitian
1275 2013-09-25 21:17:54 <gmaxwell> Debian is popular and RHEL is hard to build bitcoin for yourself. :(
1276 2013-09-25 21:18:24 <sipa> and manually downgrading glibc is probably not worth the trouble?
1277 2013-09-25 21:18:32 <gmaxwell> And ubuntu 12.04 + old glibc is starting to sound like "build your own distro", but may make sense.
1278 2013-09-25 21:19:05 <warren> sipa: there's also the question of if people want "upgrade gitian win32 library deps to stable versions shipped in multiple distros"
1279 2013-09-25 21:19:25 <sphered> luke-jr: could you teach me this on altcoin-dev?
1280 2013-09-25 21:19:28 <gmaxwell> (esp since we don't really want "old" glibc, we want something like what RHEL is shipping ABI compatible with 2.12 but probably has bugs fixed)
1281 2013-09-25 21:19:34 <cfields> imo the cost of distributing a binary here is more burdensome than letting distros provide non-deterministic ones
1282 2013-09-25 21:19:53 <Luke-Jr> sphered: I'm not interested in supporting scamcoins (which mere clones are, even if you have the right intentions)
1283 2013-09-25 21:20:00 <gmaxwell> cfields: your opinion is noted, and has been duly discarded.
1284 2013-09-25 21:20:08 <gmaxwell> :P
1285 2013-09-25 21:20:14 <Luke-Jr> downgrading glibc would mean breaking every other package..,
1286 2013-09-25 21:20:26 <sipa> ubuntu only has 2.11 (lucid), 2.15 (precise, quantal), 2.17 (raring, saucy)
1287 2013-09-25 21:20:35 <gmaxwell> you don't "downgrade" you do a parallel build of it and link everything in your binary against that one.
1288 2013-09-25 21:20:43 <warren> cfields: with two of the major distros being completely unable to do so due to (possibly unwarranted) patent fears, and some distros not liking to use internalized libraries, that is not as simple as one would think.
1289 2013-09-25 21:20:50 <gmaxwell> Which then starts to sound like just using a plain cross compile enviroment instead of a whole distro.
1290 2013-09-25 21:20:53 ticean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1291 2013-09-25 21:21:22 <sphered> Luke-Jr: ok btw my coin is not a mere clone with some simple modifications.
1292 2013-09-25 21:21:29 Skav has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1293 2013-09-25 21:21:40 Edward_Black has quit (Quit: ow ow ow...)
1294 2013-09-25 21:21:42 <sipa> there is at least no problem upgrading the win32 build environment to precise
1295 2013-09-25 21:21:43 <warren> sphered: this is off-topic, and asking Luke-Jr for alt coin help is humorous.
1296 2013-09-25 21:22:05 <Luke-Jr> warren: pfft, I've helped legit altcoins plenty
1297 2013-09-25 21:22:07 <warren> sipa: yes, already have that in PR, I'm asking for feedback, including if people want to upgrade the library deps
1298 2013-09-25 21:22:17 <cfields> gmaxwell: bitcoin itself could be made to be deterministic within the distro, and the checksums posted. i suppose i don't understand the drawback there
1299 2013-09-25 21:22:26 <sphered> ok ok guys ill go off now. if anyone wants to help me with some c++ come to altcoin-dev
1300 2013-09-25 21:22:28 <sphered> bye
1301 2013-09-25 21:22:34 <Luke-Jr> cfields: we'd need gitian builders for every distro?
1302 2013-09-25 21:22:43 <warren> cfields: determinism is not the main concern here at the distro level
1303 2013-09-25 21:23:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: he means that anyone building on their favorite distro (not in a VM), would end up with the same binary as everyone else on that (version of) that distry
1304 2013-09-25 21:23:40 sphered has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1305 2013-09-25 21:23:45 <sipa> (i think)
1306 2013-09-25 21:23:51 <Luke-Jr> I don't see how that's useful.
