1 2013-10-29 00:00:01 <phantomcircuit> 1/ (2**256 - target)
2 2013-10-29 00:00:06 <phantomcircuit> or something like that
3 2013-10-29 00:00:14 <phantomcircuit> 1/ target
4 2013-10-29 00:00:16 <melvster> but the winning entry is special
5 2013-10-29 00:00:17 <sipa> indeed
6 2013-10-29 00:00:18 <phantomcircuit> that
7 2013-10-29 00:00:19 <sipa> 1/target
8 2013-10-29 00:00:25 <melvster> the cumulative distribution is different
9 2013-10-29 00:00:29 <phantomcircuit> sipa, what's the current target?
10 2013-10-29 00:00:34 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,target
11 2013-10-29 00:00:34 <gribble> Error: "bc,target" is not a valid command.
12 2013-10-29 00:00:34 <sipa> ;;diff
13 2013-10-29 00:00:34 <gribble> 3.9092878763808584E8
14 2013-10-29 00:00:38 <sipa> ;;target
15 2013-10-29 00:00:38 <gribble> I do not know about 'target', but I do know about these similar topics: 'trade'
16 2013-10-29 00:01:10 <sipa> ;;calc 2**256 / (2**48 / 65535) / 390928788
17 2013-10-29 00:01:10 <gribble> 68962778179977139501679304295146979070345327517635060957184
18 2013-10-29 00:01:25 <sipa> melvster: what does cumulative have to do with it?
19 2013-10-29 00:01:44 <phantomcircuit> sipa, so 1 in 68962778179977139501679304295146979070345327517635060957184
20 2013-10-29 00:01:45 <melvster> hmmm thinking ...
21 2013-10-29 00:01:47 <phantomcircuit> i like those odds
22 2013-10-29 00:01:58 <melvster> have to remember my statistics from school ...
23 2013-10-29 00:02:14 <sipa> melvster: we're calculating the chance that the output of a random function (only looking at the values below or equal to the target) is equal to the target
24 2013-10-29 00:02:24 <sipa> originally, we have 2^256 possible outcomes of the function
25 2013-10-29 00:02:47 <sipa> but only target out of them are valid
26 2013-10-29 00:02:48 <sipa> the distribution within those target is still uniform
27 2013-10-29 00:03:30 <sipa> ;;calc log(2**256 / (2**48 / 65535) / 390928788)/log(2)
28 2013-10-29 00:03:30 <gribble> 195.457647398
29 2013-10-29 00:03:54 ralphtheninja has joined
30 2013-10-29 00:04:16 <sipa> ;;calc exp(log(2) * (log(2**256 / (2**48 / 65535) / 390928788)/log(2) - 73.28945))
31 2013-10-29 00:04:16 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the issue with that function is there is polling logic combined with event driven io
32 2013-10-29 00:04:17 <gribble> 5974367490971483215902803190370795520
33 2013-10-29 00:04:33 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it should all be refactored.. just uh.. later
34 2013-10-29 00:04:35 <sipa> ^ that many times the number of hashes the bitcoin network has performed in its history
35 2013-10-29 00:04:41 <sipa> to hit one hash == target
36 2013-10-29 00:04:50 Internet13 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
37 2013-10-29 00:05:06 <phantomcircuit> ;;calc log(5974367490971483215902803190370795520)/log(2)
38 2013-10-29 00:05:06 <gribble> 122.168197398
39 2013-10-29 00:05:19 <sipa> melvster: so i'll bet you 10 BTC that there is no hash == target :)
40 2013-10-29 00:05:25 <sipa> (i haven't checked)
41 2013-10-29 00:05:25 <phantomcircuit> so 2^61
42 2013-10-29 00:05:33 <melvster> sipa: you offering odds?
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44 2013-10-29 00:05:50 <phantomcircuit> melvster, the odds are ~ 1/2^61
45 2013-10-29 00:05:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: huh?
46 2013-10-29 00:06:06 <phantomcircuit> sipa, birthday attack
47 2013-10-29 00:06:12 <sipa> what does that have to do with it
48 2013-10-29 00:06:17 <sipa> this is not a collision problem
49 2013-10-29 00:06:21 <sipa> it's first preimage
50 2013-10-29 00:06:23 <phantomcircuit> oh right
51 2013-10-29 00:06:24 <phantomcircuit> derp
52 2013-10-29 00:06:30 <phantomcircuit> so 1/2**122
53 2013-10-29 00:06:32 <phantomcircuit> ish
54 2013-10-29 00:06:39 <sipa> yep
55 2013-10-29 00:06:40 <phantomcircuit> give or take a few hundred trillion
56 2013-10-29 00:06:42 <sipa> actually more
57 2013-10-29 00:06:48 <sipa> as with lower difficulty, it was even harder
58 2013-10-29 00:07:29 <sipa> hmm, for an individual block
59 2013-10-29 00:07:59 <sipa> which corresponds to 2^256/target hashes
60 2013-10-29 00:08:39 <sipa> meh
61 2013-10-29 00:08:42 * sipa too tired
62 2013-10-29 00:08:43 <melvster> sipa: ill bet you 1 millibit if you offer me 1000-1 ... i havent checked
63 2013-10-29 00:08:44 Internet13 has joined
64 2013-10-29 00:08:58 <melvster> but think of this
65 2013-10-29 00:09:12 <melvster> you need from 256 bits the first say, 50 to be 0
66 2013-10-29 00:09:16 <phantomcircuit> melvster, you're offering him 1000:1 on a 2^122:1 bet?
67 2013-10-29 00:09:17 <phantomcircuit> lol
68 2013-10-29 00:09:31 <lianj> ^^
69 2013-10-29 00:09:43 <melvster> all results that hit 50 zeros, the next bit is either a 1 or a 0
70 2013-10-29 00:09:47 <melvster> with 50 50 chance
71 2013-10-29 00:09:53 <sipa> yes
72 2013-10-29 00:10:02 <sipa> we've taken that into account already :)
73 2013-10-29 00:10:09 <melvster> oh ok
74 2013-10-29 00:10:09 <gmaxwell> normally a bit is either 0 or a 1. ... :P
75 2013-10-29 00:10:42 <sipa> melvster: the output of the hash function is a uniformly random number between 0 and 2^256-1
76 2013-10-29 00:10:49 <sipa> melvster: but only those <= target are valid
77 2013-10-29 00:10:56 <sipa> how many possible hashes are that?
78 2013-10-29 00:11:08 <melvster> i only care about the first bit after the target
79 2013-10-29 00:11:15 <melvster> i dont care about all others
80 2013-10-29 00:11:22 <sipa> you're not careful!
81 2013-10-29 00:11:24 <phantomcircuit> melvster, then you dont understand what <= means
82 2013-10-29 00:11:34 <melvster> well ... yes im just reading up ...
83 2013-10-29 00:11:36 spinza has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
84 2013-10-29 00:11:45 <sipa> melvster: really, just try to answer my question
85 2013-10-29 00:11:56 <melvster> ok so it seems target is a range ...
86 2013-10-29 00:12:04 <sipa> target is a number
87 2013-10-29 00:12:11 <melvster> sipa: sorry im still learning, just working it out
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89 2013-10-29 00:12:17 <sipa> an integer between 0 and 2^256-1
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91 2013-10-29 00:12:29 <sipa> how many integers are there between 0 and target?
92 2013-10-29 00:12:42 <sipa> (inclusive)
93 2013-10-29 00:12:46 <gmaxwell> oh oh I know I know
94 2013-10-29 00:12:52 <sipa> sssssh
95 2013-10-29 00:12:56 <phantomcircuit> lol
96 2013-10-29 00:13:01 <sipa> (super super secure ssh)
97 2013-10-29 00:13:21 <melvster> hmm not sure about target, but it will be roughly 2^32 * difficulty
98 2013-10-29 00:13:29 <sipa> melvster: you're looking too far
99 2013-10-29 00:13:37 <sipa> melvster: how many integers are there between 0 and 10?
100 2013-10-29 00:13:44 <melvster> inclusive?
101 2013-10-29 00:13:46 <sipa> yes
102 2013-10-29 00:13:58 <melvster> 11 if you include 0 and 10
103 2013-10-29 00:14:00 <sipa> correct
104 2013-10-29 00:14:09 <sipa> now how many integers are there between 0 and target?
105 2013-10-29 00:14:29 <melvster> this i dont know ... im currently reading the wiki page that defines target ..
106 2013-10-29 00:14:39 <sipa> target is just a number
107 2013-10-29 00:14:50 <sipa> it doesn't matter how it is defined
108 2013-10-29 00:14:59 <melvster> so then it will be target
109 2013-10-29 00:15:01 <sipa> there are target+1 integers between 0 and target
110 2013-10-29 00:15:06 <melvster> or target+1
111 2013-10-29 00:15:12 <melvster> inclusive
112 2013-10-29 00:15:12 <sipa> yup
113 2013-10-29 00:15:13 <melvster> right
114 2013-10-29 00:15:14 <lianj> \o/
115 2013-10-29 00:15:31 <melvster> ahhhh
116 2013-10-29 00:15:33 <melvster> i get it now
117 2013-10-29 00:15:42 <sipa> so, we're looking at all outputs of this hash function which are between 0 and target
118 2013-10-29 00:15:55 <sipa> is there any of these numbers which has a higher chance of being hit than another?
119 2013-10-29 00:16:59 <melvster> i guess not
120 2013-10-29 00:17:02 <sipa> indeed not
121 2013-10-29 00:17:23 <sipa> the output of the hash function is uniformly distributed, and we're just cutting away the part > target
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123 2013-10-29 00:17:49 <sipa> so, what we end up with is a number uniformly distributed between 0 and target
124 2013-10-29 00:17:53 <melvster> sipa: thanks makes total sense ... sorry for being slow
125 2013-10-29 00:17:53 <sipa> what is the chance for hitting 0?
126 2013-10-29 00:18:01 <melvster> 1 / target
127 2013-10-29 00:18:05 <melvster> +1
128 2013-10-29 00:18:06 <sipa> almost :)
129 2013-10-29 00:18:18 <sipa> what is the chance for hitting target?
130 2013-10-29 00:18:22 <melvster> same
131 2013-10-29 00:18:25 <sipa> yup
132 2013-10-29 00:19:07 <melvster> got it ... it would be the same as taking a random number modulo target
133 2013-10-29 00:19:07 <sipa> so every block has a chance of 1 / (target + 1) of having a hash equal to its target
134 2013-10-29 00:19:14 <sipa> _almost_
135 2013-10-29 00:19:16 <melvster> lol
136 2013-10-29 00:19:17 <melvster> +1
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138 2013-10-29 00:19:43 <sipa> melvster: let's say you have a random number in the range 0-99
139 2013-10-29 00:19:59 <melvster> yes i get it :)
140 2013-10-29 00:20:01 <sipa> and you're doing it modulo 30
141 2013-10-29 00:20:09 <sipa> what is the chance for hitting 0?
142 2013-10-29 00:20:34 <melvster> all the same 1/30
143 2013-10-29 00:20:38 <sipa> nope
144 2013-10-29 00:20:48 <melvster> ohhh
145 2013-10-29 00:20:52 <sipa> give me each case that leads to 0
146 2013-10-29 00:21:00 <melvster> 90-99 have a bigger chance
147 2013-10-29 00:21:05 <melvster> i mean
148 2013-10-29 00:21:15 <melvster> 0-9 have a slightly higher chance
149 2013-10-29 00:21:27 <sipa> correct
150 2013-10-29 00:21:29 <sipa> how much?
151 2013-10-29 00:21:41 <melvster> 4:3
152 2013-10-29 00:21:48 <melvster> so about 33% more
153 2013-10-29 00:21:51 <sipa> yup
154 2013-10-29 00:22:26 <sipa> however, this only occurs significantly when the modulus is close to the range
155 2013-10-29 00:22:41 <melvster> yes
156 2013-10-29 00:22:43 <sipa> but cutting away values results always in a uniform result
157 2013-10-29 00:23:01 <sipa> while for modulo, you need the modulus to be a divisor of the range
158 2013-10-29 00:24:06 <melvster> right thanks, now to translate this into javascript ...
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161 2013-10-29 00:26:00 <melvster> sipa: however you did make an assumption that the winning hashes are random ... a miner with OCD might only submit results of a certain pattern :)
162 2013-10-29 00:26:40 <sipa> this would be a poor miner
163 2013-10-29 00:26:42 <sipa> literally
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177 2013-10-29 01:08:35 <gmaxwell> hm, I didn't think we were banning for this:
178 2013-10-29 01:08:36 <gmaxwell> 2013-10-26 17:13:52 ERROR: CheckTransaction() : vin empty
179 2013-10-29 01:08:36 <gmaxwell> 2013-10-26 17:13:52 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : CheckTransaction failed
180 2013-10-29 01:08:37 <gmaxwell> 2013-10-26 17:13:52 Misbehaving: bitcoinnz4ijlbqc.onion:8333 (90 -> 100) DISCONNECTING
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184 2013-10-29 01:11:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: otherwise we'd likely never have heard about the problem
185 2013-10-29 01:11:40 <sipa> and we should ban for it, it's an unambiguously invalid transaction
186 2013-10-29 01:11:50 one_zero has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
187 2013-10-29 01:11:53 <warren> sipa: I'm integrating watchonly with Coin Control...
188 2013-10-29 01:12:08 <warren> COutput(const CWalletTx *txIn, int iIn, int nDepthIn, bool fSpendableIn)
189 2013-10-29 01:12:25 <warren> Coin Control uses the previous version of this function which lacks the bool fSpendableIn
190 2013-10-29 01:12:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: ah well I do take my logs from time to time and grep -v out all the boring stuff.
191 2013-10-29 01:13:30 <warren> hmm
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197 2013-10-29 01:32:05 <_alp_> test
198 2013-10-29 01:32:10 mhanne has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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200 2013-10-29 01:32:34 <_alp_> Anyone use intellij idea with protobuf?
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208 2013-10-29 01:38:14 <melvster> is this formula for calculating target correct for both version 1 and 2?
209 2013-10-29 01:38:19 <melvster> 0x0404cb * 2**(8*(0x1b - 3)) = 0x00000000000404CB000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
210 2013-10-29 01:38:29 <melvster> as per https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty
211 2013-10-29 01:38:49 <maaku> melvster: difficulty doesn't change between versions
212 2013-10-29 01:39:07 <melvster> maaku: thx i seem to have a couple of 0s more than i thought
213 2013-10-29 01:39:10 * melvster debugging
214 2013-10-29 01:39:41 <melvster> 0x1b - 3 // that;s correct?
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216 2013-10-29 01:41:08 <melvster> oh maybe it's right
217 2013-10-29 01:41:16 <melvster> could be this whole uniform distribution thing
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220 2013-10-29 01:49:44 <warren> sipa: for watchonly outputs, should I exclude them entirely from the coincontroldialog or display them but greyed out, not selectable?
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223 2013-10-29 01:50:18 <warren> anyone else have an opinion?
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226 2013-10-29 01:52:43 <_alp_> Is it useful to display it non-selectable?
227 2013-10-29 01:52:48 <_alp_> or more confusing
228 2013-10-29 01:53:02 <warren> dunno
229 2013-10-29 01:53:06 <warren> it already shows up as part of the balance
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232 2013-10-29 01:54:14 <_alp_> Could you use it to construct an offline tx?
233 2013-10-29 01:55:54 <warren> The coincontroldialog wouldn't be useful for that.
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237 2013-10-29 01:59:17 <Luke-Jr> warren: whatever you go with, it should be consistent with other unspendable coins (generation < 100 blocks)
238 2013-10-29 01:59:23 <Luke-Jr> warren: right now that means don't show it at all
239 2013-10-29 01:59:40 <Luke-Jr> warren: it doesn't really make sense for the watchonly stuff though!
