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  23 2013-11-07 00:20:28 * Zarutian finally goes and updates to version 0.8.5
  24 2013-11-07 00:21:04 <Zarutian> how long does reindexing usually take?
  25 2013-11-07 00:22:22 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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  29 2013-11-07 00:30:17 <sipa> Zarutian: depends on cpu, database cache size, disk speed
  30 2013-11-07 00:30:46 <Zarutian> I only need a very rough gestimate
  31 2013-11-07 00:30:53 <Zarutian> guestimate*
  32 2013-11-07 00:30:54 <sipa> if you have spare ram, passing -dbcache=1000 helps a lot
  33 2013-11-07 00:30:57 <berndj> on my laptop it took about a whole day
  34 2013-11-07 00:31:31 <Zarutian> berndj: thank you.
  35 2013-11-07 00:31:39 <sipa> that sounds lomg
  36 2013-11-07 00:31:42 <berndj> 3GB RAM, so it was hitting the disk hard
  37 2013-11-07 00:31:59 <sipa> berndj: it won't use extra ram unless you tell it to
  38 2013-11-07 00:32:24 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  39 2013-11-07 00:32:31 <berndj> sipa, i always assumed that unless you have ram > ~15GB, it wouldn't matter much anyway?
  40 2013-11-07 00:32:49 <berndj> i thought it's basically a hash table access pattern - random accesses all over
  41 2013-11-07 00:33:08 <berndj> is this slightly / moderately / completely wrong?
  42 2013-11-07 00:33:38 Application has joined
  43 2013-11-07 00:34:29 <sipa> huh
  44 2013-11-07 00:34:46 <sipa> even addimg a few hundred MiB helps a lot
  45 2013-11-07 00:34:49 <BlueMatt> the entire statedb doesnt take that much space
  46 2013-11-07 00:35:02 <sipa> the database is only 250 MiB on disk
  47 2013-11-07 00:35:08 <BlueMatt> 274M	/home/matt/.bitcoin/chainstate
  48 2013-11-07 00:35:41 <berndj> doesn't it have to read through the entire blockchain on a reindex?
  49 2013-11-07 00:35:47 <sipa> berndj: yes, sequentially
  50 2013-11-07 00:36:00 <berndj> and the tx are all over, no?
  51 2013-11-07 00:36:05 <BlueMatt> reading 15GB sequentially is no where near the limiting factor once you get up into later blocks
  52 2013-11-07 00:36:16 <sipa> berndj: no, sequentially
  53 2013-11-07 00:36:24 <sipa> you read one block, process it
  54 2013-11-07 00:36:29 <sipa> read the next block, process it
  55 2013-11-07 00:36:41 <berndj> sipa, i mean, each block contains a bunch of tx, those tx: aren't they all over the disk?
  56 2013-11-07 00:36:47 <sipa> no
  57 2013-11-07 00:37:01 <BlueMatt> why would they be? you're iterating over each block linearly
  58 2013-11-07 00:37:02 <sipa> the blocks are stored sequentially on disk
  59 2013-11-07 00:37:11 <berndj> hmm, then i've been enduring a lot of pain unnecessarily
  60 2013-11-07 00:37:37 <gavinandresen> looking up transaction inputs is random unless you do it smartly
  61 2013-11-07 00:37:38 <berndj> BlueMatt, iterating over the block, but... but... oooh, right, the entire tx is included in the block
  62 2013-11-07 00:37:46 <berndj> am i right so far?
  63 2013-11-07 00:37:48 <sipa> berndj: yes
  64 2013-11-07 00:38:08 <BlueMatt> and that 200MB database contains all the unspent transaction outputs
  65 2013-11-07 00:38:17 <sipa> berndj: what you're probably missimg is that we keep a separate, much smaller, database with only the unspemt transaction outputs
  66 2013-11-07 00:38:21 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  67 2013-11-07 00:38:23 <berndj> but... *checking* the tx - doesn't that require chasing random pointers all over?
  68 2013-11-07 00:38:38 <gavinandresen> no, just that little database.
  69 2013-11-07 00:38:40 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: any pointers on who might spare a ec2 instance or two for relay nodes?
  70 2013-11-07 00:38:45 <sipa> and this database is what gets updated all the time throughout the processimg
  71 2013-11-07 00:38:51 <BlueMatt> just need two more to hit the 4 regions I want for initial bootstrap
  72 2013-11-07 00:38:52 <berndj> sipa, i was vaguely aware of that, but hadn't connected it to the present discussion
  73 2013-11-07 00:39:05 <sipa> berndj: so up to 0.7 you were right
  74 2013-11-07 00:39:13 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: we've got leftover dev team budget that has deflated, that seems like a really good use for it
  75 2013-11-07 00:39:34 <sipa> we looked up every transaction's input directly in the block chain
  76 2013-11-07 00:39:50 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: well, disk and cpu doesnt matter, so its really just 2 micro instances at this point
  77 2013-11-07 00:40:01 <BlueMatt> or any bitcoin-accepting vps provider, probably
  78 2013-11-07 00:40:09 <berndj> and... on a reindex, the only tx you're (hopefully) looking up are unspent ones, which are in the utxo database?
  79 2013-11-07 00:40:14 <BlueMatt> as long as they have presence in asia and us-west
  80 2013-11-07 00:40:21 <berndj> is that what i was overlooking?
  81 2013-11-07 00:40:28 debiantoruser has joined
  82 2013-11-07 00:40:31 <sipa> berndj: you never ever need anything but what is in the utxo set
  83 2013-11-07 00:40:45 <sipa> berndj: except when you're processimg history of course
  84 2013-11-07 00:40:53 <sipa> or server history to another node
  85 2013-11-07 00:41:01 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: put together a little budget and I'll send you the coin, unless sipa jgarzik gmaxwell veto that use of dev team funds
  86 2013-11-07 00:41:11 <berndj> we were talking about reindexing, i think
  87 2013-11-07 00:41:18 <sipa> i shall veto such veto :)
  88 2013-11-07 00:41:22 <MC1984> so this relay network gets big, gets relied upon then gets flattened with a ddos
  89 2013-11-07 00:41:22 <berndj> (oh and my reindex that took a day was for txindex=1)
  90 2013-11-07 00:41:32 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: sgtm, Ill see if I can find btc-accepting vps providers that are reasonable and otherwise just see what ec2 would cost
  91 2013-11-07 00:41:32 <MC1984> doesnt that exacerbate partitioning risk
  92 2013-11-07 00:42:11 <sipa> berndj: when building a txindex, it matters even more to increase the dbcache
  93 2013-11-07 00:42:14 <berndj> what regions do you need to cover?
  94 2013-11-07 00:42:36 <BlueMatt> MC1984: the relay network comes with disclaimers everywhere that it is in no way designed to replace the p2p network, and if you rely on only it you will possibly miss blocks/txn
  95 2013-11-07 00:42:47 <berndj> sipa, i shall study that dbsize thing right now, thanks :)
  96 2013-11-07 00:42:56 <sipa> -dbcache=number
  97 2013-11-07 00:42:56 <MC1984> no one reads disclaimers
  98 2013-11-07 00:43:03 <sipa> where number is in megabytes
  99 2013-11-07 00:43:15 <BlueMatt> MC1984: (and the relay network is designed to be partition-able into public/private parts if the public parts get hit with ddos)
 100 2013-11-07 00:43:18 <sipa> BlueMatt: you should have it randomly drop 1% of blocls
 101 2013-11-07 00:43:20 <sipa> blocks
 102 2013-11-07 00:43:30 <BlueMatt> MC1984: well when you miss a block and cant mine anymore....
 103 2013-11-07 00:43:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: hmm, yes, maybe I should
 104 2013-11-07 00:43:53 <BlueMatt> (currently, if you get disconnected and then reconnect you will miss a block, but always doing that may be nice)
 105 2013-11-07 00:44:01 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 106 2013-11-07 00:44:03 <MC1984> i dont like it
 107 2013-11-07 00:44:08 <MC1984> temporary measures are never temporary
 108 2013-11-07 00:44:18 <BlueMatt> its not designed to be temporary
 109 2013-11-07 00:44:31 <MC1984> my opinion counts for shit, but there it is
 110 2013-11-07 00:44:39 <BlueMatt> this is something me/jgarzik/others have been talking about putting together for years
 111 2013-11-07 00:44:48 <gavinandresen> MC1984: so create another fast relay network….
 112 2013-11-07 00:44:57 <BlueMatt> do you disagree for any reason other than centralization?
 113 2013-11-07 00:45:07 <gavinandresen> Two is better than one.  Eleven would be best.
 114 2013-11-07 00:45:14 testnode9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 115 2013-11-07 00:45:29 <MC1984> gavinandresen my instinct would just be to make the amorphous fuzzball network we have now more efficient
 116 2013-11-07 00:45:40 <gavinandresen> MC1984: okey dokey, then do that.
 117 2013-11-07 00:45:51 <MC1984> i cant
 118 2013-11-07 00:45:54 <berndj> BlueMatt, which are the regions you still want to cover?
 119 2013-11-07 00:46:13 <BlueMatt> berndj: something in asia/australia and something in us-west
 120 2013-11-07 00:46:24 Nesetalis has joined
 121 2013-11-07 00:46:24 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 122 2013-11-07 00:46:29 <berndj> ah, i was almost going to offer africa
 123 2013-11-07 00:46:40 <BlueMatt> do we have miners in africa?
 124 2013-11-07 00:46:55 <berndj> i believe there's a guy with asic gear here in south africa
 125 2013-11-07 00:47:00 patcon has joined
 126 2013-11-07 00:47:05 <berndj> can't be the only one
 127 2013-11-07 00:47:26 <BlueMatt> hmm...well if there is demand I can throw one up there
 128 2013-11-07 00:47:42 <berndj> see if you can rouse fluffypony, although i think he's moved his gpu farm to litecoin
 129 2013-11-07 00:48:20 BNCatDIGISHELL has quit (Quit: changing servers)
 130 2013-11-07 00:48:49 <MC1984> i also get the feeling this backbone works somehow to entrench the pooled mining model even more than it is
 131 2013-11-07 00:49:05 <BlueMatt> MC1984: agreed, if there weren't public peering nodes
 132 2013-11-07 00:49:22 <BlueMatt> and any individual miners who have reasonable hashrate should absolutely fill out the private-peering form
 133 2013-11-07 00:49:42 <MC1984> fill out a form to fucking mine, are you serious
 134 2013-11-07 00:50:27 <BlueMatt> umm...no? to mine you can do nothing, or addnode the public nodes, or get on the private nodes if you have a ton of mining power and are considered to be vital to the continued operation of the network
 135 2013-11-07 00:50:40 <BlueMatt> ie if things go to shit, gotta make sure you're still connected
 136 2013-11-07 00:51:04 <MC1984> i know what the objective is and i see the logic
 137 2013-11-07 00:52:07 <MC1984> i just fear scope creep
 138 2013-11-07 00:52:29 <BlueMatt> I think dropping 1% of blocks is probably not a bad idea
 139 2013-11-07 00:52:33 <BlueMatt> to discourage scope creep
 140 2013-11-07 00:52:35 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 141 2013-11-07 00:53:18 <MC1984> sigh
 142 2013-11-07 00:53:33 <sipa> i know, i know! you take the double-sha256 hash of the block header, and if it is less than 0x02, you drop it!
 143 2013-11-07 00:53:51 <sipa> *the last byte
 144 2013-11-07 00:53:55 <BlueMatt> yea, I was thinking that
 145 2013-11-07 00:54:04 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 146 2013-11-07 00:54:13 <BlueMatt> though I prefer dropping if its either BE or EF
 147 2013-11-07 00:54:17 <MC1984> inelegant. i dont want spinners and a wing on muh bitcoin :(
 148 2013-11-07 00:54:58 <sipa> beef is good
 149 2013-11-07 00:55:30 <BlueMatt> MC1984: also, I would like to encourage someone to setup a bitcoin block relay service that relays over arbitrary other protocols
 150 2013-11-07 00:55:41 <BlueMatt> eg relay blocks over twitter and make a client that listens and pushes them to a bitcoind
 151 2013-11-07 00:55:44 <BlueMatt> or over ham radio
 152 2013-11-07 00:55:45 debiantoruser has joined
 153 2013-11-07 00:55:46 <BlueMatt> or...
 154 2013-11-07 00:55:48 <berndj> i was thinking that just today! blocks over nntp!
 155 2013-11-07 00:55:53 <MC1984> headers?
 156 2013-11-07 00:55:54 <berndj> and yes, radio
 157 2013-11-07 00:55:55 <Beef> sipa: Thanks... you're good too. :P
 158 2013-11-07 00:55:58 <BlueMatt> its all about ensuring reliable block delivery everywhere
 159 2013-11-07 00:56:09 <BlueMatt> no, full blocks
 160 2013-11-07 00:56:12 <Zarutian> BlueMatt: over Irridium dataservice/pager ?
