1 2013-11-19 00:00:14 reneg_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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4 2013-11-19 00:04:54 <t7> man i need to find my pocket change wallet now
5 2013-11-19 00:04:59 zeddan81 has joined
6 2013-11-19 00:05:00 <t7> it might be worth something
7 2013-11-19 00:05:15 <t7> like 10 pounds
8 2013-11-19 00:05:50 <warren> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/new/ please vote up "Can you fix the LevelDB database corruption bug affecting Bitcoin-Qt on some platforms? 5+ BTC bounty."
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13 2013-11-19 00:10:41 <danneu> first and last time i ever visit a subreddit's /new.
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17 2013-11-19 00:12:55 <Luke-Jr> warren: direct link?
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20 2013-11-19 00:14:01 <warren> Luke-Jr: if you direct link there is a strong chance that votes won't count
21 2013-11-19 00:14:02 <danneu> Luke-Jr: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qxnzu/can_you_fix_the_leveldb_database_corruption_bug/
22 2013-11-19 00:14:21 <Luke-Jr> warren: well, it's not on that page
23 2013-11-19 00:14:22 <Luke-Jr> so
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26 2013-11-19 00:15:35 <warren> Luke-Jr: second or third page
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29 2013-11-19 00:17:48 <Thepok> hm bitcoin is at transatcionmaximum...pools should rais blocksizelimit
30 2013-11-19 00:18:02 <Emcy> nope
31 2013-11-19 00:18:08 <Thepok> why nope?
32 2013-11-19 00:18:14 <t7> oh shit i found 0.013
33 2013-11-19 00:18:32 <Emcy> cos ur wrong
34 2013-11-19 00:18:50 <Thepok> btc guild allways is at 487
35 2013-11-19 00:19:00 <Thepok> and slush 243 kbyte
36 2013-11-19 00:19:25 <Emcy> they choose to be
37 2013-11-19 00:19:32 <Thepok> thats bad
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39 2013-11-19 00:20:00 <Thepok> many noobs gone cry why transaction takes so long :(
40 2013-11-19 00:20:10 <Thepok> bad first impression
41 2013-11-19 00:20:21 <Emcy> pay more fee
42 2013-11-19 00:20:53 <Thepok> no talking with you....
43 2013-11-19 00:21:03 jorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
44 2013-11-19 00:21:58 <Emcy> cry more then
45 2013-11-19 00:23:00 <Thepok> yeah its stupid...bitcoin is finaly in the spotlight, and it allready is overhelamed
46 2013-11-19 00:24:03 <danneu> well, what's the txnpool backorder look like
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48 2013-11-19 00:24:42 <Thepok> 7k
49 2013-11-19 00:24:58 <Thepok> ok 6k now
50 2013-11-19 00:26:27 t7 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131028112446])
51 2013-11-19 00:27:51 <danneu> it's a feature that block-throughput can't fit every single incessant transaction.
52 2013-11-19 00:28:39 <Thepok> but we are only at maybe 100k transaction a day
53 2013-11-19 00:28:46 <danneu> rather i imagine it's an issue once it's too expensive to get a txn prioritized
54 2013-11-19 00:29:40 <Thepok> capping it at 100k is poor :(
55 2013-11-19 00:30:05 <Thepok> \j btcguild
56 2013-11-19 00:30:12 Neozonz has joined
57 2013-11-19 00:30:31 <warren> Ryan52: the bounty in USD nearly doubled since yesterday ...
58 2013-11-19 00:31:43 <danneu> 100k isn't a very good metric by itself. more interesting would be a graph of the cheapest fee included in each block over time
59 2013-11-19 00:32:14 <sipa> danneu: the higheat fee/byte NOT included is even more interesting
60 2013-11-19 00:32:32 treaki has joined
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63 2013-11-19 00:33:05 <sipa> ;;diff
64 2013-11-19 00:33:05 <gribble> 6.094826798883545E8
65 2013-11-19 00:33:11 <gmaxwell> danneu: the cheapest fee included has some issues that higher/highest not included doesn't, because miners can have invisible agreements to include transactions. E.g. for years eligius had an agreement to priortize mtgox txn.
66 2013-11-19 00:33:47 <gmaxwell> ;;ticker --market btcn
67 2013-11-19 00:33:54 <gmaxwell> (hard to resist this bit of OT fun:)
68 2013-11-19 00:33:54 <gribble> BTCChina BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 1010.856, Best ask: 1013.9739, Bid-ask spread: 3.11790, Last trade: 1010.856, 24 hour volume: 102974.13100000, 24 hour low: 656.0718, 24 hour high: 1014.138, 24 hour vwap: 662.025949388
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70 2013-11-19 00:34:47 <sipa> i should never have sold my mining income :p
71 2013-11-19 00:35:47 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
72 2013-11-19 00:36:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: welcome to the club
73 2013-11-19 00:36:49 imton has quit (Quit: imton)
74 2013-11-19 00:38:19 <roconnor> sipa: why not?
75 2013-11-19 00:38:22 ValicekB has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
76 2013-11-19 00:38:23 <petertodd> sipa: paying attention to first and second year calculus rather than Bitcoin was one of the most expensive mistakes of my life
77 2013-11-19 00:39:00 <BlueMatt> hah!
78 2013-11-19 00:39:26 <BlueMatt> luckily some of us started bitcoin way back in high school, were we could work on bitcoin and then sleepwalk during the day at school and noone cared :)
79 2013-11-19 00:39:41 <petertodd> BlueMatt: I found an email awhile back from dec 2009 telling a friend about bitcoin... didn't buy until 2 years later IIRC
80 2013-11-19 00:39:45 * roconnor feels old
81 2013-11-19 00:39:49 <sipa> roconnor: having a few thousand BTC would be nice :)
82 2013-11-19 00:39:55 <sipa> *now
83 2013-11-19 00:40:08 <gmaxwell> roconnor: he's lamenting with perfect hindsight that he didn't get $1000 in cny for each of his coins.
84 2013-11-19 00:40:09 <Belxjander> sipa: I would settle for having at least 10-20 BTC right now...
85 2013-11-19 00:40:27 <roconnor> sipa: oh, you are saying at the current price the old mining would have been profitable after all?
86 2013-11-19 00:40:29 <Belxjander> then I would be able to actively start making an income or at least working on expanding it up further
87 2013-11-19 00:40:39 <sipa> roconnor: it *was* profitable
88 2013-11-19 00:40:40 kinglet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
89 2013-11-19 00:40:40 <Emcy> are we all crying into our hands as we get fabulously rich
90 2013-11-19 00:41:03 <BlueMatt> Emcy: we are all crying as we *dont* get fabulously rich
91 2013-11-19 00:41:05 <sipa> roconnor: i'm not complaining about the mining - i enjoyed all time i put into it
92 2013-11-19 00:41:07 <roconnor> Emcy: I have no bitcoin holdings. :)
93 2013-11-19 00:41:21 kinglet has joined
94 2013-11-19 00:41:27 <roconnor> my policy is to not speculate on currencies.
95 2013-11-19 00:41:29 <Emcy> that feel gents
96 2013-11-19 00:41:32 <Emcy> that feel
97 2013-11-19 00:41:52 <roconnor> I find them difficult to value.
98 2013-11-19 00:42:17 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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100 2013-11-19 00:42:25 <Emcy> its as valid as any of the other bullshit market valuations out there
101 2013-11-19 00:42:34 <danneu> not exactly a profound insight there, roconnor
102 2013-11-19 00:42:37 <Emcy> like ehem facebook opening at 100bn
103 2013-11-19 00:42:41 <randy-waterhouse> what's up with the blockchain?
104 2013-11-19 00:42:49 <petertodd> sipa: This is why I set aside some BTC in nLockTime'd future tx's that I simply can't spend...
