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  94 2013-10-11 02:26:41 <BingoBoingo> How common is it for one bitcoin public key to has to multiple addresses?
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  96 2013-10-11 02:29:35 <Jere_Jones> BingoBoingo: That isn't possible since an address is just a hash of a public key. Explain what happened without trying to troubleshoot it and you may have more luck finding out what really happened.
  97 2013-10-11 02:31:41 <BingoBoingo> I signed a message with an address several weeks ago. I put the signed message in the Brainwallet.org verifier today (someone else actually tried it first). Brainwallet.org verified it to an address other than the one I used to sign the message.
  98 2013-10-11 02:32:18 <Jere_Jones> And Bitcoin-qt verified it to a completely different (third) address.
  99 2013-10-11 02:34:54 <BingoBoingo> Jere_Jones: And mathematics seems broken. Or RipeMD 160 seems to have collisions. Maybe it is the case that this is just karma punishing me for a vanity address with firstbits 1lvcunts. Whatever it is seems dangerous.
 100 2013-10-11 02:36:38 Belxjander has joined
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 102 2013-10-11 02:43:38 <edcba> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251037.0 ?
 103 2013-10-11 02:44:14 <edcba> anyway maths are not broken nor ripemd160
 104 2013-10-11 02:44:54 <edcba> also bugs exist and more likely in brainwallet than in bitcoin
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 116 2013-10-11 02:47:43 <BingoBoingo> edcba: Bitcoin-qt offers a third address that could have validly signed the message.
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 120 2013-10-11 02:51:39 <edcba> ok i read about brainwallet
 121 2013-10-11 02:51:54 <edcba> and if it does generate addresses from passphrases
 122 2013-10-11 02:52:05 <edcba> then maybe you have chosen a weak passphrase
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 124 2013-10-11 02:52:22 <edcba> (if you used brainwallet to generate public key)
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 138 2013-10-11 02:57:51 <BingoBoingo> edcba: The address wasn't generated from brainwallet though. I just tried verifying the signature there.
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 183 2013-10-11 04:05:36 <BingoBoingo> jgarzik: I have a problem with bitcoin address message signing.
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 186 2013-10-11 04:11:02 <jgarzik> BingoBoingo, what is the problem?   bitcoin version and OS/platform version?
 187 2013-10-11 04:14:29 <BingoBoingo> Address generated with vanitygenocl on Ubuntu 12.04 LTS. Brainwallet.org and Bitcoin-QT's verify signed message functions both verify signed messages to differing addresses than the one I've had imported to Multibit for quite some time.
 188 2013-10-11 04:16:04 <jgarzik> BingoBoingo, there are two bitcoin addresses for each private key, because there can be two public key datastreams: a compressed public key, and an uncompressed public key, each with their own pubkeyhash
 189 2013-10-11 04:16:04 <gmaxwell> BingoBoingo: what agrees with what?
 190 2013-10-11 04:16:42 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: kinda, except a correctly encoded private key indicates which should be used.
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 192 2013-10-11 04:16:51 <jgarzik> BingoBoingo, This is most likely a mismatch between multi bit wanting uncompressed and bitcoin-qt wanting compressed
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 194 2013-10-11 04:17:04 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I doubt vanitygen and its ilk do that
 195 2013-10-11 04:17:09 <BingoBoingo> Original vanitygen'd address was 1LvCuntsJyFFQsLuJhBXBPokbQa7SAyMr4 Brainwallet.org verifies the struck though signature http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/contact-and-credentials/ to the address 1LC9GzYK1zjrG9zAvMPExcwHTP8aPYPMyY a third result was apparently returned by verifying the signature in Bitcoin-QT but I don't have the patience for that.
 196 2013-10-11 04:17:23 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: they do. (the format makes it impossible not to)
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 199 2013-10-11 04:19:49 <gmaxwell> BingoBoingo: your message is >254 characters long, a _lot_ of tools create corrupted signatures in that case.
 200 2013-10-11 04:20:11 <gmaxwell> BingoBoingo: can you try signing something short like "test"
 201 2013-10-11 04:20:26 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 202 2013-10-11 04:20:38 <gmaxwell> if bitcoin-qt and multibit agree then (I'll test bitcoin-qt for you) then multibit is buggy.
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 208 2013-10-11 04:24:13 <BingoBoingo> gmaxwell: I can verify Multibit 0.5.11 reports the message as valid from 1LvCuntsJyFFQsLuJhBXBPokbQa7SAyMr4, but other tools that don't request the address have suggested at least two other messages so far when the message in question is "I may often be found on CoinChat using the nick BingoBoingo and on bitcointalk.org as Atruk. I use the bitcoin address 1LvCuntsJyFFQsLuJhBXBPokbQa7SAyMr4 as a message signing address. It
 209 2013-10-11 04:24:14 <BingoBoingo> isn’t my oldest address or my only address, but it does have a history of transactions visible on Blockchain.info going back to March 14th, 2013 and has been mentioned by my screennames at various points."
