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  86 2013-10-19 02:28:18 <coingenuity> who administers bitcoin.org
  87 2013-10-19 02:30:05 <coingenuity> sipa Luke-Jr
  88 2013-10-19 02:31:47 <coingenuity> gavinandresen
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  90 2013-10-19 02:36:22 <MC1984_> saivann isnt it?
  91 2013-10-19 02:36:40 <saivann> Mostly, yes
  92 2013-10-19 02:37:28 <saivann> coingenuity: ping
  93 2013-10-19 02:37:54 <coingenuity> ah, hi saivann
  94 2013-10-19 02:38:10 <coingenuity> http://pastebin.com/hC92AFzt here you are
  95 2013-10-19 02:38:31 <coingenuity> someone's either broken into your MTA, or is spoofing emails
  96 2013-10-19 02:38:52 <coingenuity> might wanna take a look and see if your boxes look normal there
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  98 2013-10-19 02:39:15 <saivann> coingenuity: Yes I saw that on bitcointalk. I doubt we can do anything about it. The domain name is managed by sirius, but this is probably just plain simple spoofing..
  99 2013-10-19 02:39:16 <MC1984_> wuts an MTA
 100 2013-10-19 02:39:41 <coingenuity> ah, ok- glad you're aware
 101 2013-10-19 02:39:48 <coingenuity> was worried some box got owned :)
 102 2013-10-19 02:40:08 <coingenuity> i havent seen sirius in like... couple years... do we still have dns access?
 103 2013-10-19 02:40:19 <coingenuity> if so, we should add an SPF record
 104 2013-10-19 02:40:31 <saivann> coingenuity: Perhaps I can ping sirius just in case.. But I guess that the attacker just "pretend" to be from @bitcoin.org
 105 2013-10-19 02:41:19 <saivann> coingenuity: SPF would be a good idea, and locking the domain name also.. but last time I asked sirius, I didn't get a reply on this subject. Sometime he answers, sometime he doesn't..
 106 2013-10-19 02:41:48 <saivann> To my knowledge, nobody except sirius have access to bitcoin.org dns..
 107 2013-10-19 02:42:12 <coingenuity> im not expert enough on email-blackhat to tell from the headers if it's a local compromise or not, but looking closely it seems like a russian mailserver spoofing bitcoin.org for a vietnamese SMTP originator
 108 2013-10-19 02:42:32 <coingenuity> however, "(HELO ?192.168.0.100?)" makes me nervous
 109 2013-10-19 02:42:57 <coingenuity> in any case, if sirius could add an SPF record for bitcoin.org that would be great, as i would hate to see noobies scammed this way
 110 2013-10-19 02:43:07 <coingenuity> its at least worth asking about :)
 111 2013-10-19 02:44:41 <saivann> coingenuity: I'll ask him. Definitively worth trying to protect users against this. Thanks!
 112 2013-10-19 02:45:02 <coingenuity> sure thing :) wanted to catch it early on
 113 2013-10-19 02:45:34 <coingenuity> [19:41:38] <Eleuthria> Heh, just got a phishing email from "donation@bitcoin.org" trying to solicit donations for Bitcoin Foundation.   Looked so good until the end where it broke into engrish. <<< oh nose :(
 114 2013-10-19 02:46:07 <coingenuity> think i'll keep an eye on this address
 115 2013-10-19 02:50:35 <MC1984_> https://blockchain.info/address/1PPqWCmzDeBxgtfwNPqekzHBTzxnkXba5i
 116 2013-10-19 02:50:44 <MC1984_> dumbass level so far: 0%
 117 2013-10-19 02:51:16 <saivann> Yes, that's reassuring
 118 2013-10-19 02:52:04 <nanotube> coingenuity: from the headers, it's clearly not being sent from bitcoin.org. yes, spf is only thing we can do about that, and even that's far from perfect.
 119 2013-10-19 02:54:17 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 120 2013-10-19 02:55:46 <coingenuity> nanotube: being the crypto nerds we are, we should set up DMARC :D
 121 2013-10-19 02:57:11 <nanotube> heh /me googled.
 122 2013-10-19 02:57:40 <coingenuity> the only non-trivial aspect is integration the dkim privkey into an MTA
 123 2013-10-19 02:57:45 <coingenuity> but that's really not even that bad
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 125 2013-10-19 02:58:05 <nanotube> well the other thing is, if nobody else is using it, it won't do anything. :P
 126 2013-10-19 02:58:53 <coingenuity> dmarc is standard amongst all major mail providers
 127 2013-10-19 02:59:18 <coingenuity> AOL, Comcast, Gmail, Hotmail, Mail.ru, Netease, XS4ALL, Yahoo! <<< short list of some of the major providers
 128 2013-10-19 02:59:32 <nanotube> ah nice
 129 2013-10-19 02:59:49 <coingenuity> https://dmarcian.com/dmarc_adoption/ bigger list
 130 2013-10-19 02:59:51 <coingenuity> :)
 131 2013-10-19 03:00:20 <coingenuity> Total: 3.382 billion supported email addresses
 132 2013-10-19 03:00:22 <coingenuity> heh
 133 2013-10-19 03:00:49 <nanotube> andreasschulze.de 	19 <- lol? :P
 134 2013-10-19 03:01:50 <nanotube> those extra 19 users were really important. >_>
 135 2013-10-19 03:01:57 <coingenuity> lmao
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 167 2013-10-19 05:14:01 <warren> contrib/linearize/linearize.py:		settings['netmagic'] = 'f9beb4d9'
 168 2013-10-19 05:14:03 <warren> what is that?
 169 2013-10-19 05:16:13 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Message_structure
 170 2013-10-19 05:17:22 <olalonde> how do miners know a transaction was already included in the blockchain?
 171 2013-10-19 05:18:50 <olalonde> like lets say i broadcast transaction A, A gets included in the next block
 172 2013-10-19 05:19:05 <olalonde> how do other miners know they should no longer attempt to include A in the following block
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 175 2013-10-19 05:26:14 <olalonde> because it becomes invalid?
 176 2013-10-19 05:28:25 <freewil> well, technically speaking i think when they get the new block, they'll just remove any tx they have in their mempool that are included in the block
 177 2013-10-19 05:29:02 <freewil> so they wont try to do it
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 194 2013-10-19 05:55:38 <olalonde> would it be correct to say that every transaction in the blockchain is unique?
 195 2013-10-19 05:56:04 <olalonde> since you can't use the same output twice
 196 2013-10-19 05:59:12 swulf-- has left ()
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 198 2013-10-19 05:59:41 <swulf--> olalonde: yes, but I believe there's been a hash collision once before
 199 2013-10-19 06:00:14 <olalonde> transaction hash collision?
