1 2013-11-08 00:00:12 weex__ has left ()
   2 2013-11-08 00:00:46 <TD> forrestv: the question is - what makes you think you can do the lookups faster than bitcoind
   3 2013-11-08 00:00:54 ThomasV has joined
   4 2013-11-08 00:01:44 <gmaxwell> td: bitcoind cannot do lookups of _spent_ coins (e.g. verifying the newly historic p2pool chain) fast without a seperate large index of historic outputs.
   5 2013-11-08 00:01:44 <forrestv> TD, assuming the UTXO merkle tree idea were implemented, each transaction in every share could carry its merkle branch, which acts as proof that it's currently spendable
   6 2013-11-08 00:02:24 <TD> gmaxwell: and how would p2pool solve that differently?
   7 2013-11-08 00:02:58 <sipa> forrestv: you mean a merkle path for each of its inputs?
   8 2013-11-08 00:03:09 <forrestv> sipa, yes, oops
   9 2013-11-08 00:03:18 <sipa> that is no proof of spendability
  10 2013-11-08 00:03:32 Application has joined
  11 2013-11-08 00:03:37 <sipa> just a proof of spendable-once-upon-a-time
  12 2013-11-08 00:03:38 <forrestv> what do you mean?
  13 2013-11-08 00:03:44 <sipa> it can be spent already
  14 2013-11-08 00:03:51 <sipa> ugh
  15 2013-11-08 00:03:53 <TD> sipa: he is talking about a merkle branch for a non-existant utxo tree
  16 2013-11-08 00:03:55 <sipa> i need sleep
  17 2013-11-08 00:04:00 * TD too
  18 2013-11-08 00:04:01 <sipa> yes yes, sorry
  19 2013-11-08 00:04:07 <TD> night
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  39 2013-11-08 00:26:05 <sipa> gavinandresen, jgarzik, gmaxwell, wumpus: have you seen this http://www.gluster.org/2013/08/how-far-the-once-mighty-sourceforge-has-fallen/ ?
  40 2013-11-08 00:26:30 <sipa> it sounds a bit biased and possibly not that bad... but it does make me want to reconsider moving away from sf entirely
  41 2013-11-08 00:27:20 <gavinandresen> https://bitcoincore.org/ could start serving binaries, modulo DoS protection
  42 2013-11-08 00:28:14 <gavinandresen> … well, and we need somebody dedicated to making sure it stays secure
  43 2013-11-08 00:28:25 <abrkn> whos the "third" guy on letstalkbitcoin all the time? theres the host and the female and one more
  44 2013-11-08 00:28:36 <gavinandresen> abrkn: Andreas
  45 2013-11-08 00:28:44 <abrkn> gavinandresen: so not you?
  46 2013-11-08 00:28:55 <abrkn> gavinandresen: does he have a nick?
  47 2013-11-08 00:29:02 <sipa> Goonie?
  48 2013-11-08 00:29:06 <gavinandresen> abrkn: heck no, I'm too busy.  I think he is aantop
  49 2013-11-08 00:29:43 <gavinandresen> Is Goonie here in IRC Andreas on letstalkbitcoin?
  50 2013-11-08 00:30:08 <sipa> i've never watched letstalkbitcoin
  51 2013-11-08 00:30:17 <sipa> Goonie == Andreas Schildbach
  52 2013-11-08 00:30:22 <abrkn> its an audio show, pretty ok, but its very, very, very u.s. centric
  53 2013-11-08 00:30:34 <abrkn> its like they dont know anything outside the u.s exists
  54 2013-11-08 00:30:38 <ryan-c> I'm trying to build bitcoin from git, it's failing to find Boost::System. I have libboost-all-dev installed on ubuntu 13.10.
  55 2013-11-08 00:30:54 <sipa> ryan-c: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3219
  56 2013-11-08 00:31:10 <ryan-c> sipa: thank you
  57 2013-11-08 00:31:19 <sipa> abrkn: then i'm sure it's a different andreas
  58 2013-11-08 00:32:02 <ryan-c> Oh, that issue is only 8 hours old
  59 2013-11-08 00:32:12 <ryan-c> well i don't feel so bad about my google-fu now.
  60 2013-11-08 00:33:14 <abrkn> the whole bitcoin foundation concept confuses me. they keep fronting gavin and saying they're hiring lobbyists in the u.s
  61 2013-11-08 00:33:30 <gavinandresen> abrkn: off-topic here
  62 2013-11-08 00:33:37 <abrkn> gavinandresen: apologies
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  64 2013-11-08 00:34:44 <abrkn> from me, that is :)
  65 2013-11-08 00:35:07 <sipa> what does "fronting" mean?
  66 2013-11-08 00:35:37 <abrkn> sipa: gavin is right, it's the wrong chan. i wanted to know what he thinks, but its not fair to ambush in -dev
  67 2013-11-08 00:36:06 <gavinandresen> sipa: "fronting" means "promoting as spokesperson"
  68 2013-11-08 00:36:09 <gavinandresen> I think
  69 2013-11-08 00:37:50 <ryan-c> ...did gcc just oom trying to build bitcoin?
  70 2013-11-08 00:38:03 <abrkn> happens to me every day man :)
  71 2013-11-08 00:38:04 <ryan-c> ...yup...
  72 2013-11-08 00:38:13 <ryan-c> How is 512MB not enough?
  73 2013-11-08 00:38:18 <abrkn> never has
  74 2013-11-08 00:38:19 <Evilmax> hi all
  75 2013-11-08 00:38:25 <ryan-c> How much do I need?
  76 2013-11-08 00:38:31 <abrkn> ryan: ive done well with 2gb swap
  77 2013-11-08 00:38:42 <Evilmax> i am using "sendfrom" command in bitcoind
  78 2013-11-08 00:38:48 <Evilmax> but it seems not work
  79 2013-11-08 00:38:51 <Evilmax> why?
  80 2013-11-08 00:39:00 <ryan-c> abrkn: It's a vm, so i can just respawn it with more mem
  81 2013-11-08 00:39:24 <abrkn> ryan: give it a shot at 4gb
  82 2013-11-08 00:39:26 <ryan-c> Evilmax: Can you elaborate on "seems not work"?
  83 2013-11-08 00:39:33 <Evilmax> there is an alternative? i want not use "sendtoaddress" because i am afraid that, in this way, an account can spend all server balance
  84 2013-11-08 00:39:35 donncha has left ()
  85 2013-11-08 00:39:40 <ryan-c> abrkn: WTF. Okay.
  86 2013-11-08 00:39:48 <Evilmax> ryan-c...it does not send btc
  87 2013-11-08 00:40:01 <Evilmax> wait...i will write the error (i use curl)
  88 2013-11-08 00:40:15 <ryan-c> Evilmax: You can try locking all the bitcoins you don't want to spend and then do a transaction
  89 2013-11-08 00:40:25 <Evilmax> {"result":0.00000000,"error":null,"id":"t0"}
  90 2013-11-08 00:40:48 <ryan-c> Evilmax: I suggest you try experimenting on testnet - I'd be happy to send you 100 testnet coins to play with.
  91 2013-11-08 00:40:49 <Evilmax> i want that an account of my bitcoind daemon can move his coins but not all coins
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  93 2013-11-08 00:41:19 <Evilmax> on test net i can charge 100 coins?!
  94 2013-11-08 00:41:24 <Evilmax> wow
  95 2013-11-08 00:41:28 <abrkn> ryan: im just guessing here from compiling litecoind. i never compiled bitcoind from source
  96 2013-11-08 00:41:49 <ryan-c> Evilmax: I can give you testnet coins for free. They're totally worthless for anything other than testing.
  97 2013-11-08 00:41:51 nvk has joined
  98 2013-11-08 00:42:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Evilmax: You probably don't want to be using accounts for keeping balances of different users separate
  99 2013-11-08 00:42:05 <abrkn> whats confirmation time on testnet like these days?
 100 2013-11-08 00:42:05 <Evilmax> ok ryan-c
 101 2013-11-08 00:42:06 <Evilmax> pleas
 102 2013-11-08 00:42:17 <Evilmax> please...first let me take a look to config file
 103 2013-11-08 00:42:30 <ryan-c> Evilmax: You'll need to restart bitcoind in testnet mode.
 104 2013-11-08 00:42:55 <Evilmax> maybe it doesn't work because "paytxfee=0.00" in config?
 105 2013-11-08 00:43:04 AndyOfiesh has joined
 106 2013-11-08 00:43:06 <Evilmax> i have to write paytxfee=0.0005?
 107 2013-11-08 00:43:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|abrkn: 20 minutes minus time since last block
 108 2013-11-08 00:43:26 <ryan-c> Evilmax: sendfrom doen't inherently require a fee
 109 2013-11-08 00:43:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;calc 128709 % 2016
 110 2013-11-08 00:43:44 <abrkn> michagogo|cloud: not bad :) enormous last time i tried, gave up on it and went straight to real
 111 2013-11-08 00:43:44 <gribble> 1701
 112 2013-11-08 00:43:52 <ryan-c> what are the arguments you're using to sendfrom?
 113 2013-11-08 00:44:17 DonnchaC has joined
 114 2013-11-08 00:44:25 abrkn has quit ()
 115 2013-11-08 00:44:27 <DonnchaC> Hi, I'm trying to create tx's spending from multisig address in python. I'm pretty sure I am generating my raw transaction correctly but I'm not sure whats going wrong (possibily with signing). When I try broadcast the fully signed tx blockchain.info tells me "Unable To find all tx inputs" - https://gist.github.com/anonymous/ac6b28a729b595d06c53
 116 2013-11-08 00:44:34 <Evilmax> i use:
 117 2013-11-08 00:44:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|abrkn: basically, a little while ago someone pointed a very large amount (relatively) of hashpower at the testnet
 118 2013-11-08 00:44:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|so blocks usually don't get found until the 20 minute rule kicks in
 119 2013-11-08 00:44:48 <Evilmax> account, destination wallet and amount
 120 2013-11-08 00:44:59 <Evilmax> accounte name, dest wallet, amount
 121 2013-11-08 00:45:09 <DonnchaC> Anyone see anything obvious wrong with my tx. I have spent far too long trying to figure this out already :)
 122 2013-11-08 00:45:09 <ryan-c> how are you sending that?
 123 2013-11-08 00:45:18 <Evilmax> by curl command
 124 2013-11-08 00:45:20 <Evilmax> wait
 125 2013-11-08 00:45:24 <Evilmax> i will past it there...
 126 2013-11-08 00:45:47 <ryan-c> Evilmax: Why curl? bitcoind can issue RPC commands to the server.
 127 2013-11-08 00:46:23 <Evilmax> curl -u user:pass -d '{"id":"t0", "method": "sendfrom", "params": ["user","dest wallet","amount"] }' http://ip:8332/
 128 2013-11-08 00:46:33 <Evilmax> i need curl
 129 2013-11-08 00:46:46 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 130 2013-11-08 00:46:52 <Evilmax> command are runned from another pc
 131 2013-11-08 00:47:42 MC1984 has joined
 132 2013-11-08 00:47:42 MC1984 has quit (Changing host)
 133 2013-11-08 00:47:42 MC1984 has joined
 134 2013-11-08 00:48:13 <ryan-c> Evilmax: what's the user parameter you're using in the command (not auth)?
 135 2013-11-08 00:48:24 <ryan-c> It needs to match an account name in your wallet.
 136 2013-11-08 00:48:28 <Evilmax> i do not understand
 137 2013-11-08 00:48:33 <Evilmax> yes
 138 2013-11-08 00:48:37 <Evilmax> it matches
 139 2013-11-08 00:48:54 <Evilmax> i wrote user, dest wallet and amount only as example
 140 2013-11-08 00:49:02 <ryan-c> Evilmax: Try using bitcoind to issue the command
 141 2013-11-08 00:49:09 <Evilmax> ok
 142 2013-11-08 00:49:14 <Evilmax> i will try
 143 2013-11-08 00:49:18 <Evilmax> let me check
 144 2013-11-08 00:49:43 stevei has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 145 2013-11-08 00:50:09 <ryan-c> Evilmax: Why are you trying to use sendfrom, anyway?
 146 2013-11-08 00:50:12 OneFixt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 147 2013-11-08 00:50:32 OneFixt has joined
 148 2013-11-08 00:51:31 <Evilmax> wait please
 149 2013-11-08 00:51:36 <Evilmax> just a moment
 150 2013-11-08 00:52:00 <Evilmax> sendfrom...because i know only that command
 151 2013-11-08 00:52:10 <Evilmax> there is an alternative?
 152 2013-11-08 00:52:41 <ryan-c> Depends what you're trying to do... normally sendtoaddress is used.
 153 2013-11-08 00:52:42 <Evilmax> sendtoaddress, instead, move all daemon bitcoins
 154 2013-11-08 00:52:53 <Evilmax> i need that it moves only bitcoins of an account
 155 2013-11-08 00:53:00 <ryan-c> Why?
 156 2013-11-08 00:53:06 <Evilmax> because my daemon
 157 2013-11-08 00:53:10 <Evilmax> is a service
 158 2013-11-08 00:53:15 <Evilmax> not a personal wallet
 159 2013-11-08 00:54:22 CodeName has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 160 2013-11-08 00:54:26 <Evilmax> ok ryan-c
 161 2013-11-08 00:54:53 <Evilmax> by using directly bitcoind command "bitcoinnd sendfrom 'user' 'wallet destination' 'amount' "
 162 2013-11-08 00:54:56 <Evilmax> it works!
 163 2013-11-08 00:55:10 <Evilmax> so...i have to get it working with curl command too
 164 2013-11-08 00:55:30 <ryan-c> Evilmax: What happens if you try to send more than that account is supposed to have?
 165 2013-11-08 00:55:34 <Evilmax> first to spend all my coins in network fee for test!
 166 2013-11-08 00:55:46 <Evilmax> i get an error
 167 2013-11-08 00:55:55 <Evilmax> that means insufficient credit
 168 2013-11-08 00:56:03 <Evilmax> result: null
 169 2013-11-08 00:56:29 <ryan-c> Evilmax: Also, you appear to be using unencrypted RPC over a network. How can you be sure nobody can intercept the password to the bitcoin daemon?
 170 2013-11-08 00:56:40 <DonnchaC> Does anyone have experience creating raw multisig tx's, or were would be the best place to go for help? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/ac6b28a729b595d06c53
 171 2013-11-08 00:56:43 <Evilmax> now this is not important
 172 2013-11-08 00:56:54 <Evilmax> now i have just to resolve this issue
 173 2013-11-08 00:57:02 <Evilmax> later i will think abount security
 174 2013-11-08 00:57:25 <ryan-c> Evilmax: You should not be trying to run a service that other people store money in.
 175 2013-11-08 00:57:44 <Evilmax> why?
 176 2013-11-08 00:57:53 <lianj> whats the faceplam unicode symbol again
 177 2013-11-08 00:57:55 <Evilmax> that is my intent :)
 178 2013-11-08 00:57:57 <Evilmax> ehehe
 179 2013-11-08 00:58:23 <ryan-c> Evilmax: With an "I'll think about security later" attitude you will get hacked. Your users will lose their money.
 180 2013-11-08 00:58:39 nvk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 181 2013-11-08 00:58:39 <Evilmax> first to host the service online
 182 2013-11-08 00:58:41 <Evilmax> of course
 183 2013-11-08 00:58:42 <kuzetsa> Evilmax: I agree with ryan-c on this
 184 2013-11-08 00:58:46 <Zarutian> security much be integral part of you design
 185 2013-11-08 00:58:47 <Evilmax> i will fix all security issue
 186 2013-11-08 00:58:54 <lianj> m) <- good enough
 187 2013-11-08 00:58:55 <Evilmax> but now i ask for this issue
 188 2013-11-08 00:58:57 <phantomcircuit> Evilmax, what are you trying to do?
 189 2013-11-08 00:59:05 <Evilmax> oh boys
 190 2013-11-08 00:59:06 <ryan-c> Evilmax: Even if you think about security first, you need to hire a security expert (or even more than one) to check your work.
 191 2013-11-08 00:59:06 <pigeons> think about security later https://inputs.io/
 192 2013-11-08 00:59:17 <Evilmax> i am trying to host a btc wallet site
 193 2013-11-08 00:59:24 <Zarutian> pigeons: hah! indeed!
 194 2013-11-08 00:59:30 <phantomcircuit> pigeons, im not entirely convinced the security was the problem there
 195 2013-11-08 00:59:30 <ryan-c> Evilmax: You are not qualified to do so. Do not try.
 196 2013-11-08 00:59:55 <lianj> phantomcircuit: true
 197 2013-11-08 00:59:55 <pigeons> Evilmax: relevant because they were also a hosted btc wallet site
 198 2013-11-08 01:00:07 <lianj> phantomcircuit: at least not own app security per se
 199 2013-11-08 01:00:12 <phantomcircuit> although the security was certainly not up to the level he claimed
 200 2013-11-08 01:00:15 <Evilmax> ok...anyway i asked for help...not for this
 201 2013-11-08 01:00:17 <ryan-c> Evilmax: I'm sorry to be harsh.
 202 2013-11-08 01:00:18 <phantomcircuit> api keys as get parameters? wat
 203 2013-11-08 01:00:29 <ryan-c> Evilmax: But it's what you need to hear.
 204 2013-11-08 01:00:32 <Evilmax> just help me about my question
 205 2013-11-08 01:00:37 <Evilmax> if it's possible
 206 2013-11-08 01:00:47 <Evilmax> no Ry4an
 207 2013-11-08 01:00:49 <Evilmax> ryan-c
 208 2013-11-08 01:00:51 <lianj> phantomcircuit: convenience api
 209 2013-11-08 01:00:55 <Evilmax> about sendfrom command
 210 2013-11-08 01:01:04 <phantomcircuit> lianj, is it really that much harder to use post?
 211 2013-11-08 01:01:11 <Evilmax> ok, do not worry
 212 2013-11-08 01:01:13 <lianj> phantomcircuit: for some
 213 2013-11-08 01:01:17 <Evilmax> i will try by myself
 214 2013-11-08 01:01:24 <Evilmax> thank you, anyway :)
 215 2013-11-08 01:01:26 <pigeons> what was the likely non-security problem phantomcircuit ?
 216 2013-11-08 01:01:29 <ryan-c> Evilmax: Your users will get screwed.
 217 2013-11-08 01:01:40 <Evilmax> and sorry my english
 218 2013-11-08 01:01:41 <phantomcircuit> pigeons, do you know who TF really is? because i dont
 219 2013-11-08 01:01:42 <ryan-c> pigeons: He's implying the hack was staged.
 220 2013-11-08 01:01:45 <Evilmax> i am tired to translate
 221 2013-11-08 01:02:00 <phantomcircuit> pigeons, "here you go anonymous internet person have my bitcoins, please dont steal them kthx"
 222 2013-11-08 01:02:16 <lianj> ryan-c: oh that. maybe too. but we can say that for almost any btc hack
 223 2013-11-08 01:02:26 <pigeons> phantomcircuit: i don't know him personally i know of a past scam of his. i see what you mean. i'll take it out of channel
 224 2013-11-08 01:02:33 <kuzetsa> as an aside... I think perhaps some users might worry about the morality of a person who uses the name "evil" and doesn't consider security for other people's money a top priority.
 225 2013-11-08 01:02:48 <phantomcircuit> kuzetsa, lol...
 226 2013-11-08 01:02:59 <kuzetsa> particularly after the "pirate at 40" last year
 227 2013-11-08 01:03:10 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: ppft, it's not like anyone has ever been screwed over by someone named pirate or some guy named nefario.
 228 2013-11-08 01:03:19 <lianj> kuzetsa: give me bitcoin i give you more back
 229 2013-11-08 01:03:36 <kuzetsa> lianj: fortunately for me, I don't have a bitcoin to risk right now
 230 2013-11-08 01:03:48 <kuzetsa> it's all invested in hardware :(
 231 2013-11-08 01:03:57 <lianj> m(
 232 2013-11-08 01:04:06 [\\\] has joined
 233 2013-11-08 01:04:21 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im fairly confident nefario didn't actually screw over anybody
 234 2013-11-08 01:04:42 <gmaxwell> Anyone know what the deal is with coinbase randomly "refunding" payments of not-exactly-expected amounts to random prior to addresses apparently inferred from analyizing signatures and prior txouts?
 235 2013-11-08 01:04:42 <ryan-c> I have been doing computer security work for a very long time. I would not trust myself to make a web wallet. You have to worry about stuff like "hosting provider hacked with 0day" when you're holding a bunch of bitcoins for people.
 236 2013-11-08 01:04:59 <kuzetsa> yeah... I wasn't screwed by nefario... I opted in to having my contact info shared with the security issuer who then made it right :)
 237 2013-11-08 01:05:02 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I mean, if nothing else he managed to lose a ton of money via the double payments.
