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  10 2013-11-11 00:19:08 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: I fixed the struct/class mismatch warnings and pushed to master
  11 2013-11-11 00:20:32 <dobry-den> oh, script encodes numbers with OpenSSL's BN_bn2mpi
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  23 2013-11-11 00:40:18 <dobry-den> did openssl make up "mpi encoding"?
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  25 2013-11-11 00:42:02 <sipa> i don't think so
  26 2013-11-11 00:42:23 <sipa> maybe it comes from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_Passing_Interface
  27 2013-11-11 00:44:36 <dobry-den> thanks. i wouldve never found that
  28 2013-11-11 00:44:59 <sipa> ;;google MPI
  29 2013-11-11 00:45:00 <gribble> Meeting Professionals International: <http://www.mpiweb.org/>; Message Passing Interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_Passing_Interface>; Open MPI: Open Source High Performance Computing: <http://www.open-mpi.org/>
  30 2013-11-11 00:45:17 dongshengcn is now known as ds|away
  31 2013-11-11 00:45:37 <dobry-den> i was all up in 'mpi encoding' and derivatives because surely 'mpi' would be too broad
  32 2013-11-11 00:45:39 <dobry-den> damn
  33 2013-11-11 00:46:57 <dobry-den> i had to look at how bitcoinj handling numbers in its script code to arrive here
  34 2013-11-11 00:49:30 <BlueMatt> heh, writing that was...fun...or something
  35 2013-11-11 00:49:57 <dobry-den> BlueMatt: that's your project?
  36 2013-11-11 00:50:18 <BlueMatt> no, but i wrote that particular code
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  39 2013-11-11 00:54:20 * BlueMatt goes back to fixing that particular code
  40 2013-11-11 00:54:34 <dobry-den> what was the solution before it?
  41 2013-11-11 00:54:44 <dobry-den> i unfortunately have to borrow that code
  42 2013-11-11 00:54:54 <BlueMatt> before it, bitcoinj didnt implement full script execution
  43 2013-11-11 00:55:24 <BlueMatt> its oss for a reason
  44 2013-11-11 00:55:34 <BlueMatt> though you're probably better off not copy/pasting but depending on it
  45 2013-11-11 00:56:07 <BlueMatt> considering tiny bugs could be very dangerous
  46 2013-11-11 00:56:18 eoss has joined
  47 2013-11-11 00:57:31 <dobry-den> it's pretty nebulous
  48 2013-11-11 01:00:04 skez has joined
  49 2013-11-11 01:00:19 <dobry-den> not referring to your code, but what mpi is, even reading this wiki. could JNI be a solution?
  50 2013-11-11 01:00:26 <dobry-den> ive never used it before
  51 2013-11-11 01:00:36 <BlueMatt> what are you actually trying to do?
  52 2013-11-11 01:02:02 <dobry-den> i dont understand how numbers are encoded/decoded in scripts
  53 2013-11-11 01:02:12 <BlueMatt> if you're talking about just the mpi stuff, thats not too complicated, Im pretty sure its pretty reliable
  54 2013-11-11 01:02:20 <sipa> dobry-den: sign bit + data
  55 2013-11-11 01:02:26 ahmedbodi has quit (Excess Flood)
  56 2013-11-11 01:02:37 <sipa> the highest bit of the first pushed byte is the size (0: positive, 1: negative)
  57 2013-11-11 01:02:45 <sipa> the rest of the bits encode the data
  58 2013-11-11 01:03:25 <sipa> eh
  59 2013-11-11 01:03:27 <sipa> s/size/sign/
  60 2013-11-11 01:03:30 <dobry-den> then what's mpi for
  61 2013-11-11 01:03:46 <sipa> that's how MPI encoding works, apparently
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  64 2013-11-11 01:04:07 <sipa> oh, but bitcoin does it little-endian, instead of big-endian
  65 2013-11-11 01:04:10 <sipa> don't ask me why
  66 2013-11-11 01:04:25 <BlueMatt> huh?
  67 2013-11-11 01:04:28 <BlueMatt> are you sure about that?
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  69 2013-11-11 01:04:53 <sipa> i'm looking at the code, which says "swap data to big endian", before calling MPI
  70 2013-11-11 01:05:08 <dobry-den> BlueMatt: bitcoinj itself has that reverseBytes incantation before every encodeMPI
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  73 2013-11-11 01:06:50 <BlueMatt> ahh, yes
  74 2013-11-11 01:07:17 <sipa> also, MPI uses a 4-byte length prefix
  75 2013-11-11 01:07:34 <sipa> while bitcoin uses its weird mix of push operators to denote size
  76 2013-11-11 01:07:54 <BlueMatt> bitcoin scripts are quite a mix of different encodings
  77 2013-11-11 01:07:59 <sipa> yeah..
  78 2013-11-11 01:08:05 <BlueMatt> well, all of bitcoin
  79 2013-11-11 01:08:06 <dobry-den> yeah
  80 2013-11-11 01:08:18 <dobry-den> fortunately i figured out der
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  82 2013-11-11 01:08:42 <dobry-den> well, enough other noobs on stackoverflow
  83 2013-11-11 01:08:45 <sipa> it's not that bad... it's really little endian everywhere, and all crypto stuff is consider as byte arrays (which internally may use big endian)
  84 2013-11-11 01:08:51 OneFixt has joined
  85 2013-11-11 01:09:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: its not that bad, until you're reimplementing ig...
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  87 2013-11-11 01:09:15 <BlueMatt> dobry-den: thats what you think
  88 2013-11-11 01:09:27 <BlueMatt> but with bitcoin, you have to use openssl's specific der en/decoding
  89 2013-11-11 01:09:34 <sipa> which leads to weird things like sha256 being applied to the block header, the result being encoded as little endian in a 32-byte arrays, which then gets interpreted as little-endian 256-bit number
  90 2013-11-11 01:09:39 deepc0re has quit (Quit: deepc0re)
  91 2013-11-11 01:09:44 <BlueMatt> which accepts some marginally invalid things
  92 2013-11-11 01:09:46 ahmedbodi is now known as zz_ahmedbodi
  93 2013-11-11 01:09:48 <BlueMatt> and rejects others
  94 2013-11-11 01:09:48 <sipa> eh, encoded as big-endian in 32-byte arrays
  95 2013-11-11 01:09:59 <sipa> quite some invalid things, really
  96 2013-11-11 01:10:05 <sipa> you can just put junk inside
  97 2013-11-11 01:10:10 <sipa> or use negative numbers
  98 2013-11-11 01:10:27 <BlueMatt> well, ok, yes
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 101 2013-11-11 01:13:23 <dobry-den> this is the final prong of my rough implementation
 102 2013-11-11 01:14:54 <BlueMatt> what are you doing with this implementation?
 103 2013-11-11 01:15:11 <dobry-den> having fun
 104 2013-11-11 01:15:55 <dobry-den> id like to polish it over time, but ive started experimenting with people's ideas
 105 2013-11-11 01:15:56 <BlueMatt> ok, as long as you're not building an exchange on a barely-tested implementation :p
 106 2013-11-11 01:16:35 <BlueMatt> (there's far too much of that already...)
 107 2013-11-11 01:16:47 <dobry-den> at the very least, ive stolen every test suite i could find
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 125 2013-11-11 01:48:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|grn_home: That thing with some clients signing in a way that doesn't match other clients (or the reference implementation) rings a bell
 126 2013-11-11 01:48:57 SwampTony has joined
 127 2013-11-11 01:48:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't remember the details, but there *was* something
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 132 2013-11-11 01:54:50 <grn_home> michagogo|cloud - Here's my sample...  http://www.grnbrg.org/blockchain-problem.html
 133 2013-11-11 01:55:06 <grn_home> Very strange.
 134 2013-11-11 01:55:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|already saw that
 135 2013-11-11 01:55:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I can't remember, though, what was causing it :-/
 136 2013-11-11 01:55:25 imton has joined
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 138 2013-11-11 01:56:09 <grn_home> I see.  Weird that it should produce a signature that verifies with a different address on other clients, though.
 139 2013-11-11 01:57:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|grn_home: Not particularly
 140 2013-11-11 01:57:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Something about the way ecdsa sigs work
 141 2013-11-11 01:58:49 <grn_home> Yeah, I suppose.  Multiple solutions to the same problem.
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 143 2013-11-11 02:01:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I wish I could remember the details :-/
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 166 2013-11-11 02:43:29 <hanihani> im building a small exchange and I was looking into using Armory's cold storage and hot wallet. Im developing in Java also. I know Armory uses bitcoind and I have used it quite a bit before. What I am trying to figure out is how I can build my webapp around armory, that is, how I can communicate with it. It dosent seem to have a daemon :P
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 171 2013-11-11 02:53:24 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm testing and reviewing the externalip patch, adding debug prints everywhere to make sure it's DTRT.  Where in the code does the bitcoind handle the receiving end of AdvertizeLocalNode()?
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 186 2013-11-11 03:23:26 <dobry-den> finally figured out mpi
 187 2013-11-11 03:24:11 <dobry-den> will definitely devote tomorrow working on a fun aspect of the project
 188 2013-11-11 03:24:13 <dobry-den> encoding isnt
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 237 2013-11-11 04:43:27 <lachesis> can i build with libdb 5 instead of 4.8?
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 240 2013-11-11 04:43:55 <BlueMatt> yes, but wallets touched by that build will no longer open on other 4.8-based builds
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 268 2013-11-11 05:23:55 <lachesis> what am i doing wrong here?
 269 2013-11-11 05:23:58 <lachesis> checking whether the Boost::System library is available... yes
 270 2013-11-11 05:23:58 <lachesis> configure: error: Could not find a version of the library!
