1 2013-10-20 00:01:02 dlidstrom has joined
   2 2013-10-20 00:04:02 shesek has joined
   3 2013-10-20 00:06:12 <jegs> omg latest bitcoin build failed
   4 2013-10-20 00:06:30 <jegs> oh shit nevermind that weas in september
   5 2013-10-20 00:06:49 <jegs> and only for BlueMatt
   6 2013-10-20 00:06:50 <jegs> lol
   7 2013-10-20 00:07:31 paraipan has joined
   8 2013-10-20 00:11:06 <sipa> just rebased it; checking whether it still builds
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  18 2013-10-20 00:28:39 <jegs> sipa: thanks! i was going to try that myself lol i appreciate it
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  21 2013-10-20 00:28:58 <jegs> what is the maximum length of a transaction id?
  22 2013-10-20 00:29:30 <jegs> sorry i suck at using the wiki
  23 2013-10-20 00:29:39 <jegs> lots of information but not the particular answer i'm looking for lol
  24 2013-10-20 00:29:41 <sipa> ?
  25 2013-10-20 00:29:48 <sipa> a transaction id is a 256-bit number
  26 2013-10-20 00:30:01 <sipa> it's usually represented as a 64-character hex string
  27 2013-10-20 00:30:13 <jegs> cool
  28 2013-10-20 00:30:22 <jegs> i couldn't immediately ascertain that from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions lol
  29 2013-10-20 00:30:34 <super3> my lastest pull request: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3106
  30 2013-10-20 00:30:49 <super3> if there is anything I should include in there just let me know
  31 2013-10-20 00:32:39 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
  32 2013-10-20 00:35:12 Luke-Jr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  33 2013-10-20 00:36:26 <super3> thanks sipa
  34 2013-10-20 00:36:39 <sipa> yw
  35 2013-10-20 00:37:16 <super3> one of these days i'm just going to put "SYN" in my commit message and see if anyone gets the joke.
  36 2013-10-20 00:37:42 <sipa> i'm always sad that people use 'NACK' rather than 'NAK'
  37 2013-10-20 00:38:44 <super3> heh
  38 2013-10-20 00:39:05 <super3> i'm going to start using that then
  39 2013-10-20 00:39:26 <super3> jegs: not your fault. the wiki is a mess.
  40 2013-10-20 00:39:41 <sipa> the wiki is indeed very outdated and incomplete
  41 2013-10-20 00:40:21 MobiusL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  42 2013-10-20 00:40:55 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
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  44 2013-10-20 00:42:48 <jegs> ah cool, not just me then :p the wiki has a lot of good info on it though so no digs against whoever maintains it
  45 2013-10-20 00:42:58 <jegs> sipa:  + 80f2644...3d9c424 watchonly  -> origin/watchonly  (forced update)
  46 2013-10-20 00:43:06 <jegs> first time i've seen "forced update" from git
  47 2013-10-20 00:43:14 <jegs> what's that about?
  48 2013-10-20 00:43:23 <sipa> ok
  49 2013-10-20 00:43:43 <jegs> lol sorry hyper today just talking out loud
  50 2013-10-20 00:43:45 <jegs> i'll ask google :p
  51 2013-10-20 00:43:47 <sipa> so it happens because the current version of the remote branch is not a "descendant" from the previous version
  52 2013-10-20 00:43:54 <jegs> ohh
  53 2013-10-20 00:43:59 <super3> honestly i'm thinking of just building a website for Bitcoin docs
  54 2013-10-20 00:44:02 <sipa> instead, it's a rewritten version based on newer history
  55 2013-10-20 00:44:16 <sipa> super3: any reason for not just updating the wiki instead? :)
  56 2013-10-20 00:44:39 Eneerge has joined
  57 2013-10-20 00:44:46 <super3> organization of information, why not just build a reward/bounty system right in the website
  58 2013-10-20 00:45:00 <super3> give people a reason to actually contribute
  59 2013-10-20 00:45:09 <sipa> what would the reward be?
  60 2013-10-20 00:45:19 <super3> probably micro bitcoins
  61 2013-10-20 00:45:20 jrmithdobbs has joined
  62 2013-10-20 00:45:34 <sipa> oh, actual money
  63 2013-10-20 00:45:36 <sipa> i doubt that will work
  64 2013-10-20 00:46:08 Luke-Jr has joined
  65 2013-10-20 00:46:11 <sipa> giving a monetary reward often makes people feel they're being paid for something rather than doing it voluntarily
  66 2013-10-20 00:46:18 <super3> eh gamification works pretty well
  67 2013-10-20 00:46:27 <super3> i'll give an example
  68 2013-10-20 00:46:42 <sipa> so if it's not enough to be actually valuable, it can decrease participation
  69 2013-10-20 00:47:01 <sipa> it's why you get a bag of presents when donating blood, rather than being paid
  70 2013-10-20 00:48:00 <super3> i mean whenever i talk to a developer face to face about bitcoin docs we can pretty much agree that they need work
  71 2013-10-20 00:48:16 <super3> im currently working on tutorials/documentation for bitcoin armory
  72 2013-10-20 00:48:30 <super3> someone paid me to build it and offer it to the community
  73 2013-10-20 00:48:42 <super3> i feel like it would work the same way for regular docs
  74 2013-10-20 00:49:47 <tgs3> sipa: you need a Hayek's book? :)
  75 2013-10-20 00:49:54 <super3> just throw out a 0.25 btc bounty on how to compile bitcoin on a certian special system, and someone has done that before could write it up easily
  76 2013-10-20 00:50:28 <super3> i mean reddit karma points are worthess, but they are still one of the most trafficked sites on the net
  77 2013-10-20 00:50:33 <tgs3> sipa: instrict/internal movitivation is good, but there are things like upkeep of family, rent, or being robbed by tax that one has to devote time to
  78 2013-10-20 00:51:14 <tgs3> ideally you have both
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  80 2013-10-20 00:53:44 <sipa> super3: things change when the amounts are significant
  81 2013-10-20 00:53:54 <sipa> 0.25 BTC != microbitcoins
  82 2013-10-20 00:54:58 <sipa> super3: also, if it's specific questions, bitcoin.stackexchange.com works pretty well
  83 2013-10-20 00:55:37 <sipa> but it's not very appropriate for reference material
  84 2013-10-20 00:56:59 olalonde has quit (Quit: olalonde)
  85 2013-10-20 00:58:02 <sipa> tgs3: right, it's about when you _don't_ need the reward as an income
  86 2013-10-20 00:58:43 <sipa> and "microbitcoins" certainly (at the current exchange rate) won't function as income for anyone i guess
  87 2013-10-20 00:59:14 <jegs> sipa: configure is asking for libprotobuf after installing dependencies listed in the docs
  88 2013-10-20 00:59:58 <sipa> so the documentation needs to be updated :)
  89 2013-10-20 01:00:10 <sipa> qt in head now requires libprotobuf indeed
  90 2013-10-20 01:00:52 <jegs> i see
  91 2013-10-20 01:00:58 <jegs> who is in charge of build docs?
  92 2013-10-20 01:01:08 <sipa> we're all volunteers
  93 2013-10-20 01:01:16 <sipa> but i'm sure we'll fix things before releae
  94 2013-10-20 01:01:18 <sipa> *release
  95 2013-10-20 01:01:50 transisto has joined
  96 2013-10-20 01:02:09 <jegs> i understand :) just wanted to do my part by communicating it to the right person
  97 2013-10-20 01:02:24 <sipa> you're very welcome to fix it yourself
  98 2013-10-20 01:02:46 <sipa> (or report an issue about it)
  99 2013-10-20 01:03:22 <jegs> oh right, just clone on github then submit pull request right?
 100 2013-10-20 01:03:34 <sipa> yes
 101 2013-10-20 01:03:41 sustrik has joined
 102 2013-10-20 01:03:46 <sipa> you can even edit just on the github site, i believe
 103 2013-10-20 01:03:50 <sipa> for single-file changes
 104 2013-10-20 01:03:54 <sipa> though i've never tried that
 105 2013-10-20 01:04:11 <jegs> cool shit
 106 2013-10-20 01:07:44 jrmithdobbs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 108 2013-10-20 01:13:47 Luke-Jr has joined
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 112 2013-10-20 01:20:34 Eneerge has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 114 2013-10-20 01:24:23 Eneerge has joined
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 116 2013-10-20 01:24:23 Eneerge has joined
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 118 2013-10-20 01:25:55 brocktice has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 119 2013-10-20 01:26:08 brocktice has joined
 120 2013-10-20 01:27:16 <jegs> is this still true "The accounts code does not scale up to thousands of accounts with tens of thousands of transactions, because by-account (and by-account-by-time) indices are not implemented. So many operations (like computing an account balance) require accessing every wallet transaction."?
 121 2013-10-20 01:27:18 oPen_syLar has joined
 122 2013-10-20 01:27:32 one_zero has joined
 123 2013-10-20 01:30:45 <jegs> who here is working on multi-wallet?
 124 2013-10-20 01:30:54 one_zero has quit (Client Quit)
 125 2013-10-20 01:30:55 * CodeShark  
 126 2013-10-20 01:31:13 one_zero has joined
 127 2013-10-20 01:31:25 <CodeShark> however, I've stopped working on the bitcoind multiwallet and instead have been working on an entirely new separate wallet app
 128 2013-10-20 01:31:40 <Luke-Jr> …
 129 2013-10-20 01:32:34 <CodeShark> I've long been voicing the opinion that wallet apps should not really be part of the verification/relay engine
 130 2013-10-20 01:33:33 <Luke-Jr> nor should the GUI be part of the wallet app :p
 131 2013-10-20 01:33:47 <jegs> yeah it's kind of ackward but i think that was done to get more bitcoin nodes out there right?
 132 2013-10-20 01:34:14 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: there are three basic use cases - GUI, CLI, and API
 133 2013-10-20 01:34:59 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: you forgot TUI
 134 2013-10-20 01:35:01 jgarzik has joined
 135 2013-10-20 01:35:06 <CodeShark> TUI?
 136 2013-10-20 01:35:11 <Luke-Jr> curses
 137 2013-10-20 01:35:18 <CodeShark> oh, lol
 138 2013-10-20 01:35:27 * jgarzik curses.  I am so fucking tired of this stupid bitcointalk spam.
 139 2013-10-20 01:35:27 <Luke-Jr> GUI/TUI/CLI can all be done on top of API
 140 2013-10-20 01:35:34 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 141 2013-10-20 01:35:35 <jgarzik> every time a freaking database gets hacked
 142 2013-10-20 01:36:03 <jgarzik> don't these fools realize multiple mails per day will just decrease the spam effectiveness?
 143 2013-10-20 01:36:22 <CodeShark> I have avoided bitcointalk for a while now - too much noise in there
 144 2013-10-20 01:36:38 <sipa> haven't visited it in months
 145 2013-10-20 01:36:50 <sipa> except when someone explicitly links to it
 146 2013-10-20 01:37:07 sustrik has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 147 2013-10-20 01:37:15 <jgarzik> avoiding doesn't help in this case -- the database got hacked and posted
 148 2013-10-20 01:37:32 <CodeShark> the bitcointalk db?
 149 2013-10-20 01:37:34 <jgarzik> yes
 150 2013-10-20 01:37:39 <sipa> ah, is that were all the weird spam comes from?
 151 2013-10-20 01:37:42 <jgarzik> yes
 152 2013-10-20 01:38:22 <sipa> multiple mails per day... from the same sender?
 153 2013-10-20 01:38:35 <Luke-Jr> I think I get more from MtGox's old hack
 154 2013-10-20 01:38:41 <Luke-Jr> tbh
 155 2013-10-20 01:43:22 magicpig has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 156 2013-10-20 01:44:02 <jgarzik> sipa, same format, different senders
 157 2013-10-20 01:44:28 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Quit: Leaving)
 158 2013-10-20 01:44:47 <jegs> what does backupwallet do that cp doesnt?
 159 2013-10-20 01:45:01 <jgarzik> sipa, some random appeal, sender always has a short name, the text is newly written each time, but each makes a pitch to send to bitcoin address XYZ
 160 2013-10-20 01:45:09 Neozonz has joined
 161 2013-10-20 01:45:15 <CodeShark> jegs: I believe just doing cp while a write operation is taking place can be dangerous
 162 2013-10-20 01:45:17 <jgarzik> a lot of other similarity markers (I used to do email de-spamming... bleh.  greylisting... bleh)
 163 2013-10-20 01:45:40 <jgarzik> jegs, cp works fine, if bitcoind is turned off
 164 2013-10-20 01:45:42 <super3> sipa: the point is not to provide an income for anyone, its more of a tip
 165 2013-10-20 01:46:17 <sipa> super3: that's my point: if it's not an actually useful amount, it works counterproductive
 166 2013-10-20 01:46:25 <jgarzik> Be careful about that guy named super3...  he might be watching you with Google Glass ;p
 167 2013-10-20 01:46:32 <super3> jgarzik: ha ha
 168 2013-10-20 01:46:37 <jegs> i see thanks
 169 2013-10-20 01:46:48 <sipa> though 0.25 BTC may be significant akready
 170 2013-10-20 01:47:02 <jgarzik> jegs, backupwallet is a 'hot backup' or 'runtime backup'
 171 2013-10-20 01:47:03 <super3> jgarzik: i'm too busy using it to watch the exchange prices
 172 2013-10-20 01:47:47 <super3> ive got up 0.15 btc+ worth of tips from helping people out
 173 2013-10-20 01:48:17 <super3> ive got 15 BTC for writing up documentation/tutorials for Bitcoin Armory
 174 2013-10-20 01:48:49 <super3> so to say that people won't give out money for documentation is false
 175 2013-10-20 01:48:58 <sipa> heh
 176 2013-10-20 01:49:02 <sipa> i never said that
 177 2013-10-20 01:49:08 Neozonz is now known as Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Neozonz
 178 2013-10-20 01:49:13 * jgarzik has even posted bounties for people to write docs
 179 2013-10-20 01:49:18 <jgarzik> docs: quite important
 180 2013-10-20 01:49:39 <super3> jgarzik: where are these bounties?
