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15 2013-10-25 00:15:24 <super3> good day
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82 2013-10-25 01:54:05 <elevatioN> hey i got a message saying 10.0.something.something connected to your device
83 2013-10-25 01:54:31 <elevatioN> is that a hacker
84 2013-10-25 01:54:32 reneg1 has quit (Client Quit)
85 2013-10-25 01:55:23 <elevatioN> can someone please help me
86 2013-10-25 01:55:24 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
87 2013-10-25 01:56:20 reneg1 has joined
88 2013-10-25 02:02:12 <MC1984> what?
89 2013-10-25 02:02:16 <MC1984> thats a private ip range any way
90 2013-10-25 02:02:29 PhantomSpark has joined
91 2013-10-25 02:04:37 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
92 2013-10-25 02:06:39 <Apocalyptic> MC1984, so ?
93 2013-10-25 02:06:47 <Apocalyptic> could be someone on his LAN
94 2013-10-25 02:07:16 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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99 2013-10-25 02:17:24 <MC1984> if you got a hacker physically inside your netowrk you dun goofed
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106 2013-10-25 02:28:25 <elevatioN> what if they hacked someone on my network
107 2013-10-25 02:28:29 paracyst has quit ()
108 2013-10-25 02:28:29 <elevatioN> like my girlfriend
109 2013-10-25 02:28:34 <elevatioN> her computer is loaded with shit
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119 2013-10-25 02:39:03 <lianj> elevatioN: wrong channel, sorry
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154 2013-10-25 03:32:29 <csjones> jgarzik around?
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168 2013-10-25 03:47:09 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: why is your linked mempool stuff not doing the mempool-limit and watch thrown-away txn for fee info stuff?
169 2013-10-25 03:47:19 grau has joined
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171 2013-10-25 03:48:09 <BlueMatt> imho its a bit cleaner, offers some good memory-limiting stuff and its less abuse-prone (not that the existing stuff is, really)
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186 2013-10-25 04:05:19 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: which "linked mempool stuff" ?
187 2013-10-25 04:05:29 <BlueMatt> s/linked/limited/
188 2013-10-25 04:05:50 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I haven't written a memory-limited mempool yet....
189 2013-10-25 04:06:03 * BlueMatt did
190 2013-10-25 04:06:08 <BlueMatt> long time ago, though
191 2013-10-25 04:06:40 <gavinandresen> The smart fee code indirectly limits the mempool, but that is really a side effect of making the relay policy more sane
192 2013-10-25 04:07:23 <gavinandresen> ⦠and the problem with watching thrown-away transactions is you don't get a very good sample, because thrown-away transactions aren't relayed and don't propagate across the network very far
193 2013-10-25 04:07:35 <gavinandresen> (well, you don't get a good sample quickly)
194 2013-10-25 04:08:10 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: in any case, it seems to me like it makes far more sense to only look at the set of the top N txn that are highest priority/fee (separately) and are not getting into blocks and just look at those for fee/prio limits
195 2013-10-25 04:08:38 <BlueMatt> (throwing away is nice because you can just look at the ones you didnt throw away)
196 2013-10-25 04:08:52 <gavinandresen> But those top N might not be getting into blocks for some reason we don't know about. LIke they're 1dice addresses and miners decide they don't like 1dice....
197 2013-10-25 04:08:58 <BlueMatt> sorry, misremembering how it was done, the design I did (and rather liked) was to use the thrown away ones to determine relay policy
198 2013-10-25 04:09:06 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
199 2013-10-25 04:10:06 <Ferroh> bitcoind is occasionally crashing with SIGSEGV in _int_malloc() on my fresh ubuntu install :/
200 2013-10-25 04:10:14 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: well it makes more sense to me to look at the ones which are sitting in mempool for M blocks
201 2013-10-25 04:10:14 <Ferroh> version 80500
202 2013-10-25 04:10:21 <BlueMatt> Ferroh: installed from where?
203 2013-10-25 04:10:25 <Ferroh> is this common or do i need to actually investigate it
204 2013-10-25 04:10:30 <Ferroh> i compiled it myself bluematt
205 2013-10-25 04:10:36 crass has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
206 2013-10-25 04:11:13 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: throw away txn when mempool gets bigger than P*MAX_BLOCK_SIZE, set relay policy based on thrown-away txn, watch your mempool for txn which have been there for M blocks, median those for your minfee-to-spend policy
207 2013-10-25 04:11:14 reneg has joined
208 2013-10-25 04:11:14 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: but if the relay/mempool policy is tuned correctly, there will be very few transactions sitting in the mempool for M blocks.
209 2013-10-25 04:11:19 reneg has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
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211 2013-10-25 04:11:40 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ⦠or to put it another way: a perfect relay policy would only relay transactions that will make it into the next block or two.
212 2013-10-25 04:11:45 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: assuming your mempool isnt exactly one block in size you can always have txn sit around and just miss the cut forever
213 2013-10-25 04:11:46 crass has joined
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215 2013-10-25 04:12:10 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I disagree, a perfect relay policy would take into account the non-constant nature of block creation
216 2013-10-25 04:12:20 <BlueMatt> (ie if 6 blocks are created in 5 minutes, we want to be able to fill those)
217 2013-10-25 04:12:34 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: In any case "there isn't one right way to do it" and I hope that wallet start competing to have the Bestest, Fastest, Cheapest fee estimation code
218 2013-10-25 04:12:40 <BlueMatt> so you'd need a mempool that acts as a buffer for N blocks of txn
219 2013-10-25 04:13:26 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: considering lots of wallets are going spv and cant do the calculation, the realistic solution is gonna be to put the rpc output of bitcoind's getminfee on servers and people will trust those...
220 2013-10-25 04:13:37 <BlueMatt> so bitcoind should get it pretty close imho
221 2013-10-25 04:13:50 reneg has joined
222 2013-10-25 04:13:59 <gavinandresen> Well, in my empirical testing the algorithm I'm using does get it pretty close
223 2013-10-25 04:14:20 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: the current approach of just median txn sitting in mempool and use that to create relay policy seems really fuzzy to me
224 2013-10-25 04:14:31 <gavinandresen> ⦠and gets it pretty close pretty quickly (e.g. after 10 or so blocks it has a good idea of what is being accepted)
225 2013-10-25 04:14:32 <BlueMatt> and doesn't limit mempool size as strictly as Id like, mostly
226 2013-10-25 04:14:54 <BlueMatt> ideally, mempool would be very strictly limited in size imho
227 2013-10-25 04:15:21 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: agreed, mempool should be a small multiple of the block size.
228 2013-10-25 04:15:34 <BlueMatt> absolutely
229 2013-10-25 04:15:40 * Luke-Jr ponders how it'd react if miners started giving higher priority to users of compressed keys
230 2013-10-25 04:15:51 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: and correction: the "current approach" is median of txns that recently left the mempool and entered blocks.
231 2013-10-25 04:15:53 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: hence why I ask why not do that now instead of going half-way with fee stuff?
232 2013-10-25 04:16:17 <phantomcircuit> Ferroh, that's not good
233 2013-10-25 04:16:27 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: wat? I was under the impression it was agreed a /long/ time ago that fee policy should, under no circumstances, be based on txn that get into blocks
234 2013-10-25 04:16:32 <phantomcircuit> Ferroh, can you run in gdb to get a stack trace?
235 2013-10-25 04:17:02 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: doesn't the priority calculation sort of do that?
236 2013-10-25 04:17:12 <BlueMatt> not to say priority algorithm works right now...
237 2013-10-25 04:17:13 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: on one end
238 2013-10-25 04:17:13 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: why not limit mempool size now? Because I think there are higher priority things to work on
239 2013-10-25 04:17:19 <Ferroh> phantomcircuit, the error only occurs once per few hours
240 2013-10-25 04:18:15 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: making fees more sane is a very high priority for me now because what we have now will become increasingly broken as average block size approaches the soft 500K limit.
241 2013-10-25 04:18:25 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ehh, its actually surprisingly easy...
242 2013-10-25 04:18:38 <jgarzik> csjones, around, only to say I'm disappearing [into Windows... cursed printer software]
243 2013-10-25 04:18:38 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: give me some time
244 2013-10-25 04:18:52 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: hah, that sucks
245 2013-10-25 04:18:57 <jgarzik> csjones, email jgarzik@bitpay.com if you have a question or something
246 2013-10-25 04:19:14 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, indeed... hopefully a one time thing
247 2013-10-25 04:19:19 jgarzik has quit (Quit: grrrwindows)
248 2013-10-25 04:19:32 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: in any case, getting the blockchain tester working properly again is a really high priority right now, too
249 2013-10-25 04:19:33 crass has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
250 2013-10-25 04:19:35 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: in any case, averaging txn that get into blocks can be easily replaced with top-N-in-mempool, no?
251 2013-10-25 04:19:44 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea, Ive been looking at that off-and-on
252 2013-10-25 04:20:00 <BlueMatt> s/averaging/medianing/
253 2013-10-25 04:20:10 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: sure, how the estimate is made should be easy to swap out
254 2013-10-25 04:20:31 <BlueMatt> any chance you can replace the look-at-blocks with look-at-mempool?
255 2013-10-25 04:20:34 crass has joined
256 2013-10-25 04:20:52 <BlueMatt> look-at-blocks is too easy to attack if you're a miner and want to just fill your blocks with send-to-self-high-fee txn
257 2013-10-25 04:21:05 <BlueMatt> especially if you have some hashpower and make an agreement with others
258 2013-10-25 04:21:20 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: the code I wrote does not "look at blocks"
259 2013-10-25 04:21:42 <BlueMatt> oh, I thought you just said that?
260 2013-10-25 04:21:42 <BlueMatt> <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: and correction: the "current approach" is median of txns that recently left the mempool and entered blocks.
261 2013-10-25 04:21:51 <BlueMatt> left mempool for blocks is fairly similar
262 2013-10-25 04:21:57 <BlueMatt> not identical, sure, but similar
263 2013-10-25 04:22:12 <BlueMatt> mine block, broadcast txn, broadcast block
264 2013-10-25 04:22:18 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I addressed the concern about miners trying to influence the algorithm in my dev update blog post
265 2013-10-25 04:22:29 <gavinandresen> executive summary is: they can't.
266 2013-10-25 04:23:21 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: if you broadcast all your high-fee txn right before you broadcast the block you just mined?
267 2013-10-25 04:23:36 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: the blog post glosses over pretty much all the detail...
268 2013-10-25 04:23:48 <gavinandresen> if the block gets there first, then the transactions never enter the mempool
269 2013-10-25 04:24:02 <BlueMatt> and if the txn are broadcast seconds before, then they will
270 2013-10-25 04:24:02 cads has joined
271 2013-10-25 04:24:23 <gavinandresen> a finney attack to try to influence 50% median transaction fee?
272 2013-10-25 04:24:26 <BlueMatt> considering the very low fees we see in many txn today, you wouldnt give up much to do it too
273 2013-10-25 04:24:29 <gavinandresen> Mmm. Good luck with that.
274 2013-10-25 04:24:33 <BlueMatt> no, just broadcast in different order?
275 2013-10-25 04:24:38 <BlueMatt> you dont have to finney anything
276 2013-10-25 04:24:46 <BlueMatt> nodes process in-order, so they will always get the txn first
277 2013-10-25 04:24:54 <BlueMatt> (and broadcast the txn to their peers first)
278 2013-10-25 04:25:03 <BlueMatt> so they will get into mempool and then be immediately removed
279 2013-10-25 04:25:14 <gavinandresen> And if your block gets orphaned all of those sweet high transaction fees go to another miner
280 2013-10-25 04:25:34 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
281 2013-10-25 04:25:40 <BlueMatt> small risk if you have few txn of moderate fee compared to the very low/0 fees we see today
282 2013-10-25 04:25:53 <BlueMatt> and then nodes start paying a moderate fee and it adds up quickly
283 2013-10-25 04:26:19 <BlueMatt> if you have lots of hash power, it would likely make sense, as long as the influence in fees you created is still around when you mine your next block
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285 2013-10-25 04:27:16 <BlueMatt> orphan risk is relatively low, as long as you pay fees < orphan rate * prob that you make another block before the influence you create goes away
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287 2013-10-25 04:27:33 <BlueMatt> for a miner with like 25% hash power, that looks pretty good to me
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289 2013-10-25 04:27:59 <BlueMatt> s/*/+/
290 2013-10-25 04:28:02 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: sigh. I'll run a back-of-the-envelope to convince you it doesn't make economic sense.
291 2013-10-25 04:28:12 reneg has joined
292 2013-10-25 04:28:17 <gavinandresen> ⦠but I'll have to dig out the data I have on the spread of transaction fees being paid today
293 2013-10-25 04:29:05 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: other thing to keep in mind is a lot of fees today are hard-coded constants because no one write fee calculators
294 2013-10-25 04:29:10 <gavinandresen> With a 50% median as the "this is a reasonable fee to pay" threshold, a 25% miner would have to basically dedicate ALL of their block to high-fee send-to-self transactions to have a significant effect
295 2013-10-25 04:29:15 <BlueMatt> if you add one, all of a sudden people realize they can pay 0 fees and...
296 2013-10-25 04:29:24 <gavinandresen> ⦠and would have to broadcast them all before the block....
297 2013-10-25 04:29:29 <gavinandresen> ⦠which would increase their orphan rate...
298 2013-10-25 04:29:55 <gavinandresen> ⦠all to get higher fees⦠but since they aren't including any transactions in their blocks except pay-to-self they don't get those fees....
299 2013-10-25 04:30:29 <BlueMatt> hmm...yes, it may be hard to pull off given current hard-coded fees
300 2013-10-25 04:30:36 <BlueMatt> not sure if that will stick around, but who knows
301 2013-10-25 04:30:41 <gavinandresen> Even with non-hard-coded fees it will be hard to pull off.
302 2013-10-25 04:31:00 <BlueMatt> non-hard-coded fees could end up at 0
303 2013-10-25 04:31:08 <BlueMatt> depending on implementation and all kinds of things
304 2013-10-25 04:31:39 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: did you see the "information propagation" paper by cdecker and roger wattenhofer?
305 2013-10-25 04:32:08 <BlueMatt> really, the foundation needs to hire like 5 people to work full-time on bitcoind to get all the things done it needs :(
306 2013-10-25 04:32:33 <BlueMatt> no
307 2013-10-25 04:33:20 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'll find the link⦠but they look at tx/block propagation times, and come up with 80ms delay for each addtional 1K of block size
308 2013-10-25 04:33:24 <BlueMatt> reading it
309 2013-10-25 04:34:16 * BlueMatt wonders how much large pools peer directly with each other
310 2013-10-25 04:34:31 <BlueMatt> and how much they publicize their nodes so they can peer with large individual/p2poolish miners
311 2013-10-25 04:34:43 <BlueMatt> seems like there is a very strong incentive to do that
312 2013-10-25 04:34:52 <gavinandresen> Yup.
313 2013-10-25 04:35:08 <BlueMatt> wasnt jgarzik working on that or so?
314 2013-10-25 04:35:19 <gavinandresen> Most interesting result from that paper might be them single-handedly cutting the orphan block rate
315 2013-10-25 04:35:37 <gavinandresen> yeah, a 'backbone network' was something jgarzik was talking about long ago....
316 2013-10-25 04:35:51 <BlueMatt> can we just do that?
317 2013-10-25 04:36:08 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: blockchain.info might be doing that already....
318 2013-10-25 04:36:11 <BlueMatt> I mean foundation can afford a vps or three for a few nodes and then just work out contracts between others
319 2013-10-25 04:36:26 <BlueMatt> really its a matter of convincing others to do it
320 2013-10-25 04:36:42 <BlueMatt> and then getting up a few nodes that peer into that network of highly-connected peers that are public
321 2013-10-25 04:37:54 <gavinandresen> Feels like there is a grant to be given there...
322 2013-10-25 04:37:55 gingpark has joined
323 2013-10-25 04:38:08 * BlueMatt raises his hand, Ive been wanting to do that forever
324 2013-10-25 04:38:22 <BlueMatt> well, should probably see if jgarzik made any progress first
325 2013-10-25 04:38:41 <gavinandresen> Some sort of "there's a high-speed backbone that is different from the Internet because we somehow keep out the DoS'ers and only allow trusted nodes to join and contribute traffic"
326 2013-10-25 04:38:54 sustrik has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
327 2013-10-25 04:38:59 <gavinandresen> I have no idea how you decide who is trusted enough to put data on it, though.
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329 2013-10-25 04:39:23 <BlueMatt> well, you have different levels of "you connect to all others in the core of like 10 groups, essentially just miners"
330 2013-10-25 04:39:25 MC1984 has joined
331 2013-10-25 04:39:39 <BlueMatt> to "you connect to some edge nodes that are in the core just for second level"
332 2013-10-25 04:39:42 sustrik has joined
333 2013-10-25 04:39:49 <gavinandresen> Anyway, I brought up block propagation times because I'm still convinced that puts a floor on transaction fees, so fees won't go to zero.
334 2013-10-25 04:39:50 <BlueMatt> to "you are public and mining on p2pool and connect to second level edge nodes"
335 2013-10-25 04:40:25 <BlueMatt> hmm, well Ive always doubted the fee-goes-to-0 thing, but if you implement it marginally wrong, its quite possible because most of fees are just controlled by software recommendations, realistically
336 2013-10-25 04:40:58 <BlueMatt> and if it does go to 0, I think gaming may happen, hell miners would have a very strong incentive to group together and do it
337 2013-10-25 04:41:08 <BlueMatt> or at least marginal such that fees are <<< block reward
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414 2013-10-25 06:04:06 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: good call on getting the block tester to work on master, seems there is a regression hiding here
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455 2013-10-25 06:45:23 <BlueMatt> any core devs awake?
