1 2013-10-28 00:03:09 <sipa> BlueMatt: is there nothing like memenv for that b2?
2 2013-10-28 00:03:09 <sipa> eh, h2
3 2013-10-28 00:03:59 <sipa> BlueMatt: so, what is holding that pullreq back? the fact that there is no tmpfs on the pulltester vm?
4 2013-10-28 00:04:20 <BlueMatt> probably, havent looked recently
5 2013-10-28 00:04:25 <BlueMatt> yep
6 2013-10-28 00:04:29 toffoo has joined
7 2013-10-28 00:04:51 <BlueMatt> feel free to login and fix pull-tester.py
8 2013-10-28 00:05:18 <sipa> or /etc/fstab?
9 2013-10-28 00:05:46 <BlueMatt> not sure, try it
10 2013-10-28 00:05:53 <BlueMatt> may break some rm -r or so
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13 2013-10-28 00:08:05 <sipa> AAAARGH
14 2013-10-28 00:08:17 <sipa> i've been testing with ./bitcoin-qt all the time
15 2013-10-28 00:08:23 <sipa> instead of ./src/qt/bitcoin-qt
16 2013-10-28 00:08:31 <BlueMatt> hah nice
17 2013-10-28 00:08:56 <BlueMatt> this is why you git clean -f -x -d when switching to/from 0.8
18 2013-10-28 00:09:08 <sipa> 0.8?
19 2013-10-28 00:09:14 <sipa> this is just git head
20 2013-10-28 00:09:27 <BlueMatt> and ./bitcoin-qt is not
21 2013-10-28 00:09:28 <sipa> and i have way too many non-checked in files that are useful to run a command like that
22 2013-10-28 00:09:30 <BlueMatt> ie its from 0.8
23 2013-10-28 00:09:41 <BlueMatt> ahh, well keep those up a level
24 2013-10-28 00:09:55 <sipa> it's from a headersfirst build, apparently
25 2013-10-28 00:10:05 <sipa> long after 0.8.99
26 2013-10-28 00:10:09 <sipa> but before autotools
27 2013-10-28 00:12:08 <BlueMatt> s#to/from 0.8#to/from autotools#
28 2013-10-28 00:12:10 <BlueMatt> happy?
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32 2013-10-28 00:13:54 <sipa> yup!
33 2013-10-28 00:13:58 <sipa> also, your latest comparison script on tmpfs seems to work nicely
34 2013-10-28 00:14:30 * warren has watchonly working on 0.8.5
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36 2013-10-28 00:15:51 <sipa> warren: cool
37 2013-10-28 00:15:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea...finally
38 2013-10-28 00:16:19 <warren> sipa: I'm just making a bitcoin-0.8.5 tree with all the same backports as in litecoin-0.8.5.x
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40 2013-10-28 00:16:53 <warren> I should stuff leveldb 1.13 in here too
41 2013-10-28 00:17:26 <warren> sipa: is there a syntax to update and resquash an existing subtree?
42 2013-10-28 00:18:23 neep3r has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
43 2013-10-28 00:18:24 <sipa> git subtree pull, with some extra arguments
44 2013-10-28 00:18:58 <sipa> -P src/leveldb in any case
45 2013-10-28 00:19:11 <sipa> and then the name of a branch in the leveldb repo
46 2013-10-28 00:20:06 <sipa> there's a leveldb 1.14 btw
47 2013-10-28 00:20:14 nidal has joined
48 2013-10-28 00:20:16 <sipa> but no changes that are relevant for us, i think
49 2013-10-28 00:20:36 <warren> I rather test what will be in 0.9
50 2013-10-28 00:20:40 deepc0re has quit (Quit: deepc0re)
51 2013-10-28 00:20:41 <warren> unless you're putting 1.14 into 0.9
52 2013-10-28 00:20:53 <sipa> i'm not inclined to now
53 2013-10-28 00:21:11 <sipa> so do a git remote add of the git@github.com/bitcoin/leveldb repo
54 2013-10-28 00:21:30 nidal has quit (Client Quit)
55 2013-10-28 00:21:33 <sipa> and then git subtree pull --squash -P src/leveldb leveldb/master
56 2013-10-28 00:21:41 <sipa> that should do it, iirc
57 2013-10-28 00:21:45 <warren> ah, thanks
58 2013-10-28 00:21:46 <sipa> but haven't tried myself now
59 2013-10-28 00:22:03 <warren> I'll ship both litecoin and bitcoin-0.8.5-awesomestuff with that
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123 2013-10-28 02:24:31 <skinnkavaj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319688.0
124 2013-10-28 02:24:40 <skinnkavaj> Bitcoin's Killer App = High Speed Anonymous Internet (TOR like)
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129 2013-10-28 02:41:28 <warren> sigh. my laptop can't survive syncing the bitcoin block chain
130 2013-10-28 02:41:29 CircusPeanut has joined
131 2013-10-28 02:41:31 <warren> overheat kills itself
132 2013-10-28 02:42:10 dgolds has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
133 2013-10-28 02:42:14 * gmaxwell rages at the world
134 2013-10-28 02:42:32 <gmaxwell> It's really bullshit that we should be asked to deal with crap like that (I know you're not...)
135 2013-10-28 02:42:46 dgolds has joined
136 2013-10-28 02:43:14 <propumpkin> crap like what?
137 2013-10-28 02:43:21 <warren> that
138 2013-10-28 02:43:27 <gmaxwell> propumpkin: Hardware that fails if you use it.
139 2013-10-28 02:43:29 <propumpkin> oh
140 2013-10-28 02:44:22 <gmaxwell> 99% of random desktops users spend 99% of their time idle. Their machines crash randomly anyways.. so it's commercially viable to sell hardware that can't actually take being used.
141 2013-10-28 02:45:12 <gmaxwell> then joe-random-user, understandably since it doesn't frequently otherwiseâ or when it does its often because some program broke and busylooped, blames bitcoin when his machine overheats.
142 2013-10-28 02:45:45 <warren> this is a Thinkpad T410s. It never could handle running both cores at full speed. Once to render a video I held the laptop up to a 10,000 BTU AC for an hour. The temperature hovered ~98C ... at 100C it kills itself.
143 2013-10-28 02:45:51 <gmaxwell> unlike the hardware or the OS vendor we can't reasonably add things like thermal throttling to bitcoin, because the mechenisms are too system specific.
144 2013-10-28 02:46:03 <lianj> i thought those machines are only 70% idle because the rest is taken for LTS game of malwares
145 2013-10-28 02:46:49 dgolds has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
146 2013-10-28 02:46:49 <gmaxwell> lianj: worse, the malware is also a not uncommon cause of overheating, so people will sometimes assume they got malware.
147 2013-10-28 02:47:06 <warren> when they are really just mining for bitcoins
148 2013-10-28 02:47:08 <warren> =)
149 2013-10-28 02:47:25 <lianj> warren: just sell some bitcoin and get a new machine
150 2013-10-28 02:47:51 <warren> lianj: my last three generations of Thinkpad are still working
151 2013-10-28 02:47:52 <gmaxwell> Thinkpads are usually pretty good. My x230 is fine with all four cores pegged and the lid closed.
152 2013-10-28 02:48:01 <warren> four cores?!
153 2013-10-28 02:48:05 <warren> I'd love a 4 core thinkpad
154 2013-10-28 02:48:32 <lianj> get one :P
155 2013-10-28 02:48:37 <gmaxwell> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3520M CPU @ 2.90GHz
156 2013-10-28 02:48:38 <warren> I didn't know they existed
157 2013-10-28 02:49:01 <warren> gmaxwell: how heavy?
158 2013-10-28 02:49:22 <sipa> 1.3 kilobytes
159 2013-10-28 02:49:30 <lianj> ^^
160 2013-10-28 02:49:45 <lianj> including the crappy display :(
161 2013-10-28 02:50:11 <gmaxwell> it's an x230, it's not an ultraportable netbook but it's smaller than $random_laptop yea, the bummer is that the display is nowhere near as good as my old x61t (SXGA+) was.
162 2013-10-28 02:50:37 <warren> I need some expenses to offset income. maybe it's time to buy a new laptop
163 2013-10-28 02:51:02 <gmaxwell> I understand the new haswell ones are nice... maybe even some models coming out with better displays, but I don't know if those are shipping yet.
164 2013-10-28 02:51:05 <lianj> i mean resolution. so sad no new xseries got a good one. staying with my x220 until the ship one
165 2013-10-28 02:51:26 <warren> haswell is out? I haven't been following hardware at all.
166 2013-10-28 02:51:40 <gmaxwell> warren: yes, the desktop and mobile ones are out.
167 2013-10-28 02:51:57 <lianj> warren: thats why you whine about bitcoin freezing your gameboy :P
168 2013-10-28 02:52:14 <gmaxwell> multisocket server parts are still stuck with IB-E
169 2013-10-28 02:52:47 <warren> my T410s has a weird battery that is very expensive to replace
170 2013-10-28 02:52:54 <warren> I guess that's true of all T*s
171 2013-10-28 02:53:39 <gmaxwell> warren: hm? usually there is an unending supply of vendors on ebay with mostly okay greymarket thinkpad batteries.
172 2013-10-28 02:53:49 <warren> gmaxwell: this is a weird one
173 2013-10-28 02:54:14 <warren> gmaxwell: only T400s and T410s, and both were unpopular models because of omgwtfbbq hardware defects
174 2013-10-28 02:54:24 <warren> I've had this laptop service 9 times under warranty
175 2013-10-28 02:56:02 <warren> grr,, the T431s has an entirely different power adapter and non-replacceable battery
176 2013-10-28 02:56:56 <gavinandresen> We should all get together and vow to only buy laptops that run on standard AAA batteries. Who's with me?
177 2013-10-28 02:57:13 <lianj> hell no
178 2013-10-28 02:57:24 <gavinandresen> what, you want D-cells?
179 2013-10-28 02:57:27 <gavinandresen> 9 volts?
180 2013-10-28 02:57:28 <warren> hahaa
181 2013-10-28 02:57:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: does it also apply to laptops you *get*, rather than buy?
182 2013-10-28 02:57:35 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
183 2013-10-28 02:57:40 <warren> gavinandresen: potato batteries
184 2013-10-28 02:57:54 <gavinandresen> sipa: you getting sent lots of laptops these days?
185 2013-10-28 02:57:59 <gavinandresen> warren: Hand Crank FTW!
186 2013-10-28 02:58:03 <sipa> warren: you played too much portal
187 2013-10-28 02:58:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: one suffices
188 2013-10-28 02:58:11 <warren> actually I haven't played portal
189 2013-10-28 02:58:35 <sipa> actually, portal 2
190 2013-10-28 02:58:44 neep3r has joined
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192 2013-10-28 02:58:51 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: do any Loongson laptops run on AAA?
193 2013-10-28 02:59:04 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
194 2013-10-28 02:59:12 <warren> the last game I played was FFXIII
195 2013-10-28 02:59:27 <sipa> in soviet russia, battery drains you
196 2013-10-28 02:59:48 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
197 2013-10-28 03:00:18 <warren> damn, there's no thin laptops with quad core
198 2013-10-28 03:00:22 agnostic98 has joined
199 2013-10-28 03:00:32 <lianj> define thin
200 2013-10-28 03:00:55 debiantoruser has joined
201 2013-10-28 03:01:03 <warren> T4xxs or thinner
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203 2013-10-28 03:02:30 ambimorph has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
204 2013-10-28 03:02:35 <Luke-Jr> not even quad core ARM? :P
205 2013-10-28 03:02:45 <warren> the current laptops don't look much better than what I have
206 2013-10-28 03:03:10 <warren> I just need to strap on a 10,000 BTU A/C to make my laptop usable.
207 2013-10-28 03:03:38 * lianj gives up
208 2013-10-28 03:03:45 <lianj> just don't blame bitcoin
209 2013-10-28 03:04:02 <Luke-Jr> sigh, I seem to have gotten into a debate with someone who insists GPU mining with DirectCompute (DirectX) makes sense
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212 2013-10-28 03:07:44 <warren> laptop died again. time to limit it to 50% of one core.
213 2013-10-28 03:09:07 <phantomcircuit> warren, what are you doing
214 2013-10-28 03:09:23 <warren> phantomcircuit: syncing bitcoin blockchain
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217 2013-10-28 03:11:22 <lianj> warren: you run thinkfan?
218 2013-10-28 03:11:55 <warren> lianj: this laptop design just sucks. at 100% fan it can't handle full power.
219 2013-10-28 03:12:08 <lianj> how do you know its 100%
220 2013-10-28 03:12:21 <lianj> controlling the can by yourself?
221 2013-10-28 03:12:26 <warren> because I owned this laptop since 2010 and I've fiddled with it before
222 2013-10-28 03:12:58 <lianj> so with thinfan and last level being 127 aka real full speed it still happens? find it hard to believe
223 2013-10-28 03:13:51 <warren> lianj: this laptop just sucks
224 2013-10-28 03:14:33 <warren> there, 80% of one core and temperature is hovering at 95C
225 2013-10-28 03:14:36 <warren> not pushing it harder
226 2013-10-28 03:16:19 <lianj> withs the fans rpm?
227 2013-10-28 03:16:24 <lianj> *whats
228 2013-10-28 03:16:46 <warren> dunno, I fiddled with it in windows and later /sys something
229 2013-10-28 03:16:53 <phantomcircuit> warren, which model?
230 2013-10-28 03:17:02 <warren> phantomcircuit: Thinkpad T410s
231 2013-10-28 03:17:33 <lianj> warren: if you dunno and still cry, you are bad at debugging
232 2013-10-28 03:17:37 <phantomcircuit> that's nearly identical to the T61p i have
233 2013-10-28 03:17:44 <phantomcircuit> which also has terrible thermal management
234 2013-10-28 03:17:49 <lianj> cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan
235 2013-10-28 03:18:33 <warren> lianj: I've looked years ago and came to the conclusion this thing can't handle full power
236 2013-10-28 03:18:35 <phantomcircuit> lianj, nah ibm screwed up on this one
237 2013-10-28 03:18:59 <phantomcircuit> they rely really heavily on copper heatsinks to move the heat from the cpu to the fan
238 2013-10-28 03:19:12 <phantomcircuit> the problem is it doesn't move 100% of the hear
239 2013-10-28 03:19:14 <phantomcircuit> heat*
240 2013-10-28 03:19:31 <phantomcircuit> and the fans are hilariously underpowered
241 2013-10-28 03:19:48 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
242 2013-10-28 03:20:10 <lianj> that might be, but i can't believe doing `echo "level disengaged" > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan` won't make it at least a bit better
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244 2013-10-28 03:20:33 <phantomcircuit> lianj, the fan on this model will rip itself apart if you do that
245 2013-10-28 03:20:45 <phantomcircuit> i went through 4 fans on my T61p before i just gave up
246 2013-10-28 03:21:10 <warren> phantomcircuit: you know where to buy replacement hsf's cheap?
247 2013-10-28 03:21:33 <lianj> phantomcircuit: but you destroyed that piece of hardware then, right :)
248 2013-10-28 03:21:52 <phantomcircuit> warren, you can either buy the cheap chinese ones where you have to actually replace the fan unit in the heatsink
249 2013-10-28 03:22:06 <phantomcircuit> or buy the ones from lenovo that are like $80 each
250 2013-10-28 03:23:48 <warren> I feel like if I can replace the HSF, keyboard and mouse, this thing will last another 3 years.
251 2013-10-28 03:25:03 Belxjander has quit (Quit: System Restarting!!!)
252 2013-10-28 03:25:26 <phantomcircuit> warren, unlikely but go for it
253 2013-10-28 03:26:16 <warren> I'd upgrade if there were a quad core laptop of similar weight.
254 2013-10-28 03:26:30 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
255 2013-10-28 03:26:52 <gmaxwell> warren: huh? the T410 is like 5lbs.
