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   5 2013-11-15 00:03:48 <Luke-Jr> sipa: key id isn't any more honest, it's just wrong :p
   6 2013-11-15 00:04:14 <Luke-Jr> there's nothing wrong with invoice id
   7 2013-11-15 00:04:26 <sipa> not going to discuss this :)
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   9 2013-11-15 00:05:05 <Luke-Jr> only old addresses, with pre-HD wallets, can the address be said to be a key id of a sort
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  12 2013-11-15 00:06:31 <sipa> they're a hash of a public key
  13 2013-11-15 00:06:36 <sipa> how is that not a key id?
  14 2013-11-15 00:06:59 <sipa> and for P2SH, they're the hash of a bitcoin-script-public-key
  15 2013-11-15 00:07:30 <sipa> invoice implies it's being used for an invoice, which is not true for e.g. change
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  17 2013-11-15 00:08:07 <Luke-Jr> well, I didn't mean change "addresses" should be referred to any more than they currently are
  18 2013-11-15 00:08:15 <Luke-Jr> users should never be exposed to those
  19 2013-11-15 00:08:41 <gulli> Wondering what is the best way to make BitcoinJ communicate with Bitcoind. Should I just implement my own RPC code or does BitcoinJ help you in anyway. At first glance it seems to me BitcoinJ has nothing you can use to connect to Bitcoind
  20 2013-11-15 00:08:56 <sipa> gulli: the P2P protocol...?
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  22 2013-11-15 00:09:08 <sipa> Luke-Jr: to be clear: i wasn't talking about what we're exposing to users as transaction destination
  23 2013-11-15 00:09:24 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, that's what I'm talking about ;p
  24 2013-11-15 00:09:31 <gulli> you meen I should connect to bitcoind localhost like it was a peer?
  25 2013-11-15 00:09:34 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i was talking about the base58 strings that encode public key or script hashes
  26 2013-11-15 00:09:37 <Luke-Jr> scriptPubKey or hashCheck works fine for the low-level terminology
  27 2013-11-15 00:09:39 <sipa> gulli: it IS a peer
  28 2013-11-15 00:09:49 <Luke-Jr> same thing
  29 2013-11-15 00:09:58 <gulli> Yeah I know
  30 2013-11-15 00:10:23 <Luke-Jr> base58 strings are only transaction destinations*, not low-level stuff  (* not talking about or dismissing other non-address base58 use)
  31 2013-11-15 00:10:30 <gulli> ok lol, yup it is kinda obvious now
  32 2013-11-15 00:11:13 <sipa> Luke-Jr: here's how I see it: the bitcoin system internally has keys, and coins get assigned to keys (abstracting ecdsa-key vs bitcoin-script-key now)
  33 2013-11-15 00:11:13 <sipa> Luke-Jr: a key can be used as the destination of a payment, in which case it's an address
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  35 2013-11-15 00:11:36 <sipa> but for example a change output is not a payment, it's only an assignment of a coin to a key
  36 2013-11-15 00:11:56 <Luke-Jr> but the key isn't base58, and shouldn't be represented in base58..
  37 2013-11-15 00:12:03 <sipa> fair enough
  38 2013-11-15 00:12:12 <Luke-Jr> base58 only makes sense for addresses/invoiceids
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  40 2013-11-15 00:12:28 <sipa> right, ok, i was confusing things maybe
  41 2013-11-15 00:12:52 <sipa> i wasn't talking about the base58 encoded strings themself, i was talking about the data we're currently encoding in those (=key hashes)
  42 2013-11-15 00:13:06 <Luke-Jr> ah
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  44 2013-11-15 00:13:26 <sipa> anyway, what i suggest is that we stop using the term "address" for anything that isn't intended as a destination of a payment
  45 2013-11-15 00:13:42 <sipa> and use "key id
  46 2013-11-15 00:13:52 <sipa> " instead if we're talking about transaction outputs
  47 2013-11-15 00:14:20 <sipa> with the payment protocol, an address could be a URL
  48 2013-11-15 00:14:24 * Luke-Jr prefers scriptPubKey there, but whatever
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  50 2013-11-15 00:14:44 <Luke-Jr> my only concern is destination-of-payment terminology, as that's what is presently problematic
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  73 2013-11-15 00:38:30 <owowo> Luke-Jr: pm?
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  82 2013-11-15 00:52:51 <lianj> any plans on starting testnet4 anytime soon?
  83 2013-11-15 00:53:13 <gmaxwell> lianj: it's been mentioned. Do you see a need?
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  85 2013-11-15 00:53:59 <lianj> hm not really. just thought it could rip out all the useless blocks and only carry over real test txs :)
  86 2013-11-15 00:54:22 <lianj> testnet3 is at 140k now and about 130mb - that not a real reason though
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  91 2013-11-15 00:57:58 <gmaxwell> lianj: there are a bunch of useful tests scattered in the chain now, so before we can do that we need to go gather up those test cases.
  92 2013-11-15 00:58:12 <gmaxwell> lianj: if you happen to have a list of txn you've found interesting it would be helpful to keep track of them.
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  95 2013-11-15 01:02:57 <lianj> apart from filtering for all nonstandard and looking at them, with the risk of missing some standard but interesting ones, i don't really have a list. but totally agree that the good gist of testnet3 should be found and put into testnet4 and maybe some in blocktester first.
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 112 2013-11-15 01:26:44 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: Whats your opinion about Yifu and Mike Hearn madness?
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 123 2013-11-15 01:38:26 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: since when is mike involved in the coin validation stuff?
 124 2013-11-15 01:38:34 <BlueMatt> aside from some posts supporting some kind of taint tracking system
 125 2013-11-15 01:39:04 <skinnkavaj> taint tracking system haha
 126 2013-11-15 01:39:09 <skinnkavaj> let me tell you how stupid that is
 127 2013-11-15 01:39:15 <BlueMatt> I dont disagree
 128 2013-11-15 01:39:22 <BlueMatt> but thats what its called...
 129 2013-11-15 01:39:45 <gmaxwell> lianj: yea, anything testnet does that blocktester doesn't should be fixed.
 130 2013-11-15 01:40:11 <skinnkavaj> Mike hearn must have lost it
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 132 2013-11-15 01:40:19 <skinnkavaj> Had a lot of respect for him
 133 2013-11-15 01:40:35 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: unless you have a pointer to something he actually /did/, please stop now
 134 2013-11-15 01:41:18 <skinnkavaj> he is supporting a system tracking coins
 135 2013-11-15 01:42:07 <gmaxwell> This discussion isn't really productive.
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 138 2013-11-15 01:42:56 <skinnkavaj> It's very important that we don't start tracking dirty money, there is no dirty money. Only bad people.
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 140 2013-11-15 01:44:06 <Coincide_> Coins will be tracked, regardless of what the community thinks about it. Whether it's the NSA, FBI or companies selling consumer behavior data. The real issue isn't tracking, it's fungibility...that is making some coins worth more/less than others. The better question is, how can we guarantee fungibility through the protocol.
 141 2013-11-15 01:45:56 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: if you bother to read the thread on the foundation forums, you find a reasonable discussion of the issues, including people being reasonable, vs the line of argument you're taking, which isnt to have a discussion, but only an argument
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 144 2013-11-15 01:49:22 <skinnkavaj> This post on Reddit explains how in 1749, a court sided with the Royal Bank of Scotland in its legal challenge to a request for such a blacklist. The RBS argument was that making money responsible for the acts of its previous holders would "render the Notes absolutely useless":
 145 2013-11-15 01:49:22 <skinnkavaj> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1le87j/bitcoin_core_dev_on_stolen_coins_and_transaction/cbycmhk
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 147 2013-11-15 01:50:04 <skinnkavaj> BlueMatt: Bitcoins should not be assessed according to where they have been. That would ruin their fungibility and require coin blacklists that would create a central authority.... But I guess this is what the Bitcoin Foundation wants?
 148 2013-11-15 01:50:29 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: if you insist on not reading the thread which you're basing your accusations on, please go away
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 152 2013-11-15 01:52:30 <skinnkavaj> BlueMatt: Stop refering to some thread on some bitcoin foundation forum, tell me why i am wrong
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 167 2013-11-15 02:07:24 <MC1984> Coincide_: tracking and fingibility are inexorably linked
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 200 2013-11-15 02:53:52 <Skaag> I'm probably not the first person to consider this, so I figured I'd ask: Anyone thought about breaking down the database to small chunks that can be distributed among users, bittorrent style?
 201 2013-11-15 02:54:14 <Skaag> with nodes offering 'tracker' services for chunks
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 204 2013-11-15 02:55:26 <BlueMatt> it already is broken into small chunks....
 205 2013-11-15 02:55:37 <BlueMatt> and there are torrents around (look for bootstrap.dat)
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 207 2013-11-15 02:57:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is there already a spec for a recurring invoice id via HD derivation?
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 306 2013-11-15 04:33:42 <lianj> wth is https://coinvalidation.com/img/validated-small.png
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 310 2013-11-15 04:34:36 <kjj> probably a PNG, but the webserver will give the exact MIME type when you ask for the file.
 311 2013-11-15 04:34:52 <lianj> …
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 468 2013-11-15 06:23:25 <s4lt> Can anyone reference me to a place where target calculation is clearly explained.
 469 2013-11-15 06:23:41 <Luke-Jr> I'm not sure it can be explained clearly and in detail
 470 2013-11-15 06:24:10 <s4lt> I understand the concept well and its relation to difficulty, and that it is related to timestamps on blocks and number of blocks solved in a 2016 block period.
 471 2013-11-15 06:24:24 <s4lt> But, I can't find a clear reference to the actual calculation.
 472 2013-11-15 06:24:29 <Luke-Jr> the source code?
 473 2013-11-15 06:25:01 <s4lt> Was looking for some discussion of it before I went there.
 474 2013-11-15 06:25:07 <s4lt> But, yes, I'll check that out.
 475 2013-11-15 06:26:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is it safe to share a hash of the master-public-key, to someone who might know some of the derived keys?
 476 2013-11-15 06:26:45 <Luke-Jr> derived public keys*
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 482 2013-11-15 06:42:09 <davec> s4lt:
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 484 2013-11-15 06:42:49 <davec> https://github.com/conformal/btcchain/blob/master/difficulty.go  is pretty well commented, might be worth a look
 485 2013-11-15 06:42:52 Guest17561 is now known as sturles
 486 2013-11-15 06:43:18 <davec> calcNextRequiredDifficulty in particular
 487 2013-11-15 06:43:38 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: why not just use the pubkey part of the master public key as the identifier?
 488 2013-11-15 06:43:44 <gmaxwell> e.g. without the chaining code
 489 2013-11-15 06:44:08 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: but yes, a hash is fine.