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463 2013-10-25 06:58:39 <petertodd> better than nothing :P
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468 2013-10-25 07:01:48 <BlueMatt> them with push, be I referring to
469 2013-10-25 07:02:02 <wumpus> yes
470 2013-10-25 07:02:31 <petertodd> BlueMatt: I shouldn't reveal the extend of my 1337 HAX0R skills in a public channel
471 2013-10-25 07:02:41 <BlueMatt> lol
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482 2013-10-25 07:29:54 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/28f6b8dbad27f0dac72daca6f1bfe41d7e701908
483 2013-10-25 07:30:01 <warren> I'm having trouble finding the PR that included this.
484 2013-10-25 07:30:18 shesek has joined
485 2013-10-25 07:30:28 freewil has joined
486 2013-10-25 07:31:48 <Luke-Jr> warren: it didn't go through one
487 2013-10-25 07:32:46 <warren> o_O
488 2013-10-25 07:33:17 <warren> I backported it to 0.8.5 a while ago, and now I can't figure out how I identified it.
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493 2013-10-25 07:39:00 <CodeShark> I'm trying to make sense of the merkleblock traversal encoding - the flags aren't really making sense
494 2013-10-25 07:39:52 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: heh, good luck there
495 2013-10-25 07:39:55 reneg has joined
496 2013-10-25 07:39:59 <BlueMatt> where are you stuck?
497 2013-10-25 07:42:48 <CodeShark> so say we traverse nodes a, b, c, d, e, f, and g and the flags (in hex) are 1d
498 2013-10-25 07:43:02 <CodeShark> and four hashes are stored
499 2013-10-25 07:43:29 <CodeShark> so 0x1d = 00011101 (in binary)
500 2013-10-25 07:43:55 <CodeShark> the traversal begins with the rightmost bit, correct?
501 2013-10-25 07:44:18 <CodeShark> so a = 1, b = 0, c = 1, d = 1, e = 1, f = 1, g = 0
502 2013-10-25 07:44:33 Anduck has joined
503 2013-10-25 07:44:51 <CodeShark> and the initial two bits are ignored, yes?
504 2013-10-25 07:45:32 <CodeShark> a is the merkle root, then we move to the left and store a 0 which means the first stored hash corresponds to this node, yes?
505 2013-10-25 07:47:11 <CodeShark> I'd like to put a couple specific examples in the documentation
506 2013-10-25 07:47:13 <BlueMatt> sounds right
507 2013-10-25 07:47:28 <BlueMatt> sounds like a good idea
508 2013-10-25 07:48:07 askmike has joined
509 2013-10-25 07:49:19 <CodeShark> BlueMatt: have you implemented an SP
510 2013-10-25 07:49:23 <CodeShark> *SPV client?
511 2013-10-25 07:49:37 <BlueMatt> Ive worked a lot on bitcoinj, but thats still like 95% mike
512 2013-10-25 07:49:39 <BlueMatt> if not more
513 2013-10-25 07:52:50 <BlueMatt> lots of the bloom filtering code is mine, though the partial merkle tree stuff is sipa
514 2013-10-25 07:53:25 <CodeShark> I guess I'll just go through the bitcoind source
515 2013-10-25 07:54:43 <BlueMatt> bitcoinj is possibly more readable
516 2013-10-25 07:54:46 <BlueMatt> if you're a java person
517 2013-10-25 07:54:56 <CodeShark> I'm far more familiar with the bitcoind source
518 2013-10-25 07:55:07 reizuki__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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521 2013-10-25 08:02:31 <thermoman> hi
522 2013-10-25 08:02:34 Adrao has joined
523 2013-10-25 08:03:42 <thermoman> i'm running a 0.7.2 client before a 0.8.5 client and now the 0.7.2 client did ban the 0.8.5 client
524 2013-10-25 08:04:02 <thermoman> the 0.8.5 client (child) uses connect=<IP from 0.7.2 client(A)>
525 2013-10-25 08:04:27 <thermoman> how can i whitelist the (child) on (A)?
526 2013-10-25 08:04:29 gritball has joined
527 2013-10-25 08:04:44 <thermoman> 10/24/13 16:08:55 ERROR: CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin empty
528 2013-10-25 08:04:45 <thermoman> 10/24/13 16:08:55 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : CheckTransaction failed
529 2013-10-25 08:04:59 <thermoman> Misbehaving: <IP>:53081 (20 -> 30)
530 2013-10-25 08:05:09 <thermoman> onnection from <IP>:53092 dropped (banned)
531 2013-10-25 08:05:58 Goonie has joined
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534 2013-10-25 08:11:09 <BlueMatt> thermoman: better question - why did the 0.8.5 client relay that transaction?
535 2013-10-25 08:13:44 JDuke128 has quit ()
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541 2013-10-25 08:20:43 <thermoman> BlueMatt: we have a 0.7.2 (A) acting as proxy, and 2 childs running 0.7.2 and 2 childs running 0.8.5.
542 2013-10-25 08:20:56 <thermoman> our dev used one of the 0.7.2 childs to send out transaction - which always worked
543 2013-10-25 08:21:14 <thermoman> yesterday he choose to send out transactions via one of the 0.8.5 childs
544 2013-10-25 08:21:16 <BlueMatt> well you sent out a broken transaction (are you using a modified node?)
545 2013-10-25 08:21:27 <BlueMatt> bitcoind wont let you do that by default afaik
546 2013-10-25 08:21:30 <thermoman> instead of the 0.7.2 child - and oops there are these error messages with empty vin
547 2013-10-25 08:21:41 <thermoman> nothing modified
548 2013-10-25 08:21:48 <thermoman> it's stock compiled from source
549 2013-10-25 08:21:50 <BlueMatt> then you done found a bug
550 2013-10-25 08:21:55 <BlueMatt> how did he send that tx?
551 2013-10-25 08:22:01 <thermoman> i'll ask him
552 2013-10-25 08:22:48 ThomasV has joined
553 2013-10-25 08:23:05 gingpark has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
554 2013-10-25 08:23:46 <thermoman> he used two different methods: some transactions are grouped (10 tx in one) and some are send individually
555 2013-10-25 08:23:49 bmcgee has joined
556 2013-10-25 08:23:57 <thermoman> we have a partial tx in the error message
557 2013-10-25 08:24:05 <thermoman> but he can't find that tx in our database
558 2013-10-25 08:24:13 <BlueMatt> you mean eg sendrawtransaction rpc?
559 2013-10-25 08:24:19 <thermoman> nope
560 2013-10-25 08:24:25 <thermoman> he doesn't use sendraw
561 2013-10-25 08:24:38 <BlueMatt> regular sendmoney sent a tx with 0 vin?
562 2013-10-25 08:24:41 <BlueMatt> wat?
563 2013-10-25 08:25:22 <thermoman> he uses sendmany or sendfrom
564 2013-10-25 08:25:37 <thermoman> but he doesn't know at this state which of the two caused this
565 2013-10-25 08:25:51 <thermoman> because he can't link the tx that failed to our log
566 2013-10-25 08:26:06 <thermoman> 10/24/13 16:08:55 received getdata for: tx 9f6cc3544bcb4358295b
567 2013-10-25 08:26:20 gingpark has joined
568 2013-10-25 08:26:22 <thermoman> thats from the log before the client got banned
569 2013-10-25 08:26:37 <thermoman> 10/24/13 16:08:55 ERROR: CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin empty
570 2013-10-25 08:26:37 <thermoman> 10/24/13 16:08:55 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : CheckTransaction failed
571 2013-10-25 08:26:53 <BlueMatt> what does the client that sent the transaction show, is the real question?
572 2013-10-25 08:26:53 Lekane has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
573 2013-10-25 08:26:56 <thermoman> 10/24/13 16:08:55 Misbehaving: <IP>:53081 (20 -> 30)
574 2013-10-25 08:27:13 <thermoman> you mean look in debug.log of the child?
575 2013-10-25 08:27:38 <CodeShark> try to get the raw transaction
576 2013-10-25 08:28:35 <CodeShark> sendmany and sendfrom should never have an empty vin unless either you've modified bitcoind or there's a bug
577 2013-10-25 08:33:12 <thermoman> modified bitcoind = negative
578 2013-10-25 08:33:24 <thermoman> how do i get the raw transaction?
579 2013-10-25 08:33:39 <CodeShark> use getrawtransaction on the client that sent
580 2013-10-25 08:34:02 <thermoman> but then again we need to know what TX caused that
581 2013-10-25 08:34:25 <CodeShark> have you sent many transactions since from this client?
582 2013-10-25 08:35:22 <thermoman> the client says at the time this happened on the proxy node:
583 2013-10-25 08:35:26 <thermoman> 2013-10-24 16:08:55 ResendWalletTransactions()
584 2013-10-25 08:35:26 <thermoman> 2013-10-24 16:08:55 Relaying wtx 19fc786f155c9d5f468bc844430e62c3d59cef56eaa2a27bdfdf16df672ca0b5
585 2013-10-25 08:35:29 <thermoman> 2013-10-24 16:08:55 Relaying wtx a7eb2485ca9600f99ed4bcd778cb6cdcb51c11fdbd587c440e8850b8de3679c1
586 2013-10-25 08:35:32 <thermoman> 2013-10-24 16:08:55 received getdata for: tx d21633ba23f70118185227be58a63527675641ad37967e2aa461559f577aec43
587 2013-10-25 08:35:35 <thermoman> .
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596 2013-10-25 08:45:03 <CodeShark> here's the output of my program: http://pastebin.com/C5MUjzy9
597 2013-10-25 08:45:13 <CodeShark> the flags are 5d01
598 2013-10-25 08:45:25 <CodeShark> however, only nine nodes should be traversed'=
599 2013-10-25 08:47:22 sipa has joined
600 2013-10-25 08:47:45 <BlueMatt> hey, there's a sipa
601 2013-10-25 08:47:53 <sipa> where?
602 2013-10-25 08:48:14 * BlueMatt is lazy and was just trying to get a response so gribble could deliver later tell's
603 2013-10-25 08:48:36 <CodeShark> sipa, I'm struggling a bit going over the documentation and source for the partial merkle tree - I'd like to add a couple concrete examples to the documentation to leave no doubt as to how the data is formatted
604 2013-10-25 08:48:53 <sipa> CodeShark: please do! :)
605 2013-10-25 08:49:08 <CodeShark> the tree is traversed depth-first in-fix?
606 2013-10-25 08:49:48 <CodeShark> that's to say, the flag bits correspond to the nodes traversed in-fix?
607 2013-10-25 08:50:19 <sipa> prefix
608 2013-10-25 08:50:31 <CodeShark> I posted the output of my program here: http://pastebin.com/C5MUjzy9
609 2013-10-25 08:50:36 oru has joined
610 2013-10-25 08:50:47 <sipa> you output a flag before descending into the children
611 2013-10-25 08:51:02 <CodeShark> basically, I create a bloom filter with two elements (each corresponding to a pubkey hash)
612 2013-10-25 08:51:18 <CodeShark> I ask specifically for a full block, then ask for the filtered block
613 2013-10-25 08:51:33 <CodeShark> the two transactions that match the filter have indices 4 and 7 in the block
614 2013-10-25 08:52:11 <CodeShark> so the flags are 5d01
615 2013-10-25 08:52:45 <CodeShark> there are only nine nodes traversed, so presumably the first 7 bits of the second byte are irrelevant
616 2013-10-25 08:55:11 <CodeShark> perhaps I can use mathematica to create some pretty graphics :)
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618 2013-10-25 08:59:11 TD[away] is now known as TD
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620 2013-10-25 09:01:41 <TD> good morning
621 2013-10-25 09:03:59 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
622 2013-10-25 09:05:23 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
623 2013-10-25 09:06:10 <BlueMatt> morning TD
624 2013-10-25 09:06:14 <BlueMatt> oh, shit, Im up this late?
625 2013-10-25 09:06:16 <BlueMatt> fuck
626 2013-10-25 09:06:26 <TD> haha
627 2013-10-25 09:06:35 <TD> GOOD MORNING ! :)
628 2013-10-25 09:06:43 <BlueMatt> indeed, sun in like an hour
629 2013-10-25 09:07:24 <TD> prime hacking time over. hit the sack ... btw thanks to you and petertodd for the discussion on the script stuff
630 2013-10-25 09:07:36 <BlueMatt> thanks to him for auditing things
631 2013-10-25 09:07:47 <BlueMatt> nooo, must finish task at hand
632 2013-10-25 09:10:51 <CodeShark> ok, so the tree basically looks like this: http://blockhawk.net/images/PartialMerkleTree.pdf
633 2013-10-25 09:11:05 <TD> yes, indeed. i'll mention that in the release notes for the next release.
634 2013-10-25 09:11:16 <BlueMatt> TD: btw, any chance to look over nonetty any time recently?
635 2013-10-25 09:11:19 <CodeShark> the nodes are numbered in traversal order, the included hashes are shown
636 2013-10-25 09:11:34 <BlueMatt> TD: if not, I may have some time to bang on the update you suggested
637 2013-10-25 09:11:39 <TD> i've been focused on my end-of-november deadline
638 2013-10-25 09:11:48 <TD> so other than rebasing i didn't do anything lately.
639 2013-10-25 09:11:55 <BlueMatt> oh, end-of-november already? shit
640 2013-10-25 09:11:56 <BlueMatt> have fun
641 2013-10-25 09:11:56 <TD> also i've been pushing the micropayments work through to completion
642 2013-10-25 09:12:08 <TD> https://github.com/mikehearn/PayFile
643 2013-10-25 09:12:16 <CodeShark> so how do the flags 5d01 correspond to this tree?
644 2013-10-25 09:12:17 <TD> basically there's two bugs/edge cases left, and I want to rename CLOSE to SETTLE in the protocol
645 2013-10-25 09:12:23 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
646 2013-10-25 09:12:29 <TD> because it was getting way too confusing to have multiple kinds of close/unbind/settle floating around under the same name
647 2013-10-25 09:12:46 <TD> then i reckon our first demo app will be ready for release! i got myself an apple codesigning cert the other day in anticipation
648 2013-10-25 09:12:58 Coincidental has joined
649 2013-10-25 09:13:15 <BlueMatt> yea, I kinda went overboard on the whole an-attacker-might-do-this-so-legitimate-nodes-should-too-as-a-part-of-the-protocol design stuff....
650 2013-10-25 09:13:24 <TD> i/we need to decide how to handle the case where the client tries to settle the channel without having sent enough money to make it valid yet.
651 2013-10-25 09:13:30 <TD> s/valid/settleable/
652 2013-10-25 09:13:38 <CodeShark> sipa, you still there?
653 2013-10-25 09:13:43 <TD> at the moment the server throws an exception, which is fine, but then the client and server get de-synced and stuff gets messy.
654 2013-10-25 09:13:52 grau has joined
655 2013-10-25 09:14:02 <TD> so, yeah .... possibly changing the protocol to demand the min-settleable payment up front as part of the initiate phase
656 2013-10-25 09:14:20 <BlueMatt> throw-away-all-money makes sense to me
657 2013-10-25 09:14:30 <BlueMatt> as long as the server rate-limits things (which it should anyway)
658 2013-10-25 09:14:43 <TD> well, yes, then it gets harder to implement as you have to watch out for "repeat offenders"
659 2013-10-25 09:14:56 <TD> demanding an up-front payment also works, but then you have to specify it as part of the higher level app protocol
660 2013-10-25 09:15:08 <BlueMatt> you have to rate limit anyway, and gavin is working on killing dust stuff recently
661 2013-10-25 09:16:45 <TD> why do you have to rate limit?
662 2013-10-25 09:17:00 <TD> if you're charging money for a service, it's inherently anti-DoS-proofed to some extent by the fact that the attacker will run out of money
663 2013-10-25 09:17:01 <BlueMatt> because dos?
664 2013-10-25 09:17:19 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
665 2013-10-25 09:17:20 <BlueMatt> create-close-without-paying dos
666 2013-10-25 09:17:22 <BlueMatt> that is
667 2013-10-25 09:17:26 <TD> if you do work and throw away the money, THEN you have to do extra anti-DoS code to make the attacker burn other valuable resources, like IP addresses
668 2013-10-25 09:17:40 <TD> well yes, exactly. that's why i'm saying, maybe you shouldn't be able to create without paying.
669 2013-10-25 09:17:59 <BlueMatt> ahh, ok
670 2013-10-25 09:17:59 <TD> it's also an easy programming error to make. right now the API is basically: open a channel. make payments of whatever amount you like. settle.
671 2013-10-25 09:18:03 <BlueMatt> well Im too tired to reason reasonably
672 2013-10-25 09:18:15 <TD> so the natural thing to do is like, attach "download next chunk of file data" to "increment payment"
673 2013-10-25 09:18:36 <TD> but then with that totally natural and intuitive design you introduce a bug because if the file is too small, or the user cancels the download too fast -> crash
674 2013-10-25 09:18:47 <BlueMatt> wait, why does it crash
675 2013-10-25 09:18:52 <BlueMatt> doesnt it throw money away
676 2013-10-25 09:18:58 <TD> i mean the server throws an exception
677 2013-10-25 09:18:59 <BlueMatt> and it could just make the user wait until the time expires
678 2013-10-25 09:19:06 <BlueMatt> then its inherinently anti-dos
679 2013-10-25 09:19:21 <TD> well but then the end user gets randomly whacked with money locked up, just for the "crime" of downloading a small file instead of a big one.