256 2013-10-28 03:26:57 <gmaxwell> The x230s are 3 lbs.
257 2013-10-28 03:27:19 <warren> gmaxwell: T410 yes. T410s with the drive bay removed (useless anyway) is lighter than an ultrabook
258 2013-10-28 03:27:42 <warren> less than 3lbs
259 2013-10-28 03:27:48 <gmaxwell> ah. yea, well, the really light notebook market has mostly been killed by crappy tablets.
260 2013-10-28 03:27:57 <lianj> gmaxwell: you like the keyboard? (never tried, but skeptik)
261 2013-10-28 03:28:11 <warren> I miss the old thinkpad keyboard.
262 2013-10-28 03:28:25 CryptoBuck has joined
263 2013-10-28 03:28:55 <MC1984> warren there is probably a nice blanket of navel lint on the inside of the heatsink fins
264 2013-10-28 03:29:01 <gmaxwell> lianj: I have mixed feelings about the new keyboards. They feel fine, pretty good actually. But they don't have as strong of a "positive confirmation" that you hit the button, so it makes me miss characters more often (esp r, e, t for some reason)
265 2013-10-28 03:29:14 <warren> gmaxwell: exactly!
266 2013-10-28 03:29:32 <warren> MC1984: I clean it thoroughly because it sucks horribly if I don't.
267 2013-10-28 03:29:42 justusranvier has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
268 2013-10-28 03:29:49 <MC1984> thermal paste?
269 2013-10-28 03:30:00 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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271 2013-10-28 03:30:27 <gmaxwell> They're easier to keep clean though.
272 2013-10-28 03:30:32 Coincidental has joined
273 2013-10-28 03:30:50 <gmaxwell> and I get the impression that it'll last longer. on the x61t I think I replaced my keyboard 5 times.
274 2013-10-28 03:30:56 <MC1984> this one i have here is an i7 quad + nvidia 650gt something chip serviced by one heatpipe and about 4 inches of heatsink
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276 2013-10-28 03:31:01 <MC1984> it seems sufficient
277 2013-10-28 03:31:30 <gmaxwell> Hm. actually probably only three times, I replaced Kat's x61t keyboard twice.
278 2013-10-28 03:31:48 <lianj> gmaxwell: yea, likewise. but loved the x60t. never used the touch much but rotating the screen to another person was priceless
279 2013-10-28 03:32:24 <MC1984> im thinking of getting an old thinkpad for my mother for christmas actually
280 2013-10-28 03:32:33 <MC1984> theres a UK site that is selling them cheap w/ coreboot installed
281 2013-10-28 03:32:57 <gmaxwell> lianj: yea. it was also handy for reading things on airplanes... thats pretty much the only times I used it. But both our x61ts hinges eventually failed, and they were a pita to replace. Kat used the tablet mode enough that she has the x230t now.
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283 2013-10-28 03:34:16 <lianj> yea, what was the downsid of x230t vs no t, i think no additional pci slot or something?
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286 2013-10-28 03:35:30 <gmaxwell> lianj: yea, well, also t-type battery, and the doomed to be less reliable t-hinge. it's also a bit thicker.
287 2013-10-28 03:35:43 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
288 2013-10-28 03:36:01 <warren> actually. one of the reasons why I quit bitcoin in 2010 was my laptop overheated and killed itself.
289 2013-10-28 03:36:15 <warren> same laptop
290 2013-10-28 03:36:18 <lianj> and now you want to keep it for another 3 years
291 2013-10-28 03:36:32 <warren> well, it's fine as long as I use one core at 50% speed
292 2013-10-28 03:36:34 <warren> =)
293 2013-10-28 03:36:38 <gmaxwell> really my favorite thinkpad was the x60 except for the screen. .. no stupid touchpad, super small and light. Even with the jumbo gives-it-12-hours slice battery it was thinner than most laptops.
294 2013-10-28 03:36:42 <lianj> warren: great
295 2013-10-28 03:37:34 <gmaxwell> my second favorite was the x61t. ... last 4:3 laptop I'll probably ever be able to own, awesome sxga+ screen. good original lenovo keyboard.
296 2013-10-28 03:38:04 <lianj> yea, slice battery was/is great. although i destroyed 2 when charging them in the us. i know it makes no sense but was reproduceable (thus the two instead of one)
297 2013-10-28 03:38:18 <MC1984> heh warren thats really not normal
298 2013-10-28 03:39:28 <warren> this model was a serious disaster. ALL of them had this defect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM9_ZM_8qkQ
299 2013-10-28 03:39:43 <warren> they refused to fix it until I posted this video
300 2013-10-28 03:40:00 <gmaxwell> the x61* sxga+ displays got bubbles.
301 2013-10-28 03:40:33 <lianj> mine didn't, a friend still uses it
302 2013-10-28 03:41:30 <gmaxwell> lianj: the two here did, it was commonly reported. But they tended to be on the edge and so you (or at least we) got used to them. they were worth it.
303 2013-10-28 03:41:38 <MC1984> that screen thing seems like it might be the LVDS bundle or its connector
304 2013-10-28 03:41:50 <warren> perhaps one day bitcoin will be discussed here again. I'm sorry.
305 2013-10-28 03:41:53 dgolds has joined
306 2013-10-28 03:42:04 <lianj> you started it
307 2013-10-28 03:42:10 <warren> I know.
308 2013-10-28 03:46:44 t7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
309 2013-10-28 03:47:56 cads has joined
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313 2013-10-28 03:51:56 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: while I'm at it, anything else need done to pull-tester?
314 2013-10-28 03:52:08 <BlueMatt> or anyone else have tests they want added to BitcoindComparisonTool?
315 2013-10-28 03:52:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell, sipa: ^
316 2013-10-28 03:52:17 agnostic98 has joined
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319 2013-10-28 03:57:41 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the tester ought to have some bad serialization tests, scriptpubkey invalidity (we don't check scriptpubkeys for the most part, so putting invalid things it is permitted), and dead script branch invailidy tests cases that I think it lacks.
320 2013-10-28 03:58:25 <gmaxwell> apparently btcd got forked on testnet after passing pull tester (bummer, since it kinda suggests that they were just iterating to pass pull tester, alas), but they didn't open an issue on the specific trigger transaction so I dunno which one it was.
321 2013-10-28 03:58:51 <BlueMatt> davec added a script branch with invalid opcode test a few weeks ago
322 2013-10-28 03:59:09 <BlueMatt> Im assuming to address that specific oversight
323 2013-10-28 03:59:16 <BlueMatt> bad serialization sounds fun
324 2013-10-28 04:00:15 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, I can give an example of that, one sec.
325 2013-10-28 04:00:31 mintmoney has joined
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329 2013-10-28 04:03:14 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: pull-tester should be working? So if I manually re-run https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3164 it should succeed?
330 2013-10-28 04:04:14 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: working on the tmpfs thing now
331 2013-10-28 04:04:18 <BlueMatt> once I get that done, yes
332 2013-10-28 04:04:39 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: awesome.
333 2013-10-28 04:06:09 dlidstrom has joined
334 2013-10-28 04:15:43 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: windows builds etc are all running?
335 2013-10-28 04:17:30 Coincidental has joined
336 2013-10-28 04:17:49 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yes, but windows builds were not being tested against the block-tester or unit tests run
337 2013-10-28 04:18:00 <BlueMatt> why no unit tests?
338 2013-10-28 04:18:33 bizmark has joined
339 2013-10-28 04:18:49 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I was just cutting down number of variables to get things working-- wanted to cut out the wine dependency
340 2013-10-28 04:19:04 <BlueMatt> :(
341 2013-10-28 04:19:09 <BlueMatt> is wine installed in the chroot?
342 2013-10-28 04:19:18 bizmark has quit (Client Quit)
343 2013-10-28 04:19:38 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yes, I think so. Would probably work...
344 2013-10-28 04:19:48 <BlueMatt> also, the number of variable in pull-tester.py is fracking unreadable...
345 2013-10-28 04:20:08 <gavinandresen> ⦠but I'm not sure running unit tests twice, once under wine and once native, is worth it.
346 2013-10-28 04:20:18 <BlueMatt> it has caught issues in the past
347 2013-10-28 04:20:25 <BlueMatt> as has running the block tester twice
348 2013-10-28 04:20:32 <gavinandresen> There is definite benefit to having a quick commit-get-pull-tester-results-quickly cycle
349 2013-10-28 04:21:01 <BlueMatt> you can check the logs right after it starts
350 2013-10-28 04:21:11 <gavinandresen> Running git HEAD against the block tester and unit tests in wine / etc makes sense to me.
351 2013-10-28 04:22:54 <BlueMatt> well it looks like jenkins is stopped?
352 2013-10-28 04:22:59 <gavinandresen> in my humble opinion⦠ideal system is per-pull pull-tester should compile linux and windows binaries and make them available (and comment).
353 2013-10-28 04:23:15 <BlueMatt> no builds since sept :(
354 2013-10-28 04:23:18 <gavinandresen> ⦠and jenkins does the whole-shebang test-everything-up-the-wazoo
355 2013-10-28 04:23:27 bizmark has joined
356 2013-10-28 04:23:36 <gavinandresen> Yes, I turned off jenkins because Everything Was Changing.
357 2013-10-28 04:23:45 <BlueMatt> ahh
358 2013-10-28 04:24:07 <gavinandresen> It was one of those "can't change just this little thing without it turning into a three day project"
359 2013-10-28 04:24:22 <gavinandresen> (I don't remember details)
360 2013-10-28 04:24:32 <BlueMatt> sounds like fun...
361 2013-10-28 04:24:41 <gavinandresen> yeah, not.
362 2013-10-28 04:24:54 owowo is now known as Th3|bl0cK
363 2013-10-28 04:24:56 <Tril> window 13
364 2013-10-28 04:25:21 <BlueMatt> hmm...so you're saying I should learn autotools and restructure the test scripts to make it either run pull-tester simple tests of jenkins full tests?
365 2013-10-28 04:25:26 bizmark has quit (Client Quit)
366 2013-10-28 04:25:28 <gavinandresen> I haven't heard from Cory or Andreas, I was hoping they'd make it work.
367 2013-10-28 04:25:29 <BlueMatt> that sounds like a grand ol time
368 2013-10-28 04:25:45 Th3 is now known as bl0cK!~ted@gateway/tor-sasl/ovovo|owowo
369 2013-10-28 04:26:27 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: no, what I'm really saying is we need a paid QA lead, but nobody has stepped up and proven they're competent to do that.
370 2013-10-28 04:27:02 <gavinandresen> well, competent and WILLING
371 2013-10-28 04:27:23 <gavinandresen> Plus, the autotools stuff still hasn't settled down 100% last I heard
372 2013-10-28 04:28:12 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
373 2013-10-28 04:29:55 debiantoruser has joined
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375 2013-10-28 04:38:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: what problem are you having with autotools?
376 2013-10-28 04:38:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: have to add new conditionals and such, halfway done though
377 2013-10-28 04:39:41 <gmaxwell> K. (lots of people floating around have autotools expirence so make sure you ask if you get stuck, no one in the universe actually understands itâ mind youâ but some expirence is usually good enough)
378 2013-10-28 04:40:09 xiangfu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
379 2013-10-28 04:40:31 mbelshe has quit (Quit: mbelshe)
380 2013-10-28 04:40:55 <gavinandresen> Where are we at with documentation and autotools, by the way? I haven't been paying very close attention....
381 2013-10-28 04:41:23 <Luke-Jr> autotools is getting there slowly but surely
382 2013-10-28 04:41:31 <Luke-Jr> (void*)(intptr_t)a <-- ugly :<
383 2013-10-28 04:42:08 dlidstrom has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
384 2013-10-28 04:43:46 <gmaxwell> I observed last night that doc/build-unix.md at a minimum needs updating as it refers to modifying makefiles.
385 2013-10-28 04:46:10 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: do you see any problem with creating issues for test infrastructur that ought to exist but doesn't, perhaps tagged with label test?
386 2013-10-28 04:47:58 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: no, good idea.
387 2013-10-28 04:48:19 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: like?
388 2013-10-28 04:49:54 <gavinandresen> like: every commit should be unit tested so git bisect always works
389 2013-10-28 04:49:55 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
390 2013-10-28 04:50:06 TheSeven has joined
391 2013-10-28 04:50:30 <BlueMatt> you mean by jenkins or pull-tester?
392 2013-10-28 04:50:46 <gavinandresen> pull-tester
393 2013-10-28 04:50:54 <gavinandresen> .. by the time it gets into git HEAD it is too late
394 2013-10-28 04:51:12 <BlueMatt> pull-tester needs an initial "looks ok" response and then a delayed full-test tests each commit + runs big reorg checks in block tester "LOOKS GOOD TO MERGE" response
395 2013-10-28 04:51:34 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: can pull-tester.py be made open source yet?
396 2013-10-28 04:51:44 <BlueMatt> arent all the important things in env vars by now?
397 2013-10-28 04:51:48 bizmark has joined
398 2013-10-28 04:51:51 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yes, it is in the tree under qa/pull-tester
399 2013-10-28 04:52:21 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: confusing because there is a pull-tester.sh and a pull-tester.py thereâ¦. ah well
400 2013-10-28 04:52:26 <BlueMatt> oops, so when I edit it on the server its evil...
401 2013-10-28 04:52:38 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: e.g. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3170
402 2013-10-28 04:52:59 <gavinandresen> ok to edit it on the server, just please submit changes through github
403 2013-10-28 04:53:16 <BlueMatt> will do
404 2013-10-28 04:53:29 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: OH GOD that would take hours
405 2013-10-28 04:53:33 dgolds has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
406 2013-10-28 04:53:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea so? doesn't have to run for every pull. :P
407 2013-10-28 04:53:58 <BlueMatt> we need a new test infrastructure...
408 2013-10-28 04:54:10 <BlueMatt> pull-tester+jenkins distinction aint gonna work no longer methinks
409 2013-10-28 04:54:48 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: mmm. We've got three different environments for building stuff (pull-tester chroot, jenkins, and gitian)â¦. should be just gitian
410 2013-10-28 04:55:24 <gmaxwell> its a test we could run once prior to release (I've been doing a similar test prior to release: I always reindex the chain during RC ... but that wouldn't have caught a disconnect only bug), though I think we should just run it constantly and add computing power as required.
411 2013-10-28 04:55:30 <BlueMatt> yea, but you still need infrastructure to run gitian with different flags for all-tests, some-tests, tests-for-each-commit-on-master, test-run-daily, etc
412 2013-10-28 04:57:31 <davec> BlueMatt/gmaxwell: Yes that is the script I added - invalid opcode in a dead execution branch - I don't belive TD has added it though yet since it's against your branch
413 2013-10-28 04:57:53 <BlueMatt> davec: if its on my branch itl get run on pull-tester
414 2013-10-28 04:57:54 <Luke-Jr> miner.c:2434:2: warning: format â%xâ expects argument of type âunsigned intâ, but argument 4 has type âunsigned intâ [-Wformat=] <-- wtf GCC?
415 2013-10-28 04:58:02 <BlueMatt> davec: getting into master for block-tester doesnt really matter
416 2013-10-28 04:59:49 <davec> BlueMatt: aye, I don't think he's merged it over though last time I looked - checking now
417 2013-10-28 05:00:36 <BlueMatt> it is now
418 2013-10-28 05:00:47 <BlueMatt> I hadnt had a chance to get the whole shebang working till yesterday
419 2013-10-28 05:01:10 <davec> ah great
420 2013-10-28 05:01:33 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, could you setup jenkins to run on AWS EC2 instances
421 2013-10-28 05:01:44 <phantomcircuit> like you spin up an EC2 instance just to run one test
422 2013-10-28 05:01:44 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: if I get it running at all, maybe
423 2013-10-28 05:01:51 <warren> sigh. 50% speed on one core isn't enough. died again.
