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   6 2013-10-24 00:06:50 <Ascendion> Luke-Jr said something to me earlier that got me worried -- how does a wallet client tell (from a cold start) what transactions apply to the addresses in the wallet -- both inbound and outbound ??
   7 2013-10-24 00:07:27 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: wallets look specifically for transactions to addresses pointing at them
   8 2013-10-24 00:07:48 <Luke-Jr> and they also notice if transactions consume coins/outputs they control/contain
   9 2013-10-24 00:07:50 <Ascendion> as the destination ??
  10 2013-10-24 00:07:56 <Luke-Jr> addresses are only destinations
  11 2013-10-24 00:07:58 <Luke-Jr> ever
  12 2013-10-24 00:08:39 <Ascendion> but if you have to sign something to prove your right to spend an output, doesnt that imply using a key for the signature ??
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  14 2013-10-24 00:09:38 <jegz> how can I just create a new wallet?
  15 2013-10-24 00:09:42 <Ascendion> and shouldnt that private key used match the public key of the destination in the output ??
  16 2013-10-24 00:09:43 <jegz> remove the old one and restart the server?
  17 2013-10-24 00:09:43 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: yes, the wallet contains numerous keys
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  19 2013-10-24 00:10:45 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: the output is just 2 hashes and an index
  20 2013-10-24 00:10:58 <Luke-Jr> first hash + index identify the coin publicly
  21 2013-10-24 00:11:30 <Luke-Jr> second hash points at the destination wallet and user
  22 2013-10-24 00:11:40 Thepok has joined
  23 2013-10-24 00:11:40 <Luke-Jr> (which may be distinct entities)
  24 2013-10-24 00:13:24 <Ascendion> ok -- lemme rephrase then -- I'm about to start pulling blockchain and transaction data from a bitcoind with jsonrpc -- I need to be able to reconstruct account balances -- can I do that just knowing a public key... or do I also have to have the private for each address in the wallet
  25 2013-10-24 00:13:49 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: you can't do that.
  26 2013-10-24 00:14:02 <Luke-Jr> there is no public information about accounts
  27 2013-10-24 00:14:17 <Ascendion> not even bitcoin-qt can do that given both keys ??
  28 2013-10-24 00:14:31 <Luke-Jr> if you could guess the structure of a wallet, you could potentially figure out the wallet balance, but that's getting harder and harder
  29 2013-10-24 00:14:45 <Luke-Jr> both keys? wallets have hundreds of keys usually
  30 2013-10-24 00:14:59 <Ascendion> I wont have the wallet data file -- at most I will have the blockchain and the keys
  31 2013-10-24 00:15:03 <Luke-Jr> and no, even if you have every key with 100% certainty, you know nothing about accounts
  32 2013-10-24 00:15:40 <Ascendion> so bitcoin has zero recoverability if the wallet is lost but you still have the keys
  33 2013-10-24 00:16:03 <Luke-Jr> if you have the keys, you can recover the money, but not accounting info
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  35 2013-10-24 00:17:01 <Ascendion> if I can recover the money -- there has to be some way to identify what money in the chain currently belongs to the key then... or I'm completely lost
  36 2013-10-24 00:17:02 <Luke-Jr> unless it's a HD wallet master key
  37 2013-10-24 00:17:09 <Luke-Jr> you can probably recover accounts from that
  38 2013-10-24 00:17:19 <Luke-Jr> but you'd need to provide the metadata still
  39 2013-10-24 00:17:34 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: money doesn't belong to keys, it belongs to people
  40 2013-10-24 00:18:37 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: there's a number of concepts in play:
  41 2013-10-24 00:18:42 <Apocalyptic> Luke-Jr, technically speaking he's right
  42 2013-10-24 00:18:52 <Ascendion> dont play semantics with me -- a keypair has to own the money -- a person/wallet is just a collection of keypairs :)
  43 2013-10-24 00:19:01 <Apocalyptic> where the hell do people come in play here ?
  44 2013-10-24 00:19:23 <sipa> Ascendion: coins (unsoent transaction outouts) are assigned to outout scripts
  45 2013-10-24 00:19:33 <Luke-Jr> wallets control coins; accounts track balances; people own account(s); addresses point to a specific wallet+account
  46 2013-10-24 00:19:51 <sipa> Ascendion: some outout scriots are recognizable by your wallet as being spendable by the keys you have
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  49 2013-10-24 00:20:12 <Ascendion> right -- I got that (though I think embedded scripting in the transaction is crazy)... and usually that script has a key in it -- the destination of the output
  50 2013-10-24 00:20:43 <sipa> well the script IS the destination
  51 2013-10-24 00:20:56 <sipa> addresses are shorthand templates for specific scripts
  52 2013-10-24 00:21:05 <Luke-Jr> the address is used to form the output's scriptPubKey, but the account the address points to is NOT necessarily related to the account sending the transaction that consumes it
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  54 2013-10-24 00:21:46 <sipa> Luke-Jr is talking about how there can be multiple owners for money in a wallet
  55 2013-10-24 00:21:58 <sipa> he's right, but i don't think it is relevant here
  56 2013-10-24 00:22:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Ascendion wants to prove "from addresses"
  57 2013-10-24 00:22:40 <Luke-Jr> so all the usual points apply
  58 2013-10-24 00:23:15 <sipa> unsure
  59 2013-10-24 00:23:45 <sipa> so if you're looking for incoming transactions: notice transaction outputs that you recignize as spendable
  60 2013-10-24 00:23:47 <CodeShark> sipa: not much shorterhand than the actual scripts themselves :p
  61 2013-10-24 00:23:55 <Ascendion> I want to reconstruct a transaction history for a given pool of addresses -- I should be able to track through finding all pays to an address, and then if those pays have been spent
  62 2013-10-24 00:24:15 <Ascendion> I dont need a from address per-se -- just be able to reconstruct the balance
  63 2013-10-24 00:24:28 <sipa> if you want outgoing transactions: those that spend the coins that were spendable
  64 2013-10-24 00:24:43 <sipa> that's all
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  66 2013-10-24 00:25:31 <Ascendion> thats all that are needed really -- I seriously doubt by this time that anyone owns a bitcoin that hasnt passed through several transactions
  67 2013-10-24 00:25:49 <sipa> of course
  68 2013-10-24 00:25:58 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: addresses don't have balances, just wallets and accounts; you can't get the balance of an account, but you can of a wallet if you know *all* its addresses (many of which are hidden by the wallet software)
  69 2013-10-24 00:26:00 <sipa> any coin mined is fresh...
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  71 2013-10-24 00:26:21 <CodeShark> there are loads of early mined coins that have never been spent
  72 2013-10-24 00:26:22 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  73 2013-10-24 00:26:22 <sipa> right, he wants the balance of a set of addresses
  74 2013-10-24 00:26:27 <sipa> that's a wallet
  75 2013-10-24 00:26:34 <sipa> that's perfectly wel
  76 2013-10-24 00:26:38 <sipa> defined
  77 2013-10-24 00:26:39 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: if you send me 5 BTC, that coin may become spent even if I haven't done anything with the money you sent me
  78 2013-10-24 00:26:43 <Ascendion> ok -- semantics again -- when I say account I mean address (though I did see something about accounts within a wallet -- dont understand what those are all about yet)
  79 2013-10-24 00:27:08 <Luke-Jr> addresses don't have balances
  80 2013-10-24 00:27:13 <Luke-Jr> they receive coins once, that's it.
  81 2013-10-24 00:27:24 <Luke-Jr> a coin*
  82 2013-10-24 00:27:26 <sipa> Ascendion: the reason for the distinction between wallet and address is that you shouldn't reuse addresses
  83 2013-10-24 00:27:27 <CodeShark> argh, when are we going to retire the term "address" to avoid this type of confusion for good? :)
  84 2013-10-24 00:27:40 <sipa> CodeShark: impossible now
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  86 2013-10-24 00:27:54 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: when the payment protocol prevails?
  87 2013-10-24 00:27:59 <CodeShark> we can't really go mainsteam until we get this right
  88 2013-10-24 00:28:19 <Luke-Jr> sipa: maybe we could get away with "destination" ;)
  89 2013-10-24 00:28:29 <Ascendion> when you send money to an address, that address recieves the money even if its credited to a containing wallet -- how could coinbase figure out that I just sent them coins if they couldnt detect that coins were sent to the address they provided
  90 2013-10-24 00:28:30 <Luke-Jr> although that doesn't express the one-time use
  91 2013-10-24 00:28:56 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: no, the address doesn't receive it; the wallet (and user) does - this is semantics, but it's *important* semantics
  92 2013-10-24 00:28:58 <Ascendion> and they manage to do it within a minute of when I send coins
  93 2013-10-24 00:29:11 <petertodd> CodeShark: the best part is that with the payment protocol what will actually happen is the word address will get overloaded with URL, furthering user confusion. ("So why can't I make my webbrowser open up 1DNHCc5rzjYdYxynFvH8aEtnCAP3dif6La?")
  94 2013-10-24 00:29:22 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: the address is just a pointer
  95 2013-10-24 00:29:35 <CodeShark> they listen to the network and filter transactions by output script, ascendion
  96 2013-10-24 00:29:40 <sipa> Ascendion: coins are assigned to addresses
  97 2013-10-24 00:29:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: facepalm
  98 2013-10-24 00:30:01 <Luke-Jr> they're assigned to scriptPubKeys, which are created from (but are not) addresses
  99 2013-10-24 00:30:10 <sipa> right, ok
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 101 2013-10-24 00:30:42 <Ascendion> ok -- so how does someone like coinbase verify that a scriptPubKey refers to a specific recieving address ??
 102 2013-10-24 00:31:01 <sipa> every address corresponds to a particular script
 103 2013-10-24 00:31:08 <CodeShark> all you care about is the output script, ascendion
 104 2013-10-24 00:31:09 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: they keep an index of every possible scriptPubKey they control
 105 2013-10-24 00:31:11 <Ascendion> would I need just the pub key of the address, or both pub and priv ??
 106 2013-10-24 00:31:16 <sipa> (though not the other way around)
 107 2013-10-24 00:31:28 <CodeShark> addresses, as sipa was saying, are just representations of specific output script types
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 110 2013-10-24 00:31:45 <Ascendion> ok -- so there is a unique scriptPubKey for any given address ??
 111 2013-10-24 00:31:48 <CodeShark> the output script specifies the conditions under which the coins can be redeemed
 112 2013-10-24 00:31:49 <sipa> you only need the privkey to spend a coin that is assigned to a script that involves a particular corresponding pubkey
 113 2013-10-24 00:31:54 <CodeShark> and the input script redeems them
 114 2013-10-24 00:31:56 <sipa> Ascendion: yes
 115 2013-10-24 00:32:03 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: yep
 116 2013-10-24 00:32:21 <sipa> Ascendion: a script that says "require a valid signature, and a public key whose hash is X"
 117 2013-10-24 00:32:28 * Luke-Jr wonders if we should be adopting BIP 19 terminology here to make things clearer, but meh
 118 2013-10-24 00:32:32 <sipa> with X different for every address
 119 2013-10-24 00:32:37 <Ascendion> dont bother :)
 120 2013-10-24 00:32:42 <CodeShark> an address is a hash
 121 2013-10-24 00:32:45 <Luke-Jr> BIP 18*
 122 2013-10-24 00:33:05 <CodeShark> an address is just a base58-encoded hash
 123 2013-10-24 00:33:16 <Ascendion> so if I have a list of pubkeys from one of my users, I can generate the scriptPubKeys, scan transactions, and reconstruct the transaction history
 124 2013-10-24 00:33:25 CircusPeanut has joined
 125 2013-10-24 00:33:36 <CodeShark> yes
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 127 2013-10-24 00:33:40 <BlueMatt> yes, assuming all their txn were on the chain
 128 2013-10-24 00:33:42 <sipa> you can find incoming transactions to those addresses, ues
 129 2013-10-24 00:33:46 <Ascendion> dont need the privkeys at all
 130 2013-10-24 00:33:46 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: if the user is using a dedicated wallet with one account, yes
 131 2013-10-24 00:33:56 <CodeShark> the privkeys are only needed to sign transaction
 132 2013-10-24 00:34:01 <Luke-Jr> heck, you don't even need the pubkeys
 133 2013-10-24 00:34:05 <Luke-Jr> you could do it with just the addresses
 134 2013-10-24 00:34:18 <sipa> for outgoing ones, you need to find the transactions that spend the outputs created by the crediting transactions
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 136 2013-10-24 00:34:35 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr - you would need either the pubkeys or a redeemscript for multisigs :)
 137 2013-10-24 00:34:36 <Ascendion> and the address is all that I need to validate a signed message from a privkey ??
 138 2013-10-24 00:34:41 <Luke-Jr> "for outgoing ones" is where things will break if there are multiple accounts using the wallet
 139 2013-10-24 00:34:54 <Ascendion> sipa -- I got that part hours ago :)
 140 2013-10-24 00:34:59 <sipa> ok
 141 2013-10-24 00:35:05 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: no
 142 2013-10-24 00:35:13 <sipa> Ascendion: you're talking about message signing?
 143 2013-10-24 00:35:25 <Luke-Jr> well, I guess you could reverse the pubkey out of the signatures
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 145 2013-10-24 00:35:50 <sipa> that's what we do
 146 2013-10-24 00:35:52 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: if you have the address, you *don't* have the pubkey.
 147 2013-10-24 00:35:55 <Ascendion> sipa -- yes -- to validate that a user owns an address before I reconstruct the history and display the information to them
 148 2013-10-24 00:35:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: bitcoin doesn't
 149 2013-10-24 00:36:22 <sipa> Luke-Jr: you know i wrote it?
 150 2013-10-24 00:36:43 <Luke-Jr> sipa: signed messages are something different
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 152 2013-10-24 00:37:07 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that is what we're talking about now, apparently
 153 2013-10-24 00:37:11 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: you're going to ask for a signed message from every address in the wallet?
 154 2013-10-24 00:37:42 <Ascendion> Luke-Jr -- I dont have a choice -- if they want all or part of their wallet replicated on my system, I've got to validate ownership
 155 2013-10-24 00:37:58 <Ascendion> for people that create addresses on a whim that might be a problem :)
 156 2013-10-24 00:38:01 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: why?
 157 2013-10-24 00:38:09 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: bitcoin requires you to create addresses on a whim
 158 2013-10-24 00:38:14 <Luke-Jr> you need a new address for every transaction
 159 2013-10-24 00:38:29 <sipa> it's best practice for sure
 160 2013-10-24 00:38:39 <Ascendion> huh ?? I've got only 4 recieve addresses -- why do I need more ??
 161 2013-10-24 00:38:47 <sipa> Ascendion: privacy
 162 2013-10-24 00:38:53 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: because they're only correct to use once
 163 2013-10-24 00:38:56 <sipa> yours and everyone else's
 164 2013-10-24 00:39:11 <Luke-Jr> it works right now by coincidence, but it breaks the design of the system and makes you (and others!) more vulnerable
 165 2013-10-24 00:39:15 <CodeShark> "addresses" are not identifiers of recipients - they are one-time scripts
 166 2013-10-24 00:39:29 <sipa> thwy ought to be, indeed
 167 2013-10-24 00:39:38 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: people have had lots of money stolen because they used addresses more than once
 168 2013-10-24 00:39:39 <sipa> unfortunately, not much software makes that easy
 169 2013-10-24 00:39:39 <CodeShark> they should be called "payment scripts"
 170 2013-10-24 00:39:41 <CodeShark> :)
 171 2013-10-24 00:39:50 <CodeShark> send me a payment script, not send me an address
 172 2013-10-24 00:39:53 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: invoice id :p
 173 2013-10-24 00:40:03 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i like!
 174 2013-10-24 00:40:03 <CodeShark> or invoice script is fine too
 175 2013-10-24 00:40:44 <CodeShark> invoice is good - it suggests one-time use
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 178 2013-10-24 00:40:54 <Apocalyptic> <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: people have had lots of money stolen because they used addresses more than once // care to elaborate on that ?
 179 2013-10-24 00:41:13 <sipa> that was still because of other mistakes too
 180 2013-10-24 00:41:31 <sipa> the only real reason is privacy properties of the system
 181 2013-10-24 00:41:35 * Luke-Jr shrugs, those mistakes would have been harmless (in some cases) had the users been using bitcoin correctly.
 182 2013-10-24 00:41:44 <Ascendion> and here I though of addresses only as a way to track where income was coming from
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 184 2013-10-24 00:41:58 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: that too
 185 2013-10-24 00:42:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa: knowing what the payment is from/for is also a real reason :D
 186 2013-10-24 00:42:16 <sipa> d
 187 2013-10-24 00:42:18 <sipa> yes
 188 2013-10-24 00:42:33 <sipa> though using a different one each time implies that already :)
 189 2013-10-24 00:42:44 * sipa zZzZ
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 195 2013-10-24 00:44:23 <Ascendion> you still havent elaborated on how reusing addresses can cause a loss -- makes me worry about having used the same address in eligius all this time :)
 196 2013-10-24 00:44:38 <CodeShark> it's a single point of failure, ascendion
 197 2013-10-24 00:44:52 <Ascendion> but what are the failure modes ??
 198 2013-10-24 00:44:59 <CodeShark> you lose it/someone steals it
 199 2013-10-24 00:45:12 <BlueMatt> if you're tracking things by address and your software is fucked up beyond all repair you may create transactions invalidly or something
 200 2013-10-24 00:45:21 <Ascendion> someone has to get a copy of my wallet then to get the keys behind that address
 201 2013-10-24 00:45:28 <BlueMatt> in any case, you gotta fuck up bad to do that, but mostly its just you're an idiot if you have lots of coins behind one key
 202 2013-10-24 00:45:33 <BlueMatt> or behind a set of keys stored in the same place
 203 2013-10-24 00:45:54 dparrish_ has joined
 204 2013-10-24 00:46:04 <CodeShark> the main reason you don't want to use a single address for all your transactions is privacy
 205 2013-10-24 00:46:08 <Belxjander> BlueMatt: I "push forward" to a new address at random times and don't mind collecting dust :)
 206 2013-10-24 00:46:10 <BlueMatt> there have been lots of cases of a vps provider getting owned and then someone using that to drain btc out of server wallets
 207 2013-10-24 00:46:41 <CodeShark> the issue is more storage in one place than it being just one key (as far as theft)
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 210 2013-10-24 00:47:43 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: ECDSA weaknesses
 211 2013-10-24 00:47:47 <CodeShark> even if you have two keys stored in a single place, it
 212 2013-10-24 00:47:50 <Ascendion> ok -- so its all based on theft of wallet data more than anything else
 213 2013-10-24 00:47:54 <CodeShark> it's no more secure than one key stored in a single place
 214 2013-10-24 00:48:10 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: if someone figures out the K value in your signature, they can figure out your private key
 215 2013-10-24 00:48:46 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: the more signatures exist, the easier that becomes; if you use the same K twice, you're screwed
 216 2013-10-24 00:48:47 <Ascendion> hmmm sounds like time to write a GPU or FPGA algo to exploit that :)
 217 2013-10-24 00:49:14 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: don't bother, people are already automating it by now
 218 2013-10-24 00:49:33 <CodeShark> although assuming you use a decent RNG, the chances of finding a K collision are still astronomically tiny
 219 2013-10-24 00:50:19 <CodeShark> that sort of attack is only practical against buggy software
 220 2013-10-24 00:50:40 <BlueMatt> or buggy hardware wallets, which I would not be surprised to see fuck up k selection
 221 2013-10-24 00:50:47 <BlueMatt> ^ can we have deterministic k yet?