680 2013-10-25 09:19:33 <BlueMatt> well, it should just say "fuck it", you get no payment, user spent some effort to lock up money, but thats their payment
681 2013-10-25 09:20:09 <TD> sigh. this dust thing is such a massive pain in the ass.
682 2013-10-25 09:20:16 <BlueMatt> its going away, apparently
683 2013-10-25 09:20:21 <TD> no, i wish
684 2013-10-25 09:20:29 <TD> it just gets even more fucking complicated. it's going to float.
685 2013-10-25 09:20:44 <TD> and each node will have a different estimate of what the dust limit actually is
686 2013-10-25 09:21:12 <TD> is gavinandresen around?
687 2013-10-25 09:21:17 Clown has joined
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691 2013-10-25 09:21:34 <BlueMatt> well, it already does float, in the sense that if you send crap you (maybe) wont be accepted into a block
692 2013-10-25 09:21:37 <BlueMatt> (in the future)
693 2013-10-25 09:21:45 <BlueMatt> (now miners take everything so it doesnt matter)
694 2013-10-25 09:22:01 <BlueMatt> but thats limited anyway
695 2013-10-25 09:22:01 debiantoruser has joined
696 2013-10-25 09:22:48 <CodeShark> could someone explain to me how the flag bits correspond to the tree nodes? http://blockhawk.net/MerkleBlock/
697 2013-10-25 09:22:49 <TD> i wonder how many more doublings of the exchange rate we need until the cost of the 200 bytes or whatever a utxo output costs is lower than 1 satoshi
698 2013-10-25 09:22:55 tonikt has joined
699 2013-10-25 09:23:22 <TD> CodeShark: you consume a bit each time you step through the tree, iirc
700 2013-10-25 09:23:28 <TD> CodeShark: sipa can explain it better, he designed it :)
701 2013-10-25 09:23:40 <CodeShark> yes, I get the general idea but I would like to know specifically how it works in this example
702 2013-10-25 09:23:54 <CodeShark> I can't seem to get the bits to match up with the node traversal the way I've numbered it
703 2013-10-25 09:23:59 <BlueMatt> TD: what we need is a million merchants worth a few mil each who run nodes for the good of bitcoin
704 2013-10-25 09:24:06 <BlueMatt> (and mine a bit each)
705 2013-10-25 09:24:09 <BlueMatt> then we're golden
706 2013-10-25 09:24:11 <TD> heh
707 2013-10-25 09:24:38 <TD> ok, well, how about this. a server can already specify a minimum amount that it's willing to tolerate being put into a channel
708 2013-10-25 09:24:46 HobGoblin has joined
709 2013-10-25 09:24:51 <CodeShark> I would like to know if 1) the node ordering I've given is the correct traversal order and 2) how the bits in 0x5d01 correspond to the nodes
710 2013-10-25 09:24:58 <TD> why can we not just make that the min payment that has to be presented as the refund instead of the current "all back to me" refund?
711 2013-10-25 09:25:06 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: no idea, test it?
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715 2013-10-25 09:25:23 <CodeShark> sipa was just in here and claimed it's a depth-first prefix traversal
716 2013-10-25 09:25:25 UukGoblin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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718 2013-10-25 09:25:38 <CodeShark> which if I understand correctly, it means I've numbered the nodes in the order of traversal starting at 0 and ending at 8
719 2013-10-25 09:25:53 neep3r__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
720 2013-10-25 09:26:09 <CodeShark> problem is I can't seem to get the flag bits to match up to the nodes correctly
721 2013-10-25 09:26:14 <BlueMatt> TD: hmm...sounds like fun, as long as the client app has some concept of what it wants to spend up front
722 2013-10-25 09:26:24 <BlueMatt> TD: wait, why is there a min amount right now?
723 2013-10-25 09:26:32 <TD> because you put it there!
724 2013-10-25 09:26:40 <BlueMatt> Im sure I had a reason
725 2013-10-25 09:26:40 <TD> remember the minValue negotiation that takes place during INITIATE?
726 2013-10-25 09:26:41 <TD> haha
727 2013-10-25 09:26:48 <TD> perhaps we just re-discovered what that reason was
728 2013-10-25 09:27:00 <TD> actually i was wondering about that too, as it adds some error cases that have to be handled ....
729 2013-10-25 09:27:02 <BlueMatt> right now Im only really incredibly tired (and a wee bit drunk), so I cant say I remember why
730 2013-10-25 09:27:10 <TD> ok
731 2013-10-25 09:27:18 <TD> well it'll be a few days until i circle back around to this
732 2013-10-25 09:27:46 <BlueMatt> ok, well send me mail and Ill respond when I can think through everything and make a well-reasoned argument as to why I was right all-along
733 2013-10-25 09:27:54 <TD> ok. it was probably an anti-DoS thing
734 2013-10-25 09:27:55 <BlueMatt> and fuck reality, I must've been right, right?
735 2013-10-25 09:28:00 <TD> like preventing you from creating lots of tiny channels
736 2013-10-25 09:28:05 <BlueMatt> probably
737 2013-10-25 09:28:06 <TD> you define your own reality matt
738 2013-10-25 09:28:42 <BlueMatt> "I reject to reality and substitute my own" -Adam Savage
739 2013-10-25 09:29:08 <TD> CodeShark: the entire block only had 8 transactions in it?
740 2013-10-25 09:29:13 <CodeShark> yes
741 2013-10-25 09:29:21 <CodeShark> I purposely chose a relatively small block
742 2013-10-25 09:29:42 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: is this example dumped from real values?
743 2013-10-25 09:29:46 <CodeShark> yes
744 2013-10-25 09:31:03 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: that absolutely looks right to me, assuming the byte-order is right
745 2013-10-25 09:31:12 <CodeShark> the filter matched the transactions at the nodes I've numbered 5 and 8 (which correspond to transactions 4 and 7 zero-indexed in the block)
746 2013-10-25 09:31:28 <BlueMatt> ok, then that must be right
747 2013-10-25 09:31:37 <CodeShark> so the flags are 0101110100000001
748 2013-10-25 09:31:45 <CodeShark> which bit corresponds to which node?
749 2013-10-25 09:32:33 <CodeShark> node 0 has bit true or false?
750 2013-10-25 09:32:56 <BlueMatt> order (based on your indexes) appears to be, 101110101
751 2013-10-25 09:33:00 <BlueMatt> then 0-padded
752 2013-10-25 09:33:10 <CodeShark> the documentation says the bit indicates whether the node "is the parent of at least one matched leaf txid (or a matched txid itself)
753 2013-10-25 09:33:17 JTF195 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
754 2013-10-25 09:33:20 <BlueMatt> so, starting right per byte, byte order flips it around here
755 2013-10-25 09:33:20 <TD> it's a little-endian value
756 2013-10-25 09:34:08 <CodeShark> ok, so using the notation (node, bit) we have (0, true), (1, false), (2, true)
757 2013-10-25 09:34:20 <CodeShark> but 2 is not a parent of a matched leaf txid
758 2013-10-25 09:34:37 <TD> to decode you run the traversal in reverse, right
759 2013-10-25 09:35:10 <BlueMatt> am I looking at a different diagram? 2 is the parent of 3 and 6 which both have children
760 2013-10-25 09:35:12 <BlueMatt> which are matched
761 2013-10-25 09:35:18 <CodeShark> yes
762 2013-10-25 09:35:54 <CodeShark> is it "ancestor" rather than "parent"?
763 2013-10-25 09:35:56 <BlueMatt> so 0 is true as 2 is matched, 1 is false as it has no children, 2 is true as 3 and 6 match, 4 is true as it is a match, 5 is not...
764 2013-10-25 09:36:02 <BlueMatt> ancestor
765 2013-10-25 09:36:05 <TD> the bit means "parent of match" unless we're at the leaf node
766 2013-10-25 09:36:14 <CodeShark> parent or ancestor?
767 2013-10-25 09:36:20 <BlueMatt> ancestor
768 2013-10-25 09:36:29 <BlueMatt> or parent of something with a 1-bit
769 2013-10-25 09:37:41 <CodeShark> so (0, true), (1, false), (2, true), (3, true), (4, true), (5, false), (6, true), (7, false), (8, true)
770 2013-10-25 09:38:03 <TD> BlueMatt: the bitcoinj code for this is rather confusing because you expect a method named "recursiveExtractHashes" to recurse down the tree from the top.
771 2013-10-25 09:38:11 <TD> BlueMatt: in fact it walks up the tree from the bottom
772 2013-10-25 09:38:21 <TD> what's more it has this code:
773 2013-10-25 09:38:22 <TD> / otherwise, descend into the subtrees to extract matched txids and hashes
774 2013-10-25 09:38:22 <TD> byte[] left = recursiveExtractHashes(height-1, pos*2, used, matchedHashes).getBytes(), right;
775 2013-10-25 09:38:35 <TD> but in fact it subtracts one from the height, going UP the tree, not descending
776 2013-10-25 09:38:53 <BlueMatt> TD: blame sipa, I copied the C++ and tweaked syntax until it compiled
777 2013-10-25 09:39:03 <CodeShark> lol
778 2013-10-25 09:39:03 <TD> i think that's probably what CodeShark should do.
779 2013-10-25 09:39:06 <BlueMatt> cheating, I know, but I was pressed for time and lazy
780 2013-10-25 09:39:27 * TD blames sipa
781 2013-10-25 09:39:40 <BlueMatt> also, I see your up/down confusion and flip your tree
782 2013-10-25 09:39:41 <BlueMatt> (or you)
783 2013-10-25 09:39:48 <CodeShark> why not just establish a canonical node labeling and a structure to indicate which nodes in the tree are hashes?
784 2013-10-25 09:39:52 execut3 has joined
785 2013-10-25 09:40:06 <CodeShark> then let the implementation traverse as it pleases
786 2013-10-25 09:40:06 <sipa> CodeShark: sorry, battery died
787 2013-10-25 09:40:08 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: too much effort?
788 2013-10-25 09:40:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: waaatttt? no, we have magic these days, betteries never die
789 2013-10-25 09:40:31 <CodeShark> sipa, so I've posted an example of a merkleblock at http://blockhawk.net/MerkleBlock/
790 2013-10-25 09:40:37 <TD> CodeShark: originally the entire merkle tree was provided. sipa suggested this representation as it was more compact.
791 2013-10-25 09:41:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: i plugged in my phone at night, but didn't realize the cable wasn't plugged into the wall socket...
792 2013-10-25 09:41:06 <CodeShark> I'm not sure I'm understanding how the flag bits correspond to the nodes in the tree
793 2013-10-25 09:41:24 <sipa> CodeShark: do a depth-first search over the nodes in the tree
794 2013-10-25 09:41:24 <BlueMatt> wooo, data usage for last month: 15GB: suck it unlimited date
795 2013-10-25 09:41:39 <CodeShark> sipa: so is the node numbering from 0 to 8 in the correct order of traversal?
796 2013-10-25 09:41:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: ouch...I did that last monday...
797 2013-10-25 09:41:53 <BlueMatt> TD: again: lazy
798 2013-10-25 09:42:06 <TD> there's a lot to be said for simplicity
799 2013-10-25 09:42:08 <sipa> every time you encounter a node that either has 1) leafs (=txids) beneath it that need to be included or 2) level-0 (=txid) themself, output a bit
800 2013-10-25 09:42:30 <TD> you mean output a 1 bit
801 2013-10-25 09:42:35 <sipa> no, output a bit
802 2013-10-25 09:42:45 <sipa> wait
803 2013-10-25 09:42:50 <sipa> i'll need to re-read it myself
804 2013-10-25 09:43:05 <sipa> yes, that's correct
805 2013-10-25 09:43:23 <sipa> the bit balue indicates whether the nodes has children to be included or not
806 2013-10-25 09:43:26 <sipa> value
807 2013-10-25 09:43:38 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
808 2013-10-25 09:43:38 <sipa> and 0 bits indicate 'this branch is pruned, don't descend further'
809 2013-10-25 09:43:46 <CodeShark> so my first question is: is the node ordering from 0 to 8 in the tree in the correct order of traversal?
810 2013-10-25 09:44:06 <TD> the BIP really needs a lot more detail on how this works
811 2013-10-25 09:44:25 <TD> it has a single paragraph which doesn't give enough detail. like, it says "traverse the tree in depth first order", but is that left to right or right to left?
812 2013-10-25 09:44:25 <sipa> CodeShark: looks right
813 2013-10-25 09:44:33 <sipa> TD: agree
814 2013-10-25 09:44:50 <CodeShark> ok, so then my second question: does each numbered node correspond to exactly one bit in the flags?
815 2013-10-25 09:45:00 <BlueMatt> TD: thats only an issue for people in non-left-to-right languages who dont usually think left-to-right
816 2013-10-25 09:45:09 <sipa> CodeShark: yes
817 2013-10-25 09:45:28 <sipa> CodeShark: which leafs are to be included?
818 2013-10-25 09:45:41 bitRipperX has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
819 2013-10-25 09:46:00 <CodeShark> ok, so then my third question: what is the correspondence? we grab each byte left-to-right and read each bit right-to-left
820 2013-10-25 09:46:20 <CodeShark> the first byte is 0x5d = 01011101
821 2013-10-25 09:46:39 <TD> the whole bit array is LE
822 2013-10-25 09:46:42 <CodeShark> this means that node 0 corresponds to 1, node 1 corresponds to 0, node 2 corresponds to 1, etc...?
823 2013-10-25 09:47:08 <sipa> bits 0,2,3,6 are certainly 1
824 2013-10-25 09:47:14 <sipa> bit 1 is certainly 0
825 2013-10-25 09:47:30 <sipa> for bits 4,5,7,8 it depends on whether that txid is to be included
826 2013-10-25 09:47:35 <TD> huh, that's not LE
827 2013-10-25 09:48:23 <CodeShark> nodes 4 and 7 match the filter
828 2013-10-25 09:48:26 <CodeShark> err
829 2013-10-25 09:48:31 <CodeShark> nodes 5 and 8
830 2013-10-25 09:48:34 <CodeShark> err
831 2013-10-25 09:48:36 <TD> sipa: in CPartialMerkleTree::TraverseAndExtract it talks about "descending" but subtracts from the height each time, which starts at the max height of the tree.
832 2013-10-25 09:48:38 <CodeShark> nodes 4 and 8
833 2013-10-25 09:48:45 <TD> sipa: so the comment doesn't appear to correspond with what the code does
834 2013-10-25 09:48:45 <CodeShark> nodes 4 and 8 match the filter
835 2013-10-25 09:48:54 EmLeX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
836 2013-10-25 09:49:12 <BlueMatt> TD: you're upside-down, stand on your head!
837 2013-10-25 09:49:26 <TD> /o\
838 2013-10-25 09:49:38 <sipa> in any case, the low bits go first
839 2013-10-25 09:49:40 <CodeShark> ok, so we assign a 1 bit to a node if it either matches the filter or is an ancestor of a node that matches the filter?
840 2013-10-25 09:49:54 <sipa> whether you want to call that little-endian or big-endian depends on your perspective :)
841 2013-10-25 09:49:58 TheButterZone has joined
842 2013-10-25 09:50:03 <sipa> CodeShark: bingo
843 2013-10-25 09:50:09 <CodeShark> and we assign 0 to a node if its hash is included in the list but it does not match the filter?
844 2013-10-25 09:50:29 <CodeShark> (or is not a leaf)
845 2013-10-25 09:50:40 <thermoman> hi
846 2013-10-25 09:50:40 TheButterZone has left ()
847 2013-10-25 09:50:44 <sipa> ehhh yes, thought i would put it otherwise: you output a hash for every node that has bit 0, or is a leaf
848 2013-10-25 09:50:59 <TD> that's written from the perspective of an ENCODER.
849 2013-10-25 09:51:06 <TD> but codeshark is thinking from the perspective of a DECODER
850 2013-10-25 09:51:09 <sipa> oh
851 2013-10-25 09:51:14 <CodeShark> so the only way to know whether a 1 or 0 bit node is to be included is by the height?
852 2013-10-25 09:51:15 <TD> that's one reason this protocol is so confusing
853 2013-10-25 09:51:20 <TD> (apart from the LE/BE confusion)
854 2013-10-25 09:51:25 <BlueMatt> thermoman: figure out what was up?
855 2013-10-25 09:51:34 <sipa> CodeShark: yup
856 2013-10-25 09:51:41 <thermoman> CodeShark: our proxy node has "vin empty" also from external bitcoin clients
857 2013-10-25 09:51:48 <TD> the BIP is written the same way. it's explains how to encode, but leaves you on your own for decoding
858 2013-10-25 09:52:00 <TD> and then the code itself suffers the same problem. the comments are written as if encoding, even when decoding
859 2013-10-25 09:52:00 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
860 2013-10-25 09:52:02 <thermoman> BlueMatt: not yet - still investigating
861 2013-10-25 09:52:11 <CodeShark> what most confused me is "parent" vs. "ancestor"
862 2013-10-25 09:52:30 <CodeShark> for instance, I'm not sure I'd call 2 a parent of 4
863 2013-10-25 09:52:37 <sipa> i wouldn't either
864 2013-10-25 09:52:44 <sipa> is the BIP written that way?
865 2013-10-25 09:52:54 <BlueMatt> who wrote that paragraph?
866 2013-10-25 09:52:56 <BlueMatt> TD or sipa?
