1 2013-10-12 00:00:01 kuzetsa has joined
   2 2013-10-12 00:00:04 <warren> Then (e**pi - pi)/20 sounds like a good idea.
   3 2013-10-12 00:00:34 <skinnkavaj> 1.0 will never be agreed on when money is involved, vlc is totally different since it does not involve money
   4 2013-10-12 00:00:53 <skinnkavaj> too many bright minds wanna have their say
   5 2013-10-12 00:00:58 <MC1984> hmm when did bitcoin get to 22mb
   6 2013-10-12 00:01:10 <skinnkavaj> thats why bitcoin always will be GOLD =D
   7 2013-10-12 00:01:13 <MC1984> google kept gmail in beta for a long time for this reason
   8 2013-10-12 00:01:49 <skinnkavaj> MC1984: but gmail is not open source
   9 2013-10-12 00:01:59 <skinnkavaj> there is a boss on google
  10 2013-10-12 00:03:23 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: do you hear anything from dan kaminsky?
  11 2013-10-12 00:03:54 <skinnkavaj> i have just seen him on a bitcoin panel in a conference @ youtube
  12 2013-10-12 00:04:00 <skinnkavaj> never on forum, irc, maillist
  13 2013-10-12 00:04:02 <skinnkavaj> or anyting
  14 2013-10-12 00:04:13 <skinnkavaj> and yet he makes bet with jgarzik on twitter about bitcoin
  15 2013-10-12 00:04:13 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: I have mail from him from last week. He's posted on the forum before.
  16 2013-10-12 00:04:21 <gmaxwell> I thought he declined that bet? :P
  17 2013-10-12 00:04:22 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: do you know his forum nick?
  18 2013-10-12 00:04:32 <skinnkavaj> haha, who?
  19 2013-10-12 00:04:38 <skinnkavaj> jgarzik or dan?
  20 2013-10-12 00:04:44 <sipa> dakami, right?
  21 2013-10-12 00:04:49 <gmaxwell> dan declined the bet jgarzik offered.
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  23 2013-10-12 00:05:24 <skinnkavaj> i like how dan kamisky talks, he is really good at talking and making everything sound cool
  24 2013-10-12 00:05:47 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: haha
  25 2013-10-12 00:05:49 <sipa> he does seem to like exaggerating, though :)
  26 2013-10-12 00:05:53 <skinnkavaj> wasnt it his idea
  27 2013-10-12 00:05:56 <MC1984> he is rather bombastic
  28 2013-10-12 00:06:05 <skinnkavaj> to have the bet
  29 2013-10-12 00:06:44 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: he was making some bombastic claims that us techies thought were crazy. I would have rushed to make the same bet with him, if I had a twitter account.
  30 2013-10-12 00:07:12 <skinnkavaj> and jgarzik replied haha
  31 2013-10-12 00:07:15 <gmaxwell> He's a bum for not taking it. :P
  32 2013-10-12 00:07:41 <skinnkavaj> i still like dan
  33 2013-10-12 00:07:44 <skinnkavaj> he can admit he is wrong
  34 2013-10-12 00:07:53 <skinnkavaj> like the famous bashing bitcoin video
  35 2013-10-12 00:07:56 <skinnkavaj> from defqon
  36 2013-10-12 00:08:05 <skinnkavaj> and now he is in bitcoin panels
  37 2013-10-12 00:08:12 <skinnkavaj> takes a lot of balls to admit that
  38 2013-10-12 00:08:40 <sipa> he bashed bitcoin?
  39 2013-10-12 00:08:48 <skinnkavaj> lol
  40 2013-10-12 00:08:49 <skinnkavaj> yeah
  41 2013-10-12 00:08:51 <skinnkavaj> YEAH
  42 2013-10-12 00:08:56 <skinnkavaj> i mean really much
  43 2013-10-12 00:08:58 <skinnkavaj> its like 1 hour
  44 2013-10-12 00:09:01 <skinnkavaj> bashing video
  45 2013-10-12 00:09:03 <skinnkavaj> on youtube
  46 2013-10-12 00:09:06 <skinnkavaj> talking on how bad bitcoin is
  47 2013-10-12 00:09:10 <skinnkavaj> on a defqon conference
  48 2013-10-12 00:09:27 <sipa> k
  49 2013-10-12 00:09:38 <sipa> (defcon)
  50 2013-10-12 00:10:02 <MC1984> i think he tried to blind the wrong audience with science
  51 2013-10-12 00:10:18 <skinnkavaj> haha
  52 2013-10-12 00:10:50 <skinnkavaj> talk about that, there was a guy buying bitcoin from me on localbitcoins
  53 2013-10-12 00:10:57 <skinnkavaj> i met him, he make his first buy
  54 2013-10-12 00:11:03 <skinnkavaj> i ask how did you get into bitcoin?
  55 2013-10-12 00:11:15 <skinnkavaj> he say "my girlfriend is a programmer and she explained it to me"
  56 2013-10-12 00:11:28 phillsphinest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  57 2013-10-12 00:11:55 AndChat has joined
  58 2013-10-12 00:11:57 <skinnkavaj> wow you have a smart girl i replied, he smiled and lived happy ever after rich on bitcoin
  59 2013-10-12 00:13:19 kuzetsa has joined
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  64 2013-10-12 00:23:43 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: care to give a short explanation on coloured coins? i have watched youtube videoes, read about it etc.. i still don't understand, why is it good?
  65 2013-10-12 00:23:59 <skinnkavaj> and also many in bitcoin development seems to be against it, why?
  66 2013-10-12 00:25:49 <MC1984> fucks with fungibility i expect
  67 2013-10-12 00:25:55 <gmaxwell> It's unclear to me that it actually does anything useful. Many of the applications people cite can simply be done without color coins at all. Sometimes colored coins exemplify the same kind of tunnel vision that plagues people with DHTs.  "Bitcoin is the only kind of distributed system I know" or "Bitcoin is the only way I know to transfer ownership"  "thus I should use bitcoin for this applicatoin".
  68 2013-10-12 00:26:06 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  69 2013-10-12 00:27:20 <gmaxwell> By itself that stuff is harmless if somewhat time wasteful for people who get caught up in it.  ... but colored coin applications can potentially be abusive of the blockchain as a limited scarce resource, resulting in inefficient transaction patterns and bloat which makes bitcoin less decenteralized and more costly to run for everyone.
  70 2013-10-12 00:27:50 <nanotube> anyone care to give a brief summary or link to the failed bet between jgarzik and dankaminsky/
  71 2013-10-12 00:27:51 <gmaxwell> I like neat applications, but if they're ones that can be done without burdening third parties with additional costs, they ought to be done that way.
  72 2013-10-12 00:27:52 <nanotube> ?
  73 2013-10-12 00:28:30 <jgarzik> nanotube, google "jgarzik dakami bet"
  74 2013-10-12 00:28:37 <gmaxwell> nanotube: dan said that within the year (?) mining would need to use another pow than SHA256 because omg asics. Jgarzik tried to get him in to a modest bet on that (10 BTC?) but failed.
  75 2013-10-12 00:28:48 <MC1984> kaminsky said the hash algo would change by this year or something, someone bet him it wouldnt
  76 2013-10-12 00:29:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: not "would need to use", "would use"
  77 2013-10-12 00:29:54 fanquake has joined
  78 2013-10-12 00:30:24 <jgarzik> https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/336210942717214720
  79 2013-10-12 00:30:55 mrkent has joined
  80 2013-10-12 00:31:19 <skinnkavaj> We can fix it. We have the technology. OK. We need to create the technology. Alright. The policy guys are mucking with the technology. Relax. WE'RE ON IT.
  81 2013-10-12 00:31:19 <skinnkavaj> The Internets
  82 2013-10-12 00:31:24 <skinnkavaj> ^^ Kaminsky
  83 2013-10-12 00:31:26 <skinnkavaj> Legend
  84 2013-10-12 00:31:38 samson_ has joined
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  86 2013-10-12 00:32:22 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: the thing with coloured coins is that they get their value outside the blockchain. So long as that outside party exists, the coloured coins are centralised even in the blockchain. centralised systems can work far more efficient and private without a blockchain, so might as well do that instead.
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  88 2013-10-12 00:32:48 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: at least for 99% of the things people talk about.
  89 2013-10-12 00:32:51 <MC1984> why not merge mine a colourcoin chain
  90 2013-10-12 00:33:00 <MC1984> if people are set on doing it
  91 2013-10-12 00:33:25 <gmaxwell> MC1984: becuase you never needed the colored coins to begin with for those applications, and the merged mined chain runs into the "doing cross chain trades is tricky" problem.