240 2013-10-29 01:59:54 <Luke-Jr> since that's address-based, and shouldn't involve the output side of things
241 2013-10-29 02:00:24 <Luke-Jr> watchonly should just be showing recieves adding up to some total
242 2013-10-29 02:00:24 <warren> Luke-Jr: not my decision, I'm just implementing something and people can decide otherwise
243 2013-10-29 02:00:35 <Luke-Jr> warren: I mean it's logically nonsensical
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245 2013-10-29 02:00:40 <warren> excluding it from the selector seems wise
246 2013-10-29 02:00:45 <Luke-Jr> addresses don't have outputs
247 2013-10-29 02:00:55 <warren> Luke-Jr: right now coincontrol thinks it does =)
248 2013-10-29 02:01:04 <Luke-Jr> warren: sounds like a bug in the watchonly patch
249 2013-10-29 02:01:17 <Luke-Jr> when the coins the address received are spent, is it showign that too?
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251 2013-10-29 02:01:46 <warren> no
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253 2013-10-29 02:01:59 <Luke-Jr> hm, odd
254 2013-10-29 02:02:07 <Luke-Jr> maybe just a watchonly+coincontrol conflict
255 2013-10-29 02:02:32 <warren> yea, htey were never tested together
256 2013-10-29 02:02:41 <warren> I'm thinking of the best way to exclude the watchonly outputs
257 2013-10-29 02:03:00 <Luke-Jr> probably right
258 2013-10-29 02:03:08 <warren> btw, please ACK Coin Control, it's pretty much done
259 2013-10-29 02:03:14 <warren> please review
260 2013-10-29 02:04:05 <warren> AvailableCoins() already excludes immature
261 2013-10-29 02:04:06 <warren> if (pcoin->IsCoinBase() && pcoin->GetBlocksToMaturity() > 0)
262 2013-10-29 02:04:06 <warren> continue;
263 2013-10-29 02:04:28 <Luke-Jr> didn't I already?
264 2013-10-29 02:04:43 <warren> but AvailableCoins() is literally "available", which is a superset of spendable
265 2013-10-29 02:05:49 <warren> coincontroldialog doesn't even use AvailableCoins at all
266 2013-10-29 02:07:16 <Luke-Jr> Available = spendable..
267 2013-10-29 02:07:24 <warren> not according to watchonly
268 2013-10-29 02:07:32 <warren> if you have a problem with that, comment there
269 2013-10-29 02:07:56 <Luke-Jr> the current watchonly PR is just a hack in any case, not something for serious merge consideration
270 2013-10-29 02:07:57 <warren> IsMine() has three states
271 2013-10-29 02:08:04 <warren> really?
272 2013-10-29 02:08:09 <Luke-Jr> ..yes
273 2013-10-29 02:08:33 <Luke-Jr> there are no valid use cases covered by the current watchonly PR
274 2013-10-29 02:09:03 <Luke-Jr> I'm sure we'll have watchonly at some point, but not in this form..
275 2013-10-29 02:09:07 <warren> write that if you think so
276 2013-10-29 02:09:10 <warren> it seems pretty complete to me
277 2013-10-29 02:09:36 <warren> write a substantive reason though
278 2013-10-29 02:09:38 <Luke-Jr> already did
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295 2013-10-29 02:30:18 <warren> I'm actually stuck.
296 2013-10-29 02:31:17 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2343/files Coin Control uses getOutputs() to populate the outputs. The watchonly outpoints are included in those outputs.
297 2013-10-29 02:32:04 <warren> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/22b7d09218d2cb177ab6b91747af43c1833bceec but I can't figure out how to use either variant of IsMine() (in src/script.cpp) on an outpoint
298 2013-10-29 02:33:51 <warren> There is no CTxDestination or CScript for just an address
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303 2013-10-29 02:42:53 <melvster> what's the difference between version 1 and version 2 in the header?
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311 2013-10-29 02:52:20 <Luke-Jr> melvster: v2 blocks have the height in the coinbase
312 2013-10-29 02:53:00 <melvster> Luke-Jr: oh that's a cool feature, do you know why that is?
313 2013-10-29 02:53:02 <warren> I might have figured it out...
314 2013-10-29 02:54:05 davec has joined
315 2013-10-29 02:55:29 <melvster> ah ha BIP 34 - block version 2, height in coinbase
316 2013-10-29 02:55:31 <Luke-Jr> melvster: forces generation transactions to be unique
317 2013-10-29 02:55:46 <Luke-Jr> melvster: before, you could have two transactions with the same txid
318 2013-10-29 02:55:51 <Luke-Jr> which created bugs
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367 2013-10-29 04:03:12 <warren> I figured out how to fix this ... AvailableCoins needs another parameter.
368 2013-10-29 04:03:58 random_cat_ has joined
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370 2013-10-29 04:04:24 dgolds has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
371 2013-10-29 04:07:14 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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373 2013-10-29 04:08:49 debiantoruser has joined
374 2013-10-29 04:09:42 Ascendion has joined
375 2013-10-29 04:09:46 <Ascendion> ;;blocks
376 2013-10-29 04:09:47 <gribble> 266645
377 2013-10-29 04:12:18 transisto has quit ()
378 2013-10-29 04:12:32 * BlueMatt ponders generic "txdb lookup" rules in blocktester that call getrawtransaction rpcs to check rpc server and allow arbitrary txdb inspection
379 2013-10-29 04:13:31 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: kinda lame to make it less blackbox, as that makes it less useful for testing third party implementations.
380 2013-10-29 04:13:41 <gmaxwell> It's superior, where possible, to test for those things by spending them.
381 2013-10-29 04:14:13 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: the goal is mostly to test rpc support as well, its really to provide an excuse to bloat the thing into a full-feature bitcoind tester
382 2013-10-29 04:14:29 <BlueMatt> but by making the rule checker for inspect-txdb pluggable any implementation could do whatever calls they need to do so
383 2013-10-29 04:14:37 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
384 2013-10-29 04:14:57 <gmaxwell> If you do go that route please make sure its optional, making it less useful for testing compliance with other implementations would be a major loss, and hardly worth the improvement for bitcoind alone.
385 2013-10-29 04:15:15 <BlueMatt> default checker can ofc be "looks good"
386 2013-10-29 04:15:32 <gmaxwell> fine enough. :)
387 2013-10-29 04:15:34 <BlueMatt> or maybe Ill just add 100 new tests
388 2013-10-29 04:15:53 * BlueMatt has ~hour to kill waiting for dd to finish
389 2013-10-29 04:15:56 patcon has joined
390 2013-10-29 04:17:32 <warren> - COutput(const CWalletTx *txIn, int iIn, int nDepthIn)
391 2013-10-29 04:17:32 <warren> + COutput(const CWalletTx *txIn, int iIn, int nDepthIn, bool fSpendableIn)
392 2013-10-29 04:17:51 <warren> sipa: I'm curious what is the purpose of this additional parameter? None of your code actually uses it.
393 2013-10-29 04:18:39 <warren> sipa: it might be more useful as a tri-state enum, but even then it is redundant in the context of coin control, unless you have some other plan for it.
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420 2013-10-29 05:19:37 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell/sipa: for the lazy: block-tester now magically pulls in all the transactions/scripts in src/data/{tx,script}_{invalid,valid}.json and reorgs on/off of those blocks :)
421 2013-10-29 05:19:44 <BlueMatt> now you have no excuse for not adding tests
422 2013-10-29 05:20:07 <BlueMatt> well, ok, its manual and requires jar-regeneration, but at least its a start
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428 2013-10-29 05:27:07 <dobry-den> I just sent all my peers (dotimes [_ 1000000] (send-message :ping)) and got 1000000 pongs from each one
429 2013-10-29 05:27:42 canooon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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433 2013-10-29 05:30:48 <Krellan> dobry-den: Nice
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437 2013-10-29 05:31:59 <dobry-den> 100,000*
438 2013-10-29 05:33:48 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
439 2013-10-29 05:33:59 <dobry-den> i added a few orders of magnitude but lost ssh connection to my server as they were ponging
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455 2013-10-29 05:48:17 <Krellan> dobry-den: just doing a lot of flood pinging for testing?
456 2013-10-29 05:49:16 asuk has joined
457 2013-10-29 05:50:09 <Krellan> dobry-den: see any "pong" messages in the debug log?
458 2013-10-29 05:51:47 <weex> sipa: i tried building the watchonly wallet on ubuntu 12.04 server as per coinpunk and in "./configure --without-qt" i get "configure: error: Could not link against boost_thread-mt !"
459 2013-10-29 05:52:48 <weex> do i need to build boost 1.54 manually or should it work with whatever ubuntu supplied or is it some other problem?
460 2013-10-29 05:54:26 <dobry-den> Krellan: I've been tracking down Satoshi client behavior to emulate it in my own client.
461 2013-10-29 05:54:37 <dobry-den> I'm not so sure I will emulate this feature, though.
462 2013-10-29 05:56:46 <Krellan> dobry-den: I made the patch that gets ping/pong to measure the ping time
463 2013-10-29 05:57:34 <Krellan> It only remembers 1 nonce per peer, though, so if you flood ping, you will see a lot of nonce mismatches, but that's normal, because you're getting ahead of the peer.
464 2013-10-29 05:57:43 <Krellan> Haven't tried sending out 1M pings in a row, though.
465 2013-10-29 05:57:49 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
466 2013-10-29 05:59:43 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
467 2013-10-29 06:00:49 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #432: STILL FAILING in 3 hr 59 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/432/
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476 2013-10-29 06:12:19 <warren> Does bitcoind know how to handle multi-homed hosts?
477 2013-10-29 06:13:07 <dobry-den> Krellan: are you saying it's supposed to be rate-limited?
478 2013-10-29 06:15:11 <dobry-den> my own node is almost autonomous so i will start barraging it with junk data soon to see how i can get it to fail
479 2013-10-29 06:15:15 <Krellan> dobry-den: I was curious if it had any side effects when pinging that fast. At first I thought about rate limits but that would just complicate the implementation and prevent people from doing interesting things.
480 2013-10-29 06:16:00 <Krellan> Nice. Hopefully your node was not the node that was giving me truncated pong replies, or always pong replying with 0 (no matter what the ping nonce was).
481 2013-10-29 06:17:48 asuk has quit ()
482 2013-10-29 06:20:13 jeewee has joined
483 2013-10-29 06:20:31 <dobry-den> haha, ive neglected to even implement pong yet
484 2013-10-29 06:21:09 <dobry-den> which was actually what i was doing - see what kind of rate-limiting there is
485 2013-10-29 06:21:49 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2839 btw, does this work for anyone? doesn't work for me.
486 2013-10-29 06:29:54 edcba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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490 2013-10-29 06:34:32 <Krellan> Alternative clients are a good thing, I think. Avoid a software monoculture.
491 2013-10-29 06:35:00 ircuser-6 has joined
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493 2013-10-29 06:36:11 eoss has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
494 2013-10-29 06:36:54 <gmaxwell> Krellan: there are only a few thousand stable full nodes, there is very little risk of a "monoculture" of bitcoind/bitcoin-qt anymore.
495 2013-10-29 06:36:54 <dobry-den> gmaxwell: wow, really?
496 2013-10-29 06:37:26 <gmaxwell> s/stable/stable and reachable/ to be clear.
497 2013-10-29 06:37:51 Sidnicious has joined
498 2013-10-29 06:38:01 <gmaxwell> (obviously you can't count the ones you can't connect to, and there are a large but unknown number of those)
499 2013-10-29 06:38:14 zacm_ has left ()
500 2013-10-29 06:38:19 <gmaxwell> (but, you know, since you can't connect to them, they're also less consequential for the network)
501 2013-10-29 06:38:39 zacm has joined
502 2013-10-29 06:38:39 <Krellan> Good point.
503 2013-10-29 06:40:46 <dobry-den> that's not very many nodes to dos
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506 2013-10-29 06:42:15 <Krellan> Other than blockchain.info, are there other services that attempt to walk the entire p2p network and count all nodes?
507 2013-10-29 06:42:38 <dobry-den> that's actually what i'm working on personally
508 2013-10-29 06:43:02 <Krellan> http://blockchain.info/connected-nodes
509 2013-10-29 06:43:13 <Krellan> cool, would be useful to visualize.
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517 2013-10-29 07:00:53 <warren> my bitcoin -testnet is failing to find any peers
518 2013-10-29 07:00:58 edcba has joined
519 2013-10-29 07:01:25 <petertodd> warren: hmm... that's bad, testnet-seed.bitcoin.petertodd.org doesn't resolve for me...
520 2013-10-29 07:01:38 <warren> petertodd: blame whoever owns that domain
521 2013-10-29 07:01:52 <petertodd> petertodd: go fix your testnet seed
522 2013-10-29 07:01:55 <petertodd> oh wait...
523 2013-10-29 07:02:25 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
524 2013-10-29 07:03:03 <warren> hmm, never seen this before
525 2013-10-29 07:03:04 <warren> received block 000000002eeb8e439cf935518b3dfdc48f5c36459adc1c6924a6bf9bb57f6ce1
526 2013-10-29 07:03:04 <warren> InvalidChainFound: invalid block=000000002eeb8e439cf935518b3dfdc48f5c36459adc1c6924a6bf9bb57f6ce1 height=20545 log2_work=48.558875 date=2012-08-19 01:06:37
527 2013-10-29 07:03:04 <warren> InvalidChainFound: current best=00000000df41ce12e452e598926692eaac6bf78416d6022d421a98cd769bb92c height=545 log2_work=41.092779 date=2012-05-25 17:13:50
528 2013-10-29 07:03:04 <warren> InvalidChainFound: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
529 2013-10-29 07:03:07 <warren> ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
530 2013-10-29 07:03:19 <petertodd> on testnet?
531 2013-10-29 07:03:24 <warren> yes
532 2013-10-29 07:03:26 <petertodd> hmm
533 2013-10-29 07:03:53 <warren> what does that mean?
534 2013-10-29 07:04:20 <petertodd> 545 is the checkpoint
535 2013-10-29 07:06:31 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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538 2013-10-29 07:07:51 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
539 2013-10-29 07:08:25 propumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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543 2013-10-29 07:13:17 <warren> 0.8.5 vanilla has the same invalid chain errors
544 2013-10-29 07:13:30 <warren> does this mean my data is corrupted?
545 2013-10-29 07:14:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|<warren> Does bitcoind know how to handle multi-homed hosts?
546 2013-10-29 07:14:32 <petertodd> hmm... could be
547 2013-10-29 07:15:00 <warren> reindex seems to have fixed it
548 2013-10-29 07:15:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I know it does dual-stack tor/ipv4
549 2013-10-29 07:15:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't know if it handles multiple ipv4 addresses the same way
550 2013-10-29 07:15:46 <warren> I'm guessing it accepts incoming connections to any
551 2013-10-29 07:16:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If your multiple homes are directly internet-reachable, maybe if you add externalip= lines for each of your connections
552 2013-10-29 07:16:25 <petertodd> try this please: dig @testnet-seed-ns2.bitcoin.petertodd.org testnet-seed.bitcoin.petertodd.org
553 2013-10-29 07:16:35 <petertodd> are multiple IP's being returned?
554 2013-10-29 07:16:41 deepc0re has joined
555 2013-10-29 07:17:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|My conf has externalip=myhiddenservice.onion and discover=1, but I suspect that may not work as well for multihomed
556 2013-10-29 07:17:35 <warren> petertodd: http://pastebin.com/facBPgGw
557 2013-10-29 07:17:47 <petertodd> cool
558 2013-10-29 07:17:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Since afaik it doesn't try to discover on each network interface
559 2013-10-29 07:18:31 <warren> michagogo|cloud: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3088 review and test this to improve discover=1
560 2013-10-29 07:18:46 sustrik has joined
561 2013-10-29 07:19:09 <warren> anyone have a heavily used testnet address? I want to test a mixed watchonly and real address wallet.
