1 2013-11-10 00:00:15 <MC1984> mining is already fucked, its the least we could do
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   3 2013-11-10 00:01:22 <groglogic> passive in the sense of... let's sit back and watch total Bitcion market particpation increase naturally. as it does, it will grow naturally more resiliant "for free" without doing hard thinking, hard coding, risky protocol/algo changes, etc. I think Gavin has said repeatedly he'd like to see more variety/reundancy in the channels that broadcasts/txns pass through. ie, the spirit of the DARPA Internet originally,
   4 2013-11-10 00:01:22 <groglogic>  the more paths/routes, greater resilience
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   6 2013-11-10 00:01:48 <jouke> What would be the minimum kind of hardware one needs to run a full node? Wouldn't it be nice to develop a real small and cheap device that one could just plugin in and be a bitcoin-node?
   7 2013-11-10 00:02:26 <MC1984> yes. That will only happen if bitcoin generally decreases in resource usage and difficulty to run over time
   8 2013-11-10 00:02:30 <phantomcircuit> jouke, that depends entirely on how long you want the initial block sync to take
   9 2013-11-10 00:03:02 <MC1984> that means not dicking with the blocks for a good long while and hoping the world doesnt end up full of fucking ipads
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  11 2013-11-10 00:03:11 <groglogic> to give just one example, let's say that all the most critical nodes/participants/service were located in the physical US. and one day, the US gov "goes bad" (or rogue super operator inside the NSA, etc.), and blocks/impedes those core services. taht would suck. so better to have key stuff redundant and stuff outside US gov reach, in that scen
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  16 2013-11-10 00:03:48 <MC1984> jouke actually being a node take hardly shit all reosurces, after the sync is done
  17 2013-11-10 00:03:54 <MC1984> until then, its painful
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  21 2013-11-10 00:04:42 <MC1984> groglogic outside us govt reach means outside the angloshpere at the least, and usually a bit more than that
  22 2013-11-10 00:05:01 <groglogic> well in ideal world, everybody has a "smart" device on their person, that can at least act as a Bitcoin client, not necessarily do full mining (no point) but be able to spend/receive/manage Bitoins, just as long as they have (even if only intermittent) IP/USB conn to the greater Internet
  23 2013-11-10 00:05:59 <MC1984> thats not a node
  24 2013-11-10 00:06:00 <jouke> phantomcircuit: good point. One could ship them with a "trusted" blockchain.
  25 2013-11-10 00:06:27 <MC1984> er how about no?
  26 2013-11-10 00:07:04 <groglogic> MC1984: I can see it now... Bitcoin Foundation as a future customer of SpaceX, delivering a satellite to orbit, or "thing" onto Moon or Mars, that provides some critical Bitcion service or backup. yes, latency would suck. but it would increase redundancy/backup. (of course, US gov could reach even out there if they wanted). just a thought experiment
  27 2013-11-10 00:07:08 <RoboTeddy> variety/redundancy in the channels that broadcasts and txns pass through sound like a good idea. any thoughts on what additional channels could be used?
  28 2013-11-10 00:07:42 <MC1984> er the foundation is more likely to concede any us govt demands than launch a moon base to get away from them
  29 2013-11-10 00:09:31 <groglogic> RoboTeddy: ad hoc WiFi mesh, so not part of permanent "landline" IP Internet. occasionally connected, mobile, encrypted, etc.... fiber pathways that will immed detect if a splitter is added. point-to-point visual links.... steganophrically-encrypted "porn" images posted with links in IRC/4Chan. all kinds of weird pathways are possible. the more the better
  30 2013-11-10 00:11:15 <groglogic> RoboTeddy: putting a lot of Bitcoin bcasts serialized into physical form, put in cargo cantainer, air/water travel, delivered, opened, read/scanned, back into the normal IP network Bitcoin (yes, latency, yes cost, yes efficiency, haha)
  31 2013-11-10 00:11:21 eristisk has joined
  32 2013-11-10 00:12:33 <RoboTeddy> groglogic: cool ideas. which do you think are easiest to implement first?
  33 2013-11-10 00:12:36 <groglogic> MC1984: agreed. just a thought experiment. but I bet something like that, by somebody with banking interests, could eventually put together enough money, esp as transport options grow and get cheaper
  34 2013-11-10 00:13:31 <groglogic> RoboTeddy: good line of thought. i'm not sure offhand. have to think more. i'm currently focused on a different area with respect to Bitcoin
  35 2013-11-10 00:13:34 <MC1984> bitcoin could fairly well work out to the moon in fact, as our closest celestial body
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  37 2013-11-10 00:14:55 <RoboTeddy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_Moon_Relay
  38 2013-11-10 00:15:15  is now known as 8w8w8|!~ted@gateway/tor-sasl/ovovo|owowo
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  42 2013-11-10 00:18:45 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: I wonder if a more adaptive block time will be necessary if we ever go beyond the moon, or if we'd just create a universal-scope altcoin
  43 2013-11-10 00:20:01 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, if he's selling people hardware then they're already trusting him to a pretty high degree anyways
  44 2013-11-10 00:20:34 <RoboTeddy> the idea of connecting nodes together in a way that isn't public sounds good -- to successfully DDoS such a network, you'd need to do a ton of recon first
  45 2013-11-10 00:20:46 <MC1984> if by beyond the moon you mean the moons of jupiter or something, by then it will be all fee so i couild maybe see consensus on increasing the block time to several hours seeing as mining will probably just be done by governments
  46 2013-11-10 00:21:42 <MC1984> but then that would imply a fairly large colony out there to generate the economic activity  to justify it
  47 2013-11-10 00:21:50 <MC1984> hundreds of years
  48 2013-11-10 00:22:44 <MC1984> phantomcircuit any of the asics sold would be noticed pretty quick if they were skimming hashes off the top for a third party or something
  49 2013-11-10 00:23:01 <MC1984> its verifiable, just liket he chain should be
  50 2013-11-10 00:23:20 <MC1984> ship with a huge bootstrap file by all means
  51 2013-11-10 00:23:32 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, i meant the guy talking about a trusted blockchain delivered along with the device
  52 2013-11-10 00:24:04 <MC1984> yeah
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  58 2013-11-10 00:26:26 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: not the same level of trust imo
  59 2013-11-10 00:26:38 <Luke-Jr> trusting a UTXO set is an ongoing trust
  60 2013-11-10 00:26:58 <Luke-Jr> trusting delivery of hardware is usually just trust-until-you-get-it
  61 2013-11-10 00:27:05 <Luke-Jr> although I suppose ASICs could be time-bombed :/
  62 2013-11-10 00:27:27 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i more meant that the hardware could be backdoored
  63 2013-11-10 00:27:40 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: not really, it has no communication means
  64 2013-11-10 00:27:50 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, not for an asic
  65 2013-11-10 00:27:59 <phantomcircuit> <jouke> What would be the minimum kind of hardware one needs to run a full node? Wouldn't it be nice to develop a real small and cheap device that one could just plugin in and be a bitcoin-node?
  66 2013-11-10 00:28:01 <phantomcircuit> for that
  67 2013-11-10 00:28:07 <Luke-Jr> oh
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  72 2013-11-10 00:33:23 <MC1984> maybe if the freedombox thing was ever more than a pipe dream
  73 2013-11-10 00:33:53 <MC1984> in my utopian socialist paradise every home would have a server running all these emancipatory p2p projects
  74 2013-11-10 00:34:07 <MC1984> because there are many things far too important for anyone to ahve control over
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  76 2013-11-10 00:35:21 <MC1984> instead were running face first into a wall of techno-fuedalism, as schinier puts it
  77 2013-11-10 00:35:21 eoss has joined
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  79 2013-11-10 00:35:41 <sipa> schneier?
  80 2013-11-10 00:35:45 <sipa> feudalism?
  81 2013-11-10 00:35:55 <MC1984> bruce schiner
  82 2013-11-10 00:35:59 <MC1984> or whatever
  83 2013-11-10 00:36:06 <sipa> bruce schneier :)
  84 2013-11-10 00:36:09 WTFffff has joined
  85 2013-11-10 00:36:13 <MC1984> yea
  86 2013-11-10 00:36:23 e0s__ has joined
  87 2013-11-10 00:36:23 <MC1984> his blog is dark as hell these days....
  88 2013-11-10 00:40:33 <groglogic> Luke-Jr: the advantage of sw miners over hw is we can see & audit the source; whereas with hw miners the advantage is more throughput per dollar, but, the "source" is opaque; are people thinking about those risks already, to hw/asic miners? ie, what if backdoors are being baked into those chips/boards?
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  90 2013-11-10 00:42:53 <RoboTeddy> groglogic: aren't blocks validated in software? if an asic were backdoored, wouldn't it just produce blocks that no one would accept?
  91 2013-11-10 00:42:56 <K1773R> groglogic: backdoor? WTF?
  92 2013-11-10 00:43:14 <K1773R> RoboTeddy: right...
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  99 2013-11-10 00:54:39 <sipa> groglogic: mining hardware can be made in a way so it does not know what it is mining on
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 101 2013-11-10 00:55:45 guymann has joined
 102 2013-11-10 00:55:50 <guymann> hi all
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 104 2013-11-10 00:59:21 <MC1984> sipa if thats true thats the first thing to be regulated away
 105 2013-11-10 00:59:22 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 106 2013-11-10 00:59:37 <groglogic> RoboTeddy: well no. i think the model people were considering is if an ASIC hardware miner is produced that normally does it job. it mines honestly and legitimately by default, 99.9%%% of the time. but then the attack executes his backdoor, and, say, either causes them all to stop mining, which causes a big drop in the network's ability to verify transactions and thus produce new blocks with the recent txns baked
 107 2013-11-10 00:59:37 <groglogic>  in, or, could try to fork with double-spends in it. you'd still need those compromised miners to have a very large % of the total mining job. so this "does ASIC backdoor make a diff" threat, I think, collapses back to the orig well-known vuln of needing am honest majority. but at least with sw miners we can audit the source, with hw miners we can't.
 108 2013-11-10 01:00:05 ds is now known as away!ds@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-kqsgikodvlabxlrd|dongshengcn
 109 2013-11-10 01:00:33 <groglogic> sipa: good point. i see. so in theory you could trust them more, because the hw thinks it's just been givin some generic computation to do (SHA256 or whatever) and since it doesn't know it's doing Bitcoin mining...
 110 2013-11-10 01:00:37 deepc0re has quit (Quit: deepc0re)
 111 2013-11-10 01:01:32 <RoboTeddy> groglogic: ah, I misunderstood the possible threat, thanks
 112 2013-11-10 01:03:04 <groglogic> a lot of the time, maybe always all the time i think about attack vectors, they risk tends to collapse back to either the "core" risk of requiring an honest majority, and just the fact that regardless of the application/payload, any P2P system can have risks mitigated by whitelists/blacklists
 113 2013-11-10 01:03:30 <groglogic> and air gaps, etc.
 114 2013-11-10 01:03:40 <groglogic> and offline private keys, etc
 115 2013-11-10 01:04:26 <groglogic> such an elegant design, the more I absorb it, learn about its subtle aspects/implications. imo
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 132 2013-11-10 01:16:13 <s7r> what's new in 0.8.5? any improvements or security updates?
 133 2013-11-10 01:17:16 <RoboTeddy> s7r: can see release notes here - http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.5/
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 138 2013-11-10 01:20:24 <iceTwy> any Coinpunk dev here?
 139 2013-11-10 01:20:31 <iceTwy> or anyone who runs Coinpunk on a server
 140 2013-11-10 01:20:54 <warren> iceTwy: talk to the author of coinpunk directly
 141 2013-11-10 01:21:48 <warren> http://imgur.com/BUoujw7  p2pool BTC growth over time.  Impressive. =)
 142 2013-11-10 01:22:29 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 143 2013-11-10 01:22:47 dongshengcn is now known as ds|away
 144 2013-11-10 01:24:04 <iceTwy> well I'm simply asking myself one thing
 145 2013-11-10 01:24:05 <iceTwy> it's not an issue, directly
 146 2013-11-10 01:24:05 <iceTwy> but
 147 2013-11-10 01:24:05 <iceTwy> right, so, CoinPunk uses sipa's patch for watch-only addresses
 148 2013-11-10 01:24:17 <iceTwy> right, so, CoinPunk uses sipa's patch for watch-only addresses
 149 2013-11-10 01:24:36 <iceTwy> and it recommends downloading an archive of sipa's bitcoin repo, instead of the main one
 150 2013-11-10 01:24:53 <warren> iceTwy: https://github.com/wtogami/bitcoin/tree/btc-0.8.5-watchonly
 151 2013-11-10 01:24:57 <iceTwy> aaand afaik, sipa's bitcoin repo hasn't been updated to 0.8.5
 152 2013-11-10 01:25:02 <warren> iceTwy: my branch of 0.8.5 + watchonly here is well tested
 153 2013-11-10 01:25:14 <warren> iceTwy: it is what kyledrake uses for now
 154 2013-11-10 01:25:25 <iceTwy> oh
 155 2013-11-10 01:25:27 <iceTwy> sweet
 156 2013-11-10 01:25:36 <iceTwy> then the install guide for CoinPunk should be modified. I'll send in a pull request
 157 2013-11-10 01:25:51 <warren> iceTwy: I tried to merge it with my larger 0.8.5 branch but it conflicts with Coin Control so it remains separate for now.
 158 2013-11-10 01:25:56 <iceTwy> warren: will my bitcoin data repo be cross compatible?
 159 2013-11-10 01:26:09 <warren> iceTwy: yes
 160 2013-11-10 01:26:09 <iceTwy> should be I guess
 161 2013-11-10 01:26:11 <iceTwy> cool
 162 2013-11-10 01:26:24 <warren> iceTwy: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320695  here's bitcoin 0.8.5 with lots of other features, just not watchonly, sadly.