  92 2013-10-12 00:33:34 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: is there another use case?
  93 2013-10-12 00:33:52 <MC1984> people want to use a blockchain so shit cant be seized
  94 2013-10-12 00:34:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: merged mining can be done in a way that makes the slave dependent on the master (like what Mastercoin should be doing)
  95 2013-10-12 00:34:16 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'm not willing to say there is none. But all the smart property / stock ones don't really need it.
  96 2013-10-12 00:34:23 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: there's no evidence blockchain ownership can't be seized, ESPECIALLY of coloured coins
  97 2013-10-12 00:34:38 <warren> Luke-Jr: you mean a merge coin is possible that can't be merged with <master that isn't Bitcoin>?
  98 2013-10-12 00:34:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I know, I've pointed this out to people, I'm just saying that for the 99% of things which there is no need for a blockchain consensus at all, you also don't need a merged mined thing.
  99 2013-10-12 00:34:49 <Luke-Jr> warren: yes
 100 2013-10-12 00:34:51 G________ has joined
 101 2013-10-12 00:34:52 <warren> Luke-Jr: how?
 102 2013-10-12 00:35:05 <nanotube> jgarzik: gmaxwell thanks :)
 103 2013-10-12 00:35:05 <Luke-Jr> warren: the child block is only valid in the context of the master chain
 104 2013-10-12 00:35:14 <gmaxwell> warren: trivially. The nodes in that other thing are also bitcoin nodes (or at least bitcoin SPV nodes)
 105 2013-10-12 00:35:15 <Luke-Jr> warren: a forked bitcoin master chain would result in a forked child chain
 106 2013-10-12 00:35:21 <skinnkavaj> mastercoin seems to be good but i hate that it was premined, but wait.. satoshi just have 1 million coins for himself xD
 107 2013-10-12 00:35:34 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: I don't think there is a single good thing about it.
 108 2013-10-12 00:35:57 <nanotube> skinnkavaj: i'm not spanish, though i speak it thanks to some years of schooling.
 109 2013-10-12 00:36:27 <skinnkavaj> nanotube: cool, perhaps you know if there has been some attempts to start a spanish bitcoin exchange?
 110 2013-10-12 00:36:32 <skinnkavaj> thats what i wanted to ask you.
 111 2013-10-12 00:36:44 <gmaxwell> MC1984: in any case, what asset are you talking about?  E.g. if its ownership in some company... if $foo can seize the company then some chain records of the stock are worthless.
 112 2013-10-12 00:36:59 <warren> Luke-Jr: is that criticism of colored coins written down anywhere?
 113 2013-10-12 00:37:23 <Luke-Jr> warren: dunno, someone should write up about it on the wiki..
 114 2013-10-12 00:37:34 <gmaxwell> Ripper would just delete it. :P
 115 2013-10-12 00:37:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: lock the page and/or ban him?
 116 2013-10-12 00:37:52 <nanotube> skinnkavaj: not aware of anything like that.
 117 2013-10-12 00:38:13 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: though he hasn't been too much trouble lately
 118 2013-10-12 00:38:21 <gmaxwell> warren: it's a really common one, I've seen lots of people independantly produce it.
 119 2013-10-12 00:38:31 <warren> that's pretty much the same problem with Ripple
 120 2013-10-12 00:38:40 <skinnkavaj> while talking about exchange, does anyone know any good open source exchange software, or can i buy it from someone?
 121 2013-10-12 00:38:42 <MC1984> ok i will stop attempting to rationalise coloured coins
 122 2013-10-12 00:38:54 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 123 2013-10-12 00:39:13 <warren> skinnkavaj: exchanges are things that really must be understood by the people running it...
 124 2013-10-12 00:39:29 <skinnkavaj> warren: yeah but i could hire a guy.
 125 2013-10-12 00:39:29 <sipa> and the hardest part of an exchange is certainly not the software
 126 2013-10-12 00:39:30 <warren> skinnkavaj: far simpler things (like pools) aren't understood by the people running it and hilarity ensues.
 127 2013-10-12 00:39:49 <skinnkavaj> sipa: i know. coding is not my thing either.
 128 2013-10-12 00:39:55 <warren> skinnkavaj: you have source code and legal code to deal with, so you need to hire more than one guy...
 129 2013-10-12 00:40:00 <gmaxwell> MC1984: in any case, I'm not saying there aren't any uses at all, just that virtually everything people can suggest can be done basically as well without sticking the limited scalablity blockchain in the middle of it.  Plus you get the fun extra concerns like we have no utxo expiration, and all your colored coins just become worthless min-value outputs if the company in question dies.
 130 2013-10-12 00:40:06 <skinnkavaj> for me the most fun is to debate bitcoin and all the laws applied to it.
 131 2013-10-12 00:40:27 <gmaxwell> (and crap about colored coins caused people to try to oppose really important anti-dos measures. :(  ... mixing applications really stinks)
 132 2013-10-12 00:40:41 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 133 2013-10-12 00:40:48 <warren> gmaxwell: what anti-dos measures in particular?  I missed this.
 134 2013-10-12 00:41:07 <sipa> the dust output
 135 2013-10-12 00:41:37 <gmaxwell> warren: people were opposing having the dust output threshold because they were thinking that being able to make 1 satoshi outputs was essential to their colored coin plans.
 136 2013-10-12 00:42:02 <MC1984> MUST USE SMALLEST UNIT
 137 2013-10-12 00:42:14 <skinnkavaj> anyone in this channel must have an exchange software they can run if i pay them? i really want to hire.
 138 2013-10-12 00:42:34 <MC1984> fuck colour coins simply due to fungibility imo. dont need any more abstract justification than that
 139 2013-10-12 00:42:58 <MC1984> skinnkavaj you will enter a universe of pain
 140 2013-10-12 00:43:06 <skinnkavaj> sipa: whats hard about running an exchange? isn't it enough to keep bitcoin software up to date and it runs by itself?
 141 2013-10-12 00:43:14 <sipa> skinnkavaj: legal threats
 142 2013-10-12 00:43:16 * warren facepalm
 143 2013-10-12 00:43:25 <gmaxwell> interfacing with things that aren't bitcoin.
 144 2013-10-12 00:43:27 <sipa> interacting with other businesses
 145 2013-10-12 00:43:30 <skinnkavaj> sipa: the legal is what i want to handle.
 146 2013-10-12 00:43:30 <sipa> banks
 147 2013-10-12 00:43:41 <skinnkavaj> i dont want anything to do with exchange software
 148 2013-10-12 00:43:43 <skinnkavaj> its not my thing.
 149 2013-10-12 00:43:52 <warren> yet you want to run an exchange
 150 2013-10-12 00:44:15 c0rw1n_ has joined
 151 2013-10-12 00:44:22 <skinnkavaj> warren: yes
 152 2013-10-12 00:44:30 c0rw1n has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 153 2013-10-12 00:45:16 <sipa> if you're able to run an exchange business, i doubt you'd have much trouble hiring someone to do the software for you
 154 2013-10-12 00:45:38 <skinnkavaj> sipa: no probably, but always when i hire a coder they are like. yes this will be done in 2 weeks, and 6 months later
 155 2013-10-12 00:45:41 <skinnkavaj> its not finished
 156 2013-10-12 00:45:45 <MC1984> is it ever very profitable
 157 2013-10-12 00:45:47 <skinnkavaj> so hard to find anyone i know can do a good job.
 158 2013-10-12 00:46:19 <MC1984> stop hiring programmers off craigslist
 159 2013-10-12 00:46:27 <skinnkavaj> MC1984: i have hired people from this chat room.
 160 2013-10-12 00:46:42 <skinnkavaj> it has failed.
 161 2013-10-12 00:46:55 <warren> did they ask to be paid up front?
 162 2013-10-12 00:46:58 <skinnkavaj> no
 163 2013-10-12 00:47:05 <skinnkavaj> i did not apy them upfront either
 164 2013-10-12 00:47:08 <skinnkavaj> that would be stupid
 165 2013-10-12 00:47:08 <gmaxwell> Time estimation in serious development is very difficult.
 166 2013-10-12 00:47:26 abueesp has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
 167 2013-10-12 00:47:46 <skinnkavaj> i think i need to find someone that is already running an exchange
 168 2013-10-12 00:48:00 <skinnkavaj> dont tell me to go to mtgox
 169 2013-10-12 00:48:04 <skinnkavaj> i will kill you.
