1 2013-11-03 00:01:25 <gmaxwell> warren: connect=xyz has nothing to do with bootstrap, and unless some bug has been introduced, the bootstrap loading runs in the loadblocks codepath and you won't download those same blocks from peers.
2 2013-11-03 00:01:25 <gmaxwell> Perhaps you're being confused by how its logged? it looks like they're coming in from the network in the logs.
3 2013-11-03 00:01:25 <gmaxwell> because its validating them as though they were.
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5 2013-11-03 00:01:58 <warren> gmaxwell: when I import bootstrap.dat with -connect= to one peer, that other peer's logs sees getblocks 500 at a time in sync with the indexing by the new client
6 2013-11-03 00:04:07 <sipa> what do you see in debug.log (with -debug enabled)
7 2013-11-03 00:04:29 <warren> ah, trying tat
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14 2013-11-03 00:17:32 <HaltingState> sipa, int secp256k1_ecdsa_pubkey_create(unsigned char *pubkey, int *pubkeylen, const unsigned char *seckey, int compressed);
15 2013-11-03 00:17:32 <HaltingState> is that how i generate private/public keys?
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18 2013-11-03 00:19:45 <sipa> HaltingState: you pass in a random 32-byte string as seckey
19 2013-11-03 00:19:45 <sipa> HaltingState: if it is valid, the corresponding pubkey is put in pubkey
20 2013-11-03 00:19:45 <sipa> and true is returned
21 2013-11-03 00:19:45 <sipa> otherwise, false is returned
22 2013-11-03 00:19:45 <HaltingState> what is a non-valid 32 byte string
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24 2013-11-03 00:21:56 <sipa> all zeroes of example
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26 2013-11-03 00:21:56 <sipa> around 1 in 2^128 32-byte strings are invalid, so the odds of even ever seeing one is extremely rare
27 2013-11-03 00:21:56 <sipa> but still, we need to deal with that possibility
28 2013-11-03 00:21:56 <HaltingState> most random 32 byte strings are points on the curve?
29 2013-11-03 00:21:56 <sipa> strings are not points
30 2013-11-03 00:21:56 <warren> Importing bootstrap.dat...
31 2013-11-03 00:21:56 <HaltingState> they get transformed into points somehow?
32 2013-11-03 00:21:56 <sipa> private keys are mathematically numbers
33 2013-11-03 00:21:56 <warren> then nothing except trying to connect to 0.0.0.0
34 2013-11-03 00:21:56 <warren> no indexing of blocks
35 2013-11-03 00:22:01 <sipa> each has a corresponding point on the curve as public key
36 2013-11-03 00:24:07 <sipa> a private key is just a number
37 2013-11-03 00:24:07 <sipa> a public key is a point with x/y coordinates
38 2013-11-03 00:24:32 <sipa> almost every 256-bit number is a valid private key (one with a point on the curve corresponding to it)
39 2013-11-03 00:26:20 <sipa> HaltingState: ok?
40 2013-11-03 00:26:20 <HaltingState> yes
41 2013-11-03 00:26:20 <HaltingState> i had an F in 750 level graduate group theory, remember that awful book ahahaha
42 2013-11-03 00:26:20 <sipa> 750?
43 2013-11-03 00:26:25 <HaltingState> i know there is a group operation in ECC and its not ring like integers (with addition/multiplication mod N) and that there is single operation
44 2013-11-03 00:28:31 <HaltingState> 100 level is freshman, 200 second year etc.. 750... is ....
45 2013-11-03 00:28:31 <sipa> ok
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47 2013-11-03 00:28:31 <sipa> yes, there is an addition operation defined between points on the curve
48 2013-11-03 00:28:31 <HaltingState> it only started to make sense to me after reading a lot of this stuff
49 2013-11-03 00:28:31 <sipa> which always result in a new point on the curve (or the point at infinity)
50 2013-11-03 00:28:31 <HaltingState> actualyl, if you find a point that is not in ring/group, you can probably recover private key (at least for RSA); so i guess those points have to be rare
51 2013-11-03 00:28:31 <sipa> together, those form a group
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53 2013-11-03 00:28:31 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
54 2013-11-03 00:28:31 <sipa> more than half of random points are not on the curve
55 2013-11-03 00:28:31 <sipa> forgrt RSA
56 2013-11-03 00:28:36 <HaltingState> <sipa> almost every 256-bit number is a valid private key (one with a point on the curve corresponding to it)
57 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <sipa> eh
58 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <HaltingState> but half of them are not on curve?
59 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <gmaxwell> private key.
60 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <HaltingState> are private keys on the curve?
61 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <sipa> a private key is a NUMBER
62 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <sipa> a public key is a POINT
63 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <HaltingState> ahhhh
64 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <sipa> the curve comsists of points
65 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <gmaxwell> half the x,y values in the field are not on the curve, a private key is an integer.
66 2013-11-03 00:30:42 dgolds has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
67 2013-11-03 00:30:42 * gmaxwell lets sipa handle it. oops. :P
68 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <sipa> and actually, it is less tha the square root, not less than half, sorry :)
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70 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <sipa> there are approximately 2**256 points on the curve
71 2013-11-03 00:30:42 <HaltingState> ok, i have key generation in the golang secp256k1 working yay
72 2013-11-03 00:30:45 <sipa> while there are (obviously) 2**512 points with 2 256-bit numbers
73 2013-11-03 00:31:34 <gmaxwell> 115792089237316195423570985008687907852837564279074904382605163141518161494337 points for our curve.
74 2013-11-03 00:32:58 <sipa> if you include the point at infinity
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76 2013-11-03 00:33:23 <sipa> (not that i checked the number, i just know it has to be odd if you coumt the entire group)
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78 2013-11-03 00:35:15 <HaltingState> lol
79 2013-11-03 00:39:11 <warren> confirmed, it is grabbing all of the blocks from the peer after "Importing bootstrap.dat..."
80 2013-11-03 00:40:22 <sipa> what code version?
81 2013-11-03 00:41:44 <warren> this is litecoin-0.8.5.1, I can reproduce it on bitcoin-0.8.5 too
82 2013-11-03 00:42:06 <sipa> is bootstrap.dat renamed afterwards?
83 2013-11-03 00:42:21 <warren> yes
84 2013-11-03 00:42:49 <sipa> but you didn't get any ProcessBlock messages in debug.log before importing ended?
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91 2013-11-03 00:44:19 * sipa zZzZ
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93 2013-11-03 00:45:33 <warren> sipa: no ProcessBlock messages at all until it begins getting blocks from the peer.
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98 2013-11-03 00:47:31 <gmaxwell> warren: was this node already partially synced up before you did this?
99 2013-11-03 00:47:52 <warren> gmaxwell: nope
100 2013-11-03 00:49:31 <warren> I used linearize.py in bitcoin master from a bitcoin master node
101 2013-11-03 00:49:47 Raziel has joined
102 2013-11-03 00:50:02 <phantomcircuit> warren, lol
103 2013-11-03 00:50:53 <warren> phantomcircuit: what?
