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   9 2013-10-17 00:16:20 <olalonde> how many bits are private keys?
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  13 2013-10-17 00:19:50 <lianj> olalonde: 256
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  21 2013-10-17 00:32:59 <maaku> olalonde: a private key can be fully specified as a 256-bit number. most serialized forms are longer, however...
  22 2013-10-17 00:33:15 <olalonde> thanks
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 102 2013-10-17 04:42:49 <olalonde> if someone sends me a transaction with a random script, will the bitcoins still show up in my balance although my private key alone might not be sufficient to spend the coins?
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 104 2013-10-17 04:43:56 <CodeShark> the script IS what says for whom they are
 105 2013-10-17 04:44:40 <CodeShark> or at least what says how they can be redeemed
 106 2013-10-17 04:44:44 <gmaxwell> olalonde: no. By definition.
 107 2013-10-17 04:45:14 <olalonde> so the bitcoin client makes sure that the coins are spendable before adding up to the balance?
 108 2013-10-17 04:45:37 <olalonde> what if they are spendable by 2 private keys, one of the keys being the one u own
 109 2013-10-17 04:45:50 <CodeShark> pretty much all wallet apps right now look for specific script types
 110 2013-10-17 04:45:55 <gmaxwell> olalonde: as codeshark says, the script is the definition of who the transaction is to. If it isn't a script the wallet specifically reconizes then it's not yours as far as the wallet is concerned.
 111 2013-10-17 04:46:32 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: any competent one always would.  Someone sending you weird scripts would be a great way to rob people if they fell for them, and a great way to send money into a black hole for the sender.
 112 2013-10-17 04:47:02 <olalonde> ok
 113 2013-10-17 04:47:04 <gmaxwell> olalonde: the reciever of funds should always be the party specifying a scriptpubkey. This was more formalized in P2SH but in general its the only sane way to use the system.
 114 2013-10-17 04:47:23 cads has joined
 115 2013-10-17 04:47:44 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: it would be nice to do away with the whole "address" concept and just share the full output script when requesting payment
 116 2013-10-17 04:47:56 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: thats what p2sh does effectively.
 117 2013-10-17 04:48:26 <Luke-Jr> also the payment protocol
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 119 2013-10-17 04:49:13 <gmaxwell> One way to look at it is that the scriptPubKey _is_ the public key, of a somewhat unusual hybridized cryptosystem.  You wouldn't expect your wallet to reconize payments to public keys which it didn't generate, even if the other public keys were 'weak' and 'related' to another key you owned.  E.g. you wouldn't expect it to notice and spend from pubkey + g  though someone could trivially make a wallet that did so.
 120 2013-10-17 04:50:28 toffoo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 122 2013-10-17 04:52:03 <CodeShark> p2sh is sufficiently general to allow for arbitrary scripts - but unfortunately most transactions right now are still p2pubkey hash which uses different opcodes. what I'm saying is that it makes more sense to share the complete output script (base58 encoded or whatever) and forget these address "version" bytes
 123 2013-10-17 04:53:12 <CodeShark> then we have full generality without the need for special cases
 124 2013-10-17 04:53:55 <CodeShark> it's then entirely up to wallets to create output scripts and share them with those sending payments
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 126 2013-10-17 04:55:04 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: and increased problems when idiots mutate your scripts and expect you to still reconize them, and very long addresses which are incompatible with a lot of existing infrastructure, and discrimination against some scripts because it was 'too long'. This was all discussed extensively before the idea of P2SH was hit on as an improvement over that idea.
 127 2013-10-17 04:56:19 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: don't get me wrong - I like the p2sh concept and have been using it a lot myself. point is it seems a bit ugly to have to go through the extra step of checking the version byte and inserting the op codes
 128 2013-10-17 04:56:43 <gmaxwell> compared to base58 decoding?!
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 130 2013-10-17 04:57:02 <CodeShark> the base58 issue is orthogonal to this
 131 2013-10-17 04:57:03 <gmaxwell> (and the crazy sha256 'checksum')
 132 2013-10-17 04:57:25 <CodeShark> the ASCII representation is independent of the underlying binary data
 133 2013-10-17 04:57:45 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I don't think it is at all. P2SH is just a serialized script. You have to go through some procedure to decode it to use it.
 134 2013-10-17 04:58:06 <gmaxwell> The procedure is match version, decode base58, hash, compare hash, wrap with extra bytes.  Now you have a script.
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 136 2013-10-17 04:58:35 <CodeShark> yes, but the rules for mapping the version byte to specific wrapping of the op codes seems like an unnecessary step
 137 2013-10-17 04:59:15 <CodeShark> every time there's any change to these rules it will require client apps to add new cases
 138 2013-10-17 04:59:30 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it's what has allowed us to use a common encoding for totally orthorgonal things like private keys... and also allowed things like litecoin to more or less coexist without failure inducing namespace problems.
 139 2013-10-17 04:59:50 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: the idea of p2sh was to introduce a fully general one which largely removed the need to add a bunch of extra cases.
 140 2013-10-17 05:00:47 <gmaxwell> and to do so without creating additional problem areas like nonconsentual sender side manipulation of scripts, sender side pickyness of script sizes or forms, incompatiblity with copy and paste, etc.
 141 2013-10-17 05:00:57 <CodeShark> the namespace issue could have been solved simply by prefixing the data with something like btc:blahblah vs ltc:blahblah
 142 2013-10-17 05:01:17 robocoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 143 2013-10-17 05:01:41 <CodeShark> in any case, the base58 encodings are only useful for copy/paste
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 146 2013-10-17 05:02:47 <CodeShark> and again, I like the p2sh idea and use it a lot myself. in retrospect perhaps the script should have always operated that way
 147 2013-10-17 05:02:49 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes the version string could have been even longer, but apparently people believed that really short addresses were important. Keep in mind that addresses entirely were introduced as an alternative mechenism for pay to ip when a direct connection couldn't be established.
 148 2013-10-17 05:03:09 <gmaxwell> Yes, at least sipa and I are strongly of the opinion that script always should have operated that way.
 149 2013-10-17 05:03:50 <gmaxwell> and maybe someday in the far future bitcoin will softfork to actually require it on the txout creation side. doesn't seem likely but its possible.
 150 2013-10-17 05:04:22 <CodeShark> oh well…as long as we don't have more proliferation of special script types with their own version byte
 151 2013-10-17 05:04:25 <Luke-Jr> BIP 18 ftw?
