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  19 2013-09-29 00:36:09 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
  20 2013-09-29 00:36:49 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=304060.0 < apparently new wallet software fixeded around a model where people have constant addresses and where you identify "from" by inspecting transaction history: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=304060.0
  21 2013-09-29 00:37:32 <sipa> hmm?
  22 2013-09-29 00:38:30 <sipa> as luke remarked earlier, those "from"s seem to be in hex
  23 2013-09-29 00:39:32 <gmaxwell> hm!
  24 2013-09-29 00:39:42 <gmaxwell> what do they mean then?
  25 2013-09-29 00:39:49 <sipa> i would guess txids
  26 2013-09-29 00:39:56 <sipa> though they look non-random, so maybe they just appear to be hex
  27 2013-09-29 00:40:05 <sipa> while they're really addresses
  28 2013-09-29 00:40:09 <gmaxwell> yea, actually it's probably just a mockup.
  29 2013-09-29 00:40:11 <gmaxwell> yea.
  30 2013-09-29 00:40:49 <gmaxwell> (I don't have a way to run it or I'd test, well perhaps I can borrow a mac from someone tomorrow)
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 186 2013-09-29 06:52:36 <CodeShark> anyone here have much experience cross-compiling from unix to w64?
 187 2013-09-29 06:52:40 <CodeShark> err, linux
 188 2013-09-29 06:52:43 licnep has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 189 2013-09-29 06:52:57 <CodeShark> using the gcc toolchain
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 195 2013-09-29 07:06:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: you could look at gitian-win32.yml
 196 2013-09-29 07:07:32 <CodeShark> hmmm - I'm close to getting mingw64 to work
 197 2013-09-29 07:07:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|contrib/giti(tab)esc(tab)/that
 198 2013-09-29 07:08:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And also doc/release-process.md
 199 2013-09-29 07:08:26 <CodeShark> yeah, I probably should take a look at that
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 201 2013-09-29 07:11:51 <CodeShark> oh sweet - my last try worked :)
 202 2013-09-29 07:12:58 <CodeShark> alright, I think I'm good :)
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 215 2013-09-29 07:52:38 <warren> CodeShark: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3029
 216 2013-09-29 07:52:47 <warren> CodeShark: this with minor modifications will build w64
 217 2013-09-29 07:53:18 <CodeShark> warren: thank you. I think I'm getting the hang of this, just had never done this before.
 218 2013-09-29 07:53:36 <warren> CodeShark: although this was done only for win32 in order to enable all the hardening flags, impossible with the old ming32 in 10.04
 219 2013-09-29 07:54:26 <CodeShark> yeah, I'm using mingw64 on 12.04
 220 2013-09-29 07:55:02 <warren> CodeShark: I'm interested in your notes on build flags or workarounds needed for win64, even though there are no immediate plans for gitian win64 until we have a major performance reason to do so.
 221 2013-09-29 07:56:25 ThomasV has joined
 222 2013-09-29 07:59:20 <warren> CodeShark: hmm, I'm curious if you also have an opportunity to compare win32 to win64 reindex performance.
 223 2013-09-29 07:59:42 <CodeShark> I'm not currently building bitcoind, but I probably will be in the not-too-distant future
 224 2013-09-29 07:59:49 <warren> ooh, ok
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 227 2013-09-29 08:04:30 <warren> sipa: "Modern g++, so we can start using for example C++11 features and -flto"
 228 2013-09-29 08:05:29 <warren> sipa: do C+11 features require a newer libstdc++?  Does newer versions of glibc have any built-in requirements of LTO?  I don't know, these things happened after I left Red Hat.
 229 2013-09-29 08:06:10 <warren> (I'm not certain modern g++ with old glibc would work.)
 230 2013-09-29 08:23:52 <sipa> warren: lto requires no library support afaik
 231 2013-09-29 08:24:12 <sipa> warren: forbsome c++11, likely
 232 2013-09-29 08:24:29 <sipa> *for some c++11 stuff
 233 2013-09-29 08:25:36 <warren> then the real question is if modern g++ can build to old libstdc++, they probably didn't test it that way at all.
 234 2013-09-29 08:26:20 <sipa> static libstdc++? :)
 235 2013-09-29 08:26:30 <warren> static everything!
 236 2013-09-29 08:27:00 <sipa> that certainly is an easy solution
 237 2013-09-29 08:27:23 <sipa> but i'd certainly prefer using system libc at least
 238 2013-09-29 08:27:23 <warren> we have reasons against that, that isn't LGPL taint?
 239 2013-09-29 08:27:40 <sipa> lgpl is fine, no?
 240 2013-09-29 08:27:49 <sipa> as long as it is not gpl
 241 2013-09-29 08:27:51 <warren> LGPL static linking doesn't
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 243 2013-09-29 08:27:58 <sipa> ah
 244 2013-09-29 08:28:11 <warren> the win32 gitian binary already static links glibc and libstdc++ though
 245 2013-09-29 08:29:07 <warren> I suppose reasons against that would be taint, memory bloat and bigger downloads.
 246 2013-09-29 08:29:49 <warren> sipa: should we be concerned that we're using vanilla unpatched libaries? boost for example has a HUGE number of patches in distros...
 247 2013-09-29 08:31:18 superman2016 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 248 2013-09-29 08:32:16 <sipa> hmm, it may be worth reviewing ose sets of patches
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 252 2013-09-29 08:49:01 <warren> well, that's mainly a concern for win and mac that includes its own boost
 253 2013-09-29 08:49:23 <warren> I just called windows win.  /me cringes.
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 304 2013-09-29 11:16:52 <nkuttler> why does getbalance return a bigger value than getbalance minconf=foo which is always 0 for me?
