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 271 2013-09-28 09:15:35 <warren> gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770#issuecomment-25294214  damn... this is very similar to what we're hearing from this one litecoin mac user. clean shutdown, no sleep/suspend, and it comes back corrupted on next run.
 272 2013-09-28 09:16:00 <warren> so there is a different mac issue than what we know...
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 380 2013-09-28 12:53:47 <sphered> I need to send a percentage of coins that are mined to a list of accounts.  I know this can be done by modifying the source code but how? Any help would be appreciated.
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 450 2013-09-28 15:04:11 <_Sam--> hi, what is the best profitability calculator you like to use for mining hardware?
 451 2013-09-28 15:05:17 <pankkake> http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/
 452 2013-09-28 15:05:48 <_Sam--> thank you.
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 461 2013-09-28 15:14:25 <sphered> some development help needed. I need to send a percentage of coins that are mined to a list of accounts.  I know this can be done by modifying the source code but how?  using litecoin sourcecode
 462 2013-09-28 15:15:09 <Graet> try #litecoin-dev
 463 2013-09-28 15:15:25 <sphered> thanks
 464 2013-09-28 15:16:12 <_Sam--> im trying to setup a stratum server for my own miners and have the source and have it running on ec2 cloud server, but where can i find more details about the options and what the accepted values are, or what some of them even mean, or do
 465 2013-09-28 15:17:35 <_Sam--> and Graet :  how did your 650 turn out?
 466 2013-09-28 15:17:39 jgarzik has joined
 467 2013-09-28 15:18:22 <Graet> good sam, needs a new chain and a tune, but thats the nature of neglecting bikes ;)
 468 2013-09-28 15:18:33 <_Sam--> is it a 530 or 525 chain?
 469 2013-09-28 15:19:06 <Graet> no idea, sorry, i'm a bit busy with my pol atm, and its very offtopic for -dev
 470 2013-09-28 15:19:13 <Graet> pool*
 471 2013-09-28 15:19:20 <_Sam--> sorry, which pool is yours?
 472 2013-09-28 15:19:57 <Graet> Ozcoin
 473 2013-09-28 15:20:21 <_Sam--> nice work.
 474 2013-09-28 15:21:24 <_Sam--> send me a settings.py besides sample so i can understand more :P
 475 2013-09-28 15:21:41 i2pRelay has joined
 476 2013-09-28 15:22:21 <Graet> cant atm, in middle of migrating servers - thats what i'm busy with]
 477 2013-09-28 15:24:06 <_Sam--> i understand.  if i can help you in any way, lmk.  i have 18 years of senior linux experience.
 478 2013-09-28 15:24:24 <_Sam--> including HA services.
 479 2013-09-28 15:28:14 <Graet> thanks, we have a good team already :)
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 484 2013-09-28 15:36:31 * jgarzik continues to be tempted to create a GUI make-your-own-altchain tool  ;-)
 485 2013-09-28 15:37:09 <jgarzik> maybe a checkbox for pre-mining
 486 2013-09-28 15:37:22 <Graet> lol
 487 2013-09-28 15:37:30 sphered has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 488 2013-09-28 15:37:30 <chmod755> lol
 489 2013-09-28 15:37:48 <chmod755> jgarzik, make it closed-source and sell it for BTC
 490 2013-09-28 15:39:16 <jgarzik> Radio buttons for hashing algorithm: ( ) SHA256   ( ) scrypt   ( ) obscure scheme based on prime numbers that no one feels is valuable or fast
 491 2013-09-28 15:39:49 <chmod755> md4 (x)
 492 2013-09-28 15:40:39 <sipa> jgarzik: ( ) all of the above
 493 2013-09-28 15:40:45 <jgarzik> Money supply model:  ( ) declining new supply, modelled after resource extraction,   ( ) constant 50 coins per block    ( ) Ben Bernanke
 494 2013-09-28 15:41:00 <chmod755> hahaha
 495 2013-09-28 15:41:06 <sipa> ( ) random
 496 2013-09-28 15:41:24 <pankkake> I'm actually thinking of starting an altcoin named after Ben Bernanke
 497 2013-09-28 15:41:33 <sipa> BBC!
 498 2013-09-28 15:41:33 <Diablo-D3> honestly
 499 2013-09-28 15:41:36 <Diablo-D3> if I made bitcoin
 500 2013-09-28 15:41:36 <pankkake> the Bernankoin
 501 2013-09-28 15:41:42 <Diablo-D3> I would have kept 50 coins per block
 502 2013-09-28 15:41:56 <lianj> Diablo-D3: forever?
 503 2013-09-28 15:42:24 <Diablo-D3> yes
 504 2013-09-28 15:42:26 <pankkake> the number of coins per block would be directly related to difficulty
 505 2013-09-28 15:42:49 <Diablo-D3> the rate of inflation would not remain linear
 506 2013-09-28 15:42:56 <lianj> Diablo-D3: that would be a totally different coin then. and maybe had never taken off
 507 2013-09-28 15:43:04 <sipa> and maybe it would
 508 2013-09-28 15:43:09 <Diablo-D3> lianj: nope think about it
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 512 2013-09-28 15:43:16 <Diablo-D3> 50 coins would be big in the beginning
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 514 2013-09-28 15:43:19 <lianj> sipa: yea, maybe
 515 2013-09-28 15:43:20 <Diablo-D3> but very small right now
 516 2013-09-28 15:43:23 <sipa> we don't actually know what property or properties in bitcoin mde it take off
 517 2013-09-28 15:43:33 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3, someone already created a 50-BTC-per-block-forever fork
 518 2013-09-28 15:43:36 <Diablo-D3> the inflation in percent would reduce every block
 519 2013-09-28 15:43:41 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: yeah, so?
 520 2013-09-28 15:43:42 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3, same chain genesis, same keys, etc.
 521 2013-09-28 15:43:50 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: wtf =/
 522 2013-09-28 15:43:51 <Diablo-D3> why
 523 2013-09-28 15:43:58 devthedev has joined
 524 2013-09-28 15:43:59 <lianj> sipa: i feel like having a fixed sum was one of the well at least selling points
 525 2013-09-28 15:44:10 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3, they disagreed with the declining output
 526 2013-09-28 15:44:12 <sipa> very early on, i think so
 527 2013-09-28 15:44:16 <Diablo-D3> lianj: but its not a fixed sum if you use percentages
 528 2013-09-28 15:44:18 <sipa> right now, i'm less sure
 529 2013-09-28 15:44:19 <Diablo-D3> ;;blocks
 530 2013-09-28 15:44:20 <gribble> 260592
 531 2013-09-28 15:44:27 <Diablo-D3> we'd have 260592 * 50 coins atm
 532 2013-09-28 15:44:33 devthedev has quit (Client Quit)
 533 2013-09-28 15:44:50 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 260592 * 50
 534 2013-09-28 15:44:51 <gribble> 13029600
 535 2013-09-28 15:44:52 <jgarzik> agree w/ sipa, RE early on
 536 2013-09-28 15:44:53 devthedev has joined
 537 2013-09-28 15:45:01 <jgarzik> The main selling point today is "it works"
 538 2013-09-28 15:45:08 <lianj> kinda :D
 539 2013-09-28 15:45:15 frb has joined
 540 2013-09-28 15:45:18 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 240000 * 50 + (260592 - 240000) * 25
 541 2013-09-28 15:45:18 <gribble> 12514800
 542 2013-09-28 15:45:29 <Diablo-D3> (I think I did that right)
 543 2013-09-28 15:45:42 <jgarzik> it's the first global currency (no, gold doesn't count, you cannot transfer gold easily with full trust)
 544 2013-09-28 15:45:42 <sipa>    "total_amount" : 11764664.79571183
 545 2013-09-28 15:46:05 <Diablo-D3> sipa: isnt yours involving lost coins or something
 546 2013-09-28 15:46:30 <sipa> Diablo-D3: it includes overwritten coins and fees that were not claimed
 547 2013-09-28 15:46:40 <sipa> but the effect of those is very small
 548 2013-09-28 15:46:42 <Diablo-D3> yeah see, Im not calculating that
 549 2013-09-28 15:46:49 <Diablo-D3> isnt it halved every 240k blocks?
 550 2013-09-28 15:46:55 <sipa> a few 1000 BTC at most
 551 2013-09-28 15:47:15 <lianj> 1176485000000000
 552 2013-09-28 15:47:20 <jgarzik> sipa, BTW, been meaning to ask you:  any last little bits of polish needed, now that prune-unspendables is merged?
 553 2013-09-28 15:47:29 <Diablo-D3> so
 554 2013-09-28 15:47:32 <sipa> jgarzik: such as?
 555 2013-09-28 15:47:32 <Diablo-D3> if I made a coin
 556 2013-09-28 15:47:33 <Diablo-D3> that
 557 2013-09-28 15:47:39 <Diablo-D3> used scrypt or that new thing
 558 2013-09-28 15:47:42 <Diablo-D3> used the knobs correctly
 559 2013-09-28 15:47:43 bmcgee has joined
 560 2013-09-28 15:47:47 <Diablo-D3> had an easy to use client
 561 2013-09-28 15:47:54 <Diablo-D3> had a working business gateway
 562 2013-09-28 15:48:17 <sipa> included a unicorn for every user
 563 2013-09-28 15:48:18 <Diablo-D3> and allowed clusterable bitcoinds
 564 2013-09-28 15:48:25 <Diablo-D3> (shared replicated databases)
 565 2013-09-28 15:48:32 devthedev has quit (Client Quit)
 566 2013-09-28 15:48:37 <jgarzik> sipa, anything.  We had at one time talked about adding some flag fields to gettxoutset indicating pruning, and other small details.  Just making a general poke, searching around the dusty corners of human memory for the possibility of any last details like that.
 567 2013-09-28 15:48:50 devthedevpro has joined
 568 2013-09-28 15:48:58 <sipa> jgarzik: yeah, right now, that hash field is not reliable
 569 2013-09-28 15:49:01 <Diablo-D3> blocks happened every 5 minutes
 570 2013-09-28 15:49:09 <Diablo-D3> 50 coins per block forever
 571 2013-09-28 15:49:16 <Diablo-D3> would people mine on it?
 572 2013-09-28 15:49:18 <sipa> jgarzik: unless reindexed since upgrading
 573 2013-09-28 15:49:21 <jgarzik> sipa, rewritten, any pruning-related to-do items like that unfinished, and needing to be done for 0.9.x?
 574 2013-09-28 15:49:32 <jgarzik> sipa, maybe 0.9 should force reindex?