 238 2013-11-08 01:05:06 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's for addresses associated with an invoice i think
 239 2013-11-08 01:05:23 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sure but that's nor malicious
 240 2013-11-08 01:05:26 <phantomcircuit> not*
 241 2013-11-08 01:05:42 <ryan-c> well, seems like 5GB ram is enough to build bitcoind
 242 2013-11-08 01:06:05 <pigeons> well mr nefario got some vc money for a uk exchange
 243 2013-11-08 01:06:12 <phantomcircuit> ryan-c, you can build with 512mb of ram but only if you do it with -j1
 244 2013-11-08 01:06:27 <ryan-c> phantomcircuit: Hmm, I only had -j2
 245 2013-11-08 01:06:27 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 246 2013-11-08 01:06:29 <phantomcircuit> pigeons, except they only can do SEPA transfers like everybody else
 247 2013-11-08 01:06:35 <ryan-c> well, it's compiled now
 248 2013-11-08 01:06:45 <MC1984> why does it take so much ram to compile a 20mb program
 249 2013-11-08 01:06:47 <phantomcircuit> pigeons, i'll be impressed if they can get a uk domestic account
 250 2013-11-08 01:06:53 patcon has joined
 251 2013-11-08 01:07:05 <kuzetsa> ryan-c: were you using the "-pipe" cflag or something? that's way more ram than I've ever used for compile without "-pipe" in my compiler toolchain
 252 2013-11-08 01:07:16 <pigeons> i'm impressed with any bitcoin exchange that holds bank accounts
 253 2013-11-08 01:07:24 <ryan-c> no, i was using mostly default compile settings.
 254 2013-11-08 01:07:28 <warren> TD[away]: gmaxwell: forrestv: sounds like p2pool would benefit from something like: bitcoind validates an insufficient difficulty p2pool share is a valid block (except for the difficulty being insufficient).
 255 2013-11-08 01:07:40 <phantomcircuit> pigeons, i'd bet they have an account at bzwbk, which isn't hard unless you really are doing something stupid
 256 2013-11-08 01:07:50 <gmaxwell> warren: that may be useful but it doesn't work for old shares.
 257 2013-11-08 01:07:51 <ryan-c> just had qt disabled and had the "non-portable-wallet" flag.
 258 2013-11-08 01:07:55 <kuzetsa> ryan-c: "default" varies depending on which distro provided your toolchain
 259 2013-11-08 01:08:04 <ryan-c> it's ubuntu 13.10
 260 2013-11-08 01:08:04 <warren> crap.
 261 2013-11-08 01:08:26 * kuzetsa shrugs
 262 2013-11-08 01:08:27 <phantomcircuit> ryan-c, pretty sure that's pipe
 263 2013-11-08 01:08:33 <ryan-c> maybe.
 264 2013-11-08 01:08:36 <Evilmax> this is the error
 265 2013-11-08 01:08:39 <Evilmax> {"result":null,"error":{"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected real"},"id":"t0"}
 266 2013-11-08 01:08:43 <Evilmax> what means?
 267 2013-11-08 01:08:50 <kuzetsa> I've never tried to run ubuntu (as a desktop, server, development environment, or otherwise)
 268 2013-11-08 01:09:05 <Evilmax> with sendfrom
 269 2013-11-08 01:09:07 <kuzetsa> I'll take your word for it though that 5GB was enough O_O
 270 2013-11-08 01:09:26 <ryan-c> kuzetsa: well, I just added an extra 0 to the existing 512MB in the config.
 271 2013-11-08 01:09:49 <sipa> Evilmax: so, you're building a site that will be storing money, on a system you're not confortable with, avoiding trying to understand the security issues?
 272 2013-11-08 01:09:53 <kuzetsa> "the config" <-- ooooh, ok, that ... wait, what?
 273 2013-11-08 01:10:06 <phantomcircuit> sipa, shh it'll be hilarious
 274 2013-11-08 01:10:27 <ryan-c> sipa: Yes, that seems to be what he's doing. I already tried telling him about how screwed his users will be.
 275 2013-11-08 01:10:28 <Evilmax> please
 276 2013-11-08 01:10:33 <Evilmax> just answer to question
 277 2013-11-08 01:10:36 <Evilmax> if you know
 278 2013-11-08 01:10:43 <kuzetsa> Evilmax: what question?
 279 2013-11-08 01:11:02 <sipa> Evilmax: i know, but no; given these conditions i don't think it's wise to help you
 280 2013-11-08 01:11:05 <Evilmax> you like to make judgments at random
 281 2013-11-08 01:11:17 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 282 2013-11-08 01:11:22 <Evilmax> question is: why sendfrom doesn't work
 283 2013-11-08 01:11:25 <Evilmax> i get:
 284 2013-11-08 01:11:29 <Evilmax> {"result":null,"error":{"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected real"},"id":"t0"}
 285 2013-11-08 01:11:34 <Evilmax> by using curl
 286 2013-11-08 01:11:36 <phantomcircuit> Evilmax, because you have no idea what you're doing
 287 2013-11-08 01:11:45 <Evilmax> ok phantomcircuit
 288 2013-11-08 01:11:47 Applicat_ has joined
 289 2013-11-08 01:11:49 <Evilmax> so explain me
 290 2013-11-08 01:11:54 <Evilmax> want you help me?
 291 2013-11-08 01:11:55 <phantomcircuit> im fairly certain nobody here is going to help you in your endeavor since it's clearly a BadIdea(tm)
 292 2013-11-08 01:12:01 <kuzetsa> Evilmax: you're using the syntax wrong... you need to somehow change the data type from string to something numeric
 293 2013-11-08 01:12:18 <Evilmax> kuzetsa...the string i am using is:
 294 2013-11-08 01:12:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Evilmax: 3.14, not "3.14"
 295 2013-11-08 01:12:35 Applicat_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 296 2013-11-08 01:12:36 <kuzetsa> yeah, what michagogo just said
 297 2013-11-08 01:12:38 <Evilmax> curl -u user:pass -d '{"id":"t0", "method": "sendfrom", "params": ["user","dest wallet","amount"] }' http://ip:8332/
 298 2013-11-08 01:12:39 <kuzetsa> :)
 299 2013-11-08 01:12:52 <kuzetsa> make sure "ammount" isn't in quotes
 300 2013-11-08 01:12:52 <Evilmax> how many idiots tonigh
 301 2013-11-08 01:12:55 <Evilmax> tonight
 302 2013-11-08 01:13:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Evilmax: amount needs to be a number
 303 2013-11-08 01:13:05 <Evilmax> let me ask, please
 304 2013-11-08 01:13:06 <kuzetsa> or spelled with the wrong number of "m"
 305 2013-11-08 01:13:06 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 306 2013-11-08 01:13:06 Applicat_ has joined
 307 2013-11-08 01:13:12 <Evilmax> yes kuzetsa
 308 2013-11-08 01:13:15 <Evilmax> it is a number
 309 2013-11-08 01:13:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|not a string with digits in it
 310 2013-11-08 01:13:24 <Evilmax> i did not wrote "amount"
 311 2013-11-08 01:13:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|for example
 312 2013-11-08 01:13:29 <Evilmax> amount is just for example
 313 2013-11-08 01:13:47 <sipa> yes, but it needs to be amount, not "amount"
 314 2013-11-08 01:13:50 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 315 2013-11-08 01:13:56 <Evilmax> mmmm
 316 2013-11-08 01:13:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|curl -u user:pass -d '{"id":"t0", "method": "sendfrom", "params": ["account","1address",3.14159265] }' http://localhost:8332/
 317 2013-11-08 01:14:03 <Evilmax> it is an amount numeric not "amount"
 318 2013-11-08 01:14:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|and not: curl -u user:pass -d '{"id":"t0", "method": "sendfrom", "params": ["account","1address","3.14159265"] }' http://localhost:8332/
 319 2013-11-08 01:14:11 OrP has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 320 2013-11-08 01:14:12 <Evilmax> ah ok
 321 2013-11-08 01:14:15 <Evilmax> maybe i understand
 322 2013-11-08 01:14:22 <kuzetsa> O_O
 323 2013-11-08 01:14:23 <Evilmax> what you mean
 324 2013-11-08 01:14:28 <kuzetsa> I'm washing my hands of this
 325 2013-11-08 01:14:28 <Evilmax> it is passed as a php variable
 326 2013-11-08 01:14:34 <Evilmax> to a bash script
 327 2013-11-08 01:14:42 <sipa> my god
 328 2013-11-08 01:14:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(but you still shouldn't try to take other peoples' money with this until you know what you're doing...)
 329 2013-11-08 01:14:52 <Evilmax> ehehe
 330 2013-11-08 01:15:00 <Evilmax> ok
 331 2013-11-08 01:15:01 <sipa> you know there's a JSON-RPC implementation for PHP, right?
 332 2013-11-08 01:15:09 <Evilmax> yes, i know
 333 2013-11-08 01:15:09 <ryan-c> hey, what if one of your users is called ';rm --no-protect-root -rf /;#?
 334 2013-11-08 01:15:17 <sipa> so you can directly send commands instead of forking a shell + curl to do so
 335 2013-11-08 01:15:20 <Evilmax> tnx to an user of this chan
 336 2013-11-08 01:15:30 <Evilmax> and how?
 337 2013-11-08 01:15:53 <Evilmax> all works...just this damnned "sendfrom"
 338 2013-11-08 01:16:00 <Evilmax> :)
 339 2013-11-08 01:16:11 <sipa> have you thought about backups?
 340 2013-11-08 01:16:14 <sipa> cold and hot wallets?
 341 2013-11-08 01:16:19 <sipa> security?
 342 2013-11-08 01:16:25 <sipa> legal protection?
 343 2013-11-08 01:16:29 <Evilmax> again security?
 344 2013-11-08 01:16:37 <Evilmax> i have first to build this site
 345 2013-11-08 01:16:44 <Evilmax> then i will think abount security
 346 2013-11-08 01:16:49 <ryan-c>  <Evilmax> later i will think abount security
 347 2013-11-08 01:16:49 <Evilmax> understand?
 348 2013-11-08 01:16:55 <Evilmax> step...bye step!
 349 2013-11-08 01:16:58 <ryan-c> Evilmax: You're an idiot.
 350 2013-11-08 01:17:06 <Evilmax> ryan-c go to bed
 351 2013-11-08 01:17:11 <Evilmax> this is an help channel
 352 2013-11-08 01:17:12 <ryan-c> You have to think about security to start with.
 353 2013-11-08 01:17:15 <Evilmax> you are just a troll
 354 2013-11-08 01:17:31 Fistful_of_LTC has joined
 355 2013-11-08 01:17:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Evilmax: Are you planning to take peoples' money here?
 356 2013-11-08 01:17:39 <Evilmax> yesterday a guy gave me a great help
 357 2013-11-08 01:17:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If so, you *must* start with security from the ground up
 358 2013-11-08 01:17:48 <Evilmax> but tonight only trolls
 359 2013-11-08 01:18:03 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
 360 2013-11-08 01:18:05 <sipa> Evilmax: we're only trying to help
 361 2013-11-08 01:18:15 <Fistful_of_LTC> i have a question about mastercoin: how will my bitcoins be kept seperate from my mastercoin? do i need to create a wallet to keep my mastercoins exclusively ?
 362 2013-11-08 01:18:18 <Evilmax> i am not trying nothing
 363 2013-11-08 01:18:28 <Evilmax> just to create a wallet for one of my sites
 364 2013-11-08 01:18:31 <Fistful_of_LTC> Is that my responsibility to not spend them
 365 2013-11-08 01:18:33 <Evilmax> where users move bitcoin
 366 2013-11-08 01:18:34 MC1984 has joined
 367 2013-11-08 01:18:48 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 368 2013-11-08 01:18:56 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: does a mastercoin client even exist?
 369 2013-11-08 01:19:02 <Evilmax> thank you sipa for trying to help me...
 370 2013-11-08 01:19:40 aKV-[e] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 371 2013-11-08 01:19:43 <Evilmax> even if it is strange help someone calling him "idiot"
 372 2013-11-08 01:19:52 <Fistful_of_LTC> there's a few protocol specs from what i can find... and a few steps to follow to make an actual transaction, it seems you're still using BTC wallets though? but the protocol just informs the exodus address of the transaction
 373 2013-11-08 01:20:05 <Evilmax> (ryan-c )
 374 2013-11-08 01:20:08 <Fistful_of_LTC> i'm not too clear on it, but i figured maybe someone on here could help me out or know a bit more
 375 2013-11-08 01:20:15 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
 376 2013-11-08 01:20:37 <Evilmax> maybe for ryan-c it is more simple call other "idiot" behind a pc
 377 2013-11-08 01:20:46 <Evilmax> others
 378 2013-11-08 01:20:52 <sipa> can we stop this?
 379 2013-11-08 01:20:53 <ryan-c> Evilmax: I'm trying to help prevent you from making something that will blow up in your face.
 380 2013-11-08 01:20:58 <Evilmax> ok:)
 381 2013-11-08 01:21:01 <Evilmax> it's all!
 382 2013-11-08 01:21:07 <Evilmax> sorry my english :)
 383 2013-11-08 01:21:13 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 384 2013-11-08 01:21:32 <Evilmax> -_______-
 385 2013-11-08 01:21:41 <kuzetsa> Evilmax: the specific error you were having was because of this --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_literal
 386 2013-11-08 01:21:47 <kuzetsa> the quote marks in your json messed it up
 387 2013-11-08 01:21:54 <Evilmax> i ll take a look kuzetsa
 388 2013-11-08 01:22:24 <Evilmax> ok... but first
 389 2013-11-08 01:22:25 <pigeons> few more investors and they'll build a wallet
 390 2013-11-08 01:22:28 <Evilmax> a break
 391 2013-11-08 01:22:32 <Evilmax> i want smoke
 392 2013-11-08 01:22:48 <kuzetsa> you instead need this --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_literal (except... well... a "real" datatype, rather than integer, but the idea is the same)
 393 2013-11-08 01:22:53 <Evilmax> my girl...has gone away with another boy
 394 2013-11-08 01:22:59 <Evilmax> i am very very unhappy
 395 2013-11-08 01:23:01 <Evilmax> friends
 396 2013-11-08 01:23:13 <Evilmax> now i see your fb page...full of hearts
 397 2013-11-08 01:23:17 <Evilmax> ;(
 398 2013-11-08 01:23:35 <Evilmax> i will kill them
 399 2013-11-08 01:23:38 <Evilmax> i am sure of this
 400 2013-11-08 01:23:50 <Evilmax> i am not a thief...i am a killer
 401 2013-11-08 01:23:59 imton has joined
 402 2013-11-08 01:24:00 <ryan-c> Well... this got dark.
 403 2013-11-08 01:24:06 <warren> sipa: I suggested to the mastercoin people that they find a way to do most things offchain
 404 2013-11-08 01:24:13 <kuzetsa> please take this discussion to #mudercoin-dev or something?
 405 2013-11-08 01:24:32 <kuzetsa> it's rather off-topic for #bitcoin-dev :(
 406 2013-11-08 01:24:33 <sipa> warren: don't think you're the first to do so
 407 2013-11-08 01:24:36 <kuzetsa> and upsetting :(
 408 2013-11-08 01:24:43 <Fistful_of_LTC> warren: is there a wallet you know of? for mastercoin?
 409 2013-11-08 01:24:45 mynameis has joined
 410 2013-11-08 01:24:51 mynameis has quit (Client Quit)
 411 2013-11-08 01:24:53 <warren> Fistful_of_LTC: mastercoin is a bad idea
 412 2013-11-08 01:24:56 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: i hope not
 413 2013-11-08 01:25:17 <Fistful_of_LTC> sipa: you guys don't think mastercoin is going to be succesful?
 414 2013-11-08 01:25:24 <sipa> i hope not
 415 2013-11-08 01:25:32 <pigeons> even if its sucessful it doesnt make it a good idea
 416 2013-11-08 01:25:44 <Fistful_of_LTC> because it doesn't use bitcoins features where it should
 417 2013-11-08 01:25:49 <Fistful_of_LTC> ?
 418 2013-11-08 01:26:05 <Fistful_of_LTC> and it's on top of bitcoin instead of using bitcoin?
 419 2013-11-08 01:26:14 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: as far as i understand it, it's a badly scaling system that abuses bitcoin as a storage mechanism
 420 2013-11-08 01:26:24 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 421 2013-11-08 01:26:53 <Fistful_of_LTC> sipa: the way i see it it's just TCP to bitcoin's IP... with a bit more redundancy in the way it does things maybe
 422 2013-11-08 01:27:38 <sipa> the features it adds are nice, but there's no way afaik to implement them efficiently
 423 2013-11-08 01:27:43 <Fistful_of_LTC> but then ... is there a good way to do what it wants to do: decentralized markets? that is actually being developped right now?
 424 2013-11-08 01:27:58 <sipa> and it remains abusive to do it on top of bitcoin, rather than say, a merged-mined own chain
 425 2013-11-08 01:28:05 <firepacket> Linking bitcoin transactions to other bodys of information is essential. there has to be some small data storage allowed. I mean if you think about it, the whole thing is really data storage anyway
 426 2013-11-08 01:28:13 <pigeons> Fistful_of_LTC: look at maaku and jtimon's hard-fork freimarkets for a workable implementation
 427 2013-11-08 01:28:26 <sipa> firepacket: bitcoin is _not_ data storage
 428 2013-11-08 01:28:36 <firepacket> sure it is
 429 2013-11-08 01:28:52 <pigeons> even Alex Mizrahi's colored coins are more workable than this mastercoin stuff
 430 2013-11-08 01:28:56 <sipa> firepacket: bitcoin is an incredibly expensive system, where you're forcing every full node to process all your data
 431 2013-11-08 01:29:13 <warren> Fistful_of_LTC: would be much cheaper to put mastercoin in a low cost alt chain.  Just don't be a parasite to bitcoin.  don't care where else it goes.
 432 2013-11-08 01:29:15 <Fistful_of_LTC> i like colored coins as well, but is that project actually evolving?
 433 2013-11-08 01:29:18 <firepacket> the datastorage part (if labeled correctly) can be ignored by thin clients
 434 2013-11-08 01:29:21 <warren> hmm, don't put it on litecoin's chain either
 435 2013-11-08 01:29:24 <sipa> firepacket: these nodes choose to do so, because what they get is useful: a decentralized trustless worldwide electronic currency
 436 2013-11-08 01:29:26 <Fistful_of_LTC> mastercoin's development strategy seems to be moving it forward
 437 2013-11-08 01:29:44 <firepacket> it's that little bit of data storage that takes bitcoin's potential to the next level
 438 2013-11-08 01:29:50 <firepacket> it doesn't have to be a lot
 439 2013-11-08 01:29:52 <Fistful_of_LTC> (ie bounties heh.)
 440 2013-11-08 01:30:04 <sipa> firepacket: if you're going to use bitcoin for other purposes, you are forcing them to do work which they aren't paid for
 441 2013-11-08 01:30:09 <pigeons> firepacket: you can't have think clients with mastercoin, you need to index the entire btc blockchain to make sure you havent been doublemastercoin spent
 442 2013-11-08 01:30:10 <ryan-c> is there a command to get the testnet chain height?
 443 2013-11-08 01:30:11 <sipa> firepacket: and may not care about
 444 2013-11-08 01:30:15 <Fistful_of_LTC> sipa:  i agree with firepacket, although i also agree minimizing redundancy is essential
 445 2013-11-08 01:30:17 <ryan-c> er, for the bot in the channel
 446 2013-11-08 01:30:22 <maaku> Fistful_of_LTC: we have a distributed exchange, colored coin, and off-chain solution here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280292.0
 447 2013-11-08 01:30:32 <firepacket> it's not really "other purposes" bitcoin is a timestamped transaction system
 448 2013-11-08 01:30:40 <firepacket> providing information about the transaction is fully included in its purpose
 449 2013-11-08 01:30:46 <sipa> firepacket: i fully disagree
 450 2013-11-08 01:30:46 <firepacket> a little extra data stoage does just that
 451 2013-11-08 01:30:53 imton has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 452 2013-11-08 01:30:56 <firepacket> you can disagree :)
 453 2013-11-08 01:31:09 <sipa> thankfully
 454 2013-11-08 01:31:27 <sipa> bitcoin is a fight with scalability
 455 2013-11-08 01:31:29 jtimon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 456 2013-11-08 01:31:46 * ryan-c is looking at the testnet block explorer
 457 2013-11-08 01:31:49 <firepacket> well we agree there
 458 2013-11-08 01:32:01 <sipa> then don't put unnecessary data in it
 459 2013-11-08 01:32:03 <ryan-c> his someone intenrionally issuing block exactly every 20 minutes?
 460 2013-11-08 01:32:18 <Fistful_of_LTC> sipa: how do you think the available data space in bitcoin 0.9 will be and should  be used?
 461 2013-11-08 01:32:20 <firepacket> that depends on your definition of necesarry
 462 2013-11-08 01:32:27 <maaku> if there wasn't a 25btc subsidy, no one would want to pay the real cost of putting data on the chain
 463 2013-11-08 01:32:32 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: "available data space" ?
 464 2013-11-08 01:32:45 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: ah, the OP_RETURN data
 465 2013-11-08 01:32:53 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: i think it should not be used, but i know it will
 466 2013-11-08 01:32:54 <Fistful_of_LTC> ya 8B arbitrary data
 467 2013-11-08 01:33:00 <Fistful_of_LTC> lol
 468 2013-11-08 01:33:25 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: it's there because not having it means people go put data elsewhere, where it hurts the system even more
 469 2013-11-08 01:33:49 <sipa> it's really just a way to make abuse hurt less
 470 2013-11-08 01:33:58 <firepacket> haha
 471 2013-11-08 01:34:05 <sipa> i'm quite serious
 472 2013-11-08 01:34:12 imton has joined
 473 2013-11-08 01:34:15 <firepacket> it's giving the people what they want and need so they don't abuse another feature to get it
 474 2013-11-08 01:34:16 <maaku> assuming those abusers even care enough to use it :\
 475 2013-11-08 01:34:19 <firepacket> it's the smartest option
 476 2013-11-08 01:34:30 <firepacket> but it's not "abuse"
 477 2013-11-08 01:34:38 <Fistful_of_LTC> sipa: either way i like it ;)
 478 2013-11-08 01:34:44 patcon has joined
 479 2013-11-08 01:36:17 patcon_ has joined
 480 2013-11-08 01:36:28 <Fistful_of_LTC> sipa: It seems to me it adds to bitcoin's flexibility, being able to use the existing blockchain (and therefore size), to add new features in a manner quite independant of it.
