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  44 2013-10-23 00:38:33 <copumpkin> have people already asked about https://twitter.com/pbarreto/status/392415079934615552 ?
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  48 2013-10-23 00:42:23 <pigeons> what is the probability of the 13 faults?
  49 2013-10-23 00:42:30 <copumpkin> beats me, that's why I'm asking :)
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  51 2013-10-23 00:43:05 <pigeons> oh and then the next tweet
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  55 2013-10-23 00:49:40 <Luke-Jr> pigeons: probably zero if you use bitcoin correctly (ie, no address reuse)
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  67 2013-10-23 01:03:33 <jegz> hey is the guy who maintains the android bitcoin client in there?
  68 2013-10-23 01:03:34 <jegz> *here
  69 2013-10-23 01:04:21 <jegz> Andreas Schildbach
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  71 2013-10-23 01:04:53 <Luke-Jr> not now
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  74 2013-10-23 01:06:37 <jegz> it seems his client barfs on amount=${amount}X${n}
  75 2013-10-23 01:06:44 <jegz> like amount = 0.05X8
  76 2013-10-23 01:06:53 <jegz> in the URI from a QR code
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 108 2013-10-23 01:42:46 <Luke-Jr> jegz: that syntax was (unfortunately) removed in a newer URI spec
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 128 2013-10-23 02:01:38 <warren> cfields: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3063
 129 2013-10-23 02:01:46 <warren> cfields: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3120
 130 2013-10-23 02:02:12 <cfields> thanks
 131 2013-10-23 02:02:50 <warren> cfields: I'll ask around for other issues that need attention.
 132 2013-10-23 02:03:33 <warren> cfields: a while back you indicated we should wait on further gitian changes, we'd like to upgrade the win32 dep versions at least, you still want us to wait?
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 135 2013-10-23 02:05:00 <cfields> warren: i would prefer so, but since i'm not able to be around as much as i'd like at the moment, it's more important that things progress i suppose
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 137 2013-10-23 02:05:37 <warren> I don't anticipate there being big changes aside from dep version upgrades.
 138 2013-10-23 02:06:06 <cfields> warren: the major thing was getting qt building correctly, and dropping the big hacks we currently carry
 139 2013-10-23 02:06:25 <cfields> meaning: bump to latest stable and use the supported buildpath rather than mingw-unsupported
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 143 2013-10-23 02:06:56 <warren> cfields: we can leave qt entirely to you
 144 2013-10-23 02:06:58 <cfields> that path was broken until latest stable, so those two things need to happen at the same time
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 146 2013-10-23 02:07:27 <cfields> warren: ok, i'll try to get a qt PR put together this week, then.
 147 2013-10-23 02:07:28 <warren> so hmm, there was earlier mention of a bitcoin-qt.pro generator, is that feasible?
 148 2013-10-23 02:08:12 <cfields> it shouldn't be necessary for anything. what's the use-case?
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 150 2013-10-23 02:09:11 <warren> I don't know, sounds like he wants to continue to use some qt tool.
 151 2013-10-23 02:09:26 <warren> he's copied the old bitcoin-qt.pro for that purpose after autotools was merged
 152 2013-10-23 02:09:45 <cfields> qt creator can still be used with the Makefile.am and/or a quick .pro for the graphic assets
 153 2013-10-23 02:10:12 <warren> maybe he doesn't know that?
 154 2013-10-23 02:12:36 <cfields> perhaps. I've provided alternatives a few times. There's not a use-case that I've heard that can't be solved with what's available now. I'm happy to help if I've missed something, but I'll need a little leeway with workflow changes. Old habits can't be expected to work as-is...
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 229 2013-10-23 03:46:55 <jegz> Does 'listtransactions' order by time or timereceived or something else?
 230 2013-10-23 03:47:25 <Luke-Jr> actual order received
 231 2013-10-23 03:47:29 <Luke-Jr> regardless of clock
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 233 2013-10-23 03:48:44 <jegz> ok cool thanks
 234 2013-10-23 03:48:50 <jegz> man i feel the whole api is very inflexible :(
 235 2013-10-23 03:48:53 <jegz> no digs against anyone here
 236 2013-10-23 03:48:58 <jegz> but i just feel like i'm struggling with it
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 238 2013-10-23 03:50:13 <jegz> like i just want to list all transactions for an address, and there's no direct way to do that, so i'll have to keep track of where i am in the output from listtransactions and make sure my daemon doesn't fuck up
 239 2013-10-23 03:50:51 <Luke-Jr> addresses only have one transaction if you're using bitcoin correclty
 240 2013-10-23 03:50:59 <jegz> Luke-Jr: or just saw your comment about the X syntax being removed, where is that?? doesn't seem to be on the wiki
 241 2013-10-23 03:51:04 <Luke-Jr> addresses should never be used more than once
 242 2013-10-23 03:51:18 <jegz> Luke-Jr: well i can't count on how everyone uses it
 243 2013-10-23 03:51:18 <Luke-Jr> jegz: BIP 21 IIRC
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 249 2013-10-23 03:53:51 <jegz> looking at BIP 21... well I have to say that I didn't like the whole X thing myself, at the same time I think the value should just be in satoshis all the time. just makes less room for error...
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 252 2013-10-23 03:57:44 * jegz is tempted to branch just to add all the features i want... but then i would have to learn c/c++ etc 
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 262 2013-10-23 04:05:42 <kwukduck> can somebody here link me to some page with instructions on how to build bitcoin-qt from source?
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 265 2013-10-23 04:09:00 <MC1984_> doesnt it say on the github
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 268 2013-10-23 04:09:16 <Luke-Jr> it says in the source
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 270 2013-10-23 04:10:38 <jegz> kwukduck: super easy i just did it the other day
 271 2013-10-23 04:10:41 <kwukduck> yea tnx im browsing github now :) i just checked the wiki, and forum :)
 272 2013-10-23 04:10:45 <jegz> kwukduck: look in doc/build-$os.md
 273 2013-10-23 04:10:53 <kwukduck> reading that now :)
 274 2013-10-23 04:11:01 <kwukduck> tnx :)
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 280 2013-10-23 04:19:52 <warren> cfields: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues?labels=Build+system&page=1&state=open  There is a new label for github issues particularly for the build system.
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 310 2013-10-23 05:08:12 <dobry-den> jegz: there are other cleaner implementations of the client
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 312 2013-10-23 05:09:47 <dobry-den> if youre just parsing the wallet, you can even use something like pywallet
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 314 2013-10-23 05:10:04 <Delerium> Morning guys n gals. I'm looking at trying to rebroadcast a load of rawtransactions to the blockchain and trying to write a piece of code for it. What i'm finding is that when im passing it to my bitcoind client, its saying TX Rejected yet when i try and rebroadcast via blockchain.info/pushtx, it gets accepted. Do i need to do anything different to get my bitcoind client to accept them?
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 336 2013-10-23 05:33:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Delerium: the client will reject any transactions it's already seen
 337 2013-10-23 05:34:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sendrawtransaction does just about the same thing as getting it from a network peer
 338 2013-10-23 05:34:15 <jegz> dobry-den: i am mainly interested in a flexible query interface to all the transaction data
 339 2013-10-23 05:34:16 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 340 2013-10-23 05:34:23 <jegz> dobry-den: whether the addresses are in my wallet or not
 341 2013-10-23 05:34:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And so if the transaction is already known, no reason to save it again
 342 2013-10-23 05:34:50 Coincidental has joined
 343 2013-10-23 05:34:55 <jegz> dobry-den: in particular i want to lookup *transactions by address*
 344 2013-10-23 05:35:17 <CodeShark> argh! why does the bloom filter care about the output script semantics!?!
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 347 2013-10-23 05:36:40 <Delerium> [06:30] <michagogo|cloud> Delerium: the client will reject any transactions it's already seen <---- does that necessarily mean it is already on the blockchain or that the client itself has seen it
 348 2013-10-23 05:37:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The latter
 349 2013-10-23 05:38:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Actually, TX Rejected means that it isn't in the blockchain -- there's a different message for "already in blockchain"
 350 2013-10-23 05:38:10 <warren> michagogo|cloud: btw, we were given the go ahead to work on gitian dep upgrades with the exception of qt which cfields will handle.
 351 2013-10-23 05:38:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, cool
 352 2013-10-23 05:38:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Unfortunately, my computer's off being repaired :-/
 353 2013-10-23 05:38:59 <CodeShark> michagogo: you only have one? :p
 354 2013-10-23 05:39:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yep
 355 2013-10-23 05:39:23 <warren> otherwise he's entirely in the cloud, apparently
 356 2013-10-23 05:39:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And even if I didn't, that's the one with the gitian setup
 357 2013-10-23 05:39:37 <CodeShark> I have at least three computers within an arms length from me at practically all times :p
 358 2013-10-23 05:39:37 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 359 2013-10-23 05:39:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|warren: I'm dying the irccloud app on my phone
 360 2013-10-23 05:39:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Usung*
 361 2013-10-23 05:39:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Using**
 362 2013-10-23 05:40:20 <CodeShark> typing on a phone is a less-than-wonderful experience :)
 363 2013-10-23 05:40:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Less than wonderful, sure
 364 2013-10-23 05:40:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So is typing on a computer keyboard
 365 2013-10-23 05:40:42 dparrish_ has joined
 366 2013-10-23 05:40:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|They have their pros and cons
 367 2013-10-23 05:41:17 <Delerium> [06:35] <michagogo|cloud> Actually, TX Rejected means that it isn't in the blockchain -- there's a different message for "already in blockchain" <---- is there anyway to ignore the known client transactions then? I'm trying to understand why i get TX Rejected using the client but when i put on blockchain.info, it puts it on the blockchain
 368 2013-10-23 05:41:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For example, though autocorrect may mess up sometimes, it's also really good
 369 2013-10-23 05:41:31 <CodeShark> I've managed to be productive even on my tablet - in the sense of writing substantial amounts of code. but from my phone, all I can do is basic correspondence/basic browsing/calendar/contacts and games
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 371 2013-10-23 05:41:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Delerium: it doesn't put it "on the blockchain"
 372 2013-10-23 05:41:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It submits it to bc.i
 373 2013-10-23 05:42:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's unfortunately a common misunderstanding
 374 2013-10-23 05:42:26 <Delerium> apols - what i meant is that very soon after i use the pushtx on blockchain.info, the transaction appears on their site
 375 2013-10-23 05:42:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right.
 376 2013-10-23 05:42:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because you're saying to them "here's this transaction."
 377 2013-10-23 05:42:58 <CodeShark> only miners get the privilege of putting it "on the blockchain"
 378 2013-10-23 05:43:07 <Delerium> k that makes more sense then
 379 2013-10-23 05:43:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So once you hand it to them, they show it
 380 2013-10-23 05:43:36 <CodeShark> because it shows up at blockchain.info does not mean it's on the blockchain :)
 381 2013-10-23 05:43:37 <Delerium> so what im really best doing is pushtx onto blockchain.info site directly so users have visibility that its there and waiting for a miner?
 382 2013-10-23 05:43:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No
 383 2013-10-23 05:44:11 <CodeShark> Delirium, bitcoin messages are flooded to the network - which means all propagation is p2p
 384 2013-10-23 05:44:29 <CodeShark> blockchain.info does not hold a privileged position in this regard
 385 2013-10-23 05:44:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Normally when you send a transaction it'll go all over the network
 386 2013-10-23 05:44:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Including bc.i
 387 2013-10-23 05:44:55 <CodeShark> you send it to a few peers, they send it to other peers, and so on until everyone has it
 388 2013-10-23 05:45:16 <Delerium> and eventually a miner picks it up and puts it in a block etc
 389 2013-10-23 05:45:22 <CodeShark> yup
 390 2013-10-23 05:45:38 <Delerium> so the best way for me to get it on the blockchain is to setup a node with lots of peers?
 391 2013-10-23 05:45:50 dparrish_ has joined
 392 2013-10-23 05:45:50 <CodeShark> the quality is more important than the quantity
 393 2013-10-23 05:46:13 <CodeShark> but sending it to more peers does increase the chances it will propagate more quickly
 394 2013-10-23 05:46:16 <Delerium> im guessing the stock bitcoind connects just to any random p2p clients
 395 2013-10-23 05:46:19 <CodeShark> everything else being equal
 396 2013-10-23 05:46:42 <Delerium> as there a known list of 'quality' peers?
 397 2013-10-23 05:46:51 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 398 2013-10-23 05:46:59 <Delerium> (sorry for all these questions, just trying to understand so i can build a solution)
 399 2013-10-23 05:47:18 <CodeShark> bitcoind bootstraps off of hardcoded dns but keeps track of peers it has connected to for a long time recently
 400 2013-10-23 05:47:51 sustrik has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 401 2013-10-23 05:48:03 <CodeShark> there has to be some randomness in the peer selection for the network to function properly - but not all peers are ranked equally
 402 2013-10-23 05:48:52 <Delerium> ive noticed a max connections setting in a sample config file yet when i alter this to lets say 50, it never goes past 8 connections even after several days connected
 403 2013-10-23 05:48:53 <CodeShark> a peer you've connected to more recently gets a better score than one that you haven't been able to connect to for a while
 404 2013-10-23 05:49:44 <CodeShark> the peer selection algorithm could still be considerably improved - but it more or less works :)
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 406 2013-10-23 05:51:28 <CodeShark> Delerium, you should be able to increase the connection count
 407 2013-10-23 05:51:30 <gmaxwell> Delerium: We never make more than 8 outbound connections. There is no reason to, and doing so would waste a lot of resources. If you want more, get your inbound connections working.
 408 2013-10-23 05:51:49 <gmaxwell> And no, you can not increase the outbound connection count beyond 8.
 409 2013-10-23 05:51:52 <Delerium> yup just found that info on google, thanks gmaxwell
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 411 2013-10-23 05:52:30 <CodeShark> as long as the 8 connections are properly rotated, I suppose that's enough
 412 2013-10-23 05:56:34 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, there's really very little reason to rotate all the connections
 413 2013-10-23 05:56:55 <CodeShark> it's a way of discovering new nodes and avoiding cliques
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 415 2013-10-23 05:56:59 <phantomcircuit> the goal is to be censorship resistant, so 4 stable, 4 rotating would be exceptionally censorship resistant
 416 2013-10-23 05:57:03 <CodeShark> yeah
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 418 2013-10-23 05:57:50 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, with the current setup that doesn't weight peers in any way there's really no way to make a network partition like that
 419 2013-10-23 05:57:50 <warren> phantomcircuit: +1
 420 2013-10-23 05:58:08 <phantomcircuit> it only takes a single connection bridging the partitions for them to no longer be a partition
 421 2013-10-23 05:58:31 <CodeShark> on a separate note, bloom filters shouldn't care about internal script semantics other than perhaps allowing a client to only ask the peer to add new scripts to the filter that match a particular pattern
 422 2013-10-23 05:58:32 swords has joined
 423 2013-10-23 05:58:33 <phantomcircuit> if the connect() timeout was reduced to like 20ms that could be a big(tm) problem
 424 2013-10-23 05:58:52 <warren> a mix of stable, rotating and optional authenticated peers could harden the network against partitioning attacks
 425 2013-10-23 05:59:06 <CodeShark> it should be the client's responsibility to construct an appropriate script to match against
 426 2013-10-23 05:59:29 <CodeShark> and for input scripts, the filter could use constructed scripts less signatures
 427 2013-10-23 05:59:52 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: making it completely blind would make it less flexible, because it would become impossible to match some script types that otherwise could be matched.
 428 2013-10-23 06:00:14 <CodeShark> you could specify a match pattern if you want flexibility
 429 2013-10-23 06:00:56 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: e.g. you could not efficiently match a multisignature transaction which includes at least one of your pubkeys.
