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7 2013-11-21 00:05:21 <gdoteof> can someone help me figure out why my satoshi client isn't syncing?
8 2013-11-21 00:05:25 <gdoteof> i just put on 8.5
9 2013-11-21 00:05:28 <gdoteof> i have 8 connections
10 2013-11-21 00:05:48 <gdoteof> its stuck at 0 indexed blocks
11 2013-11-21 00:06:14 * warren wonders if there area large number of bad nodes.
12 2013-11-21 00:07:12 <gmaxwell> gdoteof: are you running bitcoind or bitcoin-qt?
13 2013-11-21 00:07:49 <gdoteof> gmaxwell: qt
14 2013-11-21 00:08:10 <gmaxwell> gdoteof: open up the debug console, and run getpeerinfo and pastebin the result
15 2013-11-21 00:09:12 <gmaxwell> warren: do we know if any of the people reporting bitcoin corruption on OSX were running a 64 bit build?
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17 2013-11-21 00:09:39 <sipa> that would be interesting to try
18 2013-11-21 00:09:50 <sipa> iirc leveldb uses more mmap on 64-bit
19 2013-11-21 00:09:55 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: my corruptions were compiled clang 64-bit
20 2013-11-21 00:10:00 <gdoteof> gmaxwell: http://lpaste.net/95954
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22 2013-11-21 00:10:34 <sipa> gdoteof: anything appearing in debug.log ?
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25 2013-11-21 00:11:21 <gdoteof> sipa: yeah it's cranking
26 2013-11-21 00:11:44 <gdoteof> lots of 'stored orphan tx'
27 2013-11-21 00:11:51 <sipa> ignore those
28 2013-11-21 00:12:01 <gdoteof> ERROR: ProcessBlock() : already have block 270576 00000000000000029d1446ea7b59a99e5c5c755c34d1c3b591cc1c8083d37c83
29 2013-11-21 00:12:03 <sipa> anything with the word 'block' in it is interesting
30 2013-11-21 00:12:07 <gmaxwell> gdoteof: what blocks count does your getinfo report?
31 2013-11-21 00:12:08 <sipa> um
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33 2013-11-21 00:12:30 <gmaxwell> gdoteof: in the debug console run getinfo
34 2013-11-21 00:12:30 <gdoteof> gmaxwell: 0
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36 2013-11-21 00:12:42 <gdoteof> i think though as i say this i know what the likely issue is
37 2013-11-21 00:12:44 <sipa> are you running with -datadir ?
38 2013-11-21 00:12:46 <gdoteof> this is an old bitcoin folder
39 2013-11-21 00:12:56 <gdoteof> probably some broken blocks cached in there
40 2013-11-21 00:13:04 <sipa> that shouldn't matter
41 2013-11-21 00:13:38 <gmaxwell> gdoteof: how did you end up with 0? Please tell us all of what you did.
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43 2013-11-21 00:14:08 <gdoteof> gmaxwell: okay it's working now.
44 2013-11-21 00:14:19 <gdoteof> to fix it, i moved my existing .bitcoin folder to a temp dir
45 2013-11-21 00:14:24 <gdoteof> made a new .bitcoin folder
46 2013-11-21 00:14:27 <gdoteof> put my wallet in there
47 2013-11-21 00:14:29 <gdoteof> and started up
48 2013-11-21 00:14:47 <gdoteof> the original folder was really old probably .6 or something
49 2013-11-21 00:15:29 <gdoteof> i suspect i had corrupted/incompatible block db
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51 2013-11-21 00:15:41 <gdoteof> i'm happy to tell you anything about that old folder
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88 2013-11-21 00:47:01 <gdoteof> can i crank up the number of connections i have? this block indexing is barely touching my cpu or network thoroughput
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90 2013-11-21 00:48:05 <pankkake> change maxconnections= in bitcoin.conf
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92 2013-11-21 00:49:56 <gmaxwell> gdoteof: Won't change anything.
93 2013-11-21 00:50:11 <AnonSyn> hello
94 2013-11-21 00:50:11 <sipa> more connections will only slow you down
95 2013-11-21 00:50:29 <sipa> if you want fast syncing, use -connect=ip, with ip the ip address of a known fast peer
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111 2013-11-21 00:58:54 <pankkake> oh if it's about initial sync, download the blockchain torrent https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0
112 2013-11-21 00:59:51 <sipa> for getting up to 250k, that's the fastest way indeed
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119 2013-11-21 01:03:50 <gdoteof> sipa: recommendations on a fast peer?
120 2013-11-21 01:04:52 <gdoteof> oh nm i will dl the torrent
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195 2013-11-21 02:07:28 <justusranvier> What would cause bitcoind to report "connection refused" errors when accessing a Tor proxy that Firefox on the same machine is able to access without any problems at all?
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200 2013-11-21 02:07:59 <Vinnie_win> Can a c++ design whiz help me polish my template-based discrete time peer to peer network simulator?
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229 2013-11-21 02:41:14 <cocaine> ok
230 2013-11-21 02:41:23 <cocaine> are there any msft pinnochio altcoins?
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237 2013-11-21 02:52:26 <Vinnie_win> ok to me?
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276 2013-11-21 03:49:59 <lachesis> hey, i made a txn with 0 fee that hasn't been confirmed. what are my options if it never gets confirmed? does the network forget about unconfirmeds after some time?
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279 2013-11-21 03:55:49 <amiller> cocaine, you mean, based on this short workshop paper? http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/G.Danezis/papers/DanezisFournetKohlweissParno13.pdf
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288 2013-11-21 04:08:28 <Emcy> lachesis yes it forgets
289 2013-11-21 04:08:36 <Emcy> there are no good options for this yet
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291 2013-11-21 04:09:05 <lachesis> Emcy, code reference and/or documentation on this?
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297 2013-11-21 04:10:43 <Emcy> it forgets when the tx drops out of enough mempools
298 2013-11-21 04:10:57 <Emcy> i dont know of docu for it
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363 2013-11-21 05:35:42 <toffoo> hey, do any of the bitcoin-qt versions have a webcam QR code reader built in?
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370 2013-11-21 05:40:24 <BlueMatt> no
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450 2013-11-21 07:33:55 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #469: FAILURE in 11 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/469/
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510 2013-11-21 08:39:08 <zcopley> shit, I need to move my sell orders
511 2013-11-21 08:40:16 <aoeu> what is down?
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539 2013-11-21 09:24:20 <warren> huh.... really 30 minutes since last block?
540 2013-11-21 09:25:36 nomailing has joined
541 2013-11-21 09:25:39 <gmaxwell> ;;tblb 300 seconds
542 2013-11-21 09:25:39 <gribble> (tblb <interval>) -- Calculate the expected time between blocks which take at least <interval> seconds to create. To provide the <interval> argument, a nested 'seconds' command may be helpful.
543 2013-11-21 09:25:43 <gmaxwell> ;;tblb 300
544 2013-11-21 09:25:44 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 5 minutes and 0 seconds to generate is 15 minutes and 37 seconds
545 2013-11-21 09:25:57 <gmaxwell> ;;tblb 1800
546 2013-11-21 09:25:58 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 30 minutes and 0 seconds to generate is 4 hours, 17 minutes, and 55 seconds
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573 2013-11-21 10:20:49 TD[away] is now known as TD
574 2013-11-21 10:24:11 <TD> warren: yep
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595 2013-11-21 11:00:57 <stonecoldpat0> guys, in the bitcoin program, ParseHex() just converts the hex to an integer?
596 2013-11-21 11:01:40 taha has joined
597 2013-11-21 11:01:54 <stonecoldpat0> or is it just changing its format from a string to a vector of characters ?
598 2013-11-21 11:01:57 <gavinandresen> stonecoldpat0: You mean vector<unsigned char> ParseHex(const char* psz); ? Converts hex to binary vector of chars
599 2013-11-21 11:01:58 <stonecoldpat0> (i feel a bit silly asking!)
600 2013-11-21 11:02:05 <stonecoldpat0> ahh ok thank you
601 2013-11-21 11:02:15 <TD> good evening gavin
602 2013-11-21 11:02:22 <gavinandresen> Hey TD
603 2013-11-21 11:02:35 <TD> how's life down under?
604 2013-11-21 11:02:42 <gavinandresen> getting hot
605 2013-11-21 11:03:14 <stonecoldpat0> im jealous, aussie will be nice right now - constant rain in england :/
606 2013-11-21 11:03:27 <gavinandresen> mmm. hot and rainy here in the tropics
607 2013-11-21 11:03:34 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
608 2013-11-21 11:03:47 <gavinandresen> TD: how's life in Europe?
609 2013-11-21 11:04:00 <TD> getting cold
610 2013-11-21 11:04:13 <TD> but not cold enough yet to be nice and wintery :)
611 2013-11-21 11:04:20 <fanquake> stonecoldpat0 I've almost had enough of 50 degree days.. wanna trade?
612 2013-11-21 11:04:24 <TD> it's that unfortunately inbetween stage where there's no sun and no snow
613 2013-11-21 11:04:26 <gavinandresen> that's good programming weather
614 2013-11-21 11:04:36 <TD> tell me about it! been doing too much lately.
615 2013-11-21 11:05:04 <gavinandresen> I need to get into a groove, been constant interruptions recently, both bitcoin-related and personal
616 2013-11-21 11:05:08 <stonecoldpat0> i would happily trade, i've almost had enough of these 4 degree days and the sponteous rain spurts when i want to cycle home
617 2013-11-21 11:05:35 <TD> i've spent a fair bit of time lately talking to the press. the bad news: less time for coding. the good news: they're really starting to pick up on the whole programmable money/contracts idea
618 2013-11-21 11:05:55 <TD> that meme is finally making the leap from IRC and forums to the wider world
619 2013-11-21 11:07:09 <fanquake> gavinandresen Going to watch cricket while it's on in Brisbane?
620 2013-11-21 11:07:32 <gavinandresen> fanquake: maybe if I get insomnia⦠wait, Brisbane⦠so it'll be on during the day....
621 2013-11-21 11:07:33 <stonecoldpat0> my worry is that its catching on too quick atm - too much spotlight, stops people from using it as a currency
622 2013-11-21 11:08:15 <gavinandresen> stonecoldpat0: don't worry, be happy. More attention means more resources dedicated to making it all work, which is all good
623 2013-11-21 11:08:56 <fanquake> gavinandresen Cricket could fix your insomnia⦠it's not for everyone.
624 2013-11-21 11:09:26 <gavinandresen> cricket HAS fixed my insomnia, I watched some of the first Ashes test
625 2013-11-21 11:10:23 <fanquake> haha Don't watch the test matches. Try and find a 20/20 to watch, they don't last 5 days...
626 2013-11-21 11:11:38 * gavinandresen mumbles about that not being REAL cricketâ¦..
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629 2013-11-21 11:13:15 <fanquake> You can't have it both ways :p
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632 2013-11-21 11:18:32 <cocaine> loool
633 2013-11-21 11:18:48 <cocaine> coinlab has alydin ad on the front page
634 2013-11-21 11:18:55 <cocaine> and i just saw an article it went bk
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636 2013-11-21 11:21:16 <bitnumus> sipa, or anyone else, i'm still not able to run bitcoind on ARM, and these are the latest logs (various boards and a week later) > http://pastebin.com/SX3vwr63
637 2013-11-21 11:24:00 <CodeShark> bitnumus: by "not able to run" do you mean the program fails to even load? or do you mean "loads but behaves incorrectly"?
638 2013-11-21 11:24:11 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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640 2013-11-21 11:24:41 <bitnumus> CodeShark, i hoped the log would show, the problem has been with the chain i believe
641 2013-11-21 11:24:56 <CodeShark> have you tried clearing the datadir?