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 213 2013-10-11 04:29:46 <BingoBoingo> Maybe address signed messages should have something roughly equivalent to the armoured ascii format? I've seen jgarzik had threads on Reddit about using address signatures as an alternative to password logins for websites, but maybe this shit should be at least equal to GPG first?
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 216 2013-10-11 04:32:35 <BingoBoingo> I mean not having a container like gpg's armoured ascii was reasonable. When nobody can sign messages the same way from different clients this shit looks ridiculous.
 217 2013-10-11 04:33:22 <gmaxwell> BingoBoingo: no amount of container stuff has ANYTHING to do with software which is just implemented _wrong_.
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 219 2013-10-11 04:33:47 <gmaxwell> BingoBoingo: if you're not going to conduct the simple test I suggested then you might as well leave the channel.
 220 2013-10-11 04:39:02 <dexX7> what test did you suggest?
 221 2013-10-11 04:39:40 <BingoBoingo> gmaxwell: Bitcoin-qt/bitcoind and Multibit report different addresses. Brainwallet.org presents a third (though I tested it second and chronologically its deviance is second). This is honestly weird an worrisome. I know Address signed messages have quirks after some ~250 characters, but I am disturbed different clients would assume different addresses for the same public key.
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 225 2013-10-11 04:41:49 <BingoBoingo> I'd try this in Electrum as well, but they seem to have buried their message signing and verification functions.
 226 2013-10-11 04:41:49 <gmaxwell> oh he left before I could kick him for not running my @##$@ test.
 227 2013-10-11 04:41:53 <gmaxwell> there.
 228 2013-10-11 04:42:12 <gmaxwell> oh he didn't.
 229 2013-10-11 04:42:59 <gmaxwell> dexX7: I asked him to sign a short string like "test" to see if multibit has broken varint coding.
 230 2013-10-11 04:43:02 BenderCoin has joined
 231 2013-10-11 04:43:40 <dexX7> did you see this thread? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=309179.msg3317290#msg3317290
 232 2013-10-11 04:43:53 <TheLordOfTime> gmaxwell, kickban a habit click for you?  (purely curious hence the question)
 233 2013-10-11 04:44:09 <TheLordOfTime> (especially because banned, kicked, unbanned)
 234 2013-10-11 04:44:54 <gmaxwell> TheLordOfTime: It just prevents the instant rejoin many clients have.
 235 2013-10-11 04:45:10 <gmaxwell> kick alone isn't even noticed by users sometimes.
 236 2013-10-11 04:45:18 <gmaxwell> esp in channels with high join/part rates.
 237 2013-10-11 04:45:36 <TheLordOfTime> gmaxwell, remove works too
 238 2013-10-11 04:45:53 <TheLordOfTime> and actually breaks most autorejoins
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 242 2013-10-11 04:50:12 <gmaxwell> BingoBoingo: Have you performed the test I asked for yet?
 243 2013-10-11 04:51:00 <gmaxwell> For your reference Bitcoin-qt does not "present a third", as it does display any address at all, it prompts you to provide an address.
 244 2013-10-11 04:51:47 <dexX7> <BingoBoingo> dexX7: THe signature for "test" is Gwn1aQana5m/0k0UvrMyrDHroyFfcJVVBovdKjB97rrsxr9yc0vQD+2PHIE1KK6Tq01bLAJ5tUkRY0v8R683Mg8= << if that's the answer for your test
 245 2013-10-11 04:51:52 <gmaxwell> Every validatly encoded signature is a signature for _some_ address. The fact that you can get an address out of a broken implementation that tells you the address rather than asking for one is itself not concerning.
 246 2013-10-11 04:52:57 <dexX7> the problem is solely this special char + more than 249 other (normal) chars, everything else works as expected
 247 2013-10-11 04:53:20 <gmaxwell> bitcoind verifymessage 1LvCuntsJyFFQsLuJhBXBPokbQa7SAyMr4 'Gwn1aQana5m/0k0UvrMyrDHroyFfcJVVBovdKjB97rrsxr9yc0vQD+2PHIE1KK6Tq01bLAJ5tUkRY0v8R683Mg8=' 'test'
 248 2013-10-11 04:53:26 <dexX7> correct
 249 2013-10-11 04:53:30 <gmaxwell> dexX7: why to you say any "special" character is required.
 250 2013-10-11 04:53:55 <dexX7> i don't know. but that's the case when this strange behaviour appears.
 251 2013-10-11 04:54:05 <gmaxwell> dexX7: I doubt it.
 252 2013-10-11 04:54:24 <dexX7> please take a look at this thread to reproduce it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=309179.msg3317290#msg3317290
 253 2013-10-11 04:54:40 <dexX7> i
 254 2013-10-11 04:54:45 <dexX7> i'm here, because i'm curious :)
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 256 2013-10-11 04:55:12 <gmaxwell> I see the brainwallet code is simply wrong, it's not encoding a varint at all: https://github.com/brainwallet/brainwallet.github.com/blob/master/js/bitcoinsig.js#L11
 257 2013-10-11 04:57:16 <dexX7> isn't that what msg_bytes(message) does?
 258 2013-10-11 04:58:04 <dexX7> i have no idea, but if you can say "that's the source", well.. then that's it.
