1 2013-11-04 00:00:04 <ekkis> hmm? ok. I just noticed that sendtoaddress() takes a float? I'm using c# and am wondering if that's an implementation issue? floats have rounding issues...
2 2013-11-04 00:00:28 <sipa> ekkis: ieee 754 doubles have enough precision to accurate round to a satoshi
3 2013-11-04 00:00:38 <sipa> but yes, that is a very good thing to be worried about
4 2013-11-04 00:00:53 <sipa> so internally, always use satoshis, and just convert to float to pass to bitcoind
5 2013-11-04 00:01:10 <sipa> melvster: also note that bitcoind/wxbitcoin up to some point not too long ago, always put nBits in coinbases
6 2013-11-04 00:01:22 <melvster> oh interesting
7 2013-11-04 00:01:34 <sipa> until some 0.3 or 0.4 version i guess
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11 2013-11-04 00:02:29 <ekkis> sipa: something I'll need to bring up to the implementer of bitnet.client
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22 2013-11-04 00:11:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: i wonder whether we still need the BIP30 rule enforcement
23 2013-11-04 00:11:58 <sipa> as BIP34 makes it impossible to exploit
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25 2013-11-04 00:12:38 <sipa> unless there exists a pre-BIP34 block which starts with something that could be interpreted as the push of a future block height
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38 2013-11-04 00:22:23 <ekkis> sipa: in fact, it seems to me I should be using a decimal with 8 digits instead of a double
39 2013-11-04 00:22:43 <ekkis> sipa: but I'm wondering what happens when we go into fractions of a satoshi
40 2013-11-04 00:23:04 <ekkis> I've read that the protocol supports further divisions but I'm not sure how I should handle it
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43 2013-11-04 00:25:35 <ekkis> I remember seeing page with advice for proper handling of datatypes for bitcoin projects...
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45 2013-11-04 00:26:29 <Luke-Jr> ekkis: you should be storing 64-bit integers in raw amount, not BTC
46 2013-11-04 00:26:40 <Luke-Jr> ekkis: so if you have BTC, do *1e8 and round it
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48 2013-11-04 00:27:01 <Jason> Luke-Jr: heya. how's it going?
49 2013-11-04 00:27:05 <Luke-Jr> the protocol doesn't support further divisions; if you do, then do satoshis as a decimal type
50 2013-11-04 00:27:09 <Luke-Jr> Jason: ok
51 2013-11-04 00:27:25 <Jason> Luke-Jr: i've got a question for you if you've got a minute, although I think you just answered my question
52 2013-11-04 00:27:41 <ekkis> Luke-Jr: I see? yes, I just found it: Proper Money Handling (JSON-RPC)
53 2013-11-04 00:27:47 <Jason> Luke-Jr: proper money handling: i'm supposed to multiply the amount I wish to send via bitcoind's API by 1e8?
54 2013-11-04 00:28:19 <melvster> i think btc would have to go up in value quite a lot before divisions are added to the protocol ...
55 2013-11-04 00:28:28 <melvster> but it's theoretically possible
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57 2013-11-04 00:28:29 <ekkis> Luke-Jr: I'm using the bitnet.client library from c# and it was coded to represent amount as floats. I want to patch it but wasn't sure what datatype I should be using
58 2013-11-04 00:28:31 <Jason> >>> 0.00000001*1e8
59 2013-11-04 00:28:31 <Jason> 1.0
60 2013-11-04 00:28:34 <Jason> yeah?
61 2013-11-04 00:28:45 <melvster> iirc gavin said so once
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64 2013-11-04 00:30:59 <sipa> melvster: everything is theoretically possible
65 2013-11-04 00:31:19 <sipa> i find the claim that the protocol can be upgraded to support more digits misleading
66 2013-11-04 00:31:37 <sipa> of course it can, just as it can be upgraded to be a wrapper around PayPal
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68 2013-11-04 00:31:44 <sipa> well, "upgraded"
69 2013-11-04 00:32:01 <ekkis> sipa: shite? sql server doesn't store unsigned 64-bit integers? I think I'll go with decimals
70 2013-11-04 00:32:14 <sipa> ekkis: sounds like the way to go
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72 2013-11-04 00:32:41 <Luke-Jr> melvster: it's theoretically possible, in the form of making a new "altcoin" that continues the previous blockchain
73 2013-11-04 00:33:19 <Luke-Jr> ekkis: why would you ever use MS SQL?
74 2013-11-04 00:33:27 <Jason> lol
75 2013-11-04 00:34:09 <Arnavion> What's wrong with MS SQL?
76 2013-11-04 00:34:24 <Luke-Jr> it's MS?
77 2013-11-04 00:34:28 <sipa> take it elsewhere before this becomes a flamewar
78 2013-11-04 00:34:29 <sipa> please
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80 2013-11-04 00:34:36 <Luke-Jr> and as he just said, it doesn't have int64
81 2013-11-04 00:34:55 <Arnavion> Of course it does
82 2013-11-04 00:35:03 <Arnavion> What database doesn't have a 64-bit int
83 2013-11-04 00:35:10 <Luke-Jr> ekkis says MS SQL doesn't.
84 2013-11-04 00:35:56 <Arnavion> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms187745(v=sql.105).aspx
85 2013-11-04 00:36:03 <sipa> can you take this to #mssql?
86 2013-11-04 00:36:03 <Arnavion> Notice first entry
87 2013-11-04 00:36:07 <Arnavion> Sorry
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95 2013-11-04 00:50:24 <ekkis> Luke-Jr: SQL Server is a natural extension of an MVC app written in .net
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97 2013-11-04 00:51:20 <ekkis> Luke-Jr: no, what I said was it doesn't have an [unsigned] 64-bit int
98 2013-11-04 00:52:58 <ekkis> incidentally? I'm getting a (500) Internal Server Error from the server when I run it in test mode? and I don't see where logs are kept. thoughts anyone?
99 2013-11-04 00:53:27 <ekkis> incidentally, I'm not running bitcoind but bitcoin-qt...
100 2013-11-04 00:53:39 <ekkis> and it seemed to be working fine when I was running it in production mode
101 2013-11-04 00:54:27 <ekkis> I've changed the port to 18332 and the server seems to be answering but when I try to send coins I get that error
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106 2013-11-04 00:56:17 <ekkis> ah? I figured it out? the error isn't very helpful but it's my bad
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109 2013-11-04 00:57:51 <ekkis> whoa? it works. my first bitcoin payment. yea!!
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133 2013-11-04 01:37:32 <Luke-Jr> ekkis: it doesn't need to be unsigned
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152 2013-11-04 02:06:58 <gulli> Anyone developing in java have any experience in using url POST instead of JSONRPC to talk to bitcoind?
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157 2013-11-04 02:09:41 <SomeoneWeird> gulli, ... i don't think you can
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163 2013-11-04 02:11:33 <gulli> hmm
164 2013-11-04 02:11:34 <gulli> says here you can
165 2013-11-04 02:11:35 <gulli> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_%28JSON-RPC%29
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178 2013-11-04 02:22:39 <gulli> This just seems so stupid, its so easy to find easy and good JSONRPC libraries for almost any common programming language except Java
179 2013-11-04 02:23:02 <gulli> If you want it for java its almost always a maven project with a billion dependecies
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208 2013-11-04 03:05:30 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: unfortunately, that vulnerability seems to be a real possibility
209 2013-11-04 03:05:50 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: what vulnerability? selfish mining?
210 2013-11-04 03:06:18 <Luke-Jr> yes
211 2013-11-04 03:06:26 <Luke-Jr> also, don't we have a responsible disclosure page on bitcoin.org? :/
212 2013-11-04 03:06:49 <gavinandresen> mmm. I want to see what the bitcoin-wizards think when they wake up.
213 2013-11-04 03:07:36 <SomeoneWeird> which vuln is this?
214 2013-11-04 03:07:45 <Luke-Jr> http://arxiv.org/abs/1311.0243
215 2013-11-04 03:08:26 <warren> static const int PROTOCOL_VERSION = 70001;
216 2013-11-04 03:08:46 <warren> sizeof() of that int changes depending on 32bit or 64bit?
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218 2013-11-04 03:08:57 <gavinandresen> The scheme smells like a version of the gambler's ruin "can't lose" scheme to me, too, but I haven't thought hard about it yet.
219 2013-11-04 03:09:00 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr, interesting
220 2013-11-04 03:09:00 dgolds has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
221 2013-11-04 03:09:23 <gavinandresen> (martingale strategy for withholding blocks....)
222 2013-11-04 03:11:07 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: you're possibly right, but I think it needs more consideration before it's ruled out
223 2013-11-04 03:11:40 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: agreed. Although the hand-wavy "we'll just Sybil the network to keep the honest blocks from propagating" seems wrong
224 2013-11-04 03:11:48 <Luke-Jr> I guess I should check if anyone else got an advance disclosure privately, before I send the author a rant for not following responsible disclosure practices..
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227 2013-11-04 03:12:12 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: ⦠given that pools/miners have a very strong incentive to be well-connected to each other
228 2013-11-04 03:12:20 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: well, they might not be able to sybil it, but they could certainly target big pools with their block broadcasts first
229 2013-11-04 03:12:43 <Luke-Jr> which, yeah, big miners already do for fair blocks
230 2013-11-04 03:12:46 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: right, but EVERYBODY wants to do that
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232 2013-11-04 03:15:04 <Luke-Jr> even if this is successful, I'm not sure it's worth a hardfork to fix
233 2013-11-04 03:15:30 <Luke-Jr> eg, similar to the block withholding exploit, or even the centralised pool problem
234 2013-11-04 03:15:50 <gavinandresen> they didn't propose a hardfork to fix, just a simple policy change of "mine on random chain" instead of "mine on first-seen chain"
235 2013-11-04 03:16:06 <Luke-Jr> not sure that changes anything though
236 2013-11-04 03:16:13 <gavinandresen> they claim it does.
237 2013-11-04 03:16:18 <Luke-Jr> first-seen is already essentially random in a race
238 2013-11-04 03:16:32 <Luke-Jr> and if the good miners are interconnected, first-seen is *better* than random
239 2013-11-04 03:16:47 <gavinandresen> agreed. All of which is why I think they're just wrong.
240 2013-11-04 03:17:33 * BlueMatt agrees with the "they're just wrong" sentiment
241 2013-11-04 03:17:54 <BlueMatt> though I do believe we should more actively encourage good peering for miners
242 2013-11-04 03:18:35 <BlueMatt> (which would take their argument's "maybe you have a small point" to "you're argument is invalid")
243 2013-11-04 03:18:38 <BlueMatt> at least the way I read it
244 2013-11-04 03:18:52 <gavinandresen> That was the most interesting result from the Decker/Wattenhofer paper on Information Propagation, in my opinion: they single-handedly cut the orphan rate in half by decreasing block propagationt hops
245 2013-11-04 03:19:17 <BlueMatt> agreed
246 2013-11-04 03:19:23 <gavinandresen> That's a trivial defense against a Sybil attack, too....
247 2013-11-04 03:19:31 <BlueMatt> yep
248 2013-11-04 03:19:41 <BlueMatt> is anyone actively working on this
249 2013-11-04 03:20:00 * BlueMatt is very seriously considering taking up the project of setting up a peering network
250 2013-11-04 03:20:11 <BlueMatt> with merchant+mining peers/etc
251 2013-11-04 03:20:12 <gavinandresen> Dunno. Blockchain.info was connecting to everything last I heard....
252 2013-11-04 03:20:19 <BlueMatt> meh, thats not the point
253 2013-11-04 03:20:31 <warren> connecting and relaying?
254 2013-11-04 03:20:35 <warren> or just connecting?
255 2013-11-04 03:20:37 <gavinandresen> dunno
256 2013-11-04 03:20:42 <BlueMatt> one party connecting to all public nodes doesn't help, really
257 2013-11-04 03:20:52 <BlueMatt> when lots of merchants have nodes that only make outbound connections
258 2013-11-04 03:21:19 <BlueMatt> it may help pools that likely have listening nodes peered with their mining nodes, but still
259 2013-11-04 03:21:19 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3180 <---- btw, this commit supposedly reduces propagation latency and would help network-wide orphans too.
260 2013-11-04 03:21:32 <warren> it also makes headers first much faster
261 2013-11-04 03:21:50 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
262 2013-11-04 03:22:46 <gavinandresen> Mmm. That reminds me, I wrote down a couple of potential TODOs after reading the Decker/Wattenhofer paperâ¦.
263 2013-11-04 03:23:22 <gavinandresen> I'll open issues before I forget again
264 2013-11-04 03:23:24 * BlueMatt notes that the next foundation grant round wont be for a while and thinks about where to setup relaying nodes...