104 2013-11-03 00:50:54 <gmaxwell> warren: how big is your bootstrap.dat?
105 2013-11-03 00:50:54 <phantomcircuit> warren, cat blocks/blk*dat > bootstrap.dat
106 2013-11-03 00:50:55 <phantomcircuit> magic
107 2013-11-03 00:51:19 <warren> gmaxwell: litecoin is 1.4GB, i'm redoing the bitcoin one now
108 2013-11-03 00:51:47 <warren> phantomcircuit: if you do that isn't it out of order? (not a probem I know)
109 2013-11-03 00:51:56 <warren> except if you want it reproducible
110 2013-11-03 00:51:59 <HaltingState> sipa, gmaxwell https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21517274/img/bitcoins_stolen.png
111 2013-11-03 00:52:01 <phantomcircuit> warren, no it just has orphaned blocks
112 2013-11-03 00:52:14 <HaltingState> i will add a secure random number generator and an entropy pool ahahaha; omg
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114 2013-11-03 00:55:53 <warren> LogPrintf("Loaded %i blocks from external file in %"PRI64d"ms\n", nLoaded, GetTimeMillis() - nStart);
115 2013-11-03 00:55:56 <warren> not seeing this in debug.log at al
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117 2013-11-03 01:02:17 <warren> I give up for now.
118 2013-11-03 01:05:02 <dobry-den> What's the checklist for verifying a block? I imagine 1) Calculate difficulty, 2) Verify PoF, if valid, then 3) verify txns.
119 2013-11-03 01:05:12 <dobry-den> I remember seeing a checklist of the wiki a while back but can't find it
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125 2013-11-03 01:16:00 <warren> figured out hte problem. the linearize.py output just doesn't work.
126 2013-11-03 01:16:08 <warren> when I cat together the blocks files it works
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146 2013-11-03 01:46:46 <jgarzik> warren, sounds like your python is broken
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148 2013-11-03 01:49:34 <warren> jgarzik: fedora 19?
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166 2013-11-03 02:11:29 <HaltingState> +
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174 2013-11-03 02:24:31 <jgarzik> warren, dunno, still on Ubuntu here. That's linearize.py on Ubuntu 13 generated the current bootstrap.dat torrent, which has been widely validated.
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178 2013-11-03 02:33:28 <warren> petertodd: did you get a BIP number assigned?
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195 2013-11-03 03:33:09 <petertodd> warren: nope
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221 2013-11-03 04:31:04 <Evilmax> ;;blocks
222 2013-11-03 04:31:09 <gribble> 267623
223 2013-11-03 04:31:11 <Evilmax> ;;blocks
224 2013-11-03 04:31:12 <gribble> 267623
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241 2013-11-03 05:36:30 <Polyatomic> Bitcoin-QT Question: Is there a rule of thumb I can follow regarding how often I should back up my wallet.dat
242 2013-11-03 05:39:28 dgolds has joined
243 2013-11-03 05:40:39 <weex> every 10 transactions
244 2013-11-03 05:40:53 <weex> the client generates 100 addresses in advance
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253 2013-11-03 06:03:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Polyatomic: at least every $keypool address generations
254 2013-11-03 06:03:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|An address generation happens either when you ask for it, or when you create a transaction involving change.
255 2013-11-03 06:03:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The keypool, by default, is 100 addresses, but that's configurable.
256 2013-11-03 06:05:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Bitcoin generates a certain number of addresses ahead of time, and when the software needs a new address, it takes the oldest one from this pool and generates a new one to add to the end
257 2013-11-03 06:05:38 Application has joined
258 2013-11-03 06:06:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|, which means that as long as your backup is recent enough to include all the addresses you've pulled out of the keypool, you're good)
259 2013-11-03 06:09:56 crank has joined
260 2013-11-03 06:11:00 <Polyatomic> cheers michagogo|cloud :what happens after 100 change addresses are generated. When on default.
261 2013-11-03 06:11:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Any addresses, not just change addresses
262 2013-11-03 06:11:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And at that point, your backups will be incomplete
263 2013-11-03 06:12:01 sustrik has joined
264 2013-11-03 06:12:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Because you will have been using addresses that aren't in the backup
265 2013-11-03 06:12:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I suspect you'll find a good explanation at the following link: ,,(bc,wiki keypool)
266 2013-11-03 06:12:42 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Key_pool | Dec 12, 2012 ... New public and private keys are pre-generated and stored in a queue before use . This pooling feature was added so backups of the wallet ...
267 2013-11-03 06:13:04 <Polyatomic> thanks michagogo|cloud
268 2013-11-03 06:13:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Np
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403 2013-11-03 11:11:30 <HaltingState> sipa, heheh https://github.com/haltingstate/telehash
404 2013-11-03 11:12:13 <HaltingState> this guy is going to be pissed at me; he wants to use RSA and i am like "No" and wants to use r curve and i think i will have first working implementation of his things because they are screwing with rsa in javascript/node etc
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406 2013-11-03 11:14:16 <melvster> HaltingState: IMHO, RSA in general is superior to ECC, though ECC is certainly more compact
407 2013-11-03 11:14:49 <HaltingState> i think it should support both, but i am designing it to be secure even if ECC is broken
408 2013-11-03 11:15:13 <melvster> HaltingState: +1 best of all worlds
409 2013-11-03 11:15:29 <HaltingState> they could break an AES key on a packet and they still have to do preimage attack on SHA256 if they want to encrypt more than just that single packet
410 2013-11-03 11:16:02 <Eliel> you mean decrypt?
411 2013-11-03 11:16:13 <HaltingState> this thing will allow you to created shared/distributed entropy pools where you have hundreds of nodes that each have shared secrets with each other and it sort of insane
412 2013-11-03 11:16:18 <HaltingState> ya, decrypt
413 2013-11-03 11:16:42 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
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415 2013-11-03 11:16:51 <melvster> HaltingState: By the way im working on something similar ... a complete abstraction of bitcoin to the web, including the addressing system and adding data to that (already working)
416 2013-11-03 11:17:32 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
417 2013-11-03 11:17:46 <HaltingState> so A introduces B to C and gives sha256 of nonce of shared secrete between A and C to B and then you use that for shared secret between B and C and even if C's private key is public, the communication betwen B and C is secure as long as they dont know shared secret between A and C, AND they cant do preimage attack on sha256
418 2013-11-03 11:17:58 <HaltingState> melvster, o0o0o0 gimme more info
419 2013-11-03 11:18:24 valparaiso is now known as valparaiso_afk
420 2013-11-03 11:18:32 <HaltingState> i want telehash to use bitcoin addresses because we will have trust stuff soon and it can be used for anti sybil attack etc
421 2013-11-03 11:19:39 valparaiso_afk is now known as valparaiso
422 2013-11-03 11:19:58 <melvster> HaltingState: starting with the model ive translated it to the semantic web so that any web page could describe a block (Ive not yet done transactions but hopefully this week) ... I have a basic web miner, and a client which is quite manual right now ... I've replaced the P2P network with an abstraction of bitcoind that is agnostic to the transport mechanism, so can work over P2P as per satsoshi's client, or HTTP via the web ... I'm right now putti
423 2013-11-03 11:19:59 <melvster> ng together user interfaces
424 2013-11-03 11:20:01 <Eliel> HaltingState: this thing you're working on looks rather promising from a quick look :)
425 2013-11-03 11:20:44 <melvster> ive also modeled bitcoin addresses than can be added to any web page using the semantic web, and via the web (or offline) you can tie arbitrary key value pairs to it
426 2013-11-03 11:21:41 <melvster> HaltingState: Some rough example is here: http://testcoin.org/.well-known/ni/sha-256/AAAAAAAAAAX--HN-FN6076EaoWrmBS5rXPc3WGOUuYY
427 2013-11-03 11:22:24 <melvster> I'm working half from satoshi's original concept, half from what has been implemented to date
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432 2013-11-03 11:26:54 <melvster> PS I like your use of the term "mesh protocol" :)
433 2013-11-03 11:27:47 <sipa> melvster: what is the end goal?
