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  49 2013-09-26 01:35:19 <HaltingState> has anyone forked ripple yet?
  50 2013-09-26 01:35:32 <HaltingState> maybe wrong channel to ask :)
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  58 2013-09-26 01:43:57 <gmaxwell> [OT] This is enjoyable enough to justify enduring the horiffic typesetting: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1309_14-17_mickens.pdf (it's like Hunter S. Thompson writes about microprocessor design)
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 115 2013-09-26 04:18:51 <warren> anyone know where is a list of variables available during gitian?
 116 2013-09-26 04:18:56 <warren> when it runs the script: |
 117 2013-09-26 04:19:03 <warren> devrandom: ?
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 140 2013-09-26 05:12:10 <gmaxwell> :-/ why are there people who made forum accounts in 2011 responding like this to someone confused by change: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=301677.msg3236870#msg3236870 ?
 141 2013-09-26 05:13:02 aceat64 has joined
 142 2013-09-26 05:13:31 <Neozonz> "Sended"
 143 2013-09-26 05:13:33 * Neozonz chuckles
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 145 2013-09-26 05:14:24 <gmaxwell> sended is a common misuse of english from people with .sv domain names, in my expirence.
 146 2013-09-26 05:16:06 <gangplank> you never had a friend who "got deaded" in a video game?
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 189 2013-09-26 06:59:17 <warren> gmaxwell: Luke-Jr: regarding our discussion earlier today, if we built linux gitian binaries with glibc-2.12, that might mean dropping support for Ubuntu 10.04, is that too soon?
 190 2013-09-26 07:03:17 oleganza has joined
 191 2013-09-26 07:12:09 <xfers> you compromise your security when you click spamlinks with '? in it
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 193 2013-09-26 07:13:30 <sipa> warren: ubuntu 10.04 desktop isn't supported anymore already
 194 2013-09-26 07:15:01 <xfers> and you invoke the all seeing eye echelon when you say n(S)a
 195 2013-09-26 07:15:18 <sipa> xfers: not here
 196 2013-09-26 07:17:23 <xfers> i see it done all the time so this is exactly where
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 200 2013-09-26 07:22:21 <sipa> xfers: take it elsewhere
 201 2013-09-26 07:23:17 <warren> sipa: server is though
 202 2013-09-26 07:23:29 <warren> sipa: (whatever quality of their "support" is...)
 203 2013-09-26 07:24:01 <sipa> yeah
 204 2013-09-26 07:24:20 <warren> it's possible it doens't use any new symbols and 2.11 would work
 205 2013-09-26 07:24:26 <xfers> •sipa• want an ignore?
 206 2013-09-26 07:25:27 <sipa> xfers: take it elsewhere
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 208 2013-09-26 07:27:05 <warren> ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ i686-w64-mingw32-g++ -E -dM $(mktemp --suffix=.h) |grep __VERSION__ |sed 's^\"\(.*\)*\"/^&^'
 209 2013-09-26 07:27:05 <warren> #define __VERSION__ "4.6.3"
 210 2013-09-26 07:27:22 <warren> that looks simple, but that string can be free form, whatever the toolchain packager wants to write in there
 211 2013-09-26 07:27:26 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
 212 2013-09-26 07:27:57 <warren> Diapolo wants me to not hardcode a cosmetic, meaningless number in boost-win32.yml.  I'm giving up.
 213 2013-09-26 07:28:07 <sipa> can't you just use g++ --version?
 214 2013-09-26 07:28:15 <warren> sipa: that's free-form too
 215 2013-09-26 07:28:33 <sipa> how so?
 216 2013-09-26 07:28:39 <warren> sipa: AFAICT there is no way to ask for just the x.y.z version
 217 2013-09-26 07:29:00 patcon has joined
 218 2013-09-26 07:29:08 <warren> (oops, the sed above is meaningless, failed attempt to isolate the number from the quotes)
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 222 2013-09-26 07:30:09 <warren> [warren@localhost ~]$ g++ -E -dM $(mktemp --suffix=.h) |grep __VERSION__
 223 2013-09-26 07:30:09 <warren> #define __VERSION__ "4.8.1 20130603 (Red Hat 4.8.1-1)"
 224 2013-09-26 07:30:12 <warren> sipa: more free form
 225 2013-09-26 07:30:29 <warren> sipa: and that BSD guy yesterday had an entirely different example
 226 2013-09-26 07:30:44 <sipa> g++ --version | head -n1 | sed -e 's/(.*)//g' -e 's/\s\+/ /g' | cut -d ' ' -f 2
 227 2013-09-26 07:30:56 <sipa> gitian is not BSD
 228 2013-09-26 07:31:53 <warren> [warren@localhost ~]$ g++ --version | head -n1 | sed -e 's/(.*)//g' -e 's/\s\+/ /g' | cut -d ' ' -f 2
 229 2013-09-26 07:31:58 <warren> blank output on Fedora
 230 2013-09-26 07:32:26 <sipa> ok, what does the output look like?
 231 2013-09-26 07:32:32 <sipa> of g++ --version
 232 2013-09-26 07:32:43 <warren> [warren@localhost ~]$ g++ --version
 233 2013-09-26 07:32:43 <warren> g++ (GCC) 4.8.1 20130603 (Red Hat 4.8.1-1)
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 235 2013-09-26 07:33:14 <warren> g++ -E -dM $(mktemp --suffix=.h) |grep __VERSION__
 236 2013-09-26 07:33:17 <warren> that might be cleaner to parse
 237 2013-09-26 07:33:25 <warren> the first word is probably the x.y.z
 238 2013-09-26 07:34:21 <sipa> $ g++ -E -dM $(mktemp --suffix=.h) | grep __VERSION__ | cut -d ' ' -f 3 | cut -d '"' -f 2
 239 2013-09-26 07:34:24 <sipa> 4.7.3
 240 2013-09-26 07:35:17 <warren> our sample size of four finds the first word is x.y.z, so let's just assume this is safe
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 243 2013-09-26 07:38:07 <warren> sipa: thanks, all these years and I've never looked at the cut manpage before.
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 248 2013-09-26 07:45:36 <warren> https://github.com/wtogami/bitcoin/commits/win32-oldboost   <--- intermediate step, upgrading only to precise 12.04 without any dep upgrades.
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 269 2013-09-26 08:30:43 <warren> michagogo|cloud: ping
 270 2013-09-26 08:31:27 <warren> michagogo|cloud: I'm going to upgrade ONLY boost for win32.  I need to work on more important things elsewhere.  Do you want to test the stability of the other library upgrades and upgrade the others yourself after my commit is accepted?
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 272 2013-09-26 08:32:00 <warren> michagogo|cloud: I ask because you seem to be very interested in gitian, and you appear to want to learn.
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 301 2013-09-26 09:42:42 <dizko> im seeing something about hub node patches?
 302 2013-09-26 09:43:16 <sipa> ?
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 304 2013-09-26 09:43:52 <dizko> if i want to have several geographically separate bitcoind servers and basically addnode each other
 305 2013-09-26 09:44:00 <dizko> but that takes up all my 8 outbound connections
 306 2013-09-26 09:45:36 <warren> Anyone running win32 bitcoin and can help test experimental builds?
 307 2013-09-26 09:45:54 <dizko> i dont run it but i do run windows on my desk here at home
 308 2013-09-26 09:45:57 <sipa> dizko: just a few -addnode's will do fine
 309 2013-09-26 09:46:04 <sipa> no need to addnode all of them
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 312 2013-09-26 09:46:23 <dizko> the rpc connections suck and i get all this iowait, something isnt sending a fin
 313 2013-09-26 09:46:38 <dizko> so i want to be able to hit all of the servers and count on that they've all seen the same transaction
 314 2013-09-26 09:47:04 <dizko> s/iowait/TIME_WAIT/
 315 2013-09-26 09:48:43 <dizko> it very well may be the python lib that's at fault
 316 2013-09-26 09:48:54 <dizko> (suspect so anyway)
 317 2013-09-26 09:49:21 <sipa> there are some known problems with RPC connections timing out
 318 2013-09-26 09:49:56 <dizko> i admittedly had some stupid code (someone else wrote!) that was calling the daemon excessively
 319 2013-09-26 09:50:17 <dizko> i fixed it mostly though sometimes it crashes because not being able to get a socket
 320 2013-09-26 09:50:50 <dizko> tuned tcp_fin_timeout =)_
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 391 2013-09-26 11:59:50 <Luke-Jr> warren: Ubuntu has already dropped support for 10.04
 392 2013-09-26 12:00:13 <Luke-Jr> warren: and Ubuntu is supported by the PPA anyway
 393 2013-09-26 12:00:21 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 394 2013-09-26 12:02:16 heeventuli has joined
 395 2013-09-26 12:02:31 <sipa> Luke-Jr: not for servers
 396 2013-09-26 12:03:10 <Luke-Jr> sipa: still have PPA and source.
 397 2013-09-26 12:03:14 <sipa> right
 398 2013-09-26 12:03:32 people has joined
 399 2013-09-26 12:03:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr, warren: ironically, i don't think that that many people run our binaries on ubuntu
 400 2013-09-26 12:04:11 <sipa> but on RHEL/CentOS/Fedora, where building locally is significantly harder, perhaps they are
 401 2013-09-26 12:04:39 <Luke-Jr> sounds more and more like we should be building Linux binaries on RHEL 6
 402 2013-09-26 12:04:45 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 403 2013-09-26 12:04:49 <dizko> is ubuntu the preferred build platform?
 404 2013-09-26 12:05:07 patcon has joined
 405 2013-09-26 12:05:09 <warren> If you REALLY want that, I can make a CentOS6 VM installer.
 406 2013-09-26 12:05:11 <sipa> Luke-Jr: RHEL6 has an even older GCC than ubuntu 10.04...
 407 2013-09-26 12:05:17 <sipa> (iirc)
 408 2013-09-26 12:05:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: nope
 409 2013-09-26 12:05:23 <warren> sipa: far better maintained though
 410 2013-09-26 12:05:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: wasn't that your comment?
 411 2013-09-26 12:06:11 <dizko> building anything that uses boost is always a pita on other platforms
 412 2013-09-26 12:06:16 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Ubuntu 10.04 was glibc 2.11; RHEL 6 is 2.12
 413 2013-09-26 12:06:36 <dizko> working on getting it compiled on illumos....uhg
 414 2013-09-26 12:06:40 <warren> what version of gcc is in 10.04?