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 308 2013-09-29 11:17:56 <nkuttler> foo being 0..50
 309 2013-09-29 11:19:42 <michagogo> oh
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 311 2013-09-29 11:19:55 <michagogo> if you specify a minconf you also need to specify an account
 312 2013-09-29 11:20:01 <michagogo> getbalance [account] [minconf=1]
 313 2013-09-29 11:20:01 <michagogo> If [account] is not specified, returns the server's total available balance.
 314 2013-09-29 11:20:01 <michagogo> If [account] is specified, returns the balance in the account.
 315 2013-09-29 11:20:13 <michagogo> (that should really be fixed)
 316 2013-09-29 11:20:25 <nkuttler> michagogo: ah!
 317 2013-09-29 11:20:44 <michagogo> actually, that's a problem
 318 2013-09-29 11:20:53 <michagogo> Because you can't just specify ""
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 321 2013-09-29 11:23:12 <nkuttler> with an account i get a "error: Error parsing JSON:minconf=1" though
 322 2013-09-29 11:23:18 <michagogo> nkuttler: just "1"
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 324 2013-09-29 11:23:23 <nkuttler> oh
 325 2013-09-29 11:23:24 <michagogo> (erm, no quotes)
 326 2013-09-29 11:23:35 <nkuttler> yay!
 327 2013-09-29 11:23:43 <sipa> you can specify "*" as account if you want all
 328 2013-09-29 11:23:48 <michagogo> Ah, you can?
 329 2013-09-29 11:24:03 <sipa> and you can use "" just fine to refer to the default account
 330 2013-09-29 11:24:03 <michagogo> nice
 331 2013-09-29 11:24:07 <michagogo> right
 332 2013-09-29 11:24:20 <michagogo> but receiving address labels count as accounts :-/
 333 2013-09-29 11:24:38 <michagogo> (though maybe less relevant in bitcoind?)
 334 2013-09-29 11:24:38 <sipa> yes they do
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 336 2013-09-29 11:25:20 <michagogo> I guess the question of whether or not it's relevant for bitcoind depends on whether or not you use the accounts feature
 337 2013-09-29 11:25:29 <sipa> well if you're using the gui, you're unlikely to use the accounts feature
 338 2013-09-29 11:25:35 <nkuttler> i certainly do
 339 2013-09-29 11:25:41 <sipa> but it's a weird half-finished abstraction
 340 2013-09-29 11:25:44 <nkuttler> i'm surprised -qt doesn't
 341 2013-09-29 11:26:04 <sipa> it was designed to maintain muktiple user accounts in one wallet
 342 2013-09-29 11:26:12 asuk has joined
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 344 2013-09-29 11:26:32 <nkuttler> i want to use it to group addresses
 345 2013-09-29 11:26:37 <sipa> what for?
 346 2013-09-29 11:26:52 <nkuttler> i thought for separate streams of coins
 347 2013-09-29 11:27:01 <nkuttler> so that addresses can't be cross-referenced
 348 2013-09-29 11:27:13 <sipa> accoubts have nothing to do with coins
 349 2013-09-29 11:27:20 <sipa> they are just balances
 350 2013-09-29 11:27:25 <sipa> that can even go negative
 351 2013-09-29 11:27:30 <nkuttler> sure
 352 2013-09-29 11:27:44 <sipa> they affect coin selection in no wa
 353 2013-09-29 11:27:46 <sipa> way
 354 2013-09-29 11:27:50 asuk has quit (afk!~asuk@31.129.27.89|Client Quit)
 355 2013-09-29 11:27:54 <sipa> coins do not belong to an account
 356 2013-09-29 11:28:15 <nkuttler> sendfrom <fromaccount> <tobitcoinaddress>
 357 2013-09-29 11:28:26 <michagogo> nkuttler: yeah, the accounts thing is fully internal
 358 2013-09-29 11:28:37 <sipa> yes what that does is construxt a transaction using any coins in your entire wallet
 359 2013-09-29 11:28:40 <michagogo> it doesn't segregate the addresses
 360 2013-09-29 11:28:45 <nkuttler> i see
 361 2013-09-29 11:28:47 <sipa> and then deduct that amount from the given account
 362 2013-09-29 11:28:53 <sipa> it does not do coin control
 363 2013-09-29 11:28:59 <nkuttler> aah
 364 2013-09-29 11:29:04 <nkuttler> ok, good to know
 365 2013-09-29 11:29:32 <sipa> you can do sendfrom even from an non-existing account
 366 2013-09-29 11:29:37 <sipa> and it will go negayive
 367 2013-09-29 11:30:01 <nkuttler> well, yeah, that makes the feature less useful
 368 2013-09-29 11:30:10 <nkuttler> (than i thought it was)
 369 2013-09-29 11:30:28 <sipa> what you really want is multiwallet, i guess
 370 2013-09-29 11:30:30 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 371 2013-09-29 11:31:41 zer0def has quit (Quit: Quit:)
 372 2013-09-29 11:32:05 <michagogo> How come the gitian process for win32 prebuilds all the deps separately and only does the bitcoin build itself, while linux uses packages for some, but where it doesn't use packages, it takes the source tarballs of the deps and builds said deps each time?
 373 2013-09-29 11:32:53 _ingsoc has joined
 374 2013-09-29 11:33:20 <sipa> because nobody did the effort of factoring those deps out
 375 2013-09-29 11:33:43 <sipa> at some point, for windows there were too many, slowing down the build process significantly
 376 2013-09-29 11:35:35 <michagogo> (also, how come boost and qt aren't included in the deps zip?)
