1 2013-10-22 00:00:04 <Krellan_> Luke-Jr: Sounds like a plan.
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12 2013-10-22 00:12:36 <super3> quick commit: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3123
13 2013-10-22 00:13:10 <super3> took care of all the low hanging fruit in the /contrib
14 2013-10-22 00:13:48 <super3> i think the /doc README needs a full rewrite. probably add some info on tricks to get a fast blockchain sync from new install
15 2013-10-22 00:14:45 <super3> and probably add some external development resources from the wiki and other places as well
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30 2013-10-22 00:39:16 <cornfeedhobo> does anyone know how many requests bitcoind can handle?
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32 2013-10-22 00:40:20 <sipa> cornfeedhobo: simultaneously?
33 2013-10-22 00:40:48 <cornfeedhobo> or per second
34 2013-10-22 00:41:30 <sipa> depends a lot on which command, which system, ...
35 2013-10-22 00:41:37 <sipa> benchmark it if you need to know
36 2013-10-22 00:42:53 <cornfeedhobo> thats what i thought you might say
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44 2013-10-22 00:49:51 <Luke-Jr> cornfeedhobo: what do you need?
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46 2013-10-22 00:50:55 <cornfeedhobo> not sure yet, just playing around so far
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73 2013-10-22 01:13:52 <T_X> bitcoind/bitcoin-gui are currently not working with libboost 1.54 yet, are they?
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78 2013-10-22 01:18:15 <HM2> holy hell
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80 2013-10-22 01:18:38 <HM2> just objdump'd a 3 KB C++ source file compiled with -ggdb and it came out at 500 MB
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123 2013-10-22 01:53:27 <super3> jgarzik: there?
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154 2013-10-22 02:27:08 <warren> btw, has any progress on the 4 keepalive connections causing RPC to get stuck problem?
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213 2013-10-22 03:29:05 <gavinandresen> warren: Nobody is working on that as far as I know. There are easy workarounds....
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220 2013-10-22 03:39:02 <Neozonz> Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|anyone have any node.js resources?
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245 2013-10-22 04:15:19 <olalonde> anyone interested in the concept of autonomous agents? join #bitcoin-agent
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284 2013-10-22 05:21:08 <Luke-Jr> wtf, Gocoin only allows "non-commercial purposes"? Do those even exist with Bitcoin? XD
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301 2013-10-22 05:47:15 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: donations, charities, or other such purposes? :)
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304 2013-10-22 05:48:26 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: still, it's a silly condition :p
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421 2013-10-22 08:17:26 <warren> gmaxwell: oh crud. I didn't actually test a build against fedora's new openssl ec until now. 0.8.5 built against it crashes with an assertion error.
422 2013-10-22 08:17:27 <warren> EXCEPTION: 9key_error
423 2013-10-22 08:17:27 <warren> CKey::CKey() : EC_KEY_new_by_curve_name failed
424 2013-10-22 08:19:30 <t7> they dont have septic 256k1?
425 2013-10-22 08:20:40 <t7> yey i got the number right :)
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430 2013-10-22 08:23:32 <gmaxwell> warren: hm. I've been running on fedora's openssl rpms since it came out.
431 2013-10-22 08:23:36 <gmaxwell> Or so I thought!
432 2013-10-22 08:24:10 <warren> gmaxwell: there appear to have been revisions after the first that we looked at
433 2013-10-22 08:24:29 <warren> i'm reading the history
434 2013-10-22 08:24:31 <gmaxwell> Did they limit it to the NIST curves?
435 2013-10-22 08:24:50 <gmaxwell> RHEL was limited to the NIST Curves.
436 2013-10-22 08:27:32 <sipa> damn, the configure-time test in libsecp256k1 would become more complex, if it needs to test for the presence of a specific curve
437 2013-10-22 08:28:21 <gmaxwell> maybe there is a define?
438 2013-10-22 08:28:59 <gmaxwell> warren: where is the changelog?
439 2013-10-22 08:31:54 <warren> looking
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442 2013-10-22 08:40:01 <warren> commit b3551463cafee86a63c60e294f754a8c5cddc37a
443 2013-10-22 08:40:01 <warren> Author: Tomas Mraz <tmraz@fedoraproject.org>
444 2013-10-22 08:40:01 <warren> Date: Wed Oct 16 14:37:51 2013 +0200
445 2013-10-22 08:40:01 <warren> only ECC NIST Suite B curves support
446 2013-10-22 08:40:03 <warren> - drop -fips subpackage
447 2013-10-22 08:40:18 <warren> gmaxwell: well, that explains things
448 2013-10-22 08:40:36 <warren> gmaxwell: it was built the day after the previous build
449 2013-10-22 08:44:49 <null> wow. i wonder what the motivation for that was.
450 2013-10-22 08:44:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, why'd they do that?
451 2013-10-22 08:45:13 <sipa> let the paranoia begin!
452 2013-10-22 08:45:58 <null> I wonder why they wrote NIST Suite B; makes it look like NIST sets the standard- it is NSA Suite B
453 2013-10-22 08:46:13 <warren> my guess is lawyers only approved a subset
454 2013-10-22 08:46:43 <TD> fail
455 2013-10-22 08:47:16 <TD> sipa: libsecp256k1 depends on openssl?
456 2013-10-22 08:47:23 <TD> i thought it was entirely separate
457 2013-10-22 08:47:31 <sipa> TD: for tests
458 2013-10-22 08:47:37 <TD> ah
459 2013-10-22 08:47:42 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
460 2013-10-22 08:47:49 <gmaxwell> warren: yea, okay, based on their behavior in RHEL thats what I _expected_ initially.
461 2013-10-22 08:47:54 <sipa> there's a test that signs using libsecp and verifies with openssl, and the other way around
462 2013-10-22 08:47:55 jeewee has joined
463 2013-10-22 08:48:20 <warren> gmaxwell: ok, time for us to make another unhobbled RPM
464 2013-10-22 08:48:43 <warren> gmaxwell: I wouldn't use Epoch this time, it's hard to recover from it
465 2013-10-22 08:49:03 <TD> this is what happens when companies get full time legal teams
466 2013-10-22 08:49:09 <TD> they immediately make themselves "approvers"
467 2013-10-22 08:49:55 <gmaxwell> TD: whats annoying here is that I tried contacting RH legal and offered to provide a pile of documentation which would have helped may a reasoned determination here. They didn't even respond.
468 2013-10-22 08:50:09 <TD> that matches with my experience of corporate legal teams perfectly
469 2013-10-22 08:50:30 <TD> ticketing systems and SLAs are alien to this profession, it seems
470 2013-10-22 08:51:00 <TD> i was talking to a guy who is trying to get an SPV wallet into the apple app store. apparently their decision is any app that creates transactions itself, is not OK. but syncing with the network is.
471 2013-10-22 08:51:14 <TD> if the app syncs with the network, and then a third party service actually sends the money, then that's ok
472 2013-10-22 08:51:49 <TD> you can see how such reasoning might occur in a technical vacuum
473 2013-10-22 08:51:53 <null> as long as they don't change their mind for any reason :)
474 2013-10-22 08:52:23 <gmaxwell> warren: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1020292#c13
475 2013-10-22 08:52:37 jeewee has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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477 2013-10-22 08:54:21 <warren> gmaxwell: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1019390
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479 2013-10-22 08:55:24 <warren> gmaxwell: read spot's message, sounds like they're willing to review specific curves on a case-by-case basis
480 2013-10-22 08:57:48 <warren> gmaxwell: at this rate might be faster to wait for expiration ...
481 2013-10-22 09:02:31 <gmaxwell> warren: wait for _what_ expiration? there is no patent even alleged to cover what openssl does with our curve as far as I know. You can't wait for something that isn't even alleged to exist to expire.
482 2013-10-22 09:03:38 <warren> gmaxwell: wait 20 years and no need to identify issues that don't exist.
483 2013-10-22 09:05:15 a_meteor has joined
484 2013-10-22 09:05:28 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
485 2013-10-22 09:07:44 <TD> it's faster to wait for red hat to expire :(
486 2013-10-22 09:08:39 ThomasV has joined
487 2013-10-22 09:08:54 <gmaxwell> warren: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1019390#c14
488 2013-10-22 09:09:56 <warren> gmaxwell: he's hoping
489 2013-10-22 09:10:00 <warren> here's
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494 2013-10-22 09:23:00 <CodeShark> who came up with the weird bitcoin payment URL encoding scheme? why the X for exponent? and why x for hex instead of 0x?
495 2013-10-22 09:23:05 c0rw1n has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
496 2013-10-22 09:23:16 <CodeShark> wouldn't e for exponent and 0x for hex make a lot more sense? (much more typical notation)
497 2013-10-22 09:23:40 c0rw1n has joined
498 2013-10-22 09:24:29 <sipa> CodeShark: are you reading BIP20?
499 2013-10-22 09:24:45 <CodeShark> yer
500 2013-10-22 09:24:56 <sipa> note that it has been replaced by BIP21
501 2013-10-22 09:25:05 <sipa> (for that precise reason)
502 2013-10-22 09:25:15 <CodeShark> oh, heh
503 2013-10-22 09:25:43 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, warren, meh, let's just work around Fedora and get sipa's lib in there (disabled by default, initially, of course)
504 2013-10-22 09:26:25 <warren> jgarzik: it seems plausible that they'll eventually approve one particular rigid curve. meanwhile yes workaround.
505 2013-10-22 09:26:29 <CodeShark> also, shouldn't it be amountparam = "amount=" +digit [ "." *digit ] (where + means one or more)?
506 2013-10-22 09:27:01 <gmaxwell> warren: well we don't have the best rigid curve. DJB's curves are better.
507 2013-10-22 09:27:19 <CodeShark> or is amount= interpreted to mean 0?
508 2013-10-22 09:27:23 <warren> I didn't say anything about best. I meant just narrow.
509 2013-10-22 09:28:01 <jgarzik> warren, plausible, sure. But Red Hat Legal will take forever to do it...
510 2013-10-22 09:28:09 <gmaxwell> warren: ah okay, I thought you were saying that you thought they'd approve just one. And if they did it might not be ours.
511 2013-10-22 09:28:14 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
512 2013-10-22 09:28:39 <gmaxwell> Well, it'll be interesting to see if the internet conspiracy theorists decide that redhat is shilling for NSA hereâ¦
513 2013-10-22 09:28:53 <jgarzik> hum
514 2013-10-22 09:28:57 <jgarzik> someone broke RPC
515 2013-10-22 09:29:01 <jgarzik> "amount" : 0.17177393000000002
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519 2013-10-22 09:31:45 <gmaxwell> eeerkeke?!
520 2013-10-22 09:32:08 <jgarzik> rinkeldekinkel!
521 2013-10-22 09:37:50 topi` has joined
522 2013-10-22 09:37:55 <topi`> hello
523 2013-10-22 09:38:59 <topi`> just upgraded to the 0.8.5 client, and had to resync. No surprise there. However, it showed a rather inaccurate balance + unconfirmed , and still shows in the middle of reindexing. I know I have more BTC than that :) is this a known bug?
524 2013-10-22 09:39:46 <gmaxwell> topi`: if its resyncing it only shows the balance as of the point it as in the resync.
525 2013-10-22 09:39:49 <topi`> how does the client calculate the "unconfirmed" figure if it has to start from an old snapshot?
526 2013-10-22 09:39:56 <gmaxwell> topi`: upgraded from what?
527 2013-10-22 09:40:03 <topi`> 0.8.1 -> 0.8.5
528 2013-10-22 09:40:07 <gmaxwell> You shouldn't have had to resync.
529 2013-10-22 09:40:15 <topi`> or maybe it was 0.8.0
530 2013-10-22 09:40:19 <gmaxwell> (unless your 0.8.1 was corrupted or you deleted it)
531 2013-10-22 09:40:27 <gmaxwell> likewise for 0.8.0... just not prior to 0.8.0.
532 2013-10-22 09:40:31 <gmaxwell> What OS?
533 2013-10-22 09:40:35 <topi`> probably the 'book has run out of battery while the client was open.
534 2013-10-22 09:40:42 gingpark_ has joined
535 2013-10-22 09:40:42 <kinlo> osx?
536 2013-10-22 09:40:48 <sipa> jgarzik: i blame the json_spirit update
537 2013-10-22 09:40:56 <topi`> OSX, but my hibernatefile is missing, hence the hard landings
538 2013-10-22 09:41:12 Coincidental has joined
539 2013-10-22 09:41:31 <kinlo> you might want to restore that hibernate file...
540 2013-10-22 09:41:39 <sipa> jgarzik: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2740
541 2013-10-22 09:42:03 gingpark has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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545 2013-10-22 09:43:47 <gmaxwell> I'm in no position to test and back it out right now, but I think we need to fix that urgently in git. (yea yea, not supposted to use it in production but some people do, and screwing that up may cause funds to get lost)
546 2013-10-22 09:43:51 <jgarzik> sipa, probably
547 2013-10-22 09:46:38 <CodeShark> the API for sending transactions should always consist of two calls if we really want to make it safe - one which creates the transaction and stores it, the second which sends it over the network
548 2013-10-22 09:46:55 <sipa> CodeShark: why store before send?
549 2013-10-22 09:46:59 <CodeShark> if you're in the middle of calling sendtoaddress and the program crashes, what state are you in now?
550 2013-10-22 09:47:12 <sipa> one to create, one to sign, and one to store/broadcast ?
551 2013-10-22 09:47:27 <CodeShark> well, for true security, yes
552 2013-10-22 09:48:02 <CodeShark> point is if something goes wrong while in the middle of creating/sending, it's hard for the caller to check the state
553 2013-10-22 09:48:03 <jgarzik> eh? That's what we have now: create, sign, send
554 2013-10-22 09:48:13 <gmaxwell> he doesn't mean raw transactions.
555 2013-10-22 09:48:16 <jgarzik> oh
556 2013-10-22 09:48:27 <gmaxwell> (and yea, that workflow is one of the reasons I use raw transactions all the time now)
557 2013-10-22 09:48:30 <jgarzik> for internal, sure, store before send
558 2013-10-22 09:48:41 <jgarzik> send might fail for any number of reasons unrelated to the TX
559 2013-10-22 09:49:20 olalonde_ has joined
560 2013-10-22 09:49:37 <jgarzik> ACK
561 2013-10-22 09:49:43 <jgarzik> reverting json-spirit changes fixes
562 2013-10-22 09:50:38 olalonde_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
563 2013-10-22 09:50:49 <sipa> jgarzik: can you check which of both commits breaks it?
564 2013-10-22 09:51:28 olalonde has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
565 2013-10-22 09:51:58 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
566 2013-10-22 09:52:03 <CodeShark> as for the json API, it might be a good idea to allow all amounts to be passed back as integers rather than floating point numbers
567 2013-10-22 09:52:13 <CodeShark> easier to parse :)
568 2013-10-22 09:52:20 <CodeShark> less that can go wrong
569 2013-10-22 09:52:33 arioBarzan has joined
570 2013-10-22 09:52:47 <CodeShark> the only time we should really ever be using floating point numbers is in the user interface
571 2013-10-22 09:52:57 debiantoruser has joined
572 2013-10-22 09:53:08 <CodeShark> and perhaps URLs if we want to make them more friendly
573 2013-10-22 09:53:41 <sipa> CodeShark: you have no idea how much bikeshedding that argument has caused already
574 2013-10-22 09:53:56 <sipa> up to the point where it inspired people to create an rpc v2
575 2013-10-22 09:54:01 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: normally our "floating point numbers" are fake. They're effectively a integer with a dot sprinkled into it. (which is part of why that bug is do dangerous)
576 2013-10-22 09:54:01 <jgarzik> sipa, the raw_utf8 change seems highly unlikely to have broken anything
577 2013-10-22 09:54:29 <gmaxwell> s/do/so/
578 2013-10-22 09:54:30 <CodeShark> using floating point numbers in financial software is generally a really bad idea unless you're extremely careful with datatypes
579 2013-10-22 09:54:41 <sipa> if i'd create an rpc interface now, i'd use integers or string-encoded floating points
580 2013-10-22 09:54:48 <sipa> but backward compatibility blah blah
581 2013-10-22 09:54:54 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: which is why you can just remove the dot and its an integer.