642 2013-11-21 11:25:13 <sipa> CodeShark: he's copying the datadir from another instance
643 2013-11-21 11:25:14 debiantoruser has joined
644 2013-11-21 11:25:17 <bitnumus> CodeShark, i'm copying fresh chain from elsewhere
645 2013-11-21 11:25:19 <sipa> as the RPi is too slow to build it itself
646 2013-11-21 11:25:23 <bitnumus> sipa, i'm nearly done here now
647 2013-11-21 11:25:35 <bitnumus> i've read about levelDB bugs on MAC, maybe its related?
648 2013-11-21 11:25:41 <sipa> i doubt that
649 2013-11-21 11:25:49 <bitnumus> what can you tell me from the log above ?
650 2013-11-21 11:25:49 <CodeShark> the mac problem seems unrelated
651 2013-11-21 11:25:58 <bitnumus> "errors" : "Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."
652 2013-11-21 11:26:10 <sipa> bitnumus: that the chain database seems to miss a transaction output that a new block is trying to spend
653 2013-11-21 11:26:10 <CodeShark> that usually means db corruption of some sort
654 2013-11-21 11:26:13 <sipa> which makes no sense
655 2013-11-21 11:26:13 <bitnumus> i've tried this about 10 times, different builds from myself, others, unstable repos etc
656 2013-11-21 11:26:18 <bitnumus> RPI, beaglebone, cubieboard
657 2013-11-21 11:26:20 SwampTony has joined
658 2013-11-21 11:26:30 <bitnumus> it has to be a bug...
659 2013-11-21 11:26:41 <bitnumus> also a friend has tried exactly the same things, same problem
660 2013-11-21 11:26:43 <sipa> the only thing i can come up with is a bug in leveldb
661 2013-11-21 11:26:50 <sipa> that there is some issue with ARM builds
662 2013-11-21 11:26:56 <bitnumus> i've come this far, can i debug it anyhow ?
663 2013-11-21 11:27:10 <sipa> if you understand the leveldb code, sure
664 2013-11-21 11:27:10 <CodeShark> I'd insert tracers to display the datastructures in a human-readable format
665 2013-11-21 11:27:21 <gmaxwell> unfortunately my arm systems here only have 1.5GB free...
666 2013-11-21 11:27:26 <bitnumus> that would be a no then, so the answer for now is nobody cares about ARM enough
667 2013-11-21 11:27:27 <bitnumus> ?
668 2013-11-21 11:27:31 <gmaxwell> guess I should fix that.
669 2013-11-21 11:27:49 <bitnumus> i've spent 100s trying to get it working :)
670 2013-11-21 11:28:05 <sipa> 100s as in 1m40s?
671 2013-11-21 11:28:08 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: other people have had bitcoin running fine on arm.
672 2013-11-21 11:28:12 <bitnumus> lol
673 2013-11-21 11:28:16 <bitnumus> gmaxwell, who?
674 2013-11-21 11:28:21 <sipa> 100s of BTC? :p
675 2013-11-21 11:28:37 <gmaxwell> bluematt for one, but there are several threads on the forum.
676 2013-11-21 11:28:37 <bitnumus> and, maybe the only way it can be done is downloading the chain directly
677 2013-11-21 11:28:49 <bitnumus> gmaxwell, i've been trying for over a week, i've read every resource
678 2013-11-21 11:28:56 <bitnumus> even spoke to him :P
679 2013-11-21 11:29:30 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: well, it sounds like your database is corrupted in some odd way. have you tried running a reindex on that system?
680 2013-11-21 11:29:49 <sipa> my guess is that it will somehow work when he does
681 2013-11-21 11:30:06 <sipa> that there is some weird incompatibility between leveldb on different systems
682 2013-11-21 11:30:09 <CodeShark> save the reindexed db so you can do a diff :)
683 2013-11-21 11:30:19 <sipa> hmm, your system is little-endian, right?
684 2013-11-21 11:30:38 <gmaxwell> he wouldn't have made it that far if it wasn't. IIRC all current linux on arm is LE.
685 2013-11-21 11:30:57 <gmaxwell> (debian used to have a BE arm build but I don't think that is supported anymore)
686 2013-11-21 11:31:26 <bitnumus> the weird thing, is i took from the logs above that it loaded the DB fine
687 2013-11-21 11:31:33 <sipa> indeed
688 2013-11-21 11:31:33 <bitnumus> 270,000+blocks, and it rescanned the wallet
689 2013-11-21 11:31:50 <bitnumus> but yes, i've tried fresh chains from different distros etc etc
690 2013-11-21 11:31:58 <CodeShark> have you tried tracers and breakpoints?
691 2013-11-21 11:31:58 <bitnumus> it wasnt corrupt when i copied it
692 2013-11-21 11:32:11 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: have you tried running a reindex on that system?
693 2013-11-21 11:32:21 <bitnumus> gmaxwell, we have, but its been 5 days and still going
694 2013-11-21 11:32:28 <bitnumus> and this just isnt an option
695 2013-11-21 11:32:37 drayah has joined
696 2013-11-21 11:32:39 <bitnumus> for testing yes, but not useful after that
697 2013-11-21 11:32:46 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: then get a system thats fast enough to be a viable host.
698 2013-11-21 11:32:59 <bitnumus> gmaxwell, soon the answer will be scrap bitcoind for sure
699 2013-11-21 11:33:11 <bitnumus> we cannot move away from these boards
700 2013-11-21 11:33:17 <sipa> what are you trying to do in the first place?
701 2013-11-21 11:33:19 <bitnumus> specs arent THAT bad
702 2013-11-21 11:33:23 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: I am sorry for your bad decision.
703 2013-11-21 11:33:39 <bitnumus> gmaxwell, we tried electrum prior to this, but at the time the master wasnt stable enough
704 2013-11-21 11:33:43 <bitnumus> and 1.8 didnt have features we needed
705 2013-11-21 11:33:44 <gmaxwell> The Rpi? They're rubbish, they're about 1/32nd the speed of an odroid, plus they're unreliable.
706 2013-11-21 11:33:49 <bitnumus> looking at bitcoinj today
707 2013-11-21 11:33:58 <bitnumus> i have beaglebone
708 2013-11-21 11:34:00 <bitnumus> its not too bad
709 2013-11-21 11:34:00 <sipa> bitnumus: well what are you trying to do?
710 2013-11-21 11:34:06 <bitnumus> sipa, accept payments!
711 2013-11-21 11:34:27 <gmaxwell> on a beaglebone by running a full node on it?
712 2013-11-21 11:34:40 <bitnumus> gmaxwell, what other option is there on a bealgebone ?
713 2013-11-21 11:34:54 <CodeShark> headers-only
714 2013-11-21 11:34:56 <bitnumus> i know its not the best idea, but i had to give it a shot, there arent other options
715 2013-11-21 11:35:31 <gmaxwell> in any case, the reindex is a one time operation. I'm not sure why you think copying from some x86 system is okay but a one time reindex is unaccetable. Regardless, I'd be worried about the long term survivablity of such a setup.
716 2013-11-21 11:35:36 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: bitcoinj
717 2013-11-21 11:35:45 <bitnumus> <bitnumus> looking at bitcoinj today
718 2013-11-21 11:35:54 <sipa> (if you want to trust accepting payments without validating transactions...)
719 2013-11-21 11:36:03 <bitnumus> about copying from other architectures, others here said it should be fine
720 2013-11-21 11:36:11 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
721 2013-11-21 11:36:22 <sipa> "should be" isn't "is"
722 2013-11-21 11:36:35 <sipa> i'
723 2013-11-21 11:36:36 <bitnumus> ok, seems this is the end of the road then
724 2013-11-21 11:36:42 <gmaxwell> You are using hardware substantially less powerful than a modern smartphone, and expecting it to be a full equal in a distributed cryptocurrency is probably expecting too much.
725 2013-11-21 11:36:43 <sipa> i've heard about strange things on ARM before
726 2013-11-21 11:36:47 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
727 2013-11-21 11:36:48 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #470: FIXED in 44 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/470/
728 2013-11-21 11:36:48 <bitnumus> will see how bitcoinj pans out, doesnt it support sendtomany ?
729 2013-11-21 11:36:51 <CodeShark> I wouldn't waste any more time on trying to run bitcoind on this processor - seems quixotic
730 2013-11-21 11:37:10 <bitnumus> does*
731 2013-11-21 11:37:28 <CodeShark> that's sending payments, not accepting them :)
732 2013-11-21 11:37:30 profreid has quit (Quit: profreid)
733 2013-11-21 11:37:33 <gmaxwell> sipa: :P 11:35 < gmaxwell> sipa: I wasn't of the belief that leveldb files were very portable between systems, I thought they didn't work between x86_64 and x86, for example, though someone was recently telling me it did.
734 2013-11-21 11:37:37 <bitnumus> CodeShark, ok i need to do both! :D
735 2013-11-21 11:37:42 <CodeShark> sending payments requires far less computational resources
736 2013-11-21 11:37:44 skinnkavaj has joined
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739 2013-11-21 11:37:59 <bitnumus> gmaxwell, you were both debating, i don't know who would be right its over my head if i'm honest ;)
740 2013-11-21 11:38:11 <bitnumus> i remember you saying this and its been in the back of my mind
741 2013-11-21 11:38:34 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: I still don't quite understand why copying from another system is acceptable but a one time reindex on arm is not.
742 2013-11-21 11:38:49 <gmaxwell> (though I think that running bitcoind on that hardware is inadvisable regardless)
743 2013-11-21 11:38:52 <bitnumus> it just wouldnt be a one time index
744 2013-11-21 11:38:58 <bitnumus> so dont worry, its not possible and we'll move on
745 2013-11-21 11:39:10 <bitnumus> thanks!
746 2013-11-21 11:39:18 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: why wouldn't it be? why is it different to copy it from another arm system than it is to copy it from an x86 system?
747 2013-11-21 11:39:35 <bitnumus> various reasons i dont feel the point of going into
748 2013-11-21 11:40:33 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
749 2013-11-21 11:41:17 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: I hope SPV security is appropriate for whatever you're doing.
750 2013-11-21 11:41:20 johnsoft has joined
751 2013-11-21 11:41:46 <bitnumus> gmaxwell, yet again there isnt another choice at this point in time, hopefully things will evolve fast
752 2013-11-21 11:42:23 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: there will never be a way to sustainably run a full security node on such limited hardware.
753 2013-11-21 11:42:29 tri0nz has joined
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755 2013-11-21 11:42:50 <TD> bitnumus: run a full node on a server you own, and connect your limited hardware to it with an spv client
756 2013-11-21 11:43:13 <CodeShark> unfortunately, the bitcoin protocol as it exists requires either complex client logic/computational resources, trusting others' servers, or running your own servers
757 2013-11-21 11:43:28 <bitnumus> TD yes thats fine, lets hope bitcoinj does what i need!
758 2013-11-21 11:43:37 <bitnumus> electrum didnt
759 2013-11-21 11:43:54 <gmaxwell> bitcoinj is more of a meta client, with enought thrust it can do anything.
760 2013-11-21 11:44:06 <stonecoldpat0> i dont get why you would want to run a full secure node on v limited hardware... would take forever to validate your own transactions never mind other peoples
761 2013-11-21 11:44:20 agorist has joined
762 2013-11-21 11:44:24 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: what was electrum missing?
763 2013-11-21 11:44:27 <TD> bitnumus: ok. an spv client connected only to a trusted node, has equivalent security to that trusted node.