 415 2013-09-26 12:08:14 <Luke-Jr> Squeeze is still maintained (for an unknown duration) and uses 2.11-ish
 416 2013-09-26 12:10:12 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 418 2013-09-26 12:11:48 <kinlo> debian is usually maintained until releasedate(next)+1y
 419 2013-09-26 12:11:54 <kinlo> so 2014-05 for squeeze
 420 2013-09-26 12:12:29 <warren> hmm... I can write something that works like gitian very quickly, but actually porting gitian to manage rpm/yum VM's I don't have time.
 421 2013-09-26 12:12:40 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: I thought it was just killed when a new release comes out (after the current version)
 422 2013-09-26 12:12:58 <Luke-Jr> warren: getting rid of the Ruby deps would be nice imo :p
 423 2013-09-26 12:13:04 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: no, that would give you zero time to plan/implement your upgrade :)
 424 2013-09-26 12:13:07 <warren> Luke-Jr: I agree actually
 425 2013-09-26 12:13:20 <warren> Luke-Jr: I would do it in python and shell
 426 2013-09-26 12:13:30 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: no, you'd have the whole time-until-next-release
 427 2013-09-26 12:13:39 <Luke-Jr> A, B, C <-- C's release retires A
 428 2013-09-26 12:13:41 <kinlo> ah
 429 2013-09-26 12:13:42 <kinlo> no
 430 2013-09-26 12:13:50 <kinlo> well, that's not the case
 431 2013-09-26 12:13:53 <Luke-Jr> oh well
 432 2013-09-26 12:14:04 <kinlo> given their release schedule of one release per 2-3 years
 433 2013-09-26 12:14:21 <kinlo> that would force them to maintain such old distro's where nobody wants to use them anymore :)
 434 2013-09-26 12:14:44 <warren> Luke-Jr: sipa: I would seriously ask the community if they expect the official binaries to work on Ubuntu 10.04
 435 2013-09-26 12:14:46 MobGod_ has left ()
 436 2013-09-26 12:15:31 <Luke-Jr> warren: "ask the community" isn't simple
 437 2013-09-26 12:16:08 <Luke-Jr> might be easier to grab webserver logs to see how many Ubuntu 10.04 users hit the site
 438 2013-09-26 12:16:35 <warren> 10.04 won't be used by desktops, only servers
 439 2013-09-26 12:16:37 <warren> at this point
 440 2013-09-26 12:16:39 MobGod has joined
 441 2013-09-26 12:17:41 <warren> Luke-Jr: and if folks want a single VM to build 32bit and 64bit binaries, it's quite easy on fedora or EL
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 454 2013-09-26 12:48:46 <runeks> I think there is some database incompatibility between the bitcoind version in the stable Ubuntu PPA and git master. I get ": Corrupted block database detected." running git master.
 455 2013-09-26 12:50:21 <runeks> I was using the version from the PPA first, and then built master and ran that. After doing this and closing this version, running the bitcoind version from the Ubuntu PPA again resulted in a "database corrupted" message. Then I built sipa's branch and it worked fine. But now, when running either sipa's branch or master, I get "corrupted block database detected".
 456 2013-09-26 12:50:32 <runeks> 2013-09-26 12:44:17 Verifying last 288 blocks at level 3
 457 2013-09-26 12:50:32 <runeks> 2013-09-26 12:44:18 ERROR: DisconnectBlock() : outputs still spent? database corrupted
 458 2013-09-26 12:50:32 <runeks> 2013-09-26 12:44:26 ERROR: VerifyDB() : *** coin database inconsistencies found (last 29 blocks, 70483 good transactions before that)
 459 2013-09-26 12:51:02 <kinlo> this has passed in this channel before
 460 2013-09-26 12:51:23 <kinlo> I think it's a known bug that git trunk corrupts it's database somehow
 461 2013-09-26 12:51:28 <kinlo> dunno the details
 462 2013-09-26 12:51:52 <runeks> Oh. I didn't know that. I've used git master before without problems.
 463 2013-09-26 12:52:15 <pankkake> isn't it the bug that was fixed in 0.8.5?
 464 2013-09-26 12:52:15 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 465 2013-09-26 12:52:18 <kinlo> if you run git master you must anticipate these kind of problems
 466 2013-09-26 12:52:30 <kinlo> pankkake: no, it has been introduced after 0.8.5
 467 2013-09-26 12:52:33 MobGod has quit (Excess Flood)
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 469 2013-09-26 12:52:47 <kinlo> 0.8.5 fixes negative transaction versions
 470 2013-09-26 12:52:51 <kinlo> unrelated to this
 471 2013-09-26 12:53:28 <runeks> kinlo: I guess you're right. I only used git master because I wanted the "getblock" hex output function. I didn't get included in 0.8.5 as far as I can see.
 472 2013-09-26 12:53:48 <runeks> s/I didn't/It didn't
 473 2013-09-26 12:54:01 <kinlo> runeks: you can always backport specific pieces of code, I'd recommend doing that instead if you're gonna run in production
 474 2013-09-26 12:54:11 <kinlo> I do that for my wallets anyway
 475 2013-09-26 12:54:27 Toresh has quit (2!~kvirc@77-56-104-26.dclient.hispeed.ch|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 476 2013-09-26 12:54:33 <runeks> kinlo: It's not production. Just personal use. Wanted to create a bootstrap.dat using linearize.py so I could seed it.
 477 2013-09-26 12:54:57 <kinlo> :)
 478 2013-09-26 12:55:55 sacrelege has joined
 479 2013-09-26 12:57:19 <warren> Luke-Jr: I might propose a radically different approach to this.  1) Pick a super long term distro that is well maintained (RHEL6 or RHEL7). 2) Make deterministic builds of entire stacks including target glibc (for Linux builds), the best mingw toolchain we can find, and cfields' mac cross compile toolchain.  3) For any of those targets, build the deps ourselves using identical library versions for all three targets.
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 484 2013-09-26 13:00:46 <warren> If we wait for RHEL7, its native gcc and mingw will be EXCELLENT.  mingw even provides static builds nearly all libraries we use, although we can just build our own like we currently do if we want. Then the only things we need to maintain ourselves as deterministic toolchains is the Linux target glibc and the mac cross-compile toolchain.
 485 2013-09-26 13:01:10 agnostic98 has joined
 486 2013-09-26 13:03:36 <warren> apparently RHEL7 is in the "second half of 2013" and is based on fedora 19.
 487 2013-09-26 13:04:54 <warren> So we can prototype this future solution on fedora 19 now, and use all of that code in a RHEL7-based deterministic environment
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 492 2013-09-26 13:15:08 <Luke-Jr> warren: static = bad
 493 2013-09-26 13:15:09 johnsoft has joined
 494 2013-09-26 13:15:31 <warren> Luke-Jr: static is only for mingw
 495 2013-09-26 13:15:42 <warren> oh hm
 496 2013-09-26 13:16:08 <warren> Luke-Jr: don't we currently make many parts of bitcoin static for linux?
 497 2013-09-26 13:16:18 <Luke-Jr> warren: unfortunately
 498 2013-09-26 13:16:34 <Luke-Jr> warren: and static = bad in general, especially on Windows where there's no excuse for it :P
 499 2013-09-26 13:16:52 <Luke-Jr> Linux binaries have the excuse of better compatibility at least
 500 2013-09-26 13:17:01 <Luke-Jr> (although dynmaically linking glibc would seem to negate that)
 501 2013-09-26 13:17:07 jevin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 502 2013-09-26 13:17:13 <wumpus> so what would you propose for windows? install a slew of dlls?
 503 2013-09-26 13:17:24 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yep, in the application directory
 504 2013-09-26 13:18:06 <wumpus> there's quite a few games for linux that do the same btw, just package .so's in the application directory (and a script to set LD_LIBRARY_PATH)  instead of static linking
 505 2013-09-26 13:18:10 <warren> I'm suggesting we use the newest long term support distro to build everything need.  Everything will be a cross compile to an extent.
 506 2013-09-26 13:18:29 <wumpus> then again, that's completely orthogonal to what distribution is used for building
 507 2013-09-26 13:19:19 <sipa> if you're installing .dll's in the application directory anyway, what's the point of it?
 508 2013-09-26 13:19:30 <wumpus> sharing between executables
 509 2013-09-26 13:19:33 <sipa> oh
 510 2013-09-26 13:19:38 <wumpus> ie, if you have bitcoind and bitcoin-qt
 511 2013-09-26 13:19:39 <sipa> yeah, that makes sense
 512 2013-09-26 13:21:01 jevin has joined
 513 2013-09-26 13:21:09 <warren> OTOH, why again are we upgrading from 10.04 for linux?
 514 2013-09-26 13:21:21 <sipa> newer gcc?
 515 2013-09-26 13:21:38 <warren> all the problems i experienced where with mingw on 10.04.  gcc on 10.04 for linux builds were fine.
 516 2013-09-26 13:21:45 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: on Windows, you don't need to do anything fancy for it :p
 517 2013-09-26 13:21:48 <sipa> or because we don't want 2-3-4 images...
 518 2013-09-26 13:22:02 <wumpus> also if you have any kind of plugin system that loads dynamic libraries, you'll have a hard time with statically linked everything
 519 2013-09-26 13:22:04 <warren> 2-3-4 images is the least of our problems
 520 2013-09-26 13:22:06 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 521 2013-09-26 13:22:19 <Luke-Jr> sipa: also, if your system has other applications using the same DLLs, you could delete the ones we install to use the shared ones
 522 2013-09-26 13:22:27 <Luke-Jr> (for power users)
 523 2013-09-26 13:22:32 <wumpus> we'd need a 10.04 and a 12.04 image, not 3 or 4 right/
 524 2013-09-26 13:22:52 <warren> two 10.04's and 12.04 currently
 525 2013-09-26 13:23:03 <sipa> wumpus: currently, with warren's pullreq, 12.04 for windows, and a 32bit and a 64bit for linux
 526 2013-09-26 13:23:24 <wumpus> why two 10.04? it's very much possible to build 32 and 64 bit linux from the same image right?
 527 2013-09-26 13:23:32 <sipa> yes
 528 2013-09-26 13:23:36 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: please don't recommend that to anyone
 529 2013-09-26 13:23:36 <sipa> but we currently don't :)
 530 2013-09-26 13:23:36 <warren> I'm totally serious about the 1VM solution, cross compile everything.