582 2013-10-22 09:54:58 <jgarzik> sadly: string-encoded integers
583 2013-10-22 09:55:02 <jgarzik> is what I'd pick
584 2013-10-22 09:55:15 <sipa> jgarzik: belt AND suspenders? :)
585 2013-10-22 09:55:32 <wumpus> CodeShark: keeping the 8-digits as an implementation detail inside the client has its advantages too
586 2013-10-22 09:55:33 <gmaxwell> crap that uses int32_t for integers.
587 2013-10-22 09:55:35 <petertodd> jgarzik: I'd pick period encoded integers, one . per satoshi
588 2013-10-22 09:55:49 <jgarzik> sipa, at least one popular implementation stores integers in 32 bits :(
589 2013-10-22 09:55:52 <gmaxwell> ...........................................................................................................................................................................
590 2013-10-22 09:55:56 <gmaxwell> Church coins.
591 2013-10-22 09:56:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Luke would like that
592 2013-10-22 09:56:08 * petertodd ducks
593 2013-10-22 09:56:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: just O(n) in the amount!
594 2013-10-22 09:56:26 <CodeShark> we can maintain backwards compatibility by allowing an optional parameter to the API that requests quoted integers be passed back
595 2013-10-22 09:56:30 <petertodd> sipa: I wonder if I can come up with a O(n^2) integer encoding...
596 2013-10-22 09:56:51 <CodeShark> or even including both the current format AND quoted integers
597 2013-10-22 09:56:52 <petertodd> sipa: oh, 3d pyramids!
598 2013-10-22 09:56:54 <wumpus> if we're going with string encoded I'd do string encoded decimal amounts, not integers
599 2013-10-22 09:57:02 <sipa> wumpus: same
600 2013-10-22 09:57:07 <jgarzik> meh
601 2013-10-22 09:57:10 <wumpus> that easily ports to the Python decimal type and such
602 2013-10-22 09:57:18 <jgarzik> wumpus, disagree
603 2013-10-22 09:57:22 <sipa> wumpus: it has the (tiny, and probably worthless) advantage of abstracting the fact that there are 8 decimals :)
604 2013-10-22 09:57:24 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
605 2013-10-22 09:57:25 <wumpus> otherwise, you have to keep the 8 as constant everywhere
606 2013-10-22 09:57:25 <jgarzik> having tried to do just that in python
607 2013-10-22 09:57:43 <petertodd> wumpus: python-bitcoinlib uses pure ints everywhere
608 2013-10-22 09:58:01 <wumpus> I really don't like using satoshis in the interface, then again, I'm likely alone in this
609 2013-10-22 09:58:06 * jgarzik has run into multiple bugs related to decimal->satoshi->decimal conversion
610 2013-10-22 09:58:10 <jgarzik> It's simply field experience
611 2013-10-22 09:58:16 <wumpus> yeah yeah yeah...
612 2013-10-22 09:58:30 <petertodd> jgarzik: heck, I gotta add some bodged up type-checking to python-bitcoinlib :/
613 2013-10-22 09:58:37 <wumpus> why not go to a completely binary interface while we're at it
614 2013-10-22 09:58:43 <gmaxwell> obviously we need to just switch to adam back's homomorphically encrypted values.
615 2013-10-22 09:58:43 <sipa> let's use base-Phi encoded digits
616 2013-10-22 09:58:45 <CodeShark> satoshis are clearly impractical and cumbersome for anything in a user interface - but that's not what we're talking about
617 2013-10-22 09:59:01 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: our RPC interface is also the cli interface today.
618 2013-10-22 09:59:01 <wumpus> they are cumbersome in a developer-facing API too
619 2013-10-22 09:59:06 <sipa> with a varint in front to denote their length
620 2013-10-22 09:59:12 <sipa> encoded itself in base Phi
621 2013-10-22 09:59:16 <jgarzik> satoshis are fine for anyone skilled enough to use RPC
622 2013-10-22 09:59:22 <petertodd> sipa: and sprinkled with love!
623 2013-10-22 09:59:29 <gmaxwell> and the rpc == cli has tremendous learning curve advantages.
624 2013-10-22 09:59:39 <null> i hope you're planning on using a dual quaternion exponent
625 2013-10-22 09:59:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: encryped using the Φ-hiding assumption!
626 2013-10-22 09:59:57 <petertodd> jgarzik: heh, for awhile I could write out transactions in hex by hand... but python-bitcoinlib has made me soft
627 2013-10-22 09:59:59 <wumpus> null: quaternion monetary values would be interesting
628 2013-10-22 10:00:04 <jgarzik> To git@github.com:jgarzik/bitcoin.git
629 2013-10-22 10:00:04 <jgarzik> * [new branch] smells-like-json-spirit -> smells-like-json-spirit
630 2013-10-22 10:00:10 <wumpus> hehe
631 2013-10-22 10:00:12 <petertodd> lol
632 2013-10-22 10:00:18 <jgarzik> github amusingly named the pull request by branch, too
633 2013-10-22 10:00:24 <jgarzik> "Smells like json spirit" was the suggest PR title
634 2013-10-22 10:00:29 <jgarzik> *suggested
635 2013-10-22 10:00:53 * jgarzik changed it to preserve the decorum of our sensitive minds
636 2013-10-22 10:00:56 <gmaxwell> yea, I think people have commented on my silly branch titles before.
637 2013-10-22 10:01:33 <jgarzik> petertodd, speaking of, where are your PRs for python-bitcoinlib...
638 2013-10-22 10:01:54 <petertodd> jgarzik: lol, I did say I'd get pynode working right? yeah, that'll take awhile :)
639 2013-10-22 10:01:58 <jgarzik> petertodd, we can pythonize any time, as long as pynode doesn't break / is upgraded
640 2013-10-22 10:02:29 arioBarzan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
641 2013-10-22 10:02:32 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, it might not be so bad to upgrade pynode... I'll have to look into that again.
642 2013-10-22 10:03:13 <petertodd> jgarzik: spending too much time actually using it, e.g. dust-b-gone
643 2013-10-22 10:03:23 <jgarzik> hehe
644 2013-10-22 10:03:33 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I'd missed that op_return patch didn't allow ones without data. Can you submit a pull fixing that.
645 2013-10-22 10:03:35 <petertodd> bitcoin.rpc is *really* useful
646 2013-10-22 10:03:39 <gmaxwell> I will ack ack ack ack ack.
647 2013-10-22 10:04:52 <petertodd> sure, one sec...
648 2013-10-22 10:05:33 Sealy has joined
649 2013-10-22 10:06:05 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, petertodd, ditto
650 2013-10-22 10:06:14 FabianB_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
651 2013-10-22 10:08:17 FabianB has joined
652 2013-10-22 10:09:59 agricocb has joined
653 2013-10-22 10:14:12 <petertodd> ls
654 2013-10-22 10:14:47 <gmaxwell> $
655 2013-10-22 10:14:51 <petertodd> dir
656 2013-10-22 10:16:21 <jgarzik> One of the Linux kernel guys, Greg KH (USB maintainer, device api, ...) did an experiment where he tweeted every command he typed on the command line.
657 2013-10-22 10:16:35 <jgarzik> That lasted until he accidentally typed a password as a command.
658 2013-10-22 10:16:49 <null> should have seen it coming
659 2013-10-22 10:16:58 <petertodd> heh, I guess there isn't any solid reason not to allow more than one TX_NULL (OP_RETURN) per tx
660 2013-10-22 10:17:11 <petertodd> not exactly a convenient way to stuff data
661 2013-10-22 10:17:16 <petertodd> :P
662 2013-10-22 10:17:17 ivan\ has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
663 2013-10-22 10:17:30 <jgarzik> petertodd, let's not expand the scope...
664 2013-10-22 10:17:35 <petertodd> heh
665 2013-10-22 10:17:37 <jgarzik> petertodd, might delay the PR
666 2013-10-22 10:17:51 <petertodd> jgarzik: I'll make the IsStandard code treat it as data
667 2013-10-22 10:19:06 <gmaxwell> petertodd: we're still struggling with "whats permitted == moral right" that encourages us to leave it harder to encode more data.
668 2013-10-22 10:19:30 vitruvian has joined
669 2013-10-22 10:21:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: see, this is why I should make a nice library for embedding data in transactions, with a nice scary name like "cringworthy" and documentation saying over and over again how it's sneaky deceptive steganography :P
670 2013-10-22 10:24:59 <petertodd> jgarzik: you realize your code makes "reqSigs" = 32749 in decoderawtransaction right?
671 2013-10-22 10:25:28 <jgarzik> petertodd, no, did not realize that
672 2013-10-22 10:25:36 <jgarzik> petertodd, file an issue, if you would please
673 2013-10-22 10:26:01 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, I'm writing TX_NULL right now, so I'll just fix it
674 2013-10-22 10:26:04 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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676 2013-10-22 10:27:01 <petertodd> ah, it's because in ExtractDestinations() you don't set nRequiredRet
677 2013-10-22 10:27:34 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
678 2013-10-22 10:27:51 <petertodd> hmm... I think setting it to zero is ok
679 2013-10-22 10:29:04 <petertodd> ok, now decoderawtransactions says:
680 2013-10-22 10:29:06 <petertodd> "scriptPubKey" : {
681 2013-10-22 10:29:11 <petertodd> "asm" : "OP_RETURN 1",
682 2013-10-22 10:29:16 <petertodd> "reqSigs" : 0,
683 2013-10-22 10:29:21 <petertodd> "type" : "nulldata",
684 2013-10-22 10:29:29 <petertodd> "addresses" : []
685 2013-10-22 10:29:30 <petertodd> }
686 2013-10-22 10:29:44 melvster has joined
687 2013-10-22 10:29:54 <petertodd> it's data, so I think it's reasonable to say there are no addresses involved
688 2013-10-22 10:31:17 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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691 2013-10-22 10:35:20 Wild_Bill has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
692 2013-10-22 10:36:19 <jgarzik> petertodd, correct
693 2013-10-22 10:36:36 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
694 2013-10-22 10:37:41 Ramokk has joined
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698 2013-10-22 10:38:54 <petertodd> jgarzik: I made ExtractDestinations() return false for them, and changed the rpc code slightly so the type still says whatever is appropriate, which means the "reqSigs" and "addresses" things don't show up now. perfect! ha
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703 2013-10-22 10:42:42 <jgarzik> petertodd, IMO reqSigs should be present, at a minimum
704 2013-10-22 10:42:59 <jgarzik> petertodd, reqSigs:0 is valid and logical
705 2013-10-22 10:43:06 <petertodd> jgarzik: required implies you can spend it I think
706 2013-10-22 10:43:36 <wumpus> sipa: it's just that I've never really been comfortable with hardcoding the 8 decimals everywhere, it's just a random number picked by satoshi one day which makes a lot of sense as internal computation format, but in data structures for interfacing/storing it would make conceptual sense to use a format that doesn't require implicit knowledge of a multiplication factor
707 2013-10-22 10:44:02 <jgarzik> petertodd, reqSigs should remain, software like txtool looks at that
708 2013-10-22 10:44:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: but reqSigs isn't present for non-standard txouts
709 2013-10-22 10:44:39 <sipa> jgarzik: then it should be +infinity
710 2013-10-22 10:44:44 <sipa> if you can't spend it
711 2013-10-22 10:45:08 <petertodd> ScriptSigArgsExpected() returns -1 for TX_NONSTANDARD right now, I think that makes sense for TX_NULL and NULLDATA too
712 2013-10-22 10:45:21 <petertodd> in both cases we have no idea how to spend them :)
713 2013-10-22 10:45:29 bmcgee has joined
714 2013-10-22 10:45:45 <jgarzik> I am wary of freely mixing tx_null and tx_nonstandard
715 2013-10-22 10:46:07 <petertodd> jgarzik: I'm not mixing anything, I'm just following the same logic
716 2013-10-22 10:46:08 <jgarzik> theoretical arguments like this tend to break things in practice
717 2013-10-22 10:46:19 <petertodd> jgarzik: right, but then non-standard is breaking your stuff too :)
718 2013-10-22 10:46:35 <sipa> i dislike the addresses and reqsigs stuff in general
719 2013-10-22 10:46:51 <sipa> a transaction has a single destination, and that destination script may or may not have a corresponding address
720 2013-10-22 10:47:02 <sipa> how to spend from it is independent from that
721 2013-10-22 10:47:09 macboz has joined
722 2013-10-22 10:47:22 <sipa> it's confusing addresses as script destination with addresses as key identifiers
723 2013-10-22 10:47:44 <petertodd> sipa: agreed
724 2013-10-22 10:48:03 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
725 2013-10-22 10:48:14 <sipa> a separate command to query the wallet about whether it knows how to spend from a particular script/address would be nice
726 2013-10-22 10:48:25 <petertodd> sipa: also agreed
727 2013-10-22 10:48:37 <petertodd> sipa: validateaddress + validatescriptsig
728 2013-10-22 10:48:45 <petertodd> er, validatescriptpubkey
729 2013-10-22 10:48:47 <jgarzik> not confusing so much as providing some convenience in the raw RPC API. However technically correct is this argument, users are currently trained to know addresses.
730 2013-10-22 10:49:11 <gmaxwell> should replace them with ascii pictographs like the openssh stuff. :P
731 2013-10-22 10:49:14 <jgarzik> witness, e.g. the creation API that asks for addresses, not tx destinations/outputs
732 2013-10-22 10:49:25 <sipa> that's perfectly fine
733 2013-10-22 10:49:33 ovidiusoft has joined
734 2013-10-22 10:49:36 <sipa> addresses are short hands for scripts
735 2013-10-22 10:49:50 <gmaxwell> yea, an address is just a compressed representation of a script.
736 2013-10-22 10:49:52 <jgarzik> the multisig stuff takes addresses, and does a wallet lookup for pubkey, before putting pubkeys into a multisig or multisig-address(p2sh)
737 2013-10-22 10:49:55 <sipa> but i'd very much have preferred if addresses weren't used as key identifiers
738 2013-10-22 10:50:02 <CodeShark> let's get rid of addresses once and for all :p
739 2013-10-22 10:50:03 <petertodd> anyway, it seems crazy for ScriptSigArgsExpected() to return 1 for TX_NULL_DATA, which is what it does right now. That very clearly indicates to me "can be spent" with one pushdata in a scriptSig.
740 2013-10-22 10:50:09 <sipa> for example if one had an extra prefix, or was encoded differently
741 2013-10-22 10:50:17 <CodeShark> payment info consists of a txoutscript
742 2013-10-22 10:50:28 <CodeShark> pay-to-pubkey-hash is just one type of txoutscript
743 2013-10-22 10:50:52 <CodeShark> by just using txoutscript always, we get full generality
744 2013-10-22 10:51:01 <CodeShark> with very little extra cost in space
745 2013-10-22 10:51:07 <sipa> even nicer would have been if bitcoin was p2sh-only :)
746 2013-10-22 10:51:19 <sipa> then you'd have exactly one type of output, and it would be completely generic
747 2013-10-22 10:51:23 <jgarzik> petertodd, agreed, though you must check behavior of all callers
748 2013-10-22 10:51:30 <jgarzik> petertodd, c.f. Theory vs. Reality
749 2013-10-22 10:51:42 <CodeShark> sipa: agreed - but barring that, we can just agree to always use the full txoutscript
750 2013-10-22 10:51:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: even with that someone would eventually want to update the has. :P
751 2013-10-22 10:51:47 <gmaxwell> er hash
752 2013-10-22 10:51:57 <CodeShark> always using the txoutscript is only a UI-level change
753 2013-10-22 10:52:04 <CodeShark> requiring p2sh is a protocol change
754 2013-10-22 10:52:41 <jgarzik> "using by default, always" does not necessarily imply "requiring"
755 2013-10-22 10:52:59 <petertodd> jgarzik: I just did within bitcoin-qt, and among other things AreInputsStandard() would be somewhat confused by TX_NULL_DATA returning 1.