 200 2013-10-19 06:00:24 <olalonde> so 2 different transactions that hash to the same number?
 201 2013-10-19 06:00:28 <swulf--> yeah
 202 2013-10-19 06:00:39 <olalonde> interesting
 203 2013-10-19 06:00:58 <olalonde> would be curious to see what blockchain.info output would be for that eheh
 204 2013-10-19 06:01:43 <olalonde> actually was it included in the blockchain?
 205 2013-10-19 06:03:05 <swulf--> i'm not sure, I don't recall the specifics
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 207 2013-10-19 06:06:30 <olalonde> http://villaggioinsicilia.com/wp-content/themes/twentytwelve/inc/commercial-bitcoin-mining/bitcoin-hash-collision.php
 208 2013-10-19 06:07:02 <olalonde> (warning: this page contains malware apparently)
 209 2013-10-19 06:07:20 <olalonde> probably a wallet stealing virus
 210 2013-10-19 06:09:58 <olalonde> lol , looks like the articles were generated with a markov chain
 211 2013-10-19 06:16:43 <swulf--> i've noticed about one of those on every page of google search results for certain bitcoin queries
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 213 2013-10-19 06:27:05 <warren> hmm, does linearize.py work for anyone?
 214 2013-10-19 06:27:09 <warren>   File "/home/ltc08/bin/linearize.py", line 68, in getblock
 215 2013-10-19 06:27:11 <warren>     data = hexdata.decode('hex')
 216 2013-10-19 06:27:13 <warren> AttributeError: 'dict' object has no attribute 'decode'
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 223 2013-10-19 06:49:29 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3112
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 233 2013-10-19 07:36:40 <sipa> swulf--: there have been duplicate transactions with the same hash (those are not possible anymore)
 234 2013-10-19 07:36:54 <sipa> but not different transactions with the same hash
 235 2013-10-19 07:37:19 <sipa> sha256 doesn't have known collisions afaik
 236 2013-10-19 07:40:31 <gmaxwell> if you become aware of a sha256 collision you can recieve 0.15 + 0.1 + 0.1 BTC ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293382.0 )
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 256 2013-10-19 09:00:19 <sipa> b.i uses uncompressed pubkeys by default?
 257 2013-10-19 09:03:43 <gmaxwell> Does it support compressed pubkeys at all?
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 260 2013-10-19 09:11:40 <petertodd> It does, but it often avoids using them for backwards compatibility reasons.
 261 2013-10-19 09:11:46 <petertodd> probably mainly the iphone...
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 417 2013-10-19 15:17:58 <skinnkavaj> New mixing service from blockchain.info creator? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40264.msg3367854#msg3367854
 418 2013-10-19 15:18:10 <skinnkavaj> I am a bit confused because i thought blockchain.info survived on that mixing fee :P
 419 2013-10-19 15:19:11 <MagicalTux> anyone knows how one is supposed to get a block and all its detail with recent bitcoind? As I understand it you need to getblockhash/getblock/gettransaction, but gettransaction won't work with unrelated txs
 420 2013-10-19 15:19:15 jakov has joined
 421 2013-10-19 15:19:31 <sipa> MagicalTux: you need -txindex enabled
 422 2013-10-19 15:19:39 <sipa> and use getrawtransaction
 423 2013-10-19 15:19:47 <sipa> gettransaction only queries the wallet, not the blockchain
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 425 2013-10-19 15:21:11 <MagicalTux> sipa: tbqh we're still using the old getblock patch we kept porting to newer bitcoind
 426 2013-10-19 15:21:36 <MagicalTux> worked for us very good so far
 427 2013-10-19 15:22:09 <MagicalTux> (doing one query for each tx will require a lot of queries for large blocks, and has very poor performances)
 428 2013-10-19 15:22:22 <sipa> you can do them in batch, if you're using JSON 2
 429 2013-10-19 15:22:30 <sipa> but yes, there's extra overhead
 430 2013-10-19 15:22:45 <sipa> (send all getrawtransaction queries at once)
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 439 2013-10-19 15:44:12 <catAcomb> Hi.
 440 2013-10-19 15:44:19 <catAcomb> Today I noticed that there is no "restore wallet" feature.
 441 2013-10-19 15:44:23 <catAcomb> This *ought* to be implemented.
 442 2013-10-19 15:44:37 <catAcomb> Or, if not, at least a menu item which opens the correct dir in Explorer (on Windows).
 443 2013-10-19 15:44:42 <skinnkavaj> catAcomb: Restore wallet?
 444 2013-10-19 15:44:47 <catAcomb> I had to hunt and search for the right dir to put the wallet in.
 445 2013-10-19 15:44:54 <catAcomb> skinnkavaj: Yes. It allows easy backing up, but not restoring.
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 495 2013-10-19 17:48:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|catAcomb: so basically a button to rename wallet.dat to something else, copy a user-provided file to datadir/wallet.dat, and rescan?
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 499 2013-10-19 17:50:30 <catAcomb> michagogo|cloud: Yeah.
 500 2013-10-19 17:50:48 <catAcomb> michagogo|cloud: But the simplest thing would simply be for the menu item to open %APPDATA%\bitcoin or whatever.
 501 2013-10-19 17:51:11 <catAcomb> Perhaps with instructions popping up before: "I will now open the dir where you should copy your previously backed up wallet.dat."
 502 2013-10-19 17:51:33 <catAcomb> I mean, what's the point of making backups if you can't put them back easily?
 503 2013-10-19 17:51:41 <catAcomb> I had to ask/hunt for the location to put my stored wallet.dat.
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 506 2013-10-19 17:57:37 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: that exact procedure isn't safe.
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 509 2013-10-19 18:04:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: yeah, I figured it probably isn't -- didn't think it through at all
 510 2013-10-19 18:05:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|catAcomb: the thing is that anything like this would need to be idiotproofed
 511 2013-10-19 18:05:40 <catAcomb> Opening a dir is pretty damn safe and non-ambiguous.
 512 2013-10-19 18:06:03 <Luke-Jr> "what's a dir?"
 513 2013-10-19 18:06:15 PK_ is now known as PK
 514 2013-10-19 18:07:28 <PK> Yea, why would I need to open a deer?
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 520 2013-10-19 18:23:43 <catAcomb> :S
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 543 2013-10-19 19:27:16 <darsie> hi
 544 2013-10-19 19:27:22 roconnor has joined
 545 2013-10-19 19:28:10 <darsie> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Private_key says: Nearly every 256-bit number is a valid private key. Specifically, any 256-bit number between 0x1 and 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141 (b) is a valid private key.