562 2013-10-29 07:19:43 <warren> http://testnet.mojocoin.com/ someone has been emptying the testnet faucet ...
563 2013-10-29 07:20:01 jmd has joined
564 2013-10-29 07:21:00 <jmd> From where can I get some testnet bitcoins ?
565 2013-10-29 07:21:00 rajukaputasana has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
566 2013-10-29 07:23:46 <petertodd> also, please try: dig @testnet-seed-ns1.bitcoin.petertodd.org testnet-seed.bitcoin.petertodd.org
567 2013-10-29 07:24:21 rajukaputasana has joined
568 2013-10-29 07:27:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|warren: at the moment, I can't really test anything -- my computer is being repaired
569 2013-10-29 07:27:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|:-/
570 2013-10-29 07:28:59 deepc0re has quit (Quit: deepc0re)
571 2013-10-29 07:29:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Also, a while back I think there was some bot that drained the faucet [the one that now requires a captcha] -- if you find that address, it should have a lot of traffic)
572 2013-10-29 07:31:58 <jmd> Captchas never work for me.
573 2013-10-29 07:32:43 sustrik has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
574 2013-10-29 07:33:03 <jmd> The problem is, that with most browsers, to see the capture image, you invalidate it.
575 2013-10-29 07:37:28 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
576 2013-10-29 07:37:41 jeewee has joined
577 2013-10-29 07:38:46 <petertodd> again: could someone please try dig @testnet-seed-ns1.bitcoin.petertodd.org testnet-seed.bitcoin.petertodd.org on your machine
578 2013-10-29 07:39:09 <warren> hmm, that testnet faucet failed to send me coins
579 2013-10-29 07:39:15 <warren> anyone have any testnet coins?
580 2013-10-29 07:39:25 Urushiol is now known as Urushiol-zZzz
581 2013-10-29 07:39:46 Eiii has joined
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584 2013-10-29 07:40:21 <petertodd> warren: run dig again for me and I'll look. (it's a different NS than last time)
585 2013-10-29 07:40:36 reizuki__ has quit (Read error: No route to host)
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587 2013-10-29 07:41:30 UukGoblin has quit (Changing host)
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589 2013-10-29 07:42:11 <warren> http://pastebin.com/uX7aFuaH
590 2013-10-29 07:42:12 rajukaputasana has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
591 2013-10-29 07:42:22 jeewee has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
592 2013-10-29 07:43:05 <petertodd> warren: gah, I'm getting something different - I wonder if my ISP is doing something with DNS?
593 2013-10-29 07:43:28 <petertodd> as for coins, looking through my wallets...
594 2013-10-29 07:44:06 <warren> petertodd: if you find testnet coins, I could use a hundred dust coins
595 2013-10-29 07:44:11 a_meteor has joined
596 2013-10-29 07:44:25 <petertodd> warren: cool, found some, addr to send too?
597 2013-10-29 07:45:14 <warren> petertodd: mmeRfyNguZj52H46buEYUqCiSkxZgyg8u9
598 2013-10-29 07:45:24 <warren> send a ton of dust please
599 2013-10-29 07:45:33 <petertodd> warren: sure, like 0.0001?
600 2013-10-29 07:45:36 <warren> whatever
601 2013-10-29 07:45:40 <petertodd> one sec...
602 2013-10-29 07:46:09 <warren> anyone available to do gitian builds?
603 2013-10-29 07:46:18 daktak has joined
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613 2013-10-29 07:56:41 <petertodd> warren: waiting on a block to send the dust
614 2013-10-29 07:57:06 <warren> petertodd: odd, I didn't see any zero conf
615 2013-10-29 07:57:36 <warren> 21:54:55
616 2013-10-29 07:57:36 <warren> 
617 2013-10-29 07:57:36 <warren> getnetworkhashps
618 2013-10-29 07:57:36 <warren> 21:54:55
619 2013-10-29 07:57:36 <warren> 
620 2013-10-29 07:57:37 <warren> 5840525364
621 2013-10-29 07:57:49 <petertodd> warren: nah, I screwed up when I transferred it from somewhere else, waiting for the tx to get mined so I can respend it
622 2013-10-29 07:58:41 <warren> It's CONFUSING to have watchonly and real addresses in hte same wallet, but it seems to work.
623 2013-10-29 08:00:01 ovidiusoft has joined
624 2013-10-29 08:00:30 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
625 2013-10-29 08:01:02 BNCatDIGISHELL has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
626 2013-10-29 08:01:50 Namworld has joined
627 2013-10-29 08:03:07 <jmd> How can I delete an account/address ?
628 2013-10-29 08:03:44 askmike has joined
629 2013-10-29 08:06:22 <petertodd> warren: 640e22b5ddee1f6d2d701e37877027221ba5b36027634a2e3c3ee1569b4aa179
630 2013-10-29 08:06:38 <petertodd> 10,000 single satoshi outputs
631 2013-10-29 08:07:02 atian has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
632 2013-10-29 08:07:24 <petertodd> warren: ha, lol, although because it's > 250k you'll have to mine the block yourself...
633 2013-10-29 08:07:49 <petertodd> I meant to do 1000 and added a zero :(
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637 2013-10-29 08:09:05 <petertodd> one sec, lemme mine that...
638 2013-10-29 08:09:33 <warren> petertodd: I have no hashpower at all =)
639 2013-10-29 08:09:48 OrP has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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645 2013-10-29 08:14:47 <petertodd> oh interesting, getblocktemplate returns the wrong difficulty for testnet... (ignores 20 minutes rule)
646 2013-10-29 08:15:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: Huh?
647 2013-10-29 08:15:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I haven't found that to be the case.
648 2013-10-29 08:16:16 <jgarzik> petertodd, well... the difficulty hasn't changed after 20 minutes
649 2013-10-29 08:16:25 <jgarzik> petertodd, we just permit an off-difficulty block to be mined
650 2013-10-29 08:16:29 pecket has quit (Quit: I'm not stupid. I'm just unlucky when I think.)
651 2013-10-29 08:16:43 <petertodd> right, well, somehow or another bfgminer needs to know to send diff 1.0 shares then
652 2013-10-29 08:17:53 <petertodd> ah, already known: https://github.com/luke-jr/bfgminer/issues/247
653 2013-10-29 08:18:46 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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656 2013-10-29 08:20:58 <warren> hmm
657 2013-10-29 08:21:09 <warren> when I build bitcoin-qt with leveldb-1.13 it takes forever for the qt window to pop up
658 2013-10-29 08:21:17 <warren> remove downgrade leveldb and it works fine
659 2013-10-29 08:21:48 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
660 2013-10-29 08:22:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: actually, that doesn't work
661 2013-10-29 08:22:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because it's the block timestamp that matters
662 2013-10-29 08:22:46 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: I know, it's been more than 20 minutes too
663 2013-10-29 08:22:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There *is* an actual bug, though
664 2013-10-29 08:23:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That being that when it hits the 20 minute mark it doesn't go down to diff 1
665 2013-10-29 08:23:43 <petertodd> michagogo|cloud: ? getdifficulty is returning 1 for me
666 2013-10-29 08:23:55 reizuki__ has joined
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668 2013-10-29 08:24:51 Eiii has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
669 2013-10-29 08:25:14 <petertodd> oh, actualy I'm getting the opposite problem: getdifficulty is stuck at 1
670 2013-10-29 08:26:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: that's not "difficulty to mine at"
671 2013-10-29 08:26:25 <petertodd> ?
672 2013-10-29 08:26:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's actually "difficulty of the last block
673 2013-10-29 08:26:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"
674 2013-10-29 08:26:38 <petertodd> that's not very useful...
675 2013-10-29 08:26:48 <petertodd> I could swear it used to be difficulty to mine at
676 2013-10-29 08:26:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, I found that out myself a few months ago when I wanted to mine a block to test
677 2013-10-29 08:27:09 <petertodd> odd, I wonder what changed
678 2013-10-29 08:27:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: if you want to see what diff to mine at, you need to gbt and look at target/nbits
679 2013-10-29 08:27:28 reizuki__ has quit (Read error: No route to host)
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683 2013-10-29 08:28:36 <petertodd> huh, go figure, I guess I'm wrong: GetDifficulty() hasn't changed for a year
684 2013-10-29 08:28:40 atian has joined
685 2013-10-29 08:30:07 adam3us has joined
686 2013-10-29 08:31:05 <petertodd> Well, in any case, testnet4 should include a captcha algorithm, so you can mine a diff 1.0 block by solving a captcha...
687 2013-10-29 08:31:22 <petertodd> heh, or maybe a bitcoin proof-of-sacrifice :/
688 2013-10-29 08:31:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: lol
689 2013-10-29 08:31:40 <petertodd> how the !@#$ is the diff 18.8k!
690 2013-10-29 08:31:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: there's already regtest for that :-P
691 2013-10-29 08:32:00 <petertodd> and why can't we have replace-by-fee to make it trivial to double-spend my mistaken overlarge tx?
692 2013-10-29 08:32:03 <petertodd> gah
693 2013-10-29 08:32:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|petertodd: some ***hole pointed a ton of hashpower at it
694 2013-10-29 08:32:31 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
695 2013-10-29 08:32:37 <adam3us> btw i ws thinking in the past (about captcha/proof of work) that it might be possible to create a non-interactive human pow
696 2013-10-29 08:32:49 <petertodd> adam3us: lol, really?
697 2013-10-29 08:33:04 agnostic98 has joined
698 2013-10-29 08:33:26 <adam3us> your computer fairly creates a problem that it can see would be hard but cant solve itself without the help of a human coprocessor
699 2013-10-29 08:33:47 <adam3us> and yet a computer can cheaply verify is somethign that only a human could've found
700 2013-10-29 08:34:23 <adam3us> eg something like a fairly chosen (hash of random number) visual shortest path or something computers find hard to do
701 2013-10-29 08:34:56 <adam3us> but because its non-interactive there is no scope for computers to fake them
702 2013-10-29 08:35:18 <adam3us> you could attach them to emails, mine a coin using human brain treadmill etc
703 2013-10-29 08:36:31 <petertodd> right
704 2013-10-29 08:36:56 <petertodd> make a coin out of it and you've got the biggest reward ever to break a captcha...
705 2013-10-29 08:37:13 daktak has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
706 2013-10-29 08:37:21 <petertodd> warren: there's some dust for you
707 2013-10-29 08:37:57 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
708 2013-10-29 08:38:07 <warren> petertodd: uneconomical!
709 2013-10-29 08:38:24 <petertodd> warren: oh, the single satoshi dust?
710 2013-10-29 08:38:32 <petertodd> warren: lol, you want bigger dust?
711 2013-10-29 08:38:59 <adam3us> yep.. the hard part is to make it secure (captchas are idiotic losing game to 0.01% successful OCR, and most OCR of is 99%) and to make it validatable by a computer .. eg the computer cant find good shortest path but it can measure the human shortest path and be impressed at how short it is
712 2013-10-29 08:39:58 <adam3us> tough to make that usefully secure so I didnt work on it further but its an interesting what if .. reverse hashcash, the human does the proof
713 2013-10-29 08:40:33 <petertodd> adam3us: bitmessage would be an interesting application for sure - they can afford to change algorithms relatively often too
714 2013-10-29 08:40:34 reizuki__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
715 2013-10-29 08:40:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|adam3us: but how can it verify that there isn't a shorter path?
716 2013-10-29 08:40:50 reizuki__ has joined
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718 2013-10-29 08:41:15 <adam3us> indeed it cant find shortest paths; but maybe it can statistically understand that this is an impressively short path given the scene complexity
719 2013-10-29 08:41:29 <adam3us> eg it can try it self using a shortest path algorithm for a short while and do far worse
720 2013-10-29 08:42:53 <adam3us> anyway humans are very efficient at finding heuristic but not quite optimal shortest paths; its not clear that it is inherently hard - eg the cpus in puny satnavs can find some heuristic shortest path with limited effort given the puny arm cpu or whatever is in them and the need for a < 1min result
721 2013-10-29 08:43:02 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
722 2013-10-29 08:43:08 <adam3us> an actual optimal shortest path is hard
723 2013-10-29 08:44:06 <adam3us> but then humans arent good at finding them either; i did wonder if it might be possible to construct a randomly generated scene with an algorithmically known shortest path length, without the software generating the scene knowing the path
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731 2013-10-29 09:00:47 <sipa> Krellan: the dns seeds also crawl the network
732 2013-10-29 09:01:16 <sipa> warren: really? are you sure it is leveldb 1.13 causing a slowdown and not your disk cache?
733 2013-10-29 09:02:07 <warren> sipa: I was wrong
734 2013-10-29 09:02:17 <warren> sipa: I have notes on watchonly, slight revision
735 2013-10-29 09:03:16 <sipa> warren: i did test #2839; in what way does it not work?
736 2013-10-29 09:03:57 <warren> is that bannode?
737 2013-10-29 09:04:07 <warren> it gets listed in the ban list but doesn't disconnect it
738 2013-10-29 09:04:08 agnostic98 has joined
739 2013-10-29 09:04:35 <sipa> weex: you may need to install some extra packages yes
740 2013-10-29 09:05:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: nice! (tx/script valid/invalid)
741 2013-10-29 09:06:17 <petertodd> sipa, BlueMatt: ?
742 2013-10-29 09:07:49 t7 has joined
743 2013-10-29 09:09:53 <sipa> warren: huh? fSpendable should be used in coin selection
744 2013-10-29 09:10:54 _ingsoc has joined
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746 2013-10-29 09:11:39 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
747 2013-10-29 09:11:40 <warren> sipa: I tried hard to use it, it is available too late
748 2013-10-29 09:11:56 <warren> sipa: perhaps you can think of a better way to integrate it than I came up with
749 2013-10-29 09:12:14 <warren> sipa: https://github.com/litecoin-project/bitcoinomg/commits/bitcoin-omg-0.8
750 2013-10-29 09:12:17 <sipa> warren: greying out unspendable coins would be cool
751 2013-10-29 09:12:38 <warren> sipa: I got some feedback on that and people didn't like it, it would also require a lot more work in Coin Control for no real benefit.
752 2013-10-29 09:13:00 Anduck has joined
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754 2013-10-29 09:13:27 <sipa> ok
755 2013-10-29 09:14:17 <sipa> i do think being able to see coins assigned to watchonly addresses is useful though
756 2013-10-29 09:14:30 <sipa> but you should probably be able to disable it
757 2013-10-29 09:14:34 <warren> is that really the job of coin control?
758 2013-10-29 09:14:37 gavinandresen has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
759 2013-10-29 09:15:21 <sipa> imho the purpose of coin control is breaking the wallet abstraction
760 2013-10-29 09:15:42 <sipa> giving transparency into how bitcoin at a lower level works
761 2013-10-29 09:16:34 <sipa> the intended purpose of coin control (individually managing coins) imho is micromanagement and not that useful as such (or better: if there is a need for that, we need higher-level solutions to deal with that)
762 2013-10-29 09:17:10 wereHamster has quit (work!~tomc@unaffiliated/werehamster|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
763 2013-10-29 09:17:11 <warren> the current design in walletmodel.cpp would need significant refactoring to use fSpendable
764 2013-10-29 09:17:19 <sipa> multiwallet e.g. can do what most people want to do with coin control in an easier way (preventing linkage)
765 2013-10-29 09:17:37 <sipa> really? is it more than passing through the boolean?