756 2013-10-22 10:53:13 <CodeShark> but if we allow non p2sh scripts, again we need that annoying code to handle each special case for different base58 version bytes
757 2013-10-22 10:53:35 <CodeShark> unless we just do away with addresses altogether and use txoutscripts
758 2013-10-22 10:54:16 <sipa> or only use p2SH for future "standard" script
759 2013-10-22 10:54:47 cypher has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
760 2013-10-22 10:54:48 sacredchao has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
761 2013-10-22 10:54:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'd like to do that, but I'm a little unhappy with suicidepacting on a 160bit hash function.
762 2013-10-22 10:54:53 <CodeShark> sipa, point is as long as the protocol still allows non p2sh scripts, all implementations will have to have a special check for this condition
763 2013-10-22 10:55:06 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: depends on what kind of implementation. A wallet doesn't.
764 2013-10-22 10:55:18 <sipa> CodeShark: validation nodes don't care
765 2013-10-22 10:55:32 <gmaxwell> removing non-p2sh transactions is a softforking change though.
766 2013-10-22 10:55:35 <sipa> CodeShark: and wallets only need to deal with scripts they advertize themself
767 2013-10-22 10:55:49 <gmaxwell> (not saying that should be done, just pointing out that it could be done)
768 2013-10-22 10:56:14 <CodeShark> sipa: that's not entirely true - a wallet needs to be able to pay out to other types of scripts
769 2013-10-22 10:56:20 <jgarzik> One big drawback of only-P2SH is that it precludes certain transparency and auditing schemes, which can be a choice by the sender for their transactions to be publicly tracked in the chain.
770 2013-10-22 10:56:30 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: well technically, they don't. (and some today won't pay to p2sh. :( )
771 2013-10-22 10:56:42 <CodeShark> if we just always use txoutscripts instead of addresses, it solves all the problems we're discussing without any kind of soft fork
772 2013-10-22 10:56:43 <sipa> jgarzik: auditability should be optional anyway
773 2013-10-22 10:56:43 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it doesn't! you just have to have a way to disclose the script.
774 2013-10-22 10:56:45 <petertodd> jgarzik: no worries, just include the scriptPubKey in a OP_RETURN data txout :P
775 2013-10-22 10:56:51 <gmaxwell> (including spending from it once)
776 2013-10-22 10:57:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: not always possible
777 2013-10-22 10:57:01 <jgarzik> sipa, agreed
778 2013-10-22 10:57:15 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you just pointed out why it's always possible. :)
779 2013-10-22 10:57:28 <petertodd> anyway, TXO commitments could change a lot of these discussions
780 2013-10-22 10:57:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, sure... OOB, which is sub-optimal to hash-sealed in chain
781 2013-10-22 10:57:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: siap did say *only* P2SH
782 2013-10-22 10:57:47 <petertodd> gmaxwell: heh
783 2013-10-22 10:57:58 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, er published, not hash sealed
784 2013-10-22 10:58:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell, jgarzik: ok, pull-req here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3128
785 2013-10-22 10:58:23 <gmaxwell> petertodd: TXO commitments basically makes everything p2sh anyways.
786 2013-10-22 10:58:47 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: you can permit an in-band thing if you want to, kinda orthorgonal.
787 2013-10-22 10:58:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, I was specifically thinking the standard should store H(scriptPubKey) basically, so that node storage is guaranteed to be P2SH^2 like
788 2013-10-22 10:59:14 ircuser-6 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
789 2013-10-22 10:59:17 <CodeShark> if we want to support a powerful scripting language that allows many different types of scripts, let's stick to an identifier that always works with the least need for special logic to handle different cases. if we want to handle only special cases, let's get rid of the script and just hardcode a few transaction types
790 2013-10-22 10:59:21 <CodeShark> either approach is reasonable
791 2013-10-22 10:59:24 <CodeShark> what we currently have isd not
792 2013-10-22 10:59:57 bitRipperX has joined
793 2013-10-22 11:00:01 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: blah blah
794 2013-10-22 11:00:14 <gmaxwell> Is the lecture done yet?
795 2013-10-22 11:00:16 <sipa> CodeShark: i don't see how P2SH doesn't cover that exactly
796 2013-10-22 11:00:29 <petertodd> CodeShark: re: powerful, lets make an alt-coin that uses lisp as the scripting language
797 2013-10-22 11:00:34 <CodeShark> sipa: I'd be totally fine with p2sh-onlyâ¦unfortunately, that's a forking change
798 2013-10-22 11:00:46 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
799 2013-10-22 11:00:51 <sipa> CodeShark: validation nodes just implement scripts
800 2013-10-22 11:00:58 <gmaxwell> that its a forking change isn't a problem. That some people are opposed to it and its a forking change is. :)
801 2013-10-22 11:01:06 <CodeShark> sipa: validation nodes also filter nonstandard transactions for relay
802 2013-10-22 11:01:13 <jgarzik> Problems with deploying P2SH right now (I know, BitPay is trying to...): Lack of bitcoinj support. Recipient doesn't necessarily have the script in their wallet.
803 2013-10-22 11:01:14 <CodeShark> at least most presently do
804 2013-10-22 11:01:20 <jgarzik> OOB is just a hand-wave
805 2013-10-22 11:02:10 <sipa> so let's implement send-to-P2SH in BitcoinJ
806 2013-10-22 11:02:25 <CodeShark> and given that most wallets currently mainly use p2pubkey hash, trying to move everyone over to p2sh is unreasonable - however, encouraging a dual format for payment "addresses" - either the current formats or a full txoutscriptâ¦and then gradually moving away from the current addresses - is very doable
807 2013-10-22 11:02:26 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm not talking about OOB. But I am talking about future stuff, so there is a degree of handwave there. I'm pointing out that p2sh only is not mutually exclusive with transparency, even in-band if you want to enable that.
808 2013-10-22 11:02:28 <TD> i gave someone pointers on how to do that about a month ago, but they never sent me a patch
809 2013-10-22 11:02:33 <petertodd> sipa: I looked into that, it's harder than it looks
810 2013-10-22 11:02:46 <petertodd> sipa: Armory has the same problem
811 2013-10-22 11:02:47 <TD> p2sh only would be a PITA. it'd mean a lot of code would have to be rewritten. not worth it.
812 2013-10-22 11:03:00 <gmaxwell> TD: I gave up trying to get multibit complied. so did Phantomcircuit.
813 2013-10-22 11:03:00 <jgarzik> Think through the use case of making P2SH default for send-to-bitcoin address, today. Recipients must know to add a script address for a pubkeyhash, before they receive each payment.
814 2013-10-22 11:03:02 <jgarzik> Ugly.
815 2013-10-22 11:03:15 <jgarzik> Perhaps wallets should go ahead and add a p2sh address for each phk.
816 2013-10-22 11:03:17 <jgarzik> *pkh
817 2013-10-22 11:03:21 <TD> gmaxwell: i'll have to try it out soon
818 2013-10-22 11:03:27 <TD> it's been a while since i did that.
819 2013-10-22 11:03:44 <CodeShark> the recipient should just give the sender a txoutscript - the sender shouldn't care about whether it's a hash or some other type of script
820 2013-10-22 11:03:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: oh yea, obviously it couldn't be only unless it was all transparamagic.
821 2013-10-22 11:04:16 <CodeShark> it's up to the recipient to issue a txoutscript he/she can redeem
822 2013-10-22 11:04:18 <TD> gmaxwell: that said multibit and the android wallet are just ui wrappers around bitcoinj anyway. i'm not sure they'd need to change much directly
823 2013-10-22 11:04:20 <CodeShark> not up to the sender
824 2013-10-22 11:04:31 <gmaxwell> TD: yea, but need a way to test changes. :)
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826 2013-10-22 11:05:22 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea, that would have been smart. Somehow the discussion missed the possibility of encoding scriptpubkeys but also using p2sh to make them compact. Straight script were discussed, but non-compatness is a problem for some use cases.
827 2013-10-22 11:05:34 <jgarzik> multisig P2SH is annoying due to pubkey ordering
828 2013-10-22 11:05:43 <jgarzik> it would be Very Nice if there was a canonical sort order
829 2013-10-22 11:05:53 <CodeShark> jgarzik: in my implementation, I've just resorted to sorting them always when generating a new account
830 2013-10-22 11:06:00 <petertodd> jgarzik: yes, and there is :)
831 2013-10-22 11:06:07 <CodeShark> that way it ensures that given the same set of keychains the account is always the same
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833 2013-10-22 11:06:21 <petertodd> CodeShark: thanks!
834 2013-10-22 11:06:29 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, define one. :) (funny, turns out that I used a different sorted order than petertodd...)
835 2013-10-22 11:06:41 <petertodd> I've made a few manual ones for contracts, and I always sort myself.
836 2013-10-22 11:07:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that's because you're a bad person, incapable of love
837 2013-10-22 11:07:11 <TD> the micropayment protocol has a <client> <server> type ordering. not sorted.
838 2013-10-22 11:07:12 <jgarzik> well that's fine, the point is being able to predict someone else's ordering
839 2013-10-22 11:07:17 <CodeShark> senders to the wallet don't care about the sorting - only the program that creates the txoutscripts needs to care
840 2013-10-22 11:07:19 <jgarzik> sufficient to predict a multisig address
841 2013-10-22 11:07:30 <gmaxwell> now its hard to fix though. :(
842 2013-10-22 11:07:45 <CodeShark> that's to say, only the person receiving at a p2sh cares about the sorting
843 2013-10-22 11:07:46 <gmaxwell> because for compatiblity you need to be able to work with "wrong" ones too.
844 2013-10-22 11:07:53 <CodeShark> or anyone monitoring that account
845 2013-10-22 11:07:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: heh, make it an IsStandard() rule
846 2013-10-22 11:07:55 * petertodd ducks
847 2013-10-22 11:07:59 <gmaxwell> yuck
848 2013-10-22 11:08:01 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, nah just manually add them -- as you do now
849 2013-10-22 11:08:08 <CodeShark> it would be nice to have an official sorting
850 2013-10-22 11:08:24 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I mean addmultisig should just make it right for you. But we can't change the interface to do that without breaking things.
851 2013-10-22 11:08:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Interestingly, that's a case I hadn't thought of re: data-in-chain steganography
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853 2013-10-22 11:08:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, disagree
854 2013-10-22 11:08:40 <gmaxwell> petertodd: can only encode a couple bits via permutations.
855 2013-10-22 11:08:47 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, it's beta software. Get it right before 1.0.
856 2013-10-22 11:09:05 <CodeShark> bitcoind is simply not practical for doing multisigs right now
857 2013-10-22 11:09:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: No, I mean getting around the enforced ordering, similar to turning data into valid pubkeys.
858 2013-10-22 11:09:08 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, very small number of users today
859 2013-10-22 11:09:13 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, of P2SH multsig
860 2013-10-22 11:09:15 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I mean people can get funds stuck and unspendable if we change it. Not many... but.
861 2013-10-22 11:09:33 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, number of people impacted... 1? 2?
862 2013-10-22 11:09:48 <jgarzik> p2sh on mainnet is incredibly rare, sadly
863 2013-10-22 11:10:02 <petertodd> jgarzik: I've got two contracts using P2SH right now in fact
864 2013-10-22 11:10:04 <gmaxwell> at least 3. (me, sipa, theymos though we can just patch around it)
865 2013-10-22 11:10:09 <CodeShark> if you don't know how to unstick the funds manually you probably shouldn't be using p2sh via bitcoind in the first place :p
866 2013-10-22 11:10:10 <gmaxwell> petertodd: but you can also patch around it.
867 2013-10-22 11:10:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ?
868 2013-10-22 11:10:36 <jgarzik> the value of a standard order > a few experiments by early adopters
869 2013-10-22 11:10:39 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you can modify the code to turn off the sorting in addmultisig.
870 2013-10-22 11:10:42 <jgarzik> simply
871 2013-10-22 11:10:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: ACK enough.
872 2013-10-22 11:10:48 <CodeShark> I fully agree, jgarzik
873 2013-10-22 11:11:15 <CodeShark> so what's the official order?
874 2013-10-22 11:11:22 <CodeShark> do we need a BIP?
875 2013-10-22 11:11:32 <gmaxwell> there are two obvious possibilities.
876 2013-10-22 11:11:36 <petertodd> CodeShark: sorted little-endian, expect the last value is bigendian
877 2013-10-22 11:11:44 <TD> sigh. i can't build multibit either. somehow his fork of bitcoinj doesn't compile. i filed an issue
878 2013-10-22 11:11:52 * TD wishes there was more competition in the wallet space
879 2013-10-22 11:11:55 <gmaxwell> TD: \O/
880 2013-10-22 11:12:02 <gmaxwell> TD: everyone wants to write a new full node.
881 2013-10-22 11:12:06 <TD> unfortunately it seems lately people only want to make mac wallets or full nodes
882 2013-10-22 11:12:08 <gmaxwell> (incompletely)
883 2013-10-22 11:12:19 <TD> yeah. supporting windows users isn't cool enough, apparently
884 2013-10-22 11:12:58 <jgarzik> well... it isn't.
885 2013-10-22 11:13:01 <petertodd> other than speed, which is being fixed, Armory is pretty damn good for advanced users - not so much incentive to do better than that.
886 2013-10-22 11:13:08 <CodeShark> I'm happy about getting my cross-build environment working :)
887 2013-10-22 11:13:11 <null> or they just assume everyone involved with bitcoin got rich enough to afford a decent computer :)
888 2013-10-22 11:13:13 <TD> the skew between users and developers is always going to be a problem that pushes people towards web wallets, unfortunately.
889 2013-10-22 11:13:25 <CodeShark> all my builds now work in windows and linux - and I've also made builds for mac, but I don't do them as often
890 2013-10-22 11:13:26 <TD> petertodd: how is it being fixed? i thought it still depended on bitcoin-qt
891 2013-10-22 11:13:31 <gmaxwell> petertodd: armory has a lot of room for improvement.
892 2013-10-22 11:14:06 <petertodd> TD: once the memory issues are fixed adding SPV/electrum is pretty easy
893 2013-10-22 11:14:11 <TD> the thing is, you could make a really awesome and very slick wallet using java, especially the new java 8 stuff. nice animated transitions, concise code with lambdas, etc
894 2013-10-22 11:14:14 <gmaxwell> TD: dunno if you've tried out electrum, but I think the user expirence is pretty excellent and is pretty competative with webwallets.
895 2013-10-22 11:14:25 <TD> well last time i tried electrum i thought its UI kind of sucked
896 2013-10-22 11:14:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: agreed
897 2013-10-22 11:14:29 <gmaxwell> (tried it out lately)
898 2013-10-22 11:14:36 <TD> also the windows version was a random installer GPG signed by a guy who called himself Animazing
899 2013-10-22 11:14:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: probably more secure in reality too
900 2013-10-22 11:14:43 <TD> but that was a while ago
901 2013-10-22 11:14:57 <TD> probably it's improved since then. but it definitely had the feel of a linux hackerish sort of app to it, im
902 2013-10-22 11:15:02 <TD> *imho
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904 2013-10-22 11:16:11 <gmaxwell> (otoh, multibit is nearly unusable for me... e.g. I can't _click on menu items_. due to stupid UI stuff, very circa 2000 java app quirks. :( )
905 2013-10-22 11:16:12 c0rw1n has joined
906 2013-10-22 11:16:34 <TD> what platform is that? i've used multibit on linux and mac, didn't have any issues there
907 2013-10-22 11:16:51 <petertodd> I gotta try amir's sx sometime; looks like uts UI might be rather good actually
908 2013-10-22 11:16:53 <TD> i mean the ui isn't beautiful, but it has worked fine
909 2013-10-22 11:17:15 <gmaxwell> TD: linux, some kind of weird window manager interaction. (this was one of the reasons I wanted to compile multibit, I assume I can just twiddle some property to fix it)
910 2013-10-22 11:17:25 <TD> oh, this is the unity stuff?