 481 2013-11-08 01:36:59 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: being able to link transactions to additional data, in a committing way, is useful
 482 2013-11-08 01:37:06 <Fistful_of_LTC> yes
 483 2013-11-08 01:37:09 <sipa> putting data in it, much less
 484 2013-11-08 01:37:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ryan-c: that's the testnet's 20-minute rule
 485 2013-11-08 01:37:11 <Fistful_of_LTC> exactly
 486 2013-11-08 01:37:16 <sipa> there are better ways to do so
 487 2013-11-08 01:37:25 <Fistful_of_LTC> well you can link it
 488 2013-11-08 01:37:26 <ryan-c> michagogo|cloud: ah, i see.
 489 2013-11-08 01:37:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ryan-c: If 20 minutes go by without a testnet block, one block is allowed to be mined at difficulty 1
 490 2013-11-08 01:37:42 <ryan-c> michagogo|cloud: yeah, i have the testnet wiki article up
 491 2013-11-08 01:37:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, cool
 492 2013-11-08 01:38:05 <firepacket> how can you link a transaction to another body of data without including something in it?
 493 2013-11-08 01:38:07 <ryan-c> Was the 20 minute rule a recent addition?
 494 2013-11-08 01:38:30 <Fistful_of_LTC> sipa: how?
 495 2013-11-08 01:38:36 <sipa> firepacket: that's actually possible, but it requires some crypto tricks
 496 2013-11-08 01:38:38 <ryan-c> okay
 497 2013-11-08 01:38:47 <ryan-c> that was added in 0.7
 498 2013-11-08 01:38:50 <maaku> does anyone know where the Bitcoin GUI settings are stored on Mac OS X?
 499 2013-11-08 01:39:06 <maaku> it's more of a Qt question.. they're in the registry in windows
 500 2013-11-08 01:39:11 bbrian has joined
 501 2013-11-08 01:39:12 <sipa> firepacket: but that's not what i mean; using OP_RETURN data for putting in a hash of some external data is fine
 502 2013-11-08 01:39:17 * Zarutian hasnt been quite following along
 503 2013-11-08 01:39:20 <firepacket> is there a bip or something I can read?
 504 2013-11-08 01:39:28 <Fistful_of_LTC> sipa: can't you just sign the data in the "arbitrary data"
 505 2013-11-08 01:39:30 <firepacket> oh
 506 2013-11-08 01:39:44 <sipa> firepacket: i'm just worried that it is too easy, and will be abused to actually serve as data storage in the block chain
 507 2013-11-08 01:39:52 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 508 2013-11-08 01:40:00 <Fistful_of_LTC> like put a tinyurl, sign the content, have the hash in the OP_RETURN as well as the tinyurl.
 509 2013-11-08 01:40:01 <sipa> (which is, compared to every other alternative, much better)
 510 2013-11-08 01:40:07 <Zarutian> sipa: hash that can then be put into barebones magnet uri and fetched by whatever method, yes?
 511 2013-11-08 01:40:08 CodeName has joined
 512 2013-11-08 01:40:09 <Fistful_of_LTC> let higher level deal with verification
 513 2013-11-08 01:40:42 reneg_ has joined
 514 2013-11-08 01:41:11 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 515 2013-11-08 01:41:46 Coincidental has joined
 516 2013-11-08 01:41:52 <firepacket> ultimately though, you can't really stop people from using the blockchain for storage. it's the fee structure that has to protect against this abuse
 517 2013-11-08 01:42:40 <Zarutian> what is the current fee structure? linear increase in fee in relation to tx size?
 518 2013-11-08 01:43:22 <maaku> found it ~/Library/Preferences/
 519 2013-11-08 01:43:25 reneg_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 520 2013-11-08 01:43:25 <sipa> firepacket: fees don't pay those who have to verify, transport and store your data
 521 2013-11-08 01:43:29 reneg__ has joined
 522 2013-11-08 01:43:58 Coincidental has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 523 2013-11-08 01:44:04 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 524 2013-11-08 01:44:07 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
 525 2013-11-08 01:44:16 [Author] has joined
 526 2013-11-08 01:44:31 <Zarutian> should it be expotential fee in relation to tx size?
 527 2013-11-08 01:44:33 <Fistful_of_LTC> aside from you two in here
 528 2013-11-08 01:44:34 <firepacket> what do you mean?
 529 2013-11-08 01:44:38 <Zarutian> sipa: indeed.
 530 2013-11-08 01:44:39 <firepacket> thats what fees are for
 531 2013-11-08 01:44:41 <Fistful_of_LTC> what's the general consensus on mastercoin?
 532 2013-11-08 01:44:53 <sipa> firepacket: i'm running a node
 533 2013-11-08 01:45:00 <Evilmax> i have understan
 534 2013-11-08 01:45:03 <sipa> firepacket: anything you put in the blockchain ends up on my disk
 535 2013-11-08 01:45:03 <Evilmax> understand
 536 2013-11-08 01:45:07 <sipa> firepacket: you're not paying me for it
 537 2013-11-08 01:45:08 <Evilmax> tnnx michagogo|cloud
 538 2013-11-08 01:45:31 <sipa> i run a node, because i consider it useful
 539 2013-11-08 01:45:40 <firepacket> thats correct, but nobody is paying you to keep any of thsoe transactions on your disk
 540 2013-11-08 01:45:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|firepacket: Exactly
 541 2013-11-08 01:45:55 <sipa> if it's mostly used to store other people's data, rather than build a currency, i'll likely stop running a node
 542 2013-11-08 01:46:17 <Fistful_of_LTC> ah
 543 2013-11-08 01:46:21 <sipa> if it becomes hard to run a node because of that, bitcoin isn't really decentralized anymore
 544 2013-11-08 01:46:21 nvk has joined
 545 2013-11-08 01:46:27 <Fistful_of_LTC> makes more sense now
 546 2013-11-08 01:46:31 <Zarutian> sipa: this is what I didnt understand why satoshi didnt have x block cut off and a fixed reward after some halving
 547 2013-11-08 01:46:54 <Fistful_of_LTC> sipa: is there a possibility this OP_RETURN is removed?
 548 2013-11-08 01:46:56 mE\Ta has quit (Quit: transwarp)
 549 2013-11-08 01:47:01 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: removed?
 550 2013-11-08 01:47:12 <Zarutian> (basicly any unspent tx more than x blocks ago are lost)
 551 2013-11-08 01:47:15 <Fistful_of_LTC> deprecated in the future, due to what you said above
 552 2013-11-08 01:47:36 <sipa> OP_RETURN has existed forever
 553 2013-11-08 01:47:48 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 554 2013-11-08 01:47:48 <sipa> it's just being made standard and relayable now
 555 2013-11-08 01:47:56 <sipa> that's a local client policy, not a network rule
 556 2013-11-08 01:48:02 <Fistful_of_LTC> ok
 557 2013-11-08 01:48:33 <sipa> if it's removed, i'm sure some people would fork the client to re-enable it
 558 2013-11-08 01:48:52 <Fistful_of_LTC> motherforkers...
 559 2013-11-08 01:48:55 <sipa> and as i said, it's better than the alternatives for data storage
 560 2013-11-08 01:49:03 <firepacket> i guess i don't get the logic, if you're willing to store other people's transactions. why not store other people's transactional data?
 561 2013-11-08 01:49:16 <sipa> firepacket: ?
 562 2013-11-08 01:49:17 <Zarutian> talking about the Scripts spec, can anyone tell me if IF, ELSE and THEN constructs are nestable or not?
 563 2013-11-08 01:49:23 <sipa> Zarutian: they are
 564 2013-11-08 01:49:45 <sipa> firepacket: it's about what purpose it serves, and what the costs of that are
 565 2013-11-08 01:49:45 <firepacket> nevermind lol
 566 2013-11-08 01:49:50 <Zarutian> sipa: oh, okay. Suspected they werent. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
 567 2013-11-08 01:50:05 Coincidental has joined
 568 2013-11-08 01:50:15 <sipa> firepacket: if bitcoin grows faster because people use it for pure data storage, which doesn't help its economy, the cost to benefits factor decreases
 569 2013-11-08 01:50:22 <firepacket> it's true, full node maintenance needs to be accessible
 570 2013-11-08 01:50:26 <Fistful_of_LTC> alright sina, i see your concern. But it seems to me even if you have other people's data, and even if the blockchain gets to what now seems like a ridiculous size, it may be negigible in the future. And the possibility to have data on it actually offsets the downside of size.
 571 2013-11-08 01:51:26 <Zarutian> Fistful_of_LTC: I dont think the question is about storage capacity, more about bandwidth of shuttling the blocks around.
 572 2013-11-08 01:51:34 <sipa> and verification
 573 2013-11-08 01:51:46 <sipa> and latency degradation because of more data
 574 2013-11-08 01:52:06 <sipa> and impact on the UTXO set (which OP_RETURN, compared to other alternatives, doesn't have)
 575 2013-11-08 01:52:46 <firepacket> the issue is that the fees don't go to the nodes only the miners
 576 2013-11-08 01:52:54 <firepacket> shitty
 577 2013-11-08 01:52:55 <sipa> but the most important point is that for most cases (in particular mastercoin, as i understand it), there is no need to have that data in the block chain
 578 2013-11-08 01:53:09 <Fistful_of_LTC> ah
 579 2013-11-08 01:53:13 <sipa> it can be in a separate chain, merge-mined against bitcoin
 580 2013-11-08 01:53:13 * Zarutian thought the defacto pattern for including extra data in tx was <extra data> OP_DROP <usual transfer code>
 581 2013-11-08 01:53:17 <sipa> which has 0 cost to bitcoin
 582 2013-11-08 01:53:38 <sipa> Zarutian: nope, the problem is that that data enters the UTXO set
 583 2013-11-08 01:53:47 <sipa> with OP_RETURN transactions that's not the case
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 585 2013-11-08 01:55:32 <Zarutian> merge-mined? basicly, each block-chain regularly insert into each other a tx that link them to gether via prev-block hashes?
 586 2013-11-08 01:55:35 <Fistful_of_LTC> could i make a bet with existing bitcoin transactions?
 587 2013-11-08 01:56:51 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: not in the same way; i think there are some betting schemes possible in theory though
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 589 2013-11-08 01:56:53 <Zarutian> sipa: so an extra TXO that doesnt recive any satoshis contains the extra data then?
 590 2013-11-08 01:56:54 <firepacket> OP_RETURN makes the whole output unspendable?
 591 2013-11-08 01:56:58 <sipa> firepacket: indeed
 592 2013-11-08 01:57:05 <sipa> firepacket: _provably_ unspendable
 593 2013-11-08 01:57:20 Mike_B has joined
 594 2013-11-08 01:57:26 <sipa> Zarutian: merge-mining: putting the hash of the other chain in the coinbase
 595 2013-11-08 01:57:58 <Fistful_of_LTC> sipa: Mike hearn speaks of an 'oracle' that can verify if something happened, with smart properties i believe, is that possible right now?
 596 2013-11-08 01:58:03 <firepacket> so for every spendable transaction to refrence you propose creating a second to reference the first?
 597 2013-11-08 01:58:09 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: yes
 598 2013-11-08 01:58:22 <Fistful_of_LTC> without adding a layer on top of bitcoin?
 599 2013-11-08 01:58:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|firepacket: Specifically, OP_RETURN *means* "make this output unspendable", so if it's the first byte of the scriptPubKey you, as a node, know that you don't need to remember that transaction
 600 2013-11-08 01:58:48 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: yes
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 602 2013-11-08 01:59:08 <sipa> Fistful_of_LTC: talk to TD about that
 603 2013-11-08 01:59:15 <firepacket> But that does remove much of the utility of including extra data on a spendable transaction
 604 2013-11-08 01:59:26 <sipa> firepacket: how so?
 605 2013-11-08 01:59:40 <sipa> it's still in the block chain
 606 2013-11-08 01:59:45 <sipa> and travels with the transaction
 607 2013-11-08 01:59:51 <sipa> and the transaction provably commits to it
 608 2013-11-08 01:59:53 <firepacket> the data doesn't get hashed and verified when the output moves?
 609 2013-11-08 02:00:04 <sipa> yes it does
 610 2013-11-08 02:00:15 <sipa> it just doesn't enter the database
 611 2013-11-08 02:00:26 <sipa> of spendable outputs
 612 2013-11-08 02:00:32 <firepacket> okay
 613 2013-11-08 02:00:42 <sipa> (which is the most important thing to keep bitcoin block quickly verifiable)
 614 2013-11-08 02:00:47 eristisk has joined
 615 2013-11-08 02:00:47 <sipa> it's currently 260 MiB or so
 616 2013-11-08 02:00:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hmm, is that sourceforge adware installer something that's opt-in on a per-project basis?
 617 2013-11-08 02:01:04 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: it's opt-in, yes
 618 2013-11-08 02:01:16 <sipa> but i don't like where sf is going with that
 619 2013-11-08 02:01:38 <firepacket> okay, if you use op_return how do you provably link that data with the transaction your refrencing?
 620 2013-11-08 02:01:44 <ryan-c> is there a way to do 'bitcoind decoderawtransaction `bitcoind getrawtransaction <txid>`' in one command?
 621 2013-11-08 02:01:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Yeah, neither do I
 622 2013-11-08 02:01:58 <firepacket> it seems like you can use it to store data, but not to reference a transaction
 623 2013-11-08 02:02:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ryan-c: `bitcoind getrawtransaction <txid> 1`
 624 2013-11-08 02:02:23 <Zarutian> sipa, firepacket: the extra txout is part of the whole tx and because txin refers to the whole tx by hash and index tuple
 625 2013-11-08 02:02:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: Have you (pl) looked at Github's Releases feature they announced in July?
 626 2013-11-08 02:02:40 <ryan-c> michagogo|cloud: Thanks. Wasxn't clear what the verbose flag did there.
 627 2013-11-08 02:02:44 <Zarutian> (index as in unsigned positive integer)
 628 2013-11-08 02:04:13 <sipa> firepacket: i don't understand what you mean by referencing a transaction?
 629 2013-11-08 02:04:24 <sipa> firepacket: you can put a transaction hash in there
 630 2013-11-08 02:04:42 <firepacket> that just occured to me
 631 2013-11-08 02:04:50 <imton> guys, which port should I open in the server to allow RPC remotely? in my client i am getting "Errno::ECONNREFUSED: Connection refused - connect(2)"
 632 2013-11-08 02:04:58 <imton> (my client is ruby)
 633 2013-11-08 02:05:03 <sipa> imton: 8332 by default
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 635 2013-11-08 02:05:31 <imton> sipa: I set another port in the config...
 636 2013-11-08 02:05:35 <sipa> then that port
 637 2013-11-08 02:05:37 <imton> how can i verify it is working?
 638 2013-11-08 02:05:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|imton: You'll need to set rpcallowip
 639 2013-11-08 02:05:43 <Zarutian> side question: is there an unix domain socket option in bitcoind?
 640 2013-11-08 02:05:48 <sipa> Zarutian: no
 641 2013-11-08 02:05:52 <sipa> imton: connecting to it?
 642 2013-11-08 02:06:05 <imton> yup
 643 2013-11-08 02:06:06 <sipa> (which seems to be failing for you)
 644 2013-11-08 02:06:08 <imton> rpcallowip
 645 2013-11-08 02:06:11 <imton> ?
 646 2013-11-08 02:06:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|imton: By default it only accepts connections from localhost
 647 2013-11-08 02:06:26 <imton> oh
 648 2013-11-08 02:06:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|add an rpcallowip line to the config file on the daemon with the remote IP address you want to allow
 649 2013-11-08 02:06:53 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: if that was the problem, i think he'd get a different error
 650 2013-11-08 02:06:57 <imton> well.. my ip is dynamic
 651 2013-11-08 02:06:59 <ryan-c> Zarutian: You could use socat to make it available via a domain socket, but I'm guessing you want the socket so you can lock down the permissions.
 652 2013-11-08 02:07:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, would he?
 653 2013-11-08 02:07:15 <Zarutian> ryan-c: exactly
 654 2013-11-08 02:07:15 <firepacket> ok the only difference is that you wouldn't be able to find the extra data from a transaction. but you're right, mastercoin doesn't really need that ability
 655 2013-11-08 02:07:35 <ryan-c> Zarutian: Would making it require TLS auth help you there?
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 657 2013-11-08 02:07:45 <imton> I see rpcallowip allows wildcard :)
 658 2013-11-08 02:07:51 <firepacket> looking at a spendable transaction, you wouldn't know if there was extra data there without knowing where to look
 659 2013-11-08 02:08:09 <sipa> firepacket: sure you would
 660 2013-11-08 02:08:12 <firepacket> how?
 661 2013-11-08 02:08:13 <sipa> firepacket: it's just be wasteful
 662 2013-11-08 02:08:17 <sipa> it's just there...
 663 2013-11-08 02:08:28 <Zarutian> firepacket: hence my suggestion of letting the external transaction data hash be something that can be stuck into an magnet: uri
 664 2013-11-08 02:08:28 <sipa> whatever you put in a transaction script remains there
 665 2013-11-08 02:08:39 <sipa> Zarutian: i don't see the point
 666 2013-11-08 02:08:56 <ryan-c> Zarutian: actually, never mind, it doesn't appear to support listing with ssl
 667 2013-11-08 02:09:16 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: you'd get http 403 if rpcallowip doesn't match
 668 2013-11-08 02:09:20 <ryan-c> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Enabling_SSL_on_original_client_daemon
 669 2013-11-08 02:09:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ah, okay
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 671 2013-11-08 02:09:50 <Zarutian> ryan-c: not really. Thinking about running bitcoind on an non posix system inside an shim that provides illusion of posix syscall api
 672 2013-11-08 02:10:16 <ryan-c> what, like cygwin?
 673 2013-11-08 02:10:57 <Zarutian> sipa: allow the extra/external transaction data to be p2p transfered outside of bitcoin proto
 674 2013-11-08 02:10:57 <sipa> firepacket: and OP_RETURN is not an unspendable transaction; it's makes a single output of a transaction unspendable
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 676 2013-11-08 02:11:12 <firepacket> i was just about to say, i get it now
 677 2013-11-08 02:11:12 <sipa> Zarutian: getrawtransaction sendrawtransaction
 678 2013-11-08 02:11:15 <firepacket> you just make 1 outout op_return
 679 2013-11-08 02:11:25 <imton> thank you all, with rpcallowip=* now it is working
 680 2013-11-08 02:11:26 <firepacket> cool
 681 2013-11-08 02:11:26 reneg has joined
 682 2013-11-08 02:11:27 <sipa> Zarutian: ah, sorry
 683 2013-11-08 02:11:47 <imton> thought i know i shouldn't use that wildcard
 684 2013-11-08 02:11:48 <Zarutian> ryan-c: more like in capros domain
 685 2013-11-08 02:11:59 <sipa> Zarutian: i mean that you rarely need linking to arbitrary data
 686 2013-11-08 02:12:05 <ryan-c> Zarutian: not familiar with that
 687 2013-11-08 02:12:23 <sipa> Zarutian: but sure
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 691 2013-11-08 02:18:23 <firepacket> sipa: is mastercoin not using op_return?
 692 2013-11-08 02:18:58 <sipa> firepacket: unsure
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 694 2013-11-08 02:19:51 <Zarutian> ryan-c: see www.capros.org
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 696 2013-11-08 02:22:54 <Fistful_of_LTC> firepacket: i think they mention it will allow "Class C mastercoin transactions"
 697 2013-11-08 02:23:39 <Fistful_of_LTC> "Add 80 bytes of arbitrary data to each transaction.  A way to encode data in the most benign way since outputs are ‘Provably Prune-able’ and can safely be ignored when parsing the blockchain."