 222 2013-10-24 00:51:04 <Ascendion> ok -- so requiring a signed message to validate an address could possibly cost me some users of this specific feature if they are address-happy :) but for people with just a few addresses, they may choose to go through the hassle
 223 2013-10-24 00:51:05 dparrish_ has joined
 224 2013-10-24 00:51:42 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: BlueMatt: is it really buggy, if proper use is not vulnerable? :P
 225 2013-10-24 00:51:59 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: if they use bitcoin correctly*
 226 2013-10-24 00:52:05 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yes
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 228 2013-10-24 00:52:18 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ^
 229 2013-10-24 00:52:39 <sipa> if they have broken k selection, who knows what other vulnerabilities exist
 230 2013-10-24 00:52:48 <Ascendion> I never read anywhere that the right way to use bitcoin was to generate 100s of addresses -- no user guide told me to do that :)
 231 2013-10-24 00:53:26 <CodeShark> there are user guides?
 232 2013-10-24 00:53:52 <BlueMatt> bitcoin-qt does that for you magically
 233 2013-10-24 00:53:54 <Ascendion> Luke-Jr is the user guide apparently :)
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 244 2013-10-24 01:03:58 vitruvian has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 246 2013-10-24 01:04:41 <swulf--> InvalidChainFound: invalid block=000000000000000a606604978609119b8452336eddb3377a3f91f8233af3e6e0  height=265603  log2_work=73.09691  date=2013-10-23 21:05:12
 247 2013-10-24 01:04:41 <swulf--> InvalidChainFound:  current best=000000000000000ba58737621a993232c9ece0913476866ce78d45289d130d9b  height=265565  log2_work=73.090655  date=2013-10-23 17:22:52
 248 2013-10-24 01:04:41 <swulf--> InvalidChainFound: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
 249 2013-10-24 01:05:01 <swulf--> I've now restarted this process about 8 times, and *every* time it dies at block 265565
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 259 2013-10-24 01:14:11 <sipa> swulf--: what version?
 260 2013-10-24 01:14:16 molec has joined
 261 2013-10-24 01:14:23 <swulf--> tried both 0.8.3 and 0.8.5, same thing happens
 262 2013-10-24 01:17:47 <BlueMatt> swulf--: drive corruption possible (smart data showing anything?)
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 268 2013-10-24 01:20:02 <skinnkavaj> Even assuming the hash rate is always rising, there is still a chance that it will require 100 years to generate the block, isn't it?
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 270 2013-10-24 01:21:07 <sipa> swulf--: always at the same block?
 271 2013-10-24 01:21:14 <sipa> that is suspicious
 272 2013-10-24 01:21:27 <sipa> and may mean there is an actual bug
 273 2013-10-24 01:21:41 <sipa> skinnkavaj: yes
 274 2013-10-24 01:21:58 <skinnkavaj> sipa: isnt that scary
 275 2013-10-24 01:21:58 <Ascendion> or he keeps connecting to and syncing from a peer trying a fork attack :)
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 280 2013-10-24 01:22:16 <sipa> skinnkavaj: not if you understand how ridiculously small that chance is
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 283 2013-10-24 01:22:45 <skinnkavaj> sipa: but maybe 24 hours for a block is more possible and that could do a lot of damage i guess
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 289 2013-10-24 01:24:08 <sipa> skinnkavaj: not if you understand how ridiculously small that chance is :)
 290 2013-10-24 01:24:14 <sipa> ;;tblb 1h
 291 2013-10-24 01:24:14 <gribble> Error: '1h' is not a valid positive integer.
 292 2013-10-24 01:24:30 <sipa> ;;tblb 3600
 293 2013-10-24 01:24:31 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour and 0 seconds to generate is 10 weeks, 2 days, 5 hours, 11 minutes, and 52 seconds
 294 2013-10-24 01:24:43 <sipa> ;;tblb 7200
 295 2013-10-24 01:24:44 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 2 hours and 0 seconds to generate is 3337 years, 35 weeks, 0 days, 16 hours, 42 minutes, and 21 seconds
 296 2013-10-24 01:25:27 <sipa> ;;tblb 10800
 297 2013-10-24 01:25:28 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 3 hours and 0 seconds to generate is 56312041 years, 33 weeks, 4 days, 11 hours, 58 minutes, and 42 seconds
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 303 2013-10-24 01:30:32 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: bitcoin.pdf does
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 332 2013-10-24 02:00:09 <super3> hello
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 359 2013-10-24 02:29:45 <warren> jgarzik_: gmaxwell: http://193.28.235.60/~warren/openssl/fedora-19/  GPG signed and tested
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 396 2013-10-24 02:54:59 <super3> jgarzik: there?
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 455 2013-10-24 03:40:40 <PRab> Is there an official policy on merging Pull Requests into master?
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 463 2013-10-24 03:51:09 <gmaxwell> PRab: they're pulled into master by those who can according to informally specified behavior which is satisfactory to all the committers.
 464 2013-10-24 03:51:27 <super3> my new pull: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3138
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 468 2013-10-24 03:52:12 <super3> just cutting out some unneeded stuff since I want to add more to that file later
 469 2013-10-24 03:52:14 <PRab> gmaxwell: Ok, I was guessing that there needed to be a certain number of "acks" before it got pulled.
 470 2013-10-24 03:52:50 <PRab> I see some changes get merged faster than I would expect and other seem to linger for a very long time.
 471 2013-10-24 03:53:13 <gmaxwell> PRab: no, we normally like to see that (acks are positive confirmation of some level of review), and like to see more on trickier things. But there isn't a bright line requirement.
 472 2013-10-24 03:53:29 malaimo has joined
 473 2013-10-24 03:53:31 <PRab> Fair enough.
 474 2013-10-24 03:53:41 <gmaxwell> PRab: generally the timing of most things is not surprising to me. It depends a lot on how hard the change is to review.
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 477 2013-10-24 03:54:08 <gmaxwell> So simple stuff often goes in fast— unless it seems pointless, because it takes no review effort.
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 479 2013-10-24 03:55:30 <super3> PRab: when you start off try to keep it small, also it might take a day or two get people to look at it
 480 2013-10-24 03:55:45 <super3> they are way faster now than they were with pulls
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 482 2013-10-24 03:56:40 <PRab> I guess specifically, I am surprised that your change https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2945 got pulled without any explicit "acks".
 483 2013-10-24 03:57:32 <PRab> Personally I really like the concept of the change, but don't have enough experience on the code itself to comment.
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 485 2013-10-24 03:58:35 <PRab> It seemed to float for about a month, my guess was that it was to controversial, then just got merged.
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 491 2013-10-24 04:03:40 <jegz> holy shit
 492 2013-10-24 04:04:19 <jegz> i just realized how useless listtransactions is going to be for my application, i actually need the opposite ordering. Oldest first, or start from the nth oldest given a param
 493 2013-10-24 04:04:30 <super3> jegz: don't even know what thats about, but you made my check the bitcoin charts
 494 2013-10-24 04:04:42 <jegz> lol what?
 495 2013-10-24 04:04:46 <jegz> oh t he holy shit
 496 2013-10-24 04:04:47 <PRab> Oh, and BTW, that merge took all the teeth out of "throw a bag of pennies" over the counter attack I mentioned a month or 2 ago.
 497 2013-10-24 04:05:03 <jegz> i'm still struggling with this damn API
 498 2013-10-24 04:05:08 <gmaxwell> jegz: do you want listsinceblock
 499 2013-10-24 04:05:09 <gmaxwell> ?
 500 2013-10-24 04:05:16 <jegz> could be let me see
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 502 2013-10-24 04:06:20 <jegz> hmm what does that mean "since block"
 503 2013-10-24 04:06:30 <jegz> i don't even understand lol
 504 2013-10-24 04:07:09 <jegz> i mean i understand it has to do with the value "hashblock" but i don't understand how that value gives an ordering to transactions associated with my wallet
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 506 2013-10-24 04:07:38 <jegz> s/hashblock/blockhash/
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 508 2013-10-24 04:07:40 <gmaxwell> jegz: you can use it to get reliable notification of all confirmed transactions.
 509 2013-10-24 04:08:02 <gmaxwell> basically you keep calling it with the blockhash from the last time you called it and it will tell you all the transactions that have changed.
 510 2013-10-24 04:08:13 <jegz> gmaxwell: cool, that's exactly what i want
 511 2013-10-24 04:08:31 <jegz> guess i need to study up on blocks
 512 2013-10-24 04:08:37 <super3> gmaxwell: Fixed.
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 529 2013-10-24 04:27:30 <jegz> gmaxwell: the order for the transactions returned by listsinceblock is always timereceived,  descending?
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 535 2013-10-24 04:33:57 <dobry-den> you would think it'd be ascending (oldest first)
 536 2013-10-24 04:34:49 <dobry-den> but that should be trivial to test for yourself
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 540 2013-10-24 04:38:13 <jegz> dobry-den: yeah i did test it that's why i'm asking if it's a general rule
 541 2013-10-24 04:38:33 <jegz> i'm showing newest first (newest at 0 index of array returned by jsonrpc)
 542 2013-10-24 04:38:47 <jegz> going by timereceived value
 543 2013-10-24 04:39:04 <jegz> and time value
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 549 2013-10-24 04:44:18 <jegz> i really need to learn cpp :p
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 565 2013-10-24 05:05:14 <jegz> holy shit!
 566 2013-10-24 05:05:22 <jegz> it's not chronologically ordered at all
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 578 2013-10-24 05:24:29 * Luke-Jr wonders how chronological order would apply to code O.o
 579 2013-10-24 05:25:44 <dobry-den> jegz: what fields do you get back for txns
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 582 2013-10-24 05:26:18 <jegz> dobry-den: same as listtransactions, in fact it calls out to the same function "ListTransactions" in the source
 583 2013-10-24 05:26:38 <jegz> dobry-den: if there are 0 confirmations though it seems blockhash is not set
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 585 2013-10-24 05:27:24 <jegz> in any case i'm having a hard time ensuring that i don't miss any transactions
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 587 2013-10-24 05:29:22 <jegz> my current understanding is, i'll have to use listsinceblock on a blockhash for a transaction with a timereceived value that's *before* the most recent transaction
 588 2013-10-24 05:29:54 <jegz> to make sure i don't skip any transactions ocurring within the same second
 589 2013-10-24 05:30:36 <jegz> all this would be unecessary if the output from listsinceblock was well ordered
 590 2013-10-24 05:30:51 <Luke-Jr> could use listtransactions with from=N
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 592 2013-10-24 05:31:24 <jegz> i started with that but it didn't work out
 593 2013-10-24 05:31:41 <jegz> i need to start at the oldest transactions first, and skip ahead
 594 2013-10-24 05:31:46 <jegz> kind of the opposite of listtransactions
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 604 2013-10-24 05:45:12 <dobry-den> listtransactions is showing ascending time order for me
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 606 2013-10-24 05:46:40 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't use time for sorting, it uses order added to the wallet
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 609 2013-10-24 05:47:44 <dobry-den> im not very familiar with the rpc api, but is it not trivial to just sort it yourself?
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 611 2013-10-24 05:49:57 <dobry-den> jegz: how would you miss transactions?
 612 2013-10-24 05:51:06 <jegz> dobry-den: i'm writing a daemon that continuously polls bitcoind for "new" transactions and loads them into a relational database
 613 2013-10-24 05:51:43 <jegz> dobry-den: if you don't pick the right blockhash to query from, you stand a chance of dropping transactions
 614 2013-10-24 05:51:57 <Luke-Jr> jegz: check out how Spesmilo did it, that worked
 615 2013-10-24 05:52:26 <jegz> Luke-Jr: cool might just do that, but i'm in the midst of writing something right now that should work too
 616 2013-10-24 05:52:43 <jegz> but i'm curious how any other solution would work lol so yeah i'll def check it out
 617 2013-10-24 05:54:04 <dobry-den> jegz: your (save-txns-since <blockhash>) function should only save txns that your db doesnt have, right?
 618 2013-10-24 05:54:34 <jegz> dobry-den: sure
 619 2013-10-24 05:54:40 <dobry-den> so for all it matters, you could run (save-txns-since <blockhash-from-100-blocks-ago>) every minute
 620 2013-10-24 05:55:02 <jegz> why is 100 the magic number?
 621 2013-10-24 05:55:45 <dobry-den> 100 was arbitrarily big. ideally, you'd be able to to <oldest-blockhash-i-havent-checked>
 622 2013-10-24 05:56:09 <dobry-den> but you want to choose like 10 blocks ago because the blockchain might get refactored
 623 2013-10-24 05:57:04 <jegz> blockchain refactored??
 624 2013-10-24 05:57:06 <jegz> what does that mean
 625 2013-10-24 05:57:15 <jegz> the blockhash for a tx is mutable??
 626 2013-10-24 05:57:27 <jegz> if i can't found on that then im totally fucked
 627 2013-10-24 05:57:31 <jegz> *count on
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 634 2013-10-24 06:00:14 <jegz> dobry-den: c'mon don't leave me hanging what does that mean
 635 2013-10-24 06:00:40 <dobry-den> jegz: basically, that the blockchain can fork temporarily from time to time is the only thing i think that makes this slightly more involved that "get txns since oldest blockhash i havent yet read"
 636 2013-10-24 06:00:44 <dobry-den> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_chain
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 639 2013-10-24 06:01:38 <dobry-den> for the same reason, it's why you wait for confirmations on your own txns
 640 2013-10-24 06:02:02 <jegz> let's say a tx has 6 confirmations, is there any way that its blockhash could change?
 641 2013-10-24 06:03:12 <elevatioN> yeah
 642 2013-10-24 06:03:15 <elevatioN> quantum computer
 643 2013-10-24 06:03:20 <elevatioN> NSAs like no, double spend
 644 2013-10-24 06:03:21 <elevatioN> game over
 645 2013-10-24 06:03:32 <elevatioN> laser to the moon internet
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 648 2013-10-24 06:04:33 <dobry-den> jegz: i dont the probability of small forks happening, but 6 confirmations (6 blocks) is safe
 649 2013-10-24 06:05:02 <jegz> man if this is to be real money, ppl need to be able to write 100% deterministic code
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 651 2013-10-24 06:07:39 <dobry-den> jegz: but that's it - the blockchain is immutable and peers can rebuild its entire state. but the few probabilistic moving parts are only there for the immutable chain to interact with the nondeterminstic real world
 652 2013-10-24 06:09:28 <jegz> oh man you got all postmodern analyticly philosophical on my ass
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 654 2013-10-24 06:10:17 <jegz> so, if t he blockchain is immutable, what are the "probabilistic moving parts"?
 655 2013-10-24 06:10:23 <dobry-den> all i mean is that if you wait on some confirmations to happen, you can pretty much pretend it's immutable
 656 2013-10-24 06:10:48 <jegz> oh yeah i'll be waiting on crazy ass confirmations
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 658 2013-10-24 06:10:53 <jegz> like the standard 6
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 661 2013-10-24 06:12:25 <dobry-den> besides, if you store blockhash with txn in your db, then you can just fix your db state in the event that those blockhases disappear
 662 2013-10-24 06:12:33 <Thepok> i would wait 6+(number of btc to send)/25 blocks
 663 2013-10-24 06:12:46 <jegz> so, let's say i store some tx data in my db for a tx that just got a blockhash with 1 confirmation. now lets say that the next time i check that tx to see if it has 6 confirmations yet, the blockhash could have possibly changed due to a split in the intervening time?
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 665 2013-10-24 06:15:06 <jegz> yes? no?
 666 2013-10-24 06:15:14 <jegz> dobry-den: am i getting this all straight?
 667 2013-10-24 06:15:59 <dobry-den> jegz: im actually reading the wiki. i havent yet started on implementing txns yet so it's actually an area of weakness for me atm
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 669 2013-10-24 06:16:50 <jegz> the whole thing is a weakness for me atm :p
 670 2013-10-24 06:16:58 <dobry-den> i dont think the txn changes. i think it disappears
 671 2013-10-24 06:17:01 <dobry-den> you get new blocks
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 673 2013-10-24 06:17:12 <jegz> disappears? that's even worse
 674 2013-10-24 06:17:16 <jegz> the txid should remain the same
 675 2013-10-24 06:17:22 <jegz> otherwise like who could keep track of anything?
 676 2013-10-24 06:17:27 <dobry-den> yeah, that's what i'm looking up
 677 2013-10-24 06:17:33 <dobry-den> to see how an id is derived
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 681 2013-10-24 06:22:15 <dobry-den> apparently it's a hash of nVersion, input-txns, output-txns, and nLockTime. those don't change except for nLockTime which just seems it can be "block height or timestamp when transaction is final"
 682 2013-10-24 06:23:17 <dobry-den> i doubt it changes
 683 2013-10-24 06:23:55 <dobry-den> either way, if you only drag your net across blocks that confirmed 6+ times, then it doesnt even matter
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 685 2013-10-24 06:25:22 <dobry-den> it would be a waste of time for you to write code for some remote edge case possibility imo
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 689 2013-10-24 06:30:10 <sipa> jegz: the block a transaction is in can absolutely change, and you should absolutely be able to deal with that
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 691 2013-10-24 06:30:51 <sipa> but it is not hard... call listsinceblock with the latest block, apply the results to your database
 692 2013-10-24 06:31:14 <sipa> and if there is any mismatch, go back and call listsinceblock with the previous block
 693 2013-10-24 06:31:26 <sipa> and keep doing that until there are no changes
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 695 2013-10-24 06:32:54 <sipa> that is the reason for confirmations: the deeper a transaction is buried under blocks, the lower the chances for it being reorganized
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 697 2013-10-24 06:35:24 <dobry-den> it seems a simpler way to always query the block 10 confirmations ago (or whatever) and just do a simple Set intersection & difference
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 700 2013-10-24 06:36:39 <dobry-den> most of the time, it's a set that grows members that you don't yet have in your DB. worst case scenario, some set members disappear and those are the members that need to be removed from db
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 702 2013-10-24 06:38:41 <jegz> sipa, dobry-den thanks, i think i'm starting to get the picture now
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 721 2013-10-24 07:01:34 <gavinandresen> Anybody awake enough to do a quick proof-read:  https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=290
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 733 2013-10-24 07:05:23 <lclc> what do you think is the best compression algorithm to compress a transaction hash? anyone tried that?
