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 455 2013-10-18 12:51:07 <michagogo> LOL... I just saw https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50223.0;all come up
 456 2013-10-18 12:51:35 <michagogo> I started reading, and it wasn't until I saw https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50223.msg627957#msg627957 that I noticed that this was from 2011...
 457 2013-10-18 12:51:57 <michagogo> (I was like, "wait a minute, isn't that what we have right now?"
 458 2013-10-18 12:51:59 <michagogo> )
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 467 2013-10-18 13:03:38 <jgarzik> hrm
 468 2013-10-18 13:03:56 <jgarzik> does the raw tx API have any way to create pay-to-pubkey TX?
 469 2013-10-18 13:04:07 <jgarzik> i.e. ancient style output
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 472 2013-10-18 13:06:25 <skinnkavaj> Worth a watch for all developers
 473 2013-10-18 13:06:28 <skinnkavaj> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv5gBFqzQfY
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 481 2013-10-18 13:16:54 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj, I can tell you from the title, and not watching -- it is true
 482 2013-10-18 13:17:26 <jgarzik> My common refrain from the past months, RE PRISM and surveillance state, is:  Don't blame the NSA for buying a standard hammer off a public store shelf.
 483 2013-10-18 13:17:41 saulimus has joined
 484 2013-10-18 13:18:05 <jgarzik> Or in other words, NSA is just using naturally available technology, and PRISM is just the tip of the iceberg.  All due to technology, not politics.
 485 2013-10-18 13:19:01 <wumpus> it's part politics too... too much money is being funneled into NSA and similar organizations
 486 2013-10-18 13:19:09 <jgarzik> What will our world be like, when /private/ entities can track all persons through camera-observable biometrics, and can deduce very private details of our lives from data mining and statistical analysis?
 487 2013-10-18 13:19:35 <jgarzik> Thanks to statistics and fMRI, it is possible to see an image of an object, right when that person is thinking of it.
 488 2013-10-18 13:19:44 <jgarzik> (mind reading :))
 489 2013-10-18 13:20:15 <jgarzik> Even if the NSA did not exist, some commercial company would build this database and sell it to a government
 490 2013-10-18 13:20:34 ovidiusoft has joined
 491 2013-10-18 13:20:42 <wumpus> the government still has to be interested in it, if they don't care enough to pay money for it they won't
 492 2013-10-18 13:21:49 <jgarzik> Always-on cameras for police are possible due to lowered tech costs, which implications both good (evidence of abuse) and bad (universal data collecting for face/gait/biometric mining)
 493 2013-10-18 13:21:59 <jgarzik> *with
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 496 2013-10-18 13:23:50 <wumpus> agree that collecting data is easy and cheap, but making the data usefully seachable and processing it is very expensive, and does require people to build it, so is not a matter of technology alone
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 504 2013-10-18 13:28:23 <jgarzik> wumpus, agree RE processing and storage expense.  But it's pretty turnkey these days, with free software doing almost all heavy lifting.  http://www.openbiometricsinitiative.org/
 505 2013-10-18 13:29:05 <jgarzik> So if you can afford the AWS fees [metaphorically speaking], you can create your own surveillance state with off the shelf software ;p
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 507 2013-10-18 13:32:32 <wumpus> pretty scary
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 511 2013-10-18 13:36:30 <michagogo> [16:01:47] <@jgarzik> does the raw tx API have any way to create pay-to-pubkey TX?
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 513 2013-10-18 13:36:42 <michagogo> No -- as far as I know, it only takes addresses
 514 2013-10-18 13:37:05 <michagogo> In other words, pay-to-(script|pubkey)-hash
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 520 2013-10-18 13:47:01 <CodeShark> the API should allow arbitrary outputs
 521 2013-10-18 13:48:01 <CodeShark> either that - or the alternative is to force all outputs to be p2sh
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 526 2013-10-18 13:52:18 <michagogo> CodeShark: fairly easy (if you know what you're doing) to change the relevant bits if you want a custom script
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 528 2013-10-18 13:52:49 <CodeShark> yes, of course - but in that case you might as well write your own transaction builder
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 534 2013-10-18 13:57:35 <michagogo> Well, I'd see it this way
 535 2013-10-18 13:58:05 <michagogo> If you know enough to use a custom scriptPubKey, you're not the target audience of createrawtransaction
 536 2013-10-18 13:59:03 <CodeShark> while true, adding the ability to use custom scriptPubKeys would be fairly straightforward
 537 2013-10-18 13:59:10 <CodeShark> but yes, in general I agree
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 539 2013-10-18 13:59:40 <CodeShark> we should do away with the scriptPubKey nomenclature :p
 540 2013-10-18 13:59:43 <jgarzik> not a big deal...  pay-to-pubkey would just make my testing easier.  can code a test instead.
 541 2013-10-18 14:00:02 <CodeShark> especially with p2sh, calling a txout script "scriptPubKey" is a misnomer :)
 542 2013-10-18 14:00:03 <jgarzik> CodeShark, scriptTheFirstPart and scriptTheSecondPart ?
 543 2013-10-18 14:00:08 <michagogo> CodeShark: Well, if you want to pay to a custom scriptPubKey, just hash it and base58 encode it :P
 544 2013-10-18 14:00:33 <michagogo> CodeShark: I saw someone explain it a couple days ago
 545 2013-10-18 14:00:47 <michagogo> something mentioning a hybrid something or other
 546 2013-10-18 14:00:52 neep3r has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 547 2013-10-18 14:00:59 <CodeShark> michagogo: I have several working implementations of full-featured transaction builders and signers :)
 548 2013-10-18 14:01:07 <CodeShark> so yes, I'm well aware of how to do it
 549 2013-10-18 14:01:19 <michagogo> where scriptPubKey refers to a bitcoin pubkey, not necessarily a pubkey in the cryptographic sense of the word
 550 2013-10-18 14:01:43 * michagogo goes to check if it was on IRC that he saw this
 551 2013-10-18 14:01:48 <CodeShark> overloading the term "public key" like that can lead to confusion
 552 2013-10-18 14:02:01 <michagogo> Yeah, I agree that it'd have been better not to use those terms
 553 2013-10-18 14:03:00 <CodeShark> output scripts specify the conditions under which coins can be redeemed - and inputs scripts redeem them
 554 2013-10-18 14:04:01 <CodeShark> something like spendscript and redeemscript - but redeemscript is already being used to refer to the public key portion of the input script redeeming a p2sh
 555 2013-10-18 14:04:10 <CodeShark> without including the signatures
 556 2013-10-18 14:04:11 <michagogo> nah
 557 2013-10-18 14:04:14 <michagogo> spend == redeem
 558 2013-10-18 14:04:29 <CodeShark> there's a subtle difference
 559 2013-10-18 14:04:43 <CodeShark> for instance, you could redeem them and send them back to yourself
 560 2013-10-18 14:04:50 <CodeShark> anyhow...