105 2013-11-19 00:42:52 <Emcy> if the suits can do it why cant we
106 2013-11-19 00:43:18 <Emcy> petertodd thats a good idea
107 2013-11-19 00:43:48 <Emcy> thats a good idea for people with the balls to play around with raw txs
108 2013-11-19 00:44:09 <petertodd> Emcy: yeah, you *really* don't want to put all your BTC in that, just in case there's ever a crypto break or you lose your privkey, but a little is fine and kinda fun to do.
109 2013-11-19 00:44:14 <randy-waterhouse> BTC Guild got orphaned?
110 2013-11-19 00:44:37 <gmaxwell> petertodd: uh, why not ... just don't spend it?
111 2013-11-19 00:44:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: because I'm a weak-willed human being
112 2013-11-19 00:45:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: it prevents yourself from panic selling :)
113 2013-11-19 00:45:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I mean, being addicted to crack is hard to deal with, even as mayor of toronto...
114 2013-11-19 00:45:22 <sipa> by making the decision not to do so on a more reasonable yet less informed point in time
115 2013-11-19 00:46:03 <lianj> in insanity news: bitcoin just cracked 1k in chinas viewpoint oO
116 2013-11-19 00:46:21 <gmaxwell> different strokes from different folks. I don't believe I've ever violated such a precommitment even though I could.
117 2013-11-19 00:46:21 twmz has joined
118 2013-11-19 00:46:26 <gmaxwell> lianj: scroll up. :P
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123 2013-11-19 00:47:00 <lianj> gmaxwell: oh rite
124 2013-11-19 00:47:11 twmz has joined
125 2013-11-19 00:47:18 <lianj> but true, its OT
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128 2013-11-19 00:47:55 * petertodd is gonna sell and buy some tulips... for his garden.
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131 2013-11-19 00:48:20 <sipa> you should move to the netherlands, petertodd
132 2013-11-19 00:48:30 d3p0rt3d has left ()
133 2013-11-19 00:48:43 <petertodd> sipa: with the way the BTC rate is going, I'll just move the netherlands to me
134 2013-11-19 00:49:14 <sipa> petertodd: not as long as the dutch combined have more btc than you :D
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137 2013-11-19 00:49:56 <petertodd> sipa: see, the reason why the bitcoin codebase sucks so much is I was getting distracted by first year calc...
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141 2013-11-19 00:50:40 <warren> (why netherlands? huh?)
142 2013-11-19 00:51:08 <petertodd> warren: tulip mania
143 2013-11-19 00:51:35 <sipa> petertodd: wait, you're not japanese, are you?
144 2013-11-19 00:51:57 <petertodd> sipa: pff, that was just a ploy
145 2013-11-19 00:52:07 <petertodd> sipa: like writing it in windows
146 2013-11-19 00:52:17 <sipa> windings?
147 2013-11-19 00:52:45 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, render the genesis block message in windings and you'll see my hidden message
148 2013-11-19 00:52:57 <sipa> cool
149 2013-11-19 00:53:02 <oneman> lal
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160 2013-11-19 01:03:04 <Ryan52> warren: wow, nice! I found a suitable set of iMac's that I can borrow from today today, but I'm going to pick one up and get it setup for experimenting with tomorrow night. I want to try to decide which one might be best to try with before I take one home, though.
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165 2013-11-19 01:03:34 <Ryan52> s/today today/today/ # /me is brainfail "today today"
166 2013-11-19 01:03:34 finway has joined
167 2013-11-19 01:03:39 <warren> Ryan52: seems several other people are jumping on this
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170 2013-11-19 01:08:28 <Ryan52> warren: hm. any notable progress? think they have enough head start for me to not have a decent chance at it if I start tomorrow night?
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173 2013-11-19 01:09:23 <warren> Ryan52: I have no idea
174 2013-11-19 01:09:31 <sipa> i doubt it
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178 2013-11-19 01:14:53 <Ryan52> warren: where is all the activity?
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188 2013-11-19 01:20:51 <finway> It took 20 minutes to sync the last 4 blocks(59-62) on bitcoin-qt (win7), anyone has the same problem?
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196 2013-11-19 01:27:25 <BlueMatt> hmm...master crashes horribly if you try to open -qt and get a connection before its ready for them
197 2013-11-19 01:28:56 <finway> BlueMatt, what do you mean?
198 2013-11-19 01:29:24 <BlueMatt> popsup dialog box, entire gui freezes, doesnt come back
199 2013-11-19 01:29:38 andytoshi has joined
200 2013-11-19 01:29:52 <BlueMatt> and Im too lazy to debug, so I figured Id see if someone here was working :)
201 2013-11-19 01:33:01 shesek has joined
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203 2013-11-19 01:33:39 <finway> Seems ok now
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218 2013-11-19 01:48:23 <Emcy> people are reporting like hundreds of gb a month upload on bitcoin with lots of connections
219 2013-11-19 01:48:36 <Emcy> that cant be right, the maths cant be right on that
220 2013-11-19 01:49:09 one_zero has joined
221 2013-11-19 01:49:25 <Emcy> roughly how many kb/s is the netwrok stream now
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259 2013-11-19 02:22:22 <warren> MacOS X bounty update: I strongly suspect that corruption only happens on macs with time machine enabled. So far there are zero reports of corruption on macs without time machine.
260 2013-11-19 02:22:36 <warren> Ryan52:
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262 2013-11-19 02:22:48 <Diablo-D3> warren: that kind of makes sense
263 2013-11-19 02:22:57 <Diablo-D3> but then again it doesnt
264 2013-11-19 02:23:02 <Diablo-D3> I'd understand time machine backups being corrupt
265 2013-11-19 02:23:05 <Diablo-D3> but not the originals
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269 2013-11-19 02:24:34 <dexX7> devs, i have a question. i seems that the soft block size limits set by the pools were reached today and bitcoin is still very far away from being widely used. is this a problem and is there already a concrete solution?
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276 2013-11-19 02:27:49 <gwillen> hi -dev, are there any currently-known issues with 0.8.5 relating to open file limits?
277 2013-11-19 02:27:54 <gwillen> Or should that all be fixed in 0.8.5?
278 2013-11-19 02:28:17 <gwillen> I had a user PM me about multiple errors from -qt, which I diagnosed as probably a bad disk
279 2013-11-19 02:28:41 <gwillen> but I see open-file-limit issues coming up in google for the same error messages.
280 2013-11-19 02:28:52 <gwillen> Adn I recall hearing about that recently.
281 2013-11-19 02:30:08 <etotheipi_> gwillen, probably heard about it on the Armory thread
282 2013-11-19 02:30:34 <gwillen> etotheipi_: do you know if -qt current release has issues like that?
283 2013-11-19 02:30:52 tsche has joined
284 2013-11-19 02:30:55 <etotheipi_> we just figured out that when you startup leveldb, there's an leveldb::Options property: opts.max_open_files
285 2013-11-19 02:30:59 <gwillen> I see there was a change 7 months ago that was supposed to fix those kinds of issues in -qt.
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287 2013-11-19 02:31:07 <gwillen> etotheipi_: yeah, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/fe15aa335c223a37a1196d5f509fbe8059b733bb
288 2013-11-19 02:31:14 <etotheipi_> if you search for that in the bitcoin-qt source code for that, you can probably trace it to a command line arg
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290 2013-11-19 02:31:29 <gwillen> etotheipi_: that change fixes it at 64.
291 2013-11-19 02:32:00 <etotheipi_> yeah, I only had the problem with 32-bit linux, so I simply detect isLinux && is32Bit, and set the max_open_files=75 if so
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293 2013-11-19 02:33:12 <gwillen> etotheipi_: interesting, thanks.