764 2013-11-21 11:44:38 <bitnumus> gmaxwell, sendtomany, this was implemented in 1.9 but 1.9 wasnt stable at all
765 2013-11-21 11:44:40 <TD> bitnumus: but then i wonder why you need the limited hardware :)
766 2013-11-21 11:44:44 <CodeShark> spv client connected to a trusted node is my current enterprise model
767 2013-11-21 11:45:40 msvb-lab has joined
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769 2013-11-21 11:46:47 <bitnumus> thanks all, very valuable stuff
770 2013-11-21 11:47:00 _ingsoc_ has joined
771 2013-11-21 11:47:19 * gmaxwell adds adding storage to his pandaboards to his todo
772 2013-11-21 11:48:26 <CodeShark> if it were as easy to prove absence of spends using SPV as it is to prove presence of spends, SPV would be at least a tad bit more secure
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782 2013-11-21 11:57:16 <UukGoblin> hi, any ECDSA gurus around here? I'm wondering what vanitygen does to avoid doing an EC point multiplication in each iteration... What's this make_affine stuff about? where could I read up about it?
783 2013-11-21 11:58:52 <CodeShark> you can continue adding the generator over and over again to produce a new public key each time, it's equivalent to incrementing the private key by one
784 2013-11-21 11:59:07 <CodeShark> or you can add multiples of the generator
785 2013-11-21 11:59:10 Anduckkk has joined
786 2013-11-21 11:59:52 <UukGoblin> ah...
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788 2013-11-21 12:00:26 <UukGoblin> the generator is a well-known number, right? some constant set for the entire ECDSA algorithm
789 2013-11-21 12:00:30 <CodeShark> indeed
790 2013-11-21 12:00:44 <UukGoblin> cool, that makes sense, many thanks! :-)
791 2013-11-21 12:00:51 <CodeShark> to be precise, it's a point, not a number
792 2013-11-21 12:01:01 <UukGoblin> cool
793 2013-11-21 12:01:30 <CodeShark> to be very precise, not a scalar (although perhaps a number by some definition)
794 2013-11-21 12:01:36 <CodeShark> :p
795 2013-11-21 12:01:55 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
796 2013-11-21 12:01:56 <UukGoblin> ;-)
797 2013-11-21 12:02:03 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
798 2013-11-21 12:02:12 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
799 2013-11-21 12:02:24 <UukGoblin> I'm guessing a point on a linear curve... can probably be represented by just one number... somehow
800 2013-11-21 12:02:27 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
801 2013-11-21 12:02:36 <UukGoblin> two numbers would definitely be sufficient
802 2013-11-21 12:03:02 <CodeShark> in a cantor sense the two sets have the same cardinality
803 2013-11-21 12:03:09 <CodeShark> at least in the case of real curves
804 2013-11-21 12:03:37 Anduckkk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
805 2013-11-21 12:03:40 <CodeShark> and in the case of finite sets, there's always a map between a subset of the integers and the set
806 2013-11-21 12:04:04 rdymac has joined
807 2013-11-21 12:04:35 <UukGoblin> yes... I meant something like that :-)
808 2013-11-21 12:04:56 <UukGoblin> well, it's not a finite set
809 2013-11-21 12:05:08 <CodeShark> it is in the case of ECDSA
810 2013-11-21 12:05:08 <UukGoblin> but I think a map can still be devised... if not to integers then to reals
811 2013-11-21 12:05:15 <UukGoblin> oh
812 2013-11-21 12:05:22 <UukGoblin> ah, because ECDSA operates on ints... fair enough
813 2013-11-21 12:05:40 <CodeShark> yes, it's over a prime field
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817 2013-11-21 12:06:48 <CodeShark> or at least secp256k1 is over a prime field
818 2013-11-21 12:06:56 <CodeShark> ECDSA over binary fields is also used
819 2013-11-21 12:07:21 <CodeShark> but not by bitcoin :)
820 2013-11-21 12:07:55 <UukGoblin> aha, secp256k1 is a useful google keyword :-)
821 2013-11-21 12:08:08 <UukGoblin> all the constants are here! :-) thanks
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845 2013-11-21 12:43:07 * Bituser123 hello
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890 2013-11-21 14:06:08 daybyter has joined
891 2013-11-21 14:06:09 <TD> there is now a #bitcoinj IRC channel
892 2013-11-21 14:07:35 bmcgee has joined
893 2013-11-21 14:07:58 <stonecoldpat0> this will sound v silly - but how is openssl compiled into the bitcoin sourcecode?
894 2013-11-21 14:08:11 <stonecoldpat0> i notice references to it #include <openssl> but i cant seem to find it
895 2013-11-21 14:08:44 <sipa> it's a system library
896 2013-11-21 14:08:50 <sipa> it uses whatever exists on your system
897 2013-11-21 14:09:21 profreid has quit (Read error: No route to host)
898 2013-11-21 14:09:34 <stonecoldpat0> I see, so is openssl included with windows as default?
899 2013-11-21 14:09:48 <sipa> windows is always strange
900 2013-11-21 14:10:01 <sipa> i think there we statically link an openssl build
901 2013-11-21 14:10:18 <sipa> check the build scripts in gitian-descriptors
902 2013-11-21 14:11:29 <stonecoldpat0> from the comments - it seems to wget openssl so it must download the latest version then
903 2013-11-21 14:12:31 cocaine has left ()
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905 2013-11-21 14:14:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|16:07:00 <sipa> i think there we statically link an openssl build
906 2013-11-21 14:14:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That's correct, I believe.
907 2013-11-21 14:15:34 <sipa> stonecoldpat0: the correct conclusion from that code is that it uses whatever openssl exists in your build environment, and one must be present
908 2013-11-21 14:18:41 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
909 2013-11-21 14:18:47 <stonecoldpat0> thanks :)
910 2013-11-21 14:19:26 rebroad has joined
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912 2013-11-21 14:21:12 <rebroad> how do I find out a complete list of commands that gribble knows please?
913 2013-11-21 14:21:23 <sipa> ;;help
914 2013-11-21 14:21:23 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
915 2013-11-21 14:24:08 macboz has joined
916 2013-11-21 14:24:53 <Emcy> issnt not packing in a known openssl on every platform rather dangerous
917 2013-11-21 14:24:58 Sylla has joined
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919 2013-11-21 14:27:06 <helo> potentially
920 2013-11-21 14:27:26 agricocb has joined
921 2013-11-21 14:28:24 <Emcy> also i thought deterministic builds were the new hotness
922 2013-11-21 14:28:27 ericmuyser has joined
923 2013-11-21 14:28:30 da2ce7_laptop has joined
924 2013-11-21 14:28:36 <helo> the issue has received some attention, so it is probably safe enough in a practical sense
925 2013-11-21 14:28:44 macboz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
926 2013-11-21 14:29:02 <sipa> there are argument for and against
927 2013-11-21 14:29:11 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
928 2013-11-21 14:29:18 <sipa> for is that openssl is rather security critical, and you may want to get uatomatic bugfixes provided by your OS
929 2013-11-21 14:29:51 <Emcy> but we need the bugs......
930 2013-11-21 14:30:01 <sipa> depends for what
931 2013-11-21 14:30:12 <sipa> for consensus-critical code, we may
932 2013-11-21 14:30:36 <Emcy> is it used for walley crypto too
933 2013-11-21 14:30:42 <gmaxwell> "CVE-2014-0666: OpenSSL accepting invalid DER encodings"
934 2013-11-21 14:30:46 da2ce7_laptop has quit (Client Quit)
935 2013-11-21 14:30:47 sois has quit (Quit: sois)
936 2013-11-21 14:31:09 <sipa> hopefully we don't rely on openssl for consensus-critical paths by then anymore...
937 2013-11-21 14:31:37 <Emcy> what else is there?
938 2013-11-21 14:31:41 macboz has joined
939 2013-11-21 14:31:59 <gmaxwell> SSL.
940 2013-11-21 14:32:10 <sipa> we use openssl for hashing, wallet encryption, wallet signing, rpc ssl, ... and blockchain validation
941 2013-11-21 14:32:20 <sipa> for that last thing, we may want to retain bugs in some cases
942 2013-11-21 14:32:21 <gmaxwell> We have ssl support in two places, for the RPC and for the payment protocol.
943 2013-11-21 14:32:23 <Emcy> is SSL. another lib?
944 2013-11-21 14:33:33 macboz has quit (Client Quit)
945 2013-11-21 14:34:06 <Emcy> sorry maybe im derpin
946 2013-11-21 14:35:55 <Emcy> thats what i get for playing planetside 2 all night instad of sleep
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953 2013-11-21 14:42:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rebroad:
954 2013-11-21 14:42:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;list
955 2013-11-21 14:42:06 <gribble> Admin, Alias, Anonymous, AutoMode, BadWords, BitcoinData, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Conditional, Config, Debug, Dict, Dunno, Factoids, Filter, Format, GPG, Games, Gatekeeper, Google, Internet, Later, Market, Math, MessageParser, Misc, Network, OTCOrderBook, Owner, Plugin, RSS, RatingSystem, Reply, Scheduler, Seen, Services, Status, String, Time, Topic, URL, Unix, User, (1 more message)
956 2013-11-21 14:42:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;more
957 2013-11-21 14:42:12 <gribble> Utilities, and Web
958 2013-11-21 14:42:21 meLon has quit (Client Quit)
959 2013-11-21 14:42:45 meLon has joined
960 2013-11-21 14:42:46 Deefjuh has quit (work!~soulslaye@62-177-176-74.dsl.bbeyond.nl|)
961 2013-11-21 14:42:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Those are subsections (not sure what they're actually called -- modules maybe?)
962 2013-11-21 14:43:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|From there, you can ,,(list gpg)
963 2013-11-21 14:43:23 <gribble> auth, bcauth, bcregister, bcverify, changeaddress, changekey, eauth, echangekey, eregister, everify, ident, info, register, stats, unauth, and verify
964 2013-11-21 14:43:49 drayah has joined
965 2013-11-21 14:44:50 <TD> this looks totally wrong to me: http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/chart/nodes/
966 2013-11-21 14:45:11 <TD> oh, it's measuring all nodes that broadcast their IP, not reachable nodes
967 2013-11-21 14:45:28 <TD> i guess that could be possible. especially if it does a single run every day and is looking at "all nodes seen in last 3 months"
968 2013-11-21 14:45:58 <sipa> i see 5.3k well-reachable nodes now
969 2013-11-21 14:46:04 <TD> wow. france gets its ass kicked by germany
970 2013-11-21 14:46:21 <TD> the map of europe is basically a map of "high population tech savvy countries"
971 2013-11-21 14:46:31 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
972 2013-11-21 14:46:45 Coincidental has joined
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974 2013-11-21 14:46:59 SwampTony has joined
975 2013-11-21 14:47:09 <TD> nice map though
976 2013-11-21 14:47:10 <TD> http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/
977 2013-11-21 14:47:35 <TD> sipa: yeah their site more or less agrees with you. "seed nodes" 4531
978 2013-11-21 14:47:59 <TD> though it says "nodes acknowledged with version message" 11,666
979 2013-11-21 14:48:04 <TD> not sure what that means.
980 2013-11-21 14:48:47 <TD> their graph is shooting upwards though. not sure if that reflects a real increase in users or whether that's some kind of academic experiment
981 2013-11-21 14:49:07 agnostic98 has joined
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983 2013-11-21 14:49:18 <sipa> TD: had to say hi to you from cdecker, who was also at the zurich meetup yesterday :)
984 2013-11-21 14:49:29 <TD> oh cool. i forgot about the meetup, damn
985 2013-11-21 14:49:34 <TD> i could have gone last night. oh well.
986 2013-11-21 14:49:35 <TD> next time
987 2013-11-21 14:49:55 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
988 2013-11-21 14:50:56 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
989 2013-11-21 14:51:11 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
990 2013-11-21 14:51:21 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
991 2013-11-21 14:51:38 <TD> the massive disparity between seed nodes and total nodes announced makes me think there are still lots of users running bitcoin-qt to be a standalone wallet, behind NATs
992 2013-11-21 14:53:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How hard would it be to detect a change of external IP address and trigger rediscovery?