 561 2013-10-18 14:05:11 <CodeShark> yeah, perhaps the distinction is too subtle
 562 2013-10-18 14:05:45 <CodeShark> I prefer to just use txinscript and txoutscript in my more recent code
 563 2013-10-18 14:06:07 <michagogo> Well
 564 2013-10-18 14:06:14 <CodeShark> regardless of the semantics at least those terms are unambiguous :)
 565 2013-10-18 14:06:35 <michagogo> Personally, I'd think spend and redeem are identical
 566 2013-10-18 14:06:40 JyZyXEL has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 567 2013-10-18 14:06:51 <michagogo> That is, when talking at the level of scripts
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 569 2013-10-18 14:07:23 <michagogo> Hmm, maybe challengeScript and solutionScript?
 570 2013-10-18 14:07:24 <michagogo> :-P
 571 2013-10-18 14:07:54 <michagogo> or, conditionScript and conditionFulfillmentScript?
 572 2013-10-18 14:08:18 <CodeShark> sure, either of those would be better terms than scriptSig and scriptPubKey
 573 2013-10-18 14:08:27 <michagogo> actually, if it's "script
 574 2013-10-18 14:08:36 <michagogo> " at th e beginning...
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 577 2013-10-18 14:09:29 <michagogo> scriptThatMustReturnTrueForSpendingThisOutput and scriptThatMakesThatOtherScriptReturnTrue?
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 579 2013-10-18 14:09:35 <CodeShark> lol
 580 2013-10-18 14:10:25 <CodeShark> even with autocomplete you're forced to type ten characters before the editor can make a suggestion
 581 2013-10-18 14:10:46 <CodeShark> err, 11 characters
 582 2013-10-18 14:11:04 <michagogo> 12*
 583 2013-10-18 14:11:18 <michagogo> script, 6, That, 10, M, 1
 584 2013-10-18 14:11:22 <CodeShark> script{hit down arrow appropriate number of times and enter} :p
 585 2013-10-18 14:11:42 <michagogo> it's not until a/u that it's distinct
 586 2013-10-18 14:12:07 <CodeShark> I think I'll stick to using txinscript and txoutscript for now :p
 587 2013-10-18 14:12:19 <michagogo> that works :P
 588 2013-10-18 14:13:03 <CodeShark> would be nice to create a separate datafield for tx inputs for signatures
 589 2013-10-18 14:13:20 <CodeShark> so that the txinscript and txoutscript are always given (from the perspective of a wallet)
 590 2013-10-18 14:13:29 <CodeShark> and the signatures can be added as needed later
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 593 2013-10-18 14:13:58 <CodeShark> I've been using placeholders in the txinscript for signatures that are missing
 594 2013-10-18 14:14:15 <CodeShark> but the logic could be simplified a lot if the signatures had their own field
 595 2013-10-18 14:14:45 <CodeShark> i.e. being able to identify two versions of the same transaction at different signing stages
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 597 2013-10-18 14:15:37 <CodeShark> furthermore we could do away with this silly 0 byte that must preceed any multisig
 598 2013-10-18 14:15:56 <CodeShark> and we could enforce a canonical sorting of signatures
 599 2013-10-18 14:16:07 <CodeShark> so that we don't have to worry about all these multisig permutations
 600 2013-10-18 14:17:04 <CodeShark> that's to say, a transaction would effectively have two hashes - the unsigned hash and the signed hash
 601 2013-10-18 14:17:25 <CodeShark> the unsigned hash can be used to share the transaction with other parties who might sign it
 602 2013-10-18 14:18:23 <CodeShark> could be used for m-of-n or for joint transactions
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 604 2013-10-18 14:19:01 <CodeShark> rather than requiring special logic to deal with the different script types, the signatures would ALWAYS go in their own field
 605 2013-10-18 14:19:24 <CodeShark> so that the messaging layer doesn't need to know anything about the script
 606 2013-10-18 14:20:09 <CodeShark> the messaging layer could easily identify which signatures are still missing and route the transaction accordingly
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 608 2013-10-18 14:21:54 <CodeShark> furthermore, it would greatly simplify OP_CHECKSIG and OP_CHECKMULTISIG operations if we didn't have to substitute any scripts when signing
 609 2013-10-18 14:22:04 <CodeShark> we just remove the signatures
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 613 2013-10-18 14:24:49 <michagogo> Yeah, that makes sense -- having signatures as a separate unit from the transaction would be useful
 614 2013-10-18 14:26:29 <michagogo> What would you do? Have the scriptSig just be the pubkey(s), and define OP_CHECKSIG to include this thir field?
 615 2013-10-18 14:26:32 <michagogo> third*
 616 2013-10-18 14:26:34 <CodeShark> perhaps OP_CHECKSIG and OP_CHECKMULTISIG should be a special class of operations that are not defined at the same level as all the others - they are far higher level and it doesn't really make sense to define a stack machine that mixes them with the other low-level operations
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 618 2013-10-18 14:27:52 <CodeShark> the stack machine OPs specifically produce a 1 or 0  output at the end contingent on conditions that are independent of the signature - and then if a signature is required, we also perform the signature check
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 620 2013-10-18 14:28:38 <michagogo> Well, there *is* something to be said for allowing all kinds of different operations to be performed as part of the same system
 621 2013-10-18 14:29:41 <michagogo> Anyway, g2g
 622 2013-10-18 14:29:52 <CodeShark> the thing is that the bitcoin script is deliberately designed NOT to be turing-complete…and most scripts aren't even relayed on mainnet (even if they follow the script rules)
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 625 2013-10-18 14:30:16 <CodeShark> so if we're going to stray so far from generality, might as well focus on good usability
 626 2013-10-18 14:31:03 <CodeShark> in other words, it's totally silly to implement a full stack machine and then only allow a very special set of cases, and then write code to handle each case separately
 627 2013-10-18 14:32:36 <CodeShark> if we're going for full generality, let's construct a good general-purpose script. if not, let's define the most useful cases and make it as simple as possible to encode/decode them
 628 2013-10-18 14:33:08 <CodeShark> what we have right now is neither
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 631 2013-10-18 14:35:38 <CodeShark> as for turing-completeness, perhaps we can work around complexity, size, and infinite loop issues by just forcing the fee to be proportional to the number of operations or something
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 633 2013-10-18 14:36:12 <CodeShark> if you write an infinite loop script, it will essentially just get eaten up and given to miners
 634 2013-10-18 14:37:33 <CodeShark> adding a fee to each script op means infinite loops are impossible
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 636 2013-10-18 14:39:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|CodeShark: well, you'd need to run the script infinitely long to see what the needed fee would be
 637 2013-10-18 14:39:25 <CodeShark> no, the script would necessarily terminate
 638 2013-10-18 14:39:37 <CodeShark> the number of bitcoins that exist is finite
 639 2013-10-18 14:39:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You could write a 3-opcode script that will loop infinitely
 640 2013-10-18 14:40:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|To count the operations, you'd need to run the script
 641 2013-10-18 14:40:36 <CodeShark> the fee needn't be linear in ops, actually
 642 2013-10-18 14:40:52 <CodeShark> perhaps beyond a certain number of ops it grows faster
 643 2013-10-18 14:41:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Actually, you may be able to do it by having the fee paid, and then subtracting x amount each time you perform an operation, and aborting when you hit 0
 644 2013-10-18 14:41:55 <CodeShark> yes, exactly
 645 2013-10-18 14:42:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But that seems overly complex, and that fee only goes to miners
 646 2013-10-18 14:42:23 <CodeShark> the point is to disincentivize it
 647 2013-10-18 14:42:30 <CodeShark> and I think it would effectively do so
 648 2013-10-18 14:42:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Meaning that you could still, given enough funds, force every bitcoin user to run a large number of operations
 649 2013-10-18 14:43:19 <CodeShark> yes, you could add cost to full verification nodes - but the cost to you would be far greater
 650 2013-10-18 14:43:34 <CodeShark> in any case, things are already like that
 651 2013-10-18 14:43:48 <CodeShark> you could spam the network with craploads of small transactions if you have a lot of bitcoins
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 656 2013-10-18 14:51:29 <CodeShark> heck, you don't even need that many bitcoins - with a couple bitcoins you could probably fire off enough transactions to prevent a good chunk of the network from confirming in at least several hours
 657 2013-10-18 14:52:22 <petertodd> CodeShark: do the math on that, it's more expensive than you'd think
 658 2013-10-18 14:53:03 <CodeShark> ok, let's say you pay a 0.001 fee on each transaction - that means 1 bitcoin will buy you 1000 transactions
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 660 2013-10-18 14:53:09 <petertodd> You need about 25BTC to outbid the current transaction fees, and there's a big distribution there.