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 260 2013-10-11 04:59:20 <gmaxwell> I don't know how to link the the right thing, grr github.
 261 2013-10-11 04:59:27 <gmaxwell> In any case, the byte order is swapped.
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 322 2013-10-11 07:07:49 <Luke-Jr> hmm, seems if you suspend bitcoind for a few minutes and come back up with a new IP, it never recovers blockchain sync (fully synced prior to suspend) O.o
 323 2013-10-11 07:07:58 <Luke-Jr> all the blocks coming in are being marked orphan
 324 2013-10-11 07:08:05 <Luke-Jr> and it never tries to resolve it
 325 2013-10-11 07:09:38 <gmaxwell> hm? I've never seen it do that and I suspect my bitcoind twice a day for my ~10 minute trip to and from the office. What version?
 326 2013-10-11 07:09:44 <gmaxwell> s/suspect/suspend/ :P
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 328 2013-10-11 07:09:56 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
 329 2013-10-11 07:09:57 <gribble> 262893
 330 2013-10-11 07:11:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: 0.8.4
 331 2013-10-11 07:12:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I SIGSTOP'd it to shut debug.log up, did a live migration on the server to a new datacenter, and SIGCONT'd
 332 2013-10-11 07:12:23 <Luke-Jr>     "blocks" : 262873,
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 334 2013-10-11 07:13:53 <Luke-Jr> (this is #bitcoin-watch's node fwiw)
 335 2013-10-11 07:14:38 grau_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 336 2013-10-11 07:14:39 <Luke-Jr> just started syncing again
 337 2013-10-11 07:15:44 <gmaxwell> on its own?
 338 2013-10-11 07:16:01 <Luke-Jr> unless someone here connected to it and pushed the block
 339 2013-10-11 07:16:32 <Luke-Jr> but I didn't post the IP either, so that's probably not likely
 340 2013-10-11 07:18:49 <gmaxwell> okay, well, that behavior I can't confirm or deny, its possible that my laptop sometimes gets stuck for a bit after a suspend/resume cycle— I wouldn't notice that.
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 428 2013-10-11 10:46:29 <jouke> when a transaction is made before the client is fully synced (so not transmitted to the network), is it possible to let bitcoin-qt forget about that transaction?
 429 2013-10-11 10:50:25 <michagogo> jouke: Yes
 430 2013-10-11 10:50:30 <michagogo> Oh, except...
 431 2013-10-11 10:50:38 <michagogo> It *does* get breadcast to the network
 432 2013-10-11 10:50:51 <michagogo> (it also gets broadcast)
 433 2013-10-11 10:51:12 <sipa> there is no way afaik to remove wallet transactions
 434 2013-10-11 10:51:22 <michagogo> Well, there are 2 ways
 435 2013-10-11 10:51:26 <sipa> unless they are coinbases that get reverted
 436 2013-10-11 10:51:47 <michagogo> One is to edit the wallet
 437 2013-10-11 10:52:08 <michagogo> either with pywallet, or with db_dump or whatever it's called
 438 2013-10-11 10:52:31 <sipa> yeah sure, that works
 439 2013-10-11 10:52:52 <michagogo> The other, which is easier but will forget all unconfirmed transactions, address labels, and transaction timestamps, is salvagewallet
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 454 2013-10-11 11:20:41 <jouke> michagogo: thanks.
 455 2013-10-11 11:21:38 <michagogo> np
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 475 2013-10-11 11:46:53 <melvster> FYI: i posted about the vocab I was talking about yesterday, there's no changes needed from the dev team, only something extra for those working on the intersection of bitcion and the semantic web ...
 476 2013-10-11 11:47:40 <melvster> hopefully can help bitcoin to a wider audience
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 479 2013-10-11 11:50:48 <michagogo> Why was alert 1033 set to expire after a day?
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 521 2013-10-11 13:23:13 <jgarzik> mornin'
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 527 2013-10-11 13:33:29 <michagogo> jgarzik: o/
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 649 2013-10-11 17:24:37 <pierce> a question someone asked me recently that I wasn't able to answer : what is stopping an attacker from starting when the difficulty was much lower, and creating a super long blockchain, and have it overtake the existing blockchain?
 650 2013-10-11 17:25:32 <pierce> like, assuming they have a client modified to think time is moving super fast, so they could crank out blocks quickly without increasing the difficulty
 651 2013-10-11 17:26:01 <pierce> is there some limit on how far the blockchain will rewind?
 652 2013-10-11 17:29:28 <sipa> it's the total work on a chain that counts
 653 2013-10-11 17:29:29 <pierce> a sneaky attacker could even emulate all the old transactions, so everyone would have the same amount of coins, except for a select few untouched mined blocks which would go to the attacker
 654 2013-10-11 17:29:31 <sipa> not its length
 655 2013-10-11 17:29:53 <pierce> sipa: ah, interesting, so difficulty*lengh essentially?