 163 2013-11-10 01:26:28 <iceTwy> I would really mind redownloading the blockchain for the 3rd time, haha
 164 2013-11-10 01:26:51 <iceTwy> warren: eh :/
 165 2013-11-10 01:27:11 <iceTwy> so essentially, your repo runs on mainline 0.8.5 and just adds support for watch-only addresses?
 166 2013-11-10 01:27:44 <warren> iceTwy: https://github.com/wtogami/bitcoin/commits/btc-0.8.5-watchonly  this branch has disablewallet and watchonly
 167 2013-11-10 01:27:50 <warren> seems to work
 168 2013-11-10 01:27:53 <iceTwy> hmkay
 169 2013-11-10 01:28:21 <warren> iceTwy: these branches exist because litecoin 0.8 has been testing 0.9 features for months and we figured we might as well publish experimental bitcoin client branches
 170 2013-11-10 01:28:32 swords has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 171 2013-11-10 01:28:33 <warren> iceTwy: it's helped to expose bugs that were fixed before 0.9
 172 2013-11-10 01:28:40 <iceTwy> interesting, lol
 173 2013-11-10 01:28:50 <iceTwy> litecoin's a sort of playground for bitcoin experimental features then?
 174 2013-11-10 01:28:56 <warren> iceTwy: it can be, yes.
 175 2013-11-10 01:28:58 <iceTwy> (with all due respect to litecoin)
 176 2013-11-10 01:29:07 <iceTwy> that's pretty great actually
 177 2013-11-10 01:29:14 <warren> iceTwy: litecoin dev is open to shipping and testing things quickly
 178 2013-11-10 01:29:34 MiningBuddy- has joined
 179 2013-11-10 01:29:39 <warren> iceTwy: litecoin dev has even donated lots of money to bitcoin devs to thank for certain features
 180 2013-11-10 01:30:02 <warren> iceTwy: ~$2,600 donated to p2pool dev to improve decentralized mining for both BTC and LTC.
 181 2013-11-10 01:30:44 <iceTwy> o.o
 182 2013-11-10 01:30:45 <sipa> iceTwy: my watchonly branch is rebased to git head as of a few days ago; far past 0.8.5
 183 2013-11-10 01:31:23 <warren> sipa: any bug fixes since the previous rebase?
 184 2013-11-10 01:31:26 <iceTwy> sipa: ah, really?
 185 2013-11-10 01:31:51 <sipa> warren: no, just rebase
 186 2013-11-10 01:31:55 <warren> sipa: ok
 187 2013-11-10 01:32:05 <iceTwy> sipa: I did clone your git repo and compile bitcoin from there but
 188 2013-11-10 01:32:12 <iceTwy> I still have the corrupt block database error
 189 2013-11-10 01:32:17 <iceTwy> (I've reindexed twice)
 190 2013-11-10 01:32:29 <sipa> :(
 191 2013-11-10 01:32:38 <iceTwy> and since that was fixed in 0.8.5, I was thinking that your version might not have fixed that
 192 2013-11-10 01:32:42 <iceTwy> I mean
 193 2013-11-10 01:32:47 <warren> iceTwy: you may have more luck with my watchonly 0.8.5 branch
 194 2013-11-10 01:32:48 <iceTwy> yeah
 195 2013-11-10 01:32:54 <iceTwy> warren: yeah I'll try it out
 196 2013-11-10 01:33:01 tsche has quit ()
 197 2013-11-10 01:33:13 <sipa> git head has no known errorneous corrupt chaim issues
 198 2013-11-10 01:33:18 <iceTwy> my VPS provider probably hates me by now
 199 2013-11-10 01:33:21 <iceTwy> but heh
 200 2013-11-10 01:33:28 <warren> sipa: well, there's the mac thing
 201 2013-11-10 01:33:32 MiningBuddy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 202 2013-11-10 01:33:33 <sipa> except of course cases where the chain is actually corrupted
 203 2013-11-10 01:33:44 <sipa> yes, but that's not what he was talking about
 204 2013-11-10 01:33:55 <sipa> on mac it frequently actually corrupts
 205 2013-11-10 01:34:03 <warren> sipa: toffoo is uploading to me his datadir from 0.7.2 that works with 0.7.2, indexes and works fine in 0.8.5, but crashes after a clean shutdown and restart of 0.8.5.
 206 2013-11-10 01:34:30 <sipa> ok
 207 2013-11-10 01:34:38 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'm thinking of merging https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2767 now, because I agree wil wladimirs "sooner better than later"
 208 2013-11-10 01:34:38 <sipa> that sounds weird
 209 2013-11-10 01:34:45 <warren> weird indeed
 210 2013-11-10 01:34:50 <warren> he said this datadir originates from 0.3.x
 211 2013-11-10 01:34:52 <gavinandresen> sipa: … but it'll probably create merge conflicts with EVERYTHING else
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 213 2013-11-10 01:35:25 <iceTwy> sipa: well yeah. I just finished reindexing my blockchain
 214 2013-11-10 01:35:31 <iceTwy> and it /still/ is 'corrupted'
 215 2013-11-10 01:35:33 <BW^-> is "libbitcoin" the best btc lib around? reliable logics?
 216 2013-11-10 01:35:38 <iceTwy> I can't see how it would be
 217 2013-11-10 01:35:43 <warren> gavinandresen: did you test win64 builds?
 218 2013-11-10 01:36:01 <warren> gavinandresen: how's build time improvement now?
 219 2013-11-10 01:36:01 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I've been using it for a number of months with no problems, FWIW.
 220 2013-11-10 01:36:02 <gavinandresen> warren: nope.  if it works on win32 it almost certainly works on win64, though
 221 2013-11-10 01:36:03 swords has joined
 222 2013-11-10 01:36:22 <warren> gavinandresen: I did some preliminary win64 tests and performance gains are HUGE
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 224 2013-11-10 01:36:34 <gavinandresen> warren: you mean compiling performance gains
 225 2013-11-10 01:36:46 <warren> oh, runtime in this case, sorry, different topic
 226 2013-11-10 01:36:57 <warren> and I was comparing win32 vs win64 with secp256k1
 227 2013-11-10 01:37:09 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'd like to have a look over it still, will do tomorrow
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 231 2013-11-10 01:37:41 <gavinandresen> sipa: perfect enemy of the better and all that… can fix any nits in a further pull...
 232 2013-11-10 01:37:43 <warren> gavinandresen: it appears worthwhile to make a win64 option for 0.9 if someone has time to craft it.
 233 2013-11-10 01:38:07 <warren> gavinandresen: we also haven't yet fixed the build flags for mingw gitian
 234 2013-11-10 01:38:31 <sipa> warren: how so?
 235 2013-11-10 01:38:43 <warren> sipa: the missing hardening
 236 2013-11-10 01:39:40 <sipa> ah
 237 2013-11-10 01:39:49 <sipa> is there an issue for that?
 238 2013-11-10 01:39:58 <gavinandresen> yes, one of our oldest pull requests
 239 2013-11-10 01:40:10 <sipa> ooh, that
 240 2013-11-10 01:40:18 <warren> cfields has a number of improvements to gitian that he wanted to push
 241 2013-11-10 01:40:22 <warren> but he seems to be busy lately.
 242 2013-11-10 01:40:22 <gavinandresen> "we" need to update the pull-tester machine, though...
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 244 2013-11-10 01:40:45 <warren> I'm waiting on his pushes before updating all the win32 deps.
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 252 2013-11-10 01:44:43 <MC1984> warren win64 builds are actually a alot faster? You mean like actual running?
 253 2013-11-10 01:44:59 <MC1984> verifying?
 254 2013-11-10 01:45:47 <Luke-Jr> no surprise there
 255 2013-11-10 01:46:01 <warren> MC1984: yes
 256 2013-11-10 01:46:29 <warren> I have win64 builds based on 0.8
 257 2013-11-10 01:46:42 <warren> too much of a hack to ship
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 259 2013-11-10 01:46:53 <MC1984> faster even than the 32 bit w/ libsecp256
 260 2013-11-10 01:47:05 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: libsecp256k1 doesn't really optimise 32-bit
 261 2013-11-10 01:47:07 <warren> MC1984: libsecp256k1 itself is wayyyy slower on 32bit
 262 2013-11-10 01:47:20 <MC1984> oh yeah i remember someone saying
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 264 2013-11-10 01:48:48 <MC1984> its because the processor can process 64 bits of whatevers in the registers per clock instead of 32 or somthing right
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 269 2013-11-10 01:53:44 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: no.
 270 2013-11-10 01:53:53 <Luke-Jr> well, maybe partly
 271 2013-11-10 01:54:09 <Luke-Jr> but sipa didn't even try to optimise 32-bit IIRC
 272 2013-11-10 01:55:48 <iceTwy> warren: erm.
 273 2013-11-10 01:55:56 <iceTwy> here's another issue that could be solved with sipa's bitcoin repo haha
 274 2013-11-10 01:56:05 robocoin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 275 2013-11-10 01:56:43 <iceTwy> I'm building bitcoin w/ your watch-only repo. but my libdb package is too recent
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 277 2013-11-10 01:56:52 <iceTwy> I have libdb5.1 installed, not libdb4.8
 278 2013-11-10 01:56:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's somewhat optimized.
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 280 2013-11-10 01:58:13 <sipa> iceTwy: has nothing to do with my repo
 281 2013-11-10 01:58:24 <warren> iceTwy: 0.8 which you're building can build against either 4.8 or 5.1
 282 2013-11-10 01:58:25 <sipa> iceTwy: you can use --with-incompatible-bdb
 283 2013-11-10 01:59:11 <sipa> Luke-Jr: 32-bit libsecp256k1 is still 2-3 times faster than 32-bit openssl
 284 2013-11-10 01:59:34 elevatioN has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 285 2013-11-10 02:00:38 <warren> sipa: any progress on getting an audit of libsecp256k1?
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 290 2013-11-10 02:03:08 <iceTwy> god
 291 2013-11-10 02:03:22 <iceTwy> still getting the corrupted DB error
 292 2013-11-10 02:03:25 <iceTwy> I guess it is legit corrupt then
 293 2013-11-10 02:03:38 <warren> which db is corrupt?
 294 2013-11-10 02:03:56 <iceTwy> warren: : Corrupted block database detected.
 295 2013-11-10 02:03:59 <iceTwy> Do you want to rebuild the block database now?
 296 2013-11-10 02:04:06 <iceTwy> that's when I launch bitcoind
 297 2013-11-10 02:04:29 <gmaxwell> uh. hey, can someone restart a node with a big dbcache and checkblocks tuened up?  My laptop barfs at 268699 minus ~20 blocks.
 298 2013-11-10 02:04:55 <iceTwy> warren: does that mean I have to redownload the blockchain for a 4th time
 299 2013-11-10 02:04:59 <warren> gmaxwell: 0.8.5 fine?
 300 2013-11-10 02:05:04 <warren> gmaxwell: give me the exact parameters to use
 301 2013-11-10 02:05:21 <warren> iceTwy: what OS are you running?
 302 2013-11-10 02:05:45 <iceTwy> warren: Debian Wheezy
 303 2013-11-10 02:06:03 <warren> iceTwy: are you certain your hardware is fine?
 304 2013-11-10 02:06:09 <warren> iceTwy: check for smart errors
 305 2013-11-10 02:06:14 <iceTwy> warren: can't be sure. it's a VPS
 306 2013-11-10 02:06:15 <gmaxwell> warren: bitcoind -dbcache=2000 (hopefully you have 2gb availble) -checkblocks=2000
 307 2013-11-10 02:06:16 <warren> iceTwy: and weird stuff in dmesg
 308 2013-11-10 02:06:31 <iceTwy> agh, dmesg is full of iptables spam
 309 2013-11-10 02:06:34 <iceTwy> but yeah
 310 2013-11-10 02:06:40 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm likely a few thousand blocks behind, should I sync normally first then restart with that?
 311 2013-11-10 02:06:54 <gmaxwell> warren: warren yea sure.
 312 2013-11-10 02:06:57 <warren> gmaxwell: ok
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 316 2013-11-10 02:08:10 <warren> syncing
 317 2013-11-10 02:08:34 <iceTwy> warren: no errors whatsoever in dmesg
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 321 2013-11-10 02:09:45 <warren> TBF, i did see unexplained corruption on linux recently =(
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 323 2013-11-10 02:15:10 * iceTwy sighs
 324 2013-11-10 02:15:11 <iceTwy> ugggggggggggggh
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 327 2013-11-10 02:19:38 <dobry-den> is that corruption in leveldb
 328 2013-11-10 02:19:47 <iceTwy> can't know for sure
 329 2013-11-10 02:19:53 <iceTwy> but apparently.
 330 2013-11-10 02:20:04 <iceTwy> warren: the disk of the VPS host machine is not failing
 331 2013-11-10 02:20:39 <iceTwy> warren: wouldn't it come from the fact that I use libdb5.1?
 332 2013-11-10 02:20:44 <iceTwy> I see no other possible explanation
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 338 2013-11-10 02:25:18 <warren> hmmm
 339 2013-11-10 02:25:22 <warren> I'm seeing tons of this:
 340 2013-11-10 02:25:23 <warren> received block 00000000000000016a7c02a2e5961c3b221fe7ea66b3f8be8e9bd759a5c7dd45
 341 2013-11-10 02:25:23 <warren> ERROR: ProcessBlock() : already have block 268697 00000000000000016a7c02a2e5961c3b221fe7ea66b3f8be8e9bd759a5c7dd45
 342 2013-11-10 02:25:29 <warren> I mean LOTS
 343 2013-11-10 02:26:12 <iceTwy> aaaah
 344 2013-11-10 02:26:14 <iceTwy> I'm getting this
 345 2013-11-10 02:26:16 <iceTwy> ERROR: VerifyDB() : *** coin database inconsistencies found (last 83 blocks, 824 good transactions before that)
 346 2013-11-10 02:26:40 <iceTwy> think I should remove the most recent blk.dat files
 347 2013-11-10 02:26:44 <iceTwy> like, one or two of em
 348 2013-11-10 02:26:46 <iceTwy> ?