 661 2013-10-18 14:53:40 <petertodd> That said, it's easy to make some idiotic wallet software that doesn't let you see fees at all useless, but fortunately most do.
 662 2013-10-18 14:54:28 <CodeShark> yes, it's expensive as it should be - point is, it could be made at least as expensive to write CPU-intensive scripts
 663 2013-10-18 14:54:54 <petertodd> We've already got that by having a limit on opcodes per block.
 664 2013-10-18 14:55:20 <CodeShark> we don't even have a scripting language, petertood
 665 2013-10-18 14:55:25 <CodeShark> *petertodd
 666 2013-10-18 14:55:30 <CodeShark> most scripts won't get relayed
 667 2013-10-18 14:55:36 <CodeShark> so as far as I'm concerned it's useless
 668 2013-10-18 14:55:55 <petertodd> CodeShark: relaying is the least of your problems - the language itself is useless
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 670 2013-10-18 14:56:09 <CodeShark> well, that too :)
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 672 2013-10-18 14:56:27 <CodeShark> I'd prefer to just have hardcoded transaction types
 673 2013-10-18 14:56:52 <petertodd> but, if you do have a use for it - unlikely - we have the opcode limit and thus scripts with more opcodes are more expensive (eligius specifically charges per-opcode for non-standard scripts)
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 675 2013-10-18 14:57:06 <petertodd> that's nice, go tell me when your alt-coin is done
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 677 2013-10-18 14:57:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There are uses, though
 678 2013-10-18 14:57:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For example, those collision bounties
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 682 2013-10-18 14:58:23 <petertodd> michagogo: my comment on the cryptography mailing list was how sad it was that the collision bounties were the most interesting uses for the scripting system that I could come up with
 683 2013-10-18 14:58:30 <CodeShark> in the end I'd prefer to have a fully general language and charge a fee depending on computational cost - but if we can't have that, I'd prefer hardcoded special cases over an ugly, nongeneral script that isn't even fully supported
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 685 2013-10-18 14:58:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The nice thing about the scripting system is that it enables all kind of possibilities that just require someone to think of them
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 687 2013-10-18 14:59:19 <petertodd> michagogo: yeah, if Bitcoin hadn't disabled a bunch of opcodes a few years ago even now you could implement merkle signatures with it
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 690 2013-10-18 15:00:16 <petertodd> michagogo: you don't need much stuff to make the scripting system really, really useful, and it doesn't need for-loops to be useful
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 692 2013-10-18 15:00:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right
 693 2013-10-18 15:00:46 <CodeShark> I say allow for loops and charge exponentially per op beyond a certain number :)
 694 2013-10-18 15:00:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I suspect that was supposed to be directed at CodeShark)
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 696 2013-10-18 15:01:12 <petertodd> CodeShark: why exponentially? the cost to the network is linear
 697 2013-10-18 15:01:32 <petertodd> but anyway, this is really #wizards material, and I gotta get some stuff done, later
 698 2013-10-18 15:01:34 <CodeShark> because only the miner gets rewarded
 699 2013-10-18 15:01:54 <CodeShark> if everyone on the network got rewarded for proving a script, I'd say yea - make it linear
 700 2013-10-18 15:02:26 <CodeShark> bitcoin is just proof of concept, after all
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 702 2013-10-18 15:04:05 <CodeShark> once enough smart people in the world *get* it a system that solves all these issues will be created and bitcoin won't be able to compete :p
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 706 2013-10-18 15:04:40 <sipa> are you sure?
 707 2013-10-18 15:04:45 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 708 2013-10-18 15:04:55 <sipa> i really doubt technical quality matters in the short term
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 710 2013-10-18 15:05:15 <sipa> especially knowing that a large part of the economy on top of bitcoin doesn't even use its added value
 711 2013-10-18 15:05:16 <CodeShark> in the short term things are most likely to remain exactly as they just were a short while ago :p
 712 2013-10-18 15:05:32 <CodeShark> in the long term, all bets are off
 713 2013-10-18 15:05:38 <sipa> (people using completely centralized wallets, no escrowing, ...)
 714 2013-10-18 15:05:54 <CodeShark> speaking of which… :)
 715 2013-10-18 15:06:03 <CodeShark> have you checked your private messages, sipa?
 716 2013-10-18 15:06:06 <sipa> yes
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 720 2013-10-18 15:10:30 <CodeShark> bitcoin is an early biplane - the future is hypersonic aircraft
 721 2013-10-18 15:10:50 <sipa> maybe
 722 2013-10-18 15:11:01 <CodeShark> we're just learning how to get off the ground
 723 2013-10-18 15:11:15 <CodeShark> we're not even close to achieving low orbital flight
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 732 2013-10-18 15:14:47 <jgarzik> CodeShark, I prefer to think of it in layers.  Bitcoin-as-it-is-now forms a solid foundation for future growth of the ecosystem.  The bottom layer is up and working.
 733 2013-10-18 15:15:13 <jgarzik> CodeShark, ie. wallet software is quite immature for passing around partially-signed multisig transactions, but that can evolve now that the base layer works.
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 739 2013-10-18 15:18:29 <CodeShark> jgarzik: don't get me wrong - bitcoin is a very impressive feat - it demonstrates the feasibility of a p2p economy
 740 2013-10-18 15:19:09 <CodeShark> but bitcoin is also limited by legacy
 741 2013-10-18 15:21:07 <jgarzik> CodeShark, true, but not as much as you might think
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 779 2013-10-18 16:16:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: Perhaps we need to be locking the BIP pages against editing :(  https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=BIP_0032&action=historysubmit&diff=40588&oldid=39104
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 781 2013-10-18 16:24:35 <CodeShark> better yet, leave the BIP wiki pages open to editing and instead publish whitepapers once the ideas are sufficiently mature
 782 2013-10-18 16:26:52 <TD> doh
 783 2013-10-18 16:26:59 <TD> who is gafter
 784 2013-10-18 16:27:22 Eiii has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 785 2013-10-18 16:27:35 <gmaxwell> Thats his only edit, poor guy.