867 2013-10-25 09:52:57 <CodeShark> the BIP (and the comments in both bitcoind and bitcoinj) say parent
868 2013-10-25 09:52:58 <sipa> me, probably
869 2013-10-25 09:53:01 * BlueMatt gets the pitchfork ready
870 2013-10-25 09:53:15 * sipa gets pitchfork()ed
871 2013-10-25 09:53:19 Eiii has quit (!NA@unaffiliated/eiii|)
872 2013-10-25 09:53:31 <BlueMatt> also, thanks to TD and sipa for writing the BIP when I was off not working on important things
873 2013-10-25 09:53:38 <TD> well, I just copied the language in the code into the BIP
874 2013-10-25 09:53:45 * BlueMatt gets to write the code and let the smarter people write the docs
875 2013-10-25 09:53:46 <CodeShark> I figured, TD :)
876 2013-10-25 09:53:47 <TD> because frankly I didn't understand it either. so this is how we ended up in this situation
877 2013-10-25 09:53:49 <BlueMatt> wait...how did that happen
878 2013-10-25 09:53:55 <TD> basically nobody understands this except sipa
879 2013-10-25 09:54:04 <sipa> crap!
880 2013-10-25 09:54:08 * sipa gets hit by a bus
881 2013-10-25 09:54:10 <BlueMatt> bus factor == 1
882 2013-10-25 09:54:26 <sipa> i'll try to come up with a more detailed explanation
883 2013-10-25 09:54:31 <thermoman> did you hear? we have "vin empty" also from other clients
884 2013-10-25 09:54:33 <TD> well we can always just translate the code from C++ into whatever language people need, as was done for the rest of bitcoin :)
885 2013-10-25 09:54:42 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
886 2013-10-25 09:54:45 <BlueMatt> thermoman: again, unmodified node? strange.
887 2013-10-25 09:54:49 <sipa> i believe i promised that when the BIP was written, i'd rewrite that section
888 2013-10-25 09:54:52 <thermoman> yes, unmodified
889 2013-10-25 09:55:01 <sipa> thermoman: sure, we've been seeing vin empty's for a while, without explanation
890 2013-10-25 09:55:10 <BlueMatt> TD: hey, thats what bitcoinj's script engine is...hasnt failed yet
891 2013-10-25 09:55:14 <BlueMatt> oh, wait, yes it has
892 2013-10-25 09:55:18 grau has joined
893 2013-10-25 09:55:20 <TD> sipa: can i take you up on that promise? a worked example would help a lot
894 2013-10-25 09:55:29 <sipa> TD: poke me
895 2013-10-25 09:55:33 * BlueMatt shouldn't be allowed to touch code anymore...Ive only cause, what, 3 bitcoind vulns?
896 2013-10-25 09:55:34 <CodeShark> I'll put together a couple more examples and perhaps we can add these tree diagrams to the documentation
897 2013-10-25 09:55:34 <TD> sipa: also correcting the comments in the code :) where it talks about "descending" it should talk about "ascending"
898 2013-10-25 09:55:35 <sipa> (if i forget)
899 2013-10-25 09:55:37 <TD> ok
900 2013-10-25 09:56:02 <sipa> thermoman: my guess is a mapWallet[somehash] call somewhere that instanciates a empty CTransaction, which gets broadcasted
901 2013-10-25 09:56:21 <sipa> i'm sort of ignoring wallet stuff for now though, working on other things
902 2013-10-25 09:56:35 <BlueMatt> can we just remove wallet altogether and move on?
903 2013-10-25 09:56:37 <CodeShark> I'm going to try a slightly more complex example - and see if my understanding of the flag bits corresponds to it
904 2013-10-25 09:56:45 <BlueMatt> let others deal with wallet
905 2013-10-25 09:56:46 <BlueMatt> like TD
906 2013-10-25 09:57:15 <sipa> so yes, when decoding, you read a bit, and if it is either 0, or a leaf node, you read a corresponding hash
907 2013-10-25 09:57:53 <sipa> if it's a 1 and not a leaf node, you descend into its children, to compute their hash
908 2013-10-25 09:57:57 <sipa> and use that
909 2013-10-25 09:58:14 <CodeShark> so the representation tries to optimize for space rather than logic in decoding
910 2013-10-25 09:58:22 <sipa> yes, absolutely
911 2013-10-25 09:58:27 <sipa> it's designed to be very small
912 2013-10-25 09:58:32 <thermoman> can i ignore these empty vins for now and just unban the child node or is there anything to be concerned with?
913 2013-10-25 09:58:44 <BlueMatt> its just a tree traversal, a horribly undocumented tree traversal
914 2013-10-25 09:58:45 ralphtheninja has joined
915 2013-10-25 09:58:59 <BlueMatt> (and revere-confusingly documented tree traversal)
916 2013-10-25 09:59:01 <sipa> thermoman: probably yes
917 2013-10-25 09:59:28 <BlueMatt> thermoman: double-check your bin is trusted, and then just unban and have fun
918 2013-10-25 09:59:36 <sipa> CodeShark: in particular, it's designed to have near-0 overhead for a full-block match
919 2013-10-25 10:00:03 <CodeShark> sipa: I think I get it - writing another slightly more complex example now
920 2013-10-25 10:00:20 <thermoman> BlueMatt: bin?
921 2013-10-25 10:00:32 <BlueMatt> s/bin/binary you're running/
922 2013-10-25 10:00:43 <thermoman> it's self compiled from source
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936 2013-10-25 10:13:40 <tgs3> bus are so last century, in democracy we say dronn'ed
937 2013-10-25 10:13:55 pooler has joined
938 2013-10-25 10:13:56 <BlueMatt> bugs == unintended features
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951 2013-10-25 10:22:51 <dobry-den> What stops the current client from download blocks from multiple peers in parallel?
952 2013-10-25 10:25:04 <wumpus> dobry-den: knowledge of which blocks exist, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2964
953 2013-10-25 10:26:35 Thepok has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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957 2013-10-25 10:36:17 <dobry-den> oh, duh. node simply doesnt know
958 2013-10-25 10:36:18 shesek has joined
959 2013-10-25 10:38:22 <dobry-den> why cant a node grab the latest hash in the inv-vect and use it to start downloading the next chunk from another node?
960 2013-10-25 10:39:31 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
961 2013-10-25 10:41:19 <BlueMatt> dobry-den: good code?
962 2013-10-25 10:41:38 <BlueMatt> dobry-den: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2964
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974 2013-10-25 11:00:46 <feddy3> would this site be helpful to you devs? http://fetchtx.info/ ?
975 2013-10-25 11:04:06 <sipa> i doubt it, to be honest; you can just ask your own node for a transaction
976 2013-10-25 11:04:37 BGL has joined
977 2013-10-25 11:04:41 <feddy3> I was hoping the dissection display would be nice
978 2013-10-25 11:05:00 <sipa> oh, i didn't recheck it since the last time you posted it
979 2013-10-25 11:05:13 <feddy3> Been working on it a little bit
980 2013-10-25 11:05:23 <feddy3> The next step is to parse the script into a human-readable form
981 2013-10-25 11:05:37 <wumpus> looks pretty nice
982 2013-10-25 11:05:47 <feddy3> eventually, it could also verify signatures
983 2013-10-25 11:06:03 <feddy3> and adding a pushtx page would be trivial but I'm not sure I want that traffic
984 2013-10-25 11:06:38 <wumpus> I think it can be pretty useful to people trying to understand the block chain format, especially if you aadd script parsing
985 2013-10-25 11:06:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What's the txid ("edbc..." maybe?) of that broken pushdata TZ?
986 2013-10-25 11:06:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Tx*
987 2013-10-25 11:07:12 <feddy3> ebc9fa1196a59e192352d76c0f6e73167046b9d37b8302b6bb6968dfd279b767 this one?
988 2013-10-25 11:07:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes
989 2013-10-25 11:07:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Thanks
990 2013-10-25 11:07:40 <sipa> feddy3: oh, that looks really nice indeed!
991 2013-10-25 11:07:49 <feddy3> really?
992 2013-10-25 11:07:50 <sipa> sorry, previous time i looked it just showed the hex code
993 2013-10-25 11:08:01 <feddy3> sipa: yeah, last time I mentioend was probably a bit premature
994 2013-10-25 11:08:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ooh!
995 2013-10-25 11:08:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That seems like something really handy...
996 2013-10-25 11:09:05 neep3r has joined
997 2013-10-25 11:09:19 <feddy3> michagogo: especially once I finish with the script parsing, it'd be useful (I think) to analyze them and the data contained in them
998 2013-10-25 11:09:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|feddy3: FR: paste in a raw transaction to dissect
999 2013-10-25 11:09:29 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1000 2013-10-25 11:09:40 <CodeShark> sipa: a slightly more complex example: http://blockhawk.net/MerkleBlock/index2.html
1001 2013-10-25 11:09:43 <sipa> agree with michagogo|cloud, that sounds useful
1002 2013-10-25 11:10:01 <feddy3> ahh pasting shouldn't be difficult
1003 2013-10-25 11:10:10 <feddy3> all the dissection is happening in the client
1004 2013-10-25 11:10:16 <sipa> CodeShark: looks right
1005 2013-10-25 11:10:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, really?
1006 2013-10-25 11:10:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Cool
1007 2013-10-25 11:10:21 rdymac has joined
1008 2013-10-25 11:10:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Watch out for things like gmaxwell's <alert> tx
1009 2013-10-25 11:10:51 <feddy3> ahh, cool. will do
1010 2013-10-25 11:10:58 <feddy3> i gotta step afk. gym time:)
1011 2013-10-25 11:11:06 <feddy3> thanks for the feedback!
1012 2013-10-25 11:11:08 <sipa> feddy3: whatever you do, don't show decoded binary data without html quoting it
1013 2013-10-25 11:11:24 <feddy3> why?
1014 2013-10-25 11:11:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Er, <script>alert(), I mean
1015 2013-10-25 11:11:36 <feddy3> embedded images and things?
1016 2013-10-25 11:11:48 <sipa> feddy3: and javascript
1017 2013-10-25 11:11:58 <feddy3> raw tx data is never added to the document
1018 2013-10-25 11:12:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|feddy3: there's a certain transaction where until recently, if you went to the bc.i page, an alert box popped up
1019 2013-10-25 11:12:36 <CodeShark> sipa, the way I'd define the node bits then is 1 iff the node lies along a path to a matched leaf (including the leaf itself)
1020 2013-10-25 11:12:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell put JavaScript into a script, which bc.i decoded and displayed
1021 2013-10-25 11:12:47 <feddy3> haha nice
1022 2013-10-25 11:12:52 <feddy3> yeah, they show the raw tx contents
1023 2013-10-25 11:13:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Something like "if I were an attacker, you'd have lost your coins"
1024 2013-10-25 11:13:33 neep3r has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1025 2013-10-25 11:13:45 <feddy3> afk:)
1026 2013-10-25 11:14:12 <sipa> CodeShark: sounds good
1027 2013-10-25 11:14:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;Google JavaScript inside bitcoin transaction gmaxwell
1028 2013-10-25 11:14:20 <gribble> JavaScript Library to Sign Transaction - Bitcoin Forum: <https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264127.0>; 1564 - BitcoinStats: <http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/09/10>; 1568 - BitcoinStats: <http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/07/03>
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1030 2013-10-25 11:16:07 <sipa> CodeShark: and descending happens in case of a non-leaf 1 bit
1031 2013-10-25 11:16:19 <CodeShark> sipa: right
1032 2013-10-25 11:16:24 <sipa> CodeShark: and hash outputting happens in case of non-descending
1033 2013-10-25 11:16:43 <CodeShark> we keep descending until we either hit a 0 or hit a leaf
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1036 2013-10-25 11:19:19 <sipa> indeed
1037 2013-10-25 11:19:29 <CodeShark> the depth can be calculated as ceil(log_2(nTx)) - and we can optimize the implementation of this as needed
1038 2013-10-25 11:20:03 <CodeShark> although surely this calculation is not a bottleneck :P
1039 2013-10-25 11:21:17 <sipa> i think the only (and that's perhaps even trivial) optimization, is how you determine whether a node has matched leafs under it
1040 2013-10-25 11:21:17 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1041 2013-10-25 11:21:35 <sipa> in particular, don't recalculate it for every node :)
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1046 2013-10-25 11:32:55 <dobry-den> does a node only write to the addr_from host:port and not through the host:port that connected to its socket?
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1050 2013-10-25 11:40:26 <sipa> not sure what you mean?
1051 2013-10-25 11:40:35 <sipa> you're referring to the field in the version message?
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1055 2013-10-25 11:44:01 <CodeShark> time for bed - thanks for the help, sipa
1056 2013-10-25 11:44:25 ircuser-6 has joined
1057 2013-10-25 11:44:27 <CodeShark> tomorrow I'll try to finish implementing filtered block sync
1058 2013-10-25 11:46:11 wiretapped has joined
1059 2013-10-25 11:47:20 <dobry-den> sipa: I've connected to my bitcoind's socket, I write to it, but it never writes anything back
1060 2013-10-25 11:48:20 <CodeShark> dobry-den: I would recommend posting the exact raw data you're sending
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1070 2013-10-25 12:14:10 <dobry-den> Here's the hex I'm trying to send https://www.refheap.com/20165
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1076 2013-10-25 12:15:59 <sipa> dobry-den: is there any data in debug.log appearing in bitcoind when you send it?
1077 2013-10-25 12:16:04 <sipa> passing -debug may help
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1082 2013-10-25 12:21:27 <dobry-den> sipa: it reports that it accepted connection, the connection timeout
1083 2013-10-25 12:21:59 <sipa> do you have message length, checksum, magic bytes, ... right?
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1085 2013-10-25 12:22:05 <dobry-den> yes
1086 2013-10-25 12:22:39 <dobry-den> it also passes bitcoinj and bitcoin-ruby's versionmessage test suites
1087 2013-10-25 12:23:25 <dobry-den> at least parsing it. so i'm guessing im missing something obvious
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1093 2013-10-25 12:29:01 <sipa> dobry-den: i think your size is wrong
1094 2013-10-25 12:29:14 <sipa> the size doesn't include the header afaik
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1099 2013-10-25 12:34:02 <dobry-den> yeah, it's just the payload
1100 2013-10-25 12:34:09 <dobry-den> 103
1101 2013-10-25 12:36:36 <sipa> you're right
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1108 2013-10-25 12:52:27 <dobry-den> sipa: wow
1109 2013-10-25 12:52:56 <dobry-den> sipa: just had to (.flush buffer)
1110 2013-10-25 12:53:01 <dobry-den> kill me
1111 2013-10-25 12:53:09 <sipa> /kill dobry-den
1112 2013-10-25 12:53:28 <sipa> what language is that?
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1115 2013-10-25 12:53:47 <dobry-den> im writing a client with clojure
1116 2013-10-25 12:53:53 <sipa> cool
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1118 2013-10-25 12:58:43 <dobry-den> im storing the blockchain in datomic (http://www.datomic.com/) so i can query it with datalog.
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1121 2013-10-25 13:02:27 <dobry-den> it's like a temporal database that models the blockchain
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1144 2013-10-25 13:31:14 <jgarzik> TD, (re email) BitPay has a prelim server version of PP. I am working on OSX builds of Bitcoin-QT from HEAD, to enable the client side.
1145 2013-10-25 13:31:23 <TD> cool
1146 2013-10-25 13:31:26 <jgarzik> TD, people might test more, if there were semi-official test builds
1147 2013-10-25 13:31:31 <TD> yeah
1148 2013-10-25 13:31:38 <TD> we could really use automated nightlies of bitcoin-qt
1149 2013-10-25 13:32:01 <TD> how can devs access your prelim server implementation?
1150 2013-10-25 13:32:04 xiangfu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1151 2013-10-25 13:32:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: You around?
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1153 2013-10-25 13:34:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: didn't know you were a freenode staffer :-P
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1158 2013-10-25 13:41:24 <Ry4an> the automated nightlies could default to testnet perhaps
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1168 2013-10-25 13:45:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: i am
1169 2013-10-25 13:45:58 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: huh?
1170 2013-10-25 13:46:04 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: ah :)
1171 2013-10-25 13:46:20 <ecoloco> whats happend to the bitcoin rate? do you think its gonna bounce up again?
1172 2013-10-25 13:47:00 <Ry4an> ecoloco: wrong channel
1173 2013-10-25 13:47:33 <kjj> there is some natural variability around the bitcoin rate, but it averages out well in the long run. 25 per 10 minutes, on average, for the next few years
1174 2013-10-25 13:47:51 <Ry4an> kjj: :)
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1176 2013-10-25 13:47:52 <sipa> kjj: i expect he's talking about the exchange rate
1177 2013-10-25 13:48:01 <Ry4an> sipa: I expect kjj knew that and was being clever
1178 2013-10-25 13:48:25 <Ry4an> ecoloco: try #bitcoin-market if you want to talk exchange rates to other currencies
1179 2013-10-25 13:48:30 <sipa> sorry, i need to improve my reading-between-the-lines
1180 2013-10-25 13:48:33 <kjj> that is the only bitcoin rate that is on topic in this channel
1181 2013-10-25 13:48:44 <sipa> or #bitcoin-pricetalk (if that still exists)
1182 2013-10-25 13:49:27 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1183 2013-10-25 13:49:28 <ecoloco> sipa: thanks
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1185 2013-10-25 13:50:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: So I'm confused about your comment about it not being urgent to fix the disconnect block problem. The conclusion I had reached was that it could produce forks between git and 0.8.5? Where am I confused?
1186 2013-10-25 13:51:31 <sipa> gmaxwell: well people shouldn't be running git head...
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1189 2013-10-25 13:53:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: and as i understand it, it can't create forks... only cause nodes to fail starting up?
