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   4 2013-11-12 00:06:18 <ahmedbodi> Is there any way to speed up a tx
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   7 2013-11-12 00:06:42 <ahmedbodi> Mine is estimated at 20 hours to confirm
   8 2013-11-12 00:07:53 <deego> ahmedbodi: how do you know that?
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  11 2013-11-12 00:09:14 <ahmedbodi> Blockchain.inf
  12 2013-11-12 00:09:18 <ahmedbodi> Info
  13 2013-11-12 00:10:16 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  14 2013-11-12 00:12:54 <ahmedbodi> Anyone? Luke-jr ?
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  16 2013-11-12 00:13:15 <sipa> ahmedbodi: pay a miner to prioritize it
  17 2013-11-12 00:13:52 <ahmedbodi> Aha im skint, anyone here willing to do it?
  18 2013-11-12 00:15:22 <midnightmagic> ahmedbodi: I would if I could inject it into p2pool's transaction pool..
  19 2013-11-12 00:15:27 <midnightmagic> sadly..
  20 2013-11-12 00:15:28 * midnightmagic shrugs.
  21 2013-11-12 00:15:44 <sipa> midnightmagic: you'd still need to mine a block yourself
  22 2013-11-12 00:16:01 <sipa> and there is an old patch that allows that, afaik
  23 2013-11-12 00:16:02 <ahmedbodi> Hmm, its for a local bitoins tx too
  24 2013-11-12 00:16:31 <midnightmagic> sipa: If I could prove my willingness to mine it by attaching it to a p2pool share, and otherws would also include, thereby cooperatively sharing a p2pool transaction pool, then p2pool miners could sell their services.
  25 2013-11-12 00:17:04 <midnightmagic> sipa: Elsewise buddy would have to wait about as long as a free tx anyway to make it in, I just don't have <1d hashrate anymore :(
  26 2013-11-12 00:17:33 <midnightmagic> sipa: A patch to p2pool?  or a patch it stuff it into my mempool?
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  29 2013-11-12 00:24:03 <ahmedbodi> Sipa is there no way for me to push the tx to a mining pools client
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  31 2013-11-12 00:25:45 <midnightmagic> ahmedbodi: You have to find one willing to do it for you. #eligius might be willing if you pay them a small fee.
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  33 2013-11-12 00:27:53 <ahmedbodi> Ty
  34 2013-11-12 00:28:26 <sipa> ahmedbodi: the network and miners likely already know about your transaction
  35 2013-11-12 00:28:26 <sipa> you'll need some deal for them to prioritize it
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  47 2013-11-12 00:38:36 <super3> sipa, do you know if anyone actually uses /contrib/wallettools?
  48 2013-11-12 00:39:25 <ahmedbodi> Yes they do
  49 2013-11-12 00:39:37 <ahmedbodi> Ive used the python wall
  50 2013-11-12 00:39:45 <ahmedbodi> Wallet thing
  51 2013-11-12 00:41:12 <super3> ahmedbodi, im specifically talking about walletchangepass.py and walletunlock.py in /contrib/wallettools
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  53 2013-11-12 00:41:43 <super3> ahmedbodi, have you used those two scripts?
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  55 2013-11-12 00:42:24 <ahmedbodi> Unlock.py i hqve
  56 2013-11-12 00:43:22 <super3> ahmedbodi, intresting
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  58 2013-11-12 00:44:17 <super3> ahmedbodi, you know that /contrib/bitrpc.py walletpassphrase [pass] does the exact same thing?
  59 2013-11-12 00:44:49 <super3> ahmedbodi, its actually the same exact code that is in walletunlock.py
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  66 2013-11-12 00:47:48 <ahmedbodi> Ahhh didnt notice
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 161 2013-11-12 02:17:40 <super3> ahmedbodi, still there?
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 172 2013-11-12 02:34:06 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #449: FAILURE in 41 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/449/
 173 2013-11-12 02:34:21 <BlueMatt> ok, wtf
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 178 2013-11-12 02:38:09 <KaosMcRage> So, dealing with the LevelDB corruption on 0.8.x Mac client issue… I haven't wanted to bring this up because it feels random and evidence is anecdotal at best, but I've noticed whether or not the client determines my block database is corrupt varies based on my network location (i.e. home vs. work).
 179 2013-11-12 02:38:10 Masterzman has joined
 180 2013-11-12 02:38:19 <KaosMcRage> I fired up the client at home and everything was fine. Went to work the next morning, tried 3-4 times throughout the day and it was corrupt every time. Bring it home for the night and it fires up first try without detecting corruption. Does that make any sense? Would IP address or other network configuration impact whether or not it thinks the DB is corrupt?
 181 2013-11-12 02:38:39 MobPhone has joined
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 183 2013-11-12 02:39:24 <KaosMcRage> Note: it's not as simple as "doesn't work at the office but works at home" because the locations may flip-flop randomly (as in, it works fine at the office but detects corruption at home).
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 187 2013-11-12 02:42:44 <danneu> KaosMcRage: people've been talking about this lately in this channel
 188 2013-11-12 02:42:59 <danneu> leveldb blockchain corruption in general
 189 2013-11-12 02:43:00 <KaosMcRage> danneu: about the network location making a difference?
 190 2013-11-12 02:43:03 <KaosMcRage> oh
 191 2013-11-12 02:43:10 <danneu> oh
 192 2013-11-12 02:43:16 <KaosMcRage> Yeah, I've been following the github issue (2770).
 193 2013-11-12 02:43:19 <danneu> you were referring to *the* issue
 194 2013-11-12 02:44:18 <KaosMcRage> I can't imagine the network thing matters, just thought I'd come here and bring it up.
 195 2013-11-12 02:44:30 <danneu> it could if the code is hilarious
 196 2013-11-12 02:44:34 <danneu> ;)
 197 2013-11-12 02:44:44 <KaosMcRage> It sure *feels* like it does, but so far I haven't been able to reproduce it reliably so…
 198 2013-11-12 02:44:52 <KaosMcRage> Yes, I suppose that's true. :)
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 201 2013-11-12 02:48:31 <danneu> try { (http.get("gavinsblog.com/valid?=" + top_block).status == 200) ? true : throw("Corrupt") } catch { throw("Corrupt") }
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 203 2013-11-12 02:49:15 <danneu> slightly adapted horror story from my last job
 204 2013-11-12 02:49:51 <KaosMcRage> I hope that isn't happening here. :)
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 247 2013-11-12 03:42:52 <semarjt> hey guys, so i was trying out armory, and did not know you were unable to import bitcoin-qt wallet files, i did try it though, and after i gave up on armory and reloaded bitcoin-qt i got 'wallet.dat corrupt salvage failed'
 248 2013-11-12 03:43:25 <semarjt> i backed up from a previous version, and it appears to not have all the coins, even though i do see my most recent, as well as my oldest transactions
 249 2013-11-12 03:43:58 <semarjt> is it possible to recover the corrupt wallet?
 250 2013-11-12 03:44:09 <semarjt> thanks in advance
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 305 2013-11-12 04:49:24 <ryan-c> is there some technical reason a transaction can't have multiple outputs to the same address?
 306 2013-11-12 04:49:50 <ryan-c> createrawtransaction barfs on that, is it just a anti-self-foot-shooting thing?
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 308 2013-11-12 04:51:36 <lianj> i guess its only a createrawtransaction thing
 309 2013-11-12 04:53:31 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: our interfaces for that stuff take hashes/arrays so they're unique mappings. In general we don't want to encourage inefficient transaction patterns in any case.
 310 2013-11-12 04:53:40 <gmaxwell> It can, but it really probably shouldn't.
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 358 2013-11-12 06:01:06 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Thanks.
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 403 2013-11-12 06:45:28 <pierce> so, doing some forensics trying to recover a private key from a damaged wallet file
 404 2013-11-12 06:45:40 reneg_ has joined
 405 2013-11-12 06:45:41 <pierce> trying to figure out how private keys are stored typically
 406 2013-11-12 06:46:22 <pierce> as a test, I took a working wallet.dat, did a dumpprivkey, converted from base58 to hex, and it seems like that data is nowhere in the wallet.dat file
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 408 2013-11-12 06:47:04 <pierce> anyone have any clues as to how the private keys get stored in the wallet.dat?  like are they obfuscated at all?
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 485 2013-11-12 08:31:51 <mantas> hello
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 499 2013-11-12 08:49:54 <swulf--> deriving y from a compressed pubkey requires a sqrt operation, right?
 500 2013-11-12 08:50:30 <bitnumus> are there any major differences between 0.8.2 and 0.8.5 ? how comes master is still on 0.8.2 ?   >  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
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 503 2013-11-12 08:52:06 <wumpus> bitnumus: master is 0.9
 504 2013-11-12 08:52:32 <bitnumus> wait, what am i seeing then
 505 2013-11-12 08:52:44 <bitnumus> i just tried compiling on raspberry pi for a day
 506 2013-11-12 08:52:47 <bitnumus> and its 0.8.2 lol
 507 2013-11-12 08:53:02 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 508 2013-11-12 08:54:51 <wumpus> maybe the version isn't bumped yet, that's usually done before release
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 510 2013-11-12 08:55:55 <wumpus> swulf--: AFAIK yes
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 515 2013-11-12 08:57:09 <wumpus> swulf--: you compute Y^2 then need to take the sqrt to get Y or -Y
 516 2013-11-12 08:57:23 <swulf--> right
 517 2013-11-12 08:57:32 <swulf--> so, it looks to me like bitcoin-js doesn't have mod_sqrt ?
 518 2013-11-12 08:57:53 <swulf--> or any other way to "decompress" pubkeys?
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 522 2013-11-12 08:58:19 <swulf--> unless modpow to -2 works?
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 540 2013-11-12 09:00:48 <wumpus> swulf--: not sure how it's implemented in bitcoin-js
 541 2013-11-12 09:01:46 <swulf--> ok
 542 2013-11-12 09:02:03 <bitnumus> wumpus, where has configure and makefiles gone in 0.8.5 ?
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 544 2013-11-12 09:02:38 <wumpus> bitnumus: 0.8.x still has the old makefiles, 0.9 (master) switched to autoconf/automake
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 546 2013-11-12 09:02:53 <wumpus> bitnumus: please follow the build instructions in doc/build-unix.md
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 548 2013-11-12 09:03:44 <bitnumus> hmm, yes i see that, however https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/  again is totally different
 549 2013-11-12 09:03:50 <bitnumus> it has  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/ etc
 550 2013-11-12 09:04:00 <bitnumus> autogen.sh  **
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 552 2013-11-12 09:04:21 <bitnumus> very weird, its ticked as 'master' but its 0.9.2
 553 2013-11-12 09:04:24 <bitnumus> 0.8.2 **
 554 2013-11-12 09:04:53 <wumpus> as I said, probably the version number hasn't been bumped yet, but master IS what is going to be 0.9
 555 2013-11-12 09:05:05 <bitnumus> ahhh ok
 556 2013-11-12 09:05:20 <bitnumus> well thats what i've been running then, and it didn't like the DB
 557 2013-11-12 09:05:21 <wumpus> [09:54:51] <wumpus> maybe the version isn't bumped yet, that's usually done before release
 558 2013-11-12 09:05:26 <bitnumus> copied chain from 0.8.5 and it kept complaining
 559 2013-11-12 09:07:33 <wumpus> huh copying a chain from 0.8 should work (given that it's not corrupted); otherwise try -reindex
 560 2013-11-12 09:07:49 <wumpus> what error message do you get?