434 2013-11-03 11:28:10 ov has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
435 2013-11-03 11:29:04 <melvster> sipa: I dont really have a goal, but it seems to me that the web is a great system because it has a huge audience, and bitcoin is a great system because -- well we all know why ... so the intersection is interesting to me ... perhaps it can be to bitcoin what hotmail was to email ...
436 2013-11-03 11:29:30 <sipa> that seems very vague
437 2013-11-03 11:29:31 <melvster> main goal is to increase bitcoin adoption
438 2013-11-03 11:29:48 <sipa> and the web in general isn't very compatible with bitcoin's philosophy
439 2013-11-03 11:29:49 <melvster> web stuff is often vague
440 2013-11-03 11:30:06 <sipa> as the web is very service-client, not peer to peer
441 2013-11-03 11:30:06 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
442 2013-11-03 11:30:24 <melvster> sipa: what do you mean by compatible ... yeah the reason it's client server was not how it was intended to be
443 2013-11-03 11:30:26 <sipa> i.e., you'll always be needing to trust the data on a page
444 2013-11-03 11:30:41 <melvster> this is true
445 2013-11-03 11:30:52 <melvster> but people do this every day already
446 2013-11-03 11:31:20 <sipa> well that's like saying that b.i is a good thing because people already visit websites
447 2013-11-03 11:31:32 <melvster> b.i?
448 2013-11-03 11:31:39 <sipa> blockchain.info
449 2013-11-03 11:32:17 <melvster> yes, exactly ... people are used to working with the web ... you can get millions of users with a good system
450 2013-11-03 11:32:30 <melvster> this is very common on the web
451 2013-11-03 11:32:41 <melvster> in the sense that it's been done 1000s of times
452 2013-11-03 11:33:13 <sipa> the point is that bitcoin doesn't require trust in anyone... if people choose a centralized approach because it is more convenient, then we shoukd try to understand what to improve that the decentralized approach matches it
453 2013-11-03 11:33:54 <sipa> not say "but in the end, people will use the centralized system anyway" and just give up
454 2013-11-03 11:33:59 <melvster> sipa: the way the web is today may look centralized, and is to a large extent, but it's *design* was to be decentralized ... I'm trying to stay in line with the original design of the web ...
455 2013-11-03 11:34:19 <sipa> decentralized is an overloaded term
456 2013-11-03 11:34:41 <sipa> i know the web was designed so that anyone could access any information put there by anyone
457 2013-11-03 11:34:41 <melvster> sipa: see http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Principles.html
458 2013-11-03 11:34:53 <melvster> see the section on decentralization
459 2013-11-03 11:35:07 <melvster> also taken from brian carpenter's principles of internet architecture
460 2013-11-03 11:35:39 <sipa> yes yes, no single point of failure
461 2013-11-03 11:35:49 <melvster> that's the aim!
462 2013-11-03 11:36:03 <sipa> but that is still not the same as "not needing to trust anyone"
463 2013-11-03 11:36:19 <skinnkavaj> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/10/meet-badbios-the-mysterious-mac-and-pc-malware-that-jumps-airgaps/
464 2013-11-03 11:36:55 <melvster> sipa: you always have to trust someone, the best we can do is to distribute that trust out
465 2013-11-03 11:37:30 <sipa> i disagree
466 2013-11-03 11:38:17 <melvster> consider this: traditional banking is a single point of failure, ripple has consensus among a small number of nodes, bitcoin distributes trust across many members of the network ...
467 2013-11-03 11:38:32 <sipa> bitcoin does not distribute trust
468 2013-11-03 11:38:51 <sipa> a bitcoin node simply doesn't accept anything invalid
469 2013-11-03 11:39:03 <sipa> every node validates everything
470 2013-11-03 11:40:03 <sipa> it relies on mining to find a consensus for one thing, where this zero-trust doean't apply: agreeing on a single version of history when there are competing ones
471 2013-11-03 11:40:23 <melvster> yes
472 2013-11-03 11:40:29 <sipa> and there certainly is a distribution of trust there
473 2013-11-03 11:40:34 <melvster> and it's always impossible to know the longest chain
474 2013-11-03 11:40:47 <melvster> the longest chain is just the longest chain you know of
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476 2013-11-03 11:41:04 <sipa> the longest _valid_ chain you know
477 2013-11-03 11:41:12 <melvster> sorry yes
478 2013-11-03 11:41:23 <sipa> that's the point i'm making
479 2013-11-03 11:41:46 <sipa> it is not letting the network decide for you what is valid
480 2013-11-03 11:42:03 <sipa> you only use it as a tiebreaking to decide on conflicts
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482 2013-11-03 11:43:41 <melvster> which is important!
483 2013-11-03 11:43:56 <melvster> because the whole ledger depends on it
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485 2013-11-03 11:46:01 <sipa> yes, but it is very different from "i'm going to some website to see the true history"
486 2013-11-03 11:46:13 <sipa> even if it a website by someone you'd want to trust
487 2013-11-03 11:46:22 <melvster> true
488 2013-11-03 11:46:30 <melvster> that's why my system can be replicated over 1000s of websites
489 2013-11-03 11:46:44 <melvster> or millions
490 2013-11-03 11:47:44 <melvster> actually the semantic web isnt even dependent on the web
491 2013-11-03 11:47:56 <melvster> you can replicate it in a database or personal storage space
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495 2013-11-03 11:53:28 <melvster> the main trusted third party in the web is DNS
496 2013-11-03 11:53:38 <melvster> so in that sense bitcoin's P2P protocol is superior
497 2013-11-03 11:54:20 <melvster> that's the trade off for having a large ecosystem
498 2013-11-03 11:55:27 <melvster> but im just working at the data level so that it can be agnostic to the data transport mechanism
499 2013-11-03 11:55:46 Mike_B has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
500 2013-11-03 11:56:20 <melvster> sipa: I agree with you that the way the web works today mostly is quite centralized ... but I'm hoping to make it less so ... note: Tim Berners-Lee's group at MIT (who I do some work with) is called the "Decentralized" Information Group (DIG)
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544 2013-11-03 14:04:04 <sipa> ;;nethash
545 2013-11-03 14:04:06 <gribble> 4063701.58776
546 2013-11-03 14:04:36 <sipa> ;;calc log([nethash]*10**9)/log(2)
547 2013-11-03 14:04:38 <gribble> 51.851715887
548 2013-11-03 14:07:06 crank has joined
549 2013-11-03 14:08:11 TD has joined
550 2013-11-03 14:08:12 <sipa> ;;calc log([nethash]*10**9*600)/log(2)
551 2013-11-03 14:08:14 <gribble> 61.0805345775
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566 2013-11-03 14:28:31 <justaskingplz> hey i'm getting 400 not found from the JSON api when I try to use importaddress
567 2013-11-03 14:28:45 <justaskingplz> sorry lol 404 not found
568 2013-11-03 14:28:56 <sipa> do other commands work?