 656 2013-10-11 17:29:55 <sipa> you'd need to redo all the work that went into building the current chain
 657 2013-10-11 17:29:57 <sipa> yes
 658 2013-10-11 17:30:24 <sipa> well, sum(block.difficulty, block in blocks)
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 661 2013-10-11 17:31:42 <pierce> makes sense.  I had always been under the impression that it was length, which is almost always the same thing, except in the scenario I proposed
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 663 2013-10-11 17:32:21 <gmaxwell> pierce: it's not the same in any other forking situation right around a retargeting either.
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 665 2013-10-11 17:32:59 <pierce> gmaxwell: for sure, but at least it's going to be pretty darn close
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 668 2013-10-11 17:42:28 <skinnkavaj> https://blockchain.info/
 669 2013-10-11 17:42:44 <skinnkavaj> Block 262974 was found 12 minutes ago
 670 2013-10-11 17:42:50 <skinnkavaj> while block 262975 was found 14 minutes ago
 671 2013-10-11 17:42:58 <skinnkavaj> what is wrong?
 672 2013-10-11 17:43:51 <helo> blockchain.info
 673 2013-10-11 17:44:00 <TheLordOfTime> what helo said
 674 2013-10-11 17:44:31 <helo> i saw them the same second on my node ^^
 675 2013-10-11 17:45:18 <sipa> saw what?
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 677 2013-10-11 17:46:08 <TheLordOfTime> sipa: block 262974 and 262975
 678 2013-10-11 17:46:15 <TheLordOfTime> blockchain.info displays the found times wrong :p
 679 2013-10-11 17:46:36 <TheLordOfTime> sipa: (see skinnkavaj's messages a little further up the screen)
 680 2013-10-11 17:46:36 <sipa> ok?
 681 2013-10-11 17:46:45 <helo> height=262974  log2_work=72.658804  tx=25227928  date=2013-10-11 17:28:39
 682 2013-10-11 17:46:45 <helo> height=262975  log2_work=72.658961  tx=25228170  date=2013-10-11 17:26:42
 683 2013-10-11 17:46:48 <TheLordOfTime> (that was to answer you is all :) )
 684 2013-10-11 17:46:55 <helo> so the timestamps were out of order :)
 685 2013-10-11 17:46:56 <TheLordOfTime> *goes back to poking nginx with a stick*
 686 2013-10-11 17:47:19 <helo> blockchain.info orders by timestamp instead of height :/
 687 2013-10-11 17:47:33 <sipa> :o
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 810 2013-10-11 22:35:10 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell
 811 2013-10-11 22:35:18 <skinnkavaj> any idea when block will be produced more stable?
 812 2013-10-11 22:35:37 <skinnkavaj> everytime i send some bitcoins and need it fast i have always so unlucky to be in a time when it takes like 50 minutes
 813 2013-10-11 22:36:19 <skinnkavaj> right now litecoin is better in this way because of blocks is produced more stable aka every 2 minutes.
 814 2013-10-11 22:37:01 <skinnkavaj> i know you have to wait 10 min for litecoin to be as secure, but bitcoin blocks is so unstable thats what annoys m
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 818 2013-10-11 22:39:51 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: Are you confusing 6 confirmations with a single block? In any case it won't ever be any more "stable" the instability is essential for the network to be convergent, otherwise forks that tie would forever stay split.
 819 2013-10-11 22:40:18 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: but before asic appered
 820 2013-10-11 22:40:26 <skinnkavaj> didnt blocks get solved in 10 minutes more likely?
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 822 2013-10-11 22:40:59 <gmaxwell> TD: In bitcoinj why is the varint encode function called encodeBE?  (VarInt.java)
 823 2013-10-11 22:41:11 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: I've seen no suggestion that the variance has increased in recent times.
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 825 2013-10-11 22:42:05 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: I have read about it several times in forums that after a while when we have had asic, time for blocks will be 10 minutes more likely.
 826 2013-10-11 22:42:06 <gmaxwell> If it has, then it could only be because there is more consolodation in pools and miners now, so outages have a bigger impact. .. but I've not seen anything to suggest that we're seeing that.
 827 2013-10-11 22:42:39 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: Also, i sent this transaction https://blockchain.info/address/1LH14TGeCaA3wzUiTGs6QQJJFBDT2LdKSv before any new block was solved.. but then asicminer mines a block with only 27 transactions, why didnt include mine?
 828 2013-10-11 22:42:43 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: you're reading about stuff that is saying that the time will go _UP_ to 10 minutes, the average is below 10 minutes now due to hashrate growth.
 829 2013-10-11 22:43:49 <gmaxwell> I think asicminer only includes their own transactions or something like that. They include very few.
 830 2013-10-11 22:43:53 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: Yeah right it goes faster.. you are right about that, but that dont annoy me.. the thing that annoy me is that somestimes it is 1 minute, another time it is 50 minutes.. and i always manage to send transactions when next block takes 50 minutes... :p
 831 2013-10-11 22:44:01 <skinnkavaj> wtf?
 832 2013-10-11 22:44:08 <skinnkavaj> why?
 833 2013-10-11 22:44:15 <skinnkavaj> should that be allowed?
 834 2013-10-11 22:44:20 <skinnkavaj> what if everyone did that..
 835 2013-10-11 22:44:39 <skinnkavaj> and why does asicminer do it, they miss out on fee profits.