911 2013-10-22 11:17:46 <TD> menus are broken as crap for me on like half the apps i run, on the ubuntu we use internally
912 2013-10-22 11:17:50 <TD> it's not just java
913 2013-10-22 11:17:58 <TD> as far as i can tell they messed up almost anything that's not gtk
914 2013-10-22 11:18:10 <gmaxwell> No, xmonad, but I wouldn't be surprised if gnome3 and unity had problems too.
915 2013-10-22 11:18:36 crass has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
916 2013-10-22 11:18:49 <TD> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Xmonad/Frequently_asked_questions#Problems_with_Java_applications.2C_Applet_java_console
917 2013-10-22 11:19:29 <TD> apparently there's a magic environment variable you can set to tell the jvm your WM is "non-reparenting", whatever that means. they have a hard-coded list of WM's that behave that way but xmonad isn't on the list
918 2013-10-22 11:20:05 <gmaxwell> thanks. Will try.
919 2013-10-22 11:20:10 <TD> or just use java 7, according to the faq
920 2013-10-22 11:20:17 <TD> (which came out years ago, so i wonder if you just have a really old java)
921 2013-10-22 11:20:37 <TD> anyway, seems like that's an issue in their faq. hopefully it's an easy fix.
922 2013-10-22 11:20:47 <gmaxwell> TD: I'm using 1.7.
923 2013-10-22 11:20:51 <gmaxwell> sooo...
924 2013-10-22 11:21:29 <TD> "There are two classes of problems: blank, grey windows and windows that can't be focused for keyboard input. The latter should be fixed in the newest xmonad, so follow the instructions on the website for getting a copy of the darcs repository and build it. "
925 2013-10-22 11:21:30 <TD> ah
926 2013-10-22 11:21:45 <TD> i guess the java7 thing fixed some other issue. unfocusable/unclickable windows, sounds like maybe an issue in xmonad itself
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928 2013-10-22 11:22:04 <warren> <jgarzik> [23:25:49] warren, plausible, sure. But Red Hat Legal will take forever to do it...
929 2013-10-22 11:22:20 <warren> jgarzik: sure, which is why I suggested the problem will disappear within 20 years ...
930 2013-10-22 11:22:39 <gmaxwell> Not asking you to fix it in any case, it's just one of multiple quirks with the old java ui stuff on linux. Not even necessairly the apps fault but these things are so infrequently used they tend to be broken more often.
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932 2013-10-22 11:23:14 <CodeShark> I've never been able to build a java GUI that nicely integrates with the native environment
933 2013-10-22 11:23:38 <CodeShark> it will ALWAYS have some quirks on ALL systems
934 2013-10-22 11:24:35 <CodeShark> when I use something like Qt, on the other hand, nobody can tell whether or not I used the operating system's API directly
935 2013-10-22 11:25:35 <CodeShark> java GUIs, on the other hand, invariably look foreign
936 2013-10-22 11:26:09 <TD> heh, i've had the opposite experience
937 2013-10-22 11:26:14 <gmaxwell> looking foreign would be the smallest problem in any case.
938 2013-10-22 11:26:21 <TD> but it depends a lot on things like how the app is written or what versions of the libraries it uses
939 2013-10-22 11:26:26 <TD> basically java has 3 gui toolkits
940 2013-10-22 11:26:36 <gmaxwell> awt, swing, and whats the new thing called?
941 2013-10-22 11:26:40 <TD> javafx
942 2013-10-22 11:26:48 <TD> that's really, really new. it only got linux support around the middle of last year
943 2013-10-22 11:27:15 <TD> i played with it quite a bit lately. it's really nice. there's even a completely convincing OS X skin for it that uses the original apple artwork, and has extra widgets to make it fit in more
944 2013-10-22 11:27:38 <TD> you can replicate apple-provided GUIs completely, down to the pixel. on other platforms there's a quite nice and modern looking skin. basically it's what swing should have been.
945 2013-10-22 11:28:49 <TD> jim is planning to rewrite multibit to use it, as part of his general multibit rewrite ("multibit hd")
946 2013-10-22 11:30:20 <CodeShark> at least java GUIs have gotten a little more responsive in the last few years
947 2013-10-22 11:30:38 <TD> yeah. they focused on that a lot.
948 2013-10-22 11:30:47 <TD> actually jfx is fully 3D hardware composited and runs at 60fps
949 2013-10-22 11:31:10 <TD> as long as you don't do anything dumb like disk or network io on the UI thread, i haven't been able to make it stutter yet
950 2013-10-22 11:31:43 vitruvian has quit (Quit: "Dead =/")
951 2013-10-22 11:32:19 <TD> i put a video of a template app i wrote for contract apps here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h_1pM_phuc
952 2013-10-22 11:32:37 <TD> (it's only a few seconds long but you get the idea)
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965 2013-10-22 11:58:22 <petertodd> TD: pretty
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967 2013-10-22 11:58:47 <petertodd> TD: say, to clarify, so you seem to be the one with credit for the basic "txout" is an asset idea right?
968 2013-10-22 11:59:52 <TD> you mean the smart property thing? i don't remember who came up with that. i named it "smart property" and talked about using it with physical objects that interpret instructions encoded into a control output, and how to use that for collatoralised loans. later it got renamed/generalised to coloured coins.
969 2013-10-22 12:00:23 <TD> txout as an asset came out of a very productive time on the forums, iirc. i could easily have absorbed the idea from somewhere else and just got credit because i documented it/did public speaking
970 2013-10-22 12:00:39 handle_ has joined
971 2013-10-22 12:00:50 <petertodd> TD: hmm... well I'll reference you then. It's interesting doing an overview of this stuff, because there's a crazy amount of versions of this stuff and terminology out there.
972 2013-10-22 12:00:56 <TD> yeah
973 2013-10-22 12:01:02 <TD> exciting times :)
974 2013-10-22 12:01:29 <TD> lots of new ideas and concepts that need names
975 2013-10-22 12:01:32 <petertodd> TD: yup - enough exchanges have been shutdown that maybe this stuff will actually catch on for real :/
976 2013-10-22 12:01:48 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
977 2013-10-22 12:02:18 <TD> yeah, we'll see. i think it was justmoon who said that doing something decentralised always seems to be 100x harder than doing the same thing centralised
978 2013-10-22 12:02:32 <petertodd> I should just put NSA-style codenames for every idea in this paper of mine...
979 2013-10-22 12:02:43 mappum has joined
980 2013-10-22 12:02:49 MoRoSKiT has joined
981 2013-10-22 12:03:02 <TD> "then we use the protocol known as WALKINGRIVER"
982 2013-10-22 12:03:13 <petertodd> TD: yes, part of my intent is to give people a better "this is what you need to know" manual covering all the theory in one place
983 2013-10-22 12:03:21 <TD> that'd be great
984 2013-10-22 12:03:33 <petertodd> TD: well, that's also partly what the client asked for :P
985 2013-10-22 12:03:33 <TD> i'd love to see you publish a book on this actually, maybe with o'reilly
986 2013-10-22 12:03:42 <petertodd> that's what gmaxwell said...
987 2013-10-22 12:03:42 <TD> like, "Designing distributed financial protocols: a primer"
988 2013-10-22 12:03:59 <petertodd> Heck, I named it decentralized-consensus-systems on github.
989 2013-10-22 12:06:43 testnode9 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
990 2013-10-22 12:07:02 dlidstrom has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
991 2013-10-22 12:07:32 CodeShark has quit (Quit: Goodbye)
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993 2013-10-22 12:08:18 <TD> i have to admit, the direction people went with coloured coins never appealed to me much. most of those schemes seem to revolve around creating proxy assets, but handwaved the question of who would provide the peg.
994 2013-10-22 12:08:34 <TD> using tainted/tracked outputs to implement stocks or bonds seemed more useful
995 2013-10-22 12:08:57 <TD> in that for bitcoin to be a convincing alternative to the existing financial system, the issue of credit has to be tackled at some point
996 2013-10-22 12:09:29 <petertodd> yeah, focusing on pegged proxy assets is IMO nuts
997 2013-10-22 12:09:54 <petertodd> stocks/bonds have very real practical uses - like it or not keeping accurate ledgers isn't a core competancy of many companies
998 2013-10-22 12:10:50 <TD> right. the situation with bond clearing is amazing. doing more research into that and building it into a real case study for bitcoin's utility is somewhere deep down on my todo list
999 2013-10-22 12:11:17 vitruvian has joined
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1003 2013-10-22 12:12:26 <petertodd> bond clearing?
1004 2013-10-22 12:12:31 vitruvian has joined
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1006 2013-10-22 12:12:48 <TD> right, running the bond markets. the companies that actually track who owns what bonds
1007 2013-10-22 12:12:55 <TD> euroclear and friends
1008 2013-10-22 12:13:14 <TD> i talked with a guy who worked there once, he described how the system works. it's abysmal
1009 2013-10-22 12:13:31 <TD> clearance of trades is so slow they actually have insurance policies against the counterparty going bankrupt whilst a trade is in mid-flight
1010 2013-10-22 12:13:32 <petertodd> would punchcards be an improvement?
1011 2013-10-22 12:13:37 <petertodd> oh dear...
1012 2013-10-22 12:14:16 <TD> there's like a hierarchy of companies and brokers, and trades propagate up the tree and then back down again, sort of
1013 2013-10-22 12:14:35 <TD> it can take a long time for a trade to happen, and the enormous overheads involved are why only giant corporations and governments issue bonds
1014 2013-10-22 12:14:47 <TD> even if there were no securities regulations at all, it'd still be prohibitively expensive to issue bonds
1015 2013-10-22 12:14:56 <petertodd> ha brillant
1016 2013-10-22 12:15:36 vitruvian has joined
1017 2013-10-22 12:15:50 <petertodd> yeah, prior to decentralized consensus systems there weren't gret ways of using this stuff from the bottom up, but now that we have such systems, bootstrapping is doable
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1020 2013-10-22 12:16:29 <TD> this report is written in a quite amusing way: http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/settlementfails042011en.pdf
1021 2013-10-22 12:16:50 <TD> example quote: While a relatively low rate of fails can be considered âphysiologicalâ, high settlement fail
1022 2013-10-22 12:16:50 <TD> rates may result in âdaisy chainsâ (a cascading
1023 2013-10-22 12:16:50 <TD> chain of fails), which may degenerate into a âround robinâ
1024 2013-10-22 12:16:56 <TD> ugh, pdf copy/paste
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1026 2013-10-22 12:17:19 <TD> Under extreme circumstances, the whole settlement process may be seriously affected or impaired, unless corrective measures are taken to break the chain of fails
1027 2013-10-22 12:17:30 <c0rw1n> hm
1028 2013-10-22 12:17:33 <TD> i think any system in which you can describe it as having a "chain of fails" has to be meme-worthy
1029 2013-10-22 12:17:58 <petertodd> fucking hell... the very idea that these things can't go through fast enough to make that an exceptional case is crazy
1030 2013-10-22 12:18:53 <TD> "Fails may be determined by various circumstances: 1) Operational risk: due to un-matched instructions sent by participants (e.g. miscommunication between traders or mistakes in processing by back ofï¬ces), whereby automated systems will reject the instructions, hence impeding settlement completion on the settlement date.
1031 2013-10-22 12:19:26 <petertodd> TD: you know, what's interesting there is how one of my ideas re: scalability is to mine "pairs" of blockchains, thus validating two at a time, and assembing those pairs into graphs. (lets say a ring for a toy example) Now such a system would kinda suck and be annoying, yet it'd still be a zillion times better than so many of these banking systems. :(
1032 2013-10-22 12:19:42 <TD> hah
1033 2013-10-22 12:19:49 <TD> calling some of these setups "systems" is to flatter them
1034 2013-10-22 12:19:54 <petertodd> it'd be fun to figure out how much money is created out of thin-air by accident...
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1036 2013-10-22 12:20:23 <TD> banking screwups are a whole other world of pain. did you ever read about the RBS outage in the UK, a year or two ago?
1037 2013-10-22 12:21:01 <petertodd> no?
1038 2013-10-22 12:21:36 mrkent2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1039 2013-10-22 12:21:41 <TD> they outsourced all their IT backoffice operations to india and then fired or retired the guys who had been there for decades, basically. then a fwe years later they tried to do a software upgrade on their central mainframe
1040 2013-10-22 12:21:49 <TD> which failed. then the pain began
1041 2013-10-22 12:22:05 <TD> they discovered nobody left had any idea how the mainframe worked, how to maintain the software, or how to uncorrupt the now useless data files
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1043 2013-10-22 12:22:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3128
1044 2013-10-22 12:22:31 <TD> transactions started to back up. ATMs broke. wire transfers broke. everything broke. not just for one bank .... it turned out several of them had essentially merged whilst retaining their old brands
1045 2013-10-22 12:22:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Didn't that already happen?
1046 2013-10-22 12:22:50 <TD> so a lot of people in the UK were left without the ability to pay for things or receive money. and the outage went on for days, for some people, for weeks
1047 2013-10-22 12:22:58 <c0rw1n> yeah, TD's talking about an old fuckup in banks
1048 2013-10-22 12:23:16 <TD> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_RBS_computer_system_problems
1049 2013-10-22 12:23:31 <TD> "Completions of new home purchases were delayed,[9][10] and some people were stranded abroad.[11] Another account holder was threatened with the discontinuation of their life support machine in a Mexican hospital,[12] and one man was held in prison.[13"
1050 2013-10-22 12:23:32 <petertodd> also lovely
1051 2013-10-22 12:23:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Am I missing something? 3128 seems to already have happened in 2738
1052 2013-10-22 12:24:01 <petertodd> People don't understand how flimsy procedures actually are when not backed by cryptographic proof.
1053 2013-10-22 12:24:33 <TD> michagogo|cloud: i think OP_RETURN was made auto-prunable but not made standard
1054 2013-10-22 12:24:42 rdymac has joined
1055 2013-10-22 12:24:58 <petertodd> It'd be interesting to work how exactly how many copies of your financial data your average bank actually has...
1056 2013-10-22 12:25:08 <TD> i'm told it's usually at least 3
1057 2013-10-22 12:25:18 Musk has joined
1058 2013-10-22 12:25:22 <TD> one for the classical mainframe that reconciles transactions into a new daily ledger, for wire transfers and other things
1059 2013-10-22 12:25:24 <petertodd> TD: "usually even in different buildings!"
1060 2013-10-22 12:25:24 <TD> one for ATMs
1061 2013-10-22 12:25:25 saulimus has joined
1062 2013-10-22 12:25:28 <TD> and one for online banking
1063 2013-10-22 12:25:50 <petertodd> yeah, having backups on ATMs themselves in the form of paper has been very useful in the past I've heard
1064 2013-10-22 12:26:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|TD: Oh, I may have figured it out
1065 2013-10-22 12:26:40 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: note how 2738 includes the word "data" :)
1066 2013-10-22 12:26:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appe-
1067 2013-10-22 12:26:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|yeah
1068 2013-10-22 12:27:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|-ars that 2738 only makes OP_RETURN plus more data standard
1069 2013-10-22 12:27:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|while 3128 adds standardness for just a plain OP_RETURN
1070 2013-10-22 12:27:24 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: yup, and I corrected a minor bug
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1113 2013-10-22 14:16:31 <dobry-den> Anybody ever start working on their own client?