 546 2013-10-19 19:28:44 <darsie> Does that mean 1<key<0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141 ?
 547 2013-10-19 19:29:39 <darsie> So key must be at least 2 and smaller/not including 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141 ?
 548 2013-10-19 19:31:19 <swulf--> darsie: why?  specifically, why cna't a privkey = 0 ?
 549 2013-10-19 19:31:26 <darsie> Also, "nearly every 256-bit number" ??? The vast majority of 256 bit numbers is larger than 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141.
 550 2013-10-19 19:31:36 <darsie> dunno
 551 2013-10-19 19:31:48 <darsie> Says so in the wiki.
 552 2013-10-19 19:32:02 <CodeShark> the vast majority of 256 numbers are far smaller than that
 553 2013-10-19 19:32:26 <darsie> CodeShark: sigh
 554 2013-10-19 19:32:37 <darsie> ohh, right :)
 555 2013-10-19 19:32:48 <darsie> The Fs aren't 0.
 556 2013-10-19 19:33:13 <CodeShark> the public key is computed from the private key by K = k*G where k is the private key (a scalar), G is the generator of the elliptic curve (a point), and K is the public key (another point)
 557 2013-10-19 19:33:29 catAcomb has left ("Leaving")
 558 2013-10-19 19:33:53 <CodeShark> if k = 0, K will be the point at infinity
 559 2013-10-19 19:34:31 <darsie> so k can be 1?
 560 2013-10-19 19:34:50 <CodeShark> the mathematics seem to allow it - although the security is highly questionable :)
 561 2013-10-19 19:35:09 <CodeShark> however, 0 is not allowed because the number must be invertible
 562 2013-10-19 19:35:18 <darsie> Theoretically any valid key should have the same security.
 563 2013-10-19 19:35:31 <CodeShark> not necessarily - small numbers can be brute-forced
 564 2013-10-19 19:35:43 <darsie> so can big numbers.
 565 2013-10-19 19:35:52 <CodeShark> yes, but small numbers are an obvious range to try
 566 2013-10-19 19:35:54 <darsie> If you start near them.
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 569 2013-10-19 19:36:44 <darsie> By this logic, small numbers should be rejected. Then brute forcing would start at bigger numbers. These should be rejected,  too, etc. ;).
 570 2013-10-19 19:37:02 <CodeShark> n = 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141 is the modulus of the curve - this means that n*G = G
 571 2013-10-19 19:37:15 <CodeShark> err...
 572 2013-10-19 19:37:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|like that poison puzzle from the princess bride
 573 2013-10-19 19:37:22 <CodeShark> I mean n*G = point at infinity
 574 2013-10-19 19:37:34 <CodeShark> n*G = 0*G
 575 2013-10-19 19:37:42 <CodeShark> n acts like 0
 576 2013-10-19 19:38:02 <CodeShark> numbers larger than n effectively act the same as the same number mod n
 577 2013-10-19 19:38:09 <CodeShark> so for instance, n + 10 behaves exactly like 10
 578 2013-10-19 19:38:19 <CodeShark> so numbers larger than n are really like small numbers
 579 2013-10-19 19:38:29 <CodeShark> 0 and n cannot be used because they have no inverse
 580 2013-10-19 19:38:29 <darsie> CodeShark: If you made a program that randomly generated private keys, would you reject small keys? Up to which size?
 581 2013-10-19 19:39:02 <CodeShark> the probability of generating a small key is tiny
 582 2013-10-19 19:39:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you made a program that randomly generated keys, you'd never get 1
 583 2013-10-19 19:39:03 <CodeShark> :)
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 585 2013-10-19 19:39:22 <CodeShark> but you should still test these cases since the test is inexpensive
 586 2013-10-19 19:39:28 <darsie> michagogo: 1 is a random number.
 587 2013-10-19 19:39:42 <CodeShark> it's possible - just HIGHLY unlikely if you have a good rng
 588 2013-10-19 19:39:55 <darsie> so, would you reject small keys?
 589 2013-10-19 19:40:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|no
 590 2013-10-19 19:40:14 <darsie> k
 591 2013-10-19 19:40:57 <darsie> Is 1 a valid key?
 592 2013-10-19 19:41:04 <CodeShark> it's the identity
 593 2013-10-19 19:41:09 <darsie> means?
 594 2013-10-19 19:41:22 <CodeShark> it results in trivial signing
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 598 2013-10-19 19:42:02 <darsie> k, so a signature would reveal the private key trivially?
 599 2013-10-19 19:42:07 <CodeShark> yes
 600 2013-10-19 19:42:23 <darsie> Then the first practically valid key is 2?
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 602 2013-10-19 19:43:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|.....
 603 2013-10-19 19:43:25 <darsie> I need to know which random numbers to reject.
 604 2013-10-19 19:43:30 <CodeShark> a private key of 1 means that the public key is the generator of the curve
 605 2013-10-19 19:43:45 <CodeShark> since the generator of the curve is well-known, someone is apt to figure it out
 606 2013-10-19 19:43:53 <darsie> I'm sorry I don't understand the ECDSA maths ...
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 608 2013-10-19 19:44:25 <darsie> Nearly every 256-bit number is a valid private key. Specifically, any 256-bit number between 0x1 and 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141 is a valid private key.
 609 2013-10-19 19:44:54 <michagogo> You don't need to reject any random numbers
 610 2013-10-19 19:44:59 <darsie> So I reject 1 and anything from 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141 ?
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 612 2013-10-19 19:45:22 <CodeShark> anything larger than n is effectively the same as that number minus n
 613 2013-10-19 19:45:37 <CodeShark> 0 and n are mathematically impossible to use
 614 2013-10-19 19:45:39 <michagogo> Oh, if you're SHA256ing, then just reject anything larger than 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141
 615 2013-10-19 19:46:06 <michagogo> (you could wrap around, but then there's a bias towards lower numbers)
 616 2013-10-19 19:46:08 <CodeShark> but yes, you probably want to reject the numbers over n rather than taking the mod in order to not skew the distribution
 617 2013-10-19 19:46:12 <darsie> michagogo: Yes, I'm gonna sha256 a brain wallet passphrase.
 618 2013-10-19 19:46:35 <michagogo> So yes -- just reject anything larger than that
 619 2013-10-19 19:46:44 <darsie> And reject 0 and 1, too.
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 621 2013-10-19 19:47:06 <darsie> 2 would be ok?