 836 2013-10-11 22:45:08 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: It can't be prevented.
 837 2013-10-11 22:45:25 <gmaxwell> Don't ask me— but you can observe it for yourself.
 838 2013-10-11 22:45:37 <skinnkavaj> here i am waiting for a transaction to confirm
 839 2013-10-11 22:45:45 <skinnkavaj> and then asicminer doesnt want to transfer my money
 840 2013-10-11 22:46:06 <skinnkavaj> oh wait
 841 2013-10-11 22:46:09 <skinnkavaj> look now gmaxwell
 842 2013-10-11 22:46:12 <skinnkavaj> they solved another block
 843 2013-10-11 22:46:12 <gmaxwell> I'd say that they take ones with high enough fees, except they mine some rather large no-fee transactions too... ::shrugs::
 844 2013-10-11 22:46:18 <skinnkavaj> and included 586 transcations
 845 2013-10-11 22:46:24 <skinnkavaj> see blockchain.info now
 846 2013-10-11 22:46:32 <gmaxwell> that one has a lot of transactions, thats unusual for them.
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 848 2013-10-11 22:47:35 <gmaxwell> in their last 5 blocks before that one none have more than 100 transactions.
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 851 2013-10-11 22:47:57 <gmaxwell> maybe they have multiple bitcoinds and one is set to not include transactions. ::shrugs::
 852 2013-10-11 22:48:25 <MC1984> surely they can spit out a full solved block fast enough to just be good guys and process what they can
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 854 2013-10-11 22:49:12 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell my windows 8 crashed (great microsoft)... what did you write?
 855 2013-10-11 22:49:45 <gmaxwell> 15:44 <@gmaxwell> that one has a lot of transactions, thats unusual for them.
 856 2013-10-11 22:49:49 <gmaxwell> 15:45 <@gmaxwell> in their last 5 blocks before that one none have more than 100 transactions.
 857 2013-10-11 22:49:52 <gmaxwell> 15:46 <@gmaxwell> maybe they have multiple bitcoinds and one is set to not include transactions. ::shrugs::
 858 2013-10-11 22:50:43 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: i have always liked asicminer, seems like a well run company by a nice guy... if they dont include transactiions that makes me upset, i dont understand why either.. makes no sense
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 860 2013-10-11 22:54:09 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: lots of transactions increases orphaning rate.
 861 2013-10-11 22:54:11 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: another thing that was asked in a "We are the litcoin team AMA" @ reddit, would it be possible to make bitcoin proof of stake + proof of work?
 862 2013-10-11 22:54:14 <gmaxwell> So there is a tradeoff.
 863 2013-10-11 22:54:46 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: i have never understood why a block gets orphaned, care to explain?
 864 2013-10-11 22:55:41 <gmaxwell> generally proof of stake as proposed appears unworkable. It misses the fundimental point of mining which is to put at stake a finite resource (energy) which you lose if you bet it on a consensus which doesn't win.  All PoS systems I've seen have the problem that nothing is at stake.. you can mine in a PoS fork for free, and if that fork loses, no biggie you still have your stake in all other forks.
 865 2013-10-11 22:56:02 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: because it takes time to forward blocks, because the speed of light and data transmission is finite.. and in that time someone else can find a block.
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 868 2013-10-11 22:58:32 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: isn't that a good reason to have both proof of stake + proof of work? one improves the other one.
 869 2013-10-11 22:59:19 <gmaxwell> That isn't clear to me but I've not seen any really good proposals of it, most of them look like they'd just create big centeralization incentives. e.g. you can't participate at all except by joining in some mega pool that holds a lot of stake
 870 2013-10-11 22:59:59 <gmaxwell> I have an alternative proposal which is soft forking compatible with bitcoin, and is a much smaller change, but it won't do anything useful until most mining is for fees.
 871 2013-10-11 23:01:02 <gmaxwell> Which is to include a 32 bit blockhash in every transaction, and a miner can only collect the fee for that transaction if they are extending a chain which is consistent with that hash. That lets all transacting bitcoin users 'vote with their fees' for the identity of the chain they like.
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 873 2013-10-11 23:02:00 <gmaxwell> but the consensus there is still proof of work. It just means a malicious deep rewriter can't collect many/any fees.
 874 2013-10-11 23:02:46 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: sounds like a good idea but when there is only fees rewarding the miners this "problem" will be solved already
 875 2013-10-11 23:03:04 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: uh? why do you say that?
 876 2013-10-11 23:03:29 <gmaxwell> oh you mean miners not including transactions.
 877 2013-10-11 23:03:57 <gmaxwell> POS wouldn't help with that in the first place.
 878 2013-10-11 23:04:49 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: are you a pool operator?
 879 2013-10-11 23:04:56 <skinnkavaj> or have you been?
 880 2013-10-11 23:05:49 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: Why do you ask?
 881 2013-10-11 23:05:56 <skinnkavaj> your speciality is mining so i guess so
 882 2013-10-11 23:06:05 <gmaxwell> It is? :P
 883 2013-10-11 23:06:14 <skinnkavaj> yeah
 884 2013-10-11 23:06:39 <gmaxwell> I think its more generally the case that I'm a fucking know it all who thinks hes a specialist at everything.