993 2013-11-21 14:53:56 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
994 2013-11-21 14:55:16 rdymac has joined
995 2013-11-21 14:55:57 <wumpus> I guess you could detect it when peers you connect to suddenly consistently start reporting a different IP for you
996 2013-11-21 14:56:36 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: we rediscover if you use upnp.
997 2013-11-21 14:57:12 <gmaxwell> I also note that the patch I have that changes how announcements work also largely moots the need to rediscover.
998 2013-11-21 14:57:23 <wumpus> right, #3088?
999 2013-11-21 15:00:42 <gmaxwell> TD: if the numbers are right, we're out of sockets.
1000 2013-11-21 15:00:57 <rebroad> so.. as more as more people are using bitcoin for payments (e.g. cafes, bars, etc), surely we're reaching a point where the block size isn't large enough to accommodate them all. e.g. just the other day I was asked by a cafe how they can receive bitcoins payments from their customers... what is the best advice/recommendation to give these days, allowing for the future likeliness that they won't be able to receive bitcoin directly for services?
1001 2013-11-21 15:01:02 SwampTony has joined
1002 2013-11-21 15:01:21 <gmaxwell> 200000 * 8 > 12000 * 125
1003 2013-11-21 15:01:23 <TD> it'd be good if nodes could report some more stats about themselves, so they could be crawled and gathered
1004 2013-11-21 15:01:38 <TD> gmaxwell: yeah but it's not 200,000 simultaneously.
1005 2013-11-21 15:01:47 <TD> gmaxwell: these stats are gathered from addr broadcasts which hang around long after the nodes have gone
1006 2013-11-21 15:01:55 <gmaxwell> I know.
1007 2013-11-21 15:02:02 <TD> rebroad: they will be able to receive bitcoins directly.
1008 2013-11-21 15:02:58 <sipa> (^ controversial opinion)
1009 2013-11-21 15:03:03 <rebroad> TD, eventually not though, right? because there will be too much competition for transactions to go into blocks, so not everyone will get in. how many transactions can a block hold? it's a finite number isn't it? therefore, eventually it will be exceeded if bitcoin becomes popular enough.
1010 2013-11-21 15:03:43 <TD> er
1011 2013-11-21 15:03:46 <TD> logic failure
1012 2013-11-21 15:03:55 <TD> "if bitcoin becomes popular" != "infinite demand"
1013 2013-11-21 15:04:09 <TD> basically fees will reflect the competition for block space
1014 2013-11-21 15:04:13 <sipa> demand depends on price, and price will depend on available space
1015 2013-11-21 15:04:44 <TD> a block is just a data structure. there's no particular reason its size has to be finite, other than computers can't hold or transmit infinite data.
1016 2013-11-21 15:05:00 <sipa> well there is a current hard rule that limits their size
1017 2013-11-21 15:05:02 <TD> at the moment bitcoin is kind of broken because gavin is determined to sit on his hands and do nothing, but miners don't realise that
1018 2013-11-21 15:05:12 <TD> so they aren't learning about the defaults or system management
1019 2013-11-21 15:05:37 <TD> and there's no documentation for them anyway
1020 2013-11-21 15:05:41 <sipa> and yes, the current limit is set by miners not changing defaults
1021 2013-11-21 15:06:50 <rebroad> no one is saying anything about infinite demand
1022 2013-11-21 15:07:10 <rebroad> at some point demand will/might become greater than the amount of transactions that can fit in a block
1023 2013-11-21 15:07:13 ThomasV has joined
1024 2013-11-21 15:07:14 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1025 2013-11-21 15:07:27 <TD> define "fit". the only limits on block sizes are ones we choose to impose upon ourselves today.
1026 2013-11-21 15:07:33 <TD> if the blocks need to get bigger, they'll be made bigger
1027 2013-11-21 15:07:35 <rebroad> when that happens it will cease to be an option to accept bitcoin for some merchants. the price of a transaction is irrelevant
1028 2013-11-21 15:07:53 <rebroad> TD, no, the limit of a blocksize is part of the protocol that defines bitcoin
1029 2013-11-21 15:08:14 <TD> yes, and that protocol can and will be changed.
1030 2013-11-21 15:08:25 <rebroad> TD, no, it cannot. it will not be bitcoin then, it will be an alt coin
1031 2013-11-21 15:08:26 <TD> believe me. i know how the protocol works. we've been around this debate a million times.
1032 2013-11-21 15:08:37 <TD> you realize that the rules have been changed many times throughout bitcoin's history, right?
1033 2013-11-21 15:08:49 <TD> satoshi himself changed the rules in hard forking ways quite a few times in the early days. it was still bitcoin.
1034 2013-11-21 15:08:56 <sipa> not afaik
1035 2013-11-21 15:09:00 <sipa> only soft forks :)
1036 2013-11-21 15:09:11 <gmaxwell> They've never been hardforking changed, unless you count the database inconsistency thing. (its debatable if that counts, since there are still running 0.7 nodes)
1037 2013-11-21 15:09:11 <TD> they were hard forks.
1038 2013-11-21 15:09:32 <TD> heck the imposition of the 1mb limit at the start was a hard forking change, as was disabling many of the script opcodes
1039 2013-11-21 15:09:38 <sipa> eh, no
1040 2013-11-21 15:09:43 <sipa> those were all soft forks
1041 2013-11-21 15:09:44 <gmaxwell> TD: you can happily start a 0.3.10 node and get it onto the network, with an addnode. I had one running until a few months ago.
1042 2013-11-21 15:09:53 <TD> i'm going way back before 0.3.10
1043 2013-11-21 15:10:21 <sipa> maybe very very early on there were hard forks, and i'm sure satoshi was of the opinion that they were fine
1044 2013-11-21 15:10:23 <TD> sipa: no they weren't. satoshi had no concept of a "soft fork" (and neither do i, i think this concept is nonsense). there were only rule changes, and nodes that would reject blocks if they didn't follow the rules.
1045 2013-11-21 15:10:32 <sipa> but none of the big changes that i know of actually were
1046 2013-11-21 15:10:32 <gmaxwell> even going back to the start, you could bring up the very first versions with just a protocol bridge for the version hash.
1047 2013-11-21 15:10:34 <TD> like disabling script opcodes. that was a hard fork.
1048 2013-11-21 15:10:50 <sipa> ... no
1049 2013-11-21 15:10:53 <gmaxwell> TD: it wasn't. Enabling them would have been.
1050 2013-11-21 15:11:08 <rebroad> so, my question is, what was bitcoin designed for, because it certainly doesn't seem like it was designed for merchants to accept payments for services...
1051 2013-11-21 15:11:17 <TD> .....
1052 2013-11-21 15:11:24 <TD> was the definition of hard fork changed behind my back?
1053 2013-11-21 15:11:29 jakov has joined
1054 2013-11-21 15:11:41 <sipa> a soft fork is a change that only requires miner consensus
1055 2013-11-21 15:11:42 <rebroad> TD, maybe the definition of hard fork was hard forked...
1056 2013-11-21 15:11:48 <TD> if you didn't upgrade, and someone used a disabled opcode, you'd be forked onto a shorter chain and fall behind the rest of the consensus
1057 2013-11-21 15:12:07 <gmaxwell> No, that isn't the case. :(
1058 2013-11-21 15:12:12 <sipa> no, not as long as the majority chain didn't accept your old data
1059 2013-11-21 15:12:39 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
1060 2013-11-21 15:12:42 <sipa> disabling things that were previously allowed is by definition a soft fork, as old nodes just keep working
1061 2013-11-21 15:12:47 <gmaxwell> A soft fork only denies things that the old nodes accepted. So long as a majority of hashpower is applying the soft fork, all nodeâ pre and post updateâ are happy.
1062 2013-11-21 15:12:53 <sipa> (with, admittedly, a lower security level)
1063 2013-11-21 15:13:13 aliffia has left ()
1064 2013-11-21 15:13:16 <TD> i think this whole notion of different kinds of forks is not useful. you can't claim something "works" if it's no longer providing the security guarantees the user expects it to.
1065 2013-11-21 15:13:25 <sipa> fair enough
1066 2013-11-21 15:13:27 <gmaxwell> A hard fork permits something existing nodes rejected. It doesn't matter how much hashpower is on a hard fork, your unupdated node will reject it.
1067 2013-11-21 15:13:55 <sipa> but it's how we've always used these terms; you can argue whether they're a good or a bad thing, but the distinction is clear
1068 2013-11-21 15:14:08 Belxjander has joined
1069 2013-11-21 15:14:12 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1070 2013-11-21 15:14:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|17:09:46 <gmaxwell> A soft fork only denies things that the old nodes accepted. So long as a majority of hashpower is applying the soft fork, all nodeâ pre and post updateâ are happy.
1071 2013-11-21 15:14:31 <gmaxwell> TD: A feature added in soft-fork is at worst SPV security. In practice it becomes the same security as nodes update to enforce the new rule.
1072 2013-11-21 15:14:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|FSVO happy
1073 2013-11-21 15:14:49 agorist has joined
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1075 2013-11-21 15:14:54 <rebroad> my other question is, when will it happen that we'll see merchants struggling to receive their transactions in a timely fashion. I'm already noticing that it's taking 2 hours or so to receive bitcoins of 17 btc from mtgox, and 30 minutes to receive 200 BTC from mtgox...
1076 2013-11-21 15:15:11 <TD> alright, then when satoshi added the second meaning of nLockTime , i guess that was a hard fork
1077 2013-11-21 15:15:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The network may reject transactions created by the old nodes, for example
1078 2013-11-21 15:15:33 <TD> anyway, my point is, the rules have been changed in the past. they can be changed and bitcoin would not suddenly have to be renamed.
1079 2013-11-21 15:16:03 <sipa> agree, as long as there is extremely wide consensus and there are no known reasons why people would object to the change
1080 2013-11-21 15:16:05 <rebroad> TD, well, you're right.. in a way the blocksize was already changed back in March and changed back when the hard fork was noticed..
1081 2013-11-21 15:16:20 <rebroad> TD, but it was changed back because many main players hadn't moved over to the new fork.
1082 2013-11-21 15:16:20 <gmaxwell> rebroad: thats a misunderstanding.
1083 2013-11-21 15:16:25 <TD> the integer overflow bug was also one
1084 2013-11-21 15:16:36 <gmaxwell> TD: another soft forking change.
1085 2013-11-21 15:16:42 <sipa> what was the previous nlocktime behaviour?
1086 2013-11-21 15:16:45 xiangfu has joined
1087 2013-11-21 15:16:51 <rebroad> gmaxwell, what is a misunderstanding?
1088 2013-11-21 15:16:59 <TD> you could only specify in terms of height (or time, i forget which). the second meaning was added after 0.1
1089 2013-11-21 15:17:22 <sipa> depending on which, that may have been a hard fork indeed then
1090 2013-11-21 15:17:32 <gmaxwell> rebroad: that the block size limit was changed, it wasn't. pre 0.8 nodes were unreliable with blocks that modified many transactions (which also had to be large)
1091 2013-11-21 15:17:46 yubrew has joined
1092 2013-11-21 15:17:59 <sipa> in any case, i agree satoshi probably didn't care about the distinction, and considered hard forks (as what we call them now) fine
1093 2013-11-21 15:18:00 <gmaxwell> TD: IIRC it was added so that the new values were all in the far past and so were valid.
1094 2013-11-21 15:18:11 <rebroad> gmaxwell, ok, but it was a hard fork though, nevertheless?
1095 2013-11-21 15:18:31 kinglet has joined
1096 2013-11-21 15:18:33 <TD> well, regardless, this is a rather irrelevant question. there's no reason we can't hard fork. and we obviously will. the limit won't stay 1mb forever.
1097 2013-11-21 15:18:35 <gmaxwell> rebroad: quasi-hardfork. As I said before, there are still unmodified 0.7 nodes running that happened to have survived.