 734 2013-10-24 07:06:08 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: sounds great.
 735 2013-10-24 07:06:19 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: thanks
 736 2013-10-24 07:06:28 <gmaxwell> lclc: they are inherently incompressable (assuming you're storing them as bytes to begin with)
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 738 2013-10-24 07:06:37 <gavinandresen> lclc: transaction hashes are indistinguishable from random noise….
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 741 2013-10-24 07:08:07 <warren> gavinandresen: with the mention of autotools (not user visible), should the gitian upgrades be mentioned too?  major upgrade to win32 toolchain, hardening enabled for the first time and an entire stack of dep upgrades is not a negligible change.
 742 2013-10-24 07:08:35 <lclc> hm ok right. But I hope I'm still able to save a few bytes, at least for transactions with many outputs
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 744 2013-10-24 07:09:16 <wumpus> autotools is very important to mention because it makes it easier for people to build the thing, and thus contribute
 745 2013-10-24 07:09:37 <gmaxwell> lclc: you cannot compress the transaction hash itself at all. If you can, go collect your prize, you've broken sha256.
 746 2013-10-24 07:09:38 <gavinandresen> warren: gitian upgrades are both ordinary developer and user invisible… so even more obscure.
 747 2013-10-24 07:09:48 <warren> wumpus: autotools is already mentioned
 748 2013-10-24 07:10:01 <gmaxwell> warren: we should probably seperately have a whole post about the gitan process.
 749 2013-10-24 07:10:22 <warren> gmaxwell: in general lots of random people in the public should be joining in gitian verification ... yes.
 750 2013-10-24 07:10:37 <gmaxwell> Something with illustrations and whatever, I can't tell you how many times I've had people say "but you can't have any idea if the binary is right"
 751 2013-10-24 07:10:45 <wumpus> yes, a sepearate post about gitian sounds good, like tor did
 752 2013-10-24 07:10:56 <gavinandresen> Separate post about gitian and whatever is decided on policy for deciding which dependency versions to go with is a great idea
 753 2013-10-24 07:10:57 <warren> gavinandresen: are you absolutely sure the smart floating fee will be ready for 0.9?  It seems pre-requisites aren't being worked on at the moment.
 754 2013-10-24 07:11:13 <wumpus> ie like https://blog.torproject.org/category/tags/gitian
 755 2013-10-24 07:11:16 <gmaxwell> blog posts are not suicide pacts. :P
 756 2013-10-24 07:11:40 <gavinandresen> warren: thanks for the reminder: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/7079034  <-- Design sketch for "reject" p2p message
 757 2013-10-24 07:12:25 <gavinandresen> warren: and no, I'm not absolutely positive floating fees will be ready for 0.9, but they're top of my work-I'm-doing-myself list
 758 2013-10-24 07:12:35 <warren> ah, that looks like an improvement
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 760 2013-10-24 07:12:50 <warren> what about replace-with-fee?
 761 2013-10-24 07:13:00 <lclc> gmaxwell: I just tooked a signed transaction into a file (size 516B) and compressed it with .tar.bz (size 388).  Why should this not be possible?
 762 2013-10-24 07:13:12 <gavinandresen> replace-with-fee is orthogonal to sending-with-the-right-fee-in-the-first-place
 763 2013-10-24 07:13:38 <gmaxwell> lclc: a transaction is not a transaction hash.
 764 2013-10-24 07:13:43 <gavinandresen> And if sending-with-the-right-fee-in-the-first-place works as well as I think it will, then replace-with-fee is "meh"
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 766 2013-10-24 07:13:58 <gmaxwell> (as an aside, if the transaction was in hex: duhhhh)
 767 2013-10-24 07:14:20 <warren> there's no way to guarantee that the tx gets stuck only on initial send, not on another hop you don't see
 768 2013-10-24 07:14:50 <gmaxwell> I don't /think/ any replacement is a blocker for the fee changes... as we already have problems with stuck transactions.
 769 2013-10-24 07:15:01 <gmaxwell> At least if we didn't believe we were likely to be making that _worse_
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 771 2013-10-24 07:16:13 <Krellan> gavinandresen: I read the article as well.  Looks good to me.  Nice summary.
 772 2013-10-24 07:16:17 <gavinandresen> warren: if it gets "stuck" then it is not in other nodes' memory pools, so you don't need replace-with-fee, you just need broadcast-double-spend-with-higher-fee
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 774 2013-10-24 07:17:03 <gavinandresen> warren: .. but again, the point of the smartfee branch is to give transactions a high enough fee so they don't get stuck.
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 776 2013-10-24 07:17:45 <Krellan> Aye, replace-with-fee would be good to rescue stuck transactions.  Not a double spend, but a supplemental spend.
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 778 2013-10-24 07:18:07 <gmaxwell> it has to be a doublespent (technical meaning: spends the same coins) to be safe
 779 2013-10-24 07:18:14 <gmaxwell> er doublespend*
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 781 2013-10-24 07:18:25 <Krellan> to avoid the possibility of a race, perhaps only allow adding more inputs and outputs to the same transaction.  Never change the original inputs and outputs that were part of the original tx.
 782 2013-10-24 07:18:53 <Krellan> gmaxwell: Good, same thing I was thinking of.
 783 2013-10-24 07:18:53 <warren> I'm trying to find the earlier discussion between me and gmaxwell regarding the risk of many new features in one release.
 784 2013-10-24 07:19:02 <gmaxwell> Krellan: you only really need to have one input in common.
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 787 2013-10-24 07:19:25 <Krellan> at work we're doing something similar with our product. I want an incremental release that rolls out lots of good improvements we've made. Management wants a "big bang" release that drops many new features as well.
 788 2013-10-24 07:19:31 <gmaxwell> warren: I think I responded that I'd rather have 0.9 stuffed with new features only and then .x being fix concentrated then to have new features in every version.
 789 2013-10-24 07:20:07 <Krellan> There's reasons to do it both ways, but I think customers would prefer some safe and useful fixes to what they already have.
 790 2013-10-24 07:20:48 <gmaxwell> Krellan: we have larger features that are taking time to mature, while they're happening smaller features that need less work and testing are flowing in at the same time.
 791 2013-10-24 07:20:55 <Krellan> The new features take time, and increase risk.  Some customers care only that "their bug" is fixed, and that the fix comes out in a timely manner.
 792 2013-10-24 07:21:02 <gmaxwell> Krellan: release timing will end up largely determined by the few big features.
 793 2013-10-24 07:21:08 <Krellan> gmaxwell: Good to know.
 794 2013-10-24 07:21:18 <gmaxwell> Krellan: we backport important fixes.
 795 2013-10-24 07:21:34 <wumpus> Krellan: fixing bugs also happens in the stable releases maintained by Luke-Jr
 796 2013-10-24 07:21:41 <gavinandresen> I would dearly like to get the OSX disk corruption bug fixed, or at least mitigated.  I was bit by it again a few days ago.
 797 2013-10-24 07:21:44 <warren> <warren> [20:16:33] will 0.9 have a feature freeze at some point?  do you really want several major changes in one release? <gmaxwell> [20:22:39] warren: We've not really been burned from feature bunching before. I think we've had better success from bunches of features and then fix-only releases. <gmaxwell> [20:22:57] Having a bunch of fix+one feature updates makes it harder to get people to update. But ::shrugs::
 798 2013-10-24 07:21:44 <warren> <warren> [20:26:02] feature bunching is one thing, the big things like no wallet, multiwallet, watchonly, coin control and headers first are great as they are functionally equivalent to the previous version. <warren> [20:26:29] I am nervous though if people want to push for the unproven changes like floating fees at the same time as those other major features.
 799 2013-10-24 07:21:45 <warren> <gmaxwell> [20:26:55] warren: sounds like a reasonable concern to me. <gmaxwell> [20:27:13] perhaps seperating network behavior updates from client functionality updates makes sense.
 800 2013-10-24 07:21:46 <Krellan> Also good to know.
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 802 2013-10-24 07:23:33 <warren> we're having a hard enough time with the functionally equivalent code reviews as it is.
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 805 2013-10-24 07:25:46 <warren> gavinandresen: hm, no mention of multi wallet, have we given up on that?
 806 2013-10-24 07:26:48 <wumpus> I don't think multiwallet will make it into 0.9
 807 2013-10-24 07:27:19 <warren> gavinandresen: re: OSX disk corruption, 1) was your build with both fsync patches + leveldb 1.13?  We're testing the combination here now as we're getting the same bug reports.  2) what exactly is corrupting?  in bitcoin-0.8.5 and litecoin reports we're seeing some things fixable with -reindex and some that isn't.
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 810 2013-10-24 07:28:34 <wumpus> on the longer run we've certainly not given up on it, but I think the original idea was to get a new wallet format in first
 811 2013-10-24 07:28:52 <warren> new wallet format?  is that plan written down anywhere?
 812 2013-10-24 07:29:02 <warren> (still db4)?
 813 2013-10-24 07:29:05 <wumpus> search for append-only wallet
 814 2013-10-24 07:29:19 <wumpus> @sipa did some work in that direction already
 815 2013-10-24 07:29:23 <gavinandresen> warren: running git HEAD, might have been caused when I accidently turned off the wrong power strip.  No idea what is corrupting, I haven't yet looked at that corrupt chain.
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 817 2013-10-24 07:30:07 <warren> gavinandresen:  the dev update #5 looks good, perhaps mention the OS X corruption issues?  would really be helpful if the public could help report a consistent reproduce procedure...
 818 2013-10-24 07:30:16 <wumpus> no db4 or leveldb, it will no longer rely on a database
 819 2013-10-24 07:30:23 <warren> ah
 820 2013-10-24 07:30:48 <warren> wumpus: will be wonderful to get rid of db!
 821 2013-10-24 07:31:33 <warren> gavinandresen: what kind of disk was it?
 822 2013-10-24 07:31:39 <wumpus> warren: don't cheer too soon, we'll need to carry that heavy burden for a long time, we can't just drop compatibility with old wallets .. (though it may be part of a separate conversion executable)
 823 2013-10-24 07:32:24 <gavinandresen> warren: SSD
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 827 2013-10-24 07:33:40 <warren> gavinandresen: what brand/model and chipset within?  from Apple or after market?  at least three of our reports were after market SSD's with a Sandforce controller
 828 2013-10-24 07:34:06 <gmaxwell> Interesting, the sandforce controllers do crazy compression stuff, no?
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 830 2013-10-24 07:35:14 <gavinandresen> Samsung SSD 840 Series   -- I have no idea if it was from apple, I bought this system used when I got here to Australia....
 831 2013-10-24 07:35:29 <warren> hmm, 840 is supposed to be good
 832 2013-10-24 07:35:41 <gavinandresen> I run another copy of the blockchain on a non-SSD drive, and got corruption there, too a couple months ago.
 833 2013-10-24 07:36:41 <warren> gmaxwell: the things that concerned me in random reading about Sandforce drives and compromises that were taken, something about avoiding the cost of an onboard capacitor to ensure a write succeeds
 834 2013-10-24 07:36:42 <Krellan> Read this page, was hoping to see an answer to this question, but none was provided before the thread was frozen: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=300809.msg3226839#msg3226839
 835 2013-10-24 07:37:13 <Krellan> as for the new Payment Protocol, if somebody sends a payment directly to merchant, bypassing blockchain, what's stopping them from double-spending those same coins?
 836 2013-10-24 07:37:51 <gmaxwell> Krellan: ... the merchant sends them to the network.
 837 2013-10-24 07:37:52 <gavinandresen> Krellan: nothing. Merchants still have to wait for confirmations, the payment protocol doesn't change that.
 838 2013-10-24 07:38:30 <Krellan> Ah.  So it doesn't really buy anything, other than perhaps faster, more direct delivery of the TX to the merchant.  Merchant still responsible for pushing it out on blockchain and awaiting the confirms.
 839 2013-10-24 07:38:33 <gavinandresen> (well, they don't HAVE to wait if they trust their customers or can afford double-spends...)
 840 2013-10-24 07:38:53 shesek has joined
 841 2013-10-24 07:38:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|<gavinandresen> Anybody awake enough to do a quick proof-read:  https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=290
 842 2013-10-24 07:39:06 <warren> sipa: crazy thought ... what are the types of failure that you fear possible with libsecp256k1?
 843 2013-10-24 07:39:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|One nit: afaik there is no Ubuntu 11.11
 844 2013-10-24 07:39:10 <gavinandresen> Krellan: sure. You can talk with peter todd about wacky keep-transaction-chains-off-the-blockchain schemes....
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 847 2013-10-24 07:39:33 <gmaxwell> Krellan: it can be used to make sure the merchant only gets the transaction if they also get the response (e.g. to make sure they get a refund address)
 848 2013-10-24 07:39:34 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: there should be an Ubuntu 11.11.
 849 2013-10-24 07:39:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|New releases usually happen in April as October
 850 2013-10-24 07:39:39 <Krellan> That's probably a critical point missing from that forum posting originally: merchant still responsible for pushing to the P2P network so their TX gets mined in the blockchain.
 851 2013-10-24 07:39:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|and*
 852 2013-10-24 07:39:58 <Krellan> I'm sure I wasn't the only one with that question.
 853 2013-10-24 07:40:08 <warren> sipa: If it's fear of it failing inconsistently with openssl, would that risk be obviated if an entire network got rid of openssl?
 854 2013-10-24 07:40:09 ThomasV has joined
 855 2013-10-24 07:40:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, 13.10 should be out any day now
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 857 2013-10-24 07:40:53 <wumpus> warren: that'd move the same responsibility to whatever new library is used
 858 2013-10-24 07:40:54 <sipa> Krellan: imho that is exactly the point: nobody but the merchant should be responsible getting a transaction confirmed (in particular, the sender shouldn't need to stay online for it)
 859 2013-10-24 07:40:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, it's already released
 860 2013-10-24 07:40:58 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: I'll rename that mythical release to "Ubuntian 11.11"
 861 2013-10-24 07:41:07 <Krellan> So it's useful in situations where merchant has a fatter pipe to the Internet, a better-connected bitcoin daemon, etc. than you do, makes sense. I can just do the bare minimum to submit the TX to the merchant and let them worry about how to transmit it.
 862 2013-10-24 07:41:09 jjje has joined
 863 2013-10-24 07:41:13 <gavinandresen> (because "Ubuntian" is funnier)
 864 2013-10-24 07:41:18 <Krellan> Thanks.
 865 2013-10-24 07:41:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: that works too :-P
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 868 2013-10-24 07:41:56 <gavinandresen> wait, no… Ubuntalicious
 869 2013-10-24 07:41:58 <gmaxwell> Krellan: yea, you can already talk to them, who knows if you can talk to the network, who knows if you'll be staying online to keep rebroadcasting. If you were sending them extra metadata with it, you can be sure that they got all or none if its direct, etc.
 870 2013-10-24 07:42:21 <wumpus> warren: but in general, yes, reducing dependincy on openssl is good, especially for the parsing as it removes an unknown/uncontrollable factor
 871 2013-10-24 07:42:38 <Krellan> Nice, it makes sense now.
 872 2013-10-24 07:43:03 <warren> wumpus: I ask in part because I have the capability to entirely get rid of openssl on a network to serve as a guinea pig ...
 873 2013-10-24 07:44:03 <warren> hmm, almost 9k downloads of the client with libsecp256k1 in the past month
 874 2013-10-24 07:44:03 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 875 2013-10-24 07:44:25 <warren> (they grab it because it's the only convenient build that has coin control)
 876 2013-10-24 07:44:38 <warren> (I just stuffed all experimental stuff into a single side build)
 877 2013-10-24 07:44:56 <MC1984_> you onyl built that last week
 878 2013-10-24 07:45:31 <warren> MC1984_: I made the bitcoin version last week by copying a subset of the litecoin experimental branch
 879 2013-10-24 07:46:11 <MC1984_> oh you were talking about litecoin client
 880 2013-10-24 07:46:16 <sipa> warren: that may reduce risk of inconsistency, but it is not acceptable
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 882 2013-10-24 07:46:39 <sipa> warren: correct must adhere to the mathenatical description of ecdsa
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 884 2013-10-24 07:47:50 <gmaxwell> "I CAN SPEND ANYONES COINS, BUT AT LEAST THE NETWORK IS CONSISTENT" is not an improvement :P
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 888 2013-10-24 07:50:57 <warren> It is good enough for timestamping. =)
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 892 2013-10-24 07:51:17 <Luke-Jr> lol
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 895 2013-10-24 07:52:05 <warren> sipa: ok well, if libsecp256k1 undergoes an audit and we're less afraid of corner cases, I'm interested in exploring taking that leap first.
 896 2013-10-24 07:52:52 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 897 2013-10-24 07:52:59 <swulf--> sigh.. 22+ minutes since the last block
 898 2013-10-24 07:53:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;talbot
 899 2013-10-24 07:53:18 <gribble> Error: "talbot" is not a valid command.
 900 2013-10-24 07:53:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uhh
 901 2013-10-24 07:53:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;tslb
 902 2013-10-24 07:53:29 <gribble> Time since last block: 29 seconds
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 905 2013-10-24 07:54:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;tblb [calc 23*60]
 906 2013-10-24 07:54:09 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 23 minutes and 0 seconds to generate is 4 hours, 19 minutes, and 58 seconds
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 909 2013-10-24 07:54:44 <swulf--> hehe, right as i said something...
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 944 2013-10-24 08:06:11 <swulf--> sipa: arg
 945 2013-10-24 08:06:14 <swulf--> http://pastebin.com/9ZuUZiJH
 946 2013-10-24 08:06:20 <swulf--> every single time the same exact block fails
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 949 2013-10-24 08:10:37 <swulf--> is there anything wrong with block 265565 ?
 950 2013-10-24 08:11:52 <melvster> this? http://blockchain.info/block-height/265565
 951 2013-10-24 08:12:25 <swulf--> there's a fork here
 952 2013-10-24 08:12:42 dparrish_ has joined
 953 2013-10-24 08:13:37 <swulf--> -reindex fails 100% out of 10 tries when it gets to block 265565
 954 2013-10-24 08:13:40 <swulf--> why??
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 956 2013-10-24 08:14:36 <melvster> is it normal for there to be two entries in 'next blocks' ?