766 2013-10-29 09:17:50 <sipa> i have no clue about gui code, but can't imagine it's hard
767 2013-10-29 09:18:14 <warren> I dug through it for hours trying to figure out how to make it use fSpendable
768 2013-10-29 09:18:32 <warren> the simplest code change to make it work was to add a boolean to AvailableCoins() to filter out the watchonly
769 2013-10-29 09:19:00 <warren> sipa: right now we have two well tested and working patches that aren't designed together, let's merge both, then look at refactoring them together.
770 2013-10-29 09:19:12 <warren> Coin Control could be refactored to perform better
771 2013-10-29 09:20:32 <sipa> if it changes performance, it's not a refactor :)
772 2013-10-29 09:20:54 <warren> right .... rewrite
773 2013-10-29 09:21:01 <sipa> warren: does.coin control deal with locked coins?
774 2013-10-29 09:21:04 <warren> sipa: yes
775 2013-10-29 09:21:10 <warren> just not optimally
776 2013-10-29 09:21:14 <warren> the entire thing isn't optimal
777 2013-10-29 09:21:17 <sipa> so expose watxhonly coins as locked in it
778 2013-10-29 09:21:20 <warren> it works very stably though
779 2013-10-29 09:21:37 <warren> sipa: it took forever to get to this point, it works great today, let's improve it after merge?
780 2013-10-29 09:22:05 <sipa> sure
781 2013-10-29 09:22:52 <warren> Coin Control has the most eyeballs right now, let's merge that, then perhaps add my patch to watchonly
782 2013-10-29 09:23:43 <sipa> merging coin co trol is up to wumpus
783 2013-10-29 09:24:02 <sipa> i think i acked the changes to core a long time ago
784 2013-10-29 09:24:21 <warren> the recent changes were polish
785 2013-10-29 09:24:33 <warren> and getting rid of duplicate values that can be derived from elsewhere
786 2013-10-29 09:24:38 <warren> and wrong timezone display
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807 2013-10-29 10:07:19 <swulf--> ;;tslb
808 2013-10-29 10:07:23 <gribble> Time since last block: 24 minutes and 35 seconds
809 2013-10-29 10:07:26 <swulf--> geez
810 2013-10-29 10:07:50 FabianB has joined
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813 2013-10-29 10:08:57 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: leaving)
814 2013-10-29 10:13:51 <swulf--> maybe all the miners have decided to give up mining
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858 2013-10-29 11:21:37 <stonecoldpat> silly question - with the proof of work - the difficulty is the number of zeros that need to be found - and the zeros is part of the ascii string like 000000000000000179df812dd55d61d488b6b1218dc57f02af78c05cddf5321c and not the binary of it?
859 2013-10-29 11:21:58 <TD> no. difficulty is whether the hash when treated as an integer is lower than the target integer
860 2013-10-29 11:22:40 * TD -> lunch
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862 2013-10-29 11:26:48 <bitnumus> Whats planned for handling the size of the change?
863 2013-10-29 11:26:50 <bitnumus> chain*
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881 2013-10-29 11:40:49 <sipa> bitnumus: ?
882 2013-10-29 11:42:32 <sipa> stonecoldpat: the difficulty is the ratio between the maximum target (0x00000000FFFF0000000000...) and the actual target
883 2013-10-29 11:42:47 <sipa> stonecoldpat: and a block's has needs to be below the actual target to be valid
884 2013-10-29 11:45:17 pecket has joined
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886 2013-10-29 11:46:58 <bitnumus> sipa, i'm looking to run bitcoind on a small device, because the SPV clients aren't yet stable enough
887 2013-10-29 11:47:15 dgolds has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
888 2013-10-29 11:47:22 <sipa> what is the contrained resource?
889 2013-10-29 11:47:22 <bitnumus> so just wondering if there are any plans for an 'official SPV' client, or if there are plans in the future to handle the size of the chain a different way
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891 2013-10-29 11:47:31 <sipa> yes, block pruning is planned
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893 2013-10-29 11:47:38 <bitnumus> flash memory on a small device basically
894 2013-10-29 11:47:38 <sipa> probably not for 0.9 though
895 2013-10-29 11:47:57 <sipa> something like a few hundred MiB storage should suffice
896 2013-10-29 11:48:06 <sipa> (for now)
897 2013-10-29 11:48:08 <bitnumus> <sipa> something like a few hundred MiB storage should suffice < in the future?
898 2013-10-29 11:48:13 <Apocalyptic> bitnumus, these day you can buy a quite decent flash storage device
899 2013-10-29 11:48:15 <sipa> yes, when block pruning is implemented
900 2013-10-29 11:48:23 <bitnumus> that would be great :D
901 2013-10-29 11:48:40 <bitnumus> Apocalyptic, need a 32gb, its not that cheap when you are trying to keep costs down
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907 2013-10-29 11:53:54 <stonecoldpat> sipa/td: I'm having a little read about it now - so if the hash was abc, we convert abc to binary (011000010110001001100011) then to an int (6382179) - if the max target was 1,000,000,000 and the current target is 1,000,000 then (max target)1,000,000,000 / (current target)1,000,000 = (difficulty) 1000..... so 1000 is the 'difficulty' and this block is invalid as 6,382,179 > 1,000,000....
908 2013-10-29 11:53:54 <stonecoldpat> is that along the right lines?
909 2013-10-29 11:54:30 <stonecoldpat> I only ask as i've been trying to do a bit of reading about how it all works - and i assumed the difficulty was the number of zeros (and a colleague thought it was the number of zeros in the binary)
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912 2013-10-29 11:57:08 <sipa> stonecoldpat: correct
913 2013-10-29 11:57:21 <sipa> except target and max target and hash output are 256 bits
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915 2013-10-29 11:57:38 <sipa> so much larger numbers
916 2013-10-29 11:58:11 <sipa> ;;calc 2**256 / (2**48 / 65535)
917 2013-10-29 11:58:13 <gribble> 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960
918 2013-10-29 11:58:22 <sipa> ^ actual max target
919 2013-10-29 11:59:39 <stonecoldpat> awesome, thank you. hoping someday to write a clear guide on how it all works, at the moment its quite hard to figure out how it works (hoping from one page to the next)
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969 2013-10-29 13:16:28 <skinnkavaj> Wow Bitcoin Oh My God looks nice
970 2013-10-29 13:16:36 <skinnkavaj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320695
971 2013-10-29 13:18:29 <TD> given the name i was expecting more
972 2013-10-29 13:19:12 <skinnkavaj> TD: I am so scared that one bug or failuare and this bitcoin dead.
973 2013-10-29 13:19:50 <skinnkavaj> As long as development continue bugs will continue to happen
974 2013-10-29 13:20:07 <MC1984_> wow
975 2013-10-29 13:20:08 <skinnkavaj> Maybe just FUD, but I am scared
976 2013-10-29 13:20:09 <MC1984_> such fork
977 2013-10-29 13:20:12 <MC1984_> so open source
978 2013-10-29 13:20:14 <MC1984_> wow
979 2013-10-29 13:21:00 <skinnkavaj> coblee's getnetworkhashps
980 2013-10-29 13:21:02 <skinnkavaj> What is this?
981 2013-10-29 13:21:05 <MC1984_> bitcoin cant simply be forked like a normal OSS project
982 2013-10-29 13:21:10 roconnor has joined
983 2013-10-29 13:21:30 <MC1984_> its unusual in that each instance isnt really an instance, its an integral part of the whole
984 2013-10-29 13:21:32 <helo> of course it can ;)
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987 2013-10-29 13:22:04 <MC1984_> well it can but the potential for unforeseen consequences is high to put it mildly
988 2013-10-29 13:22:50 <helo> bitcoin institutes a weird kind of control over its userbase (the whole world, really)
989 2013-10-29 13:23:28 <MC1984_> control?
990 2013-10-29 13:24:31 <helo> it's this massive behemoth that sustains itself with our greed and enthusiasm
991 2013-10-29 13:26:36 wereHamster has joined
992 2013-10-29 13:27:02 <MC1984_> wut
993 2013-10-29 13:27:12 <MC1984_> bitcoin is not eve online
994 2013-10-29 13:29:45 Cioran has quit ()
995 2013-10-29 13:29:46 <kjj> very similar, actually. at least so far
996 2013-10-29 13:30:03 <helo> it's quite a game, definitely
997 2013-10-29 13:30:06 <kjj> in eve, the payment button is labelled "Donate", just like in bitcoin
998 2013-10-29 13:30:09 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
999 2013-10-29 13:30:17 <Apocalyptic> :)
1000 2013-10-29 13:30:20 Cioran has joined
1001 2013-10-29 13:30:43 <kjj> the payment protocol will change that, somewhat
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1053 2013-10-29 14:44:03 <dobry-den> Is there an official stance on client-level rate-limiting for inbound messages?
1054 2013-10-29 14:44:13 <dobry-den> I notice that some messages are rate-limited
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1064 2013-10-29 15:04:02 <HM2> why would rate limiting inbound messages make sense?
1065 2013-10-29 15:04:07 <HM2> replies for sure
1066 2013-10-29 15:04:41 <sipa> for relay of spammy transactions, there is rate-limiting
1067 2013-10-29 15:04:49 <sipa> that is not rate-limiting the P2P connection itself
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1079 2013-10-29 15:13:41 <dobry-den> HM2: it's not my domain, but i didn't expect to be able to flood nodes with ping messages
1080 2013-10-29 15:13:47 <dobry-den> for example
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1082 2013-10-29 15:14:02 <dobry-den> i would've expected perhaps a misbehave flag to get thrown at some point
1083 2013-10-29 15:14:57 <sipa> we certainly need some resource limitation at some point
1084 2013-10-29 15:15:00 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1085 2013-10-29 15:15:19 <sipa> but measuring cpu/memory/io bandwidth/network bandwidth per peer are not that trivial
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1088 2013-10-29 15:18:26 <HM2> sipa, you could always fork() for every connection :P
1089 2013-10-29 15:18:36 <sipa> eh, no
1090 2013-10-29 15:18:45 <sipa> there is a shared data structure
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1092 2013-10-29 15:21:28 <dobry-den> i'll be doing some robustness checks on the node i'm developing, which i also run against my Satoshi node. so i'll try to advance the discussion when i get there.
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1119 2013-10-29 15:58:09 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: michagogo|cloud: sorry, I don't think BFGMiner should go out of its way to try to fudge a timestamp and ignore a target just to abuse a testnet-specific rule :p
1120 2013-10-29 15:58:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: yeah, I see where you're coming from
1121 2013-10-29 15:58:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There is, however, a bug relating to the testnet 20 minute rule
1122 2013-10-29 15:59:19 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|isn't sure whether he put the details of the bug in the comment he made earlier
1123 2013-10-29 15:59:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Did I explain it there?
1124 2013-10-29 15:59:35 <sipa> no idea; i think it's well known?
1125 2013-10-29 16:00:05 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: templates from bitcoind never expire, so BFGMiner has no reason to request a new one
1126 2013-10-29 16:00:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: it does if you give it the command-line parameter to do so
1127 2013-10-29 16:00:33 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: unless you manually set expiry or whatever option it is documented in README under solo mining
1128 2013-10-29 16:00:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, the bug is this
1129 2013-10-29 16:00:54 <Luke-Jr> but it makes better sense to just merge the longpolling PR
1130 2013-10-29 16:01:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|When running with whatever the flag is to expire the work, when it gets a template with regular diff
1131 2013-10-29 16:01:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And next time it checks, it gets a template with min diff
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1133 2013-10-29 16:01:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It doesn't handle that correctly
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1135 2013-10-29 16:02:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Or at least it didn't as of 4 months ago)
1136 2013-10-29 16:02:27 <sipa> does getblocktemplate have an expiration field?
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1139 2013-10-29 16:03:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There are 2 places in the interface that show diff, and only one of them gets updated, and it keeps using the high value for mining
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1163 2013-10-29 16:09:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it does, but bitcoind shouldn't use it
1164 2013-10-29 16:09:44 <sipa> it could, for testnet :)
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1166 2013-10-29 16:10:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: but it wouldn't be valid
1167 2013-10-29 16:10:23 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1168 2013-10-29 16:10:26 <Luke-Jr> the block doesn't expire :P
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1170 2013-10-29 16:10:49 <sipa> after 20 minutes pass, the current work does become invalid
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1172 2013-10-29 16:10:54 <Luke-Jr> no?
1173 2013-10-29 16:11:01 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind would still accept it
1174 2013-10-29 16:11:41 <sipa> really?
1175 2013-10-29 16:11:51 <Luke-Jr> ye
1176 2013-10-29 16:12:26 <sipa> does the nBits in such a block get reset?
1177 2013-10-29 16:12:35 <sipa> or just the implicit target
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1179 2013-10-29 16:12:49 <Luke-Jr> just implicit
1180 2013-10-29 16:12:52 <Luke-Jr> I think
1181 2013-10-29 16:12:59 <Luke-Jr> either way, it's based on the block timestamp
1182 2013-10-29 16:13:19 <sipa> ah right, of course
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1195 2013-10-29 16:19:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"<sipa> after 20 minutes pass, the current work does become invalid" <-- er, what?
1196 2013-10-29 16:19:19 <sipa> i was wrong
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1200 2013-10-29 16:25:30 <EasyAt> Hm, so I did a big nono and sent from the same wallet using 2 different nodes. It appears as if 1 node generated a new keypool. I lost access to the wallet with the new keypool. I had previously lumped all my coins into 1 output which was then sent to the new keypool. Is there something I don't know about to generate this keypool from the older backup?
1201 2013-10-29 16:26:17 <tcatm> If you're talking about bitcoin-qt that's not possible.
1202 2013-10-29 16:26:37 <EasyAt> I thought so, darn
1203 2013-10-29 16:27:21 <tcatm> You might be able to merge both wallets
1204 2013-10-29 16:27:42 <EasyAt> I don't have access to the wallet with the new keypool :\
1205 2013-10-29 16:28:25 <EasyAt> deterministic wallets can't come faster
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1207 2013-10-29 16:28:48 <tcatm> Did you sent only a single transaction?
1208 2013-10-29 16:29:09 <EasyAt> Maybe 1 or 2
1209 2013-10-29 16:29:27 <EasyAt> It was just perfect timeing for the keypool to refill
1210 2013-10-29 16:29:44 <tcatm> The keypool must have been much larger than that so your backup should contain the new addresses.
1211 2013-10-29 16:30:00 <EasyAt> Oh, I've sent hundreds from that wallet
1212 2013-10-29 16:30:16 <EasyAt> But only 1 or 2 between the backups
1213 2013-10-29 16:30:23 <sipa> hmm
1214 2013-10-29 16:30:46 <sipa> wait, did you send a transaction from one instance, while not having seen a transaction from the other yet?
1215 2013-10-29 16:31:47 <EasyAt> No, I started my wallet on a second machine. Did a TX or 2. The second node was up to date on all transactions
1216 2013-10-29 16:31:53 disconnecteddd has joined
1217 2013-10-29 16:32:24 <EasyAt> I did a -salvagewallet on a copy of the backup
1218 2013-10-29 16:32:32 <EasyAt> Didn't find anything
1219 2013-10-29 16:34:13 jakov has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1220 2013-10-29 16:34:57 <EasyAt> Though, I'm not really sure what a -salvage would have found
1221 2013-10-29 16:35:17 agnostic98 has joined
1222 2013-10-29 16:37:26 <EasyAt> I'm curious, why dod the reference client use a new seed when generating the next key pool. Wouldn't it be just as easy to use the seed that generated the first pool?