 575 2013-09-28 15:49:36 <jgarzik> for all
 576 2013-09-28 15:49:40 <sipa> jgarzik: not worth it imho
 577 2013-09-28 15:49:52 <devthedevpro> Hi
 578 2013-09-28 15:50:06 <devthedevpro> How's everyone doing?
 579 2013-09-28 15:50:17 <sipa> jgarzik: maybe we could just write a "version last reindexed at"
 580 2013-09-28 15:50:19 <Diablo-D3> oh oh oh
 581 2013-09-28 15:50:20 <Diablo-D3> and
 582 2013-09-28 15:50:22 <Diablo-D3> I could write it
 583 2013-09-28 15:50:23 <Diablo-D3> in erlang
 584 2013-09-28 15:50:25 <Diablo-D3> <3
 585 2013-09-28 15:50:26 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3, huhwhuh?  bitcoind's purpose is creating a shared replicated database …  :)
 586 2013-09-28 15:50:33 <devthedevpro> Can someone help me with something?
 587 2013-09-28 15:50:39 * chmod755 makes a new fork of bitcoin and calls it litecoin so everyone is confused as f***
 588 2013-09-28 15:50:43 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: yes, but the wallet.dat isnt clustered.
 589 2013-09-28 15:50:46 <devthedevpro> I'm trying to start up a LTC pool. Not sure where to start.
 590 2013-09-28 15:50:47 <sipa> devthedevpro: do 't ask to ask
 591 2013-09-28 15:50:52 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3, right now we have a database with a replication factor > 20000x ;p
 592 2013-09-28 15:51:10 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: I know =P
 593 2013-09-28 15:51:10 <devthedevpro> Trying to set up a P2Pool node
 594 2013-09-28 15:51:14 <sipa> devthedevpro: ask in #litecoin-dev
 595 2013-09-28 15:51:14 <sipa> or in #bitcoin-mining perhaps
 596 2013-09-28 15:51:20 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: but that seems insane for, say, a cluster for a bank
 597 2013-09-28 15:51:20 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3, stop trying to use bitcoind as a wallet if you want huge, sharded, scaled, failing over key storage
 598 2013-09-28 15:51:24 <devthedevpro> kk
 599 2013-09-28 15:51:26 <sipa> or in #p2pool
 600 2013-09-28 15:51:39 <devthedevpro> Thanks guys
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 604 2013-09-28 15:52:20 <jgarzik> IMO Big Companies will have several bitcoind "border routers", and use non-bitcoind key management that involves multiple computers and quite different schemes from a single-computer design
 605 2013-09-28 15:52:31 swulf-- has joined
 606 2013-09-28 15:52:36 <sipa> jgarzik: how is no-wallet-mode doing?
 607 2013-09-28 15:52:42 <sipa> haven't folledup on that
 608 2013-09-28 15:52:52 <jgarzik> sipa, I think it's ready, there may be one last nit
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 610 2013-09-28 15:53:00 <jgarzik> testing is going well by multiple reports
 611 2013-09-28 15:53:03 <chmod755> what is no-wallet-mode??
 612 2013-09-28 15:53:09 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: exactly
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 614 2013-09-28 15:53:13 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: so why not have that built in
 615 2013-09-28 15:53:14 <devthedevpro> sipa: Those channels are all dead :
 616 2013-09-28 15:53:15 <sipa> i'm pondering about merging libsecp256k1, only enabled in an ezperimental build that disables mining and wallet
 617 2013-09-28 15:53:21 <sipa> devthedevpro: patience
 618 2013-09-28 15:53:28 <Diablo-D3> btw, question
 619 2013-09-28 15:53:29 <sipa> not everyone is awake all the time
 620 2013-09-28 15:54:04 <Diablo-D3> do we consider elliptic curves still secure?
 621 2013-09-28 15:54:15 <sipa> i consider secp256k1 secure
 622 2013-09-28 15:54:27 <Diablo-D3> yeah but what if the NSA broke it
 623 2013-09-28 15:54:37 <jgarzik> sipa, ah yes.  All that remains is shed-painting over command line option naming and handling.  Gavin wants -wallet=0 / -nowallet, which, meh but OK, just a bit annoying to overload a filename param IMHO.
 624 2013-09-28 15:54:41 <jgarzik> for no-wallet
 625 2013-09-28 15:54:53 <jgarzik> everything else is tested and working
 626 2013-09-28 15:54:55 <jgarzik> and ready for merge
 627 2013-09-28 15:55:31 <jgarzik> in fact, I could probably pull the "add !pwalletMain checks" patch right now
 628 2013-09-28 15:55:34 <sipa> jgarzik: i'll add some paint myself to the discussion then
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 630 2013-09-28 15:55:50 <Diablo-D3> sipa: like, okay, lets say I was making a new coin
 631 2013-09-28 15:55:54 <Diablo-D3> why wouldnt I use ed25519 instead
 632 2013-09-28 15:56:07 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 633 2013-09-28 15:56:38 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i think i'd use ed25519 right now, indeed
 634 2013-09-28 15:56:49 <jgarzik> sipa, ACK re libsecp256k1.  I want to get it in the repo and build, even if disabled-by-default with safety checks (like those you mention)
 635 2013-09-28 15:56:59 <jgarzik> *repo and build system
 636 2013-09-28 15:57:01 * Diablo-D3 ponders.
 637 2013-09-28 15:57:12 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I wonder if its too late to reinvent bitcoin
 638 2013-09-28 15:57:23 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i don't know
 639 2013-09-28 15:57:32 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3, of course not
 640 2013-09-28 15:57:36 <Diablo-D3> I wish I knew how parts of it worked
 641 2013-09-28 15:57:37 <sipa> Diablo-D3: there are many actually significant technical improvements possible
 642 2013-09-28 15:57:44 <Diablo-D3> like, how do I actually send coins to someone else
 643 2013-09-28 15:57:51 <Diablo-D3> I know the address is a hash of a public key
 644 2013-09-28 15:57:59 <sipa> that are hard to inpossible to include into bitcoin
 645 2013-09-28 15:58:09 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3, one possible endgame is that current bitcoin becomes a super-strong-mining-power chain with few transactions, timestamping and securing another chain with slightly different features.
 646 2013-09-28 15:58:39 <Diablo-D3> but how do I, with the private key of that public key, make a transaction with those coins that were sent to me
 647 2013-09-28 15:58:44 <jgarzik> in that case, "another chain" can have Lamport sigs or whatever people really like better
 648 2013-09-28 15:58:53 <jgarzik> see /title links, hard fork wish list etc
 649 2013-09-28 15:59:19 <sipa> gmaxwell has a wiki page with more exotic improvement ideas
 650 2013-09-28 15:59:25 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: itym /topic
 651 2013-09-28 16:00:10 <jgarzik> sipa, quite seriously, I think it would be a nice exercise to run a testnet_x, with a test coin that includes such "we would do this, if we could clean slate" features.
 652 2013-09-28 16:00:32 <jgarzik> just reset, when consensus says testnet_x should include a radical change
 653 2013-09-28 16:00:41 <jgarzik> keep a living, working record of good ideas
 654 2013-09-28 16:00:56 <Diablo-D3> how does bitcoin use signatures to prove ownership of an address
 655 2013-09-28 16:01:08 <jgarzik> and provide a good base for anyone with a legitimate alt-coin use
 656 2013-09-28 16:01:17 <jgarzik> (IMO, local coins are one such use)
 657 2013-09-28 16:01:55 <sipa> Diablo-D3: by signing the spending transaction's hash with the private key corresponding to it
 658 2013-09-28 16:02:16 <sipa> Diablo-D3: (after some non-trivial modifications)
 659 2013-09-28 16:02:21 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah, but how does that prove it.
 660 2013-09-28 16:02:35 <sipa> Diablo-D3: learn digital signature schemes
 661 2013-09-28 16:02:46 <Diablo-D3> I tried that once, its confusing as hell
 662 2013-09-28 16:02:57 <sipa> that's exactly what digital signatures do
 663 2013-09-28 16:03:10 <Diablo-D3> I dont understand the math
 664 2013-09-28 16:03:21 <sipa> well then either skip it, or learn it
 665 2013-09-28 16:04:20 <Diablo-D3> and what sort of non-trivial modification
 666 2013-09-28 16:04:25 <devthedevpro> Does anyone have a spare VPS?
 667 2013-09-28 16:05:41 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 668 2013-09-28 16:07:25 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so, if I know someone's address, and they make a tx, there is math where I can verify they made the tx?
 669 2013-09-28 16:07:36 <sipa> Diablo-D3: actually, you don't
 670 2013-09-28 16:07:48 <sipa> Diablo-D3: the full node implementation just verifies all signatures
 671 2013-09-28 16:08:04 <sipa> which means the wallet just doesn't even get to see them if they're invalid
 672 2013-09-28 16:08:13 <sipa> (or have some invalid transaction in their history)
 673 2013-09-28 16:08:48 <Diablo-D3> sipa: see, this is what I dont get, how can bitcoin be secure if individual tx cannot be validated
 674 2013-09-28 16:09:06 <sipa> they can be
 675 2013-09-28 16:09:31 <sipa> but as we already have a system that verifies *everything*, there is no need to individually verify things
 676 2013-09-28 16:09:47 <Diablo-D3> sipa: but I can store tx inside of the chain that are garbage
 677 2013-09-28 16:10:03 <sipa> no, that would make the chain invalid
 678 2013-09-28 16:10:09 <sipa> dude, how long have you been around?
 679 2013-09-28 16:10:17 <Diablo-D3> so how are people storing plain text in the chain?
 680 2013-09-28 16:10:20 <Diablo-D3> I know people have done it
 681 2013-09-28 16:10:30 <sipa> they store it inside amounts
 682 2013-09-28 16:10:41 <sipa> or create addresses with data in them, and spend to it
 683 2013-09-28 16:10:50 <sipa> those are technically completely valid transactions
 684 2013-09-28 16:10:54 <Diablo-D3> but if the amount cannot be valid, how can it be a valid tx
 685 2013-09-28 16:11:00 <sipa> ...
 686 2013-09-28 16:11:12 <sipa> why would the amount not be "valid" ?
 687 2013-09-28 16:11:22 <sipa> they just store some data in the last decimals
 688 2013-09-28 16:11:29 <sipa> (in binary)
 689 2013-09-28 16:11:37 <Diablo-D3> yes, but wouldnt they be burning coins then?