424 2013-10-28 05:02:09 <phantomcircuit> warren, pull the keyboard off and point a desktop fan at it
425 2013-10-28 05:02:10 <phantomcircuit> :/
426 2013-10-28 05:02:12 <phantomcircuit> (seriously)
427 2013-10-28 05:02:25 <warren> phantomcircuit: I did before, that 10,000 BTU A/C, to render a video
428 2013-10-28 05:03:11 <warren> I'm open to buying a new laptop, but nothing appears to be much better.
429 2013-10-28 05:03:20 <BlueMatt> warren: get a desktop...
430 2013-10-28 05:03:27 <warren> BlueMatt: moving soon...
431 2013-10-28 05:03:34 <BlueMatt> laptop for mobile stuff, move important things to desktop
432 2013-10-28 05:03:35 <warren> expensive to ship things from Hawaii
433 2013-10-28 05:03:49 <BlueMatt> warren: you dont have to take it out of the box, just keep it in the motherboard box as a case
434 2013-10-28 05:03:51 <BlueMatt> (its what I do)
435 2013-10-28 05:04:00 <warren> heh
436 2013-10-28 05:04:03 <BlueMatt> 1 motherboard box + psu is pretty small
437 2013-10-28 05:04:20 <warren> with six pcie cables and ards
438 2013-10-28 05:04:38 <BlueMatt> what are you doing, gpu mining?
439 2013-10-28 05:05:15 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, initial sync
440 2013-10-28 05:05:15 <phantomcircuit> lol
441 2013-10-28 05:05:41 <phantomcircuit> warren, just give up and buy two laptops, a desktop replacement and a mobile one
442 2013-10-28 05:05:56 <warren> what's funny, litecoind doesn't overheat this laptop
443 2013-10-28 05:06:05 * BlueMatt just ran resync on his desktop in <4 hours
444 2013-10-28 05:06:08 <warren> something to do with "scrypt is too slow" and "no transactions to verify"
445 2013-10-28 05:06:12 <BlueMatt> and the disk is like 5 years old
446 2013-10-28 05:06:28 <Luke-Jr> warren: you've finally found a use case for litecoin!
447 2013-10-28 05:06:34 <Luke-Jr> "doesn't destroy crummy hardware"
448 2013-10-28 05:06:34 <warren> Luke-Jr: yeah!
449 2013-10-28 05:06:42 <Luke-Jr> lol
450 2013-10-28 05:06:49 <warren> Luke-Jr: I never claimed Litecoin is good.
451 2013-10-28 05:06:55 <warren> I just made it less bad.
452 2013-10-28 05:07:00 <Luke-Jr> XD
453 2013-10-28 05:07:30 <warren> I think all software is bad.
454 2013-10-28 05:07:53 mbelshe has joined
455 2013-10-28 05:08:34 <dobry-den> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#headers says that block_header[] items may be greater than 81bytes because they have a var_int (txn_count).
456 2013-10-28 05:08:51 <dobry-den> But every txn_count I get is 0 as it says on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Block_Headers
457 2013-10-28 05:10:22 <CodeShark> that field is not used
458 2013-10-28 05:11:15 <dobry-den> Is the wiki entry wrong or am I misunderstanding?
459 2013-10-28 05:13:06 <dobry-den> It goes on to specify that miners do get block headers with a txn_count that does depict actual txn-count. But only miners get that version of the packet
460 2013-10-28 05:13:27 <dobry-den> Er, it says the other way around - that it's miners that receive 0 txn_count
461 2013-10-28 05:16:14 <CodeShark> the wiki entry is wrong
462 2013-10-28 05:16:49 <CodeShark> or rather, the tx count is not used at all in hashing
463 2013-10-28 05:18:02 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
464 2013-10-28 05:18:34 <davec> the hash is the first 80 bytes (version 4, prevhash 32, merkle 32, ts 4, bits 4, nonce 4)
465 2013-10-28 05:19:25 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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467 2013-10-28 05:20:25 <warren> hmm.... now I can't connect anything to RPC
468 2013-10-28 05:21:51 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ok, new version of pull tester all set up without the large reorg tests (thus no tmpfs needed)...however, now the pull must be merged before pull-tester can run on other pulls
469 2013-10-28 05:23:50 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ok. It will run on itself, though, right?
470 2013-10-28 05:23:58 <gavinandresen> (and "the pull" is 3164?)
471 2013-10-28 05:24:06 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: its running on 3164 now, but aside from that its paused
472 2013-10-28 05:24:19 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: cool. If it succeeds on itself, I will pull it.
473 2013-10-28 05:24:53 <gavinandresen> (and we'll fix it if it breaks on other things)
474 2013-10-28 05:26:07 <BlueMatt> ok, Ill look at re-enabling jenkins too
475 2013-10-28 05:28:13 Applicat_ has joined
476 2013-10-28 05:31:01 <BlueMatt> aaaannnnddd...pull-tester success
477 2013-10-28 05:31:14 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
478 2013-10-28 05:31:32 <warren> laptop died again. Screw this. I'm doing dev in a fast VM.
479 2013-10-28 05:31:41 <BlueMatt> warren: desktop.
480 2013-10-28 05:31:47 <BlueMatt> they're dirt cheap...
481 2013-10-28 05:32:00 <warren> BlueMatt: no time to deal with a desktop, and I want less stuff to move
482 2013-10-28 05:33:12 agricocb has joined
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487 2013-10-28 05:45:39 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: thanks
488 2013-10-28 05:46:00 <warren> maybe I can change the threshold temperature where the computer kills itself...
489 2013-10-28 05:46:02 <BlueMatt> pull-tester running again, I likely broke it all, so ping me when you find the bugs :)
490 2013-10-28 05:46:25 <BlueMatt> warren: if you have software doing it, it usually just scales down, there is one thats in-hardware that you cant touch
491 2013-10-28 05:46:29 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: thank YOU very much for all the pull-tester work
492 2013-10-28 05:46:44 <BlueMatt> dont thank me yet, wait till I get jenkins working :p
493 2013-10-28 05:46:54 dlidstrom has joined
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496 2013-10-28 05:48:11 <warren> um... I have no RPC port listening at all
497 2013-10-28 05:48:13 <warren> [warren@caprica bitcoin]$ netstat -ln |grep 833
498 2013-10-28 05:48:13 <warren> tcp 0 0 0.0.0.0:8333 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN
499 2013-10-28 05:48:13 <warren> tcp6 0 0 :::8333 :::* LISTEN
500 2013-10-28 05:48:20 <warren> daemon=1 server=1 should do it right?
501 2013-10-28 05:49:38 debiantoruser has joined
502 2013-10-28 05:49:40 <Tril> warren: you need - rpcuser, rpcpassword, rpcallowip set
503 2013-10-28 05:50:10 <Tril> rpcport for good measure
504 2013-10-28 05:50:47 <warren> I have rpcuser and rpcpassword which should be good enough for localhost only
505 2013-10-28 05:51:00 <Tril> rpcallowip=127.0.0.1
506 2013-10-28 05:51:46 <Tril> it should listen when you do that
507 2013-10-28 05:52:14 <warren> "kill" is also failing to kill bitcoind
508 2013-10-28 05:52:18 <warren> only kill -9 works
509 2013-10-28 05:52:29 asuk has joined
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512 2013-10-28 05:52:45 <Tril> it takes a long time to shutdown, especially if it's still starting up
513 2013-10-28 05:53:19 <warren> it's struggling to sync the block chain
514 2013-10-28 05:53:28 <warren> I'm pointing a AC unit at it right now
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537 2013-10-28 06:40:36 <Phoebus> bitcoin-q left open for another 24 hours, data dir is 11.4GB, still not caught up. Displays no progress... out of sync wallet etc. Any ideas?
538 2013-10-28 06:41:03 cads has joined
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544 2013-10-28 06:50:30 <MC1984> warren im willing to bet there is somthing seriously wrong with the thermal interface of cpu and heatsink
545 2013-10-28 06:53:06 <warren> MC1984: this is my third CPU and HSF for this laptop, all three were just as bad.
546 2013-10-28 06:53:34 <BlueMatt> MC1984: it is a laptop....there's by far more often than not a design issue there
547 2013-10-28 06:54:01 <warren> It's perfectly fine! (If I have an A/C blowing into the intake.)
548 2013-10-28 06:54:47 btcbtc has joined
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550 2013-10-28 06:56:48 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
551 2013-10-28 06:58:02 <MC1984> ive never heard anything like it
552 2013-10-28 06:58:17 <MC1984> most intel cpus will turn themselves down before catching fire
553 2013-10-28 06:59:36 <BlueMatt> or, if they turn themselves down and still are gonna hit 100, they just poweroff
554 2013-10-28 07:00:29 <MC1984> have you considered there may be something wrong with the chassis to that the heatsink retention mechanism is bent and not touching the cpu
555 2013-10-28 07:01:14 <warren> MC1984: this laptop has been rebuilt 3 times by the depot due to different hardware defects
556 2013-10-28 07:01:19 <warren> I was just screwed in purchasing this model
557 2013-10-28 07:01:24 <warren> other owners of this model have similar issues
558 2013-10-28 07:01:34 Lee__ has joined
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560 2013-10-28 07:02:03 <MC1984> what model is it?
561 2013-10-28 07:02:10 <MC1984> thinkpads are usually solid
562 2013-10-28 07:02:41 * BlueMatt has a thinkpad that is literally always down-throttled because its overheated
563 2013-10-28 07:02:45 <BlueMatt> relatively recent t420 too
564 2013-10-28 07:03:02 <BlueMatt> any devs awake that wanna merge https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3174
565 2013-10-28 07:03:16 deepc0re has joined
566 2013-10-28 07:03:53 <MC1984> ive got a y500 and its solid
567 2013-10-28 07:04:15 <warren> MC1984: Thinkpad T410s ... super thin and light, thin and light on the HSF too...
568 2013-10-28 07:04:22 <MC1984> i only managed to make the cpu thermal throttle by caning it with prime95 + furmark on a 40% gpu overclock
569 2013-10-28 07:04:29 <warren> it seems they fixed this problem with T420s
570 2013-10-28 07:04:30 <MC1984> thats an extreme workload
571 2013-10-28 07:04:31 rdymac has quit (Quit: bai bai \(^w^) ZNC - http://znc.in)
572 2013-10-28 07:04:45 <BlueMatt> and Ive gotten the motherboard replaced once and manually reapplied thermal paste and checked the thermal coupling several times
573 2013-10-28 07:05:26 <MC1984> are the x20x series ok? Looking at a cheapo one for mother
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576 2013-10-28 07:06:26 <BlueMatt> if you shy away from one of the higher-end cpus (ie the cpu upgrade), you should be ok
577 2013-10-28 07:06:59 <MC1984> either core2duo or i5, somewhere over 2ghz
578 2013-10-28 07:11:48 <MC1984> http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-Thinkpad-T410-Notebook-Optimus.42580.0.html
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591 2013-10-28 07:40:34 <Luke-Jr> anyone checking 085 setup.exe on SF already?
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595 2013-10-28 07:50:20 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: if nothing else, I get the right hash
596 2013-10-28 07:50:27 <BlueMatt> no idea if its valid, dont have wine on here (yet)
597 2013-10-28 07:50:43 <Luke-Jr> meh, if it matches the gitian hashes, it's fine I'm sure
598 2013-10-28 07:50:57 <BlueMatt> well, the signed hashes, not gitian
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601 2013-10-28 07:53:25 <BlueMatt> wumpus: lol, I didnt think anyone was awake...that pull was (mostly) untested...lets see if it works
602 2013-10-28 07:53:43 Arnavion has joined
603 2013-10-28 07:54:27 <wumpus> BlueMatt: lol, yeah I just assumed it was ok the changes looked sane, well indeed let's see
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606 2013-10-28 07:55:14 <BlueMatt> shit, forgot rpcport...
607 2013-10-28 07:55:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: Is what he's saying clear to you? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320090.0
608 2013-10-28 07:56:17 <wumpus> I'm pretty easy with merging pulls that only involve tests, as you'd expect them to be tested :P
609 2013-10-28 07:59:13 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it's clear to me; for private keys we add a 01 byte to signify it's to be used with a compressed key
610 2013-10-28 07:59:51 <wumpus> gmaxwell: as we use a 'add to the end' convention for the private keys, and 'prefix' convention for the public keys, and the datas have the same size, there is a potential ambiguity if somehow one gets in the place of the other
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612 2013-10-28 08:01:30 <wumpus> it would have been more consistent to always put the marker byte at the beginning and use a non-overlappng range for private and public key types
613 2013-10-28 08:02:06 <gmaxwell> wumpus: we don't have any base 58 encoded public key types at all.
614 2013-10-28 08:02:47 <wumpus> then again, it is usually quite clear whether some object is a private or public key (from the encoding, or otherwise) so it's not a very important issue
615 2013-10-28 08:02:53 <wumpus> right
616 2013-10-28 08:03:20 <warren> watchonly for 0.8.5. is working nice
617 2013-10-28 08:03:37 <wumpus> I doubt that this ever caused any problems for anyone
618 2013-10-28 08:03:38 <warren> I'm making this for bitcoin to help the Coinpunk guy have a stable client
619 2013-10-28 08:04:45 <gmaxwell> wumpus: we also have the type prefixs when in the base 58 encoding which makes them unambigious.
620 2013-10-28 08:05:07 <gmaxwell> it sounds like he wants an additional prefix on the non-base58 data?
621 2013-10-28 08:09:19 <wumpus> I don't like his 'trivial algorithm' at the end very much though, it still very much relies on the size and encoding of the data to determine the type
622 2013-10-28 08:09:31 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ok, noooww you can merge it
623 2013-10-28 08:09:32 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/b2b7bf4bf9b3a7b1c4bb8470289da9180da9f13b
624 2013-10-28 08:09:35 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3175
625 2013-10-28 08:09:37 <BlueMatt> sorry
626 2013-10-28 08:10:35 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well I thought he wanted to define some encoding-independent scheme, but I'm not entirely sure anymore :-)
627 2013-10-28 08:12:14 <BlueMatt> ok, Im taking a wild guess that jenkins wont fail now, so Im gonna enable irc notifications
628 2013-10-28 08:12:24 <BlueMatt> if it fails, have fun with those tonight...
629 2013-10-28 08:12:25 * BlueMatt -> bed
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631 2013-10-28 08:13:16 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I think the issue is that 'sx' has adopted a weird architecture where base58 decoding is like a seperate commandline tool, and then you're stuck with untyped hex that its passing around.
632 2013-10-28 08:14:25 <Luke-Jr> wtf for? :/
633 2013-10-28 08:14:34 <Luke-Jr> base58 is an obvious case for a simple shared library
634 2013-10-28 08:14:35 <wumpus> gmaxwell: that's a likely explanation
635 2013-10-28 08:14:56 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: because it's attempted to factor out all the parts of bitcoin in order to more expose it for power users.
636 2013-10-28 08:15:14 <gmaxwell> Which is certantly a notion I'm sympathic to... more unixy.
637 2013-10-28 08:15:28 <gmaxwell> Though that doesn't mean that any particular factorization is a good idea. :)
638 2013-10-28 08:15:37 <Luke-Jr> sigh
639 2013-10-28 08:15:54 sustrik has joined
640 2013-10-28 08:16:04 <Luke-Jr> as if hex is any less an encoding than base58
641 2013-10-28 08:16:43 <wumpus> well, yes, conceptually it'd make sense to consistently label the raw hex data with a marker byte at the beginning instead of rely on the data length and encoding to convey meaning
642 2013-10-28 08:16:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well, it might matter if we used base58 for anything which was interesting to manipulate directly, like transaction data.
643 2013-10-28 08:17:23 <wumpus> but I'm afraid that ship has kind of sailed, and introducing more types of encoding doesn't make it easier
644 2013-10-28 08:18:03 <wumpus> it just means that there are even more options...