1223 2013-10-29 16:37:27 ichil has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1224 2013-10-29 16:37:32 <EasyAt> s/dod/does
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1226 2013-10-29 16:39:37 <sipa> EasyAt: there is no "seed"
1227 2013-10-29 16:39:43 mortikia has joined
1228 2013-10-29 16:39:46 <sipa> it's just filled with random keys
1229 2013-10-29 16:39:56 <EasyAt> Ah
1230 2013-10-29 16:40:04 <EasyAt> Okay, ty
1231 2013-10-29 16:41:06 dgolds has joined
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1233 2013-10-29 16:41:42 <sipa> once deterministic wallets are implemented, you'll have determinism :)
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1245 2013-10-29 16:53:23 <melvster> when modeling the genesis block, the previousHash is described as 0000... but more accurate would be to say there was no previousBlockHas
1246 2013-10-29 16:53:26 <melvster> h
1247 2013-10-29 16:53:39 <melvster> is that right?
1248 2013-10-29 16:53:46 <sipa> yes
1249 2013-10-29 16:53:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|melvster: corex
1250 2013-10-29 16:53:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh
1251 2013-10-29 16:53:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Correct*
1252 2013-10-29 16:53:58 <melvster> thx
1253 2013-10-29 16:54:29 <melvster> i guess there's more than one genesis block, e.g. the test nets
1254 2013-10-29 16:54:36 <melvster> but different chains
1255 2013-10-29 16:54:55 <melvster> otherwise 0000 would be the parent of all
1256 2013-10-29 16:55:26 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1257 2013-10-29 16:55:28 <melvster> what came before genesis lol, the big bang?
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1262 2013-10-29 16:57:01 <helo> a big mess :(
1263 2013-10-29 16:57:03 <lianj> the assumption that sha256(sha256(block_header) will hopefully never return 0x0*34
1264 2013-10-29 16:57:07 <lianj> *32
1265 2013-10-29 16:57:28 <melvster> or any other hash
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1267 2013-10-29 16:57:38 <melvster> then you'd get one big circle
1268 2013-10-29 16:57:46 <melvster> maybe even a longest chain ...
1269 2013-10-29 16:58:07 <sipa> blocks still have their height inside
1270 2013-10-29 16:58:12 disconnecteddd has left ()
1271 2013-10-29 16:58:16 <sipa> so a loop wouldn't be valid
1272 2013-10-29 16:58:20 <sipa> even if the hashes match
1273 2013-10-29 16:58:26 <sipa> though i think many other things would break
1274 2013-10-29 16:58:26 <melvster> only version 2 blocks right?
1275 2013-10-29 16:58:28 jakov has joined
1276 2013-10-29 16:58:29 <sipa> indeed
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1281 2013-10-29 16:59:04 <MC1984_> genesis block was handmade right
1282 2013-10-29 16:59:15 <melvster> yes
1283 2013-10-29 16:59:15 <MC1984_> not mined
1284 2013-10-29 16:59:22 <melvster> ummm
1285 2013-10-29 16:59:24 <melvster> mined too?
1286 2013-10-29 16:59:28 <lianj> ofc
1287 2013-10-29 16:59:33 <jakov> it was mined in the sense that a computer found the right nonce
1288 2013-10-29 16:59:49 <MC1984_> but there was no previous hash
1289 2013-10-29 16:59:54 asuk is now known as afk!~asuk@31.129.27.89|asuk
1290 2013-10-29 16:59:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|MC1984_: right
1291 2013-10-29 17:00:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's hard coded into the source code
1292 2013-10-29 17:00:09 <melvster> Computed hash OK
1293 2013-10-29 17:00:09 <melvster> 000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f
1294 2013-10-29 17:00:09 <melvster> Checking Target is Bigger than computed hash OK
1295 2013-10-29 17:00:09 <melvster> 0000001d00ff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
1296 2013-10-29 17:00:19 <melvster> you'll see the hash has a ton of 0's
1297 2013-10-29 17:00:24 <melvster> more than needed for the target
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1300 2013-10-29 17:00:51 <melvster> my guess is that satoshi started it on new year and left it running 3 days for jan 3 release
1301 2013-10-29 17:00:53 <sipa> the mainnet genesis is actually PoW-valid
1302 2013-10-29 17:01:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Note that the number of hashes doesn't actually matter
1303 2013-10-29 17:01:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Um, the number of zeroes
1304 2013-10-29 17:01:20 <melvster> like in 3 days is all souls day when the bitcoin paper will be 5 years old ... most mathematicians are strangely superstitious
1305 2013-10-29 17:01:51 <MC1984_> because numbers do some creepy things
1306 2013-10-29 17:02:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What matters is integer comparison: the block hash must <= the target
1307 2013-10-29 17:02:09 <melvster> but its very rare to see 4 zeros more than the target
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1309 2013-10-29 17:02:30 <sipa> melvster: in hex?
1310 2013-10-29 17:02:34 <melvster> yes
1311 2013-10-29 17:02:47 <sipa> every 65k blocks :)
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1315 2013-10-29 17:04:35 <TD> sipa: bitcoind always prints the hash of any tx it rejects, right
1316 2013-10-29 17:04:49 <melvster> i think satoshi wanted to give it a good mine for the first one ... of course the whole nbits to difficulty calculation could have been cusomizable you subtract 3 from the leading 2 hex digits it could have been hard coded to 5 at some point
1317 2013-10-29 17:05:31 <lianj> melvster: no, irrelevant
1318 2013-10-29 17:05:56 <melvster> i mean to calculate difficulty 1
1319 2013-10-29 17:06:24 <melvster> in any case the hash in the genesis block is abnormally hard
1320 2013-10-29 17:06:54 <lianj> irrelevant for the chain that followed and just luck
1321 2013-10-29 17:07:44 <petertodd> lianj: the timestamps between genesis and the next block vary by a week; chances are satoshi wanted to do last minute checks and just left his miner running
1322 2013-10-29 17:07:45 <skinnkavaj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320634.msg3434765;boardseen#new
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1325 2013-10-29 17:08:49 <petertodd> lianj: I did the math once and the difficulty was about what you'd expect if he had enough hashing power to mine at diff 1 and did exactly that
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1332 2013-10-29 17:13:26 <lianj> petertodd: ah :)
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1356 2013-10-29 17:41:18 <MobGod> anyone in here compile things on OSX ?
1357 2013-10-29 17:41:57 dgolds has joined
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1363 2013-10-29 17:48:00 <Happzz> sipa do you feel like helping me debug why does it take forever to load bitcoin-qt
1364 2013-10-29 17:48:21 <Happzz> considering my hardware, it should be quite fast
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1381 2013-10-29 18:04:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|MobGod: I believe Gavin does
1382 2013-10-29 18:05:22 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1383 2013-10-29 18:05:36 <MobGod> hard to get him
1384 2013-10-29 18:06:33 czaanja1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1385 2013-10-29 18:06:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|IIRC he's based in Australia, which may have something to do with that :-P
1386 2013-10-29 18:06:49 <MobGod> yes i know
1387 2013-10-29 18:07:12 debiantoruser has joined
1388 2013-10-29 18:07:25 <MobGod> wondering where i can post something like this to see if i can get any feed back on it
1389 2013-10-29 18:07:42 <MobGod> /
1390 2013-10-29 18:07:50 <MobGod> oops
1391 2013-10-29 18:08:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|MobGod: something like what?
1392 2013-10-29 18:08:47 <MobGod> the errors i'm getting
1393 2013-10-29 18:08:52 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1394 2013-10-29 18:08:59 <MobGod> trying to use qtcreator to compile a wallet
1395 2013-10-29 18:09:14 <MobGod> maybe i can try applehelp on reddit
1396 2013-10-29 18:09:19 <MobGod> not sure heh
1397 2013-10-29 18:09:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|MobGod: I believe there's a guide somewhere in the source tree
1398 2013-10-29 18:09:54 <MobGod> michagogo|cloud i understand that and i did follow the guide
1399 2013-10-29 18:10:02 <MobGod> but i'm getting errors
1400 2013-10-29 18:10:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Though maybe not for qtcreator? No idea)
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1404 2013-10-29 18:11:02 <helo> 'glossolalia' in #bitcoin with crash on 0.8.5 trying to send - Critical error occured. Bitcoin will shut down. EXCEPTION: St13 runtime_error TopUpKeyPool(): writing generator key failed
1405 2013-10-29 18:11:32 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1406 2013-10-29 18:11:36 <helo> not a crash, i suppose
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1419 2013-10-29 18:18:56 TD is now known as TD[away]
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1426 2013-10-29 18:28:15 <sipa> Happzz: at what stage does it take a long time?
1427 2013-10-29 18:28:27 <sipa> Happzz: run with -debug, and look at debug.log during loading
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1431 2013-10-29 18:30:53 <MobGod> sipa when you have a quick min could you look at this for me listen=1
1432 2013-10-29 18:30:53 <MobGod> server=1
1433 2013-10-29 18:30:53 <MobGod> rpcuser=mob
1434 2013-10-29 18:30:53 <MobGod> rpcpassword=blowm3
1435 2013-10-29 18:30:59 <MobGod> lol
1436 2013-10-29 18:31:03 <MobGod> wtf
1437 2013-10-29 18:31:17 <MobGod> meant this https://www.dropbox.com/s/lpwf3fxcg4ia48m/Screenshot%202013-10-29%2013.36.45.jpg
1438 2013-10-29 18:32:31 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
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1440 2013-10-29 18:33:24 <kjj> nice password.
1441 2013-10-29 18:33:45 <MobGod> thanks
1442 2013-10-29 18:33:46 <MobGod> lol
1443 2013-10-29 18:33:54 <sipa> 19:28:30 < MobGod> rpcpassword=******
1444 2013-10-29 18:34:11 <kjj> I hope that your real security is in some sort of packet filtering
1445 2013-10-29 18:34:23 debiantoruser has joined
1446 2013-10-29 18:34:32 <MobGod> that pass means nothing
1447 2013-10-29 18:34:44 <MobGod> i was showing someone a example
1448 2013-10-29 18:34:53 <MobGod> but thanks
1449 2013-10-29 18:35:14 <kjj> ahh, ok
1450 2013-10-29 18:35:52 shesek has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1451 2013-10-29 18:36:30 <MobGod> sipa should i wait for gavinandresen for this one ?
1452 2013-10-29 18:38:40 <sipa> MobGod: what is your problem?
1453 2013-10-29 18:39:15 Evilmax has joined
1454 2013-10-29 18:39:44 <MobGod> sipa https://www.dropbox.com/s/lpwf3fxcg4ia48m/Screenshot%202013-10-29%2013.36.45.jpg
1455 2013-10-29 18:39:52 <Evilmax> hi all
1456 2013-10-29 18:40:01 <Evilmax> who can help me about bitcoind daemon on ubuntu?
1457 2013-10-29 18:40:03 <sipa> MobGod: i've never in my life used qt-creator
1458 2013-10-29 18:40:12 <sipa> Evilmax: just ask
1459 2013-10-29 18:40:20 <Evilmax> ok
1460 2013-10-29 18:40:42 <Evilmax> it seems al work but if i send coins to one of the addresses of my daemon
1461 2013-10-29 18:40:49 <Evilmax> the transaction exists
1462 2013-10-29 18:40:54 <Evilmax> but i can't find coins!
1463 2013-10-29 18:41:01 <Evilmax> balance is alway 0.00000
1464 2013-10-29 18:41:19 <sipa> define 'the transaction exists' ?
1465 2013-10-29 18:41:23 <sipa> are you fully synced?
1466 2013-10-29 18:41:28 <Evilmax> the daemon is runnning on ubuntu system
1467 2013-10-29 18:41:34 <Evilmax> i mean...that if i check
1468 2013-10-29 18:41:36 <Evilmax> on blockchain
1469 2013-10-29 18:41:38 <sipa> has it synchronized with the network?
1470 2013-10-29 18:41:39 <Evilmax> it results
1471 2013-10-29 18:41:42 <Evilmax> yes
1472 2013-10-29 18:41:50 <Evilmax> it is surely synchronized
1473 2013-10-29 18:41:52 <sipa> how many blocks does getinfo report?
1474 2013-10-29 18:41:56 <Evilmax> they are 5 days
1475 2013-10-29 18:42:03 <Evilmax> wait...i will check
1476 2013-10-29 18:42:26 <Evilmax> just a moment
1477 2013-10-29 18:42:29 <Evilmax> it is slow
1478 2013-10-29 18:42:37 dgolds has joined
1479 2013-10-29 18:42:43 <Evilmax> maybe it is not synchronized? in 5 days?
1480 2013-10-29 18:42:48 <Evilmax> let's check:)
1481 2013-10-29 18:43:00 <sipa> if it is slow, it is probably synchronizing :)
1482 2013-10-29 18:43:12 <Evilmax> mmm yes
1483 2013-10-29 18:43:36 <Evilmax> wait just a moment...i did "bitcoind getinfo"
1484 2013-10-29 18:43:38 <sipa> MobGod: what version code is that?
1485 2013-10-29 18:43:51 <Evilmax> sorry my english
1486 2013-10-29 18:44:06 <Evilmax> i have done a webwallet
1487 2013-10-29 18:44:16 <Evilmax> "blocks" : 219300,
1488 2013-10-29 18:44:18 <sipa> ;;blocks
1489 2013-10-29 18:44:20 <gribble> 266738
1490 2013-10-29 18:44:28 <sipa> you're far from being synchronized :)
1491 2013-10-29 18:44:35 <Evilmax> ah ok!
1492 2013-10-29 18:44:35 <MobGod> sipa not for BTC
1493 2013-10-29 18:44:36 <Evilmax> mate!
1494 2013-10-29 18:44:45 <Evilmax> so it is not synchronized?
1495 2013-10-29 18:44:48 <sipa> Evilmax: no
1496 2013-10-29 18:44:51 <Evilmax> ok
1497 2013-10-29 18:44:54 <Evilmax> tnx mate
1498 2013-10-29 18:44:57 <sipa> MobGod: so what code version is it based on?
1499 2013-10-29 18:45:05 <MobGod> looking now
1500 2013-10-29 18:45:07 <sipa> MobGod: (this is not #altcoin-dev, though...)
1501 2013-10-29 18:45:17 <Evilmax> hey Sidnicious
1502 2013-10-29 18:45:19 <Evilmax> ops
1503 2013-10-29 18:45:21 <Evilmax> sipa
1504 2013-10-29 18:45:23 <MobGod> sipa i know that :)
1505 2013-10-29 18:45:26 <Evilmax> i did a webwallet!
1506 2013-10-29 18:45:36 <Evilmax> i am not a scripters
1507 2013-10-29 18:45:36 <MobGod> didn't even know there was another channel i try in there
1508 2013-10-29 18:45:39 <Evilmax> but i did it
1509 2013-10-29 18:45:47 <sipa> MobGod: i doubt that exists :D
1510 2013-10-29 18:45:55 Sorcier_FXK has joined
1511 2013-10-29 18:45:56 <MobGod> lmao
1512 2013-10-29 18:45:57 <MobGod> ok
1513 2013-10-29 18:46:03 <Sorcier_FXK> hi all
1514 2013-10-29 18:46:11 <sipa> MobGod: i mean, many altcoin just copy some ancient codebase and tweak a few things; we can't help people who get into trouble with that
1515 2013-10-29 18:46:44 <Evilmax> sipa..another thing that i do not understand is: what is the real bitcoin.config of the daemon in ubuntu? because there are many configs
1516 2013-10-29 18:47:20 <Evilmax> /root/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf or /home/"username"/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf ?
1517 2013-10-29 18:47:25 <Sorcier_FXK> blocks are limited to 1MB, but, if a block reach this limit but the proof of work is not found, what happening ?