 170 2013-10-12 00:48:24 abueesp has joined
 171 2013-10-12 00:48:34 abueesp has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 172 2013-10-12 00:48:55 <sipa> you could try hiring MagicalTux
 173 2013-10-12 00:49:00 <gmaxwell> haha
 174 2013-10-12 00:49:01 <skinnkavaj> hahaha
 175 2013-10-12 00:49:35 <skinnkavaj> i still think MagicalTux will be back bigtime and be like "hey im the king again"
 176 2013-10-12 00:49:46 <sipa> k
 177 2013-10-12 00:49:48 <gmaxwell> Considering the administrative challenges mtgox has had, selling regional exchanges to other people who want to try their hand at the logistics locally might be a viable business.
 178 2013-10-12 00:49:49 <skinnkavaj> so hard to lose status
 179 2013-10-12 00:49:51 <skinnkavaj> it takes a lot of time
 180 2013-10-12 00:50:11 <warren> gmaxwell: that approach seems to have not gone well ...
 181 2013-10-12 00:50:27 <gmaxwell> well thats not what that was.
 182 2013-10-12 00:50:40 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: have they tried doing that?
 183 2013-10-12 00:50:42 <skinnkavaj> oh
 184 2013-10-12 00:50:45 <skinnkavaj> yeah u mean coinlab
 185 2013-10-12 00:50:46 <skinnkavaj> lol
 186 2013-10-12 00:50:53 <MC1984> gox sold?
 187 2013-10-12 00:51:07 netg has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 188 2013-10-12 00:51:19 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: Are you on a phone?
 189 2013-10-12 00:51:23 <skinnkavaj> kraken.com i love that site!
 190 2013-10-12 00:51:35 <skinnkavaj> but too technical for the average joe.
 191 2013-10-12 00:51:37 crass has joined
 192 2013-10-12 00:51:45 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: no, why?
 193 2013-10-12 00:51:52 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 194 2013-10-12 00:52:37 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: Just wondering why you're using "u" for you? Usually I expect that to go along with "loldongs!". :)
 195 2013-10-12 00:52:54 <sipa> roflcopter!
 196 2013-10-12 00:54:00 <skinnkavaj> =)
 197 2013-10-12 00:54:06 <skinnkavaj> maybe i should write a mail to bitstamp
 198 2013-10-12 00:54:16 <skinnkavaj> but they are probably too big to care about more money.
 199 2013-10-12 00:54:21 <skinnkavaj> and have their own shit to deal with
 200 2013-10-12 00:54:29 <skinnkavaj> but its a nice looking exchange
 201 2013-10-12 00:54:34 <skinnkavaj> perfect for the average joe buys.
 202 2013-10-12 00:54:36 btcbtc_ has quit (Quit: btcbtc_)
 203 2013-10-12 00:56:09 c0rw1n_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 204 2013-10-12 00:56:53 <MC1984> do people even really straight up start an exchange any more these days
 205 2013-10-12 00:57:01 saivann has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 206 2013-10-12 00:57:02 gingpark has joined
 207 2013-10-12 00:57:09 <MC1984> i thought those carefree days were gone
 208 2013-10-12 00:57:10 <sipa> i'm sure some try :)
 209 2013-10-12 00:57:22 <skinnkavaj> MC1984: i see new exchanges popping up all the time
 210 2013-10-12 00:57:25 <skinnkavaj> and its good
 211 2013-10-12 00:57:30 <skinnkavaj> because there will always be a need
 212 2013-10-12 00:57:51 <MC1984> arnt people afraid of getting steamrolled by tax inspector scary or agent frightening now
 213 2013-10-12 00:58:06 <skinnkavaj> MC1984: you can pax taxes right
 214 2013-10-12 00:58:12 <skinnkavaj> if you handle a bitcoin exchange
 215 2013-10-12 00:58:19 <skinnkavaj> god, why does everyone think its soo hard?
 216 2013-10-12 00:58:26 <skinnkavaj> its not that hard to follow all the laws and pay all the taxes
 217 2013-10-12 00:58:35 <sipa> sounds like a good start
 218 2013-10-12 00:58:42 kuzetsa has quit (Quit: Stop doing that it. You don't want it to fall off.)
 219 2013-10-12 00:58:46 <skinnkavaj> yeah but hilarious is that
 220 2013-10-12 00:58:48 <skinnkavaj> all exchanges
 221 2013-10-12 00:58:52 <sipa> but judging by how many have tried and failed, i doubt it's that easy :)
 222 2013-10-12 00:58:52 <skinnkavaj> did not follow any laws
 223 2013-10-12 00:58:54 <skinnkavaj> like all big ones
 224 2013-10-12 00:58:59 <skinnkavaj> did not follow AML, KYC etc.
 225 2013-10-12 00:59:03 <MC1984> home si doubt the taxman knows what taxes you should be paying on that shit
 226 2013-10-12 00:59:08 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: yes they did
 227 2013-10-12 00:59:13 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: not from start
 228 2013-10-12 00:59:14 <MC1984> but when he figures it out you dont want to be the first
 229 2013-10-12 00:59:15 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: and yes it is hard
 230 2013-10-12 00:59:31 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: it's not hard to follow laws
 231 2013-10-12 00:59:41 <warren> skinnkavaj: the way accounting works, there's no way to calculate what each customer should owe in taxes with all the random deposits and withdrawals.  there's also the problem where how exactly to classify it on taxes isn't defined in most countries.
 232 2013-10-12 00:59:42 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: as I understand it from my very limited experience, it's basically impossible for a foreign company to comply with US laws
 233 2013-10-12 01:00:03 <skinnkavaj> warren: is that the exchange owners problem? No. totally wrong.
 234 2013-10-12 01:00:07 <MC1984> not hard to follow laws? Cool now we can kill all the lawyers
 235 2013-10-12 01:00:18 toffoo has joined
 236 2013-10-12 01:00:27 <skinnkavaj> people should pay their own taxes on profit
 237 2013-10-12 01:00:39 <skinnkavaj> on each tax year.
 238 2013-10-12 01:00:41 <skinnkavaj> they can report it.
 239 2013-10-12 01:00:45 <skinnkavaj> if they want to
 240 2013-10-12 01:00:52 <skinnkavaj> its not up to the exchange to do it
 241 2013-10-12 01:01:11 <skinnkavaj> the exchange should pay taxes on their profits as well
 242 2013-10-12 01:01:51 <MC1984> try it then
 243 2013-10-12 01:02:00 <MC1984> make sure you have legally limited liability though
 244 2013-10-12 01:02:06 one_zero has joined
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 246 2013-10-12 01:02:17 <skinnkavaj> MC1984: you just have to have balls
 247 2013-10-12 01:02:27 <warren> skinnkavaj: other "exchanges" in the U.S. report capital gains directly to the IRS every year.
 248 2013-10-12 01:02:28 <MC1984> instead of brains maybe
 249 2013-10-12 01:03:00 <skinnkavaj> warren: you cannot do that with bitcoin, there is no way.
 250 2013-10-12 01:03:05 <MC1984> if i ran an exchange i would ip block the whole of US at least
 251 2013-10-12 01:03:06 <skinnkavaj> its technically impossible
 252 2013-10-12 01:03:29 <MC1984> its just not worth fucking around with seeing as they can extradite from anywhere that speaks english for anything
 253 2013-10-12 01:04:24 <skinnkavaj> look, the government will have to find other ways to collect taxes and they will find. they just have to adapt.
 254 2013-10-12 01:04:30 <skinnkavaj> just like the file sharing industry has adapted
 255 2013-10-12 01:04:32 <skinnkavaj> with spotify.
 256 2013-10-12 01:04:43 <MC1984> omh you are so misinformed
 257 2013-10-12 01:05:13 <MC1984> fucking with tax lines will bring a violent reaction that makes the copyright shenanigans look like gentle pleading
 258 2013-10-12 01:05:51 <skinnkavaj> MC1984: ok so forbid bitcoin and drive it underground and make no taxes at all? is that a better alternative?