 271 2013-11-11 05:25:02 <warren> toffoo: downloading from that server you uploaded the blockchain is taking me 16 hours =)
 272 2013-11-11 05:29:29 <lianj> warren: a bootstrap file?
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 275 2013-11-11 05:31:01 <warren> lianj: toffoo's personal blockchain that he has been using since 0.3.x works with 0.7.2 but corrupts after imported into 0.8.x, clean shutdown, and restart.
 276 2013-11-11 05:31:23 <lianj> ah k
 277 2013-11-11 05:31:39 <warren> lianj: we still have corruption complaints on macos x after the three leveldb-related commits, so looking into this one
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 279 2013-11-11 05:40:30 <imton> sipa: hey, I am trying for first time your "addr index" fork over the real bitcoin network and it is really slow. I know you don't love this fork, but there is a use case I still need it.
 280 2013-11-11 05:41:29 <imton> sipa: I'd love to understand why the index is so slow, is it because leveldb is not prepared for such a big index or is it because as you implemented "addr index" is not optimized?
 281 2013-11-11 05:42:06 <imton> sipa: fyi it is taking me more than 20 seconds to look up for an address' transactions
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 283 2013-11-11 05:43:42 <gmaxwell> imton: you've given basically no information there. 20 seconds is completely reasonable if you've queried an address inovolved in tens of thousans of transactions and you're on a slow system without a ssd (or worse, on EC2)
 284 2013-11-11 05:45:46 <imton> gmaxwell: good, thanks. I'd like to ask for help/ideas about how could I archive a kind of blockchain.info performance with sipa's 'addr index' fork.
 285 2013-11-11 05:46:26 <imton> gmaxwell: where should i start optimizing? is it leveldb ? should I use another db for the index? is only about the hardware?
 286 2013-11-11 05:47:02 <gmaxwell> You're continuing to give no information.
 287 2013-11-11 05:47:17 <imton> gmaxwell: i imagine that with a cache layer only strategy i won't be able to archive blockchain.info almost realtime knowledge of address txs
 288 2013-11-11 05:47:43 <imton> gmaxwell: sorry, which info would you like to know?
 289 2013-11-11 05:48:17 <gmaxwell> What sorts of addresses are you seeing 20 second performance on? how many results are they returning? What hardware are you running on (memory, cpu, disk type, OS?)
 290 2013-11-11 05:50:20 <imton> gmaxwell: well, I was testing on testnet and it was working almost realtime, and when I switched to real network I started testing with "1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa" address, If I am not wrong it is the first used address. It has around 850 txs
 291 2013-11-11 05:50:49 <imton> I am testing in a Ubuntu Azure instance (like ec2) , 1.7gb ram and 2 cores.
 292 2013-11-11 05:52:51 Polyatomic has joined
 293 2013-11-11 05:53:13 <imton> gmaxwell: sorry, 1 core. Yeah, it's small. But that's exactly what I'd like to know, where do I start optimizing? it's just a matter of hardware resources? or is it that sipa's implementation is not optimized for full blockchain search like blockchain.info?
 294 2013-11-11 05:54:57 <gmaxwell> imton: I dunno about about "Ubuntu Azure instance" but a lot of VPS services have _astonishingly_ slow IO. So yes thats your problem.
 295 2013-11-11 05:55:41 <warren> I'm guessing blockchain.info has more than a tiny VM of hardware.
 296 2013-11-11 05:55:41 <gmaxwell> (or at least very likely your problem)
 297 2013-11-11 05:56:17 <gmaxwell> warren: a different design that used hundreds of gigs of additional storage could be faster.
 298 2013-11-11 05:56:33 <gmaxwell> (even on limited hardware)
 299 2013-11-11 05:57:20 <imton> gmaxwell: what do you mean with "a different design" , could you elaborate that?
 300 2013-11-11 05:58:48 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 301 2013-11-11 06:02:25 <gmaxwell> imton: one that duplicated all the data many times, instead of having to go gather it scattered from the blockchain. I don't believe we'd ever consider shipping that in any case. If you want that, you should build it externally to bitcoin.
 302 2013-11-11 06:03:43 deego` has joined
 303 2013-11-11 06:04:54 <firepacket> does anyone know if its possible to get rid of the -blocknotify DOS window that comes up on windows?
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 306 2013-11-11 06:06:02 <imton> gmaxwell: great, really need this so I think I should start studying bitcoin-qt code. do you think sipas 'addr index' brach is a good start?
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 349 2013-11-11 07:09:05 <midnightmagic> uh. when getrawtransaction doesn't have any information about a txid, what other mechanism might there be to retrieve the raw tx itself?
 350 2013-11-11 07:09:28 <midnightmagic> (gettransaction seems to work just fine)
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 352 2013-11-11 07:09:49 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, iirc getrawtransaction doesn't try to look in the wallet
 353 2013-11-11 07:10:03 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, you could also rig it to do a bruteforce search of all the blocks
 354 2013-11-11 07:10:06 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: It's a broadcast, accepted, and confirmed tx..
 355 2013-11-11 07:10:17 <midnightmagic> gettransaction even tells me the block it lives in
 356 2013-11-11 07:10:18 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, running with -txindex=1 ?
 357 2013-11-11 07:10:32 <midnightmagic> no. should I?
 358 2013-11-11 07:11:00 <midnightmagic> ah. I should.
 359 2013-11-11 07:11:03 * midnightmagic re-runs.
 360 2013-11-11 07:12:19 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: You wouldn't happen to know how long a -reindex takes do you?
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 363 2013-11-11 07:15:17 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, ages
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 365 2013-11-11 07:15:53 <midnightmagic> doh
 366 2013-11-11 07:16:22 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, you're basically doing initial block sync except without having the round trip times to the network
 367 2013-11-11 07:17:00 <midnightmagic> oh that's not too bad. I have a fast lots of ram + ssd machine that eats up an initial sync
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 417 2013-11-11 07:57:11 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #442: ABORTED in 7 hr 34 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/442/
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 422 2013-11-11 07:59:10 <BlueMatt> moving jenkins on the new scripts to "beta" status and going to bed...
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 470 2013-11-11 09:01:58 <imton> guys, getrawtransaction is not working for the very first tx
 471 2013-11-11 09:02:04 <imton> i know sipa is aware of it because he commented here back in april http://goo.gl/r1pn2Z
 472 2013-11-11 09:02:14 <imton> should i open an issue?
 473 2013-11-11 09:02:42 <phantomcircuit> im honestly not sure anybody is going to care enough to fix it unless you submit a patch
 474 2013-11-11 09:02:45 <phantomcircuit> imton, ^
 475 2013-11-11 09:03:43 <imton> phantomcircuit: I do not master c++, I could do it but... it would be a shame :p
 476 2013-11-11 09:04:04 <phantomcircuit> shrug
 477 2013-11-11 09:04:16 <phantomcircuit> if you make an attempt maybe someone will just fix it up
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 479 2013-11-11 09:04:48 <gmaxwell> imton: it is not an issue.
 480 2013-11-11 09:05:01 <lianj> its unspendable anyway
 481 2013-11-11 09:05:02 <imton> should this be hardcoded? because according to sipa's comment he says that the 1st block is not valid
 482 2013-11-11 09:05:08 <gmaxwell> imton: that transaction doesn't exist in the system.
 483 2013-11-11 09:06:36 <imton> ok. shouldn't be better to answer a better error to this particular tx other than "No information available about transaction"
 484 2013-11-11 09:06:45 <imton> it was driving me crazy
 485 2013-11-11 09:07:53 <gmaxwell> imton: what, so there is yet another special case that the calling code needs to handle? .. which they'll likely never discover?
 486 2013-11-11 09:09:01 <imton> gmaxwell: is there any other special case or does it happen only in this particular?
 487 2013-11-11 09:09:22 <imton> it is that I was testing my system with this transaction and I never thought it was not valid.
 488 2013-11-11 09:09:38 <imton> i thought it was a problem with my index, and rebuild it twice :s
 489 2013-11-11 09:12:01 <gmaxwell> imton: just this transaction.
 490 2013-11-11 09:12:53 <imton> gmaxxwell: great. I don't know why I did choose to test my system with this particular transaction. #badluck
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 493 2013-11-11 09:17:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|imton: yeah, the enemies block is a bad thing for testingjust about anything
 494 2013-11-11 09:17:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|and by enemies I mean genesis
 495 2013-11-11 09:17:39 conman has joined
 496 2013-11-11 09:18:39 <imton> michagogo|cloud: Well, I have the bad habit of loving testing in limit/extreme scenarios. I think that if in extreme scenarios work, it should work in normal too... at least I understood why this was an exception
 497 2013-11-11 09:20:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah, the genesis block isn't considered part of the blockchain for most intents and purposes
 498 2013-11-11 09:20:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not indexed, etc
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 500 2013-11-11 09:21:25 <gmaxwell> imton: if it returned then it would be leading you to think there was an extra spendable output that doesn't really exist and isn't really spendable.
 501 2013-11-11 09:21:31 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't call that working.
 502 2013-11-11 09:22:57 <imton> gmaxwell: wait... I did not mention that I am using -txindex=1
 503 2013-11-11 09:23:13 <imton> gmaxwell: which I supposed it will index *everything*
 504 2013-11-11 09:24:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|imton: everything that's a tea sanction in the system
 505 2013-11-11 09:25:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Like I said, for most purposes, the genesis block isn't a block and the genesis coinbase transaction isn't a transaction
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 507 2013-11-11 09:27:46 <gmaxwell> imton: the transaction doesn't exist. It never existed.
 508 2013-11-11 09:27:59 <gmaxwell> It's not that it existed and was spent. It was not spent. It can never be spent.
 509 2013-11-11 09:28:17 <gmaxwell> If it returned it, and you used that functionality to build an external index, you'd conclude there were 50 more spendable BTC than there are.