 181 2013-10-20 01:49:54 <sipa> i said that a model where you pay small amounts for tasks works (for some value of small) worse than non-monetary rewards
 182 2013-10-20 01:49:54 <jgarzik> super3, no easy url to give :/  (cont.)
 183 2013-10-20 01:50:17 <sipa> as an incentive for doing the tasks
 184 2013-10-20 01:50:40 <super3> sipa: well break down the tasks into something small that would warrant a reward
 185 2013-10-20 01:51:14 robocoin_ has joined
 186 2013-10-20 01:51:19 <jgarzik> super3, gmaxwell and I have both said we would put up BTC for p2pool (gmax+me) user manual.  "Push Here, Dummy" (PHD) manual that provides rock-simple instructions for setting up each component:  bitcoind, p2pool, and your ASIC hardware (configured to p2pool).
 187 2013-10-20 01:51:30 <sipa> all i'm saying is that it has to be a payment, not a tip-size payment that is promised
 188 2013-10-20 01:51:48 <jgarzik> super3, then, I wanted to bounty more BTC to get that user manual translated into Chinese, maybe Russian too
 189 2013-10-20 01:51:55 <sipa> tips are nice as an encouragement after the fact
 190 2013-10-20 01:52:25 apurplehorse has quit ()
 191 2013-10-20 01:52:30 <sipa> super3: anyway, we're really not talking about the same thing anymore
 192 2013-10-20 01:52:45 <super3> yeah lets move on
 193 2013-10-20 01:52:50 <sipa> i just claimed that "microbitcoin" awards don't work :)
 194 2013-10-20 01:52:52 <jgarzik> super3, the p2pool manual would have to cover all modern ASIC hardware:   for each hardware { p2pool setup instructions }
 195 2013-10-20 01:52:56 <jgarzik> super3, boring and droll, but useful
 196 2013-10-20 01:53:32 <sipa> and the idea of having micropayment rewards for information was already tried by witcoin
 197 2013-10-20 01:54:04 <CodeShark> it's highly inefficient if nothing else
 198 2013-10-20 01:54:09 <jgarzik> Goal: decentralization++ when users try p2pool, rather than one of the Top Five Pools
 199 2013-10-20 01:54:22 <super3> jgarzik: i just found some bounties, is the Chinese translation of Bitcoin wiki still valid?
 200 2013-10-20 01:54:23 <CodeShark> much of this documentation requires someone who has a big picture grasp
 201 2013-10-20 01:54:24 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 202 2013-10-20 01:54:36 <CodeShark> not really possible to get someone like that if you just pay them pennies per paragraph
 203 2013-10-20 01:55:04 <super3> i see it was posted way back in 2010
 204 2013-10-20 01:55:40 <CodeShark> also, the cost of authorizing/managing so many tiny transactions can easily exceed the cost of the work itself
 205 2013-10-20 01:55:56 <sipa> ?
 206 2013-10-20 01:56:07 <sipa> oh, those aren't bitcoin transactions
 207 2013-10-20 01:56:09 <super3> ok well you might have a point
 208 2013-10-20 01:56:10 <CodeShark> well, someone has to review each contribution to see if it is payment-worthy
 209 2013-10-20 01:56:24 <sipa> it was like stackoverflow
 210 2013-10-20 01:56:34 <super3> well ok how if we threw out the micropayments, and just go with pure bounties
 211 2013-10-20 01:56:44 <gmaxwell> technically it was like reddit but with an integrated micropayment system.
 212 2013-10-20 01:56:50 <sipa> where tipping deducts your balance a bit, and being tipped increased it
 213 2013-10-20 01:57:02 <sipa> right
 214 2013-10-20 01:57:02 <gmaxwell> (I think it may have even been based on the reddit codebase)
 215 2013-10-20 01:57:22 <super3> yeah +1 what CodeShark. bitcoin code is kinda dense
 216 2013-10-20 01:57:22 <jgarzik> super3, probably not
 217 2013-10-20 01:57:27 <jgarzik> *poof* baby bedtime
 218 2013-10-20 01:57:40 <gmaxwell> it also cost very tiny amounts to post, and when people upvoted your posts you recieved some back. I thought it was pretty neat generally, but it didn't survive.
 219 2013-10-20 01:58:03 <gmaxwell> (the cost of posting was supposted to be distributed to charities)
 220 2013-10-20 01:58:23 <gmaxwell> (all tiny amounts like hundreths of a cent in USD equal value)
 221 2013-10-20 01:58:27 c0rw1n has joined
 222 2013-10-20 01:58:43 <CodeShark> it's not publishing that costs money - it's reviewing the published content, editing it, compiling into a document with a consistent style, etc...
 223 2013-10-20 01:58:43 <super3> well was its failure a problem with the actual idea, or just lack of people/marketing
 224 2013-10-20 01:58:55 MC1984_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 225 2013-10-20 01:58:57 <gmaxwell> super3: a little of both, I think.
 226 2013-10-20 01:59:19 <gmaxwell> I mean there was no real evidence that adding micropayments to a reddit thing actually made it work any better than reddit does.
 227 2013-10-20 01:59:30 <CodeShark> the WWW made document publication essentially free
 228 2013-10-20 01:59:42 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea, but eyeballs are valuable... thus spam.
 229 2013-10-20 01:59:48 MC1984 has joined
 230 2013-10-20 02:00:06 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: in theory "pay to post, get it paid back if people find your post useful" might help with that, but I think that hasn't been proven one way or another.
 231 2013-10-20 02:00:48 <super3> well i found that you can get a lot of bodies to a website just offering crypto-cash, whether those people can be useful hasn't really be done right yet
 232 2013-10-20 02:00:58 <CodeShark> but ultimately, for much of this stuff, we want to collect the documentation into a work that reads well and/or serves as a consistently-styled reference
 233 2013-10-20 02:01:08 <gmaxwell> part of the problem, of course, is "I have something USEFUL to tell the world, and you want me to PAY to do so? screw you" unless the amounts involved are uselessly trivial.
 234 2013-10-20 02:01:14 MC1984 has quit (Client Quit)
 235 2013-10-20 02:01:16 <super3> although you can say that reddit bitcoin-tip kinda does this to an extent
 236 2013-10-20 02:01:31 <gmaxwell> reddit bitcoin tip is really poorly done.
 237 2013-10-20 02:01:32 <CodeShark> you don't want to be searching through thousands of tiny posts to find things
 238 2013-10-20 02:01:40 <super3> gmaxwell: how so?
 239 2013-10-20 02:02:15 <super3> gmaxwell: it seems to move a decent amount of volume, and has exposes a good number of people to bitcoin
 240 2013-10-20 02:02:17 MC1984 has joined
 241 2013-10-20 02:02:17 <gmaxwell> super3: indivigual transactions for every tip, system costs more in transaction fees than it distributes in tips or darn near so. They also manage to pull random addresses for people from random public postings.
 242 2013-10-20 02:02:33 <gmaxwell> The witcoin design was strictly superior, from a technical perspective.
 243 2013-10-20 02:03:15 <super3> gmaxwell: well id say introducing someone to crypto-currency is more valuable than any txfee
 244 2013-10-20 02:03:45 <sipa> i disagree
 245 2013-10-20 02:03:45 <gmaxwell> super3: not if the introdtion expirence is a bad one because you've recieved an amount so small you can't even uselfully pass it on to other people.
 246 2013-10-20 02:04:28 <sipa> i don't think bitcoin is ready for mass adoption
 247 2013-10-20 02:04:32 <gmaxwell> (same problem those some of those clickfraud-faucet sites have... they pay people dust and then people are irritated when they can't actually spend it)
 248 2013-10-20 02:04:32 <super3> gmaxwell: generalizing, not all the tips are small, and there is a limit on the smallest tip you can send
 249 2013-10-20 02:04:51 <super3> gmaxwell: which is why we are working on trying to solve the microtransaction problem
 250 2013-10-20 02:05:00 <sipa> how?
 251 2013-10-20 02:05:12 <gmaxwell> super3: Whats to solve? witcoin had it solved for that context.
 252 2013-10-20 02:05:20 <super3> Coinbase and Inputs.io can already do
 253 2013-10-20 02:05:26 <super3> "microtransactions"
 254 2013-10-20 02:05:39 <super3> not the real implementation like BitcoinJ, but hey it works
 255 2013-10-20 02:05:52 <gmaxwell> micropayment channels are not applicable to this.
 256 2013-10-20 02:07:12 <super3> Bitcoin is still very new to people, things like Bitcoin-tip are a novelty that help them understand the concept
 257 2013-10-20 02:08:02 <gmaxwell> I don't think they're bad to have, but they way they are done on reddit results in a not very good user expirence. In any case, unexpected post-hoc tips are not the same thing as very tiny bounties.
 258 2013-10-20 02:08:39 <super3> gmaxwell: any suggestions on how they could be done better?
 259 2013-10-20 02:09:03 <gmaxwell> At least we seem to have observed that small bounties appear to be demotivating, they seem to have the opposite of the intended effect. Random unexpected tips don't seem to be harmful at least.
 260 2013-10-20 02:09:11 nvk1 has joined
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 262 2013-10-20 02:09:27 <gmaxwell> super3: by using an actual micropayment system, preferrably one integrated into the site.
 263 2013-10-20 02:09:39 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 264 2013-10-20 02:10:25 <super3> that requires the blessing of the people running the site and a decent codebase
 265 2013-10-20 02:10:35 <super3> sometimes you just have to work with what you got
 266 2013-10-20 02:10:51 <sipa> it could be done externally just as well
 267 2013-10-20 02:11:08 <sipa> it's just a slightly worse user experience if not well integrated
 268 2013-10-20 02:11:25 <gmaxwell> integration does, yes... kinda, though you can use extensions to get integration even externally. Use of a micropayment system doesn't, however.
 269 2013-10-20 02:11:49 <super3> id venture to say that Bitcoin doesn't really have the greatest user experience
 270 2013-10-20 02:11:55 <super3> in general
 271 2013-10-20 02:12:02 <sipa> it certainly doesn't
 272 2013-10-20 02:12:24 <gmaxwell> And trying to use it for micropayments is somewhat doomed to have the worst of that expirence.
 273 2013-10-20 02:12:27 nvk1 has joined
 274 2013-10-20 02:12:59 <super3> i mean with time we will get there, but that time is not now
 275 2013-10-20 02:13:02 <gmaxwell> Bitcointipbot or whatever could be replaced with a micropayment system.  Support for displaying balances and such for that system could be added to reddit enhancement suite or a similar tipbot only extension.
 276 2013-10-20 02:13:22 <gmaxwell> super3: or maybe not, if people keep using it poorly and expecting someone else to solve the problems maybe we won't get there.
 277 2013-10-20 02:14:19 <super3> im working on a system to better integrate the micropayment hacks, and i'm sure many people are doing the same thing
 278 2013-10-20 02:14:44 <gmaxwell> (esp since people are now frequently building services which are accutely hostile to viable micropayment systems existing. :( )
 279 2013-10-20 02:15:02 <super3> i mean the micropayments problem has been around for a while, even before Bitcoin
 280 2013-10-20 02:15:25 <gmaxwell> super3: sorry, I've seen a lot of people saying this stuff. But frankly none of them have produced a solution even as good as the witcoin one.
 281 2013-10-20 02:15:57 <gmaxwell> super3: bitcoin potentially cuts through a lot of the problems that prevent solving it otherwise. E.g. witcoin didn't exist prior to bitcoin.
 282 2013-10-20 02:16:45 <super3> yes so now that we have a good foundation we can go from there, which im optimistic about
 283 2013-10-20 02:16:49 magicpig has joined
 284 2013-10-20 02:17:19 nvk1 has left ()
 285 2013-10-20 02:17:28 <super3> but its going to take a bit of time for people to work through it. the people that can solve these problems are just finding out about Bitcoin now
 286 2013-10-20 02:17:54 andytoshi has joined
 287 2013-10-20 02:17:54 <super3> so they still have to learn the core protocol, APIs, read the paper, before they can go off and do all this cool stuff
 288 2013-10-20 02:17:54 execut3 has joined
 289 2013-10-20 02:18:10 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 290 2013-10-20 02:18:43 <gmaxwell> No they don't.
 291 2013-10-20 02:19:12 <super3> gmaxwell: ?
 292 2013-10-20 02:19:12 <gmaxwell> I mean, certantly better that they do. But not understanding bitcoin at all hasn't even stopped people from trying to write implementations of it. :P
 293 2013-10-20 02:19:19 <jegs> how do rejections work? like what does the JSON RPC API return?
 294 2013-10-20 02:19:47 <super3> jegs: like error messages?
 295 2013-10-20 02:19:47 <jegs> i'm not knowledge enough to craft an invalid transaction so i can't test this myself :p
 296 2013-10-20 02:19:52 <jegs> yeah
 297 2013-10-20 02:19:54 <jegs> error messages
 298 2013-10-20 02:19:59 <jegs> or a sort of 'transaction status'
 299 2013-10-20 02:20:10 <gmaxwell> And Bitcoin has existed for over 5 years now.  We had viable microtransaction implementations in 2010. But people seem to reinvent the wheel or just not bother to use things pretty often.
 300 2013-10-20 02:20:28 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 301 2013-10-20 02:21:48 nvk1 has joined
 302 2013-10-20 02:21:53 <super3> gmaxwell: but a majority of people didn't know it existed till this year, which i find quite sad for anyone in CS
 303 2013-10-20 02:22:15 <gmaxwell> the majority of people in the world still don't know bitcoin exists and may never know it exists. :)
 304 2013-10-20 02:23:07 <super3> gmaxwell: as long as our growth rate stays like this most of them will eventually
 305 2013-10-20 02:24:14 deepc0re has quit (Quit: deepc0re)
 306 2013-10-20 02:24:38 <super3> jegs: trying sending some messed up transactions on the test-net
 307 2013-10-20 02:25:15 <super3> jegs: might be worth playing with the coinbase or blockchain.info apis.