 259 2013-10-12 01:06:04 <MC1984> DRUG WAR
 260 2013-10-12 01:06:27 <skinnkavaj> MC1984: bitcoin wont be forbidden
 261 2013-10-12 01:06:31 <skinnkavaj> only tin foil hats believe that
 262 2013-10-12 01:06:43 <MC1984> i didnt say they were rational, i said they were violent and powerful
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 265 2013-10-12 01:08:28 <skinnkavaj> (02:57:48) (Luke-Jr) skinnkavaj: as I understand it from my very limited experience, it's basically impossible for a foreign company to comply with US laws
 266 2013-10-12 01:08:36 <skinnkavaj> you are probably right
 267 2013-10-12 01:09:10 <skinnkavaj> you don't have to serve other users then your own country
 268 2013-10-12 01:09:37 <skinnkavaj> bitcoin works even if you have an local exchange for every country
 269 2013-10-12 01:10:00 <MC1984> im british so im really getting a kick out of that
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 275 2013-10-12 01:18:23 <MC1984> aww shit speaking of drug war
 276 2013-10-12 01:18:34 <MC1984> krok has made it to america
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 278 2013-10-12 01:19:28 <MC1984> good lord that shit makes crytal meth looks like vitamin pills
 279 2013-10-12 01:20:35 <gmaxwell> getting a little too far off topic here.
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 282 2013-10-12 01:22:38 <MC1984> ok
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 376 2013-10-12 05:19:35 <warren> gmaxwell: is your position on centralized issuers on Ripple -> might as well do trading at the centralized issuer written somewhere in public?
 377 2013-10-12 05:21:37 <gmaxwell> Yep.  There may be some "value" in basically obfuscating what they're really doing, to try to call it a decenteralized system when it really isn't in order to evade regulatory attention. I don't assign much value to that kind of argument, legal and leglislative systems have neigh infinite power to see past obfuscation (to the extent that they can see 'past' obfuscation that isn't).
 378 2013-10-12 05:23:14 <warren> gmaxwell: can I use that as a quote?  I'm pointing to various opinions on colored coins and ripple.
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 384 2013-10-12 05:31:03 <gmaxwell> if you think it would be helpful. I'm not sure it will actually be informative to people other than you. I suspect it might need more background, e.g. the idea that ripple isn't really a decenteralized system is very surprising to many people, most attention on ripple has been on the weird gigantic premine, and all the astroturf support thats been bought with it. :)
 385 2013-10-12 05:31:25 <gmaxwell> and the few people that get past that get hung up on the economics of IOUs. :P
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 387 2013-10-12 05:31:52 <gmaxwell> Whats the ripple premine worth at current exchange rates? has it topped a trillion dollars yet?
 388 2013-10-12 05:32:53 <warren> If it really were about a network of IOU's, with everyone actually using the system that way, it might be different.
 389 2013-10-12 05:33:36 <warren> Then there's also the issue of the doubtful security of their consensus method.
 390 2013-10-12 05:33:50 <gmaxwell> warren: see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144471.0 (and the subsiquent thread with some sparring betwen me and joel katz)
 391 2013-10-12 05:34:22 <gmaxwell> warren: well I think their consensus method is "secure" as long as its controlled by a single administrative domain.
 392 2013-10-12 05:34:51 <gmaxwell> if it's not I still have no clue what the necessary criteria are for convergence. I was never able to extract a theory about what one might be from the ripplers.
 393 2013-10-12 05:35:04 <warren> So their consensus system works as long as you agree with yourself.
 394 2013-10-12 05:36:41 <gmaxwell> It seemed a little stronger than that, e.g. it worked so long as it was 100% honest parties with fully meshed trust graph. But I don't actually know how you can achieve that at any scale unless there really is just one administrative domain controlling it. Maybe there is a way, but I've not seen it described.
 395 2013-10-12 05:37:32 <gmaxwell> (also, the system would have to go offline if 51% percent of the parties in the fully meshed trust graph were offline for any reason, otherwise you risk unresolvable partitioning.)
 396 2013-10-12 05:37:54 <warren> " unless there really is just one administrative domain controlling it" could be analogous to broadcast checkpoints
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 398 2013-10-12 05:39:12 <gmaxwell> yes, and you could imagine a slightly different version of this that didn't require the trust graph to be fully meshed but unwedged stuck states with broadcast checkpoints.
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 529 2013-10-12 12:11:05 <darsie> hi
 530 2013-10-12 12:13:05 <darsie> I'd like 2 buttons in bitcoin-qt. 'Send all' which puts all your balance in the amount field and 'subtract fee - yes/no' which subtracts your fee from the send amount  if there is not enough balance left for the fee.
 531 2013-10-12 12:13:28 <swulf--> send all would be terrible
 532 2013-10-12 12:13:33 <swulf--> someone would accidentally hit it
 533 2013-10-12 12:13:45 <darsie> It just fills out the amount field.
 534 2013-10-12 12:13:52 <swulf--> with your entire balance
 535 2013-10-12 12:13:55 <darsie> ye
 536 2013-10-12 12:13:57 <darsie> s
 537 2013-10-12 12:14:04 <swulf--> that's just asking for mistakes
 538 2013-10-12 12:14:32 <darsie> I've seen it on at least two bitcoin exchanges.
 539 2013-10-12 12:14:36 <darsie> it's good.
 540 2013-10-12 12:14:36 <sipa> you can't know the fee before constructing the transaction, unfortunately
 541 2013-10-12 12:15:11 <wumpus> a way to send the entire balance would be useful nevertheless
 542 2013-10-12 12:15:19 <sipa> agree there
 543 2013-10-12 12:15:27 <wumpus> but indeed, it's not trivial
 544 2013-10-12 12:15:42 <sipa> just a checkbox "receiver pays fee" for example
 545 2013-10-12 12:15:56 <swulf--> oooh neat
 546 2013-10-12 12:16:04 <wumpus> yes that'd be nice
 547 2013-10-12 12:16:13 <wumpus> would also make it more generic
 548 2013-10-12 12:16:15 <swulf--> receiver pays fee, set fee equal to 200btc for hilariousness
 549 2013-10-12 12:16:36 <wumpus> you're still the person that pays in the end
 550 2013-10-12 12:16:51 <swulf--> yeah, receiver would just raise the price of whatever he's selling
 551 2013-10-12 12:17:30 <darsie> I usually let the buyes of my btc pay the tx fee and deduct it from their btc balance.
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 570 2013-10-12 13:42:32 <_Sam---> hi, can someone explain to me the dangers of what can occur if one party controls more than 51% of the found blocks?
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 572 2013-10-12 13:47:38 <MC1984_> https://www.virustotal.com/en/file/64f6087c248b471be4ee8909dd5e605d6cef7f7e9f87c1330c282245c87b096e/analysis/1381545651/ interesting
 573 2013-10-12 13:47:56 <pigeons> _Sam---: I don't know the answer to your question as asked "more than 51% of the found blocks" usually the danger of 51% of the hashing pwer is referred to as 51% attack
 574 2013-10-12 13:48:09 <MC1984_> thats a report for the secp256k1 build warren made
 575 2013-10-12 13:48:32 <MC1984_> ofc its a false positive because it actually does contain a bitcoin cpu miner
 576 2013-10-12 13:48:33 <pigeons> _Sam---: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power
 577 2013-10-12 13:51:20 <_Sam---> thank you, reading up.
 578 2013-10-12 13:54:22 <jouke> MC1984_: >_<
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 580 2013-10-12 14:00:08 <_Sam---> can anyone comment on the legality of running a bitcoin pool in the USA?
 581 2013-10-12 14:00:10 <_Sam---> http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html
 582 2013-10-12 14:00:49 <MC1984_> so dont
 583 2013-10-12 14:01:08 <_Sam---> it was a question, you didnt provide an answer, but thanks
 584 2013-10-12 14:01:09 <MC1984_> run it anywhere except the us
 585 2013-10-12 14:01:22 <_Sam---> i see.  so its not OK in the usa?
 586 2013-10-12 14:01:39 <MC1984_> i dont really know, but why take the risk?
 587 2013-10-12 14:01:54 <MC1984_> bitcoin is global
 588 2013-10-12 14:01:58 <Belxjander> _Sam---: right now the US situation is too risky...
 589 2013-10-12 14:02:00 <_Sam---> the point isnt where the pool is located ; if i lvie in the USA then its illegal for me to run it.
 590 2013-10-12 14:02:35 <MC1984_> well...........enjoy your citizenship i suppose
 591 2013-10-12 14:03:02 <_Sam---> i wasn't trying to be a jerk ; i just was not aware what a touchy subject it was.
 592 2013-10-12 14:03:09 <_Sam---> but now i am.  thank you.