1518 2013-10-29 18:47:28 dgolds has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1519 2013-10-29 18:47:36 <MobGod> sipa i understand that but i'm sure the compile part would be the same for any coin using OSX
1520 2013-10-29 18:48:43 <sipa> MobGod: this looks like 0.6 or 0.7 based cod
1521 2013-10-29 18:49:04 <sipa> Sorcier_FXK: irrelevant
1522 2013-10-29 18:49:11 <sipa> Sorcier_FXK: miners choose what they put in a block
1523 2013-10-29 18:49:19 <Sorcier_FXK> ah ok
1524 2013-10-29 18:49:32 <Sorcier_FXK> so this thing is impossible
1525 2013-10-29 18:49:33 <MobGod> sipa ok so what do you suggest
1526 2013-10-29 18:49:44 <sipa> MobGod: complain to whowever made that
1527 2013-10-29 18:50:01 <MobGod> haha that didn't help but i know where your coming from
1528 2013-10-29 18:50:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Evilmax: it's ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf, unless you've changed that
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1531 2013-10-29 18:50:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you run bitcoind as root, it'll use /root
1532 2013-10-29 18:50:42 <MobGod> sipa by the looks of it the OSX code was left out correct? or am i looking at this wrong
1533 2013-10-29 18:50:42 <Evilmax> say ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf in /root or in /home?
1534 2013-10-29 18:50:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you run it as another user, it'll use /home/user
1535 2013-10-29 18:50:53 <sipa> MobGod: i don't know and i don't care
1536 2013-10-29 18:50:54 <Evilmax> ah...you mena in "/"
1537 2013-10-29 18:51:05 shesek has joined
1538 2013-10-29 18:51:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Evilmax: no, not /.bitcoin
1539 2013-10-29 18:51:11 <MobGod> roger
1540 2013-10-29 18:51:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|.bitcoin will be in ~
1541 2013-10-29 18:51:33 <null> Evilmax: $HOME for root is usually /root/
1542 2013-10-29 18:51:34 <Evilmax> ah ok ok
1543 2013-10-29 18:51:36 <Evilmax> i understand
1544 2013-10-29 18:51:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For the root user, ~ is /home
1545 2013-10-29 18:51:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For other users, /home/username
1546 2013-10-29 18:52:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Defaults, that is)
1547 2013-10-29 18:52:03 <null> michagogo|cloud: /home? /root
1548 2013-10-29 18:52:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, that
1549 2013-10-29 18:52:19 <Evilmax> yes...that i mean: i have to use /root/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf or /home/"username"/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf ? There are 3 config...one for root home and other two in the home of 2 users
1550 2013-10-29 18:52:23 <Sorcier_FXK> sipa, thx :)
1551 2013-10-29 18:52:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|null: thanks for catching that
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1553 2013-10-29 18:52:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Evilmax: that depends
1554 2013-10-29 18:52:39 <Evilmax> ok
1555 2013-10-29 18:52:40 <BlueMatt> can someone see if they can connect to testnet node 152.23.201.112
1556 2013-10-29 18:52:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Which user are you running bitcoind as?
1557 2013-10-29 18:52:53 <Evilmax> root
1558 2013-10-29 18:52:54 shesek has joined
1559 2013-10-29 18:52:59 <Evilmax> always root
1560 2013-10-29 18:53:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why?
1561 2013-10-29 18:53:11 <null> Evilmax: i haven't followed the discussion, but running bitcoind as root is probably not a good idea. if in doubt, just use "~/.bitcoin" instead of an absolute path
1562 2013-10-29 18:53:13 <Evilmax> because i am working on scripts
1563 2013-10-29 18:53:18 <Evilmax> so i need to be root
1564 2013-10-29 18:53:43 <Evilmax> i run everything as root:)
1565 2013-10-29 18:53:45 <Evilmax> ehehe
1566 2013-10-29 18:53:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...
1567 2013-10-29 18:53:51 <sipa> MobGod: and they're using floating point numbers inside the consensus code; fail
1568 2013-10-29 18:53:56 <Evilmax> there are no coins...
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1570 2013-10-29 18:54:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why would you run everything as root
1571 2013-10-29 18:54:21 ThomasV has joined
1572 2013-10-29 18:54:21 <Evilmax> michagogo|cloud just for testing now
1573 2013-10-29 18:54:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The :) suggests you know it's a horrible idea...
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1575 2013-10-29 18:54:32 <Evilmax> in the future i will consider the security issue too
1576 2013-10-29 18:54:34 shesek has joined
1577 2013-10-29 18:54:41 <MobGod> sipa so thats a bad thing i take it
1578 2013-10-29 18:54:58 <Evilmax> anyway tnx boys
1579 2013-10-29 18:55:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Evilmax: you should consider the security issue from the very beginning
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1581 2013-10-29 18:55:04 <Evilmax> you are very usefull
1582 2013-10-29 18:55:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Especially if it's a box connected to the itemwt
1583 2013-10-29 18:55:19 <Evilmax> i love btc and btc community
1584 2013-10-29 18:55:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Internet*
1585 2013-10-29 18:55:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But if you are for some reason running as root, the default datadir will be /root/.bitcoin
1586 2013-10-29 18:55:54 <Evilmax> i will download a source code of a webwallet
1587 2013-10-29 18:55:54 <sipa> MobGod: it means different computers may disagree about the result, as floating point operations have undefined rounding
1588 2013-10-29 18:55:56 <Evilmax> shit!
1589 2013-10-29 18:56:01 <Evilmax> i will make it ex novo
1590 2013-10-29 18:56:13 <sipa> MobGod: and within the consensus mechanism, every node on the network has to get to the exact same result
1591 2013-10-29 18:56:13 <Evilmax> sorry "i downloaded..."
1592 2013-10-29 18:57:01 <MobGod> so could be tons of forks if i understand correctly
1593 2013-10-29 18:57:19 <sipa> probably only when people start running it on different hardware, like arm
1594 2013-10-29 18:57:52 <Evilmax> i will disable tor proxy...maybe bitcoinnd will be more fast?
1595 2013-10-29 18:57:53 adam3us has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1596 2013-10-29 18:57:56 <Evilmax> what do you think?
1597 2013-10-29 18:58:02 <MobGod> sipa ok thanks
1598 2013-10-29 18:58:05 <Evilmax> i have ti able irc?
1599 2013-10-29 18:58:11 adam3us has joined
1600 2013-10-29 18:58:41 <MobGod> i still need to see what the heck is going on with the errors i'm getting google didn't help me out maybe gal can when he's around
1601 2013-10-29 19:00:43 <null> sipa: i've heard that before... what makes you say arm will produce different results than x86?
1602 2013-10-29 19:00:49 tcatm has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1603 2013-10-29 19:01:01 <null> floats are defined as ieee 754 compliant in the c language standard, right?
1604 2013-10-29 19:02:11 <null> but i guess you're right. better play it safe. things like -O3 loosen the fp strictness
1605 2013-10-29 19:02:16 <adam3us> i finally broke down and wrote a bitcoin.it/wiki/hashcash if anyone wants to critique what is written there (or fix it) - it was starting to annoy me that the word hashcash was not mentioned on the site and each time proof of work as mentioned it was explained how to do hashcash inline in the text! rather than referencing a page
1606 2013-10-29 19:05:27 <Evilmax> ;;blocks
1607 2013-10-29 19:05:29 <gribble> 266740
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1610 2013-10-29 19:08:33 <Happzz> sipa i'm sorry my connection is pretty much dying on me
1611 2013-10-29 19:08:35 <Happzz> i noticed you the debug.log
1612 2013-10-29 19:09:56 <sipa> adam3us: thanks :)
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1615 2013-10-29 19:13:40 <Happzz> sipa did you get it?
1616 2013-10-29 19:14:06 <adam3us> sipa: I think most people think "yeah iterate a hash of ( string, counter) < diff" that sounds stupidly simple, i get that. But there are dozens security tradeoffs even leading from that and several minor mistakes or inefficiencies/insecurities in the way mining pools handle work to this day, and minor screw ups around it (not quite following the paper) is how satoshi linked most of his early coins together)
1617 2013-10-29 19:15:33 <sipa> Happzz: no
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1645 2013-10-29 19:47:44 andrew12_ is now known as andrew12
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1655 2013-10-29 19:55:03 <Happzz> sipa i noticed it to you again
1656 2013-10-29 19:56:25 <sipa> Happzz: what CPU/disk?
1657 2013-10-29 19:56:37 <sipa> it took 5 minutes to do your rollback check
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1664 2013-10-29 20:09:13 <warren> anyone have a working gitian setup?
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1679 2013-10-29 20:36:08 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #433: ABORTED in 8 hr 30 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/433/
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1683 2013-10-29 20:41:56 <adam3us> so one criticism of scrypt(iter=1) as a hash is its much more expensive to verify than sha256^2 and so that makes validation more cpu and memory expensive and affects litecoin scalability
1684 2013-10-29 20:43:10 <BlueMatt> or the fact that like 99% of the work in verifying blocks is split between io (if you have slow disk) or ecdsa verification (if you have a tmpfs) means that it doesnt really matter
1685 2013-10-29 20:43:30 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1689 2013-10-29 20:44:18 dgolds has joined
1690 2013-10-29 20:44:26 <adam3us> i wonder if instead of scrypt(iter=1,mem=128kB) you could use 128 instances of scrypt(iter=1,mem=1kB) and a the fiat-shamir transfer using a merkle pow like fabian coelho does ith a cost of say 4xlog2(128) scrypt(iter=1,mem=1kB) on the verification side
1691 2013-10-29 20:45:05 <adam3us> coelho in http://hashcash.org/papers/merkle-proof.pdf Nov 2007 - "An (Almost) Constant-Effort Solution-Verification Proof-of-Work Protocol based on Merkle Trees" AfriCrypt 2008, Fabien Coelho
1692 2013-10-29 20:45:52 dgolds_ has joined
1693 2013-10-29 20:47:15 <adam3us> bluematt: i guess that depends on the relative cost of ecdsa verify vs hashcash-scrypt(iter=1,mem=128kB) i am not sure of the raw figures
1694 2013-10-29 20:47:53 <BlueMatt> I dont have them in front of me, but if the scrypt hash takes as long as a block's worth of ecdsa verification (or even within 2 orders of magnitude), Id be incredibly surprised
1695 2013-10-29 20:48:16 Applicat_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1696 2013-10-29 20:48:46 <adam3us> bluematt: i recall i think mikehearn was negative about scrypt for this reason, but u have a very good point that there are many sigs inside a single hash
1697 2013-10-29 20:49:13 dgolds has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1698 2013-10-29 20:50:05 <adam3us> bluematt: seems like ecdsa verify is going to be the cpu bottleneck almost for certain, i ought to revise that in the wiki (likely false claim scryp is not scalable because of this)
1699 2013-10-29 20:50:14 dgolds_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1700 2013-10-29 20:51:02 <BlueMatt> hmm, well Id think either a) Im very, very wrong or b) mike was talking about someone suggesting some massive scrypt parameters that took forever or so
1701 2013-10-29 20:51:05 <sipa> on a recent i7, an signature verification costs around 400-500us (in openssl, 64-bit)
1702 2013-10-29 20:51:11 <sipa> -n
1703 2013-10-29 20:51:33 <adam3us> sipa: and i guess even better with djb curves
1704 2013-10-29 20:52:12 random_cat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1705 2013-10-29 20:52:24 <melvster> ;;lastblock
1706 2013-10-29 20:52:25 <sipa> well, my libsecp256k1 does it in 90us
1707 2013-10-29 20:52:26 <gribble> Error: "lastblock" is not a valid command.
1708 2013-10-29 20:52:37 <null> how so?
1709 2013-10-29 20:52:59 <adam3us> sipa: and thats using the same curve as bitcoin main... when is that going to be merged in?
1710 2013-10-29 20:53:08 <melvster> is it really 2 hours since last block? 266740 http://blockchain.info/
1711 2013-10-29 20:53:18 <BlueMatt> based on hashrate for a 4770 from some wiki, it takes 10us to do a scrypt hash for litecoin
1712 2013-10-29 20:53:20 <BlueMatt> so....yea
1713 2013-10-29 20:53:31 <BlueMatt> (i7-4770, that is)
1714 2013-10-29 20:53:33 <sipa> ;;blocks
1715 2013-10-29 20:53:35 <gribble> 266740
1716 2013-10-29 20:53:49 <adam3us> wowsers even one ecdsa dominates never mind a block full of them... whats the average tx per block?
1717 2013-10-29 20:53:53 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
1718 2013-10-29 20:53:54 <sipa> adam3us: do you volunteer for reviewing the codee? :)
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1720 2013-10-29 20:54:12 <null> how come your implementation is so much faster sipa?
1721 2013-10-29 20:54:16 <adam3us> sipa: if u like, i guess it was fuzz tested lready
1722 2013-10-29 20:54:28 <sipa> null: it's specifically written for that curve
1723 2013-10-29 20:54:35 <adam3us> null: he optmized the crap out of it special case :)
1724 2013-10-29 20:54:51 <adam3us> sipa: nice job btw
1725 2013-10-29 20:54:56 <null> yeah, nice job
1726 2013-10-29 20:55:14 <adam3us> sipa: in theory though djb 256 curves are supposed to be even faster i guess
1727 2013-10-29 20:55:37 <null> did you do any optimizations for the group operation as well?
1728 2013-10-29 20:56:03 <null> i've read a very nice paper by intel on modular multiplication recently. could be of value...
1729 2013-10-29 20:56:05 AusBitBank has joined
1730 2013-10-29 20:56:06 <sipa> null: for field operations, scalar operations and group operations, and some tricks in the EC multiply to
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1732 2013-10-29 20:57:04 <sipa> adam3us: yes, i didn't benchmark curve25519 on the same system (i couldn't figure out how to run that supercop beast), but based on the cycles/verify on his site, i would expect it to be faster still
1733 2013-10-29 20:57:07 <null> http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-31662-3_9#page-1
1734 2013-10-29 20:57:08 <adam3us> sipa: and djb is an assembly coding, fixed execution time, zero branch, speed demon as well as a top cryptographer (dunno how he does it all!) - i reckon you could replace all of NIST with djb and the world woudl be better
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1737 2013-10-29 20:57:09 <sipa> adam3us: but not much; maybe 1.5x
1738 2013-10-29 20:57:28 <null> adam3us: i agree. he's crazy
1739 2013-10-29 20:57:44 <null> in a good way, of course
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1741 2013-10-29 20:58:19 <arij> where can i get a copy of bitcoind that doesnt take days to download the blockchain?
1742 2013-10-29 20:58:27 <adam3us> sipa: my heros: falkvinge, stallman, djb, satoshi :)
1743 2013-10-29 20:58:27 <arij> bluematt or something?
1744 2013-10-29 20:58:42 <arij> or am i thinking of something else?
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1746 2013-10-29 20:59:30 <adam3us> sipa: constant time irrelevant for verify, but could be interesting at the high asurance hot wallet end for signing; but 1.5x is not worth a curve change
1747 2013-10-29 20:59:47 <sipa> adam3us: libsecp256k1 also has assembly optimized code (written by a friend of mine)
1748 2013-10-29 21:00:13 <sipa> adam3us: the verify is absolutely not constant time; the signing code is "sorta tried to be constant time, but no guarantees"
1749 2013-10-29 21:00:15 patcon_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1750 2013-10-29 21:00:39 <adam3us> sipa: if he gets bored he could run the gnu super optimizer on micro bits of it that can do crazy stuff that no human could think of
1751 2013-10-29 21:00:41 patcon has joined
1752 2013-10-29 21:00:52 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/tree/master/src
1753 2013-10-29 21:00:55 <adam3us> sipa: mining x86 asm permutations for short cycles ;)
1754 2013-10-29 21:01:16 <sipa> heh
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1758 2013-10-29 21:03:34 <melvster> ;;blocks
1759 2013-10-29 21:03:36 <gribble> 266752
1760 2013-10-29 21:03:40 kenblazer_______ has joined
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1763 2013-10-29 21:04:52 <sipa> adam3us: it's been a while since i wrote it, and i'm not really happy about the number of unit tests
1764 2013-10-29 21:05:04 <sipa> but there is one that creating signatures using openssl, and verifies them with secp, and then flips a random bit, and checks that it doesn't verify anymore
1765 2013-10-29 21:05:10 <sipa> iirc
1766 2013-10-29 21:06:02 kinlo_ has joined
1767 2013-10-29 21:06:56 <adam3us> were u able to use the repeated use of curve mult by specific fixed G in the verification relation?