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 623 2013-10-19 19:47:34 <CodeShark> I think we're more likely to get wiped out by a giant asteroid before you get 2 if you're using SHA256
 624 2013-10-19 19:47:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...I can guarantee you, you will not get 0, 1, or 2
 625 2013-10-19 19:47:58 <darsie> michagogo: Thank you, dear god :)
 626 2013-10-19 19:48:10 <darsie> michagogo|cloud*
 627 2013-10-19 19:48:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also
 628 2013-10-19 19:48:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You will not get 0b411f74c43d6f68e6fed8cb0d8fd7935dabf1540ba587a96ca8dae66be11be3
 629 2013-10-19 19:48:58 <darsie> ok :)
 630 2013-10-19 19:49:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|nor c736d1ed93d9d236dd8c18f76a918915c54f77eeaf14b926a1ec69f737acfe80
 631 2013-10-19 19:49:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And also not 46f5610b3268dabe9696ab90fe344810c9e6851175eb7746bf82cac6daceac68
 632 2013-10-19 19:49:39 <darsie> Wanna bet a few femtoBTC? :)
 633 2013-10-19 19:50:33 <swulf--> why are 0 and n mathematically invalid to use?
 634 2013-10-19 19:50:41 rlifchitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 635 2013-10-19 19:50:51 <swulf--> seems like G=n*G (mod ..something?..) could be true
 636 2013-10-19 19:51:03 <swulf--> i'm guessing G is the generator for a field with n elements
 637 2013-10-19 19:51:25 <CodeShark> correct, swulf
 638 2013-10-19 19:51:41 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 639 2013-10-19 19:51:52 <CodeShark> well, not a field
 640 2013-10-19 19:51:56 <CodeShark> a group
 641 2013-10-19 19:51:57 <swulf--> ring?
 642 2013-10-19 19:51:59 <swulf--> ah, group
 643 2013-10-19 19:52:14 <swulf--> if it were a field, there'd be the 0 element
 644 2013-10-19 19:52:36 <swulf--> man, abstract algebra from 8 years ago is quite rusty...
 645 2013-10-19 19:52:55 <CodeShark> the group members are points on the curve y^2 = x^3 + 7
 646 2013-10-19 19:53:05 <darsie> I'm thinking of computing many sha256 recursively with filling like 1 GB RAM so smaller brainwallet passwords can be used. What you think about that?
 647 2013-10-19 19:54:23 <CodeShark> given any two distinct points on that curve, the line containing them will intersect the curve at a third point with the exception of y1 = -y2, in which case we say the line intersects the curve "at infinity". given any single point on the curve, the tangent at that point will intersect the curve at exactly one point
 648 2013-10-19 19:54:55 <swulf--> wow
 649 2013-10-19 19:54:55 <CodeShark> this is how we define the group operation - and the "point at infinity" is the group identity element
 650 2013-10-19 19:55:04 <swulf--> thats pretty damn intuitive
 651 2013-10-19 19:56:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|darsie: That still doesn't help
 652 2013-10-19 19:56:51 <michagogo> Because the source doesn't have mush entropy
 653 2013-10-19 19:56:54 <michagogo> much*
 654 2013-10-19 19:57:04 <darsie> michagogo|cloud: But it slows down bruteforcing.
 655 2013-10-19 19:57:47 <olalonde> regarding transactions, how is it possible to verify a signature without the public key? if i understand correctly, addresses are hashes of the public key. is the public key included in the transaction?
 656 2013-10-19 19:57:50 <michagogo> darsie: That's called "security through obscurity"
 657 2013-10-19 19:57:56 <michagogo> olalonde: Yes, it is
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 659 2013-10-19 19:58:07 <olalonde> ah ok, thanks
 660 2013-10-19 19:58:13 <darsie> Hmm, all possible private keys could eventually be computed ... if a small entropy password were used ...
 661 2013-10-19 19:59:40 <swulf--> assuming repeated h(anything) was a generator for the entire domain
 662 2013-10-19 20:00:10 <CodeShark> yes - the coordinates of the point's curves are over a prime field
 663 2013-10-19 20:00:17 <olalonde> is there a web based tool that could let me inspect a raw transaction with labels? blockchain is great but it doesnt let me see the raw hexadecimal transaction
 664 2013-10-19 20:00:19 <swulf--> in things like SHA256?
 665 2013-10-19 20:00:36 <olalonde> and the wiki has some info but its not very detailed
 666 2013-10-19 20:00:56 <CodeShark> if it were possible to prove that sha256 has a generator for the entire domain I think it would constitute a break in its security
 667 2013-10-19 20:01:02 <swulf--> olalonde: actually been thinking of building a site that would do that
 668 2013-10-19 20:01:36 <olalonde> swulf--: I will donate a bit if you pull it off :)
 669 2013-10-19 20:01:38 <CodeShark> if you want to look at the raw transactions, you can always use bitcoind's decoderawtransaction
 670 2013-10-19 20:01:53 <swulf--> code: why? i thought the point of the hash was that the inverse was hard to find
 671 2013-10-19 20:02:23 <swulf--> I think it's not the decoding thats the problem, it's the retrieval of an arbitrary tx
 672 2013-10-19 20:02:39 <CodeShark> you can do that if you enable tx indexing
 673 2013-10-19 20:02:44 <CodeShark> with bitcoind
 674 2013-10-19 20:02:46 <swulf--> getrawtransaction won't tell you the hex for just any tx
 675 2013-10-19 20:02:54 <CodeShark> it will if you enable tx indexing
 676 2013-10-19 20:02:56 <swulf--> ah, tx indexing
 677 2013-10-19 20:04:18 <michagogo> [22:58:07] <olalonde> is there a web based tool that could let me inspect a raw transaction with labels? blockchain is great but it doesnt let me see the raw hexadecimal transaction
 678 2013-10-19 20:04:18 <michagogo> What do you mean by labels?
 679 2013-10-19 20:05:41 <olalonde> well , like what every portion of the transaction is for
 680 2013-10-19 20:06:44 <olalonde> like byte X to Y is a signature, etc.
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 682 2013-10-19 20:07:19 <olalonde> there is some info at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction but it's not complete
 683 2013-10-19 20:07:46 <CodeShark> it would be rather straightforward to write a web interface to bitcoind's decoderawtransaction
 684 2013-10-19 20:08:13 <michagogo> olalonde: I think coinb.in has a decoder tool
 685 2013-10-19 20:08:35 <olalonde> cool
 686 2013-10-19 20:08:43 <michagogo> olalonde: Oh, also...
 687 2013-10-19 20:08:46 <michagogo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction is complete.
