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17 2013-10-05 00:20:20 <soixante_> Bitstamp PHP API released - https://github.com/willmoss/bitstamp-php-api
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34 2013-10-05 00:35:53 <BCB> where is the time stamp in a raw transaction
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79 2013-10-05 01:14:23 <BCB> radio check
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82 2013-10-05 01:15:48 <gavinandresen> BCB transactions do not have timestamps
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87 2013-10-05 01:17:00 <BCB> gavinandresen, thx. Were do I get the transaction time
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89 2013-10-05 01:17:42 <gavinandresen> BCB: that depends on what you need the time for⦠you either record the time when your node first saw it, or you take the block timestamp of when it was first included in a block in the best chain.
90 2013-10-05 01:18:38 <gavinandresen> BCB : or, actually, if you generated the transaction yourself then you record the time when you created it.
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92 2013-10-05 01:19:00 <BCB> I've run my node with index=1 and am parsing the blockchain with the rawtransaction api
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94 2013-10-05 01:19:20 <BCB> so I'm looking for transactions that are not my own
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97 2013-10-05 01:20:11 <gavinandresen> Then the only timestamps that are stored are block timestamps. So best you can do is "all txns in this block get assigned the block's timestamp"
98 2013-10-05 01:20:44 <gavinandresen> ⦠and the most you can assume is that the transaction was generated before that timestamp, plus or minus a couple hours of slop (because block timestamps are sloppy)
99 2013-10-05 01:20:46 <BCB> thx
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101 2013-10-05 01:21:32 <BCB> gavinandresen, so when I see a transaction time stamp on blockchain info it is from the block?
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103 2013-10-05 01:21:56 <gavinandresen> blockchain.info probably records when they first see the transaction broadcast.
104 2013-10-05 01:22:11 <gavinandresen> ⦠and if they first see the transaction as part of a block, they probably use the block timestamp
105 2013-10-05 01:23:14 <BCB> gavinandresen, is there an api call to get the block time stamp
106 2013-10-05 01:23:46 <gavinandresen> sure, getblock
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109 2013-10-05 01:26:35 <BCB> is that block indicated in the rawtransaction?
110 2013-10-05 01:27:08 <gavinandresen> BCB: no, transactions don't know what block they're in. You have to go the other way: blocks have lists of transactions...
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112 2013-10-05 01:29:00 <gavinandresen> How do you get the transaction ids to look up in the first place if not from the blocks?
113 2013-10-05 01:29:33 <BCB> gavinandresen, blockchain.info
114 2013-10-05 01:29:42 <BCB> gavinandresen, I haven't gottent that far yet
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116 2013-10-05 01:30:09 <gavinandresen> mmm. I may be mis-remembering, and it is possible index=1 adds block hashes to getrawtransaction output.
117 2013-10-05 01:30:17 <gavinandresen> (or block height)
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123 2013-10-05 01:34:05 <BCB> gavinandresen, I don't see it
124 2013-10-05 01:34:44 <BCB> gavinandresen, scriptSig [asm] and [hex]
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129 2013-10-05 01:36:38 <gavinandresen> BCB: I did misremember, getrawtransaction <txid> 1 --> gives me "blockhash"
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131 2013-10-05 01:37:04 <gavinandresen> ⦠with txindex=1
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136 2013-10-05 01:38:26 <BCB> gavinandresen, nice. thx. Is that in the dox?
137 2013-10-05 01:39:29 <gavinandresen> BCB: I dunno. The Wiki is the dox, so if it is not, feel free to fix.
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140 2013-10-05 01:39:51 <BCB> ok thx
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149 2013-10-05 01:45:56 <BCB> gavinandresen, is there also a way to index the individual addresses?
150 2013-10-05 01:46:32 <gavinandresen> BCB: sipa has a pull request that adds that
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157 2013-10-05 01:50:54 <BCB> gavinandresen, what is the sequence number in the getrawtransaction output
158 2013-10-05 01:52:31 <phantomcircuit> BCB, the sequence number of course
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161 2013-10-05 01:52:52 <BCB> phantomcircuit, they are all the same
162 2013-10-05 01:53:00 <BCB> sequence of what?