 490 2013-11-15 06:44:20 <davec> or if you prefer bitcoind source: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1028-L1088
 491 2013-11-15 06:45:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm thinking for stats
 492 2013-11-15 06:45:08 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I guessed.
 493 2013-11-15 06:46:48 <justusranvier> Luke-Jr: Is the bitcoind-9999 ebuild in the Bitcoin overlay abandoned? The sys_leveldb patch hasn't applied in forever.
 494 2013-11-15 06:47:06 <Luke-Jr> justusranvier: it needs redoing.
 495 2013-11-15 06:47:08 <BlueMatt> god, cc60b1f899ec0a69b7c3f25ddf32c4524096a9c5b01cbd84c6d0312a0c478984 (and others like it), broke at least 3 script implementations
 496 2013-11-15 06:47:22 <Luke-Jr> justusranvier: and will probably need constant redoing every week or so until autoconf settles down
 497 2013-11-15 06:47:29 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ?
 498 2013-11-15 06:47:59 <BlueMatt> I know at least 3 non-bitcoind script engines that marked that tx as invalid, though it is not
 499 2013-11-15 06:48:11 <Luke-Jr> why?
 500 2013-11-15 06:48:16 <gmaxwell> because good is stupid.
 501 2013-11-15 06:48:20 <Luke-Jr> …
 502 2013-11-15 06:48:30 <Luke-Jr> I mean technically
 503 2013-11-15 06:48:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: some didn't think checksig could fail, or didn't gracefully handle its failure.
 504 2013-11-15 06:48:44 <BlueMatt> it relies on OP_CHECKSIG pushing 0 on the stack when you try to validate a signature of 0 length
 505 2013-11-15 06:48:59 <BlueMatt> several implementations missed it, because unlike other checksig failure modes, it pushes 0, not fails hard
 506 2013-11-15 06:49:07 <Luke-Jr> lol
 507 2013-11-15 06:49:10 <gmaxwell> (e.g. effectively treaded OP_CHECKSIG like OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY )
 508 2013-11-15 06:50:08 <BlueMatt> (ie too-short stack and for multisig any kind of invalid parameters dont get 0-pushes, they fail the tx)
 509 2013-11-15 06:50:08 <gmaxwell> which is actually a pretty horriffic bug, considering its totally valid to construct such a script.  E.g. Luke had actually proposed a script that would have done that recently!
 510 2013-11-15 06:50:15 <BlueMatt> yep, just goes to show that alternate script/validation engines are faar from being non-beta
 511 2013-11-15 06:50:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I wonder what would have happened if we deployed that
 512 2013-11-15 06:50:52 <BlueMatt> sad, but thats just how the nature of this kind of thing is
 513 2013-11-15 06:51:08 <gmaxwell> it required {a and b} or {a and c and d} or {b and c and d} and did some counting, including of checksig failures to get there.
 514 2013-11-15 06:51:23 <Luke-Jr> btw, I guess I should post this here too just fyi: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qocdj/miners_time_to_deprioritisefilter_address_reuse/
 515 2013-11-15 06:51:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: would have tried it on testnet, been happy with it, and then forked off those alt implementations when we tried a non- A&&B redeem on mainnet.
 516 2013-11-15 06:51:58 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, never be ashamed of upvote trolling, for a good cause!
 517 2013-11-15 06:52:01 <gmaxwell> So no worse than what actually happened.
 518 2013-11-15 06:52:50 <jgarzik> "if it's from luke, it can't be any good" -- rofl.  I take it that is for conman and kano ;p
 519 2013-11-15 06:53:05 <jgarzik> next time just write "conman, check this option"
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 521 2013-11-15 06:54:05 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, make sure that test case is in bitcoind's json tests
 522 2013-11-15 06:54:13 <jgarzik> as the root of all test case data
 523 2013-11-15 06:54:28 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yes...I pushed that change to bitcoinj, just havent pushed it to bitcoind yet
 524 2013-11-15 06:54:42 <BlueMatt> (it has a big fat TODO(Matt): Add more tests like this for MULTISIG, so I want to do that first)
 525 2013-11-15 06:55:31 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: there's a lot of trolls out there - I was hoping that would be a catchall for them
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 527 2013-11-15 07:04:17 <s4lt> davec: Thanks, great resource.
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 562 2013-11-15 07:50:25 <Plarkplark_> question on the new patch by Luke-Jr (good idea imho) - what happends if someone sends transaction (by accident f/a) to an empty already used address?
 563 2013-11-15 07:50:29 <Plarkplark_> blackhole btc?
 564 2013-11-15 07:52:23 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: for now, nothing; it doesn't block anything, just delay it
 565 2013-11-15 07:56:15 <Plarkplark_> ok. The idea is good though.
 566 2013-11-15 07:57:56 <Plarkplark_> Maybe a) make Bitcoin-qt client warn you if address already contains coins (do not re-use address warning) and b) make the block delay increase in time. (1 block now, 2 blocks next month) to discurrage.
 567 2013-11-15 08:02:48 <gmaxwell> Plarkplark_: so long as its only 15% of the hashpower the effect is not that agressive. e.g. even if it blocked reuse forever it would only make you fall to the next block 15% of the time.
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 578 2013-11-15 08:10:57 <Plarkplark_> still, this address registration crap is going to hurt the network/design/idea of bitcoin
 579 2013-11-15 08:11:09 <Plarkplark_> Luke-Jr: +1
 580 2013-11-15 08:12:53 <kuzetsa> it hurts fungibility to reuse addresses
 581 2013-11-15 08:13:13 <kuzetsa> but blocking or throttling reused addresses hurts fungibility too
 582 2013-11-15 08:13:31 <kuzetsa> oh wait, no I got that wrong
 583 2013-11-15 08:13:43 <kuzetsa> reusing addresses doesn't hurt fungibility
 584 2013-11-15 08:13:56 <kuzetsa> companies demanding registered addresses does, but that's another issue entirely
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 586 2013-11-15 08:14:18 <kuzetsa> companies / governments (either way)
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 588 2013-11-15 08:19:52 <Plarkplark_> so now what.
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 591 2013-11-15 08:32:01 <abrkn> should i be worried if importprivkey takes more than a minute?
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 593 2013-11-15 08:36:11 <K1773R> abrkn: did you specify rescan to false? if not it rescans the blockchain for missing transactions
 594 2013-11-15 08:38:13 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: I'd hope that it just takes very mild discouraging to switch 95% of the activity to non-reusing, and then a censors/whitelisters job is much harder... but we'll see.
 595 2013-11-15 08:40:40 <wumpus> abrkn: no, by default it does a rescan which can take quite a while
 596 2013-11-15 08:42:43 <bitnumus> my client is stuck on 26902
 597 2013-11-15 08:42:58 <bitnumus> seems to have happened since i copied the blockchain elsewhere
 598 2013-11-15 08:44:14 <bitnumus> restarted sorted it, but weird bug ?
 599 2013-11-15 08:45:08 <bitnumus> no wonder it doesn't work on RPI if there is a bug/reason for it not working on a decent spec machine
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 601 2013-11-15 08:47:51 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #457: FAILURE in 40 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/457/
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 607 2013-11-15 08:55:48 <Plarkplark_> Luke-Jr: Could you make enforce fee on re-using addreses in time?
 608 2013-11-15 08:56:28 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: you should note importprivkey is not safe on untrusted data
 609 2013-11-15 08:58:24 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: I don't know what you mean.
 610 2013-11-15 09:00:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: he's suggesting additional fees for reuse.
 611 2013-11-15 09:00:55 <Luke-Jr> oh
 612 2013-11-15 09:01:23 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: the code to deal with that is a mess, and fixing it would be a major effort that I don't really have time for :/
 613 2013-11-15 09:01:36 <Luke-Jr> and implementing that kind of change on top of it as it is would be annoying too
 614 2013-11-15 09:01:51 <Plarkplark_> ok bummer.
 615 2013-11-15 09:01:52 <Luke-Jr> unless I do it a bit hacky
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 633 2013-11-15 09:24:19 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: the anti-addr-reuse patch mines the highest fee/kb tx if there are multiple conflicting right?
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 637 2013-11-15 09:32:10 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: not this one
 638 2013-11-15 09:32:34 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: potential DoS attack there
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 641 2013-11-15 09:34:28 <gmaxwell> hah wallet bug
 642 2013-11-15 09:34:32 <kinlo> even highest fee would introduce a dos attack no?
 643 2013-11-15 09:34:41 <petertodd> kinlo: yes, but an expensive one!
 644 2013-11-15 09:35:00 <kinlo> if you want to send someone 500 btc, I'd just keep sending 0.001 btc with fee
 645 2013-11-15 09:35:07 <kinlo> true
 646 2013-11-15 09:35:41 <gmaxwell> oh not not a bug.
 647 2013-11-15 09:36:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, just a pedantic academic break :P
 648 2013-11-15 09:36:02 <gmaxwell> I was confused having several consecutive immature coins in a row in my wallet.
 649 2013-11-15 09:36:23 <gmaxwell> petertodd: nah, I was talking to myself. your comments, yea, aware of that. not super exciting.
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 651 2013-11-15 09:36:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ...but it would be super-exciting if someone decided to attack my donation address that way, just saying...
 652 2013-11-15 09:37:00 <gmaxwell> hahaha
 653 2013-11-15 09:37:41 <kinlo> petertodd: well, if I'd attack you by sending the minimum amount, the cost I would make would be in mining fee, not in sending you money
 654 2013-11-15 09:38:05 <petertodd> kinlo: but the attention would make me feel special
 655 2013-11-15 09:38:23 <kinlo> you are special, didn't they teach you that in kindergarden? :)
 656 2013-11-15 09:38:54 <petertodd> kinlo: nah, I was homeschooled
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 658 2013-11-15 09:43:41 <oneman> I think if coinvalidator says your coins are tainted, they could sell you a blow stamp to put on the transaction to cleanse it
 659 2013-11-15 09:45:22 <Apocalyptic> $ bitcoind --deamon
 660 2013-11-15 09:45:22 <Apocalyptic> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
 661 2013-11-15 09:45:40 <Apocalyptic> interesting...
 662 2013-11-15 09:45:50 <Arnavion> Spelling of daemon
 663 2013-11-15 09:46:03 <Arnavion> But still
 664 2013-11-15 09:46:22 <gmaxwell> Arnavion: what OS? what version of bitcoin built how by whom when?
 665 2013-11-15 09:46:34 <Arnavion> Apocalyptic*
 666 2013-11-15 09:46:35 <Apocalyptic> Arnavion, right
 667 2013-11-15 09:46:57 <Apocalyptic> it's a port build on Freebsd 8.3 RELEASE
 668 2013-11-15 09:47:29 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 670 2013-11-15 09:48:00 <Apocalyptic> $ bitcoind --daemon
 671 2013-11-15 09:48:01 <Apocalyptic> Bitcoin server starting
 672 2013-11-15 09:48:05 <Apocalyptic> thanks Arnavion !