 786 2013-10-18 16:27:46 <gmaxwell> Paid a buck to make it wrong. :)
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 790 2013-10-18 16:28:59 <gmaxwell> I should try to see if magicaltux will flip on the mediawiki udp edit feed for me... if so I have an IRC bot written already that could tell us about changes to BIPs.
 791 2013-10-18 16:30:04 <olalonde> can anyone explain why zerocoins cannot be traced back to the original mint transaction?
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 794 2013-10-18 16:31:09 <gmaxwell> olalonde: because they don't exist? :P
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 797 2013-10-18 16:32:55 <olalonde> good point
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 800 2013-10-18 16:34:44 <gmaxwell> olalonde: the idea is that you can't tell which spends and which mints for a common accumulator are related to each other.
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 802 2013-10-18 16:35:27 <gmaxwell> olalonde: in any case, you won't see ZC in bitcoin anytime soon. But there are other ways you can increase privacy which are already part of the system, see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.0
 803 2013-10-18 16:35:34 <olalonde> I understood that part, but I have no idea how this is possible eheh
 804 2013-10-18 16:35:51 <olalonde> because it would require a hard fork right?
 805 2013-10-18 16:36:46 <gmaxwell> No, because its fairly speculative new cryptography, and it's super slow (which is a big problem for us, since all full verifying nodes must verify all transactions), and it produces large transactions.
 806 2013-10-18 16:37:11 <olalonde> ok
 807 2013-10-18 16:37:27 <gmaxwell> (It could be deployed as a softforking change, however)
 808 2013-10-18 16:38:00 <olalonde> presumably, your claim on zerocoins would have to be based on your private key
 809 2013-10-18 16:38:19 <olalonde> is the idea based on the fact that u can prove you know your private key without revealing it?
 810 2013-10-18 16:38:23 <gmaxwell> I'm actually somewhat skeptical that anyone even wants it all that much. (Otherwise, why aren't they doing what is already possible to that end)
 811 2013-10-18 16:38:53 <gmaxwell> olalonde: http://spar.isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/ZerocoinOakland.pdf
 812 2013-10-18 16:38:56 <olalonde> I am just curious about the ideas behind zerocoin
 813 2013-10-18 16:39:07 <olalonde> thanks
 814 2013-10-18 16:39:17 <olalonde> I will try reading that
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 817 2013-10-18 16:40:49 <mikey> Is anyone else's 50btc account broken?
 818 2013-10-18 16:41:27 <mikey> agh, i'm outta here.
 819 2013-10-18 16:41:27 <mikey> seeya
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 837 2013-10-18 16:58:37 <olalonde> mmm as far as i understand
 838 2013-10-18 16:59:43 <olalonde> zerocoins would take a lot of space in the blockchain and spend transactions can never be removed
 839 2013-10-18 16:59:51 <olalonde> i mean, mint transactions
 840 2013-10-18 17:00:02 <sipa> well nothing can be removed from the blockchain
 841 2013-10-18 17:00:12 <sipa> the question is whether things can be removed from the utxo set
 842 2013-10-18 17:00:54 <olalonde> i thought in theory we could eventually remove older transactions
 843 2013-10-18 17:01:26 <sipa> you can remove them from your disk
 844 2013-10-18 17:01:34 <sipa> doesn't mean they get removed from the blockchain
 845 2013-10-18 17:01:39 <olalonde> ok
 846 2013-10-18 17:02:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: the validation information for ZC is ever growing... so ZC is only prunable if you expire accumulators, which reduces the anonymity set size, and would make people lose coin if they didn't redeem it in time.
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 848 2013-10-18 17:02:09 <olalonde> and if 1 zero coin = 1 btc
 849 2013-10-18 17:02:19 <olalonde> you would need 1000 mint transactions to get 1000 zerocoins
 850 2013-10-18 17:02:25 <olalonde> if i understood that part correctly
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 852 2013-10-18 17:02:42 <olalonde> or a very big transaction containing 1000 serial numbers
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 854 2013-10-18 17:03:15 <gmaxwell> olalonde: all coins in a common acumulator are the same value. You could have distinct accumulators with different values, but they would be different anonymity sets.
 855 2013-10-18 17:03:33 <olalonde> right
 856 2013-10-18 17:03:58 <olalonde> in any case, the transaction would be somewhat proportional to the amount you want to mint
 857 2013-10-18 17:05:20 <olalonde> the idea of having distinct accumulators seems good though
 858 2013-10-18 17:05:57 <olalonde> but yeah, you would need to make sure you're not the only one in the accumulator lol
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 863 2013-10-18 17:11:53 <olalonde> what does the O stand for in UTXO?
 864 2013-10-18 17:11:58 <c0rw1n> Output
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 866 2013-10-18 17:12:07 <olalonde> oh right
 867 2013-10-18 17:13:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: IMO the BIP's should have been a git repo
 868 2013-10-18 17:14:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: easier to track changes, who wrote what, and what's the official most recent version. Allow them to be either text, or latex/pdf's, and it's fine (if a bit ugly) to commit the pdfs to the repo.
 869 2013-10-18 17:15:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: s/text/markdown/ really, so viewing them in github works nicely (which removes most of the recent for latex)
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 883 2013-10-18 17:27:51 <HM2> I see using weird bases for encoding key pairs is catching on
 884 2013-10-18 17:28:02 <HM2> ZeroMQ 4 uses base 85 to encode EC keypairs
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 893 2013-10-18 17:37:35 <phantomcircuit> HM2, it's all a question of what characters you assume will be correctly transmitted
 894 2013-10-18 17:37:57 <phantomcircuit> increase that set and you can get a more compact encoding
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 896 2013-10-18 17:39:53 <HM2> they're using base 85 because it allows you to do 4 byte chunked encoding, like base64
 897 2013-10-18 17:40:00 <olalonde> i have a question regarding the principles behind zerocoin
 898 2013-10-18 17:40:16 <HM2> it doesn't treat the input as one great big int like bitcoin does with keys
 899 2013-10-18 17:40:21 <HM2> err addresses rather
 900 2013-10-18 17:40:39 <HM2> so they waste a few bits but get a really simple implementation that operates on 32bit platforms
 901 2013-10-18 17:41:18 <olalonde> assuming you know the hidden value r for a coin, can you remove the coin from the accumulator?
 902 2013-10-18 17:41:28 <olalonde> without affecting other coins
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 905 2013-10-18 17:44:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, can you answer olalonde's question?
 906 2013-10-18 17:45:03 <phantomcircuit> (i cant)
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 910 2013-10-18 17:48:02 <olalonde> i was thinking of a scheme that would allow zerocoin transactions without the blockchain, im way out of my league obviously but i thought i might have a reasonable intuition
 911 2013-10-18 17:48:28 <maaku> olalonde: like a chaumian bank?