1114 2013-10-22 14:17:21 ValicekB has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1116 2013-10-22 14:19:49 <gmaxwell> dobry-den: why would you do that instead of contributing to one of the existing ones.
1117 2013-10-22 14:20:46 <dobry-den> gmaxwell: Right. - For the educational experience of it.
1118 2013-10-22 14:21:10 ValicekB has joined
1119 2013-10-22 14:21:52 <dobry-den> Bitcoin has some great concepts that are simple to model even with pseudocode.
1120 2013-10-22 14:22:30 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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1122 2013-10-22 14:22:53 <wumpus> making a client is easy, at least the network part... handling transaction validation correctly on the other hand is far from simple
1123 2013-10-22 14:23:30 <TD> educational experience .... i remember thinking like that once
1124 2013-10-22 14:23:32 <TD> many moons ago
1125 2013-10-22 14:23:43 <TD> back when i was young and had a spring in my step
1126 2013-10-22 14:24:04 <wumpus> hehe
1127 2013-10-22 14:24:07 <TD> now my back is arched and my beard is long and white. that's what trying to build a bitcoin client for educational purposes did to me. don't repeat my mistakes, young padawan!
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1129 2013-10-22 14:24:25 <sipa> Be mindful of the presence.
1130 2013-10-22 14:24:31 <wumpus> it has driven many people to madness
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1132 2013-10-22 14:28:12 <jakov> dobry-den: you can still learn a lot working on another client
1133 2013-10-22 14:28:17 <jakov> since you have read its entire sourcecode
1134 2013-10-22 14:28:39 <wumpus> and there are many skeletons of bitcoin implementations that were once started but abandoned because the author underestimated the work involved
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1136 2013-10-22 14:29:10 <gmaxwell> 07:21 < TD> educational experience .... i remember thinking like that once
1137 2013-10-22 14:29:11 * sipa pokes jgarzik: try my script!
1138 2013-10-22 14:29:24 <dobry-den> jakov: yeah - If it wasn't for bitcoinj and , I'd be pretty lost.
1139 2013-10-22 14:29:27 <gmaxwell> And did you write a IRC client, a fractal renderer, a ray tracer, or a mail client?
1140 2013-10-22 14:29:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: 3 of the above
1141 2013-10-22 14:29:47 <TD> emacs!
1142 2013-10-22 14:29:50 <dobry-den> haha
1143 2013-10-22 14:29:51 <TD> it did all of them
1144 2013-10-22 14:30:07 <gmaxwell> yea, I wrote two of the above, and an IRC bot which is kinda like an IRC client. :P
1145 2013-10-22 14:30:09 <dobry-den> IRC client isn't so bad :)
1146 2013-10-22 14:30:22 <TD> well that's understandable. eventually every app evolves to contain a mail client
1147 2013-10-22 14:30:25 <wumpus> only the fractal renderer and the ray tracer.. oh and an IRC server :P
1148 2013-10-22 14:30:25 <TD> even ray tracers
1149 2013-10-22 14:30:39 <gmaxwell> never did the email client, I think I'm too young for that. But I understand that was the learning expirence thing people did in the early 80s in some places.
1150 2013-10-22 14:30:40 <TD> i did write a mail client once, actually
1151 2013-10-22 14:30:53 <TD> i did it as a learning experience when i was a teenager, in the 90s
1152 2013-10-22 14:31:02 <dobry-den> Setting up my own mail server was gruesom enough for me
1153 2013-10-22 14:31:03 <TD> but perhaps i was wise beyond my years. or something.
1154 2013-10-22 14:31:18 <TD> it was written in ....... OBJECT PASCAL
1155 2013-10-22 14:31:24 <sipa> but did you write a mail client that interfaced via an IRC proxy, with support for nagivating 3D raytraced renderings of fractals?
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1158 2013-10-22 14:31:58 <Ry4an> TD: delphi or later borland?
1159 2013-10-22 14:31:59 <TD> no i had better things to do
1160 2013-10-22 14:32:01 <wumpus> hehe
1161 2013-10-22 14:32:10 <TD> like write video games
1162 2013-10-22 14:32:12 <jgarzik> sipa, hehe. I heartily approve of the idea of your script, but I am old school and like typing my git commands manually still. How many other than me use "git update-index file..." for example?
1163 2013-10-22 14:32:17 <TD> Ry4an: the mail client was delphi
1164 2013-10-22 14:32:20 <dobry-den> jakov: between pywallet, bitcoinj, gocoin - you can cover a lot of ground. i don't know c++ and find the client proper hard to follow.
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1166 2013-10-22 14:32:32 <TD> dobry-den: i DO know c++ and find the client proper hard to follow
1167 2013-10-22 14:32:38 <TD> so don't feel bad about that
1168 2013-10-22 14:32:42 * jgarzik learned C and Pascal from Wayne Bell's WWIV. That explains why my code all sucks.
1169 2013-10-22 14:33:02 <jgarzik> had to learn C, just to mod one's own BBS
1170 2013-10-22 14:33:14 <TD> BBS! you dinosaur
1171 2013-10-22 14:33:22 <Ry4an> I still have my wwiv 5 1/4" disk that he mailed to me w/ registration.
1172 2013-10-22 14:33:24 <TD> i was stuck on compuserve
1173 2013-10-22 14:33:26 <TD> (back then)
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1175 2013-10-22 14:33:32 <jgarzik> *shiver*
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1177 2013-10-22 14:33:49 <jgarzik> I was UUCP'ing before the internet was cool ;p
1178 2013-10-22 14:33:49 daybyter has joined
1179 2013-10-22 14:34:04 <TD> a service so amazing that the designers though the most user-friendly form of user address was a giant 10 digit number
1180 2013-10-22 14:34:14 <Ry4an> I'll bet I could dig up my registration #. I remember when applying .mod files I was completely unaware that 'patch' existed and that people didn't do that shit by hand int he real world.
1181 2013-10-22 14:34:16 <TD> hmm i wonder what protocol that reminds me of ....
1182 2013-10-22 14:34:23 <sipa> jgarzik: well feel free to type commands manually - i don't care, but i'd like to see gpg-signed merges that are reviewed by something else than github :)
1183 2013-10-22 14:34:41 <wumpus> I don't know why I learnt C at a certain point, probably because turbo pascal was starting to suck
1184 2013-10-22 14:34:50 <TD> and C wasn't?!
1185 2013-10-22 14:35:03 <sipa> I went from BASIC to Perl to C to Java to C++
1186 2013-10-22 14:35:04 newbie1 has joined
1187 2013-10-22 14:35:19 <sipa> no, wait, first C and then Perl
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1189 2013-10-22 14:35:21 <TD> i learned C exclusively to hack on Wine
1190 2013-10-22 14:35:23 <TD> iirc
1191 2013-10-22 14:35:28 <TD> now that was a steep learning curve
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1193 2013-10-22 14:35:34 <sipa> I learnt C++ exclusively to hack on Bitcoin :)
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1195 2013-10-22 14:35:48 <TD> hah. well, good one :)
1196 2013-10-22 14:36:08 <sipa> (though I knew the principles before from a class on comparing programming languages, I had never actually used it in practice)
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1198 2013-10-22 14:37:34 <dobry-den> I come from the side of web-development, starting with Ruby and now working with Clojure.
1199 2013-10-22 14:37:47 <TD> i think i found c++ to be fairly similar to object pascal, albiet with more of an emphasis on pointers and many more intriguing ways to shoot yourself in the foot
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1212 2013-10-22 14:51:38 <TD> sipa: going tonihgt?
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1226 2013-10-22 15:18:15 <sipa> TD: eh, i forgot about that
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1229 2013-10-22 15:18:21 <sipa> depends, we may have some team activity
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1231 2013-10-22 15:18:43 <sipa> hmm, 18:30, that may be too early
1232 2013-10-22 15:18:52 <TD> ok. i think i might skip today
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1266 2013-10-22 16:03:26 <skinnkavaj> "Make sure you control the address you are sending LTC from (Do Not Send From Exchanges)!"
1267 2013-10-22 16:03:30 <skinnkavaj> There is no send adress??
1268 2013-10-22 16:05:24 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1269 2013-10-22 16:07:01 <kuzetsa> skinnkavaj: it's a philisophical view held by some of the devs
1270 2013-10-22 16:07:28 <skinnkavaj> I am confused
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1274 2013-10-22 16:08:15 <TD> not really. there's no send address. however, you can approximate one sometimes, and due to the lack of the payment protocol a bunch of people do that
1275 2013-10-22 16:08:28 <kuzetsa> I don't agree with the idea "there is no from address", but I probably won't be able to change the mind of anyone
1276 2013-10-22 16:08:42 bbrian has joined
1277 2013-10-22 16:09:01 <kuzetsa> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankism <-- even if I wrote a patch that detects "most of the time" the send (from) address, it wouldn't change the minds of the people whose opinion "actually counts"
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1281 2013-10-22 16:12:44 <wumpus> it would at least be from *addresses*
1282 2013-10-22 16:15:23 <wumpus> if you enable -debug you can see all the inputs in bitcoin-qt transaction details, which includes the address (if appropriate)
1283 2013-10-22 16:16:02 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: whoever said that doesn't understand Bitcoin
1284 2013-10-22 16:16:21 patcon has joined
1285 2013-10-22 16:16:38 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it shouldn't. it's never appropriate.
1286 2013-10-22 16:16:54 <Luke-Jr> inputs don't have addresses
1287 2013-10-22 16:16:56 eoss has joined
1288 2013-10-22 16:17:15 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it's not something I've implemented, it's been the case ever since the satoshi client
1289 2013-10-22 16:17:23 GingerGeek has joined
1290 2013-10-22 16:17:37 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: not blaming anyone, just pointing it out
1291 2013-10-22 16:18:35 <wumpus> agree that it doesn't really make sense, that's why it's only visible with an obscure option, it's the same kind of info that blockchain.info (another "evil" site :p) shows
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1293 2013-10-22 16:23:10 <sipa> transaction inputs have a well-defined potential "previously sent to" address
1294 2013-10-22 16:23:17 <sipa> and coins are assigned to addresses usually
1295 2013-10-22 16:23:49 <sipa> the important part is that 1) this doesn't tell you who sent it or where you can send it back 2) it results in incorrect assumptions about the system, if you don't give the whole picture
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1299 2013-10-22 16:27:43 <sipa> whether you call it a "from address" is indeed philisophical, but i prefer doing so as it doesn't set wrong expectations
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1304 2013-10-22 16:29:07 <wumpus> right, if you show a from address, people expect to be able to use it to refund transactions
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1306 2013-10-22 16:29:40 <CodeShark> I'd prefer people got out of the habit of calling anything an "address" :p
1307 2013-10-22 16:29:51 <CodeShark> but that's wishing for too much
1308 2013-10-22 16:30:30 <wumpus> it should have been called differently, as the name "address" also makes people reuse it, but that ship has sailed
1309 2013-10-22 16:31:30 <CodeShark> "addresses" could refer to the identities used when using something like BIP0070
1310 2013-10-22 16:31:40 <CodeShark> not the individual scripts
1311 2013-10-22 16:33:04 <CodeShark> the individual script abstraction should be left as it is - you send bitcoins to a txoutscript
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1314 2013-10-22 16:33:30 <CodeShark> the txoutscript is owned by someone who might use a human-readable identifier called an "address"
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1316 2013-10-22 16:33:41 <CodeShark> which a higher level protocol uses to negotiate the txoutscript
1317 2013-10-22 16:34:49 <Luke-Jr> sipa: coins are assigned to BCScript pubkeys, some of which could be converted to an address to determine the "previously sent to", but which are not in themselves addresses ;)
1318 2013-10-22 16:35:16 <CodeShark> the sender shouldn't have to care at all about how the txoutscript is redeemed at all - simply, coins get sent to the txoutscript and it's up to the recipient to be able to redeem them later
1319 2013-10-22 16:35:17 <Belxjander> If I wrote my own "bitcoind" and "bitcoin-ui" ... would it be practical to stuff the daemon implimentation into a Shared Object to load once and hide access to it as Library calls?
1320 2013-10-22 16:35:44 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: let's rename addresses to "pointers"! :P
1321 2013-10-22 16:35:51 pr3d4t0r has joined
1322 2013-10-22 16:35:55 <pr3d4t0r> Greetings.
1323 2013-10-22 16:35:57 Curios_2 has joined
1324 2013-10-22 16:35:58 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: or "invoice id"
1325 2013-10-22 16:36:12 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: no
1326 2013-10-22 16:37:17 <CodeShark> let's just use txoutscripts at this level of abstraction and forget about trying to give it any higher level meaning :p
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1328 2013-10-22 16:37:44 <CodeShark> the transport should be agnostic about its specific meaning
1329 2013-10-22 16:37:52 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: I am just trying to think of how to impliment things on AmigaOS as a host for the few pieces I can wrap my head around without the obfuscation of C++ coding which I am lacking any references with
1330 2013-10-22 16:37:58 <CodeShark> the messaging layer really shouldn't care at all about what it represents
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1332 2013-10-22 16:38:36 <CodeShark> the only time we care about what it represents is when someone tries to redeem the coins
1333 2013-10-22 16:38:41 <wumpus> Belxjander: that's how it works now, except that the core is a static library instead of a dynamic library
1334 2013-10-22 16:39:02 <Belxjander> wumpus: the "libbitcoin" ?
1335 2013-10-22 16:39:20 <wumpus> yes
1336 2013-10-22 16:39:25 <Belxjander> wumpus: I'd be wanting to build a shared library for the central parts that all the programs need and handle interprocess messaging there as well
1337 2013-10-22 16:39:27 * Luke-Jr wonders if we should rename that so as to not conflict with the real libbitcoin
1338 2013-10-22 16:39:49 <wumpus> it could just as well be a shared library, but that brings some extra complexity on some platforms
1339 2013-10-22 16:39:51 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: perhaps you want to pick up the abandoned ZeroMQ patch
1340 2013-10-22 16:40:18 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: I need to get to grips and familiar with what is already there first...
1341 2013-10-22 16:40:47 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: not enough to build a GUI on top of, unless you interact with the internals
1342 2013-10-22 16:40:47 <Belxjander> and I find the C++ pretty much unreadable by default since I am only familiar with the C base elements of that language
1343 2013-10-22 16:40:51 <CodeShark> if txoutscript is too arcane a term, we could adopt something like "payment script"
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1345 2013-10-22 16:41:15 <CodeShark> "I need you to send me a payment script so I can send you some coins"
1346 2013-10-22 16:41:17 <wumpus> people complain about C++ too much
1347 2013-10-22 16:42:21 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: well I can build an AmigaOS "GUI" tool in pretty much an hour or two for my familiarity there... I just don't have a clue what specific BitCoin functions would need implimentation ... one item of concern for me is that I completely lack most dependencies that are currently used... and would need to impliment a shared library setup on AmigaOS anyway
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1349 2013-10-22 16:42:34 <Belxjander> to to account for multiple processes that share functions
1350 2013-10-22 16:42:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think we must name it libbitcoin because something else is named libbitcoin.
1351 2013-10-22 16:43:23 <Belxjander> AmigaOS libraries are unlike other DLL/.dylib/.so implimentations in that they are totally decoupled from the Application and can be used to host their own process entirely independent of the opening Application
1352 2013-10-22 16:44:07 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: you cannot share this library in any case. only one instance can run.
1353 2013-10-22 16:44:16 <Belxjander> wumpus: for me I am just unfamiliar with the language so it is hard to read
1354 2013-10-22 16:44:34 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: only one instance would run... that IS the point right ?