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 573 2013-11-12 09:21:28 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
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 575 2013-11-12 09:21:29 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #450: FIXED in 44 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/450/
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 612 2013-11-12 10:10:37 <sipa> wumpus: internally the version number is bumped
 613 2013-11-12 10:10:49 <sipa> but the shown version is using git describe
 614 2013-11-12 10:11:12 <sipa> and as master branched off 0.8.2, that is what you see
 615 2013-11-12 10:13:49 <Alina-malina> Hello all! can i say that bitcoin bellongs to a DHT network type?
 616 2013-11-12 10:13:59 <Luke-Jr> no
 617 2013-11-12 10:14:28 djcoin has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
 618 2013-11-12 10:14:44 <Luke-Jr> over here, we make fun of people who think DHT has any use in Bitcoin
 619 2013-11-12 10:14:55 debianto1user has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 620 2013-11-12 10:15:06 <Luke-Jr> <.<
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 623 2013-11-12 10:15:39 <Alina-malina> I am new in bitcoin programming, i try to understand what is going on there, there is no need to make fun on people who start learning
 624 2013-11-12 10:16:00 <Luke-Jr> I didn't mean you specifically.
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 627 2013-11-12 10:19:44 <sipa> Alina-malina: bitcoin is not a DHT but a gossip network: nodes tell eachother about new information they have, until it propagates through the network... so eventually everyone hears everything
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 644 2013-11-12 10:50:50 <Alina-malina> sipa, what is the best source-code link, i find many stuff in github, but they have different authors, i want the one that is currently running, also i am interested in which file i can see the node talking to each other part, i am interested in that part very much
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 648 2013-11-12 10:56:26 <wumpus> Alina-malina: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/net.cpp
 649 2013-11-12 10:57:07 <Alina-malina> thanks alot! I will go to read the file, i hope i can find and understand what i am looking for, thanks again!
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 694 2013-11-12 12:23:45 <hno> gavinandresen, Ok. Starting get ready for debugging my block propagation issue. Have been reading code and think I understand how the propagaion works mostly, and nothing obvious sticks out.
 695 2013-11-12 12:24:42 <hno> kind of feels like if pushed blocks are sometimes ignored silently on the receiving side, but not sure yet.
 696 2013-11-12 12:25:09 <sipa> blocks that are received are processed by ProcessBlock
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 699 2013-11-12 12:26:03 <sipa> iirc, always
 700 2013-11-12 12:26:15 <sipa> except when you're reindexing/importing blocks
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 706 2013-11-12 12:28:53 <hno> sipa, The nodes are happily running for days now. Quite randomly any one of them delays a new block for many minutes, random which one. And they all have persistent connections open between each other. Nothing is sitting waiting in network sockets.
 707 2013-11-12 12:29:43 <hno> 3 nodes in total, all cross-connected with addnode. The addnode connections are verified alive.
 708 2013-11-12 12:29:44 <sipa> are they only connected to eachother, or also to the outside world?
 709 2013-11-12 12:29:53 <hno> also to outside world.
 710 2013-11-12 12:30:35 <sipa> if the first node that announces a new block is an outside one, but doesn't reply with a block when asked for it, it takes a timeout before we ask another node
 711 2013-11-12 12:30:38 <sipa> and that may be minutes
 712 2013-11-12 12:30:48 <hno> it's full nodes accepting incoming connections and making (some) outgoing connections.
 713 2013-11-12 12:30:58 <sipa> your nodes don't matter in that case
 714 2013-11-12 12:31:12 <hno> Ok, that may explain it.
 715 2013-11-12 12:31:23 <sipa> i wasn't aware of this problem, though
 716 2013-11-12 12:31:28 <sipa> but i can see that it's possible
 717 2013-11-12 12:31:42 <hno> Good, gives me something concrete to look for.
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 719 2013-11-12 12:32:43 <hno> but your explanation seems likely.
 720 2013-11-12 12:34:26 <hno> and on the good side very manageable.
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 768 2013-11-12 13:59:34 <Sp0tter> i'm running v0.8.5 but can't seem to update past block 265081.. whats the first step to find out whats wrong?  Using bitcoind, no gui.  Says  errors: "Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
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 772 2013-11-12 14:05:30 <sipa> Sp0tter: sounds like a corrupted database
 773 2013-11-12 14:05:33 <sipa> ;;blocks
 774 2013-11-12 14:05:33 <gribble> 269229
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 783 2013-11-12 14:14:18 <kezu> this may be wrong place to ask but is bitcoin version 0.3.24-beta the correct bitcoind version for ubuntu?
 784 2013-11-12 14:14:30 <kezu> may be the*^
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 786 2013-11-12 14:15:48 <sipa> kezu: no, that's ancient, buggy, slow, and not compatible with the current network anymore (unless you make some tweaks)
 787 2013-11-12 14:16:04 <sipa> latest version is 0.8.5
 788 2013-11-12 14:16:35 <kezu> ok so sudo apt-get install for ubuntu is prob no longer a viable option for installation?
 789 2013-11-12 14:16:42 <sipa> no, use the PPA
 790 2013-11-12 14:16:53 <kezu> which one sorry first time user
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 792 2013-11-12 14:17:00 <sipa> well, it is the right command, but there is no updated version in ubuntu's manin repositories
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 794 2013-11-12 14:17:12 <kezu> ah i see
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 796 2013-11-12 14:17:36 <sipa> see http://bitcoin.org/en/download
 797 2013-11-12 14:17:41 <sipa> there's a link to the PPA
 798 2013-11-12 14:17:59 <kezu> thank you. should I uninstall this version or will it be over written?
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 800 2013-11-12 14:18:19 <sipa> installing a newer one should unintall the previous one
 801 2013-11-12 14:18:27 <kezu> how do I install it from command line im trying to install bitcoind by the way
 802 2013-11-12 14:18:38 <sipa> there are instructions on the PPA page
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 807 2013-11-12 14:24:00 <kezu> sipa I shouldnt need a symlink to import the bootstrap.dat file off another drive or to store the blockchain on another drive should I
 808 2013-11-12 14:24:45 <kezu> ok looks like I was able to succesfully install the new version thanks the link
 809 2013-11-12 14:24:54 <kezu> for*^ the
 810 2013-11-12 14:26:32 <kezu> -datadir="<dir>"  tag should eliminate the need to symlink?
 811 2013-11-12 14:26:38 <sipa> yes
 812 2013-11-12 14:26:49 <kezu> sweet
 813 2013-11-12 14:27:20 <helo> anyone know why my 0.8.5 node would have 55 connections, but with the latest block ~4 weeks old?
 814 2013-11-12 14:27:35 <helo> i didn't sync for about three weeks, and not it appears to be stuck
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 816 2013-11-12 14:28:23 <helo> i'll have to check which block when i am nearby it later
 817 2013-11-12 14:28:34 <kezu> sipa is the config file not auto generated?
 818 2013-11-12 14:28:41 <sipa> kezu: no?
 819 2013-11-12 14:28:47 <kezu> do I justmake one with only the rpcline its requesting?
 820 2013-11-12 14:28:58 <sipa> you need to set an rpc user and rpc password
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 823 2013-11-12 14:29:28 <sipa> helo: what is the problem?
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 826 2013-11-12 14:30:25 <helo> i don't see any obvious errors in the log. it's connecting to nodes as usual, it just seems to be stuck. i wish i had the log here with me, but i don't :/
 827 2013-11-12 14:30:26 <kezu> sipa: yes but where do I locate the config file sorry for the noob question
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 829 2013-11-12 14:30:36 <sipa> kezu: ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
 830 2013-11-12 14:30:46 <sipa> or in general, $DATADIR/bitcoin.conf
 831 2013-11-12 14:30:59 <sipa> if you're changing the datadir, it takes its config from there
 832 2013-11-12 14:31:40 <kezu> sipa so there will be nothing in the config besides the rpcuser and rpcpassword lines?
 833 2013-11-12 14:32:04 <sipa> kezu: there won't be anything but what you put there, no
 834 2013-11-12 14:32:13 <kezu> ok
 835 2013-11-12 14:32:16 <sipa> if you want to put more configuration there, you can
 836 2013-11-12 14:32:19 <sipa> if you don't, don't
 837 2013-11-12 14:34:23 <kezu> ok sounds good. last question, when i start it again now it should start importing the bootstrap.dat? will there be any output to show its status?
 838 2013-11-12 14:34:28 <kezu> or progress?
 839 2013-11-12 14:34:40 <sipa> bitcoind never shows any output at all
 840 2013-11-12 14:34:51 <sipa> but you can call bitcoind getinfo
 841 2013-11-12 14:34:59 <sipa> or you can watch the logfile
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 843 2013-11-12 14:38:16 <sipa> kezu: please stay in channel
 844 2013-11-12 14:38:33 <sipa> tail -f <ilename> wil watch a log
 845 2013-11-12 14:38:44 <kezu> sure didnt want to clog up chan with my noob questions
 846 2013-11-12 14:38:46 <kezu> :)
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 851 2013-11-12 14:39:45 <kezu> ok so i run bitcoind and it should automatically start importing and then downloading the rest of the block chain then i open another teminal or screen instance and run bitcound getinfo?
 852 2013-11-12 14:39:57 <kezu> terminal*
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 854 2013-11-12 14:40:09 <sipa> just do it
 855 2013-11-12 14:40:30 <sipa> you'll see what happens, better than i can explain it
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 858 2013-11-12 14:41:56 <kezu> okie dokie thanks again
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 861 2013-11-12 14:49:31 <kezu> ok well I ran it it just had a blinking cursor so i ctrl z and it said bitcond stopped now i try with -debug tag and i get an error saying can not obtain a lock prob running etc
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 864 2013-11-12 14:52:18 <helo> find the pid of bitcoind/qt, 'kill <pid>', and then wait until that process has exited ('wait <pid>')
 865 2013-11-12 14:52:34 <sipa> if you used ctrl-z, you can't kill it
 866 2013-11-12 14:52:47 <sipa> continue first, and kill it the right way
 867 2013-11-12 14:52:56 <sipa> if you want it to run in the background, use -daemon
 868 2013-11-12 14:53:10 <sipa> -debug just adds more debug output to debug.log
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 872 2013-11-12 14:57:58 <kezu> ended up rebooting it
 873 2013-11-12 14:58:01 <kezu> it was un responsive
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 875 2013-11-12 14:58:33 <kezu> what is the correct way to stop it?