1190 2013-10-25 13:53:55 <sipa> hmm, maybe in a reorg it can cause a fork
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1197 2013-10-25 13:58:23 <thermoman> oh boy
1198 2013-10-25 13:58:24 <thermoman> http://media.coindesk.com/2013/10/human-error-bitcoin-loss.png
1199 2013-10-25 13:59:17 <lianj> ^^
1200 2013-10-25 13:59:20 <edcba> lol
1201 2013-10-25 13:59:40 <ecoloco> shit
1202 2013-10-25 13:59:44 <ecoloco> :S
1203 2013-10-25 13:59:44 <gmaxwell> How do you know that was an error and not some fruitcake intentionally giving away a bunch of coins?
1204 2013-10-25 13:59:56 <sipa> Sense?
1205 2013-10-25 14:00:16 <ecoloco> painful
1206 2013-10-25 14:00:21 <ecoloco> or what?
1207 2013-10-25 14:00:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, well shouldn't but they do. (and, scroll up a few lines... "automated nightlies" :) )
1208 2013-10-25 14:00:42 <lianj> wasn't there a case where a guy got lucky and the miner gave him like half back
1209 2013-10-25 14:00:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, I thought it could make git head refuse to reorg off a block that contains an op_return only transaction.
1210 2013-10-25 14:01:11 reizuki__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1211 2013-10-25 14:01:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: yup, that seems correct
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1214 2013-10-25 14:01:45 <gmaxwell> lianj: there have been a couple cases where large fees have been given back, and a couple cases where pools offered to give them back but no one came asking for them.
1215 2013-10-25 14:02:29 <gmaxwell> lianj: sendrawtransaction in bitcoin-qt now requires a manual override switch to send something with a fee that large.
1216 2013-10-25 14:03:04 <Apocalyptic> gmaxwell, does it in bitcoind as well ?
1217 2013-10-25 14:03:19 <gmaxwell> Apocalyptic: they're one and the same.
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1343 2013-10-25 16:45:35 <gmaxwell> Okay, I really can't believe we're back to where we were in early 2011. In #bitcoin wumpus is saying that he's uncomfortable using non-random keys in the wallet.
1344 2013-10-25 16:46:00 super3 has joined
1345 2013-10-25 16:46:05 <super3> hello
1346 2013-10-25 16:46:18 <gmaxwell> wumpus: lets move discussion into here. :)
1347 2013-10-25 16:46:32 <wumpus> yes... I admit it's not very rational though
1348 2013-10-25 16:47:06 <gmaxwell> 09:42 <@gmaxwell> wumpus: having backups that stop working by default is terrible. :)
1349 2013-10-25 16:47:09 <gmaxwell> 09:42 < wumpus> there is no way to say 'I don't want to make new addreses until I have a new safe backup'
1350 2013-10-25 16:47:12 <gmaxwell> 09:42 < wumpus> gmaxwell: exactly
1351 2013-10-25 16:47:29 <gmaxwell> So, having that control doesn't actually achieve the backups don't stop working property, however.
1352 2013-10-25 16:47:45 <kjj> I've never been comfortable using procedurally generated keys
1353 2013-10-25 16:47:50 <wumpus> but in a way I feel better if keys are not related to each other
1354 2013-10-25 16:48:06 <gmaxwell> wumpus: then you can't use our current ones either.
1355 2013-10-25 16:48:20 <wumpus> gmaxwell: sure, but it tells you to refill the keypool then make a new backup, you're sure that the most recent backup is at least valid
1356 2013-10-25 16:48:40 <gmaxwell> wumpus: All the keys in your keypool generated during the same session end up generated in an equal way to BIP32's private scheme.
1357 2013-10-25 16:48:47 <kjj> (side note, I still think that keypool refilling and wallet backups should be integrated into one function)
1358 2013-10-25 16:49:04 <gmaxwell> What I think is the superset of all behaviors is to have an "expire and backup" that replaces the master key.
1359 2013-10-25 16:49:18 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I didn't know :/
1360 2013-10-25 16:49:59 <wumpus> though that's still for one session, not for all keys
1361 2013-10-25 16:50:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: OpenSSL's random reads from the OS at startup and then all keys are generated from a random keypool using a scheme thats functionally similar to BIP32 private derrivation.
1362 2013-10-25 16:50:23 <gmaxwell> wumpus: sure, but it means e.g. all 100 of your initial keys.
1363 2013-10-25 16:50:39 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it doesn't add in randomness from the os later on?
1364 2013-10-25 16:51:20 <wumpus> ok that makes sense as they're generated very closely together
1365 2013-10-25 16:51:49 <gmaxwell> wumpus: No. Though on some systems (IIRC) we do infrequently add some timing randomness. There used to be more in the GUI version, but most of it got removed ~with the change to QT.
1366 2013-10-25 16:52:28 <wumpus> hmm, I suppose adding randomness from the OS random number generator would be better
1367 2013-10-25 16:52:32 wbill has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1368 2013-10-25 16:52:55 <kjj> I've been using rdrand to generate my random numbers, but now I'm a bit worried about it, after the NSA blowup.
1369 2013-10-25 16:54:05 <gmaxwell> wumpus: In any case, the way BIP32 private derrivation works, the keys are only related through SHA512 HMAC with a large secret value. If SHA2 is weak enough that you could do weird things with the relationship of the keys, then our signing is almost certantly insecure in any case (as we're using SHA2^2 in the signing)
1370 2013-10-25 16:55:40 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes that sounds secure enough, especially as derivation happens with the private keys, so someone seeing the public keys would not be able to detect any regularity even in the oft chance someone would be able to see the regularity in the private keys
1371 2013-10-25 16:55:50 <gmaxwell> I don't mind having a totally random option, but I really can't think of any situation where the backup issues are so well resolved that it isn't an unacceptable risk. The notion of unstealing could be better accomplished with a expire-and-backup and/or a every-n-expire-and-backup.
1372 2013-10-25 16:56:37 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, I share having "irrational" concerns too, which is why I'm glad we put the private derivation in BIP32.
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1374 2013-10-25 16:57:37 <gmaxwell> (every-n-expire-and-backup meaning that it's a backup function, but every N times you use it, or every N months, or whatever, it adds a new master key to be used from that point forward prior to doing the backup)
1375 2013-10-25 16:58:06 <gmaxwell> (er, adds a new one which will be used at the next time, so you effectively have a master key pool)
1376 2013-10-25 16:58:12 <kjj> I don't see any point in every-n-expire
1377 2013-10-25 16:58:24 <wumpus> but it indeed shouldn't overshadow the danger of the current way, key loss is just as bad as stealing (maybe even worse) se we should move to something that's safer asap
1378 2013-10-25 16:58:48 <gmaxwell> kjj: Unstealing. Because sometimes backups are stolen. Good key management does have you expire them from time to time.
1379 2013-10-25 16:59:02 <gmaxwell> kjj: every-n-expire basically gives you keypooling for master keys.
1380 2013-10-25 16:59:03 <kjj> yeah, just realized that as I was thinking about it
1381 2013-10-25 16:59:16 <jgarzik> every month
1382 2013-10-25 16:59:27 <jgarzik> though I share the same irrational concerns. I like unrelated keys.
1383 2013-10-25 16:59:29 <kjj> I've got drives floating around with old crap all over them.
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1385 2013-10-25 16:59:33 <gmaxwell> yea, every month sounds fine to me, with a 1 month lag.
1386 2013-10-25 16:59:56 <kjj> but in that case, the client should rotate funds forward too, not just the keys
1387 2013-10-25 17:00:12 <jgarzik> there are several cases where we should sweep funds, but don't
1388 2013-10-25 17:00:13 <kjj> which is a much harder problem
1389 2013-10-25 17:00:16 <jgarzik> speaking of
1390 2013-10-25 17:00:20 <gmaxwell> kjj: yea, we should also have a "Oh shit I'm compromised" button, that does an expire and backup and then moves the funds forward.
1391 2013-10-25 17:00:25 <jgarzik> import, most notably
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1393 2013-10-25 17:01:20 <kjj> for the record, I fully support making procedural key sequences the default. It is the right thing for almost everyone, and the few exceptions can easily generate their own keys and import them (or use a provided random keygen feature)
1394 2013-10-25 17:02:00 <kjj> I just don't like it for me personally, for reasons that I fully accept are irrational.
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1396 2013-10-25 17:02:49 <gmaxwell> Backup problems are a much bigger problem than theft, as observed in practice. And yea, sure, I'm totally happy to have a always-random knob for people who believe they can handle the backup risk. Though if we're going to do that we really should add OS randomness to the keypool between every key.
1397 2013-10-25 17:02:59 <sipa> a button "reseed wallet" sounds fair to me, prompting to create a backup at the same time
1398 2013-10-25 17:03:13 <gmaxwell> And really if we're being that kind of paranoid we should assume the OS randomness is compromised and have an integrated game of pong to get randomness from the user. :P
1399 2013-10-25 17:03:44 <kjj> ugh. how many bits could you reasonably extract from pong? I bet it would take HOURS to get a decent key
1400 2013-10-25 17:04:03 <gmaxwell> kjj: No way. lots of bits from timing.
1401 2013-10-25 17:04:24 <kjj> I bet you could predict most of that timing
1402 2013-10-25 17:04:57 <kjj> most of the real entropy would be in the hpos of the player paddle at the moment of impact, the middle-to-low bits
1403 2013-10-25 17:05:03 <kjj> er, vpos
1404 2013-10-25 17:05:05 <gmaxwell> kjj: you do, the way to get randomness from such a thing is you predict the next value, and then the randomness is the least significant bits of the residue against the prediction.
1405 2013-10-25 17:05:33 <gmaxwell> (But I'm mostly kidding about pong specifically)
1406 2013-10-25 17:06:26 <kjj> good thought exercise though. I wouldn't trust the speed of the move (intermediate vpos values) because that would mostly involve the input subsystem timing, response rate of the controller, etc.
1407 2013-10-25 17:06:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: so I think having an automatic reseed that works like "if you ask for a backup, and it's been a month since the last reseed, create a new master key but do not use it until at least 1 month and 1 additional backup have passed"
1408 2013-10-25 17:07:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: that would result in reasonably good key management.
1409 2013-10-25 17:07:15 <kjj> jgarzik fall asleep typing, or is there a book coming shortly?
1410 2013-10-25 17:07:49 <jgarzik> kjj, ?
1411 2013-10-25 17:07:56 <jgarzik> kjj, maybe my Yoda-speak was misparsed
1412 2013-10-25 17:08:04 <kjj> gmaxwell: very paranoid of you to require x>2 backups before actually using a key
1413 2013-10-25 17:08:48 <gmaxwell> kjj: that just requires two. One is made at the time its created, and at least one later before its used.
1414 2013-10-25 17:08:56 <kjj> jgarzik: ahh, ok. I thought that was the "get ready, I have a big thought coming out" notice.
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1416 2013-10-25 17:09:33 <kjj> you could have a seedpool, and use the one with the most backups recorded
1417 2013-10-25 17:09:49 <gmaxwell> kjj: in any case, there is probably some kind of game which would extract maximal entropy from the user.
1418 2013-10-25 17:10:01 <gmaxwell> kjj: then you'd always use the oldest. :)
1419 2013-10-25 17:10:45 <gmaxwell> kjj: I just used pong as an example because its simple to implement. :P
1420 2013-10-25 17:10:46 <kjj> yeah, it would always be the oldest, unless something odd happened, like using pywallet to transport it, with metadata, into the file
1421 2013-10-25 17:11:30 <gmaxwell> kjj: yea, good key management says that users should actually be rotating out their master keys from time to time, but backup reliablity is more important.
1422 2013-10-25 17:11:47 <kjj> the problem here is that we've sorta recreated the problem we set out to solve, namely the need to regularly backup your wallet
1423 2013-10-25 17:12:09 <gmaxwell> kjj: the difference is that if you don't backup your wallet, nothing awful happens except your key management becomes more poor.
1424 2013-10-25 17:12:14 <gmaxwell> vs you lose all your funds.
1425 2013-10-25 17:12:45 <kjj> agreed, a better outcome. but is it possible to do better?
1426 2013-10-25 17:12:55 <gmaxwell> and if you only ever back it up once, then you get the behavior that people who want to only ever back it up once want.
1427 2013-10-25 17:13:36 <kjj> does cross-platform printing still suck?
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1430 2013-10-25 17:15:15 bitRipperX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1432 2013-10-25 17:20:43 <jgarzik> kjj, probably
1433 2013-10-25 17:21:00 patcon has joined
1434 2013-10-25 17:21:14 <kjj> export to paper would be a great feature to have, but a shitty one to make
1435 2013-10-25 17:21:52 <jgarzik> kjj, ironically, PDF is making life easier
1436 2013-10-25 17:21:56 [\\\]_z has joined
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1438 2013-10-25 17:22:20 <jgarzik> kjj, proprietary printing protocols are rapidly melting away (ignoring HP, which always loves to get its proprietary crap in)
1439 2013-10-25 17:22:43 <jgarzik> most printers are now implementing an http-like protocol that's pretty sane and easy
1440 2013-10-25 17:22:50 <kjj> did you see the whining about adding SSL to the bitcoin client? can you imagine the bitching if we added a PDF library too?
1441 2013-10-25 17:23:21 FluffyBunny has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1443 2013-10-25 17:24:50 FluffyBunny has joined
1444 2013-10-25 17:25:41 <jgarzik> kjj, note that since RPC already requires SSL, too, it is already there anyway ;p
1445 2013-10-25 17:27:57 <wumpus> afaik qt supports printing
1446 2013-10-25 17:28:16 <kjj> I don't see why you would want to bring logic into this debate
1447 2013-10-25 17:28:29 <wumpus> hehe
1448 2013-10-25 17:30:18 jevin has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
1449 2013-10-25 17:33:33 <wumpus> it supports cross platform printing (see http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5.0/qtprintsupport/qtprintsupport-index.html) so it would be possible to make export to paper, would also be useful for the encryption master key
1450 2013-10-25 17:33:45 super3 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1451 2013-10-25 17:33:59 super3 has joined
1452 2013-10-25 17:35:03 <wumpus> cross platform scanning on the other hand...
1453 2013-10-25 17:35:08 agricocb has joined
1454 2013-10-25 17:37:23 casascius has joined
1455 2013-10-25 17:37:59 <super3> quick pull? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3138
1456 2013-10-25 17:38:07 <casascius> Hello, wondering if I can get some help with bitcoin-development mailing list: I am not sure if what I send to it appears, and whether I'm doing something wrong.
1457 2013-10-25 17:39:24 <kjj> you check the archive?
1458 2013-10-25 17:39:38 <casascius> I just sent a message to the list via bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net from an address where I regularly receive things. I got nothing back, not even a failure message, and the archive doesn't show my message.
1459 2013-10-25 17:39:43 <kjj> also, is your sending address exactly equal to your subscription address?
1460 2013-10-25 17:39:59 <sipa> casascius: maybe it just lags
1461 2013-10-25 17:40:06 <casascius> Oddly, I've had the belief that I've had my own messages acknowledged on the list before, nevertheless, can't find them.
1462 2013-10-25 17:40:08 <kjj> yeah, give it time if you just did it
1463 2013-10-25 17:40:13 <sipa> i haven't received anything in any case
1464 2013-10-25 17:40:43 Guest26529 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1465 2013-10-25 17:44:01 <casascius> As I review past messages I've sent, it looks like none of them have made it into the archive, and I got replies apparently because I had cc'd others who perhaps received the e-mail directly.
1466 2013-10-25 17:44:18 <casascius> My e-mail on sourceforge.net exactly equals the e-mail I'm sending from, including capitalization.
1467 2013-10-25 17:44:24 Liquid has joined
1468 2013-10-25 17:44:48 Liquid is now known as Guest33768
1469 2013-10-25 17:45:23 <jgarzik> casascius, SF does that to me, too
1470 2013-10-25 17:45:24 <casascius> It looks as though when I send something, it totally disappears unacknowledged. Now it makes sense why I'm seeing people want to reuse BIP 0038 for something else: it appears nothing I've (thought I've) said about it on the list has been heard
1471 2013-10-25 17:45:25 <kjj> I thought the mlm software sent a bounce message if it received mail, but refused to forward it because the sender wasn't signed up
1472 2013-10-25 17:45:28 <jgarzik> casascius, our email is hosted @ google
1473 2013-10-25 17:45:53 quijibo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1474 2013-10-25 17:46:10 <casascius> jgarzik, perhaps i'd be better off using a gmail account? (perhaps sourceforge replies with an error and it gets swallowed by spamwall on corporate email?)
1475 2013-10-25 17:46:45 <sipa> casascius: did you ever get bip38 assigned?
1476 2013-10-25 17:46:54 <casascius> sipa: by Amir Taaki on 11/22/2012
1477 2013-10-25 17:47:07 <sipa> ah
1478 2013-10-25 17:47:22 <jakov> i was actually working on bip38
1479 2013-10-25 17:47:28 <dobry-den> How come var-int encodes 8bits only for values <0xfd instead of <=0xff? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer
1480 2013-10-25 17:47:34 <jakov> i had no idea about it not being standard
1481 2013-10-25 17:47:35 jevin has joined
1482 2013-10-25 17:47:42 <jakov> until today on irc
1483 2013-10-25 17:47:46 <kjj> dobry-den: the other values are used as markers for longer values
1484 2013-10-25 17:47:52 <sipa> well standard doesn't mean normative
1485 2013-10-25 17:47:55 <jakov> searching the web didnt bring up anything, i just thought people quietly abandoned it
1486 2013-10-25 17:48:01 <dobry-den> kjj: haha, of course...
1487 2013-10-25 17:48:16 <dobry-den> kjj: thanks
1488 2013-10-25 17:48:33 <jakov> casascius: what did you say, roughly, about bip38 on the mailing lists?