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367 2013-11-19 03:33:09 <super3> kinda empty today
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379 2013-11-19 03:42:14 <jeremias> is there any tool which could check why a transaction is rejected?
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382 2013-11-19 03:43:54 <BlueMatt> debug.log
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404 2013-11-19 04:21:19 <beethoven8201> is there a client that supports n of m?
405 2013-11-19 04:21:27 <beethoven8201> armory has been talking about it forever
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425 2013-11-19 04:40:07 <Emcy> beethoven8201 nothing in gui afaik. I have no idea why they rushed it through 2 years ago.
426 2013-11-19 04:40:24 <Emcy> you can do with with a bitcoind rawtx i think
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432 2013-11-19 04:43:40 <CodeShark> I have a GUI client but it's still not public
433 2013-11-19 04:44:37 pierce has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
434 2013-11-19 04:44:59 <CodeShark> stay tuned, though :)
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445 2013-11-19 05:00:58 <maaku> Emcy: because soft-forking now with all the new stakeholders would be a nightmare
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450 2013-11-19 05:02:52 <Emcy> so they can never soft fork again?
451 2013-11-19 05:03:01 pierce has joined
452 2013-11-19 05:03:11 <Luke-Jr> maaku: erm, not quite
453 2013-11-19 05:03:16 <Luke-Jr> softforking is mostly painless now
454 2013-11-19 05:03:48 <Luke-Jr> it was done 2 years ago because we expected it to be used 2 years ago
455 2013-11-19 05:04:33 tsche has joined
456 2013-11-19 05:04:43 <Emcy> i cant see how
457 2013-11-19 05:04:53 <Luke-Jr> Emcy: ?
458 2013-11-19 05:05:11 <maaku> Luke-Jr: well, i seem to remember it was a pain to get P2SH through, and I thought that one had obvious merits
459 2013-11-19 05:05:15 <Emcy> it was ahuge rush and a shitstorm and then nothing
460 2013-11-19 05:05:27 lordbunson has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
461 2013-11-19 05:05:41 <Emcy> even people who could and should really be using it are not
462 2013-11-19 05:05:48 <phrackage> ok so there was a senate hearing today, but was a final outcome actually published? Or is it just dopes who are saying "bitcoin is now 'legal'"?
463 2013-11-19 05:06:03 <Emcy> hearing?
464 2013-11-19 05:06:16 <maaku> phrackage: there aren't "final outcomes"
465 2013-11-19 05:06:17 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
466 2013-11-19 05:06:25 AndyOfiesh has joined
467 2013-11-19 05:06:26 <maaku> in senate hearings
468 2013-11-19 05:06:44 <maaku> and no, despite news reports there was basically zero relevant new info
469 2013-11-19 05:06:51 lordbunson has joined
470 2013-11-19 05:06:59 <Luke-Jr> maaku: it was a pain because the technical aspects of P2SH were stupid
471 2013-11-19 05:07:17 lophie has joined
472 2013-11-19 05:07:43 <phrackage> the news on bitcoin rims goats
473 2013-11-19 05:08:46 <maaku> Bernanke came out and said "it's not the role of the Fed to regulate bitcoin" ... which was already known
474 2013-11-19 05:09:17 <maaku> If anything it's the job of FinCEN, SEC, consumer protection, secret service, and a half dozen other agencies
475 2013-11-19 05:09:37 <maaku> But somehow it was spun in a crazy way
476 2013-11-19 05:09:48 <beethoven8201> maaku: I thought the hearing was quite good
477 2013-11-19 05:10:16 richcollins has joined
478 2013-11-19 05:10:22 <maaku> beethoven8201: I agree and think the same, but the news report summaries of it were rediculous and off the point
479 2013-11-19 05:10:26 <maaku> that's what I'm responding to
480 2013-11-19 05:10:28 bitanarchy has joined
481 2013-11-19 05:10:45 <maaku> i particularly liked the al-gore-is-satoshi theory
482 2013-11-19 05:10:54 <Luke-Jr> O.o?
483 2013-11-19 05:11:01 <beethoven8201> maaku: I dunno. politions too tongue and cheek
484 2013-11-19 05:11:10 <beethoven8201> politians
485 2013-11-19 05:11:20 <beethoven8201> politicians
486 2013-11-19 05:11:22 <beethoven8201> jesus
487 2013-11-19 05:11:24 <beethoven8201> english
488 2013-11-19 05:11:34 <bitanarchy> hi
489 2013-11-19 05:11:38 <beethoven8201> hi bitanarchy
490 2013-11-19 05:14:46 ToryJujube has joined
491 2013-11-19 05:18:44 <Jason> maaku: lol
492 2013-11-19 05:18:45 <Jason> maaku: al gore?
493 2013-11-19 05:18:49 <Jason> <3 al gore
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518 2013-11-19 05:43:01 <Ryan52> warren: Interesting, I can't find details about whether there is anything kernel level involved with Time Machine's operations, but assuming not, I guess there are two angles that could be taken... either the logging of file changes (which bitcoin surely hammers hard, but presumably happens at FS level so would happen even without TM enabled) or something in the backup process itself interacting badly, somehow.
519 2013-11-19 05:44:24 Bkil has joined
520 2013-11-19 05:45:39 <Ryan52> warren: Unless corruption could be caused by starting with a corrupt backup from TM, but presumably that would fail sooner. Following the backup interaction thought, has anybody tried to see if repeatedly running TM backups while downloading the blockchain helps trigger corruption? That may smell like a red herring, but surely whatever the problem is will, or else it would be much more obvious to somebody by now.
521 2013-11-19 05:45:53 Polyatomic has joined
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525 2013-11-19 05:50:41 AndyOfiesh has joined
526 2013-11-19 05:50:43 * Ryan52 also wonders how many bitcoin users are not using time machine, because perhaps that would statistically makes the correlation seen here irrelevant, if they are few.. but definitely wants to remain optimistic about warren's potential lead here, it sounds like there could be something subtle to it, for sure.
527 2013-11-19 05:52:41 Bkil has quit (Quit: Bye)
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529 2013-11-19 05:54:24 <Ryan52> Looks like to rule out backup process interaction, somebody could repeatedly initiate a new backup with a minute break between by doing something like this:
530 2013-11-19 05:54:34 <Ryan52> while true; do /System/Library/CoreServices/backupd.bundle/Contents/Resources/backupd-helper; sleep 60; done
531 2013-11-19 05:54:45 * Ryan52 still has no mac to verify anything he is saying, tho
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535 2013-11-19 06:03:05 <phrackage> if i rsync the block chain to another machine, can I avoid bitcoind or Bitcoin-Qt having to redo the whole damn thing?
536 2013-11-19 06:03:54 guest12345 has quit (Client Quit)
537 2013-11-19 06:06:00 <beethoven8201> phrackage: theoretically yes. give it a try? I have not done so myself
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544 2013-11-19 06:10:55 <phrackage> stand-by beethoven8201
545 2013-11-19 06:11:35 <phrackage> 'verifying blocks' for ages, which is a good sign
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564 2013-11-19 06:30:25 <CodeShark> you can just copy over the datadir
565 2013-11-19 06:30:40 <CodeShark> should certainly work
566 2013-11-19 06:31:07 <phrackage> maybe i'll setup an rsync server for those who can't be bothered waiting for all the boring P2P action to filter though
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568 2013-11-19 06:32:36 <CodeShark> you could create a git repo and do daily commits
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570 2013-11-19 06:32:49 <phrackage> CodeShark: interesting idea
571 2013-11-19 06:33:20 <phrackage> does git do nice deltas on big files?