 510 2013-11-11 09:28:27 <gmaxwell> (because there is no txn spending that unspendable coin)
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 512 2013-11-11 09:29:12 <imton> ok, I think I get it...
 513 2013-11-11 09:29:38 <gmaxwell> warren: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1021897
 514 2013-11-11 09:29:40 <imton> so blockchain.info report is wrong reporting "Total Received 65" right?
 515 2013-11-11 09:29:41 <imton> https://blockchain.info/address/1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa
 516 2013-11-11 09:29:52 <gmaxwell> warren: Fixed In Version: openssl-1.0.1e-31.fc21
 517 2013-11-11 09:30:02 <imton> it takes into account 50btcs from 1st tx
 518 2013-11-11 09:30:17 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 519 2013-11-11 09:31:23 <imton> might i know why that 1st tx can not be spent?
 520 2013-11-11 09:31:46 <imton> (i'd like to understand the underlaying motive)
 521 2013-11-11 09:31:58 <warren> gmaxwell: what's the difference between r1 and k1?
 522 2013-11-11 09:32:10 <sipa> imton: a bug, or intentional
 523 2013-11-11 09:32:20 <sipa> imton: it doesn't matter, we can't change it
 524 2013-11-11 09:32:38 <sipa> there are 11974664.79461179 BTC spendable now
 525 2013-11-11 09:32:48 <gmaxwell> imton: because the block was hardcoded instead of being created the normal way— may have been an accident, or not.
 526 2013-11-11 09:33:26 <gmaxwell> warren: they closed the secp256k1 bug with a fixed-by that bug.
 527 2013-11-11 09:33:39 <warren> gmaxwell: tested it yet?
 528 2013-11-11 09:34:10 <warren> gmaxwell: if so, this means we need to respond in the bitcoin package review to prevent dumb things from being shipped
 529 2013-11-11 09:34:30 <gmaxwell> warren: you now know all that I know.
 530 2013-11-11 09:34:44 <gmaxwell> I'm going to bed now, but perhaps you'd like to go look at the rawhide package?
 531 2013-11-11 09:34:57 <warren> I need to be up early myself.
 532 2013-11-11 09:35:42 <imton> sipa, gmawell: so can't the creator of block 0 (i suppose satoshi) spend it? i don't why sipa says "can't change it now", can't a code patch allow it? (again, I just want to understand this).
 533 2013-11-11 09:36:36 <sipa> imton: the rules of the network are fixed
 534 2013-11-11 09:36:41 <sipa> of course software can change
 535 2013-11-11 09:37:00 <sipa> but that would mean a potential hard fork if he decided to spend the genesis block
 536 2013-11-11 09:37:12 <sipa> as old software would not accept the change
 537 2013-11-11 09:37:33 <sipa> so the reason doesn't matter, we must make sure that new software behaves the same way as the old
 538 2013-11-11 09:38:20 <imton> what would happen today if he makes a transaction from that block, bitcoind will not accept it right?
 539 2013-11-11 09:38:28 <sipa> indeed
 540 2013-11-11 09:38:35 <sipa> no bitcoind ever would accept it
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 542 2013-11-11 09:38:55 <imton> great, I still not understand why that would cause a hard fork if we'd allow it...
 543 2013-11-11 09:39:25 <sipa> because old software would not accept his transaction, and new software would
 544 2013-11-11 09:39:36 <sipa> so we'd end up with two block chains
 545 2013-11-11 09:39:45 <sipa> each software version ignoring the other
 546 2013-11-11 09:40:56 <imton> oh ok. I get it now. The first versions of bitcoind (which he started) hardcoded did not allowed and we know have to still forbidding it. But he *could* have allowed it without any problem, right?
 547 2013-11-11 09:41:16 <imton> *now
 548 2013-11-11 09:41:36 <sipa> it would be possible to change, if we required everyone to change their software yes
 549 2013-11-11 09:42:06 <sipa> but that,s an extraordinarily hard thing to do, and this small things, which may have been intentional even, is certainly not worth it
 550 2013-11-11 09:42:31 <imton> sipa: that was what I wanted to know. I was thinking that there might be any problem that for some other specific reason if we allowed it that txs to be spendable bitcoin would not work. But I see that's not the case and only because of legacy.
 551 2013-11-11 09:42:51 <sipa> right, indeed
 552 2013-11-11 09:43:12 <sipa> that's what i meant with "the teason doesn't matter, we can't change it now"
 553 2013-11-11 09:43:19 <sipa> we don't even know what the reason was
 554 2013-11-11 09:43:23 <imton> as always, thanks sipa, gmaxwell, michagogo|cloud for your patient :)
 555 2013-11-11 09:43:24 <warren> gmaxwell: eh?  the secp256k1 bug was not closed.
 556 2013-11-11 09:43:33 <warren> gmaxwell: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1021898
 557 2013-11-11 09:43:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, the issue is that the way the genesis block is coded in, it doesn't get processed like a block so it's transaction isn't part of the ITXO set
 558 2013-11-11 09:43:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|UTXO*
 559 2013-11-11 09:44:00 <sipa> right now, it is
 560 2013-11-11 09:44:13 <sipa> and there is just a special case for the geneaia block to not add it
 561 2013-11-11 09:44:15 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|dislikes being on a slow/spotty connection
 562 2013-11-11 09:44:38 <sipa> but otherwise, the genesis block is now mostly processed in the same way as other blocks
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 565 2013-11-11 09:53:15 <imton> sipa: wrote you on private
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 615 2013-11-11 11:06:14 <Anduck> if i have a database to keep users balances and their associated addresses, when using sendmany, is it a risk that the change amount gets sent to one of customer-associated address?
 616 2013-11-11 11:07:02 <gmaxwell> no.
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 618 2013-11-11 11:07:17 <Anduck> so sendmany will generate a new address every time?
 619 2013-11-11 11:07:26 <Anduck> for change
 620 2013-11-11 11:07:53 <gmaxwell> send* uses a new address from the address pool every time.
 621 2013-11-11 11:07:58 <Anduck> and i mean customer-associated addresses by database, not bitcoind accounts system
 622 2013-11-11 11:08:04 <Anduck> aight
 623 2013-11-11 11:08:26 <Anduck> thanks
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 627 2013-11-11 11:09:46 <TD> helo
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 629 2013-11-11 11:10:10 <Anduck> how many keys does the keypool keep? 100?
 630 2013-11-11 11:10:15 <DonnchaC> Hi, I'm trying to create tx's spending from multisig address in python. I'm pretty sure I am generating my raw transaction correctly but I'm not sure whats going wrong (possibily with signing). When I try broadcast the fully signed tx blockchain.info tells me "Unable To find all tx inputs" - https://gist.github.com/anonymous/ac6b28a729b595d06c53
 631 2013-11-11 11:10:33 <Anduck> keypoolrefill will make new addresses to there are 100 in keypool?
 632 2013-11-11 11:11:06 <DonnchaC> I asked a few days ago but noone in the channel was able to help me.
 633 2013-11-11 11:11:47 <DonnchaC> Anyone see anything obvious wrong with my tx. I have spent far too long trying to figure this out already :) Or where would be the best place to go for help?
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 646 2013-11-11 11:40:31 <HaltingState> lampert siguratures make no sense; wikipedia page is horrible written, wtf
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 648 2013-11-11 11:41:15 <HaltingState> like "alive creates her private key and never uses it agains and should probably throw it away" lol
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 652 2013-11-11 11:47:00 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: huh, it doesn't say that.
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 655 2013-11-11 11:57:25 <iceTwy> Hey there
 656 2013-11-11 11:57:31 <iceTwy> How could I generate my own bootstrap.dat file
 657 2013-11-11 12:01:47 <gmaxwell> contrib/linearize
 658 2013-11-11 12:01:55 <gmaxwell> in git.
 659 2013-11-11 12:01:59 <gmaxwell> Dunno if it currently works.
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 662 2013-11-11 12:03:11 <arioBarzan> Who came up with the idea of compressed form of bitcoin addresses, Nakamoto or other developers?
 663 2013-11-11 12:04:22 <warren> gmaxwell: fedora python appears to be busted, I ended up making bootstrap.dat with a fresh IBD with the do-not-store-orphans patch
 664 2013-11-11 12:04:35 <warren> and a hack to stop sync at a particular height
 665 2013-11-11 12:06:49 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, " Then for each bit in the hash sum she picks the corresponding number from her private key.","Note that now that Alice's private key is used, it should never be used again. The other 256 random numbers that she did not use for the signature she must never publish or use. Preferably she should delete them; otherwise, others gaining access to them would later be able to create false signatures."
 666 2013-11-11 12:07:06 <HaltingState> ahh so she only deletes half the numbers in private key
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 672 2013-11-11 12:10:00 <sipa> arioBarzan: addresses are not compressed, really
 673 2013-11-11 12:10:24 <HaltingState> sipa, how do i hash a compressed address to get bitcoin address? do i have to expand it first or can i just hash it
 674 2013-11-11 12:10:42 <sipa> HaltingState: an address is the hash of the public key
 675 2013-11-11 12:10:46 <sipa> that's all you need to know
 676 2013-11-11 12:10:57 <HaltingState> so compressed public key, just hash it and its fine
 677 2013-11-11 12:11:05 <sipa> indeed
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 679 2013-11-11 12:11:07 <HaltingState> awesome
 680 2013-11-11 12:11:35 <HaltingState> lampert signatures make sense now; but are sort of stupid
 681 2013-11-11 12:13:33 <arioBarzan> I could not find how a signature for a public key with prefix 0x02 or 0x03 is validated, specifically how y value could be derived from the x value.