 308 2013-10-20 02:25:33 <gmaxwell> jegs: rejections for what? it's easy to make a bad json rpc call.
 309 2013-10-20 02:25:44 ambimorph has joined
 310 2013-10-20 02:25:56 <gmaxwell> $bitcoind  getrawtransaction  jiffiepop
 311 2013-10-20 02:26:04 <super3> heh
 312 2013-10-20 02:26:48 <jegs> not like that
 313 2013-10-20 02:27:01 <jegs> i mean someone trying to pay from an account with no money or something like that
 314 2013-10-20 02:27:07 <jegs> the standard clients aren't going to let you do that
 315 2013-10-20 02:27:21 <jegs> so testing this would be time consuming and difficult for me
 316 2013-10-20 02:28:20 <super3> jegs: testing is always time consuming and difficult
 317 2013-10-20 02:28:26 <super3> this is why you write the best unit tests you can
 318 2013-10-20 02:28:43 <super3> http://json-rpc.org/wiki/specification might help a little bit
 319 2013-10-20 02:28:50 <jegs> no i mean i would have to learn a lot of stuff in order to craft a raw transaction and have it broadcast
 320 2013-10-20 02:29:11 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 321 2013-10-20 02:29:17 <jegs> thanks i know the info is there just "ain't got no time for that shit" right now lol
 322 2013-10-20 02:29:29 <gmaxwell> jegs: $ bitcoind sendfrom "random" 1GMaxweLLbo8mdXvnnC19Wt2wigiYUKgEB 10000000  < easy to test, unless you actually have 10 million coins, in which case you can easily hire me to help you more. :)
 323 2013-10-20 02:29:30 <super3> jegs: maybe i could help more if i had actually help you
 324 2013-10-20 02:29:35 <CodeShark> bitcoind will broadcast it for you
 325 2013-10-20 02:29:47 <CodeShark> sendrawtransaction
 326 2013-10-20 02:29:48 <super3> oops
 327 2013-10-20 02:29:48 <gmaxwell> jegs: oh if you want to test a bad raw transaction, just manually twiddle the amount in the hex.
 328 2013-10-20 02:30:12 <CodeShark> and decoderawtransaction is useful for debugging, testing as well
 329 2013-10-20 02:30:15 one_zero_ has joined
 330 2013-10-20 02:30:42 <CodeShark> although the error messages could be a little more granular for a better tool
 331 2013-10-20 02:31:07 <jegs> ok i'm sure i'll get to doing that at some point but for my immediate purposes... bad transactions simply aren't included in any 'block' so you can't lookup a transaction to see if it has a 'rejected' status right?
 332 2013-10-20 02:31:10 <gmaxwell> $ bitcoind  createrawtransaction '[{"txid":"9afba9a11cd3a315b4cf8cafa794d6f5f9cec4088202c8cf124963b8c0c6bccb","vout":0}]' '{"1GMaxweLLbo8mdXvnnC19Wt2wigiYUKgEB":1000000}'
 333 2013-10-20 02:31:18 <gmaxwell> ^ tada, invalid raw transaction.
 334 2013-10-20 02:31:26 <jegs> ok i'll put that in
 335 2013-10-20 02:31:31 <gmaxwell> jegs: there is no such thing as "rejected" status.
 336 2013-10-20 02:31:31 one_zero has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 337 2013-10-20 02:31:49 <gmaxwell> bad transactions are just instantly rejected and thereafter regarded as if the node had never heard of them.
 338 2013-10-20 02:31:57 <CodeShark> if you look at the debug.log for bitcoind you can see whether it rejects your transactions when you sendrawtransaction
 339 2013-10-20 02:32:03 <jegs> ok great you are confirming my understanding then
 340 2013-10-20 02:32:21 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you also get a return result from the sendrawtransaction command, but it's usually not very informative.
 341 2013-10-20 02:32:43 <CodeShark> for some of the stuff I've done I've resorted to inserting granular tracers into bitcoind :p
 342 2013-10-20 02:32:44 <super3> gmaxwell: looking at your proof of storage post, had an idea along those lines, but your concept is way better
 343 2013-10-20 02:33:23 fanquake has joined
 344 2013-10-20 02:34:12 <sipa> super3: depending on what you mean by accounts, bitcoin *will* let you spend more from an account than it has (though the wallet needs to have enough funds)
 345 2013-10-20 02:34:30 <CodeShark> the term "account" in its current use in bitcoind's wallet is a complete misnomer, IMHO
 346 2013-10-20 02:34:38 <CodeShark> it should just be considered a label
 347 2013-10-20 02:34:47 <CodeShark> transactions/addresses can be labeled
 348 2013-10-20 02:34:51 <CodeShark> that's all
 349 2013-10-20 02:35:19 <sipa> i guess it would be less confusing if label and accounts weren't confounded
 350 2013-10-20 02:35:29 <CodeShark> the wallet still considers all the coins it has to be part of the same pile
 351 2013-10-20 02:36:14 <sipa> but the accounts system as a whole is rarely useful
 352 2013-10-20 02:36:25 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, no it's an accounting account
 353 2013-10-20 02:36:27 <phantomcircuit> it's not really labels
 354 2013-10-20 02:36:29 <phantomcircuit> but it's not a very useful construct for anything serious since it's impossible to maintain backups
 355 2013-10-20 02:36:52 <CodeShark> an accounting account would not let you have negative balances
 356 2013-10-20 02:36:58 <CodeShark> you'd have to explicitly transfer funds
 357 2013-10-20 02:37:19 <sipa> initially, accounts couldn't go negative
 358 2013-10-20 02:37:33 <sipa> but that was impossible to actually enforce consistently
 359 2013-10-20 02:37:48 <sipa> as transactions can get reverted
 360 2013-10-20 02:37:50 <gmaxwell> super3: there were a lot of ideas along those lines that came first, but that one is both simple and should actually achieve the stated goal. (I dunno why it took so long to come up with…)
 361 2013-10-20 02:38:08 <CodeShark> the way bitcoind's wallet is typically used, the "accounting system" really doesn't make sense - it's really a single account, in which you can label transactions to indicate from whom they were received
 362 2013-10-20 02:38:23 <sipa> that's not the account system
 363 2013-10-20 02:38:39 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, accounting accounts most certainly can go negative
 364 2013-10-20 02:39:05 <sipa> the account system lets you mark addresses as "transactions to this credit account X"
 365 2013-10-20 02:39:12 <phantomcircuit> actually the entire wallet can have a negative balance if you set the confirmation watermark to 0
 366 2013-10-20 02:39:30 <sipa> and it lets you mark outgoing transactions as "deduct account Y"
 367 2013-10-20 02:39:55 <sipa> the fact that these to-account tags on addresses overlap with labels is just confusimg
 368 2013-10-20 02:39:55 <CodeShark> in any case, the bitcoind wallet isn't designed to manage serious funds - it's only a single end-user personal wallet
 369 2013-10-20 02:40:15 <CodeShark> and in most such uses, what you care about is who sent you what and to whom did you send what
 370 2013-10-20 02:40:18 <CodeShark> and it's a single account
 371 2013-10-20 02:40:30 Subo1977 has joined
 372 2013-10-20 02:40:37 <CodeShark> if you truly want to manage multiple "accounts" using bitcoind you need multiple wallets
 373 2013-10-20 02:40:48 <sipa> well the account system was designed for accounts on a shared wallet
 374 2013-10-20 02:41:08 <super3> gmaxwell: how best could this be used to implement a distributed storage system?
 375 2013-10-20 02:41:09 <sipa> if you want multiple wallets, you want multiple wallets - not accounts in the same wallet
 376 2013-10-20 02:41:21 grau has joined
 377 2013-10-20 02:41:29 <sipa> and yes, for many uses multiple wallets is the right approach
 378 2013-10-20 02:41:42 <sipa> but not all
 379 2013-10-20 02:41:42 <CodeShark> sipa: in what I've been working on, an account consists of a script chain along with a particular signing policy
 380 2013-10-20 02:42:20 <sipa> shared wallets make sense, they give you lower fees for example than keeping the coins separate
 381 2013-10-20 02:42:26 <CodeShark> the signing is entirely separate, we have a separate abstraction called a "keychain"
 382 2013-10-20 02:42:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: aren't you asleep?
 383 2013-10-20 02:42:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: i believe i am
 384 2013-10-20 02:42:46 <gmaxwell> Okay. Just checking.
 385 2013-10-20 02:43:20 <CodeShark> the account specifies a set of scripts to observe/create new transactions for along with a signing policy which requires specific keychains for signing
 386 2013-10-20 02:43:29 <MC1984> am i right in thinking that this accounts system is akin to email folders vs gmails 'labels'
 387 2013-10-20 02:43:46 <sipa> CodeShark: ok, your account is what we call a wallet, i guess
 388 2013-10-20 02:44:15 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 389 2013-10-20 02:44:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: semi-shared wallets are perhaps a useful context. E.g. being able to select multiple wallets when making a transaction "You can spend from any, and potentially all of these"
 390 2013-10-20 02:44:45 <super3> gmaxwell: also will this tree only have to be generate once?
 391 2013-10-20 02:44:48 <gmaxwell> s/context/concept/
 392 2013-10-20 02:45:00 <CodeShark> the term "wallet" is not really used in typical banking, though
 393 2013-10-20 02:45:09 <gmaxwell> super3: the idea is to be once per-peer which you are proving storage to.
 394 2013-10-20 02:45:24 <CodeShark> and in the case of bitcoind, the term "wallet" confuses accounts, signing policies, and keychains
 395 2013-10-20 02:45:34 <sipa> CodeShark: s/wallet/bank/
 396 2013-10-20 02:45:55 <sipa> your bank doesn't actually keep your bills and coins separately
 397 2013-10-20 02:46:05 <sipa> it only remembers how many you own
 398 2013-10-20 02:46:12 <sipa> that's an account
 399 2013-10-20 02:46:21 <super3> gmaxwell: got it my main concern is that if you are storing a large number of files this way it might be a bit i/o intensive
 400 2013-10-20 02:46:30 <sipa> i think it maps very closely to bitcoind's accounts :)
 401 2013-10-20 02:46:34 <gmaxwell> yea, the idea of something that keeps coins seperate is non-existant in finance, it's only in bitcoin that people keep trying to impose it.
 402 2013-10-20 02:46:45 <gmaxwell> super3: this isn't for storing files.
 403 2013-10-20 02:47:11 <CodeShark> sipa, each bank account can have particular policies regarding its access
 404 2013-10-20 02:47:21 <gmaxwell> super3: it's for proving that you're (temporarily) using disk space to prove that you're not filling up a network's capacity.
 405 2013-10-20 02:47:47 <sipa> CodeShark: sure, and arguably we'd need that in accounts
 406 2013-10-20 02:47:59 <CodeShark> in the case of bitcoin, if you want to have truly separate policies per account you can't really just lump in all the utxos
 407 2013-10-20 02:48:22 <sipa> CodeShark: to continue the analogy, the bank owns all coins
 408 2013-10-20 02:48:24 <CodeShark> although I do like gmaxwell's suggestion of policies that do allow it
 409 2013-10-20 02:48:30 <super3> gmaxwell: i'm aware, trying to apply it to the storing files problem though
 410 2013-10-20 02:48:36 <sipa> a wallet owns all coins
 411 2013-10-20 02:48:48 <CodeShark> no, keychains own coins
 412 2013-10-20 02:48:51 <sipa> the accounts are fpr different customers of the bank
 413 2013-10-20 02:48:57 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 414 2013-10-20 02:49:00 <sipa> well call it as you like
 415 2013-10-20 02:49:08 <CodeShark> coin ownership is established by who owns the private keys, not who owns the list of scripts to watch
 416 2013-10-20 02:49:21 <sipa> i own my coins on mtgox
 417 2013-10-20 02:49:37 <sipa> though they have the keys
 418 2013-10-20 02:49:41 <CodeShark> I'm talking at the cryptographic level
 419 2013-10-20 02:49:52 <CodeShark> if you truly want to secure your own coins rather than trusting someone else
 420 2013-10-20 02:50:01 <sipa> yes, and accounts have nothing to do with that level
 421 2013-10-20 02:50:25 <sipa> which isn't always the abstraction you want
 422 2013-10-20 02:50:26 <CodeShark> well, they do if you want to retain separate policies on them
 423 2013-10-20 02:50:34 <super3> although i like the idea of a proof-of-storage coin
 424 2013-10-20 02:50:35 <CodeShark> otherwise you still have to trust someone with all the keys
 425 2013-10-20 02:50:38 <sipa> but that doesn't make it a useless one
 426 2013-10-20 02:50:47 <sipa> of course
 427 2013-10-20 02:50:59 <sipa> that's exactly what accounts are designed for
 428 2013-10-20 02:51:09 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I'm sad to hear that you've stopped working on multiwallet in bitcoin-qt. Finishing that would would be a real benefit to a lot of people in the short term.
 429 2013-10-20 02:51:16 <CodeShark> one of the killer features of bitcoin is the ability to manage security at the cryptographic level rather than just trusting some authentication server somewhere
 430 2013-10-20 02:51:23 <sipa> maintaining balances for different identities within one set of coims
 431 2013-10-20 02:51:50 <sipa> CodeShark: sure, which is why muktiwallet would be awesome
 432 2013-10-20 02:52:05 <gmaxwell> (and not just the users, we seem to be having increasing problem with people not running full nodes. A lack of multiwallet support is one of the causes, and thats going to get a lot worse when trezor comes out and there is just no way to use one w/ bitcoin-qt)
 433 2013-10-20 02:52:22 magicpig has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 434 2013-10-20 02:52:41 <super3> gmaxwell: i think the main problem is just sync time
 435 2013-10-20 02:53:03 <super3> people don't want to wait 2 days to use their client
 436 2013-10-20 02:53:07 <gmaxwell> super3: this isn't an issue for _existing_ users.