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 886 2013-10-11 23:07:21 <gmaxwell> In any case I have never run a public pool, though I've helped with some of them. (and I've been a fairly large solo miner, with >1% of the network hashrate at points)
 887 2013-10-11 23:07:26 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: is there something that you would like to test on litecoin?
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 889 2013-10-11 23:07:31 <skinnkavaj> anything?
 890 2013-10-11 23:08:09 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: i dont understand why you are not a pool operator, seems like you were born to be one.
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 892 2013-10-11 23:08:12 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: I've already told warren what I'd want tested there.
 893 2013-10-11 23:08:28 <gmaxwell> The legalities of operating a pool are unclear.
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 895 2013-10-11 23:08:50 <sipa> skinnkavaj: what you just said sounds a lot like "You seem to know a lot about blood. You should be a doctor."
 896 2013-10-11 23:08:53 <gmaxwell> (which was the initial motivation behind eligius having the coinbaser payments, fwiw)
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 898 2013-10-11 23:09:49 <gmaxwell> I also don't believe centeralized pools should exist.
 899 2013-10-11 23:10:11 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: but they do is it a problem?
 900 2013-10-11 23:11:06 <skinnkavaj> and what would you like to have tested on litecoin? please tell. warren is really cool, he teached me to use GPG and i dont know even know the guy before he got into development.
 901 2013-10-11 23:11:12 <gmaxwell> Well, "problem" is hard to define. Right now the security assumptions of bitcoin have clearly been undermined by the existance of very large pools, but it hasn't seemed to have many pratical consequences.
 902 2013-10-11 23:12:27 <gmaxwell> Right now you could coerce two or three guys and then successfully reverse transactions a dozen blocks deep. This is clearly not how bitcoin was intended to work. But the motivations for doing so are apparently few and far between.
 903 2013-10-11 23:12:39 <gmaxwell> Fortunately security tends to work better in practice than in theory.
 904 2013-10-11 23:12:41 <skinnkavaj> sipa: just like you are born to organize statics
 905 2013-10-11 23:12:56 <sipa> statics? :o
 906 2013-10-11 23:13:01 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: you do realize the at this point sipa has written most of bitcoind right?
 907 2013-10-11 23:13:10 <gmaxwell> And you credit him for being a hashrate bookie? :P
 908 2013-10-11 23:13:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: don't exaggerate :)
 909 2013-10-11 23:14:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: I thought we looked at it before and it was close? I'm interpolating not exaggerating. :P
 910 2013-10-11 23:14:25 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: please tell me what bitcoind is, isn't that the software satoshi developed?
 911 2013-10-11 23:14:49 <skinnkavaj> what is the difference between bitcoin and bitcoind?
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 913 2013-10-11 23:15:03 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: I was saying bitcoind there in order to exclude the gui.
 914 2013-10-11 23:15:07 <sipa> bitcoin is a currency, a system, a network, a protocol
 915 2013-10-11 23:15:14 <gmaxwell> (and the currency, netowkr, etc.)
 916 2013-10-11 23:15:22 <sipa> bitcoind is the reference client binary name, without the gui
 917 2013-10-11 23:15:29 <sipa> bitcoin-qt is the reference client binary name, with the gui
 918 2013-10-11 23:15:50 <skinnkavaj> so bitcoind didnt exist 2008 when satoshi realsed bitcoin?
 919 2013-10-11 23:16:18 <sipa> the actual answer to your question is "indeed not", for multiple reasons
 920 2013-10-11 23:16:32 <sipa> but for all intents and purposes, the answer you want is likely "yes it did"
 921 2013-10-11 23:16:33 AndChat has joined
 922 2013-10-11 23:16:51 <sipa> satoshi release bitcoin (a windows-only, gui-only, wx-based) tool in early 2009
 923 2013-10-11 23:17:13 <sipa> bitcoind was later added, as a new binary built from the same source code, after removing the GUI
 924 2013-10-11 23:17:31 <sipa> when wx was replaced by qt as GUI tooltik, the name of the program changed to bitcoin-qt
 925 2013-10-11 23:18:04 <sipa> but what gmaxwell was referring to (i don't think it's true), is that for the core code of the reference client, i by now have (re)written most of its code
 926 2013-10-11 23:18:14 <MC1984> was it really windows only at the start? damn
 927 2013-10-11 23:18:40 <skinnkavaj> do you think satoshi is overrated or is he a genius? because some people say he is brillant and some people say it was just crap when bitcoin was released.. and the fact that is was windows only
 928 2013-10-11 23:18:51 <gmaxwell> (for i in *.cpp ; do git blame $i ; done) | cut -d'(' -f2 | cut -d' ' -f1 | tr '[:upper:]' '[:lower:]' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n | awk '{aa+=$1; print $0} END {print aa}'    ... well it's 31% but it's more than the next two people combined.
 929 2013-10-11 23:19:13 <gmaxwell> and close to the next three people combined.