 876 2013-11-12 14:58:48 <sipa> bitcoind stop
 877 2013-11-12 14:58:53 <sipa> or killall bitcoind
 878 2013-11-12 14:58:57 <sipa> or ctrl-c
 879 2013-11-12 14:59:08 <sipa> (the latter won't work when it's running in the background)
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 881 2013-11-12 15:01:16 <kezu> ok
 882 2013-11-12 15:01:50 <sipa> after ctrl-z backgrounding a job, you can let it continue using the fg or bg commands in your shell
 883 2013-11-12 15:02:28 <kezu> ctrl z just made it say bitcoind stopped
 884 2013-11-12 15:02:28 <sipa> (that has nothing to do with bitcoin though)
 885 2013-11-12 15:02:34 <kezu> and killall returned nothing
 886 2013-11-12 15:02:40 <sipa> yes, you may want to read up about some basic unix shell stuff :)
 887 2013-11-12 15:03:00 <kezu> heh
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 889 2013-11-12 15:03:51 <kezu> kinda strange it doesnt let you know how many blocks are imported downloaded etc?
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 896 2013-11-12 15:12:26 <kezu> ok i ran bitcoind -getinfo i just get busy terminal i guess its doing stuff?
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 898 2013-11-12 15:14:17 <kezu> sorry i kept dc'ing had a server issue
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 900 2013-11-12 15:19:20 <sipa> it's getinfo, not -getinfo
 901 2013-11-12 15:19:39 <sipa> it's not a flag, it's a command you are sending to an already running server
 902 2013-11-12 15:20:01 <sipa> and it will tell you how many blocks it has processed
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 917 2013-11-12 15:26:37 <kezu> sipa i think its borked log says cannot bind to Error: Unable to bind to 0.0.0.0:8333 on this computer. Bitcoin is probably already running.
 918 2013-11-12 15:27:05 <sipa> then it is
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 922 2013-11-12 15:29:49 <kezu> i get $ bitcoind getinfo
 923 2013-11-12 15:29:49 <kezu> error: couldn't connect to server
 924 2013-11-12 15:31:10 <sipa> what does: ps ax| fgrep bitcoind
 925 2013-11-12 15:31:10 <helo> kezu: #bitcoin
 926 2013-11-12 15:31:11 <sipa> say?
 927 2013-11-12 15:31:59 <kezu> http://dpaste.com/1458059/
 928 2013-11-12 15:32:09 <kezu> after i started it again
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 930 2013-11-12 15:32:20 <sipa> how did you start it?
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 932 2013-11-12 15:32:45 <kezu> just typed bitcoind
 933 2013-11-12 15:32:53 <kezu> now i did bitcoind&
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 935 2013-11-12 15:33:07 <sipa> use bitcoind -daemon if you want to run it in the background
 936 2013-11-12 15:33:12 <sipa> or put daemon=1 in bitcoin.conf
 937 2013-11-12 15:33:22 <sipa> and indeed -> #bitcoin
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 939 2013-11-12 15:35:38 <skinnkavaj> Funny that the guy running BTCGuild pool have had like one chance a day to ruin bitcoin if he wanted. If it is not every day I see 6 BTCGuild blocks in row, it is every second day.
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 941 2013-11-12 15:36:09 <helo> he has one chance to ruin his reputation, not bitcoin ;)
 942 2013-11-12 15:36:31 <skinnkavaj> Bitcoin decentralized? What a joke
 943 2013-11-12 15:36:40 <skinnkavaj> He is one man in ctrol
 944 2013-11-12 15:36:41 <skinnkavaj> control
 945 2013-11-12 15:36:54 <helo> controlling six blocks isn't controlling bitcoin...
 946 2013-11-12 15:37:09 <skinnkavaj> But everyone use 6 confirmations
 947 2013-11-12 15:37:16 <skinnkavaj> He could easily manipulate that
 948 2013-11-12 15:38:33 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen say 6 confirmations is enough while it isn't
 949 2013-11-12 15:38:34 <helo> if he did that even once, his great pool would be ruined. he has a lot to lose by such a move.
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 951 2013-11-12 15:38:56 <skinnkavaj> But still, he is in control.
 952 2013-11-12 15:39:08 <skinnkavaj> What if he get hacked?
 953 2013-11-12 15:39:11 <helo> skinnkavaj: i don't believe he said that. do you have a link?
 954 2013-11-12 15:39:28 <skinnkavaj> He may not want to do it intentionally, but someone could hack his computer or his pool.
 955 2013-11-12 15:39:35 <skinnkavaj> helo: He did, google for it.
 956 2013-11-12 15:39:47 <helo> any dev will tell you that the number of confirmations you should require depends on many factors
 957 2013-11-12 15:40:18 <kezu> i dont think this bitcoind is working properly
 958 2013-11-12 15:40:54 <helo> skinnkavaj: whether he does it or is hacked, his reputation and pool popularity will be ruined. he has a lot of incentive to be secure.
 959 2013-11-12 15:40:54 <kezu> is there supposed to be no more output after dbflush ended?
 960 2013-11-12 15:41:07 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 961 2013-11-12 15:41:35 <skinnkavaj> helo: Ofc he have incentive to be secure. But I don't want to rely on his goodwill or that he is a security expert.
 962 2013-11-12 15:41:53 <skinnkavaj> I want bitcoin to be decentralized
 963 2013-11-12 15:41:58 <skinnkavaj> Which it is not today
 964 2013-11-12 15:42:10 <helo> skinnkavaj: if someone is paying you a lot of bitcoin, require more confirmations before completing your side of the deal
 965 2013-11-12 15:42:10 <sipa> it's a hard problem
 966 2013-11-12 15:42:37 <sipa> mining is almost by definition not fully decentralized: it is giving certain players in the network the privilege of controlling what goes in the chain
 967 2013-11-12 15:42:41 debiantoruser has joined
 968 2013-11-12 15:42:54 <helo> skinnkavaj: if you see a mining pool getting 7 consecutive blocks every other day, then perhaps wait 9 confirmations
 969 2013-11-12 15:43:02 <sipa> unfortunately, we do not have a better way to decentralize that part of decision-making
 970 2013-11-12 15:43:09 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 971 2013-11-12 15:43:15 <skinnkavaj> There must be other ways
 972 2013-11-12 15:43:18 <skinnkavaj> Not though off yet
 973 2013-11-12 15:43:39 <helo> skinnkavaj: "more confirmations" is the way
 974 2013-11-12 15:43:39 <sipa> and yes, what number of confirmations suffices depends on many factors, not in the least how much hashrate you assume your attacker can amass
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 976 2013-11-12 15:44:24 <Belxjander> sipa: that is why the only valid attack is to become the largest mining setup and dominate to the point where everyone else can't enter to compete
 977 2013-11-12 15:44:45 <Belxjander> sipa: once that is monopolized... it is almost end-gaming the currency afaik
 978 2013-11-12 15:45:10 <sipa> Belxjander: the systemic problem is that increasing hashrate percentage has superlinear effects
 979 2013-11-12 15:45:32 <sipa> this is obvious once you reach 51%, but it's true before that point
 980 2013-11-12 15:46:00 <Belxjander> I don't do the math side of things so well but a dominant pool only has to be the largest pool is what I see
 981 2013-11-12 15:46:40 <Belxjander> if there are 3 pools of 20% and 1 pool of 30% with a whole lot of fragments making the remaining 10%...
 982 2013-11-12 15:46:48 <Belxjander> the 30% pool I would see as dominant
 983 2013-11-12 15:47:42 <Belxjander> but any two of the 20% pools merging would immediately become dominant over that
 984 2013-11-12 15:48:18 <Belxjander> which would make the minimum "dominance position" of mining a minumum of 41% (not 51%)
 985 2013-11-12 15:48:24 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 986 2013-11-12 15:48:27 <sipa> there is no dominance as long as nobody tries to collude against others
 987 2013-11-12 15:48:30 <bitnumus> Hi, if i build bitcoind for raspberry pi, should i be able to copy the chain from ubuntu 13.10 ?
 988 2013-11-12 15:48:47 <sipa> Belxjander: in theory, though it has been reported that this doesn't work
 989 2013-11-12 15:48:48 <bitnumus> or will berkeleyDB version be an issue?
 990 2013-11-12 15:49:01 <sipa> eh. bitnumus
 991 2013-11-12 15:49:07 <Belxjander> sipa: I'm going to imagine sociopathes behind the tech so worst traits of collusion and other things will happen
 992 2013-11-12 15:49:20 <bitnumus> sipa, when i ran it, it complained about reindexing the DB, and never finished
 993 2013-11-12 15:49:37 <Belxjander> bitnumus: did you use the same version of bdb ?
 994 2013-11-12 15:49:39 <helo> bitnumus: i think some of the data can be fairly platform dependant
 995 2013-11-12 15:49:52 <sipa> leveldb is supposed to be independent
 996 2013-11-12 15:49:57 <sipa> but the ARM code may be buggy
 997 2013-11-12 15:50:14 <bitnumus> yea this was my question, is the binary for ubuntu 13.10 (its in the repo now) based off BDB5 ?
 998 2013-11-12 15:50:20 <bitnumus> because obviously i'm building for 4.8
 999 2013-11-12 15:50:20 <Belxjander> sipa: how well are you familiar with the wallet and bitcoind codebase ?
1000 2013-11-12 15:50:21 debiantoruser has joined
1001 2013-11-12 15:51:05 <bitnumus> RPI cannot handle downloading the chain, so maybe i need to install wheezy somewhere and download the chain using a binary made for that
1002 2013-11-12 15:51:18 <sipa> Belxjander: i wrote a significant part
1003 2013-11-12 15:52:02 <helo> bitnumus: yeah... running a full node on hardware like that is probably not ideal
1004 2013-11-12 15:52:03 <Belxjander> sipa: I'm considering writing up an AmigaOS variaton of the reference toolkit... But I am not so great with finding my way around the codebase
1005 2013-11-12 15:52:12 semarjt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1006 2013-11-12 15:52:22 <bitnumus> helo, its the only option
1007 2013-11-12 15:52:24 <Belxjander> sipa: the hardware on the Amiga is a PPC 667MHz as a base model
1008 2013-11-12 15:52:32 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1009 2013-11-12 15:52:38 <sipa> Belxjander: i think that's a horrible idea
1010 2013-11-12 15:53:03 <sipa> Belxjander: if you're on hardware that cannot handle a full node, then don't run one
1011 2013-11-12 15:53:21 <sipa> porting a wallet implementation of some p2p watching system is very nice of course
1012 2013-11-12 15:53:22 <Belxjander> sipa: the only options I have would be write something equivalent... or somehow compile the original code and link an AmigaOS shell around it
1013 2013-11-12 15:53:34 <Belxjander> sipa: I'm wanting to start with a Wallet program
1014 2013-11-12 15:53:48 <Belxjander> sipa: and have a shared library I can build node support into later
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1017 2013-11-12 15:54:20 <sipa> Belxjander: writing a functional full node is extremely hard
1018 2013-11-12 15:54:32 <sipa> Belxjander: knowing that you have to replciate the behaviour of other network nodes idnetically
1019 2013-11-12 15:54:35 <sipa> bug-for-bug
1020 2013-11-12 15:54:42 <Belxjander> sipa: one idea I had was to do a "blockchainfs" just to deal with the blockchain and its DB storage requirements
1021 2013-11-12 15:55:06 <danneu> Belxjander: you can get blkXXXXX.dat data from any full-node
1022 2013-11-12 15:55:12 <danneu> pressed enter too soon
1023 2013-11-12 15:55:13 <Belxjander> sipa: which is why I would start with packet reception and skip processing anything at all and slowly build up functionality starting with a local blockchain dump
1024 2013-11-12 15:55:27 <sipa> Belxjander: knock yourself out
1025 2013-11-12 15:55:30 <Belxjander> danneu: PPC is BE and x86 is LE...