 531 2013-09-26 13:24:06 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: if it isn't obvious, they're probably  not power user enough to do it safely ;p
 532 2013-09-26 13:24:11 <sipa> warren: one 64-bit 12.04 right now ought to be enough for everyone
 533 2013-09-26 13:24:22 jevin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 534 2013-09-26 13:24:23 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: imagine all the pains of bdb or leveldb interface is slightly shifted
 535 2013-09-26 13:24:36 <sipa> except for dropping RHEL6 and Ubuntu Lucid support
 536 2013-09-26 13:25:15 patcon has joined
 537 2013-09-26 13:25:16 <sipa> i don't care that much about dropping lucid
 538 2013-09-26 13:25:29 <sipa> and i'm not familiar enough with the RH-based world to judge the rest
 539 2013-09-26 13:25:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: and Debian
 540 2013-09-26 13:25:29 <wumpus> me neither, but RHEL6 may be a bigger issue
 541 2013-09-26 13:25:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Ubuntu 12.04 drops support for everything except Ubuntu and Gentoo
 542 2013-09-26 13:26:12 agricocb has joined
 543 2013-09-26 13:26:33 <sipa> yeah :(
 544 2013-09-26 13:27:39 <warren> RHEL6 support on everything is through 2020
 545 2013-09-26 13:27:42 <Luke-Jr> (and Gentoo users aren't going to be using it in any case)
 546 2013-09-26 13:27:45 <warren> RHEL7 through 2023
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 548 2013-09-26 13:28:32 <wumpus> why not just build a newer mingw-64 for ubuntu 10.04?
 549 2013-09-26 13:29:01 <wumpus> that'd solve the windows issue too
 550 2013-09-26 13:29:15 <wumpus> maybe it's not possible due to some other incompatible library, but heh...
 551 2013-09-26 13:29:26 <sipa> wumpus: that still leaves us on an ancient gcc for linux builds
 552 2013-09-26 13:29:38 <sipa> which means no C++11, no LTO, ...
 553 2013-09-26 13:29:43 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: Ubuntu 10.04 is unsupportedish
 554 2013-09-26 13:30:02 <wumpus> but is it using a newer gcc that drops support for older linux distrubitions? or could we use a new gcc with older glibc
 555 2013-09-26 13:30:11 <warren> RHEL7 is supported until 2023,ships with awesome mingw and native gcc compiler, and there's workarounds for the glibc issue.
 556 2013-09-26 13:30:14 <wumpus> what is the part that breaks compatibility?
 557 2013-09-26 13:30:23 <warren> mac deterministic toolchain will be the same problem on any distro
 558 2013-09-26 13:30:26 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: any part we dynamic link
 559 2013-09-26 13:30:28 <sipa> wumpus: glibc is what breaks compatibility, afaik
 560 2013-09-26 13:30:38 <sipa> as we statically link libgcc, afaik
 561 2013-09-26 13:30:47 <warren> so picking a distro that takes care of the hardest parts for us in the long-term is likely a good idea
 562 2013-09-26 13:30:48 <wumpus> ok, so only glibc
 563 2013-09-26 13:30:58 <sipa> so we need old libc + new gcc :)
 564 2013-09-26 13:31:13 <Luke-Jr> can we live with 10.04 until RHEL 7 is released?
 565 2013-09-26 13:31:21 <wumpus> yes, we need to fi the glibc version, but keep up with gcc upgrades somehow
 566 2013-09-26 13:31:24 <sipa> why would we switch to RHEL?
 567 2013-09-26 13:31:33 <wumpus> I wonder how other linux binary projects handle this
 568 2013-09-26 13:31:38 <sipa> or does it have an old libc?
 569 2013-09-26 13:31:39 <warren> Luke-Jr: yes, although we can begin dev on Fedora 19 which is very similar to RHEL7
 570 2013-09-26 13:31:48 <sipa> wumpus: i expect them not to deal with it at all
 571 2013-09-26 13:31:57 <sipa> wumpus: just have binaries for each platform
 572 2013-09-26 13:32:01 <Luke-Jr> warren: wait, why are we assuming RHEL 7 will have an old libc?
 573 2013-09-26 13:32:08 <wumpus> would it be possible to build a old-glibc toolchain on ubuntu 12.04? like a cross compiler to old-libc?
 574 2013-09-26 13:32:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: RHEL 6 has the oldest libc of all the mainstream distros
 575 2013-09-26 13:32:51 <warren> Luke-Jr: not assuming, it wlil have a new glibc, we will need to provide our own glibc (as yet another deterministic dep we build ourself)
 576 2013-09-26 13:33:08 <Luke-Jr> meh, RHEL 6 seems ideal then
 577 2013-09-26 13:33:20 <sipa> but RHEL6 also has an ancient gcc, no?
 578 2013-09-26 13:33:24 <sipa> http://www.trevorpounds.com/blog/?p=103
 579 2013-09-26 13:33:28 <warren> Luke-Jr: RHEL7 has the awesome native mingw and gcc
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 581 2013-09-26 13:33:33 <wumpus> so in that case at least we only have to build an old libc, not gcc and binutils and the whole shebang
 582 2013-09-26 13:33:35 <Luke-Jr> warren: good for windows
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 584 2013-09-26 13:34:31 <wumpus> though I suppose gcc versions have a minimum compatible libc version
 585 2013-09-26 13:34:35 <warren> we may not have to build our own glibc for that, just copy one from an earlier distro
 586 2013-09-26 13:34:57 <wumpus> but it may be a while until we run into that...
 587 2013-09-26 13:36:03 <warren> sipa: Luke-Jr: for 0.9 release 10.04 + 12.04 win32 is adequate.
 588 2013-09-26 13:36:31 <wumpus> agreed, and easy to do
 589 2013-09-26 13:36:39 <sipa> agree for me as well
 590 2013-09-26 13:36:54 <sipa> though gavin didn't seem very keen on needing 3 VMs
 591 2013-09-26 13:36:57 <Luke-Jr> ^
 592 2013-09-26 13:37:02 <sipa> i don't think 2 or 3 matters that much
 593 2013-09-26 13:37:08 <warren> irrelevant
 594 2013-09-26 13:37:11 <wumpus> it's only temporary
 595 2013-09-26 13:37:21 <Luke-Jr> not for me :P
 596 2013-09-26 13:37:25 <Luke-Jr> but I don't care that much
 597 2013-09-26 13:37:26 <warren> mind you, the RHEL7 VM will be larger
 598 2013-09-26 13:37:34 <Luke-Jr> warren: why? :/
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 600 2013-09-26 13:37:50 <sipa> warren: is it possible to build with old glibc on RHEL7?
 601 2013-09-26 13:37:52 <warren> Luke-Jr: you want one VM to build 32bit and 64bit?
 602 2013-09-26 13:37:55 <Luke-Jr> no reason a minimal install shouldn't be like 100 MB :/
 603 2013-09-26 13:37:58 <wumpus> I don't care either, what's the disadvantage of another VM? just more disk usage?
 604 2013-09-26 13:37:59 <warren> sipa: yes
 605 2013-09-26 13:38:02 <wumpus> meh
 606 2013-09-26 13:38:12 <sipa> wumpus: i think that's it... plus the time to create it
 607 2013-09-26 13:38:17 <warren> meh
 608 2013-09-26 13:38:42 <warren> wumpus: review of my PR please?  I addressed everything so far.
 609 2013-09-26 13:38:48 <wumpus> creating it is a one-time process
 610 2013-09-26 13:39:02 <sipa> warren: but the same can be done on any ubuntu, i suppose?
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 612 2013-09-26 13:40:19 <wumpus> warren: I'll take a look
 613 2013-09-26 13:41:09 <warren> wumpus: I stopped short of upgrading all win32 deps because lesser skilled devs in training can do that and test it.
 614 2013-09-26 13:42:17 enikanorov has joined
 615 2013-09-26 13:42:51 <wumpus> warren: the boost patch, is it very large? if not, could we just include it instead of making people download another dependency?
 616 2013-09-26 13:43:16 <warren> wumpus: very large
 617 2013-09-26 13:43:42 <wumpus> argh, maybe that's why upstream refuses it too
 618 2013-09-26 13:43:49 <warren> wumpus: no
 619 2013-09-26 13:44:03 <warren> wumpus: upstream refuses it because the windows dev is an ass
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 621 2013-09-26 13:44:36 <wumpus> okay
 622 2013-09-26 13:44:55 <warren> distros are shipping it
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 624 2013-09-26 13:48:15 <warren> sipa: better question is which old glibc we want to target
 625 2013-09-26 13:48:21 <warren> sipa: and that target can change
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 627 2013-09-26 13:48:49 <warren> sipa: this will also require autotools hacks that I don't know how to do.
 628 2013-09-26 13:51:17 <wumpus> warren: please update the release-process.md to download the patch, too
 629 2013-09-26 13:51:55 <wumpus> apart from that changes look ok
 630 2013-09-26 13:53:10 <helo> is make supposed to be trying to create /src?
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 632 2013-09-26 13:54:30 <warren> wumpus: oops ok
 633 2013-09-26 13:55:16 <warren> sipa: same can be done from ubuntu, but might as well pick a distro that is supported the longest.
 634 2013-09-26 13:55:52 <wumpus> most of the devs have experience with ubuntu though, don't know about RHEL
 635 2013-09-26 13:56:15 <warren> gitian is already a black box.  you hit "GO" and it spits out binaries.
 636 2013-09-26 13:56:40 <wumpus> that's true to a certain extent, but we shouldn't make it even harder to support our own stuff
 637 2013-09-26 13:57:12 <warren> wumpus: the parts of gitian that matter have almost nothing todo with ubntu
 638 2013-09-26 13:57:36 <wumpus> it's not like using a different linux distribution is rocket science, but ie the names of dependency packages are all different for RHEL
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 640 2013-09-26 13:58:18 <warren> wumpus: with a single VM approach + target alt glibc + mac cross compiler, the external tool that launches it copies in all inputs, and we can have the same inputs used by all builds.  can't beat that for consensus safety.
 641 2013-09-26 13:58:50 <warren> wumpus: do we want to use the distro packages at all though?
 642 2013-09-26 13:58:55 <wumpus> but that'd be just as possible with ubuntu; I'm not convinced of switching to another distro, but if other devs agree it's fine with me...
 643 2013-09-26 13:59:41 <wumpus> warren: yes, you don't want to build the whole thing from scratch do you?