 698 2013-11-08 02:27:23 <firepacket> just read gavins post on op_return. i do get the reluctance but it's really an essential feature imo. i'm glad they are supprting it
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 714 2013-11-08 02:48:55 <Fistful_of_LTC> firepacket: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2738
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 727 2013-11-08 03:14:12 <dexX7> hello, is there a simple explaination for "TX rejected (code -22)" when sending a rawtx? this is the transaction in question: https://blockchain.info/tx/291860f4d2a247c44676dd8fdc1b1c17804aad25cdaf26e6c621ac6223608369^
 728 2013-11-08 03:14:55 <CodeShark> if it's already in the mempool of bitcoind it will be rejected
 729 2013-11-08 03:15:22 <CodeShark> since it's been relayed, it stands to reason your node has already seen it and has it in its mempool
 730 2013-11-08 03:16:16 <CodeShark> in other words, bitcoind won't allow you to send the same transaction twice
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 732 2013-11-08 03:17:28 <dexX7> hmm.. it happend on the first try, i sent it then via blockchained.info pushtx
 733 2013-11-08 03:18:28 <CodeShark> the other possibility is the fee
 734 2013-11-08 03:18:37 <CodeShark> you have three outputs that are smaller than 0.01 btc
 735 2013-11-08 03:18:46 <CodeShark> so it requires a relay fee
 736 2013-11-08 03:19:19 <CodeShark> other than that the transaction looks totally standard
 737 2013-11-08 03:19:56 <dexX7> i used a fee of 0.0002, the tx has a size of 506 byte
 738 2013-11-08 03:21:15 <CodeShark> check your node's mempool
 739 2013-11-08 03:21:21 <CodeShark> see if it has the transaction
 740 2013-11-08 03:21:33 <CodeShark> before it gets confirmed, that is
 741 2013-11-08 03:22:07 <CodeShark> if it's not there, then take a look at main.cpp - 711 GetMinFee
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 743 2013-11-08 03:24:23 <dexX7> thanks
 744 2013-11-08 03:25:12 <CodeShark> in the past I've added tracers to bitcoind to help me diagnose transaction errors
 745 2013-11-08 03:25:37 <CodeShark> I'm thinking it might not be such a bad idea to at least add compile-time options for it
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 755 2013-11-08 03:43:39 <CodeShark> oh, apparently your transaction is a doublespend
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 768 2013-11-08 03:51:16 <dexX7> that was intended, more or less. a similar tx with a slightly higher outgoing amounts and a fee of .0005 was smoothly accepted. thanks for your help. :)
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 785 2013-11-08 04:16:30 <MC1984> i think #bitcoin is getting raided by pol or something
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 810 2013-11-08 04:59:52 <dexX7> i found the source of problem. the dust threshold is actually 5460 satoshi instead of 5430.
 811 2013-11-08 05:00:11 <BlueMatt> did you find the docs that disagreed with the source? :p
 812 2013-11-08 05:00:18 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: did that just to mess with people
 813 2013-11-08 05:01:31 <dexX7> the post about 0.8.2 on the forums as well as https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2577 mentiones 5430
 814 2013-11-08 05:01:37 <BlueMatt> yep
 815 2013-11-08 05:01:47 <gavinandresen> one… two, Five!        …Three, sir…       Three!
 816 2013-11-08 05:01:49 <BlueMatt> someone copy/paste mistaked there...
 817 2013-11-08 05:02:40 <dexX7> :)
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 819 2013-11-08 05:04:39 <gavinandresen> if you care about dust threshold 5460 instead of 5430, you're going to be really unhappy with changes I hope to get into the 0.9 release that will make the dust threshold float
 820 2013-11-08 05:05:05 <gavinandresen> (float as in change as transaction fees go up/down, not float as in floating-point-format-variable)
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 822 2013-11-08 05:05:58 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I want you to write the bitcoinj spv-mode code that handles fees this time...
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 824 2013-11-08 05:06:09 <dexX7> it's no big deal, i was just wondering about rejected tx and then surprised when i noticed it
 825 2013-11-08 05:06:30 <BlueMatt> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/core/src/main/java/com/google/bitcoin/core/Wallet.java#3085
 826 2013-11-08 05:06:33 <BlueMatt> ^ that wasnt fun
 827 2013-11-08 05:07:10 <CodeShark> gavinandresen
 828 2013-11-08 05:07:25 <CodeShark> gavinandresen: have you written up something on the formula yet?
 829 2013-11-08 05:08:10 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'd have to page-swap Java knowledge back into my brain, and I think my swap partition is starting to fail
 830 2013-11-08 05:08:24 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: heh, well ok that could be a problem
 831 2013-11-08 05:09:23 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: formula for dust will be the same as it ever was, it will just be calculated based on the 1%-median fee we've seen recently instead of hard-coded
 832 2013-11-08 05:09:34 <gavinandresen> I think, I'm actually rebasing all that code right now....
 833 2013-11-08 05:09:48 <CodeShark> by recently seen you're talking about the last n blocks?
 834 2013-11-08 05:09:55 <CodeShark> last n blocks and mempool?
 835 2013-11-08 05:10:18 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: last 10,000 transactions that were in the mempool and left the mempool by being accepted into a block, to be exact
 836 2013-11-08 05:10:51 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: … well, last 10,000 zero-priority, fee-paying if we're talking transaction fees
 837 2013-11-08 05:11:05 <CodeShark> are you talking about a sort of moving average?
 838 2013-11-08 05:11:12 <gavinandresen> (since we can't really reason about transactions with both priority and fee > 0)
 839 2013-11-08 05:11:14 <BlueMatt> nice, relay nodes are seeing more spv checks (ie relays from nodes other than mine) instead of all block relays from my node
 840 2013-11-08 05:11:37 <BlueMatt> y'all should keep peering :)
 841 2013-11-08 05:12:19 <CodeShark> hmm, why 10,000?
 842 2013-11-08 05:12:58 <CodeShark> and why not just use the block chain itself (to make, for instance, SPV client logic simpler)
 843 2013-11-08 05:14:02 <gavinandresen> You're right, I'll make it 11,000, that is a better number.
 844 2013-11-08 05:14:06 <CodeShark> lol
 845 2013-11-08 05:14:35 <gavinandresen> I do have a write-up somewhere that talks about the SPV issue....
 846 2013-11-08 05:14:43 <CodeShark> perhaps we should run a few simulations with different n to see what happens
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 848 2013-11-08 05:15:44 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: no, you cant use the chain
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 850 2013-11-08 05:16:15 <CodeShark> BlueMatt: why not?
 851 2013-11-08 05:16:17 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: knock yourself out.  During development, I kept track of estimated fees/priority after various numbers, estimates need a minimum of 100 transactions, 10,000 seems like a reasonable number to keep around
 852 2013-11-08 05:16:29 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/6548612
 853 2013-11-08 05:16:40 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: because, evil miners.
 854 2013-11-08 05:16:43 <BlueMatt> essentially
 855 2013-11-08 05:17:02 <BlueMatt> as the person who will end up writing the bitcoinj client-side fee code, I prefer we dont use blocks :)
 856 2013-11-08 05:17:30 <CodeShark> perhaps the simplest SPV client logic of all is to just start at 0, try to send - if it fails, raise it small increments until it succeeds
 857 2013-11-08 05:18:17 KillYourTV has joined
 858 2013-11-08 05:19:05 <CodeShark> or set the minimum based on some hardcoded constants - and then raise incrementally until success
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 860 2013-11-08 05:20:43 <CodeShark> a slightly more complex approach is to use a random sampling
 861 2013-11-08 05:20:57 <BlueMatt> ewwwwww
 862 2013-11-08 05:21:04 <BlueMatt> better to ask someone
 863 2013-11-08 05:21:31 <CodeShark> you mean add a "getfee" message to the p2p protocol?
 864 2013-11-08 05:21:59 <gavinandresen> user experience with any "I'll just re-send the transaction" is awful, especially if the keys are encrypted, and especially on a device like a phone that only connects to catch up and send.
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 866 2013-11-08 05:22:54 <CodeShark> gavinandresen: multiple transactions with the corresponding fees could be signed at the same time
 867 2013-11-08 05:22:59 <gavinandresen> (pre-signing a bunch of variations of the transaction "just in case we need more fees" doesn't work either)
 868 2013-11-08 05:23:07 <CodeShark> and then the sending could be done in the background without requiring the key
 869 2013-11-08 05:23:18 <gavinandresen> … because you'll just end up locking inputs that the user might want to spend, and that sucks
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 871 2013-11-08 05:24:03 <CodeShark> well, the idea is that one of the presigned transactions will work
 872 2013-11-08 05:24:06 Liquid has joined
 873 2013-11-08 05:24:13 <CodeShark> so the inputs aren't locked up
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 878 2013-11-08 05:24:46 <CodeShark> you could add a change output to control the fee
 879 2013-11-08 05:24:48 <gavinandresen> you've got two inputs in your wallet:  1BTC and 50BTC.  Now you send 1BTC.  What happens?
 880 2013-11-08 05:24:53 <BlueMatt> what about hardware wallets...
 881 2013-11-08 05:25:03 <BlueMatt> really, you have to ask someone
 882 2013-11-08 05:25:05 <BlueMatt> p2p or otherwise
 883 2013-11-08 05:25:07 <BlueMatt> probably both
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 887 2013-11-08 05:26:15 <CodeShark> gavinandresen: if the wallet is designed such that you control the fee with a change output, you'd use both the 1BTC and 50BTC inputs for all the versions
 888 2013-11-08 05:26:39 <CodeShark> it does add a small cost of an extra input in the case that no fee is required
 889 2013-11-08 05:26:55 reneg has joined
 890 2013-11-08 05:27:23 <BlueMatt> plus signing txn can get /very/ expensive
 891 2013-11-08 05:27:25 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: right, so 49.something BTC are locked up and cannot be spent for some amount of time because you don't know WHICH change output will end up being used
 892 2013-11-08 05:27:31 <BlueMatt> just go look at the code fragment I linked above in bitcoinj's wallet
 893 2013-11-08 05:27:34 <gavinandresen> That sucks as a user experience
 894 2013-11-08 05:27:42 <BlueMatt> its /ugly/
 895 2013-11-08 05:27:54 <CodeShark> signing txn can get very expensive?!?!? it takes milliseconds on typical hardware
 896 2013-11-08 05:28:07 <CodeShark> I've even managed to sign on an 8 bit processor in a few seconds :p
 897 2013-11-08 05:28:58 <gavinandresen> CodeShark: okey dokey.  this is the point where I say "patches welcome", and start ignoring you
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 899 2013-11-08 05:29:19 <CodeShark> gavinandresen: I was just about to say you had a point - no need for rudeness :)
 900 2013-11-08 05:30:14 <BlueMatt> except you arent signing one transaction, you're signing a bunch of inputs
 901 2013-11-08 05:30:17 <BlueMatt> on an old android phone
 902 2013-11-08 05:30:25 <BlueMatt> with the signing done in...java
 903 2013-11-08 05:30:28 <BlueMatt> using BigIntegers
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 905 2013-11-08 05:30:30 <BlueMatt> which are immutable
 906 2013-11-08 05:31:01 <CodeShark> I have a secp256k1 implementation for android java that can perform point multiplication in milliseconds
 907 2013-11-08 05:31:32 <CodeShark> verification is much more expensive than signing
 908 2013-11-08 05:31:39 <CodeShark> signing can be highly optimized by using precomputed tables
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 910 2013-11-08 05:32:31 <CodeShark> I don't think performance is the real issue - although usability most certainly is
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 918 2013-11-08 05:43:04 <CodeShark> BlueMatt: In case you're interested, http://pastebin.com/umK1TQ5P
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 920 2013-11-08 05:44:37 <CodeShark> and that's without any precomputed tables
 921 2013-11-08 05:44:39 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: yea, Ive written a highly-optimized secp256k1 impl in java before
 922 2013-11-08 05:44:47 <BlueMatt> with like 10 different versions with/without tables
 923 2013-11-08 05:44:51 <BlueMatt> and different multiplication methods
 924 2013-11-08 05:45:06 <BlueMatt> and they were all slow as fuck, so I gave up and implemented jni bindings for sipa's secp256k1 library
 925 2013-11-08 05:45:20 <CodeShark> well, of course you're not going to beat natively-compiled C
 926 2013-11-08 05:45:21 <BlueMatt> well, faster than bouncycastle by a lot, but waay slower than native
 927 2013-11-08 05:45:52 <CodeShark> in any case, the important optimization application for sipa's library is verification, not signing
 928 2013-11-08 05:46:02 <CodeShark> for verification it can make a HUGE difference
 929 2013-11-08 05:46:06 <BlueMatt> yes, but its not slow at signing ;)
 930 2013-11-08 05:46:49 <CodeShark> right - point is, signing is less resource-intensive inherently and is done much less frequently (at least in terms of real-world bitcoin applications)
 931 2013-11-08 05:47:40 <CodeShark> and unless you're using an extremely slow processor performance is probably not a significant issue
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 934 2013-11-08 05:52:36 <CodeShark> even if it takes on the order of a second for most users it's probably tolerable
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 937 2013-11-08 05:53:06 <CodeShark> I mean. on the order of a second to do all the signing
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 939 2013-11-08 05:53:31 <CodeShark> network latency and confirmation times are bigger annoyances
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 946 2013-11-08 05:59:31 <CodeShark> intermittent network and variable quality of peers/peer selection are much thornier issues to solve
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 948 2013-11-08 06:08:47 <CodeShark> I'm also thinking that the "evil miner" issue might be somewhat mitigated by removing outlier transactions from blocks in the calculation
 949 2013-11-08 06:10:07 <CodeShark> if the mean of fees for transactions in the last n blocks is 0.0005 but a bunch of transactions also have fees that are much higher, you exclude those
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 951 2013-11-08 06:12:06 <CodeShark> having to maintain a mempool and check when transactions make it into blocks is the REAL complication in the algorithm here
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 953 2013-11-08 06:12:33 <CodeShark> that's where small devices simply will fail
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 959 2013-11-08 06:18:19 <CodeShark> so that seems to leave two alternatives in implementing an SPV client - either add a way to ask for fee estimates in the p2p protocol itself…or use trial and error until the transaction propagates
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 962 2013-11-08 06:19:07 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: or let miners advertise their fee policy
 963 2013-11-08 06:19:41 <Luke-Jr> could easily stick a pubkeyhash in blocks the miner can use to sign policy broadcast scripts with
 964 2013-11-08 06:19:43 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: there are two separate issues here - miner fee policy and relay policy
 965 2013-11-08 06:19:49 <Luke-Jr> true
 966 2013-11-08 06:19:59 <Luke-Jr> relay trial and error is pretty simple though
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 968 2013-11-08 06:20:10 <Luke-Jr> retry every minute until it comes back
 969 2013-11-08 06:21:35 <CodeShark> would be nice if the protocol allowed fees paid for relay and not just mining :)
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 971 2013-11-08 06:22:47 <CodeShark> there are only at best highly indirect economic incentives for full nodes to accept SPV client connections
 972 2013-11-08 06:23:27 <Luke-Jr> trivial to add a "pay to use" to the protocol :P
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 974 2013-11-08 06:25:19 <Luke-Jr> especially when/if we get debt-transactions
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 977 2013-11-08 06:29:33 <CodeShark> it would be wonderful to separate the two fee types completely
 978 2013-11-08 06:29:54 <CodeShark> then a relay node can set its own relay policy just as arbitrarily as a miner can
 979 2013-11-08 06:30:46 <CodeShark> it would create incentives to set up dedicated relay servers for thin clients
 980 2013-11-08 06:31:17 <CodeShark> while still maintaining decentralization
 981 2013-11-08 06:32:00 <CodeShark> furthermore, it doesn't really make economic sense for the relay nodes to be defining their policy based on what miners accept
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 983 2013-11-08 06:32:52 <CodeShark> a relay node cares about its own resource utilization primarily - and the speed/efficiency of the network as a whole secondarily
 984 2013-11-08 06:33:03 <imton> how'd the protocol force senders to pay to the relay-er?
 985 2013-11-08 06:33:51 <CodeShark> the relayer could require an output they provide to be in the transaction
 986 2013-11-08 06:34:24 <CodeShark> however, this only seems to make sense if the relayer is directly connected to the miners
 987 2013-11-08 06:34:55 <CodeShark> once you're more than two steps removed it gets much more complicated
 988 2013-11-08 06:35:03 <Eneerge> any of you done much firefox addon development? Anyone know how to detect when one of the firefox error pages is shown. EG: no cipher overlap, 404 errors, etc. I think those are chrome pages.... I have it intercepting all connections before they occur and I can get the response if the connection was successful, but if any chrome page loads, no event is thrown that i'm aware of
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 990 2013-11-08 06:36:23 <imton> why does it only makes sense if the relayer is directly connected to the miners only?
 991 2013-11-08 06:36:39 <CodeShark> if you require an additional hop, how does that node get paid?
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 993 2013-11-08 06:37:07 <CodeShark> if a transaction takes multiple paths to the miner, each version will also be different
 994 2013-11-08 06:37:43 <imton> right
 995 2013-11-08 06:37:50 <imton> we always want the shortest path
 996 2013-11-08 06:37:58 <CodeShark> I suppose you could pay a relay node up front to process so many messages or whatever
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 998 2013-11-08 06:38:32 <CodeShark> hub nodes could get wholesale pricing or even free direct connections to miners
 999 2013-11-08 06:39:07 <CodeShark> but then you need proof that the node actually relayed the transaction
1000 2013-11-08 06:39:21 <CodeShark> and to what peers - etc...
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1004 2013-11-08 06:43:17 <CodeShark> perhaps we'll just end up getting a few commercial services that offer fast relay with high availability for a fee
1005 2013-11-08 06:44:12 <CodeShark> and all these things can be negotiated over some higher level protocol
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1054 2013-11-08 08:07:03 <last1> anyone using eloipool ? I set it up and mined for quite a bit at roughly 60/65 ghs. submitted about 16 million shares but got no coins
1055 2013-11-08 08:07:08 <last1> is this normal / to be expected ?
1056 2013-11-08 08:08:05 <Luke-Jr> last1: yes, any further belongs in #bitcoin-mining really
1057 2013-11-08 08:08:58 <last1> k, I thought it might be an issue with eloipool
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1068 2013-11-08 08:36:32 <imton> guys, I am using sipa's watch-only
1069 2013-11-08 08:36:49 <imton> I have been a month without off bitcoin world
1070 2013-11-08 08:37:02 <imton> I can't remember the API call to get all tx related to an address
1071 2013-11-08 08:37:09 <imton> *txs
1072 2013-11-08 08:39:24 <sipa> there isn't one
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1074 2013-11-08 08:40:07 <sipa> you have listtransactions, which works per account
1075 2013-11-08 08:40:18 <sipa> listunspent maybe
1076 2013-11-08 08:40:24 reneg has joined
1077 2013-11-08 08:40:32 <imton> mmm... I will be handling wallet outside bitcoind for my users
1078 2013-11-08 08:41:07 lachesis has joined
1079 2013-11-08 08:41:37 <imton> I mean.. which is the closest call to your "searchrawtransactions" call in the other branch
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1086 2013-11-08 08:48:35 <shripadk> hey guys :)
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1088 2013-11-08 08:50:54 <shripadk> if i send to two multisig addresses (one is 2-of-3 and the other 2-of-2) in a single transaction, can the amount be redeemed? does the limit of 520 byte scriptPubKey and 500 byte scriptSigs cause any problems?
1089 2013-11-08 08:51:07 <imton> sipa: in fact i am porting my code from searchrawtransactions call to watch-only
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1091 2013-11-08 08:53:20 <sipa> listtransactions
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1093 2013-11-08 08:55:17 <imton> sipa: that's for accounts... should I add a new account for each address I import?
1094 2013-11-08 08:55:47 <shripadk> also while redeeming the amount, how do i decide the amount of fee that needs to be included? the only input is the multisig address (via txid + scriptPubKey + redeemScript) and the only output will be the recipient address. will it always be 0.0001btc even for large amounts?
1095 2013-11-08 08:56:31 <sipa> imton: what is your use case?
1096 2013-11-08 08:57:02 reizuki__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1097 2013-11-08 08:57:08 <imton> sipa: let's say online exchange/escrow service
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1099 2013-11-08 09:00:12 <sipa> imton: you have some database where you keep each user's balance?
1100 2013-11-08 09:01:07 <imton> it was a a cache that was updated according to the user wallet, yes
1101 2013-11-08 09:01:16 <sipa> ok
1102 2013-11-08 09:01:41 <sipa> so just use listtransactions, and see if you see any new receives since the previous call
1103 2013-11-08 09:01:45 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1104 2013-11-08 09:02:03 <imton> ok but how about account handling?
1105 2013-11-08 09:02:07 <sipa> and then credit the balance of the users those addresses belong to
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1107 2013-11-08 09:02:09 <imton> should I use 1 account only?
1108 2013-11-08 09:02:19 <sipa> forget about accounts
1109 2013-11-08 09:02:48 <sipa> they're only useful if you'd do all handling inside bitcoin
1110 2013-11-08 09:02:59 <sipa> and have many issues in that case
1111 2013-11-08 09:03:01 <imton> oh, I see , you want me to use this " If [account] not provided will return recent transaction from all accounts."
1112 2013-11-08 09:03:06 <imton> right?
1113 2013-11-08 09:03:28 <sipa> you can specify account "*" explicitly
1114 2013-11-08 09:03:54 <sipa> which means everything
1115 2013-11-08 09:03:54 <HaltingState> my hardware bitcoin wallet is going to be laser cut anodized aluminum; this is going to look awesome http://i.imgur.com/eUDL3oQ.jpg
1116 2013-11-08 09:04:07 <imton> sipa: great. And do i see both received and spent transactions with listtransactions right?
1117 2013-11-08 09:04:33 <sipa> imton: you shouldn't care about spends imho
1118 2013-11-08 09:04:47 <sipa> imton: you know when you're sending coins, no?
1119 2013-11-08 09:05:06 <imton> sipa:  I should. Yes.
1120 2013-11-08 09:05:30 <imton> sipa: but I want to know if I can rely on "listtransactions" for everything related to addresses
1121 2013-11-08 09:05:30 <sipa> this is for a cold/hot wallet solution, right?
1122 2013-11-08 09:06:08 <sipa> or for a system where the wallet is not yours?
1123 2013-11-08 09:06:25 <imton> sipa: cold/hot wallet
1124 2013-11-08 09:06:40 <imton> well.. no, sorry.
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1127 2013-11-08 09:06:52 <imton> I mean, is a service for people
1128 2013-11-08 09:07:13 <sipa> yes, but is the actual spending wallet yours or theirs?