 437 2013-10-20 02:53:39 <sipa> CodeShark: just before you misunderstand, i'm not at all disagreeing with you about the possibilities of bitcoin, or what wallet priorities should be, or what abstractions to create
 438 2013-10-20 02:54:02 <sipa> i'm only commenting on "accounts are silly, they should be X"
 439 2013-10-20 02:54:03 <super3> gmaxwell: sure it is.
 440 2013-10-20 02:54:24 <gmaxwell> super3: no it's not. It's a one time cost at install.
 441 2013-10-20 02:54:44 <gmaxwell> (not to say that it doesn't need to be improved, and sipa has made tremendous progress there)
 442 2013-10-20 02:54:50 <sipa> i think accounts are a halfway implemented feature, which is rarely what people wamt
 443 2013-10-20 02:55:03 <sipa> but they offer exactly the abstraction they were intended to
 444 2013-10-20 02:55:06 <CodeShark> I guess it's really pointless to argue over the bitcoind wallet account system - there are so many other aspects of it that are far worse :p
 445 2013-10-20 02:55:56 <sipa> well, working on improving thimgs :)
 446 2013-10-20 02:56:11 <CodeShark> indeed we are :)
 447 2013-10-20 02:56:39 <super3> gmaxwell: for me its fine, but i don't recommend that new users run a full node because of it
 448 2013-10-20 02:56:54 <super3> i agree that multiwallets should support it though
 449 2013-10-20 02:57:05 <super3> would solve the problem with the least about of effort
 450 2013-10-20 02:57:16 <gmaxwell> super3: not sure how you're disagreeing with my 'isn't an issue for _existing_ users'.
 451 2013-10-20 02:57:17 <sipa> poke CodeShark!
 452 2013-10-20 02:57:40 <CodeShark> in the future I foresee two types of users: typical, causal users who will most likely use SPV and corporate users who will likely run multiple verification/relay nodes as part of their IT infrastructure
 453 2013-10-20 02:57:48 <MC1984> i just read how sipas headersfirst + libsecp got a sync down to 45 mins
 454 2013-10-20 02:57:52 <MC1984> thats should help
 455 2013-10-20 02:58:11 <super3> i have multiple computers, i wanted to do some dev work but had to stop because i had to wait for the blockchain to sync
 456 2013-10-20 02:58:20 <sipa> MC1984: on a very good network connection, on a 12-core machine
 457 2013-10-20 02:58:24 <gmaxwell> MC1984: well take care, the comparison there isn't two days.
 458 2013-10-20 02:58:33 <CodeShark> I always keep at least two servers synched so I can test software from anywhere at any given time
 459 2013-10-20 02:58:47 <gmaxwell> super3: Why?
 460 2013-10-20 02:59:03 <CodeShark> but I'm certainly not a "typical, casual user"
 461 2013-10-20 02:59:48 <super3> can't really send/in out coins if your wallet is still syncing with 2012 blocks
 462 2013-10-20 03:00:08 <sipa> there are a few speedup tricks
 463 2013-10-20 03:00:15 <sipa> like settimg high -dbcache
 464 2013-10-20 03:00:21 <gmaxwell> super3: you can if your wallet has seen the coins. But why was your wallet syncing with 2012 blocks?
 465 2013-10-20 03:00:26 <sipa> or -connect'img to a songle fast node
 466 2013-10-20 03:00:37 <sipa> single
 467 2013-10-20 03:00:58 gingpark has joined
 468 2013-10-20 03:01:02 <gmaxwell> Songle nodes are more harmonious.
 469 2013-10-20 03:01:08 <phantomcircuit> lol
 470 2013-10-20 03:02:15 <sipa> is 'songle' a word?
 471 2013-10-20 03:02:21 <gmaxwell> super3: that shouldn't have been the case unless you are talking about a new node, or at least one that had not been run since 2012.
 472 2013-10-20 03:02:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: sounds like something to do with singing.
 473 2013-10-20 03:02:40 <sipa> right
 474 2013-10-20 03:02:56 <super3> well yes i agree, but those are just workarounds the problem still exists
 475 2013-10-20 03:02:57 <sipa> but then, single too :p
 476 2013-10-20 03:03:12 <super3> people arn't running full nodes because they don't want to bother with a full sync
 477 2013-10-20 03:03:14 <sipa> super3: you haven't answered
 478 2013-10-20 03:03:40 <phantomcircuit> sipa, you have headers first working right?
 479 2013-10-20 03:03:49 <super3> users including myself are lazy
 480 2013-10-20 03:03:51 <sipa> phantomcircuit: somewhat, but i'm redoing it
 481 2013-10-20 03:04:08 <gmaxwell> super3: okay, you're just talking in circles now. I give up.
 482 2013-10-20 03:04:19 <sipa> super3: you still haven't answered why you were syncing with 2012 blocks
 483 2013-10-20 03:04:37 yubrew has joined
 484 2013-10-20 03:04:48 <sipa> was it a new node?
 485 2013-10-20 03:04:51 <super3> yeah
 486 2013-10-20 03:05:10 <sipa> you can copy/sync from another
 487 2013-10-20 03:05:18 <sipa> but yeah, it's not exact
 488 2013-10-20 03:05:26 <super3> seems to go through the early blocks pretty quickly
 489 2013-10-20 03:05:27 <sipa> ly user friendly
 490 2013-10-20 03:05:42 <super3> maybe thats something that we can work on
 491 2013-10-20 03:05:55 <gmaxwell> Again, this does nothing to counter the position I stated that the initial synctime is a one time burden which doesn't adversely impact most _existing_ users. E.g. it doesn't explain people who were using bitcoin-qt who switch off it.
 492 2013-10-20 03:06:28 <gmaxwell> Which is fine, I don't care if you agree with that or not. I just wanted to make sure you hadn't run into a problem that I was unaware of.
 493 2013-10-20 03:06:30 <super3> ah for that question there is no real incentive to keep it on
 494 2013-10-20 03:06:56 <gmaxwell> super3: you don't have to keep it on, it catches up quite quickly unless you've left it without running it for months.
 495 2013-10-20 03:07:05 <sipa> well i have heard people complaining about how slow it syncs even after just a few days/weeks
 496 2013-10-20 03:07:26 <sipa> it may be fast, but it's not instant either
 497 2013-10-20 03:07:50 yubrew_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 498 2013-10-20 03:07:59 <super3> usually its pretty bearable if its only a few days
 499 2013-10-20 03:08:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: So far the complaints I'd seen about that were actually about the time when its displaying the splash screen.
 500 2013-10-20 03:08:19 <sipa> ha!
 501 2013-10-20 03:08:27 <super3> plus as long as there is coins in your wallet, you can probably still broadcast
 502 2013-10-20 03:08:39 <sipa> just the block chain loading, can be really slow :)
 503 2013-10-20 03:09:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: I've seen some users where it was taking a minute. Some kind of broken storage system. :(
 504 2013-10-20 03:09:24 <sipa> yeah
 505 2013-10-20 03:09:25 <super3> if people aren't using a program they turn it off, same thing for bitcoin. which would explain why they switch off qt.
 506 2013-10-20 03:09:29 <gmaxwell> (as in, I got them to log timestamps because I wouldn't believe them!)
 507 2013-10-20 03:09:44 <sipa> super3: oh, we're not talking about turning it off
 508 2013-10-20 03:09:59 <sipa> we're talking about stoppimg to use it, amd move to another program
 509 2013-10-20 03:10:17 <super3> ah i thought with the context you ment turn the program off
 510 2013-10-20 03:10:30 <CodeShark> ideally, the sync would be part of a service which can always run in the background and can provide multiple levels of security, starting with headers-only sync and working its way up to full validation
 511 2013-10-20 03:10:48 <sipa> CodeShark: that'd be awesome
 512 2013-10-20 03:10:49 <super3> CodeShark: that would be nice
 513 2013-10-20 03:11:07 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: s'not a new idea of course. Got a patch? :P
 514 2013-10-20 03:11:16 ambimorph has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 515 2013-10-20 03:12:19 <phantomcircuit> i should probably write a pull request to remove that 100ms sleep
 516 2013-10-20 03:12:21 <phantomcircuit> but effort
 517 2013-10-20 03:12:41 <sipa> yes, you should!
 518 2013-10-20 03:12:46 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: we'll get even more very angry complaints about people who are unhappy that their node uses all their bandwidth. :P
 519 2013-10-20 03:12:47 Muis_ has joined
 520 2013-10-20 03:12:51 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yes but effort
 521 2013-10-20 03:13:18 <MC1984> lol people install bitcoin
 522 2013-10-20 03:13:25 <MC1984> "grrr why is it doing stuff!"
 523 2013-10-20 03:13:26 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
 524 2013-10-20 03:13:35 <super3> MC1984: users can be like that sometimes...
 525 2013-10-20 03:13:39 <gmaxwell> it should probably be removed, but also replaced with a ratelimiter that makes your node more latent if its gone over the ratelimiter. but ...
 526 2013-10-20 03:13:46 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, for the most part the upnp client doesn't work right
 527 2013-10-20 03:13:48 <gmaxwell> MC1984: "something is wrong, it's using my cpu!"
 528 2013-10-20 03:13:50 <phantomcircuit> so not a big deal for most people
 529 2013-10-20 03:13:51 <phantomcircuit> :/
 530 2013-10-20 03:14:01 <MC1984> ive literally heard that many times
 531 2013-10-20 03:14:04 yubrew_ has joined
 532 2013-10-20 03:14:08 <sipa> "it's in an infinite loop!"
 533 2013-10-20 03:14:11 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: hm? it works surprisingly well.
 534 2013-10-20 03:14:15 olalonde has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 535 2013-10-20 03:14:28 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: certantly well enough that we already get complaints! :P
 536 2013-10-20 03:14:29 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it randomly doesn't work with some routers
 537 2013-10-20 03:14:30 <MC1984> it could do a better job of signalling exactly wht its doing
 538 2013-10-20 03:14:34 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea sure.
 539 2013-10-20 03:14:47 <phantomcircuit> like it doesn't work with my stupid comcast router
 540 2013-10-20 03:14:53 <MC1984> people seem to understand download speed and bandwidth pretty well after ten year of training from torrents
 541 2013-10-20 03:15:00 olalonde has joined
 542 2013-10-20 03:15:03 <phantomcircuit> which annoyingly comcast reconfigures by flashing the firmware
 543 2013-10-20 03:15:05 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it does show you its syncing, but somehow people have been taught that cpu usage == broken application because computers are so fast people are basically never waiting on the cpu.
 544 2013-10-20 03:15:07 <MC1984> but they mix that up with processing the blocks, so they think its just downloading slow
 545 2013-10-20 03:15:11 <phantomcircuit> something they seem to be doing every like 12 hours
 546 2013-10-20 03:15:13 <gmaxwell> (except when their application is broken)
 547 2013-10-20 03:15:34 <MC1984> thats a good point
 548 2013-10-20 03:15:58 <MC1984> the progress bar thing could say "downloading & processing blocks"
 549 2013-10-20 03:16:01 Muis has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 550 2013-10-20 03:16:04 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, possibly the indicator should be changed to say somethign like "verifying and validating blockchian"
 551 2013-10-20 03:16:13 <phantomcircuit> jynx
 552 2013-10-20 03:16:14 <phantomcircuit> sort of
 553 2013-10-20 03:16:19 <gmaxwell> maybe if you make some kind of snazzy matrix opengl animation. "Hyperspaxxiling the himmersnizzle. (some cpu power required)"
 554 2013-10-20 03:16:26 <sipa> MC1984: well, often it IS the downloading part that is slow
 555 2013-10-20 03:16:48 <MC1984> gmaxwell remember seti@home? That program traded on such things
 556 2013-10-20 03:16:56 <gmaxwell> I know.
 557 2013-10-20 03:17:02 <sipa> we need block chain statistics
 558 2013-10-20 03:17:04 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 559 2013-10-20 03:17:11 <sipa> animated
 560 2013-10-20 03:17:19 <MC1984> i worked out i could do WUs 30% faster with the CLI version one day lol
 561 2013-10-20 03:17:20 <sipa> in 5D
 562 2013-10-20 03:17:20 <gmaxwell> If the bitcoin community were smart it would be funding people to create such things, instead of funding things like mastercoin, but oh well.
 563 2013-10-20 03:17:33 <gmaxwell> sipa: "the fifth dimension is smell"
 564 2013-10-20 03:17:34 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 565 2013-10-20 03:17:36 <MC1984> 5000 units on a pentium 266
 566 2013-10-20 03:17:45 <super3> what are we going to do? add pong to the blockchain sync screen?
 567 2013-10-20 03:17:46 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
 568 2013-10-20 03:17:49 TheSeven has joined
 569 2013-10-20 03:17:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: smell of burnt cpu fans?
 570 2013-10-20 03:18:13 <sipa> super3: awesome ide
 571 2013-10-20 03:18:15 <MC1984> how could you visualise a verifying chain operation
 572 2013-10-20 03:18:15 <gmaxwell> super3: well in fact I was thinking about hdwallets and the importance of having really good entropy for the seed, and thinking that perhaps we do need pong in the wallet software.
 573 2013-10-20 03:18:18 <sipa> *idea
 574 2013-10-20 03:18:22 <gmaxwell> (as a way to extract entropy from the user)
 575 2013-10-20 03:18:34 <sipa> ha
 576 2013-10-20 03:18:35 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 577 2013-10-20 03:18:56 <MC1984> all i can think of is something like the loading screen from halo 3. mite b cool
 578 2013-10-20 03:19:16 <gmaxwell> "draw a picture of a cat"
 579 2013-10-20 03:19:23 * sipa .sleep();
 580 2013-10-20 03:19:44 <MC1984> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daLvkZqsVR8 building_blockchain.mp4
 581 2013-10-20 03:20:11 <super3> MC1984: oh that would be legit
 582 2013-10-20 03:20:32 <super3> gmaxwell: maybe we don't actually need to solve the problem, we just need to make it look cool
 583 2013-10-20 03:20:49 <gmaxwell> MC1984: is halo a game about a ringworld??