 690 2013-09-28 16:11:40 <sipa> they are
 691 2013-09-28 16:11:47 <Diablo-D3> why =/
 692 2013-09-28 16:11:52 <sipa> because it's cool, i guess
 693 2013-09-28 16:12:10 <sipa> or construct an address that is not actually the hash of a public ket
 694 2013-09-28 16:12:22 <sipa> nobody knows the private key doesn't exist, so those outputs cannot be spent
 695 2013-09-28 16:12:28 <sipa> but the transactions crediting them are valid
 696 2013-09-28 16:12:30 <Diablo-D3> yeah but that still burns coins
 697 2013-09-28 16:12:32 <sipa> yes
 698 2013-09-28 16:12:39 <chmod755> jgarzik, just heard that the bootstrap.dat can be downloaded at ~25MB/s - that's really nice
 699 2013-09-28 16:12:47 Tykling has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 700 2013-09-28 16:12:56 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so why not require something where you have to announce a new address before being able to send to it
 701 2013-09-28 16:13:08 <sipa> Diablo-D3: how would that help?
 702 2013-09-28 16:13:18 <Diablo-D3> good point =/
 703 2013-09-28 16:13:19 <sipa> Diablo-D3: it would require *everyone* to hear your broadcast
 704 2013-09-28 16:13:28 <sipa> which is an impossibly hard thing to guarantee
 705 2013-09-28 16:13:33 <sipa> unless you make it part of the chain
 706 2013-09-28 16:13:35 <Diablo-D3> well, it'd be encoded in the chain
 707 2013-09-28 16:13:36 <sipa> which means extra bloat
 708 2013-09-28 16:13:40 <Diablo-D3> but that would be abusable
 709 2013-09-28 16:13:45 <sipa> bingo
 710 2013-09-28 16:13:53 <sipa> gmaxwell actually has a scheme that would prevent this
 711 2013-09-28 16:14:04 <sipa> would it requires different address structure
 712 2013-09-28 16:14:09 <Diablo-D3> sipa: is it possible to produce a proof that your signature is real?
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 717 2013-09-28 16:17:09 <Diablo-D3> sipa: sorry, I mean, is it possible to produce a proof that your address is real
 718 2013-09-28 16:19:39 <Luke-Jr> define real
 719 2013-09-28 16:19:52 <sipa> Diablo-D3: yes
 720 2013-09-28 16:19:54 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: not a fictional address used for burning coins
 721 2013-09-28 16:20:02 <sipa> you can prove that you own the corresponding private key
 722 2013-09-28 16:20:17 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so why dont we require that?
 723 2013-09-28 16:20:26 <sipa> Diablo-D3: because it means bloat
 724 2013-09-28 16:20:27 jgarzik has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 725 2013-09-28 16:20:38 <Diablo-D3> how much bloat
 726 2013-09-28 16:20:58 <Luke-Jr> it also require disclosing your pubkey..
 727 2013-09-28 16:21:05 <Luke-Jr> sipa: only network bloat
 728 2013-09-28 16:21:15 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: I dont think it does
 729 2013-09-28 16:21:46 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it would mean significantly reducing the script language's flexibility
 730 2013-09-28 16:22:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, it'd just be an IsStandard thing in any case
 731 2013-09-28 16:22:10 <sipa> right
 732 2013-09-28 16:22:21 <sipa> that's certainly easier
 733 2013-09-28 16:22:35 <Luke-Jr> IMO just verifying it's a hash, and not arbitrary data, is good enough
 734 2013-09-28 16:22:52 <sipa> right
 735 2013-09-28 16:23:07 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 736 2013-09-28 16:23:08 <Diablo-D3> so how would I do that?
 737 2013-09-28 16:23:08 agnostic98 has joined
 738 2013-09-28 16:23:12 <Diablo-D3> is there a formula for that?
 739 2013-09-28 16:23:22 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: new address format is SHA256(pubkey) instead of RIPEMD(SHA256(pubkey))
 740 2013-09-28 16:23:24 <sipa> but it does mean you need to be able to identify every data element inside the script that may be at some point used as a pubkey hash
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 743 2013-09-28 16:23:45 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: you still use RIPEMD in blocks/transactions, but you must prove it's a hash by providing SHA256(pubkey) on the netwrok
 744 2013-09-28 16:23:48 <sipa> which is quite hard in combination with P2SH, iirc, as it means also looking inside the embedded script in the spending transaction
 745 2013-09-28 16:23:57 <sipa> but inside IsStandard(), that's doable
 746 2013-09-28 16:24:00 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: yeah, but how does that help
 747 2013-09-28 16:24:13 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: miners refuse to include transactions unless they know the preimage
 748 2013-09-28 16:24:31 <Diablo-D3> that only proves the ripemd160 is real
 749 2013-09-28 16:24:34 <Diablo-D3> not the sha256
 750 2013-09-28 16:24:36 <sipa> indeed
 751 2013-09-28 16:24:47 <sipa> but that does mean you can't use it for arbitrary data storage already
 752 2013-09-28 16:24:49 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: yes, that's good enough for all cases I'm aware of now
 753 2013-09-28 16:24:54 <sipa> it doesn't mean you're not burning coins
 754 2013-09-28 16:24:58 <sipa> but who cares about that
 755 2013-09-28 16:25:02 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: so I can now spam fake sha256s
 756 2013-09-28 16:25:04 <Diablo-D3> for data storage
 757 2013-09-28 16:25:05 <Luke-Jr> you can't prove I'm not burning coins..
 758 2013-09-28 16:25:06 <Diablo-D3> without burning coins
 759 2013-09-28 16:25:12 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: the SHA256 isn't stored.
 760 2013-09-28 16:25:15 <sipa> Diablo-D3: plus those fake sha256s aren't stored
 761 2013-09-28 16:25:23 <sipa> so yes, it's spam, but not stored spam
 762 2013-09-28 16:25:27 <Diablo-D3> sipa: okay so
 763 2013-09-28 16:25:28 <Diablo-D3> uh
 764 2013-09-28 16:25:34 <Diablo-D3> if I send a tx
 765 2013-09-28 16:25:45 <Diablo-D3> that uses a ripemd160 address
 766 2013-09-28 16:25:58 <sipa> you broadcast (TX(ripemd(sha(pubkey)),sha(pubkey))
 767 2013-09-28 16:26:00 <Diablo-D3> I must also have sent a sha256 of my private key recently?
 768 2013-09-28 16:26:04 <Diablo-D3> er
 769 2013-09-28 16:26:06 <sipa> of your pubkey
 770 2013-09-28 16:26:07 <Diablo-D3> public key
 771 2013-09-28 16:26:12 <sipa> which you always have
 772 2013-09-28 16:26:33 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: RIPEMD160 addresses would be unsupported
 773 2013-09-28 16:26:47 <sipa> oh
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 775 2013-09-28 16:26:53 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: why?
 776 2013-09-28 16:26:55 <sipa> you need to have the pubkey of the recipient, indeed
 777 2013-09-28 16:27:01 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: because you don't have the preimage for it
 778 2013-09-28 16:27:14 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah exactly, its why I dont get it
 779 2013-09-28 16:27:18 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 780 2013-09-28 16:27:20 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: the address would encode the SHA256, and the sender would RIPEMD160 that, while it has the preimage
 781 2013-09-28 16:27:23 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: ahh
 782 2013-09-28 16:27:34 <Diablo-D3> so it'd make addresses longer
 783 2013-09-28 16:27:37 <Luke-Jr> yep
 784 2013-09-28 16:27:48 <Luke-Jr> .. to do it with bitcoin
 785 2013-09-28 16:27:51 <Diablo-D3> so why dont I ripemd160 the ripemd160?
 786 2013-09-28 16:28:01 <Luke-Jr> an altcoin could just do RIPEMD160(RIPEMD160(SHA256(pubkey)
 787 2013-09-28 16:28:03 <Luke-Jr> right
 788 2013-09-28 16:28:08 avar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 789 2013-09-28 16:28:42 <Diablo-D3> but I'd need to know the preimage of the reciever
 790 2013-09-28 16:28:48 avar has joined
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 792 2013-09-28 16:29:09 <Diablo-D3> so to be able to send to someone, I'd need a pubkey preimage
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 797 2013-09-28 16:31:51 <Diablo-D3> sipa, Luke-Jr: am I wrong/
 798 2013-09-28 16:32:05 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
 799 2013-09-28 16:32:07 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: you'd need the preimage of the final hash
 800 2013-09-28 16:32:16 <Luke-Jr> not necessarily the full pubkey
 801 2013-09-28 16:32:25 <Diablo-D3> this is what Im talking about
 802 2013-09-28 16:32:31 <Diablo-D3> how would I get such a thing
 803 2013-09-28 16:32:42 jgarzik has joined
 804 2013-09-28 16:32:42 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: that's what you'd make your address format encode
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 807 2013-09-28 16:33:09 <Diablo-D3> but wouldn't I just be allowing people to put plaintext in the chain some way or another?
 808 2013-09-28 16:33:25 <Luke-Jr> no
 809 2013-09-28 16:33:36 <Luke-Jr> the address-encoded data would never be in the chain
 810 2013-09-28 16:34:14 <Diablo-D3> so the address would be the encoded preimage?
 811 2013-09-28 16:34:27 <sipa> indeed
 812 2013-09-28 16:34:30 <Diablo-D3> but how does that prevent people from burning coins
 813 2013-09-28 16:34:33 <sipa> it doesn't
 814 2013-09-28 16:34:40 <sipa> but why do you care about others burning coins?
 815 2013-09-28 16:34:47 <Diablo-D3> sipa: because its dumb =/
 816 2013-09-28 16:34:53 <sipa> it's the same as if they'd decide to just throw away a privkey
 817 2013-09-28 16:35:00 <Diablo-D3> meh
 818 2013-09-28 16:35:04 <sipa> or even to just never spend any coins
 819 2013-09-28 16:36:02 <Diablo-D3> how the hell did satoshi do all of this alone
 820 2013-09-28 16:36:04 <Diablo-D3> its impossible
 821 2013-09-28 16:36:15 <Diablo-D3> it had to be a team of people
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 823 2013-09-28 16:36:42 <Luke-Jr> …
 824 2013-09-28 16:36:57 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: what it prevents is people abusing the blockchain as data storage
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 826 2013-09-28 16:37:05 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: true
 827 2013-09-28 16:37:47 <Diablo-D3> so whats stored in the chain is ripmed160 of ripmed160(sha256(pubkey)) and the address is ripmed160(sha256(pubkey))?
 828 2013-09-28 16:37:53 <jgarzik> I could see a single person doing a crappy Windows version of a fantastically thought through idea ;p
 829 2013-09-28 16:37:55 <sipa> for example
 830 2013-09-28 16:38:22 <Luke-Jr> who wants to lart "Hive" for displaying "from" addresses?