 161 2013-11-07 00:56:15 <BlueMatt> headers are nice, but you need full blocks to mine
 162 2013-11-07 00:56:19 <BlueMatt> Zarutian: sure, why not
 163 2013-11-07 00:56:30 <MC1984> headers over a broadcast medium i dont disagree with
 164 2013-11-07 00:56:46 <BlueMatt> I happened to pick the existing p2p protocol for ease-of-use, but its no different
 165 2013-11-07 00:56:53 <MC1984> but i dont see how it could be kept cheap with full blocks. thats choudl be kept for p2p prob
 166 2013-11-07 00:57:58 <BlueMatt> depends on the service
 167 2013-11-07 00:58:24 <MC1984> i woundlt disagree with fullbox over packet radio or somthing either
 168 2013-11-07 00:58:34 MagicFab_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 169 2013-11-07 00:58:45 <berndj> dunno if it falls in the rules for ham radio though?
 170 2013-11-07 00:58:46 <MC1984> but that wont happen either if the uncap all the blocks people get thier way
 171 2013-11-07 00:59:22 <BlueMatt> maybe twitter would be too high-volume, but its just avg 1MB/10minutes
 172 2013-11-07 00:59:27 <BlueMatt> so its really not all that much data
 173 2013-11-07 00:59:34 eculver_ has left ()
 174 2013-11-07 00:59:49 <MC1984> id rather just get headers uplinked to a microsat covering a continent, even if the things only stay up for a few months before reentry
 175 2013-11-07 00:59:55 <MC1984> that would be swish
 176 2013-11-07 01:00:25 <BlueMatt> anyway, this is all very theoretical, y'all should totally build your own block relay network and come back and show something awesome
 177 2013-11-07 01:00:38 <BlueMatt> you cant mine on headers
 178 2013-11-07 01:00:45 <BlueMatt> broadcasting headers to everyone really only has limited use
 179 2013-11-07 01:00:56 <MC1984> headers for security
 180 2013-11-07 01:01:14 <BlueMatt> yea, but even an spv node cant rely on only headers, they have to find their transactions somewhere
 181 2013-11-07 01:01:46 <MC1984> well its in addition to p2p
 182 2013-11-07 01:01:47 <BlueMatt> it provides some level of increased anti-sybil protection, but its not useful
 183 2013-11-07 01:02:58 <MC1984> pff, everyone was popping off about a bitcoin sat a few months ago
 184 2013-11-07 01:03:41 <berndj> what sort of data rate do you need for headers only / full blocks?
 185 2013-11-07 01:03:46 <BlueMatt> broadcasting full blocks (which, obv, include headers) is the way to go, if you can do it
 186 2013-11-07 01:04:43 <MC1984> consider how much bandwidth GPS downlinks
 187 2013-11-07 01:04:59 <MC1984> its like bytes per second
 188 2013-11-07 01:05:09 testnode9 has joined
 189 2013-11-07 01:05:40 <berndj> but really 10Mbps to get the accuracy
 190 2013-11-07 01:05:57 <BlueMatt> if you can fit 10Mbps you can very easily get full blocks
 191 2013-11-07 01:06:06 <BlueMatt> blocks max out at 1MB right now
 192 2013-11-07 01:06:45 <berndj> MC1984, the ephemeris you get from the GPS sat is really just riding on a side channel
 193 2013-11-07 01:06:53 <Zarutian> 1.748 KiloBytes per sec is less than most audio channels of DVB-S iirc
 194 2013-11-07 01:06:54 <berndj> it's the timing info that's everything
 195 2013-11-07 01:07:28 <Zarutian> that is stuffing one block through over the whole ten minute interval
 196 2013-11-07 01:07:48 <MC1984> doesnt work like that
 197 2013-11-07 01:08:17 <Zarutian> good for confirmations but not mining
 198 2013-11-07 01:08:24 <MC1984> if that was true wed have to build+
 199 2013-11-07 01:08:33 <MC1984>  a bitcoin orphanage
 200 2013-11-07 01:09:36 reneg has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 201 2013-11-07 01:11:44 reneg has joined
 202 2013-11-07 01:13:35 <Zarutian> but bursts of 1 MeBiByte every ten minutes is well within the ability of an satelite television station to provide without affecting the quality of their audiovisual content. (Spread it over 5-20 secs or so)
 203 2013-11-07 01:14:35 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, why not headers + merkle tree + transactions not previously broadcast
 204 2013-11-07 01:16:00 mE\Ta has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 205 2013-11-07 01:16:35 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: a) requires processing overhead per node, b) its expected that many/most nodes will only connect to the blocks-only port
 206 2013-11-07 01:17:05 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, then full blocks on blocks only
 207 2013-11-07 01:17:31 <phantomcircuit> actually i guess whatever
 208 2013-11-07 01:18:34 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 209 2013-11-07 01:18:54 <berndj> MC1984, you can do speculative execution of mining. send the header first; assume it's valid (no double spends etc) and start mining; over 10 minutes the full block comes in and you can check it when it's all arrived
 210 2013-11-07 01:19:03 debianto1user has joined
 211 2013-11-07 01:19:10 <berndj> how often do you expect to see blocks that aren't valid?
 212 2013-11-07 01:20:33 <MC1984> i was told it was a bad idea
 213 2013-11-07 01:25:33 <sipa> berndj: you can't accept any transactions in that case
 214 2013-11-07 01:25:35 <BlueMatt> if it takes 2 seconds to receive the full block, sure, you can spv-validate the header and speculatively mine on the next block (but, when you do that, the next block you mine has to have no transactions, so you lose fees, and you cant release the next block until you've validated the block you just got)
 215 2013-11-07 01:25:49 <BlueMatt> so its not ideal, but if you just have to wait a second or so, you can do it
 216 2013-11-07 01:25:52 <BlueMatt> (p2pool does, iirc)
 217 2013-11-07 01:26:08 <BlueMatt> actually, not even sure p2pool does full spv-validation, it may just check hash target
 218 2013-11-07 01:29:17 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 219 2013-11-07 01:32:54 one_zero has joined
 220 2013-11-07 01:33:19 Neozonz has joined
 221 2013-11-07 01:33:21 <berndj> you could accept new tx that arrive after the previous block header-carrying pigeon arrives
 222 2013-11-07 01:33:37 <BlueMatt> no
 223 2013-11-07 01:33:45 <BlueMatt> may be a double-spend against a now-confirmed tx
 224 2013-11-07 01:33:58 <berndj> you'll find that out by the time you have the full header
 225 2013-11-07 01:34:11 <berndj> yes, in which case your effort is wasted, but that's pragmatics
 226 2013-11-07 01:34:48 <BlueMatt> well you might as well not waste effort and include no txn instead of potentially waste effort (and probably not be able to claim fees on those txn anyway)
 227 2013-11-07 01:35:07 gulli has joined
 228 2013-11-07 01:36:07 <berndj> anyway, what sort of dystopian world is this where it takes 10 minutes to transfer a megabyte!
 229 2013-11-07 01:36:52 <berndj> 19200bps dialup :)
 230 2013-11-07 01:37:15 independent has left ()
 231 2013-11-07 01:37:40 qwertyoruiop has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 232 2013-11-07 01:38:08 Tykling has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 233 2013-11-07 01:38:11 qwertyoruiop has joined
 234 2013-11-07 01:38:56 <sipa> berndj: even if it is a few seconds, the chance of producing an invalid block during that period may be significant
 235 2013-11-07 01:39:03 Tykling has joined
 236 2013-11-07 01:39:38 Bkil has joined
 237 2013-11-07 01:40:56 <gulli> Im trying to figure one thing out here about armory's cold and hot wallets. If I am understanding this correctly, the hot wallet does not know the starting seed value (if it would, then it woulnt be that secure at all), so how can it generate new addresses?
 238 2013-11-07 01:41:38 <BlueMatt> magical math
 239 2013-11-07 01:43:34 BNCatDIGISHELL has joined
 240 2013-11-07 01:43:48 <gulli> how?
 241 2013-11-07 01:44:35 Raccoon has joined
 242 2013-11-07 01:44:48 <BlueMatt> bip 32
 243 2013-11-07 01:44:58 <BlueMatt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032
 244 2013-11-07 01:45:51 <gulli> yeah I just found it
 245 2013-11-07 01:47:46 shamoon has joined
 246 2013-11-07 01:47:48 <shamoon> what's a vOneShots?
 247 2013-11-07 01:47:49 gjj_ has joined
 248 2013-11-07 01:48:03 <shamoon>     BOOST_FOREACH(string strDest, mapMultiArgs["-seednode"])
 249 2013-11-07 01:48:03 <shamoon>         AddOneShot(strDest);
 250 2013-11-07 01:48:07 <shamoon> is that where it first finds peers?
 251 2013-11-07 01:48:56 <berndj> is there a place to send random 1-line patches to bitcoind?
 252 2013-11-07 01:49:31 <BlueMatt> shamoon: that is an optional way to first fine peers
 253 2013-11-07 01:49:38 <BlueMatt> berndj: github, really...
 254 2013-11-07 01:49:49 <shamoon> in the source, where's the FIRST way to find peers?
 255 2013-11-07 01:49:52 <berndj> forking seems a bit heavyweight for a 1-liner, but ok
 256 2013-11-07 01:50:00 <BlueMatt> shamoon: dnsseeds
 257 2013-11-07 01:50:20 <shamoon> strMainNetDNSSeed
 258 2013-11-07 01:50:21 <BlueMatt> berndj: if you really want you could just open a bug with the ticket, but gavinandresen might not be happy about that
 259 2013-11-07 01:50:49 <Luke-Jr> shamoon: first in what sense?
 260 2013-11-07 01:50:58 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 261 2013-11-07 01:51:05 <shamoon> so i start the client, standalone, not connected to a network
 262 2013-11-07 01:51:10 <shamoon> it'll jsut kinda sit there and wait
 263 2013-11-07 01:51:13 <Luke-Jr> shamoon: it will check your own IP database first; but if it's a first-time user who doesn't have that, dns seeds
 264 2013-11-07 01:51:25 Elmf has joined
 265 2013-11-07 01:51:29 <shamoon> what info does it get from the dns seed?
 266 2013-11-07 01:51:39 <sipa> IP addresses of potential peers
 267 2013-11-07 01:51:41 <shamoon> {"bitcoin.sipa.be", "seed.bitcoin.sipa.be"}
 268 2013-11-07 01:51:44 <sipa> which go into the address database
 269 2013-11-07 01:51:58 <sipa> and the connection logic fetches addresses from that database to connect to
 270 2013-11-07 01:52:10 <shamoon> if i go to it on port 80, it goes to network graphs
 271 2013-11-07 01:52:21 <shamoon> what port does it grab the IP's from?
 272 2013-11-07 01:52:23 robocoin_ has joined
 273 2013-11-07 01:52:36 <BlueMatt> lol, TD[away]'s G+ post has now made it all the way to the verge
 274 2013-11-07 01:52:44 <sipa> shamoon: it grabs them from DNS
 275 2013-11-07 01:52:47 <sipa> it doesn't connect to it
 276 2013-11-07 01:53:08 <shamoon> A record?
 277 2013-11-07 01:53:09 <gavinandresen> TD says bad things about the NSA, and is now [away] … hmmm,coincidence?
 278 2013-11-07 01:53:13 <sipa> it just looks up seed.bitcoin.sipa.be, which resolves to some random bitcoin node's IP addresses
 279 2013-11-07 01:53:17 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: heh
 280 2013-11-07 01:53:22 <shamoon> http://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=a%3abitcoin.sipa.be&run=toolpage
 281 2013-11-07 01:53:51 <gavinandresen> I'm wearing my tinfoil beanie today.
 282 2013-11-07 01:53:53 <sipa> shamoon: not bitcoin.sipa.be
 283 2013-11-07 01:53:58 <sipa> shamoon: seed.bitcoin.sipa.be
 284 2013-11-07 01:54:03 <sipa> the first is just the site that owns it
 285 2013-11-07 01:54:23 <shamoon> so http://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=a%3abitcoin.sipa.be&run=toolpage#t
 286 2013-11-07 01:54:29 <shamoon> these are the peers it tries
 287 2013-11-07 01:54:44 <sipa> well you get a different list every time
 288 2013-11-07 01:54:54 <shamoon> and if those seeds don't work, then it uses pnSeed?
 289 2013-11-07 01:55:01 <sipa> no
 290 2013-11-07 01:55:06 <shamoon> then?