 349 2013-11-10 02:28:26 <dobry-den> maybe you can try rebuilding from blk*.dats first
 350 2013-11-10 02:28:48 <dobry-den> to ensure leveldb isnt in busted state (dunno how it works or if it's applicable, tho)
 351 2013-11-10 02:29:26 <iceTwy> nonono
 352 2013-11-10 02:29:34 <iceTwy> as recently as 12 days ago
 353 2013-11-10 02:29:36 <iceTwy> someone had the issue
 354 2013-11-10 02:29:47 <iceTwy> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3156
 355 2013-11-10 02:29:54 <warren> Verifying last 2000 blocks at level 3
 356 2013-11-10 02:29:54 <warren> No coin database inconsistencies in last 2001 blocks (565244 transactions)
 357 2013-11-10 02:29:54 <warren>  block index           73824ms
 358 2013-11-10 02:29:56 <warren> gmaxwell: no errors
 359 2013-11-10 02:29:59 <iceTwy> and the fix is here:https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/377cd749308d43bc718cac806a3f8a1710652b0e
 360 2013-11-10 02:30:23 <sipa> iceTwy: and are you running with that fix?
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 363 2013-11-10 02:32:02 <iceTwy> sipa: about to
 364 2013-11-10 02:32:10 <iceTwy> adding it in so as to recompile
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 366 2013-11-10 02:32:27 <sipa> iceTwy: my branch should have it, no?
 367 2013-11-10 02:32:34 <iceTwy> sipa
 368 2013-11-10 02:32:36 <iceTwy> iunno
 369 2013-11-10 02:32:40 <iceTwy> I'll just reclone your branch
 370 2013-11-10 02:32:49 <iceTwy> just for the sake of being sure
 371 2013-11-10 02:32:53 <sipa> apparently it doesn't have it
 372 2013-11-10 02:32:59 <sipa> indeed better to always merge with master
 373 2013-11-10 02:33:10 <sipa> there are frequent bugs in it that get fixed quickly
 374 2013-11-10 02:33:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: does 0.8.5 do provably pruning?
 375 2013-11-10 02:33:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: if we're (again...) seeing a problem because of it, 0.8.5 won't catch it
 376 2013-11-10 02:34:41 <iceTwy> sipa: your branch doesn't have it then?
 377 2013-11-10 02:34:44 <iceTwy> hm
 378 2013-11-10 02:34:46 <iceTwy> guess a patch will do for the moment
 379 2013-11-10 02:34:57 <sipa> iceTwy: just merge with master
 380 2013-11-10 02:35:02 <sipa> it applies cleanly
 381 2013-11-10 02:35:05 <sipa> gmaxwell:
 382 2013-11-10 02:35:07 <sipa> 2013-11-10 02:31:52 No coin database inconsistencies in last 289 blocks (117631 transactions)
 383 2013-11-10 02:35:10 <sipa> 2013-11-10 02:31:52  block index           24404ms
 384 2013-11-10 02:35:15 <iceTwy> sipa: ?
 385 2013-11-10 02:35:35 <iceTwy> master of what repo
 386 2013-11-10 02:35:38 <sipa> iceTwy: bitcoin
 387 2013-11-10 02:35:44 <iceTwy> bitcoin/bitcoin?
 388 2013-11-10 02:35:46 <sipa> yes
 389 2013-11-10 02:35:52 <iceTwy> hmkay
 390 2013-11-10 02:35:54 <iceTwy> I'll try it out
 391 2013-11-10 02:36:03 <iceTwy> as for your repo
 392 2013-11-10 02:36:10 <iceTwy> should I checkout the watchonly branch
 393 2013-11-10 02:36:13 <sipa> yes
 394 2013-11-10 02:36:16 <iceTwy> k
 395 2013-11-10 02:36:19 <sipa> git checkout watchonly
 396 2013-11-10 02:36:25 <sipa> git reset --hard sipa/watchonly
 397 2013-11-10 02:36:33 <sipa> git merge upstream/master
 398 2013-11-10 02:36:42 <sipa> i'll rebase my branch on master
 399 2013-11-10 02:37:19 <sipa> done
 400 2013-11-10 02:37:35 <iceTwy> right
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 416 2013-11-10 03:03:53 <iceTwy> now.. that is odd
 417 2013-11-10 03:04:03 <iceTwy> I've just compiled libdb4.8 with c++ support
 418 2013-11-10 03:04:19 <iceTwy> linked db_cxx.h to /usr/include
 419 2013-11-10 03:04:27 <iceTwy> aaaand wrong version
 420 2013-11-10 03:04:42 <iceTwy> (I'm using 4.8.30NC, got it from Oracle's website)
 421 2013-11-10 03:05:50 <Luke-Jr> generally it's a bad idea to mess with your rootfs
 422 2013-11-10 03:06:37 <iceTwy> it is
 423 2013-11-10 03:06:48 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 424 2013-11-10 03:06:51 <iceTwy> but I'm just linking one file to compile Bitcoin properly
 425 2013-11-10 03:06:55 <iceTwy> could remove it after, no probs
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 447 2013-11-10 03:32:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm crud. well I have a git build as of e2130051778 which (again) isn't coming up. I guess I'll look into it in the morning.
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 508 2013-11-10 04:40:09 <Evilmax> all sleeping?
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 527 2013-11-10 05:03:14 <BlueMatt> Evilmax: ask. never ask to ask
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 535 2013-11-10 05:11:48 <Evilmax> BlueMatt
 536 2013-11-10 05:11:59 <Evilmax> my bitcoin -server balance
 537 2013-11-10 05:12:05 <Evilmax> doesn't refresh
 538 2013-11-10 05:13:41 <Evilmax> i asked...
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 554 2013-11-10 05:38:59 <BlueMatt> Evilmax: in what sense?
 555 2013-11-10 05:39:06 <BlueMatt> there are many balances you could be looking for
 556 2013-11-10 05:39:15 <BlueMatt> "confirmed" vs "immature" vs "unconfirmed"
 557 2013-11-10 05:39:31 <BlueMatt> account balances?
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 564 2013-11-10 05:50:39 <Evilmax> yes
 565 2013-11-10 05:50:42 <Evilmax> account balance
 566 2013-11-10 05:51:27 <Evilmax> after more than 8 confirmation....my bitcoind still show old balance
 567 2013-11-10 05:52:03 <BlueMatt> does it have peers? does it have the right block count?
 568 2013-11-10 05:52:16 <Evilmax> yes
 569 2013-11-10 05:52:20 <Evilmax> block updated
 570 2013-11-10 05:52:22 groglogic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 571 2013-11-10 05:52:24 <Evilmax> i explain..:
 572 2013-11-10 05:52:26 deepc0re has quit (Client Quit)
 573 2013-11-10 05:52:35 <Evilmax> i run on windows the bitcoin-qt
 574 2013-11-10 05:52:39 <Evilmax> in mode -server
 575 2013-11-10 05:52:48 <Evilmax> i sent all my btc (0.9)
 576 2013-11-10 05:52:51 <Evilmax> on bitstamp
 577 2013-11-10 05:52:55 <Evilmax> for exchange them
 578 2013-11-10 05:53:09 <Evilmax> but if i do "bitcoind getbalance username"
 579 2013-11-10 05:53:15 <Evilmax> it sill show old balance
 580 2013-11-10 05:53:24 <Evilmax> username= a user of mine
 581 2013-11-10 05:53:35 <Evilmax> instead...the client gui show 0 balance
 582 2013-11-10 05:53:38 <Evilmax> why?
 583 2013-11-10 05:53:52 <BlueMatt> when you sent the coins, they were sent from the default account
 584 2013-11-10 05:54:08 <BlueMatt> so that account has positive balance, the default account has negative balance
 585 2013-11-10 05:54:11 <BlueMatt> in total, its 0
 586 2013-11-10 05:54:28 <Evilmax> what i have to do...to get user balances updated?
 587 2013-11-10 05:54:30 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 588 2013-11-10 05:54:31 <Evilmax> then?
 589 2013-11-10 05:54:39 <Belxjander> Evilmax: each "Address" is a seperate wallet or storage... the wallet on your computer saw the transfer of funds to the BitStamp wallet and now they are outside what it is looking at on the blockchain
 590 2013-11-10 05:54:40 <BlueMatt> bitcoind's accounts feature does not handle sends from bitcoin-qt well
 591 2013-11-10 05:54:54 <Evilmax> maybe next time i have to send btc from every user balance?
 592 2013-11-10 05:55:14 <BlueMatt> if you do getbalance without the user, what does it show?
 593 2013-11-10 05:55:25 <Evilmax> it shows old balance
 594 2013-11-10 05:55:38 <Evilmax> 0.9 were divided in various users
 595 2013-11-10 05:55:45 <Evilmax> i sent btc from qt client
 596 2013-11-10 05:55:50 <Evilmax> not from every single user
 597 2013-11-10 05:55:52 <Evilmax> of course
 598 2013-11-10 05:56:05 <BlueMatt> well, there should be a negative balance on one of the accounts that offsets the rest
 599 2013-11-10 05:56:09 <Evilmax> it would show 0 balance for every users
 600 2013-11-10 05:56:20 <BlueMatt> using bitcoind's accounts feature in combination with bitcoin-qt will break things
 601 2013-11-10 05:56:32 <Evilmax> excuseme
 602 2013-11-10 05:56:37 <Evilmax> maybe next time i have to send btc from every user balance???
 603 2013-11-10 05:56:38 <BlueMatt> and since no one really uses the accounts feature, no one has bothered to fix it
 604 2013-11-10 05:57:15 <BlueMatt> if you want to get them all to show 0, yes, youd have to do that...but you'd create a transaction each time and thus pay more in fees and wait longer for confirms
 605 2013-11-10 05:57:19 <Evilmax> i am ussing server mode and account futures because my bitcoind is hosted on a site
 606 2013-11-10 05:57:21 <BlueMatt> there really isnt a way to win this
 607 2013-11-10 05:57:26 <Evilmax> i have done a walet online
 608 2013-11-10 05:57:29 <Evilmax> wallet
 609 2013-11-10 05:57:45 <Evilmax> next time i will try to send btc from single account
 610 2013-11-10 05:58:04 <BlueMatt> yea, you probably just want to manage accounts yourself and let bitcoind just use the default account
 611 2013-11-10 05:58:07 <Evilmax> but i was afraid...because value of btc tonight is fall downn again
 612 2013-11-10 05:58:16 <BlueMatt> it'll save you trouble
 613 2013-11-10 05:58:29 <Evilmax> the only important thing is that...my users will not get erroneus balance
 614 2013-11-10 05:58:52 <BlueMatt> well short modifying your wallet by hand, there is little you can do to fix it
 615 2013-11-10 05:58:59 <Evilmax> surely all will work because they do it inside their single accounts
 616 2013-11-10 05:59:19 <Evilmax> how i can modify it "by hand"?
 617 2013-11-10 05:59:37 <BlueMatt> maybe use bitcointools, but you'd probably have to modify bitcointools to do it right
 618 2013-11-10 05:59:55 <Evilmax> bitcoin tools?
 619 2013-11-10 06:00:02 <Evilmax> what do you mean?
 620 2013-11-10 06:00:09 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools
 621 2013-11-10 06:00:29 <Evilmax> i ll take a look...
 622 2013-11-10 06:03:09 <gavinandresen> Evilmax: listaccounts will tell you balances for all of the accounts.  If balances are incorrect because you did a send from bitcoin-qt, you can use the 'move' command to adjust them.
 623 2013-11-10 06:03:33 <Evilmax> now i tryed to send from that account...it says "insufficient funds" but still show old balance
 624 2013-11-10 06:03:35 <Evilmax> bah!
 625 2013-11-10 06:03:51 <Evilmax> yes
 626 2013-11-10 06:03:53 <BlueMatt> oh, I forgot we had a move command
 627 2013-11-10 06:04:03 <Evilmax> surely because i sent from client gui, from general client gui
 628 2013-11-10 06:04:14 <Evilmax> anyway it is a bug, no?
 629 2013-11-10 06:05:11 <gmaxwell> Oh great. Apparently blockchain.info subtracts some multiple of the txfee it uses from the user's balance, so they still have coins when it shows zero... thats gotta be great for the utxo set long term.
 630 2013-11-10 06:05:23 <gavinandresen> yes, it surely is a bug.  The bitcoind accounts feature and bitcoin-qt don't play well together.
 631 2013-11-10 06:05:36 <Evilmax> "bitcoind listaccounts" shows all received, not the balance
 632 2013-11-10 06:05:56 <Evilmax> otherwise i would be rich now!
 633 2013-11-10 06:06:00 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hope to god they clean up their utxo set with a big claim tx at some point...
 634 2013-11-10 06:06:05 <Evilmax> i moved more thann 1500 btc
 635 2013-11-10 06:06:13 <BlueMatt> Evilmax: some of the accounts should have negative balances, no?
 636 2013-11-10 06:06:18 <Evilmax> no
 637 2013-11-10 06:06:20 <Evilmax> no one
 638 2013-11-10 06:06:21 <gavinandresen> Evilmax: really?  that would be another bug.  Sum of balances in listaccounts should equal the wallet balance
 639 2013-11-10 06:06:59 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: blockchain.info doesn't have control over their users' keys :/
 640 2013-11-10 06:07:03 <Evilmax> i use qt 4.8.3: it is bugged?
 641 2013-11-10 06:07:16 <Luke-Jr> Evilmax: I doubt Qt is at fault for this
 642 2013-11-10 06:07:17 <gavinandresen> the move RPC command just adjusts account balances, it doesn't send bitcoins anywhere.
 643 2013-11-10 06:07:27 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: oh...great
 644 2013-11-10 06:07:32 <phantomcircuit> Evilmax, have you paid your own addresses?