163 2013-10-05 01:53:05 <phantomcircuit> BCB, http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2025/what-is-txins-sequence
164 2013-10-05 01:53:05 <BCB> order of the blocks
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166 2013-10-05 01:53:56 <gavinandresen> BCB: what phantomcircuit said. bitcoin.stackexchange.com is excellent for that kind of question.
167 2013-10-05 01:54:17 <BCB> phantomcircuit, gavinandresen thx
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218 2013-10-05 02:45:55 <cortexA9> hello
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227 2013-10-05 02:52:15 <cortexA9> hello
228 2013-10-05 02:52:33 <cortexA9> is it possible to make an android app to earn and generate bitcoins in base at uptime ?
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237 2013-10-05 03:02:32 <orion> Hi. I am trying to compile bitcoin-qt (15b48ab03) on FreeBSD-CURRENT with clang and I am getting a bunch of compile time errors: http://pastebin.com/Ea01PYQH
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461 2013-10-05 07:57:59 <swulf--> by the end of the call to Shutdown(), there is only 1 thread running, correct?
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502 2013-10-05 09:29:48 <mrkent> should bitcoind be installed on a different server or same server?
503 2013-10-05 09:30:04 <mrkent> as web app
504 2013-10-05 09:41:12 <jouke> yes
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549 2013-10-05 11:02:45 <mrkent> jouke, yes to diff server or same?
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576 2013-10-05 11:58:55 <orion> Is anyone awake? I am having difficulty compiling bitcoin-qt from git on FreeBSD-CURRENT with clang 3.3.
577 2013-10-05 11:59:05 marhs has quit (Quit: Page closed)
578 2013-10-05 11:59:31 <jgarzik> orion, want to pastebin the error and preceding text?
579 2013-10-05 11:59:41 <_dr> orion: are you using a port?
580 2013-10-05 11:59:51 <jgarzik> orion, first step is ./autogen.sh
581 2013-10-05 11:59:59 <_dr> http://www.freshports.org/net-p2p/bitcoin/
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583 2013-10-05 12:01:18 <orion> No, I am not using a port.
584 2013-10-05 12:01:26 <orion> I am compiling by hand from the lastest commit in master.
585 2013-10-05 12:02:38 <_dr> Easiest would be to use the port. If you're paranoid you can build it yourself and look at the patches/options the port uses
586 2013-10-05 12:03:06 jakov has joined
587 2013-10-05 12:03:08 <orion> The port is behind.
588 2013-10-05 12:03:30 <_dr> 0.8.5?
589 2013-10-05 12:03:50 the_2nd has joined
590 2013-10-05 12:04:36 <orion> Ok, that may not be true.
591 2013-10-05 12:04:41 <orion> http://pastebin.com/pLUiDkbL <-- that's the error I get.
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597 2013-10-05 12:15:34 <orion> I suppose I am not going to get any sympathy from the developers. :p
598 2013-10-05 12:15:49 s7r has joined
599 2013-10-05 12:16:53 <orion> Actually, the FreeBSD port failed to build too (!).
600 2013-10-05 12:17:47 <orion> s/too/either
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753 2013-10-05 16:28:54 <tiyoT> hi
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756 2013-10-05 16:30:16 <tiyoT> im looking for backend&frontend programmers for personal project of blockchain-based forum (bitmessage meets bitcointalk with a splash of twitter) ~msg me for more info~
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767 2013-10-05 16:55:52 <railed> if I said something earlier when I was unregistered, nobody would have seen it, correct?
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769 2013-10-05 16:57:17 <c0rw1n> yes
770 2013-10-05 16:57:48 <railed> k, just didn't want to spam the channel with the same thing twice
771 2013-10-05 16:58:09 <railed> I added an API command "calculatefees" which lets you preview what the fees will be for sending a certain amount (so you can deduct them from the amount you send to somebody, vs. paying them yourself). Is that something I should submit a pull request for, or is there a good reason that (AFAIK) nothing like that existed already?
