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 222 2013-09-30 06:31:21 <TBZ1> I come across programming/script bounties about once a day on bitcointalk. if anyone wants links compiled now or later, please PM me
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 377 2013-09-30 10:10:31 <swulf--> i'm working on getting bitcoin built using msvc 2010
 378 2013-09-30 10:10:39 <swulf--> seems to be going ok so far
 379 2013-09-30 10:15:44 <swulf--> bitcoind had a few runtime exceptions in the msvc stl
 380 2013-09-30 10:19:54 <swulf--> can anyone spare some testnet coins?
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 402 2013-09-30 11:19:44 <t7> testnet faucet ?
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 407 2013-09-30 11:33:17 <yrashk> swulf--: tpfaucet.appspot.com
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 452 2013-09-30 12:58:16 <TD> sipa: is the "s < order/2" rule going to be enforced at some point? i assume this is the case for the anti-malleability work
 453 2013-09-30 12:59:25 <sipa> TD: i was planning on writing a BIP about it at some point, together with some other rules to kill mallebaility, and see how people like it
 454 2013-09-30 12:59:31 <TD> please do
 455 2013-09-30 12:59:32 <sipa> so if it were up to me, yes
 456 2013-09-30 12:59:42 <TD> i can implement the same rule in bitcoinj
 457 2013-09-30 13:00:05 Tanja178 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 458 2013-09-30 13:01:19 <sipa> another rule would be what is implemented in #3025
 459 2013-09-30 13:02:18 <sipa> but the last one is probably the hardest one: sigscripts must be push-only, and when evaluating a scriptpubkey, only a single non-zero value may remain on the stack
 460 2013-09-30 13:02:54 <sipa> maybe there are even scripts in use already that fail this
 461 2013-09-30 13:02:55 <TD> well, it's maybe a suitable fix for tx versions 1
 462 2013-09-30 13:03:18 <TD> for a hard fork, v2 could contain the number of elements in each scriptSig field as part of the CTxIn structure, covered by the sighash
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 467 2013-09-30 13:14:52 <CodeShark> IMHO the signatures should be stored in a separate structure from the input script
 468 2013-09-30 13:15:46 <CodeShark> and the signing operations should probably be treated separately from the other logical operations in the script
 469 2013-09-30 13:16:25 Thepok has joined
 470 2013-09-30 13:17:07 <CodeShark> OP_CHECKSIG is at a completely different level of abstraction than say, OP_EQUAL
 471 2013-09-30 13:17:18 <swulf--> code: i'd like to see something like that, too..
 472 2013-09-30 13:17:24 chrisco has joined
 473 2013-09-30 13:17:42 <swulf--> codeshark: basically, separating 'who can pay' versus 'how/whether or not (those) can pay?'
 474 2013-09-30 13:17:45 chrisco has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 475 2013-09-30 13:17:45 <swulf--> ?
 476 2013-09-30 13:17:51 <swulf--> s/pay/spend
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 480 2013-09-30 13:19:01 <CodeShark> swulf: yeah, sorta I guess
 481 2013-09-30 13:19:52 superman2016 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 482 2013-09-30 13:20:17 <CodeShark> also, I find it extremely annoying that bitcoin addresses correspond to a particular format of a hash of a public key for a particular type of script
 483 2013-09-30 13:20:27 <CodeShark> addresses should correspond to output scripts
 484 2013-09-30 13:20:39 <CodeShark> for full generality
 485 2013-09-30 13:21:43 <swulf--> right, for full generality it's very hard to tell who the intended recipient of the coins are supposed to be
 486 2013-09-30 13:22:49 <CodeShark> swulf: indeed - right now implementations resort to hideous hackery, basically having a separate case for each type of transaction
 487 2013-09-30 13:22:56 <swulf--> yup
 488 2013-09-30 13:23:02 <swulf--> that's how i've had to unfortunately code up mine
 489 2013-09-30 13:23:27 <CodeShark> at the cost of four extra bytes per address, we could represent a pay-to-bitcoin-address output in its entirety
 490 2013-09-30 13:23:43 <CodeShark> and we could even get rid of the "version" number and get one back
 491 2013-09-30 13:23:58 <CodeShark> so three more bytes than now
 492 2013-09-30 13:24:24 <CodeShark> and "pay-to-script-hash" outputs are a tiny bit shorter :)
 493 2013-09-30 13:25:08 <swulf--> I'm afk for a few:)
 494 2013-09-30 13:25:30 <sipa> CodeShark: or if we switch to p2sh-only, things become even easier
 495 2013-09-30 13:25:36 <sipa> 20 bytes for any address
 496 2013-09-30 13:25:56 <CodeShark> sipa: yeah, I guess that would provide full generality
 497 2013-09-30 13:26:01 <sipa> and wallets need hackery anyway