1355 2013-10-22 16:44:58 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: AmigaOS shared libraries are "load once" and I have a "single instance process" I can embed into one
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1357 2013-10-22 16:45:39 * Luke-Jr ponders if AmigaOS is/isn't Workbench
1358 2013-10-22 16:46:03 <wumpus> it's possible to run multiple instances but they each need a different datadir
1359 2013-10-22 16:46:09 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: Workbench is the default "Desktop Application" which is run out of the Workbench.Library provided by Kickstart ROM
1360 2013-10-22 16:46:35 <Belxjander> wumpus: well I can allow for that too if a Directory Path is given as a launch argument
1361 2013-10-22 16:46:48 <wumpus> and testnet/mainnet
1362 2013-10-22 16:47:11 <Belxjander> wumpus: how do they differ?
1363 2013-10-22 16:47:39 <wumpus> they don't differ much (on purpose), but testnet coins aren't worth anything
1364 2013-10-22 16:48:17 <Belxjander> so the "bitcoind" would need to have an entrypoint for process launch purposes..
1365 2013-10-22 16:48:25 <wumpus> and mining is easier for testnet, if no block has been mined for a while the difficulty goes back to 1
1366 2013-10-22 16:48:46 <Belxjander> okay well there is some kind of "signature" correct?
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1368 2013-10-22 16:48:58 <wumpus> yes
1369 2013-10-22 16:49:17 <Belxjander> wumpus: are you here a lot or only occasionally?
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1372 2013-10-22 16:49:52 <wumpus> Belxjander: I'm here a lot
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1406 2013-10-22 17:45:05 <petertodd> jgarzik: I was UUCP'ing after the internet was cool :(
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1412 2013-10-22 17:53:08 <kjj> petertodd: I remember when the BBSs in my area started getting UUCP mail
1413 2013-10-22 17:53:41 <gmaxwell> kjj: do you remember a bangpath email address for you?
1414 2013-10-22 17:53:54 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure I can find one I used if I go digging through really old data.
1415 2013-10-22 17:55:45 <kjj> no, DNS was well established by the time it made it out here
1416 2013-10-22 17:55:47 <gmaxwell> Does anyone have a guess at what coherent theory is underlying the complaints about the payment protocol. Evidence suggests to me that people believe some really weird stuff, but I'm not able to figure out what they believe.
1417 2013-10-22 17:56:11 <sipa> What are the complaints?
1418 2013-10-22 17:56:43 <kjj> gmaxwell: same complaints that come up about everything, all vague and formless
1419 2013-10-22 17:57:16 <gmaxwell> "I will be agonisingly clear. The recipient of a payments request has no way of knowing that a request will be initiated, unless they analyse the code behind every event triggering piece of interface on every payments form on every website they use, every time they use it. The website can choose various ways of utilising the Payments Protocol, for instance using the CA or self-signing. This is all a consequence of the directionality of ...
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1421 2013-10-22 17:57:22 <gmaxwell> ... the request itself. Logically, it can only ever come from the requester. Payee will never request payment from themselves using the Payments Protocol."
1422 2013-10-22 17:57:25 <gmaxwell> "
1423 2013-10-22 17:57:28 <gmaxwell> Therefore I cannot know whether my personal details are to be signed by a CA until after the event has taken place. This is a concern. If you are saying that this is not a correct description, and that the message is communicated directly between user and merchant using SSL, then please be more explicit in confirming this."
1424 2013-10-22 17:57:38 <kjj> for the last year or two, pretty much every change has involved a lunatic group showing up claiming that whatever the current topic is will kill bitcoin, centralize it and pour sugar in the gas tanks of their cars
1425 2013-10-22 17:58:56 <sipa> i have no clue
1426 2013-10-22 17:59:01 <sipa> what he's saying
1427 2013-10-22 17:59:07 <kjj> your quoted message is a great example. so much confusion there that I don't even know where to start
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1429 2013-10-22 17:59:24 <kjj> but someone has put the fear of god into that person
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1432 2013-10-22 18:00:09 <k9quaint> I have a vague and formless complaint, mostly its about gmaxwell's waistline
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1434 2013-10-22 18:00:27 <sipa> indeed vague and formless
1435 2013-10-22 18:00:54 <k9quaint> clearly, the payments protocol, when used to order fried chicken, is at fault
1436 2013-10-22 18:01:59 <gmaxwell> I've thought that in other places that particular person hasn't been that unreasonable either.
1437 2013-10-22 18:02:25 <gmaxwell> There are a bunch of people in the threat who I can't make sense of, but several of them are regulars who complain loudly and violently on matters I can't make sense of.
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1440 2013-10-22 18:03:07 <Someguy123> so, what's the best way to handle "instant deposits" with bitcoin?
1441 2013-10-22 18:03:07 <k9quaint> require them to submit their complaints in handwriting on 80 weight glossy paper
1442 2013-10-22 18:03:11 <kjj> one somewhat plausible theory is that someone (or ones) is trying to slow development to keep the price low so they can buy more
1443 2013-10-22 18:03:44 <k9quaint> Someguy123: define instant?
1444 2013-10-22 18:04:03 <kjj> Someguy123: while you are at it, define "deposit"
1445 2013-10-22 18:04:22 * k9quaint deposits some coffee into his cup
1446 2013-10-22 18:04:26 <Someguy123> k9quaint, i.e. show up on a web application within a minute or so automatically
1447 2013-10-22 18:04:42 <kjj> Someguy123: search the forums for "walletnotify"
1448 2013-10-22 18:05:10 <k9quaint> kjj stole my thunder, plus he probably actually knows the answer
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1450 2013-10-22 18:06:17 <kjj> there is a simple way that is really easy, and a complicated way that scales well. at least one thread goes into sufficient detail to set up either option
1451 2013-10-22 18:07:07 <petertodd> Someguy123: to be clear, knowing someone paid you != the payment going through, especially these days
1452 2013-10-22 18:07:21 <Someguy123> walletnotify seems perfect
1453 2013-10-22 18:07:46 <Someguy123> petertodd, I know. but I'm building a service which needs high speed transactions, even at a risk.
1454 2013-10-22 18:08:15 <Someguy123> I know the whole risk of doublespend attacks
1455 2013-10-22 18:08:41 <petertodd> Someguy123: well, just keep in mind it's not so much a risk as "if someone wants to they can pretty easily"
1456 2013-10-22 18:09:27 <petertodd> Someguy123: I suspect part of the reason why blockchain.info is going to coinjoin for their send-shared service is double-spends
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1460 2013-10-22 18:22:49 <gmaxwell> I think piotr_n has the only sane complaint in the threadâ that it means a bitcoin wallet app in the future will need an x509 implementation that it wouldn't otherwise need.
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1462 2013-10-22 18:23:12 <gmaxwell> Which is something I'm pretty sure I pointed out previously too, but .. meh.
1463 2013-10-22 18:23:32 <kjj> I think that for the most part, we've already made the decision on that trade off
1464 2013-10-22 18:24:18 <kjj> we need PKI. we can either use the PKI that everyone already has, or we can make our own. not a hard choice to make
1465 2013-10-22 18:25:08 <petertodd> kjj: yup, and PKI is only useful if the same PKI was used to visit the vendors website...
1466 2013-10-22 18:25:17 <gmaxwell> perhaps openpgp would have been easier, but I don't actually think so.
1467 2013-10-22 18:25:19 <sipa> having payment requests carry a session public key, and use that for further encryption/signing
1468 2013-10-22 18:25:35 <gmaxwell> petertodd: not strictly, though I agree that helps.
1469 2013-10-22 18:25:36 <sipa> then all is moved to acquiring the payment request in a secure way initially
1470 2013-10-22 18:25:44 <sipa> which you could use a PKI for, but also any other method
1471 2013-10-22 18:25:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: no, needs non-repudiation.
1472 2013-10-22 18:26:00 <kjj> well, one could argue that the current PKI used by the website sucks and we need something better. but that compounds our problem, we don't just need to make our own PKI, we also need to convince the world that they should use it too
1473 2013-10-22 18:26:03 <gmaxwell> (the request does)
1474 2013-10-22 18:26:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: it's hard enough to design a separate PKI system that really works that I'll say doing that is pretty much mandatory
1475 2013-10-22 18:26:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: but agreed, in theory...
1476 2013-10-22 18:26:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm?
1477 2013-10-22 18:27:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: we sign the payment requests so the merchant can't claim "oh no, I never said I'd send you four widgets if you paid address 1apple. 1apple isn't my address at all."
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1479 2013-10-22 18:27:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, absoluetely
1480 2013-10-22 18:27:35 <Ry4an> existing PKI gets a lot better if certficate-pinning is supported
1481 2013-10-22 18:27:39 <petertodd> kjj: heh, you know one crazy thing we could do is embed the cert fingerprint used in the payment in a marked nulldata output and scan the blockchain for such outputs to establish trusthworthyness :P
1482 2013-10-22 18:27:44 <sipa> i'm just saying that having a session key reduces the problem to only acquiring the payment request in a secure way
1483 2013-10-22 18:27:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh I see.
1484 2013-10-22 18:27:59 <sipa> you still want the SSL PKI for that in practice, when paying online
1485 2013-10-22 18:28:14 <kjj> petertodd: abuse of the blockchain certainly COULD be helpful
1486 2013-10-22 18:28:28 <petertodd> sipa: session key doesn't help with multi-factor-wallets though
1487 2013-10-22 18:28:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: but the problem is SSL doesn't provide non-repudation. So if you only get a payment request (without x509 internally) the merchant can back out of the deal.
1488 2013-10-22 18:28:47 <sipa> hmm, right
1489 2013-10-22 18:29:00 <petertodd> kjj: nulldata is in the reference client therefore it can't be abuse :/
1490 2013-10-22 18:29:23 <petertodd> kjj: though seriously, if someone can come up with a way of doing that *and* preserving privacy, that'd be seriously cool
1491 2013-10-22 18:29:30 <sipa> petertodd: not sure whether you're serious or not, but i still consider that abusive
1492 2013-10-22 18:29:46 <petertodd> sipa: from bad ideas spring forth good ones :)
1493 2013-10-22 18:29:50 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well, meh. Pay to contract is the more bitcoin way to solve the non-repudiation problem.
1494 2013-10-22 18:30:08 <kjj> it may not be abuse in the "code allows it" sense, but it certainly is in the platonic sense
1495 2013-10-22 18:30:47 <kjj> in other words, Lessig may be fooled, but Stallman isn't
1496 2013-10-22 18:30:47 <petertodd> gmaxwell: agreed, although pay-to-contract in timo's ECC version has the ugly issue that you need wallet backups to happen right after the payment
1497 2013-10-22 18:31:24 <petertodd> kjj
1498 2013-10-22 18:31:48 <gmaxwell> I do not like pay to contract as much as I should purely because it only works with signature systems that are based on trapdoor permutations which are additively homorphic.
1499 2013-10-22 18:31:49 <petertodd> kjj: personally I don't believe in calling this stuff "abuse" - I do believe in calling it inefficient and probably unscalable
1500 2013-10-22 18:32:06 <kjj> and for the record, I feel pretty strongly that SSL has got to go. Despite worldwide adoption, it isn't suitable for use. I just don't think that this is necessarily the right context for replacing it
1501 2013-10-22 18:32:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I don't think thats so bad, as both the sender and reciver should have the contract.
1502 2013-10-22 18:32:32 <gmaxwell> (at least if you have a three phase protocol)
1503 2013-10-22 18:32:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, doing pay to contract with separate metadata is way less cool, but probably saner. At least you could use a merkle tree in theory to do it w/ coinjoin.
1504 2013-10-22 18:32:52 <gmaxwell> kjj: ssl is pretty terrible.
1505 2013-10-22 18:33:22 <gmaxwell> kjj: I should probably go get a cert for bitcoin.org all on my own to demonstrate this.
1506 2013-10-22 18:33:24 <kjj> gmaxwell: but so much better than anything else. :(
1507 2013-10-22 18:33:36 <gmaxwell> kjj: yep.
1508 2013-10-22 18:33:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, but then you need ugly and almost certainely manual ways of getting the contract back
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1511 2013-10-22 18:34:04 <petertodd> gmaxwell: please do
1512 2013-10-22 18:34:14 <kjj> I use a SSL provider that actually cares about the security model and they check the info I send them and do extra verification. doesn't matter because no one else does.
1513 2013-10-22 18:34:37 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the other thing you could do with pay2contract is pay to 1 of 2 multisig with the contract in one and a refund in the other. Redeeming the payment is acceptance. If you lose the contract, oh well.
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1516 2013-10-22 18:35:25 <gmaxwell> kjj: yea e.g. I know godaddy does absolutely nothing but fetch ... via _http_ a file off a webserver on the domain in question. (they pick a filename and you have to put it under the root)
1517 2013-10-22 18:35:27 <kjj> oh hey... considering how bad SSL's PKI is, do we really think that using it for payment requests would stand up in court?
1518 2013-10-22 18:36:07 <Ry4an> courts assume that silly processes are _more_ effective than they are not less :)
1519 2013-10-22 18:36:25 <gmaxwell> kjj: I do, civil court != criminal court, though you'd want some additional evidence. Even though the CA model sucks, no compromise of it would result in it being signed with the same exact key you normally use, for example.
1520 2013-10-22 18:36:45 <kjj> Ry4an: true, but you can hardly swing a cat on the internet without finding tons of pages about how bad SSL is, and in particular how bad the PKI is
1521 2013-10-22 18:37:10 <gmaxwell> kjj: the payment request is what gets you the subpona for disk images of their servers, for example.
1522 2013-10-22 18:37:20 <helo> what would an ideal model look like?
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1524 2013-10-22 18:37:31 <kjj> gmaxwell: you could do discovery and find out if the key that signed your contract is the key they normally use
1525 2013-10-22 18:37:44 <gmaxwell> yep. thats right. Then any CA problem is gone.
1526 2013-10-22 18:37:55 <gmaxwell> They could only claim that they were compromised.
1527 2013-10-22 18:38:02 <kjj> but in the reverse case, a contract signed by a different key doesn't tell anyone anything
1528 2013-10-22 18:38:11 <Ry4an> kjj: the US supreme court is filled with people who have never sent an email, and it's turtles all the way down :)
1529 2013-10-22 18:38:30 <petertodd> Alright, official 1BTC reward for anyone who can prove to me that they have a SSL cert for bitcoin.org, provided they shouldn't be in possession of that cert: http://0bin.net/paste/zbHH0Uieh3SAPeNp#wyLRuwPazR4Ksrw80LD55VIrx9m8qVbBsp5Utrjtsyo=
1530 2013-10-22 18:38:39 <gmaxwell> Ry4an: dunno if you've read many supreme court rulings. These people are not stupid.
1531 2013-10-22 18:38:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that's pretty reasonable
1532 2013-10-22 18:38:59 <kjj> they just operate in a framework that makes them sound stupid to laymen
1533 2013-10-22 18:39:14 <petertodd> gmaxwell: though would require a bunch of additional stuff inthe payment protocol :(
1534 2013-10-22 18:39:36 <gmaxwell> kjj: if you go read the rulings you will not think they are stupid.
1535 2013-10-22 18:40:03 <kjj> I read a couple each year. slogging through Roberts' opinion on the ACA was painful
1536 2013-10-22 18:40:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: what would? oh the pay to contract stuff? yea. payment protocol doesn't facilitate pay to contract.
1537 2013-10-22 18:40:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup, and it'd be a lot of complexity for multi-factor wallets :(
1538 2013-10-22 18:40:41 <gmaxwell> I'm behind, I was reading all of them (well, at least the first part.. some are just too boring to read all of)
1539 2013-10-22 18:41:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well, OP_IF and p2sh.
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1541 2013-10-22 18:41:17 <kjj> after having read that one, I can tell with 100% certainty that no reporter has ever read it, based on the stupid things they say about that decision
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1543 2013-10-22 18:41:32 <petertodd> gmaxwell: no, I mean how you'd want things like hardware wallets to show what contract was being signed
1544 2013-10-22 18:41:47 <gmaxwell> kjj: yea thats basically why I started reading them, because I read one and realized that the reporters were clearly not reading them.
1545 2013-10-22 18:42:18 <gmaxwell> kjj: and they're very interesting, even ones on subjects I normally don't care much about.
