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  27 2013-11-16 00:41:34 <gmaxwell> any idea if the bitcoind executable is included in the OSX package in 0.8.5?
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  34 2013-11-16 00:44:08 <fanquake> gmaxwell It isn't.
  35 2013-11-16 00:44:29 <gmaxwell> :-/
  36 2013-11-16 00:44:38 <gmaxwell> Why do we leave that out?
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  38 2013-11-16 00:46:18 <fanquake> Not sure. Don't think it's ever been included.
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  41 2013-11-16 00:49:35 <jegz> omg block data is so big now
  42 2013-11-16 00:49:41 crass has joined
  43 2013-11-16 00:49:48 <jegz> when i started with bitcoin a couple months ago it was like 11GB
  44 2013-11-16 00:49:51 <jegz> now it's 14GB
  45 2013-11-16 00:49:54 <jegz> that's like 1GB a month
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  47 2013-11-16 00:54:20 <Emcy> not big
  48 2013-11-16 00:55:01 <gmaxwell> jegz: at that rate it'll take three years to catch up to the size of single commercial video games being released today. I wonder how big video games will be in three years? :P
  49 2013-11-16 00:55:25 <gmaxwell> Not really development discussion however.
  50 2013-11-16 00:55:51 <jegz> oh shit this channel getting some serious moderation now? :p
  51 2013-11-16 00:56:08 <jegz> sorry i'll try to stay OT
  52 2013-11-16 00:59:56 <owowo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeJkbqjQvnk
  53 2013-11-16 00:59:57 * owowo runs away :P
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  81 2013-11-16 02:02:07 <skinnkavaj> I find this interesting
  82 2013-11-16 02:02:08 <skinnkavaj> https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,7147.0.html
  83 2013-11-16 02:02:57 <skinnkavaj> "Bitcoin Qt has the same problem, and oddly enough many users including the devs are completely unable to reproduce the problem. It seems to be hardware or configuration specific.
  84 2013-11-16 02:02:57 <skinnkavaj> Gavin is offering a 5 BTC bounty to anyone who 1) can explain how it happens and 2) provide a fix that is acceptable for inclusion in Bitcoin."
  85 2013-11-16 02:03:29 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  86 2013-11-16 02:06:31 <skinnkavaj> October 2011 Mt. Gox Loss
  87 2013-11-16 02:06:31 <skinnkavaj> Type: Loss
  88 2013-11-16 02:06:31 <skinnkavaj> Time: 2011-10-28T21:11 (UTC) [blockchain time, off by up to three hours]
  89 2013-11-16 02:06:31 <skinnkavaj> Victim: Mt. Gox
  90 2013-11-16 02:06:31 <skinnkavaj> Status: Coins destroyed (no thief)
  91 2013-11-16 02:06:32 <skinnkavaj> Amount: Exactly 2609.36304319 BTC
  92 2013-11-16 02:06:36 <skinnkavaj> How did the coins get destroyed?
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 123 2013-11-16 03:07:03 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: IIRC they sent them to an unredeemable scriptPubKey
 124 2013-11-16 03:07:22 <gmaxwell> HASH160 of "0"
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 126 2013-11-16 03:10:47 <Emcy> wow
 127 2013-11-16 03:10:57 <skinnkavaj> Allinvain Theft
 128 2013-11-16 03:11:03 <skinnkavaj> "Although the hack attracted great attention in its day, said fame has mostly subsided. Even today, however, the hack still affects Bitcoiners. A common debate among Bitcoin users is that of “tainting” coins, and this hack is often used as an example for why “tainting” coins is futile. In just a few years, coins stolen in this hack are now present in nearly every user's wallet.
 129 2013-11-16 03:11:04 <skinnkavaj> This rapid redistribution is often cited as a reason that a tainted coin system would certainly fail."
 130 2013-11-16 03:11:48 <skinnkavaj> Thanks Luke-Jr
 131 2013-11-16 03:11:59 <Emcy> that problem is extra stange on mac considering the hardware can actually be a known quantity
 132 2013-11-16 03:12:22 <Emcy> perhaps macs have this ultra subtle flaw that only bitcoin somehow exposes
 133 2013-11-16 03:12:37 <Emcy> perhaps relating to the proprietary ssds apple uses
 134 2013-11-16 03:13:29 <Emcy> wouldnt that be a thing
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 138 2013-11-16 03:19:28 <gmaxwell> Emcy: not even all macs.
 139 2013-11-16 03:19:56 patcon has joined
 140 2013-11-16 03:19:56 <Emcy> firmware revisions?
 141 2013-11-16 03:20:19 <Emcy> you know i think some macbooks had to have thier ssds reflashed for something too
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 143 2013-11-16 03:21:08 <Emcy> mite b good if you got people with affected macs to send thier serial numbers in to see if its a batch or a model
 144 2013-11-16 03:21:32 <gmaxwell> we did find out some SSD model numbers from some people. I don't think it turned out to be enlightening.
 145 2013-11-16 03:21:49 <Emcy> hmm
 146 2013-11-16 03:22:19 <Emcy> well ive got an easier solution: just wait for the brutal apple hardware upgrade cycle to wash the problem away
 147 2013-11-16 03:22:23 <Emcy> only half joking
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 153 2013-11-16 03:36:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: so what do you think of a BIP32 wallet convention where child chains are concurrently checked starting from chain ID 0 and also from chain ID = block height. ?
 154 2013-11-16 03:37:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: luke is working on implementing BIP32 public derrivation for repeated payments from eligius, and the cordination required to atomically increment a counter per user is a bit tricky.  I'm not sure if that challenge is unique to him or common to crop up elsewhere.
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 157 2013-11-16 03:45:43 <super3> gmaxwell, sorry had to leave for a bit. did you see the rest of my message?
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 159 2013-11-16 03:51:38 <justusranvier> I wonder if there's any way to describe the arbitrary complexity of the address structures that can be derived from a single BIP32 seed that's simpler than some sort of interpreted bytecode.
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 164 2013-11-16 04:05:50 <PRab> Bit of a random thought, but I wish that a bitcoin address refereed to the same construct as a BIP32 "Recurrent business-to-business transactions" address.
 165 2013-11-16 04:07:22 <PRab> I've seen some talk on the bitcoin mailing list about using the protocol to send multiple payment addresses, but if that construct was used just 1 "address" would need to get sent and an infinite number of address could be generated.
 166 2013-11-16 04:07:57 <PRab> ^ the *Payment* protocol
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 339 2013-11-16 09:13:25 <wumpus> so... that's it then, I've merged coin control
 340 2013-11-16 09:13:47 enodios has joined
 341 2013-11-16 09:14:24 <gmaxwell> \O/
 342 2013-11-16 09:15:03 <gmaxwell> About time that went in.
 343 2013-11-16 09:15:08 * gmaxwell pops the cork
 344 2013-11-16 09:15:25 <wumpus> indeed, the guy has been maintaining it for more than a year
 345 2013-11-16 09:16:43 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 346 2013-11-16 09:17:56 <warren> Horray.  Coin Control!
 347 2013-11-16 09:18:04 Guest53797 has quit (Changing host)
 348 2013-11-16 09:18:04 Guest53797 has joined
 349 2013-11-16 09:18:06 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #459: FAILURE in 40 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/459/
 350 2013-11-16 09:18:07 enodios has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 351 2013-11-16 09:18:16 <warren> Horray?
 352 2013-11-16 09:18:24 gritball has joined
 353 2013-11-16 09:18:32 Guest53797 is now known as Hasimir
 354 2013-11-16 09:18:38 <wumpus> wut @ BlueMattBot
 355 2013-11-16 09:20:39 <gmaxwell> 10:05:45 11 BitcoinSerializer.makeMessage: No support for deserializing message with name reject
 356 2013-11-16 09:20:42 <gmaxwell> 10:05:45 11 Peer.processMessage: Received unhandled message: Unknown message [reject]:
 357 2013-11-16 09:20:42 <wumpus> both pulls I've merged today were PASSED by the pulltester, and I've built and tested them myself too
 358 2013-11-16 09:20:50 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure if thats fatal
 359 2013-11-16 09:21:04 <wumpus> make[2]: *** [check-local] Killed
 360 2013-11-16 09:22:07 yubrew has joined
 361 2013-11-16 09:22:15 <gmaxwell> ran out of memory?
 362 2013-11-16 09:22:34 * Luke-Jr thinks pulltester is broken more often than it isn't.
 363 2013-11-16 09:22:39 <wumpus> I think that's most likely
 364 2013-11-16 09:22:47 <warren> pulltestertester?
 365 2013-11-16 09:23:22 * Luke-Jr blames Java.
 366 2013-11-16 09:23:26 <wumpus> nah overall the pulltester works pretty well, last few days there have been some problems, but when it works you hardly notice it :)
 367 2013-11-16 09:23:29 <gmaxwell> meh. infrastructure is hard.
 368 2013-11-16 09:23:31 fionnan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 369 2013-11-16 09:23:42 <gmaxwell> it's worth a bit of trouble in any case.
 370 2013-11-16 09:23:57 <wumpus> right
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 376 2013-11-16 09:28:29 <Polyatomic> Is it possible to turn on the notification when bitcoind receives coin like Bitcoin-QT.
 377 2013-11-16 09:28:55 douglas has joined
 378 2013-11-16 09:29:46 <Luke-Jr> Polyatomic: -walletnotify
 379 2013-11-16 09:31:46 <Polyatomic> beauty cheers man. Can I put that in the conf file ?.
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 391 2013-11-16 09:51:14 <Luke-Jr> Polyatomic: any option can be in the conf
 392 2013-11-16 09:51:32 deepc0re has joined
 393 2013-11-16 09:52:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: datadir and the config file options not so much
 394 2013-11-16 09:52:57 <Luke-Jr> true
 395 2013-11-16 09:53:13 <Luke-Jr> but that should be obvious <.<
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 400 2013-11-16 09:59:24 <wumpus> you can provide the datadir in the config file AFAIK
 401 2013-11-16 10:00:09 <wumpus> (the datadir cache is cleared after the config file is parsed)
 402 2013-11-16 10:01:59 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it won't use it to find the config file of course
 403 2013-11-16 10:02:07 <wumpus> hehe, no it won't :)
 404 2013-11-16 10:02:22 <wumpus> it's primarily useful if you specify a config file
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 407 2013-11-16 10:07:03 <warren> I'm going ahead with posting the macosx corruption bounty.  I want someplace for people to donate to increase the size of the bounty.
 408 2013-11-16 10:07:12 Transisto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 409 2013-11-16 10:07:13 <warren> Is there a reputable way to do this?
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 411 2013-11-16 10:07:28 Beef has joined
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 413 2013-11-16 10:08:06 <gmaxwell> warren: it's already reasonably big to pay for one fix...
 414 2013-11-16 10:08:29 <gmaxwell> why don't we get one of the apple employees here to get someone to look at it. ::cough::
 415 2013-11-16 10:09:18 Gabralkhan has joined
 416 2013-11-16 10:09:50 <wumpus> hehe, given apple's hate for bitcoin that would be difficult
 417 2013-11-16 10:11:18 <wumpus> warren: I guess using a 2-out-of-three address with reputable developers (such as used for the coinjoin fund) would be reputable way to store the bounty.. of course this need to be people that can actually check that the corruption is fixed, so it wouldn't make sense for (say) me to partake in it
 418 2013-11-16 10:11:36 oru has joined
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 420 2013-11-16 10:12:18 <warren> a lot of users can reproduce it easily
 421 2013-11-16 10:12:24 <warren> our mac dev can't reproduce it AT ALL
 422 2013-11-16 10:12:29 <warren> gavin apparently can
 423 2013-11-16 10:13:09 <wumpus> so the first step would be finding a way to predictably reproduce it, otherwise someone may get the bounty and the problem is back the next day :p
 424 2013-11-16 10:13:45 <gmaxwell> I really thought I had it with that last extra missing fsync.