 957 2013-10-24 08:15:11 <melvster> Height	265566 (Orphaned)
 958 2013-10-24 08:15:21 <melvster> the other is btc guild
 959 2013-10-24 08:15:45 <swulf--> yeah it's "normal" in that it creates a chain fork
 960 2013-10-24 08:15:50 <swulf--> eventually one of the chains should win though
 961 2013-10-24 08:17:00 <swulf--> and this should NOT break bitcoind
 962 2013-10-24 08:17:14 <swulf--> seems to only be happening on my machine?
 963 2013-10-24 08:17:30 <melvster> let me fire up qt
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 968 2013-10-24 08:20:16 <petertodd> Krellan: I've got replacement code already written actually; being able to replace unconfirmed is controversial, but changing that code to only allow a replacement if the new outputs are a superset of the old is trivial and Eligius has said in the past they're open to such experimentation.
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 971 2013-10-24 08:21:51 <petertodd> Krellan: fee estimation's got some issues: for instance miners that mine transactions in exchange for out-of-band compensation screw up the estimates and make it likely that your transactions will get stuck, especially if you're trying to be frugal. (which sounds like you are)
 972 2013-10-24 08:22:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: what happens if you remove the problematic block (and whatever blocks come after it) from the blocks/ folder and reindex?
 973 2013-10-24 08:22:14 <melvster> those next two blocks were in 4 seconds of each other but one got orphaned straight away
 974 2013-10-24 08:22:32 <petertodd> Krellan: broadcasting a double-spend with a higher fee assumes that relay nodes mempools have similar behaviors to miner nodes, and that's not at all true
 975 2013-10-24 08:22:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;calc [bc,blocks]-265565
 976 2013-10-24 08:22:40 <gribble> Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
 977 2013-10-24 08:22:40 <swulf--> michagog: and how do I remove the "problematic" block when they're in a special leveldb database?
 978 2013-10-24 08:23:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: figure out which .blk has that blocks
 979 2013-10-24 08:23:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|-s
 980 2013-10-24 08:23:22 dparrish_ has joined
 981 2013-10-24 08:23:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And then delete that file and any after it
 982 2013-10-24 08:23:34 saulimus has joined
 983 2013-10-24 08:23:45 <swulf--> hmm
 984 2013-10-24 08:23:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;calc [bc,blocks] - 265565
 985 2013-10-24 08:23:56 <gribble> 138
 986 2013-10-24 08:23:58 <swulf--> i've already done this though
 987 2013-10-24 08:24:13 <swulf--> i started from a .bitcoin backup around block 258000, and it died exactly at 265565 again
 988 2013-10-24 08:24:43 TD[away] is now known as TD
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 990 2013-10-24 08:24:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It died when downloading that block from a peer?
 991 2013-10-24 08:24:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|o_O
 992 2013-10-24 08:24:59 <swulf--> yes
 993 2013-10-24 08:25:09 <swulf--> it dies during the reindex
 994 2013-10-24 08:25:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is this the 0.8.5 release binary?
 995 2013-10-24 08:25:18 <petertodd> sipa: "no-one but the merchant should be responsible" <- you including fees there too? because that'll drive demand for out-of-band fee payment that screws up fee estimation
 996 2013-10-24 08:25:32 <swulf--> michagogo: happens with both 0.8.5 and 0.8.3 releases
 997 2013-10-24 08:25:33 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 998 2013-10-24 08:25:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Huh.
 999 2013-10-24 08:26:04 <swulf--> i'm gonna build github head and try it
1000 2013-10-24 08:26:13 <swulf--> but i don't think its going to fix anything
1001 2013-10-24 08:26:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Have you tried starting from scratch?
1002 2013-10-24 08:26:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(New datadir with bootstrap.dat)
1003 2013-10-24 08:26:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If *that* fails...
1004 2013-10-24 08:27:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or even a fresh datadir, copying just the blocks/*.blk files
1005 2013-10-24 08:27:50 toffoo has joined
1006 2013-10-24 08:28:38 dparrish_ has joined
1007 2013-10-24 08:28:58 <swulf--> haven't done those two yet
1008 2013-10-24 08:29:09 <swulf--> i really don't have the time to wait 3 days for a sync to complete
1009 2013-10-24 08:29:16 <swulf--> this should have been up yesterday:(
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1011 2013-10-24 08:30:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: try the fresh datadir with just the block files
1012 2013-10-24 08:30:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That shouldn't take any longer than -reindex, I don't think
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1015 2013-10-24 08:34:20 <swulf--> well
1016 2013-10-24 08:34:24 <swulf--> reindex already takes 8+ hours
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1018 2013-10-24 08:36:03 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1019 2013-10-24 08:36:15 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: no difference
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1022 2013-10-24 08:39:17 <swulf--> sipa: didyou see the pastebin?
1023 2013-10-24 08:39:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: no difference between what and what?
1024 2013-10-24 08:40:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|blocks/*.dat and bootstrap.dat?
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1026 2013-10-24 08:40:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|er, blocks/*.blk, I mean
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1033 2013-10-24 08:44:58 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
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1036 2013-10-24 08:47:08 <swulf--> the line that concerns me the most is:
1037 2013-10-24 08:47:09 <swulf--> ERROR: CScriptCheck() : 5aa291d7db8f4e5852b8f61e78fb707fd41c06784d8654222f66ce3372d5fe7c VerifySignature failed
1038 2013-10-24 08:47:26 <swulf--> so i lookup the txn and everything looks just fine
1039 2013-10-24 08:47:36 <swulf--> i have to wonder if there's some Intel Atom bug making this particular verification fail
1040 2013-10-24 08:49:02 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: more likely disk corruption
1041 2013-10-24 08:49:12 <swulf--> Luke: in the same place, every time?
1042 2013-10-24 08:49:26 <Luke-Jr> swulf--: well, it's not uncorrupting!
1043 2013-10-24 08:49:32 dparrish_ has joined
1044 2013-10-24 08:49:42 <swulf--> Luke: I start from a fresh copy of the db every time
1045 2013-10-24 08:49:45 <swulf--> one that I know is good
1046 2013-10-24 08:49:52 <Luke-Jr> why do you assume it's good?
1047 2013-10-24 08:50:41 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1048 2013-10-24 08:50:44 <swulf--> one could always default to things like memory and disk problems
1049 2013-10-24 08:50:50 execut3 has joined
1050 2013-10-24 08:50:57 <swulf--> but I think that might be shuffling aside something that's a real issue ?
1051 2013-10-24 08:51:34 <swulf--> the behaviour isn't typical of a corrupted disk problem
1052 2013-10-24 08:51:43 <Luke-Jr> could be, but 99.9% of the time, that's what it is
1053 2013-10-24 08:51:46 <Luke-Jr> yes it is
1054 2013-10-24 08:51:58 <Luke-Jr> that's exactly how a minor disk corruption problem would manifest
1055 2013-10-24 08:52:14 <swulf--> if i start with a smaller db blockchain (~258k blocks) and an empty chainstate, it fails on adding block 265566 10/10 times now
1056 2013-10-24 08:52:33 <swulf--> If I did this same experiment on a separate disk would it be convincing enough?
1057 2013-10-24 08:52:33 <Luke-Jr> so with a -reindex basically?
1058 2013-10-24 08:52:39 neep3r has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1059 2013-10-24 08:52:59 <swulf--> More than reindex though, it also redownloads the chain past block 258k
1060 2013-10-24 08:53:09 <Luke-Jr> the problem is likely before 258k
1061 2013-10-24 08:54:04 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1062 2013-10-24 08:54:23 <Luke-Jr> looks like it'd be closer to 200k
1063 2013-10-24 08:54:25 <swulf--> what clues point you towards that conclusion?
1064 2013-10-24 08:54:37 <Luke-Jr> 5aa291d7db8f4e5852b8f61e78fb707fd41c06784d8654222f66ce3372d5fe7c's inputs are all from around block 200k
1065 2013-10-24 08:54:52 <swulf--> interesting
1066 2013-10-24 08:54:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: d'you have a copy of bootstrap.dat@250000?
1067 2013-10-24 08:55:05 <swulf--> michagogo: where can I get it?
1068 2013-10-24 08:55:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google site:bitcointalk.org bootstrap.dat
1069 2013-10-24 08:55:25 <gribble> [BETA] Bitcoin blockchain torrent - Bitcoin Forum: <https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117982.0>; [ANN] Bitcoin blockchain data torrent - Bitcoin Forum: <https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0>; How long does bootstrap.dat take to import? - Bitcoin Forum: <https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130160.0>
1070 2013-10-24 08:55:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The second link
1071 2013-10-24 08:55:44 <swulf--> nice
1072 2013-10-24 08:56:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Try deleting the .blk files past block 200k or so, and rein sexing on that
1073 2013-10-24 08:56:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh, wtf autocorrect?
1074 2013-10-24 08:56:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Reinforcing
1075 2013-10-24 08:57:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...
1076 2013-10-24 08:57:06 <melvster> lol
1077 2013-10-24 08:57:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Reindexing
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1080 2013-10-24 08:57:58 <swulf--> all right
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1134 2013-10-24 10:01:44 <gmaxwell> We need to determine if there are any other transactions in the chain similar to ebc9fa1196a59e192352d76c0f6e73167046b9d37b8302b6bb6968dfd279b767  and what heights they are at .
1135 2013-10-24 10:02:21 dparrish has joined
1136 2013-10-24 10:02:22 <gmaxwell> (mildly urgently)
1137 2013-10-24 10:03:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I can do that, so anything with invalid pushdata?
1138 2013-10-24 10:03:20 <feddy3> because the script is short, right?
1139 2013-10-24 10:03:20 dparrish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1140 2013-10-24 10:03:27 transactionsign1 has joined
1141 2013-10-24 10:03:31 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Yes please.
1142 2013-10-24 10:04:18 <swulf--> looks like the script is incomplete
1143 2013-10-24 10:04:26 <swulf--> http://blockchain.info/tx/ebc9fa1196a59e192352d76c0f6e73167046b9d37b8302b6bb6968dfd279b767?show_adv=true breaks blockchain
1144 2013-10-24 10:04:30 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1145 2013-10-24 10:04:52 <ThomasV> whoever did it seems to have had a lot of fun
1146 2013-10-24 10:05:03 <transactionsign1> Hello I need help with an issue, I'm signing a P2SH tx right now
1147 2013-10-24 10:05:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|swulf--: not exactly incomplete -- more like invalid
1148 2013-10-24 10:05:15 <swulf--> i thought i mentioned a tx like this a couple days ago
1149 2013-10-24 10:05:24 <gmaxwell> swulf--: you did.
1150 2013-10-24 10:05:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That txid rings a bell
1151 2013-10-24 10:05:31 <gmaxwell> swulf--: can you send me your debug.log from your node that was failing on reindex?
1152 2013-10-24 10:05:39 <swulf--> it broke my software and i had to "fix" it
1153 2013-10-24 10:05:53 <swulf--> gmaxwell: that's an entirely different issue?
1154 2013-10-24 10:05:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: youre not worried about scriptSigs right?
1155 2013-10-24 10:06:15 <gmaxwell> I believe we have another utxo data corruption issue.
1156 2013-10-24 10:06:20 <petertodd> lovely
1157 2013-10-24 10:06:41 agricocb has joined
1158 2013-10-24 10:06:47 <swulf--> gmaxwell: i restarted the reindex a few hours ago- if the error happens again i'll send you the debug.log
1159 2013-10-24 10:06:52 <swulf--> (i suspect it will)
1160 2013-10-24 10:07:16 <gmaxwell> swulf--: you don't have the old one do you?  In any case, can you tell me if it failed during the reindex or if you restarted first and then it failed?
1161 2013-10-24 10:07:47 <swulf--> it fails both on reindex as well as during blockchain download (I think it fails during block verification + adding to chain)
1162 2013-10-24 10:08:00 <swulf--> i might have an old one
1163 2013-10-24 10:08:13 <gmaxwell> swulf--: I can't tell from your answer if a restart is involved.
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1167 2013-10-24 10:08:46 <swulf--> by 'restart' you mean restarting the entire blockchain sync?
1168 2013-10-24 10:09:05 <gmaxwell> swulf--: I mean restarting the node. Exiting it and starting it again.
1169 2013-10-24 10:09:15 <swulf--> looks like i don't have a debug.log (i tend to use -printtoconsole) but the current reindex is going to debug.log
1170 2013-10-24 10:09:35 <swulf--> gmaxwell: i restart every time the error shows up. no other operations work otherwise
1171 2013-10-24 10:09:39 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1172 2013-10-24 10:09:51 <swulf--> i dont' always reindex, usually i delete the chainstate and copy in one that i believe is in a good state
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1175 2013-10-24 10:10:15 <gmaxwell> swulf--: but it wasn't like, reindex, restart, failure, stop, copy in chainstate, continue
1176 2013-10-24 10:10:18 <gmaxwell> ?
1177 2013-10-24 10:10:25 _ingsoc has joined
1178 2013-10-24 10:10:31 <sipa> the one you are copying in may well be corrupted already, undetectably
1179 2013-10-24 10:10:56 <swulf--> it's more like: failure, stop, delete chainstate, copy in good one, start   OR   failure, stop, copy in good blk db + good chainstate, start
1180 2013-10-24 10:11:09 <swulf--> sipa: that's true
1181 2013-10-24 10:11:17 <sipa> but have yoi done an actual reindex, ever?
1182 2013-10-24 10:11:35 <sipa> as in start with -reindex
1183 2013-10-24 10:11:40 <swulf--> the "good one" that i'm copying from was built with a reindex
1184 2013-10-24 10:11:47 <swulf--> once it finished successfully, i stopped and made a backup
1185 2013-10-24 10:11:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ok, running my script
1186 2013-10-24 10:11:55 _ingsoc has quit (Client Quit)
1187 2013-10-24 10:12:06 <sipa> swulf--: hmmz
1188 2013-10-24 10:12:29 <gmaxwell> swulf--: your failure is non-determinstic?
1189 2013-10-24 10:12:36 <swulf--> seems very deterministic at this point
1190 2013-10-24 10:12:45 <gmaxwell> swulf--: how did you finish successfully?
1191 2013-10-24 10:12:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: if there is a suspected incorrectly stored txout, use gettxout on a node that git past it
1192 2013-10-24 10:12:58 <swulf--> dies when it tries to add block 265566 to 265565
1193 2013-10-24 10:13:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, just did that.
1194 2013-10-24 10:13:02 <swulf--> gmax: did you see my pastebin?
1195 2013-10-24 10:13:15 <swulf--> gmax: http://pastebin.com/9ZuUZiJH
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1197 2013-10-24 10:13:22 <sipa> swulf--: if you use a chainstate from the same reindex, it will likely fail at the same point
1198 2013-10-24 10:13:45 <sipa> swulf--: the question is whether different reindexes result in a cgainstate that dies at a different point
1199 2013-10-24 10:13:45 <swulf--> makes sense ;)
1200 2013-10-24 10:13:59 <swulf--> right
1201 2013-10-24 10:14:12 <sipa> so a full new reindex will tell us what we need
1202 2013-10-24 10:14:12 dparrish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1203 2013-10-24 10:14:13 <swulf--> my problem is that reindex takes hours, if not an entire day, on this intel atom
1204 2013-10-24 10:14:29 <sipa> did you boost dbcache?
1205 2013-10-24 10:14:39 <sipa> or is memory too tight
1206 2013-10-24 10:14:59 <swulf--> it doesn't improve the performance that much
1207 2013-10-24 10:15:05 <sipa> ok
1208 2013-10-24 10:15:13 <swulf--> memory is fine, but i think it's cpu bound
1209 2013-10-24 10:15:18 <sipa> that surprises me, tbh
1210 2013-10-24 10:15:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: they appear fine, annoyingly.
1211 2013-10-24 10:15:40 <sipa> after block 250k, iTT should be cpu bound
1212 2013-10-24 10:15:49 <sipa> but before that, less sure
1213 2013-10-24 10:16:07 <null> atom stinks, slow in-order design. might be cpu-bound well before crowded blocks
1214 2013-10-24 10:16:12 <gmaxwell> swulf--: in the future when you're doing something snazzy like swapping in another database, please try to make sure we understand what you did.
1215 2013-10-24 10:16:22 <gmaxwell> :P
1216 2013-10-24 10:16:28 <swulf--> null: right.. it gets to 150-190k blocks at a reasonable rate, and 190-260 just takes forever
1217 2013-10-24 10:16:39 <swulf--> gmaxwell: Point noted ;)
1218 2013-10-24 10:17:29 <sipa> null: has nothing to do with crowdedneas
1219 2013-10-24 10:17:42 <sipa> null: before the last checkpoint, signature checks are disabled
1220 2013-10-24 10:18:12 <swulf--> oh they are?
1221 2013-10-24 10:18:16 <swulf--> mm
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1223 2013-10-24 10:19:10 <petertodd> gmaxwell: it's the only one on mainnet
1224 2013-10-24 10:19:11 <null> i see, then it's weird indeed.
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1226 2013-10-24 10:19:30 <gmaxwell> petertodd: thank you.
1227 2013-10-24 10:19:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: my script read block's directly, so it checked a decent number of orphans too
1228 2013-10-24 10:20:17 <gmaxwell> petertodd: do you have any way to reindex to just one or two blocks after that height on a bitcoin node and then restart and see if the consistency check passes.
1229 2013-10-24 10:20:17 dparrish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1230 2013-10-24 10:20:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, so reindex, and make it stop at a specific height?
1231 2013-10-24 10:20:57 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the reason I was asking for any other was because swulf reported issues at a much higher height than my reproduction has. .. so I was wondering if there was more than one.
1232 2013-10-24 10:21:03 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1233 2013-10-24 10:21:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: huh, so you think the truncated pushdata corrupts the UTXO database?
1234 2013-10-24 10:21:41 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yes, stop at 265458+n where n is somewhere between 2 and 30.
1235 2013-10-24 10:22:04 <sipa> petertodd: no evidence for that, but it may be related
1236 2013-10-24 10:22:29 <gmaxwell> petertodd: what I know right now is that I have a node that fails consistency check. It was shut down 30 blocks after that transaction. The block is fails the consistency check on is the one with that transaction.  I am about to be on a 10 hour international flight. I want someone else with a reproduction.
1237 2013-10-24 10:22:47 <gmaxwell> (so I'm trying to find a way to reproduce it with one of you right now, more than I'm trying to figure out the cause)
1238 2013-10-24 10:23:17 <sipa> ok
1239 2013-10-24 10:23:28 <gmaxwell> petertodd: in particular my failure of consistency check is repeatable. I moved my chainstate and had it reindex. Then I restarted (to unset connect=0.0.0.0) and it failed.