645 2013-10-28 08:19:10 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, that was just the only thing we could do to support compressed keys in a way that was both backwards compatible _and_ didn't require allocating another base58 type value.
646 2013-10-28 08:19:23 <gmaxwell> I don't recall why we didn't want to allocate another base58 type value though.
647 2013-10-28 08:20:09 <gmaxwell> (sipa would remember, no doubt)
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651 2013-10-28 08:24:22 <warren> sipa: not having luck with subtree
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664 2013-10-28 08:35:38 <sipa> gmaxwell: a new base58 version for what?
665 2013-10-28 08:36:23 <warren> sipa: tried many variants of git subtree pull -P src/leveldb ... and nothing is achieving the goal
666 2013-10-28 08:36:58 <sipa> did you add and fetch the leveldb repo as a remote?
667 2013-10-28 08:37:06 <warren> yes
668 2013-10-28 08:37:31 rdymac has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
669 2013-10-28 08:38:30 <sipa> oh, my mistake
670 2013-10-28 08:38:41 <sipa> pull is for when you're pulling from another repo
671 2013-10-28 08:38:51 <sipa> if it is within one repo, merge should suffice
672 2013-10-28 08:38:58 jtimon has joined
673 2013-10-28 08:39:21 <warren> I want the leveldb-bitcoin-1.13 tag?
674 2013-10-28 08:39:27 rdymac has joined
675 2013-10-28 08:39:44 <warren> hmm
676 2013-10-28 08:40:38 <sipa> git subtree merge --squash -P src/leveldb leveldb-bitcoin-1.13
677 2013-10-28 08:40:44 <sipa> indeed
678 2013-10-28 08:41:29 <warren> that did it!
679 2013-10-28 08:41:32 <warren> thanks
680 2013-10-28 08:41:57 <warren> we'll have some widespread testing of 1.13 long before 0.9
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705 2013-10-28 09:39:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|warren: have you considered liquid cooling?
706 2013-10-28 09:39:43 murkmans has joined
707 2013-10-28 09:40:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hook up an external keyboard, mouse, and monitor, and dunk the laptop in a tank of mineral oil
708 2013-10-28 09:40:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Disclaimer: I've never done this myself. Research before attempting.)
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711 2013-10-28 09:42:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think I saw something at some point about this guy who overclocked some old 100-something MHz processor to over 2 GHz, with a bathtub of glycerin and a disassembled fridge
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726 2013-10-28 10:07:00 <MrDaneelOlivaw> morning!
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731 2013-10-28 10:18:58 <SomeoneWeird> michagogo|cloud, don't stick hdds in oil
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739 2013-10-28 10:27:27 <wumpus> I'm getting so friggin annoyed here... can someone slap pjotr_n on the forums for me please https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=306923.msg3426364#msg3426364
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807 2013-10-28 12:02:17 <monode> hi!
808 2013-10-28 12:02:29 <monode> is it still feasible to do CPU mining on the testnet?
809 2013-10-28 12:02:42 <killerstorm> yes
810 2013-10-28 12:03:02 <killerstorm> it is locked to difficulty of 1
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813 2013-10-28 12:11:12 <killerstorm> Hi. We are looking for Python programmers who can help with colored coins client (NGCCC) development. Currently we offer 0.25 BTC/hr (limited time offer!). Easy and small tasks are available.
814 2013-10-28 12:11:49 <killerstorm> If interested please pm me or join #bitcoinx
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818 2013-10-28 12:17:11 <sipa> killerstorm: eh, not at all
819 2013-10-28 12:17:17 <sipa> testnet difficulty is around 18000
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821 2013-10-28 12:18:10 <killerstorm> wow. it is reset from time to time, right?
822 2013-10-28 12:18:55 <sipa> there have been 3 testnet instances
823 2013-10-28 12:19:10 <sipa> and there is a special rule that allows creating a difficulty 1 block if there hasn't been one in 20 minutes
824 2013-10-28 12:19:18 <Happzz> colored coins client?
825 2013-10-28 12:19:33 _ingsoc has joined
826 2013-10-28 12:19:47 <sipa> and there is a bug that if this special-difficulty-1 block happens at retarger (every 2016 blocks), the difficulty resets permanently to 1
827 2013-10-28 12:19:55 <killerstorm> ah, ok.
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829 2013-10-28 12:20:03 <sipa> well, not permanently, just acvtually resets
830 2013-10-28 12:20:10 <sipa> rather than allowing a 1-time exception
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832 2013-10-28 12:20:33 <killerstorm> I've been mining for a couple of weeks, got 200 coins so far. I guess I started before the difficulty jump.
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835 2013-10-28 12:21:34 <killerstorm> colored coins intro: https://github.com/bitcoinx/colored-coin-tools/wiki/colored_coins_intro
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862 2013-10-28 12:56:31 <jgarzik> mornin'
863 2013-10-28 12:56:35 <jgarzik> yee gads
864 2013-10-28 12:56:58 <jgarzik> A discussion of error codes could not be more boring ;p
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872 2013-10-28 12:59:39 <petertodd> killerstorm: didn't like nSequence-based ordering?
873 2013-10-28 13:00:02 <killerstorm> Sorry for the lack of reply. I like it.
874 2013-10-28 13:00:37 <petertodd> killerstorm: likewise. Cool, I think it's the best I've come up with, and it's safe to use nSequence like that.
875 2013-10-28 13:00:45 <petertodd> killerstorm: (by using it, you'll make it safe in the future too...)
876 2013-10-28 13:01:39 <petertodd> killerstorm: unfortunately nSequence is the *only* data stored in a CTxIn that we can both set arbitrarily, and is signed :(
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878 2013-10-28 13:02:32 <petertodd> killerstorm: everything else doesn't meet that criteria, which means you can do a CoinJoin'd colored coin transaction - useful to obscure who actually bought it.
879 2013-10-28 13:02:32 <killerstorm> Well, it's possible to use least-significant bits. But that's uglier, I guess.
880 2013-10-28 13:02:52 <killerstorm> One dude found a way how to use lsb without problems with central registry.
881 2013-10-28 13:02:53 <petertodd> killerstorm: right, CTxOuts are signed, but they may be set to their values by someone else.
882 2013-10-28 13:03:01 <petertodd> killerstorm: how so?
883 2013-10-28 13:03:31 <killerstorm> each color has a set of tags, like (13, 37, 55, ...)
884 2013-10-28 13:03:55 <killerstorm> when we need to use several colors in one transaction, we find tags which are unambiguous.
885 2013-10-28 13:04:08 <killerstorm> basically, from a symmetric difference of tag sets of all involved colors.
886 2013-10-28 13:04:20 <petertodd> killerstorm: hmm... sounds kinda complex :)
887 2013-10-28 13:04:50 <killerstorm> I wouldn't call it very complex,but this would require largish "color definitions".
888 2013-10-28 13:05:48 <killerstorm> do you think clients should implement infinite-precision arithmetic, or that 2^64 is enough for everybody?
889 2013-10-28 13:05:51 <petertodd> killerstorm: I dunno, given that there isn't a version of colored coins that doesn't require tx's all the way back to the genesis txout, I'm not sure I see the advantage of using anything but the nSequence method. Maybe one day we'll be able to write scriptPubKeys that constrain their outputs, but that's a long way off.
890 2013-10-28 13:06:17 <petertodd> killerstorm: Ha, 2^64 is probably fine - use the lshift rshift by two trick I told you about.
891 2013-10-28 13:06:20 <killerstorm> Well, one advantage is that it is very easy to detect transactions with nSequence :)
892 2013-10-28 13:06:38 <petertodd> killerstorm: Sure, but it's a completely standard part of the protocol!
893 2013-10-28 13:07:31 <petertodd> killerstorm: Now if that is an issue, I guess you're stick with LSB ordering, maybe with a bit of crypto hiding to let you brute-force LSB's that others in a coinjoin aren't using.
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896 2013-10-28 13:09:52 <petertodd> killerstorm: also, keep in mind that with OP_RETURN <data> you can store your txin->txout mapping there.
897 2013-10-28 13:10:35 <petertodd> killerstorm: heck, do it as either nSequence is used, or OP_RETURN <data> is used - that should cover everything
898 2013-10-28 13:11:44 <petertodd> if devs get nasty and try to block that, you use a pubkeyhash output, and even with P2SH^2 you can easily brute-force the first few bits to store your color mapping data
899 2013-10-28 13:12:08 <killerstorm> Eh, why not order-based coloring?
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901 2013-10-28 13:12:33 <killerstorm> It isn't exactly undetectable, but detecting it isn't easy.
902 2013-10-28 13:13:00 <petertodd> killerstorm: that works fine too, but as I understand it, putting that in an arbitrary coinjoin tx gets a bit ugly
903 2013-10-28 13:16:04 <killerstorm> Yes, that's true. I'm not sure that 'ability to coinjon' is a major criterion.
904 2013-10-28 13:16:22 <killerstorm> Anyway, coloring per se is a small part of the client code.
905 2013-10-28 13:16:43 <killerstorm> So it isn't a problem to implement several versions, although eventually it is better to settle on one.
906 2013-10-28 13:17:28 <petertodd> Yeah, regardless there are a lot more UI issues. (taking user interface as broadly as possible)
907 2013-10-28 13:18:27 <petertodd> One thing that I was thinking, is in practice SPV w/ color-coins is probably not a big deal: it's easy to write an SPV client that follows the colors from the genesis outputs, just like you would with any other wallet transaction.
908 2013-10-28 13:19:25 <petertodd> Yes, there's a bunch of bandwidth, but do the math: it's really not so bad given there's that 1MB/block upper limit anyway.
909 2013-10-28 13:19:42 <petertodd> I don't see people "daytrading" colored coins... :)
910 2013-10-28 13:20:52 oPen_syLar has joined
911 2013-10-28 13:20:58 <jgarzik> petertodd, why not?
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915 2013-10-28 13:21:07 <jgarzik> petertodd, if they represent a stock or bond, its inevitable
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917 2013-10-28 13:22:00 <killerstorm> The problem with SPV client is that it isn't possible to prove lack of spend.
918 2013-10-28 13:22:33 <petertodd> killerstorm: but you don't have too! just make up a buy transaction in a trust free way, if it gets mined, that's all the evidence you need that the coin wasn't spent
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921 2013-10-28 13:23:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: yes, but my point is there are sufficient limits on the day-trading due to fees that a ccoin will likely still be just a few hundred megs to download at most
922 2013-10-28 13:23:34 <killerstorm> OK, well, if done properly the only problem is DoS attack on thin clients.
923 2013-10-28 13:23:39 <petertodd> jgarzik: the real issue is even a bit of trading is more than enough to kill full nodes disk IO bandwidth...
924 2013-10-28 13:24:06 <killerstorm> Basically someone tells you that coins is of color X and you have to scan a lot of data to prove that it isn't. Maybe not a real issue.
925 2013-10-28 13:24:08 <petertodd> jgarzik: IE, picture each ccoin SPV client doing a full re-scan of the blockchain, just because someone added a coin
926 2013-10-28 13:24:34 <jgarzik> petertodd, SPV is kinda pointless with any layered scheme
927 2013-10-28 13:24:41 <petertodd> killerstorm: yup, and in that case I think the solution is to have a UI where it can have ccoin tx data added to it in a big dump
928 2013-10-28 13:25:00 <petertodd> jgarzik: what do you mean? SPV is great for layered schemes - saves having to actually do any of the work!
929 2013-10-28 13:25:09 <petertodd> jgarzik: just make sure your scheme is bloom filter comaptible
930 2013-10-28 13:25:28 <sipa> petertodd: huh? a colored coin fullnode would keep track of color in its UTXO set, i expect? why would it need to go rescan?
931 2013-10-28 13:25:54 <petertodd> sipa: I mean the rescan required when a user adds a new coin to their wallet
932 2013-10-28 13:26:30 <sipa> petertodd: if it's colored, i expect that the wallet somehow gets told a proof of the color, by showing the history
933 2013-10-28 13:26:30 <petertodd> sipa: of course, if buys and sells have sufficient metadata attached, you don't actually need to rescan, but people will want to do that to see the whole state of the coin I'll bet
934 2013-10-28 13:26:52 <killerstorm> petertodd: big dump doesn't help here, we cannot be sure that we have all colored UTXOs, so we have to do a backward scan, and backward scan might mean scanning a lot of data.
935 2013-10-28 13:27:31 <petertodd> killerstorm: why do you care about having all of them? make the client spit out a file containing proof that the TXO being sold is colored, and give that file to the person you're selling too
936 2013-10-28 13:27:48 <petertodd> *UTXO being sold
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944 2013-10-28 13:34:44 <melvster> anyone know how i can take a double sha256 hash of an 80 byte hex string in *javascript* ?
945 2013-10-28 13:34:47 CircusPeanut has joined
946 2013-10-28 13:35:41 <melvster> id like my block explorer to be able to verify the hash is OK
947 2013-10-28 13:35:45 <melvster> in a block header
948 2013-10-28 13:36:10 <sipa> well first convert the hex string to binary
949 2013-10-28 13:36:10 <sipa> and then take the hash twice :)
950 2013-10-28 13:36:24 <melvster> ive got all the raw hex stings out ... i just need a library that will do the sha256
951 2013-10-28 13:36:34 <melvster> i did the little endian stuff too
952 2013-10-28 13:36:37 <sipa> so find a library that can do sha256
953 2013-10-28 13:36:43 <sipa> there are tons, probably
954 2013-10-28 13:36:52 <jgarzik> melvster, bitcoinjs-lib
955 2013-10-28 13:36:57 <melvster> ah ok, thx ...
956 2013-10-28 13:36:58 <jgarzik> melvster, all browser-OK JS
957 2013-10-28 13:37:06 <killerstorm> petertodd: Certainly not a major problem if we have a protocol which allows seller and buyer to negotiate a particular coin, but then ordinary addresses do not work. So maybe it is an UI problem. Basically it's OK if we remove a concept of addresses from UI.
958 2013-10-28 13:37:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|SomeoneWeird: that's why I put that disclaimer there :-)
959 2013-10-28 13:37:27 <melvster> yes i know ... you got to be careful with js, the max int is 2^52 but if you do shifts it becomes 2^31
960 2013-10-28 13:37:48 <melvster> will look thx
961 2013-10-28 13:37:58 <sipa> killerstorm: i think that's exactly what you need to do
962 2013-10-28 13:37:58 <sipa> addresses are too unidirectional
963 2013-10-28 13:38:08 <jgarzik> melvster, all of those simple things are long since solved
964 2013-10-28 13:38:11 <petertodd> killerstorm: yes, I think that's exactly what you have to do
965 2013-10-28 13:38:16 <sipa> sha256 only needs 32 bit ints
966 2013-10-28 13:38:19 <petertodd> killerstorm: er, what sipa said :)
967 2013-10-28 13:38:21 <jgarzik> melvster, bitcoinjs-lib is certainly hash safe, does ECDSA, etc.
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969 2013-10-28 13:41:08 <melvster> ty!
970 2013-10-28 13:41:13 <jgarzik> !@#!#!@#!@#!@#
971 2013-10-28 13:41:13 <gribble> Error: "@#!#!@#!@#!@#" is not a valid command.
972 2013-10-28 13:41:22 <jgarzik> have we not yet fixed that validation problem?
973 2013-10-28 13:41:30 * jgarzik looks around for sipa/gmaxwell PR that fixes
974 2013-10-28 13:41:42 <jgarzik> testnet is still broken, here
975 2013-10-28 13:42:01 <killerstorm> Yep, removing addresses was my long-term plan, but I want to keep them at start when there isn't enough infrastructure, and also they are familiar to Bitcoin users...
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986 2013-10-28 13:57:01 <TD> jgarzik: testnet is always broken :) i'm thinking of setting up a little public regtest network with a button served over HTTP that makes a new block
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989 2013-10-28 13:59:39 <skinnkavaj> How is bitcoin protected from ddos attacks?