 593 2013-10-12 14:03:10 <Belxjander> _Sam---: you need to find out from fincen and all the rest of the administrators financial and jump through their hoops for the clowns going to town if you really want to be 100% legit... and it seems a whole lot of crap for very little in return
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 595 2013-10-12 14:03:44 <_Sam---> by the same standards, it would be impossble for someone in the USA to mine legally and turn that BTC into USD
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 597 2013-10-12 14:03:56 <MC1984_> since when has pool opping been in serious legal question anyway
 598 2013-10-12 14:04:11 <Belxjander> _Sam---: they can register as a state-specific MSB and that seems to cover them
 599 2013-10-12 14:04:12 <MC1984_> _Sam--- that may be the case
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 601 2013-10-12 14:05:10 <Belxjander> But I am not an american and have very little knowledge beyond what I hear on #bitcoin#? channels which is mostly 2nd hand at best
 602 2013-10-12 14:05:42 <_Sam---> thank you for the information.  disappointing for me, but the law is the law.
 603 2013-10-12 14:06:18 <MC1984_> this is not definitive advice
 604 2013-10-12 14:06:28 <_Sam---> i understand -- i can read and ersearch further.
 605 2013-10-12 14:06:47 <_Sam---> but the law seems to say, i live in the USA, if i a run a pool, im a money exchanging service and need to be registered.
 606 2013-10-12 14:06:54 <_Sam---> to have to worry about being hassled over .0001 btc
 607 2013-10-12 14:06:56 <_Sam---> not worth it
 608 2013-10-12 14:07:13 <MC1984_> land of opportunity
 609 2013-10-12 14:08:17 <_Sam---> im willing to at least see what it would take to become registered and legitimate ;  i have nothing to hide if its not ridiculous to do.
 610 2013-10-12 14:08:51 <MC1984_> didnt i read being registered as a msb is like 5m dollar per state
 611 2013-10-12 14:10:09 Belxjander has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 612 2013-10-12 14:10:49 <_Sam---> dont know, but i will let you know.
 613 2013-10-12 14:10:51 <_Sam---> "Registering with FinCEN is very easy, takes about 20 minutes and can be done through the BSA E-Filing System, described below."
 614 2013-10-12 14:11:30 <MC1984_> so what then. what does fincen really want from you
 615 2013-10-12 14:11:47 <MC1984_> you must log who found every block or something?
 616 2013-10-12 14:12:05 <_Sam---> you know as much (if not more) than i do already.
 617 2013-10-12 14:12:25 <_Sam---> it was just a surprise to find that 1.99 worth of BTC that i sell now and then, or the pools that i just finished and wanted to go live -- are not legal.
 618 2013-10-12 14:12:47 <MC1984_> or do they want you registered the same way people want there whereabouts of each gun registerd....you know just in case
 619 2013-10-12 14:14:02 <MC1984_> i dont know if anyone definitively knows theyre not legal
 620 2013-10-12 14:14:33 <MC1984_> its probably one of those things thats fine and dandy until the day the man gets grumpy about it and decides to make an example of someone
 621 2013-10-12 14:15:20 <_Sam---> i will find someone at my state level to speak with ; im friends with the attorney general.
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 623 2013-10-12 14:15:53 <MC1984_> well now thats a handy contact to have for sure
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 625 2013-10-12 14:16:29 <_Sam---> the other option is to work with someone who is already an established money service business.
 626 2013-10-12 14:17:01 <MC1984_> i think thts what the likes of bitpay did?
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 654 2013-10-12 15:11:59 <super3> just put up a pull request. mainly just doc cleanup stuff: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3085
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 663 2013-10-12 15:36:49 <cjrouge> hi
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 683 2013-10-12 16:23:01 <sipa> https://gist.github.com/sipa/6951837
 684 2013-10-12 16:23:09 <sipa> jgarzik: maybe interesting ^
 685 2013-10-12 16:25:32 <sipa> petertodd, gmaxwell: ^
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 687 2013-10-12 16:40:24 <nanotube> seen in my bitcoind log: 2013-10-12 16:37:09 ERROR: Non-canonical signature: R value excessively padded <- some misbehaving third-party client?
 688 2013-10-12 16:43:12 <sipa> nanotube: it's a malleability in bitcoin signatures we've been trying to kill for over a year now, i think
 689 2013-10-12 16:44:19 <MC1984_> warren should probably take down that win32 libsecp256k1 build
 690 2013-10-12 16:44:51 <sipa> nanotube: since 0.8.0, transactions with non-standard signatures (or public keys) are not relayed anymore
 691 2013-10-12 16:45:05 <sipa> nanotube: but there are several old codebases out there that still create such transactions
 692 2013-10-12 16:45:34 <nanotube> ah
 693 2013-10-12 16:45:44 <sipa> they're valid in blocks, though
 694 2013-10-12 16:45:47 <sipa> (for now...)
 695 2013-10-12 16:45:51 <nanotube> i see thanks for the info :)
 696 2013-10-12 16:46:25 <sipa> nanotube: one problem is that currently, which signatures are valid is entirely determined by openssl (since the reference client uses openssl to parse them)
 697 2013-10-12 16:46:34 <sipa> and openssl accepts many not-really-correctly encoded ones
 698 2013-10-12 16:46:55 <sipa> so any alternate implementation must really be bug-by-bug compatible with openssl
 699 2013-10-12 16:46:56 <nanotube> aye, i've seen talk about this earlier. hence your secp256 custom code. :)
 700 2013-10-12 16:47:17 <sipa> well it's a prerequisite for switching reference validation code to libsecp256k1
 701 2013-10-12 16:47:37 <sipa> but also good for other full node implementations
 702 2013-10-12 16:47:42 <nanotube> mm
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 704 2013-10-12 16:48:45 <sipa> not clear?
 705 2013-10-12 16:50:52 <nanotube> i buy it. so once libsecp is well tested and used, i presume we'll set a sunset date for non-canonical encodings, and that'll be that?
 706 2013-10-12 16:51:13 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 707 2013-10-12 16:51:44 <sipa> well there are several reasons for wanting canonical encodings
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 709 2013-10-12 16:52:00 <sipa> one is being able to use non-openssl based code for validating nodes
 710 2013-10-12 16:52:24 <sipa> another is malleability (the fact that you can change a valid transaction into another valid transaction, with a different txid)
 711 2013-10-12 16:52:44 <sipa> both are very good reasons individually to kill non-canonical signatures
 712 2013-10-12 16:53:23 <sipa> but we just can't do a softfork to enforce them until there are near-zero transactions being created anymore that use them
 713 2013-10-12 16:53:44 <sipa> as that could kill some client/site/... without anyone even knowing about its existance
 714 2013-10-12 16:54:04 <sipa> so for now, it's just a policy rules, preventing relay of such transactions
 715 2013-10-12 16:55:56 <MC1984_> how far is libsecp from actual deployment really
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 718 2013-10-12 16:56:42 <MC1984_> i was under the impression it was one of those things that wanted like atleast a year of testing after you think its done just to make sure
 719 2013-10-12 16:56:45 <sipa> MC1984_: i don't want the responsability of stolen coins or hard forked chains
 720 2013-10-12 16:57:04 <sipa> and i'm not even sure what could happen to make me trust my own code enough for deployment
 721 2013-10-12 16:57:13 <sipa> some smart people looking at it, i suppose
 722 2013-10-12 16:57:35 the_2nd has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 723 2013-10-12 16:57:50 <sipa> and i don't think that if there are bugs in it, we'll find them through randomized tests
 724 2013-10-12 16:58:08 <MC1984_> i wonder if/why cant the foundation have a fund to hire some well known clever clogs to audit things like that
 725 2013-10-12 16:58:20 the_2nd has joined
 726 2013-10-12 16:59:41 <MC1984_> i mean how does the openssl project do it? Same sort of risk exposure it seems
 727 2013-10-12 16:59:48 <MC1984_> more actually
 728 2013-10-12 17:00:39 <sipa> more risk, but certainly many many more eyes as well
 729 2013-10-12 17:02:03 <MC1984_> i wonder why we havent seen more papers from research departments about it
 730 2013-10-12 17:02:20 <MC1984_> there are plenty that like researching p2p stuff
 731 2013-10-12 17:02:56 <MC1984_> seems like distributed consensus would be a very interesting brand new area of research
 732 2013-10-12 17:03:18 <MC1984_> maybe they are as we speak
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 741 2013-10-12 17:13:46 <nanotube> after restarting a node, i see in getinfo: "errors" : "Warning: Please check that your computer's date and time are correct! If your clock is wrong Bitcoin will not work properly." timeoffset is -1. box time is correct within a few milliseconds (ntpdate). is there a way to clear the message, or will it go away after some time?
