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   4 2013-10-10 00:09:37 <runeks> Are multi-sig transactions non-standard?
   5 2013-10-10 00:10:14 <gmaxwell> No.
   6 2013-10-10 00:11:39 <runeks> Cool.
   7 2013-10-10 00:11:46 <maaku> there are limits on size though, right?
   8 2013-10-10 00:11:48 <runeks> gmaxwell: When did they become standard?
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 103 2013-10-10 03:30:02 <warren> I fixed the bitcoin-0.8.5 with secp256k1 win32 build, but that guy is gone.
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 169 2013-10-10 05:11:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If I remember correctly, a multisig transaction up to n-of-3 IsStandard()
 170 2013-10-10 05:12:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Yes, that was 5 hours ago)
 171 2013-10-10 05:12:43 magicpig has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 174 2013-10-10 05:33:47 <ThomasV> ping gmaxwell
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 177 2013-10-10 05:35:47 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: pong
 178 2013-10-10 05:36:39 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: hi, I learned a few things about breaking ECC
 179 2013-10-10 05:37:35 <ThomasV> you were recommendind that I add iterations of key stretching to a 128 bit seed. is this really necessary?
 180 2013-10-10 05:37:39 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
 181 2013-10-10 05:37:51 <ThomasV> there's no key stretching mentioned in bip32
 182 2013-10-10 05:38:16 BNCatDIGISHELL has joined
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 184 2013-10-10 05:39:15 <ThomasV> the  way I understand it, breaking 256 bits ECC requires about 2^128 iterations with the rho method
 185 2013-10-10 05:39:36 <ThomasV> http://ecc-challenge.info/anon.pdf
 186 2013-10-10 05:39:42 Raccoon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 187 2013-10-10 05:40:15 <ThomasV> (although these iterations are certainly complicated and expensive)
 188 2013-10-10 05:40:25 <gmaxwell> Thats correct. It requires sqrt(keyspace), as its effectively a collision search.
 189 2013-10-10 05:40:46 <gmaxwell> Though its a little non-intutive because the probablity of success is not a simple linear product of the effort required.
 190 2013-10-10 05:40:49 Raccoon^ is now known as Raccoon
 191 2013-10-10 05:41:58 <gmaxwell> Unless I am misremembering, you had the stretching before I ever commented on your scheme.  It is essential to use key streching if you ever have a key which may be not really random (provided by a user), otherwise— probably not, though its harmless in any case.
 192 2013-10-10 05:42:28 <ThomasV> oh ok
 193 2013-10-10 05:42:38 <ThomasV> I thought it was you :)
 194 2013-10-10 05:43:02 <ThomasV> jim (from multibit) recommends we do not add stretching
 195 2013-10-10 05:43:46 <gmaxwell> Last I had checked, many of your users are doing "recovery" on non-random strings.
 196 2013-10-10 05:45:11 <ThomasV> the software does not really allow them to do that
 197 2013-10-10 05:45:29 <gmaxwell> If thats still the case, then I would strongly urge you to retain the streching.
 198 2013-10-10 05:45:34 <ThomasV> they cannot use arbitrary words, the words must come from a dictionary
 199 2013-10-10 05:46:26 <ThomasV> so, they cannot use their favorite sentence, like on brainwallet.org
 200 2013-10-10 05:47:17 <warren> sipa: " dealing with non-confirming transactions"
 201 2013-10-10 05:47:22 <warren> how is that special to HD?
 202 2013-10-10 05:47:27 <gmaxwell> If you directly limit your keyspace to a direct 2^128 bit subset of the 2^256 space I'd be somewhat concerned that a modified rho-method could recover keys in 2^64 operations. I'd have to think about that some to convince myself that switching between G*n to get it back in the allowed range would actually reduce the operation count.
 203 2013-10-10 05:47:55 magicpig has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 204 2013-10-10 05:48:42 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: I'm pretty sure I tested this before, after someone in #bitcoin-otc was robbed using an electrum brainwallet, and "recovering"  'correct horse stapler battery' or some such string worked okay. Has this changed?
 205 2013-10-10 05:49:51 magicpig has joined
 206 2013-10-10 05:50:04 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: electrum never accepted "correct horse battery staple" as input. you must have tested that on the brainwallet website, not on the software
 207 2013-10-10 05:50:28 <ThomasV> the brainwallet website does indeed accept any set of words
 208 2013-10-10 05:50:58 <gmaxwell> I'm sure I tested electrum, but perhaps it was some other string.
 209 2013-10-10 05:51:15 <ThomasV> I suspect it first checks if it is an electrum encoding, then falls back onto another hashing
 210 2013-10-10 05:51:46 tmsk has joined
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 212 2013-10-10 05:53:26 <Kireji> any eta on m-of-n transactions?
 213 2013-10-10 05:53:27 <ThomasV> it was certainly another string, because electrum needs multiple of 3 words, and because these words are not all in the dictionnary
 214 2013-10-10 05:53:46 reizuki__ has joined
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 216 2013-10-10 05:54:11 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: so, I can "restore"   "apple apple apple"
 217 2013-10-10 05:54:18 <ThomasV> yes you can
 218 2013-10-10 05:55:54 <gmaxwell> Seems like a bug unless the idea actually is to enable but discourage brainwallets?
 219 2013-10-10 05:56:31 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: what do you mean by "a direct subset"? does direct mean "without stretching"?
 220 2013-10-10 05:56:53 <gmaxwell> As in without a hash operation at all.
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 223 2013-10-10 05:57:41 <ThomasV> but there is a hash, as per bip32
 224 2013-10-10 05:58:49 <gmaxwell> < ThomasV> there's no key stretching mentioned in bip32  < your mention of BIP32 there made me think you were specifically not asking about bip32.
 225 2013-10-10 05:59:17 <ThomasV> oh no, sorry
 226 2013-10-10 05:59:48 <ThomasV> I have implemented bip32, and I am wondering if I need to add stretching
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 230 2013-10-10 06:00:27 <ThomasV> slush wants to add stretching in bip39, and jim says it is not needed
 231 2013-10-10 06:00:51 digitalmagus has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 232 2013-10-10 06:01:58 <gmaxwell> It's not needed, if and only if you're quite confident that the user won't do something stupid there. Personally I'd prefer to have it under the observed behavior that users will do stupid things because they don't understand the risks, and a little streaching is basically costless.
 233 2013-10-10 06:02:17 <ThomasV> ok
 234 2013-10-10 06:02:30 <ThomasV> I agree
 235 2013-10-10 06:02:36 <gmaxwell> Sipa was working on a format for the BIP32 master seeds that implicitly had a kind of streaching built in... but I think he's dropped work on that for now.
 236 2013-10-10 06:03:13 <ThomasV> but.. bip32 is supposed to be final?
 237 2013-10-10 06:03:31 <gmaxwell> (also, putting it there means that if someone creates a stupid  website that converts random user provided strings to your seeds they will always get the benefit of the streaching)
 238 2013-10-10 06:03:41 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: this would have been another BIP.
 239 2013-10-10 06:03:56 grau has joined
 240 2013-10-10 06:04:37 <ThomasV> gmaxwell, sipa: that's what slush wants to do in bip39
 241 2013-10-10 06:05:19 melvster has joined
 242 2013-10-10 06:05:56 <gmaxwell> I'm trying to find Sipa's post on bitcointalk describing his thinking there.
 243 2013-10-10 06:06:18 <gmaxwell> In any case, if you want to pull me into the conversation with Jim, I could try to convince him of this.
 244 2013-10-10 06:07:08 <Luke-Jr> surely "users are stupid" is convincing in and of itself? :P
 245 2013-10-10 06:07:09 <ThomasV> well, I don't think jim will really object. we were just talking about using a common scheme
 246 2013-10-10 06:08:41 magicpig has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 247 2013-10-10 06:09:13 <warren> src/util.h:213:57: error: ‘pid_t’ has not been declared
 248 2013-10-10 06:09:18 <warren> anyone ran into this after upgrading g++?
 249 2013-10-10 06:09:40 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well not just stupid, but ... uh. adaptively stupid.  If you build a tall railing preventing them from falling down a cliff someone will come along and sell ladders to your users. :P
 250 2013-10-10 06:09:45 <ThomasV> but it looks like bip39 will not be ready soon, so I guess I will release a first bip32 version of electrum that does not use it
 251 2013-10-10 06:10:19 <gmaxwell> "Brain entallenator"!
 252 2013-10-10 06:12:10 <ThomasV> hmm, I guess that the ladders are given for free, in that case
 253 2013-10-10 06:12:16 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
 254 2013-10-10 06:12:21 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: suggest entallenator to the mnemonic dictionary?
 255 2013-10-10 06:12:31 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: hah indeed.
 256 2013-10-10 06:14:05 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: well you could still implement the strenghtening part without using the BIP39 dictionary.
 257 2013-10-10 06:14:21 <ThomasV> yes I guess that's what I will do
 258 2013-10-10 06:16:01 magicpig has joined
 259 2013-10-10 06:17:35 <gmaxwell> If you're looking to for a KDF function, I guess my first resort would be PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA512  (because BIP32 already uses HMAC-SHA512). I'd suggest Catena or scrypt, but compatiblity with hardware wallets that have barely any memory makes that not so useful.
 260 2013-10-10 06:19:10 AtashiCon has joined
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 264 2013-10-10 06:25:15 <ThomasV> what's funny enough is that slush wants to have key stretching for a very different reason: he envisions an attack where the attacker knows a part of your seed words
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 266 2013-10-10 06:27:25 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: thats not an entirely crazy concern... in some ways streaching there is even more effective than it is for brainwallets, since the attacker doesn't get a precomputation gain (E.g. cracking multiple ones at once, or building a rainbow table)
 267 2013-10-10 06:28:25 magicpig has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 268 2013-10-10 06:28:48 <gmaxwell> It's not a crazy security strategy to split up your key backup in two... though 64 bits isn't much security, unless the stretching is really agressive.
 269 2013-10-10 06:30:13 qbasicer has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 270 2013-10-10 06:33:51 <swulf--> which encoding of ecdsa public keys are 120 bytes? I read that pubkeys can be as long as 120 bytes... how?
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 273 2013-10-10 06:38:10 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: I'd rather use two keys and p2sh
 274 2013-10-10 06:38:52 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: increases the size of all your transactions, however.