 291 2013-11-07 01:55:10 <sipa> all that happens is that these go into your local database
 292 2013-11-07 01:55:23 <sipa> together with IP addresses it gets from other peers
 293 2013-11-07 01:55:29 <sipa> or that get -addnode'd
 294 2013-11-07 01:55:31 <shamoon> what if the DNS seeds are down
 295 2013-11-07 01:55:41 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 296 2013-11-07 01:55:44 <shamoon> pnSeed is hardcoded peers, correct?
 297 2013-11-07 01:55:47 <gavinandresen> sipa: can I throw some wallet-dealing-with-double-spends-better ideas off you?  You have time?
 298 2013-11-07 01:56:14 <sipa> shamoon: if after N time (i forgot how long), nothing useful appears in the local database, it adds some from pnSeed
 299 2013-11-07 01:56:19 <sipa> gavinandresen: not now, about to head to bed
 300 2013-11-07 01:56:32 <gavinandresen> sipa: ok, good night!
 301 2013-11-07 01:56:38 <shamoon> so if iw ant to create my own private bitcoin network, i can disable the dns seeds and hardcode a pnSeed or 2
 302 2013-11-07 01:56:39 <shamoon> ?
 303 2013-11-07 01:56:47 <sipa> just run testnet
 304 2013-11-07 01:56:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: damn you, I wanted to be here for that
 305 2013-11-07 01:57:02 <sipa> you can use -nodnsseed i think
 306 2013-11-07 01:57:03 <shamoon> i'm testing network stuffs
 307 2013-11-07 01:57:08 <shamoon> not bitcoin stuffs
 308 2013-11-07 01:57:12 <gavinandresen> or, probably even better -regtest network (easier to create new blocks)
 309 2013-11-07 01:57:24 <BlueMatt> shamoon: -connect=... means dont listen, dont make any connections except to ...
 310 2013-11-07 01:57:33 <BlueMatt> it may still do dnsseed lookups, but it doesnt use those addresses
 311 2013-11-07 01:57:40 <BlueMatt> and use -regtest
 312 2013-11-07 01:57:47 <sipa> listen to BlueMatt
 313 2013-11-07 01:57:50 <shamoon> so i can hardcode, int he code, the -connect
 314 2013-11-07 01:57:52 <sipa> he's more awake than i am
 315 2013-11-07 01:57:56 <sipa> cya!
 316 2013-11-07 01:58:02 <shamoon> i can run 2 instances, each that connect to each other
 317 2013-11-07 01:58:09 <shamoon> then i'll have my own private 2 node bitcoin network?
 318 2013-11-07 01:58:15 <BlueMatt> why hardcode? just put it in your bitcoin.conf
 319 2013-11-07 01:58:17 <BlueMatt> but, yes
 320 2013-11-07 01:58:23 <shamoon> well, to make a specialized client
 321 2013-11-07 01:58:26 <shamoon> for another purpose
 322 2013-11-07 01:58:29 <shamoon> other than bitcoin
 323 2013-11-07 01:58:30 <BlueMatt> one with -listen -connect=0.0.0.0, one with -connect=127.0.0.1:...
 324 2013-11-07 01:59:21 <gavinandresen> my tinfoil hat is ringing with ideas on what your mysterious "other purpose" might be....
 325 2013-11-07 01:59:38 <shamoon> gavinandresen: ha, wish i could tell you
 326 2013-11-07 01:59:40 <shamoon> but not yet
 327 2013-11-07 01:59:55 <shamoon> BlueMatt: i assuem 127 is the ip of the one that i -listen on?
 328 2013-11-07 02:00:01 <BlueMatt> yea
 329 2013-11-07 02:00:42 <shamoon> so now i set them both to setgenerate=true
 330 2013-11-07 02:00:50 <shamoon> so i should see blocks rolling in soon
 331 2013-11-07 02:00:51 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 332 2013-11-07 02:01:16 <BlueMatt> if you have shittons of cpu, sure
 333 2013-11-07 02:01:23 <shamoon> why?
 334 2013-11-07 02:01:29 <shamoon> it's a fresh start where they connec tot each other
 335 2013-11-07 02:01:31 <shamoon> 0 blocks
 336 2013-11-07 02:01:33 <BlueMatt> even diff 1 isnt particularly easy
 337 2013-11-07 02:01:40 <BlueMatt> but, yes, you will eventually see blocks
 338 2013-11-07 02:01:44 <BlueMatt> hence, -regtest
 339 2013-11-07 02:01:49 <BlueMatt> which sets a different min diff
 340 2013-11-07 02:01:53 <shamoon> why do i have 0 blocks?
 341 2013-11-07 02:01:55 <shamoon> shouldn't i have 1?
 342 2013-11-07 02:01:57 <shamoon> the genesis
 343 2013-11-07 02:01:59 <BlueMatt> (which is insanely ridiculously easy)
 344 2013-11-07 02:02:02 <sipa> genesis is block 0
 345 2013-11-07 02:02:03 <BlueMatt> genesis == block 0
 346 2013-11-07 02:02:09 <sipa> and you'll need -nocheckpoints
 347 2013-11-07 02:02:16 <shamoon> ohh
 348 2013-11-07 02:02:16 <shamoon> right
 349 2013-11-07 02:02:26 <sipa> and there may be other random things failing, as it's not really designed for this
 350 2013-11-07 02:02:42 <BlueMatt> hence, use -regtest
 351 2013-11-07 02:02:45 <BlueMatt> which is designed for this
 352 2013-11-07 02:02:48 <shamoon> what is regtest?
 353 2013-11-07 02:04:26 molec has joined
 354 2013-11-07 02:06:33 <Bkil> I was working on getting s testnet setup for s project I was going go do and couldn't find anything that said use -regtest
 355 2013-11-07 02:06:48 <Bkil> Found all the testnet stuff though
 356 2013-11-07 02:07:43 moleccc has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 357 2013-11-07 02:08:21 <shamoon> thanks sipa and BlueMatt
 358 2013-11-07 02:08:23 <shamoon> you guys rock
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 368 2013-11-07 02:12:24 <shamoon> i changed to: static const int64 nTargetSpacing = 1 * 60;
 369 2013-11-07 02:12:27 <shamoon> to get 1 minute blocks
 370 2013-11-07 02:12:30 <shamoon> still nothing
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 377 2013-11-07 02:17:17 <shamoon> BlueMatt: sipa gavinandresen - any thoughts?
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 380 2013-11-07 02:17:46 <gavinandresen> sipa is asleep. I'm thinking about other things, you're on your own....
 381 2013-11-07 02:17:50 <BlueMatt> shamoon: use regtest, it sets the meaning of diff 1 to mean 1 in 2 shot at getting a block
 382 2013-11-07 02:18:04 <BlueMatt> vs the mainnet meaning of quite hard
 383 2013-11-07 02:18:11 <shamoon> just add -regtest?
 384 2013-11-07 02:18:14 <BlueMatt> yea
 385 2013-11-07 02:18:17 <BlueMatt> on all nodes
 386 2013-11-07 02:18:19 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I can't remember was -regtest in 0.8.5?  If it was, I should update the testnet-in-a-box README
 387 2013-11-07 02:18:26 <BlueMatt> yes, it was
 388 2013-11-07 02:18:27 <shamoon> that explains it
 389 2013-11-07 02:18:28 Bohren_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 390 2013-11-07 02:18:32 <shamoon> i'm on .8.2.2
 391 2013-11-07 02:18:36 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes, you should
 392 2013-11-07 02:18:38 <shamoon> that's why i don't have regtest
 393 2013-11-07 02:18:43 <BlueMatt> I thought it was before then?
 394 2013-11-07 02:18:49 <BlueMatt> well, I may be wrong
 395 2013-11-07 02:18:52 <BlueMatt> maybe its only 0.9
 396 2013-11-07 02:19:04 <gavinandresen> Yeah, I think it was added very soon after 0.8.mumble shipped
 397 2013-11-07 02:19:07 * BlueMatt -> paper writing
 398 2013-11-07 02:19:31 <shamoon> found a block =)
 399 2013-11-07 02:19:33 <shamoon> yaya!
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 456 2013-11-07 03:33:27 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ok, budget sent...sadly I didnt see any btc-accepting vps providers that were in cities with known-good peering and had good peering themselves, so I think ec2 is the way to go
 457 2013-11-07 03:33:41 <BlueMatt> plus it has the advantage that existing ec2 customers get cheaper bw to/from it (I think?)
 458 2013-11-07 03:34:00 <BlueMatt> well, and its cheaper on ec2
 459 2013-11-07 03:35:12 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/#DataTransfer
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 462 2013-11-07 03:38:40 <BlueMatt> well, ok, cheaper than internet rate in any case
 463 2013-11-07 03:38:43 cyphase has joined
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 465 2013-11-07 03:39:09 <gavinandresen> yup
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 468 2013-11-07 03:39:32 <BlueMatt> anyway, should probably have cc'd the rest of the dev team on that email, if you want to forward
 469 2013-11-07 03:39:50 <gavinandresen> Can you tweak it with an estimate of bandwidth costs?
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 472 2013-11-07 03:43:11 <BlueMatt> ehh, oops, Im too used to vps providers that dont charge for bw (or at least not hitting the caps)
 473 2013-11-07 03:43:18 <BlueMatt> f'ing amazon is so expensive
 474 2013-11-07 03:43:51 <gavinandresen> mmm.  Expensive but reliable.
 475 2013-11-07 03:44:50 reneg has joined
 476 2013-11-07 03:47:38 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: there, better
 477 2013-11-07 03:47:51 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: awesome, thanks
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 485 2013-11-07 03:56:52 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, for the relay mesh?
 486 2013-11-07 03:57:02 <BlueMatt> yea
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 506 2013-11-07 04:26:32 <radiator> Hi everyone. this question is for anybody interested. given that BTC guild recently mined 6 blocks in a row, could BTC guild insert their own fraudulent transactions into a block ?
 507 2013-11-07 04:27:09 <Luke-Jr> of course
 508 2013-11-07 04:28:08 <radiator> isn't this a problem for bitcoin ?
 509 2013-11-07 04:28:16 <berndj> who would accept those blocks?
 510 2013-11-07 04:28:34 <Luke-Jr> radiator: yes, encourage people to use pools that support decentralised mining
 511 2013-11-07 04:30:34 <radiator> berndj when a client parses a block, does it verify every transaction in the block? i thought the veririfcation of transactions was only done by miners. please correct if i'm wrong. in any case, even if BTC Guild wasn't going to create new transactions, it could possible modify existing ones - right? including changing the tx value , timestamps , etc.
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 513 2013-11-07 04:30:59 <berndj> IANABD but yes i thought every (full) node should verify each transaction
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 516 2013-11-07 04:31:54 <berndj> i thought the transaction would be signed, and any change to the amount would invalidate the signature
 517 2013-11-07 04:32:34 <radiator> hell the more i think about it…. if they can change the blockchain, they can really do anything. change inputs , outputs etc. it doesnt matter about the verification. waiting to be corrected by someone
 518 2013-11-07 04:33:00 <Luke-Jr> well yeah, miners can't do totally bogus transactions
 519 2013-11-07 04:33:07 <Luke-Jr> but they could double-spend
 520 2013-11-07 04:33:19 <berndj> isn't that totally bogus?
 521 2013-11-07 04:33:39 <berndj> or do you mean: confirm a double-spend wrt a tx stuck in the mempool
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 538 2013-11-07 04:49:14 <radiator> mining pools are bitcoins biggest weakness
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 543 2013-11-07 05:02:32 <BlueMatt> nice, despite all 4 relay nodes getting an inv from the same peer at the same time, three of them ended up getting the block faster from the first relay peer than from the node that sent the inv
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 545 2013-11-07 05:03:15 <BlueMatt> which is really just a race, but shows that the relay nodes are well-connected between each other
 546 2013-11-07 05:06:31 <Luke-Jr> it would help if nodes sent blocks to multiple peers at the same time
 547 2013-11-07 05:06:53 <Luke-Jr> last I checked, everything waited for Peer A (whoever requested it first) to get it entirely before anything else started
 548 2013-11-07 05:06:58 <Luke-Jr> (and continued one by one)
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 550 2013-11-07 05:11:02 <BlueMatt> hmm? do we not send the invs sequentially? I mean its pretty much all net latency
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 558 2013-11-07 05:21:56 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I mean we *could* be uploading the blocks to multiple peers at once for fast connections
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 561 2013-11-07 05:23:49 <BlueMatt> we essentially are
 562 2013-11-07 05:24:01 <BlueMatt> we're filling net buffers sequentially, but...meh
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 638 2013-11-07 07:42:21 <topi`> does anyone have any insight into why intersango is not sending my BTC withdrawal request? and the status page says "Delayed".