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 913 2013-10-18 17:48:55 <olalonde> mmm im not sure what is a chaumian bank, maybe i should go read on that first eheh
 914 2013-10-18 17:49:24 <maaku> olalonde: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9544/how-does-chaum-style-e-cash-work-all-the-wiki-links-are-broken
 915 2013-10-18 17:49:59 <olalonde> anyways, the idea was that to send 1 zerocoin to someone, you give that person your secret key ( r ). this person then adds 1 zerocoin to the commitment pool and publishes the secret key r
 916 2013-10-18 17:50:23 <olalonde> the network sees that the commitment for key r exists, removes it from the pool and accepts the new commitment
 917 2013-10-18 17:50:28 <olalonde> does that make any sense at all?
 918 2013-10-18 17:50:37 <olalonde> maaku: thanks
 919 2013-10-18 17:50:42 <HM2> you can't stop double spending without an online system, you can detect it and attribute it securely though
 920 2013-10-18 17:50:55 <HM2> that doesn't really help you without a legally enforced debt collector on your side though
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 922 2013-10-18 17:51:23 <olalonde> the idea would be to keep those transactions using the same principle as the blockchain
 923 2013-10-18 17:51:46 <olalonde> at least for some time
 924 2013-10-18 17:52:01 <olalonde> older transactions could probably be pruned
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 927 2013-10-18 17:55:41 <olalonde> there would still be a need for a proof of work based concensus to see which transactions are accepted
 928 2013-10-18 17:55:45 <phantomcircuit> olalonde, zerocoin is a neat piece of cryptography, it is however not something that could be reasonably made available today
 929 2013-10-18 17:56:11 <phantomcircuit> the signatures are enormous and very expensive and it's pretty much the closest you'll get the bleeding edge cryptography where it actually works
 930 2013-10-18 17:56:20 <olalonde> I see
 931 2013-10-18 17:56:47 <phantomcircuit> iirc there is some altcoin that's integrating it
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 933 2013-10-18 17:56:57 <phantomcircuit> i can pretty much guarantee you that wont end well
 934 2013-10-18 17:58:01 <maaku> olalonde: if you actually want to do anonymous currency off-chain, use chaumian blinded tokens
 935 2013-10-18 17:58:26 <maaku> it's well studied, efficient, and reviewed implementations exist
 936 2013-10-18 17:58:40 <olalonde> i dont want to do anything, just thinking out loud :P
 937 2013-10-18 17:58:47 <olalonde> will google it up
 938 2013-10-18 17:59:01 <maaku> it just has undesireable properties when you try to do it on a public block chain, hence zerocoin
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 940 2013-10-18 18:01:03 <MC1984> phantomcircuit someone is really doing zerocoin?
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 942 2013-10-18 18:01:44 <MC1984> why cant we have a bitcoin backed chaum bank
 943 2013-10-18 18:02:09 <midnightmagic> MC1984: because nobody would trust the issuer
 944 2013-10-18 18:02:13 <MC1984> its obvious bitcoins future (whilst staying true to itself) is as a settlement protocol
 945 2013-10-18 18:02:45 <MC1984> in what way do you have to trust the issuer
 946 2013-10-18 18:04:50 <MC1984> i thought there was a verifiable way to assign coins to chaum tokens
 947 2013-10-18 18:05:44 <MC1984> i dont really understand chaum though
 948 2013-10-18 18:06:01 <midnightmagic> MC1984: you have just obviated the need for zerocoin. :) go forth and deploy, and i will give you all my bitcoins.
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 950 2013-10-18 18:06:39 <MC1984> maybe thats what i was thinking of
 951 2013-10-18 18:06:53 <MC1984> theres a way to assign coins to chaums and its zerocoin
 952 2013-10-18 18:07:36 <midnightmagic> MC1984: most of the time when I hear about chaum there's a central issuer of the tokens who must then be used for *redemption* purposes as well. For example, OpenTransactions from FellowTraveller..
 953 2013-10-18 18:07:38 <MC1984> amazing we have a technology that disruptive waiting inthe wings and we simply dont have the technology to do it yet
 954 2013-10-18 18:08:22 <MC1984> i suppose there would be many chaum banks and they would trade of reputation mainly
 955 2013-10-18 18:08:33 <MC1984> muh reputation economy
 956 2013-10-18 18:09:36 <midnightmagic> hello ripple. :)
 957 2013-10-18 18:09:41 <midnightmagic> (original ripple)
 958 2013-10-18 18:10:52 <MC1984> RIPple
 959 2013-10-18 18:11:22 <c0rw1n> ah good one MC1984
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 964 2013-10-18 18:17:07 <maaku> midnightmagic: that's not correct
 965 2013-10-18 18:17:29 <maaku> the reason you don't see chaumian block chains is that storage requirements grow linearlly over time
 966 2013-10-18 18:18:06 <maaku> and, potentially, if it wasn't done right you could probably steal coins over a reorg, but i'm confident you could probably find a protocol around that
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 968 2013-10-18 18:18:39 <maaku> there's no reason chaumain blinding has to be centralized, and even if it were that is a very specific kind of 'trust'
 969 2013-10-18 18:18:46 <maaku> see, for example, open-transactions
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 972 2013-10-18 18:20:37 <maaku> zerocoin's accumulator lets you do public chaumian ecash-like operations without the linear increasing storage requirements
 973 2013-10-18 18:22:32 <MC1984> linear storage doesnt sound too bad
 974 2013-10-18 18:23:14 <maaku> MC1984: ?
 975 2013-10-18 18:23:54 <maaku> by linear storage I mean every chaum blinded transaction adds to the storage requirements of every node, forever
 976 2013-10-18 18:23:55 <MC1984> bitcoin is linear for now
 977 2013-10-18 18:24:06 <maaku> no, bitcoin you only need the utxo set
 978 2013-10-18 18:24:34 <maaku> with chaum blinding you will need to remember used tokens, forever, or else there is possibility for counterfeiting
 979 2013-10-18 18:25:10 <MC1984> you mean the difference between archive storage and immediate storage
 980 2013-10-18 18:26:14 <maaku> naïvly implemented chaum blinding makes full archive storage needed for validation
 981 2013-10-18 18:27:32 <maaku> because part of the redemption process is that you keep a list of previously redeemed tokens, and compare against that
 982 2013-10-18 18:28:32 <maaku> so long as there are outstanding tokens in the minted series, you need to remember that list
 983 2013-10-18 18:28:54 <midnightmagic> maaku: open-transactions requires an issuer, and a server and is centralized, or was last time I spoke with fellowtraveler. Blinded tokens would require additional infrastructure, as I understand it, to support trustless redemption. If there was no need for a central issuer for chaumian tokens, then why does bitcoin exist? I am not describing theoretical constructs: I am describing what the asker was requesting: bitcoin-backed
 984 2013-10-18 18:29:00 <midnightmagic> chaumian currency.
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 988 2013-10-18 18:31:15 <midnightmagic> i'm sure it could theoretically be done with additional infrastructure and code. I personally have been cheering fellowtraveller on since early 2011. :)
 989 2013-10-18 18:32:04 <MC1984> OT is legit then?