569 2013-11-03 14:28:59 <justaskingplz> ya
570 2013-11-03 14:29:20 <justaskingplz> getinfo for example
571 2013-11-03 14:29:21 <sipa> are you using a code branch with watch-only wallet support?
572 2013-11-03 14:29:40 <justaskingplz> i am using the master at github right now
573 2013-11-03 14:29:48 <justaskingplz> didn't watch only wallet support get merged into that?
574 2013-11-03 14:29:52 <sipa> no
575 2013-11-03 14:29:56 <justaskingplz> omg
576 2013-11-03 14:29:59 CryptoBuck has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
577 2013-11-03 14:30:19 <justaskingplz> lol it hasn't been merged yet
578 2013-11-03 14:30:24 <justaskingplz> i didn't even check
579 2013-11-03 14:31:07 <bmcgee> Hey guys, for the past week I've been trying to get my bitcoind to re-sync the block chain. I've had 2 unsuccessful attempts that when it gets near to complete, my machine seems to shit itself and the blocks get corrupted, forcing a re-index. I'm on Mac OS with 0.8.5. It's already taking about 2-3 days sync
580 2013-11-03 14:31:36 <sipa> define "machine shits itself"
581 2013-11-03 14:32:06 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
582 2013-11-03 14:32:22 <justaskingplz> could i just clone from sipa/watchonly on github and use that?
583 2013-11-03 14:32:22 <bmcgee> becomes unresponsive, freezes
584 2013-11-03 14:32:41 nanotube has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
585 2013-11-03 14:32:45 <sipa> justaskingplz: yes, but be aware that it's a development branch
586 2013-11-03 14:32:52 <justaskingplz> ok cool
587 2013-11-03 14:32:55 <sipa> bmcgee: seems like a problem with your machine
588 2013-11-03 14:33:03 <sipa> bmcgee: can you try running with -par=1
589 2013-11-03 14:33:16 <sipa> (or par=1 in bitcoin.conf)
590 2013-11-03 14:33:36 <sipa> that will limit processing to a single core, which may be more stable
591 2013-11-03 14:33:55 <bmcgee> sipa: since the indexing process is CPU bound I'm guessing this will slow it down further?
592 2013-11-03 14:34:02 <sipa> yes
593 2013-11-03 14:34:10 <sipa> but only the last part
594 2013-11-03 14:34:25 <sipa> before the last checkpoint, signature checking is disabled anyway
595 2013-11-03 14:34:36 <bmcgee> I'll give that a try then
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602 2013-11-03 14:37:40 <justaskingplz> when is a "checkpoint"
603 2013-11-03 14:37:46 <justaskingplz> is that every difficulty change?
604 2013-11-03 14:37:49 <sipa> no
605 2013-11-03 14:37:55 <justaskingplz> IO related then
606 2013-11-03 14:38:01 <sipa> every few releases, a checkpoint is added to the reference client
607 2013-11-03 14:38:13 <justaskingplz> ohhh
608 2013-11-03 14:38:48 <sipa> the last one is at 250000 now
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611 2013-11-03 14:42:27 <arioBarzan> Is m {pubkey}...{pubkey} n OP_CHECKMULTISIG transactions still relayed or one would need to use OP_HASH160 [20-byte-hash-value] OP_EQUAL ?
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613 2013-11-03 14:47:03 <sipa> if n <= 3, they are standard
614 2013-11-03 14:47:35 <sipa> for p2sh, standardness can only be checked when the subscript isbrevealed, so at spend tike
615 2013-11-03 14:47:38 <sipa> *time
616 2013-11-03 14:48:22 <arioBarzan> sipa: tnx
617 2013-11-03 14:49:59 <justaskingplz> so the importaddress RPC call is taking a long time but i don't see anything happening in debug.log
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619 2013-11-03 14:50:25 <justaskingplz> shouldn't i see rescan stuff
620 2013-11-03 14:50:28 ds is now known as away!ds@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-kqsgikodvlabxlrd|dongshengcn
621 2013-11-03 14:50:39 <sipa> justaskingplz: there's no debug output during rescan
622 2013-11-03 14:50:46 <sipa> it may take minutes
623 2013-11-03 14:50:52 <justaskingplz> nice alright thnx
624 2013-11-03 14:51:02 <sipa> if you don't want the rescan, add a false after the command
625 2013-11-03 14:51:30 <sipa> but that only works if you know the address hasn't been used yet
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627 2013-11-03 14:54:14 <arioBarzan> In case of having concern about hypothetic preimage attack on RIPEMD-160, would "m {pubkey}...{pubkey} n OP_CHECKMULTISIG" be assumed more secure than "OP_HASH160 [20-byte-hash-value] OP_EQUAL"?
628 2013-11-03 14:54:29 <sipa> yes
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634 2013-11-03 15:06:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|<sipa> but that only works if you know the address hasn't been used yet
635 2013-11-03 15:07:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or if you're importing multiple addresses and that's not the last one, right?
636 2013-11-03 15:07:37 crank has joined
637 2013-11-03 15:09:22 <sipa> right
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653 2013-11-03 15:28:15 <gulli_> What bitcoin library are most web-app developers using? Guessing its not BitcoinJ since it seems, at first glance, to not scale well
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674 2013-11-03 15:53:00 <Evilmax> ;;blocks
675 2013-11-03 15:53:02 <gribble> 267729
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685 2013-11-03 16:11:09 <dobry-den> gulli_: why wouldnt it scale
686 2013-11-03 16:11:54 <dobry-den> i think it's just a spv node
687 2013-11-03 16:12:13 <gulli_> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/wiki/Limitations
688 2013-11-03 16:12:29 <gulli_> The Wallet code doesn't scale, at all. All transactions that were ever relevant to the wallet are loaded into memory, all the time, and re-written every time the wallet is saved. This results in a simple on-disk format accessible to many kinds of apps, but has poor performance for heavy users.
689 2013-11-03 16:12:33 <gulli_> it says
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692 2013-11-03 16:17:01 <dobry-den> oh, scaling to serve and handle more and more users
693 2013-11-03 16:18:06 <gulli_> yup
694 2013-11-03 16:18:31 <gulli_> do you use bitcoinj?