 688 2013-10-19 20:09:03 <michagogo> A week or two ago, I dissected a raw transaction using only https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction
 689 2013-10-19 20:09:27 <CodeShark> I've manually dissected a few myself :p
 690 2013-10-19 20:09:31 <michagogo> Oh, actually -- you also want https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
 691 2013-10-19 20:10:50 <olalonde> yeah was going to ask about that actually
 692 2013-10-19 20:11:04 <olalonde> Txin-script and Txout-script for a standard transaction
 693 2013-10-19 20:11:29 <olalonde> txin would include your signature right?
 694 2013-10-19 20:11:55 <michagogo> olalonde: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Standard_Transaction_to_Bitcoin_address_.28pay-to-pubkey-hash.29
 695 2013-10-19 20:11:57 <olalonde> and Txout would include your address?
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 697 2013-10-19 20:12:11 <olalonde> thanks
 698 2013-10-19 20:13:47 <olalonde> Txin basically solves the previous Txout
 699 2013-10-19 20:13:55 <michagogo> Exactly.
 700 2013-10-19 20:14:22 <olalonde> and Txout sets a new challenge to solve
 701 2013-10-19 20:14:31 <michagogo> That's right :-)
 702 2013-10-19 20:14:36 <olalonde> makes sense :)
 703 2013-10-19 20:14:43 <michagogo> Basically, the txin script sets up the stack such that the txout script that it's spending will complete with a non-zero output
 704 2013-10-19 20:14:57 <michagogo> erm, non-zero top item on the stack, that is
 705 2013-10-19 20:15:20 <michagogo> note that that's 2 separate things
 706 2013-10-19 20:15:28 <michagogo> 1. complete
 707 2013-10-19 20:15:37 <michagogo> 2. do so with a non-zero top item on the stack
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 709 2013-10-19 20:16:38 <michagogo> (there are a few cases where the script is aborted and fails before executing the whole thing -- OP_RETURN, and OP_*VERIFY if whatever's being verified fails
 710 2013-10-19 20:16:41 <michagogo> )
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 717 2013-10-19 20:28:01 <dansmithbtc2> HI, is there an easy-to-use tool to send messages (mempool, getdata) to nodes and parse responses?
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 723 2013-10-19 20:34:25 <CodeShark> dunno about easy-to-use, but this could be modified to do that: https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses/blob/master/examples/ping/ping.cpp
 724 2013-10-19 20:35:51 <gmaxwell> 0_o "Bitcoin's core code is written in Typescript, which is compiled into C++"
 725 2013-10-19 20:36:04 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: who wrote that?
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 732 2013-10-19 20:42:57 <gmaxwell> This person, http://courses.ischool.berkeley.edu/i290m-ocpp/site/article/nmerrill-assign3.html
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 734 2013-10-19 20:45:36 <dansmithbtc2> Which message does a node send to broadcast their transaction. I'm looking at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification. Is it inv ?
 735 2013-10-19 20:46:14 <CodeShark> you can send an inv to alert other nodes that you have it - and you'd use a tx message to actually send it
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 737 2013-10-19 20:47:08 <gmaxwell> dansmithbtc2: inv offers it, other nodes request it if they don't know it already.
 738 2013-10-19 20:47:54 <CodeShark> you send an inv, the other node sends a getdata, you send a tx
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 740 2013-10-19 20:48:25 <dansmithbtc2> CodeShark, gmaxwell, thanks all clear now
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 748 2013-10-19 20:51:52 <CodeShark> wondering whether it would make sense to support an ack message to verify the node accepted the transaction as valid and will relay it
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 750 2013-10-19 20:52:17 <CodeShark> could be useful when it comes to things like fee rules
 751 2013-10-19 20:53:03 <CodeShark> or nonstandard transaction rules
 752 2013-10-19 20:53:44 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: meh: increases traffic, nodes can lie, tells you nothing about behavior two hops away. The better alternative is to announce only to a small number of peers and see what shows up from your neighbors.
 753 2013-10-19 20:53:56 <gmaxwell> Which apparently bitcoinj does (and we also do the fractional broadcast part at least)
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 783 2013-10-19 22:09:37 <Matt_von_Mises> Does anyone know why HMAC is used for the master key generation in BIP0032? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032#Master_key_generation
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 805 2013-10-19 22:46:10 <jegs> any way to configure the bitcoind server to allow queries about transactions and addresses not in the wallet on that server? i want to verify transactions and such without actually holding money on the server itself
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 809 2013-10-19 22:48:10 <Luke-Jr> jegs: getrawtransaction
 810 2013-10-19 22:48:23 <jegs> Luke-Jr: thanks
 811 2013-10-19 22:48:35 <sipa> darsie: keys are at least one, and at most that nukber minus one
 812 2013-10-19 22:48:41 <Luke-Jr> jegs: you may need to enable -txindex depending on your use case
 813 2013-10-19 22:48:50 <sipa> the largest valid private key in hex ends in4140
 814 2013-10-19 22:49:01 <Luke-Jr> jegs: future versions will be adding support for watch-only wallets
 815 2013-10-19 22:49:11 <Luke-Jr> jegs: ie, wallets without the ability to spend money
 816 2013-10-19 22:49:13 <jegs> nice, thanks
 817 2013-10-19 22:49:18 <jegs> yeah that's exactly what i want
 818 2013-10-19 22:49:49 <jegs> is that coming around this year you think or no eta?
 819 2013-10-19 22:49:54 <Luke-Jr> jegs: a workaround that can be done today, is to create a wallet with infinitely large keypool, make a copy, and encrypt the copy, and then throw away the passphrase
 820 2013-10-19 22:50:07 <Luke-Jr> jegs: where infinitely large means "large enough you never use it up"
 821 2013-10-19 22:51:00 <Luke-Jr> an encrypted wallet for which no passphrase is known, is effectively watch-only
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 823 2013-10-19 22:52:04 <olalonde> is ECDSA deterministic?
 824 2013-10-19 22:52:11 <olalonde> for transaction signatures
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 826 2013-10-19 22:52:26 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: with some standards
 827 2013-10-19 22:52:39 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: it is not probably deterministic without the private key, however
 828 2013-10-19 22:52:39 <olalonde> the one used to sign transactions?
 829 2013-10-19 22:52:57 <Luke-Jr> ie, only the person with the private key can prove he did it deterministically
 830 2013-10-19 22:53:04 <olalonde> right
 831 2013-10-19 22:53:10 <jegs> so an encrypted wallet means, a wallet with only the private keys encrypted?
 832 2013-10-19 22:53:11 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: it's an existing construction for such purposes :)
 833 2013-10-19 22:53:15 <Luke-Jr> jegs: yes
 834 2013-10-19 22:53:27 <olalonde> well i guess my question is which one does bitcoin use?
 835 2013-10-19 22:53:33 <olalonde> deterministic ECDSA?