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 758 2013-10-12 17:54:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Have you spread it to crypto communities, forums, mailing lists, etc to look at?
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 762 2013-10-12 17:55:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There are plenty of places you could put it for assorted people to look at and comment on
 763 2013-10-12 17:55:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And there are sure to be at least some smart cryptographers who can evaluate it
 764 2013-10-12 17:56:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Btw, what's the license?)
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 772 2013-10-12 18:10:37 <MC1984> hmm my mail program is threading the dev list nicely
 773 2013-10-12 18:10:55 <MC1984> downside: 400> unread. time for a catchup
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 787 2013-10-12 18:58:20 <MC1984> "Bitcoin-Qt 0.9 will (probably) have Pieter's work in this area to be
 788 2013-10-12 18:58:20 <MC1984> usable very quickly, and download/verify the history in the background "
 789 2013-10-12 18:58:24 <MC1984> really?
 790 2013-10-12 18:58:30 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
 791 2013-10-12 18:58:49 <MC1984> i didnt know anyone was even seriously working on that
 792 2013-10-12 19:01:24 <sipa> you nean headersfirst?
 793 2013-10-12 19:01:42 <sipa> or where do you read that?
 794 2013-10-12 19:02:02 <MC1984> devlist
 795 2013-10-12 19:02:27 <MC1984> bout a month ago
 796 2013-10-12 19:02:43 <sipa> that sounds like an spv node upgrading itself to full
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 798 2013-10-12 19:02:52 <sipa> not actually what i'm working on
 799 2013-10-12 19:03:02 <MC1984> oh
 800 2013-10-12 19:03:05 <sipa> but headersfirst is certainly a step in that direction
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 803 2013-10-12 19:03:51 <sipa> we don't actually have an spv wallet implementation
 804 2013-10-12 19:03:59 <MC1984> i think we kond of need ot to stop haemorrhaging nodes......
 805 2013-10-12 19:04:07 <MC1984> but no one has any hard data on it
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 807 2013-10-12 19:06:56 <warren> MC1984: you sure that isn't a false positive?
 808 2013-10-12 19:07:10 <MC1984> ?
 809 2013-10-12 19:07:35 <warren> virustotal
 810 2013-10-12 19:07:49 <MC1984> oh, i know its a fasle positive
 811 2013-10-12 19:07:55 <MC1984> bitcoin still has a cpu miner in it
 812 2013-10-12 19:08:18 <MC1984> just found it strange/amusing some AV picked it up. I wonder if they flag the other miners too
 813 2013-10-12 19:08:36 <maaku> MC1984: where was that postd?
 814 2013-10-12 19:08:49 <MC1984> ???
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 816 2013-10-12 19:08:57 <maaku> "Bitcoin-Qt 0.9 will (probably) have Pieter's work in this area to be
 817 2013-10-12 19:08:57 <maaku> usable very quickly, and download/verify the history in the background "
 818 2013-10-12 19:09:05 <MC1984> devlist
 819 2013-10-12 19:09:11 <maaku> ok
 820 2013-10-12 19:09:32 <MC1984> seems it was somewhat mistaken though
 821 2013-10-12 19:09:51 <Luke-Jr> Pieter is of course the ultimate authority for what his work does and doesn't do :P
 822 2013-10-12 19:10:01 <sipa> haha :)
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 824 2013-10-12 19:12:26 <sipa> MC1984: what was the subject/sender of that mail?
 825 2013-10-12 19:12:55 <MC1984> luke
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 827 2013-10-12 19:13:09 * Luke-Jr hides
 828 2013-10-12 19:13:32 <sipa> MC1984: regarding that virus warnig, i suspect many botnets distribute a bitcoind binary to mine against?
 829 2013-10-12 19:13:40 <sipa> MC1984: or have done so in the past
 830 2013-10-12 19:14:28 <MC1984> id have thought they would just mine to a pool
 831 2013-10-12 19:14:40 <MC1984> but int he past when cpu mining was stilla thing, could have been viable
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 834 2013-10-12 19:15:14 <MC1984> i think i heard of cgminer etc getting put into payloads, i wonder if AVs flag that
 835 2013-10-12 19:16:09 <MC1984> i tend to run every executable/file-that-does-stuff thru VT automatically when downloading
 836 2013-10-12 19:16:26 <sipa> Luke-Jr, MC1984, warren: headerstfirst is just a different way of synchronizing the blockchain (which builds a headers-only representation withing seconds/minutes, and then fetches the blocks along the best path). I guess once we have that, implementing an SPV mode in the wallet becomes easy (disable the block fetching, and replace it by the wallet itself fetching filtered blocks). once all that is done, you could have a hybrid where you start in...
 837 2013-10-12 19:16:32 <sipa> spv, and upgrade to full in the background
 838 2013-10-12 19:17:15 <sipa> anyway, pulltester seems to break on headersfirst, and perhaps it's due to an actual problem in how it works
 839 2013-10-12 19:17:18 <MC1984> so its not usable straight away with just headersfirst?
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 841 2013-10-12 19:17:38 <sipa> headersfirst is not different in user experience than what we have now
 842 2013-10-12 19:17:47 <sipa> except it downloads faster :)
 843 2013-10-12 19:17:54 <maaku> MC1984: SPV is about wallets. headers-first has nothing to do with wallets
 844 2013-10-12 19:18:36 <sipa> indeed
 845 2013-10-12 19:18:39 <warren> "(disable the block fetching, and replace it by the wallet itself fetching filtered blocks)" uses bloom?
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 847 2013-10-12 19:18:45 <sipa> yes
 848 2013-10-12 19:18:49 <MC1984> oh its just a more efficient way to bootstrap a new node than the shitty way it does it now. well thats good
 849 2013-10-12 19:19:11 <maaku> MC1984: the connection (i think) is when you consider committed index hashes
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 851 2013-10-12 19:19:36 <MC1984> wut
 852 2013-10-12 19:19:42 <maaku> then you *could* use headers-first to get the hash of the most-work validation index, download that, and then validate backwards
 853 2013-10-12 19:20:04 <maaku> gradually transitioning from SPV to full node security
 854 2013-10-12 19:20:11 <maaku> but that's a lot further off than 0.9
 855 2013-10-12 19:21:12 <sipa> i'm reimplementing all changes i made in my frst headersfirst implementation now as smaller pullreqs
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 857 2013-10-12 19:21:37 <MC1984> well, we need that
 858 2013-10-12 19:21:43 <sipa> so it's not suxh a large patch, and the actual change to implement the behaviour change is smaller
 859 2013-10-12 19:22:14 <MC1984> along with making the chain svelte enough going forward so that most people dont even notice or care its being upgraded to full node
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 861 2013-10-12 19:22:34 <sipa> yeah, it's nice prospect to have that
 862 2013-10-12 19:23:21 <MC1984> id put a stronger point on it that nice myself. but thats just my beliefs
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 868 2013-10-12 19:31:16 <MC1984> "Gavin believes the future of computing
 869 2013-10-12 19:31:16 <MC1984> is mobile and tablets. I don't know about that, but let's assume for the
 870 2013-10-12 19:31:16 <MC1984> sake of argument he turns out to be right. These devices are expected to
 871 2013-10-12 19:31:16 <MC1984> have much longer battery life than laptops. Apps that spin up in the
 872 2013-10-12 19:31:16 <MC1984> background and use battery+radio can easily be seen as "abusive" by end
 873 2013-10-12 19:31:17 <MC1984> users."
 874 2013-10-12 19:31:25 <MC1984> tssk so many line breaks
 875 2013-10-12 19:31:52 patcon has joined
 876 2013-10-12 19:31:54 MoALTz_ has joined
 877 2013-10-12 19:32:05 <MC1984> but oh god hes right, were heading into some sort of thin terminal nightmare becuase batteries havent improved in 2 decades fffffffffff
 878 2013-10-12 19:32:30 <MC1984> graphene cells when??
 879 2013-10-12 19:32:49 <petertodd> MC1984: welcome to the reality that IC moores law scaling is completely unprecidented in human history...
 880 2013-10-12 19:32:59 denom has joined
 881 2013-10-12 19:33:14 <sipa> petertodd: seen https://gist.github.com/sipa/6951837 ?
 882 2013-10-12 19:33:20 <petertodd> MC1984: it's normal for technology to move sloooowly, which is my my analog electronics designs use parts that are 10 years old
 883 2013-10-12 19:33:23 <MC1984> were all living though many things are that unprecedented
 884 2013-10-12 19:33:38 <petertodd> sipa: oh cool!