 152 2013-10-17 05:04:44 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I don't think we will. But who knows.
 153 2013-10-17 05:04:53 <gmaxwell> I certantly would oppose that with "use p2sh"
 154 2013-10-17 05:05:09 <Luke-Jr> I can imagine preimage-based addresses
 155 2013-10-17 05:05:25 <Luke-Jr> but base58 is annoying, I'd prefer to switch to something else if we did that
 156 2013-10-17 05:05:29 <gmaxwell> but I don't think there would even be a question: add yet another version byte, or use something that some clients can already send to... seems like a nobrainer.
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 260 2013-10-17 08:46:48 <besser82> gmaxwell, warren: You want to get involved with Fedora-community, I heard?
 261 2013-10-17 08:48:21 <warren> besser82: to the extent that we ensure the packaging of bitcoin in fedora is done with cooperation with upstream
 262 2013-10-17 08:48:23 <warren> jgarzik: ^
 263 2013-10-17 08:48:29 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 264 2013-10-17 08:48:39 <warren> besser82: I'll note that I wrote the original fedora packaging guidelines. =)
 265 2013-10-17 08:48:40 <TD> lol
 266 2013-10-17 08:48:52 * TD remembers when warren CREATED fedora
 267 2013-10-17 08:49:08 <TD> small world, we've all been around too long i guess ...
 268 2013-10-17 08:49:10 <warren> TD: were you around in fedora dev back then?
 269 2013-10-17 08:49:25 <TD> no, but i was a red hat user at the time, and remember using the first fedora repos
 270 2013-10-17 08:49:45 <TD> then eventually i decided linux packaging sucked and spent a few years building a cross-distro installer framework :)
 271 2013-10-17 08:49:53 <jgarzik> small world indeed :)
 272 2013-10-17 08:50:14 <besser82> warren, TD: sry, then I misinterpreted warren's msg on #fedora-devel  :(
 273 2013-10-17 08:50:20 <sipa> TD: i heard you wanted to know more about bitcoinj?
 274 2013-10-17 08:50:52 <TD> bitcoinj, you say? https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2571927616/mmb9qajq9swpi8xxy76a.jpeg
 275 2013-10-17 08:51:18 <sipa> haha
 276 2013-10-17 08:51:30 <warren> besser82: I haven't seen your name before.  are you a package maintainer?
 277 2013-10-17 08:51:39 <sipa> besser82: it doesn't make what you heard any less true :)
 278 2013-10-17 08:52:04 <xiangfu> MagicalTux: Hi
 279 2013-10-17 08:52:40 <xiangfu> MagicalTux: (About the bitcoin wiki) I try to create a CHinese version wiki page. but it said I don't have right to create new page
 280 2013-10-17 08:54:05 <sipa> xiangfu: you need to pay a 0.01 fee for edit rights (it's an anti-spam feature)
 281 2013-10-17 08:54:19 <sipa> the fee could be lowered now though, imho
 282 2013-10-17 08:54:20 <xiangfu> I already paid that.
 283 2013-10-17 08:54:24 Someguy123 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 284 2013-10-17 08:54:36 <xiangfu> sipa: I can edit the English page without any problem.
 285 2013-10-17 08:54:39 <sipa> ah
 286 2013-10-17 08:55:28 <warren> who are the other wiki admins now?
 287 2013-10-17 08:55:31 <warren> there were more than one
 288 2013-10-17 08:55:45 <MagicalTux> xiangfu, the bitcoin thing fee is per language
 289 2013-10-17 08:55:58 <xiangfu> MagicalTux: ok.
 290 2013-10-17 08:56:13 <xiangfu> MagicalTux: how do I pay another language?
 291 2013-10-17 08:57:11 Someguy123 has joined
 292 2013-10-17 09:00:56 <xiangfu> MagicalTux: thanks for reply
 293 2013-10-17 09:01:05 <xiangfu> there is one way is create a whole new account. :)
 294 2013-10-17 09:01:23 <xiangfu> but I want use the same account.
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 298 2013-10-17 09:04:30 <besser82> warren: I'm packager-sponsor and proovenpackager  ;)
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 301 2013-10-17 09:05:31 <besser82> sipa:  So you (or possibly someone you know) want to get involved?!?
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 304 2013-10-17 09:06:20 <sipa> hmm, i know nothing about fedora or distro packaging in general :)
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 310 2013-10-17 09:06:52 <besser82> sipa: Knowledge can be gained, I heard somewhen...  :-P
 311 2013-10-17 09:07:04 <MagicalTux> xiangfu, actually let me give you the rights directly, what's your login? (also discussions regarding the bitcoin wiki should be done on #bitcoin-wiki )
 312 2013-10-17 09:07:28 <xiangfu> MagicalTux: thanks very much. the account is 'xiangfu'
 313 2013-10-17 09:07:44 <xiangfu> MagicalTux: (#bitcoin-wiki) ok. got it.
 314 2013-10-17 09:07:52 <sipa> besser82: takes time though, and i'm already spending enough time on bitcoin :)
 315 2013-10-17 09:08:06 <besser82> sipa: Allrighty, then  ;)
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 321 2013-10-17 09:09:25 <warren> besser82: do you know if anyone is talking about doing a bitcoin package?
 322 2013-10-17 09:09:44 <warren> besser82: primarily I don't have time to watch all package reviews, so if it happens we need to be notified
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 325 2013-10-17 09:11:01 <besser82> warren: afaik, there's bfgminer currently...  But I think you commented on it within the last days...
 326 2013-10-17 09:11:04 <besser82> warren: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=988997
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 328 2013-10-17 09:12:29 <warren> besser82: that isn't related to the reasons bitcoin was impossible before
 329 2013-10-17 09:12:55 <warren> besser82: I could be wrong, but I think cgminer and bfgminer needs to be built againts non-open ADL something
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 332 2013-10-17 09:16:21 <sipa> well you can disable opencl support
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 335 2013-10-17 09:17:54 <besser82> sipa: disable openCL for what reason?