 275 2013-10-10 06:39:02 <ThomasV> yeah
 276 2013-10-10 06:41:12 <ThomasV> but "agressive" stretching is probably not realistic to achieve in pure python
 277 2013-10-10 06:42:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: search for self-descriptive key strengthening
 278 2013-10-10 06:42:27 a_meteor has joined
 279 2013-10-10 06:43:45 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: I know. It's very frustating the JS/python/php push down the security so much from such things. :(  (Small hardware wallets too, but I find it easier to forgive them)
 280 2013-10-10 06:44:36 <sipa> warren: multiwallet, dealing with non-confirming transactions, bip32, watch-only keys, phantomcircuit's optimizations, ... are all completely independent, it's just that there is a lot to be done regarding wallets, and i'd rather focus on just one thing at a time (which for now isn't any wallet stuff)
 281 2013-10-10 06:44:44 <warren> ooh
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 292 2013-10-10 06:57:03 <sipa> gmaxwell, ThomasV: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102349.0
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 294 2013-10-10 06:57:48 <sipa> it could be a standard on top of bip32, as it's only about how the seed is obtained, which bip32 doesn't specify
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 296 2013-10-10 07:00:19 <ThomasV> sipa: I was just reading it :)
 297 2013-10-10 07:02:13 <swulf--> does 1-of-1 multisig work like you'd expect it to?
 298 2013-10-10 07:02:49 <sipa> sure
 299 2013-10-10 07:03:26 <ThomasV> 1 of 1 exists?
 300 2013-10-10 07:03:38 <sipa> yes
 301 2013-10-10 07:04:00 <ThomasV> I mean, is it propagated by  nodes?
 302 2013-10-10 07:04:07 maaku has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 303 2013-10-10 07:04:10 <swulf--> is it considered standard?
 304 2013-10-10 07:04:17 <sipa> i think so, yes
 305 2013-10-10 07:04:20 <swulf--> neat
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 307 2013-10-10 07:04:51 <ThomasV> ok, bbl
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 309 2013-10-10 07:07:03 <melvster> do any alt coins have URI schemes too?
 310 2013-10-10 07:07:13 <melvster> e.g. litecoin:
 311 2013-10-10 07:07:30 <melvster> is it at all standardized?
 312 2013-10-10 07:07:39 <gmaxwell> wrong channel
 313 2013-10-10 07:08:25 <melvster> perhaps I can rephrase
 314 2013-10-10 07:08:38 <melvster> is the bitcoin URI scheme generic or specific
 315 2013-10-10 07:08:57 <melvster> is there any kind of standardization
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 317 2013-10-10 07:09:56 <Luke-Jr> specific
 318 2013-10-10 07:09:56 <warren> melvster: names are the result of collective delusion
 319 2013-10-10 07:10:03 <melvster> gmaxwell: let me explain ... im trying to model a system that will link any web page to a bitcoin account
 320 2013-10-10 07:10:32 <melvster> but I want to know how far I should abstract things, so that it could apply to any crypto currency or not ...
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 322 2013-10-10 07:11:31 <sipa> you should assume that different crypocurrencies use their own uri scheme, if any
 323 2013-10-10 07:11:44 <melvster> so you will be able to do something like <meta rel="w3id.org/bitcoin#address" href="???" /> and in html5 it will automatically be able to tell you have a bitcoin account associated with apage
 324 2013-10-10 07:12:18 <melvster> sipa: ok thanks ... what I'll do is make a simple hierarchy ... with crypto as the parent then bitcoin a subclass of that
 325 2013-10-10 07:12:19 <sipa> what is address here?
 326 2013-10-10 07:12:25 <sipa> can it be a payment url?
 327 2013-10-10 07:13:07 <melvster> sipa: ive not uploaded it yet, but it's simply a rel element in a schema that will explain what it means
 328 2013-10-10 07:13:46 <melvster> sipa: at first I just want to be able to model the most simple linkage ... payment urls can be added if they make sense (and when I understand them better :))
 329 2013-10-10 07:14:25 <melvster> it's kind of just meta data for robots etc.
 330 2013-10-10 07:14:44 <melvster> or maybe even a browser plugin can be smart and work it out without having to introspect on the URLs
 331 2013-10-10 07:15:05 <melvster> ie in other words, integration with the semantic web
 332 2013-10-10 07:15:21 <melvster> to make things both human and machine readable
 333 2013-10-10 07:15:56 <sipa> i don't understand the purpose
 334 2013-10-10 07:17:08 <melvster> for example: currently i have an href in my homepage that links to my bitcoin address, but normally it's a best practice to give HTML a *hint* so that it knows what kind of thing the href is, e.g. I might have a license for my page, and then id put rel="license" in there, and then other systems can have a better idea of what is being described
 335 2013-10-10 07:19:07 <melvster> rel is used quite often on the web ... you might know rel="meta" and rel="canonical" ... they give machines hints as to what things mean
 336 2013-10-10 07:20:09 <sipa> ok
 337 2013-10-10 07:21:35 <melvster> my main use case is to model this for bitcoin ... but it occurred to me that it would not be a huge overhead to do all the cyrpto currencies together
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 340 2013-10-10 07:22:52 * melvster has been meaning to do a semantic web integration for a few years ... only just got a bit of time freed up for it now, so hopefully want to try and get it semi optimal on the first attempt
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 342 2013-10-10 07:23:31 <swulf--> sipa: why isn't OP_CHECKMULTISIGVERIFY considered standard?
 343 2013-10-10 07:24:01 <sipa> it isn't?
 344 2013-10-10 07:24:06 <swulf--> as far as I can tell, no
 345 2013-10-10 07:24:09 Applicat_ has joined
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 347 2013-10-10 07:24:19 <swulf--> Solver() only returns TX_MULTISIG in the case of OP_CHECKMULTISIG
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 349 2013-10-10 07:24:28 <sipa> ok
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 353 2013-10-10 07:25:39 <swulf--> OP_xVERIFY as the last opcode of a script doesn't make it any different than OP_x (and the top of the stack having a true value), right?
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 360 2013-10-10 07:29:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: right
 361 2013-10-10 07:31:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|OP_VERIFY just inserts another "fail if false" check somewhere in the script
 362 2013-10-10 07:31:32 <swulf--> OP_xVERIFY as the last opcode of a script doesn't make it any different than OP_x (and the top of the stack having a true value), right?
 363 2013-10-10 07:31:39 <swulf--> arg oops sorry
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 367 2013-10-10 07:36:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Huh. Just got an error I've never seen before: http://i.imgur.com/Td0ULW5.png
 368 2013-10-10 07:37:48 <sipa> bitcoin is already running?
 369 2013-10-10 07:38:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think mainnet starts at boot
 370 2013-10-10 07:38:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|This was me trying to open a testnet node through the Run box
 371 2013-10-10 07:39:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, I just tried again and it seems to have worked
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 469 2013-10-10 11:26:03 <rdymac> which clients are implementing (or plan to) the Payment Protocol from 0.9?
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 475 2013-10-10 11:29:09 <jgarzik> TD, where is your post from years ago, that describes BOND<hash> trading?
 476 2013-10-10 11:29:14 Eneerge_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 477 2013-10-10 11:29:28 <jgarzik> TD, BOND<hash> OP_DROP etc.
 478 2013-10-10 11:29:41 Eneerge has joined
 479 2013-10-10 11:29:44 <jgarzik> TD, the design I half-implemented in pybond/smartcoins
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 494 2013-10-10 12:03:51 <Mqrius> It is said that downloading is not the bottleneck for the blockchain download. I just want to note that for me, it is. I'm not sure if it's peer upload speed or harddisk access, but my CPU is mostly idle, and I'm on gigabit network.
 495 2013-10-10 12:06:46 <wumpus> Mqrius: do you have the listening port open and reachable? what's your number of connections?
 496 2013-10-10 12:07:42 <Mqrius> wumpus: I can't open that on the network I'm currently on, so my number of connections is only 8 atm
 497 2013-10-10 12:07:54 <wumpus> that's at least the explanation
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 501 2013-10-10 12:08:15 <sipa> Mqrius: network is not a bottleneck; the silly downloading mechanism is
 502 2013-10-10 12:08:31 <sipa> and CPU is only expected to be a bottleneck after the last checkpoint
 503 2013-10-10 12:09:21 <Mqrius> wumpus, sipa, so why not increase the number of outgoing connections? The reason I've heard against that is that it's not necessary, but clearly it is
 504 2013-10-10 12:09:32 Musk has joined
 505 2013-10-10 12:09:50 <sipa> the number of outgoing connections has nothing to do with it
 506 2013-10-10 12:10:00 <sipa> we're only downloading from a single peer
 507 2013-10-10 12:10:07 <sipa> (for now; being worked on)
 508 2013-10-10 12:10:08 <Mqrius> (also, are there direct downloads available for the blockchain up to the last checkpoint?)
 509 2013-10-10 12:10:17 <sipa> yes, bootstrap.dat
 510 2013-10-10 12:10:18 <sipa> google it
 511 2013-10-10 12:10:19 <Mqrius> Oh. Right that would be a problem.
 512 2013-10-10 12:10:54 <sipa> i've benchmarked a local test version that syncs with the network in 45 minutes from random peers :p
 513 2013-10-10 12:11:17 <sipa> (on a very fast machine, with very goog network connectivity, using experimental crypto code)
 514 2013-10-10 12:11:51 <wumpus> increasing the number of outgoing connections would put a lot more load on the network 
 515 2013-10-10 12:11:53 <Mqrius> Now that sounds good :p except for the experimental part
 516 2013-10-10 12:12:40 <Mqrius> wumpus: perhaps only do that when it's syncing, so it catches up faster. It will need to get the data anyway, so total data doesn't change, if it throttles down afterwards.
 517 2013-10-10 12:12:50 <sipa> Mqrius: ...
 518 2013-10-10 12:12:55 <wumpus> Mqrius: problem is not the amount of data, but the number of connection slots
 519 2013-10-10 12:13:12 <sipa> Mqrius: as long as we're downloading from a single peer, having more outgoing connections during syncup will only slow you down
 520 2013-10-10 12:13:31 <sipa> (and waste other's connection slots)
 521 2013-10-10 12:13:47 <Mqrius> sipa: Yeah I got that, I was considering a hypothetical version that did download from multiple peers.
 522 2013-10-10 12:14:01 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 523 2013-10-10 12:14:07 <sipa> my headersfirst branch does download from multiple peers in parallel
 524 2013-10-10 12:14:58 <sipa> still, doesn't make sense to have too many peers
 525 2013-10-10 12:15:21 <sipa> the mechanism is limited by the speed variation between peers
 526 2013-10-10 12:15:38 <sipa> because a single slow peer can hold the whole sync process
 527 2013-10-10 12:17:41 <sipa> s/hold/stall/
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 531 2013-10-10 12:22:06 <Mqrius> sipa: it could still download blocks and store them in the queue for verification, but it wouldn't be optimal I guess.