 673 2013-11-15 09:48:21 <Arnavion> I'd still investigate the segfault though
 674 2013-11-15 09:48:54 <Apocalyptic> I don't have time to play with it, I can send you the coredump if you want though
 675 2013-11-15 09:49:12 <Arnavion> Not me, I'm an innocent bystander
 676 2013-11-15 09:50:31 <Apocalyptic> i spoke too soon, looks like it crashed just after
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 678 2013-11-15 09:56:44 <Plarkplark_> what is best practice for compiling bitcoind on debian stable (wheezy) ?
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 681 2013-11-15 10:02:32 <JyZyXEL> is there a RPC command that lists all the receiving addresses?
 682 2013-11-15 10:06:39 <JyZyXEL> from all accounts
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 699 2013-11-15 10:41:51 <melvster> Ryan Fugger on Bitcoin (today): Think about it this way: in order for Bitcoin to work,
 700 2013-11-15 10:41:51 <melvster> there has to be a general global consensus on how the protocol works.
 701 2013-11-15 10:41:51 <melvster> If a group of nodes decides on an even subtly different protocol than
 702 2013-11-15 10:41:51 <melvster> the rest, there could be a blockchain fork.  We saw how this might
 703 2013-11-15 10:41:51 <melvster> happen accidentally when nodes running 0.7 were subtly incompatible
 704 2013-11-15 10:41:51 <melvster> with the 0.8 nodes, and how it took global coordination of Bitcoin
 705 2013-11-15 10:41:53 <melvster> nodes and leadership by the Bitcoin developers to avoid a fork.  The
 706 2013-11-15 10:41:55 <melvster> Bitcoin network is dependent on this meta-consensus of participating
 707 2013-11-15 10:41:57 <melvster> nodes in order to keep functioning.
 708 2013-11-15 10:42:17 <melvster> oops ... sorry for line breaks
 709 2013-11-15 10:43:57 <melvster> there's been some questioning over solution to the double spend problem of consensus vs proof of work ...
 710 2013-11-15 10:44:29 <gmaxwell> please take that ripple crap someplace else.
 711 2013-11-15 10:44:31 <gmaxwell> :P
 712 2013-11-15 10:47:07 Guyver2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 713 2013-11-15 10:47:22 <melvster> gmaxwell: read the text, there was not one mention of ripple ;)  but as you wish ...
 714 2013-11-15 10:47:34 <sipa> well, he's right
 715 2013-11-15 10:47:46 <sipa> bitcoin's rules are determined by those that run the network
 716 2013-11-15 10:47:51 <sipa> does that surprise anyone?
 717 2013-11-15 10:48:26 <sipa> the software only implements the rules the system aims to enforce, and by using it, you agree to those rules
 718 2013-11-15 10:48:42 <melvster> sipa: ben laurie wrote a paper about this too ... there's an element of longest chain wins and an element of meta consensus
 719 2013-11-15 10:49:08 <gmaxwell> Ben laurie is a bum. He was unresponsive to any commentary or criticism about his paper.
 720 2013-11-15 10:49:14 <sipa> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9986/how-is-a-hard-fork-resolved
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 722 2013-11-15 10:49:39 <sipa> melvster: the rule is: the longest _valid_ chain wins
 723 2013-11-15 10:49:49 <sipa> if nodes disagree about what is valid, you have a hard fork
 724 2013-11-15 10:49:53 <melvster> sipa: very good point, thanks for the clarification
 725 2013-11-15 10:50:07 <sipa> and yes, the only way to solve that is meta-consensus if that's how you want to call it
 726 2013-11-15 10:50:19 <sipa> consensus at a human level, rather than at a software level
 727 2013-11-15 10:51:03 <melvster> sipa: but i sometimes wonder what would happen if there was a longer chain that was constructed in secret by some entity with massive computing power, and unleashed at some point ... what would we do?  (I know that becomes less likely every day due to the hash rate increases)
 728 2013-11-15 10:51:23 <sipa> do you mean a valid one or not?
 729 2013-11-15 10:51:30 <melvster> sipa: yes a valid one
 730 2013-11-15 10:51:42 <melvster> say they forked something from the genesis block or later
 731 2013-11-15 10:51:51 <melvster> i know the genesis is hard coded
 732 2013-11-15 10:52:09 <gmaxwell> melvster: well, it would prove that bitcoin could not continue in its current form so long as the situation remained static.
 733 2013-11-15 10:52:13 <sipa> i'm not sure we could do much
 734 2013-11-15 10:52:41 <gmaxwell> sure people could go muddle up their consenus manually to flip back and ignore it, but they could do it again.. or more importantly do short reorgs constantly on the tip of the chain.
 735 2013-11-15 10:52:57 <gmaxwell> the long reorg would be easy to human reject but the short ones not so.
 736 2013-11-15 10:53:03 <wumpus> the whole concept of proof of work would have to be changed
 737 2013-11-15 10:53:54 <wumpus> if someone has that much computation power, and is willing to invest it in destroying things, then the idea of mining based proof of work is invalidated
 738 2013-11-15 10:54:03 <gmaxwell> It's sort of like asking how do you protect the USD it china nukes washington and drives their tanks over fort knox. "You don't, you might give a heroic effort— but you'll probably die trying."
 739 2013-11-15 10:55:28 <gmaxwell> I'm sure some closed shell of bitcoin might remain, a couple of big companies who only let each other mine, swearing that they'll play fair (until they're forced not to)... or the like, but well, the result wouldn't have anything in common with the original vision except the name.
 740 2013-11-15 10:55:50 <melvster> if one chain was clearly fraudulent and an attack, you could have a meta consensus to have a hard check point after the fork I guess ... but of course this would be highly controversial ...
 741 2013-11-15 10:56:06 <gmaxwell> melvster: it would just be pointless, less than controversial.
 742 2013-11-15 10:56:25 <stonecoldpat0> mailing list is on fire today
 743 2013-11-15 10:56:28 <gmaxwell> You could do that, and they'll do it again. And next time the reorg will be so short that it _is_ controversial. Then what?
 744 2013-11-15 10:56:48 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 745 2013-11-15 10:56:58 <warren> Maybe sunnyking would license his solution ...
 746 2013-11-15 10:57:04 <gmaxwell> lol
 747 2013-11-15 10:57:16 <warren> other coins have purchased it from him. =P
 748 2013-11-15 10:57:23 <gmaxwell> as I said: "the result wouldn't have anything in common with the original vision except the name"
 749 2013-11-15 10:57:49 <gmaxwell> "Decenteralized systems are hard, lets go shopping^W^W^Wtake my signed blocks"
 750 2013-11-15 10:57:59 crank has joined
 751 2013-11-15 10:58:03 <warren> You see, it isn't centralized because the users can opt out of following the broadcast checkpoint.*
 752 2013-11-15 10:58:09 <warren> (just ignore what the pools do)
 753 2013-11-15 10:58:26 <gmaxwell> and the merchants, and the lite clients and the ... :P
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 755 2013-11-15 10:58:35 <gmaxwell> warren: oh did sunnyking actually try to defend it to you?
 756 2013-11-15 10:58:40 <sipa> "It isn't centralized because you can fork the software"
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 758 2013-11-15 10:58:56 <warren> gmaxwell: No, that's Feathercoin's excuse.
 759 2013-11-15 10:59:00 <melvster> gmaxwell: such a fork would cost billions to achieve, if one was fended off, you could have a 'negative' checkpoint showing clients what we believe to be a fork attack, and let them decide, if you lost billions in your first attack, you'd probably not try again ... that said, you'd probably not try the first time with the hash rate what it is now
 760 2013-11-15 10:59:15 <gmaxwell> melvster: it wouldn't (currently) cost billions to achieve.
 761 2013-11-15 10:59:35 <melvster> gmaxwell: depends how far back you go?
 762 2013-11-15 10:59:39 TD[away] is now known as TD
 763 2013-11-15 10:59:55 <gmaxwell> And yes, that kind of metaconsensus answer to something so laughably easy to exclude is why no one would bother with that particular attack, but the same capability could do attacks not so easy to fix.
 764 2013-11-15 10:59:59 <gmaxwell> melvster: no it doesn't.
 765 2013-11-15 11:00:00 <melvster> in the bitcoin paper satoshi shows it gets exponentially harder to attack the network
 766 2013-11-15 11:00:07 <gmaxwell> (not currently)
 767 2013-11-15 11:01:47 <melvster> if you forked at block 1, the cost would be enormous
 768 2013-11-15 11:01:56 <gmaxwell> No, sadly it wouldn't e.
 769 2013-11-15 11:02:02 <melvster> hmmm
 770 2013-11-15 11:02:15 <gmaxwell> melvster: ~55.6 days of work for the network today to replace the whole chain.
 771 2013-11-15 11:02:28 <sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/powdays-50k.png
 772 2013-11-15 11:02:36 * sipa says: 42
 773 2013-11-15 11:02:39 <gmaxwell> (at the current difficulty, so actually somewhat less, but I don't remember how to get a good hashrate estimate out of gribble)
 774 2013-11-15 11:02:45 <gmaxwell> okay, there you go.
 775 2013-11-15 11:02:45 <sipa> ;;nethash
 776 2013-11-15 11:02:46 <gribble> 4602522.39347
 777 2013-11-15 11:03:15 <gmaxwell> melvster: and now $3/gh miners are offered for sale...
 778 2013-11-15 11:03:41 <melvster> wow that's cheap!
 779 2013-11-15 11:04:12 <sipa> $3 per gram hour?
 780 2013-11-15 11:04:14 <sipa> :p
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 782 2013-11-15 11:05:01 <gmaxwell> well, too be delivered when the stars align, the cheapest that is actually orderable with nearterm shipping is more like $20/gh.
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 789 2013-11-15 11:08:03 <melvster> but if you had that hashing power you're obviously better off mining ...
 790 2013-11-15 11:08:25 <gmaxwell> melvster: maybe.
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 792 2013-11-15 11:08:59 <gmaxwell> melvster: were these folks? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=327767.0
 793 2013-11-15 11:09:09 <gmaxwell> melvster: and what if you can short bitcoin? :P
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 798 2013-11-15 11:12:13 <melvster> true
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 801 2013-11-15 11:20:14 <melvster> gmaxwell: that's a very good point ... I've never really had an opinion on the price of btc, but other things being equal, I had preferred it to go DOWN as it gives more people a chance to participate ... actually we should want it to go UP, because it makes it less cost effective to attack, right?