 645 2013-11-10 06:07:40 <Evilmax> paid?
 646 2013-11-10 06:08:10 <phantomcircuit> have you created a transactions which uses inputs in your wallet and can be spent by private keys in your wallet
 647 2013-11-10 06:08:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: they can't, since the utxo are in users wallets which they could only access by cracking the keys... at least if the users abandon them because their balance is zero..
 648 2013-11-10 06:08:25 <Evilmax> i run qt in server mode on windows...and a bitcoin site on linux...it perform command through lan by using curl
 649 2013-11-10 06:08:50 <Evilmax> on linux site...balance are still the old ones
 650 2013-11-10 06:08:55 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, great
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 652 2013-11-10 06:09:04 <Evilmax> on qt client (windows) al works well
 653 2013-11-10 06:09:06 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 654 2013-11-10 06:09:23 <Evilmax> but if i check daemon in prompt (windows) still it show incorrect balance
 655 2013-11-10 06:09:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: they could have the wallet do a dust-be-gone when it gets to zero.
 656 2013-11-10 06:09:26 <Evilmax> balances
 657 2013-11-10 06:09:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, they need to do that
 658 2013-11-10 06:09:49 apurplehorse has joined
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 660 2013-11-10 06:09:53 <Evilmax> in win prompt, of course, i do not use curl...but simply "bitcoind" command
 661 2013-11-10 06:09:56 <gmaxwell> petertodd: ^ make it so.
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 664 2013-11-10 06:10:10 <Evilmax> i don't know...
 665 2013-11-10 06:10:20 dust-otc has joined
 666 2013-11-10 06:10:25 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: wait, petertodd has control over bc.i?
 667 2013-11-10 06:10:38 Perlboy has quit (Excess Flood)
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 669 2013-11-10 06:12:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: he's caused them to make more changes than anyone else I know.
 670 2013-11-10 06:12:19 <gmaxwell> they sure as heck don't listen to me!
 671 2013-11-10 06:12:33 <BlueMatt> hmm, fun
 672 2013-11-10 06:12:39 <BlueMatt> yea, I know they generally dont listen to much that comes out of here
 673 2013-11-10 06:13:15 <phantomcircuit> in related news
 674 2013-11-10 06:13:22 <phantomcircuit> i broke their shitty captcha
 675 2013-11-10 06:13:28 <phantomcircuit> can you say
 676 2013-11-10 06:13:33 <phantomcircuit> free key/value database???
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 680 2013-11-10 06:19:53 <phantomcircuit> lol
 681 2013-11-10 06:19:54 <phantomcircuit>         reason = "mucho-data";
 682 2013-11-10 06:19:56 <phantomcircuit> really guys
 683 2013-11-10 06:20:13 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, :)
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 686 2013-11-10 06:26:37 <warren> hmm, p2pool is stuck at 2% of both BTC and LTC's network.  I wonder why it is there in particular.
 687 2013-11-10 06:27:10 <Polyatomic> bitcoind 0.8.5 Question(Windows): Is it possible to do move <all> <toaccount> <amount> from command prompt ?.
 688 2013-11-10 06:27:52 <BlueMatt> Polyatomic: use a shell that has support for loops?
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 693 2013-11-10 06:30:43 <Polyatomic> All the balances are incorrect , so I do not know how much is really in the accounts.
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 700 2013-11-10 06:53:30 <warren> Is it possible for a regular tx to be an input to supplement the coinbase tx?
 701 2013-11-10 06:53:53 <warren> Thinking of ways to further incent decentralized mining...
 702 2013-11-10 06:54:09 duckybsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 703 2013-11-10 06:54:22 duckybsd has joined
 704 2013-11-10 06:54:55 reneg has joined
 705 2013-11-10 06:55:45 <Luke-Jr> warren: no
 706 2013-11-10 06:56:21 <warren> Luke-Jr: would that be a reasonable idea for a long distant hardfork?
 707 2013-11-10 06:56:44 <Luke-Jr> warren: maybe.
 708 2013-11-10 06:56:52 <Luke-Jr> probably not very important though.
 709 2013-11-10 06:57:10 <warren> oh.  the fee does supplement the coinbase tx.
 710 2013-11-10 06:57:29 <Luke-Jr> yes, but you can't stop other miners from stealing it
 711 2013-11-10 06:57:39 <warren> crap ... especially for p2pool
 712 2013-11-10 06:57:42 <Luke-Jr> 50 BTC fee? great, let's risk replacing them..
 713 2013-11-10 06:57:47 <warren> a non-p2pool pool could grab it
 714 2013-11-10 06:58:40 <warren> the bigger problem will be figuring out how to incent relaying
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 717 2013-11-10 07:05:15 <lachesis> are there any bitcoin clients that (a) implement the full security model, (b) don't retain the full transaction history (the parts that are only required for bootstrapping other clients), and (c) support deterministic wallets?
 718 2013-11-10 07:06:44 <maaku> lachesis:
 719 2013-11-10 07:06:45 <maaku> lachesis: no
 720 2013-11-10 07:07:18 <maaku> there are no other clients which can be said with confidence to implement "the full security model"
 721 2013-11-10 07:07:30 <maaku> bug-for-bug compatability with bitcoind
 722 2013-11-10 07:07:41 UnnamedUser9961 has joined
 723 2013-11-10 07:08:00 <maaku> not sure your context, but probabably best to use another wallet connected to bitcoind for validation
 724 2013-11-10 07:09:05 UnnamedUser9961 has left ()
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 726 2013-11-10 07:09:16 <warren> lachesis: bitcoin itself will eventually have pruning, which allows fully verifying nodes to discard old blocks
 727 2013-11-10 07:09:42 <lachesis> warren, is that targeted for a particular release?
 728 2013-11-10 07:10:04 <warren> lachesis: I don't know for bitcoin.  litecoin is attempting that for 0.9, or at least prototyping it.
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 735 2013-11-10 07:27:32 <warren> phantomcircuit: I'm seeing weird behavior after the processgetdata patch
 736 2013-11-10 07:27:41 <warren> phantomcircuit: not incorrect behavior, just weird log spam
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 746 2013-11-10 07:56:55 <phantomcircuit> warren, like what?
 747 2013-11-10 07:58:19 <warren> phantomcircuit: are you seeing incremental getblocks from peers, and a great many instances where all peers are sending blocks you already have?  might be a coincidence ...
 748 2013-11-10 08:00:21 <phantomcircuit> hmm no
 749 2013-11-10 08:06:37 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
 750 2013-11-10 08:06:45 <phantomcircuit> warren, the node i have running master has a bunch of other stuff so give me a few to builda  clean one
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 752 2013-11-10 08:08:31 <Evilmax> nothing to do
 753 2013-11-10 08:08:37 <Evilmax> i am not able to resolve this issue
 754 2013-11-10 08:11:02 <phantomcircuit> Evilmax, what's the problem?
 755 2013-11-10 08:11:24 <Evilmax> bitcoin balance
 756 2013-11-10 08:11:43 <phantomcircuit> Evilmax, write a more complete description
 757 2013-11-10 08:13:01 <Evilmax> i have a qt client on windows in server mode...then, on linux, through lan, i use curl for control some accounts of the bitcoind daemon...i sent all my btc, that were distribuited on several accounts, from my qt client...where now balance is 0. But on linux bitcoind account thare are still old balances
 758 2013-11-10 08:13:55 <Evilmax> and if i ask balance to daemon by use windows prompt shell...it alway tell me that some account have still bitcoins
 759 2013-11-10 08:14:18 <Evilmax> i want get updated balance on every accounts
 760 2013-11-10 08:14:25 <Evilmax> that is 0, zero
 761 2013-11-10 08:14:59 <phantomcircuit> Evilmax, listaccounts
 762 2013-11-10 08:15:05 <Evilmax> done
 763 2013-11-10 08:15:11 <Evilmax> it shows old balances
 764 2013-11-10 08:15:12 <phantomcircuit> that will probably show some positive and negative accounts
 765 2013-11-10 08:15:32 <phantomcircuit> Evilmax, do you have two clients running?
 766 2013-11-10 08:15:35 <Evilmax> no, only positive...and does not show balances but all received
 767 2013-11-10 08:15:44 <Evilmax> nno, just one in server mode on windows
 768 2013-11-10 08:15:57 <Polyatomic> phantomcircuit: will listaccounts show immature balances.
 769 2013-11-10 08:15:59 <phantomcircuit> so what about the linux box?
 770 2013-11-10 08:16:04 <Evilmax> i connect daemon (qt in server mode) from a linux in the lan
 771 2013-11-10 08:16:11 <phantomcircuit> Polyatomic, by default no
 772 2013-11-10 08:16:15 <Evilmax> linux box only host a site
 773 2013-11-10 08:16:26 <Evilmax> that ask to daemon on windows
 774 2013-11-10 08:16:30 <phantomcircuit> Evilmax, oh you're the guy we warned not to use the accounts feature
 775 2013-11-10 08:16:32 Tom_Soft has joined
 776 2013-11-10 08:16:34 <Evilmax> through curl command
 777 2013-11-10 08:16:34 <phantomcircuit> yeah im out gl with that
 778 2013-11-10 08:16:43 c_k has joined
 779 2013-11-10 08:16:54 <Evilmax> but i need to use account futures
 780 2013-11-10 08:16:54 c_k has quit (Changing host)
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 782 2013-11-10 08:17:02 <Evilmax> because the site on linux
 783 2013-11-10 08:17:07 <Apocalyptic> as phantomcircuit said,  people should make their own accounting overlay
 784 2013-11-10 08:17:10 <Evilmax> it's an online wallet
 785 2013-11-10 08:17:20 <Apocalyptic> don't rely on the wallet's one
 786 2013-11-10 08:17:28 <phantomcircuit> Apocalyptic, it's pointless he's never going to listen to us
 787 2013-11-10 08:17:41 mappppum has joined
 788 2013-11-10 08:17:46 <phantomcircuit> Evilmax, you might as well just sell your bitcoins and burn the cash
 789 2013-11-10 08:17:56 <Evilmax> no
 790 2013-11-10 08:18:01 <Evilmax> i host a service
 791 2013-11-10 08:18:08 <Apocalyptic> so do I
 792 2013-11-10 08:18:13 <Evilmax> let me use the translator, pls
 793 2013-11-10 08:18:16 <Apocalyptic> why don't you write your own accounting system ?
 794 2013-11-10 08:18:43 <Evilmax> guys, I do not want to preach, but only explanations
 795 2013-11-10 08:18:53 <Apocalyptic> that gets notified on each received block and does the changes related to incoming transactions
 796 2013-11-10 08:19:00 <Alina-malina> Hello all! I am newbiew trying to understand bitcoin source code, please tell me what kind of technic it uses inside beside multithreading what kind of database modules it uses to intaract with the 8 gig database file?
 797 2013-11-10 08:19:00 <Evilmax> guys, I do not want sermons, but only explanations
 798 2013-11-10 08:19:16 <Evilmax> if you can
 799 2013-11-10 08:19:26 <Evilmax> only answer my questions pls
 800 2013-11-10 08:20:18 <warren> Evilmax: the accounts feature within bitcoin-qt needs to be removed.
 801 2013-11-10 08:20:19 <phantomcircuit> lol
 802 2013-11-10 08:20:22 <warren> Evilmax: it sucks
 803 2013-11-10 08:20:29 <warren> Evilmax: and nobody will fix it
 804 2013-11-10 08:20:50 <warren> Evilmax: the major services wrote their own accounting system that bypasses the bitcoin wallet entirely
 805 2013-11-10 08:20:51 mappum has joined
 806 2013-11-10 08:20:55 <Evilmax> in the channel of the php ... wondering how to get one thing just using php
 807 2013-11-10 08:20:55 <Evilmax> everyone said "but no! impossible ... you have to use jscript"
 808 2013-11-10 08:20:55 <Evilmax> Well I obtained it using php only!
 809 2013-11-10 08:20:55 mapppum has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 810 2013-11-10 08:21:54 <Evilmax> because i need to use the server...the daemon...but i like to have gui too
 811 2013-11-10 08:22:31 <Evilmax> about php...it was a simple slider box of images
 812 2013-11-10 08:22:35 <Evilmax> i used php+css
 813 2013-11-10 08:22:39 <Evilmax> no jscript
 814 2013-11-10 08:23:21 mappppum has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 815 2013-11-10 08:23:59 * warren sets ignore.
 816 2013-11-10 08:25:33 <Evilmax> "the major services wrote their own accounting system that bypasses the bitcoin wallet entirely" good info
 817 2013-11-10 08:25:35 <Evilmax> tnx
 818 2013-11-10 08:25:51 <Evilmax> at least you said something usefull
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 821 2013-11-10 08:28:23 <Apocalyptic> haha warren
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 823 2013-11-10 08:29:35 <Evilmax> Apocalyptic
 824 2013-11-10 08:29:47 <Evilmax> what do you mean for "my own accounting system"?
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 826 2013-11-10 08:30:56 <Apocalyptic> create your own database/file/whatever to store bitcoin amounts you receive
 827 2013-11-10 08:31:25 <Evilmax> but it has alway to interact with daemon?
 828 2013-11-10 08:31:30 <Evilmax> always
 829 2013-11-10 08:31:35 <Apocalyptic> sure it has
 830 2013-11-10 08:32:08 <Apocalyptic> otherwise where do you get the info from .
 831 2013-11-10 08:32:22 <Evilmax> sorry i do not understand what you mean...you say that i have to create a database file similar to that one i can find in bitcoin directory?
 832 2013-11-10 08:32:41 <Evilmax> yes?
 833 2013-11-10 08:33:00 <Apocalyptic> not at all...