1489 2013-10-25 17:48:44 <jakov> "its wrong dont use it"
1490 2013-10-25 17:48:49 <sipa> jakov: wait, you wanted number 38 for something else, or you wanted to work on bip38 as published on the wiki?
1491 2013-10-25 17:49:02 <jakov> i wanted to work on the published one
1492 2013-10-25 17:49:06 <gmaxwell> casascius: HI!
1493 2013-10-25 17:49:09 <casascius> about BIP 38, I wanted to say "It's live, people use it, it deserves discussion and support"
1494 2013-10-25 17:49:21 <casascius> gmaxwell: hey there!
1495 2013-10-25 17:49:52 <casascius> To the extent it hasn't been discussed on the list: this may be correct, if e-mail I've sent "to the list" as well as "to others" only made it to the others and not the list itself
1496 2013-10-25 17:50:14 <sipa> casascius: il don't have a single email from you
1497 2013-10-25 17:50:17 <jakov> casascius: it seems you're meant to do more than just create a page on the wiki about it
1498 2013-10-25 17:50:21 <sipa> except for coins i ordered
1499 2013-10-25 17:50:21 <gmaxwell> casascius: Obviously I had no idea that you had that number assigned, as it was never discussed on the list and genjix never updated the assignment, it had infact been reassigned to other things twice. :(
1500 2013-10-25 17:50:32 <jakov> bip38 doesnt appear on the list of bips
1501 2013-10-25 17:50:46 <casascius> OK, I just updated my sourceforge account to use my gmail instead of my corporate mail
1502 2013-10-25 17:50:54 <casascius> And resent something I had written about bip38
1503 2013-10-25 17:51:09 <gmaxwell> casascius: and I have concerns with the design when I finally did see it which didn't look like they were ever going to get addressed. :(
1504 2013-10-25 17:51:50 <casascius> gmaxwell: where can i look to see where you raised them? (assuming you raised them somewhere I can look)
1505 2013-10-25 17:51:56 maaku has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1506 2013-10-25 17:52:12 <gmaxwell> casascius: In any case, I nuked the page not to assign it to something else, but to remove the mistaken impression that this was an accepted BIP that anyone should be deploying.
1507 2013-10-25 17:53:07 <kjj> where is the user control panel for the mailing list?
1508 2013-10-25 17:54:18 <casascius> Do I need to be granted permission to post to the mailing list? (I thought subscribing to it equated to permission)
1509 2013-10-25 17:54:50 <kjj> never mind, found it buried on the admin page
1510 2013-10-25 17:55:01 maaku has joined
1511 2013-10-25 17:55:16 <gmaxwell> casascius: I raised them to JP in his proposal to pick up the effort for BIP32 private keys, which was based on your design https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258678.0 (and which I assumed would largely replace your design with something publically discussed)
1512 2013-10-25 17:55:22 <gmaxwell> casascius: subscribing is permission
1513 2013-10-25 17:55:25 maaku is now known as Guest2103
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1517 2013-10-25 17:57:06 <jgarzik> casascius, no need for permission, just subscribe
1518 2013-10-25 17:58:00 <gmaxwell> casascius: It was also the case that I believed you previously just created BIPs without any public discussion or announcement that I was aware of, e.g. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIGEX_DRAFT_BIP was originally at BIP_022
1519 2013-10-25 17:58:22 <gmaxwell> casascius: so it wasn't hard to believe you'd done it again when I found content at BIP_038. :)
1520 2013-10-25 17:59:04 <gmaxwell> Bummer that your posts weren't coming through on the list.
1521 2013-10-25 17:59:06 <casascius> gmaxwell: that's a fair assessment, and no offense taken in recognition of that
1522 2013-10-25 17:59:47 Grouver has joined
1523 2013-10-25 17:59:54 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1524 2013-10-25 18:00:12 <casascius> I suppose that's true, because I just mistakenly assumed that very few were interested in what I was bringing up
1525 2013-10-25 18:00:35 <gmaxwell> casascius: I hope none is taken at me moving out BIP_038. I wish I'd done that previously when I first noticed it there, I didn't because I thought I should find out wtf happened and then never did. Apparently moving it cause us to figure out wtf happened fast, at least.
1526 2013-10-25 18:01:03 <gmaxwell> casascius: I would totally have responded to this if it hit the list. :(
1527 2013-10-25 18:01:13 <casascius> gmaxwell: none taken, the action looks reasonable given your perspective
1528 2013-10-25 18:01:14 TheLordOfTime has quit (Changing host)
1529 2013-10-25 18:01:14 TheLordOfTime has joined
1530 2013-10-25 18:01:33 <petertodd> jgarzik: speaking of bips, so do you think the git repo I made would be what should go in bitcoin/bips.git?
1531 2013-10-25 18:01:55 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1532 2013-10-25 18:02:02 <casascius> gmaxwell: Even if determined that the proposal has issues and would be better redone, I would suggest the number stay, given that BIP 38 is how the encoding scheme is colloquially referred to anyway. (even if rejected, abandoned, whatever)
1533 2013-10-25 18:02:31 patcon has joined
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1535 2013-10-25 18:03:52 sustrik has quit (Ping timeout: 253 seconds)
1536 2013-10-25 18:04:07 <kjj> LOL. my procmail scripts are from 2004. hope I remember how to edit them
1537 2013-10-25 18:04:39 prophet10x has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1538 2013-10-25 18:04:54 [\\\]_z has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1539 2013-10-25 18:05:22 reizuki__ has joined
1540 2013-10-25 18:05:43 <feddy3> anyone got a txid of a m-of-n multisig transaction i can borrow?
1541 2013-10-25 18:06:09 Luna has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1542 2013-10-25 18:06:23 <Ry4an> procmail++
1543 2013-10-25 18:06:29 <kjj> look for address 35nGJpcQr4pYVyFVR3BPbdaWUSk6NBryUD
1544 2013-10-25 18:07:02 Luna has joined
1545 2013-10-25 18:07:04 <jakov> casascius: have you sent your emails yet? im just wondering since the sourceforge mailing list page confuses me
1546 2013-10-25 18:07:20 Anduck has joined
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1548 2013-10-25 18:07:20 Anduck has joined
1549 2013-10-25 18:07:24 <sipa> i still don
1550 2013-10-25 18:07:25 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1551 2013-10-25 18:07:28 <sipa> i still don't see any
1552 2013-10-25 18:07:38 <casascius> jakov: yeah I sent something from gmail maybe 10-15min ago
1553 2013-10-25 18:08:22 <jgarzik> petertodd, something like it, yes. Need to work out editors and things with gmaxwell.
1554 2013-10-25 18:08:23 nomailing has joined
1555 2013-10-25 18:08:40 <jgarzik> petertodd, gmaxwell: BIPS should be in a git repo, but did not want to auto-volunteer greg for a bunch more work ;p
1556 2013-10-25 18:08:48 prophet10x has joined
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1561 2013-10-25 18:12:06 <petertodd> jgarzik: cool, so I can assume the repository itself will be used as the base?
1562 2013-10-25 18:13:08 <jgarzik> petertodd, I don't want to say for certain without further discussion... "I hope so"
1563 2013-10-25 18:13:21 <sipa> it certainly would seem like a win
1564 2013-10-25 18:14:03 <petertodd> jgarzik: ha, good enough. :) I'll throw up a NODE_BLOOM bip as a pull-req to my own repo :P
1565 2013-10-25 18:14:16 * petertodd wonders if github can even do that
1566 2013-10-25 18:14:20 <sipa> but we need sufficient automation in place to be sure the wiki view (or whatever canonical human-readable form is used) doesn't get out-of-sync with github
1567 2013-10-25 18:14:40 * jgarzik volunteers. I've always wanted to write a wikibot.
1568 2013-10-25 18:14:42 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, I'm thinking actually that github's page rendering re: mediawiki is good enough
1569 2013-10-25 18:14:52 <jgarzik> (but anyone else is willing to steal the task, if highly motivated)
1570 2013-10-25 18:15:28 * jgarzik agrees with gmaxwell, that drafts should not receive BIP numbers automatically
1571 2013-10-25 18:15:39 Lekane has joined
1572 2013-10-25 18:15:43 <jgarzik> don't want to lead to user confusion and premature endorsements
1573 2013-10-25 18:16:11 sustrik has joined
1574 2013-10-25 18:16:19 <petertodd> sipa: like, we tell people "go look at the repo on github" when they want to just read bips
1575 2013-10-25 18:16:37 bbrian has joined
1576 2013-10-25 18:19:53 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, people cloning that repo to write thier bips drafts should understand they might not end up submitting them that way
1577 2013-10-25 18:20:18 <jgarzik> petertodd, for the moment, it is important to preserve wiki BIP links
1578 2013-10-25 18:20:31 Lekane has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1579 2013-10-25 18:20:49 Lekane has joined
1580 2013-10-25 18:20:51 darkFun has joined
1581 2013-10-25 18:21:11 <petertodd> jgarzik: well, I was thinking change the wiki BIP links to all say "Moved to github/bitcoin/bip.wiki/etc etc/BIP-foo.mediaWiki" so they're a direct link to the readable version on github.
1582 2013-10-25 18:21:14 darkFun has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1583 2013-10-25 18:21:43 melvster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1584 2013-10-25 18:21:53 <sipa> or do some fancy iframe-include :p
1585 2013-10-25 18:22:30 <petertodd> for instance: https://github.com/petertodd/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki
1586 2013-10-25 18:23:08 <sipa> is that a byte-for-byte copy of the bip data?
1587 2013-10-25 18:23:11 grau_ has joined
1588 2013-10-25 18:23:17 <sipa> *wiki
1589 2013-10-25 18:23:38 melvster has joined
1590 2013-10-25 18:24:18 grau has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1591 2013-10-25 18:24:43 <casascius> jakov: still nothing sending from my gmail to bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net after changing my sourceforge email to gmail
1592 2013-10-25 18:24:58 bambeleme has joined
1593 2013-10-25 18:25:09 <sipa> very strange
1594 2013-10-25 18:25:12 <jakov> i dont see anything new refreshing the archive page on sourceforge
1595 2013-10-25 18:25:15 <sipa> sourceforge must really hate you
1596 2013-10-25 18:26:13 BenderCoin has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1597 2013-10-25 18:26:23 <jakov> incidently, why do you think the idea of twofactor paper wallets doesnt seemed to have taken off?
1598 2013-10-25 18:26:24 <petertodd> sipa: yup, see the git history for notes on that
1599 2013-10-25 18:26:59 <petertodd> sipa: some edits for formatting, but I made a byte-for-byte commit initially for every page
1600 2013-10-25 18:27:25 sustrik has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1601 2013-10-25 18:27:55 <casascius> jakov: i'm not sure that it hasn't, lots of people just print their paper wallets without saying anything. the thing people seem to talk about more is using bip38 as a sort of hybrid escrow-like scheme, where a buyer withholds the passphrase until satisfied by seller.
1602 2013-10-25 18:28:34 darkFun has joined
1603 2013-10-25 18:28:55 <casascius> I've sold quite a few savings bars with bip38 passphrases, people seem to understand it...also have sold quite a few gold coins (double digits) protected via bip38
1604 2013-10-25 18:29:01 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1605 2013-10-25 18:29:19 <sipa> casascius: i wonder, do you have any statistics on how much of your sold coins/... have been redeemed?
1606 2013-10-25 18:29:27 bambeleme has quit (Client Quit)
1607 2013-10-25 18:29:35 <jakov> maybe people dont think of printers storing their paper wallets internally
1608 2013-10-25 18:30:16 <sipa> i haven't redeemed any of mine TBH, and i expect many people to think that way
1609 2013-10-25 18:30:16 darkFun has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1610 2013-10-25 18:30:16 <casascius> sipa: two sites have been tracking, http://casascius.uberbills.com and http://casascius.appspot.com (though they are 3rd party sites that aren't consistently updated, they give a good feel for the numbers)
1611 2013-10-25 18:30:44 <casascius> Bip38 2-factor casascius coins also aren't tracked because the bitcoin address isn't known until the coin is ordered, and I don't publish the addresses of 2factor items
1612 2013-10-25 18:30:54 <jgarzik> heh printer storage
1613 2013-10-25 18:31:39 <jakov> well thats one use of twofactor paper wallets, you can print them out on an untrusted printer
1614 2013-10-25 18:31:46 <casascius> jakov: bip38 protects against printer storage and compromised machines... if user uses mobile app or 2nd computer to create the passphrase / 1st factor, the actual private keys aren't knowable by whatever prodoces the paper wallets themselves, including the printer
1615 2013-10-25 18:31:46 <ecoloco> Any miner who can confirm my transaction? (it has stuck)
1616 2013-10-25 18:31:59 <sipa> ecoloco: how long has it been?
1617 2013-10-25 18:32:06 <casascius> jakov: sounds like we're on the smae page
1618 2013-10-25 18:32:30 <jakov> we're not the only ones, iv found a few forum threads every few months asking about encrypted paper wallets
1619 2013-10-25 18:32:36 <sipa> casascius: still a fair number redeemed
1620 2013-10-25 18:32:44 <jakov> usually they get linked to your bounty, with the comment "it should be ready in a few weeks"
1621 2013-10-25 18:33:11 _ingsoc has joined
1622 2013-10-25 18:33:12 <jakov> i guess they just download the bitaddress-bip38.org and use it anyway
1623 2013-10-25 18:33:22 <casascius> jakov: what item isn't ready?
1624 2013-10-25 18:33:31 <ecoloco> sipa:
1625 2013-10-25 18:33:31 <ecoloco> I chose "Normal - Follow fee policy proposed by mainline Bitcoin client. Community." But it include no transaction fee, why? I'm afraid it will get stuck far ahead
1626 2013-10-25 18:33:44 <sipa> ecoloco: you haven't answered my question
1627 2013-10-25 18:33:54 <jakov> the bounty to make bitaddress.org also generate bip38 paper wallets, it was uploaded with the comment that it needs more testing and looking over
1628 2013-10-25 18:34:09 <casascius> jakov: it looks like pointbiz posted that on bitaddress.org within the last 24 hours
1629 2013-10-25 18:34:09 robocoin_ is now known as robocoin
1630 2013-10-25 18:34:20 <ecoloco> sipa: 10-20 min
1631 2013-10-25 18:34:26 <sipa> ;;tslb
1632 2013-10-25 18:34:28 <gribble> Time since last block: 12 minutes and 43 seconds
1633 2013-10-25 18:34:44 <sipa> there has just been a single block since then i assume; have some patience
1634 2013-10-25 18:35:03 <jakov> casascius: i just went to bitaddress.org its the same as before, did i misunderstand what you said?
1635 2013-10-25 18:35:03 themsay has joined
1636 2013-10-25 18:35:12 <casascius> bitaddress.org now shows an option to generate bip38 paper wallets under its Advanced Options tab
1637 2013-10-25 18:35:34 <casascius> jakov: version history shows version 2.5.1 posted 2013-10-24
1638 2013-10-25 18:35:40 <ecoloco> sipa: okay
1639 2013-10-25 18:35:42 <jakov> goodness how long ahs that been there
1640 2013-10-25 18:35:50 <casascius> < 24 hours
1641 2013-10-25 18:35:50 <ecoloco> ;;tslb
1642 2013-10-25 18:35:54 <gribble> Time since last block: 1 minute and 1 second
1643 2013-10-25 18:36:16 darkFun has joined
1644 2013-10-25 18:36:22 <jakov> you're right, the copy i downloaded a few days ago doesnt have it
1645 2013-10-25 18:36:29 <jakov> well im happier i guess, i dont need to code my own
1646 2013-10-25 18:36:40 <jakov> well i didnt need to anyway, i was just interested
1647 2013-10-25 18:38:22 darkFun has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1648 2013-10-25 18:38:28 Lekane has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1649 2013-10-25 18:39:56 <ecoloco> ;;tslb
1650 2013-10-25 18:39:59 <gribble> Time since last block: 5 minutes and 6 seconds
1651 2013-10-25 18:40:07 darkFun has joined
1652 2013-10-25 18:40:53 darkFun has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1653 2013-10-25 18:42:32 darkFun has joined
1654 2013-10-25 18:43:18 <ecoloco> ;;tslb
1655 2013-10-25 18:43:20 <gribble> Time since last block: 1 minute and 35 seconds
1656 2013-10-25 18:43:52 ecoloco has quit ()
1657 2013-10-25 18:44:38 <jakov> casascius: that page doesnt yet have a way to decrypt the same paper wallet
1658 2013-10-25 18:44:51 <jakov> although an example posted in your bounty thread does
1659 2013-10-25 18:45:17 <casascius> jakov: it's in "Wallet Details", it auto-prompts you for the decryption password when it detects it's a bip38 key
1660 2013-10-25 18:45:42 <jakov> i must've copied it wrong before
1661 2013-10-25 18:45:46 <jakov> : )
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1663 2013-10-25 18:46:46 owowo has joined
1664 2013-10-25 18:46:54 <casascius> Created a new sourceforge account just to see if that works (my old one is 4 or 5 years old)
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1666 2013-10-25 18:50:22 roconnor has joined
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1669 2013-10-25 18:52:02 MC1984 has joined
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1671 2013-10-25 18:53:48 <casascius> eureka, it now works with a brand new sourceforge account
1672 2013-10-25 18:54:18 <jakov> and it appeared in the archive
1673 2013-10-25 18:54:24 <petertodd> https://blockchain.info/tx/a12f2d8cbd7f6a1f88fbf34553d9d67a51877069273b46b4fd0dcde887b2cac1 <- I suspect the FBI doesn't understand change addresses... They've been sending bitcoins apparently seized from the silk road to their safekeeping address in 324BTC chunks - I suspect in the hope that they don't want any accidents. But of course any "accident" would destroy the whole amount due to change...