 836 2013-10-19 22:53:48 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: as only the private party can tell if it's deterministic, Bitcoin cannot enforce any specific behaviour
 837 2013-10-19 22:54:14 <sipa> olalonde: bitcoind and bitcoin-qt do not create deterministic signature
 838 2013-10-19 22:54:18 <olalonde> interesting
 839 2013-10-19 22:54:20 <sipa> maybe in the near future they will
 840 2013-10-19 22:54:28 <sipa> though as luke says, it cannot be enforced
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 842 2013-10-19 22:54:59 <olalonde> i've just read on wikipedia that ECDSA is vulnerable if the same k is used to sign 2 different messages
 843 2013-10-19 22:55:06 <sipa> yes
 844 2013-10-19 22:55:07 <jegs> can i run 'getnewaddress' on an encrypted wallet?
 845 2013-10-19 22:55:12 <sipa> not an issue if you have a decent rng
 846 2013-10-19 22:55:24 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: correct usage of Bitcoin never signs two different messages with the same ECDSA key
 847 2013-10-19 22:55:28 <sipa> jegs: yes, it takes an address from its keypool
 848 2013-10-19 22:55:31 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: so not really a problem in any case
 849 2013-10-19 22:55:49 <jegs> sipa: well can the keypool be replenished without decrypting?
 850 2013-10-19 22:55:51 <olalonde> mmm im  a bit confused
 851 2013-10-19 22:55:58 <Luke-Jr> jegs: no, that's why you make it infinite ;)
 852 2013-10-19 22:56:05 <jegs> ahh
 853 2013-10-19 22:56:14 <olalonde> isn't the private key the ECDSA key?
 854 2013-10-19 22:56:21 <sipa> yes
 855 2013-10-19 22:56:29 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: the private key is used exactly once, when you spend the coin sent to an address
 856 2013-10-19 22:56:35 <olalonde> so, the same key is used to sign multiple messages no?
 857 2013-10-19 22:56:43 <Luke-Jr> no
 858 2013-10-19 22:56:43 <olalonde> oh
 859 2013-10-19 22:56:49 <Luke-Jr> since addresses are only used once
 860 2013-10-19 22:56:55 <sipa> in correct usage, you never use the same address to receive multiple transactions
 861 2013-10-19 22:57:03 <Polyatomic> how do you make the keypool infinite ?
 862 2013-10-19 22:57:09 <Luke-Jr> Polyatomic: -keypool=10000000
 863 2013-10-19 22:57:11 <Luke-Jr> :P
 864 2013-10-19 22:57:11 <olalonde> I didn't get that
 865 2013-10-19 22:57:17 <sipa> there are privacy and mild security advanyages to never reusing addresses
 866 2013-10-19 22:58:45 <olalonde> so if you have 100 btc on one address and want to send 1 btc to another address, the remaining 99 will be sent to a new address that u control right?
 867 2013-10-19 22:59:01 <olalonde> and the original private key will be useless?
 868 2013-10-19 22:59:48 <jegs> Luke-Jr: so, let's say I generate this wallet with "infinite" keys, and copy it up to my public server. I'll encrypt it there and use a random and very long passphrase that I'll not record. The original copy on my offline machine will have access to those funds, correct? Sounds obvious just want to be 110% sure I understand.
 869 2013-10-19 23:00:21 <Luke-Jr> jegs: I'd advise encrypting it BEFORE uploading
 870 2013-10-19 23:00:35 <jegs> Luke-Jr: err, right :) good call
 871 2013-10-19 23:00:37 <Luke-Jr> jegs: since the hard drive may have the pre-encrypted copy otherwise
 872 2013-10-19 23:00:42 <jegs> indeed
 873 2013-10-19 23:00:46 <jegs> that's what I uh, meant to say
 874 2013-10-19 23:00:47 <jegs> lol
 875 2013-10-19 23:00:51 <sipa> olalonde: not useless, but the reference client will not reuse it
 876 2013-10-19 23:01:02 <olalonde> ok
 877 2013-10-19 23:01:02 <sipa> olalonde: you can of course keep using it to receive coins
 878 2013-10-19 23:01:09 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: right, although coins aren't stored "on addresses", just in a wallet with a given ECDSA private key
 879 2013-10-19 23:01:16 <sipa> it's just compromising for your and other's privacy
 880 2013-10-19 23:01:22 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: the address form is only used to specify the recipient
 881 2013-10-19 23:01:47 <jegs> Luke-Jr: can you estimate the size of a wallet.dat that is encrypted and has 10M keys in it?
 882 2013-10-19 23:01:50 <olalonde> well if u keep using the private key, u will be signing 2 ecdsa messages using the same key no?
 883 2013-10-19 23:02:04 <sipa> jegs: more than 100k keys is painful
 884 2013-10-19 23:02:21 <Luke-Jr> jegs: 10000 is 3 MB
 885 2013-10-19 23:02:25 <sipa> olalonde: not the same
 886 2013-10-19 23:02:35 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: you're not supposed to
 887 2013-10-19 23:02:38 <sipa> oh, the same key yes
 888 2013-10-19 23:02:44 <jegs> the entire wallet never has to be loaded into memory at once, correct/
 889 2013-10-19 23:02:50 <Luke-Jr> jegs: it always must be
 890 2013-10-19 23:02:51 <sipa> but that isn't a problem (though you still shouldnt)
 891 2013-10-19 23:03:03 <Luke-Jr> jegs: at least, with the current implementation
 892 2013-10-19 23:03:20 <jegs> so this makes a 10M key wallet a bit unfeasible for a small shop :p
 893 2013-10-19 23:03:22 <Luke-Jr> it's a problem if your k is not random enough, or if quantum computers get created someday, etc
 894 2013-10-19 23:03:27 <olalonde> sipa: yeah, i meant same key, not same message
 895 2013-10-19 23:03:44 <olalonde> yeah, that's why I was asking about deterministic ECDSA Luke-Jr
 896 2013-10-19 23:03:50 <sipa> jegs: the same of a wallet is mostly determined by the number of transactions, not keus
 897 2013-10-19 23:03:55 <Luke-Jr> and even if neither of those are the case, it's still got less privacy than you'd expect from any kind of money store
 898 2013-10-19 23:04:55 <sipa> olalonde: we may switch to determibistic signing at some point
 899 2013-10-19 23:05:05 <sipa> currenrly with openssl it's a bit hars to do
 900 2013-10-19 23:05:15 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 901 2013-10-19 23:07:27 <jegs> with the advent of machines like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Wave_Two is all encryption and everything that depends on it gone to shit?