 834 2013-11-10 08:33:29 <Evilmax> consider that i do not know bitcoin source etc
 835 2013-11-10 08:33:52 <Evilmax> in this momennt i just use some bitcoind command like getbalance, sendfrom etc
 836 2013-11-10 08:34:16 <Evilmax> explain better please, let me understand
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 838 2013-11-10 08:34:23 <Evilmax> i thank you for this
 839 2013-11-10 08:34:40 <Evilmax> db file...a txt?
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 842 2013-11-10 08:42:36 <swulf--> Hey, I'm not getting much feedback on the forums, so I was wondering if anyone in here had a few minutes to check out and test my new site? http://ms-brainwallet.github.io/
 843 2013-11-10 08:42:42 nox404 has joined
 844 2013-11-10 08:43:14 <wumpus> Alina-malina: the databases used are leveldb for the block chain database, berkelydb (currently) for the wallet
 845 2013-11-10 08:43:32 <nox404> hi guys !
 846 2013-11-10 08:43:35 <gmaxwell> swulf--: oh why oh why are you calling it *brainwallet?
 847 2013-11-10 08:43:55 <nox404> QT is giving me some "cryptic" error
 848 2013-11-10 08:43:59 <swulf--> gmaxwell: maybe a misnomer at this point, but the idea was that one of the keys would come from brainwallet.org
 849 2013-11-10 08:44:14 <swulf--> gmaxwell: I posted a thread describing the motivation for it in project development
 850 2013-11-10 08:44:18 <Apocalyptic> utterly bad idea
 851 2013-11-10 08:44:29 <gmaxwell> your example is using uncompressed keys which is lame.
 852 2013-11-10 08:44:30 <nox404> who to report  ?
 853 2013-11-10 08:44:43 <swulf--> gmaxwell: easy to fix,  point noted
 854 2013-11-10 08:44:44 <gmaxwell> swulf--: thats nailing the poor users with high transaction fees. :P
 855 2013-11-10 08:45:21 <swulf--> Most transactions should remain under 1kb in size, keeping the tx fee <0.0002 (if my math was correct?)
 856 2013-11-10 08:45:43 <swulf--> it's also just proof-of-concept and "beta", so these critiques are good
 857 2013-11-10 08:46:38 <gmaxwell> swulf--: the general problem there is that addresses are created today, spent from tomorrow, fees may be higher tomorrow, better to be conservative since it costs you nothing.
 858 2013-11-10 08:46:49 <swulf--> Sure, makes sense
 859 2013-11-10 08:46:56 <swulf--> Is it better to use compressed pubkeys in the subscript, then?
 860 2013-11-10 08:47:04 <swulf--> knocks off 32*3 bytes
 861 2013-11-10 08:47:09 <gmaxwell> yea, always use compressed pubkeys.
 862 2013-11-10 08:47:18 <swulf--> ok, added to the TODO list
 863 2013-11-10 08:47:54 <gmaxwell> swulf--: as far as the brainwallet.org thing, I'm sure you've seen my many complaints about that. People have very low success rates at using it safely.
 864 2013-11-10 08:48:19 <gmaxwell> Plus its just bad software.. if you were to use a brainwallet (still a bad idea) it should have a computationally expensive KDF not .... sha256.
 865 2013-11-10 08:48:26 <swulf--> right, part of my motivation for this was .. well, perhaps you could quickly skim my post?
 866 2013-11-10 08:48:36 <gmaxwell> link to post
 867 2013-11-10 08:48:40 <swulf--> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=325468
 868 2013-11-10 08:48:57 <swulf--> one of the keys ought to be completely randomly generated for you by some bitcoin software, using SSL and a good RNG
 869 2013-11-10 08:49:18 <swulf--> then combined with a brainwallet key in a multisig transaction, you can feel a bit safer about not having a strong-enough brainwallet passphrase
 870 2013-11-10 08:49:20 <gmaxwell> thats a nice idea.
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 872 2013-11-10 08:50:03 <gmaxwell> though ... no excuse for not using a good kdf on the human provided side. Also, the fact that its a single address is less good.
 873 2013-11-10 08:50:28 <swulf--> well... yeah
 874 2013-11-10 08:50:44 <gmaxwell> More awesome would be a spec that had three BIP32 seeds and made a swulf-three-key wallet instead of a swulf-three-key-address.
 875 2013-11-10 08:51:00 <swulf--> hmmm
 876 2013-11-10 08:51:18 <swulf--> interesting, I'm only vaguely familiar with bip32
 877 2013-11-10 08:51:18 <gmaxwell> (then using your scheme wouldn't force people into constant address reuse)
 878 2013-11-10 08:51:33 <swulf--> right, because once you spend from my current scheme you shouldn't ever send back to it
 879 2013-11-10 08:51:53 <gmaxwell> it's just a way to get infinite keys from a single seed ... with a lot of special features... like being able to derrive new pubkeys without having the private keys.
 880 2013-11-10 08:52:05 <gmaxwell> meaning in your three way scheme you could keep generating keys for the private data you have offline.
 881 2013-11-10 08:52:17 <swulf--> if that seed is ever compromised you're in trouble
 882 2013-11-10 08:52:33 <gmaxwell> swulf--: no more than in your scheme plus address reuse.
 883 2013-11-10 08:52:49 <swulf--> if the seed was only for pubkey1 and you still used a different scheme for pubkey2, then it'd be ok?
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 886 2013-11-10 08:53:57 <gmaxwell> swulf--:  I'd assume you'd have three seeds.. one for the pubkey1s one for the pubkey2s.. one for the pubkey3s.. the security is the same as your scheme, but without the forced address reuse.
 887 2013-11-10 08:54:18 <swulf--> right
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 889 2013-11-10 08:54:45 <swulf--> (I assumed brainwallet people would have some "seed" like appending an incrementing number), but integrating something like that would be more convenient
 890 2013-11-10 08:55:03 <gmaxwell> the other issue your idea has is redeemscript preservation. say you forget the backuped key but have the brain and online.. how do you recover the redeem script? assume the online has it?
 891 2013-11-10 08:55:17 <swulf--> I assume you can always rebuild it
 892 2013-11-10 08:55:29 <swulf--> but not if you forget one of the keys, huh?
 893 2013-11-10 08:55:32 <gmaxwell> how can you rebuild it if you've lost one of the keys? yea..
 894 2013-11-10 08:55:35 <swulf--> damn
 895 2013-11-10 08:56:02 <gmaxwell> swulf--: well the increment thing requires you to have the private data handty to increment which is kinda lame.. bip32 gives you a way to increment the pubkey without having the private key.
 896 2013-11-10 08:56:12 <swulf--> oh, cool.
 897 2013-11-10 08:56:22 <swulf--> Didn't know that's what bip32 was about, but it makes sense
 898 2013-11-10 08:56:47 <gmaxwell> Thats one of its features. (it can create keys which either have that property or not)
 899 2013-11-10 08:56:58 <gmaxwell> swulf--: obviously the backup and online can have the redeemscript.. and I guess thats enough since you're 2 of 3.
 900 2013-11-10 08:57:33 <swulf--> yeah, and it doesn't really hurt your security *that* much if the keys are found, so you could email them to yourself and/or keep a copy online somewhere
 901 2013-11-10 08:57:37 <gmaxwell> in the case of doing the bip32 based thing you'd have a 'meta redeemscript' which tells you how to build the per address redeemscripts.
 902 2013-11-10 08:57:40 <swulf--> s/keys/redeemscript
 903 2013-11-10 08:57:56 <swulf--> ah, cool.
 904 2013-11-10 08:58:59 <swulf--> then you could just paste in your redeemscript (which extracts the seed pubkeys) instead of pasting in three different seeds
 905 2013-11-10 08:59:02 <swulf--> ?
 906 2013-11-10 09:00:56 <gmaxwell> yep. might be better to call it something other than redeemscript though, "master redeemscript"
 907 2013-11-10 09:01:13 <gmaxwell> I suggest  you go read and internalize BIP32. :)
 908 2013-11-10 09:01:45 <swulf--> I will, thanks!
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 910 2013-11-10 09:02:05 <swulf--> I gotta run, thanks for reviewing the site and providing feedback.
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 914 2013-11-10 09:08:09 <warren> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=329860  Litecoin Dev donated $2,000 to p2pool development.  We need decentralized mining to grow much larger in order to protect Bitcoin network security in the long-term.  Please consider supporting p2pool with an added donation.
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 921 2013-11-10 09:13:04 <gmaxwell> warren: you might want to drop a post in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=303046.0
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 924 2013-11-10 09:16:12 <warren> gmaxwell: I know others have differing opinions.  I think earlier donations to incent miners to stick to  p2pool were well intentioned, but p2pool needs more technical work in order to comfortably accomodate those miners.  As it stands now the documentation and UI sucks, exacerbating the confusion pertaining to rejects being expected.  If major improvements are made to both reduce confusion and also reduce real orphan/DOA across the network then
 925 2013-11-10 09:16:12 <warren>  it can scale much larger without one-time incentive donations.
 926 2013-11-10 09:16:24 <warren> gmaxwell: btw, would you like to have access to edit the brainstorming doc?
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 933 2013-11-10 09:22:41 <gmaxwell> warren: it was very successful the first time we did it with p2pool and basically grew it 10 fold.
 934 2013-11-10 09:22:52 <gmaxwell> And yea, sure, I agree docs and ui and such need to improve.
 935 2013-11-10 09:23:04 <gmaxwell> esp since it gives a lot of stats which are normal and harmless which people misread as concerning.
 936 2013-11-10 09:23:24 <midnightmagic> warren: What do you mean here: "and also reduce real orphan/DOA across the network"?
 937 2013-11-10 09:23:35 d3p0rt3d has joined
 938 2013-11-10 09:24:05 <gmaxwell> warren: I believe that bitcoin p2pool has the lowest orphan rate of any bitcoin pool big enough to measure it for.
 939 2013-11-10 09:24:16 jtimon has joined
 940 2013-11-10 09:24:17 <warren> that's share orphan
 941 2013-11-10 09:24:19 <gmaxwell> I think it's had just two orphan blocks since march or something like that.
 942 2013-11-10 09:24:27 <gmaxwell> warren: ah.
 943 2013-11-10 09:24:48 <warren> Through various means, if share rejects can be reduced p2pool can naturally grow larger.
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 946 2013-11-10 09:25:30 <warren> there is some low hanging fruit in propagation latency improvement
 947 2013-11-10 09:25:41 <warren> likely compatible with the existing version 13 protocol
 948 2013-11-10 09:25:53 <warren> other changes would require a hardfork I think
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 950 2013-11-10 09:26:07 <midnightmagic> p2pool'ers eat up hardforks as a matter of course.
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 955 2013-11-10 09:33:01 <gmaxwell> warren: I ... don't see why you think that.
 956 2013-11-10 09:33:18 <warren> gmaxwell: I actually measured it.
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 958 2013-11-10 09:33:29 <warren> gmaxwell: it's tiny I know
 959 2013-11-10 09:33:32 <gmaxwell> Measured what?
 960 2013-11-10 09:33:42 <warren> gmaxwell: wiat, why I think what?
 961 2013-11-10 09:33:46 <gmaxwell> 01:22 < warren> Through various means, if share rejects can be reduced p2pool can naturally grow larger.
 962 2013-11-10 09:33:50 <gmaxwell> 01:22 < warren> Through various means, if share rejects can be reduced p2pool can naturally grow larger.
 963 2013-11-10 09:34:36 <warren> gmaxwell: people quit for irrational reasons.  share orphan/DOA increases as the network grows in size.  at some point people are uncomfortable with it and they quit.
 964 2013-11-10 09:34:43 <gmaxwell> ...
 965 2013-11-10 09:35:09 <gmaxwell> Then stop @#$@# calling it orphan/doa and instead focus on the efficiency metric.
 966 2013-11-10 09:35:14 <warren> gmaxwell: all those people bragging about > 100% efficiency in the p2pool thread is at the expense of someone
 967 2013-11-10 09:35:47 <gmaxwell> user misunderstanding can't be fixed by twiddling the network.
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 969 2013-11-10 09:36:39 <warren> it's different ways of improving the problem
 970 2013-11-10 09:36:44 <gmaxwell> And a 30 second sharechain is going to have a non-trivial amount of stales, it's unavoidable.
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 972 2013-11-10 09:37:22 <gmaxwell> warren: changing how the network works for that reason is hard and risky, it is bad engineering to change how something works on the basis of misunderstandings.
 973 2013-11-10 09:37:55 <warren> gmaxwell: the misunderstanding is orthogonal to techncal ways of enabling greater scaling.
 974 2013-11-10 09:38:05 <gmaxwell> warren: it can scale fine.
 975 2013-11-10 09:38:20 <warren> yes, we've been debating this since .. March... and it doesn't
 976 2013-11-10 09:38:35 <warren> it always gets stuck at a certain size
 977 2013-11-10 09:38:46 <gmaxwell> warren: You've been telling people not to use p2pool since you discovered it.
 978 2013-11-10 09:39:11 <gmaxwell> warren: because you don't understand it yourself and you're particularly vulnerable to obsessing over the states, as far as I can tell.
 979 2013-11-10 09:39:15 <warren> gmaxwell: that isn't entirely true.
 980 2013-11-10 09:39:26 <warren> gmaxwell: you're being quite rude.
 981 2013-11-10 09:40:08 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm realistic when it comes to its limitations.  Fixing the confusion problem alone will not allow it to scale much larger.
 982 2013-11-10 09:40:20 <gmaxwell> warren: P2pool is currently around the same size eligius was six months ago and had been 'stuck' at for a year. It finally broke out of that when many of the larger pools got DOSed.
 983 2013-11-10 09:40:52 <gmaxwell> warren: I've actually seen very little evidence of realism from you on the subject. I've seen a lot of confusion and FUD.
 984 2013-11-10 09:42:51 <gmaxwell> warren: the things p2pool does are roughly constant load regardless of the hashrate. This is also supported by the fact that although its hashrate has grown from 6 TH/s some months ago to now 50 TH/s its still behaving pretty much the same.