1674 2013-10-25 18:54:28 <casascius> all in under 60 seconds no less
1675 2013-10-25 18:54:40 <casascius> my guess is 324 = FBI (telephone keypad)
1676 2013-10-25 18:54:52 <casascius> it's their graffiti
1677 2013-10-25 18:54:52 <petertodd> ha, hilarious.
1678 2013-10-25 18:55:39 <petertodd> I can just picture some wide-eyed agent loading up the wallet in Bitcoin-QT surrounded by other agents video-taping the process...
1679 2013-10-25 18:55:50 <petertodd> They sent it all to a standard address too, no multisig!
1680 2013-10-25 18:56:14 <casascius> The least they could have done is used bip38 to make it a two-factor custody arrangement ;)
1681 2013-10-25 18:56:20 <sipa> casascius: you mail arrived
1682 2013-10-25 18:56:58 <casascius> sipa: sweet, thanks for the confirmation
1683 2013-10-25 18:57:28 newbie has joined
1684 2013-10-25 18:57:28 <petertodd> casascius: indeed, I'd love to find out what procedure they used to generate that deposit address.
1685 2013-10-25 18:57:34 <jgarzik> That's going to be automated in the future -- bitcoin seizures will necessarily sweep funds immediately, just like malware stealers today.
1686 2013-10-25 18:57:52 newbie is now known as Guest84005
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1690 2013-10-25 18:58:33 <petertodd> jgarzik: so that's going to be a feature in v1.0 right?
1691 2013-10-25 18:58:34 * petertodd ducks
1692 2013-10-25 18:58:51 * jgarzik just mentioned sweeping funds in scrollback...
1693 2013-10-25 18:58:55 * petertodd wonders if it was generated on blockchain.info
1694 2013-10-25 18:59:37 <petertodd> jgarzik: no, I mean, a government controlled alert key to tell wallet software the bitcoins have been seized and they should send them to the seizure address :P
1695 2013-10-25 19:00:21 [\\\] has joined
1696 2013-10-25 19:00:25 <jgarzik> new RPC 'sendtofbi'
1697 2013-10-25 19:00:34 <kjj> heh. if such a thing would be merged in, I imagine that a couple hundred people would be willing to write it
1698 2013-10-25 19:00:36 <sipa> sendtotla is more generic
1699 2013-10-25 19:00:44 <jgarzik> good point
1700 2013-10-25 19:00:46 <sipa> it also supports nsa and cia
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1702 2013-10-25 19:01:17 <jgarzik> no need to send to NSA, they already control ECDSA
1703 2013-10-25 19:01:45 [\\\]_q has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1704 2013-10-25 19:03:05 <jgarzik> I guess that would be a "front door" not a backdoor
1705 2013-10-25 19:03:55 bertani has joined
1706 2013-10-25 19:04:08 <sipa> jgarzik: defense in depth
1707 2013-10-25 19:04:19 <sipa> or rather offense, in this case
1708 2013-10-25 19:04:30 <bertani> hi *. Is it possible for pools to set a share diff below 1?
1709 2013-10-25 19:04:52 <sipa> yup
1710 2013-10-25 19:04:57 <petertodd> bertani: in theory, yes, but no miner implementations support that
1711 2013-10-25 19:05:01 <sipa> but i don't know how much software supports it
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1719 2013-10-25 19:08:34 <bertani> hi *. Is it possible for pools to set a share diff below 1?
1720 2013-10-25 19:08:42 Luke-Jr has joined
1721 2013-10-25 19:08:58 <kjj> glitch in the matrix
1722 2013-10-25 19:09:00 <sipa> we just answered that, bertani
1723 2013-10-25 19:09:21 <bertani> sipa: connection drop, sorry. Is there any log?
1724 2013-10-25 19:09:30 <Ry4an> <sipa> yup
1725 2013-10-25 19:09:30 <Ry4an> <petertodd> bertani: in theory, yes, but no miner implementations support that
1726 2013-10-25 19:09:31 <sipa> 21:02:36 < sipa> yup
1727 2013-10-25 19:09:31 <sipa> 21:02:41 < petertodd> bertani: in theory, yes, but no miner implementations support that
1728 2013-10-25 19:09:33 <Ry4an> <sipa> but i don't know how much software supports it
1729 2013-10-25 19:09:34 <sipa> 21:02:45 < sipa> but i don't know how much software supports it
1730 2013-10-25 19:09:36 * Ry4an wins!
1731 2013-10-25 19:09:40 * sipa loses
1732 2013-10-25 19:09:50 markus__ has joined
1733 2013-10-25 19:10:14 <bertani> ok ty, so I'll have to patch a minr
1734 2013-10-25 19:10:16 <bertani> *miner
1735 2013-10-25 19:10:21 <sipa> why?
1736 2013-10-25 19:10:28 <kjj> hang on, why do you want a subzero diff?
1737 2013-10-25 19:10:35 <bertani> sub-1
1738 2013-10-25 19:10:35 <sipa> subone
1739 2013-10-25 19:10:44 <kjj> er, yeah. subunity
1740 2013-10-25 19:10:56 * Luke-Jr asks with kjj
1741 2013-10-25 19:10:58 <bertani> just doin' some tests
1742 2013-10-25 19:12:03 <Luke-Jr> bertani: most *hardware* won't support it
1743 2013-10-25 19:12:22 <bertani> Luke-Jr: I see, this isn't my case, thank you for the information anyway
1744 2013-10-25 19:13:48 Zoop_ has joined
1745 2013-10-25 19:16:55 <feddy3> sipa: I've updated fetchtx.info so that 1) you can paste your own tx data, and 2) it has "basic" script parsing
1746 2013-10-25 19:17:14 bertani has quit (Quit: leaving)
1747 2013-10-25 19:21:43 <jgarzik> warning: trollpatch launched ;p
1748 2013-10-25 19:22:05 <jgarzik> based on community feedback!
1749 2013-10-25 19:23:02 sustrik has joined
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1751 2013-10-25 19:24:28 digitalmagus2 has joined
1752 2013-10-25 19:24:37 <owowo> omg, omg, no bad patch! bad patch! :P
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1756 2013-10-25 19:33:20 <sipa> jgarzik: NAK, try resubmitting in 157 days
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1772 2013-10-25 19:53:12 <Ascendion> hmmmmm -- I'm looking at the block data returned by json-rpc and the block contains a property NextBlockHash... shouldnt that be the previous block since no block should know of its descendants ??
1773 2013-10-25 19:54:07 <sipa> it is "next block in the currently active chain"
1774 2013-10-25 19:54:15 <sipa> so it is only there for active blocks
1775 2013-10-25 19:54:36 paracyst has joined
1776 2013-10-25 19:55:59 <Ascendion> so its synthesized data ?? it will only be set if there is a next block in the "active" chain ?? (a wallet should only contain the active chain I thought, rolling back and refetching blocks when a fork is resolved)
1777 2013-10-25 19:56:33 <jakov> casascius: what were the critisisms of bip38?
1778 2013-10-25 19:56:50 <jakov> i just got round to reading your email
1779 2013-10-25 19:57:01 <jakov> is it just "lets use different scrypt parameters" or something else
1780 2013-10-25 19:57:03 Krellan_ has joined
1781 2013-10-25 19:57:19 <sipa> Ascendion: pretty much everything is synthesised data
1782 2013-10-25 19:58:03 <sipa> Ascendion: and a wallet can contaon transactions that were last seen in a non-active chain (i.e., a transaction that is reorganized away)
1783 2013-10-25 19:58:28 <sipa> Ascendion: what rpc is that?
1784 2013-10-25 19:58:31 super3_ has joined
1785 2013-10-25 19:58:59 <Ascendion> I discriminate synthesized data as being data that did not come in the original block message from the network... a block cannot know its next block until that block is created at some future time so to have the next block value, you have to go back in time and change the previous block stored in the wallet
1786 2013-10-25 19:59:09 <Ascendion> bitcoind json-rpc
1787 2013-10-25 19:59:16 <sipa> which rpc call?
1788 2013-10-25 19:59:19 <sipa> getblock?
1789 2013-10-25 19:59:31 <Ascendion> GetBlock(string blockhash)
1790 2013-10-25 19:59:39 <sipa> that is not a wallet rpc
1791 2013-10-25 19:59:48 <sipa> it queries the block database
1792 2013-10-25 20:00:16 <sipa> you can get the raw block data if you want
1793 2013-10-25 20:00:28 <sipa> by adding a false to the call iirc
1794 2013-10-25 20:00:58 <Ascendion> I'm using a C# wrapper that doesnt have that option
1795 2013-10-25 20:01:39 super3 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1796 2013-10-25 20:01:50 <Ascendion> ok -- so the only thing that really constrains order in the blockchain is the height ?? blocks dont even know the hash of the previous block accept indirectly via height-1 ??
1797 2013-10-25 20:02:06 <Luke-Jr> â¦
1798 2013-10-25 20:02:51 <Ascendion> dunno what you just typed Luke-Jr -- I dont have a utf-8 irc client :)
1799 2013-10-25 20:03:03 dgolds has joined
1800 2013-10-25 20:04:01 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: it was a single character abbreviation for "um, wtf? do some real research and ignore whatever gave you that insanely wrong idea"
1801 2013-10-25 20:05:13 <Ascendion> just going by the properties exposed in the object returned by the rpc call -- that being all I have access to using this API
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1804 2013-10-25 20:05:45 <Ascendion> (short of hacking the API of course which will happen if its returning incomplete data)
1805 2013-10-25 20:05:45 Krellan_ has joined
1806 2013-10-25 20:05:50 <sipa> a block only contains: version,timestamp,merkleroot,prevhash,nbits
1807 2013-10-25 20:05:55 <sipa> and a list of blocks
1808 2013-10-25 20:06:02 <sipa> so of course they know they predecessor
1809 2013-10-25 20:06:07 <Luke-Jr> transactions*
1810 2013-10-25 20:06:16 <sipa> eh right, a list of transactions
1811 2013-10-25 20:06:22 <sipa> that's essential to PoW working and keeping the data consistent
1812 2013-10-25 20:06:28 <sipa> and nonce
1813 2013-10-25 20:06:49 <Ascendion> ok -- so I gotta figure out why this API isnt returning the previous block hash, or why its calling it NextBlockHash if that is indeed the previous -- digging :)
1814 2013-10-25 20:07:26 <sipa> no
1815 2013-10-25 20:07:38 <sipa> it returns previousblockhash for all but the genesis block
1816 2013-10-25 20:07:40 mbelshe has joined
1817 2013-10-25 20:07:54 <sipa> and it returns nextblockhash for all blocks in the active chain, except the tip
1818 2013-10-25 20:08:06 <sipa> for most blocks, it returns both
1819 2013-10-25 20:10:31 <Ascendion> yes -- the object returned by this API call only exposes the NextBlockHash -- this is a problem with the API -- not with bitcoind -- gotta fix the API :)
1820 2013-10-25 20:10:41 <sipa> wtf?
1821 2013-10-25 20:10:53 <sipa> are you not accidentally querying the genesis block?
1822 2013-10-25 20:11:12 <sipa> (which doesn't have a previous)
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1825 2013-10-25 20:11:40 <Ascendion> I'm using a 3rd party lib that handles all the RPC calls and hands me back pocos... the block poco doesnt have the prevBlockHash... just the next
1826 2013-10-25 20:11:49 _ingsoc has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1827 2013-10-25 20:12:00 <sipa> poco?
1828 2013-10-25 20:12:15 <Ascendion> plain old (c/c++/c#) object
1829 2013-10-25 20:12:25 <sipa> heh ok
1830 2013-10-25 20:12:31 <sipa> where is the source code for that lib?
1831 2013-10-25 20:12:50 <Ascendion> BitcoinRpcSharp on github I think
1832 2013-10-25 20:13:14 _ingsoc has joined
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1834 2013-10-25 20:14:12 <gmaxwell> LOL
1835 2013-10-25 20:14:15 <gmaxwell> + if (tla == "nsa" || tla == "NSA")
1836 2013-10-25 20:14:16 <gmaxwell> + throw JSONRPCError(RPC_INVALID_ADDRESS_OR_KEY, "NSA already has your private key");
1837 2013-10-25 20:15:07 CodesInChaos has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1838 2013-10-25 20:15:08 feddy3 has joined
1839 2013-10-25 20:15:19 <Ascendion> ya -- its on github
1840 2013-10-25 20:17:11 CodesInChaos has joined
1841 2013-10-25 20:17:43 <sipa> Ascendion: that seems like a stupid mistake
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1845 2013-10-25 20:18:31 <Ascendion> I'm tracking down where it parses the json and making sure the poco has everything returned by the rpc
1846 2013-10-25 20:18:57 <sipa> just add the field
1847 2013-10-25 20:19:01 <sipa> i'm sure it will work
1848 2013-10-25 20:19:18 <super3> wait do we have any easter eggs in the qt client?
1849 2013-10-25 20:19:25 <sipa> super3: NO
1850 2013-10-25 20:19:41 <gmaxwell> They're called "bugs"
1851 2013-10-25 20:19:49 <gmaxwell> and "limitations"
1852 2013-10-25 20:20:02 <sipa> and "undocumented features"
1853 2013-10-25 20:20:05 <super3> ha ha.
1854 2013-10-25 20:20:06 <Ry4an> easter eggs filled with bugs is quite the idea...
1855 2013-10-25 20:20:06 <gmaxwell> that one where you restore a backup and all your coins are gone? That on is a riot.
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1859 2013-10-25 20:22:18 <super3> gmaxwell, well may not be funny for you but probably is for everyone else
1860 2013-10-25 20:22:45 <warren> whoa, what's up with sendtotla?
1861 2013-10-25 20:23:04 <gmaxwell> super3: do you have to worry about drowning when you go out in the rain?
1862 2013-10-25 20:23:08 denom has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1863 2013-10-25 20:23:22 <sipa> warren: see the branch name
1864 2013-10-25 20:24:16 <sipa> (my comment on the pullreq is serious, btw)
1865 2013-10-25 20:24:32 jakov has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1866 2013-10-25 20:24:36 <warren> and whoa, they managed to seize all of DPR's funds?
1867 2013-10-25 20:24:42 <super3> gmaxwell, only when its raining really really hard
1868 2013-10-25 20:25:05 <warren> xkcd.com/538/ attack I'm guessing.
1869 2013-10-25 20:25:37 <super3> warren, you beat me to it. i was just about to copy paste
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1871 2013-10-25 20:27:34 <swulf--> can we coin the term "538 attack" yet? :)
1872 2013-10-25 20:28:03 <sipa> i've been calling it the "$5 wrench attack"
1873 2013-10-25 20:28:16 <swulf--> not niche enough ;)
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1877 2013-10-25 20:29:03 <super3> i like 538 attack a little better, but your just going to look stupid if you have to explain it
1878 2013-10-25 20:29:06 <warren> I suppose by doing that they're sending the message, "You can't hide."
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1884 2013-10-25 20:30:12 <sipa> super3: it's funny enough when you can call it a $5 wrench attack, and people know exactly what you're referring to :)
1885 2013-10-25 20:30:57 <swulf--> but it's too direct. it lacks the "inside joke" feel
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1901 2013-10-25 20:56:08 <melvster> how big is the block chain if you only look at the headers?
1902 2013-10-25 20:57:34 <warren> sipa: I mean what is "TLA"?
1903 2013-10-25 20:58:35 <sipa> melvster: 80 bytes per block
1904 2013-10-25 20:58:45 <sipa> ;;calc [blocks]*80/1048576
1905 2013-10-25 20:58:45 <gribble> 20.2980804443
1906 2013-10-25 20:58:52 <sipa> 20 MiB
1907 2013-10-25 20:59:07 <sipa> warren: type on your command-line: "wtf is tla"
1908 2013-10-25 20:59:31 <jouke> isn't it more like 100 bytes?
1909 2013-10-25 20:59:38 <sipa> jouke: no
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1911 2013-10-25 20:59:47 <jouke> Oh, those aren't the blockheaders.
1912 2013-10-25 20:59:51 <melvster> sipa: thanks! :)
1913 2013-10-25 21:00:02 <jouke> ok nevermind.
1914 2013-10-25 21:00:14 <sipa> 4 bytes timestamp, 4 bytes nonce, 4 bytes version, 4 bytes nbits, 32 bytes merkle root, 32 bytes prevhashblock
1915 2013-10-25 21:00:31 <melvster> 4 bytes for a version seems quite a lot!
1916 2013-10-25 21:00:42 <warren> oh. send to EFF would fit in that.
1917 2013-10-25 21:00:58 <jouke> I was thinking about the bytes of the transaction count
1918 2013-10-25 21:01:12 <sipa> those are usually 1 or 3
1919 2013-10-25 21:01:25 <jouke> blocksize
1920 2013-10-25 21:01:56 <melvster> so the timestamp will have to get bigger at some point?
1921 2013-10-25 21:02:01 <sipa> no
1922 2013-10-25 21:02:19 <melvster> it just cycles round and round?
1923 2013-10-25 21:02:23 <sipa> indeed
1924 2013-10-25 21:02:28 <melvster> lol nice
1925 2013-10-25 21:02:34 <sipa> just assume the lowest high bytes that make sense
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1937 2013-10-25 21:21:10 <Delerium> Error when sending rawtransactions in my debug log. Either an S or R value excessivley padded. What does this error mean - eg.