1129 2013-11-08 09:07:25 <sipa> i mean, who has the actual private keys
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1131 2013-11-08 09:07:51 <imton> Well right now we do, but I am rethinking it to they
1132 2013-11-08 09:08:06 <imton> so they are encrypted locally (kind of blockchain wallet)
1133 2013-11-08 09:08:23 xiangfu has joined
1134 2013-11-08 09:08:25 <imton> it's not lunched yet so, i have time to do it right
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1136 2013-11-08 09:09:09 <sipa> so, listtransactions will report both sends and receives
1137 2013-11-08 09:09:44 <sipa> but if the spends are from a waller you don't control, you can't rely on sends being interpreted correctly
1138 2013-11-08 09:09:49 <imton> I just don't want to rely on blockchain.info webapi service, I want to host my own blockchain locally
1139 2013-11-08 09:10:40 <sipa> if you just need the balance of someone's wallet, you can tally up receives minus sends of course
1140 2013-11-08 09:11:09 <sipa> though in that case it may actually make sense to use the accounts system, and use an account per user
1141 2013-11-08 09:11:19 <imton> sipa: in the case another wallet i don't control spends the same txout, will I see it with listtransactions?
1142 2013-11-08 09:11:39 <imton> sipa: yes,  1 account for each user may be a little more organized.
1143 2013-11-08 09:11:40 <sipa> yes
1144 2013-11-08 09:11:52 <imton> sipa: great
1145 2013-11-08 09:12:07 <sipa> but you are aware that you'll need to know about the user's wallet
1146 2013-11-08 09:12:19 <imton> yes
1147 2013-11-08 09:12:22 <sipa> every time a new key gets used, you'll need to know it in advance
1148 2013-11-08 09:12:44 <imton> oh, you are right
1149 2013-11-08 09:12:52 <sipa> which really requires deterministic wallets to do right
1150 2013-11-08 09:13:37 <imton> ok, then I think the most similar thing to searchrawtransactions would be using one account only
1151 2013-11-08 09:14:00 <sipa> this is independent from how you implement things
1152 2013-11-08 09:14:17 <sipa> you need to know of every key in the wallet before it gets used
1153 2013-11-08 09:15:49 <imton> great
1154 2013-11-08 09:15:54 <sipa> which works if it's your own wallet of course
1155 2013-11-08 09:16:09 <sipa> but i don't see how you'd do it for other people's wallets
1156 2013-11-08 09:16:19 <sipa> without deterministic wallets
1157 2013-11-08 09:17:07 <imton> I am reading about deterministic wallets
1158 2013-11-08 09:17:15 <imton> never heard of them before
1159 2013-11-08 09:17:26 <sipa> it's just about this problem
1160 2013-11-08 09:17:35 <sipa> every time a user does a transaction
1161 2013-11-08 09:17:49 <sipa> change goes to a new freshly-generated address of his
1162 2013-11-08 09:18:01 <sipa> you need to know about this change address in advance
1163 2013-11-08 09:18:40 <sipa> because otherwise you cannot know that this is a send-to-self output, rather than coins that left the wallet
1164 2013-11-08 09:19:08 <imton> but I can generate a new address at the time a tx is made for the change, right?
1165 2013-11-08 09:19:22 <imton> or use one from a pool of pre-generated
1166 2013-11-08 09:19:22 <sipa> if it is your wallet, sure
1167 2013-11-08 09:19:48 <imton> I don't get what is the problem if it is other people's wallet...
1168 2013-11-08 09:20:06 <sipa> you cannot know an address that they don't have yet
1169 2013-11-08 09:20:30 <imton> oh, but my system will be generating a new one for them
1170 2013-11-08 09:20:42 <imton> or use one pre-generated just for them
1171 2013-11-08 09:20:54 t7 has joined
1172 2013-11-08 09:20:59 <imton> I mean, each user account has a wallet.
1173 2013-11-08 09:21:02 eoss has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1174 2013-11-08 09:21:10 <sipa> wait... what?
1175 2013-11-08 09:21:18 <sipa> you are generating their keys?
1176 2013-11-08 09:21:37 <imton> as an any exchange do...
1177 2013-11-08 09:21:42 <imton> ?
1178 2013-11-08 09:22:00 <imton> or they can be generated locally in their browser (by js)
1179 2013-11-08 09:22:16 <sipa> oh
1180 2013-11-08 09:22:32 <sipa> so it's still a wallet under your control
1181 2013-11-08 09:22:44 <sipa> not an arbitrary wallet controlled by the user
1182 2013-11-08 09:23:26 <sipa> i'm no fan of systems that claim to do things client-side
1183 2013-11-08 09:23:44 <sipa> but it seems tp work marketing-wise :(
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1193 2013-11-08 09:33:07 <adam3us> sipa, imton: you could securely derive an address for someone else, just bip 33 doesnt support it
1194 2013-11-08 09:34:01 <adam3us> sipa, imton: bip32 (typo).. ie you do rG+Q and encrypt r for the recipient (eg reusing Q as the public key for pub key encryption)
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1197 2013-11-08 09:34:57 <adam3us> sipa, imton: the cost is you need a full node to recognize your own payments, cant use spv & bloom filter
1198 2013-11-08 09:35:15 <sipa> adam3us: use case is a bit different here
1199 2013-11-08 09:35:48 <imton> adam3us: I need to learn about that yet
1200 2013-11-08 09:35:49 Eiii has quit (!~NA@unaffiliated/eiii|)
1201 2013-11-08 09:36:04 <sipa> sorry, i'm on a phone now; will explain later
1202 2013-11-08 09:36:21 <adam3us> imton: whats the use case?
1203 2013-11-08 09:36:40 <imton> sipa: isn't client side (js) under my control if the wallet (i.e. JSON) is entrypted under user password/passphrase?
1204 2013-11-08 09:36:53 <imton> sipa:, sorry, question was "is" not "isn't"
1205 2013-11-08 09:37:11 <imton> adam3us: use case is an exchange service
1206 2013-11-08 09:37:34 <adam3us> imton: you want to think about type2 exchange like bitalo claims to be working on
1207 2013-11-08 09:37:57 <adam3us> imton: then the exchange doesnt have the bitcoin ownership
1208 2013-11-08 09:38:08 <imton> adam3us: but in my service, the exchange will be done between people directly.
1209 2013-11-08 09:38:22 <adam3us> imton: ok even a type3 exchange :) even better
1210 2013-11-08 09:38:51 <adam3us> imton: relying on atomic swap protocol?
1211 2013-11-08 09:39:01 <imton> adam3us : where can I find more info about that "bitalo" ?
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1213 2013-11-08 09:39:11 <adam3us> imton: what are the users paying for their bitcoins?
1214 2013-11-08 09:39:31 <imton> USD or services, whatever they want
1215 2013-11-08 09:39:37 <imton> we are more like an escrow
1216 2013-11-08 09:40:47 <adam3us> ye are you escrowing the usd?
1217 2013-11-08 09:41:44 <imton> nop. btcs
1218 2013-11-08 09:41:59 <imton> we'd need to own the btcs then, yes.
1219 2013-11-08 09:42:08 <imton> the "sellers" btcs
1220 2013-11-08 09:42:44 <adam3us> imton: i dont think you need to own them, just get them paid into a 2 of 2 multisig address that the user holds one key and you hold the other
1221 2013-11-08 09:43:07 <adam3us> imton: thats what i mean type2 like bitalo
1222 2013-11-08 09:43:33 <imton> well.. I though about that
1223 2013-11-08 09:44:23 <adam3us> imton: but i dont think it stops the cheating, how is the buyer paying? by any means like bitcoin-otc? then buyer will claim they paid and seller will claim they didnt, or tht payment was for something unrelated, and you cant tell who is lying
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1225 2013-11-08 09:44:56 TD[away] is now known as TD
1226 2013-11-08 09:45:23 <imton> well, the service main asset is the building of trust
1227 2013-11-08 09:45:36 <imton> it is not for the people how want to be fully anonymous
1228 2013-11-08 09:46:53 <adam3us> imton: this is how to derive an address safely for someone else (where you do not have their seed, nor chain code)  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=317835.msg3408519#msg3408519
1229 2013-11-08 09:47:24 <imton> awesome, will read that!
1230 2013-11-08 09:47:43 <imton> adam3us I was thinking about the 2of 2 multisig but I can't remember something I couldn't understand
1231 2013-11-08 09:47:45 <adam3us> imton: yes but trust sucks; and irrevocable ecash / digital bearer certificates are the worst case scenario
1232 2013-11-08 09:49:05 <adam3us> imton: perfect crime scenario, its like buying bitcoin with credit-cards you basically cant do it, squishy, weak, revocable, insecure system plus reputation meets cold hard irrevocable ecash - squishy system loses fast
1233 2013-11-08 09:49:21 <TD> you *can* do it
1234 2013-11-08 09:49:24 <TD> it just requires extreme care
1235 2013-11-08 09:49:27 <TD> and amazing business deals
1236 2013-11-08 09:49:34 <TD> and that you have a video of someone at visa or mastercard snorting coke
1237 2013-11-08 09:49:49 <adam3us> imton: as good as it gets is probably like bitcoin-otc that has reputation based on pgp signature web of trust
1238 2013-11-08 09:50:37 <imton> adam3us: I get what you say, but I think if I want to make a service my friends and mom can use, PGP and lot of encryption info doesn't work with them
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1240 2013-11-08 09:51:08 <imton> adam3us: building services on top of bitcoin means trying to  balance that trade-offs depending of what you are buliding
1241 2013-11-08 09:51:13 <adam3us> imton: sure, it has to be simplified UX and yet still end2end secure; a problem can be most users cant remember enough entropy to be secure period
1242 2013-11-08 09:51:43 <imton> adam3us: sure, "1234" password won't be allowed :p
1243 2013-11-08 09:52:16 <adam3us> imton: yes but also mothers middle name your date of birth ddmmyy also also nearly as insecure and its hard to prevent
1244 2013-11-08 09:52:47 _ingsoc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1245 2013-11-08 09:52:58 <adam3us> imton: this is bitalo type2 play: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1pjf1p/bitalo_a_safer_online_bitcoin_wallet_and_exchange/
1246 2013-11-08 09:53:14 <imton> well.. I think one big part of any service trying to simplify bitcoins if to train and educate they users
1247 2013-11-08 09:53:38 <imton> but I can't ask them for everything at day 1.
1248 2013-11-08 09:54:50 <imton> adam3us:  thanks for that link too
1249 2013-11-08 09:55:48 <imton> ama3us: about the multi sign tx you said.. The problem I was thinking was that the seller needs to know to witch user to send it..right?
1250 2013-11-08 09:55:50 <Happzz> is it reasonable that the testnet blockchain is like around the 300mb only?
1251 2013-11-08 09:56:53 <imton> adamus: but if the seller doesn't know who will be selling to because they just want to place the selling order.... how can he use multisign to then send the tx instantly at the order-matched time?
1252 2013-11-08 10:02:10 <imton> Happzz:  yes
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1290 2013-11-08 11:21:27 <Evilmax> hi
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1292 2013-11-08 11:22:11 <Evilmax> where can i get a php script to insert in my site the current exchange rate? (eur & $) ?
1293 2013-11-08 11:22:15 <adam3us> imton: step one, pay your own money to a 2 of 2 address with one address controlled by the exchange
1294 2013-11-08 11:22:16 debiantoruser has joined
1295 2013-11-08 11:23:09 <adam3us> imton: oops hes gone
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1300 2013-11-08 11:32:47 <midnightmagic> t/window goto 7
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1302 2013-11-08 11:36:16 <TD> sipa: did you ever get a chance to write up an explanation of the merkle branch format?
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1313 2013-11-08 11:49:16 <SomeoneWeird> http://www.openssh.com/txt/gcmrekey.adv
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1320 2013-11-08 11:58:49 <SomeoneWeird> CVE-2013-4548
1321 2013-11-08 12:01:30 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1322 2013-11-08 12:02:50 <owowo> that's weird
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1325 2013-11-08 12:05:56 <SomeoneWeird> ur weird
1326 2013-11-08 12:07:21 <owowo> that makes us 2 ;o)
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1328 2013-11-08 12:10:17 <sipa> TD: haven't found the time
1329 2013-11-08 12:10:38 <sipa> Evilmax: what is "the" exchange rate?
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1331 2013-11-08 12:15:32 <t7> mtgox weighted avg is pretty universal
1332 2013-11-08 12:16:02 <t7> which is a shame
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1346 2013-11-08 12:49:05 <Apocalyptic> can someone explain me why f5322a5267f31dd1ff842f38f334bfeccd23352c0d34c25d9b1813f1458be063 is not included in a block yet ? the priority of the tx should be high enough
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1348 2013-11-08 12:51:10 <tcatm> It doesn't have a fee and the inputs are quite young.
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1350 2013-11-08 12:51:40 <xeroc> short general question: a P2SH is gives me a new address from which you need some script to spend coins from .... while op_multicheck does essentially the same for individual transactions ?!?! is this about right?
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1354 2013-11-08 12:52:16 <xeroc> op_checkmultisig is nowthing more than what blockchain.info was using for escrow ...
1355 2013-11-08 12:52:44 <sipa> xeroc: p2sh is just a way of moving the actual script from the output to the input
1356 2013-11-08 12:52:56 <sipa> what you put inside can be a multisig script, but doesn't have to be
1357 2013-11-08 12:53:40 <sipa> it has the advantage that the sender does not need to know (or care) what the actual script it (it's the receiver's business what he does with it)
1358 2013-11-08 12:53:52 <sipa> and putting less data in the UTXO set, which is critical for performance
1359 2013-11-08 12:53:53 <xeroc> ahh ..
1360 2013-11-08 12:54:13 <xeroc> now I even understand whats stated in the abstract of the bip ...
1361 2013-11-08 12:55:06 <xeroc> sipa: thanks for clarification
1362 2013-11-08 12:55:10 <sipa> yw
1363 2013-11-08 12:57:42 <Apocalyptic> tcatm, true but it's not a low priority tx
1364 2013-11-08 12:58:18 <sipa> Apocalyptic: there's only a limited space in most miner configuration for feeless transactions
1365 2013-11-08 12:58:38 <sipa> Apocalyptic: so it may satisfy all relay rules, it still has to be picked up by a miner
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1368 2013-11-08 13:08:18 <adam3us> sipa: why is that? i thin the average block size is like 100-200kB and the limit 1MB
1369 2013-11-08 13:08:45 <adam3us> sipa: so why would they throttle free (but non dust) transactions - to "encourage" fees?
1370 2013-11-08 13:09:03 paraipan has joined
1371 2013-11-08 13:09:16 <sipa> adam3us: i haven't followed all developments around the block inclusion policy
1372 2013-11-08 13:09:22 <sipa> adam3us: gmaxwell may know better
1373 2013-11-08 13:09:32 <adam3us> sipa: (presuming also its not young, the other anti-churn policy)
1374 2013-11-08 13:09:53 <adam3us> sipa: ok... just seems retrograde to let peoples free transactions stall
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1378 2013-11-08 13:17:47 <TD> adam3us: a lot of miners don't bother to change bitcoind defaults
1379 2013-11-08 13:17:52 <TD> adam3us: the default is 250kb soft limit. simple as that.
1380 2013-11-08 13:17:53 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1381 2013-11-08 13:18:10 <TD> adam3us: look at how many blocks are exactly 243kb (i forget the exact reason it doesn't go up to 250 but it's to do with the algorithm used)
1382 2013-11-08 13:18:33 <sipa> 243 * 1.024 ~ 250 ?
1383 2013-11-08 13:18:55 <TD> adam3us: basically the majority of miners still need babysitting by the developers. they don't have the tools to really get insight into the consequences of their chosen configurations, and they get the inflation, so why change things?
1384 2013-11-08 13:19:05 <TD> sipa: oh right, yeah, 1000 vs 1024 confusion in the code could be it
1385 2013-11-08 13:19:21 <TD> adam3us: i keep meaning to submit a pull req that defaults the soft limit to the hard limit
1386 2013-11-08 13:19:29 <sipa> iirc inside bitcoind all constants/calculations use 1000-based kilobytes
1387 2013-11-08 13:20:04 <TD> also i'd like to write a patch that when receiving a block, shows the fees that *could* have been claimed, but weren't
1388 2013-11-08 13:20:11 <TD> so miners can see what they're missing out on
1389 2013-11-08 13:20:16 <TD> but soooo many things i need to do :)
1390 2013-11-08 13:20:21 * TD -> back to work
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1413 2013-11-08 13:50:06 ds is now known as away!ds@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-kqsgikodvlabxlrd|dongshengcn
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1421 2013-11-08 14:00:06 darsie has joined
1422 2013-11-08 14:00:40 <darsie> Block 268531 is 468.27 kB. Isn't the maximum block size 250 KB?
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1426 2013-11-08 14:11:33 <TD> no
1427 2013-11-08 14:11:38 <TD> darsie: max size is 1mb
1428 2013-11-08 14:11:49 <TD> darsie: however some miners have a default setting that means they won't create larger blocks by policy
1429 2013-11-08 14:11:55 <darsie> k
1430 2013-11-08 14:12:51 <darsie> damn, now 4 block without my tx ... https://blockchain.info/tx/00c9147fca2dcdeb57e8392a96bd10ed608c116a32ae41ae5386ecb5eab91de3
1431 2013-11-08 14:14:25 <kjj> it is in my mempool.  not that I'm likely to find a block this year, but at least you know your transaction has spread across the network
1432 2013-11-08 14:15:49 HaltingState has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1433 2013-11-08 14:17:54 <darsie> kjj: thx. I have a confirm now.
1434 2013-11-08 14:18:24 dvide has quit ()
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1436 2013-11-08 14:19:36 <darsie> So, is the solution to this to increase the fee? On the sender side.
1437 2013-11-08 14:21:22 <kjj> higher fees is the most likely to work.  having a good priority ratio isn't a bad idea either though
1438 2013-11-08 14:21:54 <darsie> Yeah, well, the latter isn't always possible.
1439 2013-11-08 14:29:19 duckybsd has joined
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1441 2013-11-08 14:33:06 Syphor_William has joined
1442 2013-11-08 14:33:10 darsie has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
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1451 2013-11-08 14:39:31 <HaltingState> sipa, this is going to be the fob for my bitcoin hardware wallet; its like $30 http://i.imgur.com/g2tvYbV.jpg
1452 2013-11-08 14:39:44 <HaltingState> i was going to build my own but its like "screw that"
1453 2013-11-08 14:40:25 agnostic98 has joined
1454 2013-11-08 14:40:33 Odyessus has joined
1455 2013-11-08 14:41:10 <kjj> sparkfun?
1456 2013-11-08 14:41:15 <Zarutian> HaltingState: olay, where could one buy this?
1457 2013-11-08 14:41:20 <Zarutian> okay*
1458 2013-11-08 14:42:39 <HaltingState> http://imall.iteadstudio.com/
1459 2013-11-08 14:42:47 <HaltingState> do you do arduino?
1460 2013-11-08 14:42:56 <HaltingState> do you want to get in on my hardware wallet project
1461 2013-11-08 14:43:11 Odyessus has quit (Client Quit)
1462 2013-11-08 14:43:26 <HaltingState> i am compiling the libsec256k1 library and key manage stuff to this https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21517274/img/IMG_4226.JPG so it can do key storage and signing
1463 2013-11-08 14:44:07 <HaltingState> its does not have kernel, does not run android etc; nothing to root kit and can verify its own firmware; and it wont be directly connected to internet but has to communicate over serial cable; so its most secure thing for bitcoin key storage
1464 2013-11-08 14:44:26 profreid has quit (Quit: profreid)
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1469 2013-11-08 14:48:56 <thermoman> hi
1470 2013-11-08 14:50:02 <thermoman> a 0.7.2 client (named foo) sent some bitcoins (CommitTransaction:) while the peer node that foo uses in bitcoind.conf as connect=<ip> was down
1471 2013-11-08 14:50:19 <Zarutian> HaltingState: so it is this sheild with LCD module on it http://imall.iteadstudio.com/development-platform/arduino/shields/im120417001.html
1472 2013-11-08 14:50:42 <thermoman> now the balance of foo's wallet decreased 1000 BTC but the txid foo returned does not show up on the network
1473 2013-11-08 14:50:51 fanquake has left ()
1474 2013-11-08 14:50:53 <thermoman> will foo try to resent the tx?
1475 2013-11-08 14:51:10 <HaltingState> Zarutian,
1476 2013-11-08 14:51:11 <HaltingState> http://imall.iteadstudio.com/im120424001.html
1477 2013-11-08 14:51:11 <HaltingState> http://imall.iteadstudio.com/development-platform/arduino/shields/im120417001.html
1478 2013-11-08 14:51:11 <HaltingState> http://imall.iteadstudio.com/im120411008.html
1479 2013-11-08 14:51:24 <HaltingState> $5.50, $6.80, $18.50
1480 2013-11-08 14:51:59 <Zarutian> thanks
1481 2013-11-08 14:52:17 <Zarutian> I am trying to figgure out if I can source this locally where I live.
1482 2013-11-08 14:54:09 MC1984 has joined
1483 2013-11-08 14:54:33 damethos has joined
1484 2013-11-08 14:54:35 <Zarutian> but I like your idea/thinking
1485 2013-11-08 14:54:48 <thermoman> sipa: any idea? ^
1486 2013-11-08 14:57:16 <Zarutian> HaltingState: but do you think that 32K is enough capacity to store the whole libsec256k1 library and some menu logic with text?