 430 2013-10-23 06:01:19 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I suppose that's true - I need to think more about that use case
 431 2013-10-23 06:01:41 <gmaxwell> warren: care must be taken that it doesn't make (esp geographic) partitioning more likely.
 432 2013-10-23 06:01:55 <warren> of course
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 435 2013-10-23 06:02:59 <gmaxwell> In general 8 is a really high amount. Mean pathlength in a network our side with order 8 nodes is tiny.. but really the graph is a randomly wired bipartite graph with order ~100 on one side, 8 on the other. And since it's randomly wired it's probably an expander graph, which means that it has a number of very strong robustness (e.g. mincut) properties.
 436 2013-10-23 06:03:18 <CodeShark> it seems to work well enough
 437 2013-10-23 06:03:41 <CodeShark> the biggest issue I have with peer selection is not the connection count but the bootstrapping
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 440 2013-10-23 06:08:29 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, assume 15 outstanding half open connections, 500ms timeout, that's 30 attempts/second
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 442 2013-10-23 06:08:58 <phantomcircuit> even if you had worst possible case where you tried to find a node by scanning the entire internet
 443 2013-10-23 06:09:04 <phantomcircuit> it would only take 4.5 hours on average
 444 2013-10-23 06:09:42 <CodeShark> heh, interesting calculation
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 446 2013-10-23 06:11:58 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, gnutella had a fallback peer discovery algorithm that was simply a briteforce of the ipv4 address space with a fixed port
 447 2013-10-23 06:12:07 <phantomcircuit> there were so many peers that it only took about 10 minutes
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 450 2013-10-23 06:12:56 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: doing that trips off all sorts of stupid intrusion detection alarms and get you blocked in varrious places. "I'd rather not"
 451 2013-10-23 06:13:16 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, agreed
 452 2013-10-23 06:13:21 <phantomcircuit> it would obviously be like
 453 2013-10-23 06:13:26 <phantomcircuit> last last last ditch attempt
 454 2013-10-23 06:13:40 <phantomcircuit> nuclear war has taken out all other infrastructure, but bitcoin survives!
 455 2013-10-23 06:13:43 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 456 2013-10-23 06:13:43 <phantomcircuit> (not really)
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 460 2013-10-23 06:18:00 <MC1984_> DNs itslef would have to die for that to be activated
 461 2013-10-23 06:18:19 <MC1984_> DNs somehow dying would probably blow up the world
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 466 2013-10-23 06:27:07 <Ascendion> I'm trying to work with the BitcoinSharp library and can't seem to get connections to any peers using the discovery techniques provided...
 467 2013-10-23 06:27:24 <Ascendion> whats the current "best" method for finding peers to link up with ??
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 470 2013-10-23 06:28:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ascendion: look at the peers you've had in the past
 471 2013-10-23 06:28:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And if you can't get any from there, query the DNA seeds
 472 2013-10-23 06:28:35 <Ascendion> never had any with this client code -- cold start
 473 2013-10-23 06:28:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|DNS*
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 475 2013-10-23 06:28:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There are 4 of those, iirc?
 476 2013-10-23 06:29:01 <Ascendion> ok -- I'll load that up as first in the discovery list and see if that helps
 477 2013-10-23 06:29:21 <Ascendion> right now I'm using IRC discovery and thats getting no where fast
 478 2013-10-23 06:29:44 <gavinandresen> IRC discovery was abandonded long ago
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 480 2013-10-23 06:30:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hah, yeah, that's been dead for months and months
 481 2013-10-23 06:30:14 <gmaxwell> years
 482 2013-10-23 06:30:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Years maybe? Udi)
 483 2013-10-23 06:30:31 <gmaxwell> Ascendion: not sure what you're doing, but using an (apparently) unmaintained library is probably a bad idea.
 484 2013-10-23 06:30:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Er, idk*
 485 2013-10-23 06:31:28 <Ascendion> the app I'm hooking into is C# and I dont want to hassle creating a wrapper for any c/c++ libraries unless I can't get this to work
 486 2013-10-23 06:31:43 <Ascendion> I just need read access... wont be generating any transactions
 487 2013-10-23 06:34:59 <Ascendion> however even DNS peer discovery doesnt appear to be working
 488 2013-10-23 06:35:20 <Ascendion> has there been a change in protocol version ?? whats the current ??
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 490 2013-10-23 06:36:54 <dizko> Ascendion: are you trying all of the ips returned?  ive never tried this before but doing a lookup on some of those seeds, most of them are not accepting connections to 8333, but some do
 491 2013-10-23 06:38:02 <Ascendion> I'm just watching the logs now and again but havent seen a full connect success.... and i'm cycling through everything returned by the discovery
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 496 2013-10-23 06:42:37 <Ascendion> any up to date stand alone libraries anyone would care to recommend ??
 497 2013-10-23 06:43:41 <Ascendion>  c/c++/c# preferred :)
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 514 2013-10-23 07:00:41 <Ascendion> the peer connect is a tcp connect ?? I dont have to open a port on MY firewall ??
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 517 2013-10-23 07:07:44 <Ascendion> hmmmm I've got nothing after ripping through the entire results of DNS discovery....
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 519 2013-10-23 07:11:12 <dizko> it gets a bit slow this late us time, you might need to hang around until they wake up
 520 2013-10-23 07:11:50 <dizko> it might be worthwhile to look through the bitcoin-qt source though
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 522 2013-10-23 07:12:34 <Ascendion> I'm bringing up the qt client now to see how fast it starts syncing -- its been a while since I've run it
 523 2013-10-23 07:12:52 <dizko> it connects pretty quickly
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 525 2013-10-23 07:14:43 <Ascendion> if it does come up and start downloading the block chain, I'm gonna try pointing the c# code at it and see if it connects up
 526 2013-10-23 07:16:24 <Ascendion> hmmmm qt wallet isnt getting a connection either
 527 2013-10-23 07:16:26 <dizko> im not sure if it will let you connect until its done updating the blockchain itself
 528 2013-10-23 07:16:50 <dizko> does debug.log give you any indication?
 529 2013-10-23 07:17:02 <Ascendion> its gotta connect to the P2P network to get the block chain update
 530 2013-10-23 07:17:34 <dizko> yea i mean, i dont think its going to let your app connect to it until its done that, im not positive but i suspect it to be so
 531 2013-10-23 07:17:48 <dizko> youre saying qt isnt finding any peers?
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 533 2013-10-23 07:18:05 <Ascendion> qt client just got 1st one and got another fast
 534 2013-10-23 07:18:53 <Ascendion> there -- just started updating the chain
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 536 2013-10-23 07:29:54 <Ascendion> welp it failed connecting to the QT client -- I'll try again when the chain finishes syncing
 537 2013-10-23 07:30:07 <Ascendion> 16k blocks to go :)
 538 2013-10-23 07:31:21 <dizko> heh
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 542 2013-10-23 07:34:22 <Ascendion> heh is right -- just looked at the time -- gonna crash while it syncs :)
 543 2013-10-23 07:34:45 <dizko> sure, see privmsg though if you want
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 545 2013-10-23 07:35:17 <Ascendion> what privmsg -- I dont see one
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 582 2013-10-23 08:12:59 <melvster> so im looking at the raw block entry ( http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/0000000000000001fd39e75f84adae4698500319aee7c8037078edfa4047346a ) ... why is there no mention of difficulty?
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 596 2013-10-23 08:23:24 <swulf--> anyone around to take a look at a txn? ebc9fa1196a59e192352d76c0f6e73167046b9d37b8302b6bb6968dfd279b767 is weird
 597 2013-10-23 08:23:33 <swulf--> not sure why it's even valid
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 605 2013-10-23 08:29:00 <gmaxwell> swulf--: why wouldn't it be?
 606 2013-10-23 08:29:11 <gmaxwell> scriptpubkeys are only parsed on spend.
 607 2013-10-23 08:29:31 <swulf--> oh
 608 2013-10-23 08:29:35 <swulf--> that explains that
 609 2013-10-23 08:29:41 <swulf--> the script size is set to 1
 610 2013-10-23 08:29:49 <swulf--> but the opcode '1' requires 1 byte of data, making the script 2 bytes long
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 614 2013-10-23 08:35:04 <MC1984_> has/is the foundation considered funding a comprehensive security audit of the bitcoin code at a particular point in time
 615 2013-10-23 08:35:30 <MC1984_> to some sort of assured high level of accuracy/competence. The kind that comes with auditing say avionics software
 616 2013-10-23 08:35:47 <MC1984_> there are firms that do this?
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 627 2013-10-23 08:40:01 <MC1984_> perhaps i should ask if there is any outfit in the world that is capable of giving that sort of guarantee
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 630 2013-10-23 08:42:23 <sipa> melvster: because difficulty is a high-level concept, intended for humans; no algorithm or protocol uses it internally
 631 2013-10-23 08:42:51 <sipa> melvster: internally, a 32-bit custom encoding of the target is used (sometimes called nBits)
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 633 2013-10-23 08:44:21 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: you can't get avionics assurance on random existing code. Part of achieving that level of confidence requires considerations in the structure of the software.
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 635 2013-10-23 08:44:57 <MC1984_> right
 636 2013-10-23 08:45:30 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: For example, you do things like demonstrate that your tests execute every branch (and usually every way of triggering that branch). Technically bitcoin is _stuffed_ full of branches that can never happen due to boost stuff (e.g. catching allocator errors that never happen in order to throw exceptions which will never be caught).
 637 2013-10-23 08:45:41 <MC1984_> i meant more "yes its broken in the following major ways and none others" rather than "we guarantee its fine"
 638 2013-10-23 08:46:45 <gmaxwell> Right but the procedures needed to give assurance cannot generally be applied (at least not tremendously more than we already have (e.g. we've used static analysis)). Certantly more review is good, I'm just protesting your comparison to avionics. :P
 639 2013-10-23 08:47:41 <MC1984_> i couldnt think of a better way to get across the level of assurance needed
 640 2013-10-23 08:49:41 <MC1984_> so bitcoind would have to be reimplemented from scratch with such assurance auditing in mind, to approach what im talking about
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 642 2013-10-23 08:53:43 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: Right. Though certantly half steps are possible and are valuable too.
 643 2013-10-23 08:54:25 <gmaxwell> It's also the case that high assurance might be somewhat incompatible with high performance, and we can't address that problem by throwing more hardware at it.
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 645 2013-10-23 08:55:41 <bmcgee> this conversation reminds me of formal methods and Z specification….. *shudder*
 646 2013-10-23 08:55:45 <MC1984_> yes. You guys are wading thru the code every day looking for brokeness as you go. Yet things like the deathblock still happened and no one saw it coming.
 647 2013-10-23 08:56:04 <MC1984_> (thats not a negative comment on your competency or anything)
 648 2013-10-23 08:56:36 <sipa> we should have seen that coming
 649 2013-10-23 08:56:52 <sipa> it was a piece if code that i knew existed, but just never questioned
 650 2013-10-23 08:56:54 <bmcgee> what was the deathblock?
 651 2013-10-23 08:57:10 <sipa> "i assume these bdb limits are chosen wisely"
 652 2013-10-23 08:57:16 <MC1984_> i just thought maybe hiring even one guy who does nothing but check over the code daily might have been the first thing the foundation did
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 654 2013-10-23 08:57:27 <sipa> the march 11 fork, i assume
 655 2013-10-23 08:57:57 <MC1984_> and i thought perhaps they had but i hadnt heard of it
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 657 2013-10-23 08:58:48 <gmaxwell> bmcgee: You can do a lot of assurance work without going quite as far as formal proof.
 658 2013-10-23 08:59:24 <MC1984_> sipa well no one is infallible.
 659 2013-10-23 08:59:53 <bmcgee> gmaxwell: indeed, I in no way advocate it's use. I remember reading recently about some web browser or something that had it's security verified by formal methods. However it was only a few hundred lines of code in a centrallised security component because anything larger would be too difficult given current approaches
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 661 2013-10-23 09:00:01 <gmaxwell> Even if you looked at the limits "10000" sounded enough that at least you would have assumed it wouldn't be hit without a large reorg. Less obvious that it could use two locks per record.
 662 2013-10-23 09:00:38 <MC1984_> im just surprised that with all those duess there isnt an actual dedicated audit team or something
 663 2013-10-23 09:00:49 <gmaxwell> bmcgee: there are a bunch of parts of the opus codec that I verified with formal methods. But honestly, in a quite a few cases it was easier to just test the function with _all possible inputs_. (e.g. testing 4 billion inputs isn't really a big deal anymore)
 664 2013-10-23 09:00:55 <MC1984_> like, they dont code anything, they audit and thats it
 665 2013-10-23 09:01:11 <MC1984_> well, they could do pullreqs like everyone else i suppose
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 667 2013-10-23 09:03:19 <MC1984_> well companies like bitpay for instance hired jeff garzik directly to work on bitcoin. But thats to actually develop it which you could say is more creating new bugs than killing old ones :P
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 669 2013-10-23 09:04:19 <MC1984_> interestingly i read an article recently about how peer review in science is failing and journals should form proper review teams and such
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 671 2013-10-23 09:06:44 <gmaxwell> lol that might actually require spending money.
 672 2013-10-23 09:07:04 <gmaxwell> I imagine the open access world will solve peer review sooner than journals do.
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 674 2013-10-23 09:07:34 <gmaxwell> But I dunno, peer review is _inconsistent_ you can see how it has failed bitcoin papers pretty completely, but in papers I've published on signal processing have gotten useful feedback from reviewers.
 675 2013-10-23 09:08:50 <MC1984_> has the satoshi whitepaper been formally reviewed?
 676 2013-10-23 09:09:04 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, so far i dont think there has been a single bitcoin paper that made any sense except satoshis
 677 2013-10-23 09:09:28 <phantomcircuit> my favorite are all the ones that claim to have tracked things which im confident they cannot track
 678 2013-10-23 09:09:48 <MC1984_> come to think of it i suppose the best formal review of satoshis whitepaper so for is bitcoind
 679 2013-10-23 09:11:01 TD has joined
 680 2013-10-23 09:11:04 <MC1984_> it doesnt help that the system merges technical and economic elements in a symbiotic way that can only take decades to play themselves out and cant be sped up
 681 2013-10-23 09:12:20 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's not quite that bad. But there is both a lot of "true but irrelevant", "wtf are you talking about", and "yea, everyone knows that. Tell us something new."
 682 2013-10-23 09:12:52 <MC1984_> so ill say bitcoin is a blindfolded rollercoaster ride - bumpy and thrilling and you know you should eventually get to the end safely , but you never know.......
 683 2013-10-23 09:13:08 <TD> in other words, it might make you vomit
 684 2013-10-23 09:13:20 <MC1984_> lol
 685 2013-10-23 09:13:43 <MC1984_> look at the hashrate chart. Thats the top of the coaster :P
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 695 2013-10-23 09:37:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell, MC1984_: it's very common for safety-critical avionics and similar software to do things like not use loops or even if statements at all to make formal verification possible. Obvious at some point calling it "software" is a misnomer...
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 698 2013-10-23 09:39:36 <MC1984_> i dont quite understand the significance of that, so heres an anecdote instead: i was amused for at least 5 minutes when i read the company that did the flight software for the f-22 also did the firmware for those little blue linksys routers that were absolutely everywhere
 699 2013-10-23 09:39:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell, MC1984_: I've personally done this myself: I wrote some firmware for a power supply whose only loop was the watchdog timer.
 700 2013-10-23 09:39:43 <MC1984_> vxworks
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 702 2013-10-23 09:40:08 <petertodd> vxworks is also in at least one of the mars rovers
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 704 2013-10-23 09:40:24 <MC1984_> welp
 705 2013-10-23 09:40:39 <petertodd> Said power supply firmware delibrately blinked a light so you could know if the watchdog timer failed. :P
 706 2013-10-23 09:41:12 <petertodd> QNX is another example: runs real-time stuff all over the place, yet also winds up in consumer products.