 498 2013-09-30 13:26:06 <sipa> but that is not a problem
 499 2013-09-30 13:26:13 <sipa> as they generate their own addresses
 500 2013-09-30 13:26:19 <sipa> so they know what they need to support
 501 2013-09-30 13:27:09 <CodeShark> right - but since the payment protocol deals with output scripts, not addresses, I think addresses will eventually die (at least I hope so)
 502 2013-09-30 13:28:21 <sipa> i hope so, but i doubt it
 503 2013-09-30 13:29:18 <CodeShark> it's weird that someone would come up with this fairly general scripting language only to label special cases of outputs by special datatypes they contain
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 506 2013-09-30 13:30:32 <CodeShark> I mean, I could understand if it afforded substantial compression ratios
 507 2013-09-30 13:30:34 <sipa> pay-to-pubkeyhash addresses were only added later, to deal with the special case where you couldn't reach the receiver directly (pay-to-IP, which negotiated the script on the fly), but you did have a hash of a key :)
 508 2013-09-30 13:30:50 <sipa> they weren't intended to become the only way at all
 509 2013-09-30 13:31:18 <CodeShark> sipa: even then, we're talking removing four out of 24 bytes at the cost of full generality
 510 2013-09-30 13:31:58 <CodeShark> and this is only for the UI
 511 2013-09-30 13:32:04 <CodeShark> it has no effect on the block chain itself
 512 2013-09-30 13:32:45 <CodeShark> actually, right now it's for the UI - in the future it will be handled by a protocol layer that sits below the UI
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 514 2013-09-30 13:34:14 <CodeShark> so we're talking another what…two base58 characters at most?
 515 2013-09-30 13:34:30 <CodeShark> three
 516 2013-09-30 13:34:46 <sipa> meh, humans shouldn't see addresses anyway :)
 517 2013-09-30 13:35:06 <edcba> ??
 518 2013-09-30 13:35:27 <CodeShark> right, but given the primitive nature of the first bitcoin client UIs, they needed a representation for a redeemable script
 519 2013-09-30 13:35:40 <edcba> how do you give a return address to a website ?
 520 2013-09-30 13:35:54 <sipa> edcba: the protocol your client talks with the receiver should deal with that
 521 2013-09-30 13:36:25 <edcba> http ?
 522 2013-09-30 13:36:37 <sipa> whatever protocol
 523 2013-09-30 13:36:57 <sipa> (the payment protocol being developed uses https)
 524 2013-09-30 13:36:58 <CodeShark> http is really a transport layer here :)
 525 2013-09-30 13:37:16 <edcba> maybe i missed a part of conversation
 526 2013-09-30 13:37:42 <sipa> edcba: you know what the payment protocol does?
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 530 2013-09-30 13:44:14 <CodeShark> 6 more base58 chars to represent a full pay-to-pubkey-hash output. It's a few, but I don't think it would matter - as if the current addresses are particularly easy to memorize :p
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 532 2013-09-30 13:45:03 <CodeShark> 5 more if we get rid of the version byte
 533 2013-09-30 13:46:20 <CodeShark> we could also use only a portion of the MD160 for "minihashes" - especially for smaller transactions
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 535 2013-09-30 13:47:13 <CodeShark> the number of bytes used from the hash - or the hash function - could be parametrized into a human-readable representation
 536 2013-09-30 13:47:32 dbarrett has joined
 537 2013-09-30 13:48:34 <CodeShark> and if we separated the signatures from the script altogether and replaced OP_CHECKSIG we get rid of another byte :)
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 540 2013-09-30 13:50:40 <CodeShark> also, I propose getting rid of the terms "scriptsig" and scriptpubkey" since they are only strictly accurate for pay-to-pubkey transactions
 541 2013-09-30 13:50:56 <CodeShark> txinscript and txoutscript or simply input script and output script are better :)
 542 2013-09-30 13:52:17 <CodeShark> or if we want a more semantic rather than syntactic naming, something like claim script and payment script
 543 2013-09-30 13:52:41 <sipa> they are the bitcoin-pubkey and bitcoin-signature :)
 544 2013-09-30 13:53:02 <sipa> you can see bitcoin's scripting system as an (advanced) public key system on top of ECDSA
 545 2013-09-30 13:53:12 <sipa> though i assume the terminology is actually historical
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 549 2013-09-30 13:55:28 <CodeShark> for standard pay-to-pubkey transactions, the two correspond exactly (except for the ugly, unnecessary OP_CHECKSIG)
 550 2013-09-30 13:57:05 <CodeShark> for most of today's transactions, both the signatures AND the public keys are stored in inputs
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 552 2013-09-30 13:57:30 <CodeShark> and the outputs contain hashes