 682 2013-11-11 12:13:55 <sipa> arioBarzan: the curve has equation y^2 = x^3 + 7
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 684 2013-11-11 12:14:01 <arioBarzan> sipa: thanks
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 686 2013-11-11 12:15:49 <arioBarzan> sipa: Was compressed keys introduced by Nakamoto?
 687 2013-11-11 12:15:54 <sipa> no, by me
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 689 2013-11-11 12:18:01 <arioBarzan> Since y^2 = x^3 + 7 so there would be no security difference between old and compressed versions, right?
 690 2013-11-11 12:18:11 <sipa> there is no security difference
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 692 2013-11-11 12:18:22 <sipa> they're just smaller, and a tiny bit more expensive to verify
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 695 2013-11-11 12:24:04 <imton> guys, what did change in 0.8.X  "getblock" RPC response from older versions?
 696 2013-11-11 12:24:46 <sipa> nothing
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 698 2013-11-11 12:25:17 <sipa> (continuing from PM), the text you pasted referred to a much (much!) older patch for bitcoind that added a getblock-like command
 699 2013-11-11 12:25:28 <sipa> the one that was actually added (in 0.6 or 0.7 or so) was a bit different
 700 2013-11-11 12:26:23 <imton> oh, because there wasn't "get block" RPC call back then?
 701 2013-11-11 12:26:32 <sipa> indeed
 702 2013-11-11 12:26:38 <imton> this is from 3 months ago
 703 2013-11-11 12:26:38 <imton> https://github.com/lirazsiri/blockexplorer-bitcoind
 704 2013-11-11 12:28:03 <sipa> yeah, they just seem to have packaged a bunch of outdated code together
 705 2013-11-11 12:30:06 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, so if we only use each address once then we can use lambert signatures?
 706 2013-11-11 12:30:27 <HaltingState> and if we have massive hard discs and gigabit ethernet to move all these 16 KB signatures...
 707 2013-11-11 12:32:04 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: Lamport, not lambert. 12kbytes, since the signatures can be compressed. And if they are merkelized you can get finite reuse. with very small additional overhead (log2(reuse) additional hashes in the signatures)
 708 2013-11-11 12:32:19 <HaltingState> sipa, are signatures canonical now? or is there still that transform for producing other valid signatures?
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 710 2013-11-11 12:32:39 <sipa> HaltingState: which signatures?
 711 2013-11-11 12:32:55 <HaltingState> in your library, i am doing compressed signatures in my golang library/wrapper
 712 2013-11-11 12:33:13 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: and yea, they're on the order of 128-256 times larger. which doesn't actally result in quite "massive hard discs and gigabit ethernet" if projected onto bitcoin's current usage, but indeed, its' a lot bigger.
 713 2013-11-11 12:33:17 <sipa> of course they're canonical
 714 2013-11-11 12:33:32 <HaltingState> also, is there way to check that signature is canonical? a compressed non-canonical signature would still be valid right?
 715 2013-11-11 12:33:33 <sipa> HaltingState: wait, compressed signatures?
 716 2013-11-11 12:34:05 <sipa> compact signatures have nothing to do with that, they're a completely independent non-standard type of signature encoding
 717 2013-11-11 12:34:12 <sipa> the word 'canonical' doesn't apply to that
 718 2013-11-11 12:35:01 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, miners would love those transaction fees if there was addition for lamport in addition to secp256k1 in the same block chain; /r/bitcoin will be creating NSA quantum computer scare stories ahaha
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 721 2013-11-11 12:36:10 <HaltingState> sipa, ok; i am doing compact signatures and I want to know; can someone change the signature to get another valid signature for same message without the private key
 722 2013-11-11 12:36:33 <HaltingState> because i know they can do that for the normal 72 byte signatures that openssl was putting out
 723 2013-11-11 12:36:35 <sipa> HaltingState: if you don't enforce non-malleability, yes
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 725 2013-11-11 12:37:18 <sipa> HaltingState: if you force the highest bit of the first byte of S to be 0, it's non-malleable
 726 2013-11-11 12:37:53 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: wtf does lamport have to do with _secp256k1_ ?! they're totally seperate cryptosystems.
 727 2013-11-11 12:38:10 <sipa> "in addition to"
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 729 2013-11-11 12:39:19 <HaltingState> sipa, hmm; how do i enforce it to be 0? generate nonces until its 0?
 730 2013-11-11 12:39:25 <sipa> yes
 731 2013-11-11 12:39:27 <sipa> no no
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 735 2013-11-11 12:39:43 <sipa> it _creates_ signatures that already satisfy that condition
 736 2013-11-11 12:39:48 <sipa> but it will accept ones that don't
 737 2013-11-11 12:39:53 <sipa> maybe i should change that, and be strict
 738 2013-11-11 12:40:25 <HaltingState> yes; i want some way to know signature is valid but fails malleability
 739 2013-11-11 12:40:45 <sipa> well if the highest bit of S is 1, you can take its complement
 740 2013-11-11 12:40:53 <sipa> and end up with a valid signature
 741 2013-11-11 12:40:59 <sipa> that is canonical
 742 2013-11-11 12:41:08 <HaltingState> so just set highest bit to 0 and its safe?
 743 2013-11-11 12:41:15 <sipa> ...
 744 2013-11-11 12:41:31 <HaltingState> nm; i mean check if its zero during signature check?
 745 2013-11-11 12:41:38 <sipa> yes
 746 2013-11-11 12:41:45 <HaltingState> ok, i am adding this to my unit tests
 747 2013-11-11 12:44:51 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, secp256k1 and lamport are related in that they are public key systems.  I mean in future there will probably be a BIP for adding outputs that require a lamport signature to spend etc expecially if there is ever a quantum computer demonstrated or advances in discrete log
 748 2013-11-11 12:45:55 <sipa> i doubt that
 749 2013-11-11 12:46:01 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: I thought you were suggesting that it be added to libsecp256k1, I misparsed your sentence.
 750 2013-11-11 12:47:04 <HaltingState> i am yelling at the telehash people for using secp256r1 instead of secp256k1; they thing k1 is "more secure" despite fact that there is no implementation that works and wrapping it is now taking up massive time, lol
 751 2013-11-11 12:47:18 <HaltingState> *think r1 is more secure
 752 2013-11-11 12:47:45 <gmaxwell> ...
 753 2013-11-11 12:47:49 <arioBarzan> if a coin is sent to "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG" and <pubKey> is in compressed form, could it get spent with <sig> from old versions of <pubKey> ?
 754 2013-11-11 12:48:17 <gmaxwell> You know that the *r curves are selected via an undisclosed secret process, right?
 755 2013-11-11 12:48:28 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: telehash is offtopic for this channel.
 756 2013-11-11 12:48:34 <matjeh> omgNSA
 757 2013-11-11 12:49:05 <sipa> arioBarzan: no
 758 2013-11-11 12:49:20 <sipa> arioBarzan: oh, yes, of course
 759 2013-11-11 12:49:26 <sipa> the public key is the same
 760 2013-11-11 12:49:32 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: do you mean a scriptSig from the old version? or just the ecdsa sigining output?
 761 2013-11-11 12:49:45 <sipa> but the pubkey hash is different
 762 2013-11-11 12:49:50 <gmaxwell> the scriptsig will be different, and bitcoin software regards the compressed and uncompressed as seperate keys.
 763 2013-11-11 12:50:03 <gmaxwell> The ecdsa signature itself is the same, as the pubkey is the same.
 764 2013-11-11 12:50:26 <arioBarzan> sipa: the public key is the same so <sig> from compressed<pubKey> should be as valid as <sig> from old<pubKey>
 765 2013-11-11 12:50:51 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: it's still not clear what you mean by <sig>
 766 2013-11-11 12:51:06 <gmaxwell> If by <sig> you mean the scriptSig, no they're different.
 767 2013-11-11 12:51:11 <arioBarzan> sipa: but it should be presented as <sig> <pubKey> where <pubKey> is the compressed version, right?
 768 2013-11-11 12:51:16 <sipa> arioBarzan: indeed
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 770 2013-11-11 12:51:35 <gmaxwell> okay then you don't mean scriptSig, and sure. they're the same then.
 771 2013-11-11 12:51:48 <sipa> not that it should matter
 772 2013-11-11 12:52:04 <sipa> the receiver decides the address, and thus the output script
 773 2013-11-11 12:52:40 <imton> sipa: I am sorry, the fork of bitcoin-abe which was supposed to be updated, resulted was outdated and bitcoin-abe is now updated :)
 774 2013-11-11 12:52:59 <imton> sipa: bitcoin-abe seems to be working fine with current getblock RPC
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 776 2013-11-11 12:54:22 <arioBarzan> Yes, I assumed "scriptSig: <sig> <pubKey>" . (I read it from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script )
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 781 2013-11-11 12:58:26 <arioBarzan> sipa: it would have been nice then if bitcoin-qt had a feature that could detect by which (old or compressed) form the input should be signed and if it has one of the forms of private keys, sign tx regardless of form of public key.
 782 2013-11-11 12:58:37 <sipa> arioBarzan: i strongly disagree
 783 2013-11-11 12:58:46 <sipa> as i said, the receiver determines the script
 784 2013-11-11 12:59:09 <sipa> it's like saying "how do you mean, you didn't get paid? i sent you a ton of 5 cent pieces!"
 785 2013-11-11 12:59:20 <sipa> the receiver determines how he wants to be paid, and only needs to support that
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 790 2013-11-11 13:05:15 <arioBarzan> if the ecdsa signature itself is the same, what would be the advantage of bitcoin software regarding the compressed and uncompressed as separate keys? would it be cheaper or faster to validate the signature?