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1027 2013-11-12 15:55:40 <sipa> Belxjander: as long as you don't plan on turning it into a fully verifying node
1028 2013-11-12 15:55:52 <danneu> Belxjander: can't reverse endian?
1029 2013-11-12 15:56:13 <Belxjander> sipa: I just don't really have familiarity enough with the codebase to select where to start first for any node functionality... or even to pick out what is wallet and what is other things
1030 2013-11-12 15:56:45 <Belxjander> sipa: oh hell no... I'd only do that if it was stable enough to be reference usable and I doubt I would get that far
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1034 2013-11-12 15:57:03 <Belxjander> danneu: PPC is BE at boot but soft-change for read/write both BE and LE
1035 2013-11-12 15:57:29 <Belxjander> I can "reverse read" an LE value in BE mode or vice-versa
1036 2013-11-12 15:57:34 agnostic98 has joined
1037 2013-11-12 15:57:49 <Belxjander> same clock timing on the read operation
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1070 2013-11-12 16:20:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|17:47:29 <bitnumus> yea this was my question, is the binary for ubuntu 13.10 (its in the repo now) based off BDB5 ?
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1073 2013-11-12 16:21:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No, that binary is built with 4.8
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1075 2013-11-12 16:21:51 <bitnumus> michagogo|cloud, then why wouldn't a chain from 13.10 work on a Pi ?
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1078 2013-11-12 16:22:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitnumus: BDB isn't used for the chain at all
1079 2013-11-12 16:22:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Only for wallets
1080 2013-11-12 16:22:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(as of 0.8.x, that is)
1081 2013-11-12 16:22:29 Guest6497 is now known as Hasimir
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1084 2013-11-12 16:23:04 <bitnumus> hmm, it was complaining about database, so wanted to reindex
1085 2013-11-12 16:23:10 <bitnumus> which has taken 48hours or something so far lol
1086 2013-11-12 16:23:13 patcon has joined
1087 2013-11-12 16:23:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm, yeah, you'll have a bad time indexing the blockchain on an RPi
1088 2013-11-12 16:23:41 <bitnumus> why would it want to?
1089 2013-11-12 16:23:59 <bitnumus> because of the wallet?
1090 2013-11-12 16:24:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's IO and processing power, both of which it lack
1091 2013-11-12 16:24:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s
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1099 2013-11-12 16:24:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|bitnumus: What files did you copy to the Pi to get started?
1100 2013-11-12 16:24:50 skinnkavaj has joined
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1103 2013-11-12 16:25:23 <bitnumus> michagogo|cloud, i compiled bitcoind on the Pi, then copied /blocks /chainstate
1104 2013-11-12 16:26:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I assume the node you took blocks/ and chainstate/ from was shut down?
1105 2013-11-12 16:26:48 <bitnumus> pretty sure yes
1106 2013-11-12 16:26:49 <bitnumus> :P
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1111 2013-11-12 16:28:47 <bitnumus> hmm i'll try it all again and come back!
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1118 2013-11-12 16:34:26 * bitnumus wonders if bitcoinj would be better ?
1119 2013-11-12 16:35:12 <TD> for what?
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1121 2013-11-12 16:37:33 <TD> bitnumus: what are you trying to do with the rpi?
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1124 2013-11-12 16:38:51 <bitnumus> send/receive payments frequently
1125 2013-11-12 16:39:08 <bitnumus> bitcoind is near impossible, if you turned it off for a few days it would literally be useless
1126 2013-11-12 16:39:21 <bitnumus> electrum, 1.9 isn't stable at all, and 1.8 was missing some features
1127 2013-11-12 16:39:38 <bitnumus> not looked at bitcoinj too much, but hear that JDK is a bit tricky on RPI
1128 2013-11-12 16:39:41 <bitnumus> what you think ?
1129 2013-11-12 16:40:21 <TD> Java8 runs on the RPi just fine, from what I understand, to the extent that it even supports hardware accelerated graphics
1130 2013-11-12 16:40:42 <TD> BlueMatt has some experience of running a network crawler on ARM. iirc he had to work around some bugs but that may have been with a much older JVM
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1132 2013-11-12 16:40:58 <TD> the main issue with bitcoinj is that it expects to be able to hold the wallet in RAM
1133 2013-11-12 16:41:20 <TD> and it never deletes old transactions, by default (because it was originally built for gui wallets where you want to be able to scroll down the list of all transactions quickly)
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1135 2013-11-12 16:41:41 <TD> you could, of course, remove old transactions yourself once they are buried deep enough, and tune things to ensure you don't run out of RAM. but i guess it depends how frequently frequently means
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1144 2013-11-12 16:45:21 <bitnumus> hmm, thanks TD gives me something to think about at least
1145 2013-11-12 16:45:47 <TD> what is your actual goal? at a higher level?
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1151 2013-11-12 16:54:47 <helo> is bitcoind in 13.10 ppa yet?
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1176 2013-11-12 17:17:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|helo: As of ~3 hours ago, yes
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1179 2013-11-12 17:17:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|helo: https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
1180 2013-11-12 17:17:59 <helo> hah, nice
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1198 2013-11-12 17:30:36 <kezu> i select yes and i get a bunch of yyyyyyy
1199 2013-11-12 17:30:38 <kezu> s
1200 2013-11-12 17:30:40 <helo> could 'bitcoind -daemon' be prompting (but not getting the answer since daemon)?
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1203 2013-11-12 17:31:43 <kezu>  Bitcoin server starting
1204 2013-11-12 17:31:43 <kezu> : Error initializing block database.
1205 2013-11-12 17:31:43 <kezu> Do you want to rebuild the block database now?
1206 2013-11-12 17:32:13 <sipa> kezu: that warning is bogus, it should say "Start with -reindex to rebuild the block database."
1207 2013-11-12 17:32:22 <arioBarzan> to verify a signed message, we need to reconstruct public key from a compact signature. so we use ECDSA_SIG_recover_key_GFp() to do so, right? how secure would it be to transfer the symmetric cipher session keys this way?
1208 2013-11-12 17:32:34 <kezu> well im at a loss
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1210 2013-11-12 17:33:51 <helo> kezu: start like bitcoind -reindex -loadblock=...
1211 2013-11-12 17:34:06 <sipa> loadblocks combinaed with reindex doesn't make sense
1212 2013-11-12 17:34:14 <kezu> = what?
1213 2013-11-12 17:34:58 <helo> i think he's getting that prompt when doing a -loadblock
1214 2013-11-12 17:35:12 <sipa> why?
1215 2013-11-12 17:36:32 <BlueMatt> helo: yes
1216 2013-11-12 17:36:38 <BlueMatt> helo: as of this morning (sorry for the delay)
1217 2013-11-12 17:36:43 <helo> BlueMatt: thanks, you are awesome :)
1218 2013-11-12 17:37:04 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1219 2013-11-12 17:37:30 <BlueMatt> heh, well maybe if I actually got things in on time...
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1222 2013-11-12 17:38:18 <helo> sipa: not sure why he's getting it... afaik it was a clean datadir
1223 2013-11-12 17:38:21 <BlueMatt> bitnumus: the jdk on arm works pretty well, it was just some strange network bugs that were only triggered by dnsseed because it was opening/closing a ton of connections really fast
1224 2013-11-12 17:39:26 <kezu> well im off to bed been up well over 24 hours thanks sipa and helo for trying to help get me started but im way too tired now
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1226 2013-11-12 17:39:42 <kezu> will try again after i wake up hanks again
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1229 2013-11-12 17:40:46 <bitnumus> BlueMatt, hey, i've just been looking at your name somewhere when looking for libdb4.8 for armhf
1230 2013-11-12 17:40:53 <bitnumus> are you aware of any builds of it ?
1231 2013-11-12 17:41:11 <BlueMatt> not afaik
1232 2013-11-12 17:41:15 <BlueMatt> but its easy to build yourself
1233 2013-11-12 17:41:22 <bitnumus> or maybe that was a different page :P
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1259 2013-11-12 18:02:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BlueMatt: Was adding saucy to launchpad just a matter of ticking the box?
1260 2013-11-12 18:02:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or were any tweaks in the code needed?
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1262 2013-11-12 18:03:39 <BlueMatt> well, its not a box, but it was essentially just finding the right file on my drive that I used for uploading bdb and then changing the tag on the changelog
1263 2013-11-12 18:04:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, I mean, just marking it as "make available to saucy"
1264 2013-11-12 18:04:40 <BlueMatt> pretty much
1265 2013-11-12 18:05:02 <BlueMatt> (which is why it shouldnt have taken so long...)
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1268 2013-11-12 18:07:21 <Alina-malina> If everyones transactions can be seen by everyone, does it mean that everyonce current balance is also available to see for everyone?
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1272 2013-11-12 18:09:20 <gjs278> Alina-malina yes but you can use different addresses to help with that
1273 2013-11-12 18:10:03 <Alina-malina> gjs278, you mean i have to see that specific address transactions and calculate the balance?
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1277 2013-11-12 18:11:48 <sipa> Alina-malina: you mostly don't know which addresses belong to whom
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1280 2013-11-12 18:12:08 <sipa> you can see the transactions, but you cannot necessarily identify whom they're crediting
1281 2013-11-12 18:12:17 MC1984 has joined
1282 2013-11-12 18:13:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BlueMatt: Are you the only one with access to the ppa?
1283 2013-11-12 18:13:41 <BlueMatt> Im the only one who touches it, but graingert has access as well
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1290 2013-11-12 18:25:32 <warren> wumpus: could we have a "Wallet is disabled!" where the "Wallet is disabled..." message was?
1291 2013-11-12 18:25:42 <warren> wumpus: removing it entirely is less informative
1292 2013-11-12 18:26:27 <sipa> </bikeshedding>
1293 2013-11-12 18:27:48 <warren> sure
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1295 2013-11-12 18:31:38 <warren> sipa: it's obvious in bitcoin-qt but less so in bitcoind, so having an explicit print would be helpful there.  i'm submitting a patch.