 930 2013-10-11 23:19:20 <sipa> moving other people's code around helps :D
 931 2013-10-11 23:19:27 <gmaxwell> Indeed. :P
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 933 2013-10-11 23:19:45 <MC1984> satoshi had vision, but he did put together a lot of stuff otehr people had come up with
 934 2013-10-11 23:19:51 <MC1984> he didnt invent it all
 935 2013-10-11 23:20:11 <MC1984> some of the concepts in bitcoin were decades old i think
 936 2013-10-11 23:20:48 <sipa> the overal design is genius imho, even if he didn't foresee some of the economics that appeared later (pooled mining, ...)
 937 2013-10-11 23:20:58 <skinnkavaj> soon fbi raid satoshis home in japan because they found out an email adress "hey look at this cool program bitcoin" and another "wanna create a new currency? my private mail is satoshi@
 938 2013-10-11 23:21:03 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: I don't know why you'd single out windows only there. Bitcoin was so many novel things at once, I don't think you could have asked it to be much more... and while it was initially windows only, the software was at least portable (unlike virtually all other windows only software)
 939 2013-10-11 23:21:06 <sipa> and he is also clearly a very good programmer, though not really a good software designer
 940 2013-10-11 23:21:25 <sipa> and the coding style was ancient :)
 941 2013-10-11 23:22:11 <gmaxwell> well, it was pre-RAII style, but it was way more modern than it would have been if I'd written it.
 942 2013-10-11 23:22:13 <MC1984> how much can you really tell of a person from the code they write
 943 2013-10-11 23:22:14 <gmaxwell> :P
 944 2013-10-11 23:22:46 <skinnkavaj> you can tell gmaxwell was destined to become a pool operator but decided to help other instead
 945 2013-10-11 23:22:58 <gmaxwell> I mean, ... it didn't write its own string class so even in C++ terms it wasn't _that_ ancient. :)
 946 2013-10-11 23:22:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: not sure you'd come up with a main.cpp that did all validation logic, all mining, all wallet management, and did direct calls to the GUI :p
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 948 2013-10-11 23:23:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: eh, it wasn't that portable from what I can tell :P
 949 2013-10-11 23:23:59 <skinnkavaj> sipa: everyone here say blockchain.info sucks, you with all your statics, cant you setup a better alternative?
 950 2013-10-11 23:24:01 <gmaxwell> Well. okay. Yea I wouldn't have done that, though I also wouldn't have done it the way I'd do it now. (I'd make validation logic standalone, a seperate library, and formally verify as much of it as possible)
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 952 2013-10-11 23:24:18 <sipa> skinnkavaj: dude
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 954 2013-10-11 23:24:35 <sipa> skinnkavaj: i wrote some perl scripts to generate some graphs 2 years ago
 955 2013-10-11 23:24:40 <sipa> and the site is still running
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 957 2013-10-11 23:24:52 <skinnkavaj> sipa: exactly how hard was it for you :D
 958 2013-10-11 23:24:58 <skinnkavaj> you get my point
 959 2013-10-11 23:25:00 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: it shouldn't be a website at all :P
 960 2013-10-11 23:25:05 <Luke-Jr> should be built into Bitcoin-Qt
 961 2013-10-11 23:25:07 <sipa> ok, some of the math to compute it efficiently was interesting
 962 2013-10-11 23:25:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: no no, but you have the power of THE CALCULUS.  :P
 963 2013-10-11 23:25:53 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: that would be so cool! i would be like "hey check out this statics software" of the bitcoin program.. now i don even want that slow program on my computer because it doesnt have any cool functions.. no offense.
 964 2013-10-11 23:26:44 <sipa> but i've probably spent like 100 times more work on the client's code than on that website :)
 965 2013-10-11 23:27:07 <skinnkavaj> bitcoin program on windows is really ugly
 966 2013-10-11 23:27:23 <skinnkavaj> and no cool functions like statics
 967 2013-10-11 23:27:29 <sipa> (statistics, you mean?)
 968 2013-10-11 23:27:39 <sipa> i don't care about the GUI, tbh
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 970 2013-10-11 23:27:41 <skinnkavaj> oh yes lol sorry
 971 2013-10-11 23:27:54 <skinnkavaj> sipa: ofc you dont care about the GUI
 972 2013-10-11 23:27:56 <skinnkavaj> no nerd does
 973 2013-10-11 23:28:02 <sipa> hahaha
 974 2013-10-11 23:28:04 <skinnkavaj> but the averge joe does
 975 2013-10-11 23:28:13 <skinnkavaj> the truth:)
 976 2013-10-11 23:28:15 <sipa> sure
 977 2013-10-11 23:28:45 <skinnkavaj> maybe the average joe doesnt have to touch bitcoin, but isnt it good for network propogation?
 978 2013-10-11 23:28:54 <skinnkavaj> isnt it good to just run the program?
 979 2013-10-11 23:29:00 <skinnkavaj> even if you dont mine bro.
 980 2013-10-11 23:29:15 * sipa doesn't mine bro
 981 2013-10-11 23:30:10 <gmaxwell> Anyone going to be at linuxcon europe / linux kernel summit in a couple weeks in Edinburgh?  I'm speaking (not about bitcoin stuff) at the gstreamer summit there.