772 2013-10-05 16:58:57 <maaku> railed: it very likely doesn't do what you think it does
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774 2013-10-05 16:59:15 <railed> how so?
775 2013-10-05 16:59:23 <maaku> transaction generation is non-deterministic, so each time you call CreateTransaction() you will end up with a different fee
776 2013-10-05 16:59:41 <railed> ah, bummer
777 2013-10-05 17:00:12 <maaku> the partial solution is to make CreateTransaction deterministic (see: coin control)
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779 2013-10-05 17:01:37 <jgarzik> tiyoT, create a decentralized protocol, please not another centralized watering hole
780 2013-10-05 17:01:44 <niko> Trader248: do not spam here, thanks
781 2013-10-05 17:02:09 <railed> maaku: thanks, I will have to read up on that. probably ultimately over my head, though :)
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783 2013-10-05 17:03:05 <jgarzik> railed, maaku, it is reasonable to provide fee feedback based on a raw transaction
784 2013-10-05 17:05:14 <railed> jgarzik: would that be different than what I'm obtaining by partially emulating a sendtoaddress call (and abandoning it before it actually commits) ?
785 2013-10-05 17:05:48 <maaku> the real issue in my mind is that people come with an intuition that the fee is a property of the amount, when in fact it is at the very least a property of the current state of the wallet
786 2013-10-05 17:07:18 <maaku> although with the current algorithm it is state-of-wallet + random-seed
787 2013-10-05 17:08:23 <maaku> railed: by creating a raw transaction than calculating the fee over the raw tx, you're preserving the same inputs
788 2013-10-05 17:10:34 <railed> hmm, I'm trying to avoid getting that deep into things
789 2013-10-05 17:11:07 <railed> what I'm writing is kind of a "transaction wrapper" or invoicer (in node.js), and I'd rather not have to think about the nitty-gritty of transactions
790 2013-10-05 17:11:47 <railed> I guess I'll just preload my bitcoind with 20 or 30 bucks worth of BTC and let all the fees come out of that
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809 2013-10-05 17:52:26 <tiyoT> jgarzik: thanks for the input jeff.
810 2013-10-05 17:53:08 <tiyoT> niko: read my skype nikooo =P
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812 2013-10-05 17:54:40 <niko> tiyoT: i doubt i have a skype account
813 2013-10-05 17:54:47 <niko> nvm
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816 2013-10-05 17:56:52 <tiyoT> niko: sorry if it was a different niko.
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823 2013-10-05 18:08:34 <tiyoT> jgarzik: bitmessage is decentralized protocal too right?
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860 2013-10-05 19:01:04 <ThomasV> !seen slush
861 2013-10-05 19:01:04 <gribble> slush was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 27 weeks, 2 days, 10 hours, 1 minute, and 17 seconds ago: <slush> not really :(
862 2013-10-05 19:01:20 <ThomasV> hmm
863 2013-10-05 19:03:26 Bkil has quit (Quit: Bye)
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865 2013-10-05 19:05:49 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: what's your opinion on deterministic signatures (rfc 6979)
866 2013-10-05 19:06:32 <ThomasV> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel/2843
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932 2013-10-05 21:18:33 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg02721.html
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934 2013-10-05 21:19:35 <gmaxwell> I think bitcoin software should use derandomized signing, especially hardware devices which are difficult to audit.
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936 2013-10-05 21:20:15 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/issues/323
937 2013-10-05 21:20:46 <ThomasV> slush added it to python-ecdsa
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940 2013-10-05 21:22:00 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: yea, I asked slush to use it (see the tresor thread)
941 2013-10-05 21:22:07 <ThomasV> I was wondering which hash function to use
942 2013-10-05 21:22:22 <ThomasV> I use sha256 in my commit
943 2013-10-05 21:22:53 <ThomasV> good to hear
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990 2013-10-05 22:39:28 <maaku> gmaxwell: aren't there side-channel reasons to use randomized signing?