1307 2013-09-25 21:24:05 <cfields> perhaps we should take this to the mailing list? seems to usually be pretty unproductive here
1308 2013-09-25 21:24:35 <cfields> sipa: correct. one that's provably tied to a source release
1309 2013-09-25 21:24:53 <gmaxwell> I don't see that there is anything to take to the mailing list. You keep wanting to eliminate building determinstic binaries ourselves. You stand alone in this. No one is asking you to do it— so don't worry about it.
1310 2013-09-25 21:24:53 <warren> cfields: I mean, yes, determinism within a distro is easy.  Just generally relying upon distros to maintain a safe bitcoin build that guards against consensus failure by using the same libraries is not simple.
1311 2013-09-25 21:25:34 <gmaxwell> The concern with distro diversity is consensus failure, as warren noted... esp since distros insist on patching bitcoin as a matter of policy and also patch up our dependencies.
1312 2013-09-25 21:25:52 zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1313 2013-09-25 21:26:00 <sipa> cfields: do you think that'd be something reasonable to accomplish, given how much hackery we already need to make gitian output deterministic?
1314 2013-09-25 21:26:22 <cfields> sipa: local builds are already deterministic
1315 2013-09-25 21:26:47 <cfields> (with added random seed flag)
1316 2013-09-25 21:26:54 <warren> Hi, everyone here agrees win32 gitian is not a problem, could I please have feedback on upgrading the win32 deps or not?
1317 2013-09-25 21:26:57 <cfields> but seems the point is moot
1318 2013-09-25 21:27:34 zeiris has joined
1319 2013-09-25 21:27:41 <sipa> i don't see why we can't have a combination
1320 2013-09-25 21:27:51 <sipa> distros will keep building their own versions
1321 2013-09-25 21:28:10 Edward_Black has joined
1322 2013-09-25 21:28:22 <sipa> if those can be made deterministic - i.e., people doing a local build on ubuntu X get the same binary as the one packaged by ubuntu... that'd be very nice
1323 2013-09-25 21:29:04 <sipa> and by extension, anything built in gitian VM (or weaker confinement) will be deterministic as well, which can remain for our own builds
1324 2013-09-25 21:29:31 <gmaxwell> Yea, that sounds fine.
1325 2013-09-25 21:30:14 <gmaxwell> warren: upgrading the windows deps to make them more like the linux builds makes sense to me. Really I'd like to get win32 on newer gcc, but ... the glibc issue prevents us from doing that and maintaing consistency.
1326 2013-09-25 21:30:33 <warren> gmaxwell: win32?
1327 2013-09-25 21:30:54 <warren> gmaxwell: I'll look at what versions of the deps the distros are shipping and add that to the win32 gitian PR then?
1328 2013-09-25 21:30:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: i don't think insisting on same build env for win32 and linux is that meaningful
1329 2013-09-25 21:31:02 <sipa> *worth it
1330 2013-09-25 21:31:13 <sipa> tbh, i wonder how many people run our linux binaries...
1331 2013-09-25 21:31:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: needing a whole seperate VM for building win32 and linux is unacceptable I think.
1332 2013-09-25 21:31:22 <sipa> (as opposed to self-built or PPA)
1333 2013-09-25 21:31:23 <cfields> local users of the distro likely wouldn't generate the same binaries as those provided by the distro, due to extra flags added. but all users of the distro should be able to regenerate the same binaries using the distro packaging method
1334 2013-09-25 21:31:31 <warren> gmaxwell: are you OK with the sha256sum -c input integrity checking approach?  the PR currently has one example.
1335 2013-09-25 21:32:00 <sipa> cfields: sure, maybe a default build won't match - that's fine
1336 2013-09-25 21:32:13 <sipa> as long as it's easy to get the deterministic build
1337 2013-09-25 21:32:46 <gmaxwell> cfields: uh. What flags are you talking about?
1338 2013-09-25 21:33:09 <cfields> gmaxwell: distros add all kinds of hardening/optim flags
1339 2013-09-25 21:33:43 patcon has joined
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1341 2013-09-25 21:33:51 <gmaxwell> cfields: we'd be fine in the fedora workflow. (the one distro whos packaging workflow I understand isn't one that ships bitcoin though…)
1342 2013-09-25 21:34:10 <cfields> hmm?