1487 2013-11-08 14:57:57 nvk has joined
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1492 2013-11-08 15:00:27 <dobry-den> Is anyone interested in a ECDA + secp256k1 pure Java implementation?
1493 2013-11-08 15:00:40 <dobry-den> ECDSA*
1494 2013-11-08 15:01:52 <dobry-den> pure was the wrong word. I'm weaning my client off Bouncy Castle and Java's nebulous crypto interface.
1495 2013-11-08 15:02:39 <TD> it's better to just JNI to libsecp256k1 i think
1496 2013-11-08 15:02:59 <TD> as you observe, bouncy castle is already just java by itself.
1497 2013-11-08 15:03:03 <TD> we need less purity :)
1498 2013-11-08 15:03:46 <dobry-den> Hah, right. By "pure" I meant "untainted by nebulous APIs".
1499 2013-11-08 15:04:14 <Zarutian> HaltingSate: I would recommend that you add an protosheild between the 'duino and the keypad sheild so you can add extra flashchips that can be accessed via spi.
1500 2013-11-08 15:04:19 bmcgee has joined
1501 2013-11-08 15:05:04 <HaltingState> Zarutian, no
1502 2013-11-08 15:05:07 <HaltingState> i am using 32 bit arm for that
1503 2013-11-08 15:05:11 <HaltingState> http://i.imgur.com/HKbzn4g.jpg.
1504 2013-11-08 15:05:33 <Zarutian> HaltingState: heck, that would give you option to add a nokia squareish battery
1505 2013-11-08 15:05:40 <HaltingState> Zarutian, it can use a memory card up to 2 GB i think
1506 2013-11-08 15:05:44 <HaltingState> on the back there is slot for a SD card
1507 2013-11-08 15:06:18 firepacket has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1508 2013-11-08 15:06:27 <dobry-den> TD: I've implemented curve math in Clojure, and I've been building a keypair interface on top of it. Ideally I would find someone working on their own Java tools that would like to collab since my code is interoperable.
1509 2013-11-08 15:06:33 <thermoman> sipa: sendrawtransaction did yield: error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX decode failed"}
1510 2013-11-08 15:06:40 <thermoman> i'm stuck
1511 2013-11-08 15:06:46 imton has joined
1512 2013-11-08 15:07:13 <kjj> thermoman: does decoderawtransaction fail too?
1513 2013-11-08 15:07:57 <thermoman> kjj: yes, same error
1514 2013-11-08 15:08:13 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1515 2013-11-08 15:08:18 <thermoman> kjj: but getrawtransaction with verbose 1 gives me info
1516 2013-11-08 15:08:25 <Zarutian> HaltingState: okay then you wont have problem with program space
1517 2013-11-08 15:08:27 <kjj> where did it come from?
1518 2013-11-08 15:09:16 <thermoman> the tx came from an RPC call
1519 2013-11-08 15:09:32 <kjj> create/sign transaction?
1520 2013-11-08 15:09:33 <thermoman> while the nodes connect=<ip> parent was down
1521 2013-11-08 15:09:55 <thermoman> nope - the RPC connection was a simple sendfrom
1522 2013-11-08 15:10:00 <kjj> ahh
1523 2013-11-08 15:10:03 <thermoman> that gave back the tx
1524 2013-11-08 15:10:05 <Zarutian> HaltingState: but a battery holder for four 1.5 V AA or AAA batteries might be an idea if you want portable operation
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1526 2013-11-08 15:11:00 <kjj> thermoman: the owning wallet should try to resend from time to time, if you want to go that route
1527 2013-11-08 15:11:01 skinnkavaj has joined
1528 2013-11-08 15:11:17 <thermoman> kjj: what timeframe we're talking here?
1529 2013-11-08 15:11:41 <kjj> I'm not sure.  hasn't come up for me, so I never looked into the actual timers
1530 2013-11-08 15:12:16 ovidiusoft has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1531 2013-11-08 15:12:17 <kjj> if you post the transaction, I'll see if I can decode it and/or send it for you
1532 2013-11-08 15:12:24 reneg has joined
1533 2013-11-08 15:13:00 <Zarutian> HaltingState: are you going to implement datamatrix/qr-code generation for pushing out a signed transaction? (if you do please look into the btc uri schema)
1534 2013-11-08 15:13:26 <HaltingState> not sure
1535 2013-11-08 15:13:29 Bkil has joined
1536 2013-11-08 15:13:34 <HaltingState> i am writing this up for bitcoin talks right now
1537 2013-11-08 15:13:39 <HaltingState> and what i am doing and trying to do
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1540 2013-11-08 15:14:24 <ryan-c> I'm looking at the BIP 0016 page on P2SH. It mentions {OP_CHECKSIG OP_IF OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY OP_ELSE OP_CHECKMULTISIGVERIFY OP_ENDIF} - is it possible to do a transaction like that which would be considered standard?
1541 2013-11-08 15:14:34 duckybsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1542 2013-11-08 15:15:16 <Zarutian> HaltingState: but that would require a occsational utxo upload to the device so it can keep track for tx gen purposes
1543 2013-11-08 15:16:31 <HaltingState> ya
1544 2013-11-08 15:17:08 AndyOfiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1546 2013-11-08 15:22:43 <imton> sipa: does  "importaddress" reindex hangs/freezes bitcoind or is it able to handle multiple/frecuent importaddress at a given time?
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1553 2013-11-08 15:32:00 <thermoman> kjj: thanks for the help!
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1556 2013-11-08 15:33:59 <thermoman> sipa: all good
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1561 2013-11-08 15:39:55 <sipa> imton: by default it rescans
1562 2013-11-08 15:40:08 <sipa> imton: there's an optional bool parameter to disable it
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1567 2013-11-08 15:40:59 <imton> yeah, I want to know what that "rescan" means
1568 2013-11-08 15:41:08 <imton> in terms of performance/lock
1569 2013-11-08 15:42:11 <imton> sipa
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1571 2013-11-08 15:42:40 <sipa> imton: it locks up the entire bitcoind for as long as is needed
1572 2013-11-08 15:42:46 <sipa> imton: probably minutes
1573 2013-11-08 15:43:14 <imton> oh...
1574 2013-11-08 15:43:34 <sipa> if you regularly need it, you're doing something wrong
1575 2013-11-08 15:43:46 <imton> yeah i know.
1576 2013-11-08 15:43:55 <sipa> it's mostly for emergency backup
1577 2013-11-08 15:43:59 <sipa> recovery
1578 2013-11-08 15:44:18 <sipa> in normal cases, you import an address before using it
1579 2013-11-08 15:44:19 <imton> I may have to pre-generate address and add that pool
1580 2013-11-08 15:44:25 reneg has joined
1581 2013-11-08 15:44:25 <imton> but I don't want to pre-generate
1582 2013-11-08 15:44:34 <sipa> why not?
1583 2013-11-08 15:44:44 <thermoman> we experience hughe delay for tx to be known in the network
1584 2013-11-08 15:44:56 <imton> sipa: because that way I will be owning the priv keys
1585 2013-11-08 15:45:02 <thermoman> some are delayed for a long time, some are on the network instantly
1586 2013-11-08 15:45:30 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1587 2013-11-08 15:45:32 <imton> sipa: I plan to generate them locally in the user side (js) and before send them to our server, encrypt the priv key with they pass.
1588 2013-11-08 15:45:49 <sipa> imton: bip32 allows deriving addressesbwithout knowing the private key
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1592 2013-11-08 15:46:24 <imton> sipa: I wonder if each time a user generates a new key using "import address" would be an overload
1593 2013-11-08 15:46:27 <sipa> imton: but i consider client-side js wallets really just a false sense of security
1594 2013-11-08 15:46:39 <sipa> imton: if you don't reacan, no
1595 2013-11-08 15:46:57 <imton> sipa: if I don't rescan that means I can not look to past txs right?
1596 2013-11-08 15:47:03 <sipa> indeed
1597 2013-11-08 15:47:09 <imton> sipa: but that should be ok if the address is new
1598 2013-11-08 15:47:10 <sipa> so import an address before using it
1599 2013-11-08 15:47:53 <imton> sipa: why do you consider client-side js wallets a false sense of security?
1600 2013-11-08 15:48:37 <sipa> imton: if your server gets hacked, the coins can still be stolen
1601 2013-11-08 15:48:52 <sipa> by injecting malicious code in the site
1602 2013-11-08 15:49:07 <imton> well... that can happen everywhere
1603 2013-11-08 15:49:08 <sipa> or if you turn evil, youcan steal
1604 2013-11-08 15:49:16 <imton> if bitcoin binaries server are hacked too
1605 2013-11-08 15:49:20 <sipa> of course
1606 2013-11-08 15:49:28 <sipa> but i'd rather be honest about it
1607 2013-11-08 15:49:47 <sipa> client-side js wallets give a feeling of security
1608 2013-11-08 15:49:51 <imton> I plan to be as honest as possible yes
1609 2013-11-08 15:50:02 <sipa> but they don't provide much
1610 2013-11-08 15:50:03 <t7> maybe when browsers have a way to freeze js files
1611 2013-11-08 15:50:04 <imton> but I get what you mean
1612 2013-11-08 15:50:08 <t7> even then i am scared
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1614 2013-11-08 15:50:16 <sipa> i use web wallets too
1615 2013-11-08 15:50:41 <t7> if i had a lot of btc i would do the completely offline wallet thing
1616 2013-11-08 15:50:42 <sipa> but not when they try to claim they are secure
1617 2013-11-08 15:50:51 <sipa> through such measures
1618 2013-11-08 15:50:58 <TD> sipa only uses web wallets that claim to be riddled with bugs and gaping security holes
1619 2013-11-08 15:51:04 <sipa> no
1620 2013-11-08 15:51:04 <TD> that's how he knows they're honest and trustworthy
1621 2013-11-08 15:51:10 <lianj> :D
1622 2013-11-08 15:51:23 <imton> :p
1623 2013-11-08 15:51:33 <sipa> you get what i mean
1624 2013-11-08 15:51:39 <imton> i do
1625 2013-11-08 15:51:41 <lianj> i guess he mean if they only point to one layer of security and say because of that its secure
1626 2013-11-08 15:51:52 <Ry4an> I don't use web-wallets but if I did my firm requirement would be the person running it needs to have the domain registered with their real name.
1627 2013-11-08 15:51:56 TD is now known as TD[away]
1628 2013-11-08 15:52:16 <Ry4an> I'm a big fan of anonymity in a lot of contexts but not someone I'm asking to hold my money.
1629 2013-11-08 15:52:40 <t7> Ry4an: lol
1630 2013-11-08 15:52:44 <imton> Ry4an: sure
1631 2013-11-08 15:52:48 <sipa> lianj: indeed, if you put money on a webwallet, you *know* they can run away wuth it, and the only thing that prevents it is reputation, risk of prosecution, ...
1632 2013-11-08 15:53:16 <sipa> better be clear about that, no reason to make it seem more secure
1633 2013-11-08 15:54:29 _ingsoc has joined
1634 2013-11-08 15:54:55 <lianj> 2fa login is also one of those false sense for security in most cases
1635 2013-11-08 15:55:18 <sipa> 2fa is useful, but onlt as log as you trust the provider
1636 2013-11-08 15:55:47 <Ry4an> 2fa makes it harder for malware on _your_ computer to access the site and writhdraw your funds.  It definitely doesn't protect you against the site owner.
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1638 2013-11-08 15:56:17 <lianj> Ry4an: or the most common attack which is xss, that happily bypasses 2fa login
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1644 2013-11-08 16:03:17 <Ry4an> lianj: it does only if being logged in is sufficient condition for doing a transfer.  For example gox (and beleive me I'm not holding htem as a great example for most things :) let you require your 2fa code for each transfer, so a xss attack can't do a 2nd transfer to their account just because you've already used your 2fa to login.
1645 2013-11-08 16:03:19 elevatioN has joined
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1647 2013-11-08 16:08:20 <elevatioN> not sure if this is appropiate to post here, but i am an electronic engineer so looking for admins and mods for a forum for #bitcoin-price www.bitcoinprice.com
1648 2013-11-08 16:08:49 AndyOfiesh has joined
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1651 2013-11-08 16:10:06 <Ry4an> elevatioN: that needs to be in #bitcoin
1652 2013-11-08 16:16:14 bitspill has joined
1653 2013-11-08 16:17:51 <gulli> I received bitcoin on testnet from a faucet yesterday.
1654 2013-11-08 16:18:05 <gulli> trying to send some of it now but there are 0 confirmed blocks
1655 2013-11-08 16:18:13 <gulli> so I cant send
1656 2013-11-08 16:18:18 <gulli> anyone know why this would happen?
1657 2013-11-08 16:18:22 jakov has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1658 2013-11-08 16:18:37 <gulli> using armory, this is a hot wallet and I am trying to make an unsigned transaction
1659 2013-11-08 16:18:57 <gulli> When I try it it says I don't have any bitcoin
1660 2013-11-08 16:19:28 <gulli> so I checked if the bitcoin I got yesterday were confirmed, and as I said, they havent been confirmed
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1664 2013-11-08 16:24:12 <dexX7> where exactly appears a problem? when you try to sign the tx or when you send itß´
1665 2013-11-08 16:24:17 <HaltingState> Zarutian, sipa https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=327931.msg3521346
1666 2013-11-08 16:24:57 <gulli> When I try to create a new offline transaction
1667 2013-11-08 16:25:17 <gulli> But the problem is, the bitcoin I got yesterday have not been confirmed
1668 2013-11-08 16:27:28 <gulli> strange... I restarted it and now it has no recolection of the transaction yesterday
1669 2013-11-08 16:28:24 <gulli> yet this is the transaction
1670 2013-11-08 16:28:24 <gulli> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/address/muaDMbYUN9x9mz7UQ8uDndKZr87Dw5hucR
1671 2013-11-08 16:29:17 Squid_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1672 2013-11-08 16:29:58 <gulli> redeemed at input: Not yet redeemed
1673 2013-11-08 16:30:01 <gulli> uhm
1674 2013-11-08 16:30:32 <gulli> anyonw know what that might be about?
1675 2013-11-08 16:31:05 eoss has joined
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1677 2013-11-08 16:35:03 <dexX7> this means that muaDMbYUN9x9mz7UQ8uDndKZr87Dw5hucR hasn't spent the 1.21 testcoins yet
1678 2013-11-08 16:35:11 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1679 2013-11-08 16:37:07 <gulli> ok thanks
1680 2013-11-08 16:37:17 <gulli> strange though that armory tells me my balance is 0.0
1681 2013-11-08 16:37:26 <gulli> after I restarted it
1682 2013-11-08 16:37:28 JWU42 has quit (Quit: leaving)
1683 2013-11-08 16:37:44 <gulli> probably because the chain is not up to date or something
1684 2013-11-08 16:37:52 <gulli> yet it is 'connected'
1685 2013-11-08 16:37:52 JWU42 has joined
1686 2013-11-08 16:39:01 <gulli> lol ok
1687 2013-11-08 16:39:07 <dexX7> sorry, can't help. i never used armory and also not testcoins. :)
1688 2013-11-08 16:39:14 <gulli> so I turned armory off, turned bitcoind on
1689 2013-11-08 16:39:28 <gulli> bitcoind downloaded the last 15 hours of the chain
1690 2013-11-08 16:39:42 <gulli> turned it off and armory back online and there it was, now usable
1691 2013-11-08 16:39:47 <dexX7> ah
1692 2013-11-08 16:40:03 <gulli> armory uses bitcoind though, so I don't know why it isnt downloading the chain
1693 2013-11-08 16:40:17 jakov has joined
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1695 2013-11-08 16:41:37 <lianj> Ry4an: yea, thats why i said 2fa login
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1698 2013-11-08 16:42:53 <Ry4an> lianj: fair enough.  If there's a site that does 2fa login but not 2fa transfers then they're extra of my list :)
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1720 2013-11-08 17:05:15 <Jason> lianj: yo
1721 2013-11-08 17:05:18 <Jason> lianj: around?
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1726 2013-11-08 17:15:40 <ryan-c> Is there a way to do a nested P2SH I want to make transactions that can be redeemed either by a single address or by a multisig without having to include all the multisig public keys when a single sig is used.
1727 2013-11-08 17:17:16 <kjj> not currently, no
1728 2013-11-08 17:18:31 <ryan-c> even on testnet?
1729 2013-11-08 17:19:09 <kjj> you might be able to make it by hand on testnet.  I'm not sure
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1737 2013-11-08 17:30:50 <iceTwy> Hey there
1738 2013-11-08 17:31:01 <iceTwy> Got a question for compiling bitcoin on Debian Wheezy.
1739 2013-11-08 17:31:22 <iceTwy> Debian only provides packages for libdb5.1, yet bitcoin must use libdb4.8 to compile
1740 2013-11-08 17:31:34 <iceTwy> so, watdo
1741 2013-11-08 17:31:38 <jaakkos> iceTwy: have you checked unstable and experimental
1742 2013-11-08 17:32:36 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
1743 2013-11-08 17:33:07 <jaakkos> iceTwy: oh sorry - the problem is the other way around
1744 2013-11-08 17:33:40 AtashiCon has joined
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1746 2013-11-08 17:34:15 <iceTwy> jaakkos: yeah heh
1747 2013-11-08 17:35:10 Anduck has joined
1748 2013-11-08 17:35:46 <jaakkos> iceTwy: i checked archive.debian.net but no luck... the closest match is 4.6 in lenny
1749 2013-11-08 17:35:51 <wumpus> iceTwy: depends on what you want, if you don't care about compatibility with pre-compiled bitcoins you can use 5.1
1750 2013-11-08 17:36:15 reneg has quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out)
1751 2013-11-08 17:36:39 <wumpus> iceTwy: and it's always possible to convert back to 4.8 compatible wallet using a script
1752 2013-11-08 17:36:41 <helo> you should be able to downgrade your wallet from 5.1 if you need to run it in a standard libdb4.8 bitcoind
1753 2013-11-08 17:36:54 <iceTwy> well here's the thing
1754 2013-11-08 17:37:02 <iceTwy> I'm only installing Bitcoin to run coinpunk, in this case
1755 2013-11-08 17:37:06 <iceTwy> so yeah
1756 2013-11-08 17:37:12 <wumpus> just built it against bdb 5.1
1757 2013-11-08 17:37:33 <iceTwy> alrighty
1758 2013-11-08 17:38:03 <wumpus> coinpunk only uses watch only wallets anyway
1759 2013-11-08 17:38:19 <wumpus> which are not compatible with any of the prebuilt bitcoins
1760 2013-11-08 17:38:25 <iceTwy> oh, okay
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1767 2013-11-08 17:43:31 <BlueMatt> oh, how I love bitcoin...
1768 2013-11-08 17:43:37 <BlueMatt> definition of a chain-splitting bug: https://code.google.com/r/bluemattme-bitcoinj/source/detail?r=b9363999aea8aed3b9a9bee1578c95b643a14cc4
1769 2013-11-08 17:43:38 <BlueMatt> :(
1770 2013-11-08 17:43:58 <BlueMatt> 9 characters short and the whole thing dies
1771 2013-11-08 17:46:50 <thermoman> did you find out what causes the "empty vin" error that finally blocks 0.8.x clients?
1772 2013-11-08 17:47:01 <thermoman> because it still happens
1773 2013-11-08 17:47:01 <BlueMatt> I dont think that is known yet, no
1774 2013-11-08 17:47:10 <gmaxwell> [OT] http://www.openssh.com/txt/gcmrekey.adv
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1777 2013-11-08 17:48:12 <gmaxwell> [OT/tin hat] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5647
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1779 2013-11-08 17:48:46 <BlueMatt> oh god
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1781 2013-11-08 17:50:09 <imton> guys, question. Is there a way to archive the following. A service that allows a seller of BTCs to another untrusted person, the service should be able to verify (and decide dispute) but not own the btcs. I think this is solved by multi sign txs. *But*  what if the seller want to place that order in an order book for a future limit order, so at the time of placing the order he does not know which is the buyer so he doesnâ
1782 2013-11-08 17:50:10 <imton> buyers address. Can this be automated by the service without owing the btcs?
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1798 2013-11-08 18:04:03 <helo> (not really)
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1809 2013-11-08 18:13:04 <imton> helo: no? :(
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1822 2013-11-08 18:26:06 <adam3us> imton: yes you were asking about that earlier
1823 2013-11-08 18:26:26 <adam3us> imton: so the seller pays the bitcoins to a 2 of 2 address with 1 address controlled by the exchange
1824 2013-11-08 18:26:30 <imton> adam3us: I rephrased it just in case
1825 2013-11-08 18:26:51 <adam3us> imton: then the seller advertises his order
1826 2013-11-08 18:26:57 <adam3us> imton: the exchnge helps him find a buyer
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1829 2013-11-08 18:27:29 <bitnumus> hi, how do i stop bitcoind from downloading the chain? i'm just trying to compile and play around, i dont have the space for the chain
1830 2013-11-08 18:27:31 <adam3us> imton: user  makes a transaction from himself to the buyer
1831 2013-11-08 18:27:48 ahmedbodi has joined
1832 2013-11-08 18:28:16 <adam3us> imton: exchange checks whatever it wants (eg that funds are moved, reputation checks out etc) and signs the second sig, optionally from a green address to make settlement faster
1833 2013-11-08 18:28:35 <adam3us> imton: i think that is what bitalo is doing
1834 2013-11-08 18:29:39 <adam3us> imton: finally you can also timelock so that the seller gets full control of his coin back after eg 24hr, in case the exchange goes bankrupt or tries to extort the user
1835 2013-11-08 18:29:52 <imton> ok
1836 2013-11-08 18:29:54 <imton> adam3us: I am trying to understand it, I don't know what part I am missing...