 982 2013-10-11 23:31:32 <sipa> hmmno
 983 2013-10-11 23:31:40 <sipa> nobody
 984 2013-10-11 23:31:41 <sipa> sorry
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 986 2013-10-11 23:33:08 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: what are you speaking about? dont say its a suprise i kill you
 987 2013-10-11 23:33:44 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: I'm on the schedule, you could look it up. (though, uh, maybe I should send them an abstract)
 988 2013-10-11 23:34:25 <skinnkavaj> sipa: you and Luke-Jr go build blockchain.info statistics into bitcoin gui
 989 2013-10-11 23:36:36 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: why don't you do it?
 990 2013-10-11 23:36:48 <gmaxwell> (other than that the Bc.i stats are pretty lame)
 991 2013-10-11 23:37:28 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: i already have it written and done its just that i would like sipa and Luke-Jr to get some credits ;)
 992 2013-10-11 23:40:34 <skinnkavaj> just being cocky, but really you guys should
 993 2013-10-11 23:40:52 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: what would you prefer to be in bitcoin 1.0?
 994 2013-10-11 23:40:56 <skinnkavaj> when will it be "finished"?
 995 2013-10-11 23:46:30 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 996 2013-10-11 23:47:23 <MC1984> 0.9 rolls over into 0.10
 997 2013-10-11 23:47:25 dvide has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 998 2013-10-11 23:47:26 <MC1984> trollface.png
 999 2013-10-11 23:48:24 <gmaxwell> MC1984: what, you thought it was otherwise?
1000 2013-10-11 23:48:26 andytoshi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1001 2013-10-11 23:48:45 <sipa> 0.9, 0.9.9, 0.9.9.9, ...
1002 2013-10-11 23:48:47 <MC1984> never had a doubt
1003 2013-10-11 23:49:28 <sipa> it converges to (e^pi - pi)/20
1004 2013-10-11 23:49:40 <sipa> ;;calc (e**pi - pi)/20
1005 2013-10-11 23:49:40 <gribble> 0.999954998959
1006 2013-10-11 23:49:53 <gmaxwell> oh thats a tricky number.
1007 2013-10-11 23:50:29 <skinnkavaj> he who have written gribble, nanotube, is he spanish? does anyone know? he is so hard to reach.
1008 2013-10-11 23:51:12 <warren> we need more bits for the block version number to accommodate that much innovation
1009 2013-10-11 23:51:25 <skinnkavaj> warren :D
1010 2013-10-11 23:54:57 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: has there been any big discussion on what to include in bitcoin 1.0?
1011 2013-10-11 23:55:07 <skinnkavaj> or are we too far away?
1012 2013-10-11 23:55:20 <MC1984> another year at least imo
1013 2013-10-11 23:55:26 <skinnkavaj> another year!?
1014 2013-10-11 23:55:28 <skinnkavaj> crazy
1015 2013-10-11 23:55:32 <warren> MC1984: hey I actually did that thing you asked for
1016 2013-10-11 23:55:35 <MC1984> whats the rush
1017 2013-10-11 23:55:44 <skinnkavaj> i was thinking another decade or so
1018 2013-10-11 23:55:44 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: it's not anywhere near at all.
1019 2013-10-11 23:55:48 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: right.
1020 2013-10-11 23:56:01 <MC1984> warren ??
1021 2013-10-11 23:56:04 <gmaxwell> anyways maybe something gets called 1.0 before then, marketing is a funny thing.
1022 2013-10-11 23:56:16 <gmaxwell> But it will not be finished anytime soon.
1023 2013-10-11 23:56:28 <MC1984> surely it will never be finished
1024 2013-10-11 23:56:36 <MC1984> man i remember when vlc hit 1.0
1025 2013-10-11 23:56:52 <warren> MC1984: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=31503819
1026 2013-10-11 23:57:10 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: there are constantly new things being invented which could radically improve bitcoin once implemented. Most of them will never find a place in bitcoin, but some of them may.
1027 2013-10-11 23:57:28 <skinnkavaj> i bet it will be hard to have everyone agree that 1.0 is it, thats why i think it will never be 1.0
1028 2013-10-11 23:57:54 <skinnkavaj> there will always be people who want to add more or change something
1029 2013-10-11 23:58:05 <MC1984> oh thanks man
1030 2013-10-11 23:58:31 kuzetsa has quit (Quit: Stop doing that it. You don't want it to fall off.)
1031 2013-10-11 23:58:47 <MC1984> 1.0 implies some sort of warranty
1032 2013-10-11 23:58:53 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: looking forward to sunnykings next coin
1033 2013-10-11 23:58:57 <MC1984> just keep adding nines forever
1034 2013-10-11 23:58:59 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: nonsense
1035 2013-10-11 23:59:01 <skinnkavaj> he seems to like to innovate
1036 2013-10-11 23:59:19 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1037 2013-10-11 23:59:21 <skinnkavaj> who doesnt
1038 2013-10-11 23:59:44 <MC1984> 1.0 is analagous to initial release