 831 2013-09-28 16:38:37 <Luke-Jr> (or are those addresses at all? looks hexish!)
 832 2013-09-28 16:38:44 bmcgee has joined
 833 2013-09-28 16:39:11 <jgarzik> for the record I do think Satoshi is a single person.  I also am probably the least interested in Satoshi-as-a-person.  Reporters love to ask about it, but that's non-technical stuff and therefore boring and irrelevant.
 834 2013-09-28 16:39:22 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so the tx is signed by the keypair, then bitcoind scans every tx for a hash it knows is a private key of it's?
 835 2013-09-28 16:39:43 <Diablo-D3> er, sender keypair, reciever hash, respectively
 836 2013-09-28 16:39:45 <sipa> Diablo-D3: every wallet knows which addresses it controls
 837 2013-09-28 16:39:54 <Diablo-D3> sipa: exactly
 838 2013-09-28 16:40:05 <sipa> Diablo-D3: whether it actually has the privkey is irrelevant (in case the wallet is encrypted, it doesn't actuallt have them)
 839 2013-09-28 16:40:36 <Diablo-D3> I mean reciever hash of public key
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 842 2013-09-28 16:41:23 <Diablo-D3> sipa: see, what I dont get is, how can a new tx be created from outputs
 843 2013-09-28 16:41:46 <sipa> ?
 844 2013-09-28 16:41:57 <Diablo-D3> sipa: why cant I sign a tx stealing other peoples outputs
 845 2013-09-28 16:41:58 <Luke-Jr> it's funny how the public seems to have this misconception of Satoshi as a programming wizard who wrote Bitcoin's original code exploit-free etc
 846 2013-09-28 16:42:07 <sipa> Diablo-D3: because you don't have their private key?)
 847 2013-09-28 16:42:18 <sipa> creating a signature requires a private key
 848 2013-09-28 16:42:24 <Diablo-D3> sipa: but I dont need their private key if their isnt private data
 849 2013-09-28 16:42:24 <sipa> validating it only requires a public key
 850 2013-09-28 16:42:31 <sipa> ?
 851 2013-09-28 16:42:41 <sipa> private keys are always private
 852 2013-09-28 16:43:00 <Diablo-D3> well, isnt a tx out only previous tx + amount?
 853 2013-09-28 16:43:33 <sipa> it's a list of previous outputs being consumed, and a list of new outputs being produced
 854 2013-09-28 16:43:41 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yes
 855 2013-09-28 16:43:50 <sipa> the ones consumed contain a signature with their private key
 856 2013-09-28 16:44:01 <Diablo-D3> sipa: okay so
 857 2013-09-28 16:44:03 <sipa> outputs contain a list of public keys being sent to (or hashes thereof)
 858 2013-09-28 16:44:07 <Diablo-D3> lets say I have three addresses
 859 2013-09-28 16:44:11 <Diablo-D3> X sends 3 to A
 860 2013-09-28 16:44:16 <Diablo-D3> Y sends 2 to B
 861 2013-09-28 16:44:19 <Diablo-D3> Z sends 1 to C
 862 2013-09-28 16:44:24 <Diablo-D3> I now have 6 coins
 863 2013-09-28 16:44:33 <Diablo-D3> because A, B, and C are my addresses
 864 2013-09-28 16:44:36 <sipa> you have 3 coins
 865 2013-09-28 16:44:45 <sipa> with values 3 BTC, 2 BTC and 1 BTC respectively
 866 2013-09-28 16:44:45 <Diablo-D3> you know what I mean
 867 2013-09-28 16:45:04 <Diablo-D3> my wallet's entirety is 3 tx worth 6 BTC
 868 2013-09-28 16:45:10 <sipa> 3 txouts, yes
 869 2013-09-28 16:45:22 <Diablo-D3> I then write a tx sending 6 BTC to someone else
 870 2013-09-28 16:45:32 <Diablo-D3> how am I allowed to do that
 871 2013-09-28 16:45:41 <sipa> your tx will have 3 inputs
 872 2013-09-28 16:45:53 <sipa> referring to the 3 previous txouts that credited your addresses
 873 2013-09-28 16:46:10 <sipa> the first one, spending X's 3 BTC sent to A, will contain a signature made with A's private key
 874 2013-09-28 16:46:23 <sipa> the second one, spending Y's 2 BTC sent to B, will contain a signature made with B's private key
 875 2013-09-28 16:46:35 <sipa> the third one, spending Z's 1 BTC sent to C, will contain a signature made with C's private key
 876 2013-09-28 16:47:27 <sipa> anyone validating it, will look up the 3 previous txouts being spent
 877 2013-09-28 16:47:35 <sipa> check that the public keys match
 878 2013-09-28 16:47:41 <sipa> and that the signatures match those public keys
 879 2013-09-28 16:47:51 <sipa> and that the sum of the values is not less than 6 BTC
 880 2013-09-28 16:48:46 <Diablo-D3> sipa: okay, so each txout has a signature?
 881 2013-09-28 16:48:53 <sipa> each txin has a signature
 882 2013-09-28 16:48:57 <Diablo-D3> errr right
 883 2013-09-28 16:49:01 <sipa> and each txin refers to exactly one previous txout
 884 2013-09-28 16:49:27 <sipa> a txout is (amount, pubkey), a txin is (txouthash, txoutindex, signature)
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 887 2013-09-28 16:51:34 <sipa> *txhash
 888 2013-09-28 16:52:42 <Diablo-D3> sipa: and I dont have to understand how signatures work, right? I can just treat them like a black box?
 889 2013-09-28 16:52:53 <sipa> that's just ecdsa
 890 2013-09-28 16:53:07 <Diablo-D3> yeah but I still dont understand the math on those
 891 2013-09-28 16:53:15 <sipa> depending on whether you're implementing ecdsa yourself (don't!), you treat them as a black box or not :)
 892 2013-09-28 16:53:31 <Diablo-D3> so
 893 2013-09-28 16:53:34 <sipa> you need to understand what is being signed
 894 2013-09-28 16:53:38 <Diablo-D3> to make bitcoin work
 895 2013-09-28 16:53:41 <sipa> but you just hand it to the crypto library
 896 2013-09-28 16:53:45 <Diablo-D3> 1) make a keypair
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 898 2013-09-28 16:54:06 <Diablo-D3> 2) ripmed160(sha256(pubkey)) is my address
 899 2013-09-28 16:54:28 <Diablo-D3> 3) ripemd160(my address) is what people use for txout
 900 2013-09-28 16:54:35 <Luke-Jr> no, that's only for an altcoin
 901 2013-09-28 16:54:46 <Luke-Jr> for bitcoin, you need to use sha256(pubkey) for address
 902 2013-09-28 16:54:50 <Diablo-D3> you know what I mean
 903 2013-09-28 16:54:59 <sipa> or ripemd160(sha256(pubkey))
 904 2013-09-28 16:55:33 <Diablo-D3> 4) then my bitcoind scans for tx's that use a txout target hash that is mine
 905 2013-09-28 16:56:01 <Diablo-D3> 6) then I construct a tx with txins that reference txouts in previous tx's, and I sign per txin
 906 2013-09-28 16:56:34 <sipa> you still need things like coin selection, dealing with change, ...
 907 2013-09-28 16:56:47 <Diablo-D3> yes, but that part I already understand
 908 2013-09-28 16:56:58 <sipa> integrating in something that will actually gives you transactions
 909 2013-09-28 16:57:06 <sipa> (an SPV or full node, for example)
 910 2013-09-28 16:57:16 <Diablo-D3> aaaaaaaaaaand
 911 2013-09-28 16:57:22 <Diablo-D3> hrm
 912 2013-09-28 16:57:40 <Diablo-D3> sipa: how do I verify a signature?
 913 2013-09-28 16:57:51 <sipa> for every transaction
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 915 2013-09-28 16:57:56 <sipa> for each of its inputs
 916 2013-09-28 16:57:59 <sipa> find the txout being spent
 917 2013-09-28 16:58:07 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yes but how do I verify it without knowing the public key
 918 2013-09-28 16:58:11 <sipa> you can't
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 920 2013-09-28 16:58:24 <sipa> your spending transaction contains the public key
 921 2013-09-28 16:58:29 <sipa> if that isn't in the address
 922 2013-09-28 16:58:39 <sipa> or in other words
 923 2013-09-28 16:58:44 <Diablo-D3> the address is a hash of the public key
 924 2013-09-28 16:58:57 <sipa> a bitcoin signature is (ecdsa signature, ecdsa pubkey)
 925 2013-09-28 16:59:05 <sipa> a bitcoin pubkey is (hash(ecdsa pubkey))
 926 2013-09-28 16:59:17 <Diablo-D3> so...
 927 2013-09-28 16:59:27 <Diablo-D3> why are we hashing pubkeys if we need to disclose the real pubkey anyhow?
 928 2013-09-28 16:59:41 <sipa> originally, because it made addresses shorter
 929 2013-09-28 16:59:55 <sipa> but it has other advantages, like making the UTXO set smaller
 930 2013-09-28 17:00:04 <sipa> and having some marginally better cryptographic properties
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 932 2013-09-28 17:00:19 <Diablo-D3> but if theres a flaw in ecdsa
 933 2013-09-28 17:00:27 <sipa> then we're doomed
 934 2013-09-28 17:00:29 <Diablo-D3> where I can produce privkeys from pubkeys
 935 2013-09-28 17:00:32 <sipa> doomed!
 936 2013-09-28 17:00:35 <Diablo-D3> well
 937 2013-09-28 17:00:36 <Diablo-D3> fuck =/
 938 2013-09-28 17:00:59 <Diablo-D3> sipa: okay so
 939 2013-09-28 17:01:01 <sipa> however, such an evolution is very unlikely to happen instantaeously
 940 2013-09-28 17:01:06 <Diablo-D3> this makes addresses smaller BUT
 941 2013-09-28 17:01:10 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt make signatures smaller
 942 2013-09-28 17:01:35 <Diablo-D3> since addresses take up 160, but signatures take up whatever the signature format uses
 943 2013-09-28 17:01:52 <Diablo-D3> so if I used lamport signatures
 944 2013-09-28 17:01:57 <sipa> meaning we'll see cryptographic breaks of ECDSA that reduce its security, without posing a practical danger, before there is an actual exploit
 945 2013-09-28 17:02:00 <Diablo-D3> txins would be fucking massive
 946 2013-09-28 17:02:04 <sipa> yes
 947 2013-09-28 17:02:18 <Diablo-D3> also, ECDSA may already be 100% compromised
 948 2013-09-28 17:02:22 <Diablo-D3> because of the NSA
 949 2013-09-28 17:02:27 slyda has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 950 2013-09-28 17:03:07 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so
 951 2013-09-28 17:03:11 <Diablo-D3> whats more damaging
 952 2013-09-28 17:03:15 <Diablo-D3> spamming tx to people
 953 2013-09-28 17:03:18 <Diablo-D3> er nm
 954 2013-09-28 17:03:22 <Diablo-D3> its the same thing
 955 2013-09-28 17:03:51 <Diablo-D3> so if I use lamport sigs
 956 2013-09-28 17:03:53 <Diablo-D3> say goodbye to my harddrive?