 377 2013-09-29 11:35:48 <michagogo> (and now protobuf)
 378 2013-09-29 11:35:59 <sipa> no clue, historical i guess
 379 2013-09-29 11:36:18 <sipa> i think boost and qt were separated first, because they were so large on their own already
 380 2013-09-29 11:36:48 Nesetalis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 381 2013-09-29 11:36:56 Nesetalis has joined
 382 2013-09-29 11:37:12 <michagogo> Also, maybe I'm missing something...
 383 2013-09-29 11:37:34 <michagogo> But if the linux build uses ubuntu distro packages, how can it be relied upon to remain deterministic?
 384 2013-09-29 11:37:54 Namworld has joined
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 386 2013-09-29 11:40:24 zer0def has joined
 387 2013-09-29 11:40:30 <sipa> michagogo: well everyone has to use the same version of course
 388 2013-09-29 11:40:45 <michagogo> sipa: Sure, it'll update
 389 2013-09-29 11:40:53 <sipa> but the installed packages are binary identical
 390 2013-09-29 11:41:03 <sipa> as they are not built from source inside gitian
 391 2013-09-29 11:41:07 <michagogo> But what happens if, say, gavin tags a release
 392 2013-09-29 11:41:14 <michagogo> and then one person builds
 393 2013-09-29 11:41:25 <michagogo> and then a package updates, and then someone else builds
 394 2013-09-29 11:41:47 <michagogo> Not to mention, does Ubuntu do deterministic builds of its packages?
 395 2013-09-29 11:41:56 <sipa> not very relevant
 396 2013-09-29 11:42:07 <sipa> as they are installed as binaries
 397 2013-09-29 11:42:16 <sipa> and yes, package updates can affect things
 398 2013-09-29 11:42:30 <michagogo> But we don't know where those binaries are coming from
 399 2013-09-29 11:42:51 <sipa> well they come from ubuntu :)
 400 2013-09-29 11:42:56 <michagogo> Sure
 401 2013-09-29 11:42:57 <sipa> which you can verify
 402 2013-09-29 11:43:13 <sipa> presumably people trust the OS they are already running
 403 2013-09-29 11:43:34 <michagogo> What if someone runs, say, RHEL
 404 2013-09-29 11:43:41 <michagogo> and they don't trust ubuntu
 405 2013-09-29 11:43:43 <michagogo> ?
 406 2013-09-29 11:43:54 <sipa> then they have no reason to trust our releases
 407 2013-09-29 11:44:28 <michagogo> Right.
 408 2013-09-29 11:45:17 <sipa> even if we'd go as far as doing a gentoo or linux from scratch build env
 409 2013-09-29 11:45:30 <sipa> with the exact versions of packages we want
 410 2013-09-29 11:45:39 <sipa> conpiled deterministically entirely from scratch
 411 2013-09-29 11:45:47 <sipa> includig gcc and libc
 412 2013-09-29 11:45:59 <sipa> how will you trust the sources?
 413 2013-09-29 11:46:06 <michagogo> By reading them :-D
 414 2013-09-29 11:46:13 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 415 2013-09-29 11:46:14 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 416 2013-09-29 11:46:19 <sipa> right, true
 417 2013-09-29 11:46:26 <michagogo> That's kinda the point
 418 2013-09-29 11:46:53 <sipa> but what if there's an exploit in the gcc binary you are using
 419 2013-09-29 11:47:04 <sipa> which adds itself to any new gcc it builds
 420 2013-09-29 11:47:17 <michagogo> Well
 421 2013-09-29 11:47:30 <michagogo> What built gcc before gcc was around to build gcc?
 422 2013-09-29 11:47:37 <sipa> an earlier gcc
 423 2013-09-29 11:47:44 <michagogo> what built that gcc?
 424 2013-09-29 11:47:57 <sipa> at some point, another c conpiler was likely used
 425 2013-09-29 11:48:08 <michagogo> What built that compiler?
 426 2013-09-29 11:48:10 <sipa> but you cannot redo that entire process
 427 2013-09-29 11:48:29 <michagogo> In theory if you were super-paranoid you probably could, given enough time :-P
 428 2013-09-29 11:48:33 <michagogo> But I see your point.
 429 2013-09-29 11:48:41 <sipa> at some point, a perhaps minimal compiler in assembly
 430 2013-09-29 11:48:55 <sipa> yeah, i suppose you could
 431 2013-09-29 11:49:08 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 432 2013-09-29 11:49:15 <sipa> my point is that at some point you are always relying on the idea that a given binary does what it claims
 433 2013-09-29 11:49:38 <sipa> and you can push that trust back far
 434 2013-09-29 11:49:48 <sipa> really far if necessary
 435 2013-09-29 11:50:17 <sipa> but it sort-of becomes exponentially jarder
 436 2013-09-29 11:50:20 <sipa> *harder
 437 2013-09-29 11:50:22 <michagogo> Right
 438 2013-09-29 11:50:39 <sipa> i do like the idea of having an gentoo build env though :D
 439 2013-09-29 11:50:45 <michagogo> It's just that relying on Ubuntu's packages basically cuts off the point at which you can push the trust back
 440 2013-09-29 11:50:49 <sipa> but getting that to be deyerministic entirely...
 441 2013-09-29 11:50:50 <michagogo> Hmm?
 442 2013-09-29 11:51:03 <sipa> gentoo builds all packages from source upon compile
 443 2013-09-29 11:51:11 <sipa> eh, upon install
 444 2013-09-29 11:51:19 <michagogo> Erm, isn't that what compiling is?