695 2013-11-03 16:18:38 OrP has joined
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697 2013-11-03 16:20:07 <dobry-den> nah, i was just curious
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701 2013-11-03 16:21:34 <dobry-den> i would imagine the reference impl would be most prevalent
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766 2013-11-03 17:26:44 <gulli_> Anyone here that uses libbitcoin?
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779 2013-11-03 17:55:00 <dobry-den> gulli_: i've played with it. i'm building something similar
780 2013-11-03 17:55:35 <dobry-den> somewhat of a lispcoin :)
781 2013-11-03 17:56:16 <gulli_> I want to implement a small exchange
782 2013-11-03 17:56:31 <gulli_> been checking around what libraries are available
783 2013-11-03 17:56:55 <daybyter> on what platform, gulli_?
784 2013-11-03 17:57:14 <gulli_> Im not tied to a platform really
785 2013-11-03 17:57:24 dongshengcn is now known as ds|away
786 2013-11-03 17:57:29 <gulli_> well, I am programming it in Java and using the play framework
787 2013-11-03 17:57:38 oPen_syLar has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
788 2013-11-03 17:58:07 <gulli_> but I could program all that touches the bitcoin network itself in anything I suppose
789 2013-11-03 17:58:23 <gulli_> thats why I'm checking out more lirbaries that BitcoinJ
790 2013-11-03 17:58:26 <dobry-den> cool. i'm working on jvm tools (clojure)
791 2013-11-03 17:58:31 <daybyter> java? You like java? :-)
792 2013-11-03 17:58:43 <michagogo> gulli_: Erm, fot an exchange, I think you really want a full node
793 2013-11-03 17:58:44 <gulli_> yeah, Don't really dislike any language really
794 2013-11-03 17:58:45 <michagogo> for*
795 2013-11-03 17:58:51 * daybyter hugs gulli_
796 2013-11-03 17:58:56 <gulli_> ^^
797 2013-11-03 17:59:08 <dobry-den> gulli_: Have you ever used Clojure?
798 2013-11-03 17:59:08 <gulli_> thus libbitcoin?
799 2013-11-03 17:59:13 <daybyter> everybody in IRC hates java...
800 2013-11-03 17:59:21 <gulli_> nope, never used it
801 2013-11-03 17:59:33 <daybyter> except a few folks in ##java ....
802 2013-11-03 17:59:52 * daybyter loves java...
803 2013-11-03 18:00:14 <daybyter> I write trading software in java...
804 2013-11-03 18:00:17 <tgs3> I love java almost as much as PHP
805 2013-11-03 18:00:26 <tgs3> "love" (:
806 2013-11-03 18:00:27 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
807 2013-11-03 18:00:32 <dobry-den> Java is my "low level language" since I use other JVM langs
808 2013-11-03 18:00:38 <dobry-den> For that purpose I don't mind :)
809 2013-11-03 18:00:57 <gulli_> daybyter, what libs are you using?
810 2013-11-03 18:01:14 <daybyter> I write mostly my own stuff...
811 2013-11-03 18:01:34 <daybyter> well, some apache libs, drools, jsoup etc.
812 2013-11-03 18:01:52 <daybyter> just the basics. But the cryptocoin stuff is from me...
813 2013-11-03 18:02:01 <sipa> michagogo: i figure you'd use any library or eallet implementation behind a full node
814 2013-11-03 18:02:11 <michagogo> Right.
815 2013-11-03 18:02:13 <sipa> *wallet
816 2013-11-03 18:02:40 <gulli_> michagogo: I know you can "easily" implement a full node in libbitcoin
817 2013-11-03 18:02:43 <daybyter> http://i.imgur.com/MqHfF.jpg
818 2013-11-03 18:03:05 <gulli_> daybyter: looks cool :)
819 2013-11-03 18:03:28 <gulli_> what are you gonna use it for? Personal trading?
820 2013-11-03 18:03:40 <daybyter> Bot trading mainly...
821 2013-11-03 18:03:48 <daybyter> I want to learn this trade stuff...
822 2013-11-03 18:03:56 <sipa> gulli_: i wouldn't use anything but the reference client for a full node (i'm biased since i work on it, of course)
823 2013-11-03 18:04:14 <daybyter> http://i.imgur.com/xpqoqnk.png
824 2013-11-03 18:04:23 <sipa> what you use for wallet software behind it doesn't really matter then
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828 2013-11-03 18:04:52 <daybyter> I released some of my API implementations: https://github.com/ReAzem/cryptocoin-tradelib
829 2013-11-03 18:05:33 <daybyter> Do you want to support mobiles? I also write android stuff...
830 2013-11-03 18:05:44 <daybyter> would like to help you, if I can...
831 2013-11-03 18:08:05 <gulli_> sipa: reference client?
832 2013-11-03 18:08:13 <gulli_> daybyter: you talking to me? :)
833 2013-11-03 18:08:30 <dobry-den> gulli_: the main client
834 2013-11-03 18:08:36 crank has joined
835 2013-11-03 18:08:47 <sipa> gulli_: bitcoind
836 2013-11-03 18:08:47 <gulli_> ahh ok
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838 2013-11-03 18:09:28 <daybyter> gulli_: yes! I already made a data model for an exchange...
839 2013-11-03 18:10:02 <dobry-den> in other words, every other full-node implementation is an effort to not just implement bitcoin but also to replicate the behavior of bitcoind.
840 2013-11-03 18:10:32 <sipa> dobry-den: well, it's a consensus network
841 2013-11-03 18:10:57 <sipa> dobry-den: every single node on the network must validate all rules, and independently come to the exact same conclusion about being valid or not
842 2013-11-03 18:11:30 <dobry-den> that's why i would probably go with the reference node if it was backing something critical like an exchange
843 2013-11-03 18:12:07 <gulli_> Well, my exchange is a little different I guess ^^. I have viraltrade.com , developing it so people can exchange game currency for digital currency and fiat
844 2013-11-03 18:12:20 <sipa> as the alternative may be a forked chain, where every pre-existing coin can be spent once in each fork, it's almost always the case that being consistent with the rest of the network is more important than being "correct"
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847 2013-11-03 18:12:52 <gulli_> what the website does now is it gathers around 200,000 offers for game currency from various websites online, want to add to it soon that users can put their own bid/ask offers
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850 2013-11-03 18:13:11 <Tril> which is why we need at least 3 competing implementations with 1/3 of the network so a bug in one doesn't fork.
851 2013-11-03 18:13:19 <gulli_> for BTCxGame currency
852 2013-11-03 18:13:21 <sipa> Tril: it's not that easy
853 2013-11-03 18:13:34 <gulli_> then later implement BTCxGame CurrencyxFiat
854 2013-11-03 18:13:39 <sipa> more version also means quadratically more conmbinations that can fail
855 2013-11-03 18:14:01 <dobry-den> sipa: what are you saying then about replicating bitcoind?
856 2013-11-03 18:14:13 <dobry-den> doesn't consensus with the network boil down to that?