 336 2013-10-17 09:18:32 <sipa> so you don't need to link with non-open libraries
 337 2013-10-17 09:19:15 <sipa> (not sure whether that's the case, or if it's a problem, but disabling opencl certainly avoids it)
 338 2013-10-17 09:19:16 <besser82> sipa: Fedora already has some FOSS openCL implementation  ;)
 339 2013-10-17 09:19:38 <besser82> sipa: atleast for the upcoming F20  ;)
 340 2013-10-17 09:19:49 <sipa> ok
 341 2013-10-17 09:20:35 <sipa> i don't know enough about the issue, just saying it can be avoided
 342 2013-10-17 09:20:53 <sipa> and gpu mining seems less and less useful anyway
 343 2013-10-17 09:21:10 <sipa> ;;genrate 600
 344 2013-10-17 09:21:12 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 267731249.482, is 0.00112704030793 BTC per day and 4.69600128303e-05 BTC per hour.
 345 2013-10-17 09:21:44 <sipa> ;;calc 300/1000*24*0.2
 346 2013-10-17 09:21:45 <gribble> 1.44
 347 2013-10-17 09:23:30 <warren> sipa: ADL != opencl
 348 2013-10-17 09:24:05 <warren> ADL is the part where it can read/write GPU freq, voltage, memory clock, temperature, etc.
 349 2013-10-17 09:24:44 t7 has joined
 350 2013-10-17 09:24:56 <warren> sipa: probably most people using opencl these days are scrypt miners.
 351 2013-10-17 09:25:13 <warren> besser82: in any case people here aren't concerned with the mining apps that were possible to include in fedora years ago
 352 2013-10-17 09:27:06 skinnkavaj has joined
 353 2013-10-17 09:27:13 <sipa> warren: sorry, i ahould have said "disable gpu support" rather than opencl specifically
 354 2013-10-17 09:27:43 <sipa> ah, and not sure about scrypt mining
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 374 2013-10-17 10:08:25 <sipa> ;;genrate 60000
 375 2013-10-17 10:08:26 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 60000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 267731249.482, is 0.112704030793 BTC per day and 0.00469600128303 BTC per hour.
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 407 2013-10-17 12:00:37 <besser82> warren: bitcoin-review: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1020292  Got just reported...
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 433 2013-10-17 13:04:55 <jouke> Hmm, I guess you should not run two nodes on one machine that both -connect to the same nodes.
 434 2013-10-17 13:04:58 <jouke> They'll get banned.
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 454 2013-10-17 13:22:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jouke: s/ that both.*//
 455 2013-10-17 13:22:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Why would you need to run 2 nodes on the same machine?)
 456 2013-10-17 13:23:05 <jouke> because I want to have two seperate wallets.
 457 2013-10-17 13:23:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Have you considered an alternate client?
 458 2013-10-17 13:24:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Since 2 nodes also means every bit of processing and storage needs to be doubled...
 459 2013-10-17 13:24:51 <c0rw1n> double the storage why? just symlink the blockchain ...
 460 2013-10-17 13:24:59 bitRipperX has joined
 461 2013-10-17 13:25:23 <jouke> c0rw1n: that is not possible.
 462 2013-10-17 13:25:55 <jouke> michagogo|cloud: there are no other clients that provide the functionality of the reference client (and work as good imo)
 463 2013-10-17 13:25:58 <c0rw1n> oh yes ok right
 464 2013-10-17 13:26:22 <jouke> But storage and processing power is not a problem.
 465 2013-10-17 13:28:03 wei_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 467 2013-10-17 13:28:34 <jouke> Those nodes don't listen to connections, but I want them to connect to some other nodes I own (and trust).
 468 2013-10-17 13:29:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, in that case, you could always patch your other nodes
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 473 2013-10-17 13:36:53 <jouke> I don't really know why they get banned: http://pastebin.com/Mi4N7csG
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 475 2013-10-17 13:37:24 <jouke> They don't get banned from my third node on that same server (127.0.0.1)
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 519 2013-10-17 15:07:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jouke: I'd imagine localhost has some kind of special-casing
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 523 2013-10-17 15:13:53 <sipa> indeed, 127.0.0.1 clients don't get banned
 524 2013-10-17 15:14:00 <sipa> which is a problem for tor peers
 525 2013-10-17 15:14:24 <sipa> i've been thinking about listening on several ports, and marking one as 'whitelisted'
 526 2013-10-17 15:14:45 <sipa> which is exempt for banning, and whose transactions are always forwarded, ...
 527 2013-10-17 15:17:32 ericmuyser has joined
 528 2013-10-17 15:18:14 <jouke> sipa: that would be awesome. But why are my nodes getting banned at the moment? The "receiving" node can't tell the difference?
 529 2013-10-17 15:19:57 <sipa> ah, the vin empty problem
 530 2013-10-17 15:20:11 <sipa> we've seen some nodes broadcast such weird transactions
 531 2013-10-17 15:21:46 <jouke> But these are nodes that don't relay transactions. (altough I copied the blocks directory from an other node)
 532 2013-10-17 15:22:16 <sipa> likely related to something strange in their wallets
 533 2013-10-17 15:22:35 <jouke> This was a new wallet.
 534 2013-10-17 15:23:41 denom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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 537 2013-10-17 15:26:22 <jouke> some other parts of the debug.log with other errors: http://pastebin.com/UvLtvEYD
 538 2013-10-17 15:27:12 swulf-- has joined
 539 2013-10-17 15:28:10 <sipa> those are not DoSable offences
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 541 2013-10-17 15:30:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: do multiple connections from one address cause a ban, though?
 542 2013-10-17 15:30:51 <jouke> The vin empty problem does indeed seem to be the only reason to raise the ban level.
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 545 2013-10-17 15:37:17 <sipa> jouke: yes, it does; it's a completely invalid transaction
 546 2013-10-17 15:47:45 <jouke> I am not saying it isn't. But ok, so our wallet is creating invalid transactions it seems?
 547 2013-10-17 15:48:55 <jgarzik> Was the cause of vin-empty ever found?
 548 2013-10-17 15:52:40 <sipa> not afaik
 549 2013-10-17 15:52:43 eoss has joined
 550 2013-10-17 15:52:54 <sipa> jouke: creates, or just contains for some weird reason
 551 2013-10-17 15:53:11 <sipa> these are transaction the wallet itself wouldn't consider valid
 552 2013-10-17 15:53:37 <jouke> Well, our wallet isn't a listening node.
 553 2013-10-17 15:53:42 cald has joined
 554 2013-10-17 15:54:09 <jouke> Should I be able to see something in the debug.log of that wallet-node.