 445 2013-09-29 11:51:21 <michagogo> Ah, interesting
 446 2013-09-29 11:51:39 <michagogo> Hmm, seems like that wouldn't work very well for slower computers
 447 2013-09-29 11:51:51 hnz has joined
 448 2013-09-29 11:51:59 <sipa> i remember people complaining that KDE took a week to install :p
 449 2013-09-29 11:52:07 <michagogo> [14:49:18] <sipa> but getting that to be deyerministic entirely...
 450 2013-09-29 11:52:07 <michagogo> Well, not everything needs to be deterministic
 451 2013-09-29 11:52:13 <michagogo> see: qt, boost
 452 2013-09-29 11:52:18 <sipa> right, only the final reault
 453 2013-09-29 11:52:21 <sipa> *result
 454 2013-09-29 11:52:41 <sipa> but tracking down sources of indeterminism may be hard
 455 2013-09-29 11:55:15 <sipa> anyway, would be a very interesting experiment imho
 456 2013-09-29 11:55:35 <sipa> create some minal set of packages, compile options, use flags
 457 2013-09-29 11:55:43 <sipa> then hardcoding the versions used
 458 2013-09-29 11:56:11 <sipa> and emerging exactly those to produce a VM image
 459 2013-09-29 11:56:58 <sipa> you likely don't need to hardcode every version, just compiler, binutils, and libraries the build depends on
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 465 2013-09-29 12:12:15 <Sleepers> hey guys
 466 2013-09-29 12:12:27 <Sleepers> is it ok to ask non-development questions?
 467 2013-09-29 12:13:15 agnostic98 has joined
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 469 2013-09-29 12:20:48 <sipa> just ask
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 473 2013-09-29 12:30:27 <Sleepers> is any way to buy BTC with sms?
 474 2013-09-29 12:30:43 <Sleepers> i know probably the carrier will get 50% of it, but for now it would be the easier way for me
 475 2013-09-29 12:31:05 <sipa> there may be, i've heard about suxh ibitiatives before
 476 2013-09-29 12:31:13 <sipa> maybe ask in #bitcoin or #bitcoin-otc
 477 2013-09-29 12:32:07 <Sleepers> tks ;)
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 494 2013-09-29 13:33:52 <nkuttler> heh. why does sendmany have a minconf parameter and sendtoaddress not?
 495 2013-09-29 13:35:56 <sipa> because sendmany extends sendfrom
 496 2013-09-29 13:36:05 <sipa> (and sendfrom extends sendtoaddress)
 497 2013-09-29 13:36:20 <sipa> the 'from' part used to check that sufficient balance was present in the from account
 498 2013-09-29 13:36:25 <nkuttler> ah, ty
 499 2013-09-29 13:36:27 <sipa> which needs a confirmation count
 500 2013-09-29 13:36:38 <sipa> this was removed a long time ago, so the minconf is a dummy in any case
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 510 2013-09-29 13:54:53 <nkuttler> sipa: i tought i could use the minconf parameter to send coins from an empty wallet with unconfirmed incoming transactions. that's wrong, right?
 511 2013-09-29 13:55:17 <nkuttler> i'm using the bitcoin-testnet-box fwiw
 512 2013-09-29 13:55:44 <michagogo> sipa: I'm trying to rebase 3028 (never done a rebase before)
 513 2013-09-29 13:55:53 <michagogo> I'm getting http://pastebin.com/mF0kWLuN
 514 2013-09-29 13:56:11 gritball has joined
 515 2013-09-29 13:56:17 <michagogo> I see git wants me to resolve a conflict. The problem is that I have no idea what it wants me to do :-/
 516 2013-09-29 13:56:45 <nkuttler> michagogo: see in doc/release-process.md for >>>> and <<<< markers
 517 2013-09-29 13:57:17 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 518 2013-09-29 13:57:19 <sipa> michagogo: fix the problem in doc/release-process.md, then git add that file, and do git rebase --continue
 519 2013-09-29 13:57:32 <michagogo> I'll try that.
 520 2013-09-29 13:57:55 <sipa> nkuttler: it won't ever let you spend unconfirmed coins, unless they are your own
 521 2013-09-29 13:58:10 <michagogo> Does it insert instructions for resolving the conflict into the file or something?
 522 2013-09-29 13:58:16 <nkuttler> sipa: ok, thanks again
 523 2013-09-29 13:58:50 <sipa> michagogo: no, you have to resolve them
 524 2013-09-29 13:59:05 <sipa> michagogo: the fact that it asks you, is because it's not smart enough to figure it our by its own
 525 2013-09-29 13:59:44 <michagogo> I know that -- I mean, how do I tell it how to resolve the issue?
 526 2013-09-29 13:59:56 <sipa> you resolve it
 527 2013-09-29 14:00:05 <sipa> you use git add to tell it that you've done so
 528 2013-09-29 14:00:42 <michagogo> I see "<<<<<<< HEAD", a few lines, "=======", a few more lines, and >>>>>>> Fix and improve release-process.md
 529 2013-09-29 14:00:57 <sipa> yes
 530 2013-09-29 14:01:07 enikanorov_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 531 2013-09-29 14:01:07 <sipa> they show the two conflicting changes
 532 2013-09-29 14:01:09 <michagogo> Is the conflict between "<<<<<<< HEAD".."=======" and "======="..">>>>>>> Fix and improve release-process.md"?
 533 2013-09-29 14:01:26 <sipa> there are two versions of the lines
 534 2013-09-29 14:01:33 <sipa> one is between <<<<< HEAD and ====
 535 2013-09-29 14:01:38 chmod755 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 536 2013-09-29 14:01:41 <sipa> the other is between ===== and >>>>>>
 537 2013-09-29 14:01:50 <michagogo> So I figure out how to merge those 2?
 538 2013-09-29 14:02:00 <sipa> you're supposed to replace it with a single piece that contains both changes
 539 2013-09-29 14:02:06 <michagogo> I see.