857 2013-11-03 18:14:17 <sipa> dobry-den: yes
858 2013-11-03 18:14:20 <Tril> sipa: fail = transactions being rejected? that's the base case
859 2013-11-03 18:14:32 <sipa> Tril: fail = fork
860 2013-11-03 18:15:04 <sipa> and a fork with not majority of mining power is not necessarily less bad
861 2013-11-03 18:15:18 <gmaxwell> hm. I guess those weird nodes are now behaving weirder: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324002.0
862 2013-11-03 18:15:21 <gulli_> so I should use bitcoind as the wallet and then just code around that? C++ then?
863 2013-11-03 18:15:31 <sipa> gulli_: that's exactly not what i said
864 2013-11-03 18:15:40 <sipa> gulli_: run a bitcoind, and use anything as a wallet behind that
865 2013-11-03 18:15:52 <sipa> and by behind, i mean connecting to it, but not connecting outside
866 2013-11-03 18:16:15 <dobry-den> once you have bitcoind running, you can wrap it with whatever language you like
867 2013-11-03 18:16:25 <gulli_> ahh ok
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869 2013-11-03 18:16:38 <sipa> Tril: if your alternate implementation fails to accept the majority-accepted chain, you have a problem
870 2013-11-03 18:16:46 <sipa> Tril: even if you're the only one running it
871 2013-11-03 18:17:12 <sipa> if many people are running it, and it becomes ambiguous which chain is the "right" one, things are even worse
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875 2013-11-03 18:17:39 <Tril> sipa: maybe true but coordinating a protocol between multiple implementations is far superior than having one
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877 2013-11-03 18:18:13 <Tril> i'd rather have 3 bug for bug compatible different language implementations
878 2013-11-03 18:18:29 <sipa> fully agree there
879 2013-11-03 18:18:46 <sipa> but i think getting bug-for-bug compatibility is extremely hard to achieve
880 2013-11-03 18:19:04 <arioBarzan> Where this bug come from? Did Satoshi missed sth? (OP_0 is required because of a bug in OP_CHECKMULTISIG; it pops one too many items off the execution stack, so a dummy value must be placed on the stack).
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883 2013-11-03 18:19:15 <sipa> arioBarzan: yup
884 2013-11-03 18:19:21 <sipa> it's been these since day 1
885 2013-11-03 18:19:24 <sipa> *there
886 2013-11-03 18:21:36 <dobry-den> i believe there are some other examples like that. i have some written down from when i was working on implementing the opcodes
887 2013-11-03 18:22:06 <sipa> dobry-den: it's the only outright mistake i know
888 2013-11-03 18:22:17 <sipa> there are some weirdnesses that may or may not have been intentional
889 2013-11-03 18:22:24 <sipa> and certainly things that could have been done better
890 2013-11-03 18:22:49 <gulli_> I thought though that bitcoind in itself was a wallet
891 2013-11-03 18:22:53 <sipa> yes
892 2013-11-03 18:22:56 <michagogo> It's really kinda annoying that there are hard-forking bugs
893 2013-11-03 18:22:56 <sipa> it is one
894 2013-11-03 18:22:58 <michagogo> gulli_: Indeed
895 2013-11-03 18:22:59 <sipa> but you don't need to use it
896 2013-11-03 18:23:09 <sipa> (did you know you can create an if-then-else-else-else-else-endif?)
897 2013-11-03 18:23:31 <michagogo> gulli_: You can choose not to use it, and as of 0.9 you can also disable it
898 2013-11-03 18:23:50 <michagogo> (by hard-forking bugs, I mean bugs that would be a hard-fork to fix)
899 2013-11-03 18:23:50 <gulli_> so its basically a peice of software then to communicate with the network
900 2013-11-03 18:24:08 <sipa> gulli_: it's a full P2P node, which on itself is something useful
901 2013-11-03 18:24:13 <sipa> it also has a builtin wallet
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906 2013-11-03 18:25:16 <gulli_> and it's not that much of a problem to use bitcoind as a front then, for a small exchange? Just for sending and receiving messages from the network
907 2013-11-03 18:25:36 <dobry-den> it's what bitcoind is
908 2013-11-03 18:25:47 <sipa> whether you're communicating with your own bitcoind or with other nodes, doesn't make a difference to you
909 2013-11-03 18:25:54 <sipa> only that this one you can trust
910 2013-11-03 18:26:16 <gulli_> where can I find more documentation about developing with bitcoind?
911 2013-11-03 18:26:30 <sipa> i am _not_ suggesting you develop with bitcoind
912 2013-11-03 18:26:41 <sipa> i am suggesting you run it in front of whatever else you were thinking of
913 2013-11-03 18:26:58 <sipa> (though you still can use bitcoind's wallet, but it also doesn't scale very well)
914 2013-11-03 18:27:26 <dobry-den> gulli_: check out its RCP API
915 2013-11-03 18:27:31 <sipa> RPC
916 2013-11-03 18:27:36 <dobry-den> ^
917 2013-11-03 18:27:37 <gulli_> So for instance having a scaleable wallet, and relaying all messages through bitcoind
918 2013-11-03 18:27:39 _ingsoc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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920 2013-11-03 18:27:51 <sipa> gulli_: yes
921 2013-11-03 18:28:22 * sipa afk
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923 2013-11-03 18:28:30 <gulli_> ok thanks guys
924 2013-11-03 18:28:43 <gulli_> getting a cleared image now of what needs to be done
925 2013-11-03 18:30:02 <daybyter> create a database for orders, trades, users etc?
926 2013-11-03 18:32:13 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
927 2013-11-03 18:32:49 <gulli_> yup
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934 2013-11-03 18:36:05 <daybyter> mysql?
935 2013-11-03 18:39:07 <gulli_> at the moment yes
936 2013-11-03 18:39:24 <gulli_> but Im thinking about moving to postgresql
937 2013-11-03 18:40:59 Eiii has joined
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940 2013-11-03 18:42:31 <daybyter> postgresql is cool...I like it...
941 2013-11-03 18:43:00 <daybyter> but it's rarely available on cheap webspace...
942 2013-11-03 18:43:00 <gulli_> (y)
943 2013-11-03 18:43:05 <gulli_> thats true
944 2013-11-03 18:43:34 <daybyter> you know cake(php) ?
945 2013-11-03 18:43:38 <sipa> youbdon't want to run an exchange on cheap webspace...
946 2013-11-03 18:43:47 <daybyter> And similar rad frameworks?