 791 2013-11-11 13:05:41 <sipa> it only needs to look at one hash now to detect incoming payments
 792 2013-11-11 13:05:49 <sipa> otherwise it would need to check for both versions
 793 2013-11-11 13:05:52 <sipa> and there is just no need
 794 2013-11-11 13:06:01 <sipa> nobody should pay to the one you didn't give them
 795 2013-11-11 13:06:07 <sipa> as they simply can't know
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 797 2013-11-11 13:09:51 <arioBarzan> Thanks. Now I get it.
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 799 2013-11-11 13:15:13 <gmaxwell> 04:56 < sipa> it's like saying "how do you mean, you didn't get paid? i sent you a ton of 5 cent pieces!"
 800 2013-11-11 13:15:49 <gmaxwell> "To a mailbox in china, with your mothers maden name as the passcode to the mailbox. I even wrote your name on the mailbox in big letters."
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 808 2013-11-11 13:19:41 <wumpus> hehe
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 814 2013-11-11 13:26:54 <arioBarzan> in a tx with several inputs, in case some of those inputs are signed by same key, the <pubKey> would be several times repeated. could it be avoided?
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 816 2013-11-11 13:27:41 <arioBarzan> I gziped binary form of such a tx and it got compressed by 33%.
 817 2013-11-11 13:28:02 <TD> re-use of keys like that should, long term, go away
 818 2013-11-11 13:28:15 <TD> so there's no real incentive to do that kind of compression, although it might make sense to gzip blocks when they are being downloaded
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 823 2013-11-11 13:32:57 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #445: FAILURE in 40 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/445/
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 825 2013-11-11 13:33:48 <arioBarzan> one example of such transaction is https://coinbase.com/network/transactions/d681daf39bf03a31895053b9d1b259d2b926ef1cf3a5989a8d71f5332a68454f
 826 2013-11-11 13:34:42 <arioBarzan> 04b4c41ed665242c... is repeated in the raw transaction
 827 2013-11-11 13:35:21 <sipa> yes, we know address reuse is common now
 828 2013-11-11 13:35:26 <sipa> but over time, it shouldn't be
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 830 2013-11-11 13:37:11 <arioBarzan> sipa: you mean people over time should consider use a new address for each receiving tx?
 831 2013-11-11 13:37:16 <sipa> they should now
 832 2013-11-11 13:37:22 <sipa> but it's not always easy
 833 2013-11-11 13:37:35 <sipa> things like the payment protocol will simplify doing it correctly
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 860 2013-11-11 14:27:06 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
 861 2013-11-11 14:27:06 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #446: FIXED in 49 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/446/
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 865 2013-11-11 14:31:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|arioBarzan: the reason they need to be repeated is that each input with its scriptSig is a separate unit
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 868 2013-11-11 14:32:08 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's no opcode for "take  this parameter from the previous script
 869 2013-11-11 14:32:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"
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 874 2013-11-11 14:38:04 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #447: FAILURE in 10 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/447/
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 878 2013-11-11 14:44:44 <skinnkavaj> Is it safe to use this script or could malware be placed inside the script?
 879 2013-11-11 14:44:44 <skinnkavaj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264337.0
 880 2013-11-11 14:45:05 <skinnkavaj> I know the developer has quite much respect but I don't want tot take any risks
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 884 2013-11-11 14:51:18 <wumpus> skinnkavaj: I've used jackjack's bitcoin tools (and many other people have) and never found any malware inside, but in any case, do your own research
 885 2013-11-11 14:51:42 <hno> Is it normal to see a lot of "inputs already spent" and "nonstandard transaction: dust"?
 886 2013-11-11 14:51:49 <_ingsoc> Is it true that MtGox owns the Bitcoin trademark? :/
 887 2013-11-11 14:52:07 <skinnkavaj> _ingsoc: Lol no one owns that.
 888 2013-11-11 14:52:49 <skinnkavaj> _ingsoc: You are free to user bitcoin however you want
 889 2013-11-11 14:52:57 <_ingsoc> There's a bit of information online suggesting that they do.
 890 2013-11-11 14:53:12 <skinnkavaj> That's bullshit
 891 2013-11-11 14:53:15 bmcgee has joined
 892 2013-11-11 14:53:18 <_ingsoc> Is there a license for the Bitcoin logo?
 893 2013-11-11 14:53:19 <HaltingState> they own it but are not asserting any rights on it
 894 2013-11-11 14:53:21 <HaltingState> for usage
 895 2013-11-11 14:53:22 <_ingsoc> CC maybe?
 896 2013-11-11 14:53:30 OrP has joined
 897 2013-11-11 14:53:33 <HaltingState> which is good because it prevents someone else from registering it and doing shakedowns
 898 2013-11-11 14:54:03 <_ingsoc> So if I used Bitcoin in the name of whatever project, I'll be okay?
 899 2013-11-11 14:54:22 ralphtheninja has joined
 900 2013-11-11 14:54:23 <bmcgee> Hey, qq. The scriptSig for the input in a coinbase transaction has 2 requirements for a version 2 block: first few bytes is the height in CScript format, and the total bytes <= 100. Is his correct?
 901 2013-11-11 14:54:37 <HaltingState> if you call project "bitcoin 2" someone might be pissed
 902 2013-11-11 14:54:50 <HaltingState> if you have like "Bitcoin ATM" no one will care and mtgox wont sue you
 903 2013-11-11 14:54:55 <hno> Anyway, found the reason to why I thought addnode behaved strangely and it's because it respectes the outgoing connections cap, which combined with a 2 min delay means such addnode connections never recover once lost.
 904 2013-11-11 14:55:14 <_ingsoc> Wow, so if you call it something MtGox doesn't like you could get sued basically?
 905 2013-11-11 14:55:18 <HaltingState> no
 906 2013-11-11 14:55:21 <hno> but do not explain why I am seeing delays in block announcements between the nodes.
 907 2013-11-11 14:55:23 <HaltingState> they are not going to do that
 908 2013-11-11 14:55:46 <HaltingState> however you should not make it sound like your thing is affiliated with bitcoin foundation is official bitcoin (whatever that is)
 909 2013-11-11 14:55:50 <hno> HaltingState, I assume they might take action if someone abuses the Bitcoind trademark?
 910 2013-11-11 14:55:54 <HaltingState> no
 911 2013-11-11 14:56:35 <HaltingState> they wont; probably not; but someone released something called bitcoin 2.0 and its just an altcoin and its like "blaaaa" and it has nothing to do with bitcoin and is no endorsed by bitcoin community and is just scam coin
 912 2013-11-11 14:57:00 <HaltingState> so use bitcoin when it makes common sense and dont use the trademark when it would be stupid or misleading to do so
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 914 2013-11-11 14:57:12 <hno> A trademark that is not defended is effectively invalidated.
 915 2013-11-11 14:57:14 <_ingsoc> Hmmm.
 916 2013-11-11 14:57:28 <_ingsoc> Good to know MtGox owns Bitcoin.
 917 2013-11-11 14:57:35 <HaltingState> no one is going to assert rights over bitcoin trademark
 918 2013-11-11 14:58:08 <HaltingState> but mtgox registered it to prevent trolls from using trademark for shakedowns; some laywer in NY trademarked bitcoin and was going to shake people down
 919 2013-11-11 14:58:35 <HaltingState> also, expect bitcoin patent trolls soon
 920 2013-11-11 14:58:55 <_ingsoc> Yeah, here you go https://www.mtgox.com/press_release_20111014.html
 921 2013-11-11 14:58:55 <HaltingState> who claim that bitcoin violates their patents and start shaking down bitcoin companies or anyone who has money that uses bitcoin
 922 2013-11-11 14:59:55 SwampTony has joined
 923 2013-11-11 15:01:12 <_ingsoc> This sounds good at least: "We would like to use this opportunity to formally announce that all trademarks related to the term “Bitcoin” filed for and obtained by Tibanne K.K will be made freely available to anyone to use for whatever purpose whatsoever, whether that be for non-profit or commercial endeavours."
 924 2013-11-11 15:02:49 <HaltingState> sipa, I am signing messages and highest bit of the compact signature is 1!!!
 925 2013-11-11 15:02:57 <HaltingState> 	if (b & 0x80) == 0x80 {
 926 2013-11-11 15:02:57 <HaltingState> 		log.Panic("b= %v b2= %v \n", b, b&0x80)
 927 2013-11-11 15:02:57 <HaltingState> 	}
 928 2013-11-11 15:03:04 <sipa> what bit?
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 930 2013-11-11 15:03:17 <HaltingState> the highest bit of the first byte of signature
 931 2013-11-11 15:03:28 <sipa> it's the highest bit of S
 932 2013-11-11 15:03:33 <sipa> so the 32nd byte
 933 2013-11-11 15:03:38 <HaltingState> wtf
 934 2013-11-11 15:03:49 <HaltingState> what is S?
 935 2013-11-11 15:04:01 <sipa> learn ECDSA first
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 937 2013-11-11 15:04:28 <helo> HaltingState: good intro - http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/10/a-relatively-easy-to-understand-primer-on-elliptic-curve-cryptography/
 938 2013-11-11 15:04:49 <hanihani> one thing I dont get about armory for instance, is how the hot-wallet can generate new addresses without knowing the master key
 939 2013-11-11 15:06:06 <t7> i guess it creates a new priv key too
 940 2013-11-11 15:06:21 <t7> its only a receive address right?
 941 2013-11-11 15:07:03 <gmaxwell> hanihani: see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19137.0 or BIP 32 (which will eventually be the standard version of that functionality).