 425 2013-11-16 10:14:19 enodios has joined
 426 2013-11-16 10:14:59 <warren> gmaxwell: I think we had multiple distinct issues
 427 2013-11-16 10:15:08 <warren> gmaxwell: some that were NOT fixed with -reindex, some that are
 428 2013-11-16 10:15:26 saizai has joined
 429 2013-11-16 10:15:27 <warren> the remaining issue happens after clean shutdown
 430 2013-11-16 10:15:28 <wumpus> maybe getting a leveldb expert involved may be a good idea, they may be able to investigate the corruption at a low level =
 431 2013-11-16 10:15:54 <warren> hmm, I just had a hunch
 432 2013-11-16 10:16:01 <warren> but i can' test it without reproducing the bug!
 433 2013-11-16 10:16:19 yubrew has joined
 434 2013-11-16 10:16:28 <saizai> Hi all. Could I please get a check of https://docs.google.com/document/d/19I1DRh49TCf4A0fMgqL7MLci3G6aD3Q6kB4-9TgaqB0/ for technical precision? (Again, mind that I'm trying to explain this to people who are really really not technical, so I need to do so in terms they'll understand.)
 435 2013-11-16 10:16:42 mattco has joined
 436 2013-11-16 10:17:16 <saizai> points 5-7 are the relevant ones
 437 2013-11-16 10:17:21 <saizai> the rest is legal / policy stuff
 438 2013-11-16 10:17:23 <gmaxwell> warren: well my leading hypothesis is that some mac hardware/software/firmware versions just randomly corrupt things and most other software is just not sensitive enough to notice.
 439 2013-11-16 10:17:57 <warren> gmaxwell: these reports began only with leveldb?
 440 2013-11-16 10:18:28 <warren> gmaxwell: perhaps it was kept stable only with the reality distortion field, that is now fading.
 441 2013-11-16 10:18:48 enodios has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 442 2013-11-16 10:19:07 <gmaxwell> warren: nah we had corruption with bdb too— it was (much?) less common.  Though it also happened on non-mac systems, so it may have been unrelated.
 443 2013-11-16 10:19:59 wei___ has joined
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 445 2013-11-16 10:21:33 Tom_Soft has joined
 446 2013-11-16 10:21:43 <warren> have there been any corruption reports from macosx 10.7?
 447 2013-11-16 10:21:49 <warren> I've seen 10.8+
 448 2013-11-16 10:25:17 <saizai> (if I go offline, which I may soon as I need to sleep, please use comments in the gdoc)
 449 2013-11-16 10:26:40 <warren> I put an old macbook with a dead screen into a data center, accessible only via VPN.  Quite nice to use mac without having to touch one.
 450 2013-11-16 10:28:20 ircuser-6 has joined
 451 2013-11-16 10:30:56 <sipa> saizai: how can you have a $100/contribitor/recipient/year limit, if you cannot identify contributors?
 452 2013-11-16 10:31:15 <saizai> sipa: based on who they claim to be
 453 2013-11-16 10:31:38 <saizai> at least then they have to make up a bunch of different name/address/email/etc combos
 454 2013-11-16 10:31:51 <saizai> and then that'll raise flags when the mail bounces
 455 2013-11-16 10:32:41 <saizai> the $100 is based on existing regulation, which says that for attributed cash contributions, it's $100 limit
 456 2013-11-16 10:32:54 <saizai> vs check or credit card or paypal or whanot that's at least traceable
 457 2013-11-16 10:33:25 <saizai> (though yes you can buy a card with cash that can be traced too, and you can't easily buy $5k worth of stored value cards that way)
 458 2013-11-16 10:34:07 <saizai> but if not, it's a superpac.
 459 2013-11-16 10:34:20 <saizai> they'd be able to take any unlimited amount
 460 2013-11-16 10:34:31 <saizai> which, y'know, seems like a Bad Idea when it comes to bitcoin + superpac
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 475 2013-11-16 11:06:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: i don't like specifying extra tree structure on top of what is already there
 476 2013-11-16 11:07:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: the pool can know how many times it did a payout already, no?
 477 2013-11-16 11:08:27 <gmaxwell> I didn't think you'd like it much, I didn't either really, kinda wanted a sanity check. Right now his process has no persistant state... something happens it has an address attached it's forgotten.
 478 2013-11-16 11:09:31 <sipa> i think it's easier to add this complexity to pool software than to all wallets ever
 479 2013-11-16 11:09:36 <gmaxwell> I encountered similar but not so easily cheated trouble when I went to make a simple cgi to issue addresses, 99% of the complexity is in portablity atomically incrementing a counter for multiple requests. :)  (in a real web app it's no biggie as you have some database handy, but I wanted to do something that could be very easily deployed)
 480 2013-11-16 11:10:13 <sipa> but i know very little about pool server implementations
 481 2013-11-16 11:10:13 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, fair enough— as I said, I just wanted a second opinion.
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 484 2013-11-16 11:10:33 <gmaxwell> sipa: I suspect its basically only a problem for luke on the pool side, and not an insurmountable one.
 485 2013-11-16 11:10:44 <sipa> ok
 486 2013-11-16 11:11:07 pablog has joined
 487 2013-11-16 11:11:12 <gmaxwell> (well similar problems will hit other people, but most of those couldn't usefully do something like use the block number in any case)
 488 2013-11-16 11:13:07 <sipa> i'm wondering about integration of bip32 and watch-only
 489 2013-11-16 11:13:27 valparaiso is now known as valparaiso_afk
 490 2013-11-16 11:13:31 <sipa> as watch-only is fundamentally about scripts, while bip32 and spending is about keys
 491 2013-11-16 11:13:48 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 492 2013-11-16 11:14:00 <sipa> you need to have some template, which scripts refer to, along with a bip32 chain
 493 2013-11-16 11:14:15 <sipa> to trigger adding a new one when an old one gets used
 494 2013-11-16 11:14:17 owowo has joined
 495 2013-11-16 11:14:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: I dunno if you saw swulf's stuff, but I got him doing p2sh multisig wallets using bip32 public chains.
 496 2013-11-16 11:14:46 <gmaxwell> e.g. so the p2sh wallet isn't just a single address.
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 499 2013-11-16 11:14:51 <sipa> cool
 500 2013-11-16 11:14:55 <sipa> yes, indeed
 501 2013-11-16 11:15:01 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 502 2013-11-16 11:15:08 <sipa> the template can refer to multiple chains
 503 2013-11-16 11:15:21 <gmaxwell> just a webpage right now, http://ms-brainwallet.github.io/#bip32
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 505 2013-11-16 11:16:07 <gmaxwell> he came up with this "extended public key package" that embeds the things needed to templatize the addresses, the obvious thing to do— could use some refinement but I think it's the right direction.
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 534 2013-11-16 12:11:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: excellent!
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 563 2013-11-16 13:14:02 <edcba> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6743393 interesting
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 645 2013-11-16 13:36:24 <JyZyXEL> if someone sends you coins with 0 fee and it looks like it will never get confirmed, can you do something about it?
 646 2013-11-16 13:36:46 <sipa> pay a miner to prioritize the transaction
 647 2013-11-16 13:37:04 <JyZyXEL> how does that happen in practice?
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 649 2013-11-16 13:38:06 <sipa> you poke Luke-Jr :)
 650 2013-11-16 13:38:34 <JyZyXEL> i wonder if it would help if you tried to spend those coins with standard fee included
 651 2013-11-16 13:40:00 <sipa> some miners do child-pays-for-parent indeed
 652 2013-11-16 13:41:48 <edcba> there is a more straightforward solution
 653 2013-11-16 13:41:49 <JyZyXEL> oh so thats what it is called
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 655 2013-11-16 13:41:54 <edcba> mine it yourself !
 656 2013-11-16 13:42:18 <JyZyXEL> edcba: haha with a normal desktop PC, it'll take a while :p
 657 2013-11-16 13:42:39 <edcba> does official client prioritize paid to self tx ?
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 663 2013-11-16 13:52:25 <JyZyXEL> and if the sender tried to double-spend the coins with a fee, all the honest nodes would probably reject it?
 664 2013-11-16 13:52:53 <JyZyXEL> until the original 0 fee transaction has dropped completely out of the pool
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 667 2013-11-16 13:53:46 <sipa> ecdno
 668 2013-11-16 13:53:52 <sipa> edcba: no
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 670 2013-11-16 13:54:14 <sipa> JyZyXEL: there is no mechanism to remove it from a pool
 671 2013-11-16 13:54:26 <sipa> but nodes restart
 672 2013-11-16 13:54:35 <sipa> and some may not have seen your transavtion at all
 673 2013-11-16 13:54:55 <JyZyXEL> well i sent a double spend anyways
 674 2013-11-16 13:55:14 <sipa> are you the sender or the receiver?
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 676 2013-11-16 13:56:06 <JyZyXEL> initially, the receiver, but there always was the option to ask my friend to double spend it
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 678 2013-11-16 13:57:23 <JyZyXEL> remains to be seen what happens now
 679 2013-11-16 13:57:47 <JyZyXEL> i have no idea if any miner will accept a double spend
 680 2013-11-16 13:58:05 <JyZyXEL> at least its not a bigger fee over standard fee type of deal
 681 2013-11-16 13:58:16 <JyZyXEL> the fee over no-fee seems less malicious
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 685 2013-11-16 14:01:41 <JyZyXEL> oh, looks like GHash.IO did mine the double spend for me
 686 2013-11-16 14:01:56 <gmaxwell> They're good at that apparently.
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 688 2013-11-16 14:03:42 <JyZyXEL> isn't that nice of them :))
 689 2013-11-16 14:04:43 <Alina-malina> what are theydoing? that Ghash.io website?
 690 2013-11-16 14:04:55 <Alina-malina> is it a mining pool?
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 692 2013-11-16 14:05:08 <JyZyXEL> they are helping me double spend coins
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 694 2013-11-16 14:05:25 <Alina-malina> you mean you can spend 1 coin at 2 places at the same time?
 695 2013-11-16 14:05:45 agath_pd is now known as agath
 696 2013-11-16 14:05:51 <JyZyXEL> meaning i can pay you for something, then take the money back
 697 2013-11-16 14:06:00 <Alina-malina> wait a minute how is that possible?
 698 2013-11-16 14:06:24 <JyZyXEL> because i for them to do it!
 699 2013-11-16 14:06:30 <JyZyXEL> paid for them*
 700 2013-11-16 14:06:45 <Alina-malina> wow
 701 2013-11-16 14:07:32 <Alina-malina> what a technology is that? Do they have such a huge amount of power? or use special algorightm? I i hardly can understand how bitcoin works and now this making my mind locked
 702 2013-11-16 14:08:02 <Alina-malina> some kind of a God Mode
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 705 2013-11-16 14:11:45 <JyZyXEL> Alina-malina: there was a great paper written about this
 706 2013-11-16 14:12:04 <JyZyXEL> http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/248.pdf
 707 2013-11-16 14:12:10 <tholenst> Alina-malina, see for example here: http://codinginmysleep.com/bitcoin-attacks-in-plain-english/ (under Race Attack)
 708 2013-11-16 14:12:23 <gmaxwell> Well I was mostly commenting on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=327767.0
 709 2013-11-16 14:13:36 <gmaxwell> I think it's an example of a free market failure, at least in the short term, they have a fifth of the hashpower captive because they got eager people to pay a huge multiple of market rate to "purchase" hosted mining equipment— since it was hosted it was available to buy when other things were waiting on preorder— which the purchasers don't control...
 710 2013-11-16 14:13:42 <tholenst> Alina-malina: Essentially, you cannot spend a bitcoin twice. However, if you have a bitcoin, you can tell two people you're gonna give it to them, and give them a "transaction" which does that -- however, only one transaction is ever gonna land in the block chain and be the one that counts
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 713 2013-11-16 14:14:11 <Alina-malina> tholenst, so?