 644 2013-09-26 13:59:58 <warren> wumpus: we already do for win32
 645 2013-09-26 14:00:01 <wumpus> like LFS/Gentoo instead of RHEL
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 647 2013-09-26 14:00:22 <wumpus> oh you mean just the libraries
 648 2013-09-26 14:00:52 <wumpus> still, starting from libc/libgcc that can be a pretty big compile
 649 2013-09-26 14:01:20 <warren> leading candidate for the next linux builder was RHEL6 because it is maintained until year 2020, but I suggest it isn't worth it over 10.04, nearly the same compiler and still broken mingw
 650 2013-09-26 14:02:09 <wumpus> but why? if we switch to 12.04 LTS that's also supported for a long time, and if it's not supported anymore it's time to switch to the new LTS
 651 2013-09-26 14:02:34 <warren> wumpus: 12.04 built linux binaries can't run on RHEL6
 652 2013-09-26 14:02:38 <KillYourTV> as an outsider: If you don't want to use the distro packages I don't see why the distro switch would help anything. If you're using your own source tarballs for the libraries, "supported the longest" doesn't really change very much, does it?
 653 2013-09-26 14:02:55 <wumpus> it's not necessary to use a distribution that's maintained until the year 2525
 654 2013-09-26 14:02:57 <wumpus> KillYourTV: exactly!
 655 2013-09-26 14:03:57 <warren> wumpus: looking at the desires of "least amount of stuff to maintain" and "we want fewer VM's", RHEL7 has excellent toolchains and the least amount of extra crap to maintain
 656 2013-09-26 14:04:54 <sipa> if things continue the way they're going, i'm inclined to use gentoo/lfs as a host :D
 657 2013-09-26 14:05:02 <wumpus> sipa: yep
 658 2013-09-26 14:05:16 <sipa> and just build using the oldest libc possible, and the most recent (stable) gcc
 659 2013-09-26 14:05:22 <sipa> and maybe update once a year
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 667 2013-09-26 14:07:46 <helo> why VM, and not just chroot?
 668 2013-09-26 14:08:03 <KillYourTV> IMHO, as long as the host distro with the old-as-hell libc can still be installled, "it's fine". It's not like you're using $ancient_host_distro's $ancient_dependencies.
 669 2013-09-26 14:08:28 <sipa> helo: we should try that, and see how deterministic it is
 670 2013-09-26 14:08:43 <KillYourTV> and indeed, why not chroot or lxc with VM as a option.
 671 2013-09-26 14:08:49 <warren> helo: there's security isolation reasons
 672 2013-09-26 14:08:50 <sipa> lxc already works
 673 2013-09-26 14:08:58 <warren> helo: gitian VM's aren't allowed network access
 674 2013-09-26 14:09:30 <wumpus> helo: you shouldn't even need a chroot; a cross-toolchain doesn't have to be based in the root
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 676 2013-09-26 14:10:18 <helo> why shouldn't the VM be allowed network access?
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 678 2013-09-26 14:10:42 <helo> not that it needs it... but presumably the VM can be trusted
 679 2013-09-26 14:10:59 <wumpus> as long as you build *everything* including your toolchain (ie, something like buildroot)
 680 2013-09-26 14:11:08 <wumpus> helo: determinism
 681 2013-09-26 14:11:17 <wumpus> networks are always non-deterministic
 682 2013-09-26 14:11:24 <sipa> well, presumably the host doesn't access network anyway
 683 2013-09-26 14:11:36 <sipa> but why rely on trusting that it doesn't, rather than making sure you don't need trust
 684 2013-09-26 14:11:41 <sipa> trust is easy
 685 2013-09-26 14:12:00 <wumpus> having all inputs ready on the file system is what you want
 686 2013-09-26 14:12:09 <warren> wumpus: added the patch to release-process.md
 687 2013-09-26 14:12:15 <wumpus> warren: cool
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 689 2013-09-26 14:13:05 <warren> I can very easily limit a RHEL-like VM to only yum access, like gitian limits to only apt
 690 2013-09-26 14:13:33 <warren> a squid recipe can act as reverse proxy cache like apt-cacher-ng
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 694 2013-09-26 14:20:01 <warren> wumpus: anyhow, moving to a single VM to build everything probably isn't worthwhile until we have the mac crosscompile. cfields really deserves to be paid for that work.  I hope we can get the community to support this goal.
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 696 2013-09-26 14:21:43 <warren> sipa: hmm... "Modern g++, so we can start using for example C++11 features and -flto"
 697 2013-09-26 14:21:51 <warren> sipa: will that require a new libstdc++ ABI?
 698 2013-09-26 14:22:26 <sipa> warren: not familiar enough with that
 699 2013-09-26 14:22:49 <warren> sipa: there's ways of building things that target old glibc without having old glibc, but I think people will hate the ugly code in bitcoin
 700 2013-09-26 14:23:26 <warren> if the libstdc++ ABI needs to break, we're stuck on the single linux build thing
 701 2013-09-26 14:23:48 <sipa> but again... i care much more about windows gitian builds than linux ones
 702 2013-09-26 14:24:38 <warren> sleep
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 747 2013-09-26 15:40:26 <runeks> Anyone have the txid of that transaction that contains code for a javascript alert() in its output, which wasn't escaped by blockchain.info?
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 754 2013-09-26 15:46:27 <runeks> Cause it seems like blockchain.info fixed this issue, but failed to simultaneously add support for properly escaping block coinbases: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1n57uj/im_attempting_to_reach_a_security_contact_at/ccfq8k5
 755 2013-09-26 15:46:35 asa1024 has quit (Quit: asa1024)
 756 2013-09-26 15:47:44 <Luke-Jr> runeks: blockchain.info is kinda off-topic here
 757 2013-09-26 15:47:54 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Fair enough.
 758 2013-09-26 15:48:17 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Is there any place more suited for this besides #bitcoin?'
 759 2013-09-26 15:48:25 <runeks> Should we have #bitcoin-security?
 760 2013-09-26 15:48:29 <Luke-Jr> there used to be a channel, but it apparently disappeared :/
 761 2013-09-26 15:48:46 <Luke-Jr> security issues are usually discussed in private
 762 2013-09-26 15:49:00 <Luke-Jr> I'd suggest emailing PiUK unless it's just educational
 763 2013-09-26 15:49:03 <kinlo> also, this is a security issue for a specific cloud service
 764 2013-09-26 15:49:19 <kinlo> so talk to piuk, he's the only one who can help
 765 2013-09-26 15:49:54 <Luke-Jr> there are likely people reading logs of this channel just waiting to jump on anything exploitable
 766 2013-09-26 15:50:20 <runeks> Blockchain.info is aware of the exploit.
 767 2013-09-26 15:50:25 <Luke-Jr> k
 768 2013-09-26 15:50:28 <runeks> And actually disclosed it themselves.
 769 2013-09-26 15:50:34 <runeks> They don't consider it a problem.
 770 2013-09-26 15:50:39 <runeks> But yeah, OT :)
 771 2013-09-26 15:51:25 <gmaxwell> "and since since coinbase scripts are limited to 100 bytes the exploit would have to be less than 100 characters" ...
 772 2013-09-26 15:51:50 <kinlo> gmaxwell: I think you can do a remote include of a file in 100 bytes :)
 773 2013-09-26 15:51:52 <runeks> gmaxwell: <script src="http://t.co/short">
 774 2013-09-26 15:52:05 <gmaxwell> Yes, thats what I was remarking.
 775 2013-09-26 15:52:12 <runeks> gmaxwell: Oh, I see :)
 776 2013-09-26 15:52:32 <gmaxwell> I considered doing that in my example.
 777 2013-09-26 15:52:35 <kinlo> runeks: you will need a a document.write, but still, not 100 chars
 778 2013-09-26 15:52:52 <Luke-Jr> should I have Eligius mine a block that sources an arbitrary script from our webserver? <.<
 779 2013-09-26 15:52:54 <runeks> gmaxwell: Did you create the alert() example?
 780 2013-09-26 15:52:59 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 781 2013-09-26 15:53:07 <Luke-Jr> who was that "yes" to? :p
 782 2013-09-26 15:53:08 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Yes! Do one with a scary javascript popup :)
 783 2013-09-26 15:53:13 <gmaxwell> runeks
 784 2013-09-26 15:53:19 <gmaxwell> I'd warned them about it previously.
 785 2013-09-26 15:53:33 <Luke-Jr> runeks: otoh, it would make our webserver a useful target for crackers..
 786 2013-09-26 15:53:39 <gmaxwell> I decided to not remote load a script just so I couldn't be accused of serving different ones to different people.
 787 2013-09-26 15:53:59 <Luke-Jr> ^ that too
 788 2013-09-26 15:54:03 <runeks> gmaxwell: Plus, the operators of the short-url service could change the content.
 789 2013-09-26 15:54:28 <gmaxwell> They really need to move the mywallet domain to something that doesn't display random content from elsewhere...
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 792 2013-09-26 15:54:41 <runeks> True.
 793 2013-09-26 15:54:52 <gmaxwell> runeks: .. uh you'd have to be mad to use a URL shortener for something like that. :P
 794 2013-09-26 15:55:34 <runeks> Perhaps. 100 chars should be enough.
 795 2013-09-26 15:55:36 <Luke-Jr> you could use an onion address.. and then realise nobody with tor support uses an online wallet
 796 2013-09-26 15:55:37 <Luke-Jr> :P
 797 2013-09-26 15:55:54 <runeks> Are subdomains included in the same-site origin policy?
 798 2013-09-26 15:56:57 <runeks> I'll answer my own question: it's sufficient to put user content on a different subdomain.
 799 2013-09-26 15:57:35 <gmaxwell> runeks: document.write('\x3Cscript type="text/javascript" src="/eligius.st/a">\x3C/script>');  is only 79 bytes.
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 827 2013-09-26 16:46:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"<gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think what warren is pointing out is that gitian downloads stuff at runtime from untrusted/unsecured sources. So if someone compromises one of those you get a mystery binary, but it'll all match."
 828 2013-09-26 16:46:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It doesn't, unless you count the github repo. (Still scrolled up, will take a while to see responses)
 829 2013-09-26 16:47:21 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: IIRC the procedure has you apply updates before starting.
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 836 2013-09-26 17:01:12 <gmaxwell> runeks: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1n57uj/im_attempting_to_reach_a_security_contact_at/ccfus83
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 839 2013-09-26 17:04:48 <runeks> gmaxwell: Wow. I think I'll stay on the Bitcoin wallet by Andreas Schildbach after this. BTW, what KDF does BC.i use, and what does Bitcoin Qt use?