 957 2013-09-28 17:03:55 <sipa> jgarzik: jgarzik@bitpay.com seems to bounce
 958 2013-09-28 17:04:11 <jgarzik> GRUMBLE
 959 2013-09-28 17:04:26 <jgarzik> Google Google Google
 960 2013-09-28 17:04:33 <Diablo-D3> sipa: is there a secure signature that is computationally intensive?
 961 2013-09-28 17:04:40 <sipa> jgarzik: stephen@bitpay.com too
 962 2013-09-28 17:05:03 datagutt has joined
 963 2013-09-28 17:05:31 <jgarzik> sipa, are you directly emailing, or looking at listman bounces?
 964 2013-09-28 17:06:01 <jgarzik> sipa, trying to figure out if you have a trace that does not go through a mailing list remailer
 965 2013-09-28 17:06:05 <Diablo-D3> sipa: Im assuming no?
 966 2013-09-28 17:06:07 <jgarzik> s/trace/bounce/
 967 2013-09-28 17:06:14 Guest47992 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 968 2013-09-28 17:06:23 <sipa> jgarzik: bounce from bitcoin-dev mailinglist
 969 2013-09-28 17:06:34 <sipa> jgarzik: forwarded you the bounce notification
 970 2013-09-28 17:06:38 <sipa> in case you don
 971 2013-09-28 17:06:41 <sipa> 't get it yourself
 972 2013-09-28 17:07:13 <jgarzik> got your forward, and related, just had to re-enable mailing list membership due to listman complaining
 973 2013-09-28 17:07:46 <sipa> Diablo-D3: use a computationally intensive message hash?
 974 2013-09-28 17:07:54 <sipa> but why?
 975 2013-09-28 17:08:10 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so people cant spam txes
 976 2013-09-28 17:08:15 <jgarzik> .  Please
 977 2013-09-28 17:08:15 <jgarzik>     451 4.3.0 try again. t10si3441343vcr.35 - gsmtp:
 978 2013-09-28 17:08:15 <jgarzik>     retry timeout exceeded
 979 2013-09-28 17:08:17 <Diablo-D3> and fill up people's hds
 980 2013-09-28 17:08:23 <jgarzik> looks like Google ain't werkin
 981 2013-09-28 17:08:34 <sipa> heh
 982 2013-09-28 17:10:11 <jgarzik> exmulti.com never had this problem, but bitpay.com does.  both used Google Apps hosted solution.
 983 2013-09-28 17:10:20 <jgarzik> humdinger.
 984 2013-09-28 17:10:26 <sipa> has it happened before?
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 988 2013-09-28 17:25:46 <Diablo-D3> sipa: okay so, the txin of a tx contains a tx hash and the output index of that tx?
 989 2013-09-28 17:27:00 asuk has joined
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 991 2013-09-28 17:29:10 <Diablo-D3> sipa: on top of the sig stuff I mean
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 994 2013-09-28 17:29:20 <elevatioN> i have bitcoins for sale, cash in td bank
 995 2013-09-28 17:29:26 <elevatioN> omg sorry wrong room!
 996 2013-09-28 17:29:29 <elevatioN> dont kick me =)
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1003 2013-09-28 17:45:01 <Diablo-D3> https://www.evernote.com/shard/s248/sh/ee8aff03-2ecf-41b8-b6ee-63af30dd08c4/8031998db2bce43c3a02722b2c8aa217
1004 2013-09-28 17:45:10 <Diablo-D3> sipa, Luke-Jr: did I get anything wrong/
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1006 2013-09-28 17:46:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Diablo-D3: I suggest you read the Script article and the Transaction article on the wiki
1007 2013-09-28 17:46:23 <Diablo-D3> michagogo|cloud: nope
1008 2013-09-28 17:46:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm?
1009 2013-09-28 17:46:40 <Diablo-D3> Im not interested in reviving scripts for the altcoin Im never going to write
1010 2013-09-28 17:46:52 <Diablo-D3> and Ive read the original satoshi paper ;)
1011 2013-09-28 17:47:07 <sipa> Diablo-D3: in that case, i'm not interested in helping you write an altcoin :)
1012 2013-09-28 17:47:19 <Diablo-D3> sipa: good, because Im never going to write it =P
1013 2013-09-28 17:47:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Diablo-D3: The Script article also gives examples
1014 2013-09-28 17:47:26 <sipa> i assumed as muc
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1016 2013-09-28 17:47:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Explains what the verification does
1017 2013-09-28 17:47:39 <Diablo-D3> sipa: if I write one, its just to test out new ideas that may someday make it back into bitcoin
1018 2013-09-28 17:47:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, take a transaction from the network and getrawtransaction txid 1
1019 2013-09-28 17:48:42 <Diablo-D3> sipa: unlike, say, the 9000 altcoins that just replaced the genesis block and the network port and did NOTHING ELSE
1020 2013-09-28 17:48:59 <Diablo-D3> sipa: or the ones that did nothing else, but swapped out sha256 in mining for scrypt
1021 2013-09-28 17:49:07 <Diablo-D3> sipa: or the ones that did nothing else and just made blocks shorter
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1027 2013-09-28 17:52:09 * jgarzik tries to recall gmaxwell's nickname for amiller
1028 2013-09-28 17:52:46 <jgarzik> "one of the world's experts in authenticated data structures"?
1029 2013-09-28 17:52:51 <jgarzik> or was it provable data structures
1030 2013-09-28 17:53:29 * jgarzik is trying to find a generic English phrase for bitcoin's data structure use
1031 2013-09-28 17:54:30 <jgarzik> provable sounds more correct than authenticated
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1038 2013-09-28 18:12:09 <sipa> jgarzik: authenticated, afaik
1039 2013-09-28 18:12:27 <sipa> i'm not sure what a provable data structure would be; data doesn't claim anything
1040 2013-09-28 18:12:49 <sipa> it's authenticated in that you can use a short authenticated code that commits to the data
1041 2013-09-28 18:13:18 <jgarzik> sipa, the logic: you can prove it valid, or not.  authenticated implies to me a security procedure invoked by a human.
1042 2013-09-28 18:13:43 <jgarzik> in the sense of a math "proof"
1043 2013-09-28 18:13:51 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1044 2013-09-28 18:15:02 <sipa> jgarzik: hmm, i think i ascribe different meanings to those terms, but who am i :)
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1046 2013-09-28 18:20:19 <swulf--> sipa: is there a trivial way to disable blockchain downloading in bitcoind?
1047 2013-09-28 18:20:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: why?
1048 2013-09-28 18:21:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not without source editing and recompiling.
1049 2013-09-28 18:21:10 <swulf--> that's fine
1050 2013-09-28 18:21:10 <sipa> swulf--: -connect=0.0.0.0 :P
1051 2013-09-28 18:21:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Or having no connections)
1052 2013-09-28 18:21:36 <swulf--> Basically, I'd just like a node to be running so I can push transactions
1053 2013-09-28 18:21:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
1054 2013-09-28 18:21:44 <sipa> ah
1055 2013-09-28 18:21:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Stick a return somewhere
1056 2013-09-28 18:22:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(And ignore michagogo)
1057 2013-09-28 18:22:04 <michagogo> swulf--: As the topic used to say, what are you trying to do?
1058 2013-09-28 18:22:08 <swulf--> michagogo: I can track down that 'somewhere', but perhaps you guys can save me some time :)
1059 2013-09-28 18:22:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: well, actually...
1060 2013-09-28 18:22:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You'll also need to patch validation
1061 2013-09-28 18:22:31 <sipa> just never send a getdata
1062 2013-09-28 18:22:48 <sipa> and indeed, usually sending a transactions means just pushing it to your local mempool
1063 2013-09-28 18:22:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You need the utxo set to validate the transaction
1064 2013-09-28 18:22:58 <sipa> which will fail if you don't have an up-to-date chain
1065 2013-09-28 18:22:59 <swulf--> micha: sendrawtransaction will do some tx validation before sending?
1066 2013-09-28 18:23:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes
1067 2013-09-28 18:23:04 <sipa> yes
1068 2013-09-28 18:23:08 <swulf--> ok, easy to fix
1069 2013-09-28 18:23:14 <michagogo> It behaves as idf the tx came over the network
1070 2013-09-28 18:23:17 <michagogo> if*
1071 2013-09-28 18:23:30 <swulf--> fwiw, this is to push transactions to litecoin, not bitcoin
1072 2013-09-28 18:23:33 <michagogo> Maybe not *that* easy
1073 2013-09-28 18:23:36 <michagogo> Ahhh
1074 2013-09-28 18:23:40 <swulf--> litecoin doesn't seem to have any push pages for transactions
1075 2013-09-28 18:23:43 <michagogo> SO that's why you can't run a lite node
1076 2013-09-28 18:23:54 <michagogo> (unless those exist for litecoin)
1077 2013-09-28 18:24:05 <sipa> push pages?
1078 2013-09-28 18:24:10 <michagogo> like pushtx
1079 2013-09-28 18:24:12 <swulf--> sipa: like blockchain.info/pushtx
1080 2013-09-28 18:24:12 <sipa> ?
1081 2013-09-28 18:24:16 <sipa> oh
1082 2013-09-28 18:24:17 <sipa> meh :)
1083 2013-09-28 18:24:27 <swulf--> yeah..
1084 2013-09-28 18:25:27 <swulf--> Easy: AlreadyHave() can return true for MSG_BLOCK always
1085 2013-09-28 18:25:33 <michagogo> swulf--: You could always just take the network part of the code and use that to independantly fetch a list of peers from a dnsseed, connect to several, send a tx, and disconnect
1086 2013-09-28 18:25:58 <michagogo> IMO running all of bitcoind's code is overkill
1087 2013-09-28 18:26:03 <sipa> yeah
1088 2013-09-28 18:26:12 <sipa> some of the bitcoin network libraries may be easier
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1092 2013-09-28 18:26:36 <sipa> connect to 8, broadcast to 4, wait until you here it from any of the other 4
1093 2013-09-28 18:26:36 <swulf--> yeah, probably
1094 2013-09-28 18:26:41 <sipa> *hear
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1156 2013-09-28 20:12:54 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit real life
1157 2013-09-28 20:13:34 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so how many people would want me dead if my newcoin did not have scripts
1158 2013-09-28 20:14:28 <michagogo> Diablo-D3: What would you do instead?