1098 2013-11-21 15:18:35 jgarzik_ has joined
1099 2013-11-21 15:18:43 <sipa> rebroad: the only hardfork ever was the rule to drop support for 0.7 without changes
1100 2013-11-21 15:18:49 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1101 2013-11-21 15:18:49 <sipa> (in recent history)
1102 2013-11-21 15:19:46 jaakkos has quit (Changing host)
1103 2013-11-21 15:19:46 jaakkos has joined
1104 2013-11-21 15:19:52 <jaakkos> are there reputable hardware cryptomodules that can sign bitcoin transactions?
1105 2013-11-21 15:19:52 <rebroad> hmmm.. so, it's basically agreeed upon and decided by the main bitcoin players that there will at some point be a hard fork to allow for greater block sizes?
1106 2013-11-21 15:20:00 <sipa> rebroad: maybe
1107 2013-11-21 15:20:04 <jaakkos> preferably from a company that has "nothing" to do with bitcoin
1108 2013-11-21 15:20:21 <gmaxwell> rebroad: at some point is a pretty broad question.
1109 2013-11-21 15:20:32 <TD> rebroad: gavin is planning to write up a white paper on all of this and tackle it at some point next year
1110 2013-11-21 15:21:06 ericmuyser has joined
1111 2013-11-21 15:21:13 <rebroad> I was reading about the history of money in the UK.. apparently the first note ever produced was a 5 pound note... but back then that was the average annual salary and it was only used to transfer money between banks, not people... perhaps bitcoin was designed for this, transferring money between banks rather than people, and instead people will use promisary notes backed by bitcions..?
1112 2013-11-21 15:21:35 <TD> bitcoin was not designed to be like that, no. satoshi said so himself.
1113 2013-11-21 15:21:42 <gmaxwell> rebroad: there isn't a need to do anything as kludgy as promisary notes in any case.
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1116 2013-11-21 15:22:31 <gmaxwell> rebroad: there are many ways to have payments in bitcoin without all the transactions directly ending up on the chain, but without outright trusting single parties.
1117 2013-11-21 15:22:50 <rebroad> or maybe there is a way to reduce transactions overall, e.g. mtgox tokens (or whatever their called).. i.e. exchanges/banks can issue something of value equivalent to bitcoin which are transacted instead of the bitcoins..
1118 2013-11-21 15:23:07 <rebroad> gmaxwell, ah.. yes, this I'm interested in understanding better.
1119 2013-11-21 15:23:37 <rebroad> gmaxwell, and I'd like to better understand what to recommend to merchants so that they are future-proofed.
1120 2013-11-21 15:24:40 <gmaxwell> E.g. micropayment channels can drastically reduce transaction counts. Things like https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=321085.0 for _offline_ _instant_ _anonymous_ value exchange, more traditional payment systems but distributed signing authority and cryptographic fraud proofing, etc. But these things are mostly technology parts. Today the demand doesn't exist to build and mature them, or its just starting to.
1121 2013-11-21 15:24:46 <rebroad> I would prefer to see bitcoin sustainable rather than it become devalued by an alt coin taking over.
1122 2013-11-21 15:25:13 <TD> just tell merchants to accept bitcoin as normal
1123 2013-11-21 15:25:54 <rebroad> there's a normal?
1124 2013-11-21 15:25:57 <gmaxwell> as TD says there is nothing special to tell merchants today. Though none of them will actually handle bitcoin themselves already. They'll just use some crazy centeralized service, I've seen it over and over again.
1125 2013-11-21 15:26:08 <TD> rebroad: depends on what kind of merchant they are
1126 2013-11-21 15:26:19 <TD> bitpay for web sites, for local shops i'd suggest they use an android phone or tablet
1127 2013-11-21 15:26:22 <rebroad> no, I'm not recommending that. I'm recommending they handle the bitcoins themselves.
1128 2013-11-21 15:26:33 Xoe has joined
1129 2013-11-21 15:26:46 <TD> at the moment there's no good documentation for how to accept bitcoins over the web with a local bitcoind (i mean, there might be a few wiki pages but they're hard to find)
1130 2013-11-21 15:26:47 <rebroad> with payments going directly to cold wallets
1131 2013-11-21 15:26:55 <TD> oh, well, that makes it even harder.
1132 2013-11-21 15:27:23 <rebroad> it seems electrum is the best way to create offline wallet and online watch-only wallets from my reading on the subject
1133 2013-11-21 15:28:08 SwampTony has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1134 2013-11-21 15:28:15 Xoe_ has joined
1135 2013-11-21 15:28:31 <TD> there's a ton of work needed to reduce the communities dependence on bitpay and other payment processors, unfortunately
1136 2013-11-21 15:28:39 <sipa> yup
1137 2013-11-21 15:28:49 SwampTony has joined
1138 2013-11-21 15:28:59 <rebroad> yes... well.. just some documentation would help in this respect..
1139 2013-11-21 15:29:05 <gmaxwell> There is a major skills set mismatch. The web developers creating infrastructure for merchants are familar with a services model that things like bitpay or coinbase provide.
1140 2013-11-21 15:29:06 BTCUser has joined
1141 2013-11-21 15:29:11 <TD> we need docs, tools, example sites ....
1142 2013-11-21 15:29:15 <rebroad> and perhaps some minor changes to existing clients, like multibit, etc
1143 2013-11-21 15:29:18 <kjj> so, is "invalid signature" kinda the go-to error message on blockchain.info's pushtx tool?
1144 2013-11-21 15:29:41 <TD> gmaxwell: yeah. i'd be tempted to make a standalone web server that provides a "redirect there and back again" type API, even if it's all within the context of a single website
1145 2013-11-21 15:29:59 <rebroad> easier ways to take coins from offline wallets to online wallets, etc. maybe an OS image that can be put into a memory stick to use for the offline wallet.
1146 2013-11-21 15:30:05 <rebroad> (so that a dedicated PC isn't required)
1147 2013-11-21 15:30:08 <TD> though a big part of bitpays value add is automatic sales and bank wires
1148 2013-11-21 15:30:23 <TD> can't replace that, no matter how good the tools or docs are
1149 2013-11-21 15:31:13 <rebroad> do any of these 3rd parties, like bitpay, make gaurantees against loss of bitcoins? or are they like intersango where the only gaurantee they make is to not intentionally lie?
1150 2013-11-21 15:31:14 <gmaxwell> well, you can but only by still relying on a centeralized site. E.g. you could drop the funds on $exchange and api trade. :P only an advantage in terms of a choice of more providers.
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1153 2013-11-21 15:32:26 <damethos> hello people
1154 2013-11-21 15:32:50 <rebroad> on an aside note (off topic), I wish mtgox would warn users when doing a "market sell" that they may destabilize the market doing such an action by causing a drop in price which can encourage panic selling... often when people market sell, they are not selling ALL of their bitcoins, so it generally isn't in their interest to lower the bitcoin price or cause a crash...
1155 2013-11-21 15:32:53 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1158 2013-11-21 15:33:28 <gmaxwell> rebroad: the orderbook is normally so large that it doesn't matter.
1159 2013-11-21 15:33:37 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1160 2013-11-21 15:33:46 BTCUser has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1161 2013-11-21 15:33:51 <gmaxwell> rebroad: and if you're selling a million dollars worth and don't understand how the market works, uhhh.. hire someone to trade for you?
1162 2013-11-21 15:33:51 <rebroad> gmaxwell, on the 18th it obviously wasn't large enough, according to gribble on #bitcoin-prices
1163 2013-11-21 15:33:52 GingerGeek[Away] has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1164 2013-11-21 15:34:08 <gmaxwell> ;;market sell 1000
1165 2013-11-21 15:34:09 <gribble> A market order to sell 1000 bitcoins right now would net 702891.4872 USD and would take the last price down to 687.0000 USD, resulting in an average price of 702.8915 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0051 seconds
1166 2013-11-21 15:34:17 <rebroad> gmaxwell, there are more and more people around selling a million dollars worth who don't understand how the market works IMHO!
1167 2013-11-21 15:34:36 <sipa> rebroad: then they'll learn quickly
1168 2013-11-21 15:34:40 <Emcy> rebroad: we dont have the technology yet to do what youre describing
1169 2013-11-21 15:34:53 <gmaxwell> so a move of about 3% on a market order of nearly a million bucks in coins, ::yawn::
1170 2013-11-21 15:35:22 <Wegot> Why'd jeff get removed as admin from the sourceforge? did he do something shady?
1171 2013-11-21 15:36:01 GingerGeek[Away] has joined
1172 2013-11-21 15:36:12 <rebroad> can I get gribble to quote a market sell in GBP?
1173 2013-11-21 15:36:31 <wumpus> Wegot: no, he didn't, he was temporarily removed on his own request
1174 2013-11-21 15:36:32 GingerGeek[Away] is now known as GingerGeek
1175 2013-11-21 15:36:35 Uglux has joined
1176 2013-11-21 15:37:34 <Emcy> i get the feeling more than even for 2009 bitcoin is ahead of its time somewhat
1177 2013-11-21 15:37:40 Urushiol-zZzz is now known as Urushiol
1178 2013-11-21 15:37:56 <Emcy> and it would be a shame to let it get bent out of shape to accomodate that when all we had to do was wait for technology to catch up
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1181 2013-11-21 15:39:02 <Wegot> Not really, I think bitcoin being made in 2009 was way too late.
1182 2013-11-21 15:39:18 <Wegot> It's crazy that nobody implemented it before then.
1183 2013-11-21 15:39:43 <sipa> given that how long it take to even consider a small percentage of smart people that it was even a viable idea, i doubt that
1184 2013-11-21 15:39:56 <sipa> my grammar makes no sense
1185 2013-11-21 15:40:17 <sipa> given that how long it took for even a small percentage of smart people to consider it a viable idea, i doubt that
1186 2013-11-21 15:40:28 <rebroad> if I want someone to write an automatic stoploss for me... best place is bitcointalk.org?
1187 2013-11-21 15:40:43 <Emcy> its easy to say oh that was so obvious after a breakthrough is made
1188 2013-11-21 15:40:46 <rebroad> (sorry, off-topic possibly)
1189 2013-11-21 15:40:50 <stonecoldpat0> i think 2009 is probably around the right now
1190 2013-11-21 15:41:01 <stonecoldpat0> right time*
1191 2013-11-21 15:41:25 <Wegot> Wei Dai practically described it a long ass time ago.
1192 2013-11-21 15:41:46 <rebroad> who is Wei Dai?
1193 2013-11-21 15:42:26 <jakov> a short time after it became well known what happened in 2007
1194 2013-11-21 15:42:31 <jakov> he was working on it since 2008
1195 2013-11-21 15:42:53 <Wegot> http://www.weidai.com/bmoney.txt
1196 2013-11-21 15:43:24 <jakov> well steam power was known since roman times, it took specific economic conditions for good steam engines to be made
1197 2013-11-21 15:43:25 <Emcy> well theres a differnce between theory and application
1198 2013-11-21 15:43:29 <Emcy> satoshi was the first
1199 2013-11-21 15:43:35 <jakov> its not just about technology and knowledge, also economic reasons
1200 2013-11-21 15:44:22 <Emcy> no one responsible for any breakthrough can claim sole glory
1201 2013-11-21 15:45:20 saulimus has joined
1202 2013-11-21 15:45:23 DougieBot5000 has joined
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1204 2013-11-21 15:46:46 <gmaxwell> Wegot: the bmoney writeup is pretty unlike bitcoin, in particular it lacks any of the features that made bitcoin technically novel (though this point is tautological)
1205 2013-11-21 15:46:52 <Emcy> is bitnodes actually legit now
1206 2013-11-21 15:46:58 mynameis has joined
1207 2013-11-21 15:47:34 otoburb has joined
1208 2013-11-21 15:48:08 <otoburb> any armory devs or site maintainers here?