 902 2013-10-19 23:07:30 <olalonde> cool
 903 2013-10-19 23:07:54 <sipa> jegs: d-wave is not a general purpose quantum computer
 904 2013-10-19 23:08:09 <jegs> it only solves "discrete optimization" problems right?
 905 2013-10-19 23:08:18 <sipa> it's computing tehnology based on quantum effects, but it's not a auqntum computer
 906 2013-10-19 23:08:22 <jegs> but could they just as easily made it to crack keys?
 907 2013-10-19 23:08:27 apurplehorse has joined
 908 2013-10-19 23:08:30 <sipa> no
 909 2013-10-19 23:08:38 <sipa> well, i suppose it can
 910 2013-10-19 23:08:53 <sipa> bit it doesn't have the superlinear speedup that quantum computing would bring
 911 2013-10-19 23:09:30 <jegs> ok so "we're safe" for now lol
 912 2013-10-19 23:09:34 GMP has joined
 913 2013-10-19 23:09:38 <sipa> yes
 914 2013-10-19 23:09:46 <sipa> i don't worry about QC
 915 2013-10-19 23:10:01 <Luke-Jr> jegs: as long as you only use addresses once, you're pretty safe against QC in any case
 916 2013-10-19 23:10:09 <sipa> by the time they can create 128-bit quantum computers, i'll start worrying
 917 2013-10-19 23:10:19 <Luke-Jr> (assuming the QC is known and you stop sending bitcoins when they go online)
 918 2013-10-19 23:10:22 <sipa> right now, afaik, the best is a 4-bit one
 919 2013-10-19 23:10:41 <jegs> only a matter of time :/
 920 2013-10-19 23:10:49 <sipa> i doubt that
 921 2013-10-19 23:10:58 <jegs> you think there's physical limits to the number of bits?
 922 2013-10-19 23:11:04 <Luke-Jr> qubits*
 923 2013-10-19 23:11:12 <sipa> no, but i do think there are engineering limits to it
 924 2013-10-19 23:11:27 <sipa> and that addig bits will probably become exponentially harder
 925 2013-10-19 23:12:39 <MC1984_> maybe the topic needs a new section
 926 2013-10-19 23:12:42 <jegs> just using my intuition and looking at the last 50 years of computing, it seems that whatever barriers there are now would be overcome
 927 2013-10-19 23:12:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not when jorash finishes his QC simulator!11one <.<
 928 2013-10-19 23:12:49 <MC1984_> "dont be scared of D-Wave"
 929 2013-10-19 23:13:14 <sipa> haha
 930 2013-10-19 23:13:27 <sipa> jegs: maybe
 931 2013-10-19 23:13:32 <sipa> but we'll see it coming
 932 2013-10-19 23:14:07 <MC1984_> what im scared of is that lots of qubits are possible but only ever under lab conditions
 933 2013-10-19 23:14:15 <MC1984_> we are so buggered if thats the case
 934 2013-10-19 23:14:40 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: "lab conditions"?
 935 2013-10-19 23:14:49 <Luke-Jr> I think you'd quickly see those conditions leave the lab.
 936 2013-10-19 23:15:24 sacrelege has joined
 937 2013-10-19 23:15:44 <MC1984_> like 0 kelvin and superconduction and shit?
 938 2013-10-19 23:16:07 <MC1984_> cant just slap a waterblock on that bad boy
 939 2013-10-19 23:16:18 <Luke-Jr> I think you'd quickly see those conditions leave the lab.
 940 2013-10-19 23:16:38 <MC1984_> i dont know
 941 2013-10-19 23:17:00 <MC1984_> even if we did, not on the scale a facility could manage
 942 2013-10-19 23:17:11 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
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 944 2013-10-19 23:17:21 <MC1984_> whereas you could break an average datacenter up and put it in peoples houses instead if you wanted to
 945 2013-10-19 23:17:35 Diapolis has joined
 946 2013-10-19 23:17:59 <Luke-Jr> normal computers used to take up entire rooms too
 947 2013-10-19 23:18:52 <MC1984_> well
 948 2013-10-19 23:19:19 <jegs> does bitcoin-qt run bitcoind? i want to interact with a wallet using both a GUI and api commands from the command line
 949 2013-10-19 23:19:27 <MC1984_> i look forward to powering my new Quantumstar 3000 computer off the tabletop fusion torus i keep in the shed behind the house
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 951 2013-10-19 23:19:43 <Luke-Jr> jegs: more or less - use the -server option
 952 2013-10-19 23:19:59 <Luke-Jr> jegs: they share the same codebase, and bitcoin-qt is always built with bitcoind's code embedded
 953 2013-10-19 23:20:38 TheLordOfTime has joined
 954 2013-10-19 23:20:53 <jegs> i see, so if i run bitcoin-qt -server -data-dir=/whatever, i can then run 'bitcoind somecommand'?
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 956 2013-10-19 23:22:59 <sipa> yes
 957 2013-10-19 23:23:03 <sipa> no need for the datadir
 958 2013-10-19 23:23:09 <sipa> (it's without -)
 959 2013-10-19 23:23:53 r5k431 has joined
 960 2013-10-19 23:24:16 <jegs> i have non-standard location
 961 2013-10-19 23:24:22 <jegs> i don't want it to startup and create a new one
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 964 2013-10-19 23:28:26 <sipa> right, sure
 965 2013-10-19 23:28:46 <sipa> you may need to pass the datadir to bitcoind as well, if you want it to find your rpcpass automatically
 966 2013-10-19 23:30:00 <jegs> yeah that's what i'm doing now
 967 2013-10-19 23:30:28 <jegs> ok so it turns out i actualy need an API call that will let me list transactions for an address (not necessarily in my wallet)
 968 2013-10-19 23:30:38 <jegs> i only see 'listtransactions' and that takes an account
 969 2013-10-19 23:30:56 oleganza has joined
 970 2013-10-19 23:31:53 <sipa> you have lostreceivedbyaddress
 971 2013-10-19 23:31:56 <jegs> i'm wondering how blockchain.info does it
 972 2013-10-19 23:31:58 <sipa> *list
 973 2013-10-19 23:32:05 <jegs> ok let me check that out
 974 2013-10-19 23:32:06 <sipa> using a hige index
 975 2013-10-19 23:32:10 <oleganza> hey! I wonder if anyone already proposed a way to avoid scanning/indexing UTXO: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=314467.msg3370937
 976 2013-10-19 23:32:10 <sipa> huge
 977 2013-10-19 23:32:52 <sipa> oleganza: huh, a full utxo database is 200 MB
 978 2013-10-19 23:33:11 <jegs> sipa: listreceivedbyaddress still required that address to be in your wallet
 979 2013-10-19 23:33:33 <sipa> yes of course
 980 2013-10-19 23:33:37 <sipa> it's a wallet api
 981 2013-10-19 23:33:41 <oleganza> really? I heard from some guy that their full UTXO index for all transactions (not only personal wallet ones) is 100 Gb.