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1243 2013-10-24 10:24:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: alright, give me a sec to backup .bitcoin...
1244 2013-10-24 10:24:07 JDuke256 has joined
1245 2013-10-24 10:24:18 <swulf--> gmaxwell: less than 2 hours and i should have a debug.log -- is that too late?
1246 2013-10-24 10:24:19 debiantoruser has joined
1247 2013-10-24 10:24:24 <gmaxwell> (with the same failure). So I assign high probablity to something in that block (or the next one) containing something that the consistency check fails on.
1248 2013-10-24 10:24:53 <gmaxwell> swulf--: for me personally, yea, but not for other people who would be interested (if it fails again)
1249 2013-10-24 10:25:10 <swulf--> ok, I'll share the logfile when if/when it happens again
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1251 2013-10-24 10:25:11 <gmaxwell> Since that trick transaction happened to be in the same block, I thought it was a good first guess.
1252 2013-10-24 10:25:38 <swulf--> it feels like there's definitely something weird in the 265470-265570 area of blocks
1253 2013-10-24 10:26:15 <swulf--> there was also a chain fork at 265565-265566 which could be related?
1254 2013-10-24 10:28:01 <MC1984> this reads like a big deal
1255 2013-10-24 10:28:40 wbill has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1256 2013-10-24 10:28:53 <MC1984> you know ive got a quadcore now
1257 2013-10-24 10:29:04 dparrish_ has joined
1258 2013-10-24 10:29:35 <MC1984> i can do a sync from scratch sometime after 6pm uk
1259 2013-10-24 10:29:48 testnode9 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1260 2013-10-24 10:29:54 <MC1984> if it helps
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1263 2013-10-24 10:32:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: reindexing now
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1269 2013-10-24 10:40:34 <petertodd> oh, FWIW, I'm doing this on git master; it may be that there is a difference from older because of the provably unspendable test of course
1270 2013-10-24 10:41:25 <null> would a reindex with the ubuntu package be of any use?
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1273 2013-10-24 10:46:06 <jgarzik> 2013-10-24 10:42:40 LoadBlockIndexDB(): hashBestChain=0000000000000008c9f138040edc8e6a934cb470fe7eee23bb69ec4f49a37344  height=265555 date=2013-10-23 15:28:57
1274 2013-10-24 10:46:06 <jgarzik> 2013-10-24 10:42:40 init message: Verifying blocks...
1275 2013-10-24 10:46:06 <jgarzik> 2013-10-24 10:42:40 Verifying last 288 blocks at level 3
1276 2013-10-24 10:46:06 <jgarzik> 2013-10-24 10:43:16 ERROR: DisconnectBlock() : outputs still spent? database corrupted
1277 2013-10-24 10:46:06 <jgarzik> 2013-10-24 10:43:19 ERROR: VerifyDB() : *** coin database inconsistencies found (last 98 blocks, 20939 good transactions before that)
1278 2013-10-24 10:46:13 <jgarzik> hum
1279 2013-10-24 10:46:38 Polyatomic has quit (Quit: Catcha Round)
1280 2013-10-24 10:46:49 macboz has joined
1281 2013-10-24 10:48:36 <jgarzik> normal shutdown here
1282 2013-10-24 10:48:51 <jgarzik> underlying filesystem is checksummed and shows no problems
1283 2013-10-24 10:48:58 <jgarzik> so, double-hrm
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1288 2013-10-24 10:53:23 <transactionsign1> Hi guys, can someone help me with an issue?
1289 2013-10-24 10:53:54 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1290 2013-10-24 10:54:16 Nesetalis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1291 2013-10-24 10:54:24 Nesetalis has joined
1292 2013-10-24 10:55:09 <transactionsign1> Hello?
1293 2013-10-24 10:55:27 dparrish_ has joined
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1303 2013-10-24 11:06:29 <tgs3> hi transactionsign1
1304 2013-10-24 11:06:37 <transactionsign1> Hello
1305 2013-10-24 11:06:46 <tgs3> transactionsign1: no, we all sworn to never help anyone with problem of any nature
1306 2013-10-24 11:06:50 pososin has joined
1307 2013-10-24 11:06:55 <Scrat> transactionsign1: dont ask to ask, just ask
1308 2013-10-24 11:06:55 <transactionsign1> hahahaa
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1310 2013-10-24 11:07:25 <transactionsign1> I need to understand scriptPubKey, I'm trying to createrawtransaction for a P2SH tx
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1313 2013-10-24 11:07:25 skinnkavaj has joined
1314 2013-10-24 11:08:15 <transactionsign1> Main problem is that I have no idea what to fill out for scriptPubKey:
1315 2013-10-24 11:08:43 <tgs3> transactionsign1: all people that create bitcoin (except satoshi ;) are here; if you get no reply then fell free to try again a bit later, or ask mailing list for bitcoin developers
1316 2013-10-24 11:09:20 <transactionsign1> Thanks, did you get my question?
1317 2013-10-24 11:09:38 <transactionsign1> I think it's probably a trivial thing
1318 2013-10-24 11:09:45 <transactionsign1> scriptPubKey
1319 2013-10-24 11:09:49 Dyaheon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1320 2013-10-24 11:09:58 <tgs3> transactionsign1: I'm not sure, but someone else will know
1321 2013-10-24 11:10:04 Nesetalis has joined
1322 2013-10-24 11:10:06 <transactionsign1> Ok, thankk
1323 2013-10-24 11:10:35 jgarzik is now known as jg_home
1324 2013-10-24 11:10:59 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
1325 2013-10-24 11:11:51 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
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1327 2013-10-24 11:13:35 mbelshe has quit (Quit: mbelshe)
1328 2013-10-24 11:14:01 killerstorm has joined
1329 2013-10-24 11:14:40 <killerstorm> Did you check examples here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions#See_Also ?
1330 2013-10-24 11:17:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=315509.0 <- can the problem be shown on testnet?
1331 2013-10-24 11:18:08 <transactionsign1> @killerstorm I did, but I still don't understand what is being hashed with scriptPubKey
1332 2013-10-24 11:18:34 Muis_ has joined
1333 2013-10-24 11:18:40 <killerstorm> Are you doing something other than multi-signature?
1334 2013-10-24 11:18:48 moleccc has joined
1335 2013-10-24 11:18:54 <transactionsign1> I'm doing MultiSig P2SH
1336 2013-10-24 11:19:11 <killerstorm> Well, in that case bitcoind's API already does everything for you.
1337 2013-10-24 11:19:15 <transactionsign1> oh
1338 2013-10-24 11:19:22 Muis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1339 2013-10-24 11:19:29 molec has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1340 2013-10-24 11:19:29 <transactionsign1> then what do I with it?
1341 2013-10-24 11:19:31 roybadami has joined
1342 2013-10-24 11:19:57 molec has joined
1343 2013-10-24 11:20:05 <killerstorm> createmultisig creates a script for multisignature, hashes it and gives you an address which is actually a hash of the script.
1344 2013-10-24 11:20:14 edcba__ has joined
1345 2013-10-24 11:20:20 <transactionsign1> Yep, I've done that
1346 2013-10-24 11:20:23 Jamesz has joined
1347 2013-10-24 11:20:28 warren has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1348 2013-10-24 11:20:28 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1349 2013-10-24 11:20:28 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1350 2013-10-24 11:20:47 <transactionsign1> createmultisig, gotten the 3Hqh...ect address
1351 2013-10-24 11:20:48 Aexoden_ has joined
1352 2013-10-24 11:20:51 <transactionsign1> and the redeem script
1353 2013-10-24 11:20:52 edcba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1354 2013-10-24 11:20:52 midnightmagic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1355 2013-10-24 11:21:12 zacm_ has joined
1356 2013-10-24 11:21:16 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1358 2013-10-24 11:21:17 sipa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1359 2013-10-24 11:21:27 <killerstorm> And...?
1360 2013-10-24 11:21:40 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1363 2013-10-24 11:21:41 <killerstorm> When you give this address to bitcoind, it uses P2SH
1364 2013-10-24 11:21:56 <killerstorm> It creates scriptPubKey automatically
1365 2013-10-24 11:21:57 <transactionsign1> well I have successfully sent some BTC to the P2SH address
1366 2013-10-24 11:22:18 <transactionsign1> I don't know how to send coins OUT/FROM of the address
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1376 2013-10-24 11:24:20 <killerstorm> Ah, so you need signrawtransaction
1377 2013-10-24 11:24:27 <killerstorm> Do you have transaction hex?
1378 2013-10-24 11:24:56 <transactionsign1> I'm not sure what the transaction hex is
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1380 2013-10-24 11:25:17 <killerstorm> nevermind... wait a second
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1382 2013-10-24 11:26:04 <transactionsign1> I'm at the createrawtransaction stage and stuck on the scriptPubKey because I don't know what scriptPubKey is supposed to hash
1383 2013-10-24 11:26:10 <transactionsign1> *be a hash of
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1390 2013-10-24 11:31:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: just another 4k blocks to go
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1395 2013-10-24 11:38:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm at 265479, 0000000000000000684ef78c044d92fd3fbcae3b315a56f230e36f19de66d41c. What do you want me to do now?
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1400 2013-10-24 11:40:12 <sipa> petertodd: shut down and start again
1401 2013-10-24 11:41:41 <petertodd> 2013-10-24 11:39:18 ERROR: DisconnectBlock() : outputs still spent? database corrupted
1402 2013-10-24 11:41:46 <petertodd> 2013-10-24 11:39:21 ERROR: VerifyDB() : *** coin database inconsistencies found (last 22 blocks, 34464 good transactions before that)
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1422 2013-10-24 12:00:21 <swulf--> petertodd: nice.
1423 2013-10-24 12:01:06 <sipa> swulf--: this seems to be a different issue than yours
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1427 2013-10-24 12:06:09 <swulf--> ah, ok
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1429 2013-10-24 12:06:24 <swulf--> the one petertodd is looking at is related to that weird tx without bogus script size?
1430 2013-10-24 12:06:30 <swulf--> s/without/with*
1431 2013-10-24 12:06:32 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, I checked and it's quitting right at 82eab6b0a5e9e66517fd71f973023ecb9c1839bb569514136fe60482f724e174, which is a bare OP_RETURN, not the weird one
1432 2013-10-24 12:06:49 <petertodd> though the two are adjacent int he block, which might be a clue
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1436 2013-10-24 12:08:07 <petertodd> looking at CTxInUndo right now...
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1461 2013-10-24 12:40:41 <petertodd> sipa: I'm not understanding the view.HaveCoins(hash) line, from what I see that should fail, because it's a transaction with only unspendable outputs, so the whole record in the UTXO database should have been deleted. But I would have thought that case would have been tested already...
1462 2013-10-24 12:41:14 <petertodd> Maybe not? I could re-index to a different, earlier, single OP_RETURN txout and test that theory.
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1465 2013-10-24 12:44:13 <petertodd> also, as an asside "assert(inputs.SetCoins(txhash, CCoins(tx, nHeight)));" in UpdateCoins() is dangerous - what if assert() is disabled...
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1472 2013-10-24 12:47:06 <sipa> petertodd: that definitely sounds like an issue
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1474 2013-10-24 12:47:23 <sipa> petertodd: i'm not sure the all-outputs-are-unspendable case was ever tested
1475 2013-10-24 12:47:26 <swulf--> petertodd: file?
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1477 2013-10-24 12:48:06 <sipa> petertodd: because the pruning happens inside CCoins, ConnectTransaction should probably do a check whether the tx's outputs aren't all spent before attempting to push it to the coins set
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1479 2013-10-24 12:48:25 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, so UpdateCoins() calls SetCoins() with CCoins() which would clear the unspendable outputs, leaving the CCoins empty
1480 2013-10-24 12:48:48 <petertodd> sipa: you mean ConnectBlock?
1481 2013-10-24 12:48:55 <wumpus> it's not safe to compile bitcoin without asserts in any case
1482 2013-10-24 12:49:07 <petertodd> wumpus: yeah, noticed that's done in more places than just that
1483 2013-10-24 12:49:12 <sipa> petertodd: right, perhaps
1484 2013-10-24 12:49:19 <sipa> not looking at the code now
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1487 2013-10-24 12:50:20 <wumpus> petertodd: yes, quite some work is done in assert clauses, and it is used for quite some mandatory sanity checks too, I wouldn't trust a bitcoind without asserts in either case
1488 2013-10-24 12:50:22 <swulf--> wumpus: that's ridiculus. is the code _that_ bad that it breaks in optimized non-debug builds?
1489 2013-10-24 12:50:32 <prophet10x> bntw if you guys want to stats on commits and stuff this is a great analytics tool, i'm using the data from it for my thesis https://www.ohloh.net/p/bitcoin
1490 2013-10-24 12:50:42 <wumpus> swulf--: assertions are enabled in non-debug builds
1491 2013-10-24 12:50:44 <prophet10x> to see*
1492 2013-10-24 12:50:56 <petertodd> 08:48 < wumpus> petertodd: yes, quite some work is done in assert clauses, and it is used for quite some mandatory sanity
1493 2013-10-24 12:50:59 <petertodd> oops
1494 2013-10-24 12:51:03 <swulf--> wumpus: at the expensove of performance, I guess
1495 2013-10-24 12:51:08 <swulf--> expense of*
1496 2013-10-24 12:51:16 <wumpus> swulf--: no, we don't do assertions in performance critical places either way
1497 2013-10-24 12:51:31 <petertodd> sipa: Might be enough to just make the view.HaveCoins(hash) test allow the coins to not be there if every tx output is unspendable
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1500 2013-10-24 12:53:22 <sipa> petertodd: that may be unsafe
1501 2013-10-24 12:53:36 <sipa> i'm not sure how much depends on it
1502 2013-10-24 12:54:07 <petertodd> sipa: well, my logic is that in that one case that *is* the correct state of the UTXO set; the DisconnectBlock() code is assuming the wrong thing
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1506 2013-10-24 12:55:15 <wumpus> bitcoin is just too critical to make it worth disabling assertions even if it would gain a little bit of performance, maybe we should define an assert-like function() that cannot be disabled with NDEBUG
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1508 2013-10-24 12:55:57 <sipa> the code going into an inconsistent state is likely worse than crashing
1509 2013-10-24 12:56:02 <swulf--> wumpus: if it were critical software, asserts are the wrong solution. asserts terminate the software, and "production" software would handle these errors gracefully
1510 2013-10-24 12:56:07 <wumpus> sipa: exactly!
1511 2013-10-24 12:56:18 <sipa> there is one exception
1512 2013-10-24 12:56:19 <wumpus> swulf--: you're wrong there, see sipa's reply
1513 2013-10-24 12:56:40 <sipa> if there would be an exploit that can cause massive assert failure across the network
1514 2013-10-24 12:56:40 <wumpus> most errors are handled gracefully
1515 2013-10-24 12:56:47 <wumpus> asserts are only used for things that should never happen
1516 2013-10-24 12:56:58 <wumpus> if things are really, really messed up
1517 2013-10-24 12:57:27 <wumpus> sipa: then again, it's better than sending the entire network into an inconsistent state
1518 2013-10-24 12:57:39 <sipa> probably
1519 2013-10-24 12:57:40 <wumpus> which may mean being able to manipulate things that should not be
1520 2013-10-24 12:57:59 <wumpus> it's a bad scenario either way
1521 2013-10-24 12:59:15 <wumpus> it's just not possible to handle all errors gracefully, that'd imply that there's some kind of intelligence behind it that can solve unknown bugs and even hardware corruptions
1522 2013-10-24 12:59:48 <swulf--> Well, in my experience, the typical "oh shit, should never happen" asserts are out of memory errors
1523 2013-10-24 13:00:01 <swulf--> and typically assert-free code will just exit(-1)
1524 2013-10-24 13:00:06 <wumpus> memory errors are not handled through assert in bitcoin
1525 2013-10-24 13:00:16 <swulf--> i didn't claim they were
1526 2013-10-24 13:00:28 <swulf--> was giving an example of a typical OSSNH assert
1527 2013-10-24 13:01:20 <swulf--> writing code with side-effects in assert statements is just bad programming especially in cross-platform software where you can't always predict the behavior of the assert implementation
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1530 2013-10-24 13:02:52 <wumpus> swulf--: I think you're preaching to the choir there
1531 2013-10-24 13:02:58 <wumpus> swulf--: feel free to submit pull request
1532 2013-10-24 13:03:00 <swulf--> ah, ok:)
1533 2013-10-24 13:03:11 <swulf--> wumpus... I may have to ;)
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1536 2013-10-24 13:04:39 <petertodd> sipa: ok, that worked
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1540 2013-10-24 13:06:38 <petertodd> sipa: we haven't shipped the IsUnspendable() stuff in a release right?
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1544 2013-10-24 13:07:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: you mean op_return pruning? No.
1545 2013-10-24 13:07:46 <petertodd> good
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1555 2013-10-24 13:12:20 <petertodd> sipa, gmaxwell: Ok, I think this patch fixes the issue: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3143
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1558 2013-10-24 13:17:41 <sipa> hmm, looks overcomplicated, but i'll have a closer look later
1559 2013-10-24 13:18:01 <sipa> if there is no release with op_return pruning, i don't think this is urgent
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1562 2013-10-24 13:19:56 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, I'm sure it can be tightened up, but at least I seem to have identified the problem.
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1564 2013-10-24 13:20:04 <sipa> petertodd: thanks for that!
1565 2013-10-24 13:20:14 <petertodd> sipa: anyway, I gotta go, later
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1574 2013-10-24 13:26:58 <davout> clear
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1636 2013-10-24 14:27:15 <jgarzik> mornin'
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1647 2013-10-24 14:33:03 <TD> good morning jg_home
1648 2013-10-24 14:33:05 <TD> oops
1649 2013-10-24 14:33:07 <TD> i meant, jgarzik
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1661 2013-10-24 14:59:29 <BlueMatt> morning jgarzik
1662 2013-10-24 14:59:33 <BlueMatt> , TD
1663 2013-10-24 15:02:39 <TD> BlueMatt is alive!!
1664 2013-10-24 15:03:06 dparrish_ has joined
1665 2013-10-24 15:03:10 <BlueMatt> (and done interviewing for this summer, meaning Im actually home on weekends and have a tiny, itsy bit of freetime now :)
1666 2013-10-24 15:03:14 <sipa> That's what they *want* you to think
1667 2013-10-24 15:03:22 ambimorph has joined
1668 2013-10-24 15:03:33 <TD> haha
1669 2013-10-24 15:03:44 <TD> no such thing as free time. merely time that isn't allocated yet
1670 2013-10-24 15:04:10 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1671 2013-10-24 15:04:16 <BlueMatt> well, its probably allocated somewhere between research and fixing bitcoin stuff, but...