1343 2013-09-25 21:34:18 <gmaxwell> cfields: but if they're good flags then perhaps we should consider taking them ourselves.
1344 2013-09-25 21:34:23 <warren> gmaxwell: merge secp256k1! =)
1345 2013-09-25 21:34:32 joesmoe has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1346 2013-09-25 21:34:37 <gmaxwell> warren: I don't actually want them to package it, you know.
1347 2013-09-25 21:34:49 <warren> gmaxwell: yeah, but it'd be easier to build there at least.
1348 2013-09-25 21:34:58 <cfields> gmaxwell: sure, we can pick+choose what makes sense. but likely most distros/versions will differ
1349 2013-09-25 21:35:08 joesmoe has joined
1350 2013-09-25 21:35:26 <Luke-Jr> warren: even with secp256k1 merged, it should still be using a separate package for the lib ;)
1351 2013-09-25 21:35:29 <warren> gmaxwell: if they actually can package it, I can apply pressure to do it in a consensus safe way or not at all.
1352 2013-09-25 21:35:47 <gmaxwell> cfields: in any case, they wouldn't be determnistic for other reasons, distro builder machines have random versions of stuff on them, they don't upgrade in lockstep (I know this is true for fedora and for ubuntu at least)
1353 2013-09-25 21:36:14 <cfields> gmaxwell: for ubuntu, each package is built in a clean vm
1354 2013-09-25 21:36:23 <cfields> very much like gitian
1355 2013-09-25 21:36:30 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1356 2013-09-25 21:36:33 <warren> Luke-Jr: secp256k1 as used by bitcoin I think sipa mentioned would limit its variations of internal implementations to better safeguard consensus?
1357 2013-09-25 21:36:50 patcon has joined
1358 2013-09-25 21:36:57 <gmaxwell> cfields: I know I see PPA builds built with different compiler versions.
1359 2013-09-25 21:37:07 <gmaxwell> when ubuntu has updated the compiler.
1360 2013-09-25 21:37:11 <Luke-Jr> warren: limiting network rules is a softfork
1361 2013-09-25 21:37:21 <warren> Luke-Jr: orthogonal
1362 2013-09-25 21:37:31 <cfields> gmaxwell: same as gitian
1363 2013-09-25 21:37:40 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: he's talking about the internal seperate implementations.
1364 2013-09-25 21:37:44 <Luke-Jr> warren: the only difference is that OpenSSL doesn't care about Bitcoin's needs, and sipa does
1365 2013-09-25 21:37:48 <sipa> Luke-Jr: libsecp256k1 has several implementations for scalar/field operations
1366 2013-09-25 21:37:54 <Luke-Jr> oh
1367 2013-09-25 21:37:58 <Luke-Jr> I don't know about that stuff
1368 2013-09-25 21:38:11 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i said that for use in bitcoin, we should restrict ourself to the minimal possible set
1369 2013-09-25 21:38:16 <gmaxwell> cfields: yes, and gitian is broken in this respect. It's a step forward, but it would actually be relatively simple for an advanced attacker to steal all the bitcoins due to how gitian works.
1370 2013-09-25 21:38:41 <warren> Luke-Jr: so relying on an external lib of it that isn't meant for bitcoin particularly might be unwise.  this is generally why I suggested the internalized libraries be renamed and considered different projects than the upstream.
1371 2013-09-25 21:39:03 <Luke-Jr> warren: that just makes the problems worse
1372 2013-09-25 21:39:10 <sipa> as long as they intend to remain compatible with upstream, i think that's a bad idea
1373 2013-09-25 21:39:15 <warren> Luke-Jr: perhaps for your distro, but not others.
1374 2013-09-25 21:39:18 <sipa> and we certainly have no plans to do so
1375 2013-09-25 21:39:18 ahmedbodi has joined
1376 2013-09-25 21:39:32 <sipa> generally, it's just controlled updating
1377 2013-09-25 21:39:35 <ahmedbodi> hello guys
1378 2013-09-25 21:39:55 <ahmedbodi> does anyone here know if merged mining is enabled on the bitcoin testnet
1379 2013-09-25 21:40:03 <gmaxwell> Ultimately the diversity in libsecp256k1 should go down to one version per platform at most.