 802 2013-11-15 11:20:54 <gmaxwell> well, it pays people to more to mine. I think they're paid enough now, the difficulty needs to catch up to their preorders.
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 816 2013-11-15 11:35:42 <CodeShark> the biggest obstacle to more people participating isn't the price - it's the fact it's so complicated, expensive, tedious, and time consuming to process fiat transactions to and from exchanges
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 821 2013-11-15 11:40:00 <melvster> CodeShark: yes, but there's ATMs now so should be easy enough for most people
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 824 2013-11-15 11:43:55 <edcba> is it hard to buy btc from mtgox etc ?
 825 2013-11-15 11:44:28 <CodeShark> processing a USD deposit or withdrawal is a less-than-wonderful experience
 826 2013-11-15 11:46:34 <CodeShark> the only thing the exchanges are currently any good for is speculating
 827 2013-11-15 11:46:49 <CodeShark> and even then, there's a lot to be desired :)
 828 2013-11-15 11:51:17 <melvster> CodeShark: exchanges serve another purpose ... the last traded price that people use to calculate a conversion rate for merchants
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 903 2013-11-15 13:53:23 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
 904 2013-11-15 13:53:23 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #458: FIXED in 45 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/458/
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 913 2013-11-15 14:14:52 <SomeoneWeird> who broke it!
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 921 2013-11-15 14:29:01 <wumpus> it wasn't really broken AFAIK, seems that there was a pull tester failure
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 940 2013-11-15 14:43:23 <Plarkplark_> is this legit? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=334520.0
 941 2013-11-15 14:43:27 <Plarkplark_> Gavin?
 942 2013-11-15 14:43:37 <Plarkplark_> gavinandresen:
 943 2013-11-15 14:43:38 <Plarkplark_> ?
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 955 2013-11-15 14:46:03 <_ingsoc> I highly doubt that's real.
 956 2013-11-15 14:46:17 <TD> lol
 957 2013-11-15 14:46:35 <TD> "leak" from a forum anyone can view by joining the organisation
 958 2013-11-15 14:46:44 <_ingsoc> "Mike Hearn should be casted away into oblivion." xD
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 960 2013-11-15 14:47:05 helo_ is now known as helo
 961 2013-11-15 14:47:27 <wumpus> oh god
 962 2013-11-15 14:47:28 <TD> i'm sure it's just an html zip of posts from the forum
 963 2013-11-15 14:47:57 swords has joined
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 965 2013-11-15 14:48:30 <_ingsoc> TD: That's definitely a guilty mind speaking.
 966 2013-11-15 14:48:33 <wumpus> is there some hallucinogen in the air today? it's as if everyone is on drugs
 967 2013-11-15 14:48:47 <TD> i guess some of them actually are
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 972 2013-11-15 14:49:22 <wumpus> mikehearn is corrupted! we need a new blockchain!
 973 2013-11-15 14:49:36 <t7> lol
 974 2013-11-15 14:49:49 <sipa> we need to hardfork him
 975 2013-11-15 14:50:28 <wumpus> THEY are destroying the sacred work of satoshi!
 976 2013-11-15 14:50:43 <TD> it's too bad that there aren't any other people researching these topics openly  (i know it happens genuinely "behind the scenes", e.g. the people approaching sarah). but then you see all the personal attacks that get posted to these threads
 977 2013-11-15 14:50:43 <Musk> O_o
 978 2013-11-15 14:50:51 <petertodd> sipa: what's the term where you take part of the blockchain where they make good bug fixes and write a nice client library and leave the evil bits behind? :P
 979 2013-11-15 14:50:53 <TD> and it's not really surprising
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 982 2013-11-15 14:52:16 <wumpus> lol petertodd
 983 2013-11-15 14:52:19 <helo> just about everyone is failing to realize this was just a discussion starter, rather than a discussion prompt... it amounts to subconscious organic censorship attempts :/
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 985 2013-11-15 14:52:33 <helo> err... "rather than an endorsement"
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 992 2013-11-15 14:53:32 <petertodd> helo: sometimes a discussion starter smells rather like endorsement: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qnsng/mike_hearn_did_not_push_for_blacklists/cdeoq4f
 993 2013-11-15 14:54:26 <TD> no, it doesn't. it "smells" like that to people who can't read and/or deliberately want to create trouble.
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 996 2013-11-15 14:54:48 <TD> petertodd: like that john dillon character. what an asshole this guy is. half the time i see him post he's just trying to create outraged megathreads.
 997 2013-11-15 14:55:01 drayah has joined
 998 2013-11-15 14:55:08 <TD> petertodd: i'd love to meet him in person one day and tell him to stop being a politician and write code
 999 2013-11-15 14:55:37 Sparxter has joined
1000 2013-11-15 14:55:40 <helo> people will believe anything if they are afraid it might be true... a dev with bad intentions is pretty frightenting.
1001 2013-11-15 14:56:12 <wumpus> TD: I've noticed that too, he's always the one that tries to get mobs together with torches and pitchforks, like back then with the minimum/dust change
1002 2013-11-15 14:56:20 <t7> wow asrock bitcoin mining mobo
1003 2013-11-15 14:56:35 <petertodd> helo: yup, only natural to see that kind of thing blow up. But equally, people need to understand that Bitcoin, if used properly, shouldn't have to be vulnerable to even outright malicious devs.
1004 2013-11-15 14:56:35 <wumpus> I don't think I've ever seen a pull request by him though
1005 2013-11-15 14:57:01 <petertodd> wumpus: lol, jdillon's idea of coding is to pay someone else to do it :P
1006 2013-11-15 14:57:08 Anduck has joined
1007 2013-11-15 14:57:09 <TD> petertodd: have you met him?
1008 2013-11-15 14:57:18 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1009 2013-11-15 14:57:20 <petertodd> wumpus: though he really seems to understand the theory well
1010 2013-11-15 14:57:38 <petertodd> TD: nope
1011 2013-11-15 14:57:42 <wumpus> petertodd: well paying people to do things is better than just opening topics and complaining, which tbh is the only thing I've seen from him
1012 2013-11-15 14:57:59 <TD> you signed his key, you're the only one who has, actually
1013 2013-11-15 14:58:07 <TD> i assumed you'd done a key signing party
1014 2013-11-15 14:58:40 <petertodd> TD: I also signed michagogo's key...
1015 2013-11-15 14:59:01 <wumpus> petertodd: yes, he understands it quite well, unlike the forum trolls he tries to recruit to his 'cause' whatever it may be :/
1016 2013-11-15 14:59:13 <helo> at least the counterarguments to white/black-listing are fresh now, and extant for all of the new users we've taken on
1017 2013-11-15 14:59:19 <petertodd> wumpus: well, complaining can be effective. Dark Wallet's getting momentum, and this latest round of controversy is helping.
1018 2013-11-15 14:59:40 <wumpus> so, what is another wallet app going to change?
1019 2013-11-15 14:59:56 <petertodd> helo: yup, and adam back improved on them IMO - his latest posts are convincing even without any desire for privacy
1020 2013-11-15 15:00:23 <petertodd> wumpus: dark wallet itself? doesn't excite me. But their inititives to figure out what's the right way to add privacy to wallets, that's worthwhile.
1021 2013-11-15 15:00:26 <wumpus> what's so private about it, they'll implement coinjoin? we can implement coinjoin in bitcoin-qt too
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1023 2013-11-15 15:00:38 <petertodd> wumpus: Hive's paying my expenses to go to the Dec meetup
1024 2013-11-15 15:00:48 <helo> it's a browser plugin, so it has that going for it, at least
1025 2013-11-15 15:00:55 <TD> complaining is not effective. coding is effective. both you and dillon should do a lot more of it.
1026 2013-11-15 15:00:57 <petertodd> wumpus: absolutely, and IMO dark wallet should have done that - smarter politically, but whatever
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1029 2013-11-15 15:01:18 <petertodd> but I'll bbl
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1034 2013-11-15 15:06:33 <TD> wumpus: AFAICT dark wallet doesn't really have any privacy features at the moment, except SSL, but then that leads to the question of who  you are encrypting to
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1036 2013-11-15 15:07:48 <helo> an spv wallet with built in tor would be kind of neat
1037 2013-11-15 15:07:59 <TD> well, bitcoinj is about to get a new network stack that supports SOCKS
1038 2013-11-15 15:08:13 <TD> so you could use tor with apps based on that then. although it doesn't currently have any support for the hidden-services-as-ipv6 trick
1039 2013-11-15 15:08:19 <helo> the tor part needs to be built in... almost nobody is going to install/configure tor
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1041 2013-11-15 15:08:29 <TD> that's hard. tor isn't actually a library. it's only provided as an app.
1042 2013-11-15 15:08:30 <helo> particularly windows users
1043 2013-11-15 15:08:47 <c0rw1n> so we'd end up with one torlib for each package? :(
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1045 2013-11-15 15:08:58 <helo> well, at least that makes implementation mistakes less likely
1046 2013-11-15 15:09:04 <TD> also it's not obviously a clear win. you scramble traffic on the wire, but then you end up with a giant MITM between you and the network. or if you use hidden services, they could all be running on the same box.
1047 2013-11-15 15:09:10 patcon has joined
1048 2013-11-15 15:09:25 <TD> bitcoin has the /16 rule to try and make sybils slightly more expensive. it's not great but it's better than nothing
1049 2013-11-15 15:09:38 <TD> tor breaks that heuristic. so .... you gain some things and lose some things
1050 2013-11-15 15:10:22 <helo> hmm... yeah, ssl-by-default would be nice, but peers won't have CA-issued certs even :
1051 2013-11-15 15:10:27 yubrew has joined
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1053 2013-11-15 15:12:01 <TD> yeah. SSL can be useful for things like connecting over wifi and stuff. but it's complicated, you have to remember keys and figure out what to do if suddenly you can't reach any nodes except new ones you never saw before (MITM).
1054 2013-11-15 15:12:11 thelorax123 has joined
1055 2013-11-15 15:12:15 <TD> and if the NSA were to start 10,000 nodes, who are we to say they shouldn't do that? central control rears its head once more.
1056 2013-11-15 15:12:33 hsmiths2 has quit (Quit: bit)
1057 2013-11-15 15:12:41 <TD> it's a lot more complicated than for websites where it's a clear beneft
1058 2013-11-15 15:13:05 <TD> stuff like bloom filtering is better because then the remote node learns fewer secrets.
1059 2013-11-15 15:13:23 <TD> and it doesn't matter if the node is a MITM (in a p2p network there isn't even a clear "middle" to begin with)
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1066 2013-11-15 15:26:03 <wumpus> helo: yes, something like a bitcoin tor bundle would be nice, similar to the tor browser bundle
1067 2013-11-15 15:26:05 <TD> lol: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4456438/how-can-i-pass-the-string-null-through-wsdl-soap-from-actionscript-3-to-a-co?rq=1
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1070 2013-11-15 15:26:50 <wumpus> LOL
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1072 2013-11-15 15:27:01 <roconnor> okay, I'm going to ask a naive question:  What' the purpose of the P2P network? Why not have clients register with all the mining operations and send transactions to them and get block from them?