1672 2013-10-24 15:04:36 <TD> research?
1673 2013-10-24 15:05:10 * BlueMatt is making his fancy ridiculous drive encryption stuff formal research so he can get credit for stuff he does anyway
1674 2013-10-24 15:05:46 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1677 2013-10-24 15:07:12 <TD> cool!
1678 2013-10-24 15:07:13 datagutt has joined
1679 2013-10-24 15:07:25 <TD> did you see the thing about the truecrypt audit?
1680 2013-10-24 15:08:11 dparrish_ has joined
1681 2013-10-24 15:08:14 <BlueMatt> yea, I felt really special to be copied on the email about doing deterministic building using gitian for truecrypt windows :)
1682 2013-10-24 15:08:33 <BlueMatt> (truecrypt is still way less secure than my stuff though...)
1683 2013-10-24 15:09:28 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1684 2013-10-24 15:09:52 <petertodd> BlueMatt: hardware or software encryption?
1685 2013-10-24 15:09:54 <TD> oh, really? i thought truecrypt was supposed to be very good modulo the general sketchyness
1686 2013-10-24 15:10:14 [\\\] has joined
1687 2013-10-24 15:10:37 <BlueMatt> well, the issue is really dma attacks and memory dumping to steal your key
1688 2013-10-24 15:10:50 <BlueMatt> (so you keep it in processor registers and never let it leave)
1689 2013-10-24 15:10:53 <BlueMatt> petertodd: software
1690 2013-10-24 15:10:57 <petertodd> BlueMatt: ah
1691 2013-10-24 15:11:09 <petertodd> still sounds pretty decent
1692 2013-10-24 15:11:11 * BlueMatt just extends tresor, but does fun things
1693 2013-10-24 15:11:14 <TD> oh, neat. i hadn't seen this before: http://bitcoin.speedstats.org/
1694 2013-10-24 15:11:35 <TD> BlueMatt: right, i recall reading some techniques for this. stashing keys in debug registers, etc.
1695 2013-10-24 15:11:41 <petertodd> TD: gah, but it's not in fee/kb :(
1696 2013-10-24 15:11:59 <BlueMatt> TD: yes, there are other attacks against that too, which Im working on, essentially
1697 2013-10-24 15:13:28 dparrish_ has joined
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1699 2013-10-24 15:13:41 <TD> petertodd: its quite confusing, actually
1700 2013-10-24 15:13:44 <TD> but at least someone made one
1701 2013-10-24 15:14:00 <petertodd> TD: yes, fixing it should be a one line change pretty much
1702 2013-10-24 15:14:06 super3 has joined
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1705 2013-10-24 15:15:33 <BlueMatt> TD: would be cooler if it watched mempool instead of watching blocks...
1706 2013-10-24 15:15:37 xiangfu_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
1707 2013-10-24 15:15:57 <TD> petertodd: the site is a fail in another way - there's a tip address but no email address, and the github page doesn't seem to have one either
1708 2013-10-24 15:16:07 <super3> morning
1709 2013-10-24 15:16:08 bbrian has joined
1710 2013-10-24 15:16:21 <TD> hi there
1711 2013-10-24 15:16:21 reneg has joined
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1713 2013-10-24 15:16:53 <BlueMatt> TD: blockchain.info messages, to the rescue
1714 2013-10-24 15:16:54 <BlueMatt> ...
1715 2013-10-24 15:16:59 <TD> haha
1716 2013-10-24 15:17:08 * sipa kills BlueMatt
1717 2013-10-24 15:17:12 <BlueMatt> heh
1718 2013-10-24 15:17:16 <sipa> :p
1719 2013-10-24 15:17:17 * TD gets inordinately annoyed when people don't provide email addresses on their web pages
1720 2013-10-24 15:17:24 <TD> like they'll have a bitcoin address, a github, a twitter account, etc
1721 2013-10-24 15:17:25 <sipa> ehm
1722 2013-10-24 15:17:31 <TD> zero of which will provide any way to mail someone
1723 2013-10-24 15:17:33 * sipa checks
1724 2013-10-24 15:17:45 <sipa> :$
1725 2013-10-24 15:17:48 <super3> maybe its Satoshi :-P
1726 2013-10-24 15:17:55 <BlueMatt> TD: they expect you to dm them on twitter...
1727 2013-10-24 15:18:02 <BlueMatt> for those of us who dont have/use twitter...
1728 2013-10-24 15:18:19 <TD> i signed up for a twitter account a few weeks ago because i wanted to use medium.com, and for some reason they don't have their own login system. you NEED a twitter account
1729 2013-10-24 15:18:28 <BlueMatt> heh, fun
1730 2013-10-24 15:18:31 <TD> so I picked a totally random username and now lots of people started following me. i guess they use my email address
1731 2013-10-24 15:18:35 <BlueMatt> I love the sites that you can only login to with facebook
1732 2013-10-24 15:18:38 dparrish_ has joined
1733 2013-10-24 15:18:41 <TD> they don't seem to realize it's a dead account for a reason
1734 2013-10-24 15:18:53 <TD> well at least a lot of people already have facebook accounts. twitter is much smaller ....
1735 2013-10-24 15:19:00 <BlueMatt> yea, true
1736 2013-10-24 15:19:54 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1737 2013-10-24 15:19:57 darkee has joined
1738 2013-10-24 15:20:22 <BlueMatt> when does gavinandresen show up 'round these parts these days?
1739 2013-10-24 15:20:28 <BlueMatt> from australia or so, no?
1740 2013-10-24 15:20:29 <super3> TD: i'm curious. what would you do if they listed a BitMessage address?
1741 2013-10-24 15:22:00 <super3> BlueMatt: http://bitcoinstats.com/ says he was here early this morning
1742 2013-10-24 15:22:22 <BlueMatt> well some of us arent awake/aware that early...
1743 2013-10-24 15:23:20 <TD> super3: the same thing i'm doing now - not sending them a message
1744 2013-10-24 15:23:27 <jgarzik> heh
1745 2013-10-24 15:23:30 <TD> BlueMatt: in the morning CET sometimes
1746 2013-10-24 15:23:39 dparrish_ has joined
1747 2013-10-24 15:23:40 <TD> email works
1748 2013-10-24 15:23:46 <jgarzik> Reporters ask to DM me on twitter all the time.  sigh.
1749 2013-10-24 15:23:49 <TD> i think he likes not being on IRC now. more productive :)
1750 2013-10-24 15:23:52 denom has joined
1751 2013-10-24 15:23:54 <BlueMatt> jg_home: really? wtf?
1752 2013-10-24 15:23:55 <TD> jgarzik: really? that never happened to me ...
1753 2013-10-24 15:23:56 <jgarzik> "email me, dammit.  my email is so damn public"
1754 2013-10-24 15:24:06 <BlueMatt> TD: well, that sucks
1755 2013-10-24 15:24:13 <BlueMatt> productivity is boring
1756 2013-10-24 15:24:47 <super3> hardcore mode: whois lookup
1757 2013-10-24 15:24:47 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1758 2013-10-24 15:24:55 jakov has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
1759 2013-10-24 15:25:23 <Belxjander> jgarzik: maybe drinking too much of their own spiked kool-aid about what is the "current thing" for the whole cool-hunter aspect of popularity...
1760 2013-10-24 15:27:13 <super3> TD: http://who.is/whois/speedstats.org its there. whois always wins
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1767 2013-10-24 15:30:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"<BlueMatt> TD: they expect you to dm them on twitter..."
1768 2013-10-24 15:31:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That requires them to follow you first
1769 2013-10-24 15:31:53 <BlueMatt> really? well that sucks
1770 2013-10-24 15:32:05 * BlueMatt clearly knows very little about twitter
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1774 2013-10-24 15:37:08  has joined
1775 2013-10-24 15:37:08  has quit (Clown|!Clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Changing host)
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1784 2013-10-24 15:47:30 <ThomasV> how do I submit a BIP? is gmaxwell the person to contact?
1785 2013-10-24 15:48:00 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
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1787 2013-10-24 15:49:57 super3 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1788 2013-10-24 15:52:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ThomasV: Read BIP 1
1789 2013-10-24 15:52:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Also, are you by any chance subscribed to the mailing list?)
1790 2013-10-24 15:54:16 <ThomasV> not anymore :)
1791 2013-10-24 15:54:29 <sipa> why not?
1792 2013-10-24 15:54:41 <sipa> it seems like the first thing you should be following as a client author...
1793 2013-10-24 15:54:52 <ThomasV> right
1794 2013-10-24 15:55:07 <ThomasV> I should re-subscribe
1795 2013-10-24 15:55:07 Application has joined
1796 2013-10-24 15:55:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's actually an ongoing discussion about bios
1797 2013-10-24 15:55:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BIPs*
1798 2013-10-24 15:55:38 ambimorph has joined
1799 2013-10-24 15:56:42 <ThomasV> michagogo|cloud: I want to replace BIP0039. I believe I have a better solution
1800 2013-10-24 15:57:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google BIP 38
1801 2013-10-24 15:57:06 <gribble> BIP 0038 - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0038>; Decentralized Marketplace via BitMessage, Bitcoin, and BIP 0038 ...: <http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1nmshk/decentralized_marketplace_via_bitmessage_bitcoin/>; bip saxo swissphone utilisé dans le sdis 38 - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb_wG-8hDb8>
1802 2013-10-24 15:57:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|We
1803 2013-10-24 15:57:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo| Er
1804 2013-10-24 15:57:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google BIP 39
1805 2013-10-24 15:57:24 <gribble> Category:BIP - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Category:BIP>; BIP 0039 - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0039>; Lui Zumba®: BIP - Estoy Enamorao (Merengue) - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlLZ_S_7A8>
1806 2013-10-24 15:58:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's also ongoing discussion about BIP 39, coincidentally
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1808 2013-10-24 15:58:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You may want to read the archives
1809 2013-10-24 15:59:47 <ThomasV> yes
1810 2013-10-24 16:00:10 ambimorph has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1811 2013-10-24 16:01:11 <ThomasV> well, bip39 is not backward compatible with electrum, and it does nothing to allow changes/upgrades
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1828 2013-10-24 16:21:49 <cornfeedhobo> does -blocknotify= execute shell scripts? i cant find an example of its usage
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1831 2013-10-24 16:22:26 cornfeedhobo has joined
1832 2013-10-24 16:22:32 <cornfeedhobo> oops, did i miss something?
1833 2013-10-24 16:23:09 dparrish has joined
1834 2013-10-24 16:23:40 <sipa> it executes anything that can be executed, including shell scripts
1835 2013-10-24 16:24:09 <cornfeedhobo> ok thanks just wanted to verify before testing it out
1836 2013-10-24 16:24:18 <cornfeedhobo> rather making a script that is
1837 2013-10-24 16:24:19 dparrish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1838 2013-10-24 16:24:21 <cornfeedhobo> thanks
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1847 2013-10-24 16:30:21 <cornfeedhobo> are all these flags executable during runtime through jsonrpc? like walletnotify?
1848 2013-10-24 16:30:56 <sipa> flags executable?
1849 2013-10-24 16:31:01 <sipa> no idea what you mean
1850 2013-10-24 16:31:46 <cornfeedhobo> well, so you can use -blocknotify=<cmd> at the time of execution. can you call these same functions while the daemon is running through jsonrpc?
1851 2013-10-24 16:31:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No
1852 2013-10-24 16:31:56 <cornfeedhobo> ok
1853 2013-10-24 16:32:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Either command line flags or conf file
1854 2013-10-24 16:32:39 <cornfeedhobo> thanks
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1865 2013-10-24 16:45:25 <bwen> is it possible to have a bitcoind run with a watch-only wallet? (AKA: I dont want to private to be on the server at any point in time) And would -walletnotify= still fire if its readonly ?
1866 2013-10-24 16:45:40 <bwen> *the private key*
1867 2013-10-24 16:46:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bwen: offline, generate a wallet with a large key pool
1868 2013-10-24 16:46:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Make a copy, encrypt the copy, throw away the pass phrase
1869 2013-10-24 16:46:24 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1870 2013-10-24 16:46:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And there's your watch-only wallet
1871 2013-10-24 16:46:35 <wumpus> bwen: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2861
1872 2013-10-24 16:46:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Which will indeed work for walletnotify)
1873 2013-10-24 16:47:20 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: that's a good way too
1874 2013-10-24 16:49:34 digitalmagus2 has joined
1875 2013-10-24 16:50:41 <bwen> wumpus: interresting, is this in 0.9 ?
1876 2013-10-24 16:51:09 <wumpus> bwen: currently it's not merged, but hopefully it will be in 0.9
1877 2013-10-24 16:51:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bwen: it hasn't yet been me-
1878 2013-10-24 16:51:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|^^
1879 2013-10-24 16:51:24 cris has quit ()
1880 2013-10-24 16:52:58 <bwen> is there a place where I could see detailed change logs? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Changelog seems to stop at 0.6.3 ...
1881 2013-10-24 16:53:19 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: unlikely - didn't you just say the other day multiwallet would miss 0.9? :p
1882 2013-10-24 16:53:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|git :P
1883 2013-10-24 16:53:46 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: multiwallet, yes, but this doesn't require multiwallet
1884 2013-10-24 16:54:01 cris has joined
1885 2013-10-24 16:54:01 <wumpus> bwen: there should be release notes for every release
1886 2013-10-24 16:54:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, I think the source forge pages have changelings
1887 2013-10-24 16:54:06 <wumpus> yes
1888 2013-10-24 16:54:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Minus autocorrect fails)
1889 2013-10-24 16:54:17 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: watch-only wallets really require HD multiwallet
1890 2013-10-24 16:55:05 <Luke-Jr> 2861 is an ugly hack that encourages bitcoin misuse and should never be in a release
1891 2013-10-24 16:55:17 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1892 2013-10-24 16:55:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: have you commented that on the thread?
1893 2013-10-24 16:55:50 <wumpus> yes, it's a somewhat ugly way to do it, it's useful to a lot of people tho
1894 2013-10-24 16:56:21 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: yes
1895 2013-10-24 16:56:32 <bwen> wumpus++
1896 2013-10-24 16:56:57 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: only because they don't understand Bitcoin
1897 2013-10-24 16:57:19 <bwen> I understand I dont want to put ANY private key on a machine connected to the tubes
1898 2013-10-24 16:57:23 <bwen> I understand that much
1899 2013-10-24 16:57:34 <Luke-Jr> bwen: great, so use a watch-only wallet
1900 2013-10-24 16:57:44 <Luke-Jr> right now it needs a bit of trickery, but it's still doable
1901 2013-10-24 16:58:23 <bwen> what michagogo|cloud described?
1902 2013-10-24 16:58:33 <wumpus> yes
1903 2013-10-24 16:58:35 <Luke-Jr> run the real wallet with -keypool=100000, use refillkeypool, wait till it finishes; then make a copy, encrypt it with a long passphrase, throw that passphrase away
1904 2013-10-24 16:58:43 <Luke-Jr> now you have a private and watch-only wallet pair
1905 2013-10-24 16:58:57 <bwen> Luke-Jr my keys are from Armory
1906 2013-10-24 16:58:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: is refillkeypool necessary?
1907 2013-10-24 16:59:11 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: dunno, can't hurt
1908 2013-10-24 16:59:18 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: it's not, but if you have a small keypool the wallets will diverge soon
1909 2013-10-24 16:59:28 <Luke-Jr> bwen: even better?
1910 2013-10-24 16:59:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: hence keypool=largenumber
1911 2013-10-24 16:59:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: I think bwen wants to use an Armory watch-only wallet with bitcoind
1912 2013-10-24 16:59:59 <wumpus> yes, but you do need to fill it
1913 2013-10-24 17:00:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: does it not automatically do that?
1914 2013-10-24 17:00:26 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: only if it has reason to
1915 2013-10-24 17:00:32 <wumpus> so if you use a key
1916 2013-10-24 17:01:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: oh, so it doesn't refill keypool at startup, only when it creates change or gives an address?
1917 2013-10-24 17:01:12 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: hmm, so the solution for now would be to generate a fake-encrypted wallet.dat with all the pubkeys up to 100,000 or so
1918 2013-10-24 17:01:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: I know -- we both just said that
1919 2013-10-24 17:01:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, I see what you mean
1920 2013-10-24 17:01:49 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: it won't refill the keypool unless you send a transaction (which requires unlocking the wallet), or use the keypoolrefill command (which requires unlocking the wallet)
1921 2013-10-24 17:02:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: huh, not even getnewaddress?
1922 2013-10-24 17:02:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, right, there was a change a bit ago that changed that
1923 2013-10-24 17:02:28 <wumpus> michagogo|cloud: I'm not sure
1924 2013-10-24 17:02:36 <wumpus> but not on startup, at least
1925 2013-10-24 17:02:39 <bwen> pull/2861 : pwallet->LoadWatchOnly(Address),  Thank you...
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1927 2013-10-24 17:03:35 <wumpus> I actually like pull #2841 which adds an option to disable any automatic keypool refilling
1928 2013-10-24 17:05:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google bitcoin pull 2841
1929 2013-10-24 17:05:18 <gribble> bitcoin - GitHub: <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2841>; bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub: <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin>; bitcoin/src/main.cpp at master 路 bitcoin/bitcoin 路 GitHub: <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp>
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1939 2013-10-24 17:13:26 TD is now known as TD[away]
1940 2013-10-24 17:14:33 <jgarzik> heh, various websites sure do not like http://blockexplorer.com/tx/ebc9fa1196a59e192352d76c0f6e73167046b9d37b8302b6bb6968dfd279b767
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1942 2013-10-24 17:14:54 <jgarzik> a few client burps, here and there
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1944 2013-10-24 17:16:25 <lianj> jgarzik: hehe
1945 2013-10-24 17:16:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|jgarzik: lol
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1947 2013-10-24 17:16:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How does bitcoind's RPC handle it?
1948 2013-10-24 17:17:38 <jgarzik> an excellent question, that I shall answer in a few hours after my OSX Mavericks upgrade, which destroyed my dev environment, reappears...
1949 2013-10-24 17:17:49 <lianj> dunno, but prolly just post the hex of the whole script
1950 2013-10-24 17:18:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Doesn't it show it in both hex and asm?
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1953 2013-10-24 17:18:35 <lianj> try it
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1956 2013-10-24 17:19:20 <sturles> jgarzik: What is it?  decoderawtransaction says "asm" : "[error]", ...