 942 2013-11-11 15:07:58 <gmaxwell> (eventually in the sense that nothing substantive is using it yet, I think, at least nothing released)
 943 2013-11-11 15:09:30 <hanihani> thanks
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 948 2013-11-11 15:10:53 <hanihani> B_public_key = A_public_key+B_secret*point and have a new key which has a private key: B_private_key = A_private_key+B_secret
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 951 2013-11-11 15:12:32 <HaltingState> helo, the wiki is better
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 954 2013-11-11 15:13:41 <HaltingState> i know that the curve is some kind of group and i remember doing this as an undergrad and discrete log etc
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 957 2013-11-11 15:14:37 <HaltingState> we had this awful group theory book that is horrible and ridiculouly dense and i only remember half of it
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 987 2013-11-11 15:51:03 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
 988 2013-11-11 15:51:03 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #448: FIXED in 43 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/448/
 989 2013-11-11 15:51:52 <kuzetsa> bluematt..
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 991 2013-11-11 15:51:59 <kuzetsa> ... that name seems familiar
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 993 2013-11-11 15:53:04 <kuzetsa> oh nevermind, sorry. false positive. I was thinking "blueness"
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1052 2013-11-11 17:28:19 <dobry-den> eiffel 65?
1053 2013-11-11 17:28:41 <Diablo-D3> is a one hit wonder
1054 2013-11-11 17:29:15 <dobry-den> whatever dude. what about 'another race from outer space'?
1055 2013-11-11 17:29:56 <dobry-den> buy some taste homie
1056 2013-11-11 17:30:13 * Diablo-D3 shrugs
1057 2013-11-11 17:30:22 <Diablo-D3> Ive never cared for eiffel 65
1058 2013-11-11 17:30:32 <dobry-den> ;)
1059 2013-11-11 17:30:55 <Diablo-D3> too much autotune
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1090 2013-11-11 18:23:32 TD is now known as TD[away]
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1096 2013-11-11 18:30:25 <imton> where can I check the current total blockchain transactions count up to now?
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1100 2013-11-11 18:33:47 agnostic_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1101 2013-11-11 18:34:01 Thepok has joined
1102 2013-11-11 18:34:02 <_zig> https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-total
1103 2013-11-11 18:34:08 agnostic98 has joined
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1106 2013-11-11 18:35:00 <imton> _zig: wow, can't believe I missed that
1107 2013-11-11 18:35:44 profreid has joined
1108 2013-11-11 18:36:20 <imton> _zig: thanks
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1125 2013-11-11 19:01:59 <hanihani> Anyone here have any exoerience using bitcoinj?
1126 2013-11-11 19:03:20 <danneu> hanihani: just ask
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1131 2013-11-11 19:04:31 <hanihani> Im writing a small exchange and I'm wondering if it is smart to use it as a client
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1139 2013-11-11 19:14:18 <gmaxwell> hanihani: for something high value you should always run bitcoinj behind your own trusted bitcoind node.
1140 2013-11-11 19:14:29 <gmaxwell> (or two)
1141 2013-11-11 19:14:39 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1142 2013-11-11 19:14:50 <hanihani> yup, what I was thinking
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1144 2013-11-11 19:17:27 <hanihani> gmaxwell, so have you been doing some stuff with bitcoinj?
1145 2013-11-11 19:17:50 <gmaxwell> No.
1146 2013-11-11 19:19:06 <phantomcircuit> hanihani, if you're going to do anything with bitcoinj i would suggest talking to TD
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1148 2013-11-11 19:20:18 <hanihani> ahh thanks :)
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1153 2013-11-11 19:23:46 <JimJones> can anyone guide me on installing bitcoin-qt on a ubuntu box?
1154 2013-11-11 19:23:55 <JimJones> on got command line
1155 2013-11-11 19:24:02 <JimJones> only*
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1158 2013-11-11 19:25:44 <hanihani> search "bitcoin-qt ubuntu ppa"
1159 2013-11-11 19:26:32 <null> depending on the release "apt-get install bitcoin-qt" should be sufficient
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1162 2013-11-11 19:27:48 <JimJones> then how to start it?
1163 2013-11-11 19:27:52 <JimJones> im a terminal noob
1164 2013-11-11 19:28:02 <wumpus> null: that likely will give you an ancient version though, it's recommended to use the ppa
1165 2013-11-11 19:28:47 <wumpus> https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
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1174 2013-11-11 19:34:49 <hanihani> probably bitcoin-qt
1175 2013-11-11 19:35:50 ValicekB has joined
1176 2013-11-11 19:35:59 <hanihani> yup, works on my ubuntu box
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1189 2013-11-11 19:49:24 <sturles> Looking through unconfirmed tx from MtGox, I find this: https://blockchain.info/tx/65edb5c800eadb5e6ae677ee34e700f81848c2fa66f8cf5c4f2bd5452d74edaa  Very high priority, solid fee, unconfirmed for hours and blockchain.info complains about "none standard input".  Which one is it?  The small one?  Is dust removal punished?
1190 2013-11-11 19:49:27 patcon_ is now known as patcon
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1194 2013-11-11 19:52:18 <helo> afaik smallness only matters with outputs
1195 2013-11-11 19:52:27 <sipa> it has a non-canonical signature
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1198 2013-11-11 19:53:59 <oleganza> hi guys. I'm debugging my objc implementation and have a problem with this unit test (from script_valid.json):
1199 2013-11-11 19:54:00 <oleganza> ["0x4c 0x00","0 EQUAL"],
1200 2013-11-11 19:54:22 <oleganza> this pushes (supposedly) empty data on the stack and then compares it with zero
1201 2013-11-11 19:54:44 <oleganza> in my implementation I compare empty data with 1-byte data 0x00 and, of course, fail
1202 2013-11-11 19:54:54 <oleganza> but looks like BitcoinQT does something differently
1203 2013-11-11 19:55:08 <oleganza> where am i wrong?
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1209 2013-11-11 19:59:53 <sturles> sipa: Please explain?  All output scripts seemt to be on the same format.
1210 2013-11-11 20:00:17 <Luke-Jr> sturles: the format of the signature in the PUSHDATA
1211 2013-11-11 20:00:22 <sipa> sturles: signatures are in the input
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1215 2013-11-11 20:02:07 <sturles> Right.  In one of the input scripts?
1216 2013-11-11 20:02:32 <sipa> the first one in particular, has a superfluous 0 byte in front of the S value
1217 2013-11-11 20:02:44 bitspill has joined
1218 2013-11-11 20:04:31 <sturles> OK.  If this is a common error, it may be the cause of some of the MtGox withdrawal delays.
1219 2013-11-11 20:04:50 <sturles> There are several transactions like this in the queue.
1220 2013-11-11 20:05:25 Diapolo has joined
1221 2013-11-11 20:06:10 <oleganza> ah, OP_0 is always "push 0 bytes" opcode
1222 2013-11-11 20:06:24 <Diapolo> hi there
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1224 2013-11-11 20:07:28 mappum has joined
1225 2013-11-11 20:08:07 <Diapolo> wumpus: Any idea for that mass of compiler warnings after header cleanup?
1226 2013-11-11 20:08:38 MobPhone has joined
1227 2013-11-11 20:11:34 <sipa> Diapolo: what warnings?
1228 2013-11-11 20:11:38 <sipa> hi there, btw!
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1239 2013-11-11 20:14:25 <Diapolo> sipa: re, I was talking about https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3236
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1248 2013-11-11 20:27:43 ahmedbodi has joined
1249 2013-11-11 20:28:16 <ahmedbodi> does anyone here know of a python bitcoin getwork server?
1250 2013-11-11 20:28:40 Jumblu_ has joined
1251 2013-11-11 20:29:12 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2980  people want to comment on their preferred bikeshed color before I redo the patch?
1252 2013-11-11 20:30:21 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1253 2013-11-11 20:30:27 <Diapolo> my hat is in the ring :-P
1254 2013-11-11 20:30:38 agnostic98 has joined
1255 2013-11-11 20:31:28 <warren> is // at ^ really cleaner?  I don't know.
1256 2013-11-11 20:32:04 <warren> Gavin earlier wanted it removed instead of commented out, or #pragma to turn off the warning.  The latter of which I think is non-portable.
1257 2013-11-11 20:32:25 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: Eloipool
1258 2013-11-11 20:32:29 <warren> in any case we're wasting time on a detail that doesn't matter.
1259 2013-11-11 20:32:56 <Luke-Jr> warren: frankly, I'd rather see the other warnings go away :p
1260 2013-11-11 20:33:00 <ahmedbodi> Luke-Jr: i can set eloipool to ONLY use getwork?
1261 2013-11-11 20:33:11 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: use?
1262 2013-11-11 20:33:16 <ahmedbodi> use
1263 2013-11-11 20:33:18 <ahmedbodi> yes
1264 2013-11-11 20:33:21 <Luke-Jr> offer, you mean?
1265 2013-11-11 20:33:26 <ahmedbodi> nope
1266 2013-11-11 20:33:42 <Luke-Jr> a getwork server doesn't use getwork.
1267 2013-11-11 20:33:45 <warren> Luke-Jr: what other warnings?