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266 2013-11-04 03:24:23 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: relaying inside the Amazon cloud would be nifty. Very cheap bandwidth from datacenter to datacenter last I looked....
267 2013-11-04 03:25:46 <warren> BlueMatt: I've been looking at the question of "how cheap can randomly placed, ultra-low power disablewallet relay node hardware be"
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269 2013-11-04 03:27:47 <BlueMatt> warren: I was thinking bitcoind is overkill...my plan was to have one bitcoind which does message verification and then a bunch of leightweight relay nodes that do no verification once they've received the all-good from the verifier
270 2013-11-04 03:27:48 <warren> BlueMatt: headless ARM with enough RAM and storage to last several years, with bitcoind built to minimize disk churn to avoid wearing down the flash rewrite cycles
271 2013-11-04 03:28:08 <warren> eh.... centralized verification?
272 2013-11-04 03:28:13 <warren> sounds dangerous
273 2013-11-04 03:28:24 <BlueMatt> hardware requirements isnt the issue, you ideally want to minimize latency as much as possible and create nodes which can serve a shitton of clients with essentially no cpu
274 2013-11-04 03:28:43 <warren> after pruning happens, storage is a non-issue, then it's a matter of RAM for UTXO
275 2013-11-04 03:28:44 <BlueMatt> warren: well, all the peers do their own verification as well, but the relay network will do verification only once then relay to many
276 2013-11-04 03:29:30 <BlueMatt> ie the design I was thinking is: merchants/pool ops peer with some set of relay nodes. Those nodes just forward data around as much as possible after they have confirmed the data is good
277 2013-11-04 03:29:43 alusion has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
278 2013-11-04 03:29:47 <BlueMatt> and then you get more relay nodes which are public and relay data around to anyone who wants to put an addnode in their conf
279 2013-11-04 03:29:52 <BlueMatt> (ie p2pool-style miners)
280 2013-11-04 03:30:56 <groglogic> gavinadresen: this one i assume? http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/49318d3f56c1d525aabf7fda78b23fc0/P2P2013_041.pdf
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282 2013-11-04 03:32:11 <jedunnigan> there is also http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/848064fa2e80f88a57aef43d7d5956c6/P2P2013_093.pdf
283 2013-11-04 03:33:21 <warren> phantomcircuit: btw, rebase is requested on your PR
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285 2013-11-04 03:34:50 <gavinandresen> groglogic: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3195
286 2013-11-04 03:36:48 <gavinandresen> jedunnigan: I've actually been working on better support for "snack machine payments" the last few days....
287 2013-11-04 03:37:06 <jedunnigan> gavinandresen: exciting!
288 2013-11-04 03:37:17 <gavinandresen> ⦠starting with tools that let me easily create -regtest-mode double-spends
289 2013-11-04 03:37:19 <jedunnigan> i remmeber you mentioning that on the mailing list a little while ago
290 2013-11-04 03:38:10 kis has joined
291 2013-11-04 03:38:57 rolme has joined
292 2013-11-04 03:41:26 <BlueMatt> hah, someone on github cleverly registered with satoshi's email and is now listed as the 5th top contributor on http://bitcoin.org/en/development
293 2013-11-04 03:41:42 Edward_Black has quit (Quit: ow ow ow...)
294 2013-11-04 03:41:42 <BlueMatt> either that or saracen is satoshi and very seriously fucked up on the privacy front...
295 2013-11-04 03:42:40 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
296 2013-11-04 03:43:53 <groglogic> gavinadresen: i see thanks. and i'll read that paper. been getting deeper into btc lately
297 2013-11-04 03:44:30 Subo1977_ has joined
298 2013-11-04 03:45:47 <groglogic> BlueMatt: i traced his posts. they're coming from an IP inside ... inside... (wait for it)... "nsa.gov" ? anybody know what that is? (kidding, kidding)
299 2013-11-04 03:47:41 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
300 2013-11-04 03:48:27 <fanquake> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits?author=saracen Surely there would be more commits if he's taken over satoshi's alias on github? Or does GitHub's history cut off after 3 years
301 2013-11-04 03:49:09 <BlueMatt> thats cut off https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/master?page=134
302 2013-11-04 03:50:20 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, lol that's hilarious
303 2013-11-04 03:50:22 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
304 2013-11-04 03:50:26 <fanquake> hmm, curious that it only lists those few commits.
305 2013-11-04 03:50:48 designdream has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
306 2013-11-04 03:50:52 <phantomcircuit> warren, rebase against master or squash the commits?
307 2013-11-04 03:51:38 JZavala has joined
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309 2013-11-04 03:52:10 <fanquake> That contributing feature must only take into account a certain amount of history, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits?author=sirius-m gives nothing.
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331 2013-11-04 04:19:05 <warren> phantomcircuit: looks like both
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336 2013-11-04 04:28:40 <phantomcircuit> warren, uh i think i did that right
337 2013-11-04 04:28:42 <phantomcircuit> can you check
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340 2013-11-04 04:32:25 <phantomcircuit> sipa, also yes
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361 2013-11-04 05:09:41 <gmaxwell> We've discussed that delayed announcement stuff specifically before and concluded it wasn't interesting (it had negative expectation until the delaying clique was very large), perhaps we (I) got the analysis wrong or they've thought up some kink we missed, I'll have to go read the paper, but likely won't have time to for a few days.
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365 2013-11-04 05:11:24 * Luke-Jr debates whether to backport the 2 commits that fix a kernel panic he's been having a lot, or to just suffer it until 3.12 is out
366 2013-11-04 05:11:26 Polyatomic has joined
367 2013-11-04 05:11:50 crank has joined
368 2013-11-04 05:12:10 * Luke-Jr decides to suffer it to help debug another kernel bug <.<
369 2013-11-04 05:12:26 <Diablo-D3> 3.12 is final now isnt it?
370 2013-11-04 05:12:30 <BlueMatt> 3.12 is out
371 2013-11-04 05:13:10 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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375 2013-11-04 05:17:42 <warren> phantomcircuit: sorry, I didn't have a copy of the older version, you still have it?
376 2013-11-04 05:18:54 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
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378 2013-11-04 05:20:30 <gmaxwell> okay, I skimmed the paper, and the assumption it makes that I hadn't considered before is that the selfish miner could successfully sybil the network and delay the propagation of other blocks (even better: have other blocks trigger propagating their selfish blocks instead)
379 2013-11-04 05:20:54 <gmaxwell> This is probably worth considering carefully, but it falls short of their headline claim.
380 2013-11-04 05:22:05 * BlueMatt just mailed poolops and a few merchants/exchanges who I could easily find an email for to setup a higher speed relay network for them
381 2013-11-04 05:22:08 <BlueMatt> (and other miners)
382 2013-11-04 05:22:14 <gmaxwell> Their suggested 'fix' doesn't inspire confidence in me, since I've previously run simulations with strategies other than prefer earliest block, and was able to see big increases in the distributions of reorgs in a simulated network (though a somewhat trivial one, e.g. one with two equally powerful miners)
383 2013-11-04 05:22:19 <BlueMatt> so, hopefully the sybil threat is essentially nothing
384 2013-11-04 05:22:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, the policy of preferring anything but first-seen seems broken to me
385 2013-11-04 05:22:51 <gmaxwell> Well I think in general we need to improve sybil security. We also could use some monitoring of orphans to watch for attacks like this happening (it would create a huge orphan rate)
386 2013-11-04 05:23:05 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
387 2013-11-04 05:23:07 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, link?
388 2013-11-04 05:23:23 <BlueMatt> yes, monitoring would be nice, but I havent really seen a good recommendation for how to address the network shortcomings we see today
389 2013-11-04 05:23:23 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: under a model that doesn't include sybils, random preference can remove some of the disincentive to delaying announcements in fact.
390 2013-11-04 05:24:04 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, I was thinking that as I skimmed the paper
391 2013-11-04 05:24:06 <gmaxwell> They sounded really confident in their fix but unless I missed a page they don't seem to provide analysis which would inspire that kind of confidence in me.
392 2013-11-04 05:25:01 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: http://arxiv.org/abs/1311.0243
393 2013-11-04 05:25:16 <gmaxwell> I'm at IETF all week and so probably can't steal too much time to think very hard about this.
394 2013-11-04 05:25:37 <gmaxwell> In the short term it would be a good reason to go beef up the anti-sybil defenses between miners.
395 2013-11-04 05:26:46 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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398 2013-11-04 05:29:37 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, "The Bitcoin network runs at over 42 Ã 1018 FLOPS"
399 2013-11-04 05:29:39 <phantomcircuit> >.>
400 2013-11-04 05:29:45 <phantomcircuit> the bitcoin network runs at 0 FLOPS
401 2013-11-04 05:29:57 <gmaxwell> at least they didn't cite the number of html pages per second. :P
402 2013-11-04 05:29:58 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
403 2013-11-04 05:30:18 <gmaxwell> in any case from 50,000 ft the details actually relevant to their work (e.g. block preference) appeared right.
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409 2013-11-04 05:36:42 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the first thing i notice is that they assume there is only a single selfish pool
410 2013-11-04 05:37:01 <phantomcircuit> i suspect the strategy falls apart if there are two roughly equal sized pools running it
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415 2013-11-04 05:43:43 <Luke-Jr> well, now I'm questioning whether it's actually a kernel bug O.o
416 2013-11-04 05:43:59 <Luke-Jr> 100% of the time I turn my new USB 3 hub on, it panics
417 2013-11-04 05:44:04 <Luke-Jr> (as of tonight)
418 2013-11-04 05:44:07 debiantoruser has joined
419 2013-11-04 05:44:57 <Luke-Jr> re 3.12 being out, not for Gentoo yet it seems >_<
420 2013-11-04 05:45:13 * groglogic actually watched the film Sybil, but must go read about meaning of a sybil attack (?)
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422 2013-11-04 05:45:39 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, the assertion that γ=1 is simply incorrect
423 2013-11-04 05:45:40 <BlueMatt> groglogic: get a node on its own network with just you
424 2013-11-04 05:46:01 <phantomcircuit> most of the pools are already connecting to lots and lots of peers
425 2013-11-04 05:46:05 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: I really only briefly skimmed it, what is γ?
426 2013-11-04 05:46:07 <phantomcircuit> far more than 8
427 2013-11-04 05:46:09 <BlueMatt> ahh
428 2013-11-04 05:46:23 <BlueMatt> yes, I expect most pools already have some private peering setup
429 2013-11-04 05:46:27 <BlueMatt> s/expect/hope/
430 2013-11-04 05:46:31 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, sorry it's the ratio of miners who see the attackers block first
431 2013-11-04 05:46:34 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: but if you start a ten million fake nodes then the chances of all yours being fake ones can be good even if you connect to many.
432 2013-11-04 05:46:38 Lazue has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
433 2013-11-04 05:47:08 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sure but ten million fake nodes would cost you about 10m usd/month
434 2013-11-04 05:47:34 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: in any case, if an attacker can partition the network they can perform more powerful attacks. E.g. partition the network and to make it mine two forks which you place orthorgonal transactions in.
435 2013-11-04 05:47:47 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, exactly
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437 2013-11-04 05:48:01 <phantomcircuit> well except they're just talking about slowing down propagation
438 2013-11-04 05:48:05 <phantomcircuit> not stopping it entirely
439 2013-11-04 05:48:29 <phantomcircuit> that being said i believe their suggested fix would actually make the problem worse
440 2013-11-04 05:48:39 <phantomcircuit> which is kind of funny
441 2013-11-04 05:48:57 <gmaxwell> So I think the correct response to this is to reevaluate and improve our syb strength first, improve orphan monitoring second, and perhaps consider forwaring 'fast orphans' third. ... but I don't think we should rapidly change to something other than an initial preference, because doing so will actually enable this attack even absent sybils. (but the attack it enables won't work well with low hashpower)
442 2013-11-04 05:49:17 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: not just slowing, but instead they use their sybs to replace 'honest' blocks with selfish ones.
443 2013-11-04 05:49:33 <gmaxwell> so that delaying your block doesn't get you orphaned (very much).
444 2013-11-04 05:50:03 <phantomcircuit> yeah
445 2013-11-04 05:50:14 <groglogic> BlueMatt: k
446 2013-11-04 05:51:19 <gmaxwell> one way to actually prevent syb attacks would be for addr messages to be placed in coinbases.
447 2013-11-04 05:52:11 Bjander has joined
448 2013-11-04 05:52:21 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well certainly the easiest thing is to get the larger pools peering
449 2013-11-04 05:53:28 <phantomcircuit> im sure that they're not directly peered but are probably a much shorter distance from each other than the network would imply
450 2013-11-04 05:53:35 <gmaxwell> they don't all want to share IPs. because of dos attacking each other. but e.g. some non-mining parties could help out.
451 2013-11-04 05:53:41 <gmaxwell> oh sure, there is a lot of peering.