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1958 2013-10-24 17:20:07 <lianj> "asm" : "[error]"
1959 2013-10-24 17:20:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lianj: I can't ATM -- my computer's off being repaired
1960 2013-10-24 17:20:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, okay
1961 2013-10-24 17:20:26 <lianj> thats where blockexplorer gets his error from
1962 2013-10-24 17:20:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Makes sense
1963 2013-10-24 17:20:49 <lianj> sturles: broken op_pushdata opcodes
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1965 2013-10-24 17:21:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, the script says "push the following byte onto the stack" but then ends before providing said byte
1966 2013-10-24 17:21:45 <lianj> its not the first time hand craften pushdata showed up on mainnet, but i think last time they were valid though
1967 2013-10-24 17:22:44 <lianj> like, "\x4d\x01\x00\x02" is totally valid
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1970 2013-10-24 17:23:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lianj: which opcodes are those again?
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1972 2013-10-24 17:23:38 <lianj> op_pushdata2 where the length would fit in op_pushdata1 or pushdata0 even
1973 2013-10-24 17:23:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ahh
1974 2013-10-24 17:23:53 <lianj> 4d is 77 decimal which is op_pushdata2
1975 2013-10-24 17:24:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, 01 00?
1976 2013-10-24 17:24:21 <lianj> short 1
1977 2013-10-24 17:24:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Little endian?
1978 2013-10-24 17:24:34 <jgarzik> IMNSHO, scripts that cannot be "unchunked" should be made non-standard
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1980 2013-10-24 17:24:56 <jgarzik> (parsed into opcodes and data blobs)
1981 2013-10-24 17:25:00 <lianj> jgarzik: could be a performance hit, but yea
1982 2013-10-24 17:25:18 <lianj> but the tx is non-standard anyway
1983 2013-10-24 17:25:33 <jgarzik> lianj, performance hit?
1984 2013-10-24 17:25:43 <jgarzik> it's an easy, in-cache mempool check
1985 2013-10-24 17:25:51 <lianj> ok
1986 2013-10-24 17:26:04 <jgarzik> but indeed, these scripts are inevitably non-standard anyway
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1989 2013-10-24 17:28:21 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: they should be invalid imho, but its no where near worth changing that rule
1990 2013-10-24 17:28:40 <jgarzik> indeed
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1996 2013-10-24 17:31:30 * BlueMatt ponders rewriting bitcoinj docs to make it more clear when things like script parsing are allowed to fail
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2017 2013-10-24 17:48:57 <gulli_> when talking about "something being built into bitcoin", does it mean it is a part of the protocol?
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2019 2013-10-24 17:49:23 <gulli_> which every node then needs to follow to be part of the p2p network
2020 2013-10-24 17:49:35 <Luke-Jr> gulli_: context?
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2022 2013-10-24 17:49:48 <skinnkavaj> gulli_: when you can order pizza in gta and get it delivered home with irl and pay with bitcoin in the game
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2025 2013-10-24 17:51:10 <skinnkavaj> Looking for help to create a better version of blockchain.info please pm
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2027 2013-10-24 17:52:27 <gulli_> for instance that every 2016 blocks that are estimated, the network estimates the time it took to generate these blocks
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2029 2013-10-24 17:52:52 <sipa> gulli_: correct, that is part of the consensus rules
2030 2013-10-24 17:53:01 <sipa> so it is done by all full nodes on the network
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2034 2013-10-24 17:56:23 <gulli_> So what happens if someone tries to break the rules, i.e. broadcastng a faulty transaction? I guess nothing, since if its just one node, all the other nodes playing by the rules will broadcast the correct transaction
2035 2013-10-24 17:57:08 <sipa> if you broadcast a faulty transaction, other nodes will ignore it
2036 2013-10-24 17:57:19 <sipa> and depending on what the problem is with it, disconnect you
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2038 2013-10-24 17:57:43 <gulli_> what would happen for instance, if a node that solves a block, writes a 50 btc reward for itself, at this point in time?
2039 2013-10-24 17:57:53 <sipa> same thing
2040 2013-10-24 17:57:56 <sipa> other nodes ignore the block
2041 2013-10-24 17:58:04 <gulli_> ahh ok
2042 2013-10-24 17:58:17 <gulli_> where can I read about this indepth, the bitcoin.it wiki?
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2044 2013-10-24 17:58:46 <kjj> the wiki has a lot of info, yes
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2047 2013-10-24 17:59:46 <kjj> I can't think of which specific page there answers these specific questions, but it is widely understood that every node verifies everything and ignores invalid data
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2054 2013-10-24 18:03:34 <gulli_> ok thanks
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2058 2013-10-24 18:08:16 <davec> hi folks - wondering if you guys can confirm my assessment is accurate regading dust and if the end result is intentional.
2059 2013-10-24 18:08:19 <davec> So, the mempool will accept non-standard transactions on testnet per https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L791-L793
2060 2013-10-24 18:08:22 <davec> Amongst the other things, the IsStandardTx contains the checks for dust however, in wallet.cpp (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp#L1202-L1207), it rejects creation of transactions regardless of the network
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2062 2013-10-24 18:08:26 <davec> so, this means bitcoind's mempool will accept and relay dust tx on testnet, but the wallet refuses to create them
2063 2013-10-24 18:08:29 <davec> is that intentional?
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2065 2013-10-24 18:10:28 <sipa> i'm not sure anyone consciously made that decision, but it's not unreasonable: it allows people to test with non-standard transactions on testnet
2066 2013-10-24 18:11:08 <sipa> while adding support for non-standard transactions to a wallet requires very significant effort
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2069 2013-10-24 18:13:07 <grau> sipa: Bitcoin is off your charts again :)
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2073 2013-10-24 18:17:07 <davec> sipa: thanks for the clarification - I was just curious because I originally figured CTXMemPool::accept would be the authority on what is and isn't allowed rather than duplicating checks in multiple places that can get out of sync.  Thought I'd make sure that is not the case
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2075 2013-10-24 18:18:03 <jgarzik> the wallet is conceptually separate from the blockchain engine
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2077 2013-10-24 18:18:26 <jgarzik> so the wallet will inevitably not understand transactions that the lower level engine does understand
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2084 2013-10-24 18:24:35 <sipa> davec: the wallet will not create bare multisig transactions for example
2085 2013-10-24 18:24:39 <sipa> davec: which are perfectly standard
2086 2013-10-24 18:25:03 <sipa> what transactions you can create is a use case issue, and not all software deals with the same sort of transactions
2087 2013-10-24 18:25:33 <davec> understood - the wallet is further limiting things over and above what is considered standard (in addition of course to what is "valid" which is even less restrictive than standard)
2088 2013-10-24 18:25:45 <sipa> i wouldn't consider it limiting
2089 2013-10-24 18:25:59 <sipa> it only implements a relevant subset
2090 2013-10-24 18:26:20 <sipa> limiting sounds like it actively rejects certain transactions; that's not the case
2091 2013-10-24 18:26:39 <sipa> grau: will bump it
2092 2013-10-24 18:26:47 <davec> fair enough - that is a better way to say it
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2094 2013-10-24 18:27:06 <davec> appreciate the info guys
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2120 2013-10-24 18:41:16 <TheLordOfTime> was dumpprivkey deprecated recently?
2121 2013-10-24 18:41:22 <TheLordOfTime> or does it still exist in the latest bitcoind
2122 2013-10-24 18:41:58 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, it's there, working as always
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2124 2013-10-24 18:42:18 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, when was it introduced into bitcoind?
2125 2013-10-24 18:42:20 <TheLordOfTime> what version approximately
2126 2013-10-24 18:42:30 <TheLordOfTime> (see #bitcoin if you're curious of the context for me asking)
2127 2013-10-24 18:42:32 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, dunno
2128 2013-10-24 18:42:49 <jgarzik> IIRC it is pretty new
2129 2013-10-24 18:43:01 <TheLordOfTime> jgarzik, pre 0.8.3 might not have it, then?
2130 2013-10-24 18:43:05 <TheLordOfTime> or rather, pre 0.8.*
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2134 2013-10-24 18:45:02 <jgarzik> TheLordOfTime, it has existed since at least 0.7.x, if not earlier
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2136 2013-10-24 18:45:18 <TheLordOfTime> hmm
2137 2013-10-24 18:45:27 <TheLordOfTime> wonder why it wasn't working for that guy then
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2139 2013-10-24 18:47:29 <gulli_> Was wondering about double spending. Seems to me, that a user can defraud a person with a good probabilty (around 50% if I am right), if he broadcasts a transaction to person A, but instantly after that broadcasts a transaction for the same bitcoins to person B. Isnt it "almost" an equal chance person A or person B get it?
2140 2013-10-24 18:48:11 TD has joined
2141 2013-10-24 18:48:50 <jgarzik> gulli_, it won't work, broadcasting same spent coins to same parties.  otherwise, it's race.
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2145 2013-10-24 18:52:17 <gulli_> ok, im just trying to remember what I learned in distributed systems class last year. But messages in the system dont always travel the same way through the system, do they? If the two messages are sent out extremly close to each other, and travel a different way through the network, coulnt two large camps of nodes start disagreeing?
2146 2013-10-24 18:52:48 <gulli_> in theory at least
2147 2013-10-24 18:53:04 <jgarzik> gulli_, it takes too long to bootstrap your general knowledge into specific rules executed by bitcoin's software ;p
2148 2013-10-24 18:53:11 <swulf--> isn't that a corroboration problem?
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2151 2013-10-24 18:54:15 <kjj> the blocks solve that problem by syncing the whole network up on a regular-ish basis
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2158 2013-10-24 18:55:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gulli_: that's what confirmations are for
2159 2013-10-24 18:56:13 <dobry-den> gulli_: one of the whole points of the blockchain is that transactions are synchronously conjoined to a blockchain
2160 2013-10-24 18:56:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/conformations are/the blockchain is/
2161 2013-10-24 18:57:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So yes, if you broadcast two transactions spending the same coins to different nodes simultaneously, you'll get some nodes seeing one first and some nodes seeing the other first
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2163 2013-10-24 18:57:45 <dobry-den> whichever transaction reaches the miner first that ends up mining the next block will be the officialized one
2164 2013-10-24 18:58:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Which transaction is considered canonical depends on which of the transactions is first seen by whoever finds the next block
2165 2013-10-24 18:58:22 <dobry-den> together michagogo|cloud and i form voltron
2166 2013-10-24 18:58:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Who or what is that?
2167 2013-10-24 18:58:58 <gulli_> ok thanks
2168 2013-10-24 18:59:21 <dobry-den> ouch, voltron wasn't part of your life
2169 2013-10-24 18:59:28 <dobry-den> that sucks
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2182 2013-10-24 19:12:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|dobry-den: never heard of it
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2192 2013-10-24 19:18:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, has anyone ever benchmarked bitcoind, syncing, importing, reindexing, etc with a ramdisk?
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2195 2013-10-24 19:20:16 <kjj> I don't benchmark it, but I've done it plenty of times.  it is a bit faster than usual, but the real gains come when you are bootstrapping someone else
2196 2013-10-24 19:20:54 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: during 0.7 times, that used to be the advise for speeding it up
2197 2013-10-24 19:21:24 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: pretty sure that right now, setting a high -dbcache is better (though i haven't benchmarked)
2198 2013-10-24 19:21:37 <kjj> when acting as a server for another node doing the initial blockchain download, it avoids all of the seeks that make your poor disks cry
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2200 2013-10-24 19:21:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"during 0.7 times" meaning when the blockchain could fit in an average node's RAM? :-P
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2209 2013-10-24 19:27:43 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: that too
2210 2013-10-24 19:28:23 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
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2214 2013-10-24 19:31:51 <kjj> sipa: do you know if the payment protocol is going to have OCSP enabled by default, or if there will be a configuration option for it?
2215 2013-10-24 19:33:01 Coincidental has joined
2216 2013-10-24 19:33:32 <sipa> kjj: no clue
2217 2013-10-24 19:33:34 dparrish_ has joined
2218 2013-10-24 19:34:00 <kjj> ok.
2219 2013-10-24 19:34:30 <kjj> I just slaughtered a troll in the payment protocol thread
2220 2013-10-24 19:34:50 <Luke-Jr> there's a payment protocol thread?
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2224 2013-10-24 19:36:22 <sturles> Can someone here help me with a link to Satotshi's famous email to cypherpunks where he announced Bitcoin?  I can't find any trace of it when searching.
2225 2013-10-24 19:37:52 <kjj> this one?  http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09959.html
2226 2013-10-24 19:38:16 <sturles> kjj: Yes, thank you!
2227 2013-10-24 19:38:31 chris_l has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2228 2013-10-24 19:38:36 <kjj> your google-fu is weak.  took me like a minute to find
2229 2013-10-24 19:38:37 <kjj> :)
2230 2013-10-24 19:38:52 dparrish_ has joined
2231 2013-10-24 19:39:40 <sipa> that is not the cypherphunks mailinglist though, afaict
2232 2013-10-24 19:39:47 <sipa> (though i expect the mail to be the same)
2233 2013-10-24 19:39:56 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2234 2013-10-24 19:40:25 <kjj> If I recall correctly, "the cypherpunks" mailing list was defunct for a bunch of years before his posting
2235 2013-10-24 19:40:32 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I wake up around now (it is 5:40 am here, now)
2236 2013-10-24 19:40:40 <kjj> so, he posted to "a cypherpunks" mailing list
2237 2013-10-24 19:40:51 <sipa> gavinandresen: sick!
2238 2013-10-24 19:41:48 <kjj> in that case, Gavin, are you planning to include OCSP in the payment protocol?
2239 2013-10-24 19:43:43 <gavinandresen> kjj: there is a comment in the code about OCSP… no plans to implement that. Certificate stapling would make more sense (but no plans to implement that, either-- but "patches welcome" if you feel compelled to do it).
2240 2013-10-24 19:43:59 dparrish_ has joined
2241 2013-10-24 19:44:32 <Ry4an> is certificate stapling the same as certificate pinning?
2242 2013-10-24 19:44:35 transactionsign1 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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2246 2013-10-24 19:48:36 <kjj> no
2247 2013-10-24 19:49:15 dparrish has joined
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2250 2013-10-24 19:50:15 <kjj> OCSP stapling is a variant of OCSP that improves privacy.  In OCSP stapling, the server provides the client with (cryptographic) proof of recent validity rather than making the client do the request itself
2251 2013-10-24 19:50:16 <Ry4an> ...reading...
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2260 2013-10-24 19:57:04 <jgarzik> lovely
2261 2013-10-24 19:57:25 <jgarzik> annoying bdb m4 code finds 4.8, even without devel capability, on Fedora
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2265 2013-10-24 19:58:58  has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Killed (adams.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
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2267 2013-10-24 19:59:01 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: intentional - it won't use anything else without being explicitly told to
2268 2013-10-24 19:59:28 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, it is clearly incorrect
2269 2013-10-24 19:59:36 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: why?
2270 2013-10-24 19:59:37 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, highlighting WITHOUT DEVEL CAPABILITY
2271 2013-10-24 19:59:42 dparrish has joined
2272 2013-10-24 19:59:47 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: without devel capability, it should outright fail at configure time
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2275 2013-10-24 20:00:04 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, it happily links with 4.8, even if only 5.x devel headers and libs are present
2276 2013-10-24 20:00:09 <Luke-Jr> O.o
2277 2013-10-24 20:00:12 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, it's broken by design
2278 2013-10-24 20:00:15 <Luke-Jr> ok, yeah, that sounds broken
2279 2013-10-24 20:00:21 abueesp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2280 2013-10-24 20:00:33 <Luke-Jr> does bdb make it possible to determine the version of headers?
2281 2013-10-24 20:01:03 dparrish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2282 2013-10-24 20:01:13 <sipa> yes, DB_VERSION_MAJOR and DB_VERSION_MINOR
2283 2013-10-24 20:01:18 <sipa> macros
2284 2013-10-24 20:01:31 * Luke-Jr wonders if that was part of his autoconf fixes he didn't get PR'd yet
2285 2013-10-24 20:01:55 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is there any problem with using 5.1 other than being incompatible?
2286 2013-10-24 20:02:21 <sipa> no
2287 2013-10-24 20:02:35 <sipa> i've used 5.1 for years already
2288 2013-10-24 20:03:10 [\\\] has joined
2289 2013-10-24 20:03:20 <jgarzik> ditto
2290 2013-10-24 20:04:23 <Luke-Jr> hence the configure option to allow it
2291 2013-10-24 20:04:47 dparrish has joined
2292 2013-10-24 20:04:53 <jgarzik> this is not about configure options
2293 2013-10-24 20:05:25 mbelshe has joined
2294 2013-10-24 20:05:30 <jgarzik> "--with-incompatible-bdb" still picks up db4.x here, even sans headers, helpfully building a binary that does not work.
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2296 2013-10-24 20:07:33 jegs has joined
2297 2013-10-24 20:07:37 <jegs> after a fork do transactions need to be reconfirmed?
2298 2013-10-24 20:08:02 <jegs> not a fork, a split rather
2299 2013-10-24 20:08:13 <sipa> it's called a reorganization
2300 2013-10-24 20:08:14 abueesp has joined
2301 2013-10-24 20:08:22 <sipa> and it causes transactions to move to the new best chain usually
2302 2013-10-24 20:08:29 <sipa> unless there is a conflict of course
2303 2013-10-24 20:08:35 <sipa> (caused by a succesful double spend)
2304 2013-10-24 20:09:04 <jegs> ok, after a reorganization, does the confirmation count get reset?
2305 2013-10-24 20:09:34 <jegs> or they just get moved and that's it
2306 2013-10-24 20:09:41 <jegs> prior confirmations are still valid
2307 2013-10-24 20:09:43 <sipa> confirmations = how deep your transaction is in the currently best chain
2308 2013-10-24 20:09:55 MagicFab_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2309 2013-10-24 20:09:58 <sipa> you seem to misunderstand what confirmations are for
2310 2013-10-24 20:10:02 <jegs> apparently
2311 2013-10-24 20:10:04 dparrish has joined
2312 2013-10-24 20:10:05 <jegs> i misunderstand a lot
2313 2013-10-24 20:10:26 <sipa> they indicate how hard it is to invalidate a transaction
2314 2013-10-24 20:10:27 <jegs> i thought confirmations were the number of other nodes that said 'yes that is tx is valid'
2315 2013-10-24 20:10:32 <sipa> oh no, not at all
2316 2013-10-24 20:10:55 <sipa> if your transaction is not in the best chain, confirmations = 0
2317 2013-10-24 20:11:04 <sipa> if it is in the tip block of the chain, confirmations = 1
2318 2013-10-24 20:11:06 dparrish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2319 2013-10-24 20:11:08 <sipa> any block deeper, +1
2320 2013-10-24 20:11:18 <jegs> and the best chain is the longest right?