1159 2013-09-28 20:14:56 eoss has joined
1160 2013-09-28 20:20:43 <Diablo-D3> michagogo: exactly one tx type
1161 2013-09-28 20:20:47 <Diablo-D3> you send money to someone else
1162 2013-09-28 20:20:59 <michagogo> Well
1163 2013-09-28 20:21:14 <michagogo> That takes away a huge amount of flexibility
1164 2013-09-28 20:21:17 <michagogo> no multisig, etc
1165 2013-09-28 20:21:22 <Diablo-D3> that no one is using anyhow
1166 2013-09-28 20:21:34 <michagogo> false
1167 2013-09-28 20:21:41 elevatioN has quit ()
1168 2013-09-28 20:21:42 <michagogo> people are starting to use that more now
1169 2013-09-28 20:22:12 <michagogo> I know shesek made something that mostly works that makes multisig-based dispute mediation work pretty easily
1170 2013-09-28 20:24:54 <sipa> if i'd create an altcoin now, it'd be P2SH only
1171 2013-09-28 20:25:06 <sipa> so you'd only have one type of address
1172 2013-09-28 20:26:19 <sipa> with addresses that encode SHA256(script), and txouts that contain SHA256^2(script)
1173 2013-09-28 20:28:46 <sipa> (which also means block explorer-like sites can't reverse-engineer an address from the blockcain, which is perfect)
1174 2013-09-28 20:28:51 <warren> It sounds like we have different mac corruption issue
1175 2013-09-28 20:29:05 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'd leave a hashtype flag in it for paranoia against future hash weaknessses. :P But yea.
1176 2013-09-28 20:29:20 <michagogo> so, p2shh?
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1195 2013-09-28 20:46:13 <BlueMatt> sipa: ping
1196 2013-09-28 20:47:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: pong
1197 2013-09-28 20:48:31 <BlueMatt> sipa: working on getting headersfirst+compariontool working...
1198 2013-09-28 20:48:45 <BlueMatt> cant get it to pass b12/13/14
1199 2013-09-28 20:49:00 <sipa> which does what , exactly?
1200 2013-09-28 20:49:19 <sipa> there may of course be a bug in headersfirst
1201 2013-09-28 20:49:39 <BlueMatt> for some reason when I send it an inv of b13 before b12, it requests headers for b12+b13 (as it should) but doesnt request the actual block b12 and then somehow accepts b13 without b12...
1202 2013-09-28 20:49:48 <BlueMatt> then never requests b14 when it gets an inv for it
1203 2013-09-28 20:50:23 <BlueMatt> I havent actually read headersfirst yet, but thats what appears to be happening from debug.log
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1205 2013-09-28 20:50:48 <sipa> you have that log somewhere?
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1207 2013-09-28 20:51:39 <sipa> it should request b13 before b12, i expect
1208 2013-09-28 20:51:45 <sipa> but request b12 too
1209 2013-09-28 20:52:01 <sipa> unless b13 isn't actually the new longest chain
1210 2013-09-28 20:52:43 * Diablo-D3 has no clue whats being discussed
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1214 2013-09-28 21:07:08 <nanotube> so it seems that http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/ hasn't been updated in a while... is there something similar which tracks bitcoin network health?
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1216 2013-09-28 21:09:18 <gmaxwell> nanotube: that thing was never very useful or accurate.
1217 2013-09-28 21:10:10 <BlueMatt> has there ever been a particularly accurate + useful network node monitor?
1218 2013-09-28 21:12:41 <gmaxwell> the seeds are the closest I think but they don't make nifty over-time graphs.
1219 2013-09-28 21:14:29 <BlueMatt> nor are they particularly correct last I checked...last time I looked the number varied randomly through time with no clear evidence node counts were actually changing
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1221 2013-09-28 21:15:34 <nanotube> hmm... so that's a no then eh. :)
1222 2013-09-28 21:16:56 <mappum> wow, so has the network size really declined that much?
1223 2013-09-28 21:17:11 bizoro has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1224 2013-09-28 21:17:13 <mappum> is that because of changes in the mining distribution?
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1227 2013-09-28 21:18:39 <BlueMatt> mappum: p(the data you're looking being bad) = +/- .9
1228 2013-09-28 21:21:00 <mappum> BlueMatt: negative probability?
1229 2013-09-28 21:21:26 <BlueMatt> ~.09
1230 2013-09-28 21:21:27 <BlueMatt> .9
1231 2013-09-28 21:21:34 <mappum> i know :P
1232 2013-09-28 21:22:04 <devthedevpro> So, I'm making a Mining pool. lol
1233 2013-09-28 21:22:12 <devthedevpro> And, I've set it up on Koding.com. lol
1234 2013-09-28 21:22:24 <devthedevpro> I wonder if it'll be stable enough
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1238 2013-09-28 21:28:22 <BlueMatt> has anyone figured out why autotools made building so much slower yet?
1239 2013-09-28 21:32:31 <nanotube> well it's not called fasttools, it's called autotools. no speed promises. >_> :)
1240 2013-09-28 21:32:45 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1241 2013-09-28 21:32:54 <gmaxwell> mappum: the high numbers in that chart were BS.. though yes, it does appear that the network size has declined.
1242 2013-09-28 21:33:12 patcon has joined
1243 2013-09-28 21:33:13 <gmaxwell> I think it has less to do with mining (though some) than it does with the rise of webwallets and spv clients.
1244 2013-09-28 21:33:25 <gmaxwell> and the increasing resources required to run a full node.
1245 2013-09-28 21:34:04 <gmaxwell> not to mention bitcoin.org promoting thin clients over full nodes. ::shrugs::
1246 2013-09-28 21:34:06 <mappum> ah. i guess it would be better to look at a graph of volume to look at real usage
1247 2013-09-28 21:34:19 <BlueMatt> nanotube: no, I mean the actual compile step is slower
1248 2013-09-28 21:34:30 <gmaxwell> mappum: volume?
1249 2013-09-28 21:34:48 <mappum> gmaxwell: total of outputs
1250 2013-09-28 21:34:57 <BlueMatt> also a terrible metric
1251 2013-09-28 21:35:05 <gmaxwell> outputs?
1252 2013-09-28 21:36:01 <mappum> of txs...
1253 2013-09-28 21:36:16 <nanotube> mappum: transaction counts/values graphs exist on blockchain.info
1254 2013-09-28 21:36:29 <mappum> that's what i'm looking at
1255 2013-09-28 21:37:17 <nanotube> but those are kind of orthogonal to network health as far as full node counts and inbound connection slot availability
1256 2013-09-28 21:37:38 B0g4r7__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1258 2013-09-28 21:37:59 <mappum> oh, i'm just interested in adoption, i'm not talking about network health
1259 2013-09-28 21:38:09 <gmaxwell> mappum: you can't measure adoption that way.
1260 2013-09-28 21:38:34 <mappum> i guess i mean, usage, not adoption
1261 2013-09-28 21:38:54 <gmaxwell> One bozo with a shell script might be bouncing around coins constantly ... vs ... a million actual users trading between mtgox accounts or inputs.io creating on transactions at all.
1262 2013-09-28 21:39:13 <gmaxwell> usage either.
1263 2013-09-28 21:39:34 <mappum> true, but the system is big enough that you should still see trends
1264 2013-09-28 21:39:50 B0g4r7 has joined
1265 2013-09-28 21:40:12 <BlueMatt> not really, in this case
1266 2013-09-28 21:40:22 <BlueMatt> at least not reliably
1267 2013-09-28 21:40:44 <nanotube> gmaxwell: as far as .org page, it basically says how it is - mainline is resource intensive and takes a while to sync, other stuff is 'fast and easy'. that said, if you have suggestions for improving the choose your wallet page, i bet people would consider it.
1268 2013-09-28 21:41:40 <gmaxwell> nanotube: I think the reference client needs to be made smoother to install first. people howling about it being a week or whatever is not acceptable.
1269 2013-09-28 21:42:05 <gmaxwell> Once sipa's headers first stuff is in things will be greatly improved.
1270 2013-09-28 21:42:07 <warren> a week ?
1271 2013-09-28 21:42:07 <nanotube> mappum: no single metric is going to be sufficient, but putting together tx counts, values, bitcoin days destroyed (which includes coin age), bitpay merchant counts and tx volume... altogether can give you some idea.
1272 2013-09-28 21:42:29 <nanotube> warren: maybe if you get stuck pulling from a really slow peer.
1273 2013-09-28 21:42:49 <nanotube> or have a really slow hd? or insufficient ram so that things start getting paged to disk?
1274 2013-09-28 21:43:05 <nanotube> yea week seems high to me... but it's not out of the realm of possibility
1275 2013-09-28 21:43:10 <gmaxwell> warren: it can happen, if you have crap peer selection luck plus a slow system.
1276 2013-09-28 21:43:21 <warren> BlueMatt: I thought builds were slower with autotools until I actually measured it, it's not much different if building clean vs. clean.  Perhaps it is slower for cached objects though.
1277 2013-09-28 21:43:27 <gmaxwell> some of these folks are turning their computers off and counting that in the time too.
1278 2013-09-28 21:43:36 <nanotube> haha
1279 2013-09-28 21:43:55 <nanotube> "i turned my computer off and went to sleep. when i woke up and turned it on, it still wasn't synced!"
1280 2013-09-28 21:43:57 <BlueMatt> warren: it also misses cached objects for me sometimes
1281 2013-09-28 21:43:59 <gmaxwell> User expirence is not always a fair thing: at the end of the day it doesn't matter how good our stuff is if the user is still unhappy.
1282 2013-09-28 21:44:46 <BlueMatt> warren: especially across checkouts, which confuses it too much
1283 2013-09-28 21:51:37 <sipa> did someone already write a script to do github merges with GPG-signed commits?
1284 2013-09-28 21:51:50 <sipa> should be easy to do, and removes any ability for github to mess with our repo
1285 2013-09-28 21:52:21 <michagogo> question: can I `gpg --import secring.gpg`?