990 2013-10-28 13:59:54 <skinnkavaj> Is it because, to ddos you need to pay transaction fees and it gets too expensive to do?
991 2013-10-28 14:00:54 <helo> that's one approach
992 2013-10-28 14:01:16 <TD> there are lots of ways to DoS bitcoin unfortunately. some angles are mitigated through various fees and thresholds, others are not
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995 2013-10-28 14:03:02 <null> i wonder why we haven't seen attempts yet
996 2013-10-28 14:04:31 <jgarzik> TD, I disagree
997 2013-10-28 14:04:39 <jgarzik> TD, I test with public testnet all the time
998 2013-10-28 14:05:03 <TD> it'll probably work better for me once i add a bunch of seed nodes. i've found the testnet DNS seeds to often return just a single IP
999 2013-10-28 14:05:09 <TD> which may or may not work
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1001 2013-10-28 14:08:37 <TD> i dislike waiting for blocks anyway :)
1002 2013-10-28 14:08:46 <jgarzik> TD, just build up a good peers.dat and the rest should follow. pretty much Just Works here, modulo the odd bug that also impacts mainnet... ;p
1003 2013-10-28 14:09:03 <TD> yeah but i don't use bitcoind, right? i'm connecting bitcoinj to the testnet, and it suffers without working DNS seeds
1004 2013-10-28 14:12:41 <TD> argh, robocoin prints out a private key onto a receipt?
1005 2013-10-28 14:12:49 <TD> it has a palm print scanner but not a camera to scan qrcodes?
1006 2013-10-28 14:13:19 <TD> oh, hmm, it seems to say it supports both. they just don't show it in the video?
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1009 2013-10-28 14:18:01 <petertodd> TD: consider that your lesson in centralized services :P
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1011 2013-10-28 14:20:46 <TD> heh
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1085 2013-10-28 16:08:41 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #429: STILL FAILING in 8 hr 44 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/429/
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1087 2013-10-28 16:09:22 <Apocalyptic> does getnewaddress RPC call require the wallet to be unlocked ?
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1089 2013-10-28 16:09:54 <Apocalyptic> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list says no, but bitcoin-qt requires me to unlock the wallet everytime i want to generate a new address
1090 2013-10-28 16:10:46 <Apocalyptic> I guess as long as the keypool is not exhausted it should be ok to get one with the wallet locked
1091 2013-10-28 16:11:34 Grouver has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/)
1092 2013-10-28 16:11:37 <sipa> Apocalyptic: exactly
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1094 2013-10-28 16:13:02 <Apocalyptic> sipa, so why does qt act that way ?
1095 2013-10-28 16:13:53 <sipa> ?
1096 2013-10-28 16:14:41 <Apocalyptic> bitcoin-qt requires me to unlock the wallet everytime i want to generate a new address
1097 2013-10-28 16:14:43 <phantomcircuit> Apocalyptic, seriously?
1098 2013-10-28 16:14:52 <Apocalyptic> i assume keypoolsize > 1
1099 2013-10-28 16:15:01 <sipa> you mean via the GUI, or via the console?
1100 2013-10-28 16:15:06 <Apocalyptic> via the GUI
1101 2013-10-28 16:15:19 <sipa> ah, no clue about that
1102 2013-10-28 16:15:25 <sipa> file an issue, or poke wumpus
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1105 2013-10-28 16:15:39 <Apocalyptic> will try via the console
1106 2013-10-28 16:17:21 <wumpus> filing an issue makes sense, yes
1107 2013-10-28 16:17:42 <sipa> the RPC code shouldn't force an unlocked wallet
1108 2013-10-28 16:17:49 <sipa> from what i can see
1109 2013-10-28 16:17:53 <wumpus> if there are still keys in the pool it shouldn't really request the wallet to be unlocked
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1112 2013-10-28 16:19:06 <wumpus> hm, cannot reproduce it, just created a receiving address with a locked wallet
1113 2013-10-28 16:19:10 <Apocalyptic> wumpus, yeah that's what i thought and confirmed by sipa, my keypool size is 100
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1115 2013-10-28 16:20:22 <sipa> i confirmed nothing
1116 2013-10-28 16:20:23 <Apocalyptic> via the GUI console it creates it with a locked one
1117 2013-10-28 16:20:29 <wumpus> "keypoolsize" : 98, that's after creating two receiving address through the GUI
1118 2013-10-28 16:21:03 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #430: STILL FAILING in 12 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/430/
1119 2013-10-28 16:21:12 <wumpus> but that's with the git version, maybe it changed since whatever version you're using
1120 2013-10-28 16:21:41 <Apocalyptic> so the issue seems to be only with the "New Address" button on the "Receive" tab
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1122 2013-10-28 16:22:06 <wumpus> so in 0.9 it will be fixed
1123 2013-10-28 16:23:06 <Apocalyptic> sipa, you confirmed that "as long as the keypool is not exhausted it should be ok to get one with the wallet locked"
1124 2013-10-28 16:23:12 <Apocalyptic> sorry if i was unclear
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1131 2013-10-28 16:37:53 <TD> david cameron is such an embarrassing fail of a prime minister
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1152 2013-10-28 16:59:03 <null> TD: yes. our angela is way better. "yo usa, you spyin' on my subjects? i guess i'll take a vacation." "yo obama, you spyin' on me? the fuck dude?!"
1153 2013-10-28 16:59:16 zer0def has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1154 2013-10-28 17:00:02 <TD> yep, still better. it appears cameron either wasn't spied or doesn't care if he was. presumably he's such a puppet of washington there's really no point in listening in
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1156 2013-10-28 17:00:45 <null> well. there's only de facto us colonies and terrorists.
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1160 2013-10-28 17:02:35 <TD> cameron is now explicitly threatening the Guardian
1161 2013-10-28 17:02:43 <TD> he doesn't appear to have actually read anything they published at all. what a tool.
1162 2013-10-28 17:03:07 <sipa> null, TD: ironical, the UK being a "colony" of the US :)
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1164 2013-10-28 17:03:21 <TD> the pendulum, it swings
1165 2013-10-28 17:03:28 <TD> btw you can't say ironical. only "ironic".
1166 2013-10-28 17:03:43 <sipa> thanks
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1168 2013-10-28 17:06:40 MiningBuddy is now known as MiningBuddy|AFK
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1174 2013-10-28 17:18:20 <phantomcircuit> TD, lies, ironical is now a word
1175 2013-10-28 17:18:49 <TD> since when?
1176 2013-10-28 17:19:22 <TD> ah
1177 2013-10-28 17:19:28 <TD> https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=ironic%2C+ironical&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cironic%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cironical%3B%2Cc0
1178 2013-10-28 17:19:43 <TD> sipa: i stand corrected. it seems "ironical" has always been a word, albiet one that is steadily falling out of use
1179 2013-10-28 17:19:58 <melvster> but https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=ironic%2C+ironical&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cironic%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cironical%3B%2Cc0
1180 2013-10-28 17:19:59 <TD> interestingly just "ironic" has been getting more popular for the last 100 years and peaked in ~1998.
1181 2013-10-28 17:20:06 <sipa> still, thanks for pointing out its uncommon usage :)
1182 2013-10-28 17:20:13 <melvster> oops
1183 2013-10-28 17:20:16 <melvster> lol
1184 2013-10-28 17:20:29 <TD> hmmm
1185 2013-10-28 17:20:49 <TD> seems the popularity of the word "ironic" peaked at the same time as Alanis Morisette used it to describe rain on her wedding day
1186 2013-10-28 17:21:11 <TD> probably people got the message at that point that things which are just unfortunate aren't really ironic, and stopped using the word :)
1187 2013-10-28 17:21:11 <petertodd> http://english.stackexchange.com/ <- lovely site design
1188 2013-10-28 17:21:32 <TD> yes that is rather nice
1189 2013-10-28 17:21:37 <sipa> a free ride when you've already paid
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1191 2013-10-28 17:25:47 <jgarzik> null, TD: this entire continuing saga is so droll. Surely as an engineer you have made the following pattern match: (1) NSA spies on everyone, worldwide. (2) for each country: { ggreenwald hypes "NSA spied on $country, including politicians!" }
1192 2013-10-28 17:26:24 <TD> yes watching the same thing happen over and over again is quite entertaining. except that in the UK we don't get to enjoy this because GCHQ does it instead, and that's not as much fun as the NSA doing it
1193 2013-10-28 17:26:41 <jgarzik> by this time next year, the tweets will have dwindled down to "zomg, NSA spied on Botswana and Bratislava secondary ministers!"
1194 2013-10-28 17:26:46 <TD> although Merkel seems to be seriously pissed off. I guess, growing up in the DDR, that is understandable
1195 2013-10-28 17:27:17 <TD> oh wow
1196 2013-10-28 17:27:17 <TD> https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=ironic%2Cironical&year_start=1800&year_end=2010&corpus=0&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cironic%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cironical%3B%2Cc0
1197 2013-10-28 17:27:23 <TD> if you expand it to 2010 the peak is even clearer
1198 2013-10-28 17:27:26 <TD> and ironical is making a comeback!
1199 2013-10-28 17:27:41 <sipa> \o/
1200 2013-10-28 17:27:42 <sipa> all thanks to me
1201 2013-10-28 17:27:44 <jgarzik> ugh. and so is "whinge"
1202 2013-10-28 17:27:54 <sipa> (unrelated, a person sitting next to me just uttered the word 'ironic')
1203 2013-10-28 17:27:59 <TD> lol
1204 2013-10-28 17:28:02 <TD> how ironic
1205 2013-10-28 17:28:03 <jgarzik> That's ironic.
1206 2013-10-28 17:28:06 <TD> don't you think?
1207 2013-10-28 17:28:13 <sipa> how ironical
1208 2013-10-28 17:28:21 <kjj> I'm curious if the she was targeted specifically (and why), or if they just happened to catch hers while they were busy capturing everyones calls
1209 2013-10-28 17:28:25 <TD> i need to iron some shirts tonight, actually
1210 2013-10-28 17:28:31 btcbtc_ has joined
1211 2013-10-28 17:28:34 <TD> kjj: specifically targeted for a decade, apparenty
1212 2013-10-28 17:29:06 <kjj> I see wild theories tossed around about why they would do that
1213 2013-10-28 17:29:31 <TD> she's a foreign head of state, probably the most important leader in europe. is any other reason needed? i mean these guys weren't exactly choosey
1214 2013-10-28 17:29:44 <TD> they went for 35 different world leaders
1215 2013-10-28 17:29:46 <sipa> TD: "Baldric, do you understand what irony is?" - "Sure, it's like goldy or bronzy, only it's made of iron."
1216 2013-10-28 17:29:51 <kjj> my views on the petrodollar nonsense are well known, but just because a theory is false doesn't mean it can't find believers in high places
1217 2013-10-28 17:29:51 <TD> hahaha
1218 2013-10-28 17:29:59 btcbtc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1219 2013-10-28 17:30:02 <TD> i need to watch blackadder again. i've seen them all 100 times but it never gets old
1220 2013-10-28 17:30:29 bbrian has joined
1221 2013-10-28 17:30:33 <kjj> TD: a few of them got tedious, but still had good bits
1222 2013-10-28 17:30:45 sustrik has joined
1223 2013-10-28 17:30:55 <TD> watching the last episode was a part of my high school history lessons
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1231 2013-10-28 17:38:16 <phantomcircuit> torify ssh root@4adioeehbbq4bh3m.onion
1232 2013-10-28 17:38:19 <phantomcircuit> password "p"
1233 2013-10-28 17:38:30 <TD> lol
1234 2013-10-28 17:38:34 <phantomcircuit> bet you cant figure out that machines actual ip
1235 2013-10-28 17:38:36 <TD> security! you're doing it wrong!
1236 2013-10-28 17:38:41 nexes has joined
1237 2013-10-28 17:39:17 <phantomcircuit> oops forgot to install torify inside the vm
1238 2013-10-28 17:39:18 <phantomcircuit> lol
1239 2013-10-28 17:42:33 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: practicing before you launch Silk Road 2.0?
1240 2013-10-28 17:42:47 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, proving that it's possible
1241 2013-10-28 17:42:53 <phantomcircuit> someone said it wasn't a while ago
1242 2013-10-28 17:42:58 <phantomcircuit> i cant remember who actually
1243 2013-10-28 17:43:24 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, expected value of operating sr 2.0 is < 0
1244 2013-10-28 17:43:51 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: not only is that possible you can also setup your tor config so that that .onion just magically works.
1245 2013-10-28 17:43:59 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: sheesh, there are multiple linux distros that claim to do just that. IIRC whonix out of the box has a vm-in-a-vm setup
1246 2013-10-28 17:44:13 <gmaxwell> s/tor config/ssh config/
1247 2013-10-28 17:44:36 <phantomcircuit> yeah apparently sr1 didn't do that
1248 2013-10-28 17:44:38 <phantomcircuit> which is just
1249 2013-10-28 17:44:38 <phantomcircuit> wat
1250 2013-10-28 17:44:44 <TD> proving that what is possible?
1251 2013-10-28 17:44:47 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: meh, people are complacent :)
1252 2013-10-28 17:45:04 Krellan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1253 2013-10-28 17:45:11 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah
1254 2013-10-28 17:45:17 <gmaxwell> e.g. add in .ssh/config: Host *.onion\n ProxyCommand connect -R remote -5 -S 127.0.0.1:9050 %h %p
1255 2013-10-28 17:45:54 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: now, the smart thing to do would be to setup your system in such a way that the investigators can easily find it... but it's actually at someone elses apartment, with enough evidence that you've managed to frame them when the FBI busts in.
1256 2013-10-28 17:46:14 <gmaxwell> (I use ssh over HS as a general nat traversal solution! :P)
1257 2013-10-28 17:47:04 zer0def has joined
1258 2013-10-28 17:48:05 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1259 2013-10-28 17:48:07 <wumpus> gmaxwell: isn't it extremely laggy?
1260 2013-10-28 17:48:12 <phantomcircuit> apt goesn't like my socks settings
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1264 2013-10-28 17:50:33 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it's mixed, anywhere between really laggy to better than sshing to .nz. But it works when other things don't.
1265 2013-10-28 17:51:07 debiantoruser has joined
1266 2013-10-28 17:51:42 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, tor hs are actually not that bad
1267 2013-10-28 17:51:57 <phantomcircuit> http w/ keep alive you can get rtt of ~500ms
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1269 2013-10-28 17:53:05 <wumpus> gmaxwell: ok, nice, I have noticed that tor is a lot faster than it used to be in the old days, but haven't tried ssh over it any time recently
1270 2013-10-28 17:53:57 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, in a lot of cases hidden services are faster than exits
1271 2013-10-28 17:54:08 <phantomcircuit> of the ~5k tor relays only about 500 are exits
1272 2013-10-28 17:54:17 <phantomcircuit> the relays have a lot more bandwidth also
1273 2013-10-28 17:55:01 TD is now known as TD[away]
1274 2013-10-28 17:55:58 <gmaxwell> The HS circuits are 2x longer, but avoiding overloaded exits seems to generally be a win.
1275 2013-10-28 17:56:05 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: usually it's pretty slow to find a hidden service, but once you have a connection it's okish
1276 2013-10-28 17:57:14 dust-otc has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1277 2013-10-28 17:57:31 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, it's finding a rendevouz point and getting the descriptor that's slow
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1279 2013-10-28 17:58:38 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1280 2013-10-28 18:00:27 <jgarzik> Do we have a favorite FAQ link for the following: "can we change the proof-of-work to do something /useful/, rather than just waste electricity?" This comes up quite often among programmers I talk to about bitcoin. Engineers hate inefficiency after all, so this really tweaks a human's brain.
1281 2013-10-28 18:00:43 <jgarzik> I have my own answers, but I'm tired of retyping them, poorly
1282 2013-10-28 18:01:46 <helo> just make the proof of work a simulation of a new universe, and we can be gods!