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 643 2013-11-07 07:47:47 <topi`> maybe their bitcoind has suffered from corrupt blockchain and has to resync
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 667 2013-11-07 08:21:55 <radiator> topi`:  yeah intersango is dead . it is used as collateral for the bitcoinica creditors , your deposits there could be seized at any time - stay clear
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 670 2013-11-07 08:26:04 <melvster> ;;asks 400
 671 2013-11-07 08:26:04 <gribble> There are currently 7272.7521 bitcoins offered at or under 400.0 USD, worth 2368309.60934 USD in total. | Data vintage: 187.8903 seconds
 672 2013-11-07 08:26:12 <melvster> ;;asks 500
 673 2013-11-07 08:26:12 <gribble> There are currently 8390.2046 bitcoins offered at or under 500.0 USD, worth 2882685.55728 USD in total. | Data vintage: 195.5697 seconds
 674 2013-11-07 08:31:33 <melvster> ;;asks 500
 675 2013-11-07 08:31:34 <gribble> There are currently 6875.768 bitcoins offered at or under 500.0 USD, worth 2431588.44893 USD in total. | Data vintage: 214.9100 seconds
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 685 2013-11-07 08:49:52 <gmaxwell> ;;ticker --high
 686 2013-11-07 08:49:53 <gribble> 309.68000
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 702 2013-11-07 09:26:35 <HaltingState> I am starting work on my open source 32 bit arm hardware wallet https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21517274/img/IMG_4218.JPG
 703 2013-11-07 09:26:42 <HaltingState> sipa, did you figure out the segfault?
 704 2013-11-07 09:29:30 <HaltingState> i am going to try to compile your library for 32 bit arm now
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 720 2013-11-07 09:54:53 <t7> how big is that lip balm?
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 724 2013-11-07 09:58:03 <HaltingState> t7, like 2"
 725 2013-11-07 09:58:05 <HaltingState> or 1.5"
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 733 2013-11-07 10:20:54 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, will you audit my hardware wallet when its done? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21517274/img/IMG_4220.JPG
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 738 2013-11-07 10:26:29 <HaltingState> sipa, i am getting likesecp256k1 to compile for 32 bit arm
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 742 2013-11-07 10:38:42 <TD> HaltingState: ooh, you are?
 743 2013-11-07 10:38:50 <TD> HaltingState: can you keep me informed as to how you get on?
 744 2013-11-07 10:38:53 <TD> i'm very interested in such work
 745 2013-11-07 10:44:11 <HaltingState> TD, ya; creating github repo
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 747 2013-11-07 10:44:25 <HaltingState> first thing is to get sha256 compiling and AES working on this microchip
 748 2013-11-07 10:44:26 <TD> thanks. i'd like to get a version on android
 749 2013-11-07 10:44:38 <TD> it shouldn't be that hard to compile, surely?
 750 2013-11-07 10:44:42 <TD> it has pure C versions for everything
 751 2013-11-07 10:44:48 <HaltingState> and then libsecp256k1 and then i am doing the dongle for the 2 factor auth and then setting up crypo
 752 2013-11-07 10:45:02 <CodeShark> the sample code for sha256 in C works pretty much out the box
 753 2013-11-07 10:45:19 <HaltingState> i would not do android; its insecure; this does not have kernel or OS that can be hacked
 754 2013-11-07 10:45:29 <HaltingState> but you could do 2 factor auth as android app
 755 2013-11-07 10:45:33 <CodeShark> dedicated hardware signing devices is the way to go
 756 2013-11-07 10:45:48 <CodeShark> the rest of account administration can be implemented on devices running android or whatever
 757 2013-11-07 10:45:54 <CodeShark> but signing should be a separate dedicated component
 758 2013-11-07 10:45:59 <HaltingState> the point of this is that if your computer has trojan; no one can steal your bitcoin; the private keys never leave these device and it only commnucates over a serial cable
 759 2013-11-07 10:46:13 <TD> like the trezor, ok
 760 2013-11-07 10:46:17 <TD> i just want faster signing on android :)
 761 2013-11-07 10:46:17 <HaltingState> and its going to have ECC and AES cryto
 762 2013-11-07 10:46:45 <CodeShark> why do you need AES?
 763 2013-11-07 10:46:54 <HaltingState> the difference between the trezor is that this is 2 factor auth; if someone steals your trezor they can get the bitcoin out; this the bitcoin is on server in a secure location and there is a dongle with keypad adn you have to put in pin to auth transaction
 764 2013-11-07 10:47:16 <HaltingState> and even if dongle is stolen, your bitcoin are safe; even if dongle is stolen and your computer is rootkitted; no one is getting the bitcoins
 765 2013-11-07 10:47:42 <HaltingState> and the server is "physically secure" its in a box and will nuke the keys if anyone opens the box
 766 2013-11-07 10:48:16 <HaltingState> and its intiated using deterministic wallet so if you know master phrase you can recover the wallet even if it nukes itself to prevent someone from gaining physical access
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 768 2013-11-07 10:48:56 <HaltingState> CodeShark, the private keys and key data is AES encrypted on flash and the AES keys are in RAM; if anyone tries gaining access to server, its going to forget the AES keys so no one can steal the bitcoin
 769 2013-11-07 10:49:14 <CodeShark> ok
 770 2013-11-07 10:49:46 <HaltingState> i am expoxying board before it goes into box so no one can access the electrical contacts and its going into a faraday cage and the serial inputs/outputs are going to  be optically isolated to prevent side channel attacks
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 772 2013-11-07 10:50:21 <HaltingState> and i am using constant time cryto implementation whenever possible
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 774 2013-11-07 10:51:16 <HaltingState> this is aimed at BCT-E and blochain.info and people that need military level security for their bitcoin private keys
 775 2013-11-07 10:51:16 <CodeShark> sounds cool - please let me know the github url when you have it up
 776 2013-11-07 10:52:00 <HaltingState> i am wondering if should do trezor/kickstarter type thing once i get it working; beacuse i think alot of people need this, to keep their bitcoin safe
 777 2013-11-07 10:53:26 <HaltingState> i need a cool name too, like "coin vault" or something that sounds secure
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 788 2013-11-07 11:03:50 <cazalla> bitcoinagotchi
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 790 2013-11-07 11:06:02 <t7> feed it or it dies... again
 791 2013-11-07 11:06:36 <HaltingState> lol
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 802 2013-11-07 11:25:44 <HaltingState> blinking LED!! w00t https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21517274/img/IMG_4222.JPG
 803 2013-11-07 11:27:46 <HaltingState> o0o0 its making a 1 Khz tone now; lol i can make it sing your bitcoin addresses
 804 2013-11-07 11:28:41 <t7> sweet, and receive over micc
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 807 2013-11-07 11:29:51 <bitnumus> android bitcoin wallet doesn't support bitcoin URI ?
 808 2013-11-07 11:30:01 <HaltingState> there is program for the mic thing, for linux you can apptget
 809 2013-11-07 11:30:03 <t7> HaltingState: if you wanted to produce these you would have to buy these arduino due boards at £40 each time?
 810 2013-11-07 11:30:10 <HaltingState> and it will take a file and sing it over the speakers
 811 2013-11-07 11:30:23 <wumpus> bitnumus: sure it does, it was the first client to support them AFAIK
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 813 2013-11-07 11:30:53 <HaltingState> t7, i can put a  1 GB memory stick, or 8 GB microSSD stick and have multiple users on the wallet with different keys and it could be cheap as hell ($10 /month?)
 814 2013-11-07 11:30:57 <HaltingState> each user needs a dongle
 815 2013-11-07 11:31:03 <bitnumus> wumpus, so when i send a bitcoi URI over NFC, why doesn't it look for it ?
 816 2013-11-07 11:31:04 <HaltingState> and for high security some users might want their own server
 817 2013-11-07 11:31:40 <HaltingState> and its not just the board; there is power equipment to electrical isolate it and epoxy on board and physical security/hosting
 818 2013-11-07 11:31:47 <wumpus> bitnumus: I don't know -- NFC should certainly be supported. With bitcoin wallet you mean Schildbach's I suppose?
 819 2013-11-07 11:32:09 <bitnumus> yea ^
 820 2013-11-07 11:32:13 <HaltingState> NFC would be something the dongle could support, but this is something that would sit in a cage in a vault
 821 2013-11-07 11:32:20 <bitnumus> i thought it should give me the option to open it
 822 2013-11-07 11:32:31 <HaltingState> and then the dongle is needed to authenicate the transactions but would never touch the keys
 823 2013-11-07 11:32:43 <wumpus> bitnumus: I'd think so too
 824 2013-11-07 11:32:44 <bitnumus> HaltingState, not sure what you are talking about or if its related to what i am
 825 2013-11-07 11:33:19 <bitnumus> i'm beaming a link
 826 2013-11-07 11:33:20 <TD> that should work
 827 2013-11-07 11:33:24 <bitnumus> bitcoin:address
 828 2013-11-07 11:33:28 <HaltingState> bitnumus, answering t7
 829 2013-11-07 11:33:30 <TD> i've used nfc a bunch of times
 830 2013-11-07 11:33:40 <TD> you have to make sure that your NFC tag is exposing the URI in the right way though
 831 2013-11-07 11:33:43 <TD> tag writer apps do the trick
 832 2013-11-07 11:33:53 <bitnumus> i'm using a SCL3711
 833 2013-11-07 11:33:56 <bitnumus> and nfcpy
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 835 2013-11-07 11:34:28 <TD> ok, then you'll have to debug it. the android app responds to the tags when they have the right mime type, nfc tag type etc
 836 2013-11-07 11:34:34 <TD> so look at the source code to see what it's looking for
 837 2013-11-07 11:34:48 <bitnumus> its popping up with NFC tag app
 838 2013-11-07 11:35:22 <bitnumus> hmm, ok i'll look into it a bit more
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 841 2013-11-07 11:37:39 <TD> great. if there's a bug in the android app we should just get it fixed
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 844 2013-11-07 11:42:21 <bitnumus> TD any ideas to debug
 845 2013-11-07 11:42:23 <bitnumus> ?
 846 2013-11-07 11:42:28 <bitnumus> URLs etc work fine
 847 2013-11-07 11:42:30 <bitnumus> bitcoin: doesn't work
 848 2013-11-07 11:42:31 <TD> look at adb logcat on your phone
 849 2013-11-07 11:42:35 <TD> so you can see debug output from the apps
 850 2013-11-07 11:42:45 <bitnumus> i don't know what you mean
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 852 2013-11-07 11:42:56 <bitnumus> no app is recognising it, thats the point
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 854 2013-11-07 11:44:22 <bitnumus> i have a tag reader, if i open with that it says 'unknown tag type'
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 859 2013-11-07 11:49:32 <TD> hmm
 860 2013-11-07 11:49:40 <TD> then i guess there's some issue with nfcpy or the way you're using it ?
 861 2013-11-07 11:49:45 <bitnumus> its an NFC issue for sure
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 875 2013-11-07 12:16:35 <HaltingState> ahhh the wires https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21517274/img/IMG_4223.JPG
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 937 2013-11-07 12:47:28 <ikbenwouter> anyone know what's going on with the conf time spike?
 938 2013-11-07 12:47:30 <ikbenwouter> http://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time
 939 2013-11-07 12:48:01 <lianj> retarget?
 940 2013-11-07 12:49:14 <ikbenwouter> I hear people compaining about slow first confs for their tx'es and found the spike
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 958 2013-11-07 13:16:00 <TD> ikbenwouter: not sure what's up with that. seems like it's coming down now though
 959 2013-11-07 13:16:06 <TD> we really really need better monitoring
 960 2013-11-07 13:16:46 <TD> but yeah seems to be retarget related
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 962 2013-11-07 13:20:56 <phantomcircuit> TD, gox had a ton of txs they had to dump
 963 2013-11-07 13:21:11 <TD> hm?
 964 2013-11-07 13:21:22 <phantomcircuit> the avg confirmation time
 965 2013-11-07 13:21:25 <TD> ah
 966 2013-11-07 13:21:29 <TD> you think they evicted everyone
 967 2013-11-07 13:21:35 <phantomcircuit> they had a bunch of txs that didn't make it to the network
 968 2013-11-07 13:21:46 <phantomcircuit> and then all of a sudden thousands of them
 969 2013-11-07 13:21:58 <TD> i see
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 971 2013-11-07 13:22:07 <TD> possibly they fixed the maturity bug or something
 972 2013-11-07 13:22:16 <TD> i really wish we had a long-term graph of size per block
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 974 2013-11-07 13:22:23 <TD> long+short term
 975 2013-11-07 13:22:28 <gulli> hmm, to me it seems that Bitstamp is not using a cold storage
 976 2013-11-07 13:22:46 <gulli> if you withdraw from the exchange it comes straight away
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 978 2013-11-07 13:23:20 <TD> cold storage just means they minimize the size of their hot wallet
 979 2013-11-07 13:23:22 <K1773R> gulli: so? that dosnt mean that the spare funds arent in cold storage...