452 2013-11-04 05:55:44 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: eh, why are you so sure we're not directly peered?
453 2013-11-04 05:55:55 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, lazyness
454 2013-11-04 05:56:02 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: well, you're wrong.. :p
455 2013-11-04 05:56:12 <phantomcircuit> shrug
456 2013-11-04 05:56:52 <phantomcircuit> i've got a loverly node that connects to every peer and pushes blocks it finds
457 2013-11-04 05:57:09 <phantomcircuit> (it's uh... only slightly tested with production data)
458 2013-11-04 05:58:42 <phantomcircuit> someone sent me a tip for my commit
459 2013-11-04 05:58:43 <phantomcircuit> 0.00077080 É
460 2013-11-04 05:58:44 <phantomcircuit> im rich
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472 2013-11-04 06:14:26 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324413.new#new might want to comment here
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479 2013-11-04 06:19:55 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it should be possible to make bfgminer if it has multiple pools or a bitcoind available detect if its currently mining a fork. Might be an additional useful countermeasure here... as pools engaging in this could be detected by virtue of prev not being known to other nodes outside of the pool.
480 2013-11-04 06:20:25 Alina-malina has joined
481 2013-11-04 06:21:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc it already does something like that
482 2013-11-04 06:21:52 handle_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
483 2013-11-04 06:21:59 <gmaxwell> it detects it replacing the prior chain, but I don't think it detect the nonpublication.
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487 2013-11-04 06:22:35 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, some day I plan to have BFGMiner map out the blockchain internally as it mines it so it can be more intelligent with this kind of thing
488 2013-11-04 06:23:08 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, actually i think that the current connection limit could be reasonably moved from 128 to 256
489 2013-11-04 06:23:28 <phantomcircuit> (actually it could be increased much beyond that but you'd have issues with fileno limits)
490 2013-11-04 06:24:01 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im not sure i really have anything to add beyond what you've said
491 2013-11-04 06:24:17 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: you'd lol at Window's select() implementation
492 2013-11-04 06:24:27 <phantomcircuit> im sure i would
493 2013-11-04 06:24:31 <Luke-Jr> or rather, FD_ISSET and co
494 2013-11-04 06:24:41 <gmaxwell> I think a small number of higher order nodes do a lot to make partitioning hard.
495 2013-11-04 06:25:00 <gmaxwell> They don't even need to be bitcoind forwarders... they could be POW-validity-only checkers.
496 2013-11-04 06:25:02 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: it maintains an array of sockets, and adding a new socket to the list iterates over everything already in the list..
497 2013-11-04 06:25:34 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, 3.12 done compiling, time to reboot..
498 2013-11-04 06:25:38 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you could comment about your block pusher stuff.
499 2013-11-04 06:25:47 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well i have at least one node in python that basically just forwards everything blindly
500 2013-11-04 06:26:08 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, well, that it will get DOS banned is annoying.
501 2013-11-04 06:26:11 <phantomcircuit> it's behind proper ddos protection and would likely be able to handle tens of thousands of users
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503 2013-11-04 06:26:41 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i could just have it forward to a local bitcoind and then only forward things that bitcoind sends back to it on another connection
504 2013-11-04 06:26:57 <phantomcircuit> currently it's pretty dumb but that's easy enough to fix
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507 2013-11-04 06:30:30 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, bitcoind connection multiplyer.
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539 2013-11-04 06:56:01 <HaltingState> sipa, public/private; q,Q; n,N; Q*n = N*q? WTF?
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556 2013-11-04 07:18:01 <warren> https://github.com/forrestv/p2pool/issues/137 accidental protocol breakage in p2pool https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324002.0 same error as something else on the network causing other errors.
557 2013-11-04 07:18:13 <warren> just a FYI
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581 2013-11-04 07:35:13 <swulf--> is nChainWork the sole deciding factor on which chain fork is considered active/best, assuming all the blocks in both forks passed verification tests?
582 2013-11-04 07:37:33 OrP has joined
583 2013-11-04 07:37:53 <gmaxwell> not quite, the first heard best valid chain is the one considered active. (e.g. it'll only move to another one if its has more work, not a tie)
584 2013-11-04 07:38:32 <swulf--> so theoretically two clients who got different blocks (same height, same difficulty) could have a different view of the world?
585 2013-11-04 07:38:43 <gmaxwell> sure.
586 2013-11-04 07:38:55 <gmaxwell> At least for a finite amount of time.
587 2013-11-04 07:38:57 <swulf--> yeah
588 2013-11-04 07:39:17 <gmaxwell> finiteness of the speed of light demands it be so in any case. :)
589 2013-11-04 07:39:24 <swulf--> makes sense -
590 2013-11-04 07:39:46 <swulf--> and since the target is only adjusted every so many blocks, the two clients could actually get off by a number of blocks?
591 2013-11-04 07:40:22 <lianj> only if both chain grow equally
592 2013-11-04 07:40:30 <swulf--> yeah
593 2013-11-04 07:40:34 <gmaxwell> thats exponentially unlikely with length.
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595 2013-11-04 07:41:18 <swulf--> eventually one chain would have it's next block come out before the other, and that'd be the end of that story
596 2013-11-04 07:42:09 <warren> assuming the continents aren't severed
597 2013-11-04 07:42:23 <gmaxwell> forever.
598 2013-11-04 07:42:41 <gmaxwell> since even if they are, the network will still sort itself out when they rejoin.
599 2013-11-04 07:42:49 <warren> with some pain
600 2013-11-04 07:43:08 ericmuyser has joined
601 2013-11-04 07:43:08 <warren> did anyone do any of those ham radio or satellite link ideas?
602 2013-11-04 07:43:11 <gmaxwell> depends on if you knew they were severed or not and what actions you took.
603 2013-11-04 07:43:22 <swulf--> ok, cool, thanks for the explanation:)
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643 2013-11-04 08:45:32 <warren> re: MacOS X corruption: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770#issuecomment-27669022
644 2013-11-04 08:45:41 <warren> gavinandresen: gmaxwell: jgarzik:
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663 2013-11-04 09:11:27 <Polyatomic> Bitcoin-QT 0.8.5 Question: Just recieved a p2pool payout .The immature value increased but did not appear in the transactions list until several minutes later. I was just wondering why.
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665 2013-11-04 09:12:54 <swulf--> for a block, is nBitsA < nBitsB iff targetA < targetB ?
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704 2013-11-04 09:58:30 <sipa> Polyatomic: generation transactions only appear when there is a new block on top
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708 2013-11-04 09:58:53 <sipa> top prevent people from freaking out if their mined coins disappear in a reorg
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713 2013-11-04 10:01:20 <Polyatomic> Cheers sipa.
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764 2013-11-04 10:57:09 <HaltingState> sipa, i did pull request; missed something in .h documentation :)
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790 2013-11-04 11:38:27 <HaltingState> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21517274/img/stolen_bitcoin.png
791 2013-11-04 11:40:05 Raziel has joined
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793 2013-11-04 11:42:24 <HaltingState> i should probably use secure random number generator and do some xors and sha256 or something because someone might use this library ahahah
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797 2013-11-04 11:56:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I wonder if any miners have put anyone-can-spend coinbase outputs, or perhaps puzzle-type outputs
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825 2013-11-04 13:09:43 <jouke> my 80400 version is not keeping up with the longest chain
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827 2013-11-04 13:10:06 <jouke> 120 connections
828 2013-11-04 13:11:53 <sipa> HaltingState: yes, n,q = private keys; N,Q = corresponding public keys (N=n*G, Q=q*G); then it follows that n*Q = n*q*G = q*n*G = q*N
829 2013-11-04 13:12:05 <sipa> that's the reason ECDH works
830 2013-11-04 13:12:16 <sipa> multiplication is associative and commutativ
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838 2013-11-04 13:31:59 <melvster> somebody claims to have discovered a new attack on bitcion, the 25% attack ... http://bitcoinmagazine.com/7953/selfish-mining-a-25-attack-against-the-bitcoin-network/
839 2013-11-04 13:32:30 <Evilmax> hi all
840 2013-11-04 13:32:59 <Evilmax> can overwirte the blockchains files (already complete) of my windows pc in my linux?
841 2013-11-04 13:33:06 <Evilmax> because bitcoind is too much slow
842 2013-11-04 13:33:28 <Evilmax> on windows i have the client qt and a deamon
843 2013-11-04 13:33:36 <sipa> Evilmax: yes
844 2013-11-04 13:33:42 <Evilmax> and how?
845 2013-11-04 13:33:43 <sipa> Evilmax: copy the blocks and chainstate directories
846 2013-11-04 13:33:48 <Evilmax> ok
847 2013-11-04 13:33:55 <Evilmax> you know what files exactly?
848 2013-11-04 13:34:13 <sipa> yes, the ones i mentioned
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850 2013-11-04 13:34:37 <Evilmax> ah ok:)
851 2013-11-04 13:34:52 <Evilmax> nothing else? nothing from the home?
852 2013-11-04 13:35:02 <sipa> home?
853 2013-11-04 13:35:08 <sipa> those are in your home
854 2013-11-04 13:35:18 <sipa> ~/.bitcoin/blocks and ~/.bitcoin/chainstate
855 2013-11-04 13:35:44 <Evilmax> ah ok
856 2013-11-04 13:35:55 <Evilmax> i mean home of bitcoin qt client on windows
857 2013-11-04 13:35:57 <Evilmax> ok
858 2013-11-04 13:36:05 <Evilmax> because i will copy files from there
859 2013-11-04 13:36:07 <sipa> not sure what you mean
860 2013-11-04 13:36:18 <Evilmax> from win client to ubuntu daemon
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862 2013-11-04 13:36:30 <sipa> copy the chainstate and blocks directory from the datadir on windows, to the datadir on linux
863 2013-11-04 13:36:31 <Evilmax> the client is already "sinchronized"
864 2013-11-04 13:36:39 <Evilmax> ok
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868 2013-11-04 13:40:46 <Evilmax> there is nothing in ~/.bitcoin
869 2013-11-04 13:40:50 <Evilmax> only the config file
870 2013-11-04 13:41:05 <sipa> well you're copying things there...
871 2013-11-04 13:42:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Evilmax: Shut down the Windows node, and copy %APPDATA%\Bitcoin\blocks to ~/.bitcoin/blocks
872 2013-11-04 13:42:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|and %APPDATA%\Bitcoin\chainstate to ~/.bitcoin/chainstate
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875 2013-11-04 13:47:37 <Evilmax> 16 gb
876 2013-11-04 13:47:38 <Evilmax> wow
877 2013-11-04 13:48:01 <Evilmax> yes...i am doing that
878 2013-11-04 13:48:03 <Evilmax> :)
879 2013-11-04 13:48:32 <Evilmax> only...in linux folder there were no chainstate or block folder
880 2013-11-04 13:48:36 <Evilmax> why?
881 2013-11-04 13:48:55 <sipa> have you run bitcoind there before?
882 2013-11-04 13:49:00 <Evilmax> yes
883 2013-11-04 13:49:06 <Evilmax> 224 blocks
884 2013-11-04 13:49:12 <sipa> then you're probably not looking in the right place
885 2013-11-04 13:49:14 <Evilmax> ;;blocks
886 2013-11-04 13:49:16 <gribble> 267905
887 2013-11-04 13:49:33 <Evilmax> 224.000
888 2013-11-04 13:49:55 <Evilmax> in all ubuntu system i can't find those folders
889 2013-11-04 13:50:06 <Evilmax> it is strange
890 2013-11-04 13:50:21 <Evilmax> i am tired to wait bitcoind download all blocks
891 2013-11-04 13:50:27 <Evilmax> so i will overwrite them
892 2013-11-04 13:50:38 <Evilmax> surely i would have do this before
893 2013-11-04 13:50:40 <Evilmax> sorry my english
894 2013-11-04 13:51:35 <Evilmax> otherwise i will try, if this doesn't work too, to host daemon on window...and linux will connect it through lan
895 2013-11-04 13:51:52 <Evilmax> because the linux server is a small netbook
896 2013-11-04 13:51:53 <Evilmax> ;(
897 2013-11-04 13:52:01 <Evilmax> low ram
898 2013-11-04 13:53:34 ds is now known as away!ds@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-kqsgikodvlabxlrd|dongshengcn
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906 2013-11-04 14:08:09 <melvster> do you know if anyone is actively working on justmoon's bitcoinjs-lib anymore?
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919 2013-11-04 14:24:32 <sipa> melvster: i doubt it
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941 2013-11-04 14:56:42 <Evilmax> what is command to connect a remote daemon via rpc?