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 559 2013-10-17 15:57:55 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: we determined that some people had some kind of wallet corruption that caused their wallets to transmit them. I don't believe we ever found the cause of that corruption.
 560 2013-10-17 15:59:14 * sipa wonders whether phantomcircuit's no-vtxPrev patch will patch it magically
 561 2013-10-17 15:59:24 <sipa> s/patch it/fix it/
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 563 2013-10-17 16:00:46 <jouke> Should I consider creating a new wallet?
 564 2013-10-17 16:01:16 <maaku> we ran into a similar problem in #freicoin - wallets constructing invalid transactions
 565 2013-10-17 16:02:00 <maaku> it would be nice if CreateTransaction verified the transaction being generated, before returning it...
 566 2013-10-17 16:02:21 <maaku> just as a sanity check
 567 2013-10-17 16:02:46 <gmaxwell> we do validate the signature after signing.
 568 2013-10-17 16:02:54 crank has joined
 569 2013-10-17 16:03:14 <gmaxwell> Doubt its similar, as its creating a basically empty transaction.
 570 2013-10-17 16:03:25 patcon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 571 2013-10-17 16:03:53 <maaku> No, it's not, it had to do with #freicoin's referenece-height values
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 573 2013-10-17 16:04:06 <gmaxwell> but yea, checking isn't bad.
 574 2013-10-17 16:04:13 <sipa> i'm thinking about some mapWallet[x] call where x is a non-existing hash
 575 2013-10-17 16:04:59 <maaku> But the problem that the wallet got obviously invalid transactions in it, which it kept broadcasting (resulting in DoS bans) and which 'tied up' funds that had to be recovered with a double-spend (not easy for most users)
 576 2013-10-17 16:05:09 <maaku> Which appears to be the same here
 577 2013-10-17 16:05:18 <jouke> Today it has been trying to broadcast that transaction on and on.
 578 2013-10-17 16:05:32 <sipa> from what we've seen, these transactions are completely empty
 579 2013-10-17 16:05:34 <jouke> well, 15 times so far.
 580 2013-10-17 16:05:38 <sipa> so just CTransaction()
 581 2013-10-17 16:05:44 <sipa> which means it doesn't consume any inputs either
 582 2013-10-17 16:05:45 <maaku> sipa: ah
 583 2013-10-17 16:05:56 <sipa> and can't tie up any funds
 584 2013-10-17 16:06:32 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 585 2013-10-17 16:06:39 <weex> what's the best way to make bitcoind run without connecting to the network? -maxconnections=0? a bogus proxy address?
 586 2013-10-17 16:06:41 <maaku> Then unrelated. But if i get a chance i'll try my hand at a validating CreateTransaction patch anyway
 587 2013-10-17 16:07:12 <sipa> weex: -connect=0.0.0.0
 588 2013-10-17 16:07:19 Application has joined
 589 2013-10-17 16:07:22 <weex> ok thanks sipa
 590 2013-10-17 16:07:49 <jouke> would the bogus transactions show up in pywallet?
 591 2013-10-17 16:08:03 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 592 2013-10-17 16:09:13 <ryan-c> sipa: with -nolisten? (I was asking that in #bitcoin)
 593 2013-10-17 16:10:28 <jouke> -listen=0
 594 2013-10-17 16:10:34 <ryan-c> I'm wanting a way to do offline trasaction generation and signing. I was trying to use the sx tools, but I can't wrap my head around how the heck the sign-input command is support to work.
 595 2013-10-17 16:12:06 <ryan-c> oh, well if I read this... http://sx.dyne.org/offlinetx.html
 596 2013-10-17 16:14:31 <jouke> Hmmm, couldn't I just create a tunnel to the other node and let it connect through that?
 597 2013-10-17 16:15:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ryan-c: seems simple enough
 598 2013-10-17 16:15:46 <ryan-c> but createrawtransaction/signrawtransaction is easier
 599 2013-10-17 16:16:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, sx mxtx seems equally easy/hard as createrawtransaction
 600 2013-10-17 16:17:13 <ryan-c> yeah, mktx is about the same as createrawtransaction (possibly easier since you don't have to screw with json)
 601 2013-10-17 16:18:14 <ryan-c> but when i use signrawtransaction, I only need the raw transaction and the private key, not this rawscript thing
 602 2013-10-17 16:18:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, signrawtransaction needs the scriptPubKey of the input
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 604 2013-10-17 16:19:08 <ryan-c> does it?
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 606 2013-10-17 16:19:21 <ryan-c> but it just grabs it from the blockchain?
 607 2013-10-17 16:19:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, that or the mempool
 608 2013-10-17 16:19:50 <ryan-c> ah, i see
 609 2013-10-17 16:19:58 <sipa> from the utxo set, actually :)
 610 2013-10-17 16:20:02 <sipa> (iirc)
 611 2013-10-17 16:20:13 <ryan-c> so sx would be better then, since if bitcoind won't be online to have that information
 612 2013-10-17 16:20:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's make sense
 613 2013-10-17 16:20:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ryan-c: you can provide it
 614 2013-10-17 16:20:29 <sipa> you can provide it in the RPC too
 615 2013-10-17 16:20:35 <michagogo> signrawtransaction <hex string> [{"txid":txid,"vout":n,"scriptPubKey":hex,"redeemScript":hex},...] [<privatekey1>,...] [sighashtype="ALL"]
 616 2013-10-17 16:20:41 <michagogo> Second optional argument (may be null) is an array of previous transaction outputs that
 617 2013-10-17 16:20:41 <michagogo> this transaction depends on but may not yet be in the block chain.
 618 2013-10-17 16:20:42 <ryan-c> sipa: I was just looking at the watch-only wallet patch on github last night, do i recall correctly that you updated it?
 619 2013-10-17 16:20:51 <sipa> not recently
 620 2013-10-17 16:21:03 <michagogo> Hm, what's "redeemScript" for in the second argument?
 621 2013-10-17 16:22:25 <ryan-c> sipa: will it explode in my face if i try to use it?
 622 2013-10-17 16:22:36 <sipa> likely :)
 623 2013-10-17 16:22:42 <ryan-c> :-(
 624 2013-10-17 16:22:48 <sipa> ah, watch-only wallets
 625 2013-10-17 16:22:53 <sipa> no, i think it works fine
 626 2013-10-17 16:22:57 <sipa> but the interface may change
 627 2013-10-17 16:23:04 <sipa> of course, use at your own risk
 628 2013-10-17 16:23:05 <ryan-c> 'interface'?