 532 2013-10-10 12:22:27 <sipa> Mqrius: the problem is that you can only process a block when you have its predecessors
 533 2013-10-10 12:22:38 <sipa> so we use a moving window of downloadable blocks
 534 2013-10-10 12:23:02 <sipa> which means you can download some blocks without having their parents, but not arbitrarily much
 535 2013-10-10 12:23:37 <sipa> and the result of that is that if your oldest undownloaded block is requested from a slow peer, while all other blocks are already there, you're stalled
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 542 2013-10-10 12:31:47 <swulf--> sipa: but you have indeed saved time by preloading the next blocks while waiting on th slow one. once the slow one arrives, you can zip through a number of headers without any wait time at all
 543 2013-10-10 12:31:59 <sipa> swulf--: of course
 544 2013-10-10 12:32:06 <sipa> it's a huge improvement
 545 2013-10-10 12:32:14 <swulf--> so it really boils down to what's slower, the network download or the header processing
 546 2013-10-10 12:32:14 <sipa> but you can still be stalled by a single slow peer
 547 2013-10-10 12:32:22 <sipa> block processing you mean
 548 2013-10-10 12:32:32 <swulf--> i was assuming we're talking about headersonly ?
 549 2013-10-10 12:32:32 <sipa> header processing is instant :)
 550 2013-10-10 12:32:38 <sipa> no, headersfirst
 551 2013-10-10 12:32:46 <swulf--> ah, well, another story
 552 2013-10-10 12:32:57 <sipa> in headersonly you wouldn't download blocks at all :D
 553 2013-10-10 12:33:23 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 554 2013-10-10 12:33:32 <sipa> ah, you mean SPV i guess
 555 2013-10-10 12:33:43 <swulf--> you can still verify the chain via the headers only
 556 2013-10-10 12:33:56 <swulf--> as long as you ignore trust on the merkle root
 557 2013-10-10 12:34:10 <swulf--> and some other assumptions..
 558 2013-10-10 12:34:14 <sipa> as long as you assume no invalid transactions would be accepted by miners
 559 2013-10-10 12:34:18 <swulf--> right
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 561 2013-10-10 12:35:39 <swulf--> in any case, even if you downloaded headers 2..262k but not #1, once you get #1 you're still in a better position than if you had waited in some window of 1+k headers
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 563 2013-10-10 12:36:10 <sipa> well, at least in my implementation, headers are not cached in any way, and just requested and processed serially
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 565 2013-10-10 12:36:20 <sipa> as they're so tiny it's hardly worth it
 566 2013-10-10 12:36:34 <swulf--> the headers are a fixed size, so they could easily be stored in a flat file
 567 2013-10-10 12:36:53 <sipa> and they're a few MiB total
 568 2013-10-10 12:36:57 <sipa> you have them within seconds
 569 2013-10-10 12:37:09 <swulf--> that's pretty cool
 570 2013-10-10 12:37:17 <swulf--> i should try out your headersfirst branch
 571 2013-10-10 12:37:21 <sipa> well, seconds are an exaggeration
 572 2013-10-10 12:37:28 <sipa> but they're way way faster than the blocks
 573 2013-10-10 12:37:32 <sipa> which is what matters
 574 2013-10-10 12:37:38 <TD> eh
 575 2013-10-10 12:37:43 <swulf--> if you're going to eventually download the full blockchain anyway, what advantages does headersfirst give?
 576 2013-10-10 12:37:44 <TD> about 18mb today i would think
 577 2013-10-10 12:37:49 <TD> it's 4mb of headers per year of operation right
 578 2013-10-10 12:37:53 <sipa> yeah
 579 2013-10-10 12:37:58 <sipa> swulf--: always knowing the best chain
 580 2013-10-10 12:38:01 <sipa> not needing checkpoints
 581 2013-10-10 12:38:04 <TD> the delay of downloading all headers in an SPV wallet is definitely noticeable
 582 2013-10-10 12:38:19 <TD> well checkpoints are useful for skipping signature checks and other things
 583 2013-10-10 12:38:19 <sipa> a ton of attacks are gone
 584 2013-10-10 12:38:41 <sipa> TD: you can have a rule "if buried by N months worth of PoW, skip signature checks"
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 586 2013-10-10 12:38:53 <sipa> swulf--: parallel block download
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 588 2013-10-10 12:39:37 <sipa> swulf--: no dealing with orphan blocks at all (as we only request blocks after we know their connection to the tree)
 589 2013-10-10 12:39:52 <swulf--> how is that even possible?
 590 2013-10-10 12:40:06 <swulf--> the very end of the headers could be detached by the time you get the full chain
 591 2013-10-10 12:40:26 <sipa> oh
 592 2013-10-10 12:40:37 <sipa> by orphan blocks i mean "blocks whose parents aren't known"
 593 2013-10-10 12:40:49 <sipa> not "reorganized blocks"
 594 2013-10-10 12:41:17 <swulf--> so network broadcasts new block, first thing you do is request the header and stick it into the headers chain, and only after it fits into the chain do you request the full block?
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 597 2013-10-10 12:41:39 <sipa> swulf--: under some circumstances, we request the header + the block at the same time
 598 2013-10-10 12:41:52 <swulf--> ah
 599 2013-10-10 12:41:56 <sipa> swulf--: but if the headers doesn't connect, we do throw the block away (which shouldn't ever happen)
 600 2013-10-10 12:42:12 <sipa> actually, it could happen in case of >500 block reorgs
 601 2013-10-10 12:42:39 <swulf--> that's... unlikely though :)
 602 2013-10-10 12:43:01 <sipa> i think in that case we'll have bigger problems than wasting 1 block worth of bandwidth
 603 2013-10-10 12:43:07 <swulf--> yup
 604 2013-10-10 12:43:13 <sipa> actually, >2000 block reorgs
 605 2013-10-10 12:43:22 <sipa> getheaders fetches up to 2000 headers at once
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 637 2013-10-10 13:39:05 <skinnkavaj> Can I safely click on unknown links on irc and everywhere else if I have no scripts and java is not installed. Is there any other way to get virus? I have windows 8.
 638 2013-10-10 13:39:24 <_dr> most certainly not
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 640 2013-10-10 13:39:59 <skinnkavaj> _dr: So even though i run chrome with no script activated, is it possible to get virus from a site?
 641 2013-10-10 13:40:06 <TD> welll
 642 2013-10-10 13:40:16 <TD> the whole point of the web is that you click random links
 643 2013-10-10 13:40:27 <skinnkavaj> TD: True, but with bitcoin you are scared.
 644 2013-10-10 13:40:30 <TD> it's meant to be safe. chrome is pretty secure
 645 2013-10-10 13:40:30 <skinnkavaj> to lose them
 646 2013-10-10 13:40:32 <TD> well encrypt your wallet
 647 2013-10-10 13:40:43 <TD> so far i've never heard of anyone losing money out of an encrypted wallet just because they clicked on a link
 648 2013-10-10 13:40:50 <TD> the thing where you have to be careful is downloading and running apps
 649 2013-10-10 13:40:52 <_dr> yeah. chrome is pretty safe. i assumed you were running IE
 650 2013-10-10 13:40:55 <TD> by all means visit whatever pages you like
 651 2013-10-10 13:41:09 <skinnkavaj> TD: im talking about keylogger. i am afraid to get a keylogger installed by cliccking on some spam lins here or on reddit by some bot.
 652 2013-10-10 13:41:10 <TD> if that page says, hey download my amazing bitcoin app! and you have no idea who the hell wrote that program ...... think twice
 653 2013-10-10 13:41:23 <TD> if you're on chrome and it's up to date (which it nearly always is) then it should be safe
 654 2013-10-10 13:41:26 <skinnkavaj> TD: Ofc i would not allow to download anything suscipious.
 655 2013-10-10 13:41:40 <TD> then fear not
 656 2013-10-10 13:41:44 <skinnkavaj> I am just like afriad of clicking a site like mtg0x.com
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 658 2013-10-10 13:41:55 <skinnkavaj> Thanks
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 660 2013-10-10 13:42:12 <TD> well phishing is something else
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 662 2013-10-10 13:43:05 <skinnkavaj> Pishing is if you are stupid enough to give out details to a scam site, right?
 663 2013-10-10 13:43:25 <TD> it's if you think you're signing in or using one site, but are actually using an imposter site, yes
 664 2013-10-10 13:43:29 <TD> you don't have to be stupid though
 665 2013-10-10 13:43:31 <skinnkavaj> are there any other stuff then no script i should download to chrome to make it more secure?
 666 2013-10-10 13:43:37 <TD> just careless for a moment. it's easy to screw up
 667 2013-10-10 13:43:40 <TD> you shouldn't even need noscript
 668 2013-10-10 13:43:44 <TD> chrome out of the box is fine
 669 2013-10-10 13:43:53 <skinnkavaj> really?
 670 2013-10-10 13:43:57 <skinnkavaj> why do people use noscript then?
 671 2013-10-10 13:43:57 <TD> yes
 672 2013-10-10 13:44:15 <TD> for security, it's more useful on firefox
 673 2013-10-10 13:44:23 <TD> some people use it because they prefer a plain-jane web
 674 2013-10-10 13:44:29 <skinnkavaj> ok so chrome more secure than firefox
 675 2013-10-10 13:44:29 <TD> but not many people use noscript
 676 2013-10-10 13:44:36 <TD> chrome sandboxes its rendering engine+javascript
 677 2013-10-10 13:44:44 <TD> last i heard, firefox is working on that but not done yet
 678 2013-10-10 13:44:50 <TD> i might be wrong. perhaps the latest firefoxes are also sandboxes
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 711 2013-10-10 14:37:24 <helo> ransomware bitcoin virus :/
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 713 2013-10-10 14:38:00 <TD> where's that?
 714 2013-10-10 14:38:08 <helo> would be kind of nice to have balance information encrypted in a wallet to prevent such a virus from knowing how much ransom it should request...
 715 2013-10-10 14:38:15 <helo> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1o53hl/disturbing_bitcoin_virus_encrypts_instead_of/
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 717 2013-10-10 14:40:06 <helo> would be nice if people just kept good backups
 718 2013-10-10 14:40:12 <helo> i.e. not a problem
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 721 2013-10-10 14:45:48 <TD> yeah. those people would have been out of luck if their hard disks had crashed too
 722 2013-10-10 14:46:10 <TD> still, really could cause a PR problem for bitcoin if it becomes more widespread. a lot of people will say, "well you couldn't pull that off with credit cards, duh"
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 724 2013-10-10 14:46:42 <TD> also most backups aren't real time
 725 2013-10-10 14:46:51 <TD> it's only asking for 2BTC. for a company that's easily less than a days work
 726 2013-10-10 14:47:01 <TD> it can be faster to pay the ransom than do a restore from tape, even
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 728 2013-10-10 14:47:23 <Ry4an> I wanted to start small.