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 555 2013-09-30 13:58:39 <CodeShark> and yes, it could be thought of as a "higher level pubkey system" - but these original terms are apt to cause confusion
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 560 2013-09-30 14:00:48 <CodeShark> fwiw I'm no longer using them internally for variable naming :)
 561 2013-09-30 14:00:58 <CodeShark> or have been moving away from doing so
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 567 2013-09-30 14:07:48 <lmatteis> hell
 568 2013-09-30 14:07:51 <lmatteis> *hello
 569 2013-09-30 14:08:02 <lmatteis> what's a good book for understanding how bitcoin works under the hoods
 570 2013-09-30 14:08:05 <lmatteis> (i'm a developer)
 571 2013-09-30 14:08:12 <lmatteis> about the block chain and all those concepts
 572 2013-09-30 14:10:27 <CodeShark> I can recommend two sources as must-reads for any developer looking to get under the hood: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
 573 2013-09-30 14:11:21 <CodeShark> and the third source would be the source code of an implementation
 574 2013-09-30 14:11:28 mknippen has joined
 575 2013-09-30 14:11:34 <CodeShark> so https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
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 600 2013-09-30 15:07:54 <lmatteis> CodeShark: thanks
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 603 2013-09-30 15:08:50 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|what is the max number of maxconnections the client can be set to?
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 608 2013-09-30 15:16:16 <sipa> Neozonz|disc: 1000 or so
 609 2013-09-30 15:16:27 <sipa> depends on the OS, though
 610 2013-09-30 15:18:22 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|ah ok
 611 2013-09-30 15:18:51 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|for p2pool would it make sense to increase max connections so it can communicate with more pool nodes?
 612 2013-09-30 15:20:50 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 613 2013-09-30 15:21:04 <forrestv> Neozonz|disc, p2pool makes its own p2p connections. its default is usually fine, but more can help
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 615 2013-09-30 15:21:32 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|any good numbers to go about tweaking?
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 617 2013-09-30 15:21:52 <sipa> Neozonz|disc: more nodes also means more relaying, so more bandwidth and latency
 618 2013-09-30 15:22:27 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|I've got p2pool set at 1000, and bitcoind set at 125
 619 2013-09-30 15:22:29 <CodeShark> which nodes you connect to is far more important than how many
 620 2013-09-30 15:22:47 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|I've custom added local nodes as well
 621 2013-09-30 15:23:00 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|just trying to bring down DOAs and stales
 622 2013-09-30 15:23:02 <CodeShark> but you should connect to at least a few that are unlikely to be in collusion against you
 623 2013-09-30 15:23:11 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|collusion against me?
 624 2013-09-30 15:23:21 <CodeShark> well, speaking generally here
 625 2013-09-30 15:23:24 <CodeShark> not specifically about bitcoind
 626 2013-09-30 15:23:42 <CodeShark> collusion against you - as in deliberate withholding of messages
 627 2013-09-30 15:23:53 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|ah
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 629 2013-09-30 15:24:10 <forrestv> Neozonz|disc, 1000 for p2pool is crazy and will use a ton of bandwidth .. something like a TB per month if you actually managed to find that many peers q:
 630 2013-09-30 15:24:54 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|would it not be limited to 125 via bitcoind?
 631 2013-09-30 15:25:06 <forrestv> no, p2pool peers are not the same as bitcoin peers
 632 2013-09-30 15:25:09 <sipa> p2pool connections are independent from bitcoin connections
 633 2013-09-30 15:25:12 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|ah
 634 2013-09-30 15:25:24 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|interesting
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 637 2013-09-30 15:27:23 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|how come even when I've set p2pool to 1000, I'm only seeing  6/1 peers
 638 2013-09-30 15:27:50 <sipa> finding peers is hard
 639 2013-09-30 15:28:00 <sipa> or rather, having others find you is hard
 640 2013-09-30 15:28:49 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|anyway to manually add p2pool nodes?