942 2013-11-04 14:56:47 <Evilmax> from unix shell
943 2013-11-04 14:56:56 <Evilmax> i want connect my lan bitcoind
944 2013-11-04 14:57:02 <Evilmax> daemon in my lann
945 2013-11-04 14:57:03 <Evilmax> lan
946 2013-11-04 14:57:08 michagogo has joined
947 2013-11-04 14:57:31 <kjj> bitcoind
948 2013-11-04 14:57:59 <Evilmax> it is not local
949 2013-11-04 14:58:08 <Evilmax> the daemon is on other machine of the lan
950 2013-11-04 14:58:10 <michagogo> Evilmax: take a look at `bitcoind -help`
951 2013-11-04 14:58:15 <kjj> safest is to create an alternate conf file with all of the connection details, then use -conf=/path/to/alt.conf
952 2013-11-04 14:58:46 Zarutian has joined
953 2013-11-04 14:59:03 <michagogo> --help, rather
954 2013-11-04 14:59:38 <kjj> -rpcconnect is what you use to tell it to connect elsewhere
955 2013-11-04 14:59:55 <michagogo> and you'll need -rpcallowip on the remote daemon
956 2013-11-04 15:01:05 <kjj> note that RPC authentication is not particularly secure. for remote connections, you are asking for trouble unless you use -rpcssl and configure your certs properly
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965 2013-11-04 15:04:09 <Evilmax> pardon
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968 2013-11-04 15:04:48 <Evilmax> so ho i have to connect my daemon from remote?
969 2013-11-04 15:04:53 <Evilmax> how
970 2013-11-04 15:05:01 <Evilmax> rpcclient?
971 2013-11-04 15:05:01 <kjj> safest is to create an alternate conf file with all of the connection details, then use -conf=/path/to/alt.conf
972 2013-11-04 15:05:04 <kjj> -rpcconnect is what you use to tell it to connect elsewhere
973 2013-11-04 15:05:07 <kjj> note that RPC authentication is not particularly secure. for remote connections, you are asking for trouble unless you use -rpcssl and configure your certs properly
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984 2013-11-04 15:18:03 <Evilmax> sorry
985 2013-11-04 15:18:15 dgolds_ has joined
986 2013-11-04 15:18:21 <Evilmax> but still i do not understand how i can connect my btc daemon on 8332
987 2013-11-04 15:18:25 <Evilmax> port
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1029 2013-11-04 16:04:27 <gdoteof> anyone use the android wallet? i am trying to figure out what is going on. i had some bitcoins on a phone; backed up the keys
1030 2013-11-04 16:04:36 <gdoteof> after i backed up the keys i made a transaction
1031 2013-11-04 16:04:37 <gdoteof> phone died
1032 2013-11-04 16:04:41 <gdoteof> can't recover
1033 2013-11-04 16:04:47 <gdoteof> load up emulator to restore keys
1034 2013-11-04 16:05:06 <gdoteof> it loads.. but it shows in my list of transactions "internal" for the last one
1035 2013-11-04 16:05:24 <gdoteof> which is the entire balance to some address i don't know
1036 2013-11-04 16:05:26 <gdoteof> unredeemed
1037 2013-11-04 16:05:57 <gdoteof> no other coins at that address
1038 2013-11-04 16:06:31 <Belxjander> gdoteof: make a new transaction to a new wallet on the new phone?
1039 2013-11-04 16:06:47 <Belxjander> gdoteof: whats the date on that "internal" transaction?
1040 2013-11-04 16:06:53 ekkis has joined
1041 2013-11-04 16:06:58 <gdoteof> .ttp://i.imgur.com/jNkTRbx.png
1042 2013-11-04 16:07:03 <sipa> gdoteof: were you using the application on two devices at once?
1043 2013-11-04 16:07:11 <sipa> with the same wallet
1044 2013-11-04 16:07:15 <gdoteof> sipa: no..
1045 2013-11-04 16:07:29 <gdoteof> http://i.imgur.com/jNkTRbx.png
1046 2013-11-04 16:07:30 <gdoteof> sry
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1050 2013-11-04 16:11:47 <gdoteof> in my attempts to recover use of the android i guess i could have opened an attack vector
1051 2013-11-04 16:11:51 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1052 2013-11-04 16:11:59 <gdoteof> it was around that date that the thing broke
1053 2013-11-04 16:12:30 runeks has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1054 2013-11-04 16:13:51 <tcatm> gdoteof: Did you backup before or after August 20th?
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1065 2013-11-04 16:21:44 <gdoteof> tcatm: before
1066 2013-11-04 16:21:45 stalled has joined
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1068 2013-11-04 16:21:56 <gdoteof> i recieved coins, backed up
1069 2013-11-04 16:21:58 <gdoteof> then spent some
1070 2013-11-04 16:22:22 <tcatm> gdoteof: Can you click on your address and make a screenshot of that screen?
1071 2013-11-04 16:26:41 davec has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1072 2013-11-04 16:27:54 <gdoteof> tcatm: which address?
1073 2013-11-04 16:28:02 chris_l has joined
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1075 2013-11-04 16:29:02 <gdoteof> tcatm: i think you meant this http://imgur.com/72YIVVN
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1103 2013-11-04 16:46:00 <Ogig> seen this already "selfish mining"? http://arxiv.org/abs/1311.0243
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1112 2013-11-04 16:58:06 <darsie> What's wrong with https://blockchain.info/tx/856964b167c70ca510d9ea89c97adadbdf6283a010a3fa668183d207d7bcb7d7 ? bitcoind sendrawtransaction refuses it with error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX rejected"}. This is a delayed tx from mtgox. I pushed it on blockchain.info.
1113 2013-11-04 16:58:24 neep3r has joined
1114 2013-11-04 16:59:26 <Apocalyptic> you're trying to double spend ?
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1116 2013-11-04 16:59:37 <darsie> I am?
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1118 2013-11-04 17:00:21 <Apocalyptic> i don't know why you would push a TX already in the bc.i mempool
1119 2013-11-04 17:00:30 <Apocalyptic> unless i misunderstood what you're doing
1120 2013-11-04 17:00:45 <darsie> The withdrawal didn't show up on the net and after 2h I took it from https://data.mtgox.com/api/0/bitcoin_tx.php and transmitted it via http://blockchain.info/pushtx
1121 2013-11-04 17:01:08 <sipa> xcan you paste the transaction somewhere?
1122 2013-11-04 17:01:13 <darsie> yes
1123 2013-11-04 17:01:45 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
1124 2013-11-04 17:01:58 <darsie> http://paste.debian.net/63955/
1125 2013-11-04 17:02:51 testnode9 has joined
1126 2013-11-04 17:02:59 <sipa> darsie: it's spending a coinbase output which hasn't matured
1127 2013-11-04 17:03:10 <darsie> How can I see this?
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1129 2013-11-04 17:03:13 <sipa> it's a known problem that mtgox creates such invalid transactions
1130 2013-11-04 17:03:24 <sipa> but just wait ~a day, and it will be valid
1131 2013-11-04 17:03:36 <sipa> half a day by now
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1133 2013-11-04 17:04:17 <darsie> How can I see there's an immature coinbase?
1134 2013-11-04 17:04:22 <TD> some miner must be making payouts directly to mtgox wallets
1135 2013-11-04 17:04:25 neep3r_ has joined
1136 2013-11-04 17:04:28 <TD> rather than routing via their own wallet first
1137 2013-11-04 17:05:28 <darsie> I checked the inputs and none were 25 btc. Hmm, blockchain probably doesn't credit the 25 btc, correctly.
1138 2013-11-04 17:05:42 <darsie> BCI
1139 2013-11-04 17:06:14 <Tril> seems an anti-sybil sybil could detect selfish miner nodes failing to propagate honest blocks.
1140 2013-11-04 17:06:49 <darsie> sipa: How did you find out it was an immature coinbase?
1141 2013-11-04 17:07:04 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
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1143 2013-11-04 17:11:59 <phantomcircuit> TD, eligius
1144 2013-11-04 17:12:00 <phantomcircuit> everytime i've seen that it's been eligius
1145 2013-11-04 17:12:08 davec has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1146 2013-11-04 17:12:51 <TD> mm
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1150 2013-11-04 17:16:27 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, so it strikes me that they have the economics of a mining pool completely wrong
1151 2013-11-04 17:16:54 <phantomcircuit> their selfish strategy would necessarily increase the variance in finding blocks
1152 2013-11-04 17:17:04 <phantomcircuit> the very economic reason for a pools existence
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1154 2013-11-04 17:17:51 <gmaxwell> Mtgox knows about the problem, they are apparently somewhat hard for them to fix because their custom wallet software doesn't track enough information to identify coinbases. I suggested a workaround of always trying to use coins >100 blocks old, but I'm not sure if they've implemented that yet.
1155 2013-11-04 17:18:04 <gmaxwell> ('mtgox knows' = I've now talked to magicaltux about it)
1156 2013-11-04 17:18:37 <darsie> gmaxwell: How can I check whether a tx contains immature coinbase?
1157 2013-11-04 17:18:52 <phantomcircuit> follow it's inputs
1158 2013-11-04 17:19:16 <gmaxwell> darsie: walk its inputs back to see where they were created.
1159 2013-11-04 17:19:18 <darsie> phantomcircuit: I did on BCI. I didn't see an input with 25 btc.
1160 2013-11-04 17:19:50 <gmaxwell> darsie: 25 btc is irrelevant.
1161 2013-11-04 17:20:03 <gmaxwell> darsie: some miners break up the coinbases directly.
1162 2013-11-04 17:20:07 <darsie> ohh
1163 2013-11-04 17:20:11 <gmaxwell> so, e.g. the block may create 25 1 btc outputs.
1164 2013-11-04 17:20:20 <gmaxwell> (or any other mix)
1165 2013-11-04 17:20:23 <darsie> ic
1166 2013-11-04 17:20:45 <phantomcircuit> what he said
1167 2013-11-04 17:21:04 <phantomcircuit> i've pretty much only seen this problem with eligius stuff
1168 2013-11-04 17:21:28 <phantomcircuit> pools that hold onto the btc and then send it all at once dont tend to spend immature outputs
1169 2013-11-04 17:21:33 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: nah, a couple other pools do it too, though eligius has the highest percentage of the network of any of them (12%)
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1171 2013-11-04 17:22:41 <gmaxwell> the last one of these mtgox ones I looked at was a p2pool one. This is certantly not a new behavior, pools have been doing this since early 2011 iirc.
1172 2013-11-04 17:24:21 <Apocalyptic> out of curiosity what does immature coinbase mean ?
1173 2013-11-04 17:24:27 <darsie> Ok, here https://blockchain.info/address/17S9Phr3d5UyvcSMuXVyvkhDJhKfaMZCFi I see 0.3973967 BTC coinbase with 55 confirmations ...
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1178 2013-11-04 17:28:02 <gmaxwell> Apocalyptic: it's a coinbase transaction with less than 100 confirms.
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1185 2013-11-04 17:34:32 <Apocalyptic> There must be a good reason but I wonder why this delay exists
1186 2013-11-04 17:35:31 <TD> to avoid re-orgs invalidating valid transactions
1187 2013-11-04 17:36:00 <TD> if this rule did not exist, mtgox could create withdrawals that could then be spent, which in turn could be rendered entirely invalid by a naturally occurring re-org
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1189 2013-11-04 17:37:31 <gmaxwell> In particular this means that reorgs won't cause totally honest parties to become theieves out of now fault of their own.
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1193 2013-11-04 17:38:09 <gmaxwell> Mtgox isn't a great example there because they could still make good on their payments... but imagine, joe miner gets a block. spends it. then there is a reorg and the block is gone and joe has no coins at all.
1194 2013-11-04 17:38:24 <gmaxwell> Joe didn't mean to be a theif but now he has no coins and cannot pay you.
1195 2013-11-04 17:39:04 <gmaxwell> it also means that a miner doing a short fork for an isolated node can't spend the coins they just mined and make the node think it got paid unless they go mine 100 blocks.
1196 2013-11-04 17:39:08 wrabbit has joined
1197 2013-11-04 17:39:59 <gmaxwell> in any case, having your coins delayed for 100 blocks is a really small cost of being a miner. :)
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1199 2013-11-04 17:40:38 <darsie> Can be quite a loss if there's a big crash.
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1204 2013-11-04 17:47:27 <TD> https://coinkite.com/faq/security - this page makes me skeptical
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1211 2013-11-04 17:50:53 <lianj> i wonder how "full-drive encryption" prevents "employee of the VM hosting company" to look at the running machine
1212 2013-11-04 17:51:27 <Luke-Jr> lianj: sounds like it's because the VMs don't have the keys
1213 2013-11-04 17:51:38 <Luke-Jr> the full drive encryption being on another server
1214 2013-11-04 17:52:13 <lianj> true
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1217 2013-11-04 17:54:22 <Apocalyptic> thanks for the explanation gmaxwell
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1219 2013-11-04 17:54:27 <gmaxwell> Certantly you could make it harder for someone with physical access to cause trouble, and thats not a bad idea. Though it sounds like they're massively overstating the possible on their FAQ page.