1283 2013-10-28 18:01:48 <pigeons> i like the "verifying bitcoin transactions is useful" and perhaps more energy efficient than traditional systems
1284 2013-10-28 18:01:57 <melvster> lol
1285 2013-10-28 18:01:58 <wumpus> it's answered various times on the stack exchange IIRC
1286 2013-10-28 18:01:59 <melvster> nice
1287 2013-10-28 18:02:45 <melvster> i dont think there anything more useful even imaginable
1288 2013-10-28 18:02:48 <jgarzik> pigeons, that's my stock answer
1289 2013-10-28 18:03:04 <jgarzik> "much less work than employing agents with guns + visa + swift data centers"
1290 2013-10-28 18:03:12 <kjj> the search on the forums isn't so bad that answers to that question can't be found with it
1291 2013-10-28 18:03:45 <helo> "breaks game theory mechanics if people can profit outside bitcoin via proof of work"
1292 2013-10-28 18:03:58 <wumpus> kjj: no one wants to point people to the forums, though
1293 2013-10-28 18:04:03 <jgarzik> indeed
1294 2013-10-28 18:04:12 <pigeons> never thought of that, please submit pull request with code
1295 2013-10-28 18:04:55 <kjj> the real answer is short if you don't have to go into detail. "We require certain properties. Hashes have all of those properties. Nothing else known does."
1296 2013-10-28 18:05:35 <jgarzik> heh
1297 2013-10-28 18:07:44 <kjj> the properties list is also short-ish. scales well, can't be predicted, cheap to verify, at least cryptographic quality of randomness. did I miss any?
1298 2013-10-28 18:08:01 <kjj> oh, accepts arbitrary input
1299 2013-10-28 18:08:07 <melvster> the proof of work is verifiable using mathematics without having to rely on a third party
1300 2013-10-28 18:08:35 <kjj> hmm. shorten that to non-oracular?
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1304 2013-10-28 18:09:57 <melvster> it also verifies the integrity of the block chain and makes it resistant to attacks
1305 2013-10-28 18:10:08 dgolds has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1306 2013-10-28 18:10:20 <kjj> melvster: that's a result, not a property
1307 2013-10-28 18:10:35 <wumpus> kjj: oracular, that's a great word but I'm afraid suddenly no one knows what you're talking about anymore :)
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1312 2013-10-28 18:14:11 <melvster> i suspect another coin may be able to use things like protein folding, but you'd likely have a whole host of attack vectors introduced
1313 2013-10-28 18:14:25 <gmaxwell> yea, I repeat the standard "It _is_ useful", "hashes have the right properties, otherthings... MAYBE, usually not", and the advanced: "if the work is independantly valuable this may make attacks cheaper, it's useful if work you spend on a chain which won't be the ultimate best one be worthless to you"
1314 2013-10-28 18:14:25 <kjj> it means that you don't need an oracle. as in, you verify it yourself
1315 2013-10-28 18:14:34 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
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1317 2013-10-28 18:15:27 <gmaxwell> kjj: shortcut free.
1318 2013-10-28 18:15:59 <kjj> gmaxwell: I had that listed as unpredictable
1319 2013-10-28 18:16:04 <gmaxwell> (this isn't a guaranteed property of cryptographic hashes, but pratically any sane one is believed to have it)
1320 2013-10-28 18:17:01 <gmaxwell> kjj: e.g. SHA256_and_do_nothing_for_five_minutes() is unpredictable, but would be a very bad pow, esp if the and_do_nothing part was a mathmatical trapdoor that only one person knew about.
1321 2013-10-28 18:17:54 <kjj> where most of the alternate schemes I've seen fall down is on the domain and range
1322 2013-10-28 18:18:08 <melvster> kjj: domain and range?
1323 2013-10-28 18:18:39 <kjj> it needs to accept any arbitrary input, and it needs to have an output difficulty to distinguish from randomness
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1325 2013-10-28 18:19:10 <kjj> er, difficult to distinguish
1326 2013-10-28 18:19:40 <kjj> the second place is in the granularity of the difficulty
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1330 2013-10-28 18:20:44 <gmaxwell> kjj: well you can get whatever granularity you want by combining a cryptographic hash with any stochastic search.
1331 2013-10-28 18:21:12 askmike has joined
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1333 2013-10-28 18:21:45 <kjj> gmaxwell: I wasn't trying to give an exact specification. in my view, having to actually do the work to see the answer can be described as either "having no shortcuts" or "unpredictable"
1334 2013-10-28 18:22:53 <gmaxwell> e.g. you have some puzzle() function that does something unoptimizable, and produces an output of at least {a number of} bits. Define a random_to_puzzle_input() and your pow is H(puzzle(random_to_puzzle_input(H(header)))||header).
1335 2013-10-28 18:23:56 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1336 2013-10-28 18:24:11 <kjj> I love open enrollment time at the office. lots of fun trying to assess the odds of me dying in an accident vs. me dying under other circumstances so I can set my life insurance level for the year.
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1343 2013-10-28 18:31:42 * Diablo-D3 has started a channel: #paleo on oftc
1344 2013-10-28 18:32:07 elevatioN has joined
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1346 2013-10-28 18:38:45 <ecoloco> who wanna buy vpn 0.03 btc for 1 month or 0.1 btc for 6 months /msg me
1347 2013-10-28 18:40:41 <kjj> how much to get you on my ignore list? oh, free
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1351 2013-10-28 18:46:21 <melvster> FYI: I've almost completed v0.1 of a semantically annotated block header explorer ... it also prints out the raw header and verifies the hash: http://testcoin.org/.well-known/ni/sha-256/AAAAAAAAAAX--HN-FN6076EaoWrmBS5rXPc3WGOUuYY
1352 2013-10-28 18:47:17 <melvster> im going to do the merkle tree next
1353 2013-10-28 18:48:05 <sipa> nit: at least in the reference client, the field is called nBits, not Nbits
1354 2013-10-28 18:48:20 <sipa> not that i think it's a good name, and feel free to use something more informative
1355 2013-10-28 18:48:31 <melvster> sipa: thanks!
1356 2013-10-28 18:48:32 <sipa> but if you reuse the variable name, reuse it entirely :)
1357 2013-10-28 18:48:49 <melvster> hmm yeah i was wondering what to name it
1358 2013-10-28 18:49:11 <melvster> sipa: actually that's just the sceen lable
1359 2013-10-28 18:49:13 <melvster> screen
1360 2013-10-28 18:49:20 <melvster> in the ontology it's all lower case nbits
1361 2013-10-28 18:49:28 <melvster> ontologies are notoriously inconsistent :)
1362 2013-10-28 18:49:38 <sipa> ok
1363 2013-10-28 18:49:44 <melvster> but I can describe exactly what it means in the reference
1364 2013-10-28 18:49:52 <melvster> so you dont have to guess on the string
1365 2013-10-28 18:50:46 <melvster> sipa: i was wondering for previous hash ... I have right now ... previousBlockHeader
1366 2013-10-28 18:50:50 <melvster> i guess that's totally wrong
1367 2013-10-28 18:50:56 <melvster> previousBlockHash better?
1368 2013-10-28 18:51:05 <melvster> the wiki has some names
1369 2013-10-28 18:51:10 <melvster> but it's like hashPreviousBlock
1370 2013-10-28 18:51:22 <melvster> which didnt sound readable to me
1371 2013-10-28 18:51:33 <melvster> it's not a *huge* deal
1372 2013-10-28 18:51:47 <melvster> but better to name it accurately at the start than change it later
1373 2013-10-28 18:53:11 <sipa> well the reference client uses a notorious coding style, where variable names start with a prefix indicating their type
1374 2013-10-28 18:53:20 <sipa> that's the reason for hashPreviousBlock
1375 2013-10-28 18:53:25 <melvster> ahhhhhh
1376 2013-10-28 18:53:25 <sipa> and nBits as well
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1379 2013-10-28 18:55:23 <melvster> quite interesting that the hungarian style is used ... maybe says something about the age of the coder ;)
1380 2013-10-28 18:55:27 debiantoruser has joined
1381 2013-10-28 18:56:10 <sipa> it likely doesa
1382 2013-10-28 18:56:29 <melvster> sipa: you're a great help, ill put a credit to you in the ontology when i get round to it ... :)
1383 2013-10-28 18:56:35 <sipa> np
1384 2013-10-28 18:58:12 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1385 2013-10-28 18:58:30 <HM2> not entirely dev related, anyone got an SVG of the *current* bitcoin logo?
1386 2013-10-28 18:58:35 <HM2> the link on the wiki is busted
1387 2013-10-28 18:59:18 Coincidental has joined
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1390 2013-10-28 19:01:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|HM2: maybe github does?
1391 2013-10-28 19:02:28 <HM2> good idea
1392 2013-10-28 19:02:30 <dobry-den> Does this accurately describe a block exchange between peers? [getblocks->, <-inv, getdata->, <-block]
1393 2013-10-28 19:03:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|dobry-den: IIRC, that looks right
1394 2013-10-28 19:03:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Re: get new address prompting for passphrase: I seem to recall a recent-ish PR that got merged fairly quickly that fixes that bug
1395 2013-10-28 19:03:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So 0.8.5 prompts for the passphrase, 0.9 won't
1396 2013-10-28 19:03:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|dobry-den: oh, that's just during syncing, btw
1397 2013-10-28 19:04:07 <HM2> michagogo|cloud, it's there but appears to be terrible quality for some reason
1398 2013-10-28 19:04:09 <HM2> hmm
1399 2013-10-28 19:04:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For a new block propagating across the network, it's the same, but without the getblocks
1400 2013-10-28 19:04:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|HM2: Erm...
1401 2013-10-28 19:04:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Didn't you say svg?
1402 2013-10-28 19:04:46 <HM2> yeah nm, Karbon just sucks at rendering
1403 2013-10-28 19:04:53 <HM2> got it now :)
1404 2013-10-28 19:05:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|:-P
1405 2013-10-28 19:05:25 <dobry-den> My real question then is, let's say i wait 30 seconds between their <-inv and my getdata->. So, [getblocks->, <-inv, *I wait*, getdata->, <-block]. Is it possible for the peer to send me other messages in the meantime?
1406 2013-10-28 19:05:34 <dobry-den> Like a :ping or :getaddr or something?
1407 2013-10-28 19:05:53 <dobry-den> Oh, wait
1408 2013-10-28 19:05:55 <dobry-den> nevermind
1409 2013-10-28 19:05:57 <dobry-den> That was a bad example
1410 2013-10-28 19:06:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yep
1411 2013-10-28 19:06:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Also why wait?)
1412 2013-10-28 19:06:16 nexes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1415 2013-10-28 19:09:00 <dobry-den> michagogo|cloud: Well, I wouldn't really wait. The way I mapped out the exchange made it look like a 4-message atomic transaction. but once i wrote it out i realized i dun goofed
1416 2013-10-28 19:09:01 <sipa> dobry-den: of course
1417 2013-10-28 19:09:10 <sipa> any message can be sent at any time, in both directions
1418 2013-10-28 19:09:15 <dobry-den> right
1419 2013-10-28 19:09:18 <sipa> but you're supposed to answer in order
1420 2013-10-28 19:10:19 <dobry-den> sipa: so, you can't count on [getdata->, <-block] because [getdata->, <-inv, <-othermsgs, <-block] might happen??
1421 2013-10-28 19:10:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, how does the client handle getdata that doesn't follow an inv?
1422 2013-10-28 19:10:26 <dobry-den> didn't mean the double-?
1423 2013-10-28 19:10:56 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: i don't understand
1424 2013-10-28 19:11:02 stalled has joined
1425 2013-10-28 19:11:05 <sipa> a getdata is an independent request for data
1426 2013-10-28 19:11:14 dgolds has joined
1427 2013-10-28 19:11:15 <sipa> it may be issued independent of an inv
1428 2013-10-28 19:11:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: how does bitcoind handle getting getdata that it hasn't sent an inv for?
1429 2013-10-28 19:11:37 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: if it can answer, it answers
1430 2013-10-28 19:11:41 <sipa> if it can't, it doesn't
1431 2013-10-28 19:11:45 <sipa> the inv has nothing to do with it
1432 2013-10-28 19:11:47 <dobry-den> not-found message
1433 2013-10-28 19:11:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, guessed as much
1434 2013-10-28 19:12:05 <dobry-den> invs are pretty much spammed around
1435 2013-10-28 19:12:20 <sipa> (that's not entirely true btw, there is a cache of recently relayed transactions, and those are kept in memory to answer getdata's quickly)
1436 2013-10-28 19:12:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Doesn't count as misbehaving or anything, I assume?
1437 2013-10-28 19:12:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: sounds like the mempool
1438 2013-10-28 19:12:52 <sipa> no
1439 2013-10-28 19:12:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or is this something else?
1440 2013-10-28 19:12:58 <sipa> yes
1441 2013-10-28 19:13:06 <sipa> the mempool is reset through block handling
1442 2013-10-28 19:13:13 <sipa> if i inv you about a new transaction
1443 2013-10-28 19:13:25 <sipa> and then get a new block that includes it
1444 2013-10-28 19:13:31 <sipa> you can still ask me for the transaction
1445 2013-10-28 19:13:42 <sipa> even though it isn't available in the mempool anymore
1446 2013-10-28 19:13:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But why would I do that?
1447 2013-10-28 19:13:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh
1448 2013-10-28 19:14:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you get the block as I'm processing the inv
1449 2013-10-28 19:14:13 <sipa> yup
1450 2013-10-28 19:14:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Interesting
1451 2013-10-28 19:14:33 <sipa> also note that before BIP35, the mempool wasn't quaryable _at all_
1452 2013-10-28 19:14:36 <sipa> *query
1453 2013-10-28 19:14:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, if you have txindex on does that allow peers to getdata any tx?
1454 2013-10-28 19:15:05 <sipa> nope
1455 2013-10-28 19:15:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google BIP 35
1456 2013-10-28 19:15:13 <gribble> BIP 0035 - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0035>; 15V, (-)0.7A, Low VCE(sat), (PNP) - ON Semiconductor: <http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/EN694-D.PDF>; Lui Zumba®: BIP - Estoy Enamorao (Merengue) - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlLZ_S_7A8>
1457 2013-10-28 19:15:18 <sipa> and i'm absolutely against that
1458 2013-10-28 19:15:33 <sipa> as it may lead to network services relying on peers doing indexing for them
1459 2013-10-28 19:15:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: yeah, I can see why
1460 2013-10-28 19:15:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right
1461 2013-10-28 19:15:41 <sipa> if they really need that, they can do it themself
1462 2013-10-28 19:15:41 dgolds has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1463 2013-10-28 19:15:47 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1464 2013-10-28 19:16:11 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wishes BIP page titles included the bip's title
1465 2013-10-28 19:19:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, I didn't actually know about that message
1466 2013-10-28 19:19:33 <petertodd> sipa: I guess you're not a fan of where people want to go with UTXO commitments then...
1467 2013-10-28 19:20:02 <sipa> petertodd: my opinion is different for services that don't need trust
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1469 2013-10-28 19:20:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So the criteria for allowing a getdata are either in mempool or recently relayed?
1470 2013-10-28 19:20:25 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: for transactions, yes
1471 2013-10-28 19:20:32 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: for blocks, you can ask whatever you like
1472 2013-10-28 19:20:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does "relayed" mean inv'd? And, what's "recent"?