991 2013-10-05 22:39:42 <maaku> certainly all implementations should XOR deterministic signature-specific information to ensure a unique nonce, but why get rid of the randomness?
992 2013-10-05 22:40:08 <gmaxwell> because "random" signing can be a sidechannel.
993 2013-10-05 22:41:05 <maaku> so purely deterministic signing releases less information?
994 2013-10-05 22:41:18 <gmaxwell> if a hardware signer has a loadable key and derandomized dsa you can verify that there is no sidechannel at all.
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999 2013-10-05 22:42:25 <gmaxwell> vs if its "random" it could cryptographically leak your private key in every signature, in a way what can't be distinguished from faithful behavior.
1000 2013-10-05 22:42:57 <maaku> you're talking about something other than nonce reuse from bad rng?
1001 2013-10-05 22:43:02 <gmaxwell> Correct.
1002 2013-10-05 22:43:22 <maaku> ok then i don't understand it, but i trust you
1003 2013-10-05 22:43:24 <gmaxwell> Non-random and good random are the same from a nonce reuse perspective.
1004 2013-10-05 22:44:04 <gmaxwell> Imagine that a hardware signer uses a 'random' K = H(ECDH(your_secret_key, attacker_pubkey) || message || 16 bit random value)
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1006 2013-10-05 22:44:34 <gmaxwell> then the attacker sees a signature, tries all 16 bit values, learns K and then recovers your private key.
1007 2013-10-05 22:44:55 <gmaxwell> But you'd be really hard pressed to tell this signer was evil, at least with blackbox analysis.
1008 2013-10-05 22:46:20 <gmaxwell> There are a bunch of ways to use free selection of K as a side channel to leak key material in a way that only the attacker would reconize.
1009 2013-10-05 22:46:26 <maaku> ok, what i had in mind was XOR(RFC_6979, 256-bit random k)
1010 2013-10-05 22:47:11 <maaku> but i can see how it's conservatively safer to just use deterministic
1011 2013-10-05 22:47:28 <maaku> to prevent implementers shooting their users in the foot, etc.
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1013 2013-10-05 22:47:43 <gmaxwell> maaku: thats no worse IFF the signer is honest. But the randomness could hide dishonesty... "Why did it use _this_ K/R?" "Randomness!" "Is the randomness good? bad? evil?" "No one knows!"
1014 2013-10-05 22:47:59 <maaku> yeah
1015 2013-10-05 22:48:20 <gmaxwell> good is obvious, bad is just a bad rng.. evil is worse than bad because it can look good but an attacker with a key could use it to steal data from you. :)
1016 2013-10-05 22:49:02 <gmaxwell> If I was making a signer for myself I'd do H(rfc6979 || rng) ... but if someone made one for me, I'd prefer just RFC_6979 so I could be confident that it was good and not bad or evil.
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1018 2013-10-05 22:49:37 <maaku> yeah and with hardware wallets that's the situation we're in. i see.
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1029 2013-10-05 23:09:09 * jgarzik runs bitcoind's internal solo miner, on one CPU core
1030 2013-10-05 23:09:09 <jgarzik> becauseÂ
security!
1031 2013-10-05 23:10:19 <jgarzik> and lottery!
1032 2013-10-05 23:10:19 <gavinandresen> Solo mining == lottery is a meme we should encourage.
1033 2013-10-05 23:11:05 <gavinandresen> I'd really like to see a few press stories: " I solo-mined for only 30 minutes and made $2500 !"
1034 2013-10-05 23:13:07 <gavinandresen> ⦠although $2,500 probably isn't a big enough lottery win to motivate many people to take their chances
1035 2013-10-05 23:13:07 <warren> gavinandresen: that'd be great especially if they were listening nodes...
1036 2013-10-05 23:13:07 <warren> it's currently hard to incentivize that
1037 2013-10-05 23:15:09 <sipa> "I mined for day and found every single block! half a million dollar!!!"
1038 2013-10-05 23:15:20 <warren> sipa: kind of like my one time pad of all zeroes.