 985 2013-11-10 09:42:54 <warren> gmaxwell: I believe that fixing the confusion issue to the maximum extent will not allow it scale much more.  The network-wide orphan/DOA rate escalates whenever it does.
 986 2013-11-10 09:44:13 <gmaxwell> I don't know why you're saying that it escilates, considering that p2pool has had roughly constant stale/ophan rates with an order of magnitude change in hashrate, .... but moreover, beyond people getting confused by poorly presented stats, I don't see why you think the share orphan/doa rate matters?
 987 2013-11-10 09:45:11 <warren> We're still stuck in the same debate, and I simply disagree.
 988 2013-11-10 09:45:23 <gmaxwell> This isn't a matter of opinion, you know?
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 992 2013-11-10 09:46:25 <sipa> If the orphan/doa rate on the sharechain grows very large, it becomes a problem as it impacts variance on payouts.
 993 2013-11-10 09:46:31 <warren> gmaxwell: I would also call it inaccurate that I've been warning people away from p2pool.  I did at times when it was incapable of supporting ASIC's comfortably (which was fixed thanks in part to us.)  I also warned LTC users away from it until dust reduction locked into protocol 13.
 994 2013-11-10 09:49:39 <gmaxwell> warren: when you started asking people not to use it p2pool was a supermajority of LTC's hashrate. It's 2% now.
 995 2013-11-10 09:50:05 <warren> gmaxwell: it never was a supermajority of LTC's hashrate, not even close, I have no idea where that rumor came from.
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 997 2013-11-10 09:52:10 <warren> gmaxwell: when I started using p2pool Litecoin had a nearly 50% centralized pool (notroll.in) that later died after a payout bug bankrupted the owner.  Other huge centralized pools (wemine, giveme, coinotron, litecoinpool, ltcmine.ru) filled the vacuum.
 998 2013-11-10 09:52:34 <warren> p2pool was barely a blip on the radar
 999 2013-11-10 09:52:40 <gmaxwell> The orphan/doa rate does not increase. :(
1000 2013-11-10 09:52:41 <gmaxwell> http://people.xiph.org/~greg/p2pstale.png
1001 2013-11-10 09:52:49 <gmaxwell> This is something any p2pool node can show you.
1002 2013-11-10 09:54:04 <gmaxwell> The bottom graph is the proportional one.
1003 2013-11-10 09:55:25 <Polyatomic> The client is reporting 18 %
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1006 2013-11-10 09:56:20 reizuki__ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1007 2013-11-10 09:57:21 <warren> sigh.  my tiny research miner just burned out.
1008 2013-11-10 09:57:29 <gmaxwell> Polyatomic: 6+8 = 14, thats a month scale graph so it has a lot of time averaging.
1009 2013-11-10 09:57:42 <gmaxwell> Polyatomic: the most recent number swings around a fair bit.
1010 2013-11-10 09:59:14 <Polyatomic> Yeah man , Im pro p2pool.
1011 2013-11-10 10:01:18 <warren> gmaxwell: perhaps my guesses as to why people too easily quit p2pool are wrong.  In any case forrestv seems to like some ideas to help it scale bigger.  Whatever he decides is a good idea we'll follow.
1012 2013-11-10 10:01:47 <midnightmagic> warren: Is there some place where these ideas are presented and I can read them?
1013 2013-11-10 10:01:54 <warren> midnightmagic: yes
1014 2013-11-10 10:02:10 <warren> midnightmagic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=329860  linked in that doc, anyone can comment in the doc or reply in the thread.
1015 2013-11-10 10:03:08 rdymac has joined
1016 2013-11-10 10:03:42 <gmaxwell> warren: yea, sure improving it is fine and ducky, no objection from me on that. But I would expect that the bariers are resource usage, and education  ... and the cost of running bitcoind.
1017 2013-11-10 10:03:45 <midnightmagic> warren: I would think just reducing average variance of the doa/orphans would be enough, but the mining devices themselves have a lot to do with that
1018 2013-11-10 10:04:07 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: there are things other than fixing the devices that could probably be done to reduce mining variance.
1019 2013-11-10 10:04:33 roconnor__ has joined
1020 2013-11-10 10:05:23 <warren> gmaxwell: we offered to sponsor petertodd in implementing the final pieces of pruning for fully verifying nodes, he's a bit too busy now though.
1021 2013-11-10 10:05:32 <warren> (re: cost of running bitcoind)
1022 2013-11-10 10:05:46 <gmaxwell> warren: incidentally it was you that told me that "majority of litecoin's UXTO are actually from p2pool" which furthered my prior belief that p2pool was the largest ltc pool (due to the centeralized ones dos attacking each other, and otherwise being shady)
1023 2013-11-10 10:06:20 <warren> gmaxwell: it was true, p2pool had lots of blocks/day and approaching 1,000 txo per block
1024 2013-11-10 10:07:07 <warren> but "lots" is relative
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1026 2013-11-10 10:07:28 <warren> gmaxwell: back then p2pool had 30 blocks/day. now it's like 10.
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1029 2013-11-10 10:09:22 <warren> gmaxwell: after p2pool protocol 13 it seems UTXO growth stopped and even reversed a bit as dust combines at a rate faster than it is created.
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1032 2013-11-10 10:11:08 <gmaxwell> did your wallet software ever change so that it stopped simply forever ignoring tiny payments?
1033 2013-11-10 10:13:25 <warren> how is this relevant?
1034 2013-11-10 10:13:51 <gmaxwell> it was just wrt "dust combines" comment.
1035 2013-11-10 10:14:28 <warren> That patch was added well before my involvement and it just wasn't changed.
1036 2013-11-10 10:15:20 SwampTony has joined
1037 2013-11-10 10:15:22 <gmaxwell> warren: in any case, sorry for flaming you there. I was, and continue to be really irritated about cases where I think you chased people off p2pool for unfair reasons which were not supported by the data available to me. I think it materially set back p2pool, but on that point I only have opinion, not data, I felt like I had to constantly watch the channel for a span of time because when I didn't you were frequently telling yet another ...
1038 2013-11-10 10:15:29 <gmaxwell> ... person to not even try it. I don't generally hold grudges, but when you were saying the same stuff again you ruffled my feathers.
1039 2013-11-10 10:15:47 <gmaxwell> warren: oh I wasn't blaming you for it! I was wondering if it got removed if dust was actually getting combined.
1040 2013-11-10 10:16:06 <gmaxwell> warren: e.g. you said dust was getting confined and I thought "oh did warren remove that patch".
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1045 2013-11-10 10:17:50 <warren> gmaxwell: prior to p2pool-13 it was a confusing wreck as ASIC miners tried and failed to use it.
1046 2013-11-10 10:18:20 <warren> Yes, I acknoledge the point that technically they could have used it with massive DOA if they only accepted that is normal.
1047 2013-11-10 10:18:26 <gmaxwell> warren: prior to asic miners existing you were directing people not to use it. Shall I paste logs?
1048 2013-11-10 10:18:38 <warren> gmaxwell: for what reasons?
1049 2013-11-10 10:19:18 <gmaxwell> "high stales", variance, dust.
1050 2013-11-10 10:19:38 <warren> gmaxwell: that way way earlier, and you educated me on that.
1051 2013-11-10 10:19:42 <warren> was*
1052 2013-11-10 10:19:58 <warren> gmaxwell: I then passed on that education to many others
1053 2013-11-10 10:20:21 <warren> gmaxwell: after that point I only warned pre-13 ASIC miners and pre-13 LTC dust miners away.
1054 2013-11-10 10:20:56 <warren> and I gave up on p2pool entirely for a while and left the channel because I didn't have any ability to mine BTC anymore
1055 2013-11-10 10:23:14 <gmaxwell> warren: there was a while when the p2pool channel lighting up was filling me with dread. I guess I haven't gotten over that, but thats my malfunction not yours.  Though people are still repeating the warnings away: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=325737.msg3494149#msg3494149
1056 2013-11-10 10:23:15 macboz has joined
1057 2013-11-10 10:23:19 <gmaxwell> :(
1058 2013-11-10 10:24:03 <Anduck> bah
1059 2013-11-10 10:24:28 <Anduck> i ran a p2pool node for a day or two to find out my getblocktemplate delay was to big
1060 2013-11-10 10:24:33 <Anduck> too*
1061 2013-11-10 10:24:43 <gmaxwell> Anduck: huh?
1062 2013-11-10 10:24:51 <gmaxwell> whats "too big"?
1063 2013-11-10 10:24:57 TD has joined
1064 2013-11-10 10:24:59 <Anduck> 0.6 secs i think it was
1065 2013-11-10 10:25:06 <warren> gmaxwell: there is something odd in recent p2pool master.  sometimes python is using 100% CPU for seemingly no reason.
1066 2013-11-10 10:25:09 <Anduck> asked about it and people around said its too muc
1067 2013-11-10 10:25:15 <Anduck> too much to run p2pool node really*'
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1069 2013-11-10 10:25:57 <Anduck> gmaxwell: whats your nodes getblocktemplate delay?
1070 2013-11-10 10:26:31 <warren> Anduck: what version of bitcoin?
1071 2013-11-10 10:26:40 <gmaxwell> Anduck: I'm actually not sure if having a high GBT delay has any direct adverse effect at all, but at least its a general proxy for your system being slow.
1072 2013-11-10 10:26:42 <Anduck> it was 083 or 084
1073 2013-11-10 10:26:56 <Anduck> the drives are slow
1074 2013-11-10 10:27:01 <gmaxwell> Anduck: 0.04 seconds.
1075 2013-11-10 10:27:16 <Anduck> ran it on a 4-core system but HDDs suck
1076 2013-11-10 10:27:26 <Anduck> so i guess it's due to HDDs
1077 2013-11-10 10:27:43 <Polyatomic> fully blown sickeness gmaxwell .
1078 2013-11-10 10:27:52 <gmaxwell> though I have spikes to .25 seconds here and there.
1079 2013-11-10 10:28:06 <Anduck> i had 500-600 ms afair
1080 2013-11-10 10:28:24 <gmaxwell> Anduck: what speed machine, hdd shouldn't have been causing consistent delays, just spikes perhaps.
1081 2013-11-10 10:28:39 <Anduck> what do you mean?
1082 2013-11-10 10:28:43 <sipa> unless low ram & swapping
1083 2013-11-10 10:28:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: good call.
1084 2013-11-10 10:29:01 <Anduck> i had 8 gb ram
1085 2013-11-10 10:29:08 <Anduck> using max 2 gb of it so 6gb free
1086 2013-11-10 10:29:21 <gmaxwell> Anduck: had you changed any of your bitcoin defaults... like changing your relay fees?
1087 2013-11-10 10:29:24 <Anduck> yes
1088 2013-11-10 10:29:38 <gmaxwell> How did you change them.
1089 2013-11-10 10:29:48 <Anduck> hmm i think relay tx fee to smaller.. like 0.0001 or so
1090 2013-11-10 10:29:50 <gmaxwell> Well that would be why.
1091 2013-11-10 10:29:52 <Anduck> why?
1092 2013-11-10 10:30:00 <gmaxwell> GBT time is proportional to the mempool size.
1093 2013-11-10 10:30:05 <Anduck> ohh
1094 2013-11-10 10:30:11 <Anduck> well that makes sense
1095 2013-11-10 10:31:23 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1097 2013-11-10 10:34:05 <warren> gmaxwell: hmm, maybe we should have allocated a portion of that $2,000 to a designer to redo the UI ...
1098 2013-11-10 10:34:54 <warren> I know some talented designers who code that would be perfect for this.
1099 2013-11-10 10:34:55 <Anduck> nah thats not important
1100 2013-11-10 10:35:01 <gmaxwell> I think it is important.
1101 2013-11-10 10:35:03 <Anduck> there are a lot more important things to use money
1102 2013-11-10 10:35:18 <Anduck> bitcoin-qt doesnt need to look super awesome.
1103 2013-11-10 10:35:29 <Anduck> other lighter clients can do that
1104 2013-11-10 10:35:34 <warren> let's see how much forrestv raises in donations ...
1105 2013-11-10 10:35:40 <gmaxwell> But beyond that, I don't know how to make any of these people who won't stop spamming the forum with claims that it doesn't work stop short of bribing them to actually use it.
1106 2013-11-10 10:35:42 <Anduck> i think what should be 100% focused is the protocol itself
1107 2013-11-10 10:36:00 <Anduck> oh you meant p2pool
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1109 2013-11-10 10:36:33 <warren> gmaxwell: p2pool is a lot easier to use when you have it in a data center with unlimited bandwidth, SSD's, lots of RAM ... the average home user can easily get things wrong.
1110 2013-11-10 10:36:58 <Anduck> are the SSDs really that important?
1111 2013-11-10 10:37:38 <warren> Anduck: I've never tested that personally, but that guy who wrote the FUD busting p2pool thread claims so.
1112 2013-11-10 10:37:41 <Alina-malina> Hello all! I am trying to install bitcoind with apt-get on my debian machine, but it gives an error, how can i install it to run in console mode?
1113 2013-11-10 10:39:06 <Anduck> ok
1114 2013-11-10 10:39:29 <gmaxwell> my node shows 1.86kB/s out, 2.62kB/s in.  And yes, you do need a real computer to run it. okay not some kind of crazy ultrafast box. My p2pool node is a ~$600 PC and its overkill. ... but there are miners trying to run this crap on atoms and rpis and indeed it doesn't work well if at all. The whole notion of miners with 100k in mining gear trying to run it on a glorified gameboy is .. broken, but I don't know how to reset that expectation.
1115 2013-11-10 10:40:48 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1116 2013-11-10 10:42:54 <gmaxwell> warren: I'm worried less about "Average home user" because I don't think they're an enormous part of the potential hashrate (though it's good if they're happy too),  I'm more worried about people with $5-$50k in mining gear... which does justify .. you know, a dedicated pc to run the miners .. or two. geesh.  Right now a single KNC jupiter box is bringing in about $120 in BTC per day. I cannot fathom why people with several of these ...