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 630 2013-10-17 16:23:15 <sipa> how they're presented
 631 2013-10-17 16:23:29 <sipa> (whether or not they're counted in getbalance, ...)
 632 2013-10-17 16:23:38 <ryan-c> ah
 633 2013-10-17 16:23:44 <ryan-c> i don't care about getbalance
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 635 2013-10-17 16:24:10 <sipa> or whether they're listed by default
 636 2013-10-17 16:24:13 <sipa> or whatever really
 637 2013-10-17 16:24:33 <sipa> or whether you'll be able to have a mixed wallet
 638 2013-10-17 16:24:39 <michagogo> What's the "redeemScript" key in the hash in the optional array of previous txouts for the second argument for the sendrawtransaction?
 639 2013-10-17 16:24:44 <michagogo> er, s/end/ign/
 640 2013-10-17 16:25:24 <ryan-c> my intended setup is: add address with importaddress, have walletnotify run script when they get coins, script gets data with gettrasaction, transaction data is ferried to an offline signing system
 641 2013-10-17 16:25:26 <michagogo> (or whatever it's called in JSON -- I know Ruby calls it a hash)
 642 2013-10-17 16:25:27 <sipa> the actual script, in case the input consumes a P2SH output
 643 2013-10-17 16:25:37 <michagogo> Ah
 644 2013-10-17 16:25:41 <ryan-c> it sounds like none of that stuff is likely to change?
 645 2013-10-17 16:25:49 <sipa> ryan-c: probably not
 646 2013-10-17 16:26:06 <michagogo> sipa: if it's a pay to pubkey hash, do you need to provide the redeemscript?
 647 2013-10-17 16:26:07 <sipa> but i wouldn't advise running it in production...
 648 2013-10-17 16:26:21 <sipa> michagogo: yes
 649 2013-10-17 16:26:28 <sipa> michagogo: not if it's in your own wallet
 650 2013-10-17 16:26:33 <sipa> (addmultisig, ...)
 651 2013-10-17 16:26:38 <ryan-c> sipa: any suggestion for what i could do instead in production?
 652 2013-10-17 16:27:29 <sipa> ryan-c: it's a non-released, old patch for a non-released, old version of a development branch
 653 2013-10-17 16:27:50 <michagogo> sipa: how exactly does that work with multisig and addmultisig and create multisig?
 654 2013-10-17 16:27:58 <michagogo> That's never really been clear to me
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 656 2013-10-17 16:28:18 <sipa> ryan-c: unless you have the private keys too, in which case you can just encrypt the wallet with a random passphrase and never transfer the passphrase to the watch system
 657 2013-10-17 16:28:28 <ryan-c> sipa: I can probably forward port the patch?
 658 2013-10-17 16:28:32 <sipa> there isn't really any equivalent functionality in the reference client
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 660 2013-10-17 16:29:04 <ryan-c> sipa: I have private keys, but I don't want them in the on-network system, and I will need to add more keys regularly
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 662 2013-10-17 16:29:32 <sipa> ryan-c: right, you'd need to re-export and re-encrypt the wallet every time
 663 2013-10-17 16:29:40 <sipa> but you can easily put 10000 keys in it in advance
 664 2013-10-17 16:29:50 <michagogo> or just make a big keyp- yeah
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 666 2013-10-17 16:31:41 <michagogo> Hmm, is there anything that tells you the redeemscript for pay-to-pubkey-hash?
 667 2013-10-17 16:32:01 <michagogo> Since createmultisig returns both the p2sh address and the redeemscript
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 669 2013-10-17 16:34:43 <ryan-c> sipa: can you see anything worse than 'stuff stops working until manually fixed' with my plan using the watch-only patch? e.g. coins destroyed?
 670 2013-10-17 16:36:31 <michagogo> ryan-c: Well, if the patched client doesn't ever see the privkey, how will it destroy coins? :-P
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 672 2013-10-17 16:42:09 <phantomcircuit> <jgarzik> Was the cause of vin-empty ever found?
 673 2013-10-17 16:42:10 <phantomcircuit> what?
 674 2013-10-17 16:42:17 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sipa ?
 675 2013-10-17 16:47:36 <ryan-c> michagogo: yeah, that's my thinking...
 676 2013-10-17 16:51:05 <midnightmagic> interesting tool: http://www.mitre.org/work/cybersecurity/blog/cyber_tools_butterworth used to help discover a persistent malware that infected dragos ruiu's machine: https://twitter.com/dragosr/status/390239699597393920
 677 2013-10-17 16:51:33 <midnightmagic> OOB signalling via HF soundcard-soundcard comms..
 678 2013-10-17 16:51:53 <midnightmagic> 'your airgap that you airgapped isn't gapped enough'
 679 2013-10-17 16:51:57 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I'm reading the tweets and I'm concerned that he has lost his mind rather than actually having malware. :(
 680 2013-10-17 16:52:42 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: lol sure hope so
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 683 2013-10-17 16:55:30 <Eliel> midnightmagic: that link gives me 404
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 689 2013-10-17 17:07:15 <warren> sipa: fedora began reviewing bitcoin and they're upset about the included leveldb.  I notice that Luke-Jr patches bitcoin to link against the system library.  I thought upsream's position was the database is too critical from a consistency point of view for that?
 690 2013-10-17 17:08:32 <Luke-Jr> warren: packagers can use system leveldb, but doing so safely *needs* appropriate care
 691 2013-10-17 17:08:39 <Luke-Jr> most distros aren't willing to give that care
 692 2013-10-17 17:09:00 <Luke-Jr> in particular, they need to lock leveldb to known-good versions (not even doing bugfixes), and disable snappy support
 693 2013-10-17 17:09:37 <warren> I thought leveldb in bitcoin was effectively a fork
 694 2013-10-17 17:09:43 <warren> I really suggested renaming it
 695 2013-10-17 17:09:57 <Luke-Jr> so, the leveldb maintainer must be willing to do the work
 696 2013-10-17 17:10:05 <Luke-Jr> only on Windows
 697 2013-10-17 17:10:27 <Luke-Jr> and I think upstream leveldb might have merged that by now
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 702 2013-10-17 17:18:28 <midnightmagic> Eliel: which one? the mitre link?  I can't access it, it's not responding at all for me.