 584 2013-10-20 03:20:50 <super3> as long as people are happy right?
 585 2013-10-20 03:21:03 <MC1984> yes. the ringworld is called halo
 586 2013-10-20 03:21:10 <MC1984> its a superweapon
 587 2013-10-20 03:21:58 <MC1984> well not a niven ringworld, more like a banks orbital
 588 2013-10-20 03:23:48 Ramokk has joined
 589 2013-10-20 03:25:21 owowo has joined
 590 2013-10-20 03:26:46 <phantomcircuit> interesting
 591 2013-10-20 03:27:16 <theorbtwo> Hm.  I was under the impression that it was a niven ringworld, right down to the solar magnetic field manipulation weapon (see Ringworld Engineers).
 592 2013-10-20 03:27:17 owowo has quit (Client Quit)
 593 2013-10-20 03:27:25 <phantomcircuit> prior to the checkpoint im pretty sure the 100ms sleep in the networking code is the vast majority of the time to sync
 594 2013-10-20 03:27:48 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, but headers first also eliminates that largely.
 595 2013-10-20 03:28:12 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah i can see that
 596 2013-10-20 03:28:21 <gmaxwell> (because it pulls from multiple peers) at least once it gets the the height where head doesn't pull more than a dozen blocks at a time.
 597 2013-10-20 03:28:28 <MC1984> the weapon is a superluminal neutron bomb as far as ive worked out, from its effect and stated goal. The ring is 10000km diamter from memory. so not a niven ring
 598 2013-10-20 03:28:58 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the current logic works fine if it takes > 100ms to process the 500 block group
 599 2013-10-20 03:29:01 <phantomcircuit> whic it used to
 600 2013-10-20 03:29:01 <gmaxwell> it should still be removed, it's probably the cause of a lot of the total orphaning in the network now. But I do worry about further saturing poor users on residential broadband.
 601 2013-10-20 03:29:04 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 602 2013-10-20 03:29:10 <phantomcircuit> but doesn't on recent hw
 603 2013-10-20 03:29:17 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: does it? I thought the delay was an explicit sleep.
 604 2013-10-20 03:29:31 Diapolis has joined
 605 2013-10-20 03:29:41 <gmaxwell> oh I see, it's a sleep after it processes the data, delaying the next data that it processes.
 606 2013-10-20 03:29:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc it's pulling before the full 500 block group is processed
 607 2013-10-20 03:29:54 <phantomcircuit> so it's happening in parallel to the sleep
 608 2013-10-20 03:30:49 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 609 2013-10-20 03:31:21 <MC1984> theres a 100ms sleep cycle in the block donwloading code?
 610 2013-10-20 03:31:27 <gmaxwell> fair enough, it still produces delays for new blocks though.. because on average it's only 50ms into that sleep when the new block message comes in, and it won't notice it until the sleep ends.
 611 2013-10-20 03:31:41 McKay has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 612 2013-10-20 03:32:16 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, there's a 100ms sleep in the networking code
 613 2013-10-20 03:32:21 <gmaxwell> MC1984: in the responding to any message on the network code.
 614 2013-10-20 03:32:25 jtimon has joined
 615 2013-10-20 03:32:33 <MC1984> guys wtf
 616 2013-10-20 03:32:37 <phantomcircuit> it's to avoid an infinite loop
 617 2013-10-20 03:33:18 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's not a huge wtf. It's mostly harmless. Would be prefferable to event drive it though. But it does have the side benefit of not allowing bitcoin to totally slam your network connection.
 618 2013-10-20 03:33:34 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 619 2013-10-20 03:33:42 <MC1984> seems a hacky way to rate limit
 620 2013-10-20 03:33:48 <CodeShark> that's not really a good solution if the problem it addresses is not allowing bitcoin to slam your bitcoin connection :p
 621 2013-10-20 03:33:58 <CodeShark> err, network connection
 622 2013-10-20 03:34:01 <MC1984> like putting a ping localhost in a batch file lol
 623 2013-10-20 03:34:20 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the send buffer is 1MB right?
 624 2013-10-20 03:34:49 <gmaxwell> I'm not saying it's good. I said it should go. But it's not horiffic.
 625 2013-10-20 03:35:21 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: basically it prevents infinite looping on the select without using any blocking IO that could get wedged on single failed peers.
 626 2013-10-20 03:35:33 <CodeShark> we really should move to async i/o
 627 2013-10-20 03:35:41 <gmaxwell> it's a ghetto replacement for real event management. It also acts as a rate limiter as a side effect.
 628 2013-10-20 03:36:13 <gmaxwell> boost's async io stuff appears to be buggy garbage, sorry to say. I've been really unimpressed with it in the rpc code.
 629 2013-10-20 03:36:26 <gmaxwell> it's also very difficult to debug.
 630 2013-10-20 03:36:27 <CodeShark> boost's async io stuff has worked pretty well for me
 631 2013-10-20 03:36:54 <CodeShark> and bitcoind doesn't really use boost::asio correctly
 632 2013-10-20 03:37:14 <gmaxwell> (and stepping through it with GDB will make you want to carve your eyes out, it does crap like hitting the heap allocator tens of thousands of times for basically everything it does.)
 633 2013-10-20 03:37:54 <CodeShark> async code is inherently more complicated and more difficult to debug, that's very true - but it's the only real way to manage multiple network connections with any sort of scalability
 634 2013-10-20 03:38:04 shesek has joined
 635 2013-10-20 03:38:26 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: funny, thousands of highly scalable C apps have been written without using a heavy weight async IO library.
 636 2013-10-20 03:38:29 paracyst has joined
 637 2013-10-20 03:38:39 a_meteor has joined
 638 2013-10-20 03:38:54 <MC1984> still so much room for improvement
 639 2013-10-20 03:39:10 cysm has joined
 640 2013-10-20 03:39:11 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 641 2013-10-20 03:39:12 <MC1984> gives me hope the netowrk core can be saved
 642 2013-10-20 03:39:38 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: the boost::asio library is actually pretty well designed, IMO - but it's not just a matter of looking up specific APIs - it requires a deeper conceptual understanding of how io services work
 643 2013-10-20 03:39:50 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, except we dont need to support thousands of connections
 644 2013-10-20 03:39:52 <phantomcircuit> for small numbers of connections which mostly stay open thread per connection is actually more efficient
 645 2013-10-20 03:40:04 <phantomcircuit> since you reduce the number of context switches
 646 2013-10-20 03:40:35 <CodeShark> and yes, you can write async apps using nothing more than C and berkeley sockets - but it's a real pain in the ass to manage all that and keep it bug free
 647 2013-10-20 03:40:37 <gmaxwell> in any case, I'd rather see someone demonstrate that boost::async isn't garbage first by fixing the rpc stuff that already uses it before spreading it elsewhere.
 648 2013-10-20 03:41:10 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, the problem with boost::asio is that the actual implementing code is hugely complex
 649 2013-10-20 03:41:23 <gmaxwell> The 100ms delay can be removed with ~0 net lines of code. (ignoring any need to also implement rate limiting)
 650 2013-10-20 03:41:26 <CodeShark> I think boost::asio nicely abstracts the concept of an io service, providing a specific number of threads per service and ensuring that handlers run in specific threads
 651 2013-10-20 03:41:30 <phantomcircuit> personally im apposed to adding most boost dependencies
 652 2013-10-20 03:41:43 <CodeShark> sooner or later it will become part of the C++ standard
 653 2013-10-20 03:41:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, actually my planned patch would be reducing loc
 654 2013-10-20 03:42:05 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: best way to actualize your oppostion there is to go fix stuff yourself without adding any. Then no one can add them with an excuse that it fixes things. :P
 655 2013-10-20 03:42:16 <phantomcircuit> hehe
 656 2013-10-20 03:42:30 <CodeShark> I've written a peer implementation using boost::asio - working on a peer manager that can handle many connections
 657 2013-10-20 03:42:44 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: right we already have a select delay, so indeed it should be simpler.
 658 2013-10-20 03:43:12 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 659 2013-10-20 03:43:17 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well part of my intended patch is to change it so the thread doesn't process messages in batches
 660 2013-10-20 03:43:23 <CodeShark> using C++11 lambdas and not being afraid of a few extra copies and buffer allocations makes the code fairly simple and readable
 661 2013-10-20 03:43:28 <phantomcircuit> which is only being done because of the delay
 662 2013-10-20 03:43:46 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: except its very easy in network code to have a "few extra copies and buffer allocations" absolutely kill your performance.
 663 2013-10-20 03:44:14 <CodeShark> the copies and buffer allocations are usually not the bottleneck until you're dealing with a very, very large number of connections
 664 2013-10-20 03:44:34 <phantomcircuit> i think you'd be surprised actually
 665 2013-10-20 03:44:53 <phantomcircuit> mostly the problem is that you're going to thrash the L1/L2/L3 caches
 666 2013-10-20 03:45:01 <phantomcircuit> with a bunch of copies of the same data
 667 2013-10-20 03:45:05 <CodeShark> spawning new threads per connection is far more resource-intensive than a few extra mallocs here and there
 668 2013-10-20 03:45:27 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, not when the connections live for days
 669 2013-10-20 03:46:09 <CodeShark> the hardest part about async i/o (and multithreading generally) is managing mutable data
 670 2013-10-20 03:46:22 <CodeShark> the less mutable data you deal with, the easier it is
 671 2013-10-20 03:46:59 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, nearly everything bitcoind is doing is changing a global mutable data structure
 672 2013-10-20 03:47:07 <phantomcircuit> so that doesn't really help much :)
 673 2013-10-20 03:47:12 <CodeShark> but the individual messages needn't be mutable
 674 2013-10-20 03:47:46 <CodeShark> there is some overhead in buffer allocations - but that could be managed by using pools or a custom allocator
 675 2013-10-20 03:48:05 asdffdasfsd has joined
 676 2013-10-20 03:48:13 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, receiving, processing, and dispatching the messages is much cheaper than the logic to handle them
 677 2013-10-20 03:48:28 <CodeShark> the messages get put into a queue, then another thread manages that
 678 2013-10-20 03:48:35 <CodeShark> I'm just talking about the network code
 679 2013-10-20 03:48:57 <phantomcircuit> interthread queues are horribly slow
 680 2013-10-20 03:49:20 <CodeShark> depends on how it's designed
 681 2013-10-20 03:49:39 <CodeShark> you could use a circular buffer with only one thread having write access but all threads having read access
 682 2013-10-20 03:49:39 jtimon has joined
 683 2013-10-20 03:49:46 <phantomcircuit> the only ones that are really fast are busy loops utilizing memory fencing
 684 2013-10-20 03:50:13 <CodeShark> in any case, I don't think these issues are bottlenecks for typical usage of bitcoind
 685 2013-10-20 03:50:13 <phantomcircuit> and that's now much more complicated and requires more memory
 686 2013-10-20 03:50:29 <CodeShark> bitcoind doesn't need to manage tens of thousands of connections
 687 2013-10-20 03:50:49 <CodeShark> furthermore, you don't even need to use multiple threads
 688 2013-10-20 03:50:58 <CodeShark> you could just assign all your handlers to a single thread
 689 2013-10-20 03:51:00 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 690 2013-10-20 03:51:30 <CodeShark> you would have essentially a producer/consumer model - two threads
 691 2013-10-20 03:51:51 <CodeShark> synchronizing a queue between them isn't such a big deal
 692 2013-10-20 03:52:38 bitstocoins has joined
 693 2013-10-20 03:52:48 <CodeShark> the time it takes to process a single queue message is orders larger than the time it takes to move the data around the CPU caches
 694 2013-10-20 03:52:56 malaimo has joined
 695 2013-10-20 03:53:18 <gmaxwell> uh... why not allow the operating system to distribute work... it already has to do this, and is generally well engineered for it.
 696 2013-10-20 03:53:27 McKay has joined
 697 2013-10-20 03:54:06 <CodeShark> because by running handlers in a single thread you avoid synchronization/cache issues
 698 2013-10-20 03:54:40 <CodeShark> and it's also easier to debug :)
 699 2013-10-20 03:54:57 <phantomcircuit> maxsendbuffer defaults 1000000 bytes
 700 2013-10-20 03:55:08 shesek has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 701 2013-10-20 03:55:09 <phantomcircuit> assuming 30ms latency
 702 2013-10-20 03:55:17 <phantomcircuit> maximum of 3MB/s
 703 2013-10-20 03:55:32 <phantomcircuit> yeah i can see people complaining about that
 704 2013-10-20 03:55:43 shesek has joined
 705 2013-10-20 03:55:47 <gmaxwell> and also leave yourself exposed to resource starvation DOS attacks as we are now, but even if you do just use one thread, there is no need for an external dispatch, a simple event loop can sequentially process events, and just leave the queuing in the OS.
 706 2013-10-20 03:56:35 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: most of the complaints are people with crappy bufferbloat inflicted routers, so sending a few mbytes at a time ends up causing them 1000 ms ping times. :(
 707 2013-10-20 03:56:38 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, as gmaxwell is saying that design is comically vulnerable to a DoS attack
 708 2013-10-20 03:56:41 Krellan_ has joined
 709 2013-10-20 03:56:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's comcast in general
 710 2013-10-20 03:57:03 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i have that problem now
 711 2013-10-20 03:57:06 <bitstocoins> Question, I am developing bitcoin software. I am using bitcoin testnet My problem is this. I have had testnet bitcoins sent to my testnet wallet. I can see the transactions in the testnet blockexplorer. But no matter what i use listransactions, getbalance etc everything comes back with a 0 balamce. and same for listunspent. I cannot figure out how to find these transactions using bitcoind to actually claim the spent coins.
 712 2013-10-20 03:57:16 <CodeShark> presumably we want good DoS detection capabilities and we want to disconnect spamming nodes
 713 2013-10-20 03:57:27 <gmaxwell> bitstocoins: are you synced with the chain? how many blocks do you have?