947 2013-11-03 18:44:20 <sipa> *you don't
948 2013-11-03 18:44:27 <gulli_> we don't have a cheap one no
949 2013-11-03 18:44:29 <gulli_> wnow
950 2013-11-03 18:44:34 <gulli_> never heard of cake
951 2013-11-03 18:44:54 <lianj> the cake is a lie
952 2013-11-03 18:45:03 <gulli_> lol
953 2013-11-03 18:45:50 <sipa> gulli_: you don't want to run an exchange on anything but your own hardware
954 2013-11-03 18:46:33 GeorgeII has joined
955 2013-11-03 18:47:00 <arioBarzan> Dudes like Satoshi are not expected to miss bugs, but he did in case of OP_CHECKMULTISIG. As Gavin's once said "programmers should not be trusted to test their own code." https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128042.msg1398752#msg1398752
956 2013-11-03 18:48:22 <sipa> arioBarzan: you're preaching to the choir :)
957 2013-11-03 18:48:46 zerogravity has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
958 2013-11-03 18:48:52 <gulli_> it's almost like we are doing it on our own hardware. We have a VPS at a company that we have strong ties to
959 2013-11-03 18:48:56 <Belxjander> arioBarzan: I'm a programmer and I single step debug cycle all changes along wth getting an ignorant user to test the code as well
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969 2013-11-03 18:57:05 <daybyter> gulli_: if you want to create a website quickly, take a look at cake...
970 2013-11-03 18:57:39 <daybyter> http://book.cakephp.org/2.0/en/tutorials-and-examples.html
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976 2013-11-03 19:01:15 <Bubba_bubblegum> hello
977 2013-11-03 19:01:21 <gulli_> I actually have a website set up now, viraltrade.com
978 2013-11-03 19:01:26 <Bubba_bubblegum> can anyone tell me how can i see whats inside a wallet.day
979 2013-11-03 19:01:28 <Bubba_bubblegum> .dat
980 2013-11-03 19:01:37 <Bubba_bubblegum> im trying to find the ECDSA key in the wallet
981 2013-11-03 19:01:47 <Belxjander> Bubba_bubblegum: which client are you using ?
982 2013-11-03 19:01:59 sustrik has joined
983 2013-11-03 19:02:18 <Bubba_bubblegum> bitcoin-qt
984 2013-11-03 19:02:27 <Bubba_bubblegum> i was trying to see it in the source code
985 2013-11-03 19:02:39 reizuki__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
986 2013-11-03 19:04:03 <arioBarzan> Bubba_bubblegum: try pywallet
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991 2013-11-03 19:06:35 <arioBarzan> Bubba_bubblegum: for bitcoin-qt you might find what you're looking for in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/walletdb.cpp
992 2013-11-03 19:07:29 <dobry-den> The bug with difficulty calculation is that it changes in the 2016th block rather than the 2017th block, right?
993 2013-11-03 19:07:46 <dobry-den> i.e. only 2015 blocks are taken into account instead of the specified 2016
994 2013-11-03 19:09:02 reizuki__ has joined
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996 2013-11-03 19:10:02 <gulli_> what would be a good wallet software to use for a small exchange?
997 2013-11-03 19:10:12 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
998 2013-11-03 19:11:39 <dobry-den> nevermind. offby1
999 2013-11-03 19:14:08 <dobry-den> The blockchain shows that difficulty is updated on the 2016th block (lastChangedBlock + 2016) which means that (lastChangedBlock + 2015th block timestamp) are used to recalc difficulty
1000 2013-11-03 19:14:24 <dobry-den> So what's this about the reference client has a bug where only 2015 blocks are taken into account?
1001 2013-11-03 19:15:47 <dobry-den> I guess it's referring to an idx-1 problem in the actual math
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1003 2013-11-03 19:17:08 groglogic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1004 2013-11-03 19:17:36 <Bubba_bubblegum> aptitude install build-essential python-dev python-twisted python-bsddb3
1005 2013-11-03 19:17:55 <Bubba_bubblegum> 'ecdsa' package is not installed, pywallet won't be able to sign/verify messages
1006 2013-11-03 19:17:58 <Bubba_bubblegum> A mandatory option is missing
1007 2013-11-03 19:18:00 <Bubba_bubblegum> i dont get it
1008 2013-11-03 19:18:01 <Bubba_bubblegum> whats the problem?
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1010 2013-11-03 19:20:13 <gulli_> So just to get this straight. I might have some code that creates keys, stores them in a db and such, as well as storing these keys in the wallet. This code then communactes with bitcoind which communcates with the network?
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1040 2013-11-03 19:50:51 <Bubba_bubblegum> 'ecdsa' package is not installed, pywallet won't be able to sign/verify messages
1041 2013-11-03 19:50:54 <Bubba_bubblegum> A mandatory option is missing
1042 2013-11-03 19:50:55 <Bubba_bubblegum> whats the problem?
1043 2013-11-03 19:51:04 <Bubba_bubblegum> im using the pywallet
1044 2013-11-03 19:53:06 <Eliel> like it says, install the ecdsa package for python
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1058 2013-11-03 20:17:30 <melvster> anyone know if there's still a bounty for building a distributed bitcoin exchange?
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1070 2013-11-03 20:27:21 <_alp_> melvester: you referring to the mastercoin one?
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1075 2013-11-03 20:36:15 <melvster> _alp_: that's the one yes ... did anyone solve it?
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1084 2013-11-03 20:43:47 <melvster> should prev_output be 64 bytes or 72? here it's 72 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Genesis_block#cite_note-0
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1088 2013-11-03 20:45:03 <melvster> ah fieldsize 36
1089 2013-11-03 20:46:47 <melvster> "prev_out":{
1090 2013-11-03 20:46:48 <melvster> "hash":"0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000",
1091 2013-11-03 20:46:48 <melvster> "n":4294967295
1092 2013-11-03 20:46:48 <melvster> },
1093 2013-11-03 20:46:55 <melvster> what's N?
1094 2013-11-03 20:47:24 <michagogo> melvster: In a normal transaction, I think that would be the vout index
1095 2013-11-03 20:48:01 <michagogo> that looks to be maxint
1096 2013-11-03 20:48:05 <melvster> michagogo: im looking at the genesis block and it's 0xFFFFFFFF ... what does that mean?
1097 2013-11-03 20:48:50 <melvster> seems to be the same in block 1 2 ...
1098 2013-11-03 20:49:36 <michagogo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions#Generation
1099 2013-11-03 20:50:19 <melvster> ah thanks!
1100 2013-11-03 20:53:26 <michagogo> warren: ping
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1106 2013-11-03 20:58:45 <michagogo> war_ren: unping
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1142 2013-11-03 21:37:52 <RedEmerald> I'm having trouble getting bitcoind built on Mavericks. Has anyone else had luck? http://pastebin.com/rNu7eqs8
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1148 2013-11-03 21:51:17 <denisx> RedEmerald: what version is your boost lib?
1149 2013-11-03 21:51:29 <RedEmerald> whatever brew's latest is. one sec
1150 2013-11-03 21:51:44 <RedEmerald> boost-1.54.0
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1152 2013-11-03 21:56:17 <RedEmerald> let me know if theres anything else you need
1153 2013-11-03 21:56:39 <RedEmerald> I added my comments to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3132
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1226 2013-11-03 23:36:15 <melvster> anyone know what's the maximum coinbase length?
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1228 2013-11-03 23:37:26 <sipa> 100 bytes
1229 2013-11-03 23:37:28 dervos has quit (Quit: dervos)
1230 2013-11-03 23:37:34 <melvster> sipa:thanks
1231 2013-11-03 23:37:34 <sipa> hard rule
1232 2013-11-03 23:38:23 Bjander has quit (Quit: Cellphone IRC... the worst kind...)