1220 2013-11-04 17:55:04 <firepacket> the key has to be in memory, doesn't it?
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1222 2013-11-04 17:55:15 <firepacket> they can always dump the key if it's mounted
1223 2013-11-04 17:55:17 <Luke-Jr> firepacket: not on the VMs
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1225 2013-11-04 17:55:54 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, except with a vm dumping ram is trivial
1226 2013-11-04 17:55:55 tmsk has joined
1227 2013-11-04 17:56:07 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: sure, but the keys aren't on the VM
1228 2013-11-04 17:56:21 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, of course they are
1229 2013-11-04 17:56:23 <phantomcircuit> just in memory
1230 2013-11-04 17:56:24 <Luke-Jr> "Remember, even if our web servers were to be compromised, the private keys that protect the funds are not stored on those machines."
1231 2013-11-04 17:56:36 <phantomcircuit> oh
1232 2013-11-04 17:56:44 <phantomcircuit> yeah that generally misses the point
1233 2013-11-04 17:56:50 <lianj> phantomcircuit: and if not, this machine has a socket to speak with the hsm then
1234 2013-11-04 17:56:59 <firepacket> the
1235 2013-11-04 17:57:01 <firepacket> thats interesting
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1237 2013-11-04 17:57:08 <phantomcircuit> an attacker with access to the database can just generate fake deposits
1238 2013-11-04 17:57:19 <Luke-Jr> it's possible, sure, but much trickier than merely dumping the RAM I think
1239 2013-11-04 17:57:29 <phantomcircuit> unless you have proper auditing in place separating the wallet from the db server is basically pointless
1240 2013-11-04 17:57:55 <Luke-Jr> probably best for this kind of thing to never use a VM anyway
1241 2013-11-04 17:58:09 <firepacket> are you talking about the inner vm being compromised, or the host?
1242 2013-11-04 17:58:51 <phantomcircuit> firepacket, if you're protecting against the data centers employees then the host is already compromised
1243 2013-11-04 17:58:54 <phantomcircuit> by definition
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1246 2013-11-04 17:59:37 <firepacket> okay then i guess i don't understand how the key could not be on the machine that needs to run the encrypted code
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1250 2013-11-04 18:00:05 <Luke-Jr> firepacket: locked in a dedicated server off-site
1251 2013-11-04 18:00:33 <firepacket> okay but it is still in the memory of the computer running it
1252 2013-11-04 18:00:47 pecket has joined
1253 2013-11-04 18:00:52 <firepacket> the hardware has to access the system, how can it do so without the decryption key?
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1267 2013-11-04 18:14:58 <Luke-Jr> lianj: hope you don't mind I just dusted my cold wallet to Coinbase <.<
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1270 2013-11-04 18:21:32 <Luke-Jr> transaction relaying seems to have something weird lately
1271 2013-11-04 18:21:43 <Luke-Jr> none of my transactions seem to get to my server until they're in a block O.o
1272 2013-11-04 18:22:50 ds is now known as away!ds@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-kqsgikodvlabxlrd|dongshengcn
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1318 2013-11-04 19:15:25 dongshengcn is now known as ds|away
1319 2013-11-04 19:16:04 <michagogo> Hmm, looking at getpeerinfo
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1322 2013-11-04 19:16:58 <michagogo> my 8 outbounds consist of 3 0.8.5 nodes, 4 0.8.1 nodes, and an 0.8.4 node
1323 2013-11-04 19:17:01 patcon has joined
1324 2013-11-04 19:18:23 <michagogo> Hm, and I have a whole bunch of peers with "version" : 0, "subver" : "", "inbound" : true, "startingheight" : -1,
1325 2013-11-04 19:18:35 <michagogo> 0 bytes send and received
1326 2013-11-04 19:18:38 <michagogo> sent*
1327 2013-11-04 19:19:03 <michagogo> Huh, they're gone now o_O
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1329 2013-11-04 19:20:51 <jouke> Luke-Jr: I have the same feeling. Today I even had that problem with blocks themselves. (one being orphaned, but there was a chain that was allready three blocks bigger before it hit my node with 120 connected nodes).
1330 2013-11-04 19:22:11 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1331 2013-11-04 19:22:30 <Luke-Jr> looks like I'm waiting on Eligius to include 3 of my 4 transactions :x
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1370 2013-11-04 20:07:22 <gulli> Hey, Im making a web app. Was using Java but thinking about switching to Python. Would a layout like this be smart? Serverside Python code that talks to a wallet (a scalable one, need to research that a bit) and insert/gets addresses, then interacts with the bitcoin network through bitcoind with JSON-RPC calls
1371 2013-11-04 20:07:31 <gulli> that a smart way to go about it?
1372 2013-11-04 20:08:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gulli: what will the web app be?
1373 2013-11-04 20:08:27 <gulli> I was talking about it yesterday
1374 2013-11-04 20:08:28 <gulli> viraltrade.com
1375 2013-11-04 20:08:37 <gulli> an exchange for gamecurrency and bitcoin
1376 2013-11-04 20:09:08 <maaku> gulli: not recommended to expose bitcoind to your server
1377 2013-11-04 20:09:25 <maaku> not directly at least
1378 2013-11-04 20:09:30 owowo has joined
1379 2013-11-04 20:09:38 <maaku> use HD wallets for generating new addresses server side
1380 2013-11-04 20:09:58 <maaku> and a message queue or something similar for routing requests to the server running the hot wallet
1381 2013-11-04 20:10:34 <gulli> ahh ok
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1383 2013-11-04 20:11:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Either HD, or just generate a whole bunch of addresses ahead of time
1384 2013-11-04 20:11:28 <gulli> what is a HD wallet?
1385 2013-11-04 20:11:40 <gulli> harddrive? ^^
1386 2013-11-04 20:11:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hierarchical Determinustwd
1387 2013-11-04 20:11:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Deterministic*
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1393 2013-11-04 20:14:22 <sipa> gulli: what do you need RPC for?
1394 2013-11-04 20:14:36 <sipa> your wallet applicqtion gets to see transactions through p2p
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1397 2013-11-04 20:15:56 <gulli> well I wanted to have more control, in the code, call for instance getbalance
1398 2013-11-04 20:15:59 <gulli> stuff like that
1399 2013-11-04 20:16:04 <gulli> generate addresses
1400 2013-11-04 20:16:06 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1401 2013-11-04 20:16:35 <gulli> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_%28JSON-RPC%29
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1403 2013-11-04 20:19:07 <firepacket> Does anyone know if there is any reference implementation of CoinJoin currently?
1404 2013-11-04 20:19:34 <daybyter> gulli, are you still interested in a ltc project?
1405 2013-11-04 20:19:46 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1409 2013-11-04 20:23:58 <gulli> yup
1410 2013-11-04 20:24:01 <gulli> very much
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1414 2013-11-04 20:24:26 <gulli> I want to add other digital currecnies than just btc
1415 2013-11-04 20:26:02 Ogig has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
1416 2013-11-04 20:26:29 <gulli> daybyter, and it seems there is a need for a good ltc exchange
1417 2013-11-04 20:26:47 debiantoruser has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1418 2013-11-04 20:26:59 <daybyter> btc-e is great, methinks...
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1420 2013-11-04 20:27:36 <gulli> never used it, but I dont like for instance the 500 euro deposit minimum
1421 2013-11-04 20:27:56 <gulli> means I need to but btc from bitstamp, then deposit them to btc-e and then get ltc
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1423 2013-11-04 20:29:24 <daybyter> that's right. But I like the site a lot. Much better than mtgox in my eyes.
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1427 2013-11-04 20:33:06 <sipa> gulli: if you're calling getbalance, that means you're using bitcoind's wallet
1428 2013-11-04 20:33:14 <sipa> gulli: i thought you wanted to use another wallet
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1453 2013-11-04 21:01:14 <UukGoblin> everyone should switch to p2pool already, goddammit
1454 2013-11-04 21:01:26 <Luke-Jr> would anyone oppose adding #bitcoin-watch functionality to Bitcoin-Qt's debug window?
1455 2013-11-04 21:01:33 ericmuyser has joined
1456 2013-11-04 21:01:33 <Luke-Jr> UukGoblin: no they shouldn't
1457 2013-11-04 21:02:11 Musk has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1458 2013-11-04 21:02:34 <UukGoblin> if my reasoning is correct, a large fraction (>75%) of people on p2pool would prevent the selfish-mining algorithm from working (for \gamma = 0.5)
1459 2013-11-04 21:02:53 michagogo has joined
1460 2013-11-04 21:04:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: which functionality is that?
1461 2013-11-04 21:04:11 <Luke-Jr> UukGoblin: p2pool is not unique in that regard.
1462 2013-11-04 21:04:28 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: join it and see -.-
1463 2013-11-04 21:06:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: A live feed of every transaction?
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1465 2013-11-04 21:07:13 <UukGoblin> Luke-Jr, I believe p2pool will prevent coalitions of selfish-miners from forming... but I might be wrong
1466 2013-11-04 21:07:16 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: yes
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1468 2013-11-04 21:07:29 <Luke-Jr> UukGoblin: p2pool is just another pool
1469 2013-11-04 21:07:36 <UukGoblin> you certainly can't guarantee that a centralized pool will not behave selfishly
1470 2013-11-04 21:07:48 <Luke-Jr> UukGoblin: there are plenty of decentralised pools
1471 2013-11-04 21:07:58 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: What would it look like?
1472 2013-11-04 21:08:05 <UukGoblin> Luke-Jr, oh really? like?
1473 2013-11-04 21:08:12 a_meteor_alt has joined
1474 2013-11-04 21:08:13 <michagogo> (also, I don't think it should have anything mentioning mtgox...)
1475 2013-11-04 21:08:15 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: the same?
1476 2013-11-04 21:08:20 <Luke-Jr> UukGoblin: like Eligius
1477 2013-11-04 21:08:21 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1478 2013-11-04 21:08:30 <UukGoblin> Luke-Jr, I thought Eligius was operated by you?
1479 2013-11-04 21:08:34 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: I mean, another tab? How would you present it?
1480 2013-11-04 21:08:40 <Luke-Jr> UukGoblin: by wizkid057; p2pool is operated by forrestv
1481 2013-11-04 21:08:46 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: yeah, another tab
1482 2013-11-04 21:08:58 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: why would it exclude MtGox?
1483 2013-11-04 21:09:05 <UukGoblin> so it's not decentralized
1484 2013-11-04 21:09:08 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: I mean, it shouldn't display mtgox trades
1485 2013-11-04 21:09:10 <Luke-Jr> UukGoblin: yes it is
1486 2013-11-04 21:09:19 <michagogo> UukGoblin: It can be, with gbt
1487 2013-11-04 21:09:21 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: why should it exclude MtGox?
1488 2013-11-04 21:09:22 <UukGoblin> forrestv has no control over the pool, he only develops the code
1489 2013-11-04 21:09:28 <UukGoblin> michagogo, what's gbt?
1490 2013-11-04 21:09:31 <Luke-Jr> UukGoblin: that's control
1491 2013-11-04 21:09:41 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: I don't mean transactions to/from mtgox
1492 2013-11-04 21:09:44 <UukGoblin> Luke-Jr, no, he can't shut it down or change rules at whim
1493 2013-11-04 21:09:45 <michagogo> I mean actual mtgox trades
1494 2013-11-04 21:10:06 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: I know what you mean, I'm asking why
1495 2013-11-04 21:10:13 <michagogo> ...why would it?
1496 2013-11-04 21:10:14 <Luke-Jr> UukGoblin: sure he can.
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1498 2013-11-04 21:10:35 <UukGoblin> Luke-Jr, how?
1499 2013-11-04 21:10:36 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: it's useful information to watch
1500 2013-11-04 21:10:50 <Luke-Jr> UukGoblin: release a new version, tell everyone it's a mandatory upgrade; it's inefficient, but it's the same thing
1501 2013-11-04 21:10:59 <michagogo> Yes, but I don't know if that's the kind of thing that belongs in the satoshi client
1502 2013-11-04 21:11:06 <UukGoblin> I'm not 100% sure of my original statement that p2pool would prevent selfishness though... I guess coaltions could still form even in p2pool
1503 2013-11-04 21:11:46 <UukGoblin> Luke-Jr, well then it'd take at least a few days until everyone upgraded... and still if it shut down the pool, people would quickly revert back to a working version
1504 2013-11-04 21:11:55 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: Satoshi is the codebase; B-Qt is just based on it
1505 2013-11-04 21:12:15 <michagogo> B-Qt is the Satoshi client's GUI
1506 2013-11-04 21:12:45 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: it's the only currently-maintained GUI built on it, but they're distinct
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1515 2013-11-04 21:22:48 <ThomasV> inputs.io has been hacked...