 707 2013-10-23 09:41:46 <petertodd> (though anyone using QNX probably should ditch it for something else these days, given blackberry now owns it...)
 708 2013-10-23 09:42:05 <MC1984_> ah real time os
 709 2013-10-23 09:42:15 <MC1984_> yes i think i understand what that is
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 711 2013-10-23 09:42:57 <petertodd> heh, well, speaking of: which of the following are real time systems: Bitcoin, UPS parcel delivery, and USPS letter mail
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 714 2013-10-23 09:44:01 <MC1984_> none?
 715 2013-10-23 09:44:17 <petertodd> what do you think makes a system real time?
 716 2013-10-23 09:44:52 <MC1984_> its operation is very ordered?
 717 2013-10-23 09:45:02 <petertodd> (actually, I should add the rendering loop of a video game to my examples)
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 719 2013-10-23 09:45:23 <petertodd> MC1984_: nope, real time means it has hard deadlines re: timing that the system must meet
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 721 2013-10-23 09:45:30 <MC1984_> like, each step of whatas going on is very dependent on the previous
 722 2013-10-23 09:45:53 <MC1984_> and it hasnt got much of a choice about when exactly things happen, they must happen as soon as possible
 723 2013-10-23 09:45:56 <petertodd> No, more like "my program controls a robot arm, and it damn well better respond in 1 milli-second
 724 2013-10-23 09:45:59 <petertodd> "
 725 2013-10-23 09:46:37 <petertodd> what do you think matters? that it happen as soon as possible, or happen no later than some deadline?
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 727 2013-10-23 09:47:05 <MC1984_> yeah thats the obvious answer; its for things where you cant afford to be looking at a spinning cursor
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 729 2013-10-23 09:47:20 <petertodd> ok, do you think UPS parcel delivery is a real-time system?
 730 2013-10-23 09:48:36 <MC1984_> i want to say no because each parcel is not guaranteed to be on x truck, given a certain starting state of thier consignment system
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 732 2013-10-23 09:48:50 <MC1984_> but youve been trying to explaint o me that it is
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 735 2013-10-23 09:50:06 <MC1984_> fuck m i thinking about this too hard
 736 2013-10-23 09:51:09 <petertodd> MC1984_: heh, no it's the exact opposite: UPS parcel delivery is a real-time system because there are hard deadlines - next-day delivery - that must be met, and not meeting them is considered to be a failure.
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 738 2013-10-23 09:51:53 <MC1984_> yeah i wsa thinking about it too hard
 739 2013-10-23 09:52:05 <petertodd> MC1984_: USPS letter mail on the other hand, has no exact guarantees. Similarly videogames are "soft" real time, because you want rendering to be as fast as possible, with low-latency, but if that fails... it's not a big deal.
 740 2013-10-23 09:52:30 <MC1984_> a real time system ensures the deadlines due to the well known and deterministic things that happen internally which ive been poorly trying to explain
 741 2013-10-23 09:53:10 <petertodd> Bitcoin's really strange though, because if everyone used the same hardware, it wouldn't be a real-time system. On the other hand, because they don't, for consensus to be maintaied nodes absolutely must keep up with the blockchain data in real-time.
 742 2013-10-23 09:53:20 <petertodd> MC1984_: yup, emphasis on deterministic
 743 2013-10-23 09:54:11 <petertodd> Which is why I like the example of parcel delivery: sure it's not "fast" at all compared to running a robot, but it still has to meet a hard deadline.
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 746 2013-10-23 09:54:33 <MC1984_> youve had better experiences of parcel delivery than i
 747 2013-10-23 09:55:11 <petertodd> ha, well... real-time vs. non-real-time is more about the philosophy of how something is designed, not what results are actually achieved. :P
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 749 2013-10-23 09:55:22 <MC1984_> http://i.imgur.com/7UuTg.gif latest_amazon_purchase.gif
 750 2013-10-23 09:55:50 <sipa> real-time system: a system where a response that arrives after a certain deadline is exactly as useless as a wrong answer
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 752 2013-10-23 09:56:12 <petertodd> MC1984_: see, a better design would guarantee the deadline by putting a bump on the conveyor :P
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 754 2013-10-23 09:56:45 <petertodd> sipa: I need to remember that definition :)
 755 2013-10-23 09:57:05 <MC1984_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0ovuA--VEw wow its not even looped. convinced this has happened to me now
 756 2013-10-23 09:57:23 <MC1984_> what a beautiful equilibrium of forces
 757 2013-10-23 09:57:28 <sipa> petertodd: i guess that would be rather a real-time problem; a real-time system is one that tries to solve such a problem :)
 758 2013-10-23 09:58:21 <petertodd> MC1984_: ha - apparently design of manufacturing processes for perishable stuff (like food) tends to pretty much all be batch processes at some level, because you can never be sure all your perishable product actually got through the line in time!
 759 2013-10-23 09:58:31 <petertodd> sipa: ha, yes
 760 2013-10-23 09:59:13 <MC1984_> so an RTOS imlies tight integration with the hardware, down to the clock cycle on the ICs i expect
 761 2013-10-23 09:59:21 <gmaxwell> It's not necessary that it be completely useless if late, but you would expect a big non-linearity in the usefulness function. E.g. everything fast enouh is perfectly useful and then you cross a threshold and everything after that is not very useful.
 762 2013-10-23 10:00:02 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: usually RTOS implies soft-realtime in most versions of it.
 763 2013-10-23 10:00:11 <petertodd> MC1984_: sometimes yes, although keep in mind real systems always have some level of reliability, so simply testing things thouroughly can meet that design reliability without good understanding of the hardware in some cases
 764 2013-10-23 10:00:55 <MC1984_> hahahah tell that to the mystery ftl neutrino guys
 765 2013-10-23 10:02:07 <petertodd> MC1984_: like my safety critical power supply firmware, with a hard-real-time deadline of a few minutes - I was pretty sure my uC was more deterministic than that!
 766 2013-10-23 10:02:28 <petertodd> MC1984_: ha, bad connector on a cable IIRC!
 767 2013-10-23 10:02:56 <MC1984_> yeah i beleive so. Counts as hardware and a signal path :P
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 769 2013-10-23 10:04:31 <petertodd> I feel bad for those guys w/ how the media treated them though
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 772 2013-10-23 10:07:23 <MC1984_> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1623
 773 2013-10-23 10:07:36 <MC1984_> (im too hip for xkcd now)
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 781 2013-10-23 10:13:30 <petertodd> http://pbfcomics.com/168/
 782 2013-10-23 10:13:36 <petertodd> I'm too hip for smbc now
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 784 2013-10-23 10:13:51 <petertodd> (and too dada)
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 797 2013-10-23 10:30:02 <TD> gmaxwell: awake?
 798 2013-10-23 10:30:42 <gmaxwell> TD: Yep.
 799 2013-10-23 10:31:01 <gmaxwell> (In Scotland right now)
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 801 2013-10-23 10:31:04 <TD> i need an ECC lesson :) the order n - is that a property of the curve, or of a curve point?
 802 2013-10-23 10:31:12 <TD> the SEC documents seem to use it in both contexts
 803 2013-10-23 10:31:18 <TD> i thought it was of the curve
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 806 2013-10-23 10:31:44 <gmaxwell> TD: in sane curves for ecc there is only a single subgroup, all points have a cycle of the same order.
 807 2013-10-23 10:31:45 <TD> that is, i thought it was the number of valid points on the curve
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 809 2013-10-23 10:32:14 <gmaxwell> But you can have a curve with multiple subgroups.. start at one point and you'll cycle back to it after X steps, start with another point, you'll cycle after Y.
 810 2013-10-23 10:32:23 <TD> right, so it's basically a property of the curve and the way the SEC documents express it (order n of G) is just another way to say the same thing
 811 2013-10-23 10:32:28 <gmaxwell> (and those subgroups are thus mutually exclusive)
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 813 2013-10-23 10:32:37 <gmaxwell> TD: right.
 814 2013-10-23 10:32:38 <TD> ok, thanks.
 815 2013-10-23 10:32:45 <TD> got it. how is scotland? foggy, i would imagine
 816 2013-10-23 10:32:54 <gmaxwell> rainy this morning. :)
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 818 2013-10-23 10:34:19 <TD> ah, some variety :)
 819 2013-10-23 10:34:28 <gmaxwell> (We use curve with only one subgroup for ECC because they reduce the order possible for the larger one (because points are split into two or more groups), and if one of the subgroups has a very small cycle, using points on it would render you insecure)
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 822 2013-10-23 10:39:19 <TD> yes, that makes sense
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 824 2013-10-23 10:40:43 <TD> one more question
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 827 2013-10-23 10:42:07 <TD> actually n/m
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 829 2013-10-23 10:46:19 <sipa> TD: iirc they do define the cofactor h for the subgroup generated by the generator; if that is 1, it is equal to the size of the group
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 831 2013-10-23 10:46:43 <TD> right. they do indeed.
 832 2013-10-23 10:46:53 <TD> i'm implementing the S canonicalization for bitcoinj
 833 2013-10-23 10:46:57 <TD> hence my questions
 834 2013-10-23 10:47:06 * TD learned today what the cofactor variable means
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 837 2013-10-23 10:51:05 <sipa> TD: in any case; if S > n/2, S = n - S
 838 2013-10-23 10:51:43 <gmaxwell> TD: thanks for implementing that.
 839 2013-10-23 10:52:42 <TD> sipa: sure, i can read the code, i was just using it as an excuse to learn more maths
 840 2013-10-23 10:52:59 <TD> don't want to implement this stuff when <100% confident i understand the reasoning
 841 2013-10-23 10:53:06 <sipa> of course
 842 2013-10-23 10:54:08 <TD> there we go: https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/detail?r=ddf9d9f4e017ea355528892074a52683d4c91681
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 848 2013-10-23 10:56:55 <sipa> TD: LGTM
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 864 2013-10-23 11:19:03 <gmaxwell> woo: 2013-10-23 11:13:34 ERROR: DisconnectBlock() : outputs still spent? database corrupted
 865 2013-10-23 11:19:06 <gmaxwell> 2013-10-23 11:13:37 ERROR: VerifyDB() : *** coin database inconsistencies found (last 31 blocks, 33821 good transactions before that)
 866 2013-10-23 11:19:15 <gmaxwell> wish I knew how I caused it!
 867 2013-10-23 11:20:58 <gmaxwell> linux, clean shutdown of the node last execution. No system reboot.
 868 2013-10-23 11:21:51 <sipa> weird :o
 869 2013-10-23 11:21:57 <CodeShark> perhaps we should add more debug tracers to the db code
 870 2013-10-23 11:22:18 <sipa> that should be easy... we only write to it from one plac
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 872 2013-10-23 11:22:43 <sipa> but i doubt it will help
 873 2013-10-23 11:23:23 <CodeShark> leveldb is supposed to support atomic operations, no?
 874 2013-10-23 11:23:27 <sipa> yes
 875 2013-10-23 11:23:41 <sipa> but that is irrelevant even in case of a clean shutdown
 876 2013-10-23 11:25:05 <gmaxwell> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/db.failure.txt  < see anything interesting it there?  (unmodified, except for some Addtowallet events, debug log end of the last successful execution and the end of the one before it)
 877 2013-10-23 11:27:32 <Delerium> Has the recommended fee really gone up 100% to 0.005 now?
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 879 2013-10-23 11:27:52 <MC1984_> up?
 880 2013-10-23 11:28:16 <sipa> i know of no "recommended" fee?
 881 2013-10-23 11:28:26 <gmaxwell> Delerium: can you please give some more context?
 882 2013-10-23 11:28:50 <sipa> in many cases, cleints enforce a minimum fee to guarantee propagation on the network
 883 2013-10-23 11:29:00 <sipa> this fee depends on the size (in kilobytes) of the transaction
 884 2013-10-23 11:29:18 <sipa> so in case you need to spend many old coins, the fee may go up
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 886 2013-10-23 11:29:29 <sipa> (coins as in individual transaction outputs)
 887 2013-10-23 11:29:36 <MC1984_> fees affect propagation?
 888 2013-10-23 11:29:36 <gmaxwell> normally 0.0001/kb, since thats what most of the network requires for very low priority transactions
 889 2013-10-23 11:29:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: s/old //
 890 2013-10-23 11:29:50 <Delerium> sorry, for example mtgox have now increased their fee up from 0.005 from 0.0005
 891 2013-10-23 11:30:07 <Delerium> up to*
 892 2013-10-23 11:30:17 <sipa> complain to mtgox then :)
 893 2013-10-23 11:30:19 <MC1984_> thats more than 100%
 894 2013-10-23 11:30:36 <gmaxwell> Delerium: dunno what mtgox is up to, they've had problems with transactions confirming slowly, but I don't believe they were generally fee related. E.g. they were creating invalid transactions, I dunno if they've fixed that yet.
 895 2013-10-23 11:31:24 <Delerium> seems a little drastic for a 100% increase, just wanted to check what the 'norm' fee was these days
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 897 2013-10-23 11:33:41 <CodeShark> look at the most recent blocks and calculate fee statistics
 898 2013-10-23 11:35:00 <gmaxwell> Delerium: thats 1000% btw.
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 901 2013-10-23 11:35:39 <Delerium> good point
 902 2013-10-23 11:35:56 <Delerium> its almost a bank charge now... not the way i'd like bitcoin to go
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 905 2013-10-23 11:38:43 <keyboard> I'd expect high tx fees because tx end up in everyones hard disks
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 907 2013-10-23 11:40:42 <CodeShark> you don't need to keep them if you don't need to be relaying full blocks to others
 908 2013-10-23 11:41:11 <CodeShark> you can even do full verification and then trash the txs that you don't care about, only keeping the block headers
 909 2013-10-23 11:41:16 <MC1984_> gmaxwell in scotland, business or pleasure?
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 911 2013-10-23 11:41:52 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: I'm speaking at a conference (non bitcoin stuff)
 912 2013-10-23 11:42:09 <MC1984_> oh cool
 913 2013-10-23 11:42:30 <MC1984_> welcome to sunny uk lol
 914 2013-10-23 11:43:32 <gmaxwell> I'll be in vancouver in a week, another sunny place. :P
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 919 2013-10-23 11:46:47 <TD> Delerium: i'd agree with you that fees are too high, although that sounds like mtgox had too many complaints about slowly confirming txns and didn't understand the root cause
 920 2013-10-23 11:47:01 <TD> Delerium: (in which case the higher fee won't solve their problem)
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 922 2013-10-23 11:47:21 <Delerium> yup trying to relay that to MT :P
 923 2013-10-23 11:47:55 <TD> fees used to be much lower and things worked fine, but because they're hard-coded at the moment when the exchange rate went up by 20x, so did the fee ....
 924 2013-10-23 11:48:53 <Delerium> yeah but a 1000% jump is just a little bit ridiculous by them
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 926 2013-10-23 11:49:13 <Delerium> if they must change fees, they should perhaps give customers a tiered fee system (High/Med/Low) etc
 927 2013-10-23 11:49:24 <TD> right. it sounds like a quick sledgehammer move ....