1546 2013-10-22 18:42:19 <kjj> anyhow, what I was trying to get at is that using SSL's PKI means that when there is a failure, it tends to be a double failure
1547 2013-10-22 18:42:51 <Ry4an> gmaxwell: I'm amazed by the intellects shown there, but the law (and the US SC) is all about "what's the old thing that's most like this new thing" that only gets you so far.
1548 2013-10-22 18:42:58 <kjj> gmaxwell: always reminds me of Feynman talking about arguing with the Jews.
1549 2013-10-22 18:43:14 <gmaxwell> Kat went to see in re bilski, I was never able to make it in. But the orals aren't really as interesting as the rulings.
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1554 2013-10-22 18:46:19 <kjj> I've seen a few orals. you need to be very well prepared even to watch them
1555 2013-10-22 18:47:46 <kjj> I was expecting a discussion that could be followed, but it isn't like that at all. more random access than sequential, but once you catch on you can start to predict where things are going next
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1563 2013-10-22 18:58:19 <gmaxwell> I've listened recordings of a few. What strikes me is that it's not _that_ uncommon for a justice to be asking a question that the responding attorney just doesn't get. I wonder if the stress of being in front of the supreme court lowers their IQ by 20 points.
1564 2013-10-22 18:58:27 crass has joined
1565 2013-10-22 18:58:33 <gmaxwell> erk. this is way offtopic. :P
1566 2013-10-22 18:58:51 Diapolo has joined
1567 2013-10-22 18:58:51 <kjj> meh. nothing is off topic when the on topic discussion is dead
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1569 2013-10-22 19:02:56 <warren> gmaxwell: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1021898 perhaps repost the same message here? the other ticket was closed
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1572 2013-10-22 19:03:47 <gmaxwell> kjj: scrollback
1573 2013-10-22 19:03:59 <gmaxwell> (some people, myself included, try to read 100% of what is said in here)
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1580 2013-10-22 19:12:13 <pigeons> seems pretty funny that after all the recent news, fedora would choses to only include NIST reccomended crypto
1581 2013-10-22 19:13:16 <gmaxwell> pigeons: thats what they were doing in RHEL even before the recent news, so less funny in that context.
1582 2013-10-22 19:14:00 <gmaxwell> Though the funnyness of that did not escape me, and which is why I kept calling out specifically in my comments that they were using only NIST approved curves. :P
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1605 2013-10-22 19:53:31 <edcba> it's a long time since news of bitcoin having parity with dollar :)
1606 2013-10-22 19:53:38 atian has joined
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1610 2013-10-22 19:55:26 <melvster> what exactly does 'longest chain wins' mean ... is it number of blocks or longest proof of work?
1611 2013-10-22 19:55:59 <CodeShark> most work
1612 2013-10-22 19:56:09 <CodeShark> the latter
1613 2013-10-22 19:56:23 <CodeShark> "the most difficult chain" would be a better wording
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1615 2013-10-22 19:56:52 <melvster> thanks!
1616 2013-10-22 19:57:18 <jegz> is there a standard for how to setup data in a qr code? is it just the address? or is a "bitcoin uri" expected?
1617 2013-10-22 19:57:20 <melvster> maybe that's why satoshi made the first block so hard
1618 2013-10-22 19:57:35 <CodeShark> but since the target is only adjusted about every two weeks, the two criteria are almost the same most of the time
1619 2013-10-22 19:58:52 <melvster> assuming a connected net yes
1620 2013-10-22 19:59:08 <melvster> there could be a machine running elsewhere in isolation right?
1621 2013-10-22 19:59:39 <CodeShark> sure - in which case when the two networks merge one will suffer a major reorg
1622 2013-10-22 19:59:44 <Scrat> jegz: bitcoin:address
1623 2013-10-22 19:59:58 <melvster> got it
1624 2013-10-22 20:00:09 <melvster> lol that's be chaotic!
1625 2013-10-22 20:00:10 <jegz> Scrat: ok so it is the bitcoin URI essentially? like I can add amount, label and message?
1626 2013-10-22 20:00:32 <Scrat> jegz: yes
1627 2013-10-22 20:00:37 <jegz> thanks Scrat
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1632 2013-10-22 20:13:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: how do you define who should be in possession of the cert?
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1636 2013-10-22 20:19:14 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: good question!
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1638 2013-10-22 20:19:35 <Luke-Jr> melvster: the first block was difficulty 1
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1640 2013-10-22 20:24:02 <melvster> Luke-Jr: ah interesting, but weren't there extra 0's in there?
1641 2013-10-22 20:24:51 <warren> gmaxwell: testing uncrippled openssl RPMS, will post when done
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1643 2013-10-22 20:27:36 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: "reasonably". Basically ask the question: could it be used to defraud someone?
1644 2013-10-22 20:28:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The answer is always "yes"
1645 2013-10-22 20:28:23 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: Or really, here's a better definition: did you get it using a process that someone who *shouldn't* have had it could have used?
1646 2013-10-22 20:28:24 ovidiusoft has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1647 2013-10-22 20:28:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Jeff Bezos could use the Amazon.com SSL cert to defraud people, if he so chooses
1648 2013-10-22 20:28:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Again, define "shouldn't"
1649 2013-10-22 20:28:56 <petertodd> Right, but he's someone who is understood to have that capability, and is expected too.
1650 2013-10-22 20:29:06 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1651 2013-10-22 20:29:14 <warren> some businesses are more profitable than fraud
1652 2013-10-22 20:29:37 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1653 2013-10-22 20:30:16 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: ask yourself the question: is peter going to say "Cool! Nice hack!" or "It's not surprising that Gavin Andresen/Jeff Garzik/etc. was able to get a cert using their own name after some social engineering."
1654 2013-10-22 20:30:19 <Luke-Jr> melvster: irrelevant
1655 2013-10-22 20:30:29 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well I think that excludes me getting it, for example. But no point in a bounty for that because it's pretty unambigious that I could get it to anyone who has ever gotten a cert before.
1656 2013-10-22 20:30:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Right, but if your partner is the one who's name was on the invocie, that's totally ok by me.
1657 2013-10-22 20:31:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For example, would it count if one were to gain access to the github account credentials or SSH key of someone with push access to the bitcoin.org repo?
1658 2013-10-22 20:31:16 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: through hacking, yes
1659 2013-10-22 20:31:25 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: if those are credentials you normally have, no
1660 2013-10-22 20:31:28 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: anyone that has push access to that repo can get one in under an hour.
1661 2013-10-22 20:31:44 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: does the invocie need to give you the private key? :p
1662 2013-10-22 20:31:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: I know
1663 2013-10-22 20:32:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also: how do you define an SSL certificate?
1664 2013-10-22 20:32:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Your PGP-signed message was very broad...
1665 2013-10-22 20:32:31 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: Would a reasonable implementation using standard SSL cert lists be fooled?
1666 2013-10-22 20:32:37 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: That was very intentional...
1667 2013-10-22 20:32:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well
1668 2013-10-22 20:32:53 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: lol, though timestamping it all isn't a bad idea!
1669 2013-10-22 20:33:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anyone can get any ssl certificate they want
1670 2013-10-22 20:33:09 Coincidental has joined
1671 2013-10-22 20:33:13 <gmaxwell> the obvious thing to do is to try to trick saivann with a pull request that changes some boring stuff and adds the nonce file needed to get the cert.
1672 2013-10-22 20:33:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Just create a local CA :-P
1673 2013-10-22 20:33:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Do that and I'll count it.
1674 2013-10-22 20:33:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Even if it's by you.
1675 2013-10-22 20:33:40 <gmaxwell> But I actually expect that you can't trick him like that.
1676 2013-10-22 20:33:58 <petertodd> saivann: Don't let gmaxwell fool you! My money is on the line! :P
1677 2013-10-22 20:34:05 <gmaxwell> Based on his reasonable handing of my pgp key update, I don't know that _I_ could trick him like that.
1678 2013-10-22 20:34:28 <Luke-Jr> personally, I'd be targetting sirius
1679 2013-10-22 20:34:30 AusBitBank has joined
1680 2013-10-22 20:34:31 <gmaxwell> though IIRC from the godaddy nonces there was nothing in the file that said what it was.
1681 2013-10-22 20:34:45 <Luke-Jr> throw up a complete mirror site, convince sirius we're moving off github
1682 2013-10-22 20:34:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: that's very good to hear!
1683 2013-10-22 20:35:18 <gmaxwell> e.g. it was some file names something like request_182398123.txt and inside was just some hex or something like that.
1684 2013-10-22 20:35:30 <gmaxwell> unless I'm misremembering.
1685 2013-10-22 20:35:38 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: hey, do something cool enough re: social engineering and I'd probably pay out no matter who you were :)
1686 2013-10-22 20:36:07 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you don't need sirius' help though. You just need write access to bitcoin.org/"Ca picked filename.txt"
1687 2013-10-22 20:36:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: easier to point bitcoin.org at a server I control IMO
1688 2013-10-22 20:36:41 <gmaxwell> or the ability to spoof http for the CA.
1689 2013-10-22 20:36:55 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: oh, I see what you mean, yea, move the domain.
1690 2013-10-22 20:37:15 <petertodd> DNS spoofing tricks would be awesome
1691 2013-10-22 20:37:30 <petertodd> and for the record it's totally ok if the cert gets revoked immediately after or something
1692 2013-10-22 20:37:31 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: any CA that falls for that would lose credibility IMO :P
1693 2013-10-22 20:37:39 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: damn right they should!
1694 2013-10-22 20:37:42 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: is it okay if the CA gets revoked? ;)
1695 2013-10-22 20:37:42 <kjj> no, don't spoof DNS. I can't bear to hear Kaminsky going off on that again
1696 2013-10-22 20:37:51 crass has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1697 2013-10-22 20:38:03 <petertodd> just tell me first so I can buy some namecoins...
1698 2013-10-22 20:38:10 <jgarzik> I wonder how much dakami will owe me, USD-wise, when he loses the 10 BTC bet to me.
1699 2013-10-22 20:38:13 <jgarzik> ?
1700 2013-10-22 20:38:25 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: oh, he actually made the bet? :O
1701 2013-10-22 20:38:35 <Luke-Jr> I thought he chickened out
1702 2013-10-22 20:38:47 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, Never affirmatively committed to it
1703 2013-10-22 20:39:06 <gmaxwell> what the hekc is Name Server:DNS1.LOUHI.NET
1704 2013-10-22 20:39:14 crass has joined
1705 2013-10-22 20:39:23 <petertodd> jgarzik: damn, you're either incentivizing that 1337 H@X0R to either destroy bitcoin through his H@X1NG skillz, or the US dollar...
1706 2013-10-22 20:39:39 elevatioN has joined
1707 2013-10-22 20:41:39 <saivann> If you plan to collude against me, I suggest you not to inform me about your plans to get a higher chance to succeed :)
1708 2013-10-22 20:41:49 <Luke-Jr> lol
1709 2013-10-22 20:41:58 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
1710 2013-10-22 20:42:38 <petertodd> saivann: I'm the one paying out 1BTC if someone succeeds, so I want the hack to be as impressive as possible. :)
1711 2013-10-22 20:42:45 Grouver has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!)
1712 2013-10-22 20:42:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: email sirius "from" Gavin's email address, asking him to point the domain at a reasonably-looking IP ;)
1713 2013-10-22 20:43:10 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1714 2013-10-22 20:43:23 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: that's a good one!
1715 2013-10-22 20:43:42 patcon has joined
1716 2013-10-22 20:44:55 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: your bounty has a problem
1717 2013-10-22 20:45:06 <saivann> sirius does not answer very often. TD suggested that bitcoin.org would be in better hands if it was transfered to active core developers and I agree. If there was anything wrong with GitHub or the DNS, bitcoin.org could be down for a long period of time without his actions
1718 2013-10-22 20:45:11 <Luke-Jr> I don't see any way to attempt it without violating a law somewhere
1719 2013-10-22 20:45:41 taha has joined
1720 2013-10-22 20:45:54 <gmaxwell> oh saivann was actually here? darn. :P
1721 2013-10-22 20:46:00 taha has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1722 2013-10-22 20:46:01 [\\\]_i is now known as [\\\]
1723 2013-10-22 20:46:06 <saivann> :)
1724 2013-10-22 20:46:10 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: he always is :p
1725 2013-10-22 20:46:36 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Ah, but you see, if you are someone who would be within their right to have a SSL cert for bitcoin.org, but get one issued in a way that could have been just as easily done by someone who didn't, you *do* get the reward. Just document how you did it and convince me that's really what you did.
1726 2013-10-22 20:47:04 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: everyone has an equal right to have a SSL cert for bitcoin.org, except sirius
1727 2013-10-22 20:47:11 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1728 2013-10-22 20:47:29 <gmaxwell> I tried to tab complete him first, but I must have failed.
1729 2013-10-22 20:48:01 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1730 2013-10-22 20:48:12 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I don't think it would be shocking if anyone who has unimpeded commit access to the site got it.
1731 2013-10-22 20:48:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: correct, that's too easy
1732 2013-10-22 20:50:23 ColinT has joined
1733 2013-10-22 20:50:25 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1734 2013-10-22 20:50:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: e.g. if you have a way to do it, I can generate the certificate request and you can use that one. On the basis that I'm a "rightful" party to have it, it wouldn't be patently-on-its-face-wrong but if you get the request through it would meet PT's requirement.
1735 2013-10-22 20:50:41 <gmaxwell> I guess thats why you asked if you had to have the private key.
1736 2013-10-22 20:51:22 <petertodd> yeah, feel free to do stuff like that to stay on the right side of the law
1737 2013-10-22 20:51:25 <Luke-Jr> actually, I asked if we had to give it to petertodd :p
1738 2013-10-22 20:51:53 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: oh heck no, prove it was assigned wrongfully is all I want
1739 2013-10-22 20:52:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't consider you (or anyone else here) to be any more a "rightful party" than agent462 in #bitcoin
1740 2013-10-22 20:52:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: do you consider sirus a rightful party?
1741 2013-10-22 20:52:19 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: if someone sent me that the first thing I'd do is google "how to revoke a certificate" :/
1742 2013-10-22 20:52:28 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, because there's actually a distinction therre
1743 2013-10-22 20:52:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: does he have a published gpg key with an rsa part between 2048 and 4096 bits?
1744 2013-10-22 20:52:42 <Luke-Jr> dunno
1745 2013-10-22 20:52:46 <petertodd> Anyway, remember, I'm interested in a nice example of how SSL CA's suck mainly, so keep that in mind.
1746 2013-10-22 20:52:54 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if he does you can pull out his rsa public key and stick it in a cert.
1747 2013-10-22 20:53:11 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1748 2013-10-22 20:53:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: good idea!
1749 2013-10-22 20:53:22 <gmaxwell> actually by peter's terms ... just use a nothing up my sleeve number.
1750 2013-10-22 20:53:29 <kuzetsa> I'm a little vague on this phrase "ssl cert" being thrown around... is this the same thing as an x509 cert?
1751 2013-10-22 20:53:35 <petertodd> Too bad satoshi's key doesn't work. :(
1752 2013-10-22 20:53:35 <Luke-Jr> my point is that you'd be committing fraud to the CA :p
1753 2013-10-22 20:53:45 <petertodd> kuzetsa: yeah, the type that browsers expect
1754 2013-10-22 20:53:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea maybe, depends on how you do it.
1755 2013-10-22 20:54:45 <kuzetsa> thanks petertodd, I wasn't certain
1756 2013-10-22 20:54:52 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: in this case an x509 cert with the cn/etc set up in a way that will make webbrowsers happy for ssl.
1757 2013-10-22 20:55:25 <kuzetsa> I hadn't looked lately, but now I'm curious is these x509 certs are also valid for code signing bitcoin binaries via microsoft's authenticode mechanism
1758 2013-10-22 20:57:23 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: iirc it needs to have extra flags on it.