1209 2013-11-21 15:48:17 <Emcy> they claim like six figure nodes, i think their definition is a bit different than ours
1210 2013-11-21 15:48:32 mynameis has left ()
1211 2013-11-21 15:50:07 [EddyF] has joined
1212 2013-11-21 15:50:21 <TD> they provide several stats
1213 2013-11-21 15:50:24 <TD> it's important to know what they mean
1214 2013-11-21 15:50:42 bbrian has joined
1215 2013-11-21 15:52:07 <Emcy> they seem to be imcluding all the churn
1216 2013-11-21 15:52:37 <Emcy> and the natted ones
1217 2013-11-21 15:52:53 <Emcy> well its not liket hey dont count or somthing
1218 2013-11-21 15:53:44 <Emcy> only 2500 will reply with any peers
1219 2013-11-21 15:53:50 <Emcy> not great
1220 2013-11-21 15:54:13 Musk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1224 2013-11-21 15:59:13 <Wegot> Is Wumpus that wladimir guy?
1225 2013-11-21 16:00:48 <wumpus> lol yes
1226 2013-11-21 16:03:05 <Wegot> I bet you'll be the lead core dev soon, when gavin gets stressed out.
1227 2013-11-21 16:03:34 btc1981 has joined
1228 2013-11-21 16:03:39 <Emcy> why say that
1229 2013-11-21 16:04:05 <Wegot> We all know it...
1230 2013-11-21 16:04:18 btc1981 has quit (Client Quit)
1231 2013-11-21 16:04:26 <Emcy> eh
1232 2013-11-21 16:05:34 SwampTony has joined
1233 2013-11-21 16:05:41 <Emcy> gavin is paid in coin to do what he does now. with the way the price goes im sure thats a great de stressor
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1235 2013-11-21 16:12:53 stonecoldpat0 has quit ()
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1237 2013-11-21 16:13:32 <helo> iirc they recalculate every quarter
1238 2013-11-21 16:13:42 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1239 2013-11-21 16:13:47 gruvfunk has joined
1240 2013-11-21 16:13:53 <gavinandresen> every month
1241 2013-11-21 16:14:23 <TD> gives a whole new meaning to the term pay rise
1242 2013-11-21 16:14:30 <Wegot> LOL
1243 2013-11-21 16:14:30 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1244 2013-11-21 16:14:50 tholenst has joined
1245 2013-11-21 16:15:29 <Wegot> Why doesn't bitcoin.org have HTTPS?
1246 2013-11-21 16:15:35 <TD> github doesn't support it
1247 2013-11-21 16:15:59 <Wegot> -.-
1248 2013-11-21 16:16:28 <damethos> hey TD-man
1249 2013-11-21 16:16:33 <damethos> hey TD-man
1250 2013-11-21 16:16:34 agnostic98 has joined
1251 2013-11-21 16:16:39 <TD> hey
1252 2013-11-21 16:16:39 <damethos> oups double enter
1253 2013-11-21 16:16:49 <Wegot> Can't someone donate servers or something. Seems weird to have no https when that's the place I go to download the software.
1254 2013-11-21 16:17:08 <damethos> TD, testnet is comin ;)
1255 2013-11-21 16:17:17 <TD> cool
1256 2013-11-21 16:18:04 Insomnia` has joined
1257 2013-11-21 16:18:14 Ellipsis has joined
1258 2013-11-21 16:18:15 agnostic_ has joined
1259 2013-11-21 16:18:31 <damethos> Wegot is there a point to have https to a site like that?
1260 2013-11-21 16:18:41 <damethos> its just info
1261 2013-11-21 16:18:49 <TD> the more the better
1262 2013-11-21 16:19:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: what number do they recalculate by?
1263 2013-11-21 16:19:33 <Ellipsis> Hello. I sent 0.2 bitcoins (from an address with 1.0) and it's now been almost 30 minutes without any confirmations. Default settings were used in bitcoin-qt (so no transaction fee?). Is this normal? It's taking excessively long and my transactions since then haven't processed either (and I used a transaction fee of 0.0002 per 1kB in the settings).
1264 2013-11-21 16:19:44 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: eleven, of course
1265 2013-11-21 16:20:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wegot: the place is actually sourceforge, not bitcoin.org
1266 2013-11-21 16:20:02 gdoteof has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1267 2013-11-21 16:20:03 <gmaxwell> ;;tslb
1268 2013-11-21 16:20:05 Paddy has joined
1269 2013-11-21 16:20:07 <gribble> Time since last block: 21 minutes and 11 seconds
1270 2013-11-21 16:20:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: uh, what?
1271 2013-11-21 16:20:20 Paddy has left ()
1272 2013-11-21 16:20:35 <gmaxwell> Ellipsis: there hasn't even been a block for 21 minutes. If you'd care to share the txid I can check if my nodes have it.
1273 2013-11-21 16:20:38 <gavinandresen> TD: RE: block size / transaction confirmation time issue: I'll send an email to the poolowners mailing list tomorrow about it.
1274 2013-11-21 16:20:41 stonecoldpat has joined
1275 2013-11-21 16:20:46 <wumpus> github does support https for release downloads, just not for hosted sites,hence there is an issue about doing the next release on github instead
1276 2013-11-21 16:20:50 <TD> cool
1277 2013-11-21 16:20:52 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1278 2013-11-21 16:21:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gavinandresen: I mean, which value source is used to recalculate?
1279 2013-11-21 16:22:01 <gavinandresen> michagogo|cloud: my salary is set in US dollars
1280 2013-11-21 16:22:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|...I realize that
1281 2013-11-21 16:22:27 <gavinandresen> oh, you mean which exchange rate?
1282 2013-11-21 16:22:32 <gavinandresen> I dunno.
1283 2013-11-21 16:22:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yes, that
1284 2013-11-21 16:22:38 <Ellipsis> gmaxwell, Upon checking again I made the transaction at 12:51(16:19 now). Here's the one: https://blockchain.info/address/1HAPPZzvf2SuKXbpcF7T2WVRHrDnWE3BXD
1285 2013-11-21 16:23:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ellipsis: no-fee transactions can take a while to confirm c
1286 2013-11-21 16:23:22 <Ellipsis> Are blocks going slower than every 10 minutes at the moment because of all the new miners lately? (to sort of compensate?)
1287 2013-11-21 16:23:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ellipsis: no, not on average
1288 2013-11-21 16:23:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But it's random
1289 2013-11-21 16:23:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;tblb 3600
1290 2013-11-21 16:23:49 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour and 0 seconds to generate is 4 days, 22 hours, 38 minutes, and 44 seconds
1291 2013-11-21 16:23:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;tblb 1800
1292 2013-11-21 16:23:59 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 30 minutes and 0 seconds to generate is 4 hours, 12 minutes, and 58 seconds
1293 2013-11-21 16:24:29 <gmaxwell> Ellipsis: my nodes have it but aren't quite trying to mine it yet.
1294 2013-11-21 16:24:54 <Ellipsis> OK. Is this long of a wait normal? Is the first one without a fee blocking my later ones? (because the 1.0 is all stored in a single address).
1295 2013-11-21 16:24:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: solo? P2pool? Other pool with gbt?
1296 2013-11-21 16:25:53 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: I checked gbt on my laptop and my p2pool node, and also checked eligius gbt.
1297 2013-11-21 16:26:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I see
1298 2013-11-21 16:26:31 <gmaxwell> Ellipsis: 30 minutes? yes thats not abnormal, as mentioned there hasn't been been a block at all in 20.
1299 2013-11-21 16:27:26 <Ellipsis> From 12:51 until now (16:19). So it's been 3 hours(ish)
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1302 2013-11-21 16:31:25 <stonecoldpat> im building bitcoin locally - im wondering is https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5851.msg86700#msg86700 still the best guide to follow?
1303 2013-11-21 16:32:16 <sipa> that's over 2 years old
1304 2013-11-21 16:32:23 <sipa> i doubt it's still useful
1305 2013-11-21 16:32:45 markus__ has joined
1306 2013-11-21 16:32:51 <TD> lol. someone just tried to buy drugs by emailing the tor-talk list
1307 2013-11-21 16:33:06 handle has joined
1308 2013-11-21 16:33:29 t7 has quit (Quit: home)
1309 2013-11-21 16:34:34 <wizkid057> gotta love those tor users
1310 2013-11-21 16:36:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|stonecoldpat: what system are you on?
1311 2013-11-21 16:36:42 <stonecoldpat> windows 7
1312 2013-11-21 16:36:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah.
1313 2013-11-21 16:36:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Good luck :-P
1314 2013-11-21 16:36:59 <stonecoldpat> lolo
1315 2013-11-21 16:37:06 <stonecoldpat> is it easier on linux?
1316 2013-11-21 16:37:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Very much so
1317 2013-11-21 16:37:42 <sipa> even the windows release binaries are built on linux
1318 2013-11-21 16:38:37 <stonecoldpat> ah
1319 2013-11-21 16:38:52 <stonecoldpat> ill get my hands on a linux machine then
1320 2013-11-21 16:38:56 <stonecoldpat> is there a good guide for linux?
1321 2013-11-21 16:38:57 <stonecoldpat> lol
1322 2013-11-21 16:39:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|stonecoldpat: just use a VM
1323 2013-11-21 16:39:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's the doc folder in the source tree
1324 2013-11-21 16:39:24 sois has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
1325 2013-11-21 16:39:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I think there's build stuff there
1326 2013-11-21 16:39:42 sois has joined
1327 2013-11-21 16:40:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Though I'm not sure whether or not there's something there about cross-compilation)
1328 2013-11-21 16:40:26 <stonecoldpat> ill have a look into it
1329 2013-11-21 16:40:29 <stonecoldpat> see what it says
1330 2013-11-21 16:40:55 _ingsoc has quit (Quit: leaving)
1331 2013-11-21 16:41:00 tsche has joined
1332 2013-11-21 16:41:08 <sipa> building for windows on linux is certainly harder than native builds
1333 2013-11-21 16:41:21 _ingsoc has joined
1334 2013-11-21 16:42:05 AtashiCon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1335 2013-11-21 16:42:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But it *is* still scriptable
1336 2013-11-21 16:42:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'd imagine you could do it by reading the gitian descriptors to see what packages you need and what steps to take
1337 2013-11-21 16:43:29 <wumpus> yes, it's harder, especially cross-compiling the dependencies.. though indeed you can simply follow the gitian descriptors (or better, use gitian)
1338 2013-11-21 16:44:34 jacob_ has joined
1339 2013-11-21 16:44:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: well, not in a VM easily
1340 2013-11-21 16:44:55 wavelet has left ("Leaving")
1341 2013-11-21 16:45:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Though it's easier now, since I tried it and found all kinds of problems that devrandom fixed)
1342 2013-11-21 16:47:24 Coincidental has joined
1343 2013-11-21 16:47:45 <wumpus> not with qemu, sure, but also not with LXC?
1344 2013-11-21 16:47:57 mappum has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1345 2013-11-21 16:47:58 <Ellipsis> Ah, my 3 transactions have all cleared now. Phew. (2 confirmations already almost at once!). Hopefully paying a fee of 0.0002 per kB will stop transactions taking more than half an hour or so in future. Thanks everyone for your help.
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1353 2013-11-21 16:53:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wumpus: with lxc, yeah
1354 2013-11-21 16:53:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(That being where there were all kinds of problems when I tried it)
1355 2013-11-21 16:54:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But it *might* be working now that devrandom fixed a bunch of problems
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1369 2013-11-21 17:10:00 <Belxjander> michagogo|cloud: bitcoin-qt sources?
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1385 2013-11-21 17:22:37 Musk has joined
1386 2013-11-21 17:23:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Belxjander: ?