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 730 2013-10-10 14:47:34 <Ry4an> I mean _maybe_they_ wanted to start small. ;)
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 732 2013-10-10 14:47:56 <TD> this is the kind of reason i was mentally exploring the idea of bitcoin traitor tracing
 733 2013-10-10 14:48:03 <TD> but the scheme i came up with was computationally infeasible
 734 2013-10-10 14:48:23 <TD> Ry4an: best not to joke about that ....
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 736 2013-10-10 14:49:55 <Ry4an> I know, I regretted it as soon as I said it, but it's early and I've not had enough coffee to engage the joke-filter lobe.
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 741 2013-10-10 14:54:35 <TD> i think eventually coin tainting is inevitable for reasons like this
 742 2013-10-10 14:54:55 <TD> some people won't like it, but the chances of it happening anyway seem really high to me.
 743 2013-10-10 14:54:59 <helo> but decentralization :(
 744 2013-10-10 14:54:59 <Ry4an> TD: I think people will do it, but I'm not convinced it's a good idea.
 745 2013-10-10 14:55:09 <TD> you can have decentralised coin tainting
 746 2013-10-10 14:55:28 <TD> think of it like spam filtering. email is decentralised. spam filters are decentralised. they can still share lists of bad IPs and domains
 747 2013-10-10 14:55:55 <sipa> as in: you can choose whom to listen to as authority which defines what is tainted?
 748 2013-10-10 14:55:56 <TD> the "tainting" means the wallet would show you a warning when receiving the coins. you can then do what you want with it
 749 2013-10-10 14:56:05 <TD> i.e. ask the person who sent you the money for ID documents and then file a police report
 750 2013-10-10 14:56:08 <TD> yes
 751 2013-10-10 14:56:14 <TD> authority would be the wrong word
 752 2013-10-10 14:56:18 <TD> vendor of lists
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 754 2013-10-10 14:56:21 <sipa> right
 755 2013-10-10 14:56:36 <TD> consider cryptolocker/crilock
 756 2013-10-10 14:56:41 <TD> the guy has to spend his bitcoins somehow
 757 2013-10-10 14:56:43 <Ry4an> Currently, rightly or wrongly, people aren't worried about accepting small sums of cash as long as they're convinced it's not counterfit -- I might suspect my customer is a drug dealer, but I'm not worried about accepting his $2 for a soda.  But if I'm not online to run a taint check I would be affraid to accept his BTC.
 758 2013-10-10 14:57:07 <TD> well accepting bitcoins if you're offline is dangerous anyway, you're trusting the sender at that point implicitly
 759 2013-10-10 14:57:38 <TD> if you accept coins without checking some list, and then when you spend them, you're the one that shows up, no problem
 760 2013-10-10 14:58:05 <TD> just say "it wasn't me, but here's my details and if the police want to get in touch with me, here's how they can do it". now both sides have done the best they can
 761 2013-10-10 14:58:14 <TD> so they can just continue with their trade as before
 762 2013-10-10 14:58:23 <Ry4an> I do agree something like this will come about but I think it will be abused more than it will help.
 763 2013-10-10 14:58:26 <TD> if the underlying cause of being listed is bad enough, eventually someone will follow up
 764 2013-10-10 14:58:46 <TD> abused how
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 766 2013-10-10 14:59:47 <Ry4an> but "bad enough" is in the eye of the beholder.  There will be people who won't accept BTC that were ever donated to and spent by planned parenthood to Church X.
 767 2013-10-10 15:00:14 <Ry4an> It'll be like the current realtime-blackhole spam blocking shit-shit.  Where a lot of very well meaning people keep lists of dubious accuracy
 768 2013-10-10 15:00:27 <Ry4an> and you never know which lists the smtp server to which you're sending is checking.
 769 2013-10-10 15:00:53 <Ry4an> and when you get on a list wrongly or through varying standards you're guilty until proven innocent.
 770 2013-10-10 15:00:56 <TD> yes. and guess what - postmasters *do* stop using overly abuse blacklists
 771 2013-10-10 15:00:58 <petertodd> TD: < jgarzik> TD, where is your post from years ago, that describes BOND<hash> trading? <- want to cite you properly in a paper I'm writing
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 773 2013-10-10 15:01:20 <TD> that's why spamhaus rages against google so often. they want to block google sending IPs quite often but they know their users will abandon them if they are too aggresive
 774 2013-10-10 15:01:32 <TD> petertodd: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Distributed_markets
 775 2013-10-10 15:01:41 <TD> petertodd:  that's basically it in wiki form
 776 2013-10-10 15:01:44 <TD> petertodd: thanks for the cite
 777 2013-10-10 15:02:03 <Ry4an> TD right: shit-show.  You think this will help?
 778 2013-10-10 15:02:35 <phantomcircuit> TD, i suspect automated coinjoin with the stated purpose of saving on transaction fees will eventually become very widespread
 779 2013-10-10 15:02:36 <TD> Ry4an: spam filters are a good analogy because the early lists were based on rules that were basically made up by some RBL operator, and modern filters rely on measuring group consensus, which pisses off mail senders who think they're "good" but are actually abusive
 780 2013-10-10 15:02:44 <phantomcircuit> making the entire concept of taining irrelevant
 781 2013-10-10 15:02:46 <phantomcircuit> tainint*
 782 2013-10-10 15:02:50 <phantomcircuit> tainting*
 783 2013-10-10 15:03:27 <Ry4an> TD or anyone who gets an IP address handed to them by someone who previuosly abused it.
 784 2013-10-10 15:03:41 <TD> phantomcircuit: yeah, that could be, we'll see how things play out. but IMO stuff like cryptolocker is going to be a real pain point for the bitcoin community. right now it seems to be using a clearnet C&C server. you link that up with Tor and it becomes very painful to stop
 785 2013-10-10 15:04:16 <phantomcircuit> TD, randomware?
 786 2013-10-10 15:04:18 <phantomcircuit> for bitcoin?
 787 2013-10-10 15:04:20 <TD> Ry4an: spam filters expire entries after a while. but yes, email anti-spam is far from perfect
 788 2013-10-10 15:04:21 <TD> phantomcircuit: yeah
 789 2013-10-10 15:04:23 <phantomcircuit> why not just steal the bitcoins
 790 2013-10-10 15:04:29 <petertodd> TD: cool, I was asked to do an overview of all the colored coins and similar mechanisms; what term would you use for the general idea of the "embed a hash of some contract in the tx"?
 791 2013-10-10 15:04:33 <TD> phantomcircuit: it attacks people who don't have any bitcoins
 792 2013-10-10 15:04:41 <phantomcircuit> oh
 793 2013-10-10 15:04:46 <TD> phantomcircuit: it forces them to buy some: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1o53hl/disturbing_bitcoin_virus_encrypts_instead_of/
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 795 2013-10-10 15:04:54 <phantomcircuit> it's locking up all their personal documents and then demands bitcoins
 796 2013-10-10 15:04:56 <phantomcircuit> that's uh
 797 2013-10-10 15:05:05 <MC1984> coinjoin is the real deal right
 798 2013-10-10 15:05:06 <TD> petertodd: not sure. attachment? reference? pointer?
 799 2013-10-10 15:05:13 <phantomcircuit> well to be fair previous randomware allowed you to pay with a cc
 800 2013-10-10 15:05:26 <TD> Ry4an: however consider the alternative ...... would you prefer a world without spam filters?
 801 2013-10-10 15:05:34 <phantomcircuit> and you couldn't get the funds back because they were lying about how the card was charged and then disappearing with the funds
 802 2013-10-10 15:05:43 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, yes
 803 2013-10-10 15:06:06 <TD> phantomcircuit: that can't really have worked, you could just chargeback after decrypting the files. this virus uses bitcoin and moneypak
 804 2013-10-10 15:06:12 <TD> it's been around for a while. using bitcoin is a new thing.
 805 2013-10-10 15:06:16 <petertodd> TD: hmm... "contract commitment"? similar idea to what I proposed for machine-readable fidelity bonds
 806 2013-10-10 15:06:20 <MC1984> tained seems pretty discredited anyway
 807 2013-10-10 15:06:28 <MC1984> everyone someone brings it up people are like how about no
 808 2013-10-10 15:06:37 <TD> petertodd: that works too. although you're not really committing to anything ahead of time. it's just a more efficient approach than embedding the actual data you care about into the tx
 809 2013-10-10 15:07:13 <TD> MC1984: it's about as real as coin tainting is - there are forum threads and not much more. well, i say that, genjix wrote some code for it didn't he? so i guess it's a bit further along. perhaps it'll be a feature of "dark wallet"
 810 2013-10-10 15:07:25 <TD> i don't know of any wallets today that do coinjoin type transactions
 811 2013-10-10 15:07:27 <jgarzik> petertodd, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=308508.msg3312544#msg3312544
 812 2013-10-10 15:07:33 <petertodd> TD: well, by commitment I mean how once you make the tx, you can't change what contract the tx committed too
 813 2013-10-10 15:07:33 <jgarzik> petertodd, several links there
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 815 2013-10-10 15:07:43 <MC1984> by real i meant theoretically sound
 816 2013-10-10 15:07:56 <petertodd> jgarzik: thanks!
 817 2013-10-10 15:07:59 <TD> Ry4an: decentralised communities usually evolve some mechanisms to deal with bad actors eventually. email is a P2P network that evolved spam filters.
 818 2013-10-10 15:08:01 <phantomcircuit> TD, if you're a scam artist cc's can be made very hard to chargeback, ie bs company which claims the cards were charged in person the funds will be available to them the next day and wontt be held
 819 2013-10-10 15:08:05 <TD> Tor has exit policies, though they're not really a complete solution
 820 2013-10-10 15:08:30 <TD> phantomcircuit: as the virus does not use credit cards, presumably the author found it does not work anymore
 821 2013-10-10 15:08:30 <phantomcircuit> TD, since the bank would actually lose money on this (they cant get the money back from the merchant) they dont just let you chargeback without a fight
 822 2013-10-10 15:08:47 <TD> perhaps it used to work a while ago. but the card networks can kick anyone out, and they do.