 990 2013-10-18 18:32:15 <MC1984> i had heard it worked but was a bit harebrained
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 992 2013-10-18 18:32:35 <midnightmagic> nobody wants to be the issuer; nobody wants to trust an issuer. nobody wants to operate a facilitating server which allows nearly complete ledgerless money-passing.
 993 2013-10-18 18:33:28 <midnightmagic> mostly, nobody has seen it working. i bet if someone issued some OT tokens that could be redeemed in some clever way it would explode into awesome
 994 2013-10-18 18:33:29 <MC1984> i dont actually know hardly anyhting at all abou tOt so maybe i shouldnt be speaking of it
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 999 2013-10-18 18:40:39 <maaku> MC1984: open-transactions works just fine for what it does
1000 2013-10-18 18:41:37 <maaku> there are plenty of situations where it makes absolute perfect sense to have an issuer, where you have to trust the issuer anyway for completely unrelated reasons
1001 2013-10-18 18:42:08 <maaku> scarce currency, like bitcoin, is the odd exception. *most* things work just fine with an issuer
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1039 2013-10-18 19:16:33 <DoctorBTC> Any thoughts on if it is it possible for me to build bitcoind on my PPC ibook running Debian wheezy?
1040 2013-10-18 19:16:43 <maaku> DoctorBTC: no
1041 2013-10-18 19:16:54 <maaku> er, big-endian or little-endian?
1042 2013-10-18 19:17:06 <DoctorBTC> maaku: lol... idk
1043 2013-10-18 19:17:07 <maaku> n/m, ibook is big-endian, so no
1044 2013-10-18 19:17:34 <Luke-Jr> DoctorBTC: you could probably do picocoin
1045 2013-10-18 19:17:40 <Luke-Jr> or jgarzik's python port
1046 2013-10-18 19:18:28 <DoctorBTC> I am trying to make use of the only linux machine i have so to create a solo miner / lottery ticket machine.
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1048 2013-10-18 19:21:38 <MC1984> lottery ticket machine
1049 2013-10-18 19:21:39 <MC1984> lol
1050 2013-10-18 19:22:18 <MC1984> i bet the odds are longer for a solo block on an average machine now than for the euromillions lottery
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1052 2013-10-18 19:22:55 <MC1984> well, youd have to normalise for one ticket vs 'buying' 10 million per second or something
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1062 2013-10-18 19:28:10 * helo watches bitcoin mining get outlawed as gambling
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1066 2013-10-18 19:34:03 <maaku> or worse, regulated as gambling...
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1074 2013-10-18 19:45:52 <MC1984> so maybe mining leaves US territory
1075 2013-10-18 19:46:13 <MC1984> let them shoot themsevles in the foot like that if they really want to
1076 2013-10-18 19:46:21 <owowo> mining on the m000n
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1079 2013-10-18 19:47:58 <MC1984> of course if you could mine over tor for the foreseeable, that might not be a problem
1080 2013-10-18 19:48:15 <MC1984> uncertainties over tor notwithstanding i suppose
1081 2013-10-18 19:48:30 <Luke-Jr> nah, I doubt the law would make it legal over tor
1082 2013-10-18 19:50:24 <MC1984> what a model citizen
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1085 2013-10-18 19:54:20 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, im fairly certain that's not what he's saying :)
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1090 2013-10-18 19:56:03 <MC1984> actually if that happened i could see grow op style no knock mining busts based on power usage coming into fashion
1091 2013-10-18 19:56:27 <maaku> MC1984: you can always mine over tor
1092 2013-10-18 19:56:37 <MC1984> especially as the war on drugs winds down, theyd need something to gradually replace it. All dat budget isnt just going to be given up lightly
1093 2013-10-18 19:56:49 <maaku> run a regular full node, but submit blocks over tor
1094 2013-10-18 19:57:08 <MC1984> you can now. But maybe not in future
1095 2013-10-18 19:57:14 <maaku> MC1984: ?
1096 2013-10-18 19:57:18 <maaku> why not?
1097 2013-10-18 19:57:30 <MC1984> blocksize etc
1098 2013-10-18 19:58:03 <maaku> blocksize would have to get pretty big for that to be the case...
1099 2013-10-18 19:58:20 <maaku> since all you're doing is submitting the solved block via tor
1100 2013-10-18 19:58:30 <MC1984> yes
1101 2013-10-18 19:58:41 <MC1984> and factor in the mining centralisation on clearnet
1102 2013-10-18 19:58:58 <MC1984> block racing might put you out of business unless you have free power or somthing anyway
1103 2013-10-18 19:59:06 <MC1984> i have no data for that though
1104 2013-10-18 20:00:09 <MC1984> what would be good is if the mempool sync protocol happened, and then "transmitting a block" became remote block contruction instead
1105 2013-10-18 20:00:51 <MC1984> so nodes build the valid block out of their own mempool via a txid template transmitted by the winning miner
1106 2013-10-18 20:01:25 <MC1984> that would even out the block racing thing i bet. Id call it my idea but its fairly obvious so i bet its been said before
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1108 2013-10-18 20:02:34 <MC1984> same as the first DS relaying to make low value instant txns 9like vending machines) viable. I said it like a year ago and people seemed meh, now its happening.
1109 2013-10-18 20:02:43 <maaku> if you had a p2p way of querying mempool transactions, you could cut block submission size significantly by just making it header + merkle list + coinbase
1110 2013-10-18 20:03:09 <MC1984> thats what i mean
1111 2013-10-18 20:03:22 <maaku> ok, i thought you meant something else
1112 2013-10-18 20:03:31 <MC1984> it would even out the advantage of mining blocks in a 10bgps datacenter somewhat
1113 2013-10-18 20:03:37 <maaku> i don't know why we don't have a p2p mempool query message yet..
1114 2013-10-18 20:03:55 <MC1984> because devs are volunteers
1115 2013-10-18 20:04:11 <sipa> maaku: we do?
1116 2013-10-18 20:04:20 <sipa> bip 35
1117 2013-10-18 20:05:01 <maaku> bad terminology on my side
1118 2013-10-18 20:05:12 <maaku> i mean a generic gettransaction that pulls from history + mempool
1119 2013-10-18 20:05:25 <MC1984> oh nice
1120 2013-10-18 20:05:30 <sipa> getdata works on mempool
1121 2013-10-18 20:05:33 <MC1984> over a year old though
1122 2013-10-18 20:05:50 <sipa> querying history is intentionally not supported, as it would force a transaction index on full nodes
1123 2013-10-18 20:06:44 <sipa> and bip 37 allows deduplication of transaction transmission
1124 2013-10-18 20:06:45 <warren> Is it normal for distro packaged bitcoind to put data in /var/lib/bitcoin/ and have config in /etc/bitcoin/ ?  Do we want to encourage this?
1125 2013-10-18 20:06:57 <sipa> warren: makes sense to me
1126 2013-10-18 20:07:06 <sipa> warren: if you want it as a system-wide service
1127 2013-10-18 20:07:20 <warren> that's disconnected from the user's bitcoin-qt though
1128 2013-10-18 20:07:20 <sipa> (which is more meaninful once we have nowallet...)