1073 2013-11-15 15:27:10 <roconnor> I suspect I've forgotten something.
1074 2013-11-15 15:27:59 <roconnor> I certainly understand the historical purpose when almost everyone was a miner.
1075 2013-11-15 15:28:11 rdymac has joined
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1077 2013-11-15 15:28:31 <TD> miners come and go
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1079 2013-11-15 15:29:49 <wumpus> the purpose of the P2P network is to distribute transactions as well as share the blockchain, if only miners were full nodes then they'd have to take the blockchain distribution on their shoulders as well
1080 2013-11-15 15:30:25 <TD> roconnor: are you the roconnor who implemented bitcoin in haskell?
1081 2013-11-15 15:30:30 <roconnor> yes
1082 2013-11-15 15:30:45 <TD> i thought i recognized your nick. then i suspect your question is rhetorical and the start of an interesting train of thought
1083 2013-11-15 15:31:14 <TD> as the reason it exists is obvious. so, i suspect you are thinking about other ways to do the same thing?
1084 2013-11-15 15:32:21 <roconnor> That's a good way of looking at my question.  If we can identify exactly what we need from the P2P network, there may be other easier ways of doing the same.
1085 2013-11-15 15:33:02 <roconnor> using a P2P network to distribute transactions seems weird to me.
1086 2013-11-15 15:33:54 <danneu> what do you propose and how would you coordinate trust
1087 2013-11-15 15:33:59 <roconnor> I suppose it could be useful if you want to start spending your unconfirmed income, but still even all you really need is communiation between sender, receiver and the miners.
1088 2013-11-15 15:34:42 <wumpus> but if every client would connect directly to the miners, wouldn't they become overloaded?
1089 2013-11-15 15:34:44 <sipa> roconnor: as a receiver you want to be able to validate an incoming payment, which pretty much means being aware of all existing blocks, and preferrably some part of unconfirmed transactions
1090 2013-11-15 15:35:12 <roconnor> danneu: I propose that miners advertise their serives, and clients configure there servers to connect to all miners that they have accepted solicitations from.
1091 2013-11-15 15:35:29 <sipa> maybe that's a model we'll need in the future
1092 2013-11-15 15:35:53 <roconnor> danneu: clients send transactions to all the miners they have registered and receives new blocks from said miners.
1093 2013-11-15 15:36:15 <sipa> roconnor: it also removes the ability to mine anonymously
1094 2013-11-15 15:37:06 CryptoBuck has joined
1095 2013-11-15 15:37:25 <TD> well that's pretty much the P2P network with miner IPs in the coinbase, isn't it
1096 2013-11-15 15:37:30 <TD> which was proposed a bunch of times
1097 2013-11-15 15:37:36 <TD> i'd like IP multicast, if it worked. but it doesn't ...
1098 2013-11-15 15:38:39 <roconnor> sipa: Interesting point, how do anonymous miners post their new blocks currently?
1099 2013-11-15 15:39:01 <danneu> broadcast
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1101 2013-11-15 15:39:14 <sipa> tor is certainly one option, but it impacts propagation speed
1102 2013-11-15 15:39:29 <roconnor> oh, toring
1103 2013-11-15 15:39:36 <roconnor> oh, torring into the P2P network?
1104 2013-11-15 15:39:53 <sipa> otherwise, just connect to some random nodes
1105 2013-11-15 15:40:01 <sipa> you don't need a discoverable IP address to mine
1106 2013-11-15 15:40:06 <sipa> yes
1107 2013-11-15 15:40:11 <wumpus> yes, they can connect to any node (through tor or some other proxy system) and push the block
1108 2013-11-15 15:40:28 <roconnor> well you divulge your IP when you connect to random nodes in the P2P network.
1109 2013-11-15 15:40:59 <wumpus> you divulge *some* ip address, but it doesn't have to be one that you're reachable on
1110 2013-11-15 15:41:03 <c0rw1n> you'd divulge the IP of yout tor exit node
1111 2013-11-15 15:41:06 <roconnor> sure sure
1112 2013-11-15 15:41:18 <sipa> or to hidden service bitcoin nodes
1113 2013-11-15 15:41:18 <sipa> which are connected to the public P2P network
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1116 2013-11-15 15:41:44 <phantomcircuit> sipa, indeed having one is probably not a good idea
1117 2013-11-15 15:41:46 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, if you're worried about that it's fairly trivial to setup a node on another server that you -connect to
1118 2013-11-15 15:41:49 <phantomcircuit> sipa, not optimal for a miner given that propagation times would take an instant hit of ~500ms
1119 2013-11-15 15:42:27 <roconnor> phantomcircuit: connecting to another server doesn't really help anonymity.  But anyhow, Tor is a satisfatory answer.
1120 2013-11-15 15:42:43 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, sure it does if it's your server held anonymously
1121 2013-11-15 15:42:57 <phantomcircuit> unless you're worried about someone tapping the line
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1123 2013-11-15 15:43:15 <phantomcircuit> but then you're worried about the NSA which is probably a global observer that tor doesn't effectively protect against
1124 2013-11-15 15:44:51 <roconnor> phantomcircuit: well, I'm not an anonymous miner, but I would be worried about investigation leading from that server's operator back to me via subpoena.
1125 2013-11-15 15:45:19 <TD> an investigation into what?
1126 2013-11-15 15:45:22 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, if you're worried about that then the 500ms tor delay is not significant
1127 2013-11-15 15:45:31 <roconnor> right
1128 2013-11-15 15:45:33 <phantomcircuit> TD, i assume he's talking about if mining becomes illegal
1129 2013-11-15 15:45:45 <phantomcircuit> which is like all kinds of unlikely
1130 2013-11-15 15:45:51 <TD> i think then you have bigger problems than TCP/IP
1131 2013-11-15 15:45:57 <TD> given the need for special hardware, etc
1132 2013-11-15 15:46:20 <phantomcircuit> not to mention that it's exceptionally unlikely to be illegal everywhere
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1134 2013-11-15 15:49:24 <roconnor> sipa: still seems kinda weird to have an entire p2p network to support anonymous miners.
1135 2013-11-15 15:50:03 <sipa> i guess that's not the original reason
1136 2013-11-15 15:50:24 <TD> it seems simpler than a lot of alternatives
1137 2013-11-15 15:50:27 <roconnor> I've inferred that the original reason was that everyone was going to be a miner.
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1139 2013-11-15 15:50:57 <TD> no, i don't think so
1140 2013-11-15 15:50:59 <helo> and that we want to capitalize on the whole "information is easy to share, hard to stifle"
1141 2013-11-15 15:51:18 <sipa> having any kind of 0-conf security also relies on being able to broadcast, which i think was also a reason initially
1142 2013-11-15 15:51:23 <TD> the model is "everyone knows all transactions"
1143 2013-11-15 15:51:36 <TD> the most obvious way to do that is p2p broadcast
1144 2013-11-15 15:51:44 <TD> then you need to order the broadcasts canonically, hence, mining
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1146 2013-11-15 15:53:39 <roconnor> TD: I don't think I follow your argument,  If we need transactions ordered by miners, why do we still need to use a p2p network to broadcast unordered transactions?
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1150 2013-11-15 15:54:22 <sipa> roconnor: unconfirmed transaction security relies on the network (not just miners, which may have different incentives) knowing transactions
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1152 2013-11-15 15:54:30 <TD> right. unconfirmed transactions are useful
1153 2013-11-15 15:54:30 <sipa> roconnor: even though i doubt that is enforcable long-term
1154 2013-11-15 15:54:44 <TD> also, what's the alternative again? some complicated registration process?
1155 2013-11-15 15:54:47 <roconnor> oh okay
1156 2013-11-15 15:54:57 <TD> it doesn't seem better
1157 2013-11-15 15:55:34 <roconnor> TD: I can't be easily syblied if I am only connecting to "known" people rather than random people.
1158 2013-11-15 15:55:52 <sipa> roconnor: you can still connect to known trusted peers
1159 2013-11-15 15:55:52 <TD> you can of course still do that with a p2p protocol. the android wallet even has a trusted node feature
1160 2013-11-15 15:55:55 <TD> though it's a bit buggy
1161 2013-11-15 15:55:56 <roconnor> sipa: I know
1162 2013-11-15 15:56:08 <sipa> a single honest peer is enough to avoid sybil
1163 2013-11-15 15:56:15 <roconnor> I'm quite pleased that I can personally implement my idea within the current framework.
1164 2013-11-15 15:57:10 <roconnor> okay, so people like unconfirmed transactions.
1165 2013-11-15 15:57:18 <roconnor> That is a pretty good reason... I guess
1166 2013-11-15 15:57:19 <jgarzik> speaking of, my satellite project still hovers in the background.  I think I might get it properly spec'd out.
1167 2013-11-15 15:57:26 <sipa> roconnor: i think people like them more than they should
1168 2013-11-15 15:57:45 <sipa> roconnor: but i think it is a reason of why we p2p model was chosen initially
1169 2013-11-15 15:57:55 <roconnor> sipa: thanks
1170 2013-11-15 15:57:59 <roconnor> thanks everyone
1171 2013-11-15 15:58:15 <roconnor> Something to think about.
1172 2013-11-15 15:58:17 <helo> people like unconfirmed transactions because they are the first layer of protection against double spends, aren't they?
1173 2013-11-15 15:58:18 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1174 2013-11-15 15:58:33 <TD> roconnor: what is your idea?
1175 2013-11-15 15:58:35 bitspill has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1176 2013-11-15 15:59:10 <roconnor> TD: only connect to miners that you want to do business with.
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1179 2013-11-15 16:01:57 <danneu> roconnor: so, directly to some btcguild/ghash.io coordination point?
1180 2013-11-15 16:02:03 bitspill has joined
1181 2013-11-15 16:02:04 <helo> if someone only connected to miners, and those miners didn't broacast the transactions they received, it would take a lot longer for an individual to begin to gain confidence that a tx to them is likely to be confirmed
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1183 2013-11-15 16:03:46 <helo> do spv nodes verify that they receive each transaction to them from all of the nodes they connect to?