1296 2013-11-12 18:32:33 <sipa> doesn't getinfo make it obvious?
1297 2013-11-12 18:33:20 <sipa> anyway, printing it in debug.log won't hurt
1298 2013-11-12 18:33:37 <warren> right
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1305 2013-11-12 18:47:40 <Luke-Jr> Does it make sense to run B-Qt without a wallet? O.o
1306 2013-11-12 18:48:07 random_cat has joined
1307 2013-11-12 18:48:15 <warren> Luke-Jr: no, but prior to that patch bitcoin-qt would just crash uninformatively
1308 2013-11-12 18:48:40 <warren> Luke-Jr: after multi-wallet happens you could conceivably File -> Open wallet
1309 2013-11-12 18:49:01 <sipa> maybe we can add some fancy processing graphs in bitcoin-qt
1310 2013-11-12 18:49:53 <warren> as long as its blue.
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1317 2013-11-12 18:53:25 <Luke-Jr> hm
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1319 2013-11-12 18:53:37 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I want to add #bitcoin-watch to it :D
1320 2013-11-12 18:53:48 <Luke-Jr> it's getting to be too much load for an IRC bot
1321 2013-11-12 18:53:52 <sipa> fine by me
1322 2013-11-12 18:54:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: even with displaying off-chain (exchange) transactions?
1323 2013-11-12 18:54:57 <gmaxwell> yet another feature I wouldn't want without tor support.
1324 2013-11-12 18:55:20 <gmaxwell> I think as a general rule we shouldn't add things that have to poll centeralized servers, but if we do it should really only be via tor.
1325 2013-11-12 18:56:09 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no
1326 2013-11-12 18:56:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: :<
1327 2013-11-12 18:56:53 <sipa> i don't think we should privilege any centralized service
1328 2013-11-12 18:56:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hard to be realtime through tor
1329 2013-11-12 18:57:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa: could make host/port configurable
1330 2013-11-12 18:57:44 <Luke-Jr> if really needed, maybe make an abstract protocol that can be used for any off-chain transactions
1331 2013-11-12 18:57:51 <Luke-Jr> but then it's more work XD
1332 2013-11-12 18:58:31 <warren> If someone wants a branded client they can make one.
1333 2013-11-12 18:58:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: maybe an option "Use centralised services: No / Only when Tor enabled / Yes"
1334 2013-11-12 18:58:52 <sipa> yeah, i think that's outside of our scope
1335 2013-11-12 18:58:57 <gmaxwell> it's weird that we have bandwidth stats now that are only available in qt. :(
1336 2013-11-12 18:59:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: there's an RPC for it
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1339 2013-11-12 18:59:27 <gmaxwell> oh, why isn't it in getinfo?
1340 2013-11-12 18:59:36 <Luke-Jr> what will make wumpus et al happy with --with-system-leveldb?
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1342 2013-11-12 18:59:46 <MC1984> .
1343 2013-11-12 18:59:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yuck
1344 2013-11-12 18:59:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: getnettotals
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1346 2013-11-12 19:00:28 <warren> Luke-Jr: don't know about other folks here, but I'm against that.
1347 2013-11-12 19:00:57 <warren> gmaxwell: btw, regarding red hat bugzilla, where did you see the secp256k1 bug closed?  it isn't.
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1350 2013-11-12 19:01:08 <Luke-Jr> warren: it's going to happen regardless of being merged
1351 2013-11-12 19:01:17 <gmaxwell> warren: yea, I saw, for some reason I got added to a bunch of other ones.
1352 2013-11-12 19:01:31 <Luke-Jr> we can either merge it and make sure it has the sufficient warnings in place, or let people do their own half-hazard patchwork
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1355 2013-11-12 19:02:05 <Luke-Jr> how about --with-system-leveldb='I understand the risks' ?
1356 2013-11-12 19:02:23 <warren> we do not want to encourage that at all
1357 2013-11-12 19:02:32 <Luke-Jr> warren: it's not encouraged
1358 2013-11-12 19:02:53 <Luke-Jr> and really, we do, just not until packagers are doing it properly
1359 2013-11-12 19:03:14 <warren> Luke-Jr: packagers will never do it properly
1360 2013-11-12 19:03:19 <Luke-Jr> warren: they will someday
1361 2013-11-12 19:03:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: perhaps we should figure out how to add code so it won't compile/run with the wrong leveldb version.
1362 2013-11-12 19:03:49 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1363 2013-11-12 19:03:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: "wrong leveldb version" is not well-defined in this case
1364 2013-11-12 19:04:06 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1365 2013-11-12 19:04:12 <gmaxwell> The problem is that OS vendors will apply "bugfixes" without moving the version number.
1366 2013-11-12 19:04:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: for example, someone might build 0.8.1 against the newer leveldb we've audited
1367 2013-11-12 19:04:24 <Luke-Jr> otoh, people shouldn't be building 0.8.1 period
1368 2013-11-12 19:04:39 <gmaxwell> right, or if they are they should be applying patches anyways.
1369 2013-11-12 19:04:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that's why it should require explicit flag to do
1370 2013-11-12 19:04:58 <warren> gmaxwell: we should explicitly fork our leveldb and rename functions to make it incompatible with system leveldb
1371 2013-11-12 19:05:12 <Luke-Jr> warren: that will be more annoying to patch
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1373 2013-11-12 19:05:19 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I don't think we can make it any safer than crazy distro people carrying a patch. So I think we should probably leave them carrying a patch.
1374 2013-11-12 19:05:24 bitspill has joined
1375 2013-11-12 19:05:26 <gmaxwell> A configure flag is explicit support.
1376 2013-11-12 19:05:27 <warren> there's no other way to stop the distro packagers from getting it wrong
1377 2013-11-12 19:05:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not if it's undocumented and gives out warnings
1378 2013-11-12 19:05:49 <warren> distros will ignore warnings
1379 2013-11-12 19:05:53 <Luke-Jr> warren: you're also hurting distros that get it right
1380 2013-11-12 19:05:55 <warren> make it explicitly incompatible
1381 2013-11-12 19:06:18 <Luke-Jr> also, this is a risk people *should* be able to take
1382 2013-11-12 19:06:41 <Luke-Jr> on their own
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1385 2013-11-12 19:07:25 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the patch to add the option to autotools is small and unlikely to break. I suggest you drop it before we end up getting convinced by warren's polar opposite argument. :)
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1387 2013-11-12 19:08:08 <Luke-Jr> meh
1388 2013-11-12 19:08:12 * Luke-Jr goes back to other autotools fixups
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1400 2013-11-12 19:15:59 <devrandom> BlueMatt: does the current bitcoinj work well with gradle by any chance?
1401 2013-11-12 19:16:54 <BlueMatt> nfc, try it and find out?
1402 2013-11-12 19:17:21 Alan-1 has joined
1403 2013-11-12 19:18:42 <devrandom> OK... trying maven import
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1407 2013-11-12 19:26:16 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=331444.0  < does this appear to be a license violating copy of bfgminer?
1408 2013-11-12 19:29:15 wallet43 has joined
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1410 2013-11-12 19:32:10 <BlueMatt> lol, what boards exist on bitcointalk that arent public?
1411 2013-11-12 19:32:29 TD has joined
1412 2013-11-12 19:33:22 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: trashcan, I moved it after asking.
1413 2013-11-12 19:33:34 <BlueMatt> ahh
1414 2013-11-12 19:33:38 <gmaxwell> (there are two others: staff and donors)
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1419 2013-11-12 19:35:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: "The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."
1420 2013-11-12 19:35:35 <devrandom> BlueMatt: BitcoinJ worked great in intellij as maven import, all tests pass
1421 2013-11-12 19:35:44 <BlueMatt> nice!
1422 2013-11-12 19:36:17 <devrandom> except for wallettemplate
1423 2013-11-12 19:36:20 <TD> devrandom: it's nice when it really works :)
1424 2013-11-12 19:36:24 <TD> devrandom: yeah i am thinking of taking that out
1425 2013-11-12 19:36:36 <TD> devrandom: intellij has a bug where it can't handle submodules needing a higher language/jdk level than the parent
1426 2013-11-12 19:36:44 <TD> wallet-template is java 8 the rest is java 6, so it gets confused
1427 2013-11-12 19:36:58 chmod755 has joined
1428 2013-11-12 19:37:07 <TD> devrandom: a simple fix is to go into settings, maven, ignored files and then tick the box next to wallet-template
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1430 2013-11-12 19:37:46 <Alina-malina> sipa, yes i understand that i cant know whom it belogs, but i can see how much money are currently on that specific address right?
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1432 2013-11-12 19:38:55 <devrandom> TD got it
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1434 2013-11-12 19:39:48 <devrandom> TD: I want to build an example that listens to the blockchain and takes queries for balance and unspent TX for addresses... which example/tool is best to start from?
1435 2013-11-12 19:40:02 <sipa> Alina-malina: yes
1436 2013-11-12 19:40:15 <Alina-malina> super
1437 2013-11-12 19:40:40 <TD> devrandom: the code can't do that currently, though it's a common wish. you'd want to upgrade the full verification mode so it can index the UTXO set by address. then you can do h2 sql queries to look up the data you want.
1438 2013-11-12 19:41:06 <TD> devrandom: basically the db it builds lacks the right columns/indexes to look up unspent outs by address
1439 2013-11-12 19:41:33 <TD> (i don't think it'd be very complicated to add)
1440 2013-11-12 19:41:55 <devrandom> I don't need it for arbitrary addresses
1441 2013-11-12 19:41:59 <TD> ah, ok
1442 2013-11-12 19:42:07 <TD> how many, roughly?
1443 2013-11-12 19:42:13 <devrandom> maybe hundreds or thousands
1444 2013-11-12 19:42:19 <TD> you can just add them to the wallet, i think
1445 2013-11-12 19:42:30 owowo has joined
1446 2013-11-12 19:42:34 <TD> the wallet code doesn't scale very well. try it and see how slow it gets. i want to optimize this anyway
1447 2013-11-12 19:42:46 <devrandom> okay, I can take on optimizing it
1448 2013-11-12 19:42:48 <TD> oh, actually, you can only add keys to the wallet.
1449 2013-11-12 19:43:01 <TD> it can't hold arbitrary scripts. i guess that'd also need fixing unless you know the pubkeys
1450 2013-11-12 19:43:16 <devrandom> I think I can get pubkeys in this use case
1451 2013-11-12 19:43:42 <Alina-malina> So the public key is the bitcoin address of the sender right?
1452 2013-11-12 19:43:56 <TD> well, then it should be straightforward. use WalletAppKit, add the keys (ideally with the right timestamps), start it up and it'll scan all the transactions into the wallet. you can then fetch the transactions out of it
1453 2013-11-12 19:43:58 <devrandom> not so simple ;)
1454 2013-11-12 19:44:17 <TD> the API hasn't changed much since you last worked with it - it's pretty stable. but WalletAppKit eliminates a lot of the boilerplate
1455 2013-11-12 19:44:24 <TD> Alina-malina: no
1456 2013-11-12 19:44:29 <TD> Alina-malina: an address is an alternative form of a key.