 980 2013-11-07 13:23:23 <TD> it doesn't mean all coins are offline
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 984 2013-11-07 13:25:43 <ikbenwouter> phantomcircuit, makes sense, thanks for this explanation
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 987 2013-11-07 13:26:59 <gulli> spare funds mean nothing, if everyones private keys are in the hot wallet and it gets compramised they are never going to be able to pay everyone off
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 990 2013-11-07 13:27:28 <gulli> i.e. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6687795
 991 2013-11-07 13:30:31 <sipa> gulli: the point is that there is no "someone's private key"
 992 2013-11-07 13:30:46 <sipa> gulli: they just maintain a hot wallet with some keys, and a cold wallet with other keys
 993 2013-11-07 13:30:52 reneg has joined
 994 2013-11-07 13:30:56 <sipa> and track how much belongs to each customer
 995 2013-11-07 13:31:05 <sipa> rather than keeping specific keys for each customer
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 997 2013-11-07 13:31:55 <gulli> hmm ok
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 999 2013-11-07 13:33:20 <gulli> im trying to figure out which is a better approach, make specific addresses tied to a user or not.
1000 2013-11-07 13:34:08 <sipa> you have specific addresses, for which spends TO them credit a specific customer
1001 2013-11-07 13:34:56 <sipa> but you don't use the amount of coins assigned to those addresses to track balances
1002 2013-11-07 13:35:11 <sipa> just keep a database entry that gets incremented when a payment to a particular user confirms
1003 2013-11-07 13:35:33 <sipa> then you're free to move funds between cold and hot wallets as needed, without impacting balances
1004 2013-11-07 13:35:34 <gulli> I didnt get the first sentence, they generate specific addresses for the user to send them bitcoin
1005 2013-11-07 13:35:44 <sipa> "they" ?
1006 2013-11-07 13:35:52 <gulli> bitstamp
1007 2013-11-07 13:36:07 cybermoron has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1008 2013-11-07 13:36:08 <sipa> yes
1009 2013-11-07 13:36:24 <sipa> so they tie that address to a particular user
1010 2013-11-07 13:36:35 <sipa> and whenever coins arrive at that address, they credit that user's account
1011 2013-11-07 13:36:45 <sipa> but afterwards, the coins can move
1012 2013-11-07 13:36:53 <sipa> inside their system
1013 2013-11-07 13:37:03 <sipa> (at least, that's what i'd hope they do)
1014 2013-11-07 13:37:10 <gulli> ok thanks, it makes sence
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1024 2013-11-07 13:56:34 <gulli> Bitstamp is most likely using armory, right?
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1028 2013-11-07 14:00:00 <petertodd> re: inputs.io - got 1.16BTC back on ~1.7BTC deposit. Not half bad - seems that the current batch of off-chain guys are learning their lessons re: user-auth and cold storage. I wonder how long it'll take until they finally start getting into trusted computing w/ remote attestation?
1029 2013-11-07 14:00:00 owowo has joined
1030 2013-11-07 14:00:05 <petertodd> That's what it's going to take...
1031 2013-11-07 14:01:54 <Happzz> in order to use the testnet, i need the same bitcoind, right?
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1035 2013-11-07 14:06:00 <stonecoldpat0> they need typrwriters
1036 2013-11-07 14:06:04 <stonecoldpat0> best protection you can have
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1046 2013-11-07 14:24:38 <TD> petertodd: or just not existing ....
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1050 2013-11-07 14:31:18 <helo> figuring out the security practices that actually work for these services would benefit everyone
1051 2013-11-07 14:32:26 <helo> as much as it sucks for the people whose funds are stolen
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1057 2013-11-07 14:38:04 <TD> the best security practice is to not give your bitcoins to other people
1058 2013-11-07 14:38:05 <TD> local wallets all the way
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1061 2013-11-07 14:39:12 <diki> TD:Yes, let's all hoard our bitcoins and die without ever using them.
1062 2013-11-07 14:39:28 <TD> you know what i meant :)
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1068 2013-11-07 14:48:58 <Eliel> interesting... bitcoind made a 5kb transaction with no fee at all. I thought all transactions above certain size limit would get a fee no matter what.
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1070 2013-11-07 14:49:28 <sipa> Eliel: really? what version?
1071 2013-11-07 14:49:46 <Eliel>     "version" : 80500,
1072 2013-11-07 14:49:55 <sipa> can i have the txid?
1073 2013-11-07 14:50:10 <Eliel> I /msgd you the txid
1074 2013-11-07 14:52:14 <sipa> Eliel: up to 26 kB can be free, apparently
1075 2013-11-07 14:53:15 <Eliel> I guess the limit's been increased. I'd better configure bitcoind to always include a fee.
1076 2013-11-07 14:53:50 <Eliel> earlier I figured it wouldn't be necessary since we only make rather big ones
1077 2013-11-07 14:54:31 <sipa> TD: i remember we tried to figure out what bitcoind versions c' decker's paper used data from for their propagation speed measurements
1078 2013-11-07 14:54:35 <sipa> TD: do you?
1079 2013-11-07 14:54:43 <TD> no, but you said it was pre-0.8
1080 2013-11-07 14:55:03 <diki> estimat
1081 2013-11-07 14:55:05 <diki> estimate
1082 2013-11-07 14:55:16 <diki> come on faster gribble
1083 2013-11-07 14:55:31 <diki> bc,estimate
1084 2013-11-07 14:55:33 <sipa> TD: apparently block 180000-190000
1085 2013-11-07 14:56:02 <sipa> so until juli 2012
1086 2013-11-07 14:56:34 <sipa> which means at most 0.6.3
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1088 2013-11-07 14:56:50 <TD> yes
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1095 2013-11-07 15:02:43 <HaltingState> bitcoin hardware wallet progress https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21517274/img/IMG_4226.JPG
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1097 2013-11-07 15:04:02 <Eliel> sipa: did 0.8.5 support adding a fee to a pre-existing transaction in any way yet?
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1099 2013-11-07 15:06:31 <sipa> Eliel: no, that's impossible
1100 2013-11-07 15:06:52 <sipa> the best you can do is create a conflicting transaction that double-spends the first
1101 2013-11-07 15:08:06 <sipa> transaction replacement under certain conditions could allow that
1102 2013-11-07 15:08:29 <sipa> but that's disabled for now
1103 2013-11-07 15:08:31 Neil has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1104 2013-11-07 15:08:34 <HaltingState> sipa, ^^
1105 2013-11-07 15:08:40 <HaltingState> i am getting your library to compile on arm
1106 2013-11-07 15:08:47 <HaltingState> for my hardware wallet
1107 2013-11-07 15:09:19 <sipa> cool
1108 2013-11-07 15:09:26 <sipa> HaltingState: haven't looked at the segfault
1109 2013-11-07 15:09:33 <HaltingState> sipa, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21517274/img/IMG_4226.JPG
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1115 2013-11-07 15:15:16 <Eliel> sipa: aren't there some pools already that prioritize transactions also based on the fees of transactions that depend on them?
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1117 2013-11-07 15:16:04 <sipa> Eliel: yes, but that's not relevant
1118 2013-11-07 15:16:14 <sipa> you still need to be able to replace an older transaction
1119 2013-11-07 15:16:24 <sipa> prioritization is about what enters a block
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1121 2013-11-07 15:16:28 <sipa> not what enters the mempool
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1124 2013-11-07 15:17:23 <sipa> petertodd's been working on a mempool that does allow that, under certain conditions
1125 2013-11-07 15:18:16 <Eliel> sipa: what I mean is, if I figure out which of the outputs is the change output and spend that with big enough fee for both itself and this 0-fee transaction, aren't there some pools that would then prioritize this first transactions due to the big fee in the followup tx?
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1127 2013-11-07 15:18:35 <sipa> Eliel: oh, yes
1128 2013-11-07 15:18:40 <sipa> Eliel: sorry, i didn't make the connection
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1130 2013-11-07 15:18:47 <sipa> i believe eligius does that indeed
1131 2013-11-07 15:19:09 GingerGeek[Away] has joined
1132 2013-11-07 15:19:32 <Eliel> only eligius? rather slim hope in that case but I guess still worth trying.
1133 2013-11-07 15:19:38 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
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1139 2013-11-07 15:21:46 <imton> hi guys
1140 2013-11-07 15:21:46 <petertodd> Eliel: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg03126.html <- tx-replacement to bump fees
1141 2013-11-07 15:21:58 <imton> I am trying to compile bitcoin in ubuntu 13
1142 2013-11-07 15:22:08 <firedrops> who has the best gold for btc service?
1143 2013-11-07 15:22:30 <petertodd> Eliel: eligius and one other pool, I forget which, do "child-pays-for-parent" fee evaluation. However we need to also change the way transactions are relayed to really make it useful.
1144 2013-11-07 15:22:32 <imton> I getting Berkeley DB and Boost lib probelms
1145 2013-11-07 15:22:35 <imton> *problems
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1153 2013-11-07 15:35:49 <firedrops> GOLD - DO YOU SELL IT!
1154 2013-11-07 15:35:51 <firedrops> ?
1155 2013-11-07 15:35:54 <firedrops> for btc?
1156 2013-11-07 15:36:11 <sipa> firedrops: see #bitcoin or #bitcoin-otc, not here
1157 2013-11-07 15:36:17 <pigeons> firedrops: the is -dev, try #bitcoin-otc
1158 2013-11-07 15:36:27 <firedrops> crappers, wrong chan, my bad guys.
1159 2013-11-07 15:36:33 * firedrops smacks himself.
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1161 2013-11-07 15:36:58 <imton> guys, any idea how can I compile under Ubuntu 13 without getting BDB and Boost lib errors?
1162 2013-11-07 15:37:18 <sipa> imton: by installing the dependencies
1163 2013-11-07 15:37:35 <imton> sipa: yeah, I did that :)
1164 2013-11-07 15:37:37 <imton> didn't work
1165 2013-11-07 15:37:56 <sipa> which version of the client, and which ubuntu version?
1166 2013-11-07 15:38:09 <sipa> there is known issues with git head under 13.10
1167 2013-11-07 15:38:49 <sipa> bdb should be fine if you either install a 4.8 backport, or use --with-incompatible-bdb
1168 2013-11-07 15:39:00 <sipa> boost needs a manual install of 1.53 or 1.54
1169 2013-11-07 15:39:05 <imton> sipa: I am trying to merge current master bitcoin with your watch only branch and compile it
1170 2013-11-07 15:39:37 <imton> I can't get to install boost properly.
1171 2013-11-07 15:39:59 <imton> this is the boost error
1172 2013-11-07 15:39:59 <imton> checking whether the Boost::System library is available... yes
1173 2013-11-07 15:39:59 <imton> configure: error: Could not find a version of the library!
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1175 2013-11-07 15:41:10 <imton> I have libboost1.53-dev
1176 2013-11-07 15:41:12 <imton> installed
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1182 2013-11-07 15:46:00 <sipa> imton: you'll need to install the specific boost libraries
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1184 2013-11-07 15:46:33 <imton> sipa: may i know how? I even tried to manually compile boost and it failed
1185 2013-11-07 15:46:41 <sipa> no need for that
1186 2013-11-07 15:47:12 <sipa> just install libboost-system1.53-dev for example
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1190 2013-11-07 15:47:26 <MiningBuddy> test
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1192 2013-11-07 15:47:33 <sipa> but you'll need more than just that one
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1194 2013-11-07 15:48:56 <imton> sipa: should boost install libraries in /usr/lib ?
1195 2013-11-07 15:49:02 <sipa> yes
1196 2013-11-07 15:49:03 <imton> because it doesn't add anything there to me
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1198 2013-11-07 15:49:20 <sipa> use dpkg -L <package> to see what it installs
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1200 2013-11-07 15:49:43 <imton> sipa: ok
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1202 2013-11-07 15:50:24 <Eliel> ok, I've got a rawtransaction made that should have enough fee. The only problem is, how do I check that? Are there any tools for checking how big of a fee a transaction has before broadcasting it?
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1205 2013-11-07 15:50:58 <sipa> Eliel: i don't think so, and that does sound useful
1206 2013-11-07 15:51:17 <sipa> i wonder whether a checkrawtransaction rpc would make sense to query such things
1207 2013-11-07 15:51:50 <Eliel> if you ask me, decoderawtransaction should do it.