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 715 2013-11-16 14:15:28 <tholenst> Alina-malina: Well, if the two persons give you something in return for it, you gained something.
 716 2013-11-16 14:15:53 <Alina-malina> how is that possible to spend bitcoin twice at the same time?
 717 2013-11-16 14:16:03 <sipa> it is only spent once
 718 2013-11-16 14:16:14 <sipa> but for a while, it was uncertain who would get it
 719 2013-11-16 14:16:24 <edcba> sign 2 documents telling you give your car to different persons
 720 2013-11-16 14:16:32 <edcba> only 1 will get the car for sure
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 722 2013-11-16 14:16:52 <Alina-malina> oh, so what tool is needed for that?
 723 2013-11-16 14:16:56 <sipa> the name double spend is misleading
 724 2013-11-16 14:17:11 <sipa> it's really just reverting a not-yet-certain transaction
 725 2013-11-16 14:17:41 <edcba> Alina-malina: a modified/custom client
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 727 2013-11-16 14:18:06 <edcba> and gullible services
 728 2013-11-16 14:18:19 <sipa> note that there is no victim here
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 730 2013-11-16 14:18:50 <sipa> so it is only a problem if services see a not yet confirmed transaction as a guaranteed income
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 732 2013-11-16 14:19:04 <gmaxwell> not yet 'sufficiently' confirmed.
 733 2013-11-16 14:19:07 <edcba> guaranteed income or acceptable rik
 734 2013-11-16 14:19:10 <edcba> risk
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 736 2013-11-16 14:19:33 <gmaxwell> since, of course, with the sutiable application of hashpower many several blocks deep can be reverted.
 737 2013-11-16 14:19:44 <gmaxwell> s/many //
 738 2013-11-16 14:20:04 <edcba> if your client is sufficiently well connected to different peers, it may detect double spend coins easily
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 740 2013-11-16 14:21:25 <gmaxwell> thats not true.
 741 2013-11-16 14:21:49 <gmaxwell> Today at least they do not propagate, the attacker isn't required to announce them widely in any case, especially if he has hashpower.
 742 2013-11-16 14:22:08 <gmaxwell> And afaik no existing wallet software detects them and displays them.
 743 2013-11-16 14:22:13 <edcba> i didn't want to tell the whole story...
 744 2013-11-16 14:22:19 <gmaxwell> (and any that does could be tripped up by false alarms)
 745 2013-11-16 14:22:36 <gmaxwell> edcba: don't tell comforting fibs then, Bitcoin doesn't need exageration to cover its current weaknesses.
 746 2013-11-16 14:22:39 <edcba> but i wanted to ask if there was some api in bitcoind for that
 747 2013-11-16 14:23:22 <gmaxwell> no, because at least today it wouldn't be very useful  (may not ever be very useful, but it could be more useful than now)
 748 2013-11-16 14:23:26 <edcba> gmaxwell: the more truthy story is not really probable as of now
 749 2013-11-16 14:23:45 <edcba> could be useful if you want to accept quicly transactions
 750 2013-11-16 14:23:51 <edcba> quickly
 751 2013-11-16 14:24:07 <edcba> ie assure the tx has been well spread
 752 2013-11-16 14:24:09 <edcba> then accept
 753 2013-11-16 14:24:45 <gmaxwell> edcba: that does far less than you think.
 754 2013-11-16 14:25:19 <gmaxwell> attacker simultaniously hands the conflict to a single 30% hashpower miner, and the txn paying you to the whole rest of the network.
 755 2013-11-16 14:25:36 <gmaxwell> it will spread very well, you'll never hear the conflict, and his theft will be successful ~1/3rd of the time.
 756 2013-11-16 14:25:48 <gmaxwell> If he has the miners cooperation, all the better.
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 758 2013-11-16 14:26:08 <gmaxwell> (in that case, even if in the future the network relays conflicts, it won't help you)
 759 2013-11-16 14:27:04 * TD is tempted to make an observation about fungibility here
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 761 2013-11-16 14:27:09 <edcba> yeah indeed should be quite rare event hopefully
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 763 2013-11-16 14:28:30 <JyZyXEL> gmaxwell: do you know if GHash.IO accepts double spends where there is a bigger fee over a fee?
 764 2013-11-16 14:28:56 <edcba> so the 2 most realizable attacks are : step0 2 tx at same time or step0 mine a block with tx to your, step1 use that coin elsewhere
 765 2013-11-16 14:28:56 <tholenst> I think I now have a way to make 0-conf transactions practically possible, and I'm trying to implement it... but it's gonna take a while...
 766 2013-11-16 14:29:24 <sipa> tholenst: how do you mean possible?
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 768 2013-11-16 14:29:55 <edcba> the 2 step attacks is impossible to defend if you want very quick confirmation but step0 is 'costful"
 769 2013-11-16 14:30:03 <tholenst> well, you can accept a transaction without confirmation, and if someone tries to cheat you, he's gonna lose money
 770 2013-11-16 14:30:35 <edcba> how ??
 771 2013-11-16 14:30:38 <tholenst> im my solution if someone cheats you he loses money, but you probably won't get the money yourself, though :)
 772 2013-11-16 14:32:19 <gmaxwell> lesson is mostly to not make irreversable transactions without waiting for confirmation unless you have some other way to cope with fraud. If you can do that you're golden. Esp. if you're not automated, one of the worst risk is that someone hits you hard all at once and robs you blind, but can't happen for cases where some human is intermediating the transaction.
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 774 2013-11-16 14:33:05 <sipa> tholenst: can you elaborate?
 775 2013-11-16 14:33:11 <gmaxwell> tholenst is talking about the scorched earth policy, if someone double spends you, you spend the original spend to fees, and if miners prefer higher fees... the attack doesn't get the coins either. It's like a economist wet dream.
 776 2013-11-16 14:33:16 <edcba> gmaxwell: the easiest way is to limit number and amount of unconfirmed tx ?
 777 2013-11-16 14:33:17 <tholenst> well, in my solution you'd need a new kind of account (i.e., a new transaction signature opcode instead of "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 etc..."
 778 2013-11-16 14:33:26 <gmaxwell> or not?
 779 2013-11-16 14:34:13 <tholenst> the idea is that you have an account, and there are two ways to get the money off: a very slow one, where you can specify the target address, and a very fast one, where the money goes to say the next 1000 miners
 780 2013-11-16 14:34:34 <gmaxwell> an account?
 781 2013-11-16 14:34:50 <tholenst> well, it's a txout with a different opcode
 782 2013-11-16 14:34:51 <sipa> the bitcoin protocol has no accounts, wallets or balances
 783 2013-11-16 14:35:01 <edcba> "account" in btc chain i guess
 784 2013-11-16 14:35:16 <gmaxwell>  the bitcoin chain has no accounts, wallets or balances
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 786 2013-11-16 14:35:26 <tholenst> yes, a txout where the script isn't OP_DUP OP_HASH160 ... OP_EQUALVERIFY etc
 787 2013-11-16 14:35:50 <tholenst> but a script with a new opcode (and also a single pubkeyhash)
 788 2013-11-16 14:35:58 <sipa> unless you're going to expose extra context to the script evaluation, i don't see how an extra opcode can help you
 789 2013-11-16 14:36:06 <gmaxwell> tholenst: can you please describe what you intend to accomplish at a high level instead of implementation details which you probably don't understand well enough to describe?
 790 2013-11-16 14:36:15 <sipa> the problem exists outside of a single chain, and script eva
 791 2013-11-16 14:36:22 <sipa> uation only works wiythin one chaim
 792 2013-11-16 14:36:38 <sipa> evaluation, withimn
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 794 2013-11-16 14:37:33 <edcba> gmaxwell: i think he wants ppl to commit spendable amount of btc before being able to "quicky" spend them
 795 2013-11-16 14:37:46 <tholenst> gmaxwell: sure ;) so, i put money on this new address A, ok? so, if I want to send you a transaction from a normal account, I add a transaction which says: "if you find a double spend of this, give all the money from A to the miners"
 796 2013-11-16 14:38:48 <tholenst> (e.g., the money from A is divided up evenly among the next 100 block rewards)
 797 2013-11-16 14:39:06 <edcba> 'evenly'
 798 2013-11-16 14:39:55 <tholenst> now, if you do that, it would not work yet, because a miner might get out the money from A before the above is achieved -- but if there is no way to get the money out of A quickly, then it is possible
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 800 2013-11-16 14:40:19 <tholenst> i think i'm explaining it badly :(
 801 2013-11-16 14:40:29 <edcba> i understand it
 802 2013-11-16 14:40:46 <gmaxwell> tholenst: Your understanding of Bitcoin's working is inadequate for you to form an explination which is sensible in the context of Bitcoin, but I understand what you're saying.
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 805 2013-11-16 14:41:30 <gmaxwell> some old digital cash proposals constrained their signature systems so any double spend would reveal your private key, much with the same intent.
 806 2013-11-16 14:41:58 <edcba> hmm
 807 2013-11-16 14:41:58 <tholenst> you have to be somewhat careful: so for example, I want to be able to get money out of A to a usual address -- but that should be such that a double spend *later* in the blockchain can still override this transaction
 808 2013-11-16 14:42:20 <edcba> gmaxwell: i like that kind of idea :)
 809 2013-11-16 14:42:27 <gmaxwell> usefully expressing that in bitcoin terms will be somewhat difficult but not impossible. The unfortunate thing is that there are plenty of reasons to double spend honestly (e.g. to revise fees) and it's hard to permit those, and at the end it doesn't get the coins to the right party.
 810 2013-11-16 14:42:29 <sipa> a "dpouble spend" is impossible in a block chaim
 811 2013-11-16 14:42:34 <edcba> especially if you don't tell anyone lol
 812 2013-11-16 14:42:50 <gmaxwell> tholenst: you've got a deep misunderstanding of bitcoin you need to fix first before you think more about details.
 813 2013-11-16 14:42:56 <gmaxwell> tholenst: there are no accounts in bitcoin.
 814 2013-11-16 14:43:07 <gmaxwell> a coin is spent once, atomically.
 815 2013-11-16 14:43:09 <tholenst> ah, i just call the txout accounts :)
 816 2013-11-16 14:43:16 <sipa> you're talking about a chain reorganization, which reverses part of the transaction history, including your special opcode
 817 2013-11-16 14:43:23 <tholenst> no no, no chain reogranization!
 818 2013-11-16 14:43:23 <gmaxwell> they're spending is atomic and complete.
 819 2013-11-16 14:43:34 <gmaxwell> so there can be no race within a chain.
 820 2013-11-16 14:43:50 <gmaxwell> er s/they're/their/
 821 2013-11-16 14:43:53 <edcba> sipa: clients just need to be smart and include the tx favoring them the most
 822 2013-11-16 14:44:02 <sipa> not sure what you mean, tholenst
 823 2013-11-16 14:44:11 <sipa> there are no double spends within one chaim
 824 2013-11-16 14:44:21 <edcba> it's not yet in chain
 825 2013-11-16 14:44:21 <sipa> *chain
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 827 2013-11-16 14:45:21 <gmaxwell> in any case, tholenst's general idea would work in the context of bitcoin if checksig were slightly more powerful, with a somewhat different formualtion where you "bond" your transactions.
 828 2013-11-16 14:45:47 <edcba> i sign if A is double spent then reward to miners, i spend A. if i spend A twice then everything goes to miners
 829 2013-11-16 14:46:16 <sipa> one spend cannot observe another spend
 830 2013-11-16 14:46:28 <edcba> yeah that's why he needs some new OP_
 831 2013-11-16 14:46:36 <sipa> much more than that
 832 2013-11-16 14:46:46 <gmaxwell> edcba: no such op will be added, cross visiblity breaks a lot of things.