1380 2013-09-25 21:40:12 <sipa> ahmedbodi: irrelevant
1381 2013-09-25 21:40:14 <warren> I'll also note that other projects use an entirely different means to enforce that distros don't ship incompatible stuff.  Mozilla relies on Firefox trademark enforcement to ensure Firefox isn't built in a non-standard way in a distro. Debian considered that limitation to be non-free, thus Iceweasel.
1382 2013-09-25 21:40:25 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: Bitcoin does not have anything to do with merged mining at present.
1383 2013-09-25 21:40:36 <sipa> ahmedbodi: miners decide what blocks they creatie - if those have a merged-mining header, they are
1384 2013-09-25 21:40:52 <gmaxwell> warren: it's more complicated than that by far.
1385 2013-09-25 21:41:06 <warren> gmaxwell: of course.
1386 2013-09-25 21:41:12 <gmaxwell> Different concerns, e.g. people shipping malware laden versions under the official name...
1387 2013-09-25 21:41:27 ticean has joined
1388 2013-09-25 21:41:35 <ahmedbodi> sipa: okay ill simplify it, im using p2pool to attempt to merged mine bitcoin and some insignificant crap coin which i've patched with the namecoin MM Patches
1389 2013-09-25 21:41:46 AusBitBank has joined
1390 2013-09-25 21:41:48 * warren facepalm
1391 2013-09-25 21:42:01 <sipa> ahmedbodi: ask in #p2pool maybe? :)
1392 2013-09-25 21:42:16 <ahmedbodi> doublec or someone said that the master coin needs to be patched to support merged mining which for my setup is the bitcoin testnet
1393 2013-09-25 21:42:18 <sipa> not sure they'll like the question, but in any case it doesn't have anything to do with bitcoin
1394 2013-09-25 21:42:22 joesmoe has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1395 2013-09-25 21:42:24 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: that's not true
1396 2013-09-25 21:43:10 <ahmedbodi> Luke-Jr: so i could grab any coin like PPC and merged mine it with namecoin or devcoin then?
1397 2013-09-25 21:43:30 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: yes, but as others keep telling you, off-topic here. pick a channel and I'll join it
1398 2013-09-25 21:43:49 <ahmedbodi> sure
1399 2013-09-25 21:43:50 <ahmedbodi> my chan
1400 2013-09-25 21:43:54 <ahmedbodi> #crypto-expert
1401 2013-09-25 21:46:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: is needing 3 VMs instead of 2 such a horror?
1402 2013-09-25 21:46:54 toffoo has joined
1403 2013-09-25 21:47:08 <sipa> i care much more about the windows builds than the linux builds, tbh
1404 2013-09-25 21:47:24 <sipa> (as for windows, they certainly are the primary source of actually used clients)
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1407 2013-09-25 21:48:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: Seems pretty lame to me... but if there is no better solution.
1408 2013-09-25 21:48:43 patcon has joined
1409 2013-09-25 21:49:35 <warren> Can I please have more certain feedback about what to do about win32's deps?
1410 2013-09-25 21:49:53 <sipa> warren: it'll depend on what we plan on doing with the VMs, i guess
1411 2013-09-25 21:50:24 <warren> sipa: please see my PR: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3029   win32 with newer mingw already working.
1412 2013-09-25 21:50:35 <sipa> yes, i know that
1413 2013-09-25 21:50:36 <warren> sipa: some bikeshedding on deps, some cleanups and it's ready
1414 2013-09-25 21:51:48 <cfields> warren: looks like i was wrong on the ar hacks, btw. new mingw doesn't use deterministic ar by default.
1415 2013-09-25 21:52:00 <cfields> not in raring, anyway
1416 2013-09-25 21:52:18 <warren> cfields: "these should be in bitcoin's configure. The previous toolchain defaulted to static, the new one doesn't. We always want the static behavior with mingw."  what do you mean by this?