572 2013-11-19 06:33:24 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: wouldn't make sense to
573 2013-11-19 06:33:51 <Luke-Jr> phrackage: it's not secure to take a blockchain index from someone else
574 2013-11-19 06:34:17 <phrackage> doesn't the verification step sort that out?
575 2013-11-19 06:34:25 <Luke-Jr> there is no verification if you do that..
576 2013-11-19 06:34:29 <CodeShark> it's not *as* secure as doing full validation yourself - but there's still some amount of security in that new blocks still need to connect to it
577 2013-11-19 06:34:40 <phrackage> mine seems to be chewing on 'verification' for an awfully long time to be not doing anything
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579 2013-11-19 06:34:44 <CodeShark> would be a serious problem if miners started relying on it, though
580 2013-11-19 06:34:45 Coincidental has joined
581 2013-11-19 06:35:05 <Luke-Jr> phrackage: if you mean the short one at startup, that's just the most recent blocks, to check for corruption
582 2013-11-19 06:35:14 <phrackage> true, i was thinking more for people at home who don't want to wait 3 days+ for the blockchain
583 2013-11-19 06:35:22 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: you might as well use a SPV node in that case
584 2013-11-19 06:35:36 <Luke-Jr> phrackage: it doesn't take 3 days with any decent hardware
585 2013-11-19 06:35:46 <CodeShark> yeah, not saying it's a good solution
586 2013-11-19 06:36:01 <phrackage> my hardware is pretty fast (8 core i7), the internet connection is 8 megabit, and it takes 3 days
587 2013-11-19 06:36:21 <phrackage> anything above an hour is kinda poor for post people
588 2013-11-19 06:36:32 <CodeShark> headers-only sync takes anywhere from seconds to minutes at most
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590 2013-11-19 06:36:54 <CodeShark> minutes would mean a very laggy connection
591 2013-11-19 06:36:58 <Luke-Jr> phrackage: this is why MultiBit is the recommended client for new people at the moment
592 2013-11-19 06:37:00 pataroose has joined
593 2013-11-19 06:37:03 * phrackage nods
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596 2013-11-19 06:38:35 <CodeShark> problem with SPV nodes is they cannot relay
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599 2013-11-19 06:39:23 <CodeShark> would be nice to construct a hash tree of the utxo set to allow people to start up relay nodes quickly
600 2013-11-19 06:42:01 <CodeShark> and adding the tree hash to block headers would force miners to maintain the complete utxo set
601 2013-11-19 06:42:59 <edcba> so do we settled on the milliBTC microBTC etc denominations ?
602 2013-11-19 06:44:05 <Luke-Jr> ?
603 2013-11-19 06:44:38 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
604 2013-11-19 06:45:07 <edcba> CodeShark: why dod you need hash tree to relay tx ?
605 2013-11-19 06:45:11 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
606 2013-11-19 06:45:42 <CodeShark> you'd need the utxo itself - but the hash would make it easy to compare two utxo sets
607 2013-11-19 06:46:46 <CodeShark> also, nodes could prune the utxo set at will to lower memory requirements
608 2013-11-19 06:46:58 <CodeShark> perhaps only relay some transactions, not all
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610 2013-11-19 06:47:26 <CodeShark> would allow for a more scalable network architecture
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612 2013-11-19 06:48:06 <edcba> what is the size of utxo ?
613 2013-11-19 06:49:52 <edcba> hmm about 7000tx
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615 2013-11-19 06:50:48 <CodeShark> 2290062 transactions, 7485570 txouts
616 2013-11-19 06:51:06 <CodeShark> 261 MB
617 2013-11-19 06:51:08 <CodeShark> serialized
618 2013-11-19 06:52:53 <edcba> bitcoinchain doesn't really agree...
619 2013-11-19 06:53:19 <CodeShark> where are you looking?
620 2013-11-19 06:53:29 <edcba> maybe the wrong thing then
621 2013-11-19 06:53:40 <CodeShark> I'm getting these numbers from bitcoind
622 2013-11-19 06:53:50 <edcba> http://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions
623 2013-11-19 06:54:13 <CodeShark> utxo = unspent transaction output, not unconfirmed transaction
624 2013-11-19 06:55:18 <edcba> oh ok
625 2013-11-19 06:55:52 <edcba> oh so you want to relay balance
626 2013-11-19 06:55:58 MoALTz_ has joined
627 2013-11-19 06:56:07 <CodeShark> no, that's not exactly what I'm saying
628 2013-11-19 06:56:32 <edcba> that makes a bit more sense for merkle hash tree now
629 2013-11-19 06:56:56 one_zero has joined
630 2013-11-19 06:57:15 <CodeShark> well, it's sorta what I'm saying - but not exactly. utxo is the closest thing in the bitcoin protocol to a "balance"
631 2013-11-19 06:57:23 <edcba> but anyway maybe sort them then hash them so it would be easier to compare
632 2013-11-19 06:58:35 hellome has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
633 2013-11-19 06:58:38 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
634 2013-11-19 06:58:39 <edcba> but the problem is to trust that tree
635 2013-11-19 06:59:32 <CodeShark> there would still need to be a critical mass of independently operating non-colluding full validation nodes
636 2013-11-19 06:59:36 <edcba> maybe a change in the protocol with some pruning block every x blocks announcing that
637 2013-11-19 06:59:58 reizuki__ has joined
638 2013-11-19 07:00:03 <CodeShark> but you could now have a bunch of relay nodes added to the network that do not need to perform full validation on everything
639 2013-11-19 07:00:15 digitalmagus2 has joined
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641 2013-11-19 07:00:47 <edcba> anyway when you download your initial client the balance + starting block may be included instead of starting from genesis
642 2013-11-19 07:01:20 <edcba> so you have some semi trusted blockchain until it catches up with start of genesis
643 2013-11-19 07:01:28 <CodeShark> SPV clients do a headers-only sync, then can ask for merkle blocks
644 2013-11-19 07:02:34 <CodeShark> the two possible attack avenues would be constructing an invalid (but more difficult chain) or withholding messages
645 2013-11-19 07:03:37 <CodeShark> the first one is thought to be too costly to be practical, the second is mitigated by connecting to several nodes
646 2013-11-19 07:04:19 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
647 2013-11-19 07:04:40 <CodeShark> it's still somewhat vulnerable to a sybil attack
648 2013-11-19 07:05:22 <CodeShark> it's also vulnerable to mitm attacks, unless the communications are signed/encrypted/authenticated
649 2013-11-19 07:05:50 go1111111 has joined
650 2013-11-19 07:07:50 twobitcoins_ has joined
651 2013-11-19 07:09:01 <CodeShark> speaking of which, shouldn't we move to bitcoin ALWAYS using encrypted communication?
652 2013-11-19 07:09:38 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: why encrypt public information?
653 2013-11-19 07:09:43 <CodeShark> mitm
654 2013-11-19 07:09:56 <Luke-Jr> â¦
655 2013-11-19 07:09:58 <Luke-Jr> it's public
656 2013-11-19 07:10:12 <CodeShark> mitm could allow people to withhold data from nodes
657 2013-11-19 07:10:47 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
658 2013-11-19 07:10:58 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: if they can MITM, they'll just not let you connect to anyone besides themselves..
659 2013-11-19 07:11:13 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: or even let you think you're connected to some other IP but only be them
660 2013-11-19 07:11:24 <Luke-Jr> there's no such thing as anonymous encryption
661 2013-11-19 07:11:25 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
662 2013-11-19 07:11:41 <CodeShark> you're right...