 928 2013-10-23 11:49:27 <TD> hopefully they'll fix it
 929 2013-10-23 11:49:31 <Delerium> idd
 930 2013-10-23 11:49:42 <TD> though i have no idea if people are even still able to move fiat in and out of mtgox right now. their lack of communication on their status is not great
 931 2013-10-23 11:50:06 <Delerium> you can via SEPA, international wires, the queue is massive :/
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 933 2013-10-23 11:50:41 <TD> yeah i know they technically support it, i meant, "even still able in practice"
 934 2013-10-23 11:50:54 <MC1984_> do they even care any more
 935 2013-10-23 11:51:04 <Delerium> very much so
 936 2013-10-23 11:51:11 <TD> i'm sure they do, but it must be very hard for them to get banking partners since their legal issues
 937 2013-10-23 11:51:13 <Delerium> my fiance works for their support team
 938 2013-10-23 11:51:13 <TD> (in the usa)
 939 2013-10-23 11:51:28 <MC1984_> well shit
 940 2013-10-23 11:51:33 <TD> it seems all exchanges are having big problems getting bank accounts
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 942 2013-10-23 11:51:45 <MC1984_> yup
 943 2013-10-23 11:51:50 <Delerium> number 1 problem = banks
 944 2013-10-23 11:52:08 <Delerium> they have a monopoly and power, why would they want to release that
 945 2013-10-23 11:52:17 <TD> i doubt it's about competitive issues now
 946 2013-10-23 11:52:21 <Delerium> but sorry, going way off topic in this chan
 947 2013-10-23 11:52:25 <TD> they're all just scared of the US Treasury dept
 948 2013-10-23 11:53:48 <MC1984_> but i was told the banks run the govt
 949 2013-10-23 11:53:57 <TD> not at all
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 951 2013-10-23 11:55:04 <MC1984_> are you saying i have been misinformed sir
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1030 2013-10-23 13:34:14 <topi`> what happens if I import a privkey into Multibit wallet, and have specified the date (how far back to look for transactions) too late? Will it miss the few vital transactions?
1031 2013-10-23 13:34:30 <topi`> I guess I just need to delete that wallet and create a new one and repeat, rinse, lather
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1034 2013-10-23 13:35:45 <topi`> it just shows the balance wrong?
1035 2013-10-23 13:35:52 <topi`> i.e. doesn't allow me to spend all of it
1036 2013-10-23 13:36:48 <TD> yeah
1037 2013-10-23 13:36:55 <TD> i think jim puts in some slack though
1038 2013-10-23 13:37:05 <TD> you could check the balance multibit thinks you have vs what blockchain.info thinks
1039 2013-10-23 13:37:06 <topi`> ok :)
1040 2013-10-23 13:37:34 <topi`> under no circumstances could those outputs change to "unspendable" in any case I presume?
1041 2013-10-23 13:37:57 <CodeShark> unless someone steals your keys :)
1042 2013-10-23 13:38:00 <topi`> since that would be a silly way to leak money out of the max 21 million ...
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1044 2013-10-23 13:38:09 <TD> it's really just best to make sure you pick the right date
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1046 2013-10-23 13:38:26 <topi`> TD: I agree, but it's easy to forget when you forge the .key file manually ;)
1047 2013-10-23 13:38:36 <t7> i still think there will be a place for banks, even if everyone used bitcoin. Banks can provide physical security
1048 2013-10-23 13:38:40 <TD> ah. well, that's totally unsupported of course
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1050 2013-10-23 13:38:57 <t7> i dont wanna get tortured for my private key to my life savings
1051 2013-10-23 13:39:03 <topi`> TD: I'm completely used to doing totally unsupported things ;)
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1053 2013-10-23 13:39:38 <topi`> t7: why not split the key between others you trust? like, your wife and you both know just one half fo the key
1054 2013-10-23 13:39:49 <topi`> ok, that might turn very bad in case of a divorce...
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1057 2013-10-23 13:40:02 <t7> also in a bitcoin only world, tax returns could be generated for you by a government blockchain scanner
1058 2013-10-23 13:40:34 <topi`> yeah, no more grey economy, everything in the open ledger ;)
1059 2013-10-23 13:40:35 <t7> say goodbye to your privacy
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1061 2013-10-23 13:41:25 <CodeShark> there will be ways to mitigate that eventually
1062 2013-10-23 13:41:51 <CodeShark> right now the user experience in bitcoin is terrible enough
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1064 2013-10-23 13:42:01 <CodeShark> without the additional complexity of trying to really mitigate privacy
1065 2013-10-23 13:42:59 <CodeShark> however, eventually much of the complexity will be hidden from the enduser
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1067 2013-10-23 13:43:36 <CodeShark> bitcoin is just proof of concept that it's possible to create a decentralized p2p currency
1068 2013-10-23 13:43:49 <CodeShark> it's an early biplane - we're still learning how to get off the ground
1069 2013-10-23 13:43:53 dparrish has joined
1070 2013-10-23 13:44:13 <CodeShark> we haven't even neared the jet age
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1073 2013-10-23 13:45:28 <topi`> in Multibit, is it wise to delete a wallet with balance > 0 btc?
1074 2013-10-23 13:45:39 <topi`> I *know* I have the private keys in safe, though
1075 2013-10-23 13:46:09 <CodeShark> if you have the private keys you can always rescan the chain (preferably using bloom filters and multiple connections)
1076 2013-10-23 13:46:11 <topi`> or rather, I'll just create another wallet, and import the same privkey there. let's see...
1077 2013-10-23 13:46:31 <topi`> yeah, bloom filter would be useful
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1079 2013-10-23 13:47:57 <topi`> especially since my coins go back to early 2011 :)
1080 2013-10-23 13:48:12 <CodeShark> I'm currently working on exactly that :)
1081 2013-10-23 13:48:22 <CodeShark> a bloom filter scanner for synching wallets
1082 2013-10-23 13:48:42 <topi`> cool. I've only once implemented a bloom filter, and that was from a damn tutorial ;)
1083 2013-10-23 13:49:03 <topi`> but the concept itself is simple, and implementation easy if you use Redis
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1085 2013-10-23 13:49:57 <topi`> I guess the Multibit is based on the bitcoinj codebase
1086 2013-10-23 13:50:16 <topi`> I'm tempted in creating an alternative lite client in Haskell :)
1087 2013-10-23 13:50:41 <CodeShark> I'm using natively compiled code for practically everything
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1089 2013-10-23 13:50:59 <CodeShark> I want this to be FAST
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1091 2013-10-23 13:51:10 <topi`> for readability, C++ sucks. and same - partially - applies to java.
1092 2013-10-23 13:51:30 <CodeShark> there are many different styles, idioms, and practices in both languages
1093 2013-10-23 13:51:45 <CodeShark> it takes a while to get used to some of them, and some of them are very clever while some suck
1094 2013-10-23 13:51:52 <topi`> if you had looked at compiler shootout benchmarks, you'd know the Haskell compiler is within a striking distance from G++
1095 2013-10-23 13:51:56 <gfawkes_> cant really blame a language. blame the coders who are writing code that is not readable ;)
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1097 2013-10-23 13:52:43 <topi`> gfawkes_: well, higher level code enhances readability. Take for example C++ vs. Python
1098 2013-10-23 13:53:04 <topi`> both perfectly object oriented, but C++ syntax is just distracting
1099 2013-10-23 13:53:05 <Musk> Python was good until 3.x
1100 2013-10-23 13:53:29 <CodeShark> C++ supports a very wide variety of coding styles and techniques - it can be made very readable, but yes - it generally requires a more in-depth understanding to be able to really use it well
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1102 2013-10-23 13:54:01 <CodeShark> it's the price to pay for greater control
1103 2013-10-23 13:54:20 <Musk> Battle of languages are pointless, using a language is all about solving issues, confort zone and nerdity.
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1105 2013-10-23 13:54:33 <CodeShark> what Musk said :)
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1107 2013-10-23 13:55:20 <Musk> and nerdity is pretty much your cult of allegiance to a specific language / platform / framework.. etc..
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1109 2013-10-23 13:55:59 <topi`> indeed.. I've been a linux dude from day 0
1110 2013-10-23 13:56:23 <CodeShark> I also find myself sometimes getting stuck in a rut - but I make an effort to learn something different often
1111 2013-10-23 13:56:58 <CodeShark> it can be frustrating at first not being as productive as you're used to being as you begin working with something new
1112 2013-10-23 13:57:11 <Musk> topi` who woudn't really.. people who hate linux 90% of the time is due to total ignorance of the OS.
1113 2013-10-23 13:57:17 <topi`> CodeShark: exactly my sentiments after starting with java..
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1115 2013-10-23 13:57:52 <topi`> Musk: the same can be applied to Python, of course, BFDL and all :)
1116 2013-10-23 13:57:56 <t7> Musk: my teacher in college used to say he hates linux and open source because 'any kid can now compile a website and steal credit card details'
1117 2013-10-23 13:58:00 <CodeShark> but the upside is you add more tools to your toolkit and later on can find better solutions to problems
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1119 2013-10-23 13:58:36 <topi`> t7: by analogy, we should ban kitchen knifes, because they can be used to kill.
1120 2013-10-23 13:58:48 <Musk> t7 i hope this is really a quotation and if it is shame on your teacher for not understanding anything related to IT... i mean "Compile a Website"
1121 2013-10-23 13:58:53 <Musk> dafuq/
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1123 2013-10-23 13:59:04 <t7> he was a moron
1124 2013-10-23 13:59:12 <topi`> make -f Makefile Website
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1126 2013-10-23 13:59:49 <topi`> didn't Facebook have a translator of sort that outputs C++ out of PHP code? they then literally "compile" their website :)
1127 2013-10-23 13:59:50 <Musk> gcc website.cpp -o website <-- more like this
1128 2013-10-23 13:59:59 <t7> i think he was making the point that it is very easy to change zencart or whatever software to spit out credit card numbers
1129 2013-10-23 14:00:12 <Musk> topi` HipHop
1130 2013-10-23 14:00:34 <topi`> speaking of PHP, yet another useless language
1131 2013-10-23 14:00:40 <Musk> not really efficient in my opinion... maybe on huge scale but even there PHP isn't know for scalability
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1135 2013-10-23 14:00:51 <t7> but its a tiny con vs a lot of big pros
1136 2013-10-23 14:01:12 <Musk> if it were me making a webapp today id use Node.JS
1137 2013-10-23 14:01:28 <topi`> Musk: we used that in our corporate setting, and gave up
1138 2013-10-23 14:01:31 <Musk> fast, efficient, scalable, cost effictive.
1139 2013-10-23 14:01:39 <Musk> topi` o rly
1140 2013-10-23 14:01:51 <Musk> didnt like 0.10.x  ?
1141 2013-10-23 14:02:02 <topi`> perf was ok, but managing it gets complex, and it's not easy to get involved even if you know JS already
1142 2013-10-23 14:02:23 <Musk> depends what kind of project... i guess.
1143 2013-10-23 14:02:27 <topi`> but our problem was also the lack of a suitable control flow lib, like step.js or async.js
1144 2013-10-23 14:02:42 <Musk> right.
1145 2013-10-23 14:02:44 <topi`> that should have been done right from the beginning... fatal flaw
1146 2013-10-23 14:03:06 <Musk> switched to python instead i assume ?
1147 2013-10-23 14:03:08 reizuki__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1148 2013-10-23 14:03:21 <topi`> python on JVM (jython)
1149 2013-10-23 14:03:32 <CodeShark> JS wasn't originally designed with large scale code structuring in mind. it outgrew its original intended purpose and eventually people discovered ways to structure it decently…but the structuring is an afterthought
1150 2013-10-23 14:03:50 <topi`> CodeShark: ...in other words, it's called a "hack" :)
1151 2013-10-23 14:03:52 <Musk> it seems to be the balance now people using either Node.JS or Python for these kinds of functionality/
1152 2013-10-23 14:04:16 <topi`> Musk: I do think that in the right hands, Node.js is very productve
1153 2013-10-23 14:04:18 <CodeShark> topi`: the funny thing is that js actually turned out to have some pretty powerful features
1154 2013-10-23 14:04:37 <topi`> CodeShark: indeed, functions as first class objects
1155 2013-10-23 14:04:43 reizuki__ has joined
1156 2013-10-23 14:04:53 <topi`> but I dislike the prototype-based class model
1157 2013-10-23 14:04:55 dparrish has joined
1158 2013-10-23 14:05:13 <topi`> maybe that's because I learned python first
1159 2013-10-23 14:05:44 <topi`> the great thing about python is that you have very, very few drawbacks, and none of them showstoppers
1160 2013-10-23 14:05:54 <topi`> and the ecosystem is huge
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1162 2013-10-23 14:06:08 <CodeShark> the greatest feature of python, IMO, is its regularity
1163 2013-10-23 14:06:18 <Musk> tried to learn Django once... gave up..
1164 2013-10-23 14:06:23 <CodeShark> constructs have consistent syntax
1165 2013-10-23 14:06:32 <Musk> not my usual way of thinking ^_^
1166 2013-10-23 14:06:39 <topi`> CodeShark: that's why Guido gave us Python 3, which Musk dislikes ;)
1167 2013-10-23 14:07:03 <CodeShark> I'm not generally big on frameworks, period - django is not so terrible, but I don't like to design to a framework
1168 2013-10-23 14:07:16 <CodeShark> I like to pick and choose frameworks when they fit the particular project
1169 2013-10-23 14:07:25 <CodeShark> or better yet, design my own :)
1170 2013-10-23 14:08:27 <CodeShark> but the framework issue is wholely separate from the language issue
1171 2013-10-23 14:08:51 <CodeShark> as a language, python is very regular
1172 2013-10-23 14:09:00 <CodeShark> it's slow as hell, but you can't have everything :p
1173 2013-10-23 14:09:28 <Musk> My point on this is that for me Python was more of a language to use to perform almost 'bash' script like operation but with more complexity... etc.
1174 2013-10-23 14:09:46 <CodeShark> agreed, Musk - bash is an example of an extremely irregular language
1175 2013-10-23 14:09:50 <Musk> Also wut i liked about python back in the days was how easy it was to manipulate sockets.
1176 2013-10-23 14:10:11 <Musk> and do SDL also was pretty neet
1177 2013-10-23 14:10:16 <CodeShark> on practically all points (except for barebones support practically everywhere) python beats bash hands down
1178 2013-10-23 14:10:43 dparrish has joined
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1181 2013-10-23 14:11:14 <Musk> no doubt but its like two diff things in a way.. don't think the mind set of bash was design to scale. lol
1182 2013-10-23 14:12:16 MagicFab_ has joined
1183 2013-10-23 14:12:19 <topi`> CodeShark: have you tried recent versions of PyPy? it's slowly approaching Google V8 engine speeds
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1186 2013-10-23 14:13:50 <topi`> I remember somebody implemented (phantomcircuit?) the bitcoin protocol in python
1187 2013-10-23 14:14:04 <topi`> would be fun to try that on PyPy
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1189 2013-10-23 14:14:31 <CodeShark> all the math-intensive stuff still needs to be done in C/C++ (with inline asm if you want it to-the-metal)
1190 2013-10-23 14:15:00 <CodeShark> but for things like user interfaces or control flow not involving extremely tight loops, it does the job
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1193 2013-10-23 14:15:51 <topi`> CodeShark: well, there's Cython :) you can compile your python project even as a standalone binary
1194 2013-10-23 14:15:53 debiantoruser has joined
1195 2013-10-23 14:15:58 <Musk> CodeShark some scientist out there would point out Fortran ;)
1196 2013-10-23 14:16:08 <topi`> but it's not really much faster unless you static type your variables
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1198 2013-10-23 14:17:18 <Musk> i don't know if it the new gen of dev not respecting their ancestors but it seems we are seeing a trend of people just trying to avoid using C/C++ even when its needed... Just like they despise this beautiful language.
1199 2013-10-23 14:17:25 <Musk> its sad.
1200 2013-10-23 14:17:57 <CodeShark> practically all systems software (including probably the operating system you're using right now) uses copious amounts of C/C++
1201 2013-10-23 14:17:59 <t7> C++ is a BBW
1202 2013-10-23 14:18:23 <t7> and im not really into them, and this analogy is breaking down because i do like C++ and its fast
1203 2013-10-23 14:18:24 <CodeShark> most language interpreters and JIT for other languages is written using C/C++
1204 2013-10-23 14:18:39 ValicekB has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1205 2013-10-23 14:18:45 <Musk> CodeShark ofcourse unless ur on Mac which would be primarly Objective-C though the Kernel is probably written in C anyways
1206 2013-10-23 14:19:52 <CodeShark> ftp://ftp.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/mach/public/src/mkernel/kernel/intel/
1207 2013-10-23 14:19:56 <Musk> i wish there was more C out there...