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1838 2013-11-08 18:30:21 <adam3us> imton: so you understand the 2 of 2 address?
1839 2013-11-08 18:30:24 pooler_ has joined
1840 2013-11-08 18:30:37 <imton> adam3us: I think I do...
1841 2013-11-08 18:30:45 <imton> When the seller sends the btcs to a 2of2 addr , 1 addrs if from the exchange and the other?
1842 2013-11-08 18:30:52 <adam3us> imton: the seller pays from an address only he controls to a new address controlled by both him and the exchange
1843 2013-11-08 18:31:22 <adam3us> imton: yes to an address controlled by the seller and the exchange together
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1846 2013-11-08 18:32:02 <imton> when the exchange finds a buyer, how does the exchange proceeds?
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1851 2013-11-08 18:33:22 <adam3us> imton: the user gives the bitcoin to the buyer, but because of the 2 of 2 address that is now in control of the bitcoin, he needs the exchanges help to complete the transaction
1852 2013-11-08 18:34:13 <adam3us> imton: both the user and the exchange must approve the transaction, in that way the exchange can not steal user coins; thats the type2 exchange idea bitalo are using
1853 2013-11-08 18:35:43 <imton> when does the seller know of the buyer's address?
1854 2013-11-08 18:35:48 <imton> (seller of the btcs)
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1856 2013-11-08 18:36:04 <adam3us> imton: whenever the buyer accepts the offer
1857 2013-11-08 18:36:35 <imton> and then can the exchange automate that process or need to ask the seller for something, if so , what?
1858 2013-11-08 18:36:50 <adam3us> imton: the buyer's address would have to be communicated somehow eg direct between the buyer/seller, via p2p, or via the exchange
1859 2013-11-08 18:37:09 <adam3us> imton: the seller is passive, he's just receiving funds, you dont even need to be online to do that
1860 2013-11-08 18:37:42 Coincidental has joined
1861 2013-11-08 18:37:49 <imton> yeah, it's only relyed to the network at the end I think
1862 2013-11-08 18:37:51 <adam3us> imton: you can even pay funds over an airgap (ie the private key doesnt need to be online, only for the sender to knwo the recipients public key (or more accurately the recipients address))
1863 2013-11-08 18:38:30 <imton> yes. So I think I still missing a part of the 2of2 multi sign flow
1864 2013-11-08 18:38:48 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1865 2013-11-08 18:38:56 <adam3us> any fedora / redhat people or users on here - i am trying to verify sig on a fedora iso and the sig key has like almost no web of trust surprisingly
1866 2013-11-08 18:40:07 ielo has joined
1867 2013-11-08 18:40:17 <adam3us> one sig from a guy called petr pisar @ redhat, and one 768 bit (!!!) sig from androlito fernandez??? not at redhat not sure why they' distriute that key
1868 2013-11-08 18:40:29 <imton> adam3us: because I didn't find anything related to 2of2, there is a lot of information about 2of3
1869 2013-11-08 18:40:47 <adam3us> imton: its arbitrary you can do 1 of 2, 2 of 2, 2 of 3, 3 of 3
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1872 2013-11-08 18:41:12 <imton> adam3us: yes yes, but the use case differs totally
1873 2013-11-08 18:41:38 <adam3us> imton: it just like a bank mandate you are instructing any relying party that two signatures are both needed for this cheque
1874 2013-11-08 18:41:47 <helo> it's just a way to lock up the coins being sold until the buyer's address is known
1875 2013-11-08 18:42:18 <adam3us> helo: right, you are delegating shared authority to the exchange, so the buyer can be assured the seller cant backout
1876 2013-11-08 18:42:21 <helo> the seller could refuse to sign the transfer to the buyer to get his coin back, though
1877 2013-11-08 18:42:33 <helo> (assuming there is an automatic 24-hour refund)
1878 2013-11-08 18:42:51 <adam3us> helo: sure, but you can click cancel on limit orders on gox exchange etc
1879 2013-11-08 18:43:23 btcbtc has joined
1880 2013-11-08 18:43:44 <adam3us> helo, imton: we're presuming the seller wants to sell at the advertised price, and if he changes his mind (eg the price goes up) he can cancel and create a new sell order (or similar if its lower an so no one wll accept such a high sell now)
1881 2013-11-08 18:43:56 <ryan-c> I was asking earlier about setting up something that allows for either a signature from a master key or N-of-M from some other set of keys. It looked to me like there's not currently a good way to do it - though N-of-M or master can be done by N+N-of-M+N where the master key is used multiple times. But that gets big.
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1883 2013-11-08 18:44:23 <helo> you can't really tie the transfer of bitcoin to the transfer of a physical asset without an escrow (trusted exchange)
1884 2013-11-08 18:44:41 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: luke has a proposed script for that kind of usage.
1885 2013-11-08 18:44:57 <adam3us> ryan-c: i think you could do that also with a script sig (you can basically write a mini program to accept on whatever conditions you want)
1886 2013-11-08 18:45:00 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: I was looking through BIPs this morning, is there one?
1887 2013-11-08 18:45:08 <helo> with colored coin things get kind of interesting, but fiat-backed-colored-coin is a ways off :)
1888 2013-11-08 18:45:19 <adam3us> gmaxwell: cant you achieve that with a script directly
1889 2013-11-08 18:45:49 <ryan-c> adam3us: Well, so say I want either the master key or 5-of-5 to spend. I don't see any way to do that without including all the public keys to spend even if the master key is spending.
1890 2013-11-08 18:45:50 <gmaxwell> huh?
1891 2013-11-08 18:45:58 dmzpkts has joined
1892 2013-11-08 18:45:59 <gmaxwell> adam3us: I just said he had a proposed script for that usage! :)
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1894 2013-11-08 18:46:23 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Is there a BIP for that script? If not, can you provide a link or search terms?
1895 2013-11-08 18:46:31 <ryan-c> would love to have a look.
1896 2013-11-08 18:46:34 <adam3us> gmaxwell: ok... was unclear if you meant some new script sig type, or it seems you just mean, yes so if you want to do that write a script that says so
1897 2013-11-08 18:46:36 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: He hasn't posted it. I said his name, so he can comment.
1898 2013-11-08 18:46:45 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Ah.
1899 2013-11-08 18:47:03 <ryan-c> I couldn't think of any way to do what I want without a nested script hash scheme
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1901 2013-11-08 18:47:06 <gmaxwell> in any case it worked just by running checksigs and accumulating in a counter on the stack, so it avoided repeating pubkeys.
1902 2013-11-08 18:47:21 <adam3us> ryan-c: as far as i understand its as simple as using an OR in the script (boolean logic)
1903 2013-11-08 18:47:26 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Oh, I think I saw something like that.
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1905 2013-11-08 18:47:58 <gmaxwell> yea, for what you're saying you just need a if{}else{} and let the redeemer pick.
1906 2013-11-08 18:48:01 <ryan-c> adam3us: Yeah, you can do it in a plain transaction, but then you'd have to put all the public keys in the output.
1907 2013-11-08 18:48:03 <adam3us> gmaxwell: can you use multisig OR sig ithout doing that manually
1908 2013-11-08 18:48:21 <adam3us> gmaxwell: (ok)
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1910 2013-11-08 18:48:45 <gmaxwell> adam3us: well, what luke was trying to get was A+B OR  {{A or B} + {C,D,E}} without repeating A or B keys.
1911 2013-11-08 18:49:06 <imton> helo: could you explain me that case? "the seller could refuse to sign the transfer to the buyer to get his coin back"
1912 2013-11-08 18:50:57 <ryan-c> so, i want to make a P2SH address with something like this: OP_CHECKSIG OP_IF OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY OP_ELSE OP_HASH160[a script] OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_EVAL OP_ENDIF
1913 2013-11-08 18:51:08 <adam3us> imton: well neither the exchange nor the user can force the other to complete the transaction it requires active participation of them both, one form of "participation" is to refuse to sign i which case the tx wont happen
1914 2013-11-08 18:51:14 <ryan-c> I know OP_EVAL doesn't exist, but I can't think of another way to do this.
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1916 2013-11-08 18:51:40 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: why are you obessing about the recursions, its not needed at all!
1917 2013-11-08 18:52:05 <Apocalyptic> is there some pool operator willing to push f5322a5267f31dd1ff842f38f334bfeccd23352c0d34c25d9b1813f1458be063 ? I've been waiting for 10 hours now...
1918 2013-11-08 18:52:06 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: I'm trying to avoid having to include all the multisig pubkeys on a 'simple' redemption.
1919 2013-11-08 18:52:18 _ingsoc has joined
1920 2013-11-08 18:52:37 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: ah, if you want to keep it out completely there is no way to achieve that today.
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1922 2013-11-08 18:52:52 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Right, that's what I thought.
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1924 2013-11-08 18:53:30 <ryan-c> My concern is mostly not spamming the block chain with massive transactions in the normal case.
1925 2013-11-08 18:53:35 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: what you really want is AST hashtree scripts for that. If OP_CAT were enabled you could informally construct something equal to that, but it isn't.
1926 2013-11-08 18:53:49 <ryan-c> AST?
1927 2013-11-08 18:53:59 <imton> adam3us: ok, but what I see that this can't happen immediately automated by the exchange. In a limit order, the seller won't sign the txs (let's say he realizes about the matched buyer 5 hours later)
1928 2013-11-08 18:54:12 <Zarutian> ryan-c: abstract syntax tree
1929 2013-11-08 18:54:13 <gmaxwell> "Represent the script as a merklized abstract syntax tree. The P2SH address is the root. When spending the spender only may provide only the branch they are executing, and hashes for the unexecuted branches. This increases privacy and can compress long scripts on spend."
1930 2013-11-08 18:54:28 <ryan-c> ah
1931 2013-11-08 18:54:28 <imton> adam3us:... in the case he (the seller) is losing
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1933 2013-11-08 18:54:32 <ryan-c> that's pretty cool
1934 2013-11-08 18:54:36 <ryan-c> yes, that would do it
1935 2013-11-08 18:54:55 <ryan-c> I don't see why i'd need OP_CAT there, though.
1936 2013-11-08 18:54:58 <Evilmax> ryan-c :p
1937 2013-11-08 18:55:13 <adam3us> imton: this is an issue, the cost of this model is the seller needs to be online
1938 2013-11-08 18:55:26 <adam3us> imton: eg have a smart phone app which accepts notificatins
1939 2013-11-08 18:55:41 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: As touched on here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas
1940 2013-11-08 18:55:44 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: because you could construct a hashtree yourself in the script with OP_CAT.
1941 2013-11-08 18:55:44 <adam3us> imton: and if he doesnt respond in like some time period cancels the order
1942 2013-11-08 18:56:35 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #438: STILL FAILING in 41 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/438/
1943 2013-11-08 18:56:50 reneg has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1944 2013-11-08 18:57:05 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Hmm, I'm failing to grok how that would work without something like OP_EVAL. :(
1945 2013-11-08 18:57:23 <BlueMatt> :(
1946 2013-11-08 18:57:26 reneg has joined
1947 2013-11-08 18:57:48 <adam3us> helo: "colored coin things get kind of interesting, but fiat-backed-colored-coin is a ways off :)"  yes if we had a usdcoin, an exchange could potentially handle neither usd nor bitcoin in terms of hackability (was calling that a type3 exchange)
1948 2013-11-08 18:58:19 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: but your "ultimate p2sh" is *exactly* what I want.
1949 2013-11-08 18:59:10 <adam3us> man we really need a sybol syntax for bitcoin script .. i find it har to scan OP_FOOBAR 5 OP_MULTBLAH etc
1950 2013-11-08 18:59:15 Namworld has joined
1951 2013-11-08 18:59:35 <ryan-c> I also wanted to be able to do multisig to addresses I don't have the public keys for, but I think one of Luke-Jr's scripts can do that.
1952 2013-11-08 19:02:07 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: it wouldn't need op_eval, ... the pubkeys are on the stack, you let the signature provide them and then you'd op_cat up some hashtree to verify them.
1953 2013-11-08 19:02:08 <ryan-c> Another thing that would be cool: Having a script that constrains how the output can be spent.
1954 2013-11-08 19:02:14 <BlueMatt> ;;seen TD
1955 2013-11-08 19:02:14 <gribble> TD was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 hours, 11 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <TD> that's how he knows they're honest and trustworthy
1956 2013-11-08 19:03:01 <adam3us> ryan-c: i agree, been bumping into that lately
1957 2013-11-08 19:03:10 <gmaxwell> as an aside, the AST thing is sipa's and roconnor's idea initially I believe.
1958 2013-11-08 19:04:14 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: I think I'm following. I think there's still the caveat is that there need to be enough OP_CATs to combine all the supplied pubkeys?
1959 2013-11-08 19:04:39 <ryan-c> sorry, edited that and it came out mangled, but I think what i'm saying is still clear
1960 2013-11-08 19:04:58 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: yea, unless you have a LOT of pubkeys any kind of tree compression is likely to be not so helpful.
1961 2013-11-08 19:05:35 <imton> adam3us: great, that was exactly the point I wasn't able to avoid/solve.
1962 2013-11-08 19:05:44 <gmaxwell> e.g. n/log2(n) is not a very big number for small n ... and especially not when its n/(log2(n)+c) with non-zero c.
1963 2013-11-08 19:05:44 <ryan-c> adam3us: Yeah, I wanted to be able to, say, make a transaction that specifies that the spend must look like 25% to address A, 25% to address B, 50% to address C.
1964 2013-11-08 19:06:12 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: output requirements have fungibility risks if not done very cautiously.
1965 2013-11-08 19:06:28 <adam3us> imton: its an inconvenience, but it could work, and maybe peopl would prefer that than having bitcoins at risk - i presume bitalo must be doing the same
1966 2013-11-08 19:06:38 <imton> adam3us: but I can't think of any other better option without the seller being active/online, if not the exchange would need to own the btcs.
1967 2013-11-08 19:06:52 <adam3us> imton: yes
1968 2013-11-08 19:07:03 <imton> adam2us: i'll be checking bitalo
1969 2013-11-08 19:07:25 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Yeah. The use case I was thinking of is where you want to get a payment from someone that needs to be split up between a few parties. Would be nice if the sender didn't need to know/care how the split would be done.
1970 2013-11-08 19:07:33 <gmaxwell> (See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278122.0 CoinCovenants thread as a sort of extreme logical conclusion of output restrictions)
1971 2013-11-08 19:08:34 freewil has joined
1972 2013-11-08 19:08:35 <adam3us> ryan-c: well yes an example i want to setup an authority to pay a recurring payment  so i delegate to a server/bot the ability to pay from my funds but only to this given address
1973 2013-11-08 19:08:38 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Reading the coinwitness thing.
1974 2013-11-08 19:08:58 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1975 2013-11-08 19:09:33 <ryan-c> adam3us: Yeah, I want to do the same thing, essentially, except that the bot can divide the funds up to several addresses.
1976 2013-11-08 19:09:40 <ryan-c> same basic idea
1977 2013-11-08 19:10:14 <adam3us> ryan-c: right, and the alternative falls back to server/bot has your bitcoin cos you cant do that
1978 2013-11-08 19:10:30 <ryan-c> adam3us: indeed.
1979 2013-11-08 19:10:31 Belxjander has joined
1980 2013-11-08 19:11:14 <ryan-c> you might also want to have a payment that can be spent to either A or B but nothing else
1981 2013-11-08 19:11:42 <adam3us> ryan-c: well you can somewhat actually but only if you know the amounts up front, and/or you have enough money now floating around to pay the full years subscription, because each spend must spend the full and specific txin
1982 2013-11-08 19:11:57 <ryan-c> yeah
1983 2013-11-08 19:12:16 <ryan-c> oh, by signing transactions offline and sending them to the bot?
1984 2013-11-08 19:12:25 <ryan-c> which can then selectively broadcast them
1985 2013-11-08 19:13:58 <adam3us> ryan-c: well say you want to pay $10/mo for the next 12, you want a bot to do it for you, you want to be able to cancel without trusting the bot nor the service you're subscribing to, you put $120 on a coin and make 12 linked time-locked transactoins on the bot, qed
1986 2013-11-08 19:14:38 <ryan-c> are time locked transactions currently considered standard?
1987 2013-11-08 19:14:39 <adam3us> ryan-c: and you can presumably set that up so you can have another non-timelocked authority to just spend the money as a way of canceling the remainde
1988 2013-11-08 19:14:53 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: once the locktime has passed they're standard.
1989 2013-11-08 19:14:58 <ryan-c> ah
1990 2013-11-08 19:15:28 <adam3us> gmaxwell: i was thinking it might be ueful to have a p2p service that redundantly holds timelocked scripts and posts them after the date
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1992 2013-11-08 19:15:45 <ryan-c> aren't time locked scripts based on number of blocks and not clock time?
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1996 2013-11-08 19:16:15 <ryan-c> oh, you can specify either.
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1998 2013-11-08 19:16:31 <adam3us> gmaxwell: so that you can rely on something distributed, hard to censor, but not clog up mempools, nor full broadcast channel ahead of time
1999 2013-11-08 19:16:45 <Zarutian> ryan-c, adam3us: I would probably use Not-Before construction from Schneiers & <guy whose name I forgot> paper on "Enviromental Keygenerationg towards clueless software agents"
2000 2013-11-08 19:16:48 <adam3us> gmaxwell: (eg some commn timelocks will never be exercised)
2001 2013-11-08 19:17:28 <gmaxwell> adam3us: I think thats kinda boring, maybe useful I dunno. Presumably the interested party can perform that function for themselves.
2002 2013-11-08 19:18:01 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: That coin covenants thing reminds me of home owners association contracts
2003 2013-11-08 19:18:09 <gmaxwell> I believe have been only a few dozen timelocked transactions ever.
2004 2013-11-08 19:18:17 <Zarutian> (nested such with the tx and next construction in similar way of using timelocked txns)
2005 2013-11-08 19:18:34 OrP has joined
2006 2013-11-08 19:18:41 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: I point that out. "robotic hoa"  And yea, the word covenant is the legal term for how those contracts are applied to property.
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2008 2013-11-08 19:18:58 <gmaxwell> but real property is already not very fungible...
2009 2013-11-08 19:19:05 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: I think being able to specify output constraints would be useful, but I see your point about it bing a bad idea unless you limit what constraints are allowed.
2010 2013-11-08 19:19:25 <Happzz> any idea why won't bitcoind listen on 8333
2011 2013-11-08 19:19:43 <ryan-c> Happzz: something else binding the port already?
2012 2013-11-08 19:19:45 <Happzz> i got server=1 in bitcoin.conf
2013 2013-11-08 19:19:52 <Happzz> nope
2014 2013-11-08 19:19:58 <ryan-c> Happzz: server makes it listen on 8332
2015 2013-11-08 19:19:58 <Happzz> Connecting To 127.0.0.1...Could not open connection to the host, on port 8333: Connect failed
2016 2013-11-08 19:20:09 <ryan-c> Happzz: you probably want listen
2017 2013-11-08 19:20:31 <ryan-c> the server thing makes it act as an rpc server
2018 2013-11-08 19:20:34 groglogic has joined
2019 2013-11-08 19:20:49 <ryan-c> is that what you want, or do you just want other nodes to be able to connect?
2020 2013-11-08 19:21:28 AndyOfiesh has joined
2021 2013-11-08 19:21:29 <Happzz> i want it to be able to work with p2pool
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2024 2013-11-08 19:22:01 <ryan-c> Hah, "rick-roll bucks"
2025 2013-11-08 19:23:19 <Happzz> yeah it was listen=8333
2026 2013-11-08 19:23:20 <Happzz> thanjks
2027 2013-11-08 19:24:12 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: some of the covenants in that thread are hilarious
2028 2013-11-08 19:24:16 <adam3us> gmaxwell: "resumably the interested party can perform that function for themselves." well in many financial contracts (eg an option etc) there is a time limit, and if you miss the time-limit you lose the exercise right
2029 2013-11-08 19:24:24 <topi`> has anyone seen phantomcircuit lately? maybe he can tell what has happened to my bitcoins that were sitting in intersango...
2030 2013-11-08 19:24:40 <adam3us> gmaxwell: so someone needs to be hovering to exercise or do he cancellation of the right after the timelock expires etc
2031 2013-11-08 19:24:48 <ryan-c> topi`: he was on maybe 12-16 hours ago
2032 2013-11-08 19:24:54 <adam3us> gmaxwell: thats a bit onerous for end-users and yet they may not trust central entities
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2035 2013-11-08 19:26:33 <gmaxwell> adam3us: yes, sure, but ... thats their problem. There isn't coordination required, so anyone one of them or group of them could go solve it for themselves. Solving problems for users that don't exist yet that they could easily solve themselves is not so interesting.
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2039 2013-11-08 19:29:11 <adam3us> gmaxwell: well (yes) but it relates to the lack of < timelock, so the way to implement a limit on a right (eg to exercise) is to have a timelocked authority to sweep the funds, you have to  use that right in a timely fashion or the option holder gets a free extension; sure this can happen outside of bitcoin protocol
2040 2013-11-08 19:29:31 <adam3us> gmaxwell: but something that is at all central does not atomically self-execute so its a less smart contract IMO
2041 2013-11-08 19:30:03 <adam3us> gmaxwell: eg imagine the court order to suppress the collection of funds at option expiry
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2048 2013-11-08 19:35:15 <adam3us> ryan-c: back to output limits, eg it might be nice to limit the recipient addresses, (and with colored coins or swap of bitcoin for litecoin) even the matching receipt of at minimum the offer price to the sellers address
2049 2013-11-08 19:35:20 Grouver has joined
2050 2013-11-08 19:36:09 <ryan-c> Yeah. Viral output restrictions are probably bad though.