663 2013-11-19 07:11:50 <sipa> it won't hurt either
664 2013-11-19 07:12:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa: false sense of security, more CPU use (DDoS vectors?), etc
665 2013-11-19 07:12:04 <sipa> if you combine it with host keys
666 2013-11-19 07:12:22 <Luke-Jr> maybe it won't hurt, but it *could* hurt
667 2013-11-19 07:12:27 Anduck has joined
668 2013-11-19 07:12:38 <sipa> yeah, the false sense of security is a consideration
669 2013-11-19 07:12:40 yubrew has joined
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671 2013-11-19 07:13:14 <Luke-Jr> another consideration would be regulatory
672 2013-11-19 07:13:21 <Luke-Jr> right now, it's possible to do a Bitcoin client without using any encryption
673 2013-11-19 07:14:10 wavelet has left ("Leaving")
674 2013-11-19 07:16:49 <CodeShark> but it's also possible to use tor - so average, legitimate users don't benefit while clever criminals do
675 2013-11-19 07:17:21 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
676 2013-11-19 07:17:55 <CodeShark> as long as they don't do something stupid like publish a real google email address on a public forum :p
677 2013-11-19 07:19:18 deepc0re has joined
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683 2013-11-19 07:24:50 <sturles> Ehm.. Shoudl bitcoind using default setting generate a 2227 byte tx with no fees attached? 116ee7a83614eef5e4ba4d1639776138118f637e39bd66c20d25f3017afec3c4
684 2013-11-19 07:27:18 <lianj> sturles: nope. should be 30_000 in fees
685 2013-11-19 07:28:08 <sipa> up to 27kB can be free afaik
686 2013-11-19 07:28:25 da2ce7 has joined
687 2013-11-19 07:28:25 <lianj> but how would it get relayed then?
688 2013-11-19 07:28:26 deepc0re has quit (Quit: deepc0re)
689 2013-11-19 07:28:34 maaku has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
690 2013-11-19 07:28:44 damethos has joined
691 2013-11-19 07:29:21 <lianj> GetMinFee will return 20_000 for that tx
692 2013-11-19 07:30:47 <lianj> oh wait, nevermind. GMF_SEND would return 30_000, but youre ofc right, GMF_RELAY returns 0
693 2013-11-19 07:31:55 maaku_ has joined
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695 2013-11-19 07:32:45 <sturles> I sent it using bitcoind with default settings. Something is wrong then. :-(
696 2013-11-19 07:33:01 maaku_ has left ()
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698 2013-11-19 07:33:34 <sipa> sturles: are any outputs below 0.01 BTC?
699 2013-11-19 07:38:41 <sturles> No.
700 2013-11-19 07:39:16 <sturles> It is getting relayed, but I doubt it will be confirmed this week.
701 2013-11-19 07:40:32 a_meteor has joined
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704 2013-11-19 07:47:39 <sipa> well, bitcoind only enforces whatever is necessary for relaying
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712 2013-11-19 07:51:02 <sturles> Is there an easy way to add more fees to a sendmany transaction?
713 2013-11-19 07:52:16 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
714 2013-11-19 07:52:29 <sipa> when creating, or afterwards?
715 2013-11-19 07:52:33 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
716 2013-11-19 07:52:51 <sturles> When crating.
717 2013-11-19 07:53:02 <sturles> bitcoind sendmany ...
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721 2013-11-19 07:54:48 <Luke-Jr> sturles: settxfee
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734 2013-11-19 08:12:52 <HaltingState> how do open transactions propagate? What is mechanism to ensure that client has set of all open transactions and what prevents you from redownloading a transaction that you have blacklisted or decided not to propagate?
735 2013-11-19 08:14:31 <HaltingState> *unconfirmed transactions
736 2013-11-19 08:15:03 damethos has joined
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738 2013-11-19 08:17:35 <sturles> Luke-Jr: In the config file?
739 2013-11-19 08:18:01 <Luke-Jr> sturles: it's a RPC method
740 2013-11-19 08:18:14 <fanquake> warren What's your suspicion with Time Machine?
741 2013-11-19 08:18:58 <HaltingState> nm found it in the wiki
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773 2013-11-19 09:04:28 <abrkn> what's a good paytxfee setting to get most transactions out in 3 confirmations?
774 2013-11-19 09:05:47 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
775 2013-11-19 09:10:43 e0s_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
776 2013-11-19 09:10:43 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
777 2013-11-19 09:10:54 <Luke-Jr> abrkn: your guess is as good as anyone's :/
778 2013-11-19 09:11:45 <CodeShark> well, it's possible to make an educated guess by looking at the last few blocks
779 2013-11-19 09:11:52 Scrat has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
780 2013-11-19 09:11:58 c0rw1n has joined
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782 2013-11-19 09:12:12 <CodeShark> and mempool
783 2013-11-19 09:12:44 <CodeShark> wasn't gavin implementing that?
784 2013-11-19 09:12:53 <abrkn> how about 0.0001 btc/kb? just had a withdraw of 4 btc end in 14 hour queue
785 2013-11-19 09:13:19 Coincidental has joined
786 2013-11-19 09:13:37 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: yes, but I don't know if anyone's got results yet
787 2013-11-19 09:15:21 <abrkn> i know this is being addressed in ~0.9, so i just need a quick fix
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815 2013-11-19 09:47:58 <sturles> Is child-pay-for-parent smart enough to let one child pay for several parents if the fee is high enough?'
816 2013-11-19 09:48:30 hwolf has joined
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823 2013-11-19 09:55:04 <sturles> Well.. Not much to lose by trying.
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834 2013-11-19 10:14:44 <CodeShark> lol, the blockchain.info confirmation estimate calculation is on crack
835 2013-11-19 10:14:48 agnostic98 has joined
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837 2013-11-19 10:15:39 <sturles> Not very accurate, no.
838 2013-11-19 10:15:53 geminigr has joined
839 2013-11-19 10:15:57 <sturles> I sent this: https://blockchain.info/tx/a7fe9b854c4f478c0117146d6638f5ba1c114622d53f1beae136ee014b5c701f
840 2013-11-19 10:16:01 <CodeShark> like up to orders of magnitude inaccurate
841 2013-11-19 10:16:25 <sturles> But bitcoind on my other compuers (except the one I sent from) won't even relay it.
842 2013-11-19 10:16:32 <sturles> :-(
843 2013-11-19 10:16:55 <sturles> I was hoping for a nice child-pays-for-parent tx, but it isn't going to get mined unless it is relayed.
844 2013-11-19 10:17:23 Eiii has quit ()
845 2013-11-19 10:17:46 <CodeShark> I just sent a couple transactions that blockchain.info estimated at 30 hour confirmation time - they were confirmed in minutes
846 2013-11-19 10:18:00 <sturles> I wish mine were. :-(
847 2013-11-19 10:18:33 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
848 2013-11-19 10:19:04 <geminigr> does newly calculated block, assuming it's valid, require majority before it gets added to the blockchain or does it happens as it's being relayed from node to node?
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850 2013-11-19 10:19:45 <CodeShark> the blockchain is the most difficult valid chain at any given moment
851 2013-11-19 10:20:07 <CodeShark> whatever the node considers to be the most difficult valid chain, that's the block chain
852 2013-11-19 10:20:33 <CodeShark> there's no voting of any kind
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854 2013-11-19 10:21:22 <CodeShark> if your node receives a block which makes the chain its in the most difficult your node knows about, as far as your node is concerned, that block is part of the official block chain
855 2013-11-19 10:21:42 <lianj> sturles: you t has multiple unconfirmed inputs
856 2013-11-19 10:21:59 <CodeShark> lianj: he was trying to do child-pays-for-parent
857 2013-11-19 10:22:10 <lianj> that rarly works
858 2013-11-19 10:22:17 TD_ has left ()
859 2013-11-19 10:22:19 <geminigr> thx CodeShark
860 2013-11-19 10:22:30 TD has joined
861 2013-11-19 10:22:33 <sturles> Is there any other way to pay for old mistakes to get a tx confirmed?