1268 2013-11-11 20:34:01 <Luke-Jr> warren: the one spammed for every file
1269 2013-11-11 20:34:10 <ahmedbodi> Luke-Jr: e.g. rather than getting the block from the bitcoin daemon with getblocktemplate
1270 2013-11-11 20:34:15 mappum has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1271 2013-11-11 20:34:17 <ahmedbodi> using getwork instead like solo mining
1272 2013-11-11 20:34:23 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: solo mining uses GBT
1273 2013-11-11 20:34:36 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind's getwork can't handle any significant load, and will probably be removed soon
1274 2013-11-11 20:34:38 mappum has joined
1275 2013-11-11 20:34:51 <Luke-Jr> warren: http://codepad.org/9DPMkswb
1276 2013-11-11 20:34:58 <ahmedbodi> yeah i know it cant, its only going to be cpu miners on testnet anyway
1277 2013-11-11 20:35:48 <Luke-Jr> so use GBT
1278 2013-11-11 20:36:18 <ahmedbodi> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/jgarzik/cpuminer/blob/0d54567563f5ff3005d046c585edad35c6cbe538/cpu-miner.c#346
1279 2013-11-11 20:36:22 MobGod_ has left ()
1280 2013-11-11 20:36:36 <ahmedbodi> Luke-Jr: i want to use getwork for a reason
1281 2013-11-11 20:36:44 <Luke-Jr> ahmedbodi: that's superceded by http://github.com/luke-jr/bfgminer these days
1282 2013-11-11 20:36:59 <ahmedbodi> well we all know that
1283 2013-11-11 20:37:01 <ahmedbodi> aha
1284 2013-11-11 20:37:25 damethos has joined
1285 2013-11-11 20:37:25 <ahmedbodi> not everyone has a gpu or has time to compile clients from scratch either
1286 2013-11-11 20:37:27 MobGod has joined
1287 2013-11-11 20:37:35 TD has joined
1288 2013-11-11 20:37:44 <ahmedbodi> *or an asic (broke my only BE :( )
1289 2013-11-11 20:37:45 rlifchitz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1290 2013-11-11 20:37:57 <Luke-Jr> well, nobody is maintaining dead code
1291 2013-11-11 20:38:18 <Luke-Jr> in the time you've been complaining here, you could have compiled BFGMiner with CPU support 2 or 3 times
1292 2013-11-11 20:38:27 paracyst has joined
1293 2013-11-11 20:39:02 <ahmedbodi> no problem, aside from arguing pointlessly over which miner is better, id guess there isnt a python poolserver which only uses getwork
1294 2013-11-11 20:39:25 <Luke-Jr> there's no point to writing one.
1295 2013-11-11 20:39:43 <ahmedbodi> to me there is
1296 2013-11-11 20:40:09 <Luke-Jr> then write one.
1297 2013-11-11 20:40:23 <Luke-Jr> there is no point.
1298 2013-11-11 20:40:25 Uglux has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1299 2013-11-11 20:40:25 <ahmedbodi> and thats why i asked if there is one so i can see how they do it
1300 2013-11-11 20:40:27 MagicFab_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1301 2013-11-11 20:40:35 <Luke-Jr> unless you're messing with scamcoins, in which case your asking here is abusing bitcoin resources.
1302 2013-11-11 20:40:42 AndyOfiesh has joined
1303 2013-11-11 20:40:55 <ahmedbodi> im not dw
1304 2013-11-11 20:42:11 <ahmedbodi> !seen jgarzik
1305 2013-11-11 20:42:12 <gribble> jgarzik was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 1 day, 18 hours, 17 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <jgarzik> warren, dunno, still on Ubuntu here.  That's linearize.py on Ubuntu 13 generated the current bootstrap.dat torrent, which has been widely validated.
1306 2013-11-11 20:42:57 <hno> ahmedbodi, most poolservers support getwork. Just ignore the rest..
1307 2013-11-11 20:43:49 <ahmedbodi> hno: the only ones i know of are pushpool and stratum-mining, pushpool i believe is c and stratum only works with gbt yet
1308 2013-11-11 20:44:23 <ahmedbodi> unless im missing one
1309 2013-11-11 20:45:18 <hno> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Poolservers lists 6/8 as supporting getwork.
1310 2013-11-11 20:45:54 <ahmedbodi> hno: but is that getwork from bitcoind or getwork for miners?
1311 2013-11-11 20:46:10 <hno> getwork from miners obviously.
1312 2013-11-11 20:46:15 bitspill has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1313 2013-11-11 20:46:28 <hno> no pool is using getwork from bitcoind.
1314 2013-11-11 20:46:36 <ahmedbodi> i need getwork from bitcoind like pushpool does
1315 2013-11-11 20:46:45 <hno> why?
1316 2013-11-11 20:46:50 <ahmedbodi> theres just something i want to try out
1317 2013-11-11 20:46:55 <hno> why?
1318 2013-11-11 20:46:59 ValicekB has left ()
1319 2013-11-11 20:47:07 <ahmedbodi> for the fun of coding something
1320 2013-11-11 20:47:17 <hno> why coding something doomed?
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1322 2013-11-11 20:47:30 <ahmedbodi> i dont see it as doomed though
1323 2013-11-11 20:47:51 _ingsoc has joined
1324 2013-11-11 20:47:57 <ahmedbodi> it might be useful for someone else some time even if its for a "scamcoin" as lukes words
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1326 2013-11-11 20:48:02 <hno> how can it not be doomed if getwork is planned to be removed entirely from bitcoind?
1327 2013-11-11 20:48:32 <ahmedbodi> whats to say everyone is going to upgrade? i doubt i will
1328 2013-11-11 20:49:10 <hno> sooner or later you will, at least if you are doing anything on bitcoins.
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1332 2013-11-11 20:52:24 <JimJones> guys i  have installed bitcoind on my ubuntu box.. its now downloading the blockchain, so now i want to know how can I contribute as a node
1333 2013-11-11 20:52:53 reneg has joined
1334 2013-11-11 20:53:11 <ahmedbodi> hno: sooner or later
1335 2013-11-11 20:53:15 <ahmedbodi> that could be in a years time (or maybe just when u guys have a fix for the huge bitcoin blockchain)
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1337 2013-11-11 20:53:47 <hno> JimJones, if it's reasonably well connected and port 8333 can be opened from the outside then just keep it running and you'll contribute to the network stability.
1338 2013-11-11 20:54:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ahmedbodi: ...what do you mean, "a fix"?
1339 2013-11-11 20:54:33 <ahmedbodi> michagogo|cloud: i dont have a clue aha, just a way to stop it taking up so much disk space and ram
1340 2013-11-11 20:54:47 <JimJones> hno, how can I check if the port 8333 is open? from ubuntu terminal?
1341 2013-11-11 20:55:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|JimJones: http://canyouseeme.org/
1342 2013-11-11 20:55:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ahmedbodi: There's already a fix
1343 2013-11-11 20:55:38 <hno> JimJones, if you are behind a NAT router then make sure UPnP is enabled or better yet set up a portforward. And make sure to accept it in any local firewall settings.
1344 2013-11-11 20:55:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Use a client like Electrum or Multibit
1345 2013-11-11 20:55:44 <JimJones> michagogo|cloud, but from the terminal
1346 2013-11-11 20:55:51 <ahmedbodi> michagogo|cloud: thats not a true fix
1347 2013-11-11 20:55:57 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1348 2013-11-11 20:56:00 <ahmedbodi> thats a workaround
1349 2013-11-11 20:56:14 Krellan_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1350 2013-11-11 20:56:25 <hno> JimJones, you can't verify that external incoming connectivity works unless testing from outside.
1351 2013-11-11 20:56:33 ecurrency has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1355 2013-11-11 20:57:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ahmedbodi: Well, anything is going to be a workaround, if "use a different client" is a workaround
1356 2013-11-11 20:57:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|To be a maximally useful node, you need the full blockchain
1357 2013-11-11 20:57:30 <sipa> michagogo|cloud: he's asking for a mining protocol; you *need* a full node for that
1358 2013-11-11 20:57:30 <ahmedbodi> cant argue with that i guess
1359 2013-11-11 20:57:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(It *is* possible to prune old blocks from disk and remain a fully-validating node, but then you can't serve blocks to peers)
1360 2013-11-11 20:58:04 <sipa> yes, but how is that relevant?
1361 2013-11-11 20:58:09 <hno> ahmedbodi, bitcoind needs full blockchain. But a client don't really need a full local bitcoind in most cases.
1362 2013-11-11 20:58:23 <sipa> the protocol to build blocks is getblocktemplate, and getwork is deprecated
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1364 2013-11-11 20:58:41 <ahmedbodi> michagogo|cloud: agreed i see where u guys are coming from doing that as standard would basically partly remove the decentralized nature of bitcoin
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1366 2013-11-11 20:59:12 <sipa> you're perfectly allowed to keep running an old version of bitcoind
1367 2013-11-11 20:59:32 <sipa> but that doesn't change the fact that getwork is deprecated, and i doubt whether many tools will keep supporting it
1368 2013-11-11 20:59:50 <hno> ahmedbodi, there is different levels of blockchain depth/history needed depending on what function a node is performing.
1369 2013-11-11 20:59:58 <ahmedbodi> sipa: thats kinda why i want to try it out since not many tools do support it
1370 2013-11-11 21:00:03 <sipa> what are we talking about now?
1371 2013-11-11 21:00:19 <sipa> mining protocols, or node pruning? they are completely independent
1372 2013-11-11 21:00:41 <ahmedbodi> sipa: we were talking about mining protocols but then somehow switched to node pruning aha
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1400 2013-11-11 21:29:17 <JimJones> sipa, any ideas when the next bitcoind update is going to be?
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1404 2013-11-11 21:31:09 <sipa> JimJones: when it's ready :)
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1407 2013-11-11 21:33:42 <JimJones> i wish there was 0.8.5 version of bitcoind i feel dirty running a 0.7.2 node lol
1408 2013-11-11 21:34:06 <iceTwy> JimJones: 0.8.5 has been out for 2 months
1409 2013-11-11 21:34:54 <JimJones> i say bitcoind
1410 2013-11-11 21:34:55 <JimJones> d
1411 2013-11-11 21:34:59 <JimJones> said*
1412 2013-11-11 21:35:23 <sipa> yes, bitcoind 0.8.5 has been out for 2 months
1413 2013-11-11 21:36:13 <JimJones>  "version" : 80500,
1414 2013-11-11 21:36:13 <JimJones>     "protocolversion" : 70001,
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1416 2013-11-11 21:36:31 <sipa> ok, so you're running 0.8.5
1417 2013-11-11 21:36:50 <JimJones> ah.. i guess bitcoin wiki is outdated then lol
1418 2013-11-11 21:36:57 HaltingState2 has joined
1419 2013-11-11 21:37:08 <sipa> yes it is, but why?