 540 2013-09-29 14:02:49 <sipa> (also remove the ==== and <<< and >>> lines themself)
 541 2013-09-29 14:03:03 <sipa> just turn it into the file as you think it's supposed to be after merging the changes
 542 2013-09-29 14:03:22 <michagogo> Okay, I think I got it
 543 2013-09-29 14:03:33 <michagogo> Actually, I'll also add one more commit, okay?
 544 2013-09-29 14:03:46 <sipa> do that after rebasing
 545 2013-09-29 14:03:50 <michagogo> yeah
 546 2013-09-29 14:04:12 <sipa> (you can actually do that during rebasing, making it appear somewhere in the middle of the other commits, but don't do that now)
 547 2013-09-29 14:06:39 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 550 2013-09-29 14:11:29 <michagogo> To https://github.com/Michagogo/bitcoin
 551 2013-09-29 14:11:29 <michagogo>  ! [rejected]        fix-dep-links -> fix-dep-links (non-fast-forward)
 552 2013-09-29 14:11:29 <michagogo> error: failed to push some refs to 'https://github.com/Michagogo/bitcoin'
 553 2013-09-29 14:11:59 <michagogo> hint: Updates were rejected because the tip of your current branch is behind its remote counterpart. Merge the remote changes (e.g. 'git pull') before pushing again.
 554 2013-09-29 14:11:59 <sipa> you need to push -f
 555 2013-09-29 14:12:06 <michagogo> Ah.
 556 2013-09-29 14:12:08 <sipa> as you're overwriting history
 557 2013-09-29 14:12:17 * michagogo hopes nobody has pulled his fork
 558 2013-09-29 14:12:52 <michagogo> Anyway, done
 559 2013-09-29 14:13:03 <michagogo> erm, 5 days ago? o_O
 560 2013-09-29 14:13:44 <sipa> ?
 561 2013-09-29 14:13:56 <michagogo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3028#commits-pushed-ae3f8b8
 562 2013-09-29 14:14:29 <sipa> authoring time != commit time
 563 2013-09-29 14:14:37 <sipa> rebasing doesn't change authoring time
 564 2013-09-29 14:14:41 <michagogo> Ah, I see
 565 2013-09-29 14:14:46 ForceMajeure_ has joined
 566 2013-09-29 14:14:53 <michagogo> But only one of the commits was from 5 days ago...
 567 2013-09-29 14:14:56 <michagogo> one was from just now
 568 2013-09-29 14:15:30 <sipa> that's just github being silly
 569 2013-09-29 14:15:36 <michagogo> k
 570 2013-09-29 14:15:47 Ferroh has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 571 2013-09-29 14:17:18 <michagogo> Also, I *think* I just signed 5e930fa when I committed it
 572 2013-09-29 14:17:26 ForceMajeure has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 573 2013-09-29 14:18:50 <sipa> did you use -S?
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 577 2013-09-29 14:24:18 <swulf--> how does one verify a signature in a transaction that was signed in an 'anyone can pay' fashion (i.e., other inputs not included in the sighash) .. I must be blindly missing some field in the raw txn that tells the signature verification to compute the sighash properly..?
 578 2013-09-29 14:24:35 <michagogo> sipa: yes
 579 2013-09-29 14:25:04 <sipa> swulf--: the signature itself has a flag byte appended
 580 2013-09-29 14:25:11 <sipa> which encodes the hash type
 581 2013-09-29 14:25:20 <swulf--> i thouhgt the sighash had the byte appended
 582 2013-09-29 14:25:23 <swulf--> not the signature itself
 583 2013-09-29 14:25:31 <sipa> both, actually
 584 2013-09-29 14:25:35 <swulf--> ah!
 585 2013-09-29 14:25:41 <sipa> though in the sighash it's expanded to a 4-byte integer
 586 2013-09-29 14:25:51 <swulf--> i must have missed the one at the end of the signature
 587 2013-09-29 14:25:58 jgarzik has joined
 588 2013-09-29 14:26:39 <swulf--> thanks:)
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 591 2013-09-29 14:28:56 <michagogo> Ah, found out how to check for signed commits
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 594 2013-09-29 14:29:38 <michagogo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6171394/
 595 2013-09-29 14:29:47 <michagogo> looks like it worked :-)
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 619 2013-09-29 15:24:21 <michagogo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3034
 620 2013-09-29 15:24:21 <michagogo> Erm, what?
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 622 2013-09-29 15:25:12 <sipa> what what?
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 624 2013-09-29 15:25:55 <michagogo> wait, what?
 625 2013-09-29 15:26:10 * michagogo never noticed there was a contrib/gitian-descriptors/readme
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 649 2013-09-29 16:04:23 <michagogo> ;;later tell devrandom Ping me when you get this -- looks like somehow that debian_frontend thing might be happening... I thought you fixed that?
 650 2013-09-29 16:04:23 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 652 2013-09-29 16:11:35 <shesek> why do people setup bots with ;;later instead of just using memoserv?
 653 2013-09-29 16:11:52 <michagogo> Anyone have a gitian setup up and running as of now?
 654 2013-09-29 16:12:44 <michagogo> (building with the autotools stuff, protobuf, etc)
 655 2013-09-29 16:13:00 <michagogo> I want to see if my builds are being deterministic
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 708 2013-09-29 17:10:08 <michagogo> Hmm
 709 2013-09-29 17:10:23 <michagogo> I'm getting an odd result from the gitian linux build
 710 2013-09-29 17:10:34 <michagogo> (odd compared to v0.8.5, that is)
 711 2013-09-29 17:11:11 <michagogo> build/out contains bitcoind, bitcoin-qt, test_bitcoind, test_bitcoin-qt, and a src folder with a tarball in it
 712 2013-09-29 17:11:19 <michagogo> What are test_*?