 823 2013-10-10 15:08:48 <phantomcircuit> TD, probably just trying to increase their profit margin
 824 2013-10-10 15:08:57 <TD> i really doubt that.
 825 2013-10-10 15:10:00 <phantomcircuit> TD, shell companies and money mules have to be expensive
 826 2013-10-10 15:10:18 <TD> oh, yes, once you take into account the costs of extracting and laundering the card payments, sure. then i can imagine bitcoin is cheaper.
 827 2013-10-10 15:10:28 <TD> but the risks of being caught are also a lot lower
 828 2013-10-10 15:10:31 <TD> (presumably)
 829 2013-10-10 15:10:43 <phantomcircuit> TD, which is definitely part of the profit margin
 830 2013-10-10 15:11:14 <phantomcircuit> 100k/year with a 50% chance of going to jail for 20 years is only 10k/yr
 831 2013-10-10 15:11:36 <phantomcircuit> something a lot of criminals fail to take into account
 832 2013-10-10 15:11:36 <TD> yes, alright
 833 2013-10-10 15:11:42 <Belxjander> phantomcircuit: 100 -> 5 is divide by 20
 834 2013-10-10 15:11:48 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: read freakonomics on how much drug dealers make... it's very illuminating
 835 2013-10-10 15:11:49 <Belxjander> 100 -> 10 is 10s
 836 2013-10-10 15:11:59 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, like 15k/yr
 837 2013-10-10 15:12:11 <phantomcircuit> Belxjander, 100 / 10 years is 10k
 838 2013-10-10 15:12:15 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yup, minimum wage or less mostly, but with a small chance of big riches
 839 2013-10-10 15:12:36 <TD> ulbricht being a textbook example of this kind of calculation
 840 2013-10-10 15:12:36 <Belxjander> phantomcircuit: but you did say 20 years not 10 years
 841 2013-10-10 15:12:46 <phantomcircuit> Belxjander, read the sentence again
 842 2013-10-10 15:12:55 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, much better odds of getting shot than rich
 843 2013-10-10 15:13:06 <Belxjander> phantomcircuit: well I don't get it then
 844 2013-10-10 15:13:15 <phantomcircuit> most people would make more working at mcdonalds than being a criminal
 845 2013-10-10 15:13:39 <phantomcircuit> Belxjander, 50% change of getting caught means average 10 years spent idle in jail, which means 100k/10 years which means 10k/year
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 847 2013-10-10 15:14:21 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yup, granted, I'll be spending my weekend in a cave that I wound up rescuing someone from last time I was there, so I'm not about to say those dealers are making irrational life choices - excitement and risk are very rewarding to some
 848 2013-10-10 15:14:25 <phantomcircuit> TD, yeah that's more of a textbook example of the insane difficulty that is keeping a huge secret
 849 2013-10-10 15:14:45 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: wouldn't be at all surprised if ulbricht did it partially for the thrill of it
 850 2013-10-10 15:14:51 <phantomcircuit> regardless of how damaging it is
 851 2013-10-10 15:15:08 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, have you seen the video of him talking with someone
 852 2013-10-10 15:15:15 <phantomcircuit> i didn't exactly get that vibe
 853 2013-10-10 15:15:24 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: which video?
 854 2013-10-10 15:15:44 <phantomcircuit> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh68DDUYVPM
 855 2013-10-10 15:15:51 <Ry4an> TD: where the comparison (and I know it was mine originally) breaks down is that email filters (now that no one relays) only hurt the original bad actor (and their organization).  Where'as a BTC collaborative filter means that someone not using the filter can end up with coins they can't spend.
 856 2013-10-10 15:17:01 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: see, I wouldn't read too much into his persona - people who seek thrills are often outwardly very normal, calm people. lots of accountants in caving and rock climbing
 857 2013-10-10 15:17:26 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: (though I'm at work eating lunch and can't actually play the vid)
 858 2013-10-10 15:17:59 <TD> Ry4an: i don't think "block spending of coins" is a reasonable action for someone to take, if they were to see a list hit
 859 2013-10-10 15:18:15 <TD> Ry4an: even with spam filters it's often not "you can't send" but rather "you can send and your mail gets organised into a different folder"
 860 2013-10-10 15:18:29 <MC1984> walter whist at the end "I did it for me"
 861 2013-10-10 15:18:33 <TD> Ry4an: when spam filters do a hard block it's only because they have a very high confidence that the mail is bad.
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 863 2013-10-10 15:18:40 <MC1984> several creepy parallels
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 865 2013-10-10 15:19:46 <TD> Ry4an: a much more reasonable action is to double check who you're dealing with and then just say "hey, today I did a localbitcoins exchange and this warning came up, he said he knew nothing about it, so i asked to see the guys driving license and it said $STUFF. now i have the coins. please remove from the list"
 866 2013-10-10 15:19:51 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 867 2013-10-10 15:19:54 <TD> (most of which can be automated)
 868 2013-10-10 15:19:55 <petertodd> http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/10/09/it-was-dpr/ <- I really liked this blog post, pointing out how unhealthy ulbricht's social isolation was too.
 869 2013-10-10 15:20:03 <Ry4an> TD: I see what you're getting at and I do agree it's probably envitable, but I still land in the more-harm-than-good camp for at least the first few years.
 870 2013-10-10 15:20:34 <TD> i guess it depends on how much it's used. hopefully most people would never have to deal with such a thing, because if it existed and worked, it'd discourage CryptoLocker type guys from even trying
 871 2013-10-10 15:20:53 <TD> but it's hard to say
 872 2013-10-10 15:21:53 <_ingsoc> Can we verify any of his social isolation?
 873 2013-10-10 15:22:00 <TD> spam filtering is painful largely because spam filters have rarely been good enough, so spammers are still really common
 874 2013-10-10 15:22:31 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, i sort of wonder if they actually found him by trawling the internet for similar text
 875 2013-10-10 15:22:41 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, DPR certainly had a unique writing style
 876 2013-10-10 15:22:43 <petertodd> _ingsoc: we can't even verify he was actually behind the silk road yet :P the author is making reasonable assumptions
 877 2013-10-10 15:22:51 <Ry4an> What about the politics example?  Populations are 50/50 split on a lot of things, so getting a goodly number of people to agree coins are tainted because they passed through a distained entity seems easy.
 878 2013-10-10 15:22:53 bbrian has joined
 879 2013-10-10 15:23:01 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: quite possibly; that's why I'm learning russian in secret, oh shit...
 880 2013-10-10 15:23:09 <phantomcircuit> hahah
 881 2013-10-10 15:23:15 <TD> phantomcircuit: i found this analysis to be very interesting: http://shadowlife.cc/2013/10/tracking-the-silk-road-lessons-for-darknet-services/
 882 2013-10-10 15:23:26 <_ingsoc> petertodd: That's fair enough. The authorities probably have enough evidence to link him. Contrary to beliefs around these parts, they don't want to waste their time either.
 883 2013-10-10 15:23:37 <TD> phantomcircuit: it says they most likely found his server by turning an employee with admin access after they did  trade with an undercover agent, and used their home address
 884 2013-10-10 15:23:41 <Ry4an> In the days after the manning-sourced wikileaks dump most americans and most world governments would've called any coins wikileaks had unspendable
 885 2013-10-10 15:23:48 <TD> phantomcircuit: someone discovered that the site was leaking an IP, and mailed the admins about it ....
 886 2013-10-10 15:24:20 <phantomcircuit> TD, it shouldn't even be possible to leak the real ip
 887 2013-10-10 15:24:23 <phantomcircuit> amateur hour
 888 2013-10-10 15:24:30 <Ry4an> bah, gotta run.  Enjoyed this, TD.
 889 2013-10-10 15:24:32 rdymac has joined
 890 2013-10-10 15:24:42 <TD> Ry4an: so wikileaks would have traded with the rest of the world, and when Airbus or ARM or some other big european company turned up with coins used by wikileaks 3 hops ago, I think most American companies would have not given a shit
 891 2013-10-10 15:24:48 <TD> Ry4an: later!
 892 2013-10-10 15:24:54 <phantomcircuit> it took me less than an hour to setup a hidden service in a vm and iptables rules such that it's impossible for the vm to even know what it's real ip is
 893 2013-10-10 15:25:06 <TD> phantomcircuit: well, i've never tried to run a complicated hidden service, so i won't comment on how hard it is. computers are hard. i know that.
 894 2013-10-10 15:25:23 <phantomcircuit> i was pretty sure it was possible and sure enough
 895 2013-10-10 15:25:25 <TD> phantomcircuit: yeah, but now you have to maintain that over a period of years whilst you move around hosts and upgrade capacity, etc
 896 2013-10-10 15:25:37 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I actually did an art project a few years back where I screen-scraped websites with user comments, then presented the comments together with usernames stripped - the viewers seemed to get the impression that the site had a more unique authorship "voice" than the individual users
 897 2013-10-10 15:25:41 <phantomcircuit> TD, well no i dont since im not running a huge drug operation
 898 2013-10-10 15:25:42 <TD> also - limited to hosts that don't/weakly verify your ID, etc
 899 2013-10-10 15:25:42 <phantomcircuit> :)
 900 2013-10-10 15:25:45 <TD> right :)
 901 2013-10-10 15:27:07 <MC1984> Apparently the only source of social validation and ego gratification that Ross had was a group of bitcoin libertarians, drug seekers, drug dealers and undercover cops. This is not a healthy social environment conducive to a balanced state of mental health.
 902 2013-10-10 15:27:11 <MC1984> lol you dont say
 903 2013-10-10 15:27:26 t7 has joined
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 905 2013-10-10 15:27:35 <TD> the guy was a first class idiot. he was talking about finding a girlfriend, wife, etc
 906 2013-10-10 15:27:44 <TD> how would he plan to explain his income to such a woman?
 907 2013-10-10 15:27:45 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: IE, users on slashdot wrote comments that had a "slashdot" feel, and users of, say, reddit had a "reddit" feel, but individual authors were indistinguishable even though I went to some effort to over-represent people to the point where they should have been
 908 2013-10-10 15:27:51 <MC1984> someone is going to take all this analysis and lessons learned from SR and do it again
 909 2013-10-10 15:28:21 <MC1984> not being funyy and ive said this before, but from some of this shit im reading ive seen ebtter opsec from people running private torrent trackers
 910 2013-10-10 15:28:32 <_ingsoc> petertodd: That's actually pretty interesting.