862 2013-11-19 10:22:53 <lianj> sturles: ask a miner to add it
863 2013-11-19 10:23:01 <lianj> and then don't do it again :P
864 2013-11-19 10:23:40 <CodeShark> or doublespend one of the inputs to void the entire transaction chain
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909 2013-11-19 11:18:24 <oleganza> hi! what's the easiest way to get raw tx for a given ID?
910 2013-11-19 11:18:32 zeddan81 has joined
911 2013-11-19 11:18:40 <oleganza> i have an unconfirmed tx, want to back it up before it disappears
912 2013-11-19 11:19:08 <midnightmagic> CodeShark: The double-spend won't be relayed..
913 2013-11-19 11:19:28 <CodeShark> it will be if the original transactions weren't
914 2013-11-19 11:19:30 <lianj> oleganza: whats the id?
915 2013-11-19 11:19:36 horrror has joined
916 2013-11-19 11:19:38 <oleganza> 2b9bafc1cd8b1035b95a6829c086ea94352ab718ed9312e0a8b8a6286e52c13e
917 2013-11-19 11:20:16 <oleganza> lianj: 2b9bafc1cd8b1035b95a6829c086ea94352ab718ed9312e0a8b8a6286e52c13e
918 2013-11-19 11:20:23 <stonecoldpat0> it depends u can use websites to look it up
919 2013-11-19 11:20:32 <stonecoldpat0> if its been put in a block
920 2013-11-19 11:20:45 <stonecoldpat0> or just bitcoind to look at the memory pool i guess
921 2013-11-19 11:21:20 <midnightmagic> sturles: Does blockchain.info connect directly to you?
922 2013-11-19 11:21:42 <oleganza> i don't have bitcoind up to date here
923 2013-11-19 11:21:50 <oleganza> i'd love if blockchain.info was showing that
924 2013-11-19 11:22:20 <CodeShark> yeah, agreed - blockchain.info tries to do too many clever "high level" interpretations of the data
925 2013-11-19 11:22:34 <CodeShark> like the script parsing and what not
926 2013-11-19 11:22:39 <CodeShark> but the raw transaction is more useful
927 2013-11-19 11:22:47 <midnightmagic> CodeShark: And it's super-solicitous, which is really bad.
928 2013-11-19 11:25:22 <stonecoldpat0> blockexplorer.com is usually ok for finding some of the raw data
929 2013-11-19 11:25:25 <stonecoldpat0> it gives you the json of it
930 2013-11-19 11:27:14 <CodeShark> but only for confirmed transactions, no?
931 2013-11-19 11:27:57 <stonecoldpat0> probably - im not sure to be honest
932 2013-11-19 11:28:03 <stonecoldpat0> i havent tried with an unconfirmed one
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937 2013-11-19 11:28:46 <CodeShark> if you need to do this frequently, you can always run a bitcoind with txindex
938 2013-11-19 11:30:07 <CodeShark> in any case, oleganza, it's
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941 2013-11-19 11:32:29 <moriarty> i'm exhausting all my suppliers' stash of BTC :(
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945 2013-11-19 11:38:53 <jaromil> uhm, is this bitcoin-dev or bitcoin-talk
946 2013-11-19 11:39:05 <jaromil> bitcoin-dev. check.
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1061 2013-11-19 13:42:23 <warren> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=337294 I strongly suspect that time machine is the difference between corruption and no corruption on MacOS X.
1062 2013-11-19 13:42:37 <warren> Please report to confirm this.
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1071 2013-11-19 13:51:27 <SomeoneWeird> warren interesting
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1090 2013-11-19 14:16:27 <wumpus> yes, interesting
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1104 2013-11-19 14:37:51 <danneu> that makes sense
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1126 2013-11-19 15:00:54 <CodeShark> petertodd, you there?
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1149 2013-11-19 15:21:10 <pigeons> I keep looping over and over with this message for the same range of blocks :ERROR: ProcessBlock() : already have block
1150 2013-11-19 15:21:39 <pigeons> with git head
1151 2013-11-19 15:21:53 <pigeons> just wait longer and it'll stop?
1152 2013-11-19 15:22:07 <sipa> restarting may help
1153 2013-11-19 15:22:18 <sipa> the block fetching algorithm is known to be easily confused
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1155 2013-11-19 15:23:16 <CodeShark> confused to the point where it becomes unstable and/or unable to make progress?
1156 2013-11-19 15:24:47 <sipa> it usually makes progress again when a new block is announced on the network
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1161 2013-11-19 15:27:36 <CodeShark> so the issue is that a getdata is being sent for inventory we already have?
1162 2013-11-19 15:28:35 <sipa> yes and no
1163 2013-11-19 15:28:50 <pigeons> seems better after restart , thanks
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1165 2013-11-19 15:29:14 <helo> when a -reindex fixes a "stuck" node, is it because of a disk corruption problem?
1166 2013-11-19 15:29:23 <sipa> helo: maybe
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1168 2013-11-19 15:31:24 <andytoshi> if you guys are interested, i have a script which runs via cron and emails me all the commits to the bitcoin repo
1169 2013-11-19 15:31:26 <andytoshi> http://pastebin.com/hrUiEAq7
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1171 2013-11-19 15:31:56 <andytoshi> it's useful for people like me who rarely get around to sync'ing the repo, and would like to see what's up without wading through 1000 commits every time
1172 2013-11-19 15:32:10 <CodeShark> there's no subscription API for github?
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1177 2013-11-19 15:34:02 <imton> sipa: watch-only ./script.h:570:31: error: unknown type name 'CTxDestination'
1178 2013-11-19 15:34:23 <imton> sipa: I am merging branches....
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1281 2013-11-19 16:46:36 <graingert> gmaxwell: I'm currently talking to BBC News about their description of bitcoin
1282 2013-11-19 16:46:37 <graingert> gmaxwell: https://gist.github.com/graingert/4ede215c342c44c6fd6a/revisions
1283 2013-11-19 16:46:55 <graingert> gmaxwell: the first commit is their new content, the revisions are my changes
1284 2013-11-19 16:47:11 <graingert> gmaxwell: it would be great if you could review it
1285 2013-11-19 16:48:02 <graingert> BlueMatt: ^
1286 2013-11-19 16:48:14 <graingert> phantomcircuit: ^
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1291 2013-11-19 16:51:16 <graingert> is anybody alive
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1293 2013-11-19 16:52:14 <imton> I am alive :)
1294 2013-11-19 16:53:32 <imton> I read that, seems understandable
1295 2013-11-19 16:54:00 <petertodd> CodeShark: ?
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1297 2013-11-19 16:54:38 <imton> guys, rpc listreceivedbyaddress
1298 2013-11-19 16:54:45 <imton> reports confirmations by address
1299 2013-11-19 16:54:50 <imton> isn't that wrong?
1300 2013-11-19 16:54:59 <imton> confirmations should be listed by each tx
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1314 2013-11-19 17:01:21 <erle-> is there any detailed documentation about the structure of the wallet.dat file?