 713 2013-09-29 17:11:33 <michagogo> And, where are the separate 32 and 64 binaries?
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 715 2013-09-29 17:13:16 <sipa> michagogo: we may need to revise how to package things up
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 717 2013-09-29 17:13:27 <sipa> with autotools, a lot changed
 718 2013-09-29 17:13:28 <michagogo> o_O
 719 2013-09-29 17:13:40 <michagogo> So what's happening here, is the amd64 just clobbering the i386?
 720 2013-09-29 17:13:47 <sipa> perhaps, yes
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 722 2013-09-29 17:14:04 <sipa> those are wasy things to fix, don't worry
 723 2013-09-29 17:14:14 <sipa> can you verify already that they are deterministic?
 724 2013-09-29 17:14:28 <michagogo> build/out/bitcoind: ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, BuildID[sha1]=0x4a6314cd0822e431aae0adf351c5e3e8caa52066, stripped
 725 2013-09-29 17:14:32 <michagogo> build/out/bitcoin-qt: ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, BuildID[sha1]=0xd85a2c774e7732132465ba8d78fb4cb05d088913, stripped
 726 2013-09-29 17:14:43 <michagogo> sipa: I can if someone else can tell be what hashes they get :-)
 727 2013-09-29 17:14:50 <michagogo> tell me*
 728 2013-09-29 17:15:03 <sipa> michagogo: you can build them twice yourself :)
 729 2013-09-29 17:15:19 <sipa> also, the tarball should be deterministic as well
 730 2013-09-29 17:15:26 <swulf--> sipa: does the 'scriptCode' portion of the sighash change in anyonecanpay transactions .. I mean, is it different than in sighash_all, or is it still the scriptPubKey too?
 731 2013-09-29 17:16:31 <michagogo> sipa: ah, just run the gbuild again?
 732 2013-09-29 17:16:43 <sipa> michagogo: save the first output though :)
 733 2013-09-29 17:16:49 <michagogo> To really test that, though, I'd need to do it again tomorrow
 734 2013-09-29 17:16:54 <sipa> ok
 735 2013-09-29 17:17:02 <michagogo> wouldn't I?
 736 2013-09-29 17:17:11 <sipa> no hurry
 737 2013-09-29 17:17:36 <michagogo> (I remember when I first got started with gitian there was something that built the same way twice for me, but then the build the next day was different)
 738 2013-09-29 17:17:46 <michagogo> anyway, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6172059/
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 740 2013-09-29 17:18:39 <michagogo> bbl, food
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 744 2013-09-29 17:20:33 <swulf--> http://blockchain.info/tx/e218970e8f810be99d60aa66262a1d382bc4b1a26a69af07ac47d622885db1a7 are "anyonecanpay" signatures considered non-standard ?
 745 2013-09-29 17:22:08 <swulf--> Eligius is claiming this TX is invalid, even though... blockchain says it's OK and i certainly can't find anything wrong with the signature..
 746 2013-09-29 17:25:53 <swulf--> ERROR: Non-canonical signature: unknown hashtype byte
 747 2013-09-29 17:26:11 <swulf--> hrm
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 751 2013-09-29 17:28:19 <michagogo> swulf--: pastebin the raw tx?
 752 2013-09-29 17:28:42 <swulf--> michagogo: sure, one moment
 753 2013-09-29 17:30:57 <swulf--> micha: http://pastebin.com/bGYsFw8e
 754 2013-09-29 17:31:29 * michagogo plugs into decoderawtransaction
 755 2013-09-29 17:31:38 <michagogo> oh
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 757 2013-09-29 17:32:27 <sipa> it has hashtype 0x04
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 759 2013-09-29 17:32:39 <swulf--> yeah
 760 2013-09-29 17:32:45 <swulf--> that's anyonecanpay right?
 761 2013-09-29 17:32:59 <sipa> only 0x01, 0x02, 0x03, 0x81, 0x82, 0x83 are valid afaik
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 763 2013-09-29 17:33:19 <swulf--> hrm
 764 2013-09-29 17:33:36 <swulf--> how does one sign with anyonecanpay if the checker doesn't know what to hash to verify?
 765 2013-09-29 17:34:01 <michagogo> 2013-09-29 17:31:53 ERROR: Non-canonical signature: unknown hashtype byte
 766 2013-09-29 17:34:01 <michagogo> 2013-09-29 17:31:53 ERROR: CScriptCheck() : e218970e8f810be99d60aa66262a1d382bc4b1a26a69af07ac47d622885db1a7 VerifySignature failed
 767 2013-09-29 17:34:01 <michagogo> 2013-09-29 17:31:53 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : ConnectInputs failed e218970e8f810be99d60aa66262a1d382bc4b1a26a69af07ac47d622885db1a
 768 2013-09-29 17:34:32 <swulf--> yeah, its barfing on the hashtype byte
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 770 2013-09-29 17:34:44 <sipa> the checker sees the hashtype byte in the signature
 771 2013-09-29 17:34:55 <swulf-->     unsigned char nHashType = vchSig[vchSig.size() - 1] & (~(SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY));
 772 2013-09-29 17:34:55 <swulf-->     if (nHashType < SIGHASH_ALL || nHashType > SIGHASH_SINGLE)
 773 2013-09-29 17:34:55 <swulf-->         return error("Non-canonical signature: unknown hashtype byte");
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 775 2013-09-29 17:35:15 <swulf--> oh
 776 2013-09-29 17:35:18 <swulf--> durr
 777 2013-09-29 17:35:21 <sipa> you need either all, sigle or none
 778 2013-09-29 17:35:38 <swulf--> right
 779 2013-09-29 17:35:50 <swulf--> 0x80 is anyonecanpay
 780 2013-09-29 17:35:56 <swulf--> got it
 781 2013-09-29 17:36:00 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
 782 2013-09-29 17:36:14 <lianj> also why send it at all?