 833 2013-11-16 14:47:02 <gmaxwell> But allow me to recast the idea in a new light that would be vaguely viable in a somewhat improved bitcoin.
 834 2013-11-16 14:47:04 <edcba> i was just explaining the scheme
 835 2013-11-16 14:47:11 <edcba> i don't really agree with it :)
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 838 2013-11-16 14:48:22 <edcba> scripts having introspection powers would be nice
 839 2013-11-16 14:48:39 <tholenst> say, I have money in the "special txout S", and in the normal address "A". sipa has PubKey B. I will send a transaction (A->B) plus I sign a transaction which says: "if you see a double spend of A, then distribute all the money in S to the miners"
 840 2013-11-16 14:49:08 <gmaxwell> Alice pays some large amount into a special txout which can be redeemed by miners if they can provide in their scriptsig two transactions, one signed by a specified public key, and another transaction which pays to different outputs which consumes the same inputs.
 841 2013-11-16 14:49:11 <tholenst> a double spend here simply means: "two signatures to spend A"
 842 2013-11-16 14:49:27 <tholenst> ty gmaxwell
 843 2013-11-16 14:49:51 <gmaxwell> Then when alice wants to buy something— after the bond is nice and confirmed—, she presents the reciept with a copy of the txn signed by the special bond pubkey.
 844 2013-11-16 14:50:34 <gmaxwell> if alice signs a double spend and the reciever finds out about it (even if the double spend loses!), he can give up that original signature and the double spend to miners and the bond is released.
 845 2013-11-16 14:50:54 <gmaxwell> of course the bond could have some kind of timed refund or whatever.
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 847 2013-11-16 14:51:30 <gmaxwell> There are a bunch of limitations in this idea though, but its not crazy.
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 851 2013-11-16 14:52:01 <tholenst> there are problems, for example I cannot invalidate a transacations without some added functionality
 852 2013-11-16 14:52:22 <gmaxwell> tholenst: the way I described it requires no invalidation.
 853 2013-11-16 14:52:27 <gmaxwell> It doesn't break the layering.
 854 2013-11-16 14:52:43 <gmaxwell> it does require script to be powerful enough to parse a transaction embedded in a scriptsig, which it isn't.
 855 2013-11-16 14:52:59 <tholenst> gmaxwell: didn't you mention this above too? there are legitimate reasons to double spend, for example if nobody mines the transaction
 856 2013-11-16 14:53:39 <gmaxwell> tholenst: if the script parses the transactions then you can define the space of permitted doublespends, e.g. output matching.
 857 2013-11-16 14:53:55 <gmaxwell> or even specify in the signed golden transaction which outputs are the immutable ones.
 858 2013-11-16 14:54:46 <gmaxwell> tholenst: a simpler idea that has been proposed is that alice just locks her funds into a 2 of 2 escrow with an sign-once-entity trusted by alices recievers, with a precomputed refund.  If the entity is the reciever themselves in advance then there is no trust issue, and the benefit of this is that it actually prevents theft, rather than making the theif suffer a loss.
 859 2013-11-16 14:55:30 <gmaxwell> I wish script were currently powerful enough to enable the doublespend-bond idea for people to use if they like it, without me having to agree its a good idea. Alas.
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 861 2013-11-16 14:55:57 <tholenst> why do you think it's not a good idea?
 862 2013-11-16 14:56:55 <tholenst> the 'problem' with the other solution is that you need to trust someone
 863 2013-11-16 14:57:21 <gmaxwell> I think its not clear that its a good idea. It doesn't prevent the theft, it just (sometimes) makes the theif lose money. But you can do things like: the theif does a zillion double spends all at once and still has postitive expectation. Also, sometimes its valuable to hurt someone even at your own expense.
 864 2013-11-16 14:57:40 <tholenst> ok i agree with that
 865 2013-11-16 14:58:42 <gmaxwell> tholenst: if you google around you'll see peter todd has described very closely related schemes in some of his fidelity bond writings, which have had some of the same complaints.
 866 2013-11-16 14:59:04 <tholenst> there are more problems, for example how much do you put in your bond? can you add to it later?
 867 2013-11-16 14:59:23 <gmaxwell> tholenst: indeed, the anti-doublespend escrow involves trust unless the escrow is with the selfsame reciever (E.g. when you don't know how much you'll pay them until later, or aren't sure you'll go through with the payement)
 868 2013-11-16 14:59:32 <gmaxwell> tholenst: you just make more bonds
 869 2013-11-16 14:59:38 <tholenst> also, it would definitely require some kind of payment protocol, as otherwise it gets very complicated
 870 2013-11-16 14:59:38 <gmaxwell> (to increase the value)
 871 2013-11-16 15:00:33 <gmaxwell> tholenst: though the anti-doublespend escrows trust is not so bad, a bad escrow can at worst cause delays or conspire with the user to rip off a merchant.
 872 2013-11-16 15:00:38 <edcba> another implementation of same idea is simply update protocol with any double spent coin -> next x miners
 873 2013-11-16 15:01:02 <gmaxwell> edcba: no, thats very bad.
 874 2013-11-16 15:01:12 <edcba> why ?
 875 2013-11-16 15:01:21 <gmaxwell> edcba: I pay you. I get what I want. LOL I issue a double spend. haha coins to miners. sucks to be you.
 876 2013-11-16 15:01:41 <edcba> still same you don't have money
 877 2013-11-16 15:02:03 <gmaxwell> edcba: so? I got what I paid you for? plus if I'm a miner I got some fraction of the coins back too.
 878 2013-11-16 15:02:14 <tholenst> i dislike even more that it changes semantics of existing opcodes
 879 2013-11-16 15:02:28 <gmaxwell> tholenst: hm?
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 881 2013-11-16 15:02:37 <edcba> gmaxwell: the same problem exists in tholenst idea
 882 2013-11-16 15:02:55 <gmaxwell> edcba: not in my recasting of it.
 883 2013-11-16 15:03:06 <tholenst> no in my idea the bonds have *higher* value than the transaction
 884 2013-11-16 15:03:11 <tholenst> so you lose more money
 885 2013-11-16 15:03:14 <edcba> i don't like third party escrows :)
 886 2013-11-16 15:03:21 thermoman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 887 2013-11-16 15:03:29 <gmaxwell> edcba: reading comprehension error.
 888 2013-11-16 15:03:41 <edcba> i always fall for that one
 889 2013-11-16 15:03:48 thelorax123 has joined
 890 2013-11-16 15:04:01 <gmaxwell> edcba: the way I described tholenst's thing in the context of bitcoin is that the bond is totally disjoint. They aren't funds related to the payment at all.
 891 2013-11-16 15:04:13 <edcba> ok
 892 2013-11-16 15:04:44 <gmaxwell> tholenst: what peter had proposed that was similar to the two things combined, he proposed you have an sign-once system and can do the escrow transactions. And these signers have bonds which are released to miners if someone shows the sign-once party cheated.
 893 2013-11-16 15:04:58 thermoman has joined
 894 2013-11-16 15:05:24 <gmaxwell> tholenst: the advantage being that the sign once party could reasonably afford an enormous bond, and that unless that party cheats a double spend is impossible.
 895 2013-11-16 15:05:55 Tom_Soft has joined
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 897 2013-11-16 15:06:22 <tholenst> oh ok
 898 2013-11-16 15:06:34 hsmiths has quit (Quit: bit)
 899 2013-11-16 15:07:00 <tholenst> i'm not sure about my remark above about "semantics of existing opcodes" -- depends on how exactly edcba meant the proposal
 900 2013-11-16 15:07:18 hhww0101 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 901 2013-11-16 15:07:41 <gmaxwell> anything that makes one transaction influence another parallel transaction is a very deep break in how bitcoin works.
 902 2013-11-16 15:08:07 <gmaxwell> even trying to think up the implications of that is a rathole, usually you can recast any protocol into more bitcoiny terms though
 903 2013-11-16 15:08:31 hsmiths has joined
 904 2013-11-16 15:08:37 <tholenst> well, but in my idea it is really important that you cannot quickly get the money out of a bond
 905 2013-11-16 15:08:43 <gmaxwell> e.g. just make the bond totally seperate, and pack the proof-of-baddness transactions into the signature you use to release it.
 906 2013-11-16 15:08:45 <edcba> yes there is some complicated cases in my 'simple' solution
 907 2013-11-16 15:09:19 <gmaxwell> tholenst: sure you need to have the bond unredeemable until the future... and the bond becomes no-good when that date becomes near.
 908 2013-11-16 15:09:47 JontyX_ has joined
 909 2013-11-16 15:09:53 <tholenst> gmaxwell: i'd like it better if redeeming the bond just takes a day, than if i have to plan so much in advance
 910 2013-11-16 15:10:03 <gmaxwell> but considering we've just conjured into existance a txn parser in script, we can also just imagine a test against time in it.
 911 2013-11-16 15:10:13 JontyX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 912 2013-11-16 15:10:22 <gmaxwell> tholenst: thats not bitcoiny, thats a rapid descent into redesign everything.
 913 2013-11-16 15:10:30 Tom_Soft has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 914 2013-11-16 15:10:38 <gmaxwell> tholenst: whatcha gonna do, have a consensus system about your consensus system? :P
 915 2013-11-16 15:10:53 <tholenst> no, just... to redeem the bond in 1 day, you need to announce it now
 916 2013-11-16 15:11:10 <gmaxwell> tholenst: I say you didn't really announce it.
 917 2013-11-16 15:11:23 <tholenst> announcments go into the block chain
 918 2013-11-16 15:11:34 <gmaxwell> why would a miner ever mine one of those? :P
 919 2013-11-16 15:11:34 <tholenst> once it's in there, 144 blocks later i can redeem the bond
 920 2013-11-16 15:11:42 <tholenst> :) I'll add a fee!
 921 2013-11-16 15:11:43 <edcba> gmaxwell: haha
 922 2013-11-16 15:11:56 <edcba> all those pesky details :)
 923 2013-11-16 15:12:03 <tholenst> yes, there are details there
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 925 2013-11-16 15:12:24 <edcba> even when technically sane, bitcoin can become incentive crazy :)
 926 2013-11-16 15:12:35 <gmaxwell> tholenst: regardless, breaking the every spend consumes its coin model breaks a lot of the design.
 927 2013-11-16 15:13:02 <gmaxwell> tholenst: so then you end up in the lame land of coin covenants.
 928 2013-11-16 15:13:06 <edcba> what i don't like is it complicate things for the user
 929 2013-11-16 15:13:28 <edcba> and it seems bitcoin is already enough complicated...
 930 2013-11-16 15:13:34 thermoman has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 931 2013-11-16 15:13:37 <gmaxwell> (e.g. this transaction can only be spent by a transaction meeting these criteria)
 932 2013-11-16 15:14:01 <tholenst> what point are you saying breaks the "breaking every spend consumes its coin"? The bond redeeming?
 933 2013-11-16 15:14:01 <gmaxwell> edcba: well things get done by software behind the scenes.
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 936 2013-11-16 15:14:40 <tholenst> oh you answered my question :) ty!
 937 2013-11-16 15:15:10 <edcba> gmaxwell: i didn't run my client since 1 year, why can't i spent my coin right now !
 938 2013-11-16 15:15:21 <edcba> you will have that kind of problem
 939 2013-11-16 15:16:01 <edcba> same for new users
 940 2013-11-16 15:16:33 <gmaxwell> edcba: "why can I not make an instant payment?" you mean?
 941 2013-11-16 15:17:03 <tholenst> gmaxwell: I think he means "Why can't i spend the money i have in my bond"
 942 2013-11-16 15:17:09 enodios has joined
 943 2013-11-16 15:17:34 <gmaxwell> tholenst: ah, well thats why the bonding only a third party is better. :P
 944 2013-11-16 15:17:49 <edcba> lol
 945 2013-11-16 15:18:07 <gmaxwell> edcba: watcha loling about?