1208 2013-10-23 14:20:30 * Musk tips is hat to ritchie and kernighan
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1210 2013-10-23 14:22:05 <CodeShark> and C++ continues to evolve - C++11 is a major improvement over its predecessor on many fronts
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1214 2013-10-23 14:23:15 <Musk> C++ 0x :D
1215 2013-10-23 14:23:40 <Musk> :3
1216 2013-10-23 14:24:01 <CodeShark> perhaps the biggest drawback of C/C++ is safety
1217 2013-10-23 14:24:27 <topi`> Musk: I despise C/C++, but I'm old enough to have started with C and Assembler ;)
1218 2013-10-23 14:24:44 melvster has joined
1219 2013-10-23 14:24:45 <topi`> quite another thing is, to not to try to learn C/C++ *at all*
1220 2013-10-23 14:25:04 <CodeShark> I really love compiletime optimization
1221 2013-10-23 14:25:42 <CodeShark> that's the feature I most love about C++
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1223 2013-10-23 14:26:13 <CodeShark> it strikes a good balance between affording tremendous compiletime optimization and providing high level code organization constructs
1224 2013-10-23 14:26:41 <Musk> topi` i started on C++ at 14 yr old :3
1225 2013-10-23 14:26:57 <t7> Musk: same-ish maybe 12-13
1226 2013-10-23 14:27:01 <Musk> was planning for world domination at this age :D
1227 2013-10-23 14:27:12 <CodeShark> C affords at least as much compiletime optimization but lacks the high level code organization constructs
1228 2013-10-23 14:27:23 <t7> now i teach basic IT and english :P
1229 2013-10-23 14:27:26 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1230 2013-10-23 14:27:49 <topi`> totally another thing, but does anyone have any discount codes for coinabul.com? :)
1231 2013-10-23 14:27:59 <CodeShark> I started with BASIC as a kid :p
1232 2013-10-23 14:28:15 <Musk> i did VB6 at 15yr old.
1233 2013-10-23 14:28:20 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1235 2013-10-23 14:29:08 <Musk> when i started College i coudn't keep with slow pace classes we had... espicially Visual Basic holyshit.. that was easy.
1236 2013-10-23 14:29:25 <topi`> for me, Turbo Pascal in college ;)
1237 2013-10-23 14:29:46 <Musk> i did some pascal and tried Delphi didn't really like those.
1238 2013-10-23 14:30:00 <CodeShark> pascal is too verbose for my taste :)
1239 2013-10-23 14:30:05 <Musk> ^
1240 2013-10-23 14:30:49 <CodeShark> but pascal was sort of my introduction to structured programming
1241 2013-10-23 14:30:51 <topi`> so, nobody here a Coinabul customer?
1242 2013-10-23 14:30:53 <CodeShark> so I have to give it some credit
1243 2013-10-23 14:31:26 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1244 2013-10-23 14:31:43 ValicekB has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1245 2013-10-23 14:31:44 <pigeons> topi`: try #bitcoin-otc
1246 2013-10-23 14:32:03 <Musk> i should get back into doing some ASM... i think it should be helpful for possible futur project.
1247 2013-10-23 14:32:54 dparrish_ has joined
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1249 2013-10-23 14:34:02 <CodeShark> I should get back to bed :p
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1264 2013-10-23 14:50:06 Eremes has joined
1265 2013-10-23 14:50:33 <Eremes> anyone know how long to get 1 confirmation on blockchain ? its been 10 minutes without 1 confirmation
1266 2013-10-23 14:50:56 <Eremes> err nvm its showing up now
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1268 2013-10-23 14:52:10 <Ry4an> Eremes: it could in theory be infinitely long, but that's pretty darn unlikely. :)
1269 2013-10-23 14:52:30 <Eremes> Ry4an: thanks its suddenly showing 2 confirmation
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1285 2013-10-23 15:17:37 <lianj> anyone know the origin or reason for http://blockexplorer.com/tx/ebc9fa1196a59e192352d76c0f6e73167046b9d37b8302b6bb6968dfd279b767 ?
1286 2013-10-23 15:20:36 <gmaxwell> 01:21 < swulf--> anyone around to take a look at a txn? ebc9fa1196a59e192352d76c0f6e73167046b9d37b8302b6bb6968dfd279b767 is weird
1287 2013-10-23 15:20:39 <gmaxwell> 01:21 < swulf--> not sure why it's even valid
1288 2013-10-23 15:20:39 <gmaxwell> 01:26 <@gmaxwell> swulf--: why wouldn't it be?
1289 2013-10-23 15:20:39 <gmaxwell> 01:26 <@gmaxwell> scriptpubkeys are only parsed on spend.
1290 2013-10-23 15:21:37 <lianj> gmaxwell: thanks. bummer for serialization roundtrips though :D
1291 2013-10-23 15:22:28 <sipa> ?
1292 2013-10-23 15:23:26 <lianj> like a blockexplorer or roundtrips from to json / from json
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1298 2013-10-23 15:34:22 <TD> interesting
1299 2013-10-23 15:34:26 <TD> someone managed to make a script that nothing renders?
1300 2013-10-23 15:34:33 <TD> i wonder what the outputs contain
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1308 2013-10-23 15:40:46 <lianj> TD: nothing, just breaking the parser
1309 2013-10-23 15:41:00 <TD> oh, literally empty
1310 2013-10-23 15:42:15 <lianj> like OP_PUSHDATA[01] with no content etc
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1323 2013-10-23 15:52:09 <jouke> lianj: Abe has problems with that transaction as well :)
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1325 2013-10-23 15:54:06 <lianj> bc.i's error is best
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1340 2013-10-23 16:14:04 <dobry-den> jegz: i gotcha.
1341 2013-10-23 16:14:27 <dobry-den> jegz: that pursuit inspired me to work on my current project
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1363 2013-10-23 16:40:26 <warren> gmaxwell: jgarzik_: I asked spot if submitting the documentation detailing how secp256k1 is not covered by <known patents> will help them to review it, he said "probably".  secp256k1 was split into this new ticket, could you please re-post your summary here? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1021898  If the documentation is sensitive I might suggest submitting it to their legal directly.
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1370 2013-10-23 16:43:34 <petertodd> lianj: the tx has truncated PUSHDATA's in every possible form if you decode it by hand
1371 2013-10-23 16:44:06 <petertodd> llanj: yeah, you can't do serialization round-trips at all currently due to the different pushdata forms
1372 2013-10-23 16:44:13 <TD> petertodd: did you see this paper? http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/49318d3f56c1d525aabf7fda78b23fc0/P2P2013_041.pdf
1373 2013-10-23 16:44:26 <TD> it's all about block sizes, propagation delays and the impact on chain forking
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1375 2013-10-23 16:45:00 <lianj> petertodd: i did, and found a workaround for serialization round-trips
1376 2013-10-23 16:45:22 <petertodd> TD: yah, it's on old data, though I made some very rough calculations and the basic idea seems to apply still
1377 2013-10-23 16:46:10 <TD> i like christian but i found this paper somewhat disappointing. the data collection is good, but they missed a lot of ways to improve things. no mention of always relaying bloom filtered blocks, or analysis of why accepting transactions is slow.
1378 2013-10-23 16:46:23 <TD> perhaps we should take out inv broadcasts for transactions though
1379 2013-10-23 16:46:28 <sipa> TD: afaik, the measurements are from before 0.8 even
1380 2013-10-23 16:46:37 <TD> ah
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1382 2013-10-23 16:46:39 <sipa> unless they were updated
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1385 2013-10-23 16:46:44 <TD> block height 180,000-200,000 i think
1386 2013-10-23 16:46:52 <TD> i don't recall the height when 0.8 was released
1387 2013-10-23 16:46:58 <TD> really we need ongoing analytics like that
1388 2013-10-23 16:47:28 <TD> i was hoping jgarzik_ would write a tool to plot graphs like that on an ongoing basis but i guess he got swallowed by bitpays internal work     o_o
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1390 2013-10-23 16:47:51 <sipa> v0.8.0 was tagged on feb 18th
1391 2013-10-23 16:48:19 <TD> oh, wow
1392 2013-10-23 16:48:23 <TD> 180k was more than a year ago
1393 2013-10-23 16:48:26 <petertodd> TD: right, but a lot of those improvements aren't trust free, which complicates things re: mining strategies. (though note how TXO commitments *really* could make this stuff non-uniform; a minimum guarantees UTXO set may be a nice thing to have, although hard to really make into a true protocol rule)
1394 2013-10-23 16:48:27 <TD> time passes so quickly
1395 2013-10-23 16:48:32 <lianj> petertodd: also something like "M\x01\x00"" was missing
1396 2013-10-23 16:48:48 <TD> so yeah i guess propagation is looking a lot healthier these days
1397 2013-10-23 16:49:15 <TD> that would explain the absence of mention of bloom filtering :)
1398 2013-10-23 16:49:30 <lianj> there are some script that not even have a wrong length payload but no payload at all after its length field
1399 2013-10-23 16:49:43 <petertodd> TD: my numbers weren't that it was much different re: blocks
1400 2013-10-23 16:49:53 <petertodd> lianj: yeah, you mean pushdata's
1401 2013-10-23 16:49:56 <sipa> well bloom filtering doesn't help propagation among full nodes
1402 2013-10-23 16:50:03 <lianj> yes
1403 2013-10-23 16:50:19 <TD> no but i mean, by simply making full-match filters the default, it would do
1404 2013-10-23 16:50:22 <sipa> ah, the full filter approach could help, actually, by not resending txn that are already known
1405 2013-10-23 16:50:27 <TD> and that'd be a nice bandwidth saving
1406 2013-10-23 16:50:56 <TD> given that blocks have to criss-cross the world many times to fully flood the network, and relaying is serial, i guess reducing bandwidth for a new block can reduce propagation delay significantly
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1409 2013-10-23 16:52:25 <petertodd> TD: well you need the inverse to our current bloom filters actually... you want to match on what the other side doesn't have, with 0% false positives
1410 2013-10-23 16:52:33 <petertodd> bbl
1411 2013-10-23 16:52:49 <TD> that's what the bloom code already does. it watches what you've announced and pushes a merkle block followed by the transactions you're missing
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1413 2013-10-23 16:53:15 <TD> perhaps referring to it as bloom filtering is misleading. there's no filtering. it's just a way to re-use the existing code that sends loose transactions after a merkleblock message
1414 2013-10-23 16:53:29 <petertodd> oh, right, good call
1415 2013-10-23 16:53:49 <sipa> yeah, i don't think there's a disadvantage to doing that
1416 2013-10-23 16:54:05 <sipa> it's limited by the degree of seen-txid retention your peer is willing to do
1417 2013-10-23 16:54:56 <kuzetsa> is that amount even configurable?
1418 2013-10-23 16:55:00 <petertodd> sipa: the disadvantages are all second-order effects by the perverse miner strategies, and network failure modes that it makes possible
1419 2013-10-23 16:55:06 <petertodd> alrrhgt, I really gotta go :P
1420 2013-10-23 16:55:06 <kuzetsa> (how much seen-txid retension a node does)
1421 2013-10-23 16:55:12 <sipa> kuzetsa: no
1422 2013-10-23 16:56:11 <sipa> ah, actually, yes
1423 2013-10-23 16:56:20 <sipa> it's the number of kilobytes send buffer
1424 2013-10-23 16:56:27 <sipa> so by default the last 1000 tixdsa
1425 2013-10-23 16:56:29 <sipa> txids
1426 2013-10-23 16:56:36 <kuzetsa> hmm
1427 2013-10-23 16:57:16 <TD> we could easily fix that though
1428 2013-10-23 16:57:35 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
1429 2013-10-23 17:00:28 <kuzetsa> it's not clear to me why these defaults were selected: -maxreceivebuffer=<n>  Maximum per-connection receive buffer, <n>*1000 bytes (default: 5000) /// -maxsendbuffer=<n>     Maximum per-connection send buffer, <n>*1000 bytes (default: 1000)
1430 2013-10-23 17:01:11 <kuzetsa> or what an increase or decrease of either one might improve or harm
1431 2013-10-23 17:02:47 <kuzetsa> whoa, 10 megabytes each? --> https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/commit/f36b494aebcfe4cc6a45003520ee7d15eeaba8df
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1433 2013-10-23 17:04:06 <TD> because we got ourselves into a bad state where bitcoind wasn't able to serve the block chain
1434 2013-10-23 17:04:25 <TD> the "send buffer" is an artifact of the single-threaded nature of how bitcoin is written. the send buf has to be sized to be able to fit the maximum response into it
1435 2013-10-23 17:04:49 <TD> heck, even 10mb is probably too small these days
1436 2013-10-23 17:05:30 <TD> that's a good point actually
1437 2013-10-23 17:05:36 <kuzetsa> but the defaults in 0.8.5 (I cut-copy-pasted above) says it's 1mb and 5mb respectively
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1439 2013-10-23 17:06:00 <kuzetsa> or is the in-built help just a liar and the defaults aren't what it says they are
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1462 2013-10-23 17:31:38 <Ascendion> *** sigh *** giving up on a reasonable bitcoin client as library implementation in C# -- gonna poll bitcoind for what I need :(
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1464 2013-10-23 17:32:45 <TD> Ascendion: you could use bitcoinj via IKVM too
1465 2013-10-23 17:32:54 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: !
1466 2013-10-23 17:32:58 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: where have you been?
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1468 2013-10-23 17:33:15 <Ascendion> up to my ass in RL problems and a new job
1469 2013-10-23 17:33:29 <Luke-Jr> >_< glad to see you back (hopefully with those problems resolved..)
1470 2013-10-23 17:33:42 <Ascendion> not 100% resolved but on the way to resolving them
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1472 2013-10-23 17:34:12 <Ascendion> might even have time to finish the mining board one of the days
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1481 2013-10-23 17:38:03 TD is now known as TD[away]
1482 2013-10-23 17:38:07 <Ascendion> TD -- is bitcoinj up to date -- and I mean VERY up to date ??
1483 2013-10-23 17:38:33 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
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1488 2013-10-23 17:41:11 <Ascendion> here is my problem -- I want to implement a client with a sql database backing store for the blockchain and transactions (and also for multiple wallets but thats later)... BitcoinSharp (fail - outdated or something) was based on BitcoinJ
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1491 2013-10-23 17:42:20 <Ascendion> BitcoinSharp had an interface for defining custom storage for the blockchain.. I'd need to be able to hook that with my c# based storage if I attempted this with BitcoinJ
1492 2013-10-23 17:42:36 <Belxjander> Ascendion: I've been considering implimenting a BitCoin Wallet for AmigaOS myself... and need to look at receiving and sending transactions myself along with blockchain storage
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1494 2013-10-23 17:42:58 <Ascendion> god how old is your hardware ??
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1496 2013-10-23 17:43:41 <Ascendion> or are you running emulation ??