1516 2013-11-04 21:23:41 <jouke> :o
1517 2013-11-04 21:25:00 <sipa> what did they do?
1518 2013-11-04 21:25:18 nym has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1520 2013-11-04 21:25:19 terry has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1521 2013-11-04 21:25:27 Vpr has joined
1522 2013-11-04 21:25:27 <sipa> sort of an online wallet?
1523 2013-11-04 21:26:00 Vpr has left ()
1524 2013-11-04 21:26:01 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1525 2013-11-04 21:26:06 askmike has joined
1526 2013-11-04 21:27:57 Vprx has joined
1527 2013-11-04 21:28:47 darsie has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
1528 2013-11-04 21:32:48 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1529 2013-11-04 21:33:01 <Luke-Jr> ThomasV: how?
1530 2013-11-04 21:34:22 debiantoruser has joined
1531 2013-11-04 21:34:25 <ThomasV> Luke-Jr: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=248803.msg3482410#msg3482410
1532 2013-11-04 21:35:00 <ThomasV> sipa: bitcoin-qt too is an "online wallet"
1533 2013-11-04 21:35:04 <ThomasV> :)
1534 2013-11-04 21:35:11 <sipa> ThomasV: fair enough
1535 2013-11-04 21:35:27 <ThomasV> I'd call them "web wallets"
1536 2013-11-04 21:35:50 <gingpark1> can run the eloipool server on ubuntu 12.04 lts 64 bit ?
1537 2013-11-04 21:36:01 <Luke-Jr> gingpark1: likely
1538 2013-11-04 21:36:56 <gingpark1> im trying to run , run-eloipool.sh but the terminal just closes right away
1539 2013-11-04 21:37:10 _ingsoc has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1540 2013-11-04 21:37:31 <gingpark1> and eloipool.py has bitcoinrpc.authproxy.JSONRPCException
1541 2013-11-04 21:37:46 <gingpark1> error log , can't seem to find anything on forums for this
1542 2013-11-04 21:37:58 <Luke-Jr> run-eloipool.sh is not part of Eloipool and I can't support random scripts, sorry
1543 2013-11-04 21:38:35 <gingpark1> do you know another way to get eloipool running?
1544 2013-11-04 21:38:49 <Luke-Jr> by hand
1545 2013-11-04 21:39:11 _ingsoc has joined
1546 2013-11-04 21:39:23 <sipa> you take an electromagnet and a steady hand...
1547 2013-11-04 21:39:41 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1548 2013-11-04 21:39:51 <sipa> (though i'm sure that compared to running a script, you can call running it "by hand", but it's not a particularly informative answer, Luke-Jr)
1549 2013-11-04 21:40:20 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik wrote a guide somewhere
1550 2013-11-04 21:40:39 <gingpark1> im using that one and the zeroasic on github
1551 2013-11-04 21:41:02 debiantoruser has joined
1552 2013-11-04 21:41:50 <maaku> firepacket: not yet. contact me if you're interested in funding a open implementation
1553 2013-11-04 21:43:21 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1554 2013-11-04 21:44:33 nomailing has joined
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1557 2013-11-04 21:47:06 debiantoruser has joined
1558 2013-11-04 21:49:19 bitspill has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1559 2013-11-04 21:50:24 <sipa> v0.3.0..v0.4.0: 639 commits
1560 2013-11-04 21:50:43 <sipa> v0.4.0..v0.5.0: 454 commits
1561 2013-11-04 21:50:59 <sipa> v0.5.0..v0.6.0: 292 commits
1562 2013-11-04 21:51:15 frb has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1563 2013-11-04 21:51:20 <sipa> v0.6.0..v0.7.0: 697 commits
1564 2013-11-04 21:51:37 <sipa> v0.7.0..v0.8.0: 366 commits
1565 2013-11-04 21:51:52 <sipa> v0.8.0..HEAD: 614 commits
1566 2013-11-04 21:52:04 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: the webwallet partially run by some guy that was selling accounts and password hashes on the forum as his prior business?
1567 2013-11-04 21:52:23 <sipa> i didn't know 6-7 was that much
1568 2013-11-04 21:52:35 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: lol, I didn't know that
1569 2013-11-04 21:52:35 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I guess we can always do a 0.10 with the bigger stuff? :P
1570 2013-11-04 21:52:37 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1571 2013-11-04 21:53:15 <maaku> sounds like it's release time
1572 2013-11-04 21:54:38 btcbtc_ has joined
1573 2013-11-04 21:54:38 <ThomasV> maaku: for your utxo tree?
1574 2013-11-04 21:54:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: but but... 0.10 sounds so puny compared to 0.9
1575 2013-11-04 21:55:12 <maaku> sipa: 0.A ?
1576 2013-11-04 21:55:16 <sipa> maaku: \o/
1577 2013-11-04 21:55:32 btcbtc has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1578 2013-11-04 21:55:36 <Luke-Jr> we could do tonal versions..
1579 2013-11-04 21:55:46 <Luke-Jr> it'd be ironic without tonal support
1580 2013-11-04 21:55:47 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: haha
1581 2013-11-04 21:56:12 <michagogo> Wouldn't that have had to have started at the beginning?
1582 2013-11-04 21:56:17 <Happzz> http://money.cnn.com/2013/11/04/technology/bitcoin-flaw/index.html
1583 2013-11-04 21:56:19 <Happzz> opinions?
1584 2013-11-04 21:56:20 groglogic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1585 2013-11-04 21:56:20 <sipa> we should just use qualitative suffices instead of version numbers
1586 2013-11-04 21:56:25 <sipa> like Bitcoin ME
1587 2013-11-04 21:56:27 <sipa> and Bitcoin XP
1588 2013-11-04 21:56:30 <michagogo> Unless I'm misremembering, the two numbering systems are incomptible
1589 2013-11-04 21:57:05 groglogic has joined
1590 2013-11-04 21:57:20 <gfawkes_> oi... the flood of stupid idiots begins
1591 2013-11-04 21:57:36 <sipa> Happzz: i haven't followed the link, but if it's about the "25% attack", read the mailing list
1592 2013-11-04 21:57:59 <Happzz> sipa in short: "But solutions don't have to be publicized. If you solve a puzzle and keep it secret, you can start working on the next one and let everyone else keep mining in the wrong spot."
1593 2013-11-04 21:58:18 <ThomasV> it's about the 51% attack
1594 2013-11-04 21:58:23 <sipa> Happzz: i mean i haven't clicked on your link
1595 2013-11-04 21:58:30 <sipa> i think i'm very aware of what it is about :)
1596 2013-11-04 21:58:47 debiantoruser has joined
1597 2013-11-04 21:58:55 <Happzz> so it's just a headline?
1598 2013-11-04 21:59:15 <sipa> it's certainly more complicated than that
1599 2013-11-04 21:59:24 <gfawkes_> CNN has aligned their interests against bitcoin, not surprising really given that their fiat empire is collapsing
1600 2013-11-04 21:59:36 <Happzz> hah
1601 2013-11-04 21:59:47 <sipa> Happzz: if you want details, read the mailinglist
1602 2013-11-04 21:59:51 <sipa> there's been a large discussion
1603 2013-11-04 21:59:52 <maaku> ubuntu releases? start with "affluent aardvark"
1604 2013-11-04 21:59:52 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: no, up to 8 is the same in decimal vs tonal
1605 2013-11-04 21:59:54 <Happzz> sipa i don't even know where iti s
1606 2013-11-04 22:00:08 <sipa> maaku: we'll start with Bulky Blockchain
1607 2013-11-04 22:00:14 <maaku> i like it
1608 2013-11-04 22:00:21 <sipa> Happzz: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
1609 2013-11-04 22:00:25 <sipa> google for archives
1610 2013-11-04 22:00:28 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: ah
1611 2013-11-04 22:00:40 <Happzz> thanks
1612 2013-11-04 22:00:52 <Zarutian> where can one get decent news nowdays? BBC is okay ish, so is Al Jazera English. Any others?
1613 2013-11-04 22:00:58 <Luke-Jr> Zarutian: IRC
1614 2013-11-04 22:01:07 * sipa prefers IRL
1615 2013-11-04 22:01:12 <Luke-Jr> if something important happens, you'll hear about it on IRC
1616 2013-11-04 22:01:18 <Luke-Jr> ^ my strategy
1617 2013-11-04 22:01:21 <sipa> ah, about bitcoin?
1618 2013-11-04 22:01:26 <Luke-Jr> about anything
1619 2013-11-04 22:01:27 <michagogo> sipa: yeah, I was thinking we need a codename system
1620 2013-11-04 22:01:37 yubrew has quit ()
1621 2013-11-04 22:01:41 <sipa> followed by Clumsy Coding
1622 2013-11-04 22:01:44 <Zarutian> Luke-Jr: you know that isnt such a bad idea actually
1623 2013-11-04 22:01:49 <michagogo> just a matter of defining the parameters
1624 2013-11-04 22:02:01 <michagogo> (and coming up with a bunch of names)
1625 2013-11-04 22:02:03 <gmaxwell> Happzz: or read my forum post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324413.msg3476697#msg3476697
1626 2013-11-04 22:02:05 <Luke-Jr> Zarutian: don't let too many people adopt it, or it will fall apart :<
1627 2013-11-04 22:02:20 <michagogo> Also, do we want to go back and label previous releases?
1628 2013-11-04 22:02:32 <Luke-Jr> fwiw, Amir's comment on the "selfish miner" thing is that the author has an axe to grind
1629 2013-11-04 22:02:33 <michagogo> Since the blockchain wasn't so bulky back then...
1630 2013-11-04 22:02:39 <Luke-Jr> he didn't mention what that axe is
1631 2013-11-04 22:02:59 <Zarutian> Luke-Jr: blunt axes are the worst
1632 2013-11-04 22:03:05 <sipa> what's the plural of axe?
1633 2013-11-04 22:03:11 <michagogo> axes, no?
1634 2013-11-04 22:03:16 <sipa> so the same as axis?
1635 2013-11-04 22:03:26 <Luke-Jr> axen? :P
1636 2013-11-04 22:03:30 <michagogo> wiktionary agrees
1637 2013-11-04 22:03:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: hm. would be interesting to know, but I don't think the fundimental thrust is anything wrong. It's also being exagerated by the press as far as I can tell.
1638 2013-11-04 22:03:45 <michagogo> axe (plural axes)
1639 2013-11-04 22:03:46 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: lol, the press gave it attention?
1640 2013-11-04 22:03:47 <Happzz> gmaxwell thanks
1641 2013-11-04 22:04:08 <Zarutian> gmaxwell: tabloidness sold (do not know about nowdays though)
1642 2013-11-04 22:04:08 <michagogo> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/axes#English
1643 2013-11-04 22:04:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: this delay thing? yes.
1644 2013-11-04 22:04:20 <ThomasV> sipa: lol@ Clumsy Coding
1645 2013-11-04 22:04:40 <Zarutian> Fat Fingered might be the next one
1646 2013-11-04 22:04:40 <Luke-Jr> we can name 0.5 Compiler Corruption
1647 2013-11-04 22:05:05 <sipa> then Dodgy Data
1648 2013-11-04 22:05:11 <Luke-Jr> or would it be Lame Linker?
1649 2013-11-04 22:05:39 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1650 2013-11-04 22:05:48 <Zarutian> Awfull Assembly?
1651 2013-11-04 22:05:52 <sipa> Errorneous Eventuality
1652 2013-11-04 22:05:57 <Luke-Jr> BDB Breaks
1653 2013-11-04 22:06:02 <sipa> Fraudulous Fork
1654 2013-11-04 22:06:14 <Luke-Jr> Pepperoni Pizza
1655 2013-11-04 22:06:21 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1656 2013-11-04 22:06:22 <sipa> e=mc2 trooper
1657 2013-11-04 22:06:25 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1658 2013-11-04 22:07:16 <michagogo> Ginormous Gitian
1659 2013-11-04 22:07:18 <ThomasV> evil eventuality
1660 2013-11-04 22:07:30 debiantoruser has joined
1661 2013-11-04 22:07:34 <sipa> Hazardous Hashing
1662 2013-11-04 22:07:47 <ThomasV> financial fraud
1663 2013-11-04 22:08:00 <sipa> f needs to be something with fork :)
1664 2013-11-04 22:08:07 <michagogo> finicky fork
1665 2013-11-04 22:08:08 <Zarutian> Invalid Inputs
1666 2013-11-04 22:08:12 <michagogo> fragile fork
1667 2013-11-04 22:08:16 <sipa> Overspending Outputs
1668 2013-11-04 22:08:17 <michagogo> Ooh, I know
1669 2013-11-04 22:08:19 Grouver has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.)