1039 2013-10-05 23:19:34 MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1040 2013-10-05 23:19:34 <midnightmagic> just publish a proof that solo-mining over the long run, is the same as pool-mining, except that you get more even payouts with one.
1041 2013-10-05 23:19:53 <jgarzik> hehe
1042 2013-10-05 23:22:01 <midnightmagic> or offer a reward for a c-based version of p2pool
1043 2013-10-05 23:22:01 <jgarzik> In all honesty, solo mining on mainnet is actually a decent test of some of the block selection code and such
1044 2013-10-05 23:22:01 <jgarzik> and of course, it's fun too
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1050 2013-10-05 23:24:13 <midnightmagic> solo mining on mainnet is hard to do. Is it even possible with modern hashrates? (Like >1TH)?
1051 2013-10-05 23:24:13 <midnightmagic> or are you assuming running solo pool soft
1052 2013-10-05 23:24:13 MinerMan has joined
1053 2013-10-05 23:24:13 <jgarzik> midnightmagic, possible sure? it is just sha256
1054 2013-10-05 23:26:24 <jgarzik> nothing changes at higher difficulties
1055 2013-10-05 23:26:24 <jgarzik> ;;gentime 1600
1056 2013-10-05 23:26:24 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1600.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 148819199.805, is 12 years, 34 weeks, 5 days, 17 hours, 19 minutes, and 53 seconds
1057 2013-10-05 23:26:24 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: Yeah but packaging up work units I thought was hard for bitcoind.
1058 2013-10-05 23:26:24 <jgarzik> ;;gentime 1.6
1059 2013-10-05 23:26:24 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1.6 Mhps, given difficulty of 148819199.805, is 12667 years, 38 weeks, 1 day, 3 hours, 28 minutes, and 59 seconds
1060 2013-10-05 23:26:24 <midnightmagic> certainly not getwork() I'm assuming.
1061 2013-10-05 23:26:24 <jgarzik> there ya go
1062 2013-10-05 23:26:24 doublec_ has joined
1063 2013-10-05 23:26:24 <jgarzik> midnightmagic, internal miner
1064 2013-10-05 23:26:24 <midnightmagic> only twelve thousand centuries.
1065 2013-10-05 23:26:24 <midnightmagic> .. er.. no. 126 centuries.
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1069 2013-10-05 23:28:36 <warren> midnightmagic: need a p2pool that builds up to a minimum balance before payout. harder to bootstrap that, but less crappy for miners/network in the long-run.
1070 2013-10-05 23:28:36 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1071 2013-10-05 23:28:36 <midnightmagic> yikes would that ever be hard.
1072 2013-10-05 23:30:48 <gmaxwell> Its not just hard, it's not possible without introducing trusted parties.
1073 2013-10-05 23:30:48 <gmaxwell> It's also pretty pointless.
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1078 2013-10-05 23:32:59 <warren> gmaxwell: call me naive, but I think there's a design that doesn't require a trusted party
1079 2013-10-05 23:32:59 <conman> moo
1080 2013-10-05 23:32:59 <warren> or it's possible at least
1081 2013-10-05 23:32:59 <gmaxwell> warren: There isn't, note that I said "trusted parties" not party. I mean there is already the option thats built into p2pool, but beyond that I am reasonably confident that its not possible.
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1086 2013-10-05 23:37:33 <forrestv> i think it's possible. something exactly like eligius's CPPSRB could be implemented.. no trusted party to hold money is needed, the sharechain just needs unbounded memory
1087 2013-10-05 23:37:56 <forrestv> (since someone is paid every time a block is found; money is never held)
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1090 2013-10-05 23:40:11 <gmaxwell> forrestv: I don't believe you're correct. You could do something more like CPPSRB, but CPPSRB needs someone to hold earned but unpaid earnings unless all earned earnings are paid right away. And that wouldn't have the property warren wanted.
1091 2013-10-05 23:40:23 <gmaxwell> You could have earnings which aren't earned until more work goes in, but that increases variance.
1092 2013-10-05 23:40:39 doublec_ is now known as doublec
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1095 2013-10-05 23:49:05 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: where you at?
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