1768 2013-10-29 21:07:36 <adam3us> to do some kind of precomputed addition window larger than for when you do it for a random point like Q
1769 2013-10-29 21:07:50 <sipa> yep
1770 2013-10-29 21:08:02 random_cat_ has joined
1771 2013-10-29 21:08:11 <sipa> there's a large table of multiples of G and of G^128
1772 2013-10-29 21:08:19 atian_ has joined
1773 2013-10-29 21:08:20 <sipa> e
1774 2013-10-29 21:08:23 <sipa> G*2^ 128
1775 2013-10-29 21:08:32 <arij> anyone?
1776 2013-10-29 21:08:37 asuk has quit (afk!~asuk@31.129.27.89|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1777 2013-10-29 21:08:43 Eiii has joined
1778 2013-10-29 21:09:01 <sipa> arij: pass -dbcache=1000 -addnode=<some good peer> on the command line
1779 2013-10-29 21:09:02 <adam3us> sipa: there is also some kind of batched exponentiate so that its cheaper to do g^x*h^y by shamir i think - wonder if that transfers to xG+yQ
1780 2013-10-29 21:09:04 <sipa> it will speed up syncing very much
1781 2013-10-29 21:09:11 <sipa> adam3us: yes
1782 2013-10-29 21:09:23 <sipa> i use that
1783 2013-10-29 21:09:38 shesek has joined
1784 2013-10-29 21:10:05 <adam3us> sipa: no wonder you're getting 90us .. seems like you pulled all known algo tricks :)
1785 2013-10-29 21:10:05 Perlboy has quit (Excess Flood)
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1789 2013-10-29 21:10:28 <sipa> through the GLV method (which hal found out about), you can split a*X into a1*X+a2*X', where X' is efficiently computable, and a1 and a2 are half the length of a
1790 2013-10-29 21:10:41 <sipa> so when i want to compute a*X+b*G for validation
1791 2013-10-29 21:11:01 <sipa> it is actually split into a1*X+a2*X'+b1*G+b2*G*2^128
1792 2013-10-29 21:11:11 <sipa> where a1, a2, b1 and b2 are only 128 bit
1793 2013-10-29 21:11:26 kinlo_ is now known as kinlo
1794 2013-10-29 21:11:31 <sipa> and X, X', G and G^128 are easy to compute/precomputed
1795 2013-10-29 21:11:34 Keefe has joined
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1797 2013-10-29 21:11:43 <sipa> eh, G*2^128
1798 2013-10-29 21:11:47 <null> seems to be related to the montgomery multiplication used in the intel paper
1799 2013-10-29 21:11:53 <sipa> not really
1800 2013-10-29 21:12:07 <null> oh ok. looked similar at first glance
1801 2013-10-29 21:12:10 <sipa> montgomery multiplication is for field operations
1802 2013-10-29 21:12:24 <sipa> oh, or you mean montgomery ladders for exponentiation?
1803 2013-10-29 21:12:33 <sipa> the guy did quite a lot in that field :p
1804 2013-10-29 21:12:47 <adam3us> sipa: i see.
1805 2013-10-29 21:13:13 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1806 2013-10-29 21:13:16 <sipa> adam3us: note that i didn't actually research any of this further than reading wikipedia
1807 2013-10-29 21:13:29 <sipa> all the rest is just tricks that others told me about
1808 2013-10-29 21:13:38 <sipa> i certainly missed things :)
1809 2013-10-29 21:13:40 <adam3us> sipa: btw I met montgomery a few times while at microsoft, he works for their r&d, i even have a bullshit patent written him and another guy abotu DSA optimization
1810 2013-10-29 21:13:49 sustrik has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1811 2013-10-29 21:14:06 <adam3us> sipa: (grr, hate bullshit patents, and i quite before even getting the $1k patent reward even)
1812 2013-10-29 21:14:32 <sipa> ha, cool
1813 2013-10-29 21:14:32 <adam3us> sipa: the other thing is , you have to step one recover the public key Q, doenst that create quite a bit of extra work?
1814 2013-10-29 21:14:35 <sipa> (meeting him)
1815 2013-10-29 21:14:52 <sipa> yes, but not much
1816 2013-10-29 21:14:55 <sipa> 10-20us iirc
1817 2013-10-29 21:15:06 <sipa> decompress, you mean?
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1819 2013-10-29 21:15:21 <adam3us> sipa: no i mean compute/recover
1820 2013-10-29 21:15:25 <sipa> how so?
1821 2013-10-29 21:15:29 <adam3us> sipa: as Q is not sent right?
1822 2013-10-29 21:15:31 <sipa> it is
1823 2013-10-29 21:15:46 <adam3us> sipa: i thought Q was recovered from r,s
1824 2013-10-29 21:15:59 <sipa> no, only in message signing we use that trick (i implemented it)
1825 2013-10-29 21:16:11 <sipa> the script language wasn't designed with that in mind
1826 2013-10-29 21:16:31 <sipa> txouts contains hash(pubkey)
1827 2013-10-29 21:16:37 <sipa> txins contain pubkey,signature
1828 2013-10-29 21:17:00 <adam3us> sipa: couldnt a recover opcode be added and omit pub key?
1829 2013-10-29 21:17:17 <sipa> however, recovery is actually pretty fast too
1830 2013-10-29 21:17:17 <sipa> i think it's similar to decompression
1831 2013-10-29 21:17:19 <adam3us> sipa: to 2/3 the sig part
1832 2013-10-29 21:17:24 <sipa> adam3us: adding an opcode is a hard fork
1833 2013-10-29 21:17:38 ahf has joined
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1835 2013-10-29 21:17:57 <sipa> it would save us 33 bytes
1836 2013-10-29 21:17:57 <sipa> per spend
1837 2013-10-29 21:18:29 <adam3us> sipa: right, 2/3 of sig payload size
1838 2013-10-29 21:18:45 <sipa> hardly
1839 2013-10-29 21:18:48 <adam3us> sipa: Q.x,r,s; vs r,s
1840 2013-10-29 21:19:01 <sipa> ah, right
1841 2013-10-29 21:19:06 Gabralkhan has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1842 2013-10-29 21:19:09 <sipa> except the signature is encoded uses DER
1843 2013-10-29 21:19:17 <sipa> which means it actually takes 71 bytes instead of 64
1844 2013-10-29 21:19:37 <sipa> plus some pushes and metadata (hashtype) in the script languae
1845 2013-10-29 21:20:14 <adam3us> sipa: jeeze. someone rip the asn.1 out already ) it even threatens to break dependent txes due to additional signature malleability beyond r,-s problem
1846 2013-10-29 21:20:27 <sipa> adam3us: i am painfully aware
1847 2013-10-29 21:20:38 agricocb has joined
1848 2013-10-29 21:20:42 <sipa> but that's even worse than a hardfork, as it would require all wallet software to upgrade
1849 2013-10-29 21:20:47 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #434: STILL FAILING in 39 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/434/
1850 2013-10-29 21:21:14 agricocb has quit (Client Quit)
1851 2013-10-29 21:21:32 <adam3us> sipa: oh that reminds me i was telling greg another way to perhaps fix sig malleability is to put Q.x in the txid hash instead of Qx,r,s
1852 2013-10-29 21:21:45 <sipa> ... hard fork
1853 2013-10-29 21:21:49 <adam3us> sipa: its more generic fix
1854 2013-10-29 21:22:20 <sipa> there are tons of improvements that can be made, including fixing malleability entirely, if we do a script-related hard fork
1855 2013-10-29 21:22:25 <sipa> but it will be very hard to pull off
1856 2013-10-29 21:22:29 <adam3us> sipa: yeah i know... i think its time for bitcoin-staging idea, so progress on fork requiring things can be made in parallel without risking the farm
1857 2013-10-29 21:22:33 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1858 2013-10-29 21:22:44 <sipa> and malleability can actually be fixed without hard fork
1859 2013-10-29 21:25:01 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1860 2013-10-29 21:25:10 <adam3us> sipa: just prevent dont generate -s and fix asn.1 malleability i guess
1861 2013-10-29 21:25:31 <adam3us> sipa: btw bitcoin-staging if you didnt skim it before http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=31519067
1862 2013-10-29 21:25:54 <sipa> adam3us: done
1863 2013-10-29 21:25:54 <sipa> but that's not enough
1864 2013-10-29 21:26:01 rdymac has joined
1865 2013-10-29 21:26:13 <sipa> adam3us: i saw it yes
1866 2013-10-29 21:26:14 <adam3us> sipa: what else?
1867 2013-10-29 21:26:27 Gabralkhan has joined
1868 2013-10-29 21:26:39 <sipa> adam3us: extra pushing inside script
1869 2013-10-29 21:26:47 <sipa> and iirc there was another one too
1870 2013-10-29 21:27:08 <sipa> adam3us: i saw the staging idea, but i'm not sure i like it being done incrementally from bitcoin
1871 2013-10-29 21:27:10 <adam3us> sipa: script ambiguity? multiple script with same meaining cause problem too?
1872 2013-10-29 21:27:22 <sipa> adam3us: you can just push unused data elements
1873 2013-10-29 21:27:45 <adam3us> sipa: i see, on the forth stack
1874 2013-10-29 21:27:49 <sipa> yes
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1878 2013-10-29 21:29:27 <adam3us> sipa: the idea is like centos/rhel vs fedora or whatever so you can be conservative on main and try new things with smallish risk on beta ... not sure what you mean incrementally - my thought is its better if its live otherwise its another testnet
1879 2013-10-29 21:30:09 <adam3us> sipa: a way to deploy a planned hard fork collection
1880 2013-10-29 21:30:12 debiantoruser has joined
1881 2013-10-29 21:31:38 <sipa> i guess you'd first need to define the scope
1882 2013-10-29 21:31:45 <sipa> as in, how much is allowed to be changed
1883 2013-10-29 21:32:01 <sipa> there are some pretty cool ideas that unfortunately require very invasive changes to the ecosystem
1884 2013-10-29 21:32:16 <sipa> going from new address type, to how synchronizing/verification work
1885 2013-10-29 21:32:44 saulimus has joined
1886 2013-10-29 21:32:49 <sipa> gmaxwell has a list of nice ideas about hard fork changes
1887 2013-10-29 21:33:37 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
1888 2013-10-29 21:33:54 <sipa> what i'm getting at is there are some ideas that may warrant starting over, rather than hardforking
1889 2013-10-29 21:34:03 <adam3us> sipa: yes i think i looked through it on the wiki once; an issue it seems to me is that people are rightly scared of any hard forks, so the changes like that get deferred and yet some of them eventually may have necessary scalability fixes
1890 2013-10-29 21:34:22 <sipa> i am terribly afraid of hardforks, yes
1891 2013-10-29 21:34:46 <sipa> not because they are necessarily so dangerous, but because if they work, it means developers have way too much power :)
1892 2013-10-29 21:34:50 <adam3us> sipa: ic... the other concept in the staging is to preserve the 21mil limit and move the coins over after the hard fork
1893 2013-10-29 21:36:08 <adam3us> sipa: in that propsal were you can move them voluntarily into staging, but a redo might do that also, or do it at the end, just moving coins incrementally provides security insulation for conservative long term btc investors
1894 2013-10-29 21:36:33 askmike has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1896 2013-10-29 21:36:49 <adam3us> any threat to the 21 mil limit in a redo would rock the boat i think
1897 2013-10-29 21:37:04 <abrkn> how many addresses does bitcoind handle? i have a pool of around 10k, a few thousand of them have coins
1898 2013-10-29 21:37:08 askmike has joined
1899 2013-10-29 21:37:18 <sipa> abrkn: up to 100k is fine, i hear
1900 2013-10-29 21:37:40 <abrkn> sipa: how would i know when im reaching the upper limits of the design?
1901 2013-10-29 21:37:53 <sipa> there is no upper limit
1902 2013-10-29 21:37:55 <sipa> it just gets slow
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1904 2013-10-29 21:38:20 <abrkn> sipa: bitcoind makes a new change address for each sendtoaddress?
1905 2013-10-29 21:38:32 <sipa> yes
1906 2013-10-29 21:38:46 <sipa> technically, it uses a change address for each
1907 2013-10-29 21:38:54 testicon has joined
1908 2013-10-29 21:38:54 <sipa> how they're made is separate
1909 2013-10-29 21:39:30 <abrkn> ok, im safe for a few more months then :)
1910 2013-10-29 21:39:43 <melvster> interesting the bitcoin ATM uses XBT as the currency code ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFqBtvLVRpY&feature=youtu.be
1911 2013-10-29 21:39:44 <sipa> you used -keypool=10000 ?
1912 2013-10-29 21:39:51 <abrkn> sipa: yes
1913 2013-10-29 21:39:55 <sipa> ok, yes indeed
1914 2013-10-29 21:39:57 <abrkn> sipa: took a while to start up
1915 2013-10-29 21:40:08 <sipa> known problem, being worked on
1916 2013-10-29 21:40:18 <abrkn> sipa: not very slow at all, just slower than normal
1917 2013-10-29 21:40:18 <sipa> phantomcircuit has some patches for that
1918 2013-10-29 21:40:30 <sipa> with 100k you'll notice it :)
1919 2013-10-29 21:40:49 <phantomcircuit> sipa, patch was pulled and is in master
1920 2013-10-29 21:41:00 <sipa> the hash stuff not yet, right?
1921 2013-10-29 21:41:00 <abrkn> i feel a lot safer using bitcoind for our exchange than custom things
1922 2013-10-29 21:41:02 <null> melvster: these things look dangerous
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1924 2013-10-29 21:41:12 <phantomcircuit> sipa, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2950
1925 2013-10-29 21:41:20 <null> just put a camera somewhere and record all the QR codes :/
1926 2013-10-29 21:41:36 <sipa> oh
1927 2013-10-29 21:41:41 <sipa> i msised that completely
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1929 2013-10-29 21:42:00 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i would have also but i went to ask when it was going to be pulled
1930 2013-10-29 21:42:01 <abrkn> whats the -dev view on this whole "XBT" motion?
1931 2013-10-29 21:42:03 <phantomcircuit> and it already had been
1932 2013-10-29 21:42:04 <phantomcircuit> heh
1933 2013-10-29 21:42:12 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen ninja
1934 2013-10-29 21:42:12 <sipa> abrkn: i don't give a shit
1935 2013-10-29 21:42:20 <melvster> null: no opinion on that, but I think it's cool .. paul volcker, former chairman of the fed, said that the only financial innovation to serve the people in the last 30 years was the ATM network...
1936 2013-10-29 21:42:32 <abrkn> sipa: sounds like something xe.com wants to show. whats it to us...
1937 2013-10-29 21:42:41 jegz has joined
1938 2013-10-29 21:42:58 <null> melvster: of course it's cool. but i just realized it's a disaster waiting to happen. with all the skimming going on it's just a matter of time
1939 2013-10-29 21:43:02 <jegz> Some questions about the API call sendmany: what is minconf for here?
1940 2013-10-29 21:43:07 <null> they should have stickers over the qr codes
1941 2013-10-29 21:43:11 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 275 seconds)
1942 2013-10-29 21:43:12 <sipa> ?
1943 2013-10-29 21:43:12 <sipa> what is xe.com
1944 2013-10-29 21:43:19 <phantomcircuit> sipa, of course i wouldn't advise anybody with money at stake to run master :)
1945 2013-10-29 21:43:26 <abrkn> sipa: i use it to check fiat conversion rates
1946 2013-10-29 21:43:30 <sipa> ok
1947 2013-10-29 21:43:31 <abrkn> sipa: historical going way back
1948 2013-10-29 21:43:38 <phantomcircuit> but it wouldn't be insane to cherrypick that one patch into 0.8.x
1949 2013-10-29 21:43:38 <sipa> how is it relevant?