1117 2013-11-10 10:42:59 <warren> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/new/  want to vote up the p2pool post?
1118 2013-11-10 10:43:00 <gmaxwell> ... don't think a dedicated bitcoin node is an unreasonable investment.
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1122 2013-11-10 10:50:03 <warren> gmaxwell: even ordinary pool ops are getting it wrong all the time ...
1123 2013-11-10 10:50:56 <sipa> Alina-malina: what error?
1124 2013-11-10 10:51:01 <sipa> Alina-malina: and what version?
1125 2013-11-10 10:51:47 <sipa> Alina-malina: distro-distributed packages are often out of data
1126 2013-11-10 10:53:29 _ingsoc has joined
1127 2013-11-10 10:54:08 <gmaxwell> warren: I suspect you're spamcanned, I don't see it there.
1128 2013-11-10 10:55:58 <warren> gmaxwell: "Advancement of Decentralized Mining - Vital to Bitcoin Network Security" ?
1129 2013-11-10 10:56:28 <gmaxwell> warren: ah its there, I searched for p2pool and warren. :)
1130 2013-11-10 10:57:27 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: I'm currently looking at how to expand bitcoin support onto my niche OS of choice and may go forward with converting an existing application or two onto it
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1132 2013-11-10 10:58:07 <Alina-malina> sipa, i am trying to install it on debian 7, i think there is some specialy way  to install it, i have not figure it out yet
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1134 2013-11-10 11:01:16 <sipa> Alina-malina: i mean what bitcoin version
1135 2013-11-10 11:01:20 <Alina-malina> sipa, it gives the following error: Unable to allocate bitcoind package
1136 2013-11-10 11:01:20 <sipa> Alina-malina: and what error do you get?
1137 2013-11-10 11:01:26 <Alina-malina> i try to do apt-get install bitcoind
1138 2013-11-10 11:01:28 <sipa> allocate?
1139 2013-11-10 11:01:59 <sipa> i would advise against using distro-provided bitcoin packages
1140 2013-11-10 11:02:33 <Belxjander> Alina-malina: better to pull sources for the bitcoin-qt client and bitcoind and build them yourself
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1148 2013-11-10 11:11:29 <iceTwy> Hola
1149 2013-11-10 11:12:21 <iceTwy> I'm still trying to build Bitcoin with BDB 4.8.30 NC (built it myself), but configure keeps complaining about the version
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1151 2013-11-10 11:12:39 <warren> gmaxwell: heh, someone is voting it down
1152 2013-11-10 11:12:44 <iceTwy> "Found Berkeley DB other than 4.8, required for portable wallets (--with-incompatible-bdb to ignore)"
1153 2013-11-10 11:13:08 rdymac has joined
1154 2013-11-10 11:13:11 <sipa> iceTwy: yes
1155 2013-11-10 11:13:15 <sipa> ah
1156 2013-11-10 11:13:23 <iceTwy> erm
1157 2013-11-10 11:13:29 <iceTwy> my guess is that I should try with BDB 4.8.30
1158 2013-11-10 11:13:33 <iceTwy> and not BDB 4.8.30 NC
1159 2013-11-10 11:13:42 <sipa> meh, unless you really care about your wallet to be comaptible with release binaries, just use 5.1
1160 2013-11-10 11:13:51 * iceTwy shrugs
1161 2013-11-10 11:14:00 <iceTwy> alright
1162 2013-11-10 11:17:21 <Alina-malina> Belxjander, how to do that?
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1173 2013-11-10 11:39:45 <iceTwy> sipa: successsss
1174 2013-11-10 11:39:54 <iceTwy> no more corrupted DB error
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1184 2013-11-10 11:48:32 <sipa> iceTwy: good to hear
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1187 2013-11-10 11:51:07 <iceTwy> sipa: well, it's actually reindexing the whole blockchain
1188 2013-11-10 11:51:17 <iceTwy> since it'll probably be corrupted again I've just deleted the blocks directory
1189 2013-11-10 11:51:25 <iceTwy> will download blocks again. not a problem
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1191 2013-11-10 11:52:07 <sipa> iceTwy: aargh, no
1192 2013-11-10 11:52:11 <sipa> there was no corruption at all
1193 2013-11-10 11:52:23 <sipa> it was a bug that it errorneously detected corruption
1194 2013-11-10 11:52:37 <sipa> and deleting blocks is something you should never do; use -reindex instead
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1197 2013-11-10 11:54:37 <iceTwy> sipa: hmm
1198 2013-11-10 11:54:45 <iceTwy> sipa: at least I'll keep that in mind should it pop up again
1199 2013-11-10 11:54:45 <iceTwy> :/
1200 2013-11-10 11:54:53 <iceTwy> and btw sipa
1201 2013-11-10 11:54:54 <sipa> it shouodn't
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1203 2013-11-10 11:55:29 <iceTwy> right now I'm just setting up bitcoind
1204 2013-11-10 11:55:30 <iceTwy> so yeah
1205 2013-11-10 11:55:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: re: my earlier error throwing node, a pull; make clean; make fixed it... I .. guess?? I had a stale binary.
1206 2013-11-10 11:55:52 <iceTwy> now though
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1208 2013-11-10 11:56:29 <iceTwy> does bitcoin automatically move the blk.dat files to .bitcoin when testnet is disabled?
1209 2013-11-10 11:56:44 <iceTwy> from .bitcoin/testnet3/blocks to .bitcoin/blocks that is
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1214 2013-11-10 11:59:44 <Belxjander> Alina-malina: if you can find the project sources on github and have usage of a "git" tool?
1215 2013-11-10 12:00:08 <sipa> iceTwy: move? no, it just uses a different directory
1216 2013-11-10 12:01:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: let's hope
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1218 2013-11-10 12:02:18 <iceTwy> sipa: but I could move manually the blocks directory
1219 2013-11-10 12:02:22 <iceTwy> when I switch to production
1220 2013-11-10 12:02:25 <iceTwy> hmm?
1221 2013-11-10 12:03:40 <pigeons> iceTwy: testnet blocks and the files are of course totally different, than mainnet and not compatible, different network created them, different transactions, different genesis block, different everything
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1223 2013-11-10 12:04:11 <pigeons> testnet and its blocks and those files are distinct from mainnet
1224 2013-11-10 12:04:26 <iceTwy> agh
1225 2013-11-10 12:05:56 <gmaxwell> tcatm: People in #bitcoin are complaining about bitcoin charts.
1226 2013-11-10 12:07:52 <SomeoneWeird> he's gawn
1227 2013-11-10 12:07:58 ralphtheninja has joined
1228 2013-11-10 12:08:39 <gmaxwell> I believe tcatm is all seeing.
1229 2013-11-10 12:09:48 gritball has joined
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1231 2013-11-10 12:11:26 <Alina-malina> Belxjander, do you know what is the link to github and what git tool are we talking about? I never used github tools, i can only download source code from github, but no i never used git tools
1232 2013-11-10 12:11:31 Polyatomic has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1233 2013-11-10 12:13:17 <iceTwy> I'm running into an odd problem though
1234 2013-11-10 12:13:39 <iceTwy> the blockchain download gets stuck
1235 2013-11-10 12:15:53 <sipa> iceTwy: just wait
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1237 2013-11-10 12:16:16 <sipa> iceTwy: connecting to a single good peer helps, as does using the bootstrap.dat torrent
1238 2013-11-10 12:16:32 <sipa> using -connect=ip, for the first
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1244 2013-11-10 12:37:00 <iceTwy> sipa: yeah, but it's literally downloaded 1 block in 35 mins
1245 2013-11-10 12:37:06 <iceTwy> 129007 => 129008
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1252 2013-11-10 12:56:11 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
1253 2013-11-10 12:58:57 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
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1274 2013-11-10 13:23:03 <dobry-den> that's in blk00001.dat
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1286 2013-11-10 13:26:17 <sipa> iceTwy: the download mechanism is ugly, and gets confused frequently
1287 2013-11-10 13:26:37 <sipa> it will normally continue after a while, in particular when new blocks are announced
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1290 2013-11-10 13:29:12 <iceTwy> sipa: yeah
1291 2013-11-10 13:29:21 <iceTwy> well I've downloaded bootstrap.dat from the torrent
1292 2013-11-10 13:29:28 <iceTwy> it's currently checking
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1298 2013-11-10 13:41:21 <dobry-den> Recently someone mentioned an idiosyncrasy with scripts but for some reason i can't grep it in my logs.
1299 2013-11-10 13:41:32 <dobry-den> with one of the OP_ commands
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1313 2013-11-10 13:53:11 <sipa> dobry-den: that you can do if then else else endif?
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1323 2013-11-10 14:04:44 <iceTwy> still weird tho
1324 2013-11-10 14:04:55 <iceTwy> the first 200k blocks load just fine from bootstrap.dat
1325 2013-11-10 14:05:02 <iceTwy> the rest as slow as hell to load/verify
1326 2013-11-10 14:05:17 <iceTwy> 15 mins to verify 8k blocks from 230k to 238k
1327 2013-11-10 14:05:32 <Diablo-D3> thats kinda normal
1328 2013-11-10 14:05:35 <sipa> smaller blocks go much faster
1329 2013-11-10 14:05:36 <Diablo-D3> sdice kicks in around that point
1330 2013-11-10 14:05:45 <iceTwy> oh god
1331 2013-11-10 14:05:46 <iceTwy> sdice
1332 2013-11-10 14:06:00 <Diablo-D3> did the sdice guy get run over by a car or something?
1333 2013-11-10 14:06:11 <sipa> the progress bar shows relative number of transactions processed
1334 2013-11-10 14:06:15 <sipa> rather than blocks
1335 2013-11-10 14:06:20 <sipa> so it's much more accurate
1336 2013-11-10 14:06:51 <sipa> it also takes into account after the last checkpoint, signature checks are disabled, so they become much more expensive to process
1337 2013-11-10 14:07:21 <sipa> oh, and running with -dbcache=N, with N a number in megabytes, helps a lot for reimdex performance
1338 2013-11-10 14:08:43 reizuki__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1339 2013-11-10 14:11:51 <MC1984> sdice stopped right
1340 2013-11-10 14:12:03 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1341 2013-11-10 14:12:03 <MC1984> with their blockchain messaging bullshit
1342 2013-11-10 14:12:15 <MC1984> or did dice lcones just take over
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1356 2013-11-10 14:25:35 <MC1984> well theres my answer
1357 2013-11-10 14:25:48 <MC1984> some shit called luckybit ill assume is a gambling  service
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1361 2013-11-10 14:34:13 <swulf--> gmaxwell: ms-brainwallet.github.io now has compressed public keys + pubkey from redemption script extracting. These two things were pre-reqs to supporting BIP32. I've spent the past few hours understanding BIP32 and it seems to make sense. Though, I have a few open questions still.
1362 2013-11-10 14:36:00 pe3z has joined
1363 2013-11-10 14:37:08 <sipa> swulf--: shoot
1364 2013-11-10 14:37:58 <swulf--> ok
1365 2013-11-10 14:38:25 <swulf--> Well, BIP32 defines a tree of addresses, but really, the size and shape of the tree is kind of undefined and mostly depends on the application, right?
1366 2013-11-10 14:38:33 <sipa> yes
1367 2013-11-10 14:38:41 <sipa> there is a suggested tree structure though
1368 2013-11-10 14:38:44 <swulf--> right
1369 2013-11-10 14:38:48 <sipa> but i expect some application to deviate from it
1370 2013-11-10 14:38:52 <sipa> *applications
1371 2013-11-10 14:38:53 <swulf--> So for an application like mine, I can't see needing to be more than one or two levels deep
1372 2013-11-10 14:39:22 <sipa> i'd suggest just using defaults and trying to be compatible with the default structure
1373 2013-11-10 14:39:49 <sipa> even if you don't need different accounts (always use account 0), or don't have a distinction between internal and external address (only use external ones)
1374 2013-11-10 14:40:04 <swulf--> well, that was my next question :P
1375 2013-11-10 14:40:13 <swulf--> I've no need for internal addresses
1376 2013-11-10 14:40:21 <sipa> thne don't have any :)
1377 2013-11-10 14:40:43 <swulf--> so you recommend sticking with a tree of depth 3, and just using chain 0 all the way down/
1378 2013-11-10 14:40:48 <sipa> yes
1379 2013-11-10 14:40:53 <swulf--> works for me
1380 2013-11-10 14:41:03 thelorax123 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1381 2013-11-10 14:43:03 <swulf--> Bah. BitcoinJS doesn't have SHA-512.
1382 2013-11-10 14:43:20 <sipa> there are enough javascript sha-512 implementations afaik
1383 2013-11-10 14:43:28 <swulf--> yeah, I have one I use regularly
1384 2013-11-10 14:43:36 <swulf--> It'd have been nicer if it was already there, though
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1419 2013-11-10 15:45:03 <Evilmax> what i need to read database/log.2546532 file in the bitcoin-qt client folder?
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1423 2013-11-10 15:50:12 <sipa> Evilmax: don't
1424 2013-11-10 15:50:45 <sipa> it's a bdb transaction.log file; only bdb cares about ir
1425 2013-11-10 15:51:12 <Belxjander> maybe a dumb question...
1426 2013-11-10 15:51:38 reizuki__ has joined
1427 2013-11-10 15:51:40 <iceTwy> the big moment's cominggggg
1428 2013-11-10 15:51:42 <Belxjander> but importation of one Wallets private keys... would it be possible to merge them or do they replace an existing wallet keyset on import ?
1429 2013-11-10 15:51:49 <iceTwy> 268207/268858...
1430 2013-11-10 15:51:56 <Belxjander> if I have 2 private wallet keysets...
1431 2013-11-10 15:52:09 <Belxjander> can I "chain" the 2nd wallet to the first ?