1497 2013-10-23 17:43:44 <Belxjander> Ascendion: what? because of the name you assume the age?  my hardware is actually new and entirely PPC based
1498 2013-10-23 17:44:06 <Belxjander> Ascendion: PowerPC AMCC440EP processor
1499 2013-10-23 17:44:23 <Belxjander> and running the AmigaOS *native*
1500 2013-10-23 17:44:57 <Ascendion> otay -- if dats what bakes your cookies :)
1501 2013-10-23 17:45:03 <Belxjander> see www.acube-systems.biz << they show the boards with links to www.hyperion-entertainment.biz who make the OS
1502 2013-10-23 17:45:06 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: AmigaOS is still maintained and sold, IIRC
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1504 2013-10-23 17:45:19 <Ascendion> I'm looking at the amigaOS website now
1505 2013-10-23 17:45:33 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: yes it is... actively developed... "AmiWest 2013" was this week too
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1507 2013-10-23 17:46:00 <CircusPeanut> test
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1509 2013-10-23 17:46:48 <Ascendion> Belxjander -- if its got dev tools it shouldn't be TOO horrible of a job to port bitcoind over
1510 2013-10-23 17:47:08 <Belxjander> Ascendion: well the first challenge is being able to *read* the code
1511 2013-10-23 17:47:15 <Belxjander> and I don't comprehend C++ very well
1512 2013-10-23 17:47:26 <Ascendion> why read it ?? does amigaOS have a gcc toolchain ??
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1514 2013-10-23 17:47:33 <Luke-Jr> it's too bad the best free GPUs are Intel :<
1515 2013-10-23 17:47:39 <Belxjander> Ascendion: GCC yes, POSIX = no
1516 2013-10-23 17:47:52 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: "free" GPU?
1517 2013-10-23 17:48:02 <Ascendion> that shouldnt be THAT much of an issue -- just have to rework the threading most likely
1518 2013-10-23 17:48:26 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: well, free on the software end
1519 2013-10-23 17:48:31 <Belxjander> Ascendion: the "boost" library on AmigaOS is too old and not compiled with the same settings as bitcoind
1520 2013-10-23 17:48:51 <Ascendion> so build a new one :)
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1522 2013-10-23 17:49:07 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: the dev handling AmigaOS Radeon and RadeonHD drivers is getting official support afaik
1523 2013-10-23 17:49:14 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: C isn't very portable without some POSIX
1524 2013-10-23 17:49:18 <Luke-Jr> even Windows has some POSIX
1525 2013-10-23 17:49:42 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: well, I'd only be interested in the hardware, as AmigaOS is non-free too :P
1526 2013-10-23 17:50:02 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: Radeons have sub-par free software support unfortunately
1527 2013-10-23 17:50:11 <Luke-Jr> it's not *bad*, but it isn't as good as Intel GPUs
1528 2013-10-23 17:50:14 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: well that is certainly an option... since you don't need to install the OS license disk that comes with the board
1529 2013-10-23 17:50:34 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: any of those Intel GPUs on PCI or PCIe16 cards ?
1530 2013-10-23 17:50:43 <Luke-Jr> no :<
1531 2013-10-23 17:50:48 <Luke-Jr> that's the problem
1532 2013-10-23 17:51:04 <Belxjander> Intel only bundles them as CPU built-in modules ?
1533 2013-10-23 17:51:09 <Luke-Jr> they're all integrated in Intel CPUs
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1536 2013-10-23 17:51:38 <Ascendion> anyway -- I'll look at BitcoinJ if I dont get anywhere cloning the blockchain and transactions to my database using bitcoind/jsonrpc
1537 2013-10-23 17:51:43 * Luke-Jr wishes Intel would release specs for the microcode so someone could port PPC to their chips XD
1538 2013-10-23 17:51:59 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: parsing the blockchain is easy
1539 2013-10-23 17:52:01 <Belxjander> right... standard "embrace and extend 101" for trying to tie the users and lock them into the family of products by the most subtle means possible
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1541 2013-10-23 17:52:43 <Ascendion> luke -- there is at least one PPC implementation for FPGA that I'm aware of .. dunno if its free but its out there
1542 2013-10-23 17:53:02 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: not what I mean :p
1543 2013-10-23 17:53:10 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: I mean turning an Intel CPU into a PPC architecture
1544 2013-10-23 17:53:42 <Luke-Jr> there's microcode emulating x86 right now; no reason AFAIK a PPC variant couldn't be made if people had specs
1545 2013-10-23 17:54:13 <Ascendion> I seriously doubt the PPC and X86 chips use compatible microcode on identical internal logic
1546 2013-10-23 17:54:26 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: and play with the "secret sauce"?
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1552 2013-10-23 17:59:02 <Belxjander> Ascendion: have you looked at the picocoin git repository?
1553 2013-10-23 18:00:16 <CircusPeanut> I am implementing dumpprivkey(address) in the Armory Daemon. I noticed that it will not return the root private key for a wallet because that is keyed with "ROOT". I want dumpprivkey to work like the Bitcoin Daemon version and I want to be able to get the root private key. Suggestions?
1554 2013-10-23 18:00:58 <CircusPeanut> I'm leaning towards just making a new method called dumprootprivkey()
1555 2013-10-23 18:01:04 <dobry-den> The Bitcoin wiki does a great job of voluntarily annotating the reference spec. What is the state of the spec? Is there any work towards deliberating one?
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1560 2013-10-23 18:03:11 <dobry-den> I'm not even so sure what delineates a reference implementation from a spec. I suppose it's when any sort of arbitrary/inherited cruft has been removed from a system.
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1565 2013-10-23 18:07:11 <jgarzik> a reference implementation works. a spec is a rough guide to something that might work, after you learn all the lessons not mentioned in the spec.
1566 2013-10-23 18:07:17 <jgarzik> that's the difference.
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1569 2013-10-23 18:08:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|dobry-den: some conversation has been happening on the mailing list about thy
1570 2013-10-23 18:08:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That*
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1573 2013-10-23 18:09:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think the archives are online somewhere, you can take a look
1574 2013-10-23 18:09:58 <dobry-den> I'll check out the discourse
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1583 2013-10-23 18:12:18 <dobry-den> jgarzik: reference implementation works at the expense of ease of implementation
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1585 2013-10-23 18:12:59 <dobry-den> the uncertainty of what's a bug and what's a feature being the killer
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1596 2013-10-23 18:24:39 <warren> hmm, anyone know how get the unit tests to print debug info to the console?
1597 2013-10-23 18:24:45 <warren> where is output currently redirected to?
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1603 2013-10-23 18:41:05 <helo> dobry-den: with bitcoin, an implementation bug must sometimes be considered a feature as far as alternative implementations are concerned
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1606 2013-10-23 18:41:32 <helo> dobry-den: i.e. if they don't implement the bug, they will be incompatible and broken
1607 2013-10-23 18:43:57 <edcba> dobry-den: what kind of bug/features are you talking about ?
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1626 2013-10-23 19:03:45 <dobry-den> helo: Right, that's what I'm referring to.
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1628 2013-10-23 19:04:44 <helo> dobry-den: if there had been a spec, it would just have to be updated to reflect these kinds of bugs in the implementation, so it's not really very useful
1629 2013-10-23 19:05:59 <dobry-den> Sure, but wouldn't a spec demystify what is intentional and what is not?
1630 2013-10-23 19:06:04 <helo> ideally a perfect implementation of a perfect spec would be written. but barring exactly that, we're stuck in the present situation.
1631 2013-10-23 19:06:48 <dobry-den> Of course, I'm not lamenting the lack of a spec. This topic started because I asked if there was any talk of arriving at one that I could check out.
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1643 2013-10-23 19:15:21 <Ascendion> Belxjander -- might look at it (picocoin) later but I'm more interested in a library rather than a full client I'd have to strip down -- BitcoinRPCSharp seems able to get me all I need at the expense of running a local bitcoind and having to poll for updates... bitcoinj is my 2nd alternative
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1649 2013-10-23 19:18:29 <shripadk> Hello all!
1650 2013-10-23 19:18:44 <Ascendion> grrr @ shripadk :)
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1652 2013-10-23 19:20:16 <shripadk> I have a question: Why is it that in createrawtransaction a return address need to be provided while in sendtoaddress there is no need for one? From inspecting the txid of the two transactions I noticed that sendtoaddress doesn't use createrawtransaction under the hood.
1653 2013-10-23 19:20:23 <shripadk> Ascendion: :)
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1655 2013-10-23 19:22:40 <Luke-Jr> shripadk: huh? there is no return address in createrawtransaction..
1656 2013-10-23 19:23:13 <Luke-Jr> and there's a huge difference between createRAWtransaction and end-user methods like sendtoaddress
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1658 2013-10-23 19:24:06 <shripadk> Luke-Jr: By return address i mean this: If the sum of all unspent inputs > outputs then the difference goes as fees right? So if I want to pay 0.0001BTC as fee, I would have to provide a "return" address (address generated via getnewaddress) so that the change is returned to that address.
1659 2013-10-23 19:24:20 <Luke-Jr> oh, the change address
1660 2013-10-23 19:24:33 <shripadk> sorry ! change address is correct terminology
1661 2013-10-23 19:24:37 <Luke-Jr> shripadk: well, that's because it's a raw command :p
1662 2013-10-23 19:24:58 <shripadk> please explain the difference between createrawtransaction and sendtoaddress
1663 2013-10-23 19:25:12 <shripadk> i'm more interested in the coin selection mechanism used by sendtoaddress
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1665 2013-10-23 19:25:57 <Luke-Jr> shripadk: createrawtransaction is a low-level tool; sendtoaddress is a more end-user tool
1666 2013-10-23 19:27:02 <shripadk> Luke-Jr: how does sendtoaddress send the exact amount specified? I always thought that the amount is dictated by unspent inputs (which can be same or greater but never lesser).
1667 2013-10-23 19:27:29 <Luke-Jr> shripadk: it creates a change address behind the scenes
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1669 2013-10-23 19:28:28 <shripadk> Luke-Jr: okay thanks :) so I was confused mainly because of the way getransaction JSON-RPC command reports transaction information
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1672 2013-10-23 19:30:17 <shripadk> Luke-Jr: if you perform a transaction using sendtoaddress, gettransaction  doesn't report the change address used (even the UI doesn't update the balance).. example: if I send 50BTC, and my balance is 100BTC… behind the scenes, input used is 62.5BTC and change returned is 12.4BTC (with 0.1BTC fee), the UI should get updated with the new balance right (until it receives 1 confirmation)?
1673 2013-10-23 19:31:01 <shripadk> Luke-Jr: whereas If I use createrawtransaction and broadcast it, the UI updates correctly showing lower balance and only updates to the correct balance when the change has been returned
1674 2013-10-23 19:31:30 <Luke-Jr> shripadk: your own transactions are considered confirmed immediately
1675 2013-10-23 19:31:43 <Luke-Jr> not sure why that doesn't work with createrawtransaction
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1679 2013-10-23 19:32:54 <shripadk> Luke-Jr: it doesn't though… for instance I just sent 4BTC to address X with 30BTC as change and the UI is showing "Unconfirmed: 30 BTC"
1680 2013-10-23 19:33:11 <shripadk> Luke-Jr: I have to wait for at least 1 confirmation for the UI to correct itself
1681 2013-10-23 19:33:23 <Luke-Jr> hm
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1683 2013-10-23 19:35:18 daybyter has joined
1684 2013-10-23 19:36:24 <shripadk> Luke-Jr: even get balance reports the wrong balance
1685 2013-10-23 19:36:31 <shripadk> is this a bug??
1686 2013-10-23 19:37:57 <Luke-Jr> shripadk: maybe
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1693 2013-10-23 19:44:31 <phantomcircuit> shripadk, there is a bug with calculating the balance for unconfirmed transactions paid to yourself
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1695 2013-10-23 19:44:40 <phantomcircuit> in certain circumstances it can even display a negative balance
1696 2013-10-23 19:45:14 <shripadk> phantomcircuit: okay thanks for letting me know :) is this documented somewhere?
1697 2013-10-23 19:45:23 <phantomcircuit> not that i know
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1699 2013-10-23 19:46:37 <shripadk> phantomcircuit: so even if i have 0 balance and some X BTC in unconfirmed transactions, I can broadcast transactions right?
1700 2013-10-23 19:46:53 Coincidental has joined
1701 2013-10-23 19:47:15 <shripadk> when I say "broadcast transactions"  I mean regular transactions via sendtoaddress
1702 2013-10-23 19:47:43 <phantomcircuit> yeah the coin selection algorithm will use unconfirmed outputs if it has to
1703 2013-10-23 19:48:27 dparrish_ has joined
1704 2013-10-23 19:48:37 <shripadk> thanks then that settles my worries… its more a cosmetic bug than anything else!
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1719 2013-10-23 20:01:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: new, decentralized, alternative to blockchain over satellite that you may be able to help us implement: http://www.nasa.gov/press/2013/october/nasa-laser-communication-system-sets-record-with-data-transmissions-to-and-from/#.UmgqcdU5Bfx
1720 2013-10-23 20:01:32 Musk has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
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1723 2013-10-23 20:02:40 * petertodd wonders how long until the FCC starts regulating allocations for laser moon bounce target patch real-estate.
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1727 2013-10-23 20:07:02 <jgarzik> petertodd, heh
1728 2013-10-23 20:08:36 jevin has joined
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1730 2013-10-23 20:10:26 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell
1731 2013-10-23 20:10:30 <skinnkavaj> what has been changed regardign BIP?
1732 2013-10-23 20:11:11 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1733 2013-10-23 20:12:05 <jgarzik> petertodd, sadly, the fancy new lasers could boost the nanosat cost far above $60,000
1734 2013-10-23 20:12:56 torsthaldo has joined
1735 2013-10-23 20:13:20 <petertodd> jgarzik: how so?
1736 2013-10-23 20:13:34 <jgarzik> petertodd, because fancy == expensive
1737 2013-10-23 20:14:02 <petertodd> jgarzik: oh no, see in this system, you don't need a nanosat at all!
1738 2013-10-23 20:14:29 <petertodd> jgarzik: just shoot a laser at the moon, and anyone with a telescope and light->data demodulator gets to turn it back into the blockchain
1739 2013-10-23 20:14:47 <Thepok> wow thats cool
1740 2013-10-23 20:14:54 <jgarzik> petertodd, I spec'd out a nanosat + launch costs, presuming a typical high density PODS rideshare launch.  The transceiver does something like 16 KB/sec, rather low tech.
1741 2013-10-23 20:15:02 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1742 2013-10-23 20:15:04 <jgarzik> just broadcasting the latest block, over and over
1743 2013-10-23 20:15:14 <petertodd> jgarzik: ha, nice
1744 2013-10-23 20:15:16 <Thepok> not only lastblocks
1745 2013-10-23 20:15:28 <Thepok> should alternate between last block and old blocks
1746 2013-10-23 20:15:40 <petertodd> jgarzik: see sounds like this stuff is actually high bandwidth, so doing whole blocks would be trivial, even fast enough for mining against it
1747 2013-10-23 20:15:41 <jgarzik> sure, or latest transactions, or...
1748 2013-10-23 20:15:45 <Thepok> or checkblocks
1749 2013-10-23 20:15:57 <petertodd> jgarzik: which also means you could have multiple senders...
1750 2013-10-23 20:15:58 <Thepok> at least last checkpoint
1751 2013-10-23 20:16:17 Subo1977_ has joined
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1753 2013-10-23 20:17:52 <helo> moon not geosync :/
1754 2013-10-23 20:18:06 <jgarzik> petertodd, ideally you have more than one nanosat, with all the bitcoin zillionaires out there ;p
1755 2013-10-23 20:18:14 <jgarzik> multiple... everything
1756 2013-10-23 20:18:52 <jgarzik> stick some mining chips in the nanosat to generate heat and revenue both!     (j/k)
1757 2013-10-23 20:19:20 <Thepok> most stupid miner ever;D
1758 2013-10-23 20:20:08 <petertodd> jgarzik: access to launch vehicles is probably less decentralized than access to lasers and telescopes :)
1759 2013-10-23 20:22:48 mappum has joined
1760 2013-10-23 20:23:46 <Thepok> some heliumballons may be cheaper
1761 2013-10-23 20:23:56 <Thepok> and you could repair tham
1762 2013-10-23 20:24:06 <Thepok> if the tech somehow fails
1763 2013-10-23 20:24:25 <Thepok> like the google baloon internettech
1764 2013-10-23 20:26:05 <jgarzik> balloons are great, going over 60 miles IIRC
1765 2013-10-23 20:26:16 <jgarzik> unfortunately that is cheap balloon X many launches
1766 2013-10-23 20:26:18 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1767 2013-10-23 20:27:07 <jgarzik> every now and then an amateur will send a smartphone 60+ miles up, with a balloon
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1785 2013-10-23 20:45:24 <goodbtc> Q: how can I remove a private key from my wallet? (it is compromised)
1786 2013-10-23 20:46:11 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
1787 2013-10-23 20:46:46 <sipa> why do you need to remove it?