1315 2013-11-19 17:01:46 <andytoshi> erle-: the source ;)
1316 2013-11-19 17:01:48 <erle-> if i open it with python, it just says it is a berkeley db with a single key
1317 2013-11-19 17:02:05 <andytoshi> you can probably use the bdb tools to poke around in there
1318 2013-11-19 17:02:12 <erle-> andytoshi, tried to figure out the source already, i think reverse engineering is easier
1319 2013-11-19 17:03:12 <TD> errrrr
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1321 2013-11-19 17:04:00 <erle-> andytoshi, maybe i write some documentation during the process
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1324 2013-11-19 17:05:37 <andytoshi> that'd be awesome
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1326 2013-11-19 17:06:10 <andytoshi> if i were you i'd wait for the channel to pick up a bit and ask some of the actual devs where/how you would submit docs
1327 2013-11-19 17:06:23 <erle-> yes
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1387 2013-11-19 18:00:02 <danneu> erle-: https://github.com/jackjack-jj/pywallet/blob/master/pywallet.py#L2427
1388 2013-11-19 18:01:16 <danneu> i'm sure there are more readable wallet parsing implementations
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1395 2013-11-19 18:03:18 <wumpus> danneu: not so sure about that :)
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1416 2013-11-19 18:18:15 <erle-> danneu, i am already reading it
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1481 2013-11-19 19:20:23 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
1482 2013-11-19 19:20:23 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #466: FIXED in 42 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/466/
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1488 2013-11-19 19:22:36 <BlueMatt> graingert: solutions are 64-hexits, not digits :p
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1490 2013-11-19 19:23:14 <BlueMatt> graingert: number of new btc/day is not constant, number of blocks/day is
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1493 2013-11-19 19:26:14 <BlueMatt> graingert: "Since there is no registry of these addresses" huh?
1494 2013-11-19 19:26:18 <BlueMatt> very misleading
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1496 2013-11-19 19:27:26 <BlueMatt> graingert: not sure if miners really "process" bitcoin transactions, I usually like to say "miners provide the network with additional security"
1497 2013-11-19 19:28:01 <BlueMatt> graingert: s/generated by the Bitcoin client/generated by A Bitcoin client/
1498 2013-11-19 19:28:11 <sipa> miners help the netword agree on a single history of transactions
1499 2013-11-19 19:28:35 <BlueMatt> sipa: my grandma doesn't quite understand that statement without a lot of extra context...
1500 2013-11-19 19:28:37 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1501 2013-11-19 19:28:53 <sipa> then you'll need to explain the word 'netword' to her!!!
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1503 2013-11-19 19:29:01 <BlueMatt> heh, well, that too
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1505 2013-11-19 19:29:31 <BlueMatt> any other sources for "get current best block hash" other than bc.i/bbe that I can race the relay network with?
1506 2013-11-19 19:29:35 <BlueMatt> bc.i/bbe are too easy...
1507 2013-11-19 19:29:52 <BlueMatt> pool api or so?
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1547 2013-11-19 20:04:55 <petertodd> BlueMatt: oh yeah, I'm using your relay thing btw
1548 2013-11-19 20:05:14 <BlueMatt> petertodd: nice!
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1550 2013-11-19 20:05:26 * BlueMatt plans on doing a pr push after I get the relay times where I want
1551 2013-11-19 20:06:06 <BlueMatt> (right now inter-node comms are like >1sec for cross-continent links :( )
1552 2013-11-19 20:06:44 <petertodd> BlueMatt: you see my extension of Gronager's analysis to show bandwidth to distribute blocks is around 25KB/sec? yeah...
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1554 2013-11-19 20:07:01 <BlueMatt> well, I obviously do better than that
1555 2013-11-19 20:07:22 <petertodd> BlueMatt: if I'm right, that's better proof than anything else I've seen that miners aren't trying very hard
1556 2013-11-19 20:08:01 <petertodd> BlueMatt: depends - I'm pretty sure that number comes from how many peers nodes tend to have in parallel - should be greatly reduced
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1558 2013-11-19 20:09:48 <BlueMatt> hmm...yea, so even iperf gets me like 2 seconds cross-continent when sending 1MB
1559 2013-11-19 20:09:54 <BlueMatt> so, its really a function of tcp at this point
1560 2013-11-19 20:10:07 <BlueMatt> just means I need to relay txn first and only transfer block headers+tx lists between relay nodes
1561 2013-11-19 20:11:36 <petertodd> BlueMatt: see, my point is even if you don't do any of that optimization at all, there is a tradeoff between relaying depth first and breadth first
1562 2013-11-19 20:12:09 <BlueMatt> didnt they conclude that they were able to drop relay times significantly just by peering with everyone they could?
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1564 2013-11-19 20:12:18 <BlueMatt> yes, if you have a ton of peers
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1567 2013-11-19 20:12:36 <petertodd> BlueMatt: only if you have the bandwidth to simultaneously send blocks to those peers at high speed
1568 2013-11-19 20:12:51 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it's a little borked though, because bitcoind has a 100ms sleep in message processing. So one hop has an average latency of 50ms just from that sleep.
1569 2013-11-19 20:12:55 <BlueMatt> but, yea, I'd think unless you have /tons/ of peers, you can relay all the time...
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1573 2013-11-19 20:13:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: Im measuring bitcoinj -> bitcoinj -> bitcoinj, so no bitcoind sleeps or anything
1574 2013-11-19 20:13:14 <gmaxwell> so I don't know that their measured effects really teach us anything useful.
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1577 2013-11-19 20:13:20 <petertodd> BlueMatt: if you don't, that's where the issue is. also, that 25KB/sec doesn't quite mean what you might think it does - it means in a fully connected network, that would be the average bandwidth
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1579 2013-11-19 20:13:32 <BlueMatt> petertodd: yea, I know
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1581 2013-11-19 20:13:35 <petertodd> BlueMatt: (and I've probably missed a factor of two somewhere)
1582 2013-11-19 20:13:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh
1583 2013-11-19 20:13:48 <BlueMatt> anyway, yea, the network right now is shit
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1586 2013-11-19 20:13:56 <petertodd> heh, we can agree on that
1587 2013-11-19 20:14:01 <BlueMatt> but thats why I made the relay network, and hopefully bitcoind is getting better
1588 2013-11-19 20:14:11 <BlueMatt> relay network is a) a good stopgap, b) a good backup
1589 2013-11-19 20:14:25 <gmaxwell> low hanging fruit is good.
1590 2013-11-19 20:14:39 <BlueMatt> yup
1591 2013-11-19 20:14:45 <petertodd> BlueMatt: what's usage stats on your relay network right now?
1592 2013-11-19 20:14:55 <BlueMatt> petertodd: not particularly much
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1596 2013-11-19 20:15:13 <BlueMatt> it seems to be well-peered and getting blocks very early, but total peers isnt more than 20
1597 2013-11-19 20:15:31 <firepacket> would anyone mind sharing a link explaining this relay network you are discussing?
1598 2013-11-19 20:15:34 * BlueMatt is still looking for an api he can ping to race the relay network against other block holders
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1600 2013-11-19 20:16:27 <BlueMatt> firepacket: this thread: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg03189.html
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1602 2013-11-19 20:16:51 <petertodd> BlueMatt: does it relay orphans?
1603 2013-11-19 20:16:58 <BlueMatt> no
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1605 2013-11-19 20:17:02 <firepacket> BlueMatt: thank you!
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1625 2013-11-19 20:36:01 <petertodd> BlueMatt: so within your relay network, the nodes that make it up are fully connected right?
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1629 2013-11-19 20:38:35 <BlueMatt> petertodd: yes
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1633 2013-11-19 20:39:41 <petertodd> BlueMatt: could you please setup NTP on all of them, and log timestamps for exactly when what blocks are received by each node?
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1635 2013-11-19 20:40:18 <petertodd> BlueMatt: your relay network matches the best-case assumptions in my expected return paper very well
1636 2013-11-19 20:40:33 <BlueMatt> timestamps yes, need to do ntp yet...
1637 2013-11-19 20:40:37 <petertodd> BlueMatt: it'd be useful to get that data and do some analysis
1638 2013-11-19 20:41:01 <BlueMatt> can do, give me some time to get it hacked in
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1641 2013-11-19 20:41:35 <petertodd> BlueMatt: I'm trying to pull that together as a paper for that financial crypto workshop, though it is a nov 24th deadline so I dunno how much I'll have done
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1644 2013-11-19 20:42:34 <BlueMatt> petertodd: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/RelayNode if you want to implement better logging I can send those logs...