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 841 2013-09-26 17:06:30 <runeks> I initially thought Javascript cryptography in the browser was brilliant, but after reading this I'm not so sure: http://www.matasano.com/articles/javascript-cryptography/
 842 2013-09-26 17:06:40 <runeks> That just adds to the already existing issues of BC.i
 843 2013-09-26 17:07:17 <tgs3> javascript usually has insecure implemntation, however that might change
 844 2013-09-26 17:07:29 <tgs3> e.g. #mempo secure linux aims to fix that
 845 2013-09-26 17:07:50 * helo upvotes
 846 2013-09-26 17:08:01 <gcX46> it still amazes me that people with significant amounts of Bitcoins would use a web wallet
 847 2013-09-26 17:08:06 <gmaxwell> runeks: It "claims" to use PBKDF2 (I think with sha256), but ... it only applies 10 iterations and it's "salted" by just the hash of the passowrd or something like that. (so not salted at all).
 848 2013-09-26 17:09:24 <gmaxwell> runeks: Bitcoin-qt uses a PBKDF2 like iteration which is part of openssl with SHA2-512 and as many iterations as the user can do in 100ms (subject to a minimum of 25,000) and stores a real random salt.
 849 2013-09-26 17:10:24 <runeks> gmaxwell: Cool. Yeah salting with a hash of the password is pointless. Makes it seem like they don't understand the purpose of a salt in the first place.
 850 2013-09-26 17:10:40 * Luke-Jr wouldn't be surprised <.<
 851 2013-09-26 17:10:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|<cfields> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=a89Hvm7Q <-- I didn't know that you can share git commits out of band like that... How do you export/import that? (Still scrolled up)
 852 2013-09-26 17:10:54 <runeks> I think Armory uses scrypt, with a 250 ms target.
 853 2013-09-26 17:11:04 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: git am
 854 2013-09-26 17:11:17 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: but it isn't as good as pull/push
 855 2013-09-26 17:11:25 <Luke-Jr> more like cherry-picking
 856 2013-09-26 17:11:31 <gmaxwell> runeks: we decided not to because it was pretty new and required a bunch of additional third party code. But we left in a byte to let us add it later.
 857 2013-09-26 17:11:35 <Luke-Jr> (well, git's "cherry picking")
 858 2013-09-26 17:12:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: relatively speaking, isn't scrypt *still* pretty new? :P
 859 2013-09-26 17:12:36 <gmaxwell> runeks: in practice what we have seems basically good enough. I think for a new wallet format I'd prefer to migrate to cantina... but yet again, a new function. (though it's very derrivitave of scrypt)
 860 2013-09-26 17:13:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it has had a lot more attention on it since then, as evidenced by the existance of cantina fixing flaws in it.
 861 2013-09-26 17:13:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: finding cantina on google is hard :/
 862 2013-09-26 17:13:44 <Luke-Jr> even 'cantina scrypt' gets google doing a non-optional rewrite to star wars terms :|
 863 2013-09-26 17:15:08 <runeks> What about PBKDF(scrypt(cantina()))? Is that silly?
 864 2013-09-26 17:15:26 <gmaxwell> helps if I spell it right! Catena http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/525
 865 2013-09-26 17:15:44 <gmaxwell> runeks: no, that would actually undo some of catena's fixes arguably.
 866 2013-09-26 17:15:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, :)
 867 2013-09-26 17:16:33 bbrian has joined
 868 2013-09-26 17:16:39 <phantomcircuit> i like how just dice relies on the result of HMAC-SHA512(client_nonce + counter, server_key) being a surprise to the client
 869 2013-09-26 17:16:39 <gmaxwell> runeks: it fixes two things: scrypt allows a bit too much computation / memory tradeoff, and it leaks information about its input data in a cache side channel.
 870 2013-09-26 17:16:48 <phantomcircuit> something tells me that's no a great idea
 871 2013-09-26 17:16:51 Dyaheon- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 872 2013-09-26 17:17:40 <runeks> So catena(PBKDF(scrypt()))? :)
 873 2013-09-26 17:18:18 <runeks> But perhaps that's just making it too complicated, even if it would help somewhat.
 874 2013-09-26 17:18:20 <gmaxwell> runeks: in all cases if you use scrypt another process on your system (e.g. js in another tab perhaps!) can learn some data about your password by observing timings.
 875 2013-09-26 17:19:07 <runeks> gmaxwell: Oh, doh. So crypt should be the last function to be executed. But I guess it doesn't make sense to use scrypt if catena is scrypt+something extra.
 876 2013-09-26 17:20:23 <gmaxwell> catena is just a restructuring of scrypt pretty much.
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 879 2013-09-26 17:24:04 <runeks> Right. But as far as I can tell, nesting (memory-hard) hash functions gives the security of the strongest function in the chain for pre-image attacks.
 880 2013-09-26 17:24:28 <runeks> But again, it's not necessarily worth it, because of added complexity.
 881 2013-09-26 17:24:37 ticean has joined
 882 2013-09-26 17:25:28 <gmaxwell> runeks: plus it reduces their memory hardness, and it exposes you to the timing attack weaknesses of the weakest one.
 883 2013-09-26 17:25:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, shouldn't the timing attack information only help you find the hash which the hash is hashing
 884 2013-09-26 17:26:04 <phantomcircuit> unless it's the inner most hash
 885 2013-09-26 17:26:48 <phantomcircuit> so something that's fairly side channel hard like the sha functions which operate in essentially constant time at the core followed by whatever
 886 2013-09-26 17:26:48 <runeks> gmaxwell: Right. As for timing attacks, I guess you need to put the weakest/newest function last in the chain, since this would only allow you to find the output of the other, presumably stronger, functions.
 887 2013-09-26 17:26:59 <phantomcircuit> as long as whatever isn't more vulnerable to a pre image?
 888 2013-09-26 17:28:49 <runeks> gmaxwell: What do you mean by it reducing their memory hardness though?
 889 2013-09-26 17:29:20 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no, even if its the outer most hash its a sieve that speeds up your search.
 890 2013-09-26 17:30:05 <runeks> ;;blocks
 891 2013-09-26 17:30:07 <gribble> 260263
 892 2013-09-26 17:30:12 <gmaxwell> runeks: makes the security less dependant on the cost of having lots of fast transistors, because you could reuse the same memory for each step.
 893 2013-09-26 17:30:14 <Luke-Jr> runeks: the more CPU time spent, the less memory-hard it is
 894 2013-09-26 17:31:08 <Luke-Jr> IMO, an ideal memory-as-POW algorithm would need to use near zero CPU time
 895 2013-09-26 17:31:21 <Luke-Jr> (slightly shifting topic with that tho)
 896 2013-09-26 17:32:01 <Luke-Jr> (and of course this doesn't solve the problem of memoryhard algorithms not being POW-capable yet)
 897 2013-09-26 17:32:48 <runeks> I don't see why we would even want to use memory-hard POW algorithms.
 898 2013-09-26 17:33:15 <Luke-Jr> runeks: at this point, probably not need
 899 2013-09-26 17:33:26 <Luke-Jr> if it were possible, however, it would have made ASICs available from day 1
 900 2013-09-26 17:34:01 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, how? i mean beyond reducing the effect of the outer hash of course
 901 2013-09-26 17:34:18 <phantomcircuit> ie scrypt(sha256()) becomes more like sha256()
 902 2013-09-26 17:34:32 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: right, if the other hash is 1/3rd of your cpu time, you can get a speedup vs the honest user using side information that lets you sieve at that step.
 903 2013-09-26 17:34:52 <runeks> I mean, Bitcoin ASICs use enough resources as it is, no reason for them to also need fast memory. Then again, it could, perhaps, accelerate the development of faster memory, because you'd have a large advantage in mining.
 904 2013-09-26 17:35:05 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: right and what you care about is the time ratio tolerance between the honest user and the attacker, so any speedup the attacker gets is a direct reduction in your security margin... as the honest user is doing computation that does them no good.
 905 2013-09-26 17:35:43 <Luke-Jr> runeks: bitcoin ASICs had to be developed. if we had a memory-based POW, every PC would have had the ASICs in 2009
 906 2013-09-26 17:35:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, except the attacker would need to have an open side channel which is arguably much more actual work :)
 907 2013-09-26 17:36:02 <runeks> Luke-Jr: GPU?
 908 2013-09-26 17:36:35 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, for most applications an attacker getting a 2-3x improvement over honest users isn't a big deal
 909 2013-09-26 17:36:43 <phantomcircuit> especially for password comparisons
 910 2013-09-26 17:37:08 <phantomcircuit> since realistically an attacker is usually going to have a GPU and the users just will use their CPU
 911 2013-09-26 17:37:42 <Luke-Jr> runeks: RAM
 912 2013-09-26 17:37:50 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, but why add complexity to create that weakness.
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 916 2013-09-26 17:38:52 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Well, yeah, but that's not specific enough. Specialized ASICs would undoubtedly appear, even if only 10x as fast, and make CPU mining unprofitable.
 917 2013-09-26 17:39:19 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, as a precaution against the hash function being used being completely broken, then again for bitcoin purposes everything might as well be sha256 since if that's significantly broken at least we'll all know about it really quickly
 918 2013-09-26 17:39:20 <Luke-Jr> runeks: that's the point. specialised ASICs for a memory-based POW is RAM itself
 919 2013-09-26 17:39:20 <phantomcircuit> :)
 920 2013-09-26 17:39:24 <Luke-Jr> runeks: everyone already has it
 921 2013-09-26 17:39:32 <runeks> Only these ASICs would also need a lot of RAM, and thus probably require even more power than SHA256 ASICs, and also remove a lot of RAM from other uses, thus increasing prices.
 922 2013-09-26 17:39:47 mologie has joined
 923 2013-09-26 17:39:51 <Luke-Jr> runeks: there wouldn't be anything besides RAM
 924 2013-09-26 17:40:02 wei_ has joined
 925 2013-09-26 17:40:19 <runeks> Luke-Jr: RAM comes in different speeds though. I'm sure someone would be able to develop RAM with faster access times than DRAM.
 926 2013-09-26 17:40:30 <Luke-Jr> great, faster RAM is normal
 927 2013-09-26 17:40:35 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, RAM is actually extremely slow, memory hard functions need to fit all of their memory usage into cache to be as fast as asics except different cpus have different cache sizes so all bets are off
 928 2013-09-26 17:40:55 <runeks> Is anything faster than SRAM?