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 787 2013-09-29 17:41:13 <swulf--> michagogo: this one any better? http://pastebin.com/NCzjWMBJ
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 790 2013-09-29 17:44:06 <michagogo> swulf--: Looks like that tx was already in my mempool
 791 2013-09-29 17:44:10 <michagogo> So, yes,
 792 2013-09-29 17:44:12 <michagogo> yes.*
 793 2013-09-29 17:45:04 <swulf--> I still saw a non-standard input message, but not an error this time
 794 2013-09-29 17:45:40 <michagogo> Well
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 797 2013-09-29 17:45:52 <michagogo> It obviously passes IsStandard() if it was in my mempool
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 800 2013-09-29 17:48:02 <swulf--> hmm
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 807 2013-09-29 17:59:58 <swulf--> cool, confirmed
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 810 2013-09-29 18:02:21 <devrandom> michagogo: pushed fix
 811 2013-09-29 18:02:45 <devrandom> sudo behaves differently on lucid and precise
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 850 2013-09-29 18:58:56 <michagogo> sipa: Looks like the output is at least deterministic between two sequential runs -- just got a report matching http://paste.ubuntu.com/6172059/
 851 2013-09-29 18:59:07 <michagogo> BTW, what are the test_* executables?
 852 2013-09-29 18:59:12 <sipa> unit tests
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 864 2013-09-29 19:32:27 <cfields> michagogo: i'm working on some changes. i didn't realize that last PR would be pulled in as-is.
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 868 2013-09-29 19:33:08 <michagogo> which is the "last" pr?
 869 2013-09-29 19:33:36 <cfields> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3029
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 872 2013-09-29 19:35:30 <sipa> cfields: if you think a pullreq shouldn't be pulled as-is, feel free to comment :)
 873 2013-09-29 19:36:27 <cfields> sipa: no worries, it's not a problem. I just thought it was more of an rfc.
 874 2013-09-29 19:36:34 <cfields> my misunderstanding, not anyone else's problem :)
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 877 2013-09-29 19:37:05 <sipa> yeah, PRs are usually an easy way to give a patch some exposure
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 879 2013-09-29 19:37:56 <sipa> though if they're not intended for merging as-is, better put that in the message
 880 2013-09-29 19:38:09 <sipa> cfields: ok to PM?
 881 2013-09-29 19:38:19 <cfields> sipa: sure
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 904 2013-09-29 20:20:17 <warren> * Topic for #bitcoin-build is: Discussion of Bitcoin Build Improvements and helping users to better understand Gitian
 905 2013-09-29 20:21:30 <warren> cfields: 3029 was an incremental improvement that didn't break anything, further dep upgrades and elimination of wine for the deps*.zip are coming in separate PR's
 906 2013-09-29 20:22:11 <cfields> warren: no worries, it wasn't a complaint
 907 2013-09-29 20:22:47 <cfields> warren: i had several fixups to that PR i was working on. i'll just submit em on top of it
 908 2013-09-29 20:23:04 <warren> cfields: please do
 909 2013-09-29 20:23:19 <warren> cfields: and please join us in #bitcoin-build because we're working on other fixups
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 918 2013-09-29 20:30:55 <warren> * Topic for #bitcoin-build is: Discussion of Bitcoin Build Improvements and helping users to better understand Gitian | Gitian: https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder | IN PROGRESS: 1) Get rid of wine during deps*.zip 2) add all hardening flags 3) other cleanups 4) Research appropriate dep upgrades. 5) Linux to MacOS cross compile 6) Future Linux to old glibc build environment
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 955 2013-09-29 21:43:36 <maaku> i have an invalid transaction in my wallet
 956 2013-09-29 21:43:41 <maaku> is there any way to delete it?
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 968 2013-09-29 22:07:39 <jgarzik> maaku, define "any way"
 969 2013-09-29 22:07:48 <jgarzik> maaku, it's a BDB file, so you can always delete the BDB records
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 986 2013-09-29 22:32:21 <jgarzik> hum
 987 2013-09-29 22:33:03 <jgarzik> has anyone ever pondered an OP_LOCKTIME?   Basically (a) mining a transaction yet (b) preventing it from being spent before a certain [time | height].
 988 2013-09-29 22:33:32 <jgarzik> sometimes stateful ops have been pondered in the past
 989 2013-09-29 22:33:46 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I think petertodd brought up something like that a few months ago
 990 2013-09-29 22:34:42 <Luke-Jr> except as more of a special case than a specific op
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 993 2013-09-29 22:38:46 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: btw, I ended up using libevent in BFGMiner
 994 2013-09-29 22:38:47 <Luke-Jr> :p
 995 2013-09-29 22:39:05 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, cool
 996 2013-09-29 22:39:22 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, it's pretty handy.  just don't trust the add-on http server.
 997 2013-09-29 22:39:32 <jgarzik> the core is pretty rock solid
 998 2013-09-29 22:39:57 <Luke-Jr> I'm tempted to switch from libmicrohttpd to that - trying to remember if it had problems unrelated to longpolling
 999 2013-09-29 22:40:23 <Luke-Jr> since libmicrohttpd doesn't build for Win64, which I support as a platform
1000 2013-09-29 22:41:39 <jgarzik> I keep meaning to switch bitcoind over to multi-threaded asio for both RPC and network, speaking of I/O engines.  But it's so damn annoying to program.  Their multi-threaded, do-nothing http server example is over 1,000 lines.