1387 2013-11-21 17:23:54 sois has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
1388 2013-11-21 17:24:33 sois has joined
1389 2013-11-21 17:25:18 <Belxjander> michagogo|cloud: I'm wondering about getting hold of a snapshot of the bitcoin-qt and bitcoind sources and then writing a C wrapper around the C++ to use it on AmigaOS as a native program there
1390 2013-11-21 17:26:06 iz has joined
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1393 2013-11-21 17:26:33 deepc0re has joined
1394 2013-11-21 17:26:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Um
1395 2013-11-21 17:26:36 johnsoft has joined
1396 2013-11-21 17:26:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|github/bitcoin
1397 2013-11-21 17:26:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Why were you asking me?)
1398 2013-11-21 17:27:01 drayah has joined
1399 2013-11-21 17:28:04 <iz> i recall some discussion about storing other things of value on the blockchain.. like vehicle title or things like that.. was that idea called something in particular i could search for?
1400 2013-11-21 17:28:14 <Belxjander> earlier conversation... didn't really understand it so hoped I was asking something semi-relevant by chance
1401 2013-11-21 17:28:16 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1402 2013-11-21 17:28:31 <gmaxwell> iz: smart property
1403 2013-11-21 17:28:51 zcopley has quit (Quit: *disappeared in a puff of logic*)
1404 2013-11-21 17:28:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|iz: many names
1405 2013-11-21 17:28:56 <TD> iz: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Smart_Property
1406 2013-11-21 17:29:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What gmaxwell said
1407 2013-11-21 17:29:05 <iz> ah, perfect, ty
1408 2013-11-21 17:29:12 SwampTon_ has joined
1409 2013-11-21 17:29:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Colored coins is a related concept
1410 2013-11-21 17:30:12 <iz> so w/ loans.. that would basically be storing the value of a traditional currency like USD on the blockchain?
1411 2013-11-21 17:31:03 <gmaxwell> Personally I'm a fan of "wireless smart property": instead of a sticky coin in the blockchain controlling the property. You just ask the property itself to agree to an ownership change conditional on being delivered a proof (extracted by the property reciever from the blockchain). This saves you from having to have the property have an independant and safe connection to the blockchain. :P
1412 2013-11-21 17:31:13 <iz> like.. in theory, you could have the blockchain storing bitcoin value, and the value of several other traditional currencies in the form of loans
1413 2013-11-21 17:31:17 <iz> is that right?
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1416 2013-11-21 17:32:44 <iz> like you could put USD bonds on the blockchain as smart property?
1417 2013-11-21 17:33:12 AtashiCon has joined
1418 2013-11-21 17:36:39 <gmaxwell> iz: the problem there is that the bond itself is not smart. What makes any of that work is the trusted entity that enforces it.
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1420 2013-11-21 17:37:12 <iz> well, the trust would be in the US govt, like with any other bond
1421 2013-11-21 17:38:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The ultimate smart property would be e.g. a car that unlocked and started for whoever owns it
1422 2013-11-21 17:38:25 <gmaxwell> iz: the point being there is that if you have to trust X to obey your bond rules, you could often just directly tell X about your ownership changes.
1423 2013-11-21 17:38:45 <iz> ah right, i see
1424 2013-11-21 17:38:59 <gmaxwell> iz: and then bitcoin either doesn't come into it at all, or only comes into it in the form of X acting as an observer to make atomic changes based on bitcoin.
1425 2013-11-21 17:39:22 pejean has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1426 2013-11-21 17:39:22 <iz> so i was originally brainstorming about ideas to put traditional currency into the blockchain..
1427 2013-11-21 17:39:37 <TD> well, the car example doesn't need any trusted third party
1428 2013-11-21 17:39:42 <iz> and had remembered some talk about smart property and was wondering if it had already been done
1429 2013-11-21 17:39:48 <gmaxwell> TD: the car itself is the trusted third party. :)
1430 2013-11-21 17:39:53 <TD> hmmm
1431 2013-11-21 17:39:55 ApexBionic has joined
1432 2013-11-21 17:39:56 * TD meditates upon that
1433 2013-11-21 17:40:23 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im sorry dave i cannot allow you to transfer ownership
1434 2013-11-21 17:40:26 <iz> you know how china has bought up a lot of US bonds and such?
1435 2013-11-21 17:40:34 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1436 2013-11-21 17:40:54 <iz> what if you could get it so the blockchain owns those bonds and they are propping up btc
1437 2013-11-21 17:41:15 <iz> or owns us bonds.. or any other currency like that
1438 2013-11-21 17:41:21 <iz> or is that even possible?
1439 2013-11-21 17:41:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|iz: the blockchain can't owns nutting
1440 2013-11-21 17:41:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh...
1441 2013-11-21 17:41:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Own anything
1442 2013-11-21 17:41:36 <TD> gmail is telling me it's going to snow tonight ....
1443 2013-11-21 17:41:43 thelorax123 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1444 2013-11-21 17:42:10 <iz> michagogo|cloud: it sort of can though.. i could encode a file into a custom transaction, which could only be retrieved by ppl w/ the correct key
1445 2013-11-21 17:42:25 <iz> i guess it doesn't own it though
1446 2013-11-21 17:42:28 <iz> it's just holding it
1447 2013-11-21 17:42:31 <gmaxwell> TD: how does it do that? do you start getting ads for snowshoes? :P
1448 2013-11-21 17:42:32 pejean has joined
1449 2013-11-21 17:42:44 <TD> the background wallpaper changes to reflect the weather
1450 2013-11-21 17:42:46 thelorax123 has joined
1451 2013-11-21 17:42:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|iz: also, remember that there isn't a "the blockchain"
1452 2013-11-21 17:42:50 <TD> it's dark so i can't see if it's accurate or not
1453 2013-11-21 17:42:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There's the current longest blockchain
1454 2013-11-21 17:43:05 Emi has joined
1455 2013-11-21 17:43:14 <phantomcircuit> michagogo|cloud, blocktree
1456 2013-11-21 17:43:28 <iz> well, it's pretty safe to say that old transactions will be common in all.. yeah.. i like block tree better
1457 2013-11-21 17:43:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|phantomcircuit: sure
1458 2013-11-21 17:44:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, you still have a blockchain
1459 2013-11-21 17:44:08 FreeTommy has left ()
1460 2013-11-21 17:44:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|That is, the longest path on the block tree
1461 2013-11-21 17:44:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm
1462 2013-11-21 17:44:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/the longest/a/
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1464 2013-11-21 17:45:46 <Belxjander> michagogo|cloud: so what about the idea of having a "block storage fs" based around individual Files being named by the linkage keys in the chain headers ?
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1466 2013-11-21 17:46:06 <Belxjander> and having it act as a caching mechanism?
1467 2013-11-21 17:46:20 <Belxjander> anyone got an opinion as to whether that idea is at all relevant ?
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1470 2013-11-21 17:46:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Belxjander: I'm not sure I understand
1471 2013-11-21 17:46:49 <Belxjander> michagogo|cloud: the existing "blockchain" is stored as a huge single file...
1472 2013-11-21 17:46:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not exactly
1473 2013-11-21 17:47:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There are many blk*.dat files
1474 2013-11-21 17:47:44 <Belxjander> I would break it into "hunk"s... and have each hunk as its own filesystem presented under a "/dev/blockchain" for the raw device blocks or "/mnt/blockchain/" mountpoint
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1476 2013-11-21 17:48:08 <Belxjander> generally breaking the content of the DB into being what the FileSystem can show the userspace
1477 2013-11-21 17:48:19 <Emi> bitcoin!!!!
1478 2013-11-21 17:48:27 <Belxjander> open the folder(database) and read/write dynamic objects contained
1479 2013-11-21 17:48:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The blockchain is an append-only database
1480 2013-11-21 17:49:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or rather, the block storage
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1483 2013-11-21 17:50:17 <phantomcircuit> Belxjander, that sounds like an exercise is useless engineering
1484 2013-11-21 17:51:20 <Belxjander> phantomcircuit: so making it a fuse filesystem and having the blockchain caching visible as user files is useless?
1485 2013-11-21 17:51:40 <iz> maybe if you could mount the existing dat files
1486 2013-11-21 17:51:47 <iz> and explore it like that
1487 2013-11-21 17:51:49 <Belxjander> iz: works for me
1488 2013-11-21 17:51:56 <TD> https://github.com/btchip/btchipJC - sweet
1489 2013-11-21 17:51:57 <phantomcircuit> Belxjander, yes
1490 2013-11-21 17:52:04 <Belxjander> I'm still trying to reasd up and piece together how it works
1491 2013-11-21 17:52:31 <Belxjander> as I am wanting to wrapper what functionality is present in a section by section process and get it usable on AmigaOS
1492 2013-11-21 17:52:39 <TD> sort of like a trezor-lite that uses a phone as a secure display
1493 2013-11-21 17:52:40 <phantomcircuit> TD, that is pretty cool
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1496 2013-11-21 17:52:43 <Belxjander> it won't run as-is or even build as-is
1497 2013-11-21 17:53:09 <phantomcircuit> unfortunately NFC is totally and completely insecure in nearly every implementation
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1500 2013-11-21 17:53:53 <iz> i saw a presentation on DPA to recover AES keys
1501 2013-11-21 17:53:54 <stonecoldpat> guys, has anyone seen the error "autogen.sh: line 1: autoreconf: command not found" ? I've tried to install autoconf http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/ and it should be installed now
1502 2013-11-21 17:54:04 <stonecoldpat> (on windows)
1503 2013-11-21 17:54:05 <Emi> freenode is full of purdes
1504 2013-11-21 17:54:12 <phantomcircuit> wat
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1506 2013-11-21 17:54:23 <phantomcircuit> stonecoldpat, i dont think bitcoin will compile on windows at all
1507 2013-11-21 17:54:24 <iz> and it makes NFC look laughably insecure in it's implementation
1508 2013-11-21 17:54:36 <phantomcircuit> all the builds except osx are built on ubuntu
1509 2013-11-21 17:55:37 <stonecoldpat> ive been following https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-msw.md so it should be possible to do on windows
1510 2013-11-21 17:55:49 <TD> hardly
1511 2013-11-21 17:55:55 <phantomcircuit> lol
1512 2013-11-21 17:56:02 <phantomcircuit> did you even read the first line?
1513 2013-11-21 17:56:05 <phantomcircuit> TODO: What works? Note: releases are cross-compiled using mingw running on Linux.
1514 2013-11-21 17:56:09 <stonecoldpat> haha
1515 2013-11-21 17:56:10 <stonecoldpat> i know
1516 2013-11-21 17:56:26 <stonecoldpat> im in a process of finding out what works i guess
1517 2013-11-21 17:56:31 <TD> iz: if NFC is so insecure, i guess we'll see that as PayPass rolls out across europe ... but i am thinking it's not as bad as you suggest
1518 2013-11-21 17:56:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|stonecoldpat: I assume you have mingw installed and working?
1519 2013-11-21 17:57:04 <phantomcircuit> TD, it's probably worse than he's suggesting actually...