 911 2013-10-10 15:28:42 <petertodd> MC1984: unless they arrest hundreds of people, the silk road will still prove to have been less risky that meatspace drug dealing
 912 2013-10-10 15:28:58 <MC1984> the UK picked up 4 people apparently
 913 2013-10-10 15:29:05 <TD> MC1984: i guess we'll have to see. it depends on what happens next with the existing set of competitors, i think
 914 2013-10-10 15:29:08 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, s/arrest/shoot/
 915 2013-10-10 15:29:12 <MC1984> with our brand new FBI clone agency
 916 2013-10-10 15:29:15 <TD> MC1984: sheep market already faceplanted and leaked its real IP
 917 2013-10-10 15:29:18 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: indeed...
 918 2013-10-10 15:29:36 <petertodd> remind me to leak the IP of my competitors...
 919 2013-10-10 15:29:46 <TD> if the message people take away from this is, "even physics PhDs can't do this and escape detection", i'm not so sure it'll become a huge thing
 920 2013-10-10 15:30:05 <MC1984> anyone think its intereting that the one called atlantis shut shop 1 month before SR
 921 2013-10-10 15:30:11 <MC1984> citing heat
 922 2013-10-10 15:30:26 <TD> dealing on the street at least has very intuitive security properties, even to a meathead
 923 2013-10-10 15:30:41 <petertodd> TD: that's never stopped dealers - the next generation learns from the mistakes of the previous, and culture absorbs the lessons
 924 2013-10-10 15:30:47 execut3 has joined
 925 2013-10-10 15:31:24 <TD> do they learn the lessons so much? other than SR, what was the last major innovation in the black market drugs industry?
 926 2013-10-10 15:31:31 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 927 2013-10-10 15:31:33 <TD> i know they innovate in creating new kinds of chemicals pretty fast
 928 2013-10-10 15:31:41 <TD> but in terms of distribution .... all the good stuff is the latam cartels
 929 2013-10-10 15:31:43 <MC1984> i was kinda seeing eye to eye with taking the violence out of the drug trade thing, before the reports of hits......
 930 2013-10-10 15:31:44 <jgarzik> burner phones   (my cousin is DEA)
 931 2013-10-10 15:31:46 <TD> with their crazy custom submarines and stuff
 932 2013-10-10 15:31:52 <MC1984> also someone said something about human trafficking on the site, fuck that
 933 2013-10-10 15:31:59 <TD> chucking identities is hardly innovation.
 934 2013-10-10 15:32:00 <petertodd> TD: those subs are an excellent example of innovation
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 937 2013-10-10 15:32:31 <TD> yeah but 99.9% of drug dealers aren't doing that
 938 2013-10-10 15:32:35 <MC1984> taking violence out of hte trade, seeing as the authorities do the exact opposite. Either directly themselves or backstopping what goes on in mexico etc
 939 2013-10-10 15:32:37 <TD> they're out on the streets just like they always were
 940 2013-10-10 15:32:46 <jgarzik> That's hard tech.  Think telecomm practices and security.  Lincoln won the civil war through superior telecom tech.
 941 2013-10-10 15:33:00 <petertodd> MC1984: I've personally gone to silk road and atlantis, and I never saw any human trafficking, or frankly, anything other than weapons that made me actually uncomfortable (and weapons are rare)
 942 2013-10-10 15:33:25 <MC1984> thought they banned weapons trade ages ago
 943 2013-10-10 15:33:36 <TD> MC1984: the idea that the drugs trade is violent because of governments is kind of screwball. it'd be much less violent if it were legal and regulated, sure. but i think the state of mexico shows what happens when  drug cartels get too big ..... hardly a flowering market of peaceful transactions
 944 2013-10-10 15:33:46 <TD> jgarzik: he did?
 945 2013-10-10 15:33:50 <petertodd> MC1984: yeah, on silk road, but not on all sites (though the weapons available are more along the lines of stun guns)
 946 2013-10-10 15:33:55 <TD> jgarzik: that's new to me. how did he do that?
 947 2013-10-10 15:34:16 <TD> petertodd: DPR kept that stuff out mostly. i remember when SR was brand new. like the first weeks
 948 2013-10-10 15:34:27 <jgarzik> TD, e.g. http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Lincolns-T-Mails-Abraham-Telegraph/dp/0061129801
 949 2013-10-10 15:34:27 <TD> petertodd: there were adverts for human slavery, nuclear material
 950 2013-10-10 15:34:36 <MC1984> if the US decriminalised and taxed these substances, the cartels market would evaporate overnight
 951 2013-10-10 15:34:37 <TD> truly insane shit got posted there. nobody was sure if it was trolling or for frea
 952 2013-10-10 15:34:40 <TD> *real
 953 2013-10-10 15:34:51 <TD> MC1984: no argument there
 954 2013-10-10 15:34:56 <MC1984> no one wants drugs to be illegal as fuck more than drug kingpins
 955 2013-10-10 15:34:56 <petertodd> TD: yeah, me too, took them some time to learn that they had to clamp down; though I've never seen anything convincing me that anything other than the weapons wasn't just trolling
 956 2013-10-10 15:35:10 <jgarzik> MC1984, not necessarily
 957 2013-10-10 15:35:21 <jgarzik> MC1984, cigarettes are still smuggled, even though they are taxed and legal
 958 2013-10-10 15:35:30 <MC1984> ok fine
 959 2013-10-10 15:35:49 <helo> taxation as a form of prohibition :/
 960 2013-10-10 15:35:55 <TD> jgarzik: why did lincoln have some kind of advantage with telegraph tech? the south didn't know how to build telegraph lines or something?
 961 2013-10-10 15:35:57 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, yeah cause they're taxed like 800%, but how many people do you hear about getting killed over smuggled cigarettes?
 962 2013-10-10 15:36:02 <MC1984> but i cant remembe the last time i heard about a decapitated body hung from an overpass with 50 packs of illegal cigs stuffed up its ass
 963 2013-10-10 15:36:16 <TD> tobacco smuggling is a lot less violent than drug smuggling, that's for sure
 964 2013-10-10 15:36:36 <TD> btw, the Economist ran an online debate on legalising cannabis
 965 2013-10-10 15:36:43 <TD> 92% agreement with legalisation over the entire course of the debate
 966 2013-10-10 15:36:55 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: heh, well... here in ontario the native tribes use speedboats and night-vision goggles to smuggle cigarettes from the states, and yes, the occasional death (but nothing like harder drugs)
 967 2013-10-10 15:36:58 <MC1984> public opinion is clear tbh
 968 2013-10-10 15:37:05 <MC1984> its just a matter of time
 969 2013-10-10 15:37:07 <TD> yeah
 970 2013-10-10 15:37:08 <jgarzik> TD, Lincoln used telegraph to (my language, not theirs) iterate more rapidly.  The north had much better, more complete telegraph comms for whatever reason.  Lincoln received troop reports more quickly and could turn around orders just as quickly.
 971 2013-10-10 15:37:13 <TD> (on cannabis at least)
 972 2013-10-10 15:37:21 <TD> (i don't think the polls are so decisive on other drugs)
 973 2013-10-10 15:37:21 <jgarzik> In prior wars, "orders" and troop movements took eons to coordinate
 974 2013-10-10 15:37:31 <TD> jgarzik: right
 975 2013-10-10 15:37:56 <MC1984> for the more harmful stuff like meth etc, its time to treat it as a public health issue not criminality as such
 976 2013-10-10 15:38:03 <MC1984> the users at least
 977 2013-10-10 15:38:17 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 978 2013-10-10 15:38:33 <TD> that already happens to some extent in switzerland. there are government run heroin clinics (as a trial)
 979 2013-10-10 15:38:46 <TD> apparently bankers turn up in suits before the start of office hours to shoot up, under supervision of doctors
 980 2013-10-10 15:38:57 <MC1984> well switzerland is pretty based in all regards so
 981 2013-10-10 15:39:05 execut3 has joined
 982 2013-10-10 15:39:24 <TD> the biggest reason it's controversial is, i think, the obvious one - people wonder why their tax money is being used to fund heroin habits
 983 2013-10-10 15:39:26 <petertodd> MC1984: addiction is not all it's cracked up to be anyway: turns out people with happy lives don't get addicted to hard drugs anywhere near as much as science used to think, and they're surprisingly able to kick the habit as well.
 984 2013-10-10 15:39:40 <petertodd> MC1984: it's people trying to escape *something* that are vulnerable
 985 2013-10-10 15:39:47 <TD> petertodd: got something i can read on that?
 986 2013-10-10 15:39:55 <MC1984> of course
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 988 2013-10-10 15:40:12 <petertodd> TD: that's from a neuroscience friend of mine, she might be able to dig up papers
 989 2013-10-10 15:40:24 <MC1984> addictive personalities
 990 2013-10-10 15:40:40 bmcgee has joined
 991 2013-10-10 15:40:42 <TD> it's ok. i'll look into it some time myself
 992 2013-10-10 15:41:03 <petertodd> TD: I'm sure it's filtered out into the popular press by now
 993 2013-10-10 15:41:52 <petertodd> anyway, all this stuff leads to bad science because of the pressure on researchers to get politically acceptable results; it's ugly on a lot of levels (and that also makes for bad contrarian research too)
 994 2013-10-10 15:41:56 <TD> MC1984: programs like that are rather delicate and tricky. i learned recently (didn't know before) that back before about 1960 there was a similar program in the UK. but it failed. there was one big key difference
 995 2013-10-10 15:42:17 <TD> MC1984: which was that the people getting govt subsidised drugs were able to take it home and shoot up there. of course, many of them took the drugs and sold them on for profits
 996 2013-10-10 15:42:33 <TD> so it was found to actually be fueling crime by feeding addicts that weren't being treated for whatever reason
 997 2013-10-10 15:42:41 <TD> i think that's why the swiss insist that the drugs are taken on-site
 998 2013-10-10 15:42:50 <MC1984>  petertodd the uk govt fired the entire advisory committe of actual scientists that said hey cannabis shouldnt be class b along with benzos and stuff.....
 999 2013-10-10 15:43:05 <petertodd> MC1984: exactly!
1000 2013-10-10 15:44:41 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1001 2013-10-10 15:44:53 <petertodd> MC1984: not just drugs too - I have a friend who's a pediatric psychiatric nurse, and she says the research on child sex abuse is awful because of the continual pressure to overstate the effects, as well as find "clearly evil" purpetrators like pimps rather than the more ugly fact that it's mostly done by parents (or kids themselves)
1002 2013-10-10 15:45:12 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1003 2013-10-10 15:45:23 <MC1984> blame the papers
1004 2013-10-10 15:46:19 <petertodd> MC1984: poses real problems too: often when young kids are abused they don't really understand it, or see it as wrong, and as they grow up the expectations on them to "be a victim" are far more harmful than the abuse itself :(
1005 2013-10-10 15:47:45 <petertodd> MC1984: meanwhile police pour enormous amounts of money into anti-trafficking teams that don't actually have much work because forced child prostitution is extremely rare (what does happen is usually 100% the kids themselves, which says the money would be much better spent improving social safety nets, group homes etc.)