 982 2013-10-19 23:33:57 <sipa> they're using abe i guess :p
 983 2013-10-19 23:33:58 <oleganza> maybe i misunderstood something
 984 2013-10-19 23:34:13 <sipa> the reference client maintains an utxo set internally
 985 2013-10-19 23:34:20 <sipa> in the chainstate directory
 986 2013-10-19 23:34:37 <sipa> 254 MB now
 987 2013-10-19 23:34:59 <oleganza> so why the hell people are so obsessed with UTXO growing?
 988 2013-10-19 23:35:01 <MC1984_> oh no
 989 2013-10-19 23:35:06 <sipa> indexing it by address would add a few hundred MB
 990 2013-10-19 23:35:18 <sipa> oleganza: because it will, and every node needs fast access tovit
 991 2013-10-19 23:35:37 <sipa> contrary to the blockchain
 992 2013-10-19 23:35:48 <oleganza> okay, so what about this solution: no one needs to store full UTXO index. But senders send parent txs with their branches.
 993 2013-10-19 23:35:50 <sipa> which is just lots of data, but all you need to do is read it in once
 994 2013-10-19 23:36:00 <MC1984_> how fast is fast
 995 2013-10-19 23:36:05 <oleganza> so every receiving node immediately can check if the parents are already validated
 996 2013-10-19 23:36:10 <sipa> fast enough to validate blocks
 997 2013-10-19 23:36:13 <oleganza> without indexing UTXO or scanning blockchain
 998 2013-10-19 23:36:15 <MC1984_> what about an SSD?
 999 2013-10-19 23:36:20 <sipa> oleganza: that is what the utxo set is for...
1000 2013-10-19 23:36:24 roconnor has joined
1001 2013-10-19 23:36:32 <sipa> quickly knowing what is alreadyvalodated
1002 2013-10-19 23:36:37 <sipa> already validating
1003 2013-10-19 23:36:39 <jegs> listreceivedbyaddress gives me an error anyway: {"code"=>-1, "message"=>"value is type str, expected int"} shouldn't it expect a string which is the address?
1004 2013-10-19 23:36:58 <sipa> check the documentation
1005 2013-10-19 23:36:59 <jegs> ah nevermind i see it doesn't take arguments :p
1006 2013-10-19 23:37:04 <jegs> or not the address
1007 2013-10-19 23:37:41 <sipa> MC1984_: even disk is fast enough now, with some cache on top
1008 2013-10-19 23:37:45 <jegs> sipa: are there any non-wallet apis?
1009 2013-10-19 23:37:54 <sipa> MC1984_: by fast i just mean "readily available"
1010 2013-10-19 23:38:27 <sipa> jegs: getrawtransaction can get you any transaction from the chain, if you enable -txindex
1011 2013-10-19 23:38:40 <MC1984_> oh thats not so bad
1012 2013-10-19 23:38:41 <sipa> (except the genesis tx, if you'd want to try that one)
1013 2013-10-19 23:39:06 <sipa> MC1984_: it is bad with todays technology if the chainstate were hundred gb
1014 2013-10-19 23:39:07 Coincide_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1016 2013-10-19 23:39:28 <MC1984_> well yes
1017 2013-10-19 23:39:35 <jegs> sipa: yes i noticed that and it works nicely but i don't think i can use that to look up transactions by receiving address
1018 2013-10-19 23:39:39 Coincidental has joined
1019 2013-10-19 23:39:58 <MC1984_> it wouldnt have been bad ten years ago to have it 250mb
1020 2013-10-19 23:40:03 <MC1984_> would*
1021 2013-10-19 23:40:42 <sipa> jegs: no, that requires an additional multi-gb index, which isnt needed for normal operation
1022 2013-10-19 23:41:10 <sipa> and the reference client doesn't have that
1023 2013-10-19 23:41:25 <sipa> watch-only wallets are likely what you need, but not yet implemented
1024 2013-10-19 23:41:34 <sipa> (well, not yet merged)
1025 2013-10-19 23:41:57 Raziel has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1026 2013-10-19 23:42:24 <jegs> with the yet-to-be-merged watch-only wallets, i wouldn't have to create the massive keypool?
1027 2013-10-19 23:42:40 <sipa> you can just add addresses to watch
1028 2013-10-19 23:42:45 <jegs> oh nice
1029 2013-10-19 23:42:48 <sipa> on the fly
1030 2013-10-19 23:42:49 <jegs> can i just build it myself then?
1031 2013-10-19 23:43:27 <jegs> you said it's not merged so i suppose i could build from a branch?
1032 2013-10-19 23:43:46 <sipa> yes
1033 2013-10-19 23:43:53 <sipa> tjere's a pullreq for it
1034 2013-10-19 23:44:02 <sipa> but it's a development branch
1035 2013-10-19 23:44:10 <sipa> i would advise against using it in production
1036 2013-10-19 23:44:37 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1037 2013-10-19 23:44:38 <gmaxwell> the final version of the watching support may also be interface incompatible with the current implementation.
1038 2013-10-19 23:45:02 <jegs> well this is for a personal project
1039 2013-10-19 23:45:08 <jegs> only gotta answer to myself
1040 2013-10-19 23:45:11 <jegs> so i'm ok with that
1041 2013-10-19 23:46:04 <jegs> i don't see the branch on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/branches is it still private?
1042 2013-10-19 23:46:16 olalonde has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1043 2013-10-19 23:47:48 <sipa> you're not looking at pull requests
1044 2013-10-19 23:47:52 <jegs> yeah sorry :p
1045 2013-10-19 23:48:01 <sipa> branches is the branches of the master repository
1046 2013-10-19 23:48:17 <sipa> pull requests live in other people's branches, they've only been requested to be merged
1047 2013-10-19 23:48:26 <jegs> cool, i get it
1048 2013-10-19 23:48:27 olalonde has joined
1049 2013-10-19 23:48:28 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls
1050 2013-10-19 23:49:13 <jegs> there are a lot could you just give me the pr # ? :p
1051 2013-10-19 23:49:24 <jegs> it seems you don't want me to be running this feature yet lol
1052 2013-10-19 23:49:25 <sipa> 2861
1053 2013-10-19 23:49:27 <jegs> thanks
1054 2013-10-19 23:50:02 <jegs> what a nice smile you have sipa
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