 641 2013-09-30 15:29:24 <Neozonz> disc!cdd2df82@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.205.210.223.130|I've manually added bitcoind nodes, but anyway to manually add p2pool nodes? (since the connections are separate)
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 645 2013-09-30 15:36:22 <michagogo> I think you can start with -n or something like that
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 673 2013-09-30 16:20:49 <maaku> CodeShark: i've been using scriptContract for scriptPubKey, and scriptEndorsement for scriptSig in my code
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 690 2013-09-30 16:42:27 <hobbes1981-00> Hello
 691 2013-09-30 16:42:39 <hobbes1981-00> Does anyone here have experience calculating midstate?
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 694 2013-09-30 16:43:37 <Luke-Jr> hobbes1981-00: ?
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 697 2013-09-30 16:44:53 <MC1984> hello again
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 701 2013-09-30 16:49:26 <hobbes1981-00> In python I do this: 1) take the first 64 bytes of data 2) byteswap each 32 bit chunk 3) run decode('hex') to convert to raw bytes 4) run it through hashlib.sha256.hexdigest()
 702 2013-09-30 16:49:47 <hobbes1981-00> That SHOULD work right? But it doesn't match up with the midstate returned from getwork
 703 2013-09-30 16:49:51 <hobbes1981-00> I don't know what I'm doing wrong....
 704 2013-09-30 16:49:51 <Luke-Jr> nope
 705 2013-09-30 16:50:07 <Luke-Jr> it's not even possible to do it with hashlib
 706 2013-09-30 16:50:27 <hobbes1981-00> Oh its not?
 707 2013-09-30 16:50:35 <Luke-Jr> hashlib does the finalisation step
 708 2013-09-30 16:50:49 <Luke-Jr> that's why there's a dedicated midstate C module
 709 2013-09-30 16:51:05 <Luke-Jr> http://gitorious.org/midstate/midstate
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 712 2013-09-30 16:53:16 <hobbes1981-00> Ok, and once I calculate midstate using that C module I could use hashlib for the other step?
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 714 2013-09-30 16:53:35 <Luke-Jr> no?
 715 2013-09-30 16:53:42 <Luke-Jr> what are you trying to do? O.o
 716 2013-09-30 16:53:57 <Luke-Jr> the "other step" is done by dedicated hardware
 717 2013-09-30 16:56:10 <hobbes1981-00> I'm just trying to write a simple hashing program. By "the other step" I mean setting the nonce and combining the second half of data with the midstate to run the 2nd hash and see if its lower than the target
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 719 2013-09-30 16:58:53 <Luke-Jr> hobbes1981-00: abandon Python then :p
 720 2013-09-30 16:59:00 <Luke-Jr> hobbes1981-00: libblkmaker has an example
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 743 2013-09-30 17:35:10 <helo> has anyone examined web payments, and their relation to the payment protocol i.e. http://www.w3.org/community/webpayments/
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 785 2013-09-30 18:33:11 <midnightmagic> helo: web payments are IMO incompatible with normal bitcoin, as they seem to require an issuing authority that *other* people also accept, and they have a whole payment processing process which is either irrelevant in bitcoin, or useless in bitcoin, except if you want to interface with someone who doesn't have or want bitcoins.
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 787 2013-09-30 18:34:17 <midnightmagic> so, bitpay I bet could act as a payment authority, if other people agreed to trust they'd honour their payments and there was some way to *receive* payments from them. so, they have accounts with them or something like that.
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 803 2013-09-30 19:01:22 <helo> midnightmagic: yeah, they seem to be different worlds :/
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 805 2013-09-30 19:04:49 <midnightmagic> helo: p2p transfer of bitcoin is so trivial anyway, why bother including it in the browser? just do a link to whatever the bitcoin software running on the computer is.
 806 2013-09-30 19:07:32 <helo> a locally running bitcoind/qt could maybe be viewed as the authority?
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 815 2013-09-30 19:16:04 <helo> why would my node be getting dozens of 'ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : inputs already spent' per second from a single node every now and then?
 816 2013-09-30 19:16:42 <gmaxwell> because it's feeding you transactions that you're rejecting because they're double spends.
 817 2013-09-30 19:17:21 <helo> well yeah, of course... is there some normal state of bitcoind that would cause it to do this?
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 819 2013-09-30 19:19:53 <swulf--> well, I'll be damned: I've got a working Bitcoin-Qt built with MSVC 2010
 820 2013-09-30 19:20:12 <swulf--> took all day.. is this something that would be useful if I cleaned up and released the changes?
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 822 2013-09-30 19:21:55 <gmaxwell> swulf--: it depends.