1208 2013-11-07 15:52:04 <sipa> i don't think so
1209 2013-11-07 15:52:08 <sipa> it's not a decoding issue
1210 2013-11-07 15:52:16 <sipa> as it requires checking against the UTXO set
1211 2013-11-07 15:52:31 <sipa> which will only work for unsubmitted transactions
1212 2013-11-07 15:53:15 <sipa> i'd prefer decoderawtransaction to remain a pure rpc call, which doesn't depend on a functional node
1213 2013-11-07 15:53:18 gigantic has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1214 2013-11-07 15:54:59 <Eliel> maybe something like analyzerawtransaction then.
1215 2013-11-07 15:55:14 <Eliel> check is a bit vague
1216 2013-11-07 15:55:34 <imton> sipa: let's start by asking, is this error only shown for boost?  "configure: error: Could not find a version of the library!"
1217 2013-11-07 15:55:52 <imton> sipa: may be it is not boost what is going on wrong with me
1218 2013-11-07 15:56:04 <sipa> are you on 13.10?
1219 2013-11-07 15:57:02 <imton> sipa: yes
1220 2013-11-07 15:57:03 gigantic_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1221 2013-11-07 15:57:14 <sipa> then it's likely a boost issue
1222 2013-11-07 15:57:21 MobPhone has joined
1223 2013-11-07 15:57:37 <imton> ok, which version should I downgrade to/
1224 2013-11-07 15:57:38 <sipa> i don't know the details, but someone figured out that you need to install some extra boost packages on 13.10 to make it work
1225 2013-11-07 15:57:39 <imton> ?
1226 2013-11-07 15:57:43 <sipa> sorry, no idea
1227 2013-11-07 15:57:52 <imton> 13.04? 12?
1228 2013-11-07 15:58:01 <sipa> oh, ubuntu
1229 2013-11-07 15:58:03 <sipa> 13.04 will work
1230 2013-11-07 15:58:05 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1231 2013-11-07 15:58:06 <imton> :)
1232 2013-11-07 15:58:13 <sipa> 13.10 also works if you install the right packages
1233 2013-11-07 15:58:21 <sipa> if you search through the issues list, you may find it
1234 2013-11-07 15:58:33 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1235 2013-11-07 15:58:39 <imton> sipa: great. will find out now
1236 2013-11-07 15:59:37 <sipa>  libboost-{system,filesystem,chrono,program-options,thread,test}1.54{-dev,.0}
1237 2013-11-07 15:59:44 <sipa> you need to install those
1238 2013-11-07 15:59:49 <sipa> on 13.10
1239 2013-11-07 16:01:19 <imton> 1.53 will work?
1240 2013-11-07 16:01:39 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1241 2013-11-07 16:01:48 <sipa> i don't know
1242 2013-11-07 16:01:55 <sipa> i'm just reporting what someone else found out
1243 2013-11-07 16:02:06 <imton> ok. "libboost-all-dev" is installing me 1.53
1244 2013-11-07 16:02:23 abrkn has joined
1245 2013-11-07 16:02:27 <sipa> then that's probably not going to work
1246 2013-11-07 16:02:34 <imton> may i know here you find this info? i didn't find anything
1247 2013-11-07 16:02:42 <sipa> in irc logs
1248 2013-11-07 16:02:47 <imton> oh :) smart
1249 2013-11-07 16:04:29 patcon has joined
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1255 2013-11-07 16:11:51 <Eliel> hmmh, local bitcoind appears to have accepted the transaction but it's not showing up on blockchain.info. Looks like I managed to get the fee right though.
1256 2013-11-07 16:12:37 ralphtheninja has joined
1257 2013-11-07 16:12:46 <Eliel> hopefully the transaction get broadcasted and isn't just stuck in the local bitcoind only.
1258 2013-11-07 16:12:47 OneFixt_ has joined
1259 2013-11-07 16:13:34 <imton> sipa: that line made it work! now it read boost. It seems by default is installing 1.53 which isn't compatible with ubuntu 13.10, 1.54 seems fine
1260 2013-11-07 16:14:01 <imton> sipa: thank yuo
1261 2013-11-07 16:14:03 <imton> *you
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1264 2013-11-07 16:15:00 ProfMac has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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1266 2013-11-07 16:17:28 <gulli> SO do you think bitstamp and mtgox use Armory or some inhouse solution?
1267 2013-11-07 16:17:29 ProfMac has joined
1268 2013-11-07 16:17:46 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1269 2013-11-07 16:17:46 <sipa> imton: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3219
1270 2013-11-07 16:18:40 qwertyoruiop has joined
1271 2013-11-07 16:19:12 <imton> sipa: awesome!
1272 2013-11-07 16:20:43 gjj_ has joined
1273 2013-11-07 16:23:25 <dooglus_> I have a strange issue
1274 2013-11-07 16:23:59 <dooglus_> I sent a transaction using bitcoind, got a txid back, the transaction confirmed, but 'getrawtransaction' tells me error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
1275 2013-11-07 16:24:23 <Eliel> it worked! :)
1276 2013-11-07 16:24:26 <dooglus_> $ bitcoind getrawtransaction 4e558bcab9977ec9e049a24b3c3f27a76882488ec5b24866939a7463200ebb48
1277 2013-11-07 16:24:30 <dooglus_> error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
1278 2013-11-07 16:24:37 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1279 2013-11-07 16:24:43 bmcgee has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1280 2013-11-07 16:25:10 <dooglus_> but http://blockchain.info/block-index/438480/0000000000000001e3d17a69bfdc1f3a8451ec48652aa7561156f0b22a16fc13 shows the tx
1281 2013-11-07 16:25:13 paracyst has joined
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1283 2013-11-07 16:25:32 <dooglus_> and my bitcoind has that block!:
1284 2013-11-07 16:25:32 <dooglus_> $ bitcoind getblockhash 268416
1285 2013-11-07 16:25:35 <dooglus_> 0000000000000001e3d17a69bfdc1f3a8451ec48652aa7561156f0b22a16fc13
1286 2013-11-07 16:25:40 <dooglus_> so wtf?
1287 2013-11-07 16:26:33 eristisk has joined
1288 2013-11-07 16:27:30 <sipa> dooglus_: do you have a transaction index enabled?
1289 2013-11-07 16:27:47 Elmf has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1293 2013-11-07 16:30:52 <dooglus_> sipa: I didn't explicitly do so - but the bitcoind that can't find the tx created the tx...
1294 2013-11-07 16:31:08 <sipa> dooglus_: gettransaction queries the wallet, and will find it
1295 2013-11-07 16:31:17 djcoin has joined
1296 2013-11-07 16:31:22 <sipa> getrawtransaction queries the blockchain database, and without txindex, it won't find anything
1297 2013-11-07 16:31:31 <dooglus_> I've never had getrawtransaction fail before
1298 2013-11-07 16:31:59 <sipa> it works for transactions whose outputs aren't spent yet (they can be found in the UTXO set, which always exists)
1299 2013-11-07 16:32:25 HaltingState has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1300 2013-11-07 16:32:56 <dooglus_> aah
1301 2013-11-07 16:33:13 <dooglus_> funny that I've never seen this issue before - I've run getrawtransaction hundreds of times
1302 2013-11-07 16:33:17 <sipa> dooglus_: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3220
1303 2013-11-07 16:33:32 abrkn\ has joined
1304 2013-11-07 16:33:43 <dooglus_> so can I get the raw transaction somehow without turning on the tx index?
1305 2013-11-07 16:34:14 <dooglus_> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3221
1306 2013-11-07 16:34:16 HaltingState has joined
1307 2013-11-07 16:34:25 <dooglus_> maybe close it, or link to 3220?
1308 2013-11-07 16:35:07 t7 has quit (Quit: home)
1309 2013-11-07 16:35:08 <sipa> dooglus_: there is no way to query the wallet for a raw transaction afaik; i've added that as an extra goal to 3220
1310 2013-11-07 16:35:15 <sipa> i agree that should be possible, and without txindex
1311 2013-11-07 16:35:31 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1312 2013-11-07 16:35:56 <dooglus_> is it expensive to turn the txindex on?
1313 2013-11-07 16:35:56 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1314 2013-11-07 16:36:22 <sipa> turning it on is expensive (you need to reindex)
1315 2013-11-07 16:36:34 <sipa> maintaining it not so much (it adds a database of about 1 GB)
1316 2013-11-07 16:37:00 <dooglus_> ok.  I guess the reason I never saw this before is because I usually only want the rawtx for unconfirmed transactions
1317 2013-11-07 16:37:07 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1318 2013-11-07 16:37:08 <dooglus_> which will have unspent outputs
1319 2013-11-07 16:37:51 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1320 2013-11-07 16:38:20 <dooglus_> thanks for your help - I was worried there for a minute
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1324 2013-11-07 16:38:49 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
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1326 2013-11-07 16:39:40 <bitnumus> don't suppose anyone happens to have the correct format for an NDEF message for NFC, for a bitcoin URI ?
1327 2013-11-07 16:42:28 SwapperMall has joined
1328 2013-11-07 16:43:49 <BlueMatt> TD: I like that your G+ post is now being quoted in "mainstream" media
1329 2013-11-07 16:44:03 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: leaving)
1330 2013-11-07 16:44:06 <TD> i'm not sure i like it. guardian, reuters, the independent ....
1331 2013-11-07 16:44:17 <TD> but what goes viral on social networks is very unpredictable
1332 2013-11-07 16:44:18 <BlueMatt> thats what I assumed, but its fun
1333 2013-11-07 16:44:34 agnostic98 has joined
1334 2013-11-07 16:44:57 <BlueMatt> TD: btw, adding my gmail as cc on a bug is largely useless, I dont check that folder as often as I do the regular bitcoin-subscriptions folder anyway
1335 2013-11-07 16:45:00 <Ry4an> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1623#comic
1336 2013-11-07 16:45:07 <TD> i was wondering about that
1337 2013-11-07 16:45:09 <TD> what email should i add ?
1338 2013-11-07 16:45:18 <Ry4an> ^-- the press interpreting science/tech
1339 2013-11-07 16:45:36 <petertodd> Ry4an: lol
1340 2013-11-07 16:45:37 <TD> bitnumus: you could scan the android app when it's on the send coins screen and see
1341 2013-11-07 16:45:53 <BlueMatt> TD: I already get the emails, but if you really wanna cc me, you could add bugs@bluematt.me
1342 2013-11-07 16:45:53 <sipa> TD: it was funny when i saw random twitter followees tweeting a link to your post :)
1343 2013-11-07 16:46:08 * TD kicks maven
1344 2013-11-07 16:46:18 <TD> BlueMatt: okie dokie, bugs@bluematt.me it is
1345 2013-11-07 16:46:41 <TD> sipa: i was watching the +1/reshare count go up and yesterday and remember thinkin, oh crap, this is going to hit the news if it doesn't slow down soon
1346 2013-11-07 16:46:47 * TD wonders what his mother will think, haha
1347 2013-11-07 16:46:51 <sipa> haha
1348 2013-11-07 16:47:13 <BlueMatt> heh
1349 2013-11-07 16:47:27 * BlueMatt goes to set bugs@bluematt.me to go to the right folder...
1350 2013-11-07 16:48:08 fluidjax has joined
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1352 2013-11-07 16:49:07 <petertodd> Ry4an: I'd have to find it again, but there was a remarkable good writeup of the selfish miner thing in... reuters maybe? that surprisingly got it right
1353 2013-11-07 16:49:08 abrkn\ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1355 2013-11-07 16:49:41 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
1356 2013-11-07 16:50:38 <petertodd> Ry4an: of course instead I wound up getting somewhat misquoted in http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24534-bitcoin-flaw-could-threaten-booming-virtual-currency.html#.UnvDm9U5Bfw
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1366 2013-11-07 16:55:16 <Ry4an> INFO 2013-11-07 16:52:24,430 models 26 140003151558400 Attempt to use aka_country refused -- no access
1367 2013-11-07 16:55:19 <Ry4an> DEBUG 2013-11-07 16:52:24,505 models 26 140003151558400 is_provisioned series=1, country=6 result=True
1368 2013-11-07 16:55:35 <Ry4an> so that's saying you don't have permission to use aka_country
1369 2013-11-07 16:55:48 <TD> BlueMatt: you have a glass?
1370 2013-11-07 16:55:55 <Ry4an> dammit!  wrong channel.  Sorry.
1371 2013-11-07 16:56:15 Belxjander has joined
1372 2013-11-07 16:56:18 <BlueMatt> TD: yes, got it like 30 minutes ago :)
1373 2013-11-07 16:56:32 <TD> does it ... you know
1374 2013-11-07 16:56:34 <TD> work
1375 2013-11-07 16:56:55 <BlueMatt> heh, yes, it roughly does, though Im in lecture so I cant exactly start screaming "ok, glass"...
1376 2013-11-07 16:57:42 <TD> chatting on irc is no problem though :)
1377 2013-11-07 16:58:26 <BlueMatt> as long as its not audible...though I do know the prof and he did ask what I was doing in the middle of lecture.....