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1458 2013-11-12 19:45:57 <devrandom> okay, that sounds easy
1459 2013-11-12 19:46:00 <Alina-malina> so where the digital signature? how it is being recognized by other nodes when making transaction? is it being send separately?
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1462 2013-11-12 19:46:26 <devrandom> TD: thank you
1463 2013-11-12 19:46:38 <devrandom> WalletAppKit sounds great
1464 2013-11-12 19:46:49 <TD> devrandom: if you look at the wallettemplate Main.java class, you can see how it's used
1465 2013-11-12 19:47:06 <TD> devrandom: if you want a GUI frontend for running the queries, you can as well just copy/paste that app and use it as a starting point
1466 2013-11-12 19:47:58 <TD> Alina-malina: your best bet for learning these things is to review the wiki, or a public tutorial on how the protocol works
1467 2013-11-12 19:48:03 <TD> Alina-malina: IRC is not the right forum for that
1468 2013-11-12 19:48:08 imton has joined
1469 2013-11-12 19:48:44 <Alina-malina> TD, ok thanks for your help, i try all possible resources, so i have questions and it is a bit diffcult for me to understand thats why i come here for help, thanks!
1470 2013-11-12 19:48:52 <devrandom> TD: I want it to have a JSON RPC API on the other end
1471 2013-11-12 19:49:02 <TD> ok
1472 2013-11-12 19:49:54 <TD> if REST is OK, check out v
1473 2013-11-12 19:49:55 <TD> http://dropwizard.codahale.com/
1474 2013-11-12 19:51:39 <devrandom> looks good
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1477 2013-11-12 19:53:21 <Alina-malina> TD, what language is that website written, it is incredibly fast, is that node.js?
1478 2013-11-12 19:53:38 <TD> which website?
1479 2013-11-12 19:53:45 <Alina-malina> codahale.com
1480 2013-11-12 19:54:01 <TD> java, i'd assume, given that dropwizard is a java library
1481 2013-11-12 19:54:09 <TD> although it could also be just a static file server
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1485 2013-11-12 19:54:21 <Alina-malina> yes i guess it is static, it is so wonderfully fast
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1489 2013-11-12 19:59:00 <devrandom> TD: blockchain downloaded in under 2 minutes... nice! :)
1490 2013-11-12 19:59:14 <TD> the server claims to be apache with mod_pagespeed
1491 2013-11-12 19:59:15 <devrandom> oh wait, that's testnet
1492 2013-11-12 19:59:41 <TD> devrandom: it isn't supposed to take very long, however, to skip the part of the chain before your first key birthday requires the checkpoints feature to be active. again, see wallet-template for an example
1493 2013-11-12 19:59:53 <TD> devrandom: and you need to connect it to mainnet, yes :)
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1495 2013-11-12 20:01:33 <devrandom> got it
1496 2013-11-12 20:02:44 <TD> ye gods
1497 2013-11-12 20:02:52 <TD> i just saw lose spelled as "loose" in a music video
1498 2013-11-12 20:02:59 <TD> does nobody proofread these things?
1499 2013-11-12 20:03:22 <Ry4an> TD no: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/11/09/rob-ford-billboard_n_4244616.html
1500 2013-11-12 20:03:48 <TD> typos are one thing. misspellings are another ...
1501 2013-11-12 20:03:49 bitspill has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1502 2013-11-12 20:03:52 <TD> although that is quite ironic
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1504 2013-11-12 20:07:08 GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
1505 2013-11-12 20:08:07 <TD> best subver so far - /Satoshi:0.8.99/Gangnam Style:2.0/
1506 2013-11-12 20:09:25 <null> well, we call them looser so we can tell them to screw themselves, right?
1507 2013-11-12 20:09:53 <tigereye> TD, if it doesn't have the red squiggly underneath it, it's gotta be good
1508 2013-11-12 20:10:06 <tigereye> it's the media equivalent of "It builds. Ship it!"
1509 2013-11-12 20:10:57 MobPhone has joined
1510 2013-11-12 20:12:13 jtimon has joined
1511 2013-11-12 20:12:34 AndyOfiesh has joined
1512 2013-11-12 20:12:59 <Ry4an> tigereye++
1513 2013-11-12 20:13:20 miner232323 has quit (Quit: miner232323)
1514 2013-11-12 20:13:52 <tigereye> Ry4an, i saw that billboard this morning
1515 2013-11-12 20:14:16 <tigereye> not sure how it's OK to use the city logo like that
1516 2013-11-12 20:14:22 <tigereye> ...the billboard doesn't seem like official city business
1517 2013-11-12 20:15:07 miner232323 has joined
1518 2013-11-12 20:16:09 <Ry4an> I don't think anyone will mistake it for a city publication, right?
1519 2013-11-12 20:18:07 reizuki__ has joined
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1521 2013-11-12 20:18:07 reizuki__ has joined
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1523 2013-11-12 20:19:29 <Luke-Jr> is there a quick summary of what bitcoin-cli is anywhere?
1524 2013-11-12 20:19:52 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1525 2013-11-12 20:19:56 <Luke-Jr> I thought it was just the JSON-RPC tester tool split out, but it seems to include leveldb? or is that a bug?
1526 2013-11-12 20:20:45 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it's bitcoind <command>
1527 2013-11-12 20:20:55 <sipa> and that it includes leveldb is because of dependency hell
1528 2013-11-12 20:21:16 <Luke-Jr> oooooh, because it uses libbitcoin.a bits? :/
1529 2013-11-12 20:21:37 <sipa> look at the pull request
1530 2013-11-12 20:21:46 <Luke-Jr> which one was it?
1531 2013-11-12 20:22:28 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3082
1532 2013-11-12 20:22:49 eristisk has joined
1533 2013-11-12 20:22:59 <Luke-Jr> thx
1534 2013-11-12 20:23:12 <sipa> actually, 3072
1535 2013-11-12 20:23:17 <Luke-Jr> doh, wumpus already tried it
1536 2013-11-12 20:23:34 zer0def has joined
1537 2013-11-12 20:23:36 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3072#issuecomment-26201830
1538 2013-11-12 20:23:52 <sipa> we could move those modules to a separate .a
1539 2013-11-12 20:24:17 <Luke-Jr> why does bitcoin-cli need any of that?
1540 2013-11-12 20:24:29 <hno> Hm... why is my bitcoind built from master claiming to be 0.8.2-747 version?
1541 2013-11-12 20:24:32 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1542 2013-11-12 20:24:35 <Luke-Jr> shouldn't it just be Boost::Spirit::JSON, and some Boost networking stuff?
1543 2013-11-12 20:24:39 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yup
1544 2013-11-12 20:24:48 <Luke-Jr> hno: 0.8.3+ were on branches
1545 2013-11-12 20:24:50 <sipa> hno: because master currently branches off 0.8.2
1546 2013-11-12 20:25:06 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that's the right solution, i guess
1547 2013-11-12 20:25:13 <sipa> Luke-Jr: and a bit of option parsing i guess
1548 2013-11-12 20:25:17 <Luke-Jr> ah
1549 2013-11-12 20:25:33 <hno> Should I be using a branch, or is master the right place for doing stuff?
1550 2013-11-12 20:25:57 <sipa> hno: depends for whAT?
1551 2013-11-12 20:26:08 <sipa> s/AT/at/
1552 2013-11-12 20:26:30 <Luke-Jr> hno: master is the latest untested code; 0.8.x is the most recent stable branch (which are on Gitorious in the bitcoind-stable repo)
1553 2013-11-12 20:26:41 <hno> getting familiar with the code, understanding the block propagation issue talked about earlier and some other minor issues.
1554 2013-11-12 20:26:42 agnostic98 has joined
1555 2013-11-12 20:26:54 <Luke-Jr> where "untested" means "passed some peer review in pull requests, but not widely tested"
1556 2013-11-12 20:27:00 bitbitbyte has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
1557 2013-11-12 20:27:12 <Luke-Jr> hno: master is probably clearer code, where it differs
1558 2013-11-12 20:27:23 <sipa> and there's been some changes to the network code in master since the last release
1559 2013-11-12 20:27:26 reneg_ has joined
1560 2013-11-12 20:27:38 <hno> that's fine. Just wondering if master is the active development branch, or if most active development is taking place on some other branch at the moment.
1561 2013-11-12 20:27:47 <sipa> master is where development happens
1562 2013-11-12 20:27:49 bitbitbyte has joined
1563 2013-11-12 20:28:09 <hno> ok. so master it the right, just oddly versioned.
1564 2013-11-12 20:28:26 <sipa> internally, master is 0.8.99
1565 2013-11-12 20:28:42 <hno> internally as in what?
1566 2013-11-12 20:29:02 <sipa> getinfo will give you that number
1567 2013-11-12 20:29:18 <warren> hno: hey, great to see another familiar name. =)
1568 2013-11-12 20:29:26 <sipa> the build label is generated through git describe, so it includes which commit id was used
1569 2013-11-12 20:29:27 <hno> hi warren.
1570 2013-11-12 20:31:01 <hno> warren, ended up doing stuff for KnCMiner by accident, so now I am here :)
1571 2013-11-12 20:31:18 <warren> hno: yes, lots of accidents here. =)
1572 2013-11-12 20:31:30 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1573 2013-11-12 20:31:48 <hno> was supposed to write Linux drivers for OpenRISC embedded platforms.
1574 2013-11-12 20:37:11 jegz has joined
1575 2013-11-12 20:37:36 vub has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1576 2013-11-12 20:37:38 <hno> not that I mind the change of direction. It's been an truly amazing journey this year. But I suppose to most others it's like I dropped off the visible radar for a long time.
1577 2013-11-12 20:39:20 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1578 2013-11-12 20:39:23 Uglux has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1579 2013-11-12 20:40:09 <warren> hno: what is your interest in dev here now?
1580 2013-11-12 20:42:41 Krellan_ has joined
1581 2013-11-12 20:42:58 <hno> At the moment I am lookig into some block propagation issues observed, and secring bitcoin network infrastructure for a pool. And with my background in scaleable network application layer I'd like to contiue investigating the network side of things, but only scratching on the surface so far.
1582 2013-11-12 20:43:29 <hno> s/secring/securing/
1583 2013-11-12 20:43:30 reneg_ has joined
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1585 2013-11-12 20:44:20 Krellan_ has joined
1586 2013-11-12 20:45:09 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1587 2013-11-12 20:45:16 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1588 2013-11-12 20:45:47 patcon has joined
1589 2013-11-12 20:47:42 Starduster has joined
1590 2013-11-12 20:49:06 neep3r has joined
1591 2013-11-12 20:49:10 <Luke-Jr> hno: last time i looked through that code, it was quite a mess ;p
1592 2013-11-12 20:49:14 <Luke-Jr> (in bitcoind)
1593 2013-11-12 20:50:39 arioBarzan has joined
1594 2013-11-12 20:50:46 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1595 2013-11-12 20:52:42 neep3r has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1596 2013-11-12 20:53:16 neep3r has joined
1597 2013-11-12 20:54:35 cityding0 has joined
1598 2013-11-12 20:55:56 Rluner1 has joined
1599 2013-11-12 20:56:45 <cityding0> whats the best way find the json / raw data of a transaction? been trying to google to no hope :(
1600 2013-11-12 20:57:15 <sipa> using what?