 714 2013-10-20 03:57:30 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, if i use more than 10% of the bandwidth latency spikes to 2000ms
 715 2013-10-20 03:58:12 <bitstocoins> i should be
 716 2013-10-20 03:58:13 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it doesn't even have to be detectably spamming it could be "synchronizing the chain from you" and always decide to pull a bunch of blocks right when the network finds a block (to make your mining get orphaned)
 717 2013-10-20 03:58:20 <CodeShark> furthermore, you can use up to one thread per processor core but ensure that any particular peer's handlers are always within a single thread
 718 2013-10-20 03:58:31 <gmaxwell> bitstocoins: how many blocks do you have?
 719 2013-10-20 03:58:37 <bitstocoins> the message logs of new block have stopped just scrolling in the logs long ago
 720 2013-10-20 03:58:41 <CodeShark> so we can treat the I/O with a specific peer as sequential
 721 2013-10-20 03:59:09 <MC1984> phantomcircuit no games for you eh
 722 2013-10-20 03:59:20 <bitstocoins>     [blocks] => 264212
 723 2013-10-20 03:59:26 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: again, you can dispatch without a bunch of extra copying just by having the handers retrieve data from the OS themselves directly.
 724 2013-10-20 03:59:30 <gmaxwell> bitstocoins: thats not testnet.
 725 2013-10-20 03:59:50 <bitstocoins> lmfao
 726 2013-10-20 04:00:15 <gmaxwell> What interface shows "[blocks] =>" ? (in the style)
 727 2013-10-20 04:00:23 <bitstocoins> php cli
 728 2013-10-20 04:00:28 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, everything else is connected to a router connected to the comcast router so i just unplug it
 729 2013-10-20 04:00:29 <phantomcircuit> :/
 730 2013-10-20 04:00:52 <MC1984> lol
 731 2013-10-20 04:01:03 <bitstocoins> just going for very simple proof of concept. ;)
 732 2013-10-20 04:01:14 <MC1984> the netalyzer thing is good for telling if you have buffer problems
 733 2013-10-20 04:01:20 <MC1984> or anything else
 734 2013-10-20 04:01:24 olalonde has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 735 2013-10-20 04:01:25 <bitstocoins> to solve the problem with testnet blocks i guess i will just delete the block index and just let it redownload everything
 736 2013-10-20 04:01:53 <bitstocoins> that will be sure to slow me down by a few days :(
 737 2013-10-20 04:02:04 <phantomcircuit> bitstocoins, try restarting the client
 738 2013-10-20 04:02:08 <gmaxwell> bitstocoins: stop.
 739 2013-10-20 04:02:09 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: you solve that by giving higher priority to inv messages than to getdata messages :)
 740 2013-10-20 04:02:10 <phantomcircuit> you're probably just stuck on a bad peer
 741 2013-10-20 04:02:14 <gmaxwell> bitstocoins: nothing like that is required.
 742 2013-10-20 04:02:17 <MC1984> my isp specifically does NOT oversell its bandwidth. But then i have complicated usage caps and it costs me a pretty penny
 743 2013-10-20 04:02:22 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's not running testnet, he's running mainnet.
 744 2013-10-20 04:02:24 <bitstocoins> ok
 745 2013-10-20 04:02:34 <gmaxwell> bitstocoins: just start with actual testnet mode, and connect to your testnet node.
 746 2013-10-20 04:02:38 <CodeShark> incoming inv messages, that is
 747 2013-10-20 04:02:44 <CodeShark> they get put to the top of the queue
 748 2013-10-20 04:02:53 <MC1984> speaking of which does anything know how much kb/s an average well connected node pushes these days. I really should start again
 749 2013-10-20 04:03:18 <MC1984> anything/anyone
 750 2013-10-20 04:03:22 <CodeShark> another nice feature of a message queue like this is that we can manage our own internal prioritization completely independently from the network I/O itself
 751 2013-10-20 04:04:17 <CodeShark> getdata messages from other peers should have lower priority than inv and block messages
 752 2013-10-20 04:04:26 <bitstocoins> i am connected to the testnet node. port is set to testnet port and everything. everything is configured in configuration to use testnet. i can confirm this because the wallet information is coming back as testnet wallet, not my actual bitcoin wallet.
 753 2013-10-20 04:05:12 olalonde has joined
 754 2013-10-20 04:05:18 <gmaxwell> bitstocoins: except thats not true. Testnet has only about 130k blocks right now, IIRC. You're reporting almost as many blocks as mainnet.
 755 2013-10-20 04:05:49 <CodeShark> as for getting data from the OS itself, that's exactly what libraries like boost::asio do
 756 2013-10-20 04:06:09 <CodeShark> the issue of having to copy buffers arises when the producer and consumer manage separate memory spaces
 757 2013-10-20 04:06:38 <CodeShark> i.e. the sender of a message might reallocate the memory it used for a buffer before the consumer gets it
 758 2013-10-20 04:06:40 <phantomcircuit> bleh
 759 2013-10-20 04:06:41 <bitstocoins> yea so for whatever reason its using mainnet blocks not testnet.
 760 2013-10-20 04:07:00 <bitstocoins> when i look in testnet blockchain its huge exactly like the mainet blockchain is
 761 2013-10-20 04:07:13 <CodeShark> by separate memory spaces, I don't mean at the process level
 762 2013-10-20 04:07:16 <phantomcircuit> testnet is full of nonsense
 763 2013-10-20 04:07:28 <bitstocoins> it looks like it just copied the main net blocks for testnet blocks
 764 2013-10-20 04:07:38 <CodeShark> all threads in a process use the same memory space - I'm talking about different portions of an application maintaining their own buffers
 765 2013-10-20 04:07:47 <bitstocoins> and that would explain why it cannot find any transactions
 766 2013-10-20 04:07:51 <CodeShark> which simplifies synchronization considerably
 767 2013-10-20 04:09:03 <CodeShark> or you can use shared_ptrs or something like that, but that does carry a cost
 768 2013-10-20 04:09:30 <CodeShark> however, even for tens of connections I don't think it's much of an issue
 769 2013-10-20 04:09:46 <CodeShark> for tens of thousands, perhaps
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 773 2013-10-20 04:16:02 <CodeShark> I guess the only way to truly convince people is to build the damn thing :p
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 779 2013-10-20 04:20:00 <CodeShark> perhaps it should even be possible to throttle getdata messages with an external parameter
 780 2013-10-20 04:20:47 <CodeShark> especially when the item requested is an old block
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 783 2013-10-20 04:25:25 <CodeShark> even honest nodes can sometimes use up more of my upload bandwidth than I would like :)
 784 2013-10-20 04:26:33 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea, we need a throttler, it should be released concurrently with headers first.
 785 2013-10-20 04:26:58 <gmaxwell> (as headers first greatly improves how your remote peers respond to being throttled)
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 812 2013-10-20 05:20:33 <arioBarzan> Bitcoin's Development Visualized http://youtu.be/cVGEbtIBxIE
 813 2013-10-20 05:21:41 <gmaxwell> there have been those before, it's nice to see someone saved out a new one.
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 815 2013-10-20 05:28:00 <Luke-Jr> too bad nobody's bothered to at least fix the Author problems from early on
 816 2013-10-20 05:28:35 <Luke-Jr> would be neat if it displayed branches and their merging in a significant way too
 817 2013-10-20 05:30:58 <jgarzik> heh
 818 2013-10-20 05:31:15 <jgarzik> I wonder how many people forecast the difficulty nearly doubling every two weeks </random>
 819 2013-10-20 05:35:34 <arioBarzan> It is mind blowing how much software development has evolved from a guy like Konrad Zuse sitting lonely somewhere trying to write few lines of code, to such an unbelievable number of people gathering online to handcraft thousands lines of code for something beautiful like Bitcoin.
 820 2013-10-20 05:36:40 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 821 2013-10-20 05:37:21 <gmaxwell> the software that generates that is all open source runs just fine for me
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 824 2013-10-20 05:47:55 <jgarzik> interesting
 825 2013-10-20 05:48:03 <jgarzik> blockchain.info is doing a variant of coinjoin
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 827 2013-10-20 05:54:17 <jegz> sipa: hey i just compiled a bitcoind binary from your watchonly branch there, but i noticed the version is "v0.6.1-2376-g3d9c424-beta", is that right? didn't you just rebase?
 828 2013-10-20 05:56:09 <jgarzik> oh, sweet.  I completely missed that I can buy Amazon.com gift cards with bitcoins now.
 829 2013-10-20 05:57:39 <jegz> jgarzik: directly from Amazon?
 830 2013-10-20 05:58:14 <jgarzik> jegz, no.  gift card from Gyft.
 831 2013-10-20 05:58:27 <jegz> jgarzik: ahh... was gonna say
 832 2013-10-20 05:59:31 * jgarzik taps his feet, waiting for the Big Boys to accept bitcoin.  Aren't Amazon, Facebook, Google supposed to be tech leaders?
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 834 2013-10-20 06:02:08 <jegz> i think in this case their aversion of (mostly legal) risk is a greater influence
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 840 2013-10-20 06:11:41 <gmaxwell> Hm. So if we were to integrate some wallet feature in bitcoin-qt / bitcoind to talk to petertodd's dust-b-gone or to bc.i's  CJ service, I'd probably only want the feature to be offered if the user has tor support... simply because asking users to reason out the risk of centeralized services in a client which is otherwise completely decenteralized is probably asking too much.  But it would seem odd to have tor-conditional features.
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 843 2013-10-20 06:13:01 <jegz> with bitcoind API, sendtoaddress "Returns the transaction ID <txid> if successful." If it's unseccessful does rebroadcasting happen automatically or not?
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 845 2013-10-20 06:13:49 <gmaxwell> if its unsuccessful there is nothing to broadcast.
 846 2013-10-20 06:17:14 <jegz> oh good
 847 2013-10-20 06:24:37 <jegz> sendtoaddress has two optional comment fields
 848 2013-10-20 06:24:39 <jegz> comment and comment-to
 849 2013-10-20 06:24:53 <jegz> which one of those is the message that becomes part of the transaction and publicly viewable
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 851 2013-10-20 06:25:18 <gavinandresen> jegz: neither of them, they are both just stored in the local wallet and not broadcast.
 852 2013-10-20 06:25:34 <jegz> oh so why two of them
 853 2013-10-20 06:25:40 <jegz> and how do i set the public message?
 854 2013-10-20 06:25:41 <gavinandresen> ask satoshi….
 855 2013-10-20 06:25:45 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
 856 2013-10-20 06:25:45 <jegz> lol
 857 2013-10-20 06:26:11 <gavinandresen> I think comment is meant to be something like "payment for 11 widgets" and comment-to is meant to be something like "ACME corporation"
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 859 2013-10-20 06:26:23 <jegz> i see
 860 2013-10-20 06:26:30 <jegz> so that's just wallet data
 861 2013-10-20 06:26:34 <gavinandresen> And there is no public message in bitcoin.  Blockchain.info has build a database of txid to messages, though.
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 863 2013-10-20 06:26:46 <jegz> how does that work? lol
 864 2013-10-20 06:26:59 <jegz> what are those messages
 865 2013-10-20 06:28:52 <gavinandresen> those messages are whatever people want to say.. what do you mean, "what are they"?  e.g. https://blockchain.info/address/1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX?offset=0&filter=0
 866 2013-10-20 06:30:08 <gavinandresen> That address is a good example of why it is probably a bad idea to let anybody "involved" with an address add a publicly viewable note.  You get spam and nonsense....
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 868 2013-10-20 06:33:32 <jegz> gavinandresen: so the message is something fabricated by blockchain.info and does not exist anywhere on the network or as part of any transaction?
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 870 2013-10-20 06:33:39 <jegz> didn't the first block have some special message in it
 871 2013-10-20 06:34:31 <gavinandresen> jegz: yes, those messages are fabricated by blockchain.info.  The genesis block does have a message in it, in the 'coinbase' transaction. But those coin-generation transactions are special (and only miners can put messages there, and only very short messages)
 872 2013-10-20 06:35:02 <gavinandresen> (and there is no easy way to read those messages, they're encoded as binary block data)
 873 2013-10-20 06:35:04 <jegz> i see, thanks i was really confused by the whole message thing before
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 878 2013-10-20 06:47:54 <deego> I'm more confused now than ever. :) So, when satoshi embedded the "Chancellor on the brink of some bailout." message in the first-ever spend, that message was only viewable to him and the receipient, and not to public?
 879 2013-10-20 06:49:18 <deego> What about the pulicly viewable messages sent to FBI?
 880 2013-10-20 06:51:09 <midnightmagic> deego: That was in an area in the block which can be filled with arbitrary data -- if you mine the block in question
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 882 2013-10-20 06:54:34 <midnightmagic> deego: It is directly viewable by anyone who does a hex decode of the message..
 883 2013-10-20 06:54:54 <deego> midnightmagic: Thanks
 884 2013-10-20 06:55:13 <midnightmagic> or..  I guess a strings on the block files would do it too
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 894 2013-10-20 07:06:47 <jegz> bitcoin clients never reveal their receive addresses do they? like they don't/can't actively poll the network for transactions tried to receive addresses do they? # sorry for cross post, meant to ask here originally
 895 2013-10-20 07:09:15 <weex> jegz: the core client doesn't poll, it listens and rebroadcasts transactions
 896 2013-10-20 07:09:46 <jegz> weex: nice, that's what i would expect cool
 897 2013-10-20 07:09:53 <weex> i'm not sure if you can figure out somehow what addresses a node controls
 898 2013-10-20 07:10:21 <jegz> i guess if it spent money from that address
 899 2013-10-20 07:11:08 <jegz> when it multiwallet gonna be dooooooone
 900 2013-10-20 07:11:10 <jegz> i want it so bad
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 902 2013-10-20 07:11:41 <jegz> and sipa why does your watchwallet branch show me that i built version 0.6.something?? that can't be right
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 905 2013-10-20 07:19:05 <sipa> jegz: pretty sure you did not compile the right branch then
 906 2013-10-20 07:19:20 <jegz> sipa: oh yeah you're right lol
 907 2013-10-20 07:20:01 <jegz> sipa: wait, it's called 'watchonly' right?