1788 2013-10-23 20:47:11 <sipa> (there is no automatic way to remove a key... too risky for losing coins)
1789 2013-10-23 20:47:11 <goodbtc> i accidentally used it to receive coins
1790 2013-10-23 20:47:35 <goodbtc> and those vanished as soon as it were received
1791 2013-10-23 20:47:41 CircusPeanut has joined
1792 2013-10-23 20:47:56 <goodbtc> I wish to save a copy of my wallet 'clean'
1793 2013-10-23 20:48:10 <goodbtc> (I could export the rest of the keys and build a new wallet)
1794 2013-10-23 20:48:41 dparrish_ has joined
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1796 2013-10-23 20:48:47 <sipa> in git head, there is a dumpwallet and importwallet command
1797 2013-10-23 20:48:55 <sipa> which export/import to a human readable format
1798 2013-10-23 20:49:55 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1799 2013-10-23 20:50:25 <goodbtc> i guess I will do it manually key by key (I have only 6 addresses to save)
1800 2013-10-23 20:51:33 <sipa> did you include all change addresses?
1801 2013-10-23 20:51:38 bambeleme_ has joined
1802 2013-10-23 20:51:43 <goodbtc> nope :(
1803 2013-10-23 20:51:50 <goodbtc> damn, you're right
1804 2013-10-23 20:52:52 <goodbtc> I could move all coins to a new address thou :)
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1834 2013-10-23 21:19:32 <swulf--> why would bitcoind stall on blockchain downloading?  been stalled at 265537 for a while
1835 2013-10-23 21:20:45 <sipa> define 'a while' ?
1836 2013-10-23 21:20:50 <sipa> multiple minutes is very common
1837 2013-10-23 21:20:52 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1838 2013-10-23 21:21:04 <sipa> the download mechanism is quite stupid and often gets confused
1839 2013-10-23 21:21:09 <swulf--> hmm
1840 2013-10-23 21:21:16 <swulf--> ~20 minutes I guess
1841 2013-10-23 21:21:21 <sipa> ;;tslb
1842 2013-10-23 21:21:21 <swulf--> oh weird
1843 2013-10-23 21:21:23 <swulf--> there it goes
1844 2013-10-23 21:21:24 <gribble> Time since last block: 13 minutes and 39 seconds
1845 2013-10-23 21:21:33 <sipa> usuaully a new block on the network gets it going again
1846 2013-10-23 21:21:37 <swulf--> ahh
1847 2013-10-23 21:21:39 <swulf--> ok
1848 2013-10-23 21:21:51 <swulf--> guessing a new block just came out then
1849 2013-10-23 21:21:52 <sipa> (i'm working on rewriting that code, but it requires significant changes)
1850 2013-10-23 21:21:52 <swulf--> ;;tslb
1851 2013-10-23 21:21:55 <gribble> Time since last block: 58 seconds ago
1852 2013-10-23 21:21:58 <swulf--> yup
1853 2013-10-23 21:23:28 <swulf--> InvalidChainFound: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
1854 2013-10-23 21:24:22 <sipa> crap
1855 2013-10-23 21:24:26 <sipa> your database is corrupted...
1856 2013-10-23 21:24:57 <swulf--> this happens quite often for me..
1857 2013-10-23 21:25:10 <sipa> :(
1858 2013-10-23 21:25:31 prophet10x has joined
1859 2013-10-23 21:28:09 <swulf--> Maybe it doesn't happen as often to other people, but if this is a really serious issue that corrupts a 10GB database, why is there no move to get away from LevelDB?
1860 2013-10-23 21:30:25 <sipa> the database is just 250 MB
1861 2013-10-23 21:30:36 <swulf--> which directory is it in?
1862 2013-10-23 21:30:39 <sipa> chainstate
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1864 2013-10-23 21:30:56 <sipa> there is no reason to move away from it, as there it is unclear what the cause is
1865 2013-10-23 21:31:06 <sipa> with BDB with certainly had similar complaints
1866 2013-10-23 21:31:24 <swulf--> if i have a known working copy of chainstate, i can replace it and finish a blockchain sync instead of a full -reindex ?
1867 2013-10-23 21:31:24 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1868 2013-10-23 21:31:29 <sipa> yes
1869 2013-10-23 21:31:34 <sipa> you can just copy the chainstate even
1870 2013-10-23 21:31:51 <swulf--> cool, because the blocks dir is huge and the backups too large
1871 2013-10-23 21:31:52 <sipa> (not while the program is running)
1872 2013-10-23 21:32:05 <sipa> the only requirement is that the chainstate is not newer than the blocks dir
1873 2013-10-23 21:32:16 <swulf--> which should be the case
1874 2013-10-23 21:32:24 <sipa> (it cannot refer to a block that is not known)
1875 2013-10-23 21:32:32 <swulf--> makes sense
1876 2013-10-23 21:32:58 <sipa> it will rebuild the chainstate up to the point where the blocks dir is, at startup then
1877 2013-10-23 21:33:06 <sipa> which may mean that startup is really slow
1878 2013-10-23 21:33:14 <sipa> even hours if you'd do it from scratch
1879 2013-10-23 21:33:33 <sipa> s/rebuild/complete/
1880 2013-10-23 21:33:43 <swulf--> i'm only off by a few hundred blocks so it wouldn't be bad
1881 2013-10-23 21:34:20 <sipa> right
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1900 2013-10-23 22:04:05 <jegz> what's the maximum length of 'account'?
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1905 2013-10-23 22:06:27 <Anduck> hmm..
1906 2013-10-23 22:06:43 <Anduck> is there a way to make sendmany send to some "change address"?
1907 2013-10-23 22:07:34 <Anduck> if i got X amount of coins in the wallet and i want them all to be at same address.. if i sendmany from that X amount, is it ok if i just make 1 more sendmany output with (X - sent coins) so there's 0 change?
1908 2013-10-23 22:07:42 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1909 2013-10-23 22:08:04 <sipa> yes, though accounting for fee may be hard
1910 2013-10-23 22:08:19 <sipa> but why?
1911 2013-10-23 22:08:40 <sipa> if you want all of the wa
1912 2013-10-23 22:09:03 <sipa> llet's value in a single coin, just send everything to one address
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1914 2013-10-23 22:10:36 deepc0re has quit (Quit: deepc0re)
1915 2013-10-23 22:10:55 <Anduck> i mean..
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1918 2013-10-23 22:11:16 <sipa> ah, you mean while doing a transaction?
1919 2013-10-23 22:11:23 <Anduck> i got X amount of coins in 1 address and i just want to send some of the balance out (i want the balance to be verifiable via blockchain)
1920 2013-10-23 22:11:37 <Anduck> yea
1921 2013-10-23 22:11:54 <sipa> why would change not be verifiable?
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1923 2013-10-23 22:14:38 <Anduck> if the change coins are sent to some random address
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1926 2013-10-23 22:15:28 <sipa> well you know which address, if needed
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1929 2013-10-23 22:17:00 <Anduck> yeah..
1930 2013-10-23 22:17:31 <Anduck> but is there a way to send change back to origin address?
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1932 2013-10-23 22:17:34 <Anduck> with sendmany
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1934 2013-10-23 22:18:05 <jegz> is there like a single magical wiki page somewhere that gives me all the hard limits on all the data stored for a transaction in bitcoind?
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1941 2013-10-23 22:22:12 <sipa> Anduck: using the raw transaction api you can do what you want
1942 2013-10-23 22:22:21 <Anduck> hmm ok
1943 2013-10-23 22:22:27 <sipa> Anduck: not using regu
1944 2013-10-23 22:22:38 <BlueMatt> sipa: do you ever sleep?
1945 2013-10-23 22:22:49 <sipa> lar transaction creation, as it follows best practice to never reuse an address
1946 2013-10-23 22:22:56 <sipa> BlueMatt: certainly!
1947 2013-10-23 22:23:06 <BlueMatt> somehow I dont believe that
1948 2013-10-23 22:23:11 <jegz> are my questions so tough?? :p
1949 2013-10-23 22:23:13 <sipa> between 3am and 9am or so
1950 2013-10-23 22:23:17 porquilho has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1951 2013-10-23 22:23:24 <BlueMatt> either that or the sipa on irc is a bot designed to look like sipa
1952 2013-10-23 22:23:35 <sipa> jegz: what limits are you talking about?
1953 2013-10-23 22:23:39 porquilho has joined
1954 2013-10-23 22:23:44 <jegz> sipa: like the length of strings and such
1955 2013-10-23 22:23:50 <sipa> jegz: accounts are just local database things, they can be huge
1956 2013-10-23 22:23:56 <sipa> i suppose megabytes
1957 2013-10-23 22:24:00 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1958 2013-10-23 22:24:02 <jegz> for a single account name?
1959 2013-10-23 22:24:03 MiningBuddy has joined
1960 2013-10-23 22:24:06 <sipa> yes
1961 2013-10-23 22:24:07 mbelshe2 has joined
1962 2013-10-23 22:24:10 <jegz> oh
1963 2013-10-23 22:24:23 <jegz> ok there is some data i get back from listtransactions, 'category'
1964 2013-10-23 22:24:30 <jegz> what are all the possible values?
1965 2013-10-23 22:24:39 rng29a has joined
1966 2013-10-23 22:24:41 <sipa> send/receive/generate ?
1967 2013-10-23 22:24:45 <jegz> maybe there's a file in the source you could refer me to
1968 2013-10-23 22:24:49 <jegz> i see
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1977 2013-10-23 22:29:34 <sipa> jegz: wallet.cpp
1978 2013-10-23 22:29:53 <sipa> there may be a separate category for immature coins
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1981 2013-10-23 22:30:36 <jegz> wth is an "immature" coin?
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2003 2013-10-23 22:40:11 <mbelshe_> hello bitcoindev.  is there a way i can verify that a transaction is valid (signatures, etc all done properly) without actually sending it?
2004 2013-10-23 22:40:39 Apocalyptic has joined
2005 2013-10-23 22:40:46 <sipa> i believe signrawtransaction tells you whether it is complete
2006 2013-10-23 22:41:06 <sipa> i'm not entirely sure what that entails, but perhaps it is a full check
2007 2013-10-23 22:42:05 <mbelshe_> ok.  it does do that.  let me futz with that for a bit.  thanks!
2008 2013-10-23 22:43:58 <sipa> it does not fully check, but probably close enough
2009 2013-10-23 22:44:17 <sipa> i suppose it may be fooled by nLockTime or similar things
2010 2013-10-23 22:44:41 <mbelshe_> ok
2011 2013-10-23 22:44:44 <sipa> it does check whether all inputs are available, and signatures are correct
2012 2013-10-23 22:45:11 <sipa> unsure whether it checks outputs or overspending
2013 2013-10-23 22:45:37 <swulf--> InvalidChainFound: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
2014 2013-10-23 22:45:39 <swulf--> happens _AGAIN_
2015 2013-10-23 22:45:44 dooglus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2016 2013-10-23 22:45:57 <sipa> what system are you on?
2017 2013-10-23 22:46:53 <swulf--> linux 3.2.0, debian
2018 2013-10-23 22:48:36 dparrish_ has joined
2019 2013-10-23 22:48:52 <sipa> what type of disk/fs?
2020 2013-10-23 22:49:14 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021 2013-10-23 22:49:35 <sipa> and are you sure you don't have some flaky memory or cpu for example?
2022 2013-10-23 22:49:42 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2023 2013-10-23 22:49:51 <swulf--> well
2024 2013-10-23 22:50:03 <swulf--> it's on a loop-aes fs
2025 2013-10-23 22:50:11 <swulf--> ext4 + aes128
2026 2013-10-23 22:50:28 <swulf--> and i recently rebuilt and got a new machine, new everything, this same issue was happening on it too
2027 2013-10-23 22:50:34 <sipa> hmm, i wonder whether that influences it
2028 2013-10-23 22:50:49 <sipa> the encryption
2029 2013-10-23 22:51:12 <swulf--> bitcoind was running fine for about a month
2030 2013-10-23 22:51:25 <swulf--> today i restarted it, and ever since restarting it's been crapping out
2031 2013-10-23 22:51:26 s7r has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2033 2013-10-23 22:52:01 <swulf--> seems to be related to the higher speed of blocks incoming?
2034 2013-10-23 22:52:20 <swulf--> if it ends up syncing completely then it's usually good for a long time
2035 2013-10-23 22:52:22 <sipa> have you tried runming with -par=1 ?
2036 2013-10-23 22:52:30 <swulf--> what's -par?
2037 2013-10-23 22:52:37 execut3 has joined
2038 2013-10-23 22:52:43 * swulf-- checks
2039 2013-10-23 22:52:55 <sipa> parallellism
2040 2013-10-23 22:53:01 <sipa> for some, it seems to help
2041 2013-10-23 22:53:07 <swulf--> hmm
2042 2013-10-23 22:53:39 dparrish_ has joined
2043 2013-10-23 22:53:40 <swulf--> welp, let's try it
2044 2013-10-23 22:54:06 <swulf--> also kinda wished loading a wallet with 75000 keys didn't take almost an hour :(
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2048 2013-10-23 22:55:16 <sipa> swulf--: an hour? :o
2049 2013-10-23 22:55:25 <swulf--> eh...45 minutes:)
2050 2013-10-23 22:55:53 <sipa> 20ms per key...?
2051 2013-10-23 22:56:01 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2052 2013-10-23 22:56:30 <sipa> anyway, an improvemeny for wallet load time was recently merged
2053 2013-10-23 22:56:46 <sipa> though 20ms per key sounds wextremely slow
2054 2013-10-23 22:57:07 <sipa> ;;calc 45*60/75000
2055 2013-10-23 22:57:07 <gribble> 0.036
2056 2013-10-23 22:57:12 <sipa> 36 even
2057 2013-10-23 22:57:32 <sipa> phantomcircuit: any idea what could cause such loading times?
2058 2013-10-23 22:58:09 <swulf--> i modified my bitcoin build slightly so that it would print out the key index as it reads from the wallet
2059 2013-10-23 22:58:23 <swulf--> so that i at least know there's progress
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2063 2013-10-23 22:59:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, that's about how long it takes to load a wallet that size without the hashing speed up if you're memory constrainted
2064 2013-10-23 22:59:06 <phantomcircuit> constrained
2065 2013-10-23 22:59:23 <sipa> wtf is it doing for 36ms?
2066 2013-10-23 22:59:24 <phantomcircuit> swulf--, what cpu?
2067 2013-10-23 22:59:38 <phantomcircuit> sipa, accessing the disk in the most inefficient way possible
2068 2013-10-23 22:59:46 <edcba> :)
2069 2013-10-23 22:59:47 <swulf--> i think we've had this discussion before - it's an intel atom
2070 2013-10-23 22:59:52 <phantomcircuit> oh
2071 2013-10-23 23:00:08 <sipa> phantomcircuit: how does the hash trick help to avoid inefficient disk access?
2072 2013-10-23 23:00:08 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2073 2013-10-23 23:00:22 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is it possible the check_key call would take ~16ms on an atom?