 929 2013-09-26 17:41:08 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, unless there's a general solution to the cpu cache problems that im missing
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 931 2013-09-26 17:41:58 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: well, a memory-based POW doesn't exist, so who knows how fast/slow it might be if it did
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 933 2013-09-26 17:42:40 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, it's definitely possible to construct a memory hard pow function which couldn't be significantly improved with an asic
 934 2013-09-26 17:42:52 <phantomcircuit> except that would only be true when it ran on a specific model of cpu
 935 2013-09-26 17:42:54 <phantomcircuit> :)
 936 2013-09-26 17:43:04 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: what do you mean by significantly?
 937 2013-09-26 17:43:11 <runeks> phantomcircuit: But less than "significantly improved" is enough to make the point moot.
 938 2013-09-26 17:43:14 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: is it?
 939 2013-09-26 17:43:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|<warren> michagogo|cloud: I'm going to upgrade ONLY boost for win32.  I need to work on more important things elsewhere.  Do you want to test the stability of the other library upgrades and upgrade the others yourself after my commit is accepted?
 940 2013-09-26 17:43:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|<warren> michagogo|cloud: I ask because you seem to be very interested in gitian, and you appear to want to learn.
 941 2013-09-26 17:43:24 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, 100x improvement
 942 2013-09-26 17:43:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|warren: ping
 943 2013-09-26 17:43:37 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: keep in mind a POW would need to be easier to verify than to run, so you'd have to use less memory for the verification somehow
 944 2013-09-26 17:43:45 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: maybe. 10x I agree. it's harder than you might think.
 945 2013-09-26 17:43:57 <runeks> phantomcircuit: The barrier to entry in mining is so low that margins will be tiny, so even small improvements in efficiency would rule out mining on PCs.
 946 2013-09-26 17:44:12 <gmaxwell> and what runeks said.
 947 2013-09-26 17:44:30 <phantomcircuit> runeks, you're forgetting capital costs
 948 2013-09-26 17:44:34 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 950 2013-09-26 17:45:11 <phantomcircuit> it took almost 2 years for ASICs to show up in bitcoin where the improvement is much greater than 100x
 951 2013-09-26 17:45:18 <gmaxwell> I think 10x is a "devastating" efficiency improvement in the context of mining, especially if its dual capital and power costs, considering the thin margins. And I don't think it's possible to preclude 10x.
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 953 2013-09-26 17:45:42 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: partially because we had a bunch of improvements along the way which were each 10x.
 954 2013-09-26 17:45:59 <runeks> phantomcircuit: Capital costs are mostly NRE for ASICs. So I don't think that's so important.
 955 2013-09-26 17:46:01 <gmaxwell> cpu - 10x > gpu - 10x > fpga - 10x > first gen asics.
 956 2013-09-26 17:46:32 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, essentially if you could construct a pow function which used 100% of the L1 cache and never cache missed or missed a branch prediction you would have a function which would be exceptionally difficult to improve on with an asic
 957 2013-09-26 17:46:44 <phantomcircuit> however it would only work on that one cpu efficiently
 958 2013-09-26 17:47:06 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you can get your 10x from pure peripheral costs though.
 959 2013-09-26 17:47:14 jeffbr13 has joined
 960 2013-09-26 17:47:20 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, hmm
 961 2013-09-26 17:47:38 <gmaxwell> and from deoptimizing the cpu for serial speed and recovering the space for more parallelism.
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 963 2013-09-26 17:48:59 <gmaxwell> most of the gates on a modern cpu (ignoring cache) are for ooo pipeline stuff, and its actually quite hard to design a function that requires that logic.  I'd imagine that you could get 10x from peripheral costs, and 2x from deoptimizing.
 964 2013-09-26 17:50:14 Guest__ has joined
 965 2013-09-26 17:50:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;later tell warren The idea does interest me, and I'm also interested in (at least partially) understanding how it works. However, I don't really have that much knowledge when it comes to software development and/or building. How much would be involved in testing those upgrades, both in terms of skills/knowledge needed to do so, and in terms of how much and
 966 2013-09-26 17:50:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|what kind of testing is needed and the skills/knowledge needed for that?
 967 2013-09-26 17:50:33 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 968 2013-09-26 17:50:35 <maaku> gmaxwell: sounds like a return of risc
 969 2013-09-26 17:50:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Damn, too long for one line
 970 2013-09-26 17:51:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does gribble let you do more than one later tell to the same person, or will the second one replace the first?
 971 2013-09-26 17:53:13 <Luke-Jr> maaku: everything is RISC
 972 2013-09-26 17:53:27 <maaku> Luke-Jr: I mean like the R3000
 973 2013-09-26 17:54:23 <maaku> I bet with modern chip factories you could create a chip with 64 R3000 cores each running double-digit gigahertz
 974 2013-09-26 17:54:38 <maaku> i'm not sure how you'd scale memory access though
 975 2013-09-26 17:54:55 <maaku> of course you go down that route, it starts to sound a lot like Cell...
 976 2013-09-26 17:55:19 mologie has joined
 977 2013-09-26 17:55:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;help later tell
 978 2013-09-26 17:55:47 <gribble> (later tell <nick> <text>) -- Tells <nick> <text> the next time <nick> is in seen. <nick> can contain wildcard characters, and the first matching nick will be given the note.
 979 2013-09-26 17:56:00 <midnightmagic> michagogo|cloud: not secure, by the way.
 980 2013-09-26 17:56:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|midnightmagic: hmm?
 981 2013-09-26 17:56:19 _ingsoc has joined
 982 2013-09-26 17:56:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|As in, /nick warren; hi?
 983 2013-09-26 17:56:23 <midnightmagic> michagogo|cloud: if you want the message to be private, don't use later tell
 984 2013-09-26 17:56:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|midnightmagic: yeah, ik
 985 2013-09-26 17:56:35 <midnightmagic> k
 986 2013-09-26 17:57:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|midnightmagic: do you know if it allows multiple messages queues for one user?
 987 2013-09-26 17:57:54 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tries to remember what midnightmagic does, since there are too many services out there with too many operators to keep track of
 988 2013-09-26 17:58:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|midnightmagic: (also, it's not private anyway because bitcoinstats.com)
 989 2013-09-26 18:00:09 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: wget file && git am file
 990 2013-09-26 18:00:10 <midnightmagic> michagogo|cloud: I'm not sure, I never use it.
 991 2013-09-26 18:00:23 <cfields> wrt out-of-band git commits
 992 2013-09-26 18:00:38 <midnightmagic> midnightmagic: What do you mean, what do I do? like, for work? or what am I doing in here? Or what am I doing this morning?
 993 2013-09-26 18:00:53 <midnightmagic> er..  michagogo|cloud ^^
 994 2013-09-26 18:02:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|midnightmagic: as in, which site/service(s) do you own/run, if any? I recognize your name, but I'm not sure from what
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 998 2013-09-26 18:04:28 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic is just awesome without running anything <.< (afaiK)
 999 2013-09-26 18:05:54 Vinnie_win has joined
1000 2013-09-26 18:07:47 i2pRelay has joined
1001 2013-09-26 18:08:00 <midnightmagic> :-)
1002 2013-09-26 18:08:26 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1003 2013-09-26 18:08:52 <midnightmagic> michagogo|cloud: I've been here since ~ Nov 2010. I am a private miner. I know how to grok a stackdump..  and I guess I'm an op all over the place. At least in terms of public bitcoin-related stuff.
1004 2013-09-26 18:09:02 <midnightmagic> that's pretty much it. :)
1005 2013-09-26 18:09:11 <sipa> nov 2010 :o
1006 2013-09-26 18:09:20 <sipa> that's one month before me!
1007 2013-09-26 18:10:11 <midnightmagic> -ish. That's when artforz convinced me in less than two days with his insight and logical consistency that bitcoin was something I wanted to help with.
1008 2013-09-26 18:10:22 <sipa> ha
1009 2013-09-26 18:10:46 <sipa> i think i joined slush's pool when it jad solved 2 blocks
1010 2013-09-26 18:10:47 mologie has joined
1011 2013-09-26 18:10:51 <midnightmagic> he was pretty persuasive.
1012 2013-09-26 18:11:12 <midnightmagic> i remember when slush was trying to deal with pool-hoppers.
1013 2013-09-26 18:11:18 <sipa> yeah
1014 2013-09-26 18:11:21 <sipa> damn
1015 2013-09-26 18:11:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|midnightmagic: Hmm, interesting -- I wonder why I thought that, then.
1016 2013-09-26 18:11:24 <Cusipzzz> nov 2010 here as well, but i do even less than midnightmagic :)
1017 2013-09-26 18:11:29 Eiii has joined
1018 2013-09-26 18:11:31 <sipa> that's almost 3 years ago
1019 2013-09-26 18:11:49 <midnightmagic> michagogo|cloud: I talk with more officious-ness than is probably actually due.
1020 2013-09-26 18:11:53 * sipa = stating the obvious since 1984
1021 2013-09-26 18:11:55 <midnightmagic> sipa: long time..
1022 2013-09-26 18:12:29 Thepok has joined
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1025 2013-09-26 18:13:53 <midnightmagic> sipa: er..  3 years is a long time to be monkeying around with btc. :)
1026 2013-09-26 18:14:32 <sipa> that's the word!
1027 2013-09-26 18:15:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh. my commentary about refund protocols being destroyed by malleability. P2SH actually can rescue them.
1028 2013-09-26 18:16:15 <midnightmagic> i don't suppose anybody has a link to the video of applebaum talking to the UN recently?
1029 2013-09-26 18:16:20 <gmaxwell> If the escrow that the refund is being computed for is P2SH then I can get you to sign a refund while you still can't identify the escrow payment.
1030 2013-09-26 18:17:43 rdymac has joined
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1039 2013-09-26 18:27:12 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, boo
1040 2013-09-26 18:27:19 Squidicuz has joined
1041 2013-09-26 18:27:34 <phantomcircuit> ca regulators say i have to be a licensed escrow agent if i operate in the state even if i dont have any clients in the state
1042 2013-09-26 18:27:35 <phantomcircuit> :(
1043 2013-09-26 18:28:08 <phantomcircuit> amazing this raspberrypi is still running apt-get upgrade
1044 2013-09-26 18:28:52 <phantomcircuit> oh wait no maybe it's just crashed
1045 2013-09-26 18:28:59 <phantomcircuit> yeah that one
1046 2013-09-26 18:29:01 <phantomcircuit> >.>
1047 2013-09-26 18:32:10 bbrian has joined
1048 2013-09-26 18:33:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=303088.0
1049 2013-09-26 18:33:37 ahbritto_ has joined
1050 2013-09-26 18:34:04 <midnightmagic> rpi crashes a lot for me too.