1601 2013-11-12 20:57:27 <arioBarzan> when we want to verify messages signed by bitcoind, we use ECDSA_SIG_recover_key_GFp() to reconstruct public key from a compact signature, right? so here is my question. couldn't we similarly reconstruct public key from <sig> so that there would be no need to know whole scriptSig which is "<sig><pubKey>" ?
1602 2013-11-12 20:57:34 <Luke-Jr> make -j200 brings me to a crawl :o
1603 2013-11-12 20:57:35 [1]Rluner has joined
1604 2013-11-12 20:57:49 <sipa> arioBarzan: yes, we could
1605 2013-11-12 20:57:59 <Luke-Jr> cityding0: reindex bitcoind with txindex=1 and getrawtransaction
1606 2013-11-12 20:58:09 <sipa> arioBarzan: except it would be a hard fork that requires all full nodes and wallet software to change
1607 2013-11-12 20:58:27 Rluner has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1613 2013-11-12 21:01:52 <Luke-Jr> woo, fixed the slew of hundreds of warnings
1614 2013-11-12 21:01:57 <arioBarzan> assuming we reconstructed <pubKey> from <sig> the script should change from "<sig> <pubKey> OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG" to something else. would it be more complex? I'm just curious to know, and understand the hard fork issue prevent such idea to be implemented.
1615 2013-11-12 21:01:57 richcollins has joined
1616 2013-11-12 21:02:30 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: to what?
1617 2013-11-12 21:03:27 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: I would be happy if you guys tell to what it should change?
1618 2013-11-12 21:03:36 owowo has quit (Quit: °!°                         ~~ S4n1tY 1S Fut1l3 ~~                          °!°)
1619 2013-11-12 21:03:37 bitbitbyte has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1620 2013-11-12 21:03:41 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: as sipa mentioned, it would be a hardfork
1621 2013-11-12 21:03:58 <Luke-Jr> you would need an OP_KEYRECOVERY
1622 2013-11-12 21:04:33 <sipa> arioBarzan: the change itself would be trivial
1623 2013-11-12 21:04:40 KaosMcRage has left ()
1624 2013-11-12 21:04:56 <sipa> arioBarzan: it's the fact that everyone in the entire network needs to agree that it's necessary
1625 2013-11-12 21:05:26 <BlueMatt> heeyyy, if we had stuck with wx, we could now (finally) be included in distro repos!
1626 2013-11-12 21:06:08 <Luke-Jr> lol
1627 2013-11-12 21:06:13 <arioBarzan> it could be another valid script for receiving coins, as p2sh was added at a later time.
1628 2013-11-12 21:06:17 neep3r has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1629 2013-11-12 21:06:27 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: P2SH only required a softfork
1630 2013-11-12 21:06:40 AusBitBank has joined
1631 2013-11-12 21:06:45 <Luke-Jr> the only way to do key recovery as a softfork would be VERY ugly
1632 2013-11-12 21:06:51 <Luke-Jr> almost as ugly as P2SH was
1633 2013-11-12 21:07:03 <Luke-Jr> although, we *could* have added it as part of P2SH.. :/
1634 2013-11-12 21:07:23 <arioBarzan> couldn't you add it now?
1635 2013-11-12 21:07:29 <Luke-Jr> no
1636 2013-11-12 21:07:35 <Luke-Jr> now it'd be a hardfork on top of P2SH
1637 2013-11-12 21:07:37 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1638 2013-11-12 21:07:58 <Luke-Jr> the only way to do it as a softfork now would be to basically do P2SH all over again
1639 2013-11-12 21:08:01 <Luke-Jr> and it's not worth it really
1640 2013-11-12 21:08:02 <hno> Luke-Jr, yes it's not the pretties code I have seen, but it's quite readable something which I can not say about some other projects..
1641 2013-11-12 21:09:07 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
1642 2013-11-12 21:09:42 mappum has joined
1643 2013-11-12 21:10:36 <arioBarzan> putting that aside, could one write his own code for such a recovery and then remove all <pubKey>s from his blocks saved on disk, to save disk space?
1644 2013-11-12 21:10:52 groglogic has joined
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1647 2013-11-12 21:11:36 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: likely
1648 2013-11-12 21:11:42 <sipa> arioBarzan: yes, that should be possible
1649 2013-11-12 21:11:46 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: perhaps remove hashes too
1650 2013-11-12 21:11:56 <sipa> there are many things that could be done there
1651 2013-11-12 21:12:10 <sipa> but how about we just try to get rid of blocks on disks in the first place? :p
1652 2013-11-12 21:12:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: huh why are you saying yes to that? :P
1653 2013-11-12 21:12:19 <gmaxwell> yea exactly.
1654 2013-11-12 21:12:20 <Luke-Jr> once all hashes are removed, you could even put some nice lzma2 compression on top! :P
1655 2013-11-12 21:12:27 <gmaxwell> You can remove things from the blocks because they're not used except for serving them.
1656 2013-11-12 21:12:41 <Luke-Jr> sipa: getting rid of them means reduced security ;/
1657 2013-11-12 21:12:47 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no?
1658 2013-11-12 21:13:00 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it makes bootstrapping new nodes harder
1659 2013-11-12 21:13:02 <sipa> it means less ability to serve them to others
1660 2013-11-12 21:13:13 <Luke-Jr> yes, I mean on a global basis
1661 2013-11-12 21:13:14 <sipa> yes, that's true, but it doesn't change security
1662 2013-11-12 21:13:36 <Luke-Jr> unless we use a DHT
1663 2013-11-12 21:13:37 * Luke-Jr hides
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1665 2013-11-12 21:17:53 debiantoruser has joined
1666 2013-11-12 21:18:01 groglogic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1667 2013-11-12 21:19:29 <hno> sipa, stability and availability of the history is a security aspect imho.
1668 2013-11-12 21:22:37 mappum has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1669 2013-11-12 21:23:03 mappum has joined
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1676 2013-11-12 21:25:50 <sipa> hno: right, availability is
1677 2013-11-12 21:26:32 <arioBarzan> the point is apparently parts of the blockchain are computable from other parts. so if the code was already written to handle this, then based on the trade off between disk space and computation resources, one could manage his version of bitcoin on his node based on his level of available resources (cpu and disk).
1678 2013-11-12 21:27:38 erans__ has joined
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1680 2013-11-12 21:27:53 <sipa> there is also an aspect of engineering and testing that is needed
1681 2013-11-12 21:28:04 <sipa> but yes, it can be done
1682 2013-11-12 21:28:40 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1683 2013-11-12 21:29:20 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1684 2013-11-12 21:29:59 erans_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1685 2013-11-12 21:31:24 mapppum has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1686 2013-11-12 21:31:49 <arioBarzan> I wish there were many more devs working on bitcoin project. you guys are too busy so usually there remain no time to spend on these kind of optimizations.
1687 2013-11-12 21:32:26 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1688 2013-11-12 21:33:19 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: its not an interesting optimization for the most part.
1689 2013-11-12 21:33:47 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: you can get on the order of 2:1 or so from schemes like this, at the expense of making serving a block to another user very computationally expensive.
1690 2013-11-12 21:34:23 <gmaxwell> (and having a bunch of potentially buggy code that could break the network)
1691 2013-11-12 21:34:26 damethos has joined
1692 2013-11-12 21:34:28 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: unless the p2p protocol also uses a compressed form
1693 2013-11-12 21:34:35 <Luke-Jr> then you just slow down validation
1694 2013-11-12 21:34:39 <Luke-Jr> maybe
1695 2013-11-12 21:35:13 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: there is a lot of compression that you can't get from a single block at a time ... but by all means, someone should create an alternative relay protocol that does snazzy compression.
1696 2013-11-12 21:35:31 <gmaxwell> Might be very useful in some contexts... this doesn't have to block on the development of the reference software.
1697 2013-11-12 21:35:33 <sipa> you cannot compress or decompress without knowing the txo's spent by the block
1698 2013-11-12 21:35:46 rethaw has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1699 2013-11-12 21:35:49 <sipa> well, not that type of compression
1700 2013-11-12 21:36:19 thelorax123 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1701 2013-11-12 21:36:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you could remove nBits
1702 2013-11-12 21:37:02 ThomasV has joined
1703 2013-11-12 21:37:05 <phantomcircuit> and the version number
1704 2013-11-12 21:37:17 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: oh wow you've saved 64 bits ! big saver! :P
1705 2013-11-12 21:37:21 thelorax123 has joined
1706 2013-11-12 21:37:31 <arioBarzan> how about some nodes who might not want serve blocks to other nodes, for e.g. like mobile devices who have limited disk space? there could be two versions of nodes, one of light and a little selfish so people could run it more easily on their tablets and phones
1707 2013-11-12 21:37:41 <gmaxwell> ...
1708 2013-11-12 21:37:45 <phantomcircuit> i cant think of anything else significant you could do without building a giant dictionary of public keys
1709 2013-11-12 21:37:55 rethaw has joined
1710 2013-11-12 21:38:31 <sipa> arioBarzan: thowe don't need the blocks *at all*
1711 2013-11-12 21:38:31 <helo> arioBarzan: look up "SPV"
1712 2013-11-12 21:39:17 <sipa> and they don't have them, *today*
1713 2013-11-12 21:43:37 reneg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1714 2013-11-12 21:43:37 arioBarzan has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1715 2013-11-12 21:43:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, other than building a giant dictionary for public keys
1716 2013-11-12 21:44:12 <phantomcircuit> what compression could you really do?
1717 2013-11-12 21:44:25 kill\switch has joined
1718 2013-11-12 21:44:28 <sipa> on disk or in transit?