1670 2013-11-04 22:08:21 <michagogo> Fraudulent Fork
1671 2013-11-04 22:08:28 <sipa> 23:03:29 < sipa> Fraudulous Fork
1672 2013-11-04 22:08:34 frb has joined
1673 2013-11-04 22:08:35 kuzetsa has quit (Quit: Stop doing that it. You don't want it to fall off.)
1674 2013-11-04 22:08:42 ovidiusoft has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1675 2013-11-04 22:08:44 <Zarutian> Jittery Jimmies
1676 2013-11-04 22:08:45 <michagogo> ah
1677 2013-11-04 22:09:03 <Luke-Jr> Overflowing Output
1678 2013-11-04 22:09:05 <sipa> Ridiculous Reorganization
1679 2013-11-04 22:09:07 <michagogo> or false fork
1680 2013-11-04 22:09:33 <michagogo> fruitless fork?
1681 2013-11-04 22:09:36 <sipa> Ghosty Genesis
1682 2013-11-04 22:10:15 <Zarutian> Reasonable Rougues
1683 2013-11-04 22:10:22 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1684 2013-11-04 22:10:43 poggy has joined
1685 2013-11-04 22:10:46 <sipa> Complete Centralization
1686 2013-11-04 22:11:03 <Zarutian> Distrustfull Distribution
1687 2013-11-04 22:11:36 <sipa> Subsiding Subsidy
1688 2013-11-04 22:11:42 kuzetsa has joined
1689 2013-11-04 22:11:51 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1690 2013-11-04 22:11:52 <Luke-Jr> Zealous Zlib
1691 2013-11-04 22:12:20 <sipa> Problematic Pruning
1692 2013-11-04 22:12:44 <Zarutian> Possible Punning
1693 2013-11-04 22:12:59 <sipa> Scrupulous Scripts
1694 2013-11-04 22:13:05 <michagogo> sipa: I like Subsiding Subsidy
1695 2013-11-04 22:13:26 sodoku has joined
1696 2013-11-04 22:13:27 <gmaxwell> Not Smashed Stacks?
1697 2013-11-04 22:13:28 <sipa> well, we still need something with A* A* first!
1698 2013-11-04 22:13:42 <michagogo> hm
1699 2013-11-04 22:13:49 <Zarutian> Battery Party?
1700 2013-11-04 22:13:49 <gmaxwell> Accounting Apodization
1701 2013-11-04 22:13:59 RoboTedd_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1702 2013-11-04 22:14:05 <michagogo> <derogatory> Address, maybe
1703 2013-11-04 22:14:20 <sipa> i guess we need some string that double-SHA256 hashes to something with the version numbers in binary as prefix
1704 2013-11-04 22:14:28 <warren> Luke-Jr: we offered to change Litecoin to tonal by default if you only join dev =)
1705 2013-11-04 22:14:31 <michagogo> Arbitrary Address, maybe?
1706 2013-11-04 22:14:33 <Zarutian> Atrocitious Access?
1707 2013-11-04 22:14:39 <gmaxwell> Anonymous Address.
1708 2013-11-04 22:14:47 dongshengcn is now known as ds|away
1709 2013-11-04 22:14:48 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Nah, people will misunderstand that
1710 2013-11-04 22:15:03 <gmaxwell> Exactly.
1711 2013-11-04 22:15:28 <UukGoblin> ah, GBT looks interesting
1712 2013-11-04 22:15:31 RoboTeddy has joined
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1724 2013-11-04 22:22:53 <owowo> hey, have you heard of this? http://arxiv.org/abs/1311.0243
1725 2013-11-04 22:23:05 <gmaxwell> 13:59 <@gmaxwell> Happzz: or read my forum post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324413.msg3476697#msg3476697
1726 2013-11-04 22:23:07 msvb-lab has quit (Client Quit)
1727 2013-11-04 22:23:08 <gmaxwell> owowo: ^
1728 2013-11-04 22:24:25 <owowo> ok
1729 2013-11-04 22:24:57 <UukGoblin> I've read your post and it's very reasonable
1730 2013-11-04 22:25:55 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, have you responded to this? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324413.msg3478968#msg3478968
1731 2013-11-04 22:26:05 <UukGoblin> "For a pool larger than 33% of the network, no Sybil attack is required."
1732 2013-11-04 22:26:12 <owowo> ya, delaying block makes no sense to since they would get orphaned
1733 2013-11-04 22:26:26 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1734 2013-11-04 22:26:40 <Happzz> owowo not if you can hash the next one quick enough
1735 2013-11-04 22:26:50 <Happzz> you delay it a little bit, then release it
1736 2013-11-04 22:27:09 <Happzz> when you have enough hash power, statistically, you'll find the next one first
1737 2013-11-04 22:27:12 <Happzz> giving you more time to find it
1738 2013-11-04 22:28:58 <UukGoblin> does GBT allow miners to publish the block they're mining?
1739 2013-11-04 22:29:07 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: hadn't seen it yet, but that sounds reasonable to me. The "big but not majority miner delays announcements" thing was known, like .. eons ago, in early 2011 at least.
1740 2013-11-04 22:29:28 <gmaxwell> for some reason I thought the threshold for that was more like 40% or something but I may be pulling that number out of my rear end.
1741 2013-11-04 22:29:56 MC1984 has joined
1742 2013-11-04 22:30:05 <Happzz> it's funny, you know
1743 2013-11-04 22:30:12 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, if the graph in figure 2 of the selfish-mining paper is to be trusted, then it's the red line (with \gamma = 0), which crosses the honest line at 33%
1744 2013-11-04 22:30:13 <Happzz> how someone, somewhere, invented all of this
1745 2013-11-04 22:30:22 <Happzz> and thought about almost anything before anyone else thought about it
1746 2013-11-04 22:30:36 <Happzz> he/they saw all of the flaws and found solutions for mostly anything
1747 2013-11-04 22:31:09 <UukGoblin> I don't think there's a "solution" for this problem
1748 2013-11-04 22:31:16 <Happzz> you know what i mean..
1749 2013-11-04 22:31:21 <gmaxwell> no but it's also not a terribly interesting problem.
1750 2013-11-04 22:31:35 <gmaxwell> if we have 33% miners to begin with we already have major problems. :(
1751 2013-11-04 22:31:46 <UukGoblin> yeah
1752 2013-11-04 22:31:54 <UukGoblin> does GBT allow end miners to publish the blocks they find?
1753 2013-11-04 22:31:57 <gmaxwell> (or even 25%)
1754 2013-11-04 22:33:19 <Happzz> none of the polls have 25%?
1755 2013-11-04 22:33:41 Vprx has quit ()
1756 2013-11-04 22:33:44 <Happzz> pools*
1757 2013-11-04 22:33:52 <UukGoblin> BTC Guild does and GHash.IO is close
1758 2013-11-04 22:33:56 <UukGoblin> https://blockchain.info/pools
1759 2013-11-04 22:34:15 Evilmax has joined
1760 2013-11-04 22:34:15 Evilmax has quit (Changing host)
1761 2013-11-04 22:34:15 Evilmax has joined
1762 2013-11-04 22:34:28 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
1763 2013-11-04 22:35:15 <UukGoblin> where can I find a list of pools implementing GBT?
1764 2013-11-04 22:35:47 bitspill has joined
1765 2013-11-04 22:40:26 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1766 2013-11-04 22:40:28 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1767 2013-11-04 22:42:20 kuzetsa has quit (Quit: Stop doing that it. You don't want it to fall off.)
1768 2013-11-04 22:42:27 <gmaxwell> Happzz: well it's not new that I think we have problems with pool consolidation. But me thinking there is a problem is a long way from anyone caring to do anything about it.
1769 2013-11-04 22:43:09 neep3r has joined
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1771 2013-11-04 22:43:41 a_meteor_alt is now known as a_meteor
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1774 2013-11-04 22:45:16 ds is now known as away!ds@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-kqsgikodvlabxlrd|dongshengcn
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1778 2013-11-04 22:46:13 neep3r has left ()
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1783 2013-11-04 22:50:35 <michagogo> Hmm
1784 2013-11-04 22:50:52 <michagogo> What does "ERROR: Non-canonical signature: R value excessively padded" mean again?
1785 2013-11-04 22:51:09 <michagogo> followed by
1786 2013-11-04 22:51:10 <michagogo> ERROR: CScriptCheck() : 431126c90203cfee91a13390f236a03be79d7ccb1a1be6811802eb8c781f1fc6 VerifySignature failed
1787 2013-11-04 22:51:12 <sipa> the R component of the signature has an unnecessary 0x00 in front
1788 2013-11-04 22:51:32 <michagogo> This is a transaction that was supposedly created by mtgox
1789 2013-11-04 22:51:53 <michagogo> [00:17:22] <anarchy5> mtgox did another fuckup.. they sent me 300 btc and its stuck in limbo: http://blockchain.info/tx-index/431126c90203cfee91a13390f236a03be79d7ccb1a1be6811802eb8c781f1fc6
1790 2013-11-04 22:52:29 <michagogo> Took me a while to figure out how to get that monster transaction into bitcoind so I could actually get at the log file...
1791 2013-11-04 22:52:38 soheil has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1792 2013-11-04 22:53:34 <sipa> using such signatures has been non-standard since 0.8.0 iirc
1793 2013-11-04 22:54:00 askmike has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1794 2013-11-04 22:54:27 askmike has joined
1795 2013-11-04 22:54:53 dongshengcn is now known as ds|away
1796 2013-11-04 22:55:21 <gmaxwell> dunno how people make these mistakes. :(
1797 2013-11-04 22:55:59 rdponticelli_ is now known as rdponticelli
1798 2013-11-04 22:56:59 handle_ has joined
1799 2013-11-04 22:58:53 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1800 2013-11-04 22:58:57 <UukGoblin> is this question OK here? "Does GBT allow pool miners to broadcast a block as soon as they find it?"
1801 2013-11-04 22:59:03 handle has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1802 2013-11-04 22:59:38 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: it is and it does. sorry I didn't respond before.
1803 2013-11-04 22:59:55 grau has joined
1804 2013-11-04 23:00:01 <UukGoblin> ah cool, thanks
1805 2013-11-04 23:00:21 <UukGoblin> that should stop any naughty pools from trying this selfish mining without their users consenting...
1806 2013-11-04 23:01:29 bbrian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1807 2013-11-04 23:01:54 <michagogo> So is that transaction (https://blockchain.info/tx/431126c90203cfee91a13390f236a03be79d7ccb1a1be6811802eb8c781f1fc6?format=hex) simply broken?
1808 2013-11-04 23:02:08 <michagogo> In other words, does mtgox need to fix it?
1809 2013-11-04 23:02:11 <sipa> it is perfectly valid
1810 2013-11-04 23:02:15 <sipa> it's just not standard
1811 2013-11-04 23:02:20 <michagogo> ah
1812 2013-11-04 23:02:21 <gmaxwell> michagogo: no, its not broken, but most nodes won't realy and mine them.
1813 2013-11-04 23:02:24 <sipa> and yes, if they created it, they need to fix their signing code
1814 2013-11-04 23:02:30 <gmaxwell> You could mutate the transaction and make valid if you like.
1815 2013-11-04 23:02:41 <gmaxwell> but that might make their software very unhappy. :P
1816 2013-11-04 23:02:46 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Ah, really?
1817 2013-11-04 23:02:47 <gmaxwell> (since it will change the txid.
1818 2013-11-04 23:02:48 <gmaxwell> )
1819 2013-11-04 23:03:13 <gmaxwell> michagogo: yea, thats why we're enforcing sane signature encoding, because the degrees of freedom let third parties change your txids.
1820 2013-11-04 23:03:26 <michagogo> Is there an easy way to tell which output has the R value excessively padded?
1821 2013-11-04 23:03:28 neep3r_ has joined
1822 2013-11-04 23:03:46 <sipa> fetchtx.info may help
1823 2013-11-04 23:03:49 <gmaxwell> yea, the code that whines about it can tell, obviously.
1824 2013-11-04 23:04:33 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1825 2013-11-04 23:04:49 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1826 2013-11-04 23:05:14 <gmaxwell> michagogo: it's easy to see the \0 bytes at least. though it if has a lot of signatures...
1827 2013-11-04 23:05:35 OneFixt has joined
1828 2013-11-04 23:06:03 <michagogo> it does
1829 2013-11-04 23:06:29 neep3r has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1830 2013-11-04 23:07:03 <michagogo> Looks like the signatures are all 71, 72, or 73 bytes in length
1831 2013-11-04 23:07:17 slothbag has joined
1832 2013-11-04 23:07:39 <sipa> so the rule is: they must either start with a 0x00 followed by a byte >= 0x80, or start with a byte < 0x80
1833 2013-11-04 23:08:22 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1834 2013-11-04 23:08:48 <gmaxwell> I don't understand why they all wouldn't be... but.