 908 2013-10-20 07:22:26 <sipa> CodeShark: if you process getdata at a differentnrate than other messages, i'm sure things will break (messages are supposed to be lrocessed in order), what you can do of course is just throttle peers in general that send many getdata's
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 939 2013-10-20 08:03:10 <sipa> jegz: how did you checkout that branch?
 940 2013-10-20 08:05:05 <jegz> sipa: git clone https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin.git; git checkout watchonly
 941 2013-10-20 08:05:22 <jegz> maybe the "forced update" didn't work and I need to reclone?
 942 2013-10-20 08:06:03 * jegz is doing that now
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 944 2013-10-20 08:10:32 <warren>     // Continue to put "/P2SH/" in the coinbase to monitor
 945 2013-10-20 08:10:32 <warren>     // BIP16 support.
 946 2013-10-20 08:10:32 <warren>     // This can be removed eventually...
 947 2013-10-20 08:10:32 <warren>     const char* pszP2SH = "/P2SH/";
 948 2013-10-20 08:10:36 <warren> time to remove this?  pretty old now
 949 2013-10-20 08:11:16 <sipa> jegz: that looks alright, unless you already had a watchonly branch
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 951 2013-10-20 08:12:12 <jegz> sipa: yeah i must have done something weird like add -b to checkout :p, building now
 952 2013-10-20 08:13:16 <sipa> warren: yeah, can be removed
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 954 2013-10-20 08:24:15 <warren> BTW, does contrib/linearize/linearize.py work for anyone?
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 956 2013-10-20 08:24:58 <sipa> never tried it
 957 2013-10-20 08:25:31 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3112
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 959 2013-10-20 08:32:17 <jegz> sipa: well i built again and i still get the weird version number from bitcoind -? >> v0.6.1-2376-g3d9c424-beta
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 961 2013-10-20 08:35:10 <sipa> is that the bitcoind you just built, or a distro provided one?
 962 2013-10-20 08:35:38 <jegz> sipa: i'm running src/bitcoind -? from the root of the repo after make finishes
 963 2013-10-20 08:36:14 <jegz> sipa: the top of contrib/debian/changelog is bitcoin (0.8.5-precise1) precise; urgency=medium
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 966 2013-10-20 08:41:13 <sipa> that looks right
 967 2013-10-20 08:42:14 <jegz> sipa: it wouldn't be the security hardening would it?
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 969 2013-10-20 08:42:44 <sipa> huh?
 970 2013-10-20 08:42:54 <jegz> i noticed there is a configure option --enable-hardening
 971 2013-10-20 08:42:54 <sipa> when was that binary last modified?
 972 2013-10-20 08:43:03 <sipa> yes
 973 2013-10-20 08:43:16 <jegz> it is the binary i built :p
 974 2013-10-20 08:43:19 <jegz> i'm not running anything else
 975 2013-10-20 08:43:36 <jegz> the only other bitcoind on my system is 0.8.5 that i downloaded from a tarball
 976 2013-10-20 08:44:25 <jegz> so you're telling me that when you build it on your system and run src/bitcoind -? you don't get the weird version?
 977 2013-10-20 08:44:57 <sipa> what does 'git describe' say?
 978 2013-10-20 08:46:54 <sipa> ah i think i get it
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 980 2013-10-20 08:47:15 <sipa> you don't have the tags from the upstream repository
 981 2013-10-20 08:47:38 <sipa> so it computes the current version from others
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 983 2013-10-20 08:49:17 <jegz> oh yeah git describe also gets the crazy version
 984 2013-10-20 08:49:24 <sipa> and perhaps i have a 0.6.1 tag in my repo
 985 2013-10-20 08:49:38 <jegz> shit how do i fix it
 986 2013-10-20 08:49:52 <sipa> there's no problem
 987 2013-10-20 08:50:16 <sipa> it just doesn't know the current version
 988 2013-10-20 08:50:24 <sipa> the code is right
 989 2013-10-20 08:50:39 <jegz> i know but it's going to confuse me in the future so i want it to say the right version
 990 2013-10-20 08:51:08 <sipa> well the "right version" will be equally confusing
 991 2013-10-20 08:51:23 <sipa> 0.8.2-somethimg-something
 992 2013-10-20 08:51:37 <sipa> as that is the latest release in the current branch
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 994 2013-10-20 08:52:55 <sipa> v0.8.2-545-g3d9c424
 995 2013-10-20 08:53:11 <sipa> is what i get for my current watchonky branch
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 998 2013-10-20 08:54:24 <sipa> git remote add upstream https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
 999 2013-10-20 08:54:31 <sipa> git fetch upstream -t
1000 2013-10-20 08:55:08 <jegz> sweet, thanks
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1166 2013-10-20 15:57:17 <super3> hello
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1175 2013-10-20 16:29:34 <super3> jgarzik: awake?
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1207 2013-10-20 17:12:42 <melvster> i wonder if faucets would actually be more effective if they gave out *random* amounts
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1209 2013-10-20 17:13:44 <melvster> in a strange way bitcoin itself could be viewed as a kind of faucet
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1211 2013-10-20 17:15:05 <MC1984> eh
1212 2013-10-20 17:16:42 <melvster> ie it is a system that gives out coins
1213 2013-10-20 17:16:45 <melvster> just like the faucet
1214 2013-10-20 17:17:04 <melvster> with the faucet you fill in a catcha, with mining you generate a hash
1215 2013-10-20 17:17:14 <melvster> proof of work is like a captcha for computers :)
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1217 2013-10-20 17:26:47 <edcba> nice
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1238 2013-10-20 18:22:46 DBordello has joined
1239 2013-10-20 18:23:15 <DBordello> Can someone (easily) point me to the source for the difficulty calculation?
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1247 2013-10-20 18:32:34 <MC1984> whitepaper?
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1256 2013-10-20 18:38:01 <DBordello> nah, the code
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1262 2013-10-20 18:40:27 <super3> i tried once to run a faucet with a poor captcha
1263 2013-10-20 18:40:35 <super3> lets just say it got overrun
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1272 2013-10-20 19:00:54 <jegs> sipa: good morning!!!
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1274 2013-10-20 19:02:43 <super3> i don't think anyone is actually awake yet
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1278 2013-10-20 19:09:21 <jegs> well you are :p
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1290 2013-10-20 19:33:29 <super3> well let me rephrase. all the core devs are still dreaming about blockchain syncs
1291 2013-10-20 19:33:48 <super3> ill leave my new pull here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3119 so someone can take a look when they wake up
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1296 2013-10-20 19:42:59 <MC1984> you know mayve theyre just out somewhere having a laugh
1297 2013-10-20 19:43:10 <MC1984> seeing a film, seeing friends
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1310 2013-10-20 20:09:46 <jgarzik> super3, to be technically correct, I think we only bump the copyright year if the file was modified in 2013
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1312 2013-10-20 20:13:26 <sipa> super3: it's 10pm over here; still pretty awake
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1317 2013-10-20 20:16:28 <super3> sipa: hey. where is here?
1318 2013-10-20 20:16:59 <sipa> zurich, switzerland
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1321 2013-10-20 20:18:14 <super3> jgarzik: checked all the files on github one by one. all of them had been modified in the past year.
1322 2013-10-20 20:18:46 <super3> gavinandresen: src/threadsafety.h was the only one that i could find that had not been modified this year
1323 2013-10-20 20:18:52 <super3> oops
1324 2013-10-20 20:19:01 <super3> jgarzik: src/threadsafety.h was the only one that i could find that had not been modified this year
1325 2013-10-20 20:24:29 <sipa> and mruset.h
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1328 2013-10-20 20:30:23 <sipa> super3: merged
1329 2013-10-20 20:30:56 <sipa> for A in *.cpp *.h; do if [[ "$(git log --no-merges --since='1 jan 2013' -n 4 --pretty='format:%ad' "$A")" == "" ]]; then echo "$A"; fi; done
1330 2013-10-20 20:31:00 <sipa> ^ checked with that command
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1334 2013-10-20 20:32:20 <super3> cool. thanks sipa.
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1337 2013-10-20 20:35:20 <olalonde> when calculating balance, does the bitcoin-qt client ignore unspent outputs with non standard scripts?
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1339 2013-10-20 20:36:23 <super3> random thought: should bitcoin json-rpc be multi-lingual? of course you don't want to include that in core source but you could have a wrapper python script where the commands are appropriately named
1340 2013-10-20 20:36:30 <sipa> olalonde: that question is irrelevant
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1342 2013-10-20 20:36:44 <sipa> olalonde: a wallet only accepts transactions to scripts it itself created
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1344 2013-10-20 20:37:01 <sipa> how would it recognize any others?
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1349 2013-10-20 20:37:32 <olalonde> uh?
1350 2013-10-20 20:37:33 <sipa> an address is short form for a script
1351 2013-10-20 20:37:47 <sipa> the wallet only supports transactions to that specific script
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1353 2013-10-20 20:38:16 <sipa> (and all scripts that have corresponding addresses are standard)
1354 2013-10-20 20:40:02 <olalonde> let's say i make an transaction and one output is to your address but there is an output script that makes it unspendable
1355 2013-10-20 20:40:07 <olalonde> is that not possible?
1356 2013-10-20 20:40:17 <sipa> spendability is a per-output property
1357 2013-10-20 20:40:25 <sipa> ah, i see what you mean
1358 2013-10-20 20:40:48 <sipa> if one of the other outputs makes the transaction non-standard, i think it will not be accepted by the wallet
1359 2013-10-20 20:40:54 <sipa> as the wallet won't even get to see it
1360 2013-10-20 20:41:06 <sipa> it's dropped on the floor as soon as it arrives
1361 2013-10-20 20:41:22 <olalonde> ok
1362 2013-10-20 20:41:30 <olalonde> what do you mean as soon as it arrives?
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1364 2013-10-20 20:41:42 <olalonde> what if it's already in the blockchain
1365 2013-10-20 20:41:48 <sipa> that's different
1366 2013-10-20 20:41:56 <sipa> then standardness doesn't apply anymore
1367 2013-10-20 20:42:30 <sipa> standardness is only about relaying/accepting unconfirmed transactions
1368 2013-10-20 20:42:52 <sipa> so yes, in that case it will show up in your wallet
1369 2013-10-20 20:43:19 <olalonde> ok
1370 2013-10-20 20:43:47 <sipa> i'm sorry - i guess i was wrong with my 'that question is irrelevant' answer; there was more to it than i imagined at first
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1372 2013-10-20 20:46:36 <olalonde> no problem
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1378 2013-10-20 20:53:50 <olalonde> where would that be in the code? (get balance algorithm)
1379 2013-10-20 20:55:46 <sipa> well there are several, actually
1380 2013-10-20 20:56:05 <sipa> the normal getbalance operation is CWallet::GetBalance in wallet.cpp
1381 2013-10-20 20:56:28 <olalonde> thanks
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1396 2013-10-20 21:24:08 <olalonde> ah, thats the code i was looking for https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/9b1200c23bbced3a78b58067c1f6414103653795/src/script.cpp#L1488
1397 2013-10-20 21:25:19 <olalonde> basically it tries to solve the script and if it can solve it, it adds to balance
1398 2013-10-20 21:25:24 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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1404 2013-10-20 21:43:34 <olalonde> does anyone understand what that function does? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp#L560
1405 2013-10-20 21:45:49 <gmaxwell> olalonde: decides if a transaction is one your wallet created (really, if it holds the all the keys that signed for the coin).
1406 2013-10-20 21:45:52 <sipa> it chevks whether an input spends a coin that is yours
1407 2013-10-20 21:46:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: just one input, not an entire transaction
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1410 2013-10-20 21:48:51 <olalonde> why is it needed when checking balances? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp#L1715
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1413 2013-10-20 21:51:14 <olalonde> i mean all that matters is coins you can spend.. should not matter which transactions you did previously
1414 2013-10-20 21:51:50 <olalonde> let's say you have 0 signed transactions actually… you can still have a balance of X BTC
1415 2013-10-20 21:52:24 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
1416 2013-10-20 21:53:09 <gmaxwell> olalonde: because of change mostly.
1417 2013-10-20 21:53:11 <Scrat> olalonde: it matters because unconfirmed change txns count towards the balance
1418 2013-10-20 21:53:42 <gmaxwell> olalonde: users would freak if their balance went down 10x larger than the transaction they just sent due to the change being unconfirmed. :)
1419 2013-10-20 21:53:53 <olalonde> oh I see
1420 2013-10-20 21:54:03 <gmaxwell> (and presumably users are trusted to not doublespend themselves, ... or if they do, it's their own problem :) )
1421 2013-10-20 21:54:24 <gmaxwell> (though ... malleability makes this somewhat problematic, but at least fine for balance display purposes)
1422 2013-10-20 21:55:46 Centaure has joined
1423 2013-10-20 21:56:52 <olalonde> I'm still not sure i get that code https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp#L1692
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1425 2013-10-20 21:57:30 <olalonde> it seems it iterates through all transactions in the blockchain
1426 2013-10-20 21:57:46 <olalonde> and finds which outputs are spendable
1427 2013-10-20 21:57:52 <olalonde> by address
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1429 2013-10-20 21:59:09 <gmaxwell> olalonde: I'm not sure why you think it iterates through all transactions in the blockchain.
1430 2013-10-20 21:59:23 <olalonde> i dont know, just assumed that's how balance was calculated
1431 2013-10-20 21:59:46 <gmaxwell> No, the balance is calculated entirely out of the wallet.
1432 2013-10-20 22:00:03 <olalonde> I can't find where mapWallet is assigned
1433 2013-10-20 22:00:13 <olalonde> oh ok
1434 2013-10-20 22:00:19 <olalonde> and what is the wallet exactly?