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1437 2013-11-10 15:58:26 <iceTwy> done! blockchain DL'd
1438 2013-11-10 15:58:41 <iceTwy> no errors? :D
1439 2013-11-10 15:58:57 <iceTwy> awww yiss
1440 2013-11-10 16:00:07 saulimus has joined
1441 2013-11-10 16:00:53 <swulf--> sipa: quick question about (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2829/files) - in the empty edge case of CBase58Data().ToString(), doesn't the result change between your revisions?
1442 2013-11-10 16:01:09 <swulf--> It probably doesn't matter, though ;)
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1445 2013-11-10 16:04:38 <hno> Belxjander, I don't think you can merge two wallets, but yout can export all private keys of one and import those to the other by using the CLI. But generally easier to just send over all the BTC.
1446 2013-11-10 16:05:23 <Belxjander> hno: importation of the keys wonZ't send the client tool cerazy then?
1447 2013-11-10 16:05:36 <sipa> git head has a dumpwallet and importwallet command
1448 2013-11-10 16:05:47 <sipa> you can use those two merge two wallets
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1450 2013-11-10 16:05:55 <Belxjander> because I am currently using an Android wallet and would be wanting to "merge" two seperate devices wallets onto one device
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1457 2013-11-10 16:10:29 <Belxjander> sipa thanks for the info anyway
1458 2013-11-10 16:10:33 <iceTwy> sipa: successssssssssssssssssss
1459 2013-11-10 16:10:47 <Belxjander> sipa: I'll consider the problem as I am going to work out essentials to write my own Wallet program
1460 2013-11-10 16:11:17 <Belxjander> sipa: and may just write it to handle an arbitrary number of Wallet files seperately
1461 2013-11-10 16:11:37 <iceTwy> coinpunk is up and running
1462 2013-11-10 16:11:37 <iceTwy> :D
1463 2013-11-10 16:13:11 <hno> Belxjander, import of keys do not make the client crazy. But it takes a while as it needs to rescan the blockchain.
1464 2013-11-10 16:13:48 <Belxjander> hno: ahhh well THAT is a definite consideration as well
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1466 2013-11-10 16:15:23 <hno> Belxjander, well, it's some minures at worst.
1467 2013-11-10 16:15:37 <hno> minutes
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1473 2013-11-10 16:24:57 ds is now known as away!ds@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-kqsgikodvlabxlrd|dongshengcn
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1481 2013-11-10 16:32:07 <Evilmax> how can i delete an account from qt client?
1482 2013-11-10 16:32:16 <Evilmax> a wallet
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1536 2013-11-10 17:22:28 <iceTwy> weird
1537 2013-11-10 17:22:38 <iceTwy> I can't register an user account on Coinpunk
1538 2013-11-10 17:22:44 <iceTwy> yet node doesn't throw any error
1539 2013-11-10 17:23:05 <iceTwy> ah
1540 2013-11-10 17:23:07 <iceTwy> can't open database file wallet.dat
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1565 2013-11-10 17:52:17 <iceTwy> any coinpunk dev here?
1566 2013-11-10 17:52:42 <iceTwy> user account registrations freeze at creating the account
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1573 2013-11-10 17:57:57 <iceTwy> right. that's due to nginx
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1603 2013-11-10 18:31:35 <Luke-Jr> any objections to merging verifymessage support for MtGox signatures?
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1622 2013-11-10 19:07:33 <dobry-den> i'm having trouble grokking "byte vectors" described on the Script wiki. (little-endian integers where MSB describes sign).
1623 2013-11-10 19:08:07 <dobry-den> can anyone describe how 0x81 becomes -1 and 0x80 becomes -0?
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1625 2013-11-10 19:09:47 <Luke-Jr> seems straightforward to me?
1626 2013-11-10 19:10:04 <maaku> dobry-den: one's complement, not two's complement
1627 2013-11-10 19:10:07 <Luke-Jr> 0x81 is 0b10000001
1628 2013-11-10 19:10:32 <maaku> 0x80 is the sign bit
1629 2013-11-10 19:10:51 <maaku> & 0x7f gives you the magnitude
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1633 2013-11-10 19:12:19 <dobry-den> thanks, i'll check out this one's complement wiki page
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1638 2013-11-10 19:18:44 <sipa> it'd just a separate sign bit i think, not 1's complement
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1640 2013-11-10 19:19:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Are transactions in a block validated sequentially, or as a whole?
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1642 2013-11-10 19:20:11 <dobry-den> michagogo|cloud: txns can refer to earlier txns in the same blk
1643 2013-11-10 19:20:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|in other words, say a miner mines a chain of transactions that depend on each other
1644 2013-11-10 19:20:41 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
1645 2013-11-10 19:20:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Do the parent transactions need to appear in the block negate the child transactions?
1646 2013-11-10 19:21:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Negate? Before.
1647 2013-11-10 19:21:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Idk how autocorrect got that wrong
1648 2013-11-10 19:22:03 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: yes, blocks order transactions
1649 2013-11-10 19:22:08 <sipa> that's their primary purpose :)
1650 2013-11-10 19:22:20 arioBarzan has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1651 2013-11-10 19:22:29 <sipa> so yes, dependent transactions within a block must appear earlier
1652 2013-11-10 19:22:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|21:19:25 <sipa> that's their primary purpose :)
1653 2013-11-10 19:23:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, order within a block could easily be arbitrary
1654 2013-11-10 19:23:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Since a block that contains a double-spend is simply invalid
1655 2013-11-10 19:23:42 <sipa> it'd mean forcing validators to do dependency analysis in order to validate it
1656 2013-11-10 19:24:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, I guess it's simpler to just block.transactions.each do; validate; end
1657 2013-11-10 19:25:07 <sipa> it's not that easy either; if there is a problem in any of the transactions, the whole block's effect must be undone
1658 2013-11-10 19:25:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/validate/|x|validate(x)/
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1660 2013-11-10 19:25:38 <sipa> so it's pretty much "the whole block at once", but within that block, you can only refer to previous transactions
1661 2013-11-10 19:25:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right, makes sense
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1663 2013-11-10 19:27:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I was just saying that your comment of "blocks order transactions, that's their primary purpose" doesn't necessarily explain it
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1665 2013-11-10 19:27:36 <sipa> right, fair enough
1666 2013-11-10 19:28:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Since they order transactions on a block level -- it's reasonable to think that perhaps it may be arbitrary
1667 2013-11-10 19:28:58 <sipa> on the other hand, creation of a block happens only once, validation probably 1000s of times
1668 2013-11-10 19:29:14 <sipa> it makes sense to spend a tiny bit of extra effort on creation, in order to simplify validation
1669 2013-11-10 19:29:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right -- any step that speeds val-
1670 2013-11-10 19:29:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right
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1674 2013-11-10 19:31:44 <Cylta> can I send coins from a wallet if it's not completely synchronised? (it does see coins. and there are nothing going in\out in that not loaded blocks)
1675 2013-11-10 19:32:58 Eiii has joined
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1679 2013-11-10 19:37:13 <dobry-den> Why is 1s complement used for script constants?
1680 2013-11-10 19:37:35 <sipa> ask satoshi
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1688 2013-11-10 19:44:57 <dobry-den> that rascal
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1692 2013-11-10 19:47:08 <ahmedbodi> jgarzik: is it possible for me to get a copy of an example config file for poold.py?
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1702 2013-11-10 20:00:06 <glitch003> Is it okay to encrypt a litecoin private key with BIP0038?
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1704 2013-11-10 20:00:43 <Luke-Jr> glitch003: nobody's going to stop you, but it might cause confusion so probably best if you don't
1705 2013-11-10 20:01:03 gest has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1706 2013-11-10 20:01:34 <Luke-Jr> you might pay special attention to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0038#Suggestions_for_implementers_of_proposal_with_alt-chains
1707 2013-11-10 20:01:34 thelorax123 has joined
1708 2013-11-10 20:01:59 <glitch003> Hmm.  Do you think it would be okay if it's on a paper wallet with the litecoin logo so that people know it's litecoin and not a bitcoin key?
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1710 2013-11-10 20:03:49 <Luke-Jr> glitch003: I think scamcoins should at least put the effort into unique encodings.
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1712 2013-11-10 20:06:48 <glitch003> I agree with you, but I sell a paper wallet printer that supports litecoin and BIP0038 so I just wanted to make sure it was safe and stuff.
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1751 2013-11-10 20:34:11 <warren> gmaxwell: oh damn.  there's a lot of denial out there about the danger of centralized pools.
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1759 2013-11-10 20:43:18 <iceTwy> warren: there is, heh
1760 2013-11-10 20:43:25 <MC1984_> what does the guy who runs bc.i go by on here?
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1855 2013-11-10 22:10:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|MC1984_: Well, the nick piuk is registered
1856 2013-11-10 22:10:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If I had to guess...
1857 2013-11-10 22:10:25 randolph` has left ()
1858 2013-11-10 22:10:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|08:17:11 <phantomcircuit> lol
1859 2013-11-10 22:10:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|08:17:12 <phantomcircuit>         reason = "mucho-data";
1860 2013-11-10 22:10:37 <MC1984_> !seen piuk
1861 2013-11-10 22:10:38 <gribble> piuk was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 34 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 6 minutes, and 1 second ago: <piuk> why?
1862 2013-11-10 22:10:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Lol, I saw that in the PR, with a couple line notes
1863 2013-11-10 22:10:46 <MC1984_> fat lot of good
1864 2013-11-10 22:10:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That actually made it in?
1865 2013-11-10 22:11:47 australopithicus has joined
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1870 2013-11-10 22:15:34 <australopithicus> I'm trying to build a web app that needs to add a users email to a local my sql database if and only if the users payment goes through. What is the best way to do this?
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1874 2013-11-10 22:17:07 <edcba> using some rpc of bitcoind ?
1875 2013-11-10 22:18:11 Ferroh has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1879 2013-11-10 22:20:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|austrawalletnotify?
1880 2013-11-10 22:20:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gah, quit...
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1928 2013-11-10 23:07:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, I've got 36 connections to my node
1929 2013-11-10 23:08:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|In ~3 hours
1930 2013-11-10 23:08:56 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|finds that unusual
1931 2013-11-10 23:10:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, I just discovered the startup time field
1932 2013-11-10 23:10:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(As I closed the debug.log after finding the time)
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1949 2013-11-10 23:28:42 * grn_home pokes again for the secret hideout of the blockchain.info/wallet admins
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1951 2013-11-10 23:31:03 <Anduck> hmm
1952 2013-11-10 23:31:10 <grn_home> I've got a documented, reproduceable bug.  Not sure if it has security implications.
1953 2013-11-10 23:31:27 <Anduck> how do you people handle bitcoin deposits, for example run a bitcoin site which has accounts in its own database
1954 2013-11-10 23:32:05 <Anduck> how do you give them deposit addresses (monitor for the old deposit addresses, too) without using bitcoin "accounts" system
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1958 2013-11-10 23:33:52 <Anduck> if someone can link me to somewhere where someone has explaing things about this, i'd appreciate it
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1961 2013-11-10 23:35:43 <MC1984> !seen piuk
1962 2013-11-10 23:35:44 <gribble> piuk was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 34 weeks, 5 days, 22 hours, 31 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <piuk> why?
1963 2013-11-10 23:35:48 <grn_home> I'd assume most sites maintain a common hotwallet, and a non-bitcoin accounting db of what each user's BTC balance is.
1964 2013-11-10 23:35:48 <MC1984> thats him grn_home
1965 2013-11-10 23:36:03 <grn_home> lol
1966 2013-11-10 23:36:09 * Luke-Jr wishes master wasn't full of warnings all over
1967 2013-11-10 23:36:16 thelorax1231 has joined
1968 2013-11-10 23:36:22 <Anduck> yeah grn_home..
1969 2013-11-10 23:36:54 <grn_home> I opened a ticket, but I was hoping to track down someone who isn't front line "I forgot my password again!" support....
1970 2013-11-10 23:38:04 <MC1984> the site itself doesnt seem to be doing much new these days anyway
1971 2013-11-10 23:38:08 <MC1984> maybe he got bored of it
1972 2013-11-10 23:38:21 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
1973 2013-11-10 23:38:39 <grn_home> http://www.grnbrg.org/blockchain-problem.html
1974 2013-11-10 23:38:41 rethaw has joined
1975 2013-11-10 23:39:06 <grn_home> 1 signature, 1 message, 2 signing addresses.  (Depending on where you verify them.)
1976 2013-11-10 23:41:04 <MC1984> i got a fix
1977 2013-11-10 23:41:07 <MC1984> dont use web wallets
1978 2013-11-10 23:41:37 <grn_home> I don't.  But I'm getting lots of people sending me signatures made there.
1979 2013-11-10 23:41:51 <MC1984> i didnt even know they did that
1980 2013-11-10 23:41:58 <MC1984> why not just do it in bitcoin qt
1981 2013-11-10 23:42:24 <grn_home> Besides downloading the huge blockchain?  :)
1982 2013-11-10 23:42:38 gjj has joined
1983 2013-11-10 23:42:59 <MC1984> yeah thats so terrible
1984 2013-11-10 23:43:00 gjj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1985 2013-11-10 23:43:23 <MC1984> meanwhile people download 20gb games from steam and dont raise a hair about it4
1986 2013-11-10 23:43:23 <grn_home> Seems to happen for larger messages -- smaller ones sign correctly.
1987 2013-11-10 23:43:26 gjj_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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1989 2013-11-10 23:44:39 <grn_home> Although, for the record, having view-only addresses through them is nice.  SMS alerts for spends and deposits.
1990 2013-11-10 23:45:58 ds is now known as away!ds@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-kqsgikodvlabxlrd|dongshengcn
1991 2013-11-10 23:48:23 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1993 2013-11-10 23:49:24 <midnightmagic> Or 10GB games on a PS3 which typically only has a 120GB hdd..
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