 703 2013-10-17 17:20:44 <Eliel> midnightmagic: yes, the mitre link
 704 2013-10-17 17:21:24 <midnightmagic> Eliel: Sorry, I was linking from the blackhat link about copernicus.
 705 2013-10-17 17:22:05 <midnightmagic> Eliel: er..  I meant toorcon: http://sandiego.toorcon.net/seminars/
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 708 2013-10-17 17:22:36 <midnightmagic> http://www.mitre.org/work/cybersecurity/blog/cyber_tools_butterworth.html
 709 2013-10-17 17:22:48 <midnightmagic> my android nexus was hard to c&p with
 710 2013-10-17 17:22:52 <midnightmagic> Eliel:  ^^
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 712 2013-10-17 17:25:38 <jgarzik> warren, leveldb is included in bitcoin to avoid forks
 713 2013-10-17 17:26:05 <jgarzik> warren, we are sync'd with leveldb upstream 1.13 at present, IIRC, though there may be Windows stuff included
 714 2013-10-17 17:26:25 <jgarzik> warren, https://github.com/bitcoin/leveldb
 715 2013-10-17 17:26:26 <Eliel> jgarzik: careful, you're not using the word fork with the same meaning as warren was. (I think)
 716 2013-10-17 17:26:36 <jgarzik> Eliel, correct
 717 2013-10-17 17:27:05 <jgarzik> warren, there is a large danger of distros updating leveldb, and breaking consensus
 718 2013-10-17 17:27:12 <jgarzik> warren, and that is fundamental to bitcoin's operation
 719 2013-10-17 17:27:34 <jgarzik> warren, so even if our leveldb and distro leveldb are equivalent, that danger remains
 720 2013-10-17 17:28:04 <jgarzik> warren, if you want to copy me in discussions...
 721 2013-10-17 17:28:16 <gmaxwell> Basically leveldb doesn't make promises quite as strong as the ones we need.
 722 2013-10-17 17:28:33 <gmaxwell> We need a promise not to fix bugs that could disrupt the bitcoin consensus.
 723 2013-10-17 17:29:11 <gmaxwell> E.g. you can't fix any bug that causes a silent determinstic failure to store or retrieve a record.
 724 2013-10-17 17:29:27 djcoin_ has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
 725 2013-10-17 17:29:46 <gmaxwell> Fixing bugs that fail with crash is less bad. (might cause a network wide outage, but won't cause history to fork).
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 727 2013-10-17 17:31:16 <gmaxwell> (determinstic in this case being something like "large number of systems who have observed identical or substantially identical database updates make the same mistake")
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 737 2013-10-17 17:39:52 <sipa> warren: if you can link against a specific leveldb version, and know for sure that for example a leveldb bugfix _wont_ be backported without incrementing the version number, using system leveldb sounds fine to me
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 739 2013-10-17 17:40:25 <sipa> if there is a bug that, when fixing, would cause a consensus risk, we probably already have a problem
 740 2013-10-17 17:40:43 <sipa> warren: but leveldb 1.13 on linux is identical to upstream 1.13
 741 2013-10-17 17:40:52 <sipa> (apart from not linking in snappy support, afaik)
 742 2013-10-17 17:41:56 <sipa> warren: there is no need btw for a leveldb to not have snappy, we don't use the feature from the caller side
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 744 2013-10-17 17:42:10 <sipa> it's just a dependency improvement for us
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 750 2013-10-17 17:59:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: fedora backports bug fixes without incrementing the version number.
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 758 2013-10-17 18:15:01 <midnightmagic> and here is your en-happying music for the day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u8V5w8aF6g
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 766 2013-10-17 18:32:21 <jgarzik> hum
 767 2013-10-17 18:32:27 <jgarzik> testnet blocks are appearing somewhat rapidly
 768 2013-10-17 18:32:51 <michagogo> I guess someone's pointing an asic at it or something
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 773 2013-10-17 18:35:07 <BenderCoin> Hi... just curious  if anyone knew A: how many inputs and outputs were allowed in a single Bitcoin transaction? and B: What is the maximum theoretical transaction size that would be possible at the moment. (Would that not be pretty much the size of the current max blocksize if 1 transaction was to fill up all the space of a single block? Thanks...
 774 2013-10-17 18:35:40 <jgarzik> No easy answer, as there are several limits
 775 2013-10-17 18:35:45 <jgarzik> e.g. sigops
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 777 2013-10-17 18:37:35 <gmaxwell> BenderCoin: allowed by what? Policy or network rule?
 778 2013-10-17 18:37:47 <gmaxwell> Current popular nodes will not relay transactions >100k in size.
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 780 2013-10-17 18:40:00 <sipa> the theoretical maximum size for a transaction is 999919 bytes :)
 781 2013-10-17 18:41:53 <sipa> gmaxwell: and orphans are limited to 5k iirc
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 786 2013-10-17 18:42:28 <anton000> hey
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 788 2013-10-17 18:42:49 <anton000> was wondering any stich on bitcoin to stop it from connecting to nodes?
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 790 2013-10-17 18:43:06 <sipa> -connect=0.0.0.0
 791 2013-10-17 18:43:17 <anton000> thnx
 792 2013-10-17 18:43:17 <BenderCoin> gmaxwell, re: policy or network, more network rather than miner policy, q's answered thanks guys.
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 824 2013-10-17 19:31:59 <gmaxwell> [OT] Some grad student is running a nice and boring survey for bitcoin users: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/bitcoinsurvey
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 934 2013-10-17 21:56:44 <jakov> it seems nothing much has been happning to BIP0038 (password protected private keys) since early 2013
 935 2013-10-17 21:57:00 <jakov> did the huge boom take peoples minds off it?
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 937 2013-10-17 22:04:22 <olalonde> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Addresses the algorithm here seems deterministic and doesn't explain how come it is possible to have multiple addresses for the same private key
 938 2013-10-17 22:04:51 <olalonde> how come is it possible to have multiple public addresses for the same private key?
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 941 2013-10-17 22:08:51 <michagogo> olalonde: There are 2 ways (compressed and uncompressed) to represent the public key
 942 2013-10-17 22:09:08 <michagogo> Each of those ways has an address
 943 2013-10-17 22:09:24 <olalonde> that would still give only a total of 2 public addresses by private key no?
 944 2013-10-17 22:09:37 <olalonde> my understanding was that a private key could have a large number of public addresses
 945 2013-10-17 22:10:09 <michagogo> That's incorrect.