 823 2013-09-30 19:22:00 <swulf--> the new splash logo is nice
 824 2013-09-30 19:22:47 <gmaxwell> swulf--: if the changes are fixes that are arguably wrong even in a universe where MSVC doesn't exist, great! if they're changes to add braindamage to appease it, thats less useful.
 825 2013-09-30 19:23:03 <swulf--> the code changes are relatively minor
 826 2013-09-30 19:23:22 <gmaxwell> swulf--: post patches?
 827 2013-09-30 19:23:33 <swulf--> It's more a matter of putting together the build and getting 3rd party libraries built and linked properly
 828 2013-09-30 19:23:58 <swulf--> gmaxwell: the most notorious change is indexing into vectors passed the end of the array
 829 2013-09-30 19:24:12 <swulf--> lots of code like "&vch[vch.size()]" throws MSVC errors
 830 2013-09-30 19:25:40 <swulf--> gmaxwell: but I've put together a small set of CMake files, which is probably going to be the part most of the devs don't want in the archive.  Worst case, I can just maintain a fork...
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 838 2013-09-30 19:37:28 <maaku> swulf--: we just moved to autotools
 839 2013-09-30 19:37:35 <swulf--> maaku: Yeah, I'm aware
 840 2013-09-30 19:37:44 <maaku> i'm not sure there'd be much support for a move to cmake
 841 2013-09-30 19:37:55 <swulf--> maaku: these cmake files wouldn't work on *nix/osx
 842 2013-09-30 19:38:14 <swulf--> in my mind, the cmake files would be for msvc-only builds
 843 2013-09-30 19:38:15 <maaku> but a pull request with the msvc stuff would be appreciated by others, i'm sure
 844 2013-09-30 19:38:21 <maaku> even if it never makes it in
 845 2013-09-30 19:39:11 <swulf--> I still have to clean up the build, make sure the translations work, build tests.. so there's still more more work to do
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 849 2013-09-30 19:43:31 <gmaxwell> swulf--: In general I'm not sure that we want to do anything that potentially creates review workload for supporting a compiler we aren't going to test and support. Though the code cleanup is useful.
 850 2013-09-30 19:46:02 <swulf--> Sure, makes sense
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 873 2013-09-30 20:31:36 <helo> can MSVC do deterministic builds?
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 875 2013-09-30 20:32:32 <helo> i would think MS's code/library signing fetish could be helpful for such a thing
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 884 2013-09-30 20:39:52 <Eneerge> that was weird
 885 2013-09-30 20:39:59 <Eneerge> it said i couldnt change nick because banned in #bitcoin-dev
 886 2013-09-30 20:40:00 <Eneerge> i part
 887 2013-09-30 20:40:02 <Eneerge> change nick
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 967 2013-09-30 22:53:38 <maaku> Eneerge: it's not just you
 968 2013-09-30 22:53:59 <maaku> bitcoin-dev has some silly registered nick setting that prevents you from doing that
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 980 2013-09-30 23:10:18 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: OH YOU SNEAKY MANMUFFIN
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 982 2013-09-30 23:12:40 <sipa> ...?
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 987 2013-09-30 23:18:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: I edited one of his posts on the forum. (he tongue in cheek trolled me calling me fat, I changed it so his post said "my mommas fat")
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 991 2013-09-30 23:21:05 <midnightmagic> i thought the momma reference was odd..
 992 2013-09-30 23:21:42 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
 993 2013-09-30 23:23:00 <MC1984> got to keep a sens eof humour about it
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 995 2013-09-30 23:25:18 <MC1984> I just put 0.8.5 on my bitcoin usb stick and it fails with "the runtime requested termination in an unusual manner" or some such
 996 2013-09-30 23:25:21 <MC1984> is that a known thing
 997 2013-09-30 23:25:37 <MC1984> i have -datadir as the usb stick obv
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1013 2013-09-30 23:39:06 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, iirc there is something that's linked dynamic in 0.8.5 that was static previously
1014 2013-09-30 23:41:33 <MC1984> might that mean it would fail with a datadir from a previous version or something
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1016 2013-09-30 23:42:03 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, i dont think so
1017 2013-09-30 23:42:12 <phantomcircuit> just possibly additional weirdness
1018 2013-09-30 23:42:18 <phantomcircuit> (also i could be totally wrong)
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1020 2013-09-30 23:42:38 <MC1984> i could delete and start again but feh
1021 2013-09-30 23:42:53 <MC1984> nobody like syncing dat chain
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1029 2013-09-30 23:52:00 <sneak> hi
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