1473 2013-10-28 19:20:47 <petertodd> sipa: ok, would you support nodes spitting out merkle paths for txo's? because that could improve SPV security in some cases
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1475 2013-10-28 19:21:08 <sipa> petertodd: but yes, it inevitable that forcing nodes to provide more services to the network shifts economics around
1476 2013-10-28 19:21:21 <sipa> and there will be cases where the question is whether those are necessary
1477 2013-10-28 19:21:40 Application has joined
1478 2013-10-28 19:21:47 <sipa> we really need something like a manifest that explains the basic guidelines the system commits
1479 2013-10-28 19:21:53 <sipa> so new developments can be judged
1480 2013-10-28 19:22:00 <petertodd> sipa: hmm... see UTXO's on demand, even with the commitments to make the data secure, really worries me because of all the uses for dumping crap in the UTXO set
1481 2013-10-28 19:22:11 nexes has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1482 2013-10-28 19:22:16 <sipa> petertodd: that
1483 2013-10-28 19:22:40 <sipa> petertodd: that's why i do like the idea of making wallets responsible for storage :p
1484 2013-10-28 19:22:40 <sipa> but that's probably too far out now
1485 2013-10-28 19:22:41 <petertodd> sipa: ...and I think we underestimate the appeal of those uses, because for now social pressure is working. (but note mastercoin)
1486 2013-10-28 19:22:52 <sipa> (i mean your MMR idea)
1487 2013-10-28 19:23:16 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, I starting writing that up formally last night actually
1488 2013-10-28 19:24:09 <petertodd> sipa: quickly noticed I'd forgotten an edge case: proving that a TXO doesn't exist, looks like miners have to commit to the block #'s that contained the TXO's they claim tx's spend
1489 2013-10-28 19:24:37 <sipa> petertodd: i'm sure there are many things to consider
1490 2013-10-28 19:24:49 <petertodd> sipa: yup, good example
1491 2013-10-28 19:24:57 <sipa> i can't say i fully thought through how merging proofs would work in detail
1492 2013-10-28 19:25:35 <petertodd> sipa: but, understand that I'm also worried that UTXO commitments will look attractive enough that they will get implemented first, even though they make a lot of abuse attractive
1493 2013-10-28 19:26:16 <sipa> by UTXO commitments, you mean what maaku is working on?
1494 2013-10-28 19:26:32 <petertodd> yes
1495 2013-10-28 19:26:37 <petertodd> (at least last I heard)
1496 2013-10-28 19:26:54 <gmaxwell> I assume by abuse you mean turning the utxo into a queryable authenticated public key-value database...
1497 2013-10-28 19:26:58 <petertodd> Armory made a big contribution for instance; sounds like they want the fast sync it allows.
1498 2013-10-28 19:27:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup
1499 2013-10-28 19:27:02 <sipa> the question of what is queryable is a very different question from the commitment itself
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1501 2013-10-28 19:27:26 <sipa> querying can still be provided by for example electrum-style indexed servers
1502 2013-10-28 19:27:31 <petertodd> sipa: right, well, the commitment is what makes the queryable attractive, because you can prove the anonymous node actually gave you a real response
1503 2013-10-28 19:27:44 <sipa> while their result can be publically provable
1504 2013-10-28 19:27:52 <petertodd> OTOH, fidelity bonding and fraud proofs works well here too: it's easy to prove the server skipped a response they shouldn't have
1505 2013-10-28 19:27:58 <sipa> or specific types of queries (for example, address-based)
1506 2013-10-28 19:28:23 <petertodd> yeah
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1508 2013-10-28 19:28:45 <sipa> there are afaik 3 use cases for UTXO commitments: ultra-lightweight clients (which can provably request their balance), SPV-trust full node sync of history, and O(1) validation nodes
1509 2013-10-28 19:29:06 <petertodd> see, my thinking with TXO commitments, is to engineer the system such that to get data out of it, you can still do so about as efficiently as with bloom filters, and make sure you can do partial validation on the data you get
1510 2013-10-28 19:29:44 <petertodd> sipa: right, and only the former needs UTXO commitments, the later two can get by with TXO commitments just fine. (full-sync of history actually works better with TXO commitments)
1511 2013-10-28 19:29:58 <sipa> indeed
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1513 2013-10-28 19:30:27 <petertodd> question for wallet authors really: are you sure you wouldn't rather have transaction history like you do now?
1514 2013-10-28 19:30:37 <sipa> s/O(1)/O(1) trusted storage/
1515 2013-10-28 19:30:50 <sipa> petertodd: electrum doesn't right now
1516 2013-10-28 19:30:58 <sipa> if you're using a pruned server, afaik
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1518 2013-10-28 19:31:09 <petertodd> sipa: interesting! it used too right? haven't used it in ages
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1520 2013-10-28 19:31:35 <sipa> i haven't ever used it, TBH :$
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1523 2013-10-28 19:32:06 <petertodd> heh, we're so out of touch with actual users :P
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1527 2013-10-28 19:32:45 <petertodd> come to think of it, I haven't tested electrum against nLockTime txs... should do that
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1587 2013-10-28 20:00:56 <Goonie> Hi there! I upgraded to Ubuntu 13.10 and now bitcoin-qt does not build any more. When running ./configure, I get the strange message: checking whether the Boost::System library is available... yes, configure: error: Could not find a version of the library!
1588 2013-10-28 20:01:05 <Goonie> which library?
1589 2013-10-28 20:01:53 <sipa> Goonie: apparently you need to install some libboost-dev packages from 1.54 manually on 13.10
1590 2013-10-28 20:03:03 <Goonie> hmmm, why did it work for Ubuntu 13.04? Do you know which packages are missing? The error message is not very helpful with this.
1591 2013-10-28 20:03:57 <sipa> no clue; i'm on 13.04 still
1592 2013-10-28 20:04:45 <sipa> 14:16:44< MrDaneelOlivaw> i also confirm that building tip of bitcoin on latest ubuntu (saucy) is broken with libboost-dev-all (1.53 all packgs), i had to install manually the 1.54 dev packages (test, system, program_option, thread, chrono) to get it to build.
1593 2013-10-28 20:05:01 testnode9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1594 2013-10-28 20:05:11 <jgarzik> "a fatal flaw has been discovered in namecoin - but a fix is on the way" Then it's not a fatal flaw...
1595 2013-10-28 20:05:43 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, can you look at line 1516 in net.cpp pnodeTrickle = vNodesCopy[GetRand(vNodesCopy.size())];
1596 2013-10-28 20:05:43 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1597 2013-10-28 20:05:47 <sipa> the fatal flaw is that they didn't actually check you owned a domain when updating it or something
1598 2013-10-28 20:05:48 <phantomcircuit> that seems like it's off by 1
1599 2013-10-28 20:06:11 patcon has joined
1600 2013-10-28 20:07:00 <sipa> phantomcircuit: looks good to me
1601 2013-10-28 20:07:14 <phantomcircuit> yeah nvm
1602 2013-10-28 20:07:19 <sipa> GetRand() returns at most one less than its argument
1603 2013-10-28 20:07:20 <phantomcircuit> i read GetRand wrong
1604 2013-10-28 20:07:47 <phantomcircuit> (even if it was it doesn't really matter)
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1617 2013-10-28 20:16:28 <Goonie> sipa: thanks. I had to add "libboost-filesystem1.54.0"
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1619 2013-10-28 20:18:54 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is there anyway to turn logging off entirely?
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1621 2013-10-28 20:19:17 <sipa> ln -s /dev/null ~/.bitcoin/debug.log ? :p
1622 2013-10-28 20:19:35 <phantomcircuit> i was more thinking the cost of the printf call
1623 2013-10-28 20:19:43 <phantomcircuit> im working on the patch to remove the 100ms sleep
1624 2013-10-28 20:19:48 <sipa> ok
1625 2013-10-28 20:20:00 <phantomcircuit> currently i think the printf time in initial sync is the majority of the cpu time
1626 2013-10-28 20:20:11 <sipa> wut?
1627 2013-10-28 20:20:36 <sipa> have you benchmarked the LogPrintf() call? :)
1628 2013-10-28 20:20:54 <phantomcircuit> sipa, fixing the 100ms sleep means im flying through inital sync over a lan
1629 2013-10-28 20:21:28 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1630 2013-10-28 20:21:43 <sipa> i'd be interested to know what the overhead of our logging is
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1633 2013-10-28 20:26:30 <Goonie> sipa: Hmm, it satisfied ./configure but when I make I get: /usr/include/boost/filesystem/v3/operations.hpp:289: undefined reference to `boost::filesystem3::detail::status(boost::filesystem3::path const&, boost::system::error_code*)'
1634 2013-10-28 20:26:52 <Goonie> and: ../../../src/qt/libbitcoinqt.a(libbitcoinqt_a-guiutil.o): In function `GUIUtil::HelpMessageBox::HelpMessageBox(QWidget*)':
1635 2013-10-28 20:26:52 <Goonie> /home/aschildbach/dev/workspace/bitcoin/src/qt/guiutil.cpp:530: undefined reference to `HelpMessage()'
1636 2013-10-28 20:26:54 <sipa> Goonie: can you do a make clean first?
1637 2013-10-28 20:27:11 <Goonie> ok I'll try
1638 2013-10-28 20:27:12 <sipa> it cannot detect that external dependencies have changed
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1640 2013-10-28 20:30:55 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ps a9d9f0f5 is an excellent improvement to the logic
1641 2013-10-28 20:31:37 <phantomcircuit> i might say to even take it one farther and only poll if the vRecvMsg is either an incomplete message or empty
1642 2013-10-28 20:32:02 <phantomcircuit> which would make the entire concept of a max receive buffer obsolete
1643 2013-10-28 20:33:06 <sipa> i do think a receive buffer makes sense
1644 2013-10-28 20:33:06 <sipa> as you may want to utilize network I/O while processing a block
1645 2013-10-28 20:34:00 <warren> jgarzik: gmaxwell: fedora updated openssl again, so I bumped the ec enabled packages: http://wtogami.blogspot.com/2013/05/openssl-with-ecdsa-for-fedora-18.html
1646 2013-10-28 20:34:29 <phantomcircuit> sipa, hmm maybe
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1649 2013-10-28 20:36:46 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is the logic for disconnecting when the send buffer gets too large still there?
1650 2013-10-28 20:36:54 <sipa> not afaik
1651 2013-10-28 20:37:06 <sipa> we just stop processing messages when the send buffer is full
1652 2013-10-28 20:37:33 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it looks like it's actually dropping getdata requests when the send buffer is full
1653 2013-10-28 20:37:54 <phantomcircuit> which is probably the sanest thing to do but the other end has no way to know that happened
1654 2013-10-28 20:38:03 <sipa> that would surprise me
1655 2013-10-28 20:38:08 <phantomcircuit> so possibly disconnecting to signal that there was a problem would actually be better
1656 2013-10-28 20:38:10 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, at the lowest level, if the send buffer is full, it should not be read(2)'ing additional incoming data from the socket
1657 2013-10-28 20:38:25 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, it will drain, sure
1658 2013-10-28 20:38:32 <sipa> if we ever decide a peer is so slow/bad that we should drop its request, we must disconnect
1659 2013-10-28 20:38:42 <sipa> where in the code is that dropping?
1660 2013-10-28 20:38:50 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i think this behaviour is accidental
1661 2013-10-28 20:38:50 * jgarzik wants to know, too
1662 2013-10-28 20:38:55 <phantomcircuit> ProcessGetData
1663 2013-10-28 20:39:15 <sipa> it++ is after the check
1664 2013-10-28 20:39:26 <phantomcircuit> the send buffer check is inside the while loop, it looks like the first element gets deleted no matter what
1665 2013-10-28 20:39:26 <sipa> so the message doesn't get removed unless we pass that point
1666 2013-10-28 20:40:03 <sipa> nope
1667 2013-10-28 20:40:10 Grouver has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference)
1668 2013-10-28 20:40:16 <sipa> the erase at the end is a dummy if it was never increased
1669 2013-10-28 20:40:44 <phantomcircuit> pfrom->vRecvGetData.erase(pfrom->vRecvGetData.begin(), pfrom->vRecvGetData.begin());
1670 2013-10-28 20:40:52 <sipa> that is a no-op
1671 2013-10-28 20:41:00 <phantomcircuit> ah
1672 2013-10-28 20:41:32 <sipa> (it's excluding the last)
1673 2013-10-28 20:41:53 <phantomcircuit> sipa, that's confusing since it's inclusive of the first but excludes the last
1674 2013-10-28 20:42:05 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, welcome to STL
1675 2013-10-28 20:42:10 <phantomcircuit> heh
1676 2013-10-28 20:42:11 <sipa> it's like how all loops and iterators work in c/c++
1677 2013-10-28 20:42:20 <sipa> for (int i=0; i<10; i++) is the most natural loop :)
1678 2013-10-28 20:42:28 <sipa> (it's including 0 and excluding 10)
1679 2013-10-28 20:42:47 chris_l has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1680 2013-10-28 20:43:12 <sipa> or more generically: for (iter = something.begin(); it != something.end(); it++)
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1682 2013-10-28 20:44:20 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's extra weird because pfrom->vRecvGetData.erase(pfrom->vRecvGetData.begin()) erases the first element
1683 2013-10-28 20:44:36 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1684 2013-10-28 20:45:17 <sipa> perhaps i'm too strongly under its influence already, or perhaps it's stockhold syndrome, but i do find that actually the exact behaviour i'd expect
1685 2013-10-28 20:45:33 <sipa> *stockholm
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1688 2013-10-28 20:46:17 <kjj> C++ is full of things that make no sense to outsiders, but make complete sense to experts. that's one of the things that makes it hard for amateurs to follow the bitcoin code
1689 2013-10-28 20:46:20 MobGod has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1690 2013-10-28 20:46:32 <kjj> actually, I think most languages have them too, but C++ comes up a lot around here
1691 2013-10-28 20:46:43 <Goonie> sipa: Worked, thanks.
1692 2013-10-28 20:46:49 <sipa> one thing to learn from this: that piece of code needs comments to explain the behaviour
1693 2013-10-28 20:47:07 MobGod has joined
1694 2013-10-28 20:47:11 <gmaxwell> Can never go wrong with comments. Except when the comments are wrong.
1695 2013-10-28 20:47:21 <sipa> the intention or necessity of code is often hard to explain
1696 2013-10-28 20:47:52 <sipa> but just what it _does_ should be clear
1697 2013-10-28 20:48:37 xiangfu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1698 2013-10-28 20:49:47 <sipa> jgarzik: LOL
1699 2013-10-28 20:49:47 <sipa> i think you confused Merkle and Merkel in your tweet :D
1700 2013-10-28 20:50:16 <sipa> unless Merkle phone tapping is some new fancy crypto scheme i'm unaware of
1701 2013-10-28 20:50:43 <gmaxwell> This is generally what I don't like about C++. Lots of powerful tools for hiding what things _do_... makes the code look more like what you _mean_ but the mechanism is less clear.
1702 2013-10-28 20:51:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, dont bother im about to rip it appart and put it back together
1703 2013-10-28 20:51:11 <sipa> phantomcircuit: :(
1704 2013-10-28 20:51:16 <ryan-c> yay indirection
1705 2013-10-28 20:51:50 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ProcessGetData shall henceforth process only the first getdata request
1706 2013-10-28 20:52:01 <phantomcircuit> improve fairness of resources
1707 2013-10-28 20:52:07 <sipa> heh?
1708 2013-10-28 20:52:22 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's part of removing the 100ms sleep in the networking code
1709 2013-10-28 20:52:24 <sipa> if you're requesting a bunch of transactions
1710 2013-10-28 20:52:30 <sipa> vs requesting a whole block
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1712 2013-10-28 20:52:48 <sipa> you should be able to do more
1713 2013-10-28 20:52:50 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah it's not really fair but it's a lot better
1714 2013-10-28 20:53:18 <sipa> not sure how it's related to removing that delay?
1715 2013-10-28 20:53:58 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ProcessMessages will only process a single message
1716 2013-10-28 20:54:11 <sipa> pĥảÅÅ£á»á¸¿ÄįÅçÇá»Å§
1717 2013-10-28 20:54:13 <sipa> huh
1718 2013-10-28 20:54:16 <phantomcircuit> so it's reasonable that processgetdata will also
1719 2013-10-28 20:54:18 <phantomcircuit> sipa, wat
1720 2013-10-28 20:54:25 <sipa> accidentally set off my accentify plugin
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1722 2013-10-28 20:57:42 <ryan-c> So, if we assume on average that the bitcoin network is drawing 1W per GH/s, it's using 1.5x the maximum output of the Hoover Dam.