1129 2013-10-18 20:07:23 <maaku> sipa: yes, but having access to the last couple of blocks would allow this submit-pow-only-over-tor scheme without onerous storage requirements
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1131 2013-10-18 20:07:50 <sipa> maaku: what is the client use case?
1132 2013-10-18 20:07:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: I was about to say. "I suppose that really should be run with nowallet"
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1134 2013-10-18 20:08:37 <maaku> grow block size to 100mb (so it's an issue), then hidden mining service wishes to submit block over tor: submit pow header + merkle list + coinbase
1135 2013-10-18 20:08:52 <maaku> other clients fetch any missing transactions from peers, before attempting to validate
1136 2013-10-18 20:09:13 <sipa> s/merkle list/list of txids/
1137 2013-10-18 20:09:18 <sipa> right?
1138 2013-10-18 20:09:19 <maaku> yes
1139 2013-10-18 20:09:28 <sipa> that makes sense
1140 2013-10-18 20:09:43 <sipa> probably not yet at 1 MB blocks, but when increasing the block size, it may
1141 2013-10-18 20:09:55 <warren> gmaxwell: not sure how the packager knew, but they removed the auto rpc password setting
1142 2013-10-18 20:10:58 <gmaxwell> warren: I contacted the author of the old package.
1143 2013-10-18 20:11:39 <gmaxwell> 18 tor peers on my laptop:
1144 2013-10-18 20:11:40 <gmaxwell>    Min. 1st Qu.  Median    Mean 3rd Qu.    Max.
1145 2013-10-18 20:11:40 <gmaxwell>  0.6017  0.8448  1.0030  1.2270  1.1780  4.2150
1146 2013-10-18 20:11:45 <gmaxwell> (pingtimes)
1147 2013-10-18 20:11:59 <warren> gmaxwell: this new packager doesn't seem to be connected to the old aside from copying parts of it
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1149 2013-10-18 20:14:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: did you just get a german email?
1150 2013-10-18 20:14:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: not yet, but if it was to the @xiph.org address the greylisting there makes it kinda slow.
1151 2013-10-18 20:15:16 <phantomcircuit> greylisting works amazingly well
1152 2013-10-18 20:15:26 <sipa> someone who wants to deal in marihuana and whose back accounts were closed, and wants to try bitcoin...
1153 2013-10-18 20:15:27 <phantomcircuit> now all the spam i get is very high quality
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1157 2013-10-18 20:15:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, http://dayofthejedi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/27.jpg
1158 2013-10-18 20:16:45 <sipa> ha
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1160 2013-10-18 20:22:06 <warren> I had to turn off greylisting on my server years ago because some customers of my parent's business had broken e-mail servers.
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1167 2013-10-18 20:25:30 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm afraid the current setup of the package is confusingly disjunct between the user and system
1168 2013-10-18 20:26:39 <graingert_> warren: :(
1169 2013-10-18 20:27:11 <warren> graingert_: what?
1170 2013-10-18 20:28:03 <graingert_> I'm sad
1171 2013-10-18 20:28:07 <graingert_> at the confusing disjunct
1172 2013-10-18 20:28:12 <graingert_> it makes me...
1173 2013-10-18 20:28:15 <graingert_> sad :(
1174 2013-10-18 20:28:32 <graingert_> warren: ^
1175 2013-10-18 20:28:43 <gmaxwell> warren: yea, I think it's bad but I don't think its the package's fault.
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1177 2013-10-18 20:30:13 <gmaxwell> warren: we are not at all suited to being a system service currently.
1178 2013-10-18 20:30:24 <gmaxwell> unless you're not going to use the wallet.
1179 2013-10-18 20:30:51 <skinnkavaj> Have anyone reviewed this yet? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=308972.0
1180 2013-10-18 20:33:01 <warren> gmaxwell: what is the benefit of shipping it as a system service now then?
1181 2013-10-18 20:33:50 <warren> gmaxwell: given this package is missing things to configure it as a service, might as well just ship the plain bitcoind and bitcoin-qt to be used as-is until we have a better plan upstream.
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1183 2013-10-18 20:36:10 <gmaxwell> warren: that sounds reasonable to me.
1184 2013-10-18 20:36:55 <warren> gmaxwell: ok, I'll ask for the selinux policy to confine within homedir for now
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1195 2013-10-18 21:08:45 <warren> gmaxwell: I suppose there's no harm in rpc password autoconfig as long as it's done properly ...
1196 2013-10-18 21:12:13 <gmaxwell> warren: no, and indeed I would have liked to have it internal to bitcoin, in fact its a major risk reduction because if users set it.. they set it like a password instead of an auth token.
1197 2013-10-18 21:12:31 <gmaxwell> But since nowhere else do we modify the bitcoin.conf it seemed kind of odd to do so.
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1223 2013-10-18 22:10:07 <nanotube> anyone checked out the bitcoin full node written in go? https://blog.conformal.com/btcd-not-your-moms-bitcoin-daemon/
1224 2013-10-18 22:11:59 <sipa> i believe gmaxwell has been talking to them
1225 2013-10-18 22:13:35 <gmaxwell> A little.
1226 2013-10-18 22:14:01 <skinnkavaj> Can we have a serious discussion about bit shares? i really think it can work and my gut say me that the developers behind are genius... Here is a video with one of the developers explaining it more easily..
1227 2013-10-18 22:14:02 <skinnkavaj> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnNPX8wc1tc
1228 2013-10-18 22:14:20 <skinnkavaj> please tell me, is it different from ripple? can it help trade bitcoin?
1229 2013-10-18 22:15:25 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: this is really not appropriate subject matter for this channel.
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1232 2013-10-18 22:17:00 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: i think decentralized exchanges is a very appropriate subject for this channel
1233 2013-10-18 22:17:11 <c0rw1n> skinnkavaj: here's the requirements : 1. Trust-free 2. No central authority 3. Run by the swarm, p2p, what's that network architecture you're talking about it has to be flat or not exist. Does the project in that video do that?
1234 2013-10-18 22:17:36 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: It is not.
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1236 2013-10-18 22:20:06 <skinnkavaj> c0rw1n: no, but its really complex.. there is more information in a bitcointalk thread and also an interview at lets talk bitcoin... shame gmaxwell is so hostile towards everything not having the word bitcoin in it, bitshares is not just another altcurrency it tries not to be one either.. its designed to be used with bitcoin
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1239 2013-10-18 22:21:00 <c0rw1n> this channel is specifically for the development of bitcoin software, we should take this to #bitcoin
1240 2013-10-18 22:21:37 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: This channel is a working channel for the development of the core bitcoin software and the maintenance of the network. Many things bitcoin are not on topic here, e.g. extensive discussions about mtgox or bitcointalk or whatever.
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1244 2013-10-18 22:36:08 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: I'm pro-bitshares, but I agree it isn't on-topic here..
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1246 2013-10-18 22:40:00 <olalonde> mmmm
1247 2013-10-18 22:40:16 <olalonde> is it possible to send a transaction which never gets confirmed?
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1249 2013-10-18 22:41:17 <olalonde> although it is valid
1250 2013-10-18 22:41:54 <sipa> yes
1251 2013-10-18 22:42:16 <olalonde> isn't that a possible attack vector
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1253 2013-10-18 22:42:51 <Luke-Jr> no? that's why there's a concept of confirming?