1938 2013-10-25 21:21:10 <Delerium> ThreadRPCServer method=sendrawtransaction
1939 2013-10-25 21:21:10 <Delerium> ERROR: Non-canonical signature: R value excessively padded
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1946 2013-10-25 21:33:51 <gmaxwell> Delerium: the transaction was signed with by a broken signer which is inserting extra junk in the signature.
1947 2013-10-25 21:34:07 <gmaxwell> Delerium: (perhaps even leaking the private key, if you want to be uber paranoid. :P )
1948 2013-10-25 21:34:54 darkFun has joined
1949 2013-10-25 21:35:31 <sipa> gmaxwell: the padding only refers to additional zeroes in front, which should be harmless
1950 2013-10-25 21:37:17 darkFun has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1952 2013-10-25 21:40:36 FluffyBunny has quit (Quit: Off to my cookies⦠And milkâ¦)
1953 2013-10-25 21:42:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: private key over zero-count. :P
1954 2013-10-25 21:42:57 cysm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1955 2013-10-25 21:42:57 <gmaxwell> Delerium: What is this broken signer you're using so we can go yell at them to fix themselves?
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1964 2013-10-25 21:51:10 <Delerium> do you need to guess?
1965 2013-10-25 21:51:38 jakov has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1967 2013-10-25 21:52:49 <Delerium> im simply relaying - ill go yell at them - cheers :)
1968 2013-10-25 21:54:46 gingpark has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1969 2013-10-25 21:55:12 <gmaxwell> I mean, if someone can't manage to get the padding right.. are they even using random K values?
1970 2013-10-25 21:56:05 <Delerium> a little above my knowledge im afraid
1971 2013-10-25 21:56:26 <gmaxwell> It was a rhetorical question.
1972 2013-10-25 21:57:00 <Delerium> sent me on the right road tho - cheers
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1994 2013-10-25 22:13:39 <Luke-Jr> Delerium: so what is the signer? -.-
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2000 2013-10-25 22:27:11 <melvster> is there some place i can get a dump of all headers? or do i need to write some calls against the block chain?
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2003 2013-10-25 22:35:49 <Ascendion> melvster -- thats exactly what I'm doing now -- lotsa json-rpc to fetch the blocks and transactions so I can import them into a sql database :)
2004 2013-10-25 22:36:36 <melvster> Ascendion: lol exactly what i wanted to do ... do you have the json-rpc command by any chance?
2005 2013-10-25 22:37:23 <Ascendion> I'm using a C# library to handle all the rpc but getblock with the hash, or getblockhash with the block index (0=genesis) then getblock
2006 2013-10-25 22:37:30 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2007 2013-10-25 22:37:36 neep3r has joined
2008 2013-10-25 22:37:44 <melvster> ah thanks
2009 2013-10-25 22:38:27 <Ascendion> there is also a getblockcount returning long that will tell you how many blocks you gotta process :)
2010 2013-10-25 22:38:36 <melvster> i guess i can use https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
2011 2013-10-25 22:38:43 <Ascendion> that too :)
2012 2013-10-25 22:38:56 neep3r_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2013 2013-10-25 22:39:39 <melvster> im going to put all the headers on a website
2014 2013-10-25 22:40:28 <Luke-Jr> .. or just parse the files XD
2015 2013-10-25 22:40:37 <Luke-Jr> they're dead simple
2016 2013-10-25 22:40:39 <Ascendion> blockchain.info ?? :) LOL
2017 2013-10-25 22:40:55 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2018 2013-10-25 22:41:06 <melvster> yeah something like blockchain but with semantic annotation
2019 2013-10-25 22:41:22 <Ascendion> hmmm bitcoind -- does the rpc interface not go active until the block chain is synced ??
2020 2013-10-25 22:42:17 <pigeons> no, it is active while stil downloading and verifying blocks
2021 2013-10-25 22:43:32 <Ascendion> then I got a problem -- I've started a bitcoind, and it has definitly bound the port for listening (tried starting another copy and it failed) but trying to do a getblockcount using the same conf file gets me a "could not connect to server"
2022 2013-10-25 22:44:02 <Ascendion> (using the command line for the moment -- bitcoind getblockcount)
2023 2013-10-25 22:44:12 Rez has joined
2024 2013-10-25 22:44:14 <melvster> what's the default port?
2025 2013-10-25 22:44:21 <Ascendion> 8333 set in the conf
2026 2013-10-25 22:44:27 <Ascendion> along with the username and password
2027 2013-10-25 22:44:36 <melvster> thx ... hmm not sure i have bitcoin.conf
2028 2013-10-25 22:44:42 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2029 2013-10-25 22:44:44 <Ascendion> ip is set to 127.0.0.1 in the conf
2030 2013-10-25 22:45:07 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2031 2013-10-25 22:45:45 Rez is now known as LoRez
2032 2013-10-25 22:45:54 <Luke-Jr> Ascendion: there's a limit of like 4 RPC connections
2033 2013-10-25 22:46:08 <Luke-Jr> seriously, using RPC for this is stupid
2034 2013-10-25 22:46:16 <Ascendion> I havent even managed to get ONE to go through
2035 2013-10-25 22:46:45 <Ascendion> Luke-Jr -- its as good a way as any since I need a bitcoind running in any case to pull new blocks
2036 2013-10-25 22:47:10 <Ascendion> and at least this way I get the data as c# poco so I dont gotta parse shit
2037 2013-10-25 22:47:32 <Luke-Jr> it really isn't.
2038 2013-10-25 22:47:37 <Luke-Jr> it's going to be 10000x slower
2039 2013-10-25 22:47:56 <Ascendion> with at best a block every 5 to 10 minutes once synced ?? who cares
2040 2013-10-25 22:48:34 ambimorph has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2041 2013-10-25 22:48:48 <Luke-Jr> oh, you're going for realtime?
2042 2013-10-25 22:49:00 <warren> Luke-Jr: four keepalive RPC connections
2043 2013-10-25 22:49:06 <Luke-Jr> warren: same thing
2044 2013-10-25 22:49:20 <Ascendion> ya -- the app that is moving the data to the sql database will be constanly checking bitcoind for new blocks
2045 2013-10-25 22:49:34 <Luke-Jr> warren: and technically, no, it doesn't have to be keepalive to tie up a thread
2046 2013-10-25 22:49:47 <warren> Ascendion: blocknotify might help?
2047 2013-10-25 22:49:57 neep3r has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2048 2013-10-25 22:50:07 <Ascendion> I dont want to launch an app for each block recieved
2049 2013-10-25 22:50:27 <Luke-Jr> -blocknotify='killall -USR1 yourapp'
2050 2013-10-25 22:50:42 <Luke-Jr> also [22:45:44] <Ascendion> with at best a block every 5 to 10 minutes once synced â who cares
2051 2013-10-25 22:50:56 <warren> Ascendion: just signal, not launch
2052 2013-10-25 22:51:14 <Ascendion> even if it was just a tiny app that notified my db app via the service bus that a block had arrived, it would still be thrashing a lot of processes while syncing, and I'd still need to solve this problem where I cannot access the RPC
2053 2013-10-25 22:51:45 <warren> Ascendion: a crappy workaround people have been using is rebuilding bitcoind with more RPC threads
2054 2013-10-25 22:52:10 <Ascendion> threads have nothing to do with this -- I cannot even get the 1st connection to work
2055 2013-10-25 22:52:21 <Ascendion> just trying to get the blockcount
2056 2013-10-25 22:53:27 <Ascendion> bitcoind -conf=bitcoin.conf getblockcount << fails against a running bitcoind with the same conf
2057 2013-10-25 22:54:10 <TheLordOfTime> what error?
2058 2013-10-25 22:54:18 <TheLordOfTime> (if any, btw, i'm curious)
2059 2013-10-25 22:54:18 <Ascendion> could not connect to server
2060 2013-10-25 22:56:18 <pigeons> you said you are downloading and verifying the blockchain. how long since you started up, it does take several minutes often for intialization before you can connect
2061 2013-10-25 22:56:27 Coincidental has joined
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2063 2013-10-25 22:56:36 <Ascendion> bitcoind has been running at least 15 minutes so far
2064 2013-10-25 22:57:50 skinnkavaj has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2065 2013-10-25 22:57:56 <pigeons> waita little longer
2066 2013-10-25 22:57:59 <melvster> lol rpcuser=Ulysseys
2067 2013-10-25 22:58:01 <pigeons> check debug.log
2068 2013-10-25 22:58:10 <melvster> a rare misspelling from satoshi?
2069 2013-10-25 22:58:33 skinnkavaj has joined
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2072 2013-10-25 23:00:09 <gmaxwell> pigeons: uhhh. Are you running Bitcoin on a Tandy 1000? :P
2073 2013-10-25 23:00:39 <gmaxwell> (here its <5 seconds from start to RPC connectable. 15 minutes sounds insane)
2074 2013-10-25 23:01:10 <pigeons> ok, i've had several minutes, but yes, not much better than a tandy heh
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2077 2013-10-25 23:06:07 <Ascendion> nothing shows in debug log when I attempt to use bitcoind to access the rpc
2078 2013-10-25 23:06:46 <pigeons> i'll try to help him, what channel should we take it to?
2079 2013-10-25 23:07:27 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
2080 2013-10-25 23:07:35 <Ascendion> gmaxwell -- what shows in the log when the rpc server goes active if anything (so I can grep the log)
2081 2013-10-25 23:09:28 rdymac has joined
2082 2013-10-25 23:09:42 <Ascendion> hmmm my tail on the log isnt showing much... I cant believe it has finished syncing the block chain already
2083 2013-10-25 23:10:13 askmike has joined
2084 2013-10-25 23:11:23 <Ascendion> just looked at the begining of the log -- it binds the rpc ports before even loading the block index
2085 2013-10-25 23:12:05 <gmaxwell> Ascendion: at "Done loading" (actually somewhat before)
2086 2013-10-25 23:13:03 <Ascendion> ya -- I just saw the message in the log where it started the rpc thread
2087 2013-10-25 23:17:11 <Ascendion> hmmm it only got to height 114389 and stopped
2088 2013-10-25 23:18:08 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2089 2013-10-25 23:19:55 <Ascendion> restarted bitcoind -- its downloading blocks ... up to 116000
2090 2013-10-25 23:20:12 <Ascendion> getblockcount still fails
2091 2013-10-25 23:21:06 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2092 2013-10-25 23:24:01 <gmaxwell> Ascendion: you probably have the rpc setup wrong.
2093 2013-10-25 23:24:57 <Ascendion> http://pastebin.com/Tws7YLqH
2094 2013-10-25 23:25:13 agricocb has joined
2095 2013-10-25 23:25:44 <melvster> better make sure you're not port forwarding ;)
2096 2013-10-25 23:26:01 * Ascendion smacks melvster with a dead trout
2097 2013-10-25 23:26:53 <melvster> just tried mine
2098 2013-10-25 23:26:55 <melvster> bitcoind getblockcount
2099 2013-10-25 23:26:55 <melvster> 266077
2100 2013-10-25 23:27:09 <melvster> i can telnet to 8333
2101 2013-10-25 23:27:41 <melvster> i started it with bitcoind --daemon
2102 2013-10-25 23:28:25 <Ascendion> dont even see that as an option in --help
2103 2013-10-25 23:29:01 <melvster> -daemon Run in the background as a daemon and accept commands
2104 2013-10-25 23:29:09 <melvster> is there for me above testnet
2105 2013-10-25 23:29:43 <Ascendion> I might be running an older bitcoind then
2106 2013-10-25 23:29:58 cysm has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2107 2013-10-25 23:29:59 <TheLordOfTime> `bitcoind -daemon` launches for me, and shows the blockcount correctly +- 250 blocks because still updating
2108 2013-10-25 23:30:05 <Ascendion> ya -- I'm on 0.8.1-beta
2109 2013-10-25 23:30:15 <melvster> Bitcoin version v0.8.5.0-gef14a26-beta
2110 2013-10-25 23:30:18 <TheLordOfTime> yeah i'm on 0.8.5 so meh
2111 2013-10-25 23:33:18 <melvster> get block works for me too
2112 2013-10-25 23:33:48 <melvster> "confirmations" : 266078,
2113 2013-10-25 23:33:50 <melvster> nice!
2114 2013-10-25 23:35:12 <melvster> wow the first few blocks had no transactions other than the reward
2115 2013-10-25 23:36:04 <Ascendion> I just got 0.8.5-beta and I still dont see the --daemon command
2116 2013-10-25 23:36:21 <melvster> sure?
2117 2013-10-25 23:36:42 <Ascendion> very
2118 2013-10-25 23:37:04 <Ascendion> above -testnet I have -paytxfee
2119 2013-10-25 23:38:00 <Ascendion> got my bitcoind from the bitcoin-qt distro on sourceforge
2120 2013-10-25 23:38:35 <TheLordOfTime> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6303546/ is what i have...
2121 2013-10-25 23:38:49 <melvster> -paytxfee=<amt> Fee per KB to add to transactions you send
2122 2013-10-25 23:38:49 <melvster> -daemon Run in the background as a daemon and accept commands
2123 2013-10-25 23:38:49 <melvster> -testnet Use the test network
2124 2013-10-25 23:38:56 <TheLordOfTime> and that's from the PPA. And on my other system where I built the source by hand, thats identical
2125 2013-10-25 23:39:01 <Ascendion> where did you get that version ??
2126 2013-10-25 23:39:10 <TheLordOfTime> which version, the one that i'm using?
2127 2013-10-25 23:39:12 <melvster> i run on ubuntu
2128 2013-10-25 23:39:15 <TheLordOfTime> same
2129 2013-10-25 23:39:19 <melvster> it gets auto updated
2130 2013-10-25 23:39:21 <Ascendion> windows here
2131 2013-10-25 23:39:30 <TheLordOfTime> Ascendion: it works on windows too for me
2132 2013-10-25 23:39:34 <TheLordOfTime> when i tested last at least
2133 2013-10-25 23:39:50 <TheLordOfTime> i should boot to that and check though :p
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2135 2013-10-25 23:43:13 <Ascendion> just checked the source -- the -daemon option is disabled on win32
2136 2013-10-25 23:43:47 <TheLordOfTime> ah
2137 2013-10-25 23:43:54 <TheLordOfTime> yeah makes sense because forking
2138 2013-10-25 23:44:01 <TheLordOfTime> windows doesn't like background processes
2139 2013-10-25 23:44:08 <TheLordOfTime> linux doesn't mind them :P
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2143 2013-10-25 23:49:26 <Ascendion> pigeons -- sorry -- didnt notice your PM
2144 2013-10-25 23:50:59 <Ascendion> the app I'm setting up may eventually end up on a machine running several bitcoind with seperate wallet and blockchain data so I've got everything piled into a non-standard datadir
2145 2013-10-25 23:52:48 <super3> Ascendion, don't forget most of bitcoind is getting pulled into bitcoin-cli
2146 2013-10-25 23:53:20 <super3> dunno what you are doing, just point that out
2147 2013-10-25 23:53:30 jakov has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2148 2013-10-25 23:53:39 <Ascendion> trying to get a bitcoind running that I can access the RPC interface
2149 2013-10-25 23:54:01 <Ascendion> right now I cannot even do bitcoind getblockcount without an error
2150 2013-10-25 23:54:10 <super3> everything rpc is going to be in bitcoin-cli, and will no longer work in bitcoind in a release cycle or two
2151 2013-10-25 23:54:19 <super3> aceat64, what error are you getting?
2152 2013-10-25 23:54:29 <Ascendion> cannot connect to server
2153 2013-10-25 23:54:45 <super3> Ascendion, did you start the server?
2154 2013-10-25 23:54:56 OneFixt_ has joined
2155 2013-10-25 23:54:58 <super3> bitcoind -daemon
2156 2013-10-25 23:55:16 <TheLordOfTime> super3: -daemon != on win32
2157 2013-10-25 23:55:19 <TheLordOfTime> disabled for windows builds
2158 2013-10-25 23:55:20 <melvster> you need something like:
2159 2013-10-25 23:55:22 <Ascendion> I'm watching a tail on the debug log right now -- and I'm on windows -- no daemon option :)
2160 2013-10-25 23:55:23 <melvster> bitcoind getblock 00000000839a8e6886ab5951d76f411475428afc90947ee320161bbf18eb6048 | ./jq -r '.nextblockhash'
2161 2013-10-25 23:55:23 <melvster> 000000006a625f06636b8bb6ac7b960a8d03705d1ace08b1a19da3fdcc99ddbd
2162 2013-10-25 23:55:41 <melvster> put that in a for loop
2163 2013-10-25 23:55:42 <super3> TheLordOfTime, yikes~
2164 2013-10-25 23:55:58 <super3> well that makes things a little more difficult
2165 2013-10-25 23:56:18 MobGod_ has joined
2166 2013-10-25 23:56:49 <TheLordOfTime> super3: and where is this bitcoin-cli you speak of?
2167 2013-10-25 23:56:58 segy has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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2169 2013-10-25 23:58:24 <super3> TheLordOfTime, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3082
2170 2013-10-25 23:58:28 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2171 2013-10-25 23:58:36 <TheLordOfTime> super3: thanks
2172 2013-10-25 23:58:38 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2173 2013-10-25 23:58:40 <Ascendion> super3 -- why in all hell would the bitcoin devs deprecate an interface thats been in the system since day 1 and 100s of apps depend on ??
2174 2013-10-25 23:58:41 <super3> TheLordOfTime, added 3 days ago
2175 2013-10-25 23:59:13 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
2176 2013-10-25 23:59:58 <gmaxwell> TheLordOfTime: you're confused.