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1005 2013-09-29 22:48:40 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it's also difficult to debug things that use it, and perhaps buggy itself.
1006 2013-09-29 22:50:47 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1007 2013-09-29 22:50:50 <sipa> jgarzik: what would OP_LOCKTIME do, apart from what nLockTime already does
1008 2013-09-29 22:50:53 <sipa> ?
1009 2013-09-29 22:51:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: restrict the transaction spending the output, rather than the one creating it
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1012 2013-09-29 22:54:41 <sipa> interesting
1013 2013-09-29 22:55:16 <sipa> though i guess, to guarantee the "once validz always valid" property it can only exclude things
1014 2013-09-29 22:55:45 <Luke-Jr> of course
1015 2013-09-29 22:55:45 <sipa> so it could be something that consumes a locktime, and then either does nothing or fails
1016 2013-09-29 22:56:00 <Luke-Jr> well, it needs to leave it on the stack too
1017 2013-09-29 22:56:27 <sipa> if you're talking about overriding an OP_NOP, yes
1018 2013-09-29 22:56:40 <sipa> but in general, that isn't necessary
1019 2013-09-29 22:57:34 <maaku> jgarzik: you mean an OP_BLOCK_HEIGHT that evaluates to the output's height, so you can do relational checks?
1020 2013-09-29 22:57:52 <sipa> relational checks on the height are very dangerous
1021 2013-09-29 22:58:04 <gmaxwell> No. He means checks on when it can be spent. Not the output itself.
1022 2013-09-29 22:58:35 <sipa> restricting to just above a certain height is something else
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1024 2013-09-29 22:58:57 <maaku> gmaxwell: yes, that's what i mean - put the check in the scriptPubKey
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1026 2013-09-29 22:59:46 <sipa> scripts shouldn't be able to observe the spendi g height, though
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1028 2013-09-29 23:00:51 <maaku> sipa: why?
1029 2013-09-29 23:01:14 <sipa> because that would allow you to create transactions that become invalid over time
1030 2013-09-29 23:01:39 <sipa> once valid, they should remain so, so reorganizations absentnan attack work
1031 2013-09-29 23:01:58 <sipa> and do not invalidate entire trees of transactions
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1033 2013-09-29 23:03:13 <sipa> but an operation that compares a stack element with the spending height, and fails the script if helow, that is doable
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1035 2013-09-29 23:03:53 * sipa zZzZ
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1040 2013-09-29 23:12:04 <gmaxwell> window 5
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1050 2013-09-29 23:22:47 <maaku> sipa: that is precisely the desired feature. we're using op_block_height as a way of synchronizing interdependent on- and off-chain transactions in freimarkets
1051 2013-09-29 23:23:21 <maaku> "invalidating entire trees of transactions" can happen anyway with a double-spend
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1054 2013-09-29 23:25:10 <maaku> the block_height checks in the scriptPubKey are a good way to avoid race conditions
1055 2013-09-29 23:26:15 <petertodd> sipa, jgarzik, maaku: I actually implemented an OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY to think through the issues involved
1056 2013-09-29 23:26:50 <maaku> petertodd: did you learn anything interesting?
1057 2013-09-29 23:27:36 <petertodd> Basically it's redefines OP_NOPx to take <nLockTime>, run it through the IsFinal() algorithm, and if the locktime isn't met, fail the transaction. The value is left on the stack of course to match OP_NOP semantics exactly. (soft-fork)
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1059 2013-09-29 23:28:24 <petertodd> maaku: IIRC not really - very straight-forward other than all the places I had to add nBlockHeight, nBlocktime arguments to functions like EvalScript()
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1061 2013-09-29 23:31:04 <petertodd> Satoshi was of the opinion that state-dependent tx's were dangerous, because they could make whole sets of tx's invalid in a re-org, but we've already got that problem with any-one-can-spend and known seckey outputs... a straight up OP_BLOCK_HEIGHT wouldn't be much of a change in principle. (although that's not directly possible to implement in a soft-fork)
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1064 2013-09-29 23:34:40 <gmaxwell> petertodd: also means you'd have to constantly reevaluate script validity in the mempool.. big mess.
1065 2013-09-29 23:36:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: supported IsStandard() forms of OP_BLOCK_HEIGHT using transactions can be designed to be easily handled in mempools, the rest, let someone else figure it out
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1070 2013-09-29 23:37:20 <gmaxwell> ugh. thats @#$#@ nasty. IsStandard shouldn't pollute blockchain logic.
1071 2013-09-29 23:38:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Huh? If you want to accept such a tx to your mempool, figure out how to handle that rationally. Otherwise if you see it in the blockchain, just evaluate it accroding to the rules.
1072 2013-09-29 23:38:40 <petertodd> In the event of a re-org we already don't re-accept anything non-standard into the mempool FWIW.
1073 2013-09-29 23:44:12 <maaku> gmaxwell: the mempool problem is pretty straightforward: just drop transactions that fail the last couple of times you evaluate them for inclusion
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1075 2013-09-29 23:45:12 <petertodd> maaku: you'll wind up creating DoS attacks with invalid transactions - only sane way to do that is to make broadcasting the transaction expensive, which P2Pool does for you actually because you can include tx's in shares
1076 2013-09-29 23:46:22 <maaku> petertodd: the transaction has to be valid when it goes into the mempool
1077 2013-09-29 23:47:08 <petertodd> maaku: if it becomes invalid later the time when it can be mined is proportionally reduced, hence you haven't paid fairly for the cost of bandwidth associated with it
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