 885 2013-10-12 19:33:43 <MC1984> THE SINGULARITY IS NEAR
 886 2013-10-12 19:33:50 <MC1984> woops sorry that just slipped out
 887 2013-10-12 19:33:54 <petertodd> MC1984: don't count on it :)
 888 2013-10-12 19:34:20 <sipa> the singularity has been reached long ago
 889 2013-10-12 19:34:30 <petertodd> sipa: you had a chance to use the script in anger yet?
 890 2013-10-12 19:34:33 <sipa> they're just smart enough to not let us realize it
 891 2013-10-12 19:34:46 <petertodd> lol
 892 2013-10-12 19:34:48 <sipa> petertodd: i've tested all parts except the push at the end
 893 2013-10-12 19:35:01 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 894 2013-10-12 19:35:13 <petertodd> sipa: I'd try it out, but I have even less of a reason to use it :P
 895 2013-10-12 19:35:54 <sipa> can you send some tiny pullreq to bitcoin-seeder or something? :p
 896 2013-10-12 19:36:37 <petertodd> sipa: ha, I gotta look into TD's report about testnet acting up, but I've got two deadlines this weekend :/
 897 2013-10-12 19:37:05 <sipa> weekend deadline is worst deadline
 898 2013-10-12 19:37:41 <petertodd> sipa: heh, yup, I was supposed to be down south caving, but someone missed their deadline for getting a car :P
 899 2013-10-12 19:38:14 <MC1984> caving is great
 900 2013-10-12 19:38:40 <petertodd> MC1984: meh, the hipster in me says it was better when it was still underground
 901 2013-10-12 19:38:50 <MC1984> hueehehhe
 902 2013-10-12 19:40:23 <michagogo> sipa: question about https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3085#issuecomment-26202486
 903 2013-10-12 19:40:31 <michagogo> why is 0.8.5 in parentheses?
 904 2013-10-12 19:40:38 <sipa> because it doesn't exist
 905 2013-10-12 19:40:44 <sipa> oops
 906 2013-10-12 19:40:51 <sipa> it does!
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 908 2013-10-12 19:41:39 <sipa> fixed
 909 2013-10-12 19:41:44 denom has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 911 2013-10-12 19:41:54 <michagogo> k :-)
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 913 2013-10-12 19:42:23 <petertodd> sipa: thre's your pull-req
 914 2013-10-12 19:43:53 <sipa> petertodd: and it's merged :)
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 916 2013-10-12 19:44:20 <petertodd> ha, nice
 917 2013-10-12 19:44:31 <petertodd> oh, and reminds me, sign my PGP key :P
 918 2013-10-12 19:44:44 <sipa> i can't remember that i verified it!
 919 2013-10-12 19:45:07 <petertodd> lol, was awhile ago... and you probably don't have an email client that can verify my signatures...
 920 2013-10-12 19:45:27 <petertodd> though you can do git log --show-signature on the bitcoin github and notice all my sigs
 921 2013-10-12 19:45:40 _ingsoc has joined
 922 2013-10-12 19:45:45 * petertodd has a looser definition of verify than the pedants
 923 2013-10-12 19:46:20 * sipa -pedantic
 924 2013-10-12 19:47:02 <petertodd> The real irony with web-of-trust verification, is that for all the effort they go to to make a nice decentralized system, signing parties depend on government issued photo-id...
 925 2013-10-12 19:48:18 <sipa> i'm sure i've mentioned this before, but that's why i think pgp identities should list what authority they claim to link with
 926 2013-10-12 19:48:34 <petertodd> Verification based on "I have a lot of evidence that you're the guy commonly thought of as Peter Todd within my social community" makes far more sense.
 927 2013-10-12 19:48:44 <michagogo> petertodd: Hmm, what kind of verification process would you use for a key that represents a user that's not their government-recognized name?
 928 2013-10-12 19:48:48 <petertodd> Yup, and WoT authority should generally be thought of as social group.
 929 2013-10-12 19:48:58 <sipa> and that could be either "government-issued identity of $COUNTRY", or "github committer $X to project $Y"
 930 2013-10-12 19:49:07 <michagogo> (re: "[22:45:08] <petertodd> The real irony with web-of-trust verification...")
 931 2013-10-12 19:49:29 <petertodd> michagogo: Nothing more than "Is Foo Bar the name people in this social group associate with that rough idea of an identity?"
 932 2013-10-12 19:49:51 <petertodd> michagogo: which means in the case of a name conflict I might very well ask someone to disambiguate themselves in some way in theory
 933 2013-10-12 19:50:51 <michagogo> petertodd: Isn't signing a key supposed to be a statement of "I have verified that this person is who he claims to be"?
 934 2013-10-12 19:51:04 <petertodd> michagogo: define "claims" :P
 935 2013-10-12 19:51:14 <michagogo> "who the key says he is"
 936 2013-10-12 19:51:37 <petertodd> "Hi, my name also happens to be Michagogo, and I don't want to give out my email"
 937 2013-10-12 19:51:52 <michagogo> My point exactly :-P
 938 2013-10-12 19:52:11 <michagogo> hence "[22:46:49] <michagogo> petertodd: Hmm, what kind of verification process would you use for a key that represents a user that's not their government-recognized name?"
 939 2013-10-12 19:52:23 <petertodd> michagogo: common sense
 940 2013-10-12 19:52:42 <petertodd> See, if IRC was PGP signed, I'd happily sign your PGP key at some point.
 941 2013-10-12 19:52:46 <sipa> michagogo: it's all about what identity you claim to have
 942 2013-10-12 19:53:11 <sipa> if you claim your name, as recognized by country X, is Y, then i'll want to see a government-issued id before signing your key
 943 2013-10-12 19:53:42 <sipa> if you claim your registered nick on IRC is X, i'll just ask to verify that you indeed control that nick
 944 2013-10-12 19:54:28 <michagogo> So, would you sign 628ECF0C ?
 945 2013-10-12 19:54:32 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 947 2013-10-12 19:54:59 <Luke-Jr> name/nick are meaningless
 948 2013-10-12 19:55:06 <sipa> eh, no
 949 2013-10-12 19:55:07 <Luke-Jr> multiple people have the same name/country
 950 2013-10-12 19:55:21 <sipa> michagogo: no, i won't sign that
 951 2013-10-12 19:55:21 <Luke-Jr> and it really says nothing about who someone IS
 952 2013-10-12 19:56:13 <Luke-Jr> really, signatures should have comments associated for what they mean
 953 2013-10-12 19:56:43 <Luke-Jr> who sipa is to me: bitcoin expert, bitcoind developer responsible for ultraprune etc
 954 2013-10-12 19:56:56 <Luke-Jr> "Pieter Wuille" is meaningless in itself
 955 2013-10-12 19:56:59 <michagogo> sipa: What would make you change your mind? (note that this is hypothetical -- just using my key as an example, not actually asking you to sign)
 956 2013-10-12 19:57:56 <sipa> michagogo: if the identity (the comment in it), would explicitly say something like "registered nickname michagogo on freenode IRC", i might
 957 2013-10-12 19:58:25 <sipa> as then it's clear that i'm only signing the claim that this key belongs to the one controlling that nickname
 958 2013-10-12 19:58:29 <petertodd> speaking of, this is part of what I used with warren to verify my identity: https://s3.amazonaws.com/peter.todd/pgp-statement.tar.bz2
 959 2013-10-12 19:58:48 <michagogo> Ah, Interesting
 960 2013-10-12 19:59:00 <michagogo> s/I/i/
 961 2013-10-12 19:59:12 <skinnkavaj> Please explain, why do people always say that you should sign a message with an adress? Why isn't enough to send like 0.001 BTC from that adress to prove that you own it?
 962 2013-10-12 19:59:33 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: you can't send coins from addresses at all
 963 2013-10-12 19:59:34 <petertodd> michagogo: I would argue that, in conjunction with other verification, should be enough for you to sign my PGP key.
 964 2013-10-12 19:59:39 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: addresses are only used to recieve
 965 2013-10-12 19:59:56 <sipa> skinnkavaj: why 1) pay  2) burden the network  3) reveal your identity to the entire world
 966 2013-10-12 20:00:11 <sipa> skinnkavaj: signing a message and sending it to the one who cares has none of these disadvantages
 967 2013-10-12 20:00:15 <skinnkavaj> sipa: Don't you have to pay anyway to sign a message? Doesnt it get broadcasted to the network?