2074 2013-10-23 23:00:35 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it doesn't really
2075 2013-10-23 23:00:46 <sipa> that seems extremely slow, but i haven't benchmarked it
2076 2013-10-23 23:00:58 <edcba> why loading a key requires cpu ?
2077 2013-10-23 23:01:04 <sipa> i expect at least an order of magnitude more
2078 2013-10-23 23:01:05 <phantomcircuit> it takes about 1ms on an i3
2079 2013-10-23 23:01:11 <edcba> just to verify it's valid ?
2080 2013-10-23 23:01:15 <swulf--> you couldn't make one check_key call per frame and still run a game/movie/video at 60fps
2081 2013-10-23 23:01:15 <phantomcircuit> so i could see it taking much longer on an atom
2082 2013-10-23 23:01:48 <phantomcircuit> edcba, the public key is derived from the private key
2083 2013-10-23 23:01:58 <phantomcircuit> which acts as a checksum
2084 2013-10-23 23:02:12 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i though that on my system the actual ec multiplication takes like 0.1ms
2085 2013-10-23 23:02:39 <phantomcircuit> sipa, iirc i was recording ~500usec per check key call
2086 2013-10-23 23:02:46 <phantomcircuit> and it's called twice
2087 2013-10-23 23:03:28 <swulf--> twice per key?
2088 2013-10-23 23:03:32 <sipa> oh, right it does that redundant check to see if the pubkey is on the curve
2089 2013-10-23 23:04:05 <edcba> can't it load all the keys then do its stuff asynchronously ?
2090 2013-10-23 23:04:05 dparrish_ has joined
2091 2013-10-23 23:04:06 <sipa> which is far more expensive than deriving it from the privkey
2092 2013-10-23 23:04:40 <sipa> iirc libsecp256k1 can check a key in 30us
2093 2013-10-23 23:04:55 <sipa> on an i7 that is
2094 2013-10-23 23:05:23 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2095 2013-10-23 23:05:42 <swulf--> why bother checking at all? could some solution involve merkle-chaining the privkeys and only verifying the chain at load?
2096 2013-10-23 23:05:52 <edcba> indeed
2097 2013-10-23 23:05:56 <edcba> lazy checking
2098 2013-10-23 23:05:58 <sipa> what phantomcircuit did was just add a hash to it
2099 2013-10-23 23:06:01 <sipa> and check the hash
2100 2013-10-23 23:06:09 <sipa> why bother with a merjle tree...?
2101 2013-10-23 23:06:10 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2102 2013-10-23 23:06:11 <swulf--> sure, checksum byte works too :p
2103 2013-10-23 23:06:24 <sipa> authenticated storage is not a problem here
2104 2013-10-23 23:06:35 <swulf--> sure
2105 2013-10-23 23:06:38 <sipa> we trust the entire wallet is stored securely anyway
2106 2013-10-23 23:06:39 porquilho has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2107 2013-10-23 23:06:45 <sipa> (or encrypted)
2108 2013-10-23 23:06:57 <swulf--> sipa; I mean, a single hash wouldn't add noticeably any extra space in the wallet
2109 2013-10-23 23:06:58 <edcba> it helps with robustness though
2110 2013-10-23 23:07:12 <sipa> edcba: no?
2111 2013-10-23 23:07:13 <swulf--> so merkle-chain all the privkeys and compare the final hash, but i guess in this way you don't know which privkey is bad
2112 2013-10-23 23:07:20 <edcba> i mean checking every key
2113 2013-10-23 23:07:29 <sipa> oh yes, sure
2114 2013-10-23 23:07:36 porquilho has joined
2115 2013-10-23 23:09:12 <mbelshe_> if you have a transaction that doesn't get picked up for some reason (but it was valid), so you submit a second transaction which spends the same inputs, is there a chance that both transactions get blocked?
2116 2013-10-23 23:09:15 dparrish_ has joined
2117 2013-10-23 23:09:51 <edcba> there is a chance that you are flagged as a double spender :)
2118 2013-10-23 23:10:05 <edcba> now i don't know if ppl checks that
2119 2013-10-23 23:10:13 <mbelshe_> hrmmm.  is there a way to know if this happens?
2120 2013-10-23 23:10:21 Pengoo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2121 2013-10-23 23:10:27 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2122 2013-10-23 23:10:29 <mbelshe_> what do you do if it does happen?
2123 2013-10-23 23:10:42 <edcba> anyway i don't remember if nodes knowing the first tx will just reject the second one
2124 2013-10-23 23:11:13 <edcba> you can't really do anything ?
2125 2013-10-23 23:11:38 <mbelshe_> i guess you wait for everyone to forget about you and eventually the funds go through?
2126 2013-10-23 23:11:50 <lianj> yes
2127 2013-10-23 23:11:56 <swulf--> aren't orphaned txns dropped after some period of time of not beinf confirmed?
2128 2013-10-23 23:12:14 <lianj> you need to wait until their memorypool removes the old on for the new one to actualy get into the pool
2129 2013-10-23 23:12:33 <swulf--> or hand the new tx over to a miner specifically, like eligius
2130 2013-10-23 23:12:40 <lianj> yes, that too
2131 2013-10-23 23:13:10 <lianj> but he has to manually‎ add it too
2132 2013-10-23 23:13:13 <sipa> mbelshe_: what do you mean by 'blovked' ?
2133 2013-10-23 23:13:13 <mbelshe_> interesting.  so handing specifically to a miner - is that an official thing?  or you just have to know the miner?
2134 2013-10-23 23:13:17 <sipa> blovked
2135 2013-10-23 23:13:21 <sipa> bloCked
2136 2013-10-23 23:13:37 <wizkid057> http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
2137 2013-10-23 23:13:58 <lianj> wizkid057: i don't think that will overwrite his memorypool
2138 2013-10-23 23:13:59 <mbelshe_> well, i'm not sure why my tx is not going through - it validates okay, but isn't getting picked up.  so i'm trying to debug it.  but - i did send two forms of it, and now i am wondering if that screwed up.
2139 2013-10-23 23:14:04 skinnkavaj has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2140 2013-10-23 23:14:16 <sipa> mbelshe_: nah
2141 2013-10-23 23:14:27 <wizkid057> lianj: i was just quickly responding to the "Eligius" highlight line without really reading scrollback
2142 2013-10-23 23:14:30 <mbelshe_> its 100BTC, so i am a bit worried
2143 2013-10-23 23:14:41 <lianj> wizkid057: ah ok
2144 2013-10-23 23:14:49 <sipa> mbelshe_: sent from which spftware?
2145 2013-10-23 23:14:52 <sipa> software
2146 2013-10-23 23:14:54 <mbelshe_> my own.
2147 2013-10-23 23:14:54 <edcba> can we make tx dependants on others ?
2148 2013-10-23 23:15:04 skinnkavaj has joined
2149 2013-10-23 23:15:07 <mbelshe_> :-)
2150 2013-10-23 23:15:09 <sipa> how do you know it is valid?
2151 2013-10-23 23:15:35 <mbelshe_> well, i've been sending lots of txns ok.  i then used bitcoind signrawtransaction <hex> and it says its okay.
2152 2013-10-23 23:15:48 <mbelshe_> but maybe it doesn't check something.
2153 2013-10-23 23:15:58 <mbelshe_> its a P2SH address
2154 2013-10-23 23:15:58 <swulf--> it doesn't verify everything, like fees and script outputs as standard
2155 2013-10-23 23:16:20 <wizkid057> mbelshe_: if it turns out you need a competing txn attempted to be mined, come to #eligius and I can try to help you out
2156 2013-10-23 23:16:32 <sipa> can you paste the transactiom in hex somewhere?
2157 2013-10-23 23:16:39 <swulf--> or the hash?
2158 2013-10-23 23:16:45 <petertodd>  /away
2159 2013-10-23 23:16:54 <mbelshe_> sure - where is a good place to put it?  the hash is this one: a4b15682a998f7478a7364e0e722dbcfde7a65cdb4ef5dc72c66e3a89b54cd36
2160 2013-10-23 23:17:03 <petertodd> wizkid057: what's the fee-per-kb required for non-std tx's btw?
2161 2013-10-23 23:17:17 <wizkid057> petertodd: hmm... its not much, sec
2162 2013-10-23 23:17:21 <sipa> mbelshe_: pastebin or so?
2163 2013-10-23 23:17:26 <petertodd> wizkid057: trying to figure out why dust-b-gone txs aren't getting mined
2164 2013-10-23 23:17:29 <swulf--> doesn't look like it's being relayed
2165 2013-10-23 23:17:48 <wizkid057> petertodd: hmm... are they accepted by Eligius do you know?
2166 2013-10-23 23:17:57 <lianj> paste the hex
2167 2013-10-23 23:18:05 <swulf--> petertodd: didn't think that non-std txns had a different fee (unless thats specific to eligius?)
2168 2013-10-23 23:18:10 <mbelshe_> http://pastebin.com/h0XRENDq
2169 2013-10-23 23:18:16 <wizkid057> swulf--: eligius specific
2170 2013-10-23 23:18:28 <wizkid057> petertodd: Eligius's bitcoind rejects CHBS inputs/outputs, btw
2171 2013-10-23 23:18:28 <petertodd> wizkid057: they are, this tx for instance: 82eab6b0a5e9e66517fd71f973023ecb9c1839bb569514136fe60482f724e174
2172 2013-10-23 23:18:41 <petertodd> wizkid057: CHBS?
2173 2013-10-23 23:18:52 <wizkid057> correct horse batter staple or something
2174 2013-10-23 23:19:02 <wizkid057> the brainwallet spam addr
2175 2013-10-23 23:19:03 <mbelshe_> this one has no fee.  the prior tx which i did did have a fee of 0.0001 on it.  but i fear it got a 'new' small transaction included as an input.  (sorry, i may have made things more complicated in my attempts to debug in the last 2 hrs!)
2176 2013-10-23 23:19:06 <petertodd> wizkid057: ah, yeah, no CHBS involved here
2177 2013-10-23 23:19:13 <swulf--> scriptSig looks weird?
2178 2013-10-23 23:19:28 <wizkid057> petertodd: hmm... txns like that (all to fees) should just be accepted
2179 2013-10-23 23:19:30 <mbelshe_> thats a 2-of-3 p2sh signature
2180 2013-10-23 23:19:37 dparrish_ has joined
2181 2013-10-23 23:19:51 <swulf--> scriptSig, not scriptPubKey
2182 2013-10-23 23:20:06 <wizkid057> you can do a getblocktemplate request to gbt.mining.eligius.st port 9337 to see what we're mining, too
2183 2013-10-23 23:20:06 <swulf--> oh
2184 2013-10-23 23:20:07 <petertodd> wizkid057: odd, because I submitted a bunch of them last night, and only that one got mined. Others with 1mBTC and 0.1mBTC aren't getting mined.
2185 2013-10-23 23:20:09 <mbelshe_> yes, i know.  so there are two sigs in there
2186 2013-10-23 23:20:19 <swulf--> its making use of a 2-of-3 tx
2187 2013-10-23 23:20:24 <mbelshe_> right
2188 2013-10-23 23:20:26 <swulf--> got it
2189 2013-10-23 23:20:42 <wizkid057> petertodd: I think there might be some lower limit on the sum of inputs in place
2190 2013-10-23 23:20:45 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2191 2013-10-23 23:21:04 execut3 has joined
2192 2013-10-23 23:21:09 <mbelshe_> hmm… it just showed up on blockchain....
2193 2013-10-23 23:21:11 <wizkid057> I'd asked if Luke-Jr could patch in an exception for stuff that just outputs all to fees though
2194 2013-10-23 23:21:20 <mbelshe_> i wonder if someone poked something?
2195 2013-10-23 23:21:26 <sipa> mbelshe_: i broadcasted it
2196 2013-10-23 23:21:35 <sipa> through sendrawtransaction
2197 2013-10-23 23:21:51 <mbelshe_> interesting.  thanks, sipa.  i've done that several times, but maybe i'm not well enough connected.
2198 2013-10-23 23:22:09 <mbelshe_> (i broadcasted with confirms from 5 peers tho???)
2199 2013-10-23 23:22:10 <petertodd> wizkid057: yeah, that might be the best way to do it. Maybe just make sure those txs use a specific fee-per-kb and nothing more complex than that. Or if you're feeling really nice, treat them as high-priority. (lots of people want to get rid of single satoshi dust)
2200 2013-10-23 23:22:51 <sipa> mbelshe_: relaying often fails
2201 2013-10-23 23:23:01 <wizkid057> petertodd: i'll put it on my Eligius TODO list :)
2202 2013-10-23 23:23:11 <petertodd> wizkid057: ha, cool
2203 2013-10-23 23:23:34 <sipa> mbelshe_: at least the reference client keeps broadcasting its transactions until they confirm
2204 2013-10-23 23:23:35 <mbelshe_> sipa:  well thats good to know, i have had intermittent weirdness on broadcast.  i must be doing something stupid.
2205 2013-10-23 23:23:53 <mbelshe_> sipa:  how often should you rebroadcast?
2206 2013-10-23 23:24:03 <mbelshe_> (I did rebroadcast once, but not repeatedly)
2207 2013-10-23 23:24:19 feddy3 has joined
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2209 2013-10-23 23:24:34 <sipa> mbelshe_: if you don't change peera, it doesn't really matter
2210 2013-10-23 23:24:35 feddy2 has joined
2211 2013-10-23 23:24:38 <Apocalyptic> iwilcox suggested the reference client does it every 30 minutes
2212 2013-10-23 23:24:43 <sipa> indeed
2213 2013-10-23 23:24:54 dparrish_ has joined
2214 2013-10-23 23:24:59 <sipa> mbelshe_: but a peer never relays the same tramsaction more than once
2215 2013-10-23 23:25:44 <mbelshe_> sips.  i see.  i need to do some serious work then on my peer management.  frick.  one more thing to do!!!
2216 2013-10-23 23:26:46 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2217 2013-10-23 23:26:57 feddy2 has left ()
2218 2013-10-23 23:27:15 <mbelshe_> @sipa - THANKS AGAIN!!!
2219 2013-10-23 23:28:34 feddy3 has joined
2220 2013-10-23 23:29:13 <sipa> mbelshe_: i woukd advise you to not test with such large amounts though :)
2221 2013-10-23 23:29:18 <sipa> *would
2222 2013-10-23 23:29:34 <feddy3> Hey... Is this the place to share this? Is http://fetchtx.info/ actually useful? The "html" view will eventually be a better laid-out view of the hex with explanations of the individual values of the tx
2223 2013-10-23 23:29:37 <wizkid057> didnt mtgox lose tons of coins from a raw transaction error?
2224 2013-10-23 23:29:52 <mbelshe_> lol.  i didn't think it was a test.  I had run tx after tx - and all was fine!  this one was for real.  i don't know how I got so hung up.
2225 2013-10-23 23:29:54 <mbelshe_> oy.
2226 2013-10-23 23:30:02 dparrish_ has joined
2227 2013-10-23 23:30:27 <warren> sipa: how do I print stuff to console from a unit test?  you told me a few months ago but I can't find it now.
2228 2013-10-23 23:31:20 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2234 2013-10-23 23:35:18 Squidicuz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2235 2013-10-23 23:35:19 dparrish_ has joined
2236 2013-10-23 23:35:42 <sipa> warren: in git head it's easy, just use printf
2237 2013-10-23 23:36:01 <sipa> warren: in 0.8 code, use fprintf(stdout,
2238 2013-10-23 23:36:24 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2239 2013-10-23 23:39:45 <warren> sipa: thanks
2240 2013-10-23 23:40:29 dparrish has joined
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2243 2013-10-23 23:43:53 Squidicuz has joined
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2245 2013-10-23 23:46:16 <swulf-->  wallet              3073538ms
2246 2013-10-23 23:46:22 <swulf--> thats TDL .. really
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2249 2013-10-23 23:51:28 dparrish_ has joined
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