1835 2013-11-04 23:09:17 Application has joined
1836 2013-11-04 23:09:30 <michagogo> wait
1837 2013-11-04 23:09:36 <michagogo> is 0x30 the push_1 opcode?
1838 2013-11-04 23:09:48 slothbag has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1839 2013-11-04 23:09:52 <sipa> no
1840 2013-11-04 23:10:04 <sipa> it's the first byte of the DER serialized signature
1841 2013-11-04 23:10:05 slothbag has joined
1842 2013-11-04 23:10:31 slothbag has quit (Client Quit)
1843 2013-11-04 23:10:41 <michagogo> they all start with 30 and then 44, 45, or 46
1844 2013-11-04 23:10:51 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L250
1845 2013-11-04 23:11:10 <michagogo> gmaxwell: ah, thanks
1846 2013-11-04 23:11:35 <michagogo> so the byte to look at is the 5th?
1847 2013-11-04 23:11:51 <michagogo> or the 4th?
1848 2013-11-04 23:12:03 <sipa> depends where you start counting
1849 2013-11-04 23:12:12 <michagogo> counting 30 as the 1st
1850 2013-11-04 23:12:27 <sipa> then the 5th
1851 2013-11-04 23:12:54 <sipa> though to correct it, if you cut that 5th byte out, you'll also need to decrease the 4th and the 2nd by 1
1852 2013-11-04 23:13:25 <gmaxwell> yea, this is broken code that is ignoring the size returned by the signer.
1853 2013-11-04 23:13:31 <gmaxwell> the S values are excessively padded too.
1854 2013-11-04 23:13:51 <michagogo> "OP_PUSHDATA(304502204e36aa659f69d5391232a486...)"
1855 2013-11-04 23:14:01 <gmaxwell> 82 signatures..
1856 2013-11-04 23:14:18 <gmaxwell> look down a bit, e.g. 304502200d5eed3094 < thats padded.
1857 2013-11-04 23:14:18 <michagogo> so is that one broken?
1858 2013-11-04 23:14:37 <gmaxwell> So is 304502200f09842e94480b79b5f
1859 2013-11-04 23:14:52 <michagogo> uh
1860 2013-11-04 23:14:55 <gmaxwell> and half of the other ones, also half of the S values.
1861 2013-11-04 23:15:03 <michagogo> maybe I'm misunderstanding [01:05:04] <sipa> so the rule is: they must either start with a 0x00 followed by a byte >= 0x80, or start with a byte < 0x80
1862 2013-11-04 23:15:23 <michagogo> oh, wait
1863 2013-11-04 23:16:16 <gmaxwell> see the code:
1864 2013-11-04 23:16:17 <gmaxwell> if (nLenR > 1 && (R[0] == 0x00) && !(R[1] & 0x80))
1865 2013-11-04 23:16:17 <gmaxwell> return error("Non-canonical signature: R value excessively padded");
1866 2013-11-04 23:16:51 * michagogo doesn't fully understand that line
1867 2013-11-04 23:17:38 <sipa> the first byte of R must not be 0x00 unless the byte that follows has its highest bit set
1868 2013-11-04 23:18:03 <sipa> <@gmaxwell> look down a bit, e.g. 304502200d5eed3094 < thats padded. <<< no it's not
1869 2013-11-04 23:18:08 realazthat has joined
1870 2013-11-04 23:18:21 <sipa> R[0] is 0x0d there
1871 2013-11-04 23:18:39 <gmaxwell> hm, I was off by one then.
1872 2013-11-04 23:18:58 <sipa> even then
1873 2013-11-04 23:19:08 <sipa> it would be 0x00 0xd5, which is correct
1874 2013-11-04 23:19:17 <gmaxwell> Indeed.
1875 2013-11-04 23:19:56 <gmaxwell> Here are all the signatures: http://0bin.net/paste/mBHbPeKB2fBJQpio#RaaOt1Xaq08MH1b8ClDj+3IYDyRAzR0QgqtnUBLJaqU=
1876 2013-11-04 23:20:20 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1877 2013-11-04 23:22:43 grau has joined
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1879 2013-11-04 23:22:47 michagogo has joined
1880 2013-11-04 23:22:47 michagogo has quit (cloud!uid14316@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ycqzxaqqpwvzrtqt|Changing host)
1881 2013-11-04 23:22:48 michagogo has joined
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1883 2013-11-04 23:24:09 <sipa> 30440220002d4ef93693f534fa1da3bc234f7ea47fa5f782b5e639e3ed32a9b36e2d893102205522dc0b5ca8be979a7d0debcf2753e3d4d6d44f8c82d328d820ea60e14dafee01
1884 2013-11-04 23:24:18 <sipa> that's padded
1885 2013-11-04 23:24:37 <sipa> but it's an unusual case, where the R value is one byte shorter than average
1886 2013-11-04 23:25:07 soheil has joined
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1892 2013-11-04 23:28:02 <MC1984> i wonder if we would ever see the price take a hit as as a direct result of papers like the selfish miner one
1893 2013-11-04 23:28:02 <MC1984> (assuming its not bullshit)
1894 2013-11-04 23:28:34 <sipa> i doubt the bullshit part matters for price impact :)
1895 2013-11-04 23:28:53 <michagogo> Are there any utilities out there that will dissect transactions like that?
1896 2013-11-04 23:28:53 parus has joined
1897 2013-11-04 23:29:03 <michagogo> s/transactions/signatures/
1898 2013-11-04 23:29:03 <sipa> fetchtx.info
1899 2013-11-04 23:29:04 <MC1984> ah i found gregs forums post on it
1900 2013-11-04 23:29:43 <michagogo> sipa: that doesn't do anything with the signatures, afaict
1901 2013-11-04 23:29:46 <michagogo> just display them
1902 2013-11-04 23:29:48 <MC1984> things have happened before that should logically have undermined confidence in the technical system and therefore price, but they didnt really
1903 2013-11-04 23:29:52 <sipa> oh
1904 2013-11-04 23:30:01 <sipa> MC1984: indeed
1905 2013-11-04 23:30:03 Diablo-D3 has joined
1906 2013-11-04 23:31:03 <MC1984> kind of like how there are gaping flaws in the old monetary system yet most people are just doublethinking it away and everything more or less keeps rolling........
1907 2013-11-04 23:31:21 <MC1984> same mindset lol
1908 2013-11-04 23:32:58 <sipa> MC1984: ironically, as long as they do believe it will keep working, it probably actually will :)
1909 2013-11-04 23:33:18 <MC1984> yes. Isnt that scary
1910 2013-11-04 23:33:49 <MC1984> well, such an attitude does sort of work where the numbers themselves can be manipulated at will.
1911 2013-11-04 23:34:21 <MC1984> but i would predict it all ends in tears in a system like bitcoin where the numbers are immutable.
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1914 2013-11-04 23:34:52 <gmaxwell> Nothing is immutable when everyone believes.
1915 2013-11-04 23:35:05 rodarmor has quit (Quit: rodarmor)
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1918 2013-11-04 23:37:55 <MC1984> everyone could collectively turn bitcoin into the worlds most resilient pornography storage mechanism tomorrow, if they wanted to
1919 2013-11-04 23:38:12 parus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1920 2013-11-04 23:38:19 <MC1984> one hopes enough people would say "no thats stupid" to stop it though.
1921 2013-11-04 23:38:34 rolme has joined
1922 2013-11-04 23:38:35 <MC1984> considering some of the shit thats made it into the chain maybe thats a bad example
1923 2013-11-04 23:38:46 parus has joined
1924 2013-11-04 23:40:07 <MC1984> if i wanted to get gnomic about it, id say that bitcoin will eventually end us as exactly what people really want it to be deep down, and perhaps without them even really thinking too hard about it
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1930 2013-11-04 23:43:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: any reason the BIP32 testvectors don't include the resulting addresses?
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1933 2013-11-04 23:44:54 <gulli_> So these HD wallets, the main pro is that you can basically retrieve all your wallets by remembering one passphrase. The main con is, if someone cracks that passphrase everyone is fucked.
1934 2013-11-04 23:45:15 <gulli_> and this passphrase, this is pretty much like how you construct a brainwallet
1935 2013-11-04 23:45:16 <gulli_> right
1936 2013-11-04 23:45:21 <gmaxwell> No.
1937 2013-11-04 23:45:36 <MC1984> no you are fucked not everyone
1938 2013-11-04 23:45:46 <MC1984> if you make it right it wont get cracked
1939 2013-11-04 23:46:00 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1940 2013-11-04 23:46:02 <gmaxwell> Absolutely not. There is a name for doing that, it's called "moronic". Using human provided entropy is utter failure.
1941 2013-11-04 23:46:26 <gmaxwell> gulli_: normally use a cryptographically strong random number generator to generate a key, same as any other key is generated.
1942 2013-11-04 23:46:37 <gmaxwell> gulli_: just the result is that instead of one address you have many.
1943 2013-11-04 23:46:47 <MC1984> i meant like electrums brainwallets
1944 2013-11-04 23:47:26 <MC1984> ie take what your given and sit your ass down for 2 hours and create a mnemonic for yourself
1945 2013-11-04 23:47:41 debiantoruser has joined
1946 2013-11-04 23:47:59 reneg has joined
1947 2013-11-04 23:48:02 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's a misnomer with nomenclature to call that a brainwallet, just because everything else that people call that isn't that. Thats a mnemonic encoding of a strong random key.
1948 2013-11-04 23:48:19 <MC1984> oh ok then
1949 2013-11-04 23:48:35 <MC1984> i thought it was anything where the entire seed can be stored in your head, shitty or not
1950 2013-11-04 23:48:40 rolme has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1951 2013-11-04 23:48:53 <gmaxwell> maybe, but thats not the common usage.
1952 2013-11-04 23:49:34 <MC1984> it would be if electrum had did it first. bit of a shame brainwallet is a nice buzzword
1953 2013-11-04 23:49:42 <MC1984> now has a deserved shitty rep
1954 2013-11-04 23:50:40 ielo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1956 2013-11-04 23:51:19 <MC1984> gmaxwell are you advocating a bitcoin backbone in that post? You seemed quite of the opposite conviction before
1957 2013-11-04 23:51:23 sensorii has joined
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1961 2013-11-04 23:52:15 <gmaxwell> MC1984: grep your logs
1962 2013-11-04 23:52:16 <gmaxwell> 09:51 < gmaxwell> Miners _ought_ to be arranging private peering with each other to increase security and remove these problems.
1963 2013-11-04 23:52:20 <gulli_> ok, I mean, the con is, that if someone finds the random passphrase he can gain access to all addresses, right?
1964 2013-11-04 23:52:25 canooon has joined
1965 2013-11-04 23:52:35 <gulli_> because you just increment the passphrase
1966 2013-11-04 23:52:48 <gulli_> and derive the hashes from it
1967 2013-11-04 23:52:53 <gmaxwell> --- Day changed Fri Aug 05 2011
1968 2013-11-04 23:52:59 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1969 2013-11-04 23:53:14 <MC1984> hm
1970 2013-11-04 23:53:44 <MC1984> i thought they already were
1971 2013-11-04 23:54:20 <gmaxwell> gulli_: the "increment" is a sequence through hmac with a 256 bit key. So they need a private key (a 256 bit random number) and the chaining code, another 256 bit number. In any case, I don't know how you're proposing he 'find' them, but they'd also apply to single private keys.
1972 2013-11-04 23:54:37 <gmaxwell> MC1984: they do, to some degree, it's impossible to know how much. I suspect there could be more.
1973 2013-11-04 23:54:39 nym has joined
1974 2013-11-04 23:55:33 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the better connected miners are the less effective attacks that require outracing their blocks or partitioning them are.
1975 2013-11-04 23:56:16 <MC1984> if everyone was just well connected as hell it probably wouldnt matter
1976 2013-11-04 23:56:23 <MC1984> UDP transport when
1977 2013-11-04 23:56:37 hnz has joined
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1979 2013-11-04 23:57:47 <MC1984> but maybe peering agreements might be the beginnings of other mutually beneficial stuff miners might do that we dont like
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1981 2013-11-04 23:58:08 <MC1984> miners/pools
1982 2013-11-04 23:58:16 <MC1984> especially since there are so few of them
1983 2013-11-04 23:58:39 groglogic has joined
1984 2013-11-04 23:58:56 <MC1984> i prefer my bitcoin as an amorphous cloud :<
1985 2013-11-04 23:59:03 <michagogo> So there's no easy way to fix that transaction with all those padded signatures?
1986 2013-11-04 23:59:35 <gmaxwell> michagogo: I fixed the padding that sipa found and there was a padded S value in there somewhere.