 968 2013-10-12 20:00:20 <sipa> no
 969 2013-10-12 20:00:35 <sipa> it's purely local
 970 2013-10-12 20:00:41 <sipa> you do with the signature what you want
 971 2013-10-12 20:01:52 <Luke-Jr> just because a coin had previously been sent to said address previously, also does not prove the sender of the transaction owns that address
 972 2013-10-12 20:02:28 jevin has joined
 973 2013-10-12 20:03:13 <petertodd> ah, and in my pgp-statement.txt I said I timestamped the statement; this is the tx I did it in: ad3d32ae11947ae3f07322dfadcc1c418b529091bffd89c901682ebdb8bd5404
 974 2013-10-12 20:03:51 <petertodd> sipa: there, that should be enough for you to sign my key, lol
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 980 2013-10-12 20:06:28 <michagogo> sipa: So something like that?
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 984 2013-10-12 20:10:12 <petertodd> michagogo: see pm
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 996 2013-10-12 20:25:28 <ThomasV> !seen slush
 997 2013-10-12 20:25:29 <gribble> slush was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 28 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 25 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <slush> not really :(
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1000 2013-10-12 20:41:19 <MC1984_> http://goldbug.sourceforge.net/ anyone know anything about this? Not sure i trust and encrypted comms thing with a cartoon dog..
1001 2013-10-12 20:42:19 <pigeons> i trust cartoon dogs more than cartoon paperclips
1002 2013-10-12 20:43:21 [\\\]_i has joined
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1004 2013-10-12 20:44:56 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1005 2013-10-12 20:46:04 <MC1984_> IT LOOKS LIKE YOURE TRYING TO MAKE A JOKE
1006 2013-10-12 20:49:44 <sipa> http://www.deanliou.com/winrg/
1007 2013-10-12 20:50:07 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: whats your opinion on bitshares?
1008 2013-10-12 20:53:10 <MC1984_> sipa shit i havent seen that for years
1009 2013-10-12 20:54:51 <MC1984_> its a perfect simulation of windows ME. id know.
1010 2013-10-12 20:56:07 <sipa> MC1984_: i switched to linux shortly after winme :
1011 2013-10-12 20:56:09 <sipa> :p
1012 2013-10-12 20:56:11 _Sam--- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1013 2013-10-12 20:56:51 <MC1984_> i tried to opensuse a few years ago but never got wifi working
1014 2013-10-12 20:56:53 <MC1984_> so i gave up
1015 2013-10-12 20:57:10 <sipa> i think it was debian 2.2
1016 2013-10-12 20:58:37 MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: brb)
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1019 2013-10-12 20:59:14 michagogo is now known as Guest11255
1020 2013-10-12 20:59:14 Guest11255 has quit (Killed (hobana.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
1021 2013-10-12 20:59:14 michagogo_ is now known as michagogo
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1027 2013-10-12 21:16:11 <michagogo> sipa: So are the 2 new UIDs I added to 628ECF0C the kind of thing you were talking about?
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1045 2013-10-12 22:17:56 root2_ is now known as root2
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1047 2013-10-12 22:19:30 <sipa> wumpus: there?
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1052 2013-10-12 22:27:59 <sipa> ;;calc [diff]*2**48/65535
1053 2013-10-12 22:28:00 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
1054 2013-10-12 22:28:11 <sipa> ;;diff
1055 2013-10-12 22:28:11 <gribble> 1.8928124928103292E8
1056 2013-10-12 22:28:34 <sipa> ;;calc log([diff])/log(2)+32
1057 2013-10-12 22:28:34 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
1058 2013-10-12 22:30:24 <sipa> ;;calc log(1.8928*10**8*2**48/65535)/log(2)
1059 2013-10-12 22:30:24 <gribble> 59.4959687518
1060 2013-10-12 22:31:41 <sipa> ;;calc 1.8928*10**8*2**32/600*86400*30
1061 2013-10-12 22:31:42 <gribble> 3511950090279321600000
1062 2013-10-12 22:32:15 <sipa> ;;calc log(1.8928*10**8*2**32/600*86400*30)/log(2)
1063 2013-10-12 22:32:16 <gribble> 71.5727623349
1064 2013-10-12 22:34:16 <sipa> oh, we passed 2**72 hashes a month ago
1065 2013-10-12 22:34:47 <sipa> wait, what?
1066 2013-10-12 22:35:53 <gmaxwell> We still haven't beat the lowest hash of 0000000000000000004bb6e7e2661661ba9809062d90c3121933d6d02c8bd763.
1067 2013-10-12 22:36:54 <sipa> ;;calc 2**(72.6968-71.5727)
1068 2013-10-12 22:36:54 <gribble> 2.17965530138
1069 2013-10-12 22:37:15 <sipa> tje entire chain is 2.18 PoW-months now? :o
1070 2013-10-12 22:37:18 <sipa> *the
1071 2013-10-12 22:38:11 <MC1984_> wat
1072 2013-10-12 22:38:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's been fightening like that for a while now.
1073 2013-10-12 22:41:01 <sipa> ;;nethash
1074 2013-10-12 22:41:02 <gribble> 1834299.06352
1075 2013-10-12 22:42:21 <sipa> ;;calc 2**(72.6989-log([nethash]*10**9*86400)/log(2))
1076 2013-10-12 22:42:22 <gribble> 48.3688392051
1077 2013-10-12 22:42:32 <sipa> even worse... 48 days
1078 2013-10-12 22:42:42 <gmaxwell> hm? I get (2^72.697147/(2^72.697147-2^72.696993))/144. = 65.06
1079 2013-10-12 22:43:24 bd_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1080 2013-10-12 22:43:43 <sipa> that's assuming there are 144 blocks per day
1081 2013-10-12 22:43:46 bd_ has joined
1082 2013-10-12 22:43:53 <sipa> there are more now :)
1083 2013-10-12 22:45:32 <gmaxwell> Hm. I think your way is double-counting part of the increase, and my way is not counting part of it. (your way double counts the part thats included int the last difficulty update, any my way doesn't include the increase over that)
1084 2013-10-12 22:45:58 <gmaxwell> oh well actually I dunno what [nethash] comes from.
1085 2013-10-12 22:46:10 <sipa> from my site :)
1086 2013-10-12 22:46:20 <gmaxwell> I retract my complaint then. 48 it is.
1087 2013-10-12 22:46:57 <sipa> that's pretty awful
1088 2013-10-12 22:47:28 MC1984 has joined
1089 2013-10-12 22:47:30 <sipa> i should make a graph of pow-days in the chain over time...
1090 2013-10-12 22:47:40 <gmaxwell> yup, but the awfulness was really there all along it was just easy to pretend that someone couldn't buy a million dollars in chips and rewrite the network when no one had a million dollars in chips yet.
1091 2013-10-12 22:47:51 <sipa> true
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1111 2013-10-12 23:34:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/powdays-50k.png
1112 2013-10-12 23:36:14 <sipa> it's been worse, though: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/powdays-ever.png
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1117 2013-10-12 23:41:34 <sipa> not really the shape i would have expected, really
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1120 2013-10-12 23:43:56 <gmaxwell> I don't quite get the initial part.
1121 2013-10-12 23:44:11 <gmaxwell> like where it hits 1200.. how is that possible?
1122 2013-10-12 23:45:27 <sipa> the 7-day hashrate estimate dropped to ~1 MH/s around august/september 2009
1123 2013-10-12 23:46:14 <gmaxwell> oh right, this is hashrate estimate not difficulty.
1124 2013-10-12 23:46:31 <sipa> perhaps i should use / max(x.hashrate for x in past)
1125 2013-10-12 23:46:36 <gmaxwell> how hard would ... lol
1126 2013-10-12 23:46:52 <gmaxwell> I was going to suggest looking at max hashrate ever.
1127 2013-10-12 23:47:13 <gmaxwell> (er, by ever I mean in the past from each point)
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1129 2013-10-12 23:47:50 <gmaxwell> yea, means that it won't improve during times when the hashrate fell... which I think its a reasonable measure of security, since that other rate could come online.
1130 2013-10-12 23:48:38 MobPhone has joined
1131 2013-10-12 23:48:47 <sipa> ... that looks interesting
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1134 2013-10-12 23:56:18 <warren> how do you define POW-equivalent-days?
1135 2013-10-12 23:59:18 <gmaxwell> These are graphs of  "at day X how long would it take for day X's hashrate to replace the chain (fork from genesis)"
1136 2013-10-12 23:59:21 <sipa> warren: the number of days you would need at the current hashrate, to do as much work as the entire chain