2051 2013-11-08 19:36:12 <adam3us> ryan-c: so eg the server is uthorized to give me the bitcoin back, or to sell them to anyone who pays the sellers address <offerprice>
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2054 2013-11-08 19:36:35 <adam3us> ryan-c: yes viral could be actually dangerous, i mean even systemically
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2056 2013-11-08 19:37:08 <Syphor_William> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nIi_dnpuQRI/Uc0PNspHLVI/AAAAAAAAABo/1X3PkdvMsCY/s259/cat.png
2057 2013-11-08 19:37:29 <Syphor_William> Wrong channel, sorry guys
2058 2013-11-08 19:37:38 <adam3us> ryan-c: that delegated authority would allow what imton was talking about (type2 exchange) without the seller being online and without risk of coin theft on the exchange
2059 2013-11-08 19:38:02 Squidicuz has joined
2060 2013-11-08 19:38:29 <imton> adam3us: wait... what... let me check what you are talking :)
2061 2013-11-08 19:39:23 <adam3us> imton: its not possible now, this is a possible future script 2nd order language feature
2062 2013-11-08 19:40:09 <adam3us> imton, ryan-c: though you would think all it would take is for the script to be able to refer to the input and output addresses and values in its validity definitions
2063 2013-11-08 19:40:21 <ryan-c> yeah
2064 2013-11-08 19:40:47 <ryan-c> though you would need to be careful to prevent it from making itself viral
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2068 2013-11-08 19:44:30 <HaltingState> sipa, your library now passes my unit tests for 30 seconds :)  no crashes so far
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2073 2013-11-08 19:50:59 <adam3us> ryan-c: its just to facilitate dependent contracts, people have to make a maze of hash and sig interlocked transactons right now to get such effects; i do think you want to prevent covenants tht coul affect ALL downstream transactions, that would be viral and likely dangerous as a route to impose restrictions
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2080 2013-11-08 19:58:14 <imton> adam3us: I am trying to understand this idea, but i don't :( what does viral means? and also, could the central authority send the btcs to a address they own? that would still leave the possibility of stealing if the server gets compromised....
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2083 2013-11-08 19:59:22 <groglogi_> imton: https://www.google.com/search?q="viral"
2084 2013-11-08 19:59:53 <pigeons> marketing-speak for popular
2085 2013-11-08 20:00:02 <pigeons> heh
2086 2013-11-08 20:00:09 <imton> oh, ok, thought what something special :p
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2104 2013-11-08 20:27:43 <adam3us> imton: no by viral we were talking about the potential bad side effects of a proposed new bitcoin feature of the ability to write scripts can place limits on the output.. its unlikely to happen in years at the current rate of change; though it could have some useful usecases
2105 2013-11-08 20:28:32 <adam3us> imton: viral would be that if not prevented be possible to restrict all subsequent recipients of a coin, that would be bad as it could propagate through the bitcoin network and reduce functionaity
2106 2013-11-08 20:28:47 <adam3us> imton: or fungibility as gmaxwell said
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2111 2013-11-08 20:32:37 <imton> adam3us: oh, thanks
2112 2013-11-08 20:33:03 <imton> adam3us: what about the other question I asked... is it posible? " could the central authority send the btcs to a address they own? that would still leave the possibility of stealing if the server gets compromised...."
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2114 2013-11-08 20:34:11 <adam3us> imton: no they cant do that because the bitcoin is owned by the user and needs a signature from the user and a signature from the exchange
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2118 2013-11-08 20:35:14 <adam3us> imton: so the exchange can not spend the bitcoin by itself, only transfer it to someone with the users approval (the user must some check he received money and its a real buy offer)
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2121 2013-11-08 20:35:47 <adam3us> imton: anyway the main point is the exchange doesnt hold a big load of bitcoins in its hot & cold wallets so its less vulnerable to hacking
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2123 2013-11-08 20:36:46 <imton> adam3us: yes, that's what I want to archive. Still, I didn't understand how it did work.
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2125 2013-11-08 20:37:00 <imton> adam3us: how could this be archived?
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2128 2013-11-08 20:37:44 <adam3us> imton: well so like i said first step the seller transfers control of his bitcoin to the exchange and the seller combined (both must sign to make transactions after this step)
2129 2013-11-08 20:38:00 <adam3us> imton: second the exchange and user work together to accept a buy offer
2130 2013-11-08 20:38:30 <imton> got it so far
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2134 2013-11-08 20:39:51 <adam3us> imton: so the exchange helps the user find a buyer, the buyer sends the user his address, the user signs the trnsactin to send the btcoin from the seller to the buyer, then the exchange has to cosign also
2135 2013-11-08 20:40:52 <adam3us> imton: so the user has tobe somewhat online for this to work or to receive push notification on a smart hone and to sign the transaction
2136 2013-11-08 20:42:56 <imton> great. and what about this "that delegated authority would allow what imton was talking about (type2 exchange) without the seller being online and without risk of coin theft on the exchange"
2137 2013-11-08 20:42:59 <imton> how would that work
2138 2013-11-08 20:43:40 <adam3us> imton: as far as i can see it cant work with current bitcoin script, we were talking about what changes would be necessary to the bitcoin script language to make that possible
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2141 2013-11-08 20:45:41 <imton> adam3us: may you tell me what was that idea like? I tried to understand it but I couldn't :s
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2143 2013-11-08 20:48:02 <adam3us> so the idea was if you could write into a bitcoin script that you authorized the exchange to pay anyone at all, but only if they paid your address the offer price
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2145 2013-11-08 20:48:46 <adam3us> imton: however there are two gaps: you need both funds to be cryptocoins, and you need the script to allow you to reference the output addresses
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2147 2013-11-08 20:49:17 <adam3us> imton: you can somewhat do things with eg litecoin <->bitcoin trading but they are not on the same blockchain
2148 2013-11-08 20:49:33 <adam3us> imton: people are working on colorcoins though
2149 2013-11-08 20:50:41 <adam3us> imton: (then its safe to let the exchange do the transaction, or even any user without the exchange... the only way to receive your offer is to pay you the asking price)
2150 2013-11-08 20:51:28 Pucilowski has joined
2151 2013-11-08 20:52:44 <imton> oh I get it now.. i was missing the "boths funds to be cryptocoins"
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2155 2013-11-08 20:53:10 <imton> I still need to remember about colorcoins, haven't read about it for some months
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2157 2013-11-08 20:56:00 <imton> adam3us: gotta go, have been awake trying to understand all this , time to sleep now. It gets more fascinating every time
2158 2013-11-08 20:56:12 <imton> adam3us: thanks for your patience and cooperation :)
2159 2013-11-08 20:56:27 <adam3us> imton: yep once bitcoin bug bites there's no letting go :)
2160 2013-11-08 20:57:30 <imton> adam3us: definitely!
2161 2013-11-08 20:58:02 cysm has joined
2162 2013-11-08 20:58:28 <imton> adam3us: thank you again, see you all soon
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2200 2013-11-08 21:19:32 <justaskingplz> who is socrates on here?
2201 2013-11-08 21:19:43 <justaskingplz> socrates1024
2202 2013-11-08 21:19:48 <justaskingplz> amiller i see
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2215 2013-11-08 21:28:14 <slush> hi, is there any problem with relaying transactions on the network?
2216 2013-11-08 21:28:41 <Luke-Jr> depends on what you consider a problem I guess
2217 2013-11-08 21:28:51 <slush> my transactions has 0 confirmations even with tx fee
2218 2013-11-08 21:28:51 <Luke-Jr> there's rate limiting..
2219 2013-11-08 21:28:58 <Luke-Jr> hmm, that does sound odd
2220 2013-11-08 21:29:06 <slush> and I don't see such transactions on BC.i, so I don't think they got propagated widely
2221 2013-11-08 21:29:09 <Luke-Jr> tx fee is large enough bitcoind type nodes care?
2222 2013-11-08 21:29:15 <Luke-Jr> BC.i is broken I think
2223 2013-11-08 21:29:55 <slush> 0.0001 BTC/kb is default, isn't it?
2224 2013-11-08 21:29:56 <phantomcircuit> slush, there isn't a general problem
2225 2013-11-08 21:30:09 <Luke-Jr> not sure
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2227 2013-11-08 21:30:55 <slush> can anyone check if tx 39d087fc79ee91a9a055dbda8661e37aba186c66e39c62591ddaa3ee33104e67 is in their memory pool, please?
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2231 2013-11-08 21:31:44 <slush> I'm having payout issues since yesterday. It worked for a year without any changes and since yesterday I see many unconfirmed transactions
2232 2013-11-08 21:33:51 <sipa> slush: i have that in my mempool
2233 2013-11-08 21:34:56 <slush> sipa: great. then I don't understand why it isnt confirmed yet
2234 2013-11-08 21:35:16 <slush> there have been at least 3 blocks since broadcast
2235 2013-11-08 21:36:17 <gmaxwell> I have it on a node. it's not in my or eligius' GBT... but load has been high lately.
2236 2013-11-08 21:36:24 <gmaxwell> slush: are you attempting to mine it yourself?
2237 2013-11-08 21:37:41 <slush> gmaxwell: good point. I don't know because I don't have key to servers here :)
2238 2013-11-08 21:37:44 <midnightmagic> slush: I have it in my node
2239 2013-11-08 21:37:55 <wizkid057> eligius has it
2240 2013-11-08 21:37:56 <midnightmagic> ..  nodeS
2241 2013-11-08 21:37:59 <gmaxwell> slush: do you expose getblocktemplate to miners?
2242 2013-11-08 21:38:03 <gmaxwell> it's easy to test if you do.
2243 2013-11-08 21:38:12 <slush> great. let's sit and wait. Maybe it is really just because of higher traffic on the network
2244 2013-11-08 21:38:20 <sipa> it's also not in my GBT output
2245 2013-11-08 21:38:25 <slush> gmaxwell: no, just stratum
2246 2013-11-08 21:38:36 <wizkid057> I've noticed a huge increase in "can you mine my zero fee transaction?" requests the past 24 hours
2247 2013-11-08 21:38:40 <midnightmagic> slush: I have day-old txn (one even with a child that has a fairly high 0.01 fee) that still aren't confirmed yet. fwiw
2248 2013-11-08 21:38:44 <gmaxwell> e.g. ./bitcoind -rpcconnect=gbt.mining.eligius.st -rpcport=9337 -rpcuser=x -rpcpassword=x getblocktemplate '{"capabilities": ["coinbasetxn"]}' | grep `./bitcoind getrawtransaction 39d087fc79ee91a9a055dbda8661e37aba186c66e39c62591ddaa3ee33104e67`
2249 2013-11-08 21:38:59 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: network load has been high, people presumably moving coin to sell them, new users making transactions, etc.
2250 2013-11-08 21:39:10 <gmaxwell> which also happened around other all-time-high periods.
2251 2013-11-08 21:39:14 <Luke-Jr> slush: Eligius has that txid, but does not think it's worth mining.
2252 2013-11-08 21:39:27 <slush> Luke-Jr: low fee?
2253 2013-11-08 21:39:33 <Luke-Jr> slush: not sure why
2254 2013-11-08 21:39:35 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: yeah, Eligius blocks have been quite large
2255 2013-11-08 21:39:47 <Luke-Jr> slush: but I'd agree with it's decision if you're not using sendmany for payouts -.-
2256 2013-11-08 21:40:30 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: Is there a way to check and see whether eligius thinks a tx is worth mining?
2257 2013-11-08 21:40:36 <wizkid057> Luke-Jr: probably just more 0-fee txns in our blocks than normal
2258 2013-11-08 21:40:49 <midnightmagic> or is that what gmaxwell just pointed out
2259 2013-11-08 21:40:50 <pigeons> there has also been a several days issue with mtgox now clearing up they weren't sending btc out, sending outputs that hadn't yet confirmed, etc
2260 2013-11-08 21:40:53 <wizkid057> midnightmagic: go the gbt request gmaxwell posted to see if we are mining it
2261 2013-11-08 21:40:57 <slush> Luke-Jr: I'm using sendmany
2262 2013-11-08 21:41:01 <midnightmagic> wizkid057: ah cool
2263 2013-11-08 21:41:07 <gmaxwell> this isn't zero-fee
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2265 2013-11-08 21:41:08 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: GBT req
2266 2013-11-08 21:41:14 <wizkid057> oh
2267 2013-11-08 21:41:23 <Luke-Jr> wizkid057: he said it had a fee
2268 2013-11-08 21:41:39 <slush> Luke-Jr: can you please check also 497f7518d2a189b2dffe10039862c67d8d4ea892d97cc6a3193522b6179e6feb ?
2269 2013-11-08 21:41:47 <wizkid057> 2013-11-08 21:01:33 CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted 39d087fc79ee91a9a055dbda8661e37aba186c66e39c62591ddaa3ee33104e67 (poolsz 3410)
2270 2013-11-08 21:41:48 <slush> It is much bigger transaction and it also didn't go thru
2271 2013-11-08 21:41:56 <Luke-Jr> slush: same thing
2272 2013-11-08 21:42:19 <slush> Luke-Jr: accepted, but not worth of mining?
2273 2013-11-08 21:42:21 <Luke-Jr> yep
2274 2013-11-08 21:42:41 <gmaxwell> interesting, bc.i rejects slush's transaction reporting that it can't find the inputs.
2275 2013-11-08 21:42:46 <slush> strange. so what txfee do you see in gbt set?
2276 2013-11-08 21:42:58 <Luke-Jr> not worth mining = not in GBT
2277 2013-11-08 21:43:07 <Luke-Jr> oh, other txns
2278 2013-11-08 21:43:30 <slush> gmaxwell: this sounds interesting. Where did you find that on bc.i?
2279 2013-11-08 21:43:41 iceTwy has left ("Leaving channel")
2280 2013-11-08 21:43:44 <slush> gmaxwell: it shows me just "Transaction not found"
2281 2013-11-08 21:43:46 <Luke-Jr> http://0bin.net/paste/90U0UPgU9iHRAiaB#kRELiuZkLq6F61+JIreT879OvLDGmITyRGBcLLxtFGY=
2282 2013-11-08 21:43:49 <gmaxwell> slush: tried to submit it via https://blockchain.info/pushtx
2283 2013-11-08 21:44:11 <slush> gmaxwell: well, I'm sending that from standard bitcoind 0.8.5
2284 2013-11-08 21:44:22 <slush> Any chance that the wallet.dat got corrupted somehow?
2285 2013-11-08 21:44:34 <gmaxwell> slush: nah, my node has it in the memory pool so its valid.
2286 2013-11-08 21:44:40 <Luke-Jr> more likely you have prior transactions unconfirmed
2287 2013-11-08 21:44:43 <Luke-Jr> and not many coins
2288 2013-11-08 21:44:46 <slush> hopefully its just a problem of bci
2289 2013-11-08 21:44:51 <midnightmagic> doh. I'm not in your gbt either Luke-Jr
2290 2013-11-08 21:44:54 <Luke-Jr> also, as mentioned, bc.i has been having issues
2291 2013-11-08 21:45:04 <gmaxwell> or one of the inputs is unconfirmed and has a mutant circulating in the network.
2292 2013-11-08 21:45:05 <wizkid057> bc.i has been missing transactions
2293 2013-11-08 21:45:05 <midnightmagic> nooooo ha ha
2294 2013-11-08 21:45:21 <wizkid057> have had a lot of complaints from mywallet users, "Eligius says it paid me but I dont see it!"
2295 2013-11-08 21:45:35 <gmaxwell> incidentally, the fact that you can't get a txid only gbt is a bit annoying for this application…
2296 2013-11-08 21:45:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: grep txid
2297 2013-11-08 21:46:22 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, sipa did you see my post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=327931
2298 2013-11-08 21:46:24 <wizkid057> Luke-Jr: I dont think eloipool gbt returns them
2299 2013-11-08 21:46:30 <Luke-Jr> oh
2300 2013-11-08 21:46:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea...
2301 2013-11-08 21:46:51 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: so, hash them all ;)
2302 2013-11-08 21:47:11 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: yea... well, getting out of what I can do just at the commandline. :P
2303 2013-11-08 21:47:12 <wizkid057> i'm sure you could convince awk to do it somehow
2304 2013-11-08 21:47:14 <wizkid057> lol
2305 2013-11-08 21:47:26 <gmaxwell> I could actually use bitcoind decoderawtransaction.
2306 2013-11-08 21:47:41 <wizkid057> yep
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2308 2013-11-08 21:48:07 <midnightmagic> calculating the fees-per-byte is harder for those to find out what my child-tx should be spending in fees..
2309 2013-11-08 21:48:26 <gmaxwell> ./bitcoind -rpcconnect=gbt.mining.eligius.st -rpcport=9337 -rpcuser=x -rpcpassword=x getblocktemplate '{"capabilities": ["coinbasetxn"]}' | grep data | cut -d'"' -f4 | xargs -n1 -iblah ./bitcoind decoderawtransaction blah | egrep '^    "txid'
2310 2013-11-08 21:48:36 <wizkid057> lets see what made it into Eligius's latest block
2311 2013-11-08 21:48:38 <gmaxwell> there, that gives you txids from eligius.
2312 2013-11-08 21:50:10 <wizkid057> i always have to do it twice for some reason
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2315 2013-11-08 21:50:43 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: hey man, you're mining a 0.004 fee tx in priority over my child-fee of 0.01
2316 2013-11-08 21:51:06 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: do we have yours? :P
2317 2013-11-08 21:51:23 <wizkid057> i wonder if eloipool could be reordering them
2318 2013-11-08 21:51:34 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: it's not in gbt  c45eec28d4505af19ae76bd94532ce7e82f4f8d4d4cb8110254654d8cdebfced
2319 2013-11-08 21:52:11 <midnightmagic> child of: cb7dd78c8ca02a701d5203aaec3b4ab2fd8cbaa4f08c097a07cc4be8d6af2a36
2320 2013-11-08 21:52:19 <midnightmagic> (which is feeless)
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2322 2013-11-08 21:52:52 <Luke-Jr> wizkid057: Eloipool can't reorder
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2325 2013-11-08 21:53:05 <Luke-Jr> error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
2326 2013-11-08 21:53:05 <wizkid057> hm, ok
2327 2013-11-08 21:53:15 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: for both
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2329 2013-11-08 21:53:26 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: push them to eligius
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2332 2013-11-08 21:53:51 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: what's the trick for that again?
2333 2013-11-08 21:54:09 <Luke-Jr> http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php
2334 2013-11-08 21:54:28 <wizkid057> wonder if I should just post that somewhere
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2337 2013-11-08 21:55:02 <Luke-Jr> wizkid057: noooooo
2338 2013-11-08 21:55:10 <Luke-Jr> we'll start getting spam with "problems" using it
2339 2013-11-08 21:55:25 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: tx rejected..
2340 2013-11-08 21:55:36 <midnightmagic> hrm. that's interesting.
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2370 2013-11-08 22:15:52 <abrkn> hiya. my bitcoin edge is talking to bitcoind on rpc, we just use sendtoaddress. today a tx was dealayed 8 hours to recipient, i assume because fee was too low. what are we supposed to do, upgrade?
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2374 2013-11-08 22:20:25 <sipa> abrkn: wait
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2397 2013-11-08 22:46:00 <abrkn> sipa: im waiting...
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2399 2013-11-08 22:53:01 <groglogi_> abrkn: increase the fee you're offering?
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2401 2013-11-08 22:57:02 <firepacket> you would have to make another transaction with the same input and a higher fee using the raw api
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2404 2013-11-08 23:03:13 <Luke-Jr> or send your wallet's entire balance to yourself (or anyone else) with a large enough fee to cover both transactions (assuming you had change from the first)
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2418 2013-11-08 23:23:03 <Delerium> when im using getrawtransaction in the bitcoin-qt client, its giving me a 'no information available code -5' response but looking on BCI, it has 62479 confirmations so the tx does exist... is there any reason why Bitcoin-Qt would forget this transaction and not show me the details?
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2422 2013-11-08 23:29:18 <sipa> Delerium: yes, you need a transaction index for it to be able to find historical treansactions
2423 2013-11-08 23:29:37 <sipa> normally, it only works on mempool & unspent ones
2424 2013-11-08 23:29:50 <sipa> you can enable it by starting with -txindex
2425 2013-11-08 23:29:59 <sipa> but you'll need to reindex
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2427 2013-11-08 23:32:53 <Delerium> ok thanks - presumably this takes a long time to do?
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2442 2013-11-08 23:40:04 <Delerium> yep looks like it - thanks for the heads up sipa
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2450 2013-11-08 23:51:04 <sipa> Delerium: hours, probably
2451 2013-11-08 23:51:22 <sipa> increasing the database cache size helps a lot though
2452 2013-11-08 23:51:29 <sipa> if you have some ram
2453 2013-11-08 23:51:43 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2454 2013-11-08 23:51:51 <sipa> -dbcache=N with N in megabytes
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2456 2013-11-08 23:56:18 <Delerium> only 47 weeks left to do so not all that bad
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2458 2013-11-08 23:57:03 <BCB> can I read the coinbase with and RPC call
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