1051 2013-09-26 18:34:57 ahbritto has joined
1052 2013-09-26 18:35:14 <midnightmagic> the 512MB version so far has not, even under load. three 256MB versions, however, crash constantly.
1053 2013-09-26 18:38:03 owowo has joined
1054 2013-09-26 18:39:24 Liquid has joined
1055 2013-09-26 18:39:47 Liquid is now known as Guest13570
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1057 2013-09-26 18:45:59 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, this doesn't have any swap
1058 2013-09-26 18:46:05 <phantomcircuit> i think sshd was just oom killed
1059 2013-09-26 18:47:03 <gcX46> can I ask a question on stratum here? no one on #stratum is answering
1060 2013-09-26 18:47:50 <Luke-Jr> gcX46: sure, if it's development-related
1061 2013-09-26 18:48:10 <gcX46> ok nvm someone answered
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1072 2013-09-26 19:05:53 <warren> michagogo|cloud: I was suggesting that you work on one of the easier tasks, seeing if those builds work stable before and after the dep upgrade.
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1079 2013-09-26 19:14:51 <midnightmagic> holy crap https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ra2JA7PL2Y
1080 2013-09-26 19:16:35 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1081 2013-09-26 19:17:19 Application has joined
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1085 2013-09-26 19:21:05 <edcba> michagogo|cloud: tldw ?
1086 2013-09-26 19:21:14 <edcba> midnightmagic
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1089 2013-09-26 19:23:09 <phantomcircuit> hey guys
1090 2013-09-26 19:23:20 <phantomcircuit> i just bought myself a 1080p microSDHC card
1091 2013-09-26 19:23:22 <phantomcircuit> you jealous
1092 2013-09-26 19:23:58 <DiabloD3> uh, okay? what does resolution have to do with storage capacity or throughput?
1093 2013-09-26 19:24:50 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, i have no idea
1094 2013-09-26 19:25:25 <phantomcircuit> the sandisk 8gb card is clearly labeled FULL HD 1080P
1095 2013-09-26 19:25:58 <DiabloD3> its probably just a HS class 1 or whatever they're calling them now
1096 2013-09-26 19:26:11 <phantomcircuit> UHS-1
1097 2013-09-26 19:26:22 <DiabloD3> yeah that
1098 2013-09-26 19:26:31 <DiabloD3> is it one?
1099 2013-09-26 19:26:47 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, there is only one UHS level
1100 2013-09-26 19:26:53 <phantomcircuit> it's a hilarious marketing gimmick
1101 2013-09-26 19:26:55 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1102 2013-09-26 19:27:02 <DiabloD3> phantomcircuit: nope
1103 2013-09-26 19:27:11 <DiabloD3> UHS-II was done in SDXC spec version 4
1104 2013-09-26 19:27:12 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, they vary in speed wildly but are all UHS-1
1105 2013-09-26 19:27:23 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, i've literally never seen one ever
1106 2013-09-26 19:27:28 <DiabloD3> goes from 208mhz clock speed to 312
1107 2013-09-26 19:27:31 <DiabloD3> well, you wont for awhile
1108 2013-09-26 19:27:34 <DiabloD3> it adds another row of pins
1109 2013-09-26 19:27:54 <phantomcircuit> oh
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1111 2013-09-26 19:28:04 <DiabloD3> UHS-I is maximum of 832 mbit/sec
1112 2013-09-26 19:28:19 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, the minimum is what really counts
1113 2013-09-26 19:28:25 <phantomcircuit> and the minimum they public is nonsense
1114 2013-09-26 19:28:29 <DiabloD3> or 104? MB/sec (did it in head, probably wrong)
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1116 2013-09-26 19:28:45 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, it's right
1117 2013-09-26 19:28:53 <DiabloD3> wow, Im surprised
1118 2013-09-26 19:28:54 <phantomcircuit> iirc the advertised minimum is 10MB/s reads
1119 2013-09-26 19:29:06 <DiabloD3> yeah, its up entirely to the speed of the flash
1120 2013-09-26 19:29:39 <DiabloD3> but UHS is just the bus specification
1121 2013-09-26 19:29:42 <DiabloD3> its not a speed grade
1122 2013-09-26 19:29:54 <DiabloD3> problem is, the original class system doesnt work anymore
1123 2013-09-26 19:30:14 <DiabloD3> class 10 is like 15MB/sec or some shit
1124 2013-09-26 19:30:27 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, USH has speed ratings also
1125 2013-09-26 19:30:31 <DiabloD3> and specifying cdrom speeds is pretty fucked up too
1126 2013-09-26 19:30:38 <DiabloD3> we're like, past 500
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1129 2013-09-26 19:32:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|<phantomcircuit> the sandisk 8gb card is clearly labeled FULL HD 1080P
1130 2013-09-26 19:32:43 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1131 2013-09-26 19:32:58 <michagogo> If I had to guess, I'd say it's fast enough to support recording of 1080p
1132 2013-09-26 19:33:24 <michagogo> As in, put it in a video camera, and it can be written to in real time
1133 2013-09-26 19:33:42 <michagogo> warren: did you see the second half of the message that gribble didn't get?
1134 2013-09-26 19:34:02 <DiabloD3> yeah, it only needs to support 25mbps video
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1136 2013-09-26 19:34:30 <DiabloD3> which, really, isnt hard anymore
1137 2013-09-26 19:35:12 <michagogo> also...
1138 2013-09-26 19:35:15 <warren> michagogo: run all the tests, see if the client behaves as expected
1139 2013-09-26 19:35:18 <michagogo> looks like the logs don't like | in nicks
1140 2013-09-26 19:35:19 <michagogo> http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/09/26#l1380217660
1141 2013-09-26 19:35:36 <michagogo> warren: As in the test scripts that come with bitcoin?
1142 2013-09-26 19:35:55 * michagogo has actually never looked at those
1143 2013-09-26 19:36:33 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, 1080p H.264 is like 12mbps
1144 2013-09-26 19:36:45 <phantomcircuit> or 1.5 MB/s sequential writes
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1146 2013-09-26 19:36:51 <DiabloD3> depends on the camera
1147 2013-09-26 19:36:59 <midnightmagic> edcba: hard to summarize. :-(
1148 2013-09-26 19:37:15 <DiabloD3> but like, sandisk's newest extreme pro does 90 MB/sec writes
1149 2013-09-26 19:37:30 <DiabloD3> or 720mbit
1150 2013-09-26 19:37:52 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, the slowest part about this is archive.raspberrypi.org artificially limiting individual http requests to 300 KB/s
1151 2013-09-26 19:38:00 <DiabloD3> lolwat
1152 2013-09-26 19:38:13 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1153 2013-09-26 19:38:25 <phantomcircuit> 30MB individual file download and it's chillin at 300 KB/s
1154 2013-09-26 19:38:31 <phantomcircuit> thanks guys
1155 2013-09-26 19:38:34 <DiabloD3> yeah but like
1156 2013-09-26 19:38:38 <michagogo> phantomcircuit: if you search google, there are some command-line things that will download over multiple connection
1157 2013-09-26 19:38:38 <michagogo> s
1158 2013-09-26 19:38:42 <DiabloD3> thats about what I get on my SDL =/
1159 2013-09-26 19:38:43 <DiabloD3> er DSL
1160 2013-09-26 19:38:44 <michagogo> also...
1161 2013-09-26 19:38:50 <michagogo> 30MB individual file download and it's chillin at 300 KB/s
1162 2013-09-26 19:38:58 <warren> michagogo: upgrade deps to "widely distributed, not bleeding edge" versions used by the leading Linux distributions, build it in gitian, see if you find any problems with the binary.
1163 2013-09-26 19:39:08 <michagogo> you're talking a couple mins
1164 2013-09-26 19:39:10 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, im thinking someone thought limiting individual downloads throughput would improve performance
1165 2013-09-26 19:39:27 <warren> michagogo: we don't expect any problems given devs build it against distro libraries all the time
1166 2013-09-26 19:39:31 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, yeah which is super annoying when you're on 100/20
1167 2013-09-26 19:39:36 <michagogo> "used by the leading Linux distributions"
1168 2013-09-26 19:39:48 <phantomcircuit> 2 seconds vs several minutes
1169 2013-09-26 19:39:55 <michagogo> phantomcircuit: <2
1170 2013-09-26 19:40:15 <michagogo> 300 KB/s, 3 MB/10s, 30 MB/100s
1171 2013-09-26 19:40:58 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, lol
1172 2013-09-26 19:41:01 <phantomcircuit> ok
1173 2013-09-26 19:41:19 <michagogo> warren: How do you define "leading", by "using" do you mean "in the repos as stable", and how extensively would testing need to be done?
1174 2013-09-26 19:41:35 <phantomcircuit> it's annoying being artificially limited to 2.4% of the lines capacity
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1176 2013-09-26 19:42:05 <phantomcircuit> i understand the goal is to prevent bandwidth starvation attacks by limiting throughput per connection and then concurrent connections
1177 2013-09-26 19:42:10 <phantomcircuit> but it's still super annoying
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1180 2013-09-26 19:43:01 <warren> michagogo: has Ubuntu, Fedora, SuSE, Arch or whatever shipped that library
1181 2013-09-26 19:43:27 <warren> michagogo: just upgrade them all to a version that it seems many are using
1182 2013-09-26 19:43:37 <warren> michagogo: download the source from multiple places and make sure it matches
1183 2013-09-26 19:43:38 <michagogo> and, how hard is it to do the upgrade? is it just a matter of downloading new tar.*z files and changing the file names in the gitian descriptor for windows deps?
1184 2013-09-26 19:43:45 <warren> maybe
1185 2013-09-26 19:44:10 <warren> just do it, see if it works, ask for help if you get stuck
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1187 2013-09-26 19:44:24 <michagogo> Also: what about the version? Am I looking for "ships in lucid" or "ships in raring", for Ubuntu, for example?
1188 2013-09-26 19:45:02 <warren> michagogo: doesn't matter
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1191 2013-09-26 19:46:16 <warren> michagogo: first apply my 3 commits, then try to upgrade the deps-win32.yml
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1193 2013-09-26 19:47:00 <michagogo> Well, I think I might want to see if I can figure out how to get gitian working with LXC in a VM before I get started with that
1194 2013-09-26 19:47:54 <michagogo> warren: (oh, and did you get enough responses for http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/09/26#l1380188655? I'm on Windows, if you still need.)