1233 2013-11-03 23:38:27 <melvster> sipa: where does the block height go? is it the first entry? I know there is also target and extranonce and message?
1234 2013-11-03 23:39:10 <phantomcircuit> melvster, first bytes
1235 2013-11-03 23:39:16 <melvster> ty
1236 2013-11-03 23:39:18 <sipa> you're mixing protocol layers
1237 2013-11-03 23:39:29 <melvster> sipa: sorry, just trying to understand coinbase
1238 2013-11-03 23:39:33 OrP has joined
1239 2013-11-03 23:39:33 <sipa> the target is in the block header, encoded as nBits
1240 2013-11-03 23:39:35 mologie_ has joined
1241 2013-11-03 23:39:38 <melvster> yes i know
1242 2013-11-03 23:39:41 grau has joined
1243 2013-11-03 23:39:42 <sipa> the extranonce doesn't exist
1244 2013-11-03 23:39:57 <sipa> it's just what miners call what extra garbage they put in the coinbase
1245 2013-11-03 23:40:08 <sipa> but the coinbase is just bytes
1246 2013-11-03 23:40:19 <sipa> what you put in it doesn't matter
1247 2013-11-03 23:40:37 <sipa> except that since BIP34, it must start with a push of the height
1248 2013-11-03 23:40:59 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1249 2013-11-03 23:41:19 <melvster> got it thanks
1250 2013-11-03 23:41:28 <melvster> so more like a comment
1251 2013-11-03 23:41:34 <melvster> but people use it nonetheless
1252 2013-11-03 23:41:43 <melvster> of course the genesis block was different
1253 2013-11-03 23:41:47 <sipa> it's not a comment
1254 2013-11-03 23:41:58 <melvster> because it proved that satoshi didnt premine
1255 2013-11-03 23:42:05 <melvster> using the message
1256 2013-11-03 23:42:07 <sipa> the height in the coinbase makes transactions unique
1257 2013-11-03 23:42:24 <sipa> and the extranonce is used as an extra nonce :)
1258 2013-11-03 23:43:31 <melvster> 100 bytes that's good to know ...
1259 2013-11-03 23:43:35 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1260 2013-11-03 23:43:45 <sipa> 96 left :p
1261 2013-11-03 23:44:00 <melvster> ive noticed some bytes are used to put in the target too
1262 2013-11-03 23:44:06 <melvster> eg the very first blocks
1263 2013-11-03 23:44:13 <sipa> initially, indeed
1264 2013-11-03 23:44:16 <sipa> no idea why
1265 2013-11-03 23:44:49 <melvster> sipa: i think it's so that the genesis transaction can generate the block header ... so do they not do that anymore?
1266 2013-11-03 23:45:44 <melvster> (when i say target i mean nbits of course)
1267 2013-11-03 23:48:52 <sipa> i have no idea what you mean>
1268 2013-11-03 23:49:27 TD has joined
1269 2013-11-03 23:49:32 <sipa> the genesis block's coinbase infuences the block header, through the merkle root
1270 2013-11-03 23:49:38 <sipa> but that is the case for every block
1271 2013-11-03 23:50:19 <melvster> sipa: sure it does, but it's possible to generate the block header from *only* the transaction
1272 2013-11-03 23:50:30 <melvster> because the target is there
1273 2013-11-03 23:50:40 <melvster> without out of band knowledge
1274 2013-11-03 23:50:44 deepc0re has quit (Quit: deepc0re)
1275 2013-11-03 23:51:10 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1276 2013-11-03 23:51:19 <sipa> you still need to know the previous block's hash
1277 2013-11-03 23:51:24 <sipa> and the block's transactions
1278 2013-11-03 23:51:30 <sipa> and the nonce
1279 2013-11-03 23:51:33 ekkis has joined
1280 2013-11-03 23:51:34 <sipa> and the timestamp
1281 2013-11-03 23:51:36 <sipa> and the version
1282 2013-11-03 23:51:53 <melvster> there is no previous block for genesis ... so that's solved
1283 2013-11-03 23:51:54 <ekkis> evening everyone, the description for the .SendToAddress() method contains two "comment" fields. of what use are these fields?
1284 2013-11-03 23:52:04 <sipa> melvster: the genesis is set in stone
1285 2013-11-03 23:52:09 <sipa> melvster: it could have been anything, really
1286 2013-11-03 23:52:13 <sipa> it's not even validated
1287 2013-11-03 23:52:40 <sipa> i truly i have no idea why the nBits were put in the coinbase
1288 2013-11-03 23:53:02 <sipa> but it certainly doesn't help reconstructing anything
1289 2013-11-03 23:53:08 <sipa> you need to know the genesis block in any case
1290 2013-11-03 23:53:20 deepc0re has joined
1291 2013-11-03 23:53:27 <sipa> ekkis: ancient history
1292 2013-11-03 23:53:45 mintyFresh has joined
1293 2013-11-03 23:54:10 <sipa> ekkis: once upon a time, bitcoin had send-to-IP transactions, which where negotiated directly between sender and receiver
1294 2013-11-03 23:54:24 <sipa> ekkis: and you could attach comments to it, which would end up on the other side's walet
1295 2013-11-03 23:54:40 <sipa> but pay-to-IP was insecure and flawed in other ways
1296 2013-11-03 23:55:09 <sipa> ekkis: the memo field in the payment protocol has a similar function
1297 2013-11-03 23:55:47 <melvster> sipa: the first block can be derived from the genesis transaction as it contains complete information ( prevBlock = 0, merkleroot = hash, nbits = nbits, version = version, and the nonce/timestamp you mine)
1298 2013-11-03 23:56:15 <sipa> melvster: it doesn't contain the time, and it's pointless anyway
1299 2013-11-03 23:56:28 <sipa> the genesis block is set by the rules
1300 2013-11-03 23:56:40 hnz has joined
1301 2013-11-03 23:56:46 <sipa> you seem to be looking for patterns where there is no use for them :)
1302 2013-11-03 23:57:17 pecket has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1303 2013-11-03 23:57:18 <sipa> also, nBits of the genesis block are already set by the rules of the system too
1304 2013-11-03 23:57:37 <sipa> or at least of all later blocks
1305 2013-11-03 23:57:44 Evilmax has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1306 2013-11-03 23:57:54 <sipa> the genesis block is never validated, it's just inserted in the block database at bootstrap time
1307 2013-11-03 23:58:10 <ekkis> sipa: oh? wild. so the parameters are now obsolete and values passed are just discarded?
1308 2013-11-03 23:58:14 <melvster> sipa: you could well be right, im just speculating as to why satoshi put it there ... he seemed to do most things for a reason :)
1309 2013-11-03 23:58:28 <sipa> ekkis: they're still stored in your wallet
1310 2013-11-03 23:58:31 <sipa> ekkis: but nowhere else
1311 2013-11-03 23:58:37 <sipa> melvster: i don't think that's t
1312 2013-11-03 23:58:39 Bkil has joined
1313 2013-11-03 23:58:40 <sipa> he reason