 946 2013-11-16 15:18:38 reneg has joined
 947 2013-11-16 15:18:43 <edcba> bitcoin complexity, futil proposal, all that
 948 2013-11-16 15:19:02 <gmaxwell> pft. this is hardly complex.
 949 2013-11-16 15:19:30 <JyZyXEL> http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/H81%20Pro%20BTC/
 950 2013-11-16 15:19:39 <JyZyXEL> oh wow asrock released a bitcoin motherboard :p
 951 2013-11-16 15:20:04 <edcba> maybe not right now, but each time you want to evolve something you have to check for technical, economical and ergonomical problems
 952 2013-11-16 15:20:15 <gmaxwell> go look at my _joke_ ideas, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278122.0  or actual serious protocols with 26 steps, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=321228.0
 953 2013-11-16 15:21:24 thermoman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 954 2013-11-16 15:21:28 <tholenst> I think my proposal isn't terribly complicated -- but given that people just accept 0conf transactions, I think it might not even be used
 955 2013-11-16 15:21:29 <gmaxwell> edcba: yea indeed, well one reason I am not a great fan of economic hacks like destroying coins on misconduct is that its hard to convince people that economic motivations work. And for good reasons, theives are often not very economically rational!
 956 2013-11-16 15:21:43 enodios has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 957 2013-11-16 15:22:10 <tholenst> true, but if 0conf works 99% of the time it's probably still better than VISA
 958 2013-11-16 15:22:19 <gmaxwell> edcba: though you can often cut out the economical considerations by making protocols that don't have any real hooks for too many weird incentives.
 959 2013-11-16 15:22:44 <edcba> tholenst: using yourself as your own assurance is better than visa
 960 2013-11-16 15:22:45 thermoman has joined
 961 2013-11-16 15:22:52 <edcba> (for small costs)
 962 2013-11-16 15:23:13 <gmaxwell> tholenst: percentage is often not the right way to think about attacks.  E.g. there is a pixel on your website which, due to a bug, clicking rewards the clicker 1 bitcoin... whats the chance any random user will click it? one in a million.
 963 2013-11-16 15:23:31 <edcba> risk*cost
 964 2013-11-16 15:23:34 <gmaxwell> tholenst: and yet if you had such a pixel, you'd go months or years without trouble and then in hours or minutes find yourself broke. :)
 965 2013-11-16 15:23:45 meLon has joined
 966 2013-11-16 15:23:54 <gmaxwell> so this complicates risk because attackers are adaptive and the risk*cost has a funny distribution.
 967 2013-11-16 15:24:02 <edcba> fight club analysis :p
 968 2013-11-16 15:24:13 <gmaxwell> The risk is often ~0 until its 100%
 969 2013-11-16 15:24:30 <edcba> yeah the problem of unknown attacks
 970 2013-11-16 15:24:42 <tholenst> uhm, I have a PhD in cryptography...
 971 2013-11-16 15:24:44 <edcba> 0day bitcoin attack :)
 972 2013-11-16 15:25:20 <gmaxwell> I'm not talking about cryptography though. Just the business analysis of this stuff is easy to miscompute.
 973 2013-11-16 15:26:08 <tholenst> well, I do agree with you that one has to be careful, but if I could guarantee a merchant that only a percent of your incoming payments are double spends he'd be happy
 974 2013-11-16 15:27:04 <gmaxwell> tholenst: except you can't for many merchant classes. Double spends are not a random error. :) They're usually 0% and then some wiseguy realizes its profitable to do them and they're 99% until you're broke.
 975 2013-11-16 15:27:45 <gmaxwell> (and we've seen this play out in practice too)
 976 2013-11-16 15:28:30 <tholenst> exactly, though with my solution at least i might be able to say something like: "the double spender pays more on average than you lose" -- not always good enough, but sometimes it might be
 977 2013-11-16 15:28:34 <gmaxwell> reasons it's important to be able to prevent them, ... to safe people from having to make those tough decisions which sometimes don't pan out.
 978 2013-11-16 15:28:42 <gmaxwell> We agree.
 979 2013-11-16 15:29:02 <tholenst> agreed :)
 980 2013-11-16 15:30:20 <edcba> remind me on some article about rounding errors attacks
 981 2013-11-16 15:30:35 _ingsoc has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 982 2013-11-16 15:30:53 <tholenst> so if i want to learn the bitcoin source, and improve the program, what would a good goal be?
 983 2013-11-16 15:31:17 <edcba> write a bitcoin network simulation
 984 2013-11-16 15:31:44 <tholenst> for testing?
 985 2013-11-16 15:31:48 <edcba> yeah ?
 986 2013-11-16 15:32:04 _ingsoc has joined
 987 2013-11-16 15:32:34 <gmaxwell> tholenst: my suggestion would be to start playing with testnet, go make some really screwy transactions, figure out why they aren't working the way you think (will require a bunch of source reading). Start following commits and doing some QA on them, e.g. trying to break things people post.
 988 2013-11-16 15:32:56 reneg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 990 2013-11-16 15:33:23 <tholenst> sounds more feasible than writing a network simulation :) I'll try gmaxwell's plan
 991 2013-11-16 15:33:39 <tholenst> ty!
 992 2013-11-16 15:33:43 <gmaxwell> you can run a private testnet (regtest mode) and adding features to script.
 993 2013-11-16 15:33:49 <gmaxwell> Good luck, and please feel free to ask questions.
 994 2013-11-16 15:33:54 <tholenst> sure, ty
 995 2013-11-16 15:33:57 <gmaxwell> More people diving in is a fantastic thing.
 996 2013-11-16 15:35:34 <edcba> (i'd prefer more people *using* it)
 997 2013-11-16 15:35:44 btcboy has joined
 998 2013-11-16 15:35:57 <gmaxwell> ;;ticker --high
 999 2013-11-16 15:35:57 <gribble> 477.0
1000 2013-11-16 15:36:21 <gmaxwell> Personally I'm not in any rush... changing how the world works takes time. :)
1001 2013-11-16 15:37:38 btcboy has left ()
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1003 2013-11-16 15:40:46 <danneu> tholenst: what's been getting me up to speed is to implement bits of the protocol naively (i.e. without reading the source but from reading what it's supposed to be doing), get it working, and then look at the bitcoin source for it.
1004 2013-11-16 15:41:30 yubrew has joined
1005 2013-11-16 15:41:59 <tholenst> danneu: ty; i'll keep that in mind and see if it's applicable for me
1006 2013-11-16 15:42:24 <gmaxwell> I'm not a great fan of suggesting reimplementation. I think we lose a lot of people on that. It's a very simple protocol overall, but the details take forever to get exactly right. I think people get hung up on that and don't go on to try the fancier stuff on top of it that is missing in the ecosystem.
1007 2013-11-16 15:43:06 <tholenst> I think one should do it the same way i read papers: you properly think what needs to be done, then you go and check if they did the same thing you did -- if not, you figure out what you missed
1008 2013-11-16 15:44:21 <gmaxwell> tholenst: consensus system, there are a bunch of details that are basically irrelevant random decisions, but must be matched exactly (including some which are bugs). :P
1009 2013-11-16 15:44:29 <gmaxwell> not the most rewarding stuff.
1010 2013-11-16 15:44:52 <tholenst> oh i see
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1013 2013-11-16 15:45:45 <danneu> gmaxwell: i mean a toy/pseudo-implementation to wrap your head around it conceptually. not the whole protocol, but scratching out what a block and its transactions might look like as the simplest datastructure you can come up with
1014 2013-11-16 15:45:58 <gmaxwell> There are also some unfortunate implementation details that leak into the protocol... e.g. byte order inconsistencies.  Harmless, but frustrating when you're trying to implement.
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1016 2013-11-16 15:46:25 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1017 2013-11-16 15:46:33 <gmaxwell> danneu: yea, there is some level of that thats easy enough, it's mostly when you try to do validation that you go down the rabbit hole of little niggling details that take a ton of work to get right.
1018 2013-11-16 15:47:25 <edcba> hopefully the data is there
1019 2013-11-16 15:48:01 <edcba> btw how devs are doing regression testing on btc client ?
1020 2013-11-16 15:48:08 <edcba> recalculating all accounts ?
1021 2013-11-16 15:48:29 <sipa> interestingly, many weirdnesses in the consensus rules were _discovered_, in particular by someone trying to implement it in a very different programming paradigm
1022 2013-11-16 15:48:33 <edcba> damn tholenst infected my vocabulary
1023 2013-11-16 15:48:50 <BTC555> whats going on with the mined blocks, they are all coming in group 2 or 2 at a time, blocks  43 44 45 46 are all within 7 minutes,  blocks 47 48 49 within 6 minutes, then i had to wait 40 minutes and 50 and 51 are 1 minute apart
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1025 2013-11-16 15:49:01 <sipa> BTC555: variance is a bitch
1026 2013-11-16 15:49:11 <edcba> randomness at work
1027 2013-11-16 15:49:26 <sipa> and by discovered, i mean they were implementation details that leaked into the protocol, while most developers even being unaware of it
1028 2013-11-16 15:49:47 Perlboy has quit (Excess Flood)
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1030 2013-11-16 15:50:02 <BTC555> ok, seems a bit too much. blocks are coming from different pool  i thought there might be a combination of selfish mining plus collusion by 3 pools
1031 2013-11-16 15:50:14 <BTC555> to gain advantage over the small ones
1032 2013-11-16 15:50:19 <edcba> haha
1033 2013-11-16 15:50:36 <edcba> then put a client in those pools
1034 2013-11-16 15:50:46 <edcba> and verify that theory
1035 2013-11-16 15:51:07 <BTC555> if the big 3 or 4 colluded this would work though right?
1036 2013-11-16 15:51:39 <sipa> and everyone would know
1037 2013-11-16 15:51:49 <edcba> if they distributed special clients maybe
1038 2013-11-16 15:51:49 <sipa> as we'd see massive chain reorganization
1039 2013-11-16 15:51:53 <sipa> not variance
1040 2013-11-16 15:52:01 <edcba> yeah
1041 2013-11-16 15:52:16 <danneu> sipa: for example: http://r6.ca/blog/20111119T211504Z.html
1042 2013-11-16 15:52:20 <BTC555> how many minutes till you are 3 standard deviations over the expect mined block time?
1043 2013-11-16 15:52:30 <danneu> (link found in bitcoinj source, thankfully)
1044 2013-11-16 15:52:37 <sipa> danneu: that's exactly whom i was talking about :p
1045 2013-11-16 15:52:48 <sipa> danneu: though it's not the only thing he discovered
1046 2013-11-16 15:52:50 nomailing has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1047 2013-11-16 15:52:51 <danneu> right
1048 2013-11-16 15:53:22 <sipa> here is what led to BIP30: http://r6.ca/blog/20120206T005236Z.html
1049 2013-11-16 15:54:26 <sipa> 4.8k well-reachable nodes!
1050 2013-11-16 15:55:06 <gmaxwell> edcba: wrt your question (die "accounts"!!) ... validating the existing chain is not sufficient. The things the node _rejects_ are at least as important as what it accepts.
1051 2013-11-16 15:55:15 <chmod755> sipa, if you're scanning right now, i'm probably one of them
1052 2013-11-16 15:55:26 <sipa> chmod755: i always am
1053 2013-11-16 15:55:30 Valesianus has left ()
1054 2013-11-16 15:55:31 <chmod755> lol
1055 2013-11-16 15:55:37 <sipa> i'm running one of the dns seeds
1056 2013-11-16 15:55:39 Valesianus has joined
1057 2013-11-16 15:55:44 <gmaxwell> edcba: we have a testing harness "block tester" which is run by the pull tester, which basically simulates the network.