1378 2013-11-07 16:59:40 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1397 2013-11-07 17:30:51 <berndj> BlueMatt, just FYI i got an answer from the guy who used to be a big miner here in south africa. said he had 10GH/s, but he stopped when FPGAs were very new
1398 2013-11-07 17:31:03 <berndj> nothing to write home about these days, but i'm sure he wasn't the only one
1399 2013-11-07 17:35:30 Anduck has joined
1400 2013-11-07 17:35:30 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
1401 2013-11-07 17:35:30 Anduck has joined
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1404 2013-11-07 17:37:29 kfreds has joined
1405 2013-11-07 17:43:33 <TD> i just got an email from an executive recruiter that's got a PGP signature attached
1406 2013-11-07 17:43:36 <TD> the world is changing ...
1407 2013-11-07 17:44:16 <kfreds> Hi! There's something I don't get about locktime, IsFinal and sequence numbers. I'd love to be enlightened. I'm looking at a tx that's in a block, where locktime hasn't passed, and sequence number is not MAX, so this tx shouldn't be IsFinal. And shouldn't that mean it can't be included in a block?
1408 2013-11-07 17:44:31 <TD> correct
1409 2013-11-07 17:44:54 <kfreds> So then how is it in a block?
1410 2013-11-07 17:45:01 <kfreds> Here's the tx in question: 13e100dd08b6da0a7426ea520b0bb3ae54cef79dd045e2e4f7116023df3a5c95
1411 2013-11-07 17:46:26 <TD> sigh. i miss having a block explorer that actually showed everything
1412 2013-11-07 17:46:50 <lianj> everything?
1413 2013-11-07 17:47:14 <kfreds> Correction. I see now that nlocktime has actually passed on that tx.. now. I got the tx from this conversation: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5783/transactions-with-a-wait-time-using-nlocktime
1414 2013-11-07 17:48:09 <TD> has it?
1415 2013-11-07 17:48:15 <TD> it was locked until 198370
1416 2013-11-07 17:48:25 <TD> and appeared in block 198359
1417 2013-11-07 17:49:08 <kfreds> Doh. You're right. Sorry.
1418 2013-11-07 17:49:30 <kfreds> Anyway, that doesn't make sense to me. What am I missing?
1419 2013-11-07 17:49:31 <TD> i must be misremembering the rules or something. you're right that it's not clear how this tx was considered final
1420 2013-11-07 17:50:31 <TD> sipa, BlueMatt: any idea how this works? http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/13e100dd08b6da0a7426ea520b0bb3ae54cef79dd045e2e4f7116023df3a5c95
1421 2013-11-07 17:50:38 <TD> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/13e100dd08b6da0a7426ea520b0bb3ae54cef79dd045e2e4f7116023df3a5c95
1422 2013-11-07 17:50:46 <TD> appeared in block 198359
1423 2013-11-07 17:50:51 <TD> input sequence number is 1
1424 2013-11-07 17:50:58 <kfreds> TD: Here's the IsFinal definition according to theymos back in '12: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5914/how-is-locktime-enforced-in-the-standard-client
1425 2013-11-07 17:52:44 <TD> i hope there isn't a bug with the logic that checks for finality
1426 2013-11-07 17:54:37 bitspill has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1431 2013-11-07 18:01:25 <kfreds> TD: Ah, I made an assumption that seq_no was in scriptSig, but that doesn't make any sense now that I think about it. That's why there's no ffff..., and blockexplorer.com doesn't expose it.
1432 2013-11-07 18:01:40 <kfreds> Or doesn't seem to at least.
1433 2013-11-07 18:01:49 <TD> it's not a part of script
1434 2013-11-07 18:02:20 <sipa> TD: is nLockTime 0xFFFFFFFF?
1435 2013-11-07 18:02:26 <sipa> or 0, what is it
1436 2013-11-07 18:02:36 <sipa> in which case it's always final
1437 2013-11-07 18:03:26 <TD> 1
1438 2013-11-07 18:03:37 <TD> final means UINT_MAX
1439 2013-11-07 18:03:46 <TD> no, wait
1440 2013-11-07 18:03:51 <TD> you're thinking of sequence numbers
1441 2013-11-07 18:03:58 <kfreds> Yep.
1442 2013-11-07 18:04:03 <TD> that tx has a lock time of 10 blocks ahead of where it was really confirmed, and a seq no of 1
1443 2013-11-07 18:04:28 <kfreds> TD: You verified the seq_no?
1444 2013-11-07 18:04:41 <TD> it's in the raw dump i linked to
1445 2013-11-07 18:04:45 <TD> http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/13e100dd08b6da0a7426ea520b0bb3ae54cef79dd045e2e4f7116023df3a5c95
1446 2013-11-07 18:04:51 <TD> oh, no, wait
1447 2013-11-07 18:04:53 <TD> i got confused
1448 2013-11-07 18:05:08 <TD> the sequence number isn't shown in this dump. so, presumably it's the default
1449 2013-11-07 18:05:09 <TD> that'
1450 2013-11-07 18:05:17 <TD> that's why it confirmed "early". whoever made the tx didn't do it right
1451 2013-11-07 18:05:18 <kfreds> That's what I said :)
1452 2013-11-07 18:05:19 <sipa> right, i was confusing
1453 2013-11-07 18:05:44 <TD> i was reading the "n" field but of course that's index of the prevout
1454 2013-11-07 18:05:49 <TD> basically all block explorers suck
1455 2013-11-07 18:07:01 <kfreds> Uhm, I was gonna verify it, but I can't getrawtransaction. Does that not work?
1456 2013-11-07 18:07:04 <chmod755> anyone here with bootstrap.dat downloaded online?
1457 2013-11-07 18:07:58 <kfreds> Oh, I see, I can't get it unless it's part of my wallet?
1458 2013-11-07 18:10:11 <TD> correct. or unless you run with the -txindex flag
1459 2013-11-07 18:10:18 <TD> but that will take forever to reindex
1460 2013-11-07 18:10:41 <imton> guys. I have bitcoind in a server, I want to query using RCP. The server is behind  a firewall... I can't get connection with it
1461 2013-11-07 18:10:51 <imton> what other port apart from the RPC port should I enabled?
1462 2013-11-07 18:10:57 <imton> allow, sorry
1463 2013-11-07 18:11:23 kis has joined
1464 2013-11-07 18:11:27 <sipa> you should set the -rpcallowip
1465 2013-11-07 18:11:31 <sipa> parameter
1466 2013-11-07 18:11:40 <sipa> by default only localhost connections are allowed
1467 2013-11-07 18:12:19 <kfreds> TD: Thanks :)
1468 2013-11-07 18:14:02 <kfreds> TD: So basically in the SE question I linked, they incorrectly assume that the output can't be spent until the nlocktime block, because the sequence_no is UINT_MAX, which means the tx IsFinal.
1469 2013-11-07 18:14:42 <kfreds> Furthermore, IsFinal is a requirement for being in a block, AND all tx that are in a block can be spent by a valid input script?
1470 2013-11-07 18:15:27 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1471 2013-11-07 18:15:32 ds is now known as away!ds@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-kqsgikodvlabxlrd|dongshengcn
1472 2013-11-07 18:17:03 <TD> yes
1473 2013-11-07 18:17:11 <TD> well, no
1474 2013-11-07 18:17:15 <TD> scriptPubKey is sort of weird
1475 2013-11-07 18:17:23 <TD> it can contain invalid scripts of various kinds
1476 2013-11-07 18:17:28 <TD> rendering the money destroyed
1477 2013-11-07 18:18:38 es has joined
1478 2013-11-07 18:20:19 <BlueMatt> berndj: alright, fair enough, I assumed there isnt much outside of us/europe/jpy/au, so Im just targeting those for now
1479 2013-11-07 18:20:27 <BlueMatt> if anyone has complaints, they should email me :)
1480 2013-11-07 18:22:12 <kfreds> TD: Sure, assuming that's not the case :)
1481 2013-11-07 18:25:12 TD is now known as TD[away]
1482 2013-11-07 18:25:34 <kfreds> Here's another question: Does nLockTime and sequence_no impact whether the tx IsStandard, as long as the tx IsFinal?
1483 2013-11-07 18:26:00 <sipa> standardness, finalness and validity are unrelated afaik
1484 2013-11-07 18:26:09 <kfreds> Excellent :)
1485 2013-11-07 18:26:13 * kfreds muahaha
1486 2013-11-07 18:26:43 <kfreds> Also, thank sipa :)
1487 2013-11-07 18:28:03 es has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1488 2013-11-07 18:29:36 Celegrom has joined
1489 2013-11-07 18:29:44 <Celegrom> Greetings
1490 2013-11-07 18:30:16 <Celegrom> Does anyone have any experience with Scapy? More specifically creating new protocols using Scapy?
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1526 2013-11-07 19:30:13 <sipa> HaltingState: i fixed a bug in ecdsa key recovery
1527 2013-11-07 19:31:26 <HaltingState> sipa, what was it?
1528 2013-11-07 19:31:37 <sipa> HaltingState: an overflow when recid >= 2
1529 2013-11-07 19:31:52 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/commit/ad52495d723648948970850f01a9445d061e85f7
1530 2013-11-07 19:32:23 <HaltingState> i am trying to decide what cables to use for my bitcoin hardware wallet
1531 2013-11-07 19:32:24 <HaltingState> http://www.doublehelixcables.com/store/images/bel4.jpg
1532 2013-11-07 19:32:52 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
1533 2013-11-07 19:32:53 <HaltingState> $2500 "cryogenically treated" helix cables?
1534 2013-11-07 19:33:26 gjj_ has joined
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1537 2013-11-07 19:34:30 <Ry4an> HaltingState: this one http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Cable-Version/product-reviews/B000I1X6PM
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1541 2013-11-07 19:37:32 <dobry-den> I think "wallet" is one of the most overloaded words in bitcoin
1542 2013-11-07 19:37:41 gjj_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1543 2013-11-07 19:37:43 <sipa> it is
1544 2013-11-07 19:38:17 <sipa> it refers either to a set of keys, a set of keys + transactions, a program, a node instance, a piece of paper, ...
1545 2013-11-07 19:39:55 <dobry-den> and a handy place to cache things
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1550 2013-11-07 19:48:21 <dobry-den> HaltingState: "cryogenically treated" sounds like a bullet-point you'd find on the packaging of Monster cables
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1553 2013-11-07 19:49:01 <dobry-den> next to "Works best with Beats by Dre"
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1560 2013-11-07 19:58:14 <Celegrom> Does anyone have any experience with Scapy? More specifically creating new protocols using Scapy?
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1598 2013-11-07 20:53:48 <sipa> HaltingState: can you confirm this fixes your assert/segfault?
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1602 2013-11-07 20:55:35 ahmedbodi is now known as zz_ahmedbodi
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1606 2013-11-07 20:59:01 <shamoon> CheckProofOfWork
1607 2013-11-07 20:59:06 <shamoon> is that the function that checks proof of work?
1608 2013-11-07 20:59:12 <shamoon> i.e., compares a hash against the target?
1609 2013-11-07 20:59:51 <sipa> correct
1610 2013-11-07 21:00:17 freewil has joined
1611 2013-11-07 21:01:38 <shamoon> so if, for whatever reason, i want EVERY hash to work, i can just force return true?
1612 2013-11-07 21:01:46 <sipa> yes
1613 2013-11-07 21:02:22 <shamoon> thanks sipa
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1638 2013-11-07 21:38:43 <bitnumus> hey, is there a package around for bitcoind on raspberry pi ?
1639 2013-11-07 21:40:09 <lianj> bitnumus: depends on your distro. but better build the latest stable version yourself
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1641 2013-11-07 21:40:27 <bitnumus> using raspbian based off wheezy
1642 2013-11-07 21:40:39 <lianj> compile yourself
1643 2013-11-07 21:40:57 <bitnumus> ok
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1647 2013-11-07 21:43:07 <tom39291> Does anybody know any low-volume blogs/journals/mailing lists that are heavy on core issues (I'm far more interested in blockchains than applications of blockchains, for example)?
1648 2013-11-07 21:43:37 <sipa> you mean implementation?
1649 2013-11-07 21:43:50 <sipa> of the reference client in particular, or in general?
1650 2013-11-07 21:43:57 <tom39291> Implementation or theory, in general
1651 2013-11-07 21:44:20 <sipa> this channel maybe :)
1652 2013-11-07 21:45:05 <tom39291> This channel might not satisfy "low-volume", and it's less easy to consume than a blogpost, for example, but I'll hang around and see. :)
1653 2013-11-07 21:47:34 sebicas has joined
1654 2013-11-07 21:49:30 <sebicas> Hi, I need to verify Gavin's PGP Key # 1FC730C1, because seams diferent from http://bitcoin.org/gavinandresen.asc
1655 2013-11-07 21:49:57 <ne0futur> bitnumus: gentoo is good on raspberrypi and theres a gentoo ebuild for bitcoind
1656 2013-11-07 21:50:09 <gavinandresen> sebicas: different how?