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1419 2013-09-25 21:53:46 <cfields> i mean that those flags should be in configure, as building with shared libc for mingw is almost never desired
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1421 2013-09-25 21:54:50 <warren> cfields: right, so should that be in the same PR, or separate?  I'm not exactly sure how to do the autotools part myself
1422 2013-09-25 21:55:15 <cfields> separate. i've verified that it's harmless to the current build
1423 2013-09-25 21:56:03 <warren> ok, submit that PR and let's get it merged as a simple, correct commit that touches nothing else?
1424 2013-09-25 21:56:07 <cfields> well, for that matter, you may as well lump em together
1425 2013-09-25 21:56:23 <warren> suggest patch then?
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1427 2013-09-25 21:57:29 <sipa> warren: i don't object to win32 on precise, nor do i object to upgrading dependencies (reason: if we want to keep up, we'll probably want to keep upgrading anyway, and if there are issues with a particular version and we decide to postpone because of that, we'll likely need to deal with that issue later on anyway)
1428 2013-09-25 21:57:42 <sipa> warren: but maybe we don't want too many different VMs to build on
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1431 2013-09-25 22:00:08 <cfields> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=a89Hvm7Q
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1435 2013-09-25 22:01:37 <warren> sipa: EL6 mingw32 is a little old.  gcc-4.4.6 and boost-1.41, so it wouldn't be an improvement over the current lucid VM>
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1437 2013-09-25 22:01:47 <warren> cfields: want your name on it or squashed?
1438 2013-09-25 22:01:47 <sipa> nah
1439 2013-09-25 22:01:54 <gmaxwell> :-/
1440 2013-09-25 22:02:04 <sipa> and maverick or narwhal...
1441 2013-09-25 22:02:22 <sipa> not even sure which glibc those use
1442 2013-09-25 22:02:37 <cfields> warren: keep that one separate please, but name doesn't matter
1443 2013-09-25 22:02:53 <warren> cfields: just adding that entire commit as is
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1448 2013-09-25 22:11:57 <warren> cfields: umm
1449 2013-09-25 22:11:59 <warren> cfields: http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf-archive/ax_check_link_flag.html
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1451 2013-09-25 22:12:12 <warren> cfields: wouldn't that use -static-* on all builds, not just mingw?
1452 2013-09-25 22:12:24 <warren> cfields: (I seriously need to become educated in autotools)
1453 2013-09-25 22:12:36 <sipa> warren: everybody does
1454 2013-09-25 22:12:46 <cfields> warren: look at it in context
1455 2013-09-25 22:12:56 <warren> ah
1456 2013-09-25 22:15:27 <warren> random offtopic funny: http://familywoodworking.org/forums/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif
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1478 2013-09-25 22:32:47 <gmaxwell> anyone have a node which is reindexed post OP_RETURN change?
1479 2013-09-25 22:32:50 <gmaxwell>     "height" : 260131,
1480 2013-09-25 22:32:53 <gmaxwell>     "hash_serialized" : "3aaf12c01198e57866f361a3485e496bba6359b669bef1f0604413b367f79877",
1481 2013-09-25 22:32:58 <gmaxwell>     "bytes_serialized" : 246570374,
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1483 2013-09-25 22:34:06 <gmaxwell> 8069 bytes saved. whhoo. :P
1484 2013-09-25 22:34:49 <warren> gmaxwell: too bad about all those p2pool unspendable tx's...
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1486 2013-09-25 22:35:12 <gmaxwell> warren: there aren't that many actually.
1487 2013-09-25 22:35:30 <warren> how many blocks per day was p2pool doing early in its life?
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1490 2013-09-25 22:35:41 <gmaxwell> blocks per day???
1491 2013-09-25 22:35:50 <gmaxwell> you mean per week? :P
1492 2013-09-25 22:35:53 <warren> oh =)
1493 2013-09-25 22:36:27 <warren> gmaxwell: we were screwed more ... like 30 blocks a day
1494 2013-09-25 22:36:32 <gmaxwell> there are 182 of the "OP_IFDUP OP_IF OP_2SWAP OP_VERIFY OP_2OVER OP_DEPTH" ones.
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1499 2013-09-25 22:39:40 <longcat> what is this post op return?  upgrade my wallet then run -reindex?
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