1286 2013-09-28 21:52:21 Application has joined
1287 2013-09-28 21:52:28 <sipa> i think so
1288 2013-09-28 21:54:28 devthedevpro has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1289 2013-09-28 21:55:12 <michagogo> What is/are Luke's key(s)? I appear to have D53E9583 and 21F4889F in gpg --list-keys
1290 2013-09-28 21:55:21 <michagogo> and both say [expired: 2013-06-09]
1291 2013-09-28 21:58:54 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1301 2013-09-28 22:10:05 <Diablo-D3> sipa: Ive figured out what to call digital signatures, btw
1302 2013-09-28 22:10:05 enikanorov has joined
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1304 2013-09-28 22:10:10 <Diablo-D3> sipa: mathemagical
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1322 2013-09-28 22:37:53 diki has joined
1323 2013-09-28 22:38:10 <diki> Which is the most lightweight thin client?
1324 2013-09-28 22:38:18 asuk is now known as afk!~asuk@31.129.27.89|asuk
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1326 2013-09-28 22:38:26 <michagogo> electrum?
1327 2013-09-28 22:38:35 <sipa> do you consider a webbrowser that can display blockchain.info a "client" ?
1328 2013-09-28 22:38:41 <michagogo> Ah, or that :-P
1329 2013-09-28 22:38:54 <sipa> (not that i would suggest that, but "most lightweight" isn't very well defined)
1330 2013-09-28 22:39:07 <diki> blockchain.info is insecure
1331 2013-09-28 22:39:08 <sipa> if you require it to validate the chain, electrum
1332 2013-09-28 22:39:19 <sipa> if you require it to be a network node, multibit
1333 2013-09-28 22:39:22 <diki> I can tell from first glance from all the threads with stolen coins and bruteforced accounts
1334 2013-09-28 22:39:28 <sipa> if you require it to validate transactions, bitcoin-qt
1335 2013-09-28 22:39:48 <diki> I just need to spend some coins from my wallet w/o downloading the blockchain(mainly due to space limitations)
1336 2013-09-28 22:40:27 <lianj> how do you do coin selection without downloading the blockchain?
1337 2013-09-28 22:40:53 <sipa> coin selection only requires you to know your own spendable outputs
1338 2013-09-28 22:40:56 <sipa> not everyone's
1339 2013-09-28 22:41:13 <diki> Erm, I don't want to select anything.
1340 2013-09-28 22:41:24 <sipa> the client will do coin selection for you
1341 2013-09-28 22:41:29 <sipa> every wallet implementation does
1342 2013-09-28 22:43:03 <diki> I've always been a full node, but since my HDD space is not unlimited, I have to purge the blockchain or use a thin client.
1343 2013-09-28 22:46:33 agricocb has joined
1344 2013-09-28 22:46:46 <michagogo> [01:38:18] <diki> I just need to spend some coins from my wallet w/o downloading the blockchain(mainly due to space limitations)
1345 2013-09-28 22:46:51 <michagogo> Multibit works, then.
1346 2013-09-28 22:47:26 <michagogo> (so does upgrading your HD)
1347 2013-09-28 22:48:09 <michagogo> (or if on a desktop, adding another HD)
1348 2013-09-28 22:48:14 <diki> I wish, but they cost money you know :)
1349 2013-09-28 22:48:25 <michagogo> Yes, but not very much :-D
1350 2013-09-28 22:48:27 <diki> My biggest priority is buying a new gaming machine, as my current one is now old
1351 2013-09-28 22:49:13 <diki> Just to ask. Does multibit download the blockchain and is it compatible with -qt wallet.dat wallets?
1352 2013-09-28 22:49:39 <michagogo> diki: 1) No.
1353 2013-09-28 22:49:42 <michagogo> 2) No, I think
1354 2013-09-28 22:49:57 <diki> Ah, well that is my current problem now then
1355 2013-09-28 22:50:03 <diki> Is there one that is compatible?
1356 2013-09-28 22:50:07 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1357 2013-09-28 22:51:05 the_2nd has joined
1358 2013-09-28 22:51:29 * michagogo doesn't know of any
1359 2013-09-28 22:51:40 <michagogo> you could always dump and import, though
1360 2013-09-28 22:51:48 <diki> :(
1361 2013-09-28 22:52:00 <michagogo> ;;google multibit import wallet.dat
1362 2013-09-28 22:52:01 <gribble> How do I import private keys from Bitcoin-qt to Multibit client ...: <http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5324/how-do-i-import-private-keys-from-bitcoin-qt-to-multibit-client>; bitcoin qt - What other wallets can import Qt's backup .dat file ...: <http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/10095/what-other-wallets-can-import-qts-backup-dat-file>; import encrypted wallet.dat to (1 more message)
1363 2013-09-28 22:52:13 <michagogo> ;;more
1364 2013-09-28 22:52:13 <gribble> multibit - Bitcoin Forum: <https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228334.0>
1365 2013-09-28 22:52:36 <diki> as I suspected, pywallet
1366 2013-09-28 22:53:07 Coincide_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1367 2013-09-28 22:53:09 <diki> I am pretty busy with gaming and developing my game, but there needs to be a one-click converted from -Qt wallet to MultiBit or otherwise.
1368 2013-09-28 22:53:12 <michagogo> Erm, what...
1369 2013-09-28 22:53:14 <michagogo> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/5325/1161
1370 2013-09-28 22:53:20 <michagogo> "sipa format private keys"?
1371 2013-09-28 22:53:39 <michagogo> oh, lol
1372 2013-09-28 22:53:43 <michagogo> Still strange to see people name the base58 private key format after me. I'd prefer them adding support for compressed public keys (which I also came up with, including the base58 format...). – Pieter Wuille Nov 11 '12 at 19:33
1373 2013-09-28 22:56:55 <diki> well, I'll pass on exporting the private keys for now, not really in the mood. Thanks anyway though!
1374 2013-09-28 22:57:46 <sipa> git head has a dumpwallet RPC
1375 2013-09-28 22:58:05 <sipa> which exports in a file format that multibit can import
1376 2013-09-28 22:58:23 <diki> yeah, but the point of all of this was so that I do not open -Qt at all
1377 2013-09-28 22:58:37 <diki> as it will sync and eat up the remaining ~300mb of my space
1378 2013-09-28 22:59:25 <sipa> run with -connect=0.0.0.0 to prevent syncing
1379 2013-09-28 22:59:47 <sipa> alao, just 300 MB disk sounds like a problem no matter what :)
1380 2013-09-28 23:00:02 qbasicer has joined
1381 2013-09-28 23:01:04 datagutt has joined
1382 2013-09-28 23:01:59 <diki> Yeah, my drive is almost full.
1383 2013-09-28 23:02:05 <diki> Too much important data right now
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1392 2013-09-28 23:12:03 <sipa> gmaxwell: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1nbmet/somebody_stole_over_13_btc_from_my_brainwallet_wtf/
1393 2013-09-28 23:12:10 catcowllama has joined
1394 2013-09-28 23:13:29 <gmaxwell> yea... I dunno how to convince people stop doing this.
1395 2013-09-28 23:13:55 <sipa> stories like this may help
1396 2013-09-28 23:15:32 catcow has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1397 2013-09-28 23:16:14 Polyatomic has joined
1398 2013-09-28 23:17:50 <diki> well, that's an alternative bitcoin mining thing
1399 2013-09-28 23:18:00 <diki> some guy was mining for brain wallets and found one
1400 2013-09-28 23:18:09 <diki> money well earned, won't you agree?
1401 2013-09-28 23:18:18 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1402 2013-09-28 23:18:48 <sipa> i'd rather see people collectively learn that brainwallets, in the way most people use them, are terribly insecure
1403 2013-09-28 23:19:33 <diki> Which gave me an idea.
1404 2013-09-28 23:19:40 <diki> Using fingerprint as private key
1405 2013-09-28 23:19:49 <sipa> as in from actual fingers?
1406 2013-09-28 23:19:53 <diki> yes.
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1408 2013-09-28 23:20:02 <diki> Should be possible with iPhone 5s
1409 2013-09-28 23:20:09 <diki> but who knows, could be insecure
1410 2013-09-28 23:20:09 <sipa> you can compare to fingerprints
1411 2013-09-28 23:20:19 <sipa> you can't turn them into a stable bitsequence
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1414 2013-09-28 23:20:45 <diki> well, an algorithm could be devised
1415 2013-09-28 23:20:56 <sipa> how?
1416 2013-09-28 23:21:07 <sipa> fingers do not remain pixel-identical over your lifetime
1417 2013-09-28 23:22:18 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i love apples marketing stuff about only storing a "hash" of your fingerprint
1418 2013-09-28 23:22:48 <phantomcircuit> that entire technology was developed by the FBI to make their national fingerprint database easily searchable...
1419 2013-09-28 23:23:26 <diki> sipa:What about the eyes? Are they affected by aging?
1420 2013-09-28 23:23:40 <sipa> diki: it's not about ageing at all
1421 2013-09-28 23:23:58 <lianj> is the sensor good or the same junk as cheap readers? because the ccc applied their same technique that works on cheap ones and it worked
1422 2013-09-28 23:24:03 asuk has quit ()
1423 2013-09-28 23:24:03 <sipa> (well, i did add that, and it doesn't help, but they're just not stable)
1424 2013-09-28 23:24:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: the problem is that people just blame the victims. "you used a dumb one, but I'm smart"
1425 2013-09-28 23:24:17 <sipa> diki: two images of your fingers will never be identical
1426 2013-09-28 23:24:23 <sipa> so hashes of them won't be identical either
1427 2013-09-28 23:24:30 <sipa> you need the actual images to compare
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1431 2013-09-28 23:27:53 <midnightmagic> that kind of reasoning can be used to justify anyone being luckier than anyone else, or anyne tricking anyone else.
1432 2013-09-28 23:28:03 <diki> well, it should be viable for a while, shouldn't it? I am sure the NSA probably use fingerprint, eye scanning to verify the identity of their workers.
1433 2013-09-28 23:28:10 <sipa> diki: ...
1434 2013-09-28 23:28:41 <sipa> diki: no two images of your fingers *ever* will be pixel-per-pixel *identical*
1435 2013-09-28 23:28:44 <sipa> they will be very similar
1436 2013-09-28 23:29:02 <sipa> but there is always noise, small movement, heart beats that change color, ...
1437 2013-09-28 23:29:16 <sipa> so you can't compare two images by comparing their hashes
1438 2013-09-28 23:29:26 <midnightmagic> scanning retinas is bad, as retinas change naturally even from a few months to a few months later.
1439 2013-09-28 23:29:27 <sipa> you need to compare the actual images
1440 2013-09-28 23:30:18 <gmaxwell> There are perceptual hashes, but even there they either require non exact comparison or they're very lossy and easy to collide.