2321 2013-10-24 20:11:20 <sipa> yes
2322 2013-10-24 20:11:37 <sipa> of course, if it gets kicked out of the chain or moves to a different depth in a reorganization, then indeed, the confirmation count will change
2323 2013-10-24 20:12:14 <jegs> and typically, most nodes are working on "the best chain" right? there's not like a single node that stakes claim to having 'the best chain' then all other nodes must reflect that one node while it has the best chain?
2324 2013-10-24 20:13:09 <sipa> nodes do not always agree what the best chain is- that's impossible
2325 2013-10-24 20:13:24 <sipa> that would require global consensus in the first place, the problem that bitcoin is trying to solve
2326 2013-10-24 20:13:28 <sipa> but in general, they agree
2327 2013-10-24 20:13:30 shesek has joined
2328 2013-10-24 20:13:31 <jegs> ok that's where i'm getting confused
2329 2013-10-24 20:13:48 <sipa> if two successor blocks to block A are produced, B and B', at the same time
2330 2013-10-24 20:13:53 <sipa> some nodes will see B first
2331 2013-10-24 20:13:56 <sipa> others will see B' first
2332 2013-10-24 20:14:01 <dobry-den> jegs: nodes work off the chain they think is correct until another node makes them away of a chain with higher difficulty
2333 2013-10-24 20:14:07 <dobry-den> aware
2334 2013-10-24 20:14:08 abueesp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2335 2013-10-24 20:14:15 <sipa> there is no better rule to judge them than "the first one i saw will likely make it"
2336 2013-10-24 20:14:40 <jegs> i see, and how do nodes get notified of the better chain?
2337 2013-10-24 20:14:48 <sipa> but as soon as either B or B' is extended with a block C, that becomes the longest one, and everyone switches to it
2338 2013-10-24 20:14:50 <Luke-Jr> sipa: arguably, "the one that rewards the miner the most will likely make it"
2339 2013-10-24 20:14:52 <sipa> they tell eachother
2340 2013-10-24 20:15:09 <dobry-den> jegs: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#getblocks
2341 2013-10-24 20:15:12 dparrish has joined
2342 2013-10-24 20:15:19 <sipa> actually, getblocks is not involved in that process
2343 2013-10-24 20:15:23 <sipa> it's inv + getdata
2344 2013-10-24 20:15:53 <dobry-den> sipa: really? i would have thought this " If the peer detects that you are off the main chain, it will send in block hashes which are earlier than your last known block. So if you just send in your last known hash and it is off the main chain, the peer starts over at block #1."
2345 2013-10-24 20:15:54 <sipa> dobry-den: higher *summed* difficulty
2346 2013-10-24 20:15:58 <jegs> i feel like i need to keep track of chain reorganizations in my db... is that necessary? should i ever have to audit like that?
2347 2013-10-24 20:15:58 <dobry-den> right
2348 2013-10-24 20:16:08 <sipa> jegs: you absolutely should
2349 2013-10-24 20:16:20 <sipa> jegs: reorganizations happen all the time, though usually very small ones
2350 2013-10-24 20:16:20 dparrish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2351 2013-10-24 20:16:33 <sipa> dobry-den: getblocks is only for initial synchronization
2352 2013-10-24 20:16:37 <sipa> dobry-den: not for relaying not blocks
2353 2013-10-24 20:16:37 <dobry-den> ah thanks
2354 2013-10-24 20:16:42 <jegs> so all nodes also track reorganizations? i thought the losing chains get orphaned
2355 2013-10-24 20:16:54 <sipa> jegs: yep, nodes track reorganizations
2356 2013-10-24 20:17:04 elevatioN has joined
2357 2013-10-24 20:17:05 <Luke-Jr> hmm, GCC 4.8 is throwing warnings about <command-line>:0:0: warning: "_FORTIFY_SOURCE" redefined [enabled by default]
2358 2013-10-24 20:17:05 <sipa> jegs: and they keep the losing chains, because those could still be extended
2359 2013-10-24 20:17:22 <sipa> jegs: they just stop considering them "active"
2360 2013-10-24 20:17:33 <jegs> interesting, but i suppose there's no way to query with the curreny API? like "listallchainsfortransaction <txid>"
2361 2013-10-24 20:17:42 <jegs> *current
2362 2013-10-24 20:17:48 <jgarzik> jegs, no
2363 2013-10-24 20:17:57 <sipa> you shouldn't be concerned with anything but the current best chain
2364 2013-10-24 20:18:01 <jgarzik> jegs, a transaction is indexed to a single chain, the best
2365 2013-10-24 20:18:20 <dobry-den> i would think you would always just shift your db state to most-correct chain as you become aware of them
2366 2013-10-24 20:18:22 <jegs> jgarzik: sipa just recommended that I should keep track of chain reorgs in my db
2367 2013-10-24 20:18:33 <sipa> jegs: oh, i mean you should *deal* with them
2368 2013-10-24 20:18:43 <sipa> sorry, you don't have to keep track of them
2369 2013-10-24 20:18:46 <jgarzik> sometimes life would be easier if we didn't have to un-apply then re-apply, and snapshots and other fun could enable that.
2370 2013-10-24 20:18:47 <jegs> i see but i don't have to store an audit trail
2371 2013-10-24 20:19:00 <jgarzik> but that's quite complex
2372 2013-10-24 20:19:05 <sipa> jegs: you could store the time when a transaction moves into the chain and moves out of it
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2374 2013-10-24 20:19:16 <sipa> jegs: i think professional wallet software should do that, for auditing
2375 2013-10-24 20:19:20 <dobry-den> sipa: why are orphan chains kept track of in a client if they are immediately replaced/invalidated by the more correct chain?
2376 2013-10-24 20:19:24 <jegs> yeah, it would be awesome if bitcoind hid some of this complexity from the client (i mean optionally, using a higherlevel api)
2377 2013-10-24 20:19:36 <sipa> jegs: it does
2378 2013-10-24 20:19:51 <sipa> to an extent
2379 2013-10-24 20:20:00 <sipa> but yes, there are higher-level abstractions possible
2380 2013-10-24 20:20:02 <jegs> hah well yes of course it does to a certain extent but i mean even more
2381 2013-10-24 20:20:16 <sipa> dobry-den: define "replaced" ?
2382 2013-10-24 20:20:22 <sipa> dobry-den: the blocks don't disappear
2383 2013-10-24 20:20:24 <jegs> like having to go back and update transactions with new blockhashes makes me feel less confident
2384 2013-10-24 20:20:26 <sipa> they just stop being active
2385 2013-10-24 20:20:30 dparrish_ has joined
2386 2013-10-24 20:20:46 <sipa> from the point of view of a wallet, they disappear
2387 2013-10-24 20:20:55 <sipa> but not from the point of view of the validation engine
2388 2013-10-24 20:21:20 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2389 2013-10-24 20:21:21 <sipa> that just deals with a "block tree" internally, continuously trying to find the best path though that tree
2390 2013-10-24 20:21:22 <jgarzik> dobry-den, did you mean "weak blocks" (not best chain) rather than orphan blocks?  We keep some amount of orphan TXs and blocks, in case they become connected later.
2391 2013-10-24 20:21:31 <jgarzik> That is different from a connected block on a weak chain.
2392 2013-10-24 20:21:32 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2393 2013-10-24 20:21:40 <jegs> oh you know what would be nice i think, is having two APIs. One for wallets and one for blockchain. I think that would also go a long way to make things clearer to people dealing with bitcoind API.
2394 2013-10-24 20:21:41 <dobry-den> jgarzik: yes, i meant a weak chain
2395 2013-10-24 20:21:41 <sipa> dobry-den: indeed, "orphan block" is an overloaded term, it means two things
2396 2013-10-24 20:21:46 <dobry-den> ah
2397 2013-10-24 20:21:47 <sipa> jegs: we do
2398 2013-10-24 20:22:01 <sipa> jegs: getblockhash/getblock/getrawtransaction query the blockchain
2399 2013-10-24 20:22:29 <sipa> (though the terminology isn't always chosen very clearly)
2400 2013-10-24 20:22:49 <jegs> sipa: actually what i've been wanting from the start is a simple 'gettransactionsforaddress' that will list all transactions for a single address. in that case i wouldn't have to deal with a lot of shit i'm dealing with now.
2401 2013-10-24 20:23:26 <jegs> but i suppose that would require some new index or something?
2402 2013-10-24 20:23:31 <sipa> jegs: indeed, a huge one
2403 2013-10-24 20:23:38 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2404 2013-10-24 20:23:41 neep3r has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2405 2013-10-24 20:23:42 <sipa> also, you shouldn't need it for production purposes
2406 2013-10-24 20:23:47 <sipa> (but it would be handy for debugging)
2407 2013-10-24 20:23:53 <jgarzik> unless you're the NSA.
2408 2013-10-24 20:24:01 <jgarzik> or a brainwallet-stealing bot.
2409 2013-10-24 20:24:09 <jegs> lol
2410 2013-10-24 20:24:14 <jegs> brainwallet?
2411 2013-10-24 20:24:25 <sipa> a wallet where all keys are derived from a passphrase
2412 2013-10-24 20:24:36 <sipa> so you can reconstruct it using just your brain
2413 2013-10-24 20:24:46 <sipa> (a compelling, but terrible idea imho)
2414 2013-10-24 20:25:21 <dobry-den> what the max # of transactions that return from listtransactionsforaddress
2415 2013-10-24 20:25:23 <jegs> i bet DPR wished he had a brainwallet right about now
2416 2013-10-24 20:25:39 dparrish_ has joined
2417 2013-10-24 20:25:46 <jegs> dobry-den: there is no such API call i was just wishing it
2418 2013-10-24 20:26:30 <sipa> jegs: DPR having a brainwallet would be a bad idea (for him), because of http://xkcd.com/538/
2419 2013-10-24 20:26:40 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2420 2013-10-24 20:28:09 <sipa> jegs: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2861#issuecomment-26758690
2421 2013-10-24 20:28:19 <dobry-den> why would you need a new index to get all txns for an address? you wouldn't want it in a synchronous request, but youd just crawl the blockchain
2422 2013-10-24 20:28:27 <phantomcircuit> sipa, only if they know he has one that is
2423 2013-10-24 20:28:51 <phantomcircuit> sipa, although i guess the very possibility of it's existence would be equally bad on the getting smacked with a wrench front
2424 2013-10-24 20:28:53 <sipa> dobry-den: any idea how long it takes to even just read the entire blockchain from disk?
2425 2013-10-24 20:29:16 <sipa> dobry-den: and worse, that requires that you actually have the entire blockchain on disk
2426 2013-10-24 20:29:28 <sipa> though not implemented right now, you can actually delete old pieces
2427 2013-10-24 20:29:54 <jegs> sipa: lol, oh shit that's funny sad and true
2428 2013-10-24 20:30:56 dparrish_ has joined
2429 2013-10-24 20:31:48 <sipa> jegs: note that that is on a pgae about a pull request to add support for watch-only addresses, which solve many of those problems in a much more scalable way
2430 2013-10-24 20:32:12 <jegs> sipa: oh yeah reading the github comment now
2431 2013-10-24 20:32:24 <dobry-den> sipa: it would need to be done asynchronously to your app's needs, but it's not a show-stopper
2432 2013-10-24 20:32:25 dparrish_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2433 2013-10-24 20:32:27 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2437 2013-10-24 20:33:23 <jegs> sipa: "Contrary to how many people see the system, internally it doesn't work with addresses at all - those are just part of an authentication layer on top of transactions (implemented through scripts)."
2438 2013-10-24 20:34:07 <jegs> sipa: ^ the thing is though, anyone doing ecommerce (customer or vendor), you start with addresses, and then see what transactions occured on them
2439 2013-10-24 20:34:14 <sipa> sure
2440 2013-10-24 20:34:21 <sipa> and that is absolutely correct
2441 2013-10-24 20:34:36 <sipa> (well, except humans shouldn't need to see addresses IMHO)
2442 2013-10-24 20:34:46 mrler has joined
2443 2013-10-24 20:35:16 deepc0re has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2444 2013-10-24 20:35:25 <jegs> well, i'm using qr codes and bitcoin uri's on top of displaying the address as text for my customers
2445 2013-10-24 20:35:29 <sipa> just saying that internally, things don't work with addresses, and having an index on top of them isn't necessary for normal operation of a full node or a wallet
2446 2013-10-24 20:35:41 <jegs> however i still as the vendor have to tie everything to that address
2447 2013-10-24 20:35:50 <jegs> sure
2448 2013-10-24 20:36:07 <jegs> but not having that index puts up some barrier to adoption is all im saying
2449 2013-10-24 20:36:16 <sipa> i think having it does!
2450 2013-10-24 20:36:20 deepc0re has joined
2451 2013-10-24 20:36:37 <sipa> it helps people build solutions and an ecosystem that will not scale
2452 2013-10-24 20:36:50 <jegs> well, in combination with the watchonly wallet, would you really need a massive index? couldn't you just index for addresses in the wallet?
2453 2013-10-24 20:37:02 McKay has joined
2454 2013-10-24 20:37:08 <jegs> which is essentailly what i'm doing with my db
2455 2013-10-24 20:37:19 <sipa> well a watch-only wallet doesn't need any index
2456 2013-10-24 20:37:34 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2457 2013-10-24 20:37:35 <sipa> it just listens for transactions that affect the coins it is told to
2458 2013-10-24 20:37:51 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2459 2013-10-24 20:38:16 <jegs> right but there's still no easy way to list *only* those transactions specific to the watched address
2460 2013-10-24 20:38:25 <sipa> sure there is
2461 2013-10-24 20:38:32 <sipa> a watch-only wallet lets you do that exactly
2462 2013-10-24 20:38:41 <jegs> is there a new api call?
2463 2013-10-24 20:38:47 <sipa> no, just listtransactions & co
2464 2013-10-24 20:39:08 shesek has joined
2465 2013-10-24 20:39:11 <sipa> and listreceivedbyaddress
2466 2013-10-24 20:39:13 <jegs> they take new arguments?
2467 2013-10-24 20:39:16 <sipa> and listsinceblock
2468 2013-10-24 20:39:17 <sipa> no
2469 2013-10-24 20:39:26 <Luke-Jr> master doesn't build -.-
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2473 2013-10-24 20:39:35 <sipa> jegs: you first have to import the addresses to watch usign importaddress
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2475 2013-10-24 20:39:43 <Luke-Jr> src/qt/guiutil.cpp:530: undefined reference to `HelpMessage()'
2476 2013-10-24 20:39:47 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ugh
2477 2013-10-24 20:39:52 <sipa> Luke-Jr: fix ti!
2478 2013-10-24 20:39:58 <jegs> lol
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2480 2013-10-24 20:40:17 <Luke-Jr> fine
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2483 2013-10-24 20:41:27 <jegs> sipa: i'm still not understanding how you can "list *only* those transactions for a given address" using the current API even with the watchonly wallet... those API calls you mention currently have no way of specifying the specific address
2484 2013-10-24 20:41:49 <sipa> oh
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2486 2013-10-24 20:41:54 <sipa> you just want some extra filtering?
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2489 2013-10-24 20:42:33 <sipa> yeah, the api can use some improvements
2490 2013-10-24 20:42:46 <sipa> but functionally watch-only wallets give you all you need
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2492 2013-10-24 20:43:11 <Luke-Jr> getreceivedbyaddress
2493 2013-10-24 20:43:13 <Luke-Jr> <.<
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2495 2013-10-24 20:43:26 <sipa> that groups them, but doesn't let you filter afaik
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2497 2013-10-24 20:43:43 <Luke-Jr> there's no need to filter
2498 2013-10-24 20:43:56 <Luke-Jr> addresses shoudl only be used once, and that handles the edge case of an idiot payer
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2501 2013-10-24 20:45:19 <jegs> that only gives you the amount received by the address, right/
2502 2013-10-24 20:45:27 <sipa> yes
2503 2013-10-24 20:45:30 <sipa> totat per address
2504 2013-10-24 20:45:50 <sipa> (which is usually what you care about as a merchant: for the invoice for which I gave out address A, is it paid in full?)
2505 2013-10-24 20:45:54 <Luke-Jr> jegs: yes, that's all that matters
2506 2013-10-24 20:46:20 <sipa> depends on the use case of course
2507 2013-10-24 20:46:27 <Luke-Jr> (as long as we're talking about addresses)
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2510 2013-10-24 20:47:42 <jegs> i think i might be able to do just that... i knew about this api call before but didn't use it since i was afraid it would be inaccurate or something stupid
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2514 2013-10-24 20:50:20 <jegs> i guess because i need to make payouts too and i was like, how can i be sure that the money that came into this address wasn't already spent, and it could lead to terrible bugs and shit
2515 2013-10-24 20:51:21 <Luke-Jr> jegs: no such thing
2516 2013-10-24 20:51:34 <Luke-Jr> jegs: address receive money, they don't hold or spend it
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2518 2013-10-24 20:52:36 <jegs> Luke-Jr: I thought so but then the doc on that api call here is kind of confusing: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
2519 2013-10-24 20:52:54 <jegs> it kind of makes you think that there could be such a thing but it's not implemented or something
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2522 2013-10-24 20:54:00 <jegs> can I edit the wiki?
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2525 2013-10-24 20:55:44 <Luke-Jr> jegs: sure, tohugh I hope my edit just now clarifies it
2526 2013-10-24 20:56:18 <jegs> oh cool
2527 2013-10-24 20:57:24 <jegs> nice, multiple clarifications there, thank you
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2531 2013-10-24 21:02:57 <starsoccer> ;;seen xenland
2532 2013-10-24 21:02:57 <gribble> xenland was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 22 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <xenland> is who runs it.
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2594 2013-10-24 21:55:03 <Luke-Jr> Can someone reopen https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2986 so I can push my rebase?
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2600 2013-10-24 22:01:16 <davout> "But it is not large enough to do something silly like embed images or tweets." <--- I chuckled
2601 2013-10-24 22:01:44 <davout> unless you write your tweets in chinese you totally fit a tweet there
2602 2013-10-24 22:01:51 <davout> *can
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2606 2013-10-24 22:03:36 <Luke-Jr> actually, no relevant comments there I can just open a new one
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2655 2013-10-24 22:43:11 <Luke-Jr> sigh, pulltester still broken?
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2695 2013-10-24 23:32:51 <gmaxwell> I'm back on earth, I trust y'all found the opreturn transaction?
2696 2013-10-24 23:33:39 <gmaxwell> (of course, I found it moments after LHR shut off its idiotic 45 minutes of free wifi)
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2698 2013-10-24 23:34:56 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, hmm?
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2703 2013-10-24 23:37:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: uh. I'm confused at your "not urgent". :)
2704 2013-10-24 23:38:25 <gmaxwell> at least the conclusion I reached on the airplane is that this can create forks between git and 0.8.5. I guess I should read the logs here.
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2708 2013-10-24 23:42:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ?
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