1058 2013-11-16 15:55:47 <chmod755> oh right
1059 2013-11-16 15:55:59 <gmaxwell> edcba: and it feeds a node a whole bunch of reorgnizations and invalid blocks as well as valid ones
1060 2013-11-16 15:56:08 <gmaxwell> edcba: to also test that it rejects what it must reject.
1061 2013-11-16 15:56:39 <sipa> otherwise you could write a node that accepted every block, and behold... it validates the existing chain perfectly1
1062 2013-11-16 15:56:53 <sipa> if the database management is right, it would also end up with the exact same chain state
1063 2013-11-16 15:57:27 <gmaxwell> edcba: the testing is, however, still incomplete. (so thats another way to begin contributing: find corner accept / reject cases and add them to the tests)
1064 2013-11-16 15:58:43 <gmaxwell> edcba: or you could have bug with reorgs.. say you never removed txouts that were deleted during a reorg.. if you just play a chain you'll agree, but in the real world a reorg happens and you're suddenly allowing spends of non-existant coins!
1065 2013-11-16 15:59:05 <gmaxwell> but then a peer which didn't see the reorg won't accept your view of the state.
1066 2013-11-16 15:59:37 <edcba> ok
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1070 2013-11-16 16:04:36 <Valesianus> How would one go about starting a money exchange server?
1071 2013-11-16 16:05:09 <Valesianus> that would include bitcoin and litecoin
1072 2013-11-16 16:05:21 <danneu> what now?
1073 2013-11-16 16:06:35 <danneu> gmaxwell: it's easy to say that "people get hung-up on reimplementation", but reimplementers are among the few that would even arrive at the wherewithal to implement something fancy
1074 2013-11-16 16:07:26 <sipa> i just started working on the reference client, and i think that was the best way to learn the details
1075 2013-11-16 16:07:30 <sipa> though it took a long time
1076 2013-11-16 16:08:14 <gmaxwell> danneu: you don't need to know the p2p procol's every byte order quark and ever rule corner case to build protocols on top of bitcoin.
1077 2013-11-16 16:09:21 <gmaxwell> danneu: observably reimplementors don't do this. Most of them appear to get achieve buggy/incomplete but working implementation and fade into the mists, at least so far.
1078 2013-11-16 16:10:02 <edcba> reimplementing client means you have to look at reference client anyway
1079 2013-11-16 16:10:17 <danneu> sure, but i doubt reimplementers have the unary goal of learning satoshi-bitcoin.
1080 2013-11-16 16:10:28 macboz has joined
1081 2013-11-16 16:10:30 ralphtheninja has joined
1082 2013-11-16 16:10:34 <sipa> many seem to have the goal of replacing it
1083 2013-11-16 16:11:00 <danneu> really, though? that idea has recently become vogue
1084 2013-11-16 16:11:07 <edcba> recently ?
1085 2013-11-16 16:11:19 <danneu> particularly recently
1086 2013-11-16 16:11:30 <sipa> what does 'vogue' mean?
1087 2013-11-16 16:11:56 <gmaxwell> Mike is the only reimplementer I can think of who's even proposed a nontrivial transaction protocol, much less implemented one or even tried them out.  I believe that a super-majority of the non-standard scripts in the blockchain are peter todd, and a substantial chunk of the ones that aren't him are me.
1088 2013-11-16 16:12:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: current fad.
1089 2013-11-16 16:15:30 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1090 2013-11-16 16:17:32 Silverion has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1091 2013-11-16 16:22:09 <danneu> it's easy to take the bitcoin-wiki for granted.
1092 2013-11-16 16:22:17 <danneu> what a godsend
1093 2013-11-16 16:23:02 <gmaxwell> take care, it has errors. :P
1094 2013-11-16 16:26:13 <danneu> heh, yeah, but getting a higher level picture of at least what the implementation supposedly does has been helpful before jumping in
1095 2013-11-16 16:26:36 <Diablo-D3> ;;ticker
1096 2013-11-16 16:26:36 <gribble> MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 462.23655, Best ask: 462.3499, Bid-ask spread: 0.11335, Last trade: 462.3499, 24 hour volume: 29415.65264007, 24 hour low: 413.05, 24 hour high: 477.0, 24 hour vwap: 444.11593
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1105 2013-11-16 16:44:03 <Ryan52> Is there any way to get more work from a pool before completing work that was already given? I am trying to implement something which acts between multiple clients and the pool, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around how I can get new, different work for each client, without yet providing an answer to the original work first.
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1107 2013-11-16 16:44:33 <sipa> what protocol?
1108 2013-11-16 16:44:45 <Ryan52> getwork, I can change that if really necessary, though.
1109 2013-11-16 16:44:53 * Ryan52 would rather stick with getwork if possible
1110 2013-11-16 16:45:13 <sipa> i'd suggest you forget getwork ever existed, and your problem will go away
1111 2013-11-16 16:45:25 Guest6503 has left ()
1112 2013-11-16 16:45:48 <sipa> (with GBT you can construct your own work)
1113 2013-11-16 16:45:55 <edcba> gbt ?
1114 2013-11-16 16:45:57 maaku has joined
1115 2013-11-16 16:46:04 <sipa> getblocktemplate, getwork's successor
1116 2013-11-16 16:47:03 <Ryan52> sipa: sorry this is a dumb question, but how is work submitted then?
1117 2013-11-16 16:47:12 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
1118 2013-11-16 16:47:29 <edcba> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate ?
1119 2013-11-16 16:47:31 <sipa> by submitting it?
1120 2013-11-16 16:47:45 <sipa> Ryan52: the resulting work in a valid block
1121 2013-11-16 16:47:55 <sipa> *is
1122 2013-11-16 16:47:59 <edcba> pool can check by itself
1123 2013-11-16 16:48:11 <Ryan52> I understand how blocks work at least, but to rephrase my question, is it submitted through a separate API call than getblocktemplate?
1124 2013-11-16 16:48:18 <sipa> yes, submitblock
1125 2013-11-16 16:49:11 <Ryan52> sipa: ahah! perfect, thanks
1126 2013-11-16 16:49:19 <Ryan52> edcba: heh, somehow the "submitting shares" part of that page was right in front of my face and I still missed it, thank you
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1146 2013-11-16 17:29:48 <eian> Are there any protocol nerds in here?
1147 2013-11-16 17:30:07 <gmaxwell> Ask your question, don't ask to ask. :)
1148 2013-11-16 17:30:14 <eian> hey greg
1149 2013-11-16 17:30:17 <eian> not sure if you remember me
1150 2013-11-16 17:30:25 <eian> I just submitted a paper to financial crypto
1151 2013-11-16 17:30:33 <eian> was wondering if you could take a look
1152 2013-11-16 17:30:34 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1153 2013-11-16 17:31:05 <gmaxwell> I'm past due for sleep by many hours, though I'm always interested in papers.
1154 2013-11-16 17:31:07 andytoshi has joined
1155 2013-11-16 17:31:12 <eian> :P
1156 2013-11-16 17:31:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: i was wondered when you slept...
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1160 2013-11-16 17:33:27 <gmaxwell> eian: (indeed I do remember you) Ah, so it's you thats been working with amiller?
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1162 2013-11-16 17:34:33 <eian> gmaxwell: although I've spoke with Andrew before, I haven't worked with him
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1168 2013-11-16 17:37:25 <gmaxwell> eian: While I read your draft, you might enjoy reading some of the state of the art in industry at gumming up some kinda of transaction inference: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.0
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1172 2013-11-16 17:39:28 <eian> gmaxwell: I will take a look
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1174 2013-11-16 17:41:11 <gmaxwell> (I recall from before that you know thats possible, but its escaping the bounds of being a purely fringe one off thing now)
1175 2013-11-16 17:42:34 <eian> Yeah, I've seen the more recent papers
1176 2013-11-16 17:42:42 <eian> I haven't kept up with the forums
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1187 2013-11-16 18:01:28 <andytoshi> hey guys, is there a list of "janitor" type stuff for the bitcoin project
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1201 2013-11-16 18:14:38 <amiller> hah, no i haven't worked with eian at all!
1202 2013-11-16 18:15:04 <eian> hey
1203 2013-11-16 18:15:14 <amiller> but a small group of people i worked submitted a bitcoin paper to fc as well :)
1204 2013-11-16 18:15:27 <amiller> i also submitted one to oakland just yesterday!
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1206 2013-11-16 18:15:35 <amiller> i think this will be a pretty prolific year for bitcoin research tbh.
1207 2013-11-16 18:15:41 <eian> haha
1208 2013-11-16 18:17:47 <sipa> has there been any year which cannot be considered very prolific for bitcoin research, compared to the one before?
1209 2013-11-16 18:17:55 <copumpkin> how does the network agree on new difficulties?
1210 2013-11-16 18:17:59 <chmod755> sipa, nope
1211 2013-11-16 18:18:07 <copumpkin> is it timestamp-based?
1212 2013-11-16 18:18:10 <sipa> copumpkin: every node computes it individually
1213 2013-11-16 18:18:15 <sipa> yes, based on block's timestamps
1214 2013-11-16 18:18:18 <copumpkin> but that's deterministic based on timestamps in the block
1215 2013-11-16 18:18:19 <copumpkin> okay
1216 2013-11-16 18:18:25 <sipa> indeed
1217 2013-11-16 18:18:41 <copumpkin> and those are guaranteed to be roughly accurate because we'd reject blocks that disagree too much with our local clocks?
1218 2013-11-16 18:18:48 <sipa> correct
1219 2013-11-16 18:18:52 <copumpkin> okay, that's what I thought, thanks
1220 2013-11-16 18:19:14 <sipa> new blocks are required to have a timestamp after the median of the past 11, and not more than (iirc) 2 hours in the future
1221 2013-11-16 18:20:36 <edcba> so 12 first blocks are satoshi's ? :)
1222 2013-11-16 18:22:06 <sipa> probably, but that has nothing to do with it
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1237 2013-11-16 18:42:06 <saizai> Hi all. Could I please get a check of https://docs.google.com/document/d/19I1DRh49TCf4A0fMgqL7MLci3G6aD3Q6kB4-9TgaqB0/ (parts 5-7 mainly) for technical precision? (Again, mind that I'm trying to explain this to FEC commissioners who are really really not technical, so I need to do so in terms they'll understand.)
1238 2013-11-16 18:44:17 <eian> What happens if you get it wrong?
1239 2013-11-16 18:44:55 <chmod755> what's with people 'leaking' bitcoin foundation posts? lol
1240 2013-11-16 18:44:57 <eian> I don't really have the time - but I can make time if you tell me why this document is important
1241 2013-11-16 18:48:53 cyphase has joined
1242 2013-11-16 18:56:53 <saizai> eian: this is for the FEC's advisory opinion request about Bitcoins
1243 2013-11-16 18:57:00 <saizai> https://makeyourlaws.org/fec/bitcoin for links
1244 2013-11-16 18:57:03 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1245 2013-11-16 18:57:18 <saizai> it's responding to the stuff raised in the meeting (see 'meeting audio' link there)
1246 2013-11-16 18:57:34 <eian> saizai , thanks
1247 2013-11-16 18:57:41 <saizai> see also our initial comment there, and the initial request and draft AOs, for more context
1248 2013-11-16 18:58:00 <saizai> basically, this is to help educate the FEC commissioners (and legal staff) and try to make sure that the rule they pass is sane
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1251 2013-11-16 18:58:33 <saizai> it'll also be another significant aspect of Bitcoin's regulatory framework, and picked up by news all over, so I think it's important to get it right
1252 2013-11-16 18:59:05 <edcba> yeah so they can accept btc bribes anonymously with certainty !