1441 2013-09-28 23:30:28 <midnightmagic> scanning irises is better, but neither it not fingerprints can be changed. biometrics is a fancy password, and completely unnecessary.
1442 2013-09-28 23:31:16 <Diablo-D3> its also something thats not secure
1443 2013-09-28 23:31:19 <midnightmagic> also risky
1444 2013-09-28 23:31:22 <Diablo-D3> its not protected by the constitution
1445 2013-09-28 23:31:32 <Diablo-D3> and the government can use yours to unlock your devices and incriminate you freely
1446 2013-09-28 23:31:33 <midnightmagic> also you leave them everywhere you go
1447 2013-09-28 23:31:44 <Diablo-D3> its why no one serious about security uses them
1448 2013-09-28 23:31:52 <Diablo-D3> they're information about you, its not something you know
1449 2013-09-28 23:31:53 qbasicer_ has joined
1450 2013-09-28 23:32:35 <HaltingState> is anyone who does bitcoin interested in golang? i know someone looking for golang people
1451 2013-09-28 23:32:55 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: consider erlang instead
1452 2013-09-28 23:33:16 <HaltingState> no one uses erlang
1453 2013-09-28 23:33:22 <Diablo-D3> lol
1454 2013-09-28 23:33:25 <midnightmagic> i sure hear it mentioned a lot
1455 2013-09-28 23:33:27 <Diablo-D3> no, people use erlang, no one uses go.
1456 2013-09-28 23:33:34 <diki> HaltingState:There was a guy who re-implemented the bitcoin protocol in Go
1457 2013-09-28 23:33:39 <Diablo-D3> even google is hardly using go, and they wrote it
1458 2013-09-28 23:33:42 <HaltingState> i know a penny auction site that some guy wrote in erlang and then the CTO left and they could not find anyone who could write erlang and its like 4 people
1459 2013-09-28 23:33:55 <midnightmagic> well I'm convinced.
1460 2013-09-28 23:33:56 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt solve the concurrency HA problem well, and its not particularly good for anything else
1461 2013-09-28 23:34:29 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: did they bother asking in #erlang (almost 400 people) or on the erlang ml (a few thousand)?
1462 2013-09-28 23:34:34 <HaltingState> i was a go skeptic at first, but its actually very good language; it is in between c and python; i dont know if it will gain adoption
1463 2013-09-28 23:34:53 <HaltingState> 99% of software is PHP and Java
1464 2013-09-28 23:35:00 <Diablo-D3> yes, and 99% of software is pure shit
1465 2013-09-28 23:35:05 <diki> HaltingState:Diablo loves Java :P
1466 2013-09-28 23:35:09 <Diablo-D3> why would you want to write in a language that makes your job hard
1467 2013-09-28 23:35:11 <HaltingState> python is ok and C# is ok, in that you can hire people to work on it; but not erlang
1468 2013-09-28 23:35:17 <Diablo-D3> diki: dont troll him, he doesnt know better
1469 2013-09-28 23:35:24 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: lol.
1470 2013-09-28 23:35:31 <Diablo-D3> with erlang, you need to hire far fewer people
1471 2013-09-28 23:35:41 <HaltingState> I used D and i liked D, but no one knows it
1472 2013-09-28 23:35:48 <diki> or pick a more common language
1473 2013-09-28 23:35:49 <Diablo-D3> D was kind of a failure
1474 2013-09-28 23:35:54 <diki> and have far more people that can do the job
1475 2013-09-28 23:35:56 <Diablo-D3> it fixed problems that languages before it already fixed
1476 2013-09-28 23:36:03 <HaltingState> Diablo-D3, paul graham said the same thing about lisp; he wrote viaweb in lisp and then when yahoo bought it they had to rewrite it into perl
1477 2013-09-28 23:36:20 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: yes, and pg's is not wrong about lisp
1478 2013-09-28 23:36:28 <Diablo-D3> racket is one of the most elegant lisp machines Ive ever seen
1479 2013-09-28 23:36:32 mappum has joined
1480 2013-09-28 23:36:41 <Diablo-D3> yahoo is fucking retarded for not teaching their development team lisp
1481 2013-09-28 23:36:56 <Diablo-D3> programmers should only program in languages that make their job easier
1482 2013-09-28 23:37:10 <HaltingState> most programmers cannot even handle C++ let along erlang
1483 2013-09-28 23:37:17 <diki> Trying something new once in a while isn't that bad
1484 2013-09-28 23:37:18 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: see
1485 2013-09-28 23:37:22 <Diablo-D3> thats why you're an idiot
1486 2013-09-28 23:37:27 <HaltingState> I have employees who are horrible in C++'; they cant do arrays, but they are really really productive in C# because it babies them
1487 2013-09-28 23:37:27 <Diablo-D3> C++ fights programmers
1488 2013-09-28 23:37:36 <Diablo-D3> programmers spend thousands of man hours fighting the language
1489 2013-09-28 23:37:49 <Diablo-D3> with erlang? its easy and simple to learn and you never have to fight it
1490 2013-09-28 23:37:56 <HaltingState> so i switched to C#; i cant fight it; the best languages are languages that baby the developer and have good documentation
1491 2013-09-28 23:38:09 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: yes, and c# doesnt baby the programmer
1492 2013-09-28 23:38:37 <Diablo-D3> if it did, it wouldnt allow threads, be actors-based for concurrency, and simply not allow you to write most common forms of bugs
1493 2013-09-28 23:38:53 <Diablo-D3> plus, the .net vm is atrocious
1494 2013-09-28 23:39:08 <diki> And yet lots of people use C# for games
1495 2013-09-28 23:39:19 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: c# requires too much overhead for the programmer in the thinking department
1496 2013-09-28 23:39:24 <Diablo-D3> diki: because xbox.
1497 2013-09-28 23:39:28 <HaltingState> C# is like baby C++; it does not require the discipline of C++; i had guy and i thought "wow this guy is great" because of stuff he did in C# and then he tried C++ and was useless and i realized that C# just requires less skill and attention than C++; its harder to screw up and people are more productive; there are libraries for everything
1498 2013-09-28 23:39:31 <Diablo-D3> diki: not because they know any better
1499 2013-09-28 23:39:45 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: no, c# is like java but different just for the sake of being different (so sun/oracle cant sue)
1500 2013-09-28 23:40:00 <HaltingState> C# is a lot different than java
1501 2013-09-28 23:40:06 <Diablo-D3> lol.
1502 2013-09-28 23:40:12 <Diablo-D3> before they called it c#, they called it j++.
1503 2013-09-28 23:40:17 <Diablo-D3> which sun DID sue over.
1504 2013-09-28 23:40:17 <diki> lol
1505 2013-09-28 23:40:21 <Diablo-D3> but nice try there.
1506 2013-09-28 23:40:32 <sipa> it's quite similar, but they did learn a few things from java
1507 2013-09-28 23:40:35 <HaltingState> i dont like microsoft languages but C# is just a really well designed language
1508 2013-09-28 23:40:49 <HaltingState> the ide is a lot better than the java ides also
1509 2013-09-28 23:40:50 <diki> I think to each his own.
1510 2013-09-28 23:40:52 <Diablo-D3> sipa: not really. they added things they thought they needed, but in the end just muddled the language futher
1511 2013-09-28 23:41:03 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: which ide. on either side.
1512 2013-09-28 23:41:09 <HaltingState> monodevelop
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1514 2013-09-28 23:41:14 <HaltingState> vs eclipse or netbeans
1515 2013-09-28 23:41:16 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: visual studio vs intellij? sharp/monodevelop vs eclipse?
1516 2013-09-28 23:41:21 <diki> Diablo-D3:Which languages do you consider to be good/great/best?
1517 2013-09-28 23:41:29 <Diablo-D3> diki: thats a very short list.
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1519 2013-09-28 23:41:58 <Diablo-D3> diki: racket and chicken scheme are nice if you're looking for a lisp, erlang is nice if you want to have readaable syntax
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1523 2013-09-28 23:42:23 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: the problem is, once your language REQUIRES an ide, your language is automatically wrong.
1524 2013-09-28 23:42:33 <Diablo-D3> c# and java are both fucking hell to program for without one of their IDEs
1525 2013-09-28 23:42:37 <HaltingState> just dogma
1526 2013-09-28 23:42:38 <diki> I usually use a normal text editor
1527 2013-09-28 23:42:42 <diki> I don't like IDEs
1528 2013-09-28 23:42:47 <HaltingState> i use sublime for most things
1529 2013-09-28 23:42:49 <Diablo-D3> IDEs are a crutch for programmers
1530 2013-09-28 23:43:00 <HaltingState> i dont like the IDEs, but C# is not hell without IDE
1531 2013-09-28 23:43:08 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: trust me, it is
1532 2013-09-28 23:43:16 <Diablo-D3> c# is just too complex for a serious programmer to use on a daily basis
1533 2013-09-28 23:43:16 <sipa> de gustibus et coloribus
1534 2013-09-28 23:43:23 <sipa> can we take this discussion elsewhere?
1535 2013-09-28 23:43:26 <HaltingState> only if you use inheritance, which i dont believe in; i keep objects flat as possible
1536 2013-09-28 23:43:29 <Diablo-D3> sipa: pretty sure thats bad latin
1537 2013-09-28 23:43:43 <HaltingState> golang does not have inheritance and its a plus
1538 2013-09-28 23:43:44 <sipa> ...
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1540 2013-09-28 23:43:52 <Diablo-D3> HaltingState: but inheritance is part of the language, thus shall be used by other people to screw you over when you least expect it
1541 2013-09-28 23:44:02 <sipa> can we take this discussion elsewhere?
1542 2013-09-28 23:44:03 apurplehorse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1544 2013-09-28 23:44:09 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey, where were you earlier?
1545 2013-09-28 23:44:22 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, any ripple alt coins yet? its been 48 hours
1546 2013-09-28 23:44:39 <diki> ripple?
1547 2013-09-28 23:44:42 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: is there a computationally expensive yet secure digital signature?
1548 2013-09-28 23:44:44 <diki> what about em?
1549 2013-09-28 23:44:50 <HaltingState> they open sourced server
1550 2013-09-28 23:44:51 <Diablo-D3> diki: they opensourced their shitpile
1551 2013-09-28 23:44:53 <gmaxwell> Both of you are way offtopic.
1552 2013-09-28 23:45:23 <HaltingState> this is the dev channel; i am trying to avoid language trolling. i think its just dogma, dont care about lisp
1553 2013-09-28 23:45:41 <HaltingState> i was asking for golang people in bitcoin community; not language debate, which is pointless
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