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1746 2013-10-28 21:10:08 <jgarzik> sipa, LOL++
1747 2013-10-28 21:10:12 <jgarzik> too funny
1748 2013-10-28 21:11:27 <gmaxwell> I make that mistake constantly, sorry if its contagious.
1749 2013-10-28 21:12:48 <ryan-c> hm, so for comparison, in 2011 google said that all their data centers combined use 260 megawatts - bitcoin is using at least 10x that.
1750 2013-10-28 21:13:04 <ryan-c> Unless I am badly failing at math.
1751 2013-10-28 21:14:02 Subo1977 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1753 2013-10-28 21:15:17 <sipa> bitcoin's subsidy is 3600 BTC/day, or 730k USD, or 3.7M kWh (at 20c/kWh), or 150k kWday, or 150k KW, or 150 MW?
1754 2013-10-28 21:16:02 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: you're failing at math. :P
1755 2013-10-28 21:16:51 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: random numbers diff=390928787.63808584 so 2798377263284179hps... least efficient asics are about 110MH/j = 25,439,793 watts.
1756 2013-10-28 21:17:39 glen1 has joined
1757 2013-10-28 21:17:51 <ryan-c> So, my understanding was that the more efficient ASICs were 0.6-1.0W for 1 GH/s
1758 2013-10-28 21:18:07 <ryan-c> Is that inaccurate?
1759 2013-10-28 21:18:31 <ryan-c> (Yes, GH or MH per J makes a bit more sense)
1760 2013-10-28 21:19:16 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1761 2013-10-28 21:19:35 <ryan-c> The current hash rate estimate on bitcoinwatch.com is 3000 TH/s (3000000 GH/s)
1762 2013-10-28 21:19:37 jegz has joined
1763 2013-10-28 21:20:15 <sipa> ;;nethash
1764 2013-10-28 21:20:16 <gribble> 3558900.64965
1765 2013-10-28 21:20:20 <sipa> ^- more accurate
1766 2013-10-28 21:20:45 <ryan-c> that is in MH/s?
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1768 2013-10-28 21:20:48 <sipa> yes
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1770 2013-10-28 21:21:00 <ryan-c> which would be 3500 TH/s
1771 2013-10-28 21:21:06 <ryan-c> er
1772 2013-10-28 21:21:08 <ryan-c> wait
1773 2013-10-28 21:21:10 <sipa> oh
1774 2013-10-28 21:21:13 <sipa> it's GH/s i guess
1775 2013-10-28 21:21:19 <ryan-c> okay
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1777 2013-10-28 21:21:25 <ryan-c> so 3500 TH/s
1778 2013-10-28 21:21:44 <ryan-c> How is that not 3.5GW @ 1W per GH/s
1779 2013-10-28 21:21:50 <sipa> ;;calc [nethash]*10^9/2**48*65535/[diff]
1780 2013-10-28 21:21:51 <gribble> Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
1781 2013-10-28 21:21:54 <sipa> ;;diff
1782 2013-10-28 21:21:55 <gribble> 3.9092878763808584E8
1783 2013-10-28 21:22:32 <ryan-c> (would love to be wrong here, 3.5GW seems high)
1784 2013-10-28 21:23:13 <sipa> well obviously your assumption on 1W/(GH/s) must be wrong
1785 2013-10-28 21:23:24 sustrik has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1786 2013-10-28 21:23:37 <sipa> the mining subsidy only pays for 3.7M kWh/day
1787 2013-10-28 21:24:00 <ryan-c> so, I think the BFL 60GH/s units use about 240W
1788 2013-10-28 21:24:10 <ryan-c> which is 4W per GH/s
1789 2013-10-28 21:24:30 _ingsoc_ has joined
1790 2013-10-28 21:24:39 <ryan-c> https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-31 "our maximal power consumption will be below 1.6 W/GH/s"
1791 2013-10-28 21:24:57 _ingsoc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1792 2013-10-28 21:25:22 <sipa> 3.5M GH/s
1793 2013-10-28 21:25:34 <sipa> 4W / GH/s
1794 2013-10-28 21:25:35 <ryan-c> so estimating 1W/GH/s seems like it should be at least a lower bound.
1795 2013-10-28 21:25:40 <sipa> = 14MW
1796 2013-10-28 21:26:09 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: sure, so where are you getting the big numbers from?
1797 2013-10-28 21:26:10 <ryan-c> Ah, okay, I have an extra 1000 in there.
1798 2013-10-28 21:26:14 <ryan-c> which numbers?
1799 2013-10-28 21:26:18 <Ry4an> Did I miss the 1.21GigaWatts joke? Because I usually like to be around for that part of any power consumption talk.
1800 2013-10-28 21:26:21 <gmaxwell> ;;nethash
1801 2013-10-28 21:26:22 <gribble> 3558900.64965
1802 2013-10-28 21:26:37 <ryan-c> I think I made a factor of 1000 error somewhere.
1803 2013-10-28 21:26:39 <gmaxwell> 3,558,900 watts if you assume 1w/gh.
1804 2013-10-28 21:26:48 <ryan-c> okay
1805 2013-10-28 21:27:38 <gmaxwell> (and as I was saying above, the least efficient asics are about 110MH/j, or about 1/10th that, but as time goes on they are a smaller portion of the hashpower.)
1806 2013-10-28 21:27:40 <phantomcircuit> is there a reason that a bad message start triggers a disconnect but errors in headers doesn't?
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1809 2013-10-28 21:28:59 <sipa> ryan-c: so bitcoin uses about as much power as an accelerating eurostar train (12MW), OKAY
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1811 2013-10-28 21:29:17 <ryan-c> that sounds far more sane
1812 2013-10-28 21:29:22 <ryan-c> thanks
1813 2013-10-28 21:29:31 <sipa> though that's a lower bound, not an upper bound
1814 2013-10-28 21:29:46 <sipa> my calculation gives an upper bound :)
1815 2013-10-28 21:30:12 <ryan-c> Both are good data points.
1816 2013-10-28 21:30:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: your calculation could be wrong (as an upper bound) in the short term.
1817 2013-10-28 21:30:32 <ryan-c> Thanks, I'm not sure how I screwed that up.
1818 2013-10-28 21:30:37 <gmaxwell> (simply because miners might mine at a massive loss)
1819 2013-10-28 21:31:05 <ryan-c> I wonder how many people are still running GPUs
1820 2013-10-28 21:31:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: agree, though i very much doubt that is the case
1821 2013-10-28 21:31:12 <ryan-c> botnets mostly?
1822 2013-10-28 21:31:42 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: "waste of a good bot"
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1824 2013-10-28 21:32:00 <ryan-c> Running at a loss is fairly insane, if you're earning less than the power cost you could just buy bitcoins for what the power would cost.
1825 2013-10-28 21:32:14 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: depends on what kind of loss you're talking about.
1826 2013-10-28 21:32:23 <ryan-c> Perhaps.
1827 2013-10-28 21:32:28 <gmaxwell> Mining protects the network and it buys you strongly anonymous coins.
1828 2013-10-28 21:32:47 <gmaxwell> It also avoids transaction costs and risks of buying coin in other ways.
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1831 2013-10-28 21:33:22 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Sure, true about it being the most anonymous way to earn coins.
1832 2013-10-28 21:33:27 RoboTedd_ has joined
1833 2013-10-28 21:33:30 <glen1> How many coins have you mined so far?
1834 2013-10-28 21:33:40 <ryan-c> though mining in a pool over tor is kinda daft...
1835 2013-10-28 21:33:46 <ryan-c> glen1: who are you asking?
1836 2013-10-28 21:33:48 <gmaxwell> (e.g. mtgox takes a half percent off each side, and takes N months as N tends to â to move USD out. :P, and it and all other exchanges require you to send in extensive ID material)
1837 2013-10-28 21:34:07 <glen1> anyone willing to answer :P
1838 2013-10-28 21:34:08 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: hm? works fine generally. Tor latency is acceptably low.
1839 2013-10-28 21:34:10 <ryan-c> I think I've personally mined somewhere between 200 and 300.
1840 2013-10-28 21:34:27 <sipa> i've probably mined between 2000 and 3000
1841 2013-10-28 21:34:28 <sipa> (most below $1)
1842 2013-10-28 21:34:30 <glen1> how much did you have to invest to get that amount?
1843 2013-10-28 21:34:31 frb has joined
1844 2013-10-28 21:34:58 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: At least on the old getwork protocol a malicious exit node could steal your work units.
1845 2013-10-28 21:35:17 <glen1> good lord, I mined 0.05 back in 2011 then gave up. Regrets ehh?
1846 2013-10-28 21:35:23 <ryan-c> glen1: I spent $1700 on a GPU miner early 2011.
1847 2013-10-28 21:35:31 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: some pools (e.g. eligius) have hidden service interfaces. (and of course, p2pool has no such risk)
1848 2013-10-28 21:35:58 <ryan-c> Then $2500 on ASICs later - the vast majority of my mining was on GPUs in 2011.
1849 2013-10-28 21:36:05 <ryan-c> mostly sold at ~$10
1850 2013-10-28 21:36:06 <glen1> ryan-c, seems like a great investment if you sold them a todays price
1851 2013-10-28 21:36:22 <ryan-c> glen1: Yeah, I sold them as I mined them.
1852 2013-10-28 21:36:26 <ryan-c> Oops.
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1854 2013-10-28 21:37:02 <glen1> as the availability of the coins diminishes with time, when would it not make sense mining any more due to electricity costs etc
1855 2013-10-28 21:37:20 <ryan-c> I tried to set up bitcoind to CPU mine in 2009, and gave up after spending 20 minutes trying to compile it.
1856 2013-10-28 21:37:22 <ryan-c> Oops.
1857 2013-10-28 21:37:27 <ryan-c> *shrug*
1858 2013-10-28 21:37:36 <ryan-c> hindsight is 20/20 and all that.
1859 2013-10-28 21:37:44 <ryan-c> I've made a profit at least.
1860 2013-10-28 21:37:44 <glen1> with hindsight, everything seems like a big mistake lol
1861 2013-10-28 21:37:53 <ryan-c> gotta go
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1868 2013-10-28 21:52:23 <bertani> does cgminer support ntime rolling also with the stratum protocol?
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1879 2013-10-28 22:03:48 <Goonie> petertodd: Why is dig testnet-seed.bitcoin.petertodd.org not resolving any more?
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1883 2013-10-28 22:05:04 Anduckkk is now known as Anduck
1884 2013-10-28 22:07:55 <SomeoneWeird> Goonie, works for me
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1888 2013-10-28 22:08:29 <Goonie> SomeoneWeird: What do you do?
1889 2013-10-28 22:08:36 <SomeoneWeird> ?
1890 2013-10-28 22:08:48 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1891 2013-10-28 22:08:50 <Goonie> How do you test I mean
1892 2013-10-28 22:09:02 <SomeoneWeird> same as you
1893 2013-10-28 22:09:02 <SomeoneWeird> dig
1894 2013-10-28 22:09:41 <Goonie> I just see that I get a SERVFAIL response
1895 2013-10-28 22:09:42 asuk is now known as asuk|afk
1896 2013-10-28 22:09:53 <gmaxwell> digs for me.
1897 2013-10-28 22:10:14 <SomeoneWeird> http://pastie.org/pastes/8438517/text
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1900 2013-10-28 22:11:14 <Goonie> DNS is really annoying. Makes too much problems.
1901 2013-10-28 22:11:25 bertani has quit (Quit: leaving)
1902 2013-10-28 22:11:47 <Goonie> If I dig from a remote machine, it works. Sigh.
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2000 2013-10-28 23:39:07 <melvster> a difficulty of 1 gives you a 1 in 100,000,000 chance of finding a block, is that right?
2001 2013-10-28 23:39:37 <gmaxwell> no.
2002 2013-10-28 23:39:41 <melvster> :(
2003 2013-10-28 23:39:59 <melvster> ohh i was thinking in decimal
2004 2013-10-28 23:40:01 <gmaxwell> melvster: your question fails dimensionality analysis too.
2005 2013-10-28 23:40:01 askmike has joined
2006 2013-10-28 23:40:21 <gmaxwell> (are you asking per hash operation?)
2007 2013-10-28 23:40:26 <melvster> yes
2008 2013-10-28 23:40:33 <melvster> so is it 16^8 >
2009 2013-10-28 23:40:35 <gmaxwell> it's roughly 1/2^32 per hash operation.
2010 2013-10-28 23:40:47 <melvster> ah thanks!
2011 2013-10-28 23:40:49 <gmaxwell> yes, same thing.
2012 2013-10-28 23:41:02 <melvster> got it so more like 1 in 4 billion
2013 2013-10-28 23:41:16 <melvster> stupid me i was thinking in decimal
2014 2013-10-28 23:41:25 <melvster> 4 giga hashes then
2015 2013-10-28 23:41:54 <melvster> gmaxwell: and is it linear ... so a difficulty of two is exactly twice as hard as difficulty 1 ... and so on?
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2017 2013-10-28 23:42:58 <gmaxwell> melvster: right
2018 2013-10-28 23:43:20 <melvster> gmaxwell: thanks so much ...
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2026 2013-10-28 23:52:21 <sipa> melvster: if you want it exactly, a difficulty of N corresponds to (on average) 2^48 / (2^16-1) * N double-SHA256 hashes
2027 2013-10-28 23:52:29 <sipa> ;;calc 2**48/(2**16-1)
2028 2013-10-28 23:52:30 <gribble> 4295032833.0
2029 2013-10-28 23:52:57 <sipa> which is indeed very close to
2030 2013-10-28 23:53:00 <sipa> ;;calc 2**32
2031 2013-10-28 23:53:00 <gribble> 4294967296
2032 2013-10-28 23:53:05 <melvster> haha nice!
2033 2013-10-28 23:53:17 <melvster> i forgot about the double hashes
2034 2013-10-28 23:53:32 <melvster> so difficulty 1 is about 8 giga hashes
2035 2013-10-28 23:53:35 <sipa> no
2036 2013-10-28 23:53:46 <sipa> double hashes are easier to calculate than 2 individual ones
2037 2013-10-28 23:53:52 <melvster> oh!
2038 2013-10-28 23:54:02 <melvster> oic
2039 2013-10-28 23:54:04 <melvster> got it
2040 2013-10-28 23:54:16 <sipa> but even that is not entirely correct
2041 2013-10-28 23:54:32 <melvster> my first job was an assembler programmer
2042 2013-10-28 23:54:36 <sipa> as the structure of the block header itself allows for some optimizations compared to sha256 on arbitrary data
2043 2013-10-28 23:54:37 <melvster> lots of tricks u can do
2044 2013-10-28 23:54:49 <melvster> ah yes
2045 2013-10-28 23:57:06 <melvster> ok good i can add this validation to my explorer
2046 2013-10-28 23:57:16 <sipa> which?
2047 2013-10-28 23:57:26 <melvster> that the hash is lower than the target
2048 2013-10-28 23:57:39 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2049 2013-10-28 23:58:13 <sipa> lower or equal to :)
2050 2013-10-28 23:58:24 <melvster> LOL
2051 2013-10-28 23:58:36 <melvster> have they ever been equal?
2052 2013-10-28 23:58:46 <sipa> i'll let you estimate the chance for that happening
2053 2013-10-28 23:59:02 <melvster> maybe in the early days
2054 2013-10-28 23:59:22 <sipa> you're not thinking it through
2055 2013-10-28 23:59:42 <melvster> must be some distribution of values ... binomial or something
2056 2013-10-28 23:59:47 <sipa> not at all
2057 2013-10-28 23:59:54 <sipa> the output of a hash function is uniform