 946 2013-10-17 22:10:19 <michagogo> You may be talking about deterministic wallets
 947 2013-10-17 22:10:26 <olalonde> oh ok
 948 2013-10-17 22:10:32 <michagogo> where a seed is used to deterministically generate an infinite series of privkeys
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 950 2013-10-17 22:10:59 <olalonde> so when bitcoin-qt creates new public addresses for example, it also creates a corresponding private key
 951 2013-10-17 22:11:14 <olalonde> creates a new public address*
 952 2013-10-17 22:12:30 <olalonde> so there is really a mapping of 1 privkey <---> 1 public address in practice?
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 955 2013-10-17 22:13:47 <CodeShark> I really wish the term "address" hadn't made it into the bitcoin lexicon like it did :p
 956 2013-10-17 22:14:05 <CodeShark> it's a huge source of confusion
 957 2013-10-17 22:14:13 <michagogo> olalonde: Assuming all compressed or all uncompresses pubkeys, yes.
 958 2013-10-17 22:14:19 <michagogo> uncompressed*
 959 2013-10-17 22:14:25 <olalonde> ok
 960 2013-10-17 22:14:41 <CodeShark> actually, there's a many to one mapping, michagogo
 961 2013-10-17 22:14:44 <olalonde> that makes more sense actually
 962 2013-10-17 22:15:09 <CodeShark> privkeys are 33 bits - addresses are 20 bits
 963 2013-10-17 22:15:12 <CodeShark> pigeonhole principle
 964 2013-10-17 22:15:20 <olalonde> so when counting your balance, the client is just scanning the blockchain for spendable outputs at your address
 965 2013-10-17 22:15:28 <olalonde> at repeats the process for all your privkeys
 966 2013-10-17 22:15:33 <olalonde> or something like that right?
 967 2013-10-17 22:15:43 <olalonde> and repeats*
 968 2013-10-17 22:15:51 <CodeShark> balance is computed by adding up all the unspent outputs redeemable using keys in the wallet
 969 2013-10-17 22:16:30 <CodeShark> *pubkeys are 33 bits - addresses are 20 bits
 970 2013-10-17 22:16:30 <helo> which is just when 'address' is in your wallet
 971 2013-10-17 22:17:19 <CodeShark> argh - bytes, not bits :p
 972 2013-10-17 22:17:39 <CodeShark> point is there are multiple public keys that will hash to the same address
 973 2013-10-17 22:17:59 <CodeShark> however, finding an example is considered to be extremely difficult
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 975 2013-10-17 22:18:14 <helo> and extremely hazardous to bitcoin's existence, iirc
 976 2013-10-17 22:18:23 <CodeShark> hazardous?
 977 2013-10-17 22:18:28 <michagogo> Yeah, but that's 160 bits
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 979 2013-10-17 22:18:33 <michagogo> ;;calc 2**160
 980 2013-10-17 22:18:33 <gribble> 1461501637330902918203684832716283019655932542976
 981 2013-10-17 22:19:15 <helo> CodeShark: hard fork yadda yadda
 982 2013-10-17 22:19:20 <michagogo> ;;calc 2**160/10000000/60/60/24/365
 983 2013-10-17 22:19:20 <gribble> 4634391290369427155694835134889984
 984 2013-10-17 22:19:36 <michagogo> That's how many years it would take to generate all the addresses
 985 2013-10-17 22:19:43 <CodeShark> finding a sha256(ripemd160) collision is considered to be beyond the capabilities of modern hardware - and the probability of one arising accidentally is negligible in practice
 986 2013-10-17 22:19:46 <michagogo> if you can do 10 Mkey/s
 987 2013-10-17 22:20:00 <michagogo> CodeShark: I think it's the other way around
 988 2013-10-17 22:20:09 <CodeShark> what's the other way around?
 989 2013-10-17 22:20:13 <michagogo> ripemd160(sha256)
 990 2013-10-17 22:20:13 <helo> yes, no need for alarm
 991 2013-10-17 22:20:39 <CodeShark> err, yes, ripemd160(sha256(pubkey))
 992 2013-10-17 22:20:54 <jakov> if you had the computing power to do it, it would be far more profitable to just mine
 993 2013-10-17 22:21:00 <michagogo> Indeed :-P
 994 2013-10-17 22:21:12 <michagogo> although you'd very quickly send difficulty skyrocketing
 995 2013-10-17 22:21:57 <jakov> most of the hashpower would be owned by you
 996 2013-10-17 22:22:08 <CodeShark> helo: even if a collision were found, it wouldn't lead to a fork. it would just mean two different private keys could be used to redeem the same bitcoins
 997 2013-10-17 22:22:36 <jakov> anyway, does anyone know why BIP0038 hasnt been worked on much since early 2013? is there a flaw or something
 998 2013-10-17 22:22:44 <jakov> or did the boom in april just take peoples minds off it
 999 2013-10-17 22:22:59 <jakov> BIP0038 is password protected private keys and similar stuff
1000 2013-10-17 22:23:58 <CodeShark> why is everyone so gung ho on base58check?
1001 2013-10-17 22:24:18 <jakov> what do you mean by gung ho?
1002 2013-10-17 22:24:44 <CodeShark> the only real practical use for base58check is manual copy/paste
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1004 2013-10-17 22:25:03 <CodeShark> for everything else we should be using binary formats
1005 2013-10-17 22:25:42 <CodeShark> or some other more resilient ASCII encoding for things like links and URLs
1006 2013-10-17 22:26:06 GMP has quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds)
1007 2013-10-17 22:26:15 <jakov> the point of base58 i think is so Il and 0o dont become confused
1008 2013-10-17 22:26:16 <olalonde> ok to come back to my question, every private key has exactly one matching address and each address has exactly one matching private key, correct? (except in the case of a very unlikely hash collision)
1009 2013-10-17 22:26:18 <CodeShark> more resilient and more efficient
1010 2013-10-17 22:26:23 <jakov> when do you see it used apart from that?