1253 2013-11-16 18:59:42 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1254 2013-11-16 19:01:38 <edcba> lol i didn't read the paper but it talks about pac :)
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1258 2013-11-16 19:06:35 <saizai> edcba: that's part of why we responded
1259 2013-11-16 19:06:55 <saizai> we think that CAF's proposal, and the draft AOs, have giant loopholes that could be exploited too easily
1260 2013-11-16 19:07:12 <saizai> but also that they should allow bitcoins to be used for normal transactions etc
1261 2013-11-16 19:07:21 <saizai> so trying to propose a saner balance of the regulatory rules
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1264 2013-11-16 19:10:33 <edcba> i didn't read mr backer's "paper", where is that ?
1265 2013-11-16 19:10:34 bitspill has joined
1266 2013-11-16 19:10:50 <edcba> i was wondering about the serial number part
1267 2013-11-16 19:10:59 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
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1269 2013-11-16 19:12:23 <edcba> because of course they don't have sn but they are still highly traceable
1270 2013-11-16 19:13:20 <sipa> saizai: i still don't understand - it's simply bad english in my understand
1271 2013-11-16 19:13:25 <sipa> saizai: a block doesn't do anything
1272 2013-11-16 19:13:30 <edcba> but yes it acts more like water when dealing about divisibility
1273 2013-11-16 19:13:34 <edcba> you can taint...
1274 2013-11-16 19:13:52 <sipa> saizai: anyway, i won't comment further; i've made my remarks :)
1275 2013-11-16 19:14:11 tholenst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1276 2013-11-16 19:14:55 <sipa> maybe "A block proves that the network considers a transaction part of history - and more blocks on top reenforce that notion."
1277 2013-11-16 19:15:05 nomailing has joined
1278 2013-11-16 19:15:12 <sipa> "A block verifies transactions" just sounds wrong to me. I'll stop now.
1279 2013-11-16 19:15:22 <saizai> edcba: read the 'request' link in above link
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1281 2013-11-16 19:15:36 <saizai> the stuff that this refers to though is not in the request, it's in the meeting audio
1282 2013-11-16 19:15:59 <saizai> I already addressed his request in our initial comments, https://makeyourlaws.org/files/MYL%20PAC%20&%20MYL%20C4%20comment%20on%20AO%202013-15%20Conservative%20Action%20Fund.pdf
1283 2013-11-16 19:16:14 <edcba> audio :(
1284 2013-11-16 19:16:24 <saizai> yeah I know
1285 2013-11-16 19:16:35 <saizai> did I mention they're not exactly super technical? :-P
1286 2013-11-16 19:16:41 sodoku has joined
1287 2013-11-16 19:16:43 <saizai> it takes 'em a couple months even to approve the meeting minutes
1288 2013-11-16 19:16:48 thelorax123 has joined
1289 2013-11-16 19:16:55 <saizai> an I don't think they even do transcripts
1290 2013-11-16 19:17:14 <saizai> sipa: hm, your last might work
1291 2013-11-16 19:17:24 * saizai thinks how to tweak for non-technical understanding
1292 2013-11-16 19:17:48 <sipa> yeah, i understand that i'm coming froma very technical perspective, and that may not be the best way to explain things
1293 2013-11-16 19:17:51 <edcba> explain each concept with drawing ,
1294 2013-11-16 19:17:53 <edcba> ?
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1296 2013-11-16 19:18:17 <saizai> edcba: I have a bunch of other shit to do in the next few days
1297 2013-11-16 19:18:23 <saizai> and this has to get submitted asap
1298 2013-11-16 19:18:29 <edcba> :/
1299 2013-11-16 19:18:30 <saizai> 'cause they're meeting again on the 21st
1300 2013-11-16 19:18:42 <saizai> and will be drafting the new AO in the meantime
1301 2013-11-16 19:18:51 <saizai> so it has to get in now, so that it affects the new draft
1302 2013-11-16 19:18:53 bitspill has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1303 2013-11-16 19:19:18 tmsk has joined
1304 2013-11-16 19:19:20 <saizai> (you are of course welcome to submit your own comments if you want - instructions again are @ https://makeyourlaws.org/fec/bitcoin)
1305 2013-11-16 19:20:29 <edcba> i doubt they care about non-us citizens :)
1306 2013-11-16 19:21:06 <edcba> oh comments for you ok
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1309 2013-11-16 19:21:50 <saizai> edcba: you don't have to be a citizen to comment
1310 2013-11-16 19:21:57 <saizai> nor even mention whether you are or aren't
1311 2013-11-16 19:22:08 <saizai> anyone interested is allowed to comment and they have to consider all comments
1312 2013-11-16 19:22:23 <sipa> email to bitcoin devs: "I want to sell bitcoin to be main bussiness. How I can do?"
1313 2013-11-16 19:22:30 <saizai> though FWIW they consider comments more … seriously if they're written up prettily like mine ;)
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1315 2013-11-16 19:22:36 <saizai> vs just an email
1316 2013-11-16 19:22:52 <saizai> sipa: edited the block bit again; better?
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1318 2013-11-16 19:24:24 <sipa> how about using 'authenticating' or 'accepting' or 'notarizing' or 'committing to', instead of 'verifying' ?
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1320 2013-11-16 19:25:12 * sipa afk
1321 2013-11-16 19:27:13 <saizai> authenticating is good
1322 2013-11-16 19:27:35 <saizai> works for me, but wondering why it's more technically accurate; seems like a distinction without a difference
1323 2013-11-16 19:27:42 <saizai> also adding a new footnote to page 1
1324 2013-11-16 19:28:31 <edcba> because client verifies the blocks, the blocks are logical container of transactions, etc
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1326 2013-11-16 19:28:45 <sipa> yes, blocks do not perform an action, so they cannot verify
1327 2013-11-16 19:28:52 <sipa> but being in a block means a miner committed to it
1328 2013-11-16 19:29:26 <sipa> being in a block means the network accepts those transactions (well, at least miners, and those that relayed the block)
1329 2013-11-16 19:29:43 <sipa> it still doesn't mean they're valid (and it's certainly not the block itself that verifies)
1330 2013-11-16 19:29:43 <saizai> oh, you're making that distinction
1331 2013-11-16 19:29:44 <saizai> I see
1332 2013-11-16 19:29:51 <saizai> fair enough
1333 2013-11-16 19:30:01 <saizai> s/verify/authenticate/ done.
1334 2013-11-16 19:30:24 hsmiths has joined
1335 2013-11-16 19:30:25 zer0def has joined
1336 2013-11-16 19:30:43 <saizai> (context for new joiners: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19I1DRh49TCf4A0fMgqL7MLci3G6aD3Q6kB4-9TgaqB0/edit / https://makeyourlaws.org/fec/bitcoin )
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1339 2013-11-16 19:33:21 <saizai> sipa: you happy w/ the revision on page 6?
1340 2013-11-16 19:33:36 <saizai> & the new description of blocks on page 5
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1342 2013-11-16 19:36:57 <sipa> saizai: what do you mean by transactions are not atomic?
1343 2013-11-16 19:37:29 <saizai> I said that *bitcoins* are not atomic
1344 2013-11-16 19:37:36 <saizai> they were talking about them as if they were dollar bills
1345 2013-11-16 19:37:45 <sipa> oh
1346 2013-11-16 19:37:46 <saizai> with like one bitcoin having a 'serial number' that goes throughout its history
1347 2013-11-16 19:37:52 <saizai> that's not a thing
1348 2013-11-16 19:37:57 <sipa> gotcha
1349 2013-11-16 19:42:00 <saizai> so, any more edits? :)
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1354 2013-11-16 19:54:09 <Vinnie_win> "Bitcoin is not money" ?
1355 2013-11-16 19:54:43 <Vinnie_win> (Page 2/7 section 2)
1356 2013-11-16 19:54:55 <saizai> Vinnie_win: see our initial comments section 1 part 1
1357 2013-11-16 19:55:02 Eiii has joined
1358 2013-11-16 19:55:07 <saizai> legally speaking, it's not.
1359 2013-11-16 19:55:15 <Vinnie_win> Okay
1360 2013-11-16 19:55:17 <saizai> it's a commodity that is used as a medium of exchange
1361 2013-11-16 19:55:36 <Vinnie_win> Right, this is a document to address a specific use case and not a philosophical position paper
1362 2013-11-16 19:56:01 <saizai> "medium of exchange" is what you informally mean by "money", but "money" is a legal definition that significantly affects how it's regulated under campaign finance law ;)
1363 2013-11-16 19:58:16 <gmaxwell> +1000 for "bitcoin is not money"
1364 2013-11-16 19:58:52 <saizai> gmaxwell: if you want some amusement, read the original request and then read my initial comments part 1
1365 2013-11-16 19:59:09 <saizai> it's an evisceration of his arguments that bitcoin is money.
1366 2013-11-16 19:59:39 <saizai> a very politely but very unsubtly worded one.
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1369 2013-11-16 19:59:52 <saizai> (my favorite kind)
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1371 2013-11-16 20:05:27 <Vinnie_win> Well thats about all I have to contribute, except one more tip which is whenever I write something of significance I toss it through Scribendi.com for a couple of dollars you can rent an editor to get a response within 24 hours.
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1373 2013-11-16 20:06:04 <saizai> will look at that for later but not now ;)
1374 2013-11-16 20:11:41 TD has joined
1375 2013-11-16 20:11:47 <TD> good evening
1376 2013-11-16 20:12:18 yubrew has joined
1377 2013-11-16 20:15:02 <saizai> howdy
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1385 2013-11-16 20:23:05 <saizai> anyway, thanks for the review all
1386 2013-11-16 20:23:38 <saizai> sipa, I hope you understand where I'm coming from re wanting to be technically precise but also having to explain it to non-techies
1387 2013-11-16 20:23:49 <sipa> sure
1388 2013-11-16 20:24:33 <saizai> hopefully the result is an FEC decision that doesn't open a giant loophole but does make for a reasonable way to use bitcoin
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1398 2013-11-16 20:42:39 <Vinnie_win> Yeah I can't wait to send my bitcoins to politicians so they can end up in the hands of big media companies.
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1403 2013-11-16 20:52:18 <melvster> curious when running getrawtransaction, I can get information for every transaction in the merkle tree EXCEPT tx[0] ... is that normal?
1404 2013-11-16 20:54:54 <sipa> what is tx[0]?
1405 2013-11-16 20:55:10 <sipa> if you're referring to the genesis block's coinbase, yes that is normal
1406 2013-11-16 20:55:34 <melvster> sipa: the 0 entry in the getblock entry when calling bitcoind rpc ...
1407 2013-11-16 20:55:48 <melvster> im looking at  [height] => 268254
1408 2013-11-16 20:55:58 <melvster>  [tx] => Array
1409 2013-11-16 20:55:58 <melvster>         (
1410 2013-11-16 20:55:58 <melvster>             [0] => a651270904071b7cc452f071fa0f308e303d7aa416ab7d60505c5f186459535c
1411 2013-11-16 20:55:58 <melvster>             [1] => febf47863f7433e2e8d8887ad46ec4d8c76ec3c9527dc4d4beeabda4c0604f90
1412 2013-11-16 20:56:00 <melvster>             [2] => a59697e880b1186bd92ce47d8ca550abd5c545b2d78905e4324848a0933c3831
1413 2013-11-16 20:56:09 <melvster> i can run getrawtransaction for 1, 2, ...
1414 2013-11-16 20:56:12 <melvster> but not for 0
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1417 2013-11-16 20:57:31 <sipa> do you have txindex enabled?
1418 2013-11-16 20:57:44 <melvster> sipa: i dont think so, unless it's the default?
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1420 2013-11-16 20:57:51 <sipa> no, it's not
1421 2013-11-16 20:58:02 <sipa> by default you cannot only look up unspent transactions
1422 2013-11-16 20:58:03 * melvster reading up ... thanks
1423 2013-11-16 20:58:08 <sipa> *can only
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1425 2013-11-16 20:58:52 <melvster> sipa: thanks ... looking at your answer here : http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9147/getrawtransaction-error-code-5
1426 2013-11-16 20:58:57 <saizai> Vinnie_win: they = the bitcoins or the politicians?