1254 2013-10-18 22:43:14 <olalonde> what if an attacker "saves" the transaction and resends it later
1255 2013-10-18 22:43:19 <olalonde> to the network
1256 2013-10-18 22:43:36 <olalonde> hoping this time the transaction will be included in the blockchain
1257 2013-10-18 22:44:07 <olalonde> is there an expiry date on transactions?
1258 2013-10-18 22:44:11 <sipa> no
1259 2013-10-18 22:44:20 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: uh, what attack is that?
1260 2013-10-18 22:44:28 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: confirmation never hurts a transaction
1261 2013-10-18 22:44:37 <olalonde> ok let me explain
1262 2013-10-18 22:44:51 <olalonde> u go to someone's house, connect on his wifi and send him 10 btc
1263 2013-10-18 22:45:07 <sipa> but if the sender doesn't think his transaction goes through anymore, he can try sending another one which respends the same inputs
1264 2013-10-18 22:45:17 <sipa> then they can never confirm both
1265 2013-10-18 22:45:18 <olalonde> assuming he controls the network, he could lead u to believe that the transaction was sent but never confirmed in the blockchain.. which is true
1266 2013-10-18 22:45:31 <olalonde> but he could also have a copy of the transaction and send it at a later date to the network
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1269 2013-10-18 22:46:06 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: ok?
1270 2013-10-18 22:46:14 <sipa> ok, that's exactly what both parties want
1271 2013-10-18 22:46:23 <olalonde> ok let me rephrase that lol
1272 2013-10-18 22:46:56 * Luke-Jr peers
1273 2013-10-18 22:46:59 <olalonde> you send 10 btc to your attacker .. he intercepts the transaction.. the transaction never makes it to the network. attacker says im sorry , i cannot sell you my car since u failed to pay me.
1274 2013-10-18 22:47:23 <olalonde> he moves to another country and sends the transaction he intercepted to the network
1275 2013-10-18 22:47:34 <olalonde> he's got 10 btc but sender didnt get the car
1276 2013-10-18 22:47:36 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: you paid him.
1277 2013-10-18 22:47:44 <sipa> by then the sender should definitely have respent it
1278 2013-10-18 22:47:48 <Luke-Jr> the transaction's validity is payment.
1279 2013-10-18 22:47:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: currently impossible
1280 2013-10-18 22:47:56 <sipa> if the transaction really didn't go through
1281 2013-10-18 22:48:14 <sipa> you mean with current software? sure
1282 2013-10-18 22:48:23 <sipa> or that nodes will not relay?
1283 2013-10-18 22:48:25 <Luke-Jr> yeah, this is why Bitcoin is still beta. :P
1284 2013-10-18 22:48:31 <sipa> indeed
1285 2013-10-18 22:49:42 * maaku would like a reliable car for 10btc...
1286 2013-10-18 22:49:51 <olalonde> haha
1287 2013-10-18 22:49:59 <Luke-Jr> maaku: seems like a reasonable price for a mere car
1288 2013-10-18 22:50:11 <maaku> Luke-Jr: emphasis on *reliable* i guess
1289 2013-10-18 22:50:30 <sipa> maaku: i'm willing to send you a 1" one for that price
1290 2013-10-18 22:51:08 <Luke-Jr> maaku: yeah, with current prices I'd expect a reliable car for that much
1291 2013-10-18 22:51:09 <maaku> hahaha
1292 2013-10-18 22:51:38 <maaku> it better be a solid gold hot wheels
1293 2013-10-18 22:51:50 <olalonde> i guess best is to use vpn or a network u trust
1294 2013-10-18 22:52:01 <olalonde> otherwise this attack would be possible right?
1295 2013-10-18 22:52:29 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: it's really not. it's the merchant's job to get it confirmed if they want confirmation.
1296 2013-10-18 22:52:43 <Luke-Jr> that's why payments are only sent directly to the merchant, not to the network
1297 2013-10-18 22:52:53 <olalonde> mmm I think u misunderstood me, in this case the attacker is the merchat
1298 2013-10-18 22:52:55 <Luke-Jr> and the merchant has a chance to provide a transaction fee
1299 2013-10-18 22:53:12 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: if I pay for a car, and the merchant doesn't give me the car, I sue him for fraud
1300 2013-10-18 22:54:25 <olalonde> and how are you going to prove that?
1301 2013-10-18 22:54:53 <phantomcircuit> olalonde, an unconfirmed transaction is roughly as risky to accept as a confirmed credit card payment
1302 2013-10-18 22:55:16 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: you have the merchant's signed payment request
1303 2013-10-18 22:55:22 <Luke-Jr> and the transaction receipt
1304 2013-10-18 22:55:23 <phantomcircuit> if you send someone an unconfirmed transaction as payment
1305 2013-10-18 22:55:33 <phantomcircuit> they need to comply with the terms of the agreement
1306 2013-10-18 22:55:54 <olalonde> mmm I guess I wasn't clear. the merchant doesn't accept the payment, that's the whole point. and the naive sender, has no way to know if he got scammed until a few days later
1307 2013-10-18 22:55:55 <phantomcircuit> if they dont it's fraud as Luke-Jr said
1308 2013-10-18 22:56:08 <phantomcircuit> sigh
1309 2013-10-18 22:56:14 <phantomcircuit> of course we understand what you're saying
1310 2013-10-18 22:56:15 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: they agreed to accept it before you signed the transaction
1311 2013-10-18 22:56:35 <phantomcircuit> just because we're saying that you're wrong doesn't mean we didnt understand
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1313 2013-10-18 22:57:03 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: some problems take a court to solve. this is one of them.
1314 2013-10-18 22:57:10 <Luke-Jr> that's why courts exist.
1315 2013-10-18 22:57:12 <olalonde> " an unconfirmed transaction is roughly as risky to accept as a confirmed credit card payment" <-- shows that you didnt understand
1316 2013-10-18 22:57:29 <sipa> that was indeed about a different issue
1317 2013-10-18 22:57:53 <olalonde> Luke-Jr: makes sense I guess
1318 2013-10-18 22:58:00 <sipa> but he's still right: if you send the transaction, and it is valid, you paid them
1319 2013-10-18 22:58:11 <olalonde> would be a good idea to sign a contract before doing the transaction though
1320 2013-10-18 22:58:16 <sipa> if they don't accept that, or claim not to, that is fraud
1321 2013-10-18 22:58:35 <sipa> for a car, you would sign an agreement in advance i guess
1322 2013-10-18 22:59:01 <sipa> maybe not for a candy bar
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1324 2013-10-18 22:59:48 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: the payment protocol effectively has a signed contract before the transaction is signed
1325 2013-10-18 23:00:21 <olalonde> right
1326 2013-10-18 23:00:31 <olalonde> still not widely used though
1327 2013-10-18 23:02:41 <sipa> it's not used at all; no released software uses it
1328 2013-10-18 23:03:01 <sipa> but bitcoin and much of the infrastructure around it is not mature
1329 2013-10-18 23:03:31 <sipa> that doesn't mean that its problems are instrinsically unsolveable
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