1719 2013-11-12 21:44:41 <phantomcircuit> on disk
1720 2013-11-12 21:44:41 <matjeh> if i want to accept bitcoin payments on my website for multiple customers, would running an instance of bitcoind and poking it from using the rpc calls from my backend code to generate addressess, and notify the backend on payments using -walletnotify= be a good way to go? (if i didnt feel like using bitpay)
1721 2013-11-12 21:45:03 <sipa> phantomcircuit: store transactions using a 32-bit or 64-bit id
1722 2013-11-12 21:45:04 <kjj> read the forums.  several discussions of that there
1723 2013-11-12 21:45:07 <phantomcircuit> you could build a gzip dictionary from the blocks and then use it
1724 2013-11-12 21:45:24 <phantomcircuit> but something tells me that wouldn't help a lot
1725 2013-11-12 21:45:28 <sipa> phantomcircuit: and make blocks lists of those, and have prevouts refer to those
1726 2013-11-12 21:45:40 <phantomcircuit> sipa, oh for the utxo
1727 2013-11-12 21:45:43 <sipa> no
1728 2013-11-12 21:46:06 <phantomcircuit> oh i see
1729 2013-11-12 21:46:10 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1730 2013-11-12 21:46:10 * Luke-Jr kicks pulltester for breaking for  no reason
1731 2013-11-12 21:46:25 <sipa> phantomcircuit: probably bad for latency/seeks/cpu
1732 2013-11-12 21:46:30 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1733 2013-11-12 21:46:40 Guyver2 has quit (Quit: :))
1734 2013-11-12 21:46:59 <helo> matjeh: bitcoind isn't really designed to scale to huge numbers of wallet transactions. things tend to get slow if you have too many in there.
1735 2013-11-12 21:47:13 <phantomcircuit> alternatively you could just cut the txid's short at 32 bits and treat values as lists of transactions
1736 2013-11-12 21:47:23 <phantomcircuit> that probably wouldn't have a major impact
1737 2013-11-12 21:47:40 reneg_ has joined
1738 2013-11-12 21:47:47 <phantomcircuit> helo, that's really only true if you have tens of thousands of transactions
1739 2013-11-12 21:47:55 <phantomcircuit> and not enough ram for the wallet
1740 2013-11-12 21:48:02 <sipa> or use blkid:txnum:txoutnum, with blkid sequentially assigmed 32-bit numbers
1741 2013-11-12 21:48:17 <phantomcircuit> sipa, or even var_uint
1742 2013-11-12 21:48:19 * phantomcircuit runs
1743 2013-11-12 21:48:21 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1744 2013-11-12 21:48:30 <helo> phantomcircuit: i'm only saying that based on various reports of slowness, but i suppose memory may have been their problem
1745 2013-11-12 21:48:40 * sipa proposes an adaptive arithmetic coder
1746 2013-11-12 21:48:48 <phantomcircuit> helo, it was very much true for 0.6 and mostly true for 0.7
1747 2013-11-12 21:48:51 <phantomcircuit> it's much less true for 0.8
1748 2013-11-12 21:48:59 <Luke-Jr> we could just relay the block hashes and bruteforce the content
1749 2013-11-12 21:49:06 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, lol
1750 2013-11-12 21:49:25 <sipa> prunecoin
1751 2013-11-12 21:49:54 <phantomcircuit> helo, currently the only real issue is if you trigger the fractal complexity logic in IsConfirmed and when loading wallets with tons and tons of entries
1752 2013-11-12 21:50:12 <phantomcircuit> helo, currently each key in the wallet takes about 1ms so if you have 100k keys
1753 2013-11-12 21:50:15 <phantomcircuit> well have fun with that
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1755 2013-11-12 21:57:34 vollova has joined
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1757 2013-11-12 21:59:11 Application has joined
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1760 2013-11-12 22:01:31 <gavinandresen> Anybody want to sponsor a pro poker player?  "I am selling advertisement spots on a collared shirt and hat that I will be wearing…"  (my email spam continues to get more and more interesting all the time)
1761 2013-11-12 22:01:45 <BlueMatt> hah, nice
1762 2013-11-12 22:02:09 K1773R has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1763 2013-11-12 22:02:26 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: did you notice the email from someone trying to sell us "Data masking" services?
1764 2013-11-12 22:02:42 <gmaxwell> "send us all your data and we'll mask out the private stuff for you!"
1765 2013-11-12 22:03:02 yubrew has joined
1766 2013-11-12 22:03:12 abueesp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1767 2013-11-12 22:03:21 <MC1984> has your password been leaked on the internet? type it here and find out!
1768 2013-11-12 22:03:22 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I think I sent that one straight to the trash
1769 2013-11-12 22:03:45 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1770 2013-11-12 22:03:48 <gavinandresen> oooh, I wonder if it has been leaked:  "password_eleven"
1771 2013-11-12 22:03:54 * gavinandresen waits to see...
1772 2013-11-12 22:04:16 roconnor has joined
1773 2013-11-12 22:04:49 <MC1984> that adobe leak should be fun
1774 2013-11-12 22:05:03 <gavinandresen> did somebody find the master key?
1775 2013-11-12 22:05:05 <MC1984> wasnt even salted iirc
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1781 2013-11-12 22:09:29 <gmaxwell> MC1984: but it was encrypted, not hashed... so it's a bit of an odd duck.
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1783 2013-11-12 22:09:46 <midnightmagic> My brother before he quit his job at the physics department at the local uni used to get some *awesome* targetted spam..
1784 2013-11-12 22:10:07 <midnightmagic> I never saw the word "Maverick" used so much.
1785 2013-11-12 22:10:09 saizai has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1786 2013-11-12 22:10:11 <MC1984> how the hell are crypted password strings supposed to work
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1788 2013-11-12 22:10:48 <gmaxwell> MC1984: their server has the decryption string, but it seems the attackers didn't get it, or didn't release it.
1789 2013-11-12 22:11:06 <gmaxwell> Also it was ECB mode, so see the xkcd... its kinda like a crossword puzzle in many dimensions. :P
1790 2013-11-12 22:11:07 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1791 2013-11-12 22:11:39 <Ry4an> MC1984: very poorly.  And it was done in 8-byte-blocks and the "hints" are known, so if an 8-byte window of someone else's password matches yours and their hint is easier than yours (often the password itself) you pw is known.  It's been hilarious.
1792 2013-11-12 22:11:44 <MC1984> why didnt they just salt and hash it like normal people
1793 2013-11-12 22:11:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google sophos adobe breach
1794 2013-11-12 22:11:56 <gribble> Adobe breach THIRTEEN times worse than thought, 38 million users ...: <http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/10/30/adobe-breach-thirteen-times-worse-than-thought-38-million-users-affected/>; Adobe source code breach - Naked Security - Sophos: <http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/10/05/adobe-source-code-breach-is-it-a-gateway-for-new-malware-and-exploits/>; Silk Road bust, Adobe (1 more message)
1795 2013-11-12 22:11:57 <phantomcircuit> it's not encrypted
1796 2013-11-12 22:11:59 <phantomcircuit> they used DES as a has
1797 2013-11-12 22:12:00 <phantomcircuit> h
1798 2013-11-12 22:12:01 <MC1984> at least they got the acrobate source too or whatever
1799 2013-11-12 22:12:01 <phantomcircuit> it's using a standard key
1800 2013-11-12 22:12:02 <phantomcircuit> i forget what it is
1801 2013-11-12 22:12:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;more
1802 2013-11-12 22:12:07 <gribble> breach and Lavabit chutzpah – 60 Sec ...: <http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/10/05/silk-road-bust-adobe-breach-and-lavabit-chutzpah-60-sec-security-video/>
1803 2013-11-12 22:12:08 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, apparently this is from a backup server
1804 2013-11-12 22:12:09 <Ry4an> I'm sure some project manager said "we need to be able to mail people their passwords" and an engineer didn't fight back hard enough.
1805 2013-11-12 22:12:15 debiantoruser has joined
1806 2013-11-12 22:12:18 <kjj> if people just automatically did the right thing, Bruce wouldn't have needed to write Applied Cryptography
1807 2013-11-12 22:12:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|phantomcircuit: 3DES, I thunk
1808 2013-11-12 22:12:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Think*
1809 2013-11-12 22:12:56 <phantomcircuit> michagogo|cloud, so 168 bits
1810 2013-11-12 22:12:58 <phantomcircuit> maybe
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1812 2013-11-12 22:13:56 <phantomcircuit> except there's a ton of known plaintexts
1813 2013-11-12 22:15:00 <phantomcircuit> there are known plaintext attacks which are practical but typically require more data
1814 2013-11-12 22:16:19 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
1815 2013-11-12 22:18:05 <midnightmagic> Dragos' latest update, something about a serial eeprom in his keyboard.
1816 2013-11-12 22:18:07 <midnightmagic> :-/
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1824 2013-11-12 22:25:44 ds is now known as away!ds@gateway/shell/cloudant/x-kqsgikodvlabxlrd|dongshengcn
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1832 2013-11-12 22:40:30 <kjj> I'm now building privkeys by pulling 256 bits from RDRAND and 256 bits from /dev/random, appending them, and taking the modulus of the curve order.  overkill?
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1836 2013-11-12 22:49:18 * jgarzik returns
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1842 2013-11-12 22:56:56 <gmaxwell> kjj: xor would be simpler. :P
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1844 2013-11-12 22:58:00 <kjj> xor won't protect against an imaginary weakness in rdrand
1845 2013-11-12 22:58:10 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1846 2013-11-12 22:58:40 <kjj> I'm not sure that mod will either, but it sure makes the mess harder to extract
1847 2013-11-12 23:00:37 <kjj> this came up from the NIST method of generating 1.5 times as many bits as you want, then using the curve order to whittle it down to the proper key length
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1850 2013-11-12 23:02:35 <gmaxwell> kjj: yes it will.
1851 2013-11-12 23:03:20 <gmaxwell> kjj: if either number is random the result is random with xor. You could let an attacker control your rdrand output. All possible outputs are still equiprobable if /dev/random is equiprobable.
1852 2013-11-12 23:03:57 <gmaxwell> oh you're trying to deal with the order not being a power of 2.
1853 2013-11-12 23:04:12 reneg_ has joined
1854 2013-11-12 23:04:55 <kjj> well, it solves a bunch of problems at once.  being not a power of two improves the erm, mixing, while also ensuring that you don't have a weak key
1855 2013-11-12 23:05:29 <kjj> but I remain convinced that randomly generating a key over the order means you won't need to buy lottery tickets because the wind will deliver some winners soon
1856 2013-11-12 23:06:32 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1857 2013-11-12 23:07:03 <kjj> if both rdrand and /dev/random have weaknesses that reduce the actual entropy to some managable level, any method of blending the two should still leave a huge search space
1858 2013-11-12 23:07:33 iddo has joined
1859 2013-11-12 23:08:05 <kjj> in more positive news, my offline multisig generator now makes PDFs and ISOs
1860 2013-11-12 23:09:15 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1861 2013-11-12 23:09:23 <kjj> I think it would be useful to publish it, but I don't want a bug to cost someone their wallet.
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1864 2013-11-12 23:12:03 <dexX7> how comes that multisig tx are not listed with listunspent?
1865 2013-11-12 23:13:08 <kjj> listunspent is a poor name choice.  it should be listspendable
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1883 2013-11-12 23:41:27 <kezu> i guess its time to uninstall bitcoind and see if i can get it to work maybe my luck will change
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1887 2013-11-12 23:48:13 <warren> my university has unhashed passwords
1888 2013-11-12 23:48:17 <warren> I've seen them manually edit a text file
1889 2013-11-12 23:48:41 <warren> this was about 12 years ago, maybe they improved since then...
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