1759 2013-10-22 21:00:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: does it count if I make a CA and say "install this certificate before you check the validity of this ssl cert"?
1760 2013-10-22 21:01:24 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: heck no, boring
1761 2013-10-22 21:01:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Some users are dumb enough to blindly do that)
1762 2013-10-22 21:01:30 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: nah. doesn't serve the purpose of making it clear that the CA infrastrcuture is insecure.
1763 2013-10-22 21:01:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I was kinda kidding :-P
1764 2013-10-22 21:01:48 <gmaxwell> even if you could convince me that jrandomuser would click, we can't convince jrandomuser of that.
1765 2013-10-22 21:01:54 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: do that and I'll give you your 1BTC in the form of a signed transaction with an invalid txin :P
1766 2013-10-22 21:02:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lol
1767 2013-10-22 21:02:04 <gmaxwell> hahah
1768 2013-10-22 21:02:11 gangplank has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
1769 2013-10-22 21:02:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Except that there's no way to make a dumb user think that's valid :-P
1770 2013-10-22 21:03:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Since they're not going to be looking at the raw transaction -- it'll just not show up in their wallet)
1771 2013-10-22 21:03:20 <petertodd> michagogo
1772 2013-10-22 21:03:36 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: if they're using a SPV wallet I can, though I can't make it confirm...
1773 2013-10-22 21:03:45 <gmaxwell> ^ I was about to say that.
1774 2013-10-22 21:03:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|True enough.
1775 2013-10-22 21:04:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Still, no way to fool a user into fully believing it the way you could if you had them click the root ca cert first
1776 2013-10-22 21:04:49 edcba has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1777 2013-10-22 21:05:26 <petertodd> Official: your cert must be able to fool me when I'm drunk. :P
1778 2013-10-22 21:06:00 <petertodd> (when I'm sober I can verify RSA signatures in my head, and have the trustworthy CA's pubkeys memorized)
1779 2013-10-22 21:06:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: ...wait, really?
1780 2013-10-22 21:06:31 edcba has joined
1781 2013-10-22 21:06:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, so you mean CAs', or is there only one you trust?
1782 2013-10-22 21:06:58 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: uh yeah, well, I often lose track if they're using SHA512, but SHA1 is pretty easy
1783 2013-10-22 21:07:27 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: frankly I never bothered actually checking; I just memorized the list mozilla ships
1784 2013-10-22 21:07:34 <petertodd> (minus the ones issued by china)
1785 2013-10-22 21:07:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(And how drunk?)
1786 2013-10-22 21:08:05 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: SHA256: 1 drink, MD5: three drinks
1787 2013-10-22 21:08:16 <petertodd> four on a good day
1788 2013-10-22 21:08:18 Sealy has joined
1789 2013-10-22 21:08:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, at what level of drunkenness would that need to fool you?
1790 2013-10-22 21:08:49 <topi`> it seems bitcoind is no longer bundled in with the OSX version of bitcoin
1791 2013-10-22 21:09:02 <Luke-Jr> never was
1792 2013-10-22 21:09:04 <petertodd> Lets assume the three drinks case.
1793 2013-10-22 21:09:10 <topi`> perhaps I need to build it from source, but then, argh, once again installing some old libboost libs
1794 2013-10-22 21:09:26 <topi`> Luke-Jr: so, how does one do things like dumpprivkey, then?
1795 2013-10-22 21:09:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|topi`: RPC console
1796 2013-10-22 21:09:39 <Luke-Jr> topi`: that's generally a bad idea
1797 2013-10-22 21:09:40 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: not 10 though, I mean, if you can't do crypto in your head, you're obviously not even conscious
1798 2013-10-22 21:09:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: o_O
1799 2013-10-22 21:10:01 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|can't do crypto in his head
1800 2013-10-22 21:10:11 <petertodd> pff, lame
1801 2013-10-22 21:10:14 <topi`> michagogo|cloud: ok, how do you enable rpc console on this 0.8.5 osx client?
1802 2013-10-22 21:10:14 <Luke-Jr> ..
1803 2013-10-22 21:10:18 <CodeShark> computing sha256 in your head is easy - it's the reverse that's a challenge
1804 2013-10-22 21:10:20 <Luke-Jr> can we dissect petertodd?
1805 2013-10-22 21:10:23 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|is sleep typing, apparently
1806 2013-10-22 21:10:55 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: careful, last guy that tried got a nasty shock when he hit my high-voltage bus
1807 2013-10-22 21:11:04 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|just found out that he has been asleep or in a coma his whole life
1808 2013-10-22 21:11:39 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|tosses a bucket of water at petertodd
1809 2013-10-22 21:11:53 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: pff, you think I was made in china?
1810 2013-10-22 21:12:08 <topi`> can anyone give me a hint as how to export privkeys from a wallet.dat (in berkeley DB format) to something that Multibit can import?
1811 2013-10-22 21:12:08 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|dunks petertodd in a swimming pool
1812 2013-10-22 21:12:19 <topi`> this wallet.dat is possibly from a 0.3.x series bitcoind
1813 2013-10-22 21:12:25 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: canadian/australian engineering is quality ok
1814 2013-10-22 21:12:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|topi`: just send the bitcoins over
1815 2013-10-22 21:12:34 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: I can survive hot and cold!
1816 2013-10-22 21:12:39 MagicFab_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1817 2013-10-22 21:12:54 <topi`> michagogo|cloud: trying to, but it seems Reindexing is going to take at least 4 days
1818 2013-10-22 21:13:17 <petertodd> topi`: pywallet might be able to do it
1819 2013-10-22 21:13:22 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rapidly oscillates petertodd between 0.1 kelvin and 162837363263636 kelvin
1820 2013-10-22 21:13:26 <topi`> petertodd: ok, i'll have a look at that
1821 2013-10-22 21:13:54 * petertodd dies
1822 2013-10-22 21:15:33 porquilho has quit ()
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1825 2013-10-22 21:17:35 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1826 2013-10-22 21:18:09 netg has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1827 2013-10-22 21:19:51 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1828 2013-10-22 21:20:54 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
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1831 2013-10-22 21:24:43 twomashi has joined
1832 2013-10-22 21:24:51 <twomashi> Having some trouble building libbitcoin, can anyone help?
1833 2013-10-22 21:25:56 <topi`> ask genjix ;)
1834 2013-10-22 21:26:04 <topi`> I wonder where he is, haven't seen online for a long time
1835 2013-10-22 21:26:04 yubrew_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1836 2013-10-22 21:26:37 yubrew has joined
1837 2013-10-22 21:26:58 yubrew has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1838 2013-10-22 21:27:28 yubrew has joined
1839 2013-10-22 21:27:29 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
1840 2013-10-22 21:30:53 <Luke-Jr> he stopped using IRC
1841 2013-10-22 21:31:57 twomashi has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1842 2013-10-22 21:32:40 <warren> I could be wrong, but it appears -fstack-protector-all isn't working with mingw32 gcc-4.6.3 =(
1843 2013-10-22 21:33:16 elevatioN-pwn has joined
1844 2013-10-22 21:34:06 elevatioN has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1845 2013-10-22 21:37:42 twomashi has joined
1846 2013-10-22 21:38:04 <twomashi> topi`: yea was looking for him
1847 2013-10-22 21:40:37 <dustjn> Does anyone know of a fork of testnet which may have occurred around oct 19, or of a way to view orphaned block branches?
1848 2013-10-22 21:41:35 <dustjn> I've built a database of transaction outputs in testnet, and I'm finding transactions from orphaned blocks ending up in my db, even though my code is (supposedly) only reading blocks with 6 or more confirmations.
1849 2013-10-22 21:50:32 <Luke-Jr> dustjn: we fork testnet all the time
1850 2013-10-22 21:51:30 sustrik has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1851 2013-10-22 21:52:44 <gmaxwell> dustjn: even on mainnet forks of >6 have happened, so if your world ends if there is a big reorg you perhaps should rethink your strategy.
1852 2013-10-22 21:53:48 Jere_Jones has quit ()
1853 2013-10-22 21:53:49 <CodeShark> 6 is not a magic number - it's entirely arbitrary
1854 2013-10-22 21:54:21 <CodeShark> it's based on a quick calculation in satoshi's paper that makes a bunch of assumptions that might or might not be relevant to your particular circumstances
1855 2013-10-22 21:54:26 <dustjn> CodeShark: I'm aware; I wasn't sure how often large reorgs happen on testnet and I can't find much info on that by googling.
1856 2013-10-22 21:54:33 <sipa> it's the smallest positive integer that is not the size of a galois field!
1857 2013-10-22 21:54:43 <CodeShark> lol sipa
1858 2013-10-22 21:54:52 ambimorph has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1859 2013-10-22 21:55:06 <CodeShark> in other words the smallest possible composite that has distinct factors?
1860 2013-10-22 21:55:14 <sipa> correct
1861 2013-10-22 21:55:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: actual forks? :o
1862 2013-10-22 21:55:25 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I mean, not counting protocol violations?
1863 2013-10-22 21:55:31 <sipa> only ones caused by bugs
1864 2013-10-22 21:55:45 <Luke-Jr> .. those don't count <.<
1865 2013-10-22 21:55:56 <sipa> well your software should deal with it :)
1866 2013-10-22 21:56:02 <gmaxwell> they'd break your software none the less (if your software was broken by big reorgs)
1867 2013-10-22 21:56:25 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it even assumes assumptions that have been regularly violated.
1868 2013-10-22 21:58:06 <gmaxwell> (e.g. we've have single entities with short term control of hashing power far beyond 10%)
1869 2013-10-22 21:59:14 gulli has joined
1870 2013-10-22 21:59:21 <gulli> Hey
1871 2013-10-22 21:59:41 <gulli> what java libs are you guys using to generate qr codes?
1872 2013-10-22 21:59:45 <gulli> zxing?
1873 2013-10-22 22:00:35 <helo> gulli: the qr codes in the reference client aren't generated by java libs
1874 2013-10-22 22:01:11 <Luke-Jr> I presume he means the Java clinets
1875 2013-10-22 22:02:09 <gulli> yup
1876 2013-10-22 22:05:20 Centaure has joined
1877 2013-10-22 22:06:34 <dobry-den> i've used zxing
1878 2013-10-22 22:12:54 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell
1879 2013-10-22 22:13:16 <skinnkavaj> Who can become an "Bitcoin-Qt core developer"?
1880 2013-10-22 22:13:27 <skinnkavaj> and have that shiny bitcoin button on the bitcointalk forums
1881 2013-10-22 22:13:30 <skinnkavaj> like you have
1882 2013-10-22 22:13:38 <skinnkavaj> what do you have to do?
1883 2013-10-22 22:14:22 <topi`> duh.. somebody needs to push base58 decoding lib into PyPI
1884 2013-10-22 22:14:46 digitalmagus2 has joined
1885 2013-10-22 22:14:49 <topi`> Multibit wants the privkey in base58 form, and pywallet dumps all privkeys in hex form. grr.
1886 2013-10-22 22:15:39 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: write lots of code often? :P
1887 2013-10-22 22:15:59 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: No just asking whose cock you have to suck
1888 2013-10-22 22:16:33 <topi`> Luke-Jr: I know you write python, do you have any library routine for encoding base58 the way Satoshi meant it?
1889 2013-10-22 22:16:44 <Luke-Jr> topi`: huh?
1890 2013-10-22 22:16:50 <warren> skinnkavaj: dude, inappropriate
1891 2013-10-22 22:17:02 <topi`> I know there's some funky id code (all addresses start with '1' )
1892 2013-10-22 22:17:38 <warren> skinnkavaj: it seems that anyone with sufficient skill and respect in the community could become a core developer. Note: I'm not anywhere near qualified to be there yet.
1893 2013-10-22 22:18:20 <topi`> damn. Multibit seems unusable to me if I cannot import my privkeys (in hex)...
1894 2013-10-22 22:18:41 <topi`> or then I just wait for 4-5 days for bitcoind to finish up reindex...
1895 2013-10-22 22:20:12 <Luke-Jr> https://blockchain.info/tx/7ed713227725f2e844b307ded8ae3b40c7e63969bf1c8dbffe5f622bc5ba2cfb woo
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1911 2013-10-22 22:50:20 <olalonde> how difficult is it to embed an URL in a transaction?
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1913 2013-10-22 22:50:41 <olalonde> would it have to be in the scriptPubkey?
1914 2013-10-22 22:51:43 <sipa> why would you want that?
1915 2013-10-22 22:51:56 <olalonde> just wondering if it is possible
1916 2013-10-22 22:52:06 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: transactions don't have any spot for embedding
1917 2013-10-22 22:52:11 <Luke-Jr> olalonde: except for generation
1918 2013-10-22 22:52:29 <olalonde> you mean coinbase transactions?
1919 2013-10-22 22:52:42 <Luke-Jr> yes
1920 2013-10-22 22:52:48 <olalonde> ah ok
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1922 2013-10-22 22:53:05 <olalonde> so those messages on blockchain.info are not actually coming from the blockchain right?
1923 2013-10-22 22:53:09 <sipa> no
1924 2013-10-22 22:53:09 <Luke-Jr> right
1925 2013-10-22 22:53:24 <Luke-Jr> if you want to understand bitcoin, you're probably best off ignoring bc.i
1926 2013-10-22 22:53:40 <olalonde> right
1927 2013-10-22 22:54:52 <skinnkavaj> sipa where is that video with you and gavin on youtube?
1928 2013-10-22 22:55:06 <skinnkavaj> is it removed? i have never gotten to watch it
1929 2013-10-22 22:55:11 <sipa> is there a video with me and gavin on youtube? :o
1930 2013-10-22 22:55:13 <skinnkavaj> but was going to do today
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1932 2013-10-22 22:55:15 <skinnkavaj> yes
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1935 2013-10-22 22:55:33 <skinnkavaj> you must know what video i mean, you are in it god damn it!
1936 2013-10-22 22:55:41 <sipa> i have honestly no clue
1937 2013-10-22 22:55:48 <skinnkavaj> i think Luke-Jr also in it
1938 2013-10-22 22:55:48 * Luke-Jr has been surprised to learn of photos/videos with himself in them :P
1939 2013-10-22 22:55:51 <Luke-Jr> see
1940 2013-10-22 22:56:01 <melik> hey there guys we are launching a new bitcoin community (https://coinchan.com/), we would like some input/feedback on it. please ignore this if youre not interested, and i apologize for advertising.
1941 2013-10-22 22:56:18 <Luke-Jr> melik: #bitcoin
1942 2013-10-22 22:56:25 <olalonde> are there any distributed databases that work a little bit like bitcoin but are designed for broadcasting messages?
1943 2013-10-22 22:56:40 <Scrat> olalonde: like bitmessage?
1944 2013-10-22 22:56:54 <skinnkavaj> melik: Still no "popular threads" function?
1945 2013-10-22 22:56:58 <olalonde> Scrat: thanks
1946 2013-10-22 22:57:00 <melik> thanks Luke-Jr !
1947 2013-10-22 22:57:18 <melik> skinnkavaj, its there; but a bit hidden :/
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1949 2013-10-22 22:57:42 <skinnkavaj> melik: www.blockchained.com best site for bitcointalk, it should be built in though
1950 2013-10-22 22:58:33 <melik> skinnkavaj, the search has many pre-built functions
1951 2013-10-22 22:58:45 <melik> "order by replies" "order by views" "last ? days" "last ? hours"
1952 2013-10-22 22:58:53 <melik> and you can mix and mathc
1953 2013-10-22 22:58:55 <melik> match*
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1962 2013-10-22 23:16:52 <dobry-den> blockchained logo is so cute
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1989 2013-10-22 23:51:26 <Squidicuz> Hello, is the directory: C:\ProgramData\boost_interprocess with a file at the end of the tree called BitcoinURI, a part of the bitcoin protcol/client ?
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