1657 2013-11-07 21:50:26 <gavinandresen> sebicas: I added a signing-only subkey recently....
1658 2013-11-07 21:51:50 <sebicas> gavinandresen: When I imported http://bitcoin.org/gavinandresen.asc got PGP Key # BE38D3A8
1659 2013-11-07 21:52:00 <sipa> sebicas: there are 2 keys in that .asc file
1660 2013-11-07 21:52:11 <sipa> $ curl http://bitcoin.org/gavinandresen.asc | gpg --import
1661 2013-11-07 21:52:14 <sebicas> gavinandresen: Ahh ok, I got the otherone imported automaticly..
1662 2013-11-07 21:52:16 <sipa> gpg: key BE38D3A8: public key "Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>" imported
1663 2013-11-07 21:52:19 <sipa> gpg: key 1FC730C1: public key "Gavin Andresen (CODE SIGNING KEY) <gavinandresen@gmail.com>" imported
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1667 2013-11-07 21:52:55 <sebicas> Perfect then... got 1FC730C1 imported from a Keyserver early and didn't notice it was also in the file.. thanks guy!
1668 2013-11-07 21:53:00 <sebicas> guys!
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1716 2013-11-07 22:49:04 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: please pick this apart:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=327392.msg3513759#msg3513759
1717 2013-11-07 22:49:21 <etotheipi_> I'd like to figure out where I can harden Armory against this problem
1718 2013-11-07 22:50:43 <edcba> ram errors ? solution is to buy ecc :)
1719 2013-11-07 22:52:20 <edcba> but yes we could use a verification step after every critical operation
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1725 2013-11-07 22:54:14 <warren> phantomcircuit: hmm, after your patch it appears that debug.log getblocks became a lot more verbose.  anything we can do to make it less noisy?
1726 2013-11-07 22:54:49 <Happzz> remove -debug from the link?
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1735 2013-11-07 23:10:36 <warren> Litecoin Dev just donated ~$2,000 to forrestv in support of further work to improve the scalability and dust payout reduction of p2pool BTC and LTC.  Our previous sponsorship earlier this year enabled p2pool BTC ASIC support and other improvements.  We encourage others to donate to forrestv in support of allowing p2pool to scale bigger which helps to guard the network against mining centralization.
1736 2013-11-07 23:11:19 <warren> Details on how exactly forrestv will improve p2pool are up to him and subject to research.
1737 2013-11-07 23:11:47 phlogiston has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1738 2013-11-07 23:11:48 <amiller> that's awesome, forrestv totally deserves funding
1739 2013-11-07 23:13:04 soheil has quit ()
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1741 2013-11-07 23:13:41 <warren> Yes, we encourage others to donate in support of this goal.
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1745 2013-11-07 23:14:19 <warren> http://p2pool.info/ look at the 3 month graph to see p2pool BTC's decentralized mining growth
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1747 2013-11-07 23:16:22 <TD> warren: that's what we like to see!
1748 2013-11-07 23:17:17 <TD> looks like the number of users hasn't changed much though
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1751 2013-11-07 23:17:26 <TD> so the increase in hash rate is from people upgrading hardware rather than growing the userbase
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1756 2013-11-07 23:18:18 <warren> TD: prior to our sponsorship p2pool was dying because it couldn't handle ASIC at all, so yeah, htis only allowed it to transition into the newer hardware.  this new grant is to improve scalability of the software to allow much larger growth.
1757 2013-11-07 23:18:41 <TD> it's constrained by scalability at the moment?
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1760 2013-11-07 23:18:54 <phantomcircuit> warren, hmm
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1762 2013-11-07 23:19:08 <warren> TD: others disagree with me, but I think so, and forrestv has a long list of ideas to research on this.
1763 2013-11-07 23:19:16 <TD> ok
1764 2013-11-07 23:19:18 <phantomcircuit> warren, maybe remove some stuff
1765 2013-11-07 23:19:38 <warren> TD: and $2,000 really isn't much, really hoping others join in donating to forrestv.
1766 2013-11-07 23:19:39 <maaku> warren: what kind of scalability issues?
1767 2013-11-07 23:19:43 <TD> right
1768 2013-11-07 23:19:48 <maaku> or forrestv, if you're around ^^
1769 2013-11-07 23:19:50 div has joined
1770 2013-11-07 23:19:54 <TD> if forrest needs help to work on it full time, has he talked to the foundation?
1771 2013-11-07 23:20:01 <warren> I'll be back later, I will do a writeup on this, I'm on the road now.
1772 2013-11-07 23:20:06 <maaku> k
1773 2013-11-07 23:20:48 <warren> phantomcircuit: one of the things we asked for is a trustless accumulator
1774 2013-11-07 23:20:56 <warren> others here think it's impossible, but he and I think it is possible
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1777 2013-11-07 23:22:11 <warren> that's to reduce dust payouts (p2pool LTC has like 10-30 blocks a day * hundreds of TXO)
1778 2013-11-07 23:22:53 <phantomcircuit> warren, tbh i have no idea how p2pool works beyond a very vague idea
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1780 2013-11-07 23:23:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|phantomcircuit: basically, IIRC, there's a 10-second block chain
1781 2013-11-07 23:23:20 <warren> The network scalability part is like propagation latency reduction, share fork merging, behavioral incentives for big hash rate miners to increase their share difficulty (and thus reduce the orphan rate on the entire network that scares away miners), etc.
1782 2013-11-07 23:23:28 <warren> michagogo|cloud: nope
1783 2013-11-07 23:23:43 <warren> michagogo|cloud: p2pool BTC is 30 seconds, p2pool LTC is 15 seconds
1784 2013-11-07 23:23:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|or rolling blockchain or something
1785 2013-11-07 23:23:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, did it change?
1786 2013-11-07 23:23:53 <warren> yes
1787 2013-11-07 23:24:08 <warren> 30 seconds was to make the work return latency of ASIC's more tolerable
1788 2013-11-07 23:24:24 patcon has joined
1789 2013-11-07 23:24:47 <maaku> reduction of TXOs through an accumulator would be greatly appreciated
1790 2013-11-07 23:24:53 <maaku> hope that works out
1791 2013-11-07 23:25:09 <warren> maaku: p2pool BTC doesn't care about that goal
1792 2013-11-07 23:25:09 <maaku> there should be other ways to achieve it outside of an accumlator though
1793 2013-11-07 23:25:26 <warren> maaku: if you support these goals please donate to forrestv
1794 2013-11-07 23:25:31 <maaku> we would if p2pool saw the usage we want it to see
1795 2013-11-07 23:27:05 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1797 2013-11-07 23:28:26 <BlueMatt> warren: somehow I think p2pool support is grant-worthy from the foundation?
1798 2013-11-07 23:28:50 <warren> BlueMatt: probably, he needs help with grant writing
1799 2013-11-07 23:28:58 <warren> BlueMatt: for now we just made our own grant to him
1800 2013-11-07 23:29:35 <warren> BlueMatt: this is partially because we've already supported him in the past, and partially in response to the selfish miner discourse, it's time to encourage more decentralized mining.
1801 2013-11-07 23:29:59 <BlueMatt> that time is long overdue...
1802 2013-11-07 23:30:07 patcon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1803 2013-11-07 23:30:10 <BlueMatt> well he should definitely apply for a grant with the foundation
1804 2013-11-07 23:30:48 <warren> my understanding is that he's crazy busy at school.  our grant was for "vague goals" with "vague deadline" with deliverables of "whatever he wants"
1805 2013-11-07 23:30:59 <BlueMatt> ahhh
1806 2013-11-07 23:31:07 <BlueMatt> now that one I can understand....
1807 2013-11-07 23:31:14 <warren> we were impressed with his previous results
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1809 2013-11-07 23:31:47 <warren> IMHO the idea of p2pool needs to be rewritten and made multi-threaded, that's part of its current scalability challenges
1810 2013-11-07 23:31:50 patcon has joined
1811 2013-11-07 23:31:56 <warren> but there's lots of low hanging fruit to improve the current design
1812 2013-11-07 23:32:00 msvb-lab has quit (Quit: msvb-lab)
1813 2013-11-07 23:32:59 <BlueMatt> IMHO all software needs to be rewritten, but thats some combination of NIH, all of my code being hacked-together, and seeing design flaws in any codebase you work with long enough :p
1814 2013-11-07 23:33:21 nvk has joined
1815 2013-11-07 23:35:07 <abrkn> is there a way to see how many of the addresses in my key pool have been "used" (have inputs/sent tx' to)
1816 2013-11-07 23:35:08 <abrkn> ?
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1821 2013-11-07 23:42:50 <forrestv> TD, p2pool was indeed funded by the foundation, most specifically for work on long-term sustainability problems
1822 2013-11-07 23:42:50 <forrestv> (p2pool needs a way to provably know how much of a fee a transaction carries, which entails quickly knowing whether a transaction is even valid, as transaction fees become a larger proportion of the block reward)
1823 2013-11-07 23:42:50 <forrestv> i've been researching and prototyping bitcoin-UTXO-like ways to get this to work, but no public results yet
1824 2013-11-07 23:43:21 <TD> huh?
1825 2013-11-07 23:43:31 AusBitBank has joined
1826 2013-11-07 23:43:34 <TD> p2pool runs connected to a local bitcoind right
1827 2013-11-07 23:43:39 <TD> so if you get the tx from the bitcoind it's valid
1828 2013-11-07 23:44:37 <forrestv> TD, right now, the reward you get from p2pool is based on the total difficulty of the shares you've mined
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1830 2013-11-07 23:45:07 <sipa> it should still be possible to fetch the fee for a transaction from bitcoind
1831 2013-11-07 23:45:13 <forrestv> shares with more transaction fees should be rewarded more, and that's becoming a bigger issue with the block reward having halved
1832 2013-11-07 23:45:15 <sipa> no RPC for that now, but it could easily be added
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1835 2013-11-07 23:47:41 <abrkn> sipa: mind checking out my question? (few lines up)
1836 2013-11-07 23:48:28 <sipa> abrkn: getreceivedbyaddress?
1837 2013-11-07 23:48:32 <sipa> or listreceivedbyaddress
1838 2013-11-07 23:49:10 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1839 2013-11-07 23:49:15 <abrkn> sipa: actually, i meant how many addresses have been "claimed" by getnewaddress
1840 2013-11-07 23:49:56 agnostic98 has joined
1841 2013-11-07 23:50:06 <sipa> abrkn: getinfo will give you keypoolsize
1842 2013-11-07 23:50:39 <sipa> abrkn: if you subtract the size oft he actual keypool (by default 100) + 1 (for the default key), you get the actually claimed addresses afaik
1843 2013-11-07 23:50:48 <abrkn> sipa: ok, thank you :)
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1845 2013-11-07 23:52:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(until you refill, of course...)
1846 2013-11-07 23:52:11 <forrestv> sipa, it really needs to be able to happen in isolation, for example for when verifying past shares and just to minimize latency. p2pool will need to have its own
1847 2013-11-07 23:52:12 <forrestv> mini block verification engine that runs on each share, and i thought it would be best if it weren't deeply coupled with bitcoind and didn't require p2pool to
1848 2013-11-07 23:52:12 <forrestv> keep track of all transactions
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1852 2013-11-07 23:53:14 <abrkn> sipa: i just checked out letstalkbitcoin about dynamic tx fees. will that be in 0.9?
1853 2013-11-07 23:53:49 nvk has joined
1854 2013-11-07 23:53:53 <sipa> abrkn: yes
1855 2013-11-07 23:54:17 <abrkn> sipa: and return-to-sender addresses?
1856 2013-11-07 23:54:29 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1857 2013-11-07 23:54:32 <sipa> if you use the payment protocol, yes
1858 2013-11-07 23:54:51 <abrkn> sipa: ok. one of the things i like about ripple is source and destination tagging. makes returing funds so seasy
1859 2013-11-07 23:56:16 ikbenwouter has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1863 2013-11-07 23:59:17 <TD> forrestv: sounds like you'd benefit from a hard-fork to put connected output value into the input scripts
1864 2013-11-07 23:59:29 sacrelege has quit (Client Quit)
1865 2013-11-07 23:59:35 <TD> actually, no, maybe not .....
1866 2013-11-07 23:59:58 eristisk has joined
1867 2013-11-07 23:59:59 <TD> perhaps we should just change the tx format so that the connected output value is in the data structure