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1646 2013-11-19 20:43:25 <BlueMatt> (obv not including the peer that sent the block)
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1649 2013-11-19 20:44:43 <shamoon> might be time to reconsider "dust", eh?
1650 2013-11-19 20:44:48 <shamoon> 5430 satoshi's is almost 5 cents
1651 2013-11-19 20:45:04 <petertodd> BlueMatt: does the LogLine() function include a timestamp?
1652 2013-11-19 20:45:35 <petertodd> shamoon: dust in 0.9 will be floating depending on what fees it takes to get mined
1653 2013-11-19 20:45:45 <BlueMatt> not by default, but one of the calls adds a currentTimeMillis call to the end
1654 2013-11-19 20:45:47 <petertodd> shamoon: but no guarantee that will go up or down
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1656 2013-11-19 20:46:34 <petertodd> BlueMatt: ok, if you just change it to the version with a millisecond-resolution timestamp that's all I need.
1657 2013-11-19 20:47:05 <BlueMatt> petertodd: I think it already logs what you need, though not to a file
1658 2013-11-19 20:47:14 <BlueMatt> to a strange cli that updates and only shows recent liens
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1660 2013-11-19 20:47:52 <petertodd> BlueMatt: ah, yeah just log that to a file and setup NTP and I can derive everything else from that.
1661 2013-11-19 20:48:12 <BlueMatt> go implement ;)
1662 2013-11-19 20:48:27 <petertodd> BlueMatt: lol, I'll outsource it to you, name a price
1663 2013-11-19 20:48:37 <petertodd> BlueMatt: I don't have time to learn java shit :p
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1666 2013-11-19 20:48:47 <BlueMatt> lol, well price is me finding freetime
1667 2013-11-19 20:48:56 <petertodd> BlueMatt: ok, ONE MILLION BITCOINS
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1669 2013-11-19 20:49:01 <BlueMatt> Ill throw it in soon
1670 2013-11-19 20:49:17 <BlueMatt> heh, ok, that works too
1671 2013-11-19 20:49:35 <petertodd> BlueMatt: heh, well, realisticly it's probably not convincing data prior to that nov 24th deadline, although I could probably update things later
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1674 2013-11-19 20:50:44 <petertodd> See, using Gronager's equation I get that we can get break-even fee for negligible hashing power to be 0.1mBTC/KB with 0.1s latency and 500KB/s bandwidth.
1675 2013-11-19 20:50:50 <petertodd> (at 1MB blocks)
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1679 2013-11-19 20:53:12 <phantomcircuit> shamoon, i believe gavin is working on improving the entire fee system
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1681 2013-11-19 20:53:25 <shamoon> awesome
1682 2013-11-19 20:53:42 <petertodd> BlueMatt: and seriously, name a price - I got someone who offered me a small amount of btc to do that analysis
1683 2013-11-19 20:54:08 <BlueMatt> petertodd: I think with good relay code, we can get relay to be essentially free for anyone with a decent 10Mb connection...
1684 2013-11-19 20:54:19 <BlueMatt> petertodd: heh, its like a 10 second project, Ill throw it in when I touch that code again
1685 2013-11-19 20:54:23 <BlueMatt> probably next ~day
1686 2013-11-19 20:54:43 <petertodd> BlueMatt: define "get relay to be essentially free"
1687 2013-11-19 20:55:41 <BlueMatt> ie the marginal cost of including another tx in a block is close enough to 0 to not matter
1688 2013-11-19 20:55:44 <BlueMatt> for some reasonable block-size
1689 2013-11-19 20:55:44 <petertodd> BlueMatt: well, also you're time getting ntp up and collecting the logs, it's a bit more than 10s
1690 2013-11-19 20:55:47 <BlueMatt> or, tx-count
1691 2013-11-19 20:56:01 <BlueMatt> well...ok, either way it doesnt take longer than a half-hour, at max
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1693 2013-11-19 20:56:26 <petertodd> BlueMatt: you can "think you can", I want to know exactly what the equations are :)
1694 2013-11-19 20:56:41 <BlueMatt> meh, its the cost of one more hash on the connection
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1697 2013-11-19 20:57:26 <petertodd> BlueMatt: heh, well, that's where things get really interesting... remember how I showed the perverse incentive to relay to only 30% hashing power
1698 2013-11-19 20:57:35 <BlueMatt> given a reasonable number of hashes, that means a tx is negligible latency...
1699 2013-11-19 20:57:50 <BlueMatt> yes, if you can successfully do that...
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1701 2013-11-19 20:58:08 <sipa> if you are 30%, that's easy :)
1702 2013-11-19 20:58:12 <petertodd> BlueMatt: heh, I make the mistake of assuming "negligible" in my first derivation of those equations and was wondering why everything canceled out
1703 2013-11-19 20:58:35 <petertodd> sipa: indeed
1704 2013-11-19 20:58:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: fair enough
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1706 2013-11-19 21:00:36 <petertodd> sipa: something I want to figure out for sure is if I'm correct that the number is the integral of of hash/s * t - if I am then all you have to do is have some transactions that were never relayed first
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1708 2013-11-19 21:02:32 <Ukto> I use 'accounts' on bitcoind. is there any possible way to get a full list of all transactions from bitcoind for all accounts?
1709 2013-11-19 21:03:19 <sipa> Ukto: listtransactions
1710 2013-11-19 21:04:07 <sipa> Ukto: if necessary, specify '*' as account
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1714 2013-11-19 21:07:39 <objectivec123> Anyone use the bitstamp streaming api? is https://websocket.bitstamp.net:8080/live_trades still valid?
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1757 2013-11-19 21:47:19 <Optimo> jg up next on the panel, right?
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1765 2013-11-19 21:56:53 <gmaxwell> Optimo: JG is just watching as far as I know, unless they changed the schedule.
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1767 2013-11-19 22:00:17 <Optimo> yeah I misunderstood a tweet.
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1795 2013-11-19 22:25:55 <Plarkplark_> dev at work says Bitcoin random feed is not random enough, and will be hacked.
1796 2013-11-19 22:25:59 <Plarkplark_> Any good arugment?
1797 2013-11-19 22:26:29 <gmaxwell> You've not provided any information.
1798 2013-11-19 22:27:06 <Plarkplark_> To quote: "The random number generators are not random enough,not nearing heiserberg levels, and will be hacked"
1799 2013-11-19 22:27:07 <Apocalyptic> I have sent a tx 2 hours ago that doesn't hit the blockchain yet, the client stayed open so I assume the tx has been rebroadcast several times
1800 2013-11-19 22:27:34 <Apocalyptic> any idea where this might come from ?
1801 2013-11-19 22:28:20 <Plarkplark_> Apocalyptic: did you pay fee
1802 2013-11-19 22:28:25 <Apocalyptic> yes
1803 2013-11-19 22:28:30 <Apocalyptic> 0.0001
1804 2013-11-19 22:28:37 <Plarkplark_> tx id?
1805 2013-11-19 22:28:38 <Apocalyptic> but it shoudn't matter for propagation
1806 2013-11-19 22:28:48 <Apocalyptic> 425ca724efd80857cbf8c5b1e6a8b9bc994cd960a547d17cc7b5e226bf39809a
1807 2013-11-19 22:29:11 <Plarkplark_> beyond my skill level, not broadcasts
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1809 2013-11-19 22:29:21 <Plarkplark_> srry
1810 2013-11-19 22:30:56 <Apocalyptic> i also have one unconfirmed for 28 hours but that's another story
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1862 2013-11-19 23:18:57 <super3> hello
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