1184 2013-11-15 16:04:25 <helo> or at least that they dont receive conflicting txes
1185 2013-11-15 16:04:41 bitspill has joined
1186 2013-11-15 16:04:49 <TD> bitcoinj records how many peers announced a tx yes
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1188 2013-11-15 16:05:01 <TD> and it has some code to handle conflicts. that code is a bit incomplete/buggy but the API is there
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1191 2013-11-15 16:05:14 <TD> the android wallet will highlight double-spent/dead/conflicting transactions in red and put a warning next to them
1192 2013-11-15 16:05:25 <TD> though i don't think andreas tests this functionality much so it could be broken by now
1193 2013-11-15 16:06:40 <helo> or if they are only received by one peer? i wonder what's normal percentage of peers to see eventually-confirmed transactions from.
1194 2013-11-15 16:07:20 <helo> received *from one peer
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1196 2013-11-15 16:09:24 <TD> whenever i use android wallet, i tend to see all peers announce
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1204 2013-11-15 16:15:44 <petertodd> roconnor: keep in mind that without a P2P layer distributing transactions you get centralization pressure where larger miners get more fees because people don't bother sending txs to small ones; nasty problem
1205 2013-11-15 16:17:54 <petertodd> roconnor: re: sybil, one of the good things about electrum, is that you connect to electrum servers with relatively well known identities, so anonymous sybil's aren't a risk. Electrum also connects to multiple servers to fetch block headers, and verifies transactions SPV style - though it'd be good if electrum clients also participated in the P2P relay network as another source of header data
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1210 2013-11-15 16:21:40 <jgarzik> gah.  initial wallet creation looks like it syncs the disk for each key generated.
1211 2013-11-15 16:21:52 <jgarzik> or big keypool refill
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1213 2013-11-15 16:22:16 <petertodd> jgarzik: ha, explains why making 10k keys takes so long...
1214 2013-11-15 16:22:22 <Belxjander> jgarzik: it buids and writes each key sequentially? not as a complete complex object chain in memory first ?
1215 2013-11-15 16:22:33 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, yeah it does i always create my giant wallets on a tmpfs and then copy them
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1218 2013-11-15 16:22:58 <phantomcircuit> Belxjander, each key is it's own key/value pair in the db
1219 2013-11-15 16:22:59 <phantomcircuit> so no
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1222 2013-11-15 16:23:24 <jgarzik> Belxjander, it just doesn't need to sync BDB for each key, just at the end of the series
1223 2013-11-15 16:23:33 <jgarzik> all other operations are valid and necessary
1224 2013-11-15 16:23:44 <jgarzik> BDB transactions work fine for this
1225 2013-11-15 16:23:55 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, for the most part im not sure it really matters, how often are people actually generating huge keypools?
1226 2013-11-15 16:24:07 <phantomcircuit> otoh if it's easy to fix
1227 2013-11-15 16:24:27 <Belxjander> jgarzik: that is what I would think is true too
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1229 2013-11-15 16:25:54 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, nod
1230 2013-11-15 16:26:23 <jgarzik> hum
1231 2013-11-15 16:26:31 <jgarzik> 'keypoolrefill new-size' is now broken
1232 2013-11-15 16:27:30 <jgarzik> no, it does, I'm just an idiot.
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1237 2013-11-15 16:29:22 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, heh i was about to say
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1349 2013-11-15 18:28:42 <shamoon> i'm trying to modify the difficulty of 1 in the source code to something easier. i think it's: static CBigNum bnProofOfWorkLimit(~uint256(0) >> 32);
1350 2013-11-15 18:28:48 <shamoon> that sets the initial difficulty
1351 2013-11-15 18:29:37 <ryan-c> https://github.com/brainwallet/brainwallet.github.com/pull/27 < brainwallet.org hates security.
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1374 2013-11-15 18:50:40 <BlueMatt> shamoon: try regtest mode
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1376 2013-11-15 18:52:00 <shamoon> i'm using an older source
1377 2013-11-15 18:52:02 <shamoon> without regtest
1378 2013-11-15 18:52:08 <shamoon> trying to understand the mechanics of the code
1379 2013-11-15 18:52:14 <BlueMatt> theres a patch for that lying around somewhere
1380 2013-11-15 18:52:38 <shamoon> is that where the initial difficulty is set?
1381 2013-11-15 18:52:43 <shamoon> bnProofOfWorkLimit?
1382 2013-11-15 18:52:48 <BlueMatt> yea, iirc
1383 2013-11-15 18:52:58 <BlueMatt> it changes what "diff1" is defined as
1384 2013-11-15 18:53:00 <shamoon> high is easy or low?
1385 2013-11-15 18:53:20 <shamoon> it's using all 1's and shifting right
1386 2013-11-15 18:53:22 <BlueMatt> if you shift less, it gets easier
1387 2013-11-15 18:53:28 <shamoon> is that the target or diff?
1388 2013-11-15 18:53:29 <shamoon> gotcha
1389 2013-11-15 18:53:34 <shamoon> so >> 1 will be SUPER easy
1390 2013-11-15 18:53:37 <BlueMatt> yep
1391 2013-11-15 18:53:40 <shamoon> thanks!
1392 2013-11-15 18:53:41 <BlueMatt> (thats what regtest mode uses)
1393 2013-11-15 18:53:55 <shamoon> so then i should be able to mine almost instantly
1394 2013-11-15 18:53:59 <shamoon> welll.. at least faster
1395 2013-11-15 18:54:04 <shamoon> starting from the genesis
1396 2013-11-15 18:54:07 <BlueMatt> until the first retarget, yes
1397 2013-11-15 18:54:22 <shamoon> static const int64 nTargetSpacing = 1 * 60;
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1399 2013-11-15 18:54:38 <shamoon> for faster blocks
1400 2013-11-15 18:55:29 <BlueMatt> that will keep diff down on retargets, if you set it low, yes
1401 2013-11-15 18:55:40 <shamoon> awesome sauce
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1403 2013-11-15 18:56:06 <shamoon> weird - i've been running for like 10 min and still no blocks
1404 2013-11-15 18:56:24 <shamoon> 3.5MH/s
1405 2013-11-15 18:56:35 <BlueMatt> if you shift 1 you can get a block with 1H/s
1406 2013-11-15 18:56:46 <shamoon> static CBigNum bnProofOfWorkLimit(~uint256(0) >> 1);
1407 2013-11-15 18:56:47 <BlueMatt> (you literally get a block 1 out of every 2 hashes...)
1408 2013-11-15 18:56:49 <shamoon> with that, right?
1409 2013-11-15 18:56:59 <shamoon> that's what i would have thought - but alas
1410 2013-11-15 18:57:02 <shamoon> not happening
1411 2013-11-15 18:57:20 <BlueMatt> your mining software may be confused
1412 2013-11-15 18:57:24 <BlueMatt> is probably confused, that is
1413 2013-11-15 18:57:32 <shamoon> confused?
1414 2013-11-15 18:57:35 <shamoon> by what?
1415 2013-11-15 18:57:44 <BlueMatt> mining software doesnt understand a really easy powlimit
1416 2013-11-15 18:57:50 <BlueMatt> its designed for the standard powlimit
1417 2013-11-15 18:57:54 <BlueMatt> use the built-in miner
1418 2013-11-15 18:58:00 <shamoon> i am using the built in
1419 2013-11-15 18:58:04 <shamoon> setgenerate true
1420 2013-11-15 18:58:14 <BlueMatt> hmm, well I dont know
1421 2013-11-15 18:58:37 <shamoon> static CBigNum bnProofOfWorkLimit(~uint256(0));
1422 2013-11-15 18:58:41 <shamoon> will literally always hash
1423 2013-11-15 18:58:47 <shamoon> to something that works
1424 2013-11-15 18:58:47 <shamoon> right?
1425 2013-11-15 18:58:51 <BlueMatt> in theory
1426 2013-11-15 18:58:57 <BlueMatt> before first retarget, yes
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1428 2013-11-15 19:00:00 <shamoon> and my first regarget would happen in 2014 blocks
1429 2013-11-15 19:00:26 <BlueMatt> yes
1430 2013-11-15 19:00:31 <shamoon> well - 20,000 blocks in my case
1431 2013-11-15 19:00:34 <shamoon> since i have a 1 min block
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1433 2013-11-15 19:01:08 <BlueMatt> no, still in 2014 blocks, but a 1 min block just means retarget will keep easier
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1439 2013-11-15 19:06:16 <shamoon> weird that it hasn't founda ny blocks
1440 2013-11-15 19:08:07 <BlueMatt> its also very possible the internal miner ignores the powlimit variable and waits for regular diff-1
1441 2013-11-15 19:08:12 <BlueMatt> but I havent read that code in forever
1442 2013-11-15 19:08:18 <BlueMatt> just run on master in -regtest
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1455 2013-11-15 19:23:38 <TD> jgarzik: i just ordered my dinner through bitpay :)
1456 2013-11-15 19:24:06 adge has joined
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1458 2013-11-15 19:25:08 <BlueMatt> nice!
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1463 2013-11-15 19:31:12 <lianj> TD: in usa?
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1467 2013-11-15 19:31:57 <TD> no
1468 2013-11-15 19:31:58 <TD> in swtizerland
1469 2013-11-15 19:31:58 Arnavion has joined
1470 2013-11-15 19:32:03 <TD> via lieferservice.ch
1471 2013-11-15 19:32:11 <TD> it was very smooth
1472 2013-11-15 19:32:24 <TD> though i wish the qrcode contained a label. i tend to pay for things with my phone actuall
1473 2013-11-15 19:32:25 <lianj> just had my 5th successful lunch with bitcoin paid at takeaway (yea lieferservice.ch is from them too) and they use bitpay
1474 2013-11-15 19:32:31 <TD> and it'd be nice not to have to manually label things
1475 2013-11-15 19:32:43 <lianj> true
1476 2013-11-15 19:34:00 <lianj> but its dangerous‎, i tend to alway pay for my friends food then too :D
1477 2013-11-15 19:34:08 ProfMac has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1478 2013-11-15 19:34:42 <TD> heh
1479 2013-11-15 19:34:46 <TD> it's soooo convenient
1480 2013-11-15 19:34:52 <TD> it makes you realise what a PITA typing in credit card details is
1481 2013-11-15 19:35:02 <TD> though i probably should move some money off my  phone given the recent rise in prices ...
1482 2013-11-15 19:35:02 <lianj> yea, or paypal
1483 2013-11-15 19:35:20 sayd has left ("WeeChat 0.4.2")
1484 2013-11-15 19:35:23 <lianj> sadly they android app doesn't support bitcoin yet. only cash and paypal works in there
1485 2013-11-15 19:35:30 <lianj> s/they/their/
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1487 2013-11-15 19:35:55 <TD> lieferservice have an android app?