1006 2013-10-10 15:48:11 <petertodd> MC1984: but people want to catch criminals, not help homeless youth :(
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1013 2013-10-10 15:58:16 <TD> petertodd: the other interesting thing about paedophilia is the evidence that it can be caused by brain tumours
1014 2013-10-10 15:58:55 <TD> petertodd: your neuroscience friend might know about that too
1015 2013-10-10 15:59:44 <petertodd> TD: yes, actually, she did mention that re: violence, like the guy who IIRC shot up a university campus and was found to have a tumour
1016 2013-10-10 16:00:03 <TD> oh, he did?
1017 2013-10-10 16:00:30 <TD> the paper i'm thinking about is about a patient who started obsessively collected child porn
1018 2013-10-10 16:00:35 <petertodd> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
1019 2013-10-10 16:00:49 <petertodd> yeah, I haven't heard about that one, but it doesn't surprise me
1020 2013-10-10 16:00:54 <TD> for years. eventually he got discovered. the day before he was due to go to jail, he checked himself into hospital complaining of migraine
1021 2013-10-10 16:01:07 <TD> they did an MRI and discovered a huge tumour. they operated and his desire to collect CP went away
1022 2013-10-10 16:01:12 <TD> he still had to do the time of course
1023 2013-10-10 16:01:35 <TD> he got out after some years and went back to rejoin his wife. after a while (a decade? i forgot) his wife discovered he'd started collecting the porn again
1024 2013-10-10 16:01:38 <petertodd> the other thing is that far more often than not paedophiles have very "innocent" incentions, in the sense that it's very misdirected love rather than violence
1025 2013-10-10 16:01:47 <TD> went back to hospital, sure enough, the tumour had returned. operated again, the problem went away
1026 2013-10-10 16:01:51 <petertodd> sheesh
1027 2013-10-10 16:02:08 <TD> pretty hard to escape the conclusion that in his case the problem had a medical cause.
1028 2013-10-10 16:02:24 <TD> whether that's true in more cases, hard to say because they tend to end up in jail rather than a hospital
1029 2013-10-10 16:02:31 <petertodd> yeah, like it or not we are what our brains are, and brains are flesh and blood
1030 2013-10-10 16:04:13 <petertodd> anyway, lunch is over, later
1031 2013-10-10 16:07:03 <TD> later
1032 2013-10-10 16:07:06 <t7> anyone know of an up to date manual for box2d
1033 2013-10-10 16:07:13 <t7> the one on the site is wrong
1034 2013-10-10 16:07:15 <t7> ?
1035 2013-10-10 16:08:16 <t7> ah ignore that
1036 2013-10-10 16:08:19 <t7>  icant read
1037 2013-10-10 16:08:30 cdecker has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1038 2013-10-10 16:08:41 roconnor has joined
1039 2013-10-10 16:08:55 <t7> wtf wrong channel
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1053 2013-10-10 16:46:42 <heeventuli> hm, i just got home and my testnet-bitcoin-client, that had been in sync for days, was suddenly about 65k~ blocks behind...has someone else expierenced the same?
1054 2013-10-10 16:48:04 execut3 has joined
1055 2013-10-10 16:49:12 <heeventuli> i restarted the wallet, now i'm in sync again o_O
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1082 2013-10-10 17:32:05 <sphered> hi
1083 2013-10-10 17:33:07 <sphered> im trying to send some money using this " pwalletMain->SendMoneyToDestination(myDest,100000,myTx,true);"   but i want to set the 100000 value to the block value. any ideas
1084 2013-10-10 17:33:59 asuk has joined
1085 2013-10-10 17:34:07 <sphered> im trying to send some money using this " pwalletMain->SendMoneyToDestination(myDest,100000,myTx,true);"   but i want to set the 100000 value to the block value. any ideas
1086 2013-10-10 17:34:24 TD_ has joined
1087 2013-10-10 17:34:40 <sphered> anyone online/
1088 2013-10-10 17:34:41 <sphered> ?
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1106 2013-10-10 18:08:15 <sphered> anyone online?
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1108 2013-10-10 18:08:53 <Ry4an> sure
1109 2013-10-10 18:09:25 <Ry4an> it's an asynchronous medium.  You ask your question and wait.  Someone'll answer.
1110 2013-10-10 18:09:49 <sipa> or not
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1113 2013-10-10 18:10:45 <Ry4an> also that, but the waiting is a required step.
1114 2013-10-10 18:11:04 <gmaxwell> sphered: your question didn't make a lot of sense, and you left far far far too quickly.
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1117 2013-10-10 18:11:14 <sphered> ok i will wait
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1121 2013-10-10 18:13:19 <sphered> so i am trying to send coins in the line  "pwalletMain->SendMoneyToDestination(myDest,100000,myTx,true);" you set the amount you want set. in this case its 100000 but i want to change it to the GetBlockValue in main.cpp when i do this and attempt to compile is get an error telling me the integer is too large. So how can i set the amount to be the value of the block created
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1123 2013-10-10 18:14:09 <sipa> the value of which block?
1124 2013-10-10 18:14:29 <sphered> the value of the block created during the mining process
1125 2013-10-10 18:14:46 <gmaxwell> sphered: you cannot send mined funds for 100 blocks after the block is mined.
1126 2013-10-10 18:15:03 <gmaxwell> if you want mined funds to go to another location, adjust it to mine to that location to begin with.
1127 2013-10-10 18:15:27 <sphered> how ? i need to send 20% of the mined funds to be sent to an address
1128 2013-10-10 18:15:32 <sphered> how can this be done?
1129 2013-10-10 18:15:40 <sipa> oh, you again
1130 2013-10-10 18:15:52 <gmaxwell> to answer the question you asked instead of the one you needed answered CWallet::SendMoneyToDestination takes an int64. Cast your constant.  ... though if I have to tell you this, you should under no circumstances be changing this code.
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1132 2013-10-10 18:16:50 <sphered> in the main.cpp?
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1134 2013-10-10 18:17:31 <sipa> iirc he was creating an altcoin that has some preset payout scheme to him, so he can guarantee a stable value
1135 2013-10-10 18:17:54 <gmaxwell> yea, that guy.
1136 2013-10-10 18:18:15 <sphered> why all the hate?
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1138 2013-10-10 18:18:34 <sipa> no hate; i just think you're wasting your time
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1140 2013-10-10 18:19:25 <sphered> cba ok anyone willing to give any advice on how to do pre-set tax idea? or shall i just go
1141 2013-10-10 18:20:20 <sipa> if you really want that, you shouldn't be changing the payout code (very few actual mining is done inside bitcoin anyway); you should be adding block verification rules that enforce the tax
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1143 2013-10-10 18:21:20 <sphered> okay. how?
1144 2013-10-10 18:21:22 <grau> if you are at that you can replace the POW with a signature of the IRS
1145 2013-10-10 18:21:53 <sipa> i really don't think you should be coding this before you understand what is needed
1146 2013-10-10 18:22:08 <Ry4an> sphered: it would be a significant development understaking.
1147 2013-10-10 18:22:34 <sipa> if you're serious about it, find at least someone who understands the programming language
1148 2013-10-10 18:23:41 <sphered> okay maybe you can help me with this. i have used the frei-coin source code since it already has this feature. i have mofied it to meet my requirments. i have generate the merkle hash but..
1149 2013-10-10 18:24:17 <sphered> when i compile and run again i can't find the genesis block in the debug.log file why?
1150 2013-10-10 18:24:27 <sphered> have i missed a step?
1151 2013-10-10 18:25:56 <sphered> i have not done sha coins before so it is slightly different normally with a litecoin based coin it would be in the debug.log
1152 2013-10-10 18:29:51 <grau> guys here have also not done lots of sha coins yet, their expertise is limited to one. I suggest you look out for a forum of real experts.
1153 2013-10-10 18:30:35 <sphered> thanks. using scrypt coins are super easy. sha is a bit more complex
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1170 2013-10-10 19:33:30 * warren facepalm.
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1175 2013-10-10 19:39:55 <gmaxwell> not sure how best to deal with that, he's N-layers of clueless down. There is basically nothing short of doing it for him that would help him.
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1177 2013-10-10 19:42:27 <warren> gmaxwell: ask to be paid up front
1178 2013-10-10 19:42:46 <gmaxwell> yea, really thats how we should solve the guy, find someone who will do what he wants for a fee.
1179 2013-10-10 19:42:49 ielo has joined
1180 2013-10-10 19:43:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The question is, will anyone step up?
1181 2013-10-10 19:43:27 <warren> or down
1182 2013-10-10 19:44:22 <sipa> i'm sure he'll offer payment in SphereCoins
1183 2013-10-10 19:44:50 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: the question is just the price, not if. There exists some price where lots of people would do it.
1184 2013-10-10 19:45:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I guess.
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1188 2013-10-10 19:50:30 <petertodd> I'd do it, but only for actual money.
1189 2013-10-10 19:50:41 <petertodd> (I'm only saying this for the opportunity to call bitcoins real money)
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1191 2013-10-10 19:50:56 <warren> The ancient version of *coin had genesis creation code remaining it it.  That seems to have enabled a lot of dumb people to get past one hurdle.
1192 2013-10-10 19:51:17 <gmaxwell> warren: there have been ones that just used other coins genesis...
1193 2013-10-10 19:52:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: too bad checkpoints were implemented so early...
1194 2013-10-10 19:52:31 * petertodd should start advertising "genesis services"
1195 2013-10-10 19:52:51 <gmaxwell> petertodd: there have been other coins that bumped into a checkpoint after copying them from another coin.
1196 2013-10-10 19:52:58 <grau> We will see a rise of *coins with difficulty rendering first generation of asics useless for Bitcoin
1197 2013-10-10 19:53:36 <sipa> grau: i fail to parse your sentence
1198 2013-10-10 19:53:44 <gmaxwell> grau: there are already hundreds of them, I'm not sure what a "rise" would mean.
1199 2013-10-10 19:54:07 <grau> I mean that people will commit all used hardware to them
1200 2013-10-10 19:54:10 <gmaxwell> (We will see a rise of *coins) as (difficulty render(s) first generation of asics useless for Bitcoin)
1201 2013-10-10 19:54:24 <sipa> ah!