1427 2013-11-16 20:59:09 <saizai> 'cause y'know the politicians already are in the hands of the media corps
1428 2013-11-16 20:59:12 <saizai> or vice versa
1429 2013-11-16 20:59:15 <saizai> (cf. Bloomberg)
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1432 2013-11-16 21:01:23 <melvster> sipa: so if I'm writing a block and transaction explorer, the best way to do it would be to run bitcoind with the -txindex flag, in order to get the widest range of results?
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1434 2013-11-16 21:02:56 <sipa> melvster: yes
1435 2013-11-16 21:03:11 <melvster> brilliant thanks
1436 2013-11-16 21:03:12 <sipa> put it in your bitcoin.conf (txindex=1)
1437 2013-11-16 21:03:20 <sipa> you'll need to reindex though
1438 2013-11-16 21:03:44 <melvster> will do
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1444 2013-11-16 21:06:43 <melvster> ill do one for the main net and one for testnet
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1446 2013-11-16 21:08:13 <melvster> thing is that block explorer exports both human readable pages and JSON ... if the html were marked up carefully with rel tags, you could actually easily use it as an API to extract the JSON, this is what I want to do in my explorer so that it can be used as a web service too
1447 2013-11-16 21:10:11 <melvster> it will also help search engines index the data
1448 2013-11-16 21:10:21 AusBitBank has joined
1449 2013-11-16 21:10:48 <melvster> most of the major search engines parse rel tags these days
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1479 2013-11-16 21:24:19 <tgs3> did the land of the free decided yet on legality of btc?
1480 2013-11-16 21:24:53 owowo has joined
1481 2013-11-16 21:26:13 <melvster> sipa: do you know why getrawtransaction works more often than gettransaction in bitcoind rpc?
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1484 2013-11-16 21:35:02 <sipa> melvster: gettransaction is a wallet call, it returns payments in the wallet
1485 2013-11-16 21:35:07 <sipa> ledger entries
1486 2013-11-16 21:35:31 <sipa> getrawtransaction is a blockchain RPC, it fetches bitcoin transactions
1487 2013-11-16 21:36:55 <melvster> sipa: got it thanks, is there any way of getting a more verbose version of a transaction that raw, I could decode it I suppose, I noticed verbose=0 but not sure what that does ...
1488 2013-11-16 21:37:05 <melvster> s/that/than
1489 2013-11-16 21:37:09 Bkil has joined
1490 2013-11-16 21:37:24 <melvster> i can look at the code i guess ...
1491 2013-11-16 21:37:54 <firepacket> is it theoretically possible to have a private key for which addresses can be generated but not spent from?
1492 2013-11-16 21:38:14 <firepacket> been trying to google but cant find anything
1493 2013-11-16 21:40:20 <firepacket> s/private key/wallet
1494 2013-11-16 21:41:15 <melvster> firepacket: do you mean that you want the coins to become unspendable forever?
1495 2013-11-16 21:41:42 <firepacket> no, i want them spendable by someone with the full wallet
1496 2013-11-16 21:41:57 <groglogi_> firepacket: pretty sure something like that is in the pipe
1497 2013-11-16 21:42:13 groglogi_ is now known as groglogic
1498 2013-11-16 21:42:14 <firepacket> awesome
1499 2013-11-16 21:42:22 <firepacket> so theres nothing out now though right?
1500 2013-11-16 21:44:21 <groglogic> firepacket: this is your friend: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032
1501 2013-11-16 21:44:48 <firepacket> kk reading
1502 2013-11-16 21:44:52 <firepacket> thx
1503 2013-11-16 21:45:06 <groglogic> firepacket: your welcome
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1506 2013-11-16 21:47:16 <sipa> melvster: getrawtransaction <txid> 1
1507 2013-11-16 21:47:21 <sipa> that decodes them
1508 2013-11-16 21:47:38 <melvster> sipa: great!
1509 2013-11-16 21:47:51 <melvster> dang, you guys think of everything!
1510 2013-11-16 21:47:53 <sipa> can you please look at the documentation first?
1511 2013-11-16 21:48:09 <sipa> i think all i've told you so far is in the help command
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1513 2013-11-16 21:49:28 <melvster> sipa: sure, thanks for your patience ... ive been looking thru the docs, ill read more carefully
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1515 2013-11-16 21:50:26 <firepacket> groglogic: "Unsecure money receiver: M/i'/0" - yes this is it! is there any implementation i can look at?
1516 2013-11-16 21:50:56 <firepacket> does armory do it?
1517 2013-11-16 21:51:19 <sipa> it will
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1519 2013-11-16 21:55:47 <firepacket> well, it sure doesn't look trivial to implement. i assume that's why I can't find anything more
1520 2013-11-16 21:59:07 <sipa> i think pretty much every wallet implememtation will implememt it
1521 2013-11-16 21:59:13 <sipa> there are some that already have
1522 2013-11-16 21:59:20 reneg has joined
1523 2013-11-16 21:59:48 <firepacket> which ones?
1524 2013-11-16 22:00:00 <firepacket> electrum?
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1528 2013-11-16 22:03:47 <firepacket> it looks like stick made something but it doesnt do the unsecured money transmission part
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1532 2013-11-16 22:09:13 <groglogic> firepacket: not sure, ask in #electrum. though my rule with FOSS is "now or never" because the future is an unreachable country and plans change, people change, etc.
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1534 2013-11-16 22:09:58 <firepacket> what do you mean?
1535 2013-11-16 22:10:07 <firepacket> the code could become depreciated or something?
1536 2013-11-16 22:13:13 <firepacket> actually this still has an issue "The webserver only needs to know the public extended key of the external chain of a single account."
1537 2013-11-16 22:13:23 <firepacket> the server can't generate the key, it has to be told it?
1538 2013-11-16 22:14:01 lordbunson has joined
1539 2013-11-16 22:14:45 <groglogic> firepacket: no I meant that in addition to all the wonderful things the Internet enables, and collboration, forks, FOSS, new ideas, etc it also means we're now awash in a sea of plans and promises and big-print-vs-fine-print (on paper we have feature X, in reality it's broken: it will ship in Dec! no it didn't), etc. so, i'd just see what has that feature now, or at worst, help build it, but don't *count* on some
1540 2013-11-16 22:14:45 <groglogic> body else adding it ever or in the form you like
1541 2013-11-16 22:16:19 <firepacket> oh i sure don't. but I was hoping that there would be some kind of implementation I could dissect, I can't find a thing. and it seems like that would be the killer feature
1542 2013-11-16 22:16:26 <firepacket> other people handle your money without your trusting them
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1545 2013-11-16 22:19:37 <firepacket> still trying to wrap my head around the concept of these wallets i don't think i could b
1546 2013-11-16 22:19:41 <firepacket> build it*
1547 2013-11-16 22:21:25 <sipa> firepacket: of course it has to be told
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1549 2013-11-16 22:21:32 <sipa> how would it know what to look for?
1550 2013-11-16 22:21:53 <firepacket> yeah youre right
1551 2013-11-16 22:22:05 <sipa> but it needs to be told only once
1552 2013-11-16 22:22:24 <firepacket> but that gives it full access
1553 2013-11-16 22:22:26 <sipa> after that, it can generate the addresses the actual wallet generatea the keys gor
1554 2013-11-16 22:22:29 <sipa> no
1555 2013-11-16 22:22:37 <sipa> it only needs the public key
1556 2013-11-16 22:22:42 <sipa> which can't spend
1557 2013-11-16 22:22:49 dansmithbtc2 is now known as dansmith_away
1558 2013-11-16 22:22:49 <firepacket> can it generate *more* of those?
1559 2013-11-16 22:22:58 <firepacket> based off that?
1560 2013-11-16 22:23:16 <sipa> ...
1561 2013-11-16 22:23:31 <sipa> the public extended key generates public child keys
1562 2013-11-16 22:23:42 <sipa> the private extended key generates private child keys
1563 2013-11-16 22:23:49 <sipa> public keys can observe
1564 2013-11-16 22:23:53 <sipa> private keys can spend
1565 2013-11-16 22:24:03 <firepacket> ah
1566 2013-11-16 22:24:06 <firepacket> that is so amazingly cool
1567 2013-11-16 22:24:19 <firepacket> so it does do what i want lol
1568 2013-11-16 22:24:26 <sipa> yes
1569 2013-11-16 22:26:31 <firepacket> is there any version of bitcoind that uses bip32?
1570 2013-11-16 22:26:42 <firepacket> maybe something that hasnt been pulled yet?
1571 2013-11-16 22:27:25 <firepacket> i appreciate all this info btw
1572 2013-11-16 22:28:04 profreid has quit (Quit: profreid)
1573 2013-11-16 22:30:15 <sipa> bitcoind doesn't support hdw yet
1574 2013-11-16 22:30:20 Anduck has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1575 2013-11-16 22:30:30 <sipa> the key derivation scheme is implemented
1576 2013-11-16 22:30:39 <sipa> but it's not integrated in the wallet code
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1596 2013-11-16 23:04:13 * Luke-Jr thinks we should just use "recurring invoice id" whenever referring to BIP32's xpub stuff in an address-like context :p
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1603 2013-11-16 23:07:54 <helo> anything special about block 263302 that might get my 0.8.5 stuck? 19 peers, 8 outbound...
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1608 2013-11-16 23:09:43 <helo> early in my log i see some InvalidChainFound errors at that height
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1610 2013-11-16 23:14:05 <helo> is there something else i should be looking for?
1611 2013-11-16 23:14:21 <sipa> ;;blocks
1612 2013-11-16 23:14:22 <gribble> 270012
1613 2013-11-16 23:14:48 <sipa> helo: can you paste a page of debug.log before the first InvalidChainFound somewhere?
1614 2013-11-16 23:14:58 <helo> it was up to date for quite some time, and then i didn't boot that OS for a few weeks
1615 2013-11-16 23:15:04 <helo> and now it can't seem to get any further
1616 2013-11-16 23:15:08 <helo> sure
1617 2013-11-16 23:22:12 c0rw1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1618 2013-11-16 23:23:48 <helo> sipa: http://pastebin.ca/2476653
1619 2013-11-16 23:24:38 <helo> some names have been changed to protect the innocent
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1622 2013-11-16 23:26:19 <sipa> helo: too far; i need to see something like 6000 blocks earlier :)
1623 2013-11-16 23:26:44 <helo> hmmmm... let me see how far back the previous run goes
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1625 2013-11-16 23:26:57 <sipa> before the first InvalidChainFound
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1628 2013-11-16 23:29:02 <helo> i've started up enough times that there isn't one with the first blocking giving an InvalidChainFound
1629 2013-11-16 23:29:18 <helo> "with the first block *not giving"
1630 2013-11-16 23:29:24 <sipa> too bad
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1632 2013-11-16 23:31:28 <helo> what's a good path to getting synched back up?
1633 2013-11-16 23:31:39 <sipa> start with -reindex
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1637 2013-11-16 23:34:29 <helo> have a free tx fee ;?
1638 2013-11-16 23:34:38 <sipa> ?
1639 2013-11-16 23:35:46 <sipa> do you want a fee for a free transaction (that'd be silly...), or a transaction fee that's free (that sounds like a contradiction)...
1640 2013-11-16 23:38:11 <helo> i was going to zero-out my phone's balance by sending you 0.001... we'll see if it actually works or not heh
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1643 2013-11-16 23:40:54 <helo> i suspect not, so i'll give you a worthless high five intead o/
1644 2013-11-16 23:41:02 <sipa> \o
1645 2013-11-16 23:41:19 <helo> :)
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