1420 2013-11-11 21:37:10 duckybsd has joined
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1422 2013-11-11 21:37:32 <JimJones> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoind#cite_note-0
1423 2013-11-11 21:37:40 <JimJones> stoped at 0.7.2 version
1424 2013-11-11 21:38:14 <sipa> oh wow, i didn't even know that page existed
1425 2013-11-11 21:38:28 <JimJones> xd
1426 2013-11-11 21:39:13 HaltingState has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1427 2013-11-11 21:39:37 <Luke-Jr> lol
1428 2013-11-11 21:40:00 <Luke-Jr> JimJones: update it! :P
1429 2013-11-11 21:40:07 <BlueMatt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Changelog
1430 2013-11-11 21:40:18 * BlueMatt remembers spending lots of time updating to 0.6.X...
1431 2013-11-11 21:41:15 <Luke-Jr> we need some non-developer volunteers to take care of these things..
1432 2013-11-11 21:41:26 <Luke-Jr> no reason to waste dev time on wiki pages like this
1433 2013-11-11 21:41:48 <BlueMatt> no, but keeping the changelog on a set of forum/ml posts instead of anywhere else is pretty bad
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1435 2013-11-11 21:41:57 <JimJones> bitcoin foundation, could very well address this
1436 2013-11-11 21:42:06 <phantomcircuit> howaboutno
1437 2013-11-11 21:42:40 <Luke-Jr> JimJones: people can volunteer without Foundation involvement
1438 2013-11-11 21:42:50 reneg1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1439 2013-11-11 21:42:58 <danneu> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/releases
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1444 2013-11-11 21:45:28 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, he needs someone to sponsor his 0.01 BTC to get whitelisted on the wiki
1445 2013-11-11 21:45:39 <phantomcircuit> (the joke here is that those payments go to the foundation)
1446 2013-11-11 21:45:41 <Luke-Jr> -.-
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1472 2013-11-11 22:13:14 <tigereye> hey sipa, you around? I've got some questions about your BIP32
1473 2013-11-11 22:13:35 meLon has joined
1474 2013-11-11 22:14:19 <tigereye> I'm trying to understand the purpose of the prime symbol in your subkey paths. (the ' or the p). What's the purpose of it?
1475 2013-11-11 22:16:11 <sipa> tigereye: distinguish between private and public derivation
1476 2013-11-11 22:16:45 <tigereye> so if I create a key with path "0", its corresponding public address is "0p" ?
1477 2013-11-11 22:17:02 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1478 2013-11-11 22:17:13 <sipa> what is '0p' ?
1479 2013-11-11 22:17:19 <tigereye> ...because from what I can tell, once you have key "0" you can grab its public address easily
1480 2013-11-11 22:17:22 <tigereye> 0p = 0'
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1482 2013-11-11 22:17:26 <sipa> no
1483 2013-11-11 22:17:47 <sipa> m/a/b and m/a'/b are completely different paths
1484 2013-11-11 22:17:57 <sipa> and each has a both a private and public key
1485 2013-11-11 22:17:57 <tigereye> (m = master?)
1486 2013-11-11 22:18:19 <sipa> yes
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1489 2013-11-11 22:19:43 <tigereye> sipa: is there any association between m/a/b and m/a'/b with respect to the "a" path? I know that a' = a+0x8000000 but is there any other association?
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1493 2013-11-11 22:20:15 <tigereye> I guess... I still don't understand what use the prime is. (the p or the ')
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1496 2013-11-11 22:20:29 <sipa> yes, you use private derivation instead of public derivation
1497 2013-11-11 22:20:30 discrete has joined
1498 2013-11-11 22:21:03 <sipa> private derivation means you _need_ the parent private key
1499 2013-11-11 22:21:32 <sipa> while public derivation can be done with either parent private or public key (but with the public one, you obviously can only compute the child public key)
1500 2013-11-11 22:21:48 <tigereye> ...so keys on the path of m/a'/b MUST be derived with the private key of m/a' ?
1501 2013-11-11 22:21:51 <tigereye> Ohhhhhhhhh
1502 2013-11-11 22:22:08 <sipa> no, m/a' need the private key of m
1503 2013-11-11 22:22:24 <sipa> pubkey(m/a) can be computed from pubkey(m)
1504 2013-11-11 22:22:52 <tigereye> alright, so to make sure I understand, let me try to regurgitate...
1505 2013-11-11 22:23:16 <tigereye> in addition to the ability for some master seed to generate private keys (and its associated public key to generate public addresses)
1506 2013-11-11 22:23:46 <tigereye> BIP32 allows you to have some branches whose addresses can only be generated with a private seed as well?
1507 2013-11-11 22:23:55 <tigereye> and this is what the ' is for
1508 2013-11-11 22:23:56 <tigereye> ?
1509 2013-11-11 22:24:14 <sipa> it has nothing to do with the seed
1510 2013-11-11 22:24:20 <tigereye> shoot. Okay.
1511 2013-11-11 22:24:25 <sipa> it applies to the parent->child transition at any level
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1513 2013-11-11 22:24:38 <sipa> for public derivation, you only need the parent pubkey
1514 2013-11-11 22:24:45 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1515 2013-11-11 22:25:09 <sipa> (with the restriction that in that case, you only obtain the child pubkey)
1516 2013-11-11 22:25:16 <tigereye> ...and for private derivation, you need the parent privkey
1517 2013-11-11 22:25:25 <sipa> for private derivation, without the parent privkey, you know nothing
1518 2013-11-11 22:26:39 tcatm has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1519 2013-11-11 22:26:44 <tigereye> .... isn't it possible to generate both halves of the "m/a/b" subkey independently from either the "m/a" privkey and the "m/a" pubkey?
1520 2013-11-11 22:26:59 <tigereye> computing "m/a" with the parent privkey would yield the privkey
1521 2013-11-11 22:27:07 <tigereye> and computing "m/a" with the parent pubkey would yield the pubkey
1522 2013-11-11 22:27:07 <tigereye> ?
1523 2013-11-11 22:27:16 <sipa> yes, for public derivation
1524 2013-11-11 22:27:25 <sipa> not for private derivation, there you always need the parent privkey
1525 2013-11-11 22:27:45 <sipa> so with pubkey(m), you cannot compute pubkey(m/a')
1526 2013-11-11 22:27:58 <sipa> while with pubkey(m), you can compute pubkey(m/a)
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1528 2013-11-11 22:28:03 <tigereye> but with privkey(m) you can compute both pubkey(m/a) and (m/a') ?
1529 2013-11-11 22:28:10 <sipa> of course
1530 2013-11-11 22:28:36 <sipa> the ' essentially removes the trick that allows derivation of pubkeys from pubkeys
1531 2013-11-11 22:28:56 <tigereye> Bang. That's the money shot.
1532 2013-11-11 22:28:58 <tigereye> and now I understand
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1535 2013-11-11 22:29:51 <tigereye> so a and a' can be thought of as cryptographic reciprocals of each other? like a standard privkey and pubkey?
1536 2013-11-11 22:30:03 <sipa> i don't see that
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1540 2013-11-11 22:30:36 <tigereye> the ' then just requires the parent priv be used when walking that branch
1541 2013-11-11 22:30:39 <tigereye> and nothing more
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1544 2013-11-11 22:33:15 <tigereye> I appreciate your time, Peter. Thanks!
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1546 2013-11-11 22:33:24 <sipa> (Pieter)
1547 2013-11-11 22:33:26 <tigereye> bah
1548 2013-11-11 22:33:28 <tigereye> sorry :s
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1550 2013-11-11 22:33:32 <sipa> :D
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1552 2013-11-11 22:34:20 <tigereye> After reading your BIP and walking through Kiss's code, I googled your name and found you were sipa. "Hey I talked to that guy before and he helped me a lot. Wonder if he's in chat again right now..."
1553 2013-11-11 22:34:24 <tigereye> am glad you were.
1554 2013-11-11 22:34:35 <sipa> :)
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1556 2013-11-11 22:35:11 <tigereye> okay last question, and I think the answer is "yes" based on my understanding...
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1560 2013-11-11 22:36:11 <tigereye> I can create a subkey branch (like m/4/x) where x is incremented for new addresses, and split off the public half and the private half of that BRANCH so an online webserver has the pub half and the offline wallet has the priv half?
1561 2013-11-11 22:36:32 <tigereye> sort of like how Electrum does seed/masterpubkey but all implemented within a BRANCH of a higher key?
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1563 2013-11-11 22:37:08 <sipa> if it's x and not x', yes
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1565 2013-11-11 22:38:24 <tigereye> right... because if it were x' then the pub half couldn't derive addresses anymore since it'd need the privkey.
1566 2013-11-11 22:38:27 <tigereye> awesome
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1568 2013-11-11 22:40:17 <tigereye> ... so Stick's "deterministic bitcoin address generator," is this just a BIP32 implementation from the master only? without any branches?
1569 2013-11-11 22:40:20 <tigereye> https://github.com/prusnak/addrgen/
1570 2013-11-11 22:40:27 dongshengcn is now known as ds|away
1571 2013-11-11 22:40:44 <sipa> no clue, haven't looked
1572 2013-11-11 22:40:47 <tigereye> or is it not BIP32 at all, and some other implementation of a deterministic address generator?
1573 2013-11-11 22:40:50 <tigereye> ok
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1585 2013-11-11 22:57:27 <DonnchaC> Hi, I'm trying to create a raw tx spending from a multisig address, can anyone see whats the problem with it? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/f82e2ab987f7d0d1877f
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1632 2013-11-11 23:42:12 <super3> hello
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