1950 2013-10-29 21:43:46 <melvster> null: ikr, he almost flashed his private key in the video!
1951 2013-10-29 21:43:51 <abrkn> sipa: it's not. used it as an example, because theyd want to show btc as xbt
1952 2013-10-29 21:43:58 <sipa> ok
1953 2013-10-29 21:44:04 <sipa> i'm still missing the point :)
1954 2013-10-29 21:44:16 <null> melvster: yup. that's what made me realize :)
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1956 2013-10-29 21:44:34 <sipa> jegz: minimum number of confirmations in coins to consider iirc
1957 2013-10-29 21:44:45 <sipa> oh, no, i think it may just be historical and unused now
1958 2013-10-29 21:44:47 <abrkn> sipa: the point is that people on reddit keep refering to bitcoins as xbt and i was wondering if anyone in dev gives a shit about whatever iso standard theyre refering to
1959 2013-10-29 21:45:13 <sipa> abrkn: maybe some do, but i doubt it has anything to do with them being developers
1960 2013-10-29 21:45:24 <abrkn> sipa: http://www.xe.com/currency/xbt-bitcoin
1961 2013-10-29 21:45:31 <jegz> sipa: could it mean minimum number of confirmations on transactions that the money is being spent from?
1962 2013-10-29 21:45:40 <abrkn> sipa: well, developers decide what something is called :)
1963 2013-10-29 21:45:43 <melvster> abrkn: iso use X for commodities, and the other letters for countries, but then again ISO doesnt really set the rules on the internet ...
1964 2013-10-29 21:46:38 dgolds has joined
1965 2013-10-29 21:46:59 <abrkn> melvster: bitcoin is a commodity now?
1966 2013-10-29 21:47:16 <melvster> so ripple use XRP, and bitcoin has traditionally been BTC, there was a forum thread bout it, the result was it would cost $$$$ to get btc, and the community was kind of divided according to the vote
1967 2013-10-29 21:47:38 <melvster> some people just dont care, which is also a reasonable position to take
1968 2013-10-29 21:48:01 <abrkn> has the reference client always used btc?
1969 2013-10-29 21:48:12 <melvster> abrkn: some call it a commodity, some a currency, satoshi I think once called it a collectible
1970 2013-10-29 21:48:18 <sipa> as if the forum is representative for the community
1971 2013-10-29 21:48:22 <sipa> abrkn: yes
1972 2013-10-29 21:48:31 <abrkn> melvster: collectible... not bad
1973 2013-10-29 21:48:41 <abrkn> the forum, as in bitcointalk?
1974 2013-10-29 21:48:56 btcbtc has joined
1975 2013-10-29 21:49:04 <abrkn> if that forum represented the world population, i would light myself on fire
1976 2013-10-29 21:49:20 ichil1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1977 2013-10-29 21:49:20 <abrkn> there would be nothing left for which to live
1978 2013-10-29 21:49:26 <melvster> forum was good in the old days when satoshi was still posing there
1979 2013-10-29 21:49:31 <melvster> lol
1980 2013-10-29 21:49:34 <melvster> posting not posing
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1983 2013-10-29 21:49:56 <jegz> when using sendmany, are multiple transactions created or only a single transaction?
1984 2013-10-29 21:50:29 <melvster> hey guys good news!
1985 2013-10-29 21:50:29 Krellan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1986 2013-10-29 21:50:37 <abrkn> melvster: did someone buy an apartment for $27?
1987 2013-10-29 21:50:38 <melvster> bitcoin wallet just landed on ubuntu mobile
1988 2013-10-29 21:50:46 <melvster> Alright, it's finally published today, if you have an Ubuntu Touch
1989 2013-10-29 21:50:46 <melvster> device just search for bitcoin. I've also registered bugs which should
1990 2013-10-29 21:50:46 <melvster> give you an idea of what we plan to do. Feel free to add any other bugs
1991 2013-10-29 21:50:46 <melvster> you find:
1992 2013-10-29 21:50:46 <melvster> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bitcoin-app
1993 2013-10-29 21:50:53 <phantomcircuit> sipa, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3180
1994 2013-10-29 21:50:56 <phantomcircuit> have any comments?
1995 2013-10-29 21:51:06 dgolds has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1996 2013-10-29 21:51:28 <phantomcircuit> i'd like to get this thoroughly tested and merged asap
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2005 2013-10-29 21:59:43 <melvster> woot installing bitcoin wallet on my nexus 4 running ubuntu ... uses bitcoinj i think
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2008 2013-10-29 22:03:36 IGHOR has joined
2009 2013-10-29 22:04:06 PRab has joined
2010 2013-10-29 22:04:32 <IGHOR> Hi everyone!
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2015 2013-10-29 22:10:01 <IGHOR> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=201062
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2022 2013-10-29 22:15:28 <IGHOR> Who tryed BTCChina.com API ?
2023 2013-10-29 22:15:35 <IGHOR> tried, sorry for bad English
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2042 2013-10-29 22:43:45 <warren> how can i add more tags to gitub bitcoin issues?
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2047 2013-10-29 22:47:16 <Luke-Jr> warren: I think only people with push can do that
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2054 2013-10-29 22:52:35 <warren> Luke-Jr: darn
2055 2013-10-29 22:52:45 <warren> I want to label things
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2059 2013-10-29 22:53:58 <gmaxwell> warren: if you make a list I will apply them
2060 2013-10-29 22:55:13 askmike has joined
2061 2013-10-29 22:55:39 <warren> gmaxwell: spontaneous desire has faded. maybe later.
2062 2013-10-29 22:55:40 jegz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2063 2013-10-29 22:56:33 sustrik has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2064 2013-10-29 22:58:05 <Luke-Jr> lol
2065 2013-10-29 22:59:12 <adam3us> sipa: much further up you said about ecdsa recovery "[...Q is recovered] only in message signing" but why do you need key recovery in message signing.. in msg signing you are creating s,r so you know Q first is it a cross-check to test Q=(sR-H(m)G)/r ?
2066 2013-10-29 22:59:52 <gmaxwell> adam3us: because we don't send the public key with the signature, users verify w/ an address.
2067 2013-10-29 23:00:42 <gmaxwell> In hindsight I kinda wish we'd defined signmessage as a standard transaction nlocked infinitely far in to the future, with the message hash in a scriptpubkey.
2068 2013-10-29 23:00:48 <adam3us> gmax: well sipa said Q.x,r,s were all in the signature -- what you said is what i thought, he said otherwise
2069 2013-10-29 23:01:15 <warren> gmaxwell: if you see complaints about mac corruption, my new build needs testing
2070 2013-10-29 23:02:23 <gmaxwell> adam3us: in message signing (not in bitcoin transactions) the signature contains only r,s and the extra sign bits for Q.x to do the unique recovery.
2071 2013-10-29 23:02:24 execut3 has joined
2072 2013-10-29 23:02:47 <gmaxwell> we recover the pubkey, and compare it to the address the user provided.
2073 2013-10-29 23:03:00 yubrew has joined
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2075 2013-10-29 23:04:44 <adam3us> gmax: ah.. msg signing vs tx signing... i thought sipa meant msg signing as in tx signing - i see that is different
2076 2013-10-29 23:04:54 <sipa> adam3us: oh sorry, no
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2078 2013-10-29 23:05:19 <adam3us> gmaxwell,sipa: not to worry i just inferred the siging method would be consistent
2079 2013-10-29 23:05:30 <sipa> adam3us: transactions use scripts, and i said the script language was not designed with key recovery in mind
2080 2013-10-29 23:05:33 <jegz> is there any way to get a stacktrace for a crashing bitcoind? i don't see anything useful in debug.log
2081 2013-10-29 23:05:48 <sipa> while message signing was added much later
2082 2013-10-29 23:06:13 <adam3us> sipa: you did say that (script lang), i just didnt make the connection
2083 2013-10-29 23:06:18 <sipa> no worries :)
2084 2013-10-29 23:06:37 <sipa> in any case, i believe key recovery and pubkey decompression are very comparable computationally
2085 2013-10-29 23:06:46 <gmaxwell> adam3us: pedantically, transactions are signed via script. Technically bitcoin doesn't use ECDSA we use script. A meta-public-key-signature-scheme that includes ECDSA. :P
2086 2013-10-29 23:06:59 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2087 2013-10-29 23:07:04 <adam3us> gmaxwell: agreed
2088 2013-10-29 23:07:23 <gmaxwell> jegz: run it inside gdb.
2089 2013-10-29 23:07:39 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2090 2013-10-29 23:08:00 <jegz> gmaxwell: i don't know how to reproduce the crash, this is happening on a soon-to-be production server
2091 2013-10-29 23:08:13 <sipa> jegz: then run it in gdb for a long time :)
2092 2013-10-29 23:08:17 <sipa> or enable ulimit -c
2093 2013-10-29 23:08:24 <sipa> and analyze the core dump afterwards
2094 2013-10-29 23:08:31 <sipa> you probably want a bitcoind with debug symbols though
2095 2013-10-29 23:08:36 <jegz> shit
2096 2013-10-29 23:08:47 <jegz> maybe i'll just have a monitor agent restart it
2097 2013-10-29 23:09:17 <sipa> ?
2098 2013-10-29 23:09:28 <sipa> is what i said above a problem?
2099 2013-10-29 23:11:09 <sipa> (also, if it's actually crashing, i'd certainly like to know why)
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2101 2013-10-29 23:12:33 <adam3us> gmaxwell, sipa: seems like there ought to be some combined recover & verify ecdsa; seems there would be no point after calc Q=(sR-H(m)G)/r to then go check sR=H(m)G+rQ thats a tautology at that point
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2103 2013-10-29 23:12:49 <sipa> adam3us: indeed, recovery is verification
2104 2013-10-29 23:13:03 <gmaxwell> yea, we recover and then hash, and compare. Done.
2105 2013-10-29 23:13:03 <adam3us> gmaxwell,sipa: ie just calc Q=s ... ok right :) what i was about to type
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2108 2013-10-29 23:13:31 <sipa> except on curves with generator cofactor > 1, i think
2109 2013-10-29 23:13:38 <sipa> but that's not a problem for us
2110 2013-10-29 23:13:45 <phantomcircuit> jegz, what's the error in dmesg
2111 2013-10-29 23:13:52 <phantomcircuit> if it segfaulted there will be one
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2113 2013-10-29 23:14:01 <jegz> phantomcircuit: oh good idea i'll have to look
2114 2013-10-29 23:14:15 <phantomcircuit> it wont be super useful but it might give you an idea at least
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2117 2013-10-29 23:21:11 <phantomcircuit> sipa, hmm that patch actually could cause messages to be processed out of order
2118 2013-10-29 23:21:46 <phantomcircuit> > getdata [1,2,3], getblocks
2119 2013-10-29 23:22:01 <phantomcircuit> < data 1, blocks, data 2, data 3
2120 2013-10-29 23:22:11 <phantomcircuit> im not sure if that's really a problem
2121 2013-10-29 23:22:21 <phantomcircuit> but there might be things that assume an order to replies
2122 2013-10-29 23:22:51 jegz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2123 2013-10-29 23:23:01 <phantomcircuit> actually cjd's line will fix that
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2130 2013-10-29 23:34:04 <sipa> phantomcircuit: huh
2131 2013-10-29 23:34:17 <sipa> phantomcircuit: you shouldn't ever touch processing order
2132 2013-10-29 23:34:37 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah i fixed that
2133 2013-10-29 23:34:42 <phantomcircuit> or rather cjd fixed it
2134 2013-10-29 23:34:46 <sipa> if getdata processing causes a break, i think you need to return from processmessages immediately
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2136 2013-10-29 23:37:15 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah that's the change he suggested
2137 2013-10-29 23:37:44 <sipa> ok great
2138 2013-10-29 23:37:54 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i've pushed two changes can you take a look
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2140 2013-10-29 23:38:03 <phantomcircuit> cjd is being super helpful
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2143 2013-10-29 23:38:58 <gmaxwell> I still don't understand why we need a sleep at all, instead of just letting it wait on a select with a timeout, but I've long since mentally swapped out that code again.
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2148 2013-10-29 23:39:44 <sipa> i think the original reason for the sleep is preventing 100% cpu usage there
2149 2013-10-29 23:39:52 <gmaxwell> I understand that making it more roundrobbeny is a distinct change from eliminating the delays, but I'd still like to get all overt delays out of the communications path.
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2151 2013-10-29 23:40:44 <sipa> in any case, it could be reduced too i guess
2152 2013-10-29 23:40:46 <gmaxwell> sipa: normally you'd work until there is no more work to do, then let a select/poll put you to sleep until more data comes in (or until a housekeeping timeout fires).
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2155 2013-10-29 23:41:06 <sipa> but i'd need to go through the code again to see whether removing it entirely is ok
2156 2013-10-29 23:41:15 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, there are two threads, one is doing send/recv which consumes the send buffer and adds to vRecvMsg, the other is ThreadMessageHandler which consumes vRecvMsg and adds to the send buffer
2157 2013-10-29 23:41:45 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, there isn't really a good reason for them to be separate threads like that except that theoretically we could be running multiple ThreadMessageHandler threads
2158 2013-10-29 23:42:03 <sipa> having them separate certainly makes sense
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2160 2013-10-29 23:42:14 <phantomcircuit> but since most everything acquires the cmain lock it doesn't really make sense
2161 2013-10-29 23:42:21 <sipa> it means you can do i/o while cs_main is held by the processing code
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2163 2013-10-29 23:42:51 <gmaxwell> meh, well the kernel can do IO regardless of what we're doing.
2164 2013-10-29 23:43:14 <sipa> it does not have megabytes of queued data buffers afaik
2165 2013-10-29 23:43:18 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i suspect that you would find the cost of the syscall's for io is less than the cost of acquiring the cs_main lock when it's under contention
2166 2013-10-29 23:43:42 <phantomcircuit> sipa, actually the window on linux can grow to be fairly large now
2167 2013-10-29 23:44:08 <sipa> pwell we don't only support linux
2168 2013-10-29 23:44:21 <phantomcircuit> true
2169 2013-10-29 23:44:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: in links I think the default max is 256k.
2170 2013-10-29 23:45:05 <gmaxwell> (plus whatever is in flight on the network, which can be megabytes with window scaling)
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2172 2013-10-29 23:45:41 <gmaxwell> In any case, kinda silly to debate abstractly.. thats how it is now, and probably shouldn't be changed without a benchmark.
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2174 2013-10-29 23:46:05 <gmaxwell> But we could still sleep until we're woken by the other thread.
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2176 2013-10-29 23:46:22 <sipa> also, with a recent change of mine (unsure if merged), part of message sending actually happens without cs_main
2177 2013-10-29 23:47:06 <sipa> though it is in the same thread as processmessages, which ia the most likely candidate for locking it :)
2178 2013-10-29 23:47:24 <sipa> then again, it would allow ping responses during an expensive rpc for example
2179 2013-10-29 23:47:53 <sipa> sorry, ping sends
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2193 2013-10-29 23:58:16 <aupiff> hello all, I am on archlinux and the bdb default package is at version 5.1; I have installed bdb4.8 from source but strangly ./configure doesn't pick it up and tells me that only a version other than 4.8 is detected. any advice?
2194 2013-10-29 23:59:16 MrDaneelOlivaw has joined
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2196 2013-10-29 23:59:35 <MrDaneelOlivaw> hello
2197 2013-10-29 23:59:38 <phantomcircuit> 23:56:02 - 23:54:09