1195 2013-09-26 19:48:40 <warren> michagogo: how were you doing gitian builds before?
1196 2013-09-26 19:48:52 <michagogo> rebooting into an Ubuntu install on an external harddrive
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1204 2013-09-26 19:52:52 <swulf--> How can I devise a transaction such that the output goes entirely to address A or B depending on the outcome of some challenge?  Ex: over of A challenges owner of B that he can't prime factor P within 5 minutes... is there a way to do this without 3rd party trust?
1205 2013-09-26 19:53:04 <swulf--> s/over/owner*
1206 2013-09-26 19:53:15 <michagogo> swulf--: sure
1207 2013-09-26 19:53:30 <swulf--> is there a name for this?
1208 2013-09-26 19:53:35 <michagogo> swulf--: make a transaction from A to B with nlocktime 5 minutes in the future, and give that transaction to B
1209 2013-09-26 19:53:54 <michagogo> In other words, the transaction won't be possible to mine for 5 minutes
1210 2013-09-26 19:54:00 <swulf--> right
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1212 2013-09-26 19:54:18 <swulf--> but in this case, regardless of whether B finds the factors or not, the tx gets mined in 5 minutes
1213 2013-09-26 19:54:29 <michagogo> Any time before then, A can create a transaction sending those coins back to himself
1214 2013-09-26 19:54:35 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1215 2013-09-26 19:54:40 <michagogo> Also, no need to broadcast it
1216 2013-09-26 19:54:45 <michagogo> A can give it to B
1217 2013-09-26 19:54:52 <swulf--> michagogo: now add in the requirement that B cannot trust A
1218 2013-09-26 19:55:22 <michagogo> Maybe a multisig?
1219 2013-09-26 19:55:26 <michagogo> Oh
1220 2013-09-26 19:55:29 <swulf--> would require a 3rd party
1221 2013-09-26 19:55:33 <michagogo> yeah
1222 2013-09-26 19:55:47 * michagogo thinks
1223 2013-09-26 19:55:51 <swulf--> are there decentralized "oracle" solutions?
1224 2013-09-26 19:56:00 zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1225 2013-09-26 19:56:19 <michagogo> (also, I'm not sure nlocktime is effective with such small lengths of time)
1226 2013-09-26 19:56:50 <swulf--> sure
1227 2013-09-26 19:56:55 <swulf--> it's the point that matters
1228 2013-09-26 19:57:05 <michagogo> Since it relies on the block timestamp, so if B had hashpower he could mine a block with a timestamp 5 mins in the future
1229 2013-09-26 19:57:19 <swulf--> yeah
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1231 2013-09-26 19:58:03 <swulf--> what i'm actually curious to know if there's either distributed or decentralized escrow or oracle protocols that can work in low trust environments to arbitrate challenges like this ...
1232 2013-09-26 19:58:05 <michagogo> Actually, that would mean that a time-based nlocktime (as opposed to block height) would be ineffective at times up to several few hours
1233 2013-09-26 19:58:25 <swulf--> of course
1234 2013-09-26 19:58:35 <michagogo> hmm
1235 2013-09-26 19:58:49 <michagogo> Well, if the challenge is one that can be solved within the script system...
1236 2013-09-26 19:59:06 <swulf--> hrm
1237 2013-09-26 19:59:14 <swulf--> is there a script limit? :P
1238 2013-09-26 19:59:19 <swulf--> size limit*
1239 2013-09-26 19:59:23 <michagogo> Well, there's IsStandard
1240 2013-09-26 19:59:36 <swulf--> right, it would definitely be a nonstandard tx
1241 2013-09-26 19:59:55 <michagogo> In that case, you could make a 2-of-2 or 2-of-3 multisig
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1243 2013-09-26 20:00:08 <michagogo> send to there, and first sign an nlocktimed refund transaction
1244 2013-09-26 20:00:33 <michagogo> (refund signed before sending-in transaction is broadcast)
1245 2013-09-26 20:00:58 <michagogo> and then have both parties sign a transaction that pays to the solution of the challenge
1246 2013-09-26 20:01:18 <swulf--> unfortunately I don't think I can use the script system to determine the outcome
1247 2013-09-26 20:01:19 <sipa> swulf--: it would be possible if you could encode the challenge in bitcoin's script language
1248 2013-09-26 20:01:24 <michagogo> or perhaps solution of the challenge + sig
1249 2013-09-26 20:01:28 <swulf--> sipa: yeah..
1250 2013-09-26 20:01:34 <michagogo> sipa: Just said that :-P
1251 2013-09-26 20:01:52 <swulf--> sipa: but the difficulty of the solution is on the order of checking the outcome of a chess game given a list of moves
1252 2013-09-26 20:01:52 <sipa> sorry, TL;DR
1253 2013-09-26 20:02:11 <swulf--> which I think is possible within the system as defined, but it would be a rather large script..
1254 2013-09-26 20:02:19 oleganza has joined
1255 2013-09-26 20:02:21 <sipa> nah
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1259 2013-09-26 20:03:49 <swulf--> you'd need to verify every players move as valid (and their signature for that move) and then check for a winner at each turn
1260 2013-09-26 20:04:14 Musk has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1261 2013-09-26 20:05:10 <michagogo> yeah, not possile
1262 2013-09-26 20:05:26 <michagogo> +b
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1292 2013-09-26 20:39:33 <michagogo> devrandom: around, by any chance?
1293 2013-09-26 20:39:39 <michagogo> .j ##michagogo-gitian
1294 2013-09-26 20:39:41 <michagogo> erm
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1323 2013-09-26 21:26:07 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3029  upgrade gitian win32 to precise has two ACK's. If you have the ability to do gitian builds, please help test this and the resulting win32 binary.
1324 2013-09-26 21:27:02 <michagogo> warren: I'll do it as soon as I figure out how to get gitian working in LXC
1325 2013-09-26 21:27:16 <michagogo> warren: will it be --suite precise --arch i386?
1326 2013-09-26 21:28:40 <michagogo> ah, amd64
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1340 2013-09-26 21:43:42 <zeiris> The maximus44 feller is spamming private convos asking to buy bitcoins. Probably a scammer.
1341 2013-09-26 21:44:38 <edcba> if you don't want unwanted messages anymore just forward me 0.1 btc
1342 2013-09-26 21:44:51 <sipa> edcba: you're cheap!
1343 2013-09-26 21:44:56 <warren> michagogo: cross compilers don't care what the host arch is
1344 2013-09-26 21:45:24 <gmaxwell> zeiris: yea, those people are almost always scammers.
1345 2013-09-26 21:45:31 btcbtc has joined
1346 2013-09-26 21:45:54 <edcba> btw i still have to forward those 0.1 btc back
1347 2013-09-26 21:50:27 <tgs3> http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/13/09/26/1811237/the-minnowboard-is-a-low-cost-open-hardware-single-board-computer-video
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1352 2013-09-26 21:56:02 <Luke-Jr> tgs3: funny they call it low cost, when it's the same price as a PC
1353 2013-09-26 21:56:24 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: any issues with the beagleboard stuff?
1354 2013-09-26 21:56:35 <midnightmagic> they reduced their prices now, I think they have a $30 model.
1355 2013-09-26 21:56:37 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: what beagleboard stuff?
1356 2013-09-26 21:57:05 <tgs3> Luke-Jr: I mentioned it for the security aspect, price is secondary
1357 2013-09-26 21:57:07 <midnightmagic> http://beagleboard.org/Products/BeagleBone%20Black
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1359 2013-09-26 21:57:57 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: never done anything with them.. O.o
1360 2013-09-26 21:58:20 <warren> ARM hardware that should have no problem running bitcoind or bitcoin-qt for years: http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G135341370451
1361 2013-09-26 21:58:27 <warren> pretty cheap for the power
1362 2013-09-26 21:58:29 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: the model in digi-key is $45.
1363 2013-09-26 21:58:49 <midnightmagic> might be an interesting rpi replacement-ish device anyway
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1383 2013-09-26 22:26:52 <runeks> FWIW I gave up running bitcoind on my Raspberry Pi 512MB version because it kept crashing because of memory exhaustion.
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1385 2013-09-26 22:29:10 <runeks> And I also gave up using a SATA-to-USB dock for a HDD because the RPi has a buggy USB interface. The dock in question works fine with my PC and Chromebook.
1386 2013-09-26 22:29:39 <runeks> I'm off to bed though. Laters.
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1397 2013-09-26 22:47:22 <Eneerge> any of you know if theres an extension or other way to auto organize the attributes inside an asp/html tag in a certain order. EG: runat="server" should come first, followed by id="..". Some way of setting the order of all attributes on each tag
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1436 2013-09-26 23:40:38 <michagogo> Can someone remind me: are the windows builds of boost, qt, and the deps zip supposed to be deterministic?
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1438 2013-09-26 23:41:24 <gmaxwell> michagogo: no, I think they're not— our goal is only the resulting binary .. and I think we never did get the deps determinstic.
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1440 2013-09-26 23:41:45 <michagogo> gmaxwell: I remember that some of them weren't
1441 2013-09-26 23:42:07 <michagogo> (or were deterministic as long as you built on the same day or something)
1442 2013-09-26 23:42:45 <michagogo> What I don't remember is whether there were any outputs besides the actual bitcoin build that were deterministic
1443 2013-09-26 23:43:26 <michagogo> Easy enough to check, I guess
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1445 2013-09-26 23:46:13 <michagogo> Seems qt-win32-4.8.3-gitian-r1.zip and boost-win32-1.50.0-gitian2.zip aren't deterministic
1446 2013-09-26 23:46:20 <michagogo> bitcoin-deps-0.0.5.zip, however, is
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1448 2013-09-26 23:47:03 <michagogo> (or at least, me, Gavin, Wladimir, Luke, and Warren are using identical zips for our builds)
1449 2013-09-26 23:47:25 <warren> michagogo: intermediate deps are not a concern
1450 2013-09-26 23:47:30 <michagogo> I know that
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1452 2013-09-26 23:48:08 <michagogo> The reason I ask is because I want to see whether my LXC setup, which does seem to be producing builds, is producing deterministic builds
1453 2013-09-26 23:48:31 <michagogo> And I was wondering if I could check if that was the case before actually building bitcoin
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