1011 2013-10-17 22:26:32 <michagogo> Well, there is something to be said for having all bitcoin-type data (keys, key hashes, etc) in one format
1012 2013-10-17 22:26:46 <jakov> olalonde: yeah
1013 2013-10-17 22:26:56 <michagogo> Also, copy-pasting isn't so bad
1014 2013-10-17 22:27:04 <CodeShark> olalonde, the collision issue at a fundamental level is a matter of existence - but at a practical level we can consider collisions to not be seen
1015 2013-10-17 22:27:18 <michagogo> it's typing/reading that's the issue
1016 2013-10-17 22:27:40 <CodeShark> but from a pure math perspective the mapping from private keys to addresses is many-to-one
1017 2013-10-17 22:27:46 <olalonde> right
1018 2013-10-17 22:27:53 <CodeShark> or actually, we can't even fully prove that
1019 2013-10-17 22:28:03 <CodeShark> there could be addresses to which no public key hashes
1020 2013-10-17 22:28:10 <jakov> oh yes
1021 2013-10-17 22:28:17 <jakov> theres that BitcoinEaterDontSend
1022 2013-10-17 22:28:29 <jakov> another is that 111111111111111 i rememeber
1023 2013-10-17 22:28:32 <jakov> or something like that
1024 2013-10-17 22:28:33 <olalonde> yeah i was wondering about that
1025 2013-10-17 22:28:48 <olalonde> is there a risk that a block becomes unsolvable given a small enough target?
1026 2013-10-17 22:29:30 <CodeShark> olalonde: no - it just will take statistically more hashes before we can expect a solution to be found
1027 2013-10-17 22:29:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Any block could potentially be unsolvable
1028 2013-10-17 22:29:59 <jakov> the target becomes 000000....
1029 2013-10-17 22:30:16 <CodeShark> well, what michagogo says is true - any block could potentially be unsolvable no matter what the difficulty
1030 2013-10-17 22:30:23 <CodeShark> and in fact, many are
1031 2013-10-17 22:30:33 <CodeShark> the nonce can overflow (and frequently does)
1032 2013-10-17 22:31:18 <jakov> the hash value depends on the destination address, merkle root and stuff like that
1033 2013-10-17 22:31:19 <helo> so at some point, miners would go back a block and start mining on it?
1034 2013-10-17 22:31:23 <olalonde> i meant unsolveable as, no one in the network can ever solve it
1035 2013-10-17 22:31:33 <CodeShark> the nonce is only 32 bits
1036 2013-10-17 22:31:36 <jakov> so i guess its possible to have a block unsolvable for YOU but solvable for some other guy
1037 2013-10-17 22:31:47 <jakov> you could just add more transactions to it and try more
1038 2013-10-17 22:32:06 <helo> yeah... a lot of variability there
1039 2013-10-17 22:32:48 <CodeShark> the nonce is not the only parameter that can be modified - so yeah, in principle we still can introduce as much entropy as we wish
1040 2013-10-17 22:33:30 <olalonde> is it mathematically proven that a number within 0-X will generate at least one hash that is smaller then Y
1041 2013-10-17 22:33:42 <jakov> good question
1042 2013-10-17 22:34:22 <CodeShark> from my understanding of cryptographic hash functions, we can only infer statistically - if we could actually prove such a statement it would constitute a break
1043 2013-10-17 22:34:29 <olalonde> doesnt seem to be a problem so far though
1044 2013-10-17 22:34:42 <olalonde> ok
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1048 2013-10-17 22:37:52 <CodeShark> from a mathematical modeling standpoint, assuming a good cryptographic hash function, we can treat each output as effectively random within the function's range
1049 2013-10-17 22:38:09 <CodeShark> with uniform distribution
1050 2013-10-17 22:38:45 <CodeShark> from this we can compute expected solution times,  etc...
1051 2013-10-17 22:39:27 <sipa> olalonde: there is no proof that such a property exists, and it is likely false for sufficient ranges
1052 2013-10-17 22:39:54 <sipa> olalonde: but any input has an equal chance that the output below a certain target
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1054 2013-10-17 22:40:20 <sipa> so with a practically infinitely large set og inputs
1055 2013-10-17 22:40:27 <CodeShark> sipa: right, if we don't observe a uniform distribution in our long-term statistics it would suggest a weakness in the function
1056 2013-10-17 22:40:45 <sipa> there will be a practically infinite number of them which are below the target
1057 2013-10-17 22:42:28 <CodeShark> could such issues be settled with a quantum computer?
1058 2013-10-17 22:42:42 <CodeShark> not the infinite range issue
1059 2013-10-17 22:42:45 <CodeShark> err, infinite domain
1060 2013-10-17 22:42:51 <CodeShark> but within a restricted domain
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1062 2013-10-17 22:43:01 <sipa> what issue?
1063 2013-10-17 22:43:23 <CodeShark> we might be able to prove that there exists no input within a particular domain that produces a certain range of outputs
1064 2013-10-17 22:43:36 <CodeShark> even for astronomical sets
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1066 2013-10-17 22:44:28 <CodeShark> or perhaps not "prove" in the strict logical sense - but "strongly infer"
1067 2013-10-17 22:47:09 <CodeShark> anyhow, these speculations have relatively little practical bearing on bitcoin in the very near-term :)
1068 2013-10-17 22:47:26 <sipa> such a search is sped up by a factor sqrt(source set) in QC
1069 2013-10-17 22:47:52 <sipa> i'd say in the medium-long term
1070 2013-10-17 22:47:52 <CodeShark> it's a grover-type problem, huh?
1071 2013-10-17 22:47:55 <sipa> yes
1072 2013-10-17 22:47:57 <CodeShark> not a shor type
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1074 2013-10-17 22:48:10 <sipa> shor offers a much larger speedup
1075 2013-10-17 22:48:18 <CodeShark> yes, exponential
1076 2013-10-17 22:48:24 <sipa> reducing exponential to plynomial
1077 2013-10-17 22:49:06 <CodeShark> right - the greatest vulnerability of bitcoin as it exists to quantum computers is secp256k1
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1079 2013-10-17 22:49:36 <sipa> yes
1080 2013-10-17 22:49:57 <sipa> sha/ripemd are likely much less broken in the presence of qc
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1082 2013-10-17 22:52:39 <gmaxwell> YHBTYHLHAND
1083 2013-10-17 22:52:58 <CodeShark> not sure I'm familiar with that acronym
1084 2013-10-17 22:53:16 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Y/YHBT.html
1085 2013-10-17 22:53:54 <sipa> orly?
1086 2013-10-17 22:54:11 <CodeShark> ?
1087 2013-10-17 22:54:55 <CodeShark> a "clever" acronym which ironically is itself a troll? :p
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