1435 2013-10-20 22:00:45 <olalonde> when u import a private key for example, how does it update the balance
1436 2013-10-20 22:00:50 <olalonde> doesn't it have to scan the blockchain?
1437 2013-10-20 22:01:12 cysm has joined
1438 2013-10-20 22:01:18 <olalonde> or at least the UTXO set
1439 2013-10-20 22:02:13 <olalonde> getreceivedbyaddress
1440 2013-10-20 22:02:50 nova90 has quit (Quit: nova90)
1441 2013-10-20 22:03:52 <olalonde> oh, that only works if you "own" the address right
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1443 2013-10-20 22:07:27 Centaure has left ()
1444 2013-10-20 22:09:25 <sipa> olalonde: the wallet is a set of transactions, and keys
1445 2013-10-20 22:09:41 <sipa> and importing an address means rescanning the chain, yes
1446 2013-10-20 22:09:44 <sipa> but only once
1447 2013-10-20 22:09:54 <olalonde> ok, after that it is cached on the hard drive?
1448 2013-10-20 22:10:15 <sipa> it is not "cached"
1449 2013-10-20 22:10:41 <sipa> relevant transactions are added to the wallet, and the wallet is saved to disk yes
1450 2013-10-20 22:11:02 <olalonde> ok thanks, that's what I meant
1451 2013-10-20 22:11:23 <sipa> the reason i say it is not a cache, is that the wallet contains more information tham kust what is in the chain
1452 2013-10-20 22:11:37 <sipa> for example comments, account information, timestamps, ...
1453 2013-10-20 22:11:38 <olalonde> right
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1455 2013-10-20 22:11:48 <sipa> it can also contain non-confirmed transactions
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1458 2013-10-20 22:12:55 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: What is a node? Is that anyone running bitcoin-qt?
1459 2013-10-20 22:12:58 <olalonde> let's say someone sends you X btc… your client receives the transaction. where is the code that checks whether a transaction is "relevant" (spendable output) ?
1460 2013-10-20 22:13:01 Roxmandos has joined
1461 2013-10-20 22:13:20 <sipa> skinnkavaj: bitcoin-qt is one node implementation yes; a full node in particular
1462 2013-10-20 22:13:36 <sipa> a node is any software participating directly in the p2p network
1463 2013-10-20 22:13:44 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: IsMine
1464 2013-10-20 22:13:45 <skinnkavaj> So according to https://blockchain.info/ 820 Nodes connected
1465 2013-10-20 22:13:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|olalonde: it's something like "ismine"
1466 2013-10-20 22:13:49 <skinnkavaj> Isnt that low?
1467 2013-10-20 22:13:59 <skinnkavaj> 820 people running bitcoin-qt?
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1469 2013-10-20 22:14:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|skinnkavaj: that's how many nodes are connected directly to bc.i
1470 2013-10-20 22:14:07 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: maybe people are getting smart and banning bc.i from their nodes
1471 2013-10-20 22:14:13 <sipa> skinnkavaj: why do you assumr those are the only nodes in the network?
1472 2013-10-20 22:14:23 <sipa> that's just those that b.i is connected to
1473 2013-10-20 22:14:23 <skinnkavaj> sipa: How can i see total nodes over network?
1474 2013-10-20 22:14:28 <sipa> you cannot
1475 2013-10-20 22:14:33 <gmaxwell> Unknowable.
1476 2013-10-20 22:14:37 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: closest is eg http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/security.html
1477 2013-10-20 22:14:39 <skinnkavaj> sipa: You have some stats for that come on
1478 2013-10-20 22:14:39 <skinnkavaj> :D
1479 2013-10-20 22:14:43 <sipa> yes
1480 2013-10-20 22:14:52 <sipa> but those are only estimates
1481 2013-10-20 22:14:54 <MC1984_> i read somewhere recently about 2500 nodes
1482 2013-10-20 22:15:01 <MC1984_> dont know where
1483 2013-10-20 22:15:09 <MC1984_> seems plausible though i suppose
1484 2013-10-20 22:15:09 <Luke-Jr> over 9000 nodes running 0.8.5
1485 2013-10-20 22:15:10 <sipa> 2500 well & permanently reachable ones
1486 2013-10-20 22:15:16 <skinnkavaj> 69k nodes
1487 2013-10-20 22:15:17 <skinnkavaj> nice
1488 2013-10-20 22:15:17 <olalonde> that's weird. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp#L560 (there does not seem to be any check for public keys / signature)
1489 2013-10-20 22:15:18 <Luke-Jr> and tht's just 10% of all nodes
1490 2013-10-20 22:15:41 <skinnkavaj> oh vulnerable nodes
1491 2013-10-20 22:15:43 <skinnkavaj> what does that mean?
1492 2013-10-20 22:15:46 <Luke-Jr> yeah, I'm counting anything with significant availability in the last week
1493 2013-10-20 22:15:50 <sipa> olalonde: it calls another IsMine
1494 2013-10-20 22:15:55 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: running node software with known exploits
1495 2013-10-20 22:16:10 <olalonde> sipa: ah thanks, thought that was a recursive call (my cpp sucks)
1496 2013-10-20 22:16:10 <skinnkavaj> wow, that many running old bitcoin-qt versions
1497 2013-10-20 22:16:32 <MC1984_> how many of those nodes are miners too
1498 2013-10-20 22:16:37 <MC1984_> most?
1499 2013-10-20 22:16:45 <Luke-Jr> I'm surprised there's still 6% broken\
1500 2013-10-20 22:16:49 <sipa> almost certainly not
1501 2013-10-20 22:16:49 <Luke-Jr> you'd have thought they'd notice by now
1502 2013-10-20 22:16:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|MC1984_: hopefully mine of the big miners
1503 2013-10-20 22:16:59 <skinnkavaj> whats the differecne between broken and vulnerable?
1504 2013-10-20 22:17:04 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: broken don't work at all
1505 2013-10-20 22:17:07 <Luke-Jr> even without malice
1506 2013-10-20 22:17:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|skinnkavaj: I think by broken he means marchforked
1507 2013-10-20 22:17:35 <Luke-Jr> that's the current line, yes
1508 2013-10-20 22:17:53 <Luke-Jr> except it was May 15 scheduled and like August before it actually happened..
1509 2013-10-20 22:18:02 <skinnkavaj> so atelast 69k is running bitcoin 8.0
1510 2013-10-20 22:18:07 <skinnkavaj> 0.8+*
1511 2013-10-20 22:18:10 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: not necessarily
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1513 2013-10-20 22:18:26 <Luke-Jr> see http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
1514 2013-10-20 22:18:40 <Luke-Jr> 81k on 0.8.x, 3k on 0.7.x, 1k on 0.6.x
1515 2013-10-20 22:18:48 <olalonde> sipa: wait, isn't that just a recursive call? where is the other IsMine implemented?
1516 2013-10-20 22:19:04 <MC1984_> Luke-Jr is your chart there at all accurate?
1517 2013-10-20 22:19:05 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Why dont you make an alternative to blockchain.info
1518 2013-10-20 22:19:11 <skinnkavaj> partner up with sipa
1519 2013-10-20 22:19:19 <MC1984_> i mean whats the methodology
1520 2013-10-20 22:19:20 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: if I had time..
1521 2013-10-20 22:19:28 <sipa> olalonde: it's an ismine on a txout
1522 2013-10-20 22:19:44 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: sipa wrote the code behind bitcoin-seeder
1523 2013-10-20 22:19:55 <sipa> CWallet::IsMine(const CTxOut &), presumably
1524 2013-10-20 22:19:57 <MC1984_> dns seed?
1525 2013-10-20 22:20:01 <sipa> search and you'll fimd
1526 2013-10-20 22:20:04 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/bestblocks.html just gets worse and worse :<
1527 2013-10-20 22:20:07 <sipa> skinnkavaj: no intention
1528 2013-10-20 22:20:29 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: cannot take long time for you to put all those stats into one page
1529 2013-10-20 22:21:06 <MC1984_> er is that pie saying 90~% of seen nodes are not caught up
1530 2013-10-20 22:21:20 <sipa> MC1984_: it's a bitcoin p2p crawler + dns seed
1531 2013-10-20 22:21:24 <skinnkavaj> MC1984_: yeah sounds strange
1532 2013-10-20 22:22:06 <MC1984_> sipa how many can be said to be online concurrently
1533 2013-10-20 22:22:12 <MC1984_> or, how much churn is there
1534 2013-10-20 22:22:30 <sipa> my crawler considers 72k address available
1535 2013-10-20 22:22:44 <sipa> but that can just mean a few hours reachable past week
1536 2013-10-20 22:23:18 <olalonde> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.h#L236 mmm here it is
1537 2013-10-20 22:23:22 <skinnkavaj> whats the difference between a full node and another?
1538 2013-10-20 22:23:23 <MC1984_> so no concurrency stats
1539 2013-10-20 22:23:36 <MC1984_> thats what i define as 'network core' i guess
1540 2013-10-20 22:23:44 <sipa> skinnkavaj: you can have lightweoght nodes, which do not validate transactions
1541 2013-10-20 22:23:57 <sipa> skinnkavaj: like multibit or bitcoin wallet for android
1542 2013-10-20 22:24:27 <Luke-Jr> I wish those listened
1543 2013-10-20 22:25:14 <olalonde> no idea what that function does :( seems it calls yet another IsMine
1544 2013-10-20 22:25:17 <sipa> olalonde: indeed, and ::IsMine is defined in script
1545 2013-10-20 22:25:28 <olalonde> sipa: thanks :P
1546 2013-10-20 22:25:53 <sipa> it checks whether it matches a script that can be spent using your wallet's keystore
1547 2013-10-20 22:26:12 <olalonde> guess I should use an IDE
1548 2013-10-20 22:27:38 ielo has joined
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1550 2013-10-20 22:28:17 * Luke-Jr suggests Kate, nano, vim, emacs, and Qt Creator, just to cover all possible suggestions :P
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1554 2013-10-20 22:30:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: aren't some of those just text editors, not IDEs?
1555 2013-10-20 22:30:31 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: difference being? :P
1556 2013-10-20 22:30:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Maybe I'm wrong about what an IDE is... :-/
1557 2013-10-20 22:31:06 <Luke-Jr> it's not well-defined afaik
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1559 2013-10-20 22:32:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think of an IDE as a piece of software that is used to develop on the scale of a project, or sonryhing
1560 2013-10-20 22:32:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm, what the hell autocorrect?
1561 2013-10-20 22:32:16 cysm has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1562 2013-10-20 22:32:34 <sipa> what's wrong with EDLIN?
1563 2013-10-20 22:32:36 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: all of those are used for that
1564 2013-10-20 22:32:41 * Luke-Jr stares at sipa.
1565 2013-10-20 22:33:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: aren't nano, etc just file-at-a-time editors?
1566 2013-10-20 22:33:12 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: i have never opened the bitcoin source code in an IDE
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1568 2013-10-20 22:33:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or am I woefully unaware of what nano can do?
1569 2013-10-20 22:33:28 <Luke-Jr> isn't that a *DOS* name for ed? :p
1570 2013-10-20 22:33:36 <super3> Luke-Jr: just took a look at that. thats not good at all
1571 2013-10-20 22:33:53 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: Ctrl-Z and/or screen
1572 2013-10-20 22:33:54 <sipa> what is not good?
1573 2013-10-20 22:34:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: Ctrl-Z?
1574 2013-10-20 22:34:08 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: yes, lrn2unix
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1576 2013-10-20 22:34:17 <super3> 90% of nodes not being caught up
1577 2013-10-20 22:34:18 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: bring a command to the background
1578 2013-10-20 22:34:21 reizuki__ has joined
1579 2013-10-20 22:34:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Interesting
1580 2013-10-20 22:34:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why not just open another tab?
1581 2013-10-20 22:34:47 <super3> cool little pie though. how was that made?
1582 2013-10-20 22:34:54 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: hence "and/or screen"
1583 2013-10-20 22:35:08 cysm has joined
1584 2013-10-20 22:35:12 <Luke-Jr> super3: starting from wheat?
1585 2013-10-20 22:35:20 <skinnkavaj> btc 6 blocks in a row under 10 min
1586 2013-10-20 22:35:22 <sipa> i usually have just a few terminal windows open, with editors
1587 2013-10-20 22:35:24 <skinnkavaj> btcguild*
1588 2013-10-20 22:35:41 * Luke-Jr confesses to using Kate. :p
1589 2013-10-20 22:38:08 <sipa> you must consider it a sin, if it needs to be confessed?
1590 2013-10-20 22:39:28 cysm has quit (Client Quit)
1591 2013-10-20 22:39:29 <Luke-Jr> nah
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1598 2013-10-20 22:53:18 <helo> vogtfo?
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1611 2013-10-20 23:06:29 olalonde_ is now known as olalonde
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1613 2013-10-20 23:10:07 <skinnkavaj> what was dan kaminskys bitcointalk username again?
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1618 2013-10-20 23:15:38 <MC1984_> ihatebitcoin83
1619 2013-10-20 23:15:48 <litepool> ;;ticker
1620 2013-10-20 23:15:48 <gribble> MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 185.28475, Best ask: 185.96000, Bid-ask spread: 0.67525, Last trade: 185.96000, 24 hour volume: 11297.52727683, 24 hour low: 177.25000, 24 hour high: 186.12000, 24 hour vwap: 182.83163
1621 2013-10-20 23:15:58 <litepool> lol bitcoin on another bubble
1622 2013-10-20 23:15:58 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1623 2013-10-20 23:16:02 <litepool> oh sorry
1624 2013-10-20 23:16:04 <litepool> swrong channel
1625 2013-10-20 23:19:52 <sipa> skinnkavaj: dakami?
1626 2013-10-20 23:19:58 <skinnkavaj> thanks
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1635 2013-10-20 23:35:37 <skinnkavaj> Chris Moore is he active on irc?
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1655 2013-10-20 23:57:06 <Urushiol> so I'm part of a group buy refund and for some inexplicable reason, there are a number of people as part of the group that are against the use of "sendmany" for the refund.
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