1488 2013-11-15 19:35:58 <lianj> they should just popup a browser to the bitpay url
1489 2013-11-15 19:36:06 OneFixt has joined
1490 2013-11-15 19:36:07 <lianj> TD: in germany at least, yes
1491 2013-11-15 19:36:15 <TD> well, you can actually request money directly from the bitcoin wallet app with an intent
1492 2013-11-15 19:36:28 <TD> it'd be cool if there was a bitpay API that would talk to bitpay, get an address, then open the wallet app directly
1493 2013-11-15 19:36:33 <TD> it wouldn't be hard to make one
1494 2013-11-15 19:36:35 * TD looks at jgarzik 
1495 2013-11-15 19:36:41 <lianj> :D
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1497 2013-11-15 19:36:53 <TD> unfortunately that API isn't really documented, AFAIK
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1499 2013-11-15 19:37:18 <lianj> that would be nice. but using the browser -> click on bitcoin-url there would work too
1500 2013-11-15 19:37:31 justusranvier has joined
1501 2013-11-15 19:38:25 <TD> that's true
1502 2013-11-15 19:38:35 <lianj> today my delivery only took 20min (on a friday evening). i wasn't prepared for my food by then :D
1503 2013-11-15 19:39:20 <TD> mosi.ch is kinda slow usually. well i guess it's really the restaurants that are slow
1504 2013-11-15 19:39:30 <lianj> i wish takeaway would release some stats about bitcoin payments usage soon. heard about lots of people on irc using it already
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1552 2013-11-15 21:00:42 <ThomasV> maaku: how is your utxo work?
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1565 2013-11-15 21:13:59 <skinnkavaj> Can anynone exeplain how inputs.io got hacked?
1566 2013-11-15 21:15:11 <phantomcircuit> skinnkavaj, something about they hacked an email that allowd them to reset another and another
1567 2013-11-15 21:15:41 <skinnkavaj> phantomcircuit: oh thanks, so i guess they had an inputs.io admin account then
1568 2013-11-15 21:15:56 <skinnkavaj> not good to have admin accounts
1569 2013-11-15 21:16:17 <BlueMatt> never good to be dumb about password policy
1570 2013-11-15 21:16:50 <skinnkavaj> More about security, what is important to rule out when allowing users to upload files?
1571 2013-11-15 21:16:57 <skinnkavaj> Thinking about bitcointalk hack via avatar upload
1572 2013-11-15 21:17:01 MC1984 has joined
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1574 2013-11-15 21:17:16 <BlueMatt> dont allow it?
1575 2013-11-15 21:17:30 <skinnkavaj> my site need to have option to upload files
1576 2013-11-15 21:17:39 <skinnkavaj> only pictures though.
1577 2013-11-15 21:17:52 <BlueMatt> sanatize the shit out of them (ie read them in and reencode them)
1578 2013-11-15 21:18:10 <skinnkavaj> would you like to help with that if i pay you?
1579 2013-11-15 21:18:27 <danneu> just look at the current solutions out there
1580 2013-11-15 21:18:30 <danneu> the definitive ones
1581 2013-11-15 21:18:37 <skinnkavaj> example?
1582 2013-11-15 21:20:04 <skinnkavaj> maybe you can outsource the process to imgur.com or something.
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1585 2013-11-15 21:20:45 Coincidental has joined
1586 2013-11-15 21:21:06 <danneu> i imagine the popular image libs are sanitary
1587 2013-11-15 21:21:29 thelorax123 has joined
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1589 2013-11-15 21:21:53 <danneu> skinnkavaj: what happened with bitcoin talk and the avatar upload?
1590 2013-11-15 21:22:21 <danneu> was it forging cross-site requests or something
1591 2013-11-15 21:22:39 <skinnkavaj> danneu: i am not sure, but i have understood it correctly they uploaded a file via avatar upload that got them database leaked. i dont know more sorry
1592 2013-11-15 21:23:47 Vinnie_win has joined
1593 2013-11-15 21:24:23 <qwertyoruiop> TD: Nice ideas to destroy BT C
1594 2013-11-15 21:24:25 <qwertyoruiop> *BTC
1595 2013-11-15 21:25:01 <BlueMatt> Im getting tired of that
1596 2013-11-15 21:25:11 <TD> long week
1597 2013-11-15 21:25:12 <Vinnie_win> tained coin talk?
1598 2013-11-15 21:25:14 <Vinnie_win> *tainted
1599 2013-11-15 21:25:22 <BlueMatt> yea
1600 2013-11-15 21:25:26 <TD> i think i might put together a list of things that were going to destroy bitcoin over the last few years
1601 2013-11-15 21:25:35 <BlueMatt> hah, not a bad idea
1602 2013-11-15 21:25:37 <gavinandresen> I've been on that list several times.
1603 2013-11-15 21:25:38 <TD> like a hall of shame
1604 2013-11-15 21:25:44 <TD> yup, you and me both
1605 2013-11-15 21:25:50 <TD> remember when gpu mining meant the end of bitcoin?
1606 2013-11-15 21:25:56 <BlueMatt> hah! yep
1607 2013-11-15 21:25:59 <BlueMatt> and asics, ofc
1608 2013-11-15 21:26:19 <TD> mining pools, i think, though my memory of that was fuzzy
1609 2013-11-15 21:26:23 Hasimir has quit (Quit: have to fix a broken thing)
1610 2013-11-15 21:26:27 <BlueMatt> definitely
1611 2013-11-15 21:26:32 <TD> oh yeah. when mtgox started doing AML
1612 2013-11-15 21:26:33 <TD> end of bitcoin
1613 2013-11-15 21:26:35 <gavinandresen> Mmm.  DeepBit was going to destroy bitocin
1614 2013-11-15 21:26:40 <TD> oh yes.
1615 2013-11-15 21:27:05 <TD> the press center!
1616 2013-11-15 21:27:12 <BlueMatt> oh, thats right
1617 2013-11-15 21:27:14 <BlueMatt> I like that one
1618 2013-11-15 21:27:17 <owowo> don't forget "the government" ;o)
1619 2013-11-15 21:27:29 <TD> hah, that one might still happen ;)
1620 2013-11-15 21:27:40 <Luke-Jr> TD: mining pools could still happen too
1621 2013-11-15 21:27:51 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1622 2013-11-15 21:28:11 <TD> i think asics worked out ok though.
1623 2013-11-15 21:28:18 <TD> that ended up being more competitive than anyone expected
1624 2013-11-15 21:28:24 <Luke-Jr> I think address whitelisting would be more of a "makes Bitcoin unusable in the USA" than "kills bitcoin" in any case
1625 2013-11-15 21:29:13 <Luke-Jr> s/USA/wherever it's enforced/
1626 2013-11-15 21:29:25 Hasimir has joined
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1628 2013-11-15 21:32:25 <TD> it's hard to imagine that working or being enforceable
1629 2013-11-15 21:32:50 <BlueMatt> hard is an understatement
1630 2013-11-15 21:33:58 <owowo> forgetting to back up is definitely destroying bitcoin lol
1631 2013-11-15 21:34:04 <TD> haha
1632 2013-11-15 21:34:15 <TD> damn yeah. paper wallets probably destroy more bitcoin than i or gavin ever will
1633 2013-11-15 21:34:29 <TD> at least until all wallets start supporting them properly
1634 2013-11-15 21:34:35 <TD> oh yeah, someone submitted some code for bip39 to bitcoinj today
1635 2013-11-15 21:34:46 <TD> hopefully that will be in the next release
1636 2013-11-15 21:35:14 <BlueMatt> oooo, nice
1637 2013-11-15 21:35:26 <TD> the code needs a bit of work but if the author doesn't do it, i guess i will
1638 2013-11-15 21:35:26 s4lt has joined
1639 2013-11-15 21:35:28 <BlueMatt> someone needs to hire TD to work on bitcoinj full-time
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1646 2013-11-15 21:40:50 <helo> i nominate his current employer :)
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1659 2013-11-15 21:56:33 <HiPoint_Admin> test
1660 2013-11-15 21:56:41 HiPoint_Admin is now known as baconfather
1661 2013-11-15 21:56:52 <sipa> test failed
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1664 2013-11-15 22:00:29 <baconfather> the bitcoin wiki doesn't seem to cover the commands to put out bids and offers straight to mtGox, or am i missing something?
1665 2013-11-15 22:00:29 Polyatomic has joined
1666 2013-11-15 22:01:14 <enodios> test
1667 2013-11-15 22:01:16 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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1669 2013-11-15 22:01:37 <baconfather> testicle
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1671 2013-11-15 22:02:56 <TD> baconfather: that's something you should get from mtgox, it's not generic bitcoin stuff
1672 2013-11-15 22:03:55 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1673 2013-11-15 22:04:49 <baconfather> oh is this channel for bitcoin mining dev?
1674 2013-11-15 22:05:07 profreid has quit (Quit: profreid)
1675 2013-11-15 22:05:52 Muis_ is now known as Muis
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1677 2013-11-15 22:06:45 <danneu> In step2, what is OP_CODE_SEPARATOR supposed to represent (as opposed to OP_CODESEPARATOR)? https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png
1678 2013-11-15 22:06:48 Lekane has joined
1679 2013-11-15 22:06:55 <Luke-Jr> baconfather: it's not bitcoin dev in general, mining or otherwise
1680 2013-11-15 22:07:01 <Luke-Jr> baconfather: mtgox is not bitcoin, it's just a service
1681 2013-11-15 22:08:10 <baconfather> it's an exchange, i just want to be able to put my bids and offers out without using their crummy step by step system
1682 2013-11-15 22:08:26 <Luke-Jr> regardless, it's not bitcoin itself
1683 2013-11-15 22:08:34 <Luke-Jr> I suggest asking in #mtgox
1684 2013-11-15 22:08:38 <baconfather> ah i see, so i'm in the wrong place
1685 2013-11-15 22:08:40 <baconfather> lol thanks!
1686 2013-11-15 22:10:59 bbrian has joined
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1689 2013-11-15 22:15:03 <hno> Hm.. I just had a local transaction getting stuck after a network connectivity failure causing the initial broadcast to fail. For some reason it was then not sent to any peers.
1690 2013-11-15 22:15:41 <hno> is there some long delay on attempting to rebroadcast a transaction?
1691 2013-11-15 22:16:24 BaTCave has joined
1692 2013-11-15 22:17:14 bitspill has joined
1693 2013-11-15 22:17:21 <hno> Ended up exporting the transaction with getrawtransaction and manually injecting it on another bitcoin node with sendrawtransaction and it was accepted just fine (that's one of the same bitcoin nodes it initially failed to broadcast to btw)
1694 2013-11-15 22:18:41 <sipa> hno: it's rebroadcasted every 15-30 minutes usually
1695 2013-11-15 22:19:21 <hno> aha. any way to explcit retry broadcasting pending transactions after a network failure?
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1697 2013-11-15 22:20:12 <hno> nothing wrong with the transaction, just a network failure which prevented the broadcast.