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1203 2013-10-10 19:54:29 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ah, right, so the checkpoint was there, but the blocks weren't until a month or two later...
1204 2013-10-10 19:54:49 <gmaxwell> grau: that hasn't followed historically, if the old hardware works on the coin then the new hardware will too.. if the coin is more profitable to mine than bitcoin, people will mine it with new hardware too.
1205 2013-10-10 19:55:19 <gmaxwell> grau: the net effect of this in the past is that sudden surges of hashrate when the coin bacame more profitable to mine than bitcoin destroyed it— this is why namecoin invented merged mining, to stop the oscillation.
1206 2013-10-10 19:55:29 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yup.
1207 2013-10-10 19:55:35 <gmaxwell> "Why'd it stop?"
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1210 2013-10-10 19:59:33 <grau> another argument that mining has to be unprofitable. I really like OP https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=305781.0
1211 2013-10-10 19:59:56 <sipa> UNprofitable? :o
1212 2013-10-10 19:59:58 * sipa reads
1213 2013-10-10 20:01:30 <petertodd> grau: "The Bitcoin whitepaper sketches a consensus proof assuming 51% of the mining power is honest." <- bitcoin requires 51% to be economically rational in a specific way, not honest
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1216 2013-10-10 20:02:28 <sipa> petertodd: better discuss that with the author of the post i guess, amiller :)
1217 2013-10-10 20:03:02 * amiller apologizes both in advance and retraoctively
1218 2013-10-10 20:03:18 <sipa> amiller: can you please remain causal?
1219 2013-10-10 20:03:58 <amiller> petertodd, i agree that the point of bitcoin is for most users to be economically rational, not just honest, but there isn't a hint of a proof sketch for that in the whitepaper, nor anywhere else for that matter :o
1220 2013-10-10 20:06:27 <amiller> also, thanks grau <3
1221 2013-10-10 20:06:53 <gmaxwell> Honest is obviously sufficient. It's unclear if economically rational is sufficient, it may be sufficient so long as there is a small base of honest to "fix" the economically rational behavior.
1222 2013-10-10 20:07:23 <gmaxwell> Proofs are kinda worthless since we care about things "outside of the system" too, when we talk about pratical security... and you can't subject the whole universe to your proof. :P
1223 2013-10-10 20:08:36 <gmaxwell> e.g. optimal economically rational users might just go murder all the users that would inhibit their most greedy behavior. ... and so a holistic proof would need to start posing conditionals on how likely someone is to get away with murder. :P
1224 2013-10-10 20:09:10 <amiller> i agree that a model/proof doesn't actually fix anything
1225 2013-10-10 20:09:48 <amiller> on the other hand i think theory is an awesome way to make good progress and get insights on things that can't be directly tested just by banging out a prototype
1226 2013-10-10 20:10:43 <gmaxwell> I am also a fan of theory, but I think that we're already far into diminishing returns on that particular question. MAYBE a theory suggests another pratically interesting question, but its more likely that all of theory is overwhelmed by practice on this stuff.
1227 2013-10-10 20:11:49 <gmaxwell> Besides, I think it's not hard to show that miners do not meet any simple model of economically rational ... or even prospect theory. ... and I've not seen any models which explain the observed behavior beyond "reasoning poorly under ignorance"
1228 2013-10-10 20:12:14 <amiller> now, sure, but we have to extrapolate way into the future to evaluate whether this is a good design
1229 2013-10-10 20:12:32 <amiller> anyway the worst thing about my little theory is that i can't figure out what useful implications it has
1230 2013-10-10 20:12:35 <gmaxwell> maybe, but even then you need to argue why now is a worse model for the future than your theory.
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1232 2013-10-10 20:13:10 <amiller> like if the reward had much less variation would it matter
1233 2013-10-10 20:13:13 <gmaxwell> amiller: it's interesting that we have _multiple_ reasonable looking theories that fail to explain the observed behavior, I suppose.
1234 2013-10-10 20:13:14 <amiller> as long as there's pools then maybe not
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1238 2013-10-10 20:14:58 <gmaxwell> amiller: nah, I don't think you can say that.. I mean, the variation difference bettween very large pools and small ones is ones is small enough that you really can't say people have a preference for the stability... and yet they'll pay several percent to use larger ones.  or even the pps stuff.. paying 10% to remove a couple percent of daily variation is basically unprecedented in business.
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1242 2013-10-10 20:18:15 <grau> People avoid variance by selecting big pools but seek the risk by betting to every new vendor announces a new ASIC. The bet is not on operation variance.
1243 2013-10-10 20:21:59 <grau> Danger is that if there is not enough excitement mining centralizes at a profitability comparable to a utility company.
1244 2013-10-10 20:22:28 <amiller> grau, you'd be interested in my anti-centralization mining puzzle
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1246 2013-10-10 20:23:51 <amiller> suppose that the trend is for hosted mining to threaten centralization
1247 2013-10-10 20:24:10 <amiller> one of the things that makes hosted mining work is that the server can easily show you it's doing work that can only benefit you if it's successful
1248 2013-10-10 20:24:45 <amiller> to prevent hosted mining, what you'd like to do is make it so whoever's actually *doing* the work can *take* the reward after the fact, *without even getting caught*
1249 2013-10-10 20:25:35 <amiller> there's a simpleish way of doing this that's compatible with exactly the current mining operation and not really any overhead
1250 2013-10-10 20:25:59 <amiller> right now, to claim a block reward, you reveal the entire nonce and merkleroot
1251 2013-10-10 20:26:17 <amiller> to prevent hosted mining, the trick is to have an additional *zero knowledge* way of claiming the block reward
1252 2013-10-10 20:26:43 <amiller> you do a zero knowledge proof that you know a nonce and merkleroot such that H(prev, nonce, merkleroot) < target
1253 2013-10-10 20:27:29 <maaku> sipa: any thoughts about keeping old version of the utxo state available?
1254 2013-10-10 20:27:30 <amiller> then you use that nonce as a private key to sign a new merkleroot with potentially a new coinbase transaction etc
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1256 2013-10-10 20:27:52 <maaku> i'm considering leveldb snapshots of the last few blocks
1257 2013-10-10 20:28:15 <maaku> so that synchronization queries may persist across block updates
1258 2013-10-10 20:28:26 <sipa> maaku: that's an option, but it's relatively hard to do currently
1259 2013-10-10 20:28:38 <sipa> as not every block's state is pushed to leveldb
1260 2013-10-10 20:29:57 <maaku> well you wouldn't need to keep every block
1261 2013-10-10 20:30:11 <maaku> i'm assuming cases where it is not is when you sync multiple blocks at once?
1262 2013-10-10 20:30:41 <sipa> depends on what you call "at once"
1263 2013-10-10 20:30:48 <sipa> the utxo state is represented by pcoinsTip
1264 2013-10-10 20:31:03 <sipa> and when its cache size overflows, it's pushed to leveldb
1265 2013-10-10 20:31:24 <maaku> i see
1266 2013-10-10 20:32:04 <sipa> of course, leveldb has its own in-memory representation which is likely much more efficient
1267 2013-10-10 20:32:21 <sipa> however, it stored serialized data, and there is some overhead to serializing and deserializing
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1271 2013-10-10 20:42:52 <grau> amiller: your puzzle restores variance to return, but does not create different games
1272 2013-10-10 20:43:26 <amiller> grau i don't understand? this puzzle isn't about variance, it's just about preventing outsourced mining
1273 2013-10-10 20:43:38 <amiller> it makes it so if you hire someone to mine for you, they can take the reward for themselve, regardless of the variance
1274 2013-10-10 20:43:43 <amiller> and just make it look like you got unlucky
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1277 2013-10-10 20:50:52 <gmaxwell> amiller: of course your pretty idea is undermined by the fact that all such things can already do that and no one cares.
1278 2013-10-10 20:51:06 <gmaxwell> (obviously the answer is that you need to go into the theiving cloud mining business. :( )
1279 2013-10-10 20:52:01 <amiller> if there's a niche for theiving cloud mining, i'm sure someone will fill it soon enough.
1280 2013-10-10 20:52:20 <amiller> i'm happy to work on things for 5+ year out problems or w/e
1281 2013-10-10 20:52:30 <amiller> (or, you know, entirely imaginary problems to amuse myself i guess)
1282 2013-10-10 20:53:01 <gmaxwell> the weird problem is that you can't tell if the theving cloud exists.
1283 2013-10-10 20:53:42 <grau> I did not understand. Mining with already sold equipment is the same game people play now.
1284 2013-10-10 20:54:06 <gmaxwell> grau: well, thats accused, but a lot of the accusations are completely without substance.
1285 2013-10-10 20:54:20 <grau> I did not say a name
1286 2013-10-10 20:54:37 <gmaxwell> and whatever with substance accusations exist, they're lost in the smoke of without substance ones.
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1288 2013-10-10 20:54:45 <grau> I mean it is part of the bet now if your vendor uses the equipment you buy
1289 2013-10-10 20:54:45 <gmaxwell> So a lot of people don't believe that.
1290 2013-10-10 20:54:46 ielo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1291 2013-10-10 20:54:51 <amiller> this is a hosted mining company http://alydian.co/
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1300 2013-10-10 21:06:32 <rdymac> does anyone knows of the other clients which are implementing the payment protocol?
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1375 2013-10-10 23:23:13 <flibbr-dev> Getting a wierd error here, don't know if anyone would have any ideas about it:   bitcoind: table/table_builder.cc:97: void leveldb::TableBuilder::Add(const leveldb::Slice&, const leveldb::Slice&): Assertion `r->options.comparator->Compare(key, Slice(r->last_key)) > 0' failed.
1376 2013-10-10 23:24:11 <sipa> corrupted database :(
1377 2013-10-10 23:24:14 <sipa> run with -reindex
1378 2013-10-10 23:24:35 <flibbr-dev> thanks I am re running with that command now.. 3rd time's a charm. .
1379 2013-10-10 23:25:37 <flibbr-dev> it just belted out 'System error: Database Corrupted' again :( after I run ./bitcoind -reindex  . .  hmm, any ideas ?
1380 2013-10-10 23:25:57 <flibbr-dev> trying again..
1381 2013-10-10 23:26:02 <sipa> what OS, hardware?
1382 2013-10-10 23:26:27 <flibbr-dev> Ubuntu 12.04 . . standard out the box dell inspiron 530 pc
1383 2013-10-10 23:26:39 <sipa> very strange
1384 2013-10-10 23:27:23 <flibbr-dev> it's not making any noises again yet, I'm scared to query getinfo while it's running incase it upsets it.
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