1698 2013-11-15 22:20:12 <gmaxwell> hno: it will rebroadcast with a random delay (of ~30 minutes) after the next block that doesn't have it.
1699 2013-11-15 22:20:26 <owowo> baconfather: try to ask at #mtgox
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1702 2013-11-15 22:22:28 <hno> gmaxwell, that's all fine. Just wonder if there is some way to speed that up in cases like this, i.e. after local network failure have been resolved.
1703 2013-11-15 22:22:49 <hno> other than doing an sendrawtransaction on another node.
1704 2013-11-15 22:23:24 <gmaxwell> hno: not currently. I'd like a local sendraw to be able to force a resend but today it doesn't.
1705 2013-11-15 22:23:54 <gmaxwell> maybe even a sendrawtransactionpeer that sends a rawtxn without validation to a selected peer?
1706 2013-11-15 22:24:26 <hno> Thinking... likely it should also try to rebroadcast local transactions to connect= or addnode= nodes after connection have been established.
1707 2013-11-15 22:24:27 <gmaxwell> the implementation of inv/getdata makes that hard
1708 2013-11-15 22:24:41 <gmaxwell> hno: you do not want to identify local transactions
1709 2013-11-15 22:24:55 <hno> what do you mean?
1710 2013-11-15 22:25:20 <gmaxwell> hno: we do not what the default behavior to be privacy hostile your node shouldn't make it blindingly clear to its peers which transactions were locally created.
1711 2013-11-15 22:26:24 <hno> gmaxwell, I know, but connect= or addnode= nodes you usually have some relation with already. connect= nodes certainly as you likely are a leaf node to them.
1712 2013-11-15 22:27:03 <gmaxwell> hno: perhaps there is an argument for connect, though if you have more than one they don't really know much of anything.
1713 2013-11-15 22:27:23 <gmaxwell> It's hard to choose behavior which is conservative and not surprising to anyone.
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1720 2013-11-15 22:30:57 <hno> gmaxwell, isn't a relaytransaction more appropriate, taking a transaction id only? The transaction as such has already been locally validated.
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1723 2013-11-15 22:34:32 <gmaxwell> hno: perhaps but less flexible since you might actually want to relay something which cannot pass local validation. E.g. if your local blockchain isn't synced up.
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1733 2013-11-15 22:39:36 <hno> Hmm.. looking at code. Should really be a random interval per transaction, not all pending transactions at some random delay. Can easily end up with a significant backlog if there is a network issue, and sending them all in a big batch is kind of revealing.
1734 2013-11-15 22:40:03 CryptoBuck has joined
1735 2013-11-15 22:40:05 <hno> just as sending too quickly after a connect.
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1739 2013-11-15 22:42:36 <gmaxwell> hno: the key point there is that you don't know if the node giving them to you was the source or just something they were connecting through. But if the release were triggered by a block or connect you would.  Not to say that the current way is any good, it's not, it's just also not the worst possible. :)
1740 2013-11-15 22:42:47 Elmf has joined
1741 2013-11-15 22:45:18 * hno adds it on his network propagation todo list to look into.
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1757 2013-11-15 22:59:02 iceTwy has joined
1758 2013-11-15 22:59:04 <iceTwy> Hey there
1759 2013-11-15 22:59:11 <iceTwy> getting a bit of a problem here
1760 2013-11-15 22:59:16 <iceTwy> with bitcoind 0.8.5 stable
1761 2013-11-15 22:59:30 <iceTwy> running bitcoind in screen returns; "error: could not connect to server"
1762 2013-11-15 22:59:54 erans_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1763 2013-11-15 23:00:09 enodios has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1764 2013-11-15 23:00:12 <iceTwy> how come?
1765 2013-11-15 23:00:51 super3 has joined
1766 2013-11-15 23:01:19 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1767 2013-11-15 23:02:43 <gmaxwell> iceTwy: because you don't have the daemon running?
1768 2013-11-15 23:02:51 <super3> gmaxwell, hello!
1769 2013-11-15 23:03:35 <iceTwy> gmaxwell: well that's what screen is supposed to do; run the daemon
1770 2013-11-15 23:03:46 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1771 2013-11-15 23:04:15 <sipa> iceTwy: but you're not
1772 2013-11-15 23:04:34 <sipa> iceTwy: you're probably passing some arguments that make it run as RPC client, rather than node
1773 2013-11-15 23:04:38 <iceTwy> sipa: which is strange; because running bitcoind in a normal shell works
1774 2013-11-15 23:04:47 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1775 2013-11-15 23:04:49 <sipa> if you do: bitcoind <command>, it sends command to a running bitcoind
1776 2013-11-15 23:04:56 <sipa> if you do: bitcoind, it runs a node
1777 2013-11-15 23:04:58 <iceTwy> I'm just running bitcoind
1778 2013-11-15 23:05:00 <iceTwy> well
1779 2013-11-15 23:05:02 <iceTwy> take a look
1780 2013-11-15 23:05:07 * sipa looks
1781 2013-11-15 23:05:11 bbrian has joined
1782 2013-11-15 23:05:14 Zarutian has joined
1783 2013-11-15 23:05:23 <iceTwy> screen -t electrum sudo -u bitcoin /home/bitcoin/bin/bitcoind && /bin/sleep 20s && /home/bitcoin/bin/electrum-server
1784 2013-11-15 23:05:33 erans has joined
1785 2013-11-15 23:05:36 <iceTwy> this is supposed to launch bitcoind as bitcoin
1786 2013-11-15 23:05:46 knotwork has joined
1787 2013-11-15 23:05:46 <iceTwy> everything is set up properly, with sudo privileges & proper file locations
1788 2013-11-15 23:05:57 <sipa> that looks right indeed
1789 2013-11-15 23:06:11 <iceTwy> then again running bitcoind as bitcoin, normally, works, and returns "Bitcoin server starting"
1790 2013-11-15 23:06:24 <iceTwy> but if it is ran through screen it returns "error: could not connect to server"
1791 2013-11-15 23:06:47 <sipa> and if you do it manually in a screen?
1792 2013-11-15 23:06:56 da2ce7 has joined
1793 2013-11-15 23:06:59 <iceTwy> sipa: lemme see
1794 2013-11-15 23:07:47 <iceTwy> works
1795 2013-11-15 23:07:54 <iceTwy> screen@snow:~$ sudo -u bitcoin /home/bitcoin/bin/bitcoind
1796 2013-11-15 23:07:55 <iceTwy> Bitcoin server starting
1797 2013-11-15 23:07:59 <iceTwy> (in screen)
1798 2013-11-15 23:08:10 <gmaxwell> iceTwy: you need quotes.
1799 2013-11-15 23:08:14 <iceTwy> right gmaxwell
1800 2013-11-15 23:08:18 <iceTwy> I figured that out right now lol
1801 2013-11-15 23:08:45 <iceTwy> "&& /bin/sleep 20s && /home/bitcoin/bin/electrum-server" is passed as an argument to bitcoind
1802 2013-11-15 23:08:48 <iceTwy> hence da ultimate fail
1803 2013-11-15 23:09:08 <sipa> heh?
1804 2013-11-15 23:09:08 <sipa> only if you have quotes around it
1805 2013-11-15 23:09:12 <gmaxwell> iceTwy: How much resources does electrum-server take now?
1806 2013-11-15 23:09:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: screen is eating the -u as an option.
1807 2013-11-15 23:10:18 <iceTwy> gmaxwell: hm
1808 2013-11-15 23:10:18 <sipa> well, whatever, but the command as given cannot let screen see the && even
1809 2013-11-15 23:10:22 <iceTwy> gmaxwell: gimme a sec
1810 2013-11-15 23:10:37 <iceTwy> gmaxwell: it's off by the looks of it
1811 2013-11-15 23:10:42 <iceTwy> I probably killed it at some point
1812 2013-11-15 23:10:48 <iceTwy> but it hasn't been launched anyway
1813 2013-11-15 23:10:53 <sipa> so unless there are quotes involved that he didn't paste here, there should not be anything after the bitcoind command
1814 2013-11-15 23:11:04 drayah has joined
1815 2013-11-15 23:11:04 <gmaxwell> iceTwy: how much diskspace I meant.
1816 2013-11-15 23:11:53 <iceTwy> gmaxwell: not much afaik
1817 2013-11-15 23:12:01 <iceTwy> lemme du that
1818 2013-11-15 23:12:08 <sipa> it just serves an indexed UTXO set, no?
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1821 2013-11-15 23:12:41 <iceTwy> electrum-leveldb => 4.4G
1822 2013-11-15 23:12:52 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, the old versions needed >100Gbytes but I knew they reworked it.
1823 2013-11-15 23:13:02 <iceTwy> whilst /home/bitcoin/.bitcoin => 15G
1824 2013-11-15 23:13:02 <gmaxwell> which is why I was asking.
1825 2013-11-15 23:13:14 Sparxter has left (AFK!F.melle@88.159.121.201|)
1826 2013-11-15 23:13:15 <iceTwy> (keeping a full txindex too)
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1828 2013-11-15 23:13:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: well not indexed utxo, index txo. they serve historical transactions AFAIK.
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1830 2013-11-15 23:14:02 <iceTwy> gmaxwell: though if I do put quotes around "sudo -u bitcoin /home/ [blablabla] electrum-server"
1831 2013-11-15 23:14:04 <sipa> gmaxwell: i thought you had pruned and non-pruned servers
1832 2013-11-15 23:14:13 <iceTwy> screen whines about not being able to exec sudo
1833 2013-11-15 23:14:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: sounds like you know more than I know!
1834 2013-11-15 23:14:49 Musk_ has joined
1835 2013-11-15 23:14:50 <iceTwy> sipa: well, realistically, all Electrum servers are pruned
1836 2013-11-15 23:14:59 <iceTwy> the max is 10k tx/address
1837 2013-11-15 23:15:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: just hearsay
1838 2013-11-15 23:15:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: i've never actually run electrum even
1839 2013-11-15 23:15:46 <gmaxwell> it's pretty nice. I don't use it, but I've tried it out.
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1843 2013-11-15 23:18:41 <iceTwy> my god
1844 2013-11-15 23:18:47 <iceTwy> screen is a pain in the neck
1845 2013-11-15 23:19:14 <sipa> from the manual:
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1847 2013-11-15 23:19:16 <sipa> ·  A weird imagination is most useful to gain full advantage of all the features.
1848 2013-11-15 23:19:44 <deego> iceTwy: how so? :)
1849 2013-11-15 23:20:15 <iceTwy> deego: ah, well, it's amazing when you get it running. but there are a lot of traps to bypass
1850 2013-11-15 23:20:17 <iceTwy> :p
1851 2013-11-15 23:20:57 <deego> :)
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1894 2013-11-15 23:52:24 <danneu> "
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