1520 2013-11-21 17:57:07 <stonecoldpat> seems to be working, im using the terminal atm to prepare opensll etc
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1522 2013-11-21 17:57:43 <stonecoldpat> td: NFC at the moment is unsecure for payment - i know that an android app has been created that can read the details from papers cards (as it is not encrypted when broadcasted)
1523 2013-11-21 17:57:55 <stonecoldpat> well not for payment* but for general carrying around
1524 2013-11-21 17:58:06 <stonecoldpat> ive refused to get a NFC debit card for that reason
1525 2013-11-21 17:58:14 <phantomcircuit> TD, the principle issue is that the handlers installed on most phones for nfc events have no user confirmation and tend to just do stuff blindly
1526 2013-11-21 17:58:16 <TD> uh
1527 2013-11-21 17:58:28 <TD> phantomcircuit: right. but only for small transactions
1528 2013-11-21 17:58:36 <phantomcircuit> my personal favorite is that you can just walk around and have nfc open any random website on peoples phones
1529 2013-11-21 17:58:39 <phantomcircuit> as in
1530 2013-11-21 17:58:44 <phantomcircuit> *any* website
1531 2013-11-21 17:58:56 <TD> no. (a) the screen has to be unlocked (b) you have to get physically next to the device
1532 2013-11-21 17:59:05 <TD> the whole point of NFC is that physical distance is a security bounary
1533 2013-11-21 17:59:17 <phantomcircuit> except it's not really
1534 2013-11-21 17:59:18 <iz> TD: DPA is scary
1535 2013-11-21 17:59:20 <stonecoldpat> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/creditcards/10095303/Your-contactless-card-could-be-hacked-by-mobile-phone.html
1536 2013-11-21 17:59:37 <TD> iz: DPA?
1537 2013-11-21 17:59:48 <phantomcircuit> TD, the distance thing is vastly overestimated, a high power broadcast only setup will work over much larger distances than people expect
1538 2013-11-21 18:00:03 <TD> stonecoldpat: oh FFS. newspapers shocked to discover that standards exist and work. your card cannot be hacked with a mobile phone
1539 2013-11-21 18:00:08 <phantomcircuit> it's only low distance because the transmitters tend to be very low power
1540 2013-11-21 18:00:26 <TD> phantomcircuit: good luck exploiting that in the real world. especially as the transmissions *back* won't be high power
1541 2013-11-21 18:00:39 <stonecoldpat> td: it doesnt get hacked, you can swipe the phone over the credit card, and it picks up the 16-digit code, name, etc
1542 2013-11-21 18:00:45 <iz> TD: differential power analysis; a side channel attack that can recover the AES keys by just recording the EMR the phone gives off while doing crypto operations
1543 2013-11-21 18:01:03 <TD> iz: that's what i thought you were referring to.
1544 2013-11-21 18:01:22 <TD> iz: modern chips are designed to resist that. it's an extremely sophisticated attack anyway.
1545 2013-11-21 18:01:24 <phantomcircuit> TD, i might have this wrong, but i believe you can send simple commands blindly
1546 2013-11-21 18:01:35 <TD> iz: but i think you'll find the designers of these chips are quite aware of all the different ways to attack them
1547 2013-11-21 18:01:44 <TD> stonecoldpat: so what? you can also just look at it, or take a photo of it.
1548 2013-11-21 18:01:44 <iz> TD: any modern chip that is resistant against that MUST have a licence from CRI, as they own all the IP
1549 2013-11-21 18:02:06 <iz> TD: so any device that doesn't have a DPA-resistant licence from CRI.. is vulnerable to this attack.
1550 2013-11-21 18:02:21 <stonecoldpat> td: if I walk past you in the street, the mobile phone can pick up the card details, so potentially its not safe to carry it with you in public
1551 2013-11-21 18:02:25 <TD> stonecoldpat: these newspaper stories are written by idiots. it was the same for passports. "zomg phones can read your passport!" missing detail: if you have physical access to the document, in which case, you could take a photo of it
1552 2013-11-21 18:02:26 <iz> or else.. lawyers..
1553 2013-11-21 18:02:28 <TD> no
1554 2013-11-21 18:02:32 <TD> no no no no no
1555 2013-11-21 18:02:34 <TD> that is not how NFC works
1556 2013-11-21 18:02:36 <TD> go and try it
1557 2013-11-21 18:02:41 <TD> see how many credit card details you can swipe
1558 2013-11-21 18:02:52 <stonecoldpat> td: I just picked the article as an example, i know people who made the app for the phone
1559 2013-11-21 18:03:06 <stonecoldpat> td: it works very well
1560 2013-11-21 18:03:13 <iz> yeah, it wouldn't work like that.. a DPA attack would be installed within a malicious NFC reader
1561 2013-11-21 18:03:27 <iz> siphoning off the private keys of everyone that makes a transaction at it
1562 2013-11-21 18:03:35 <TD> stonecoldpat: so how many strangers card details were you able to obtain?
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1565 2013-11-21 18:04:53 <stonecoldpat> td: I didn't use the app (and I dont think your allowed to test on strangers) - im looking for the paper now about it
1566 2013-11-21 18:05:00 <iz> TD: http://www.cryptography.com/technology/dpa.html
1567 2013-11-21 18:05:07 <TD> iz: yeah i know one of the guys who set up CRI
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1569 2013-11-21 18:05:34 <iz> my point is.. they own all the patents and control DPA resistant technology
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1571 2013-11-21 18:05:49 <iz> that is what will prevent all modern chips from being resistant to DPA attacks
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1573 2013-11-21 18:06:14 <TD> er
1574 2013-11-21 18:06:16 <TD> http://www.cryptography.com/technology/dpa/licensed-countermeasures.html
1575 2013-11-21 18:06:17 <iz> (it's a pretty expensive licence)
1576 2013-11-21 18:06:29 <TD> on your own website, it shows you that most of the major manufacturers (all?) are licensees, including visa
1577 2013-11-21 18:06:41 <TD> and that's not an exhaustive list, i guess
1578 2013-11-21 18:06:48 <iz> TD: yeah, but the attack would be on the phone
1579 2013-11-21 18:06:57 <iz> as it would be the thing that would need to be resistant
1580 2013-11-21 18:07:09 <TD> what are we talking about again? i thought we were talking about payment cards
1581 2013-11-21 18:07:22 <iz> oh, i was thinking NFC payment on cell phones
1582 2013-11-21 18:07:43 <TD> NFC payment on smart phones basically just embeds (more like glues) a regular payment card chip into the phone itself
1583 2013-11-21 18:07:45 <iz> on payment cards, they make it pretty resistant, i agree
1584 2013-11-21 18:07:53 <TD> the phones CPU doesn't have any kind of control over the ship
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1586 2013-11-21 18:07:55 <TD> *chip
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1588 2013-11-21 18:08:13 <TD> like, the CPU gets a notification when it's done and a payment has been made. but that's about it.
1589 2013-11-21 18:08:17 <TD> so their security is equivalent
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1591 2013-11-21 18:08:27 <iz> TD: a lot of the implementations on phone use the phone's crypto libs.. at least in the CRI demo i saw
1592 2013-11-21 18:08:39 <iz> cuz they want to sell to phone manufacturers, i guess
1593 2013-11-21 18:08:56 <iz> it was an android device
1594 2013-11-21 18:09:03 <TD> i watched the google wallet guys deploy NFC payments, and read some of their design docs. the lack of any kind of integration between the payments part and the rest of the phone was notable.
1595 2013-11-21 18:09:12 <TD> that's why i used the term glue
1596 2013-11-21 18:09:21 <TD> it almost made you wonder what the point of having a phone integration was.
1597 2013-11-21 18:09:43 <TD> so i dunno what CRI was demoing, but it's not an attack against any implementation i'm familiar with
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1599 2013-11-21 18:10:11 <TD> i mean, visa/mastercard might be sluggish but they aren't actually stupid. they wouldn't allow phones to be a massive hole in their entire security system
1600 2013-11-21 18:10:54 <iz> TD: http://www.nfcworld.com/2013/10/31/326619/google-gets-around-carriers-host-card-emulation-nfc-payments/
1601 2013-11-21 18:11:38 <iz> Android HCE emulates ISO/IEC 7816 based smart cards that use the contactless ISO/IEC 14443-4 (ISO-DEP) protocol for transmission. These cards are used by many systems today, including the existing EMVCo NFC payment infrastructure. Android uses Application Identifiers (AIDs) as defined in ISO/IEC 7816-4 as the basis for routing transactions to the correct Android applications.
1602 2013-11-21 18:11:56 <TD> yes, the API exists. whether visa/mc will allow their keys to be provisioned to a normal android app is a very open question. they might accept something inside trustzone. we'll see.
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1604 2013-11-21 18:12:05 <iz> ah, i understand you
1605 2013-11-21 18:12:07 <TD> i suspect it might get used more for perhaps things like transit passes
1606 2013-11-21 18:12:15 <TD> anyway, that's my understanding
1607 2013-11-21 18:12:22 <TD> i stopped following how nfc payments on phones worked a year or so ago
1608 2013-11-21 18:12:26 <TD> so what i just wrote is speculation.
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1610 2013-11-21 18:12:54 <TD> my existing understanding is that NFC payments is as secure as normal chip cards. AFAIK there isn't much appetite for contactless phone payments in europe anyway and that's where most of the deployment is
1611 2013-11-21 18:13:20 <iz> yeah, they have chip and pin already anyway
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1613 2013-11-21 18:13:29 <TD> i mean, there aren't any obvious advantages and you don't want to run out of battery and be unable to make payments
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1618 2013-11-21 18:17:48 <stonecoldpat> td: http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/paul.dunphy/hwit/Emms.pdf
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1621 2013-11-21 18:18:32 <stonecoldpat> td: "The specific weakness exploited in this demonstration is that the contactless cards will divulge the (i) card number (ii) cardholder name (iii) expiry date (iv) issue date, unencrypted to any NFC reader that requests the data.
1622 2013-11-21 18:18:32 <stonecoldpat> This is not an error, the functionality is fully compliant with the EMV specification for contactless cards. It is assumed that the maximum read range of 10cm makes it difficult to get close enough to read the card without arousing suspicion. This assumption is incorrect." is the general idea
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1624 2013-11-21 18:19:15 <stonecoldpat> doesnt mention it in the paper, but an android app was later made that could skim the dta
1625 2013-11-21 18:19:17 <stonecoldpat> data*
1626 2013-11-21 18:19:28 <TD> why is the assumption incorrect
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1629 2013-11-21 18:20:32 <TD> i think things about NFC range tend to be very speculative. especially as the information doesn't include the CVV or 3DS details that you'd need to make an online purchase
1630 2013-11-21 18:21:06 <stonecoldpat> you dont always need the cvv
1631 2013-11-21 18:21:22 <TD> then the merchant is liable for any fraud
1632 2013-11-21 18:21:32 <TD> (same for if they don't implement 3DS)
1633 2013-11-21 18:22:00 <stonecoldpat> amazon dont
1634 2013-11-21 18:22:03 <stonecoldpat> ive just had a little check
1635 2013-11-21 18:22:10 <stonecoldpat> (ask for cvv)
1636 2013-11-21 18:22:11 <TD> because they have lots of their own fraud control measures in place
1637 2013-11-21 18:22:22 <kjj> I really wish there was a proper term for "CC over NFC" other than "NFC"
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1639 2013-11-21 18:22:52 <TD> they don't do VBV or 3DS either, afaik, but they have >decade of expertise in cc risk analysis
1640 2013-11-21 18:22:56 <stonecoldpat> my basic point is at the moment i wouldnt get a nfc card - simply because 10cm isnt that secure, someone could just bump me in the street
1641 2013-11-21 18:23:04 <TD> so they prefer to simplify the UX as much as possible (you're not allowed to store CVV codes)
1642 2013-11-21 18:23:25 <TD> and then what?
1643 2013-11-21 18:23:33 <stonecoldpat> go on amazon, and spend their money
1644 2013-11-21 18:23:35 <stonecoldpat> or another website
1645 2013-11-21 18:23:37 <TD> make a purchase at amazon? in the even that they don't catch it, you'd get your money back
1646 2013-11-21 18:23:37 <roconnor> there are many walets that claim RFID protection presuambly through a mesh lining.
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1648 2013-11-21 18:23:58 <TD> but amazon are really good at catching it
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1650 2013-11-21 18:24:22 <phantomcircuit> TD, how many merchants do you think are going to actually be checking contactless EMV payments?
1651 2013-11-21 18:24:25 <phantomcircuit> im guessing ~0
1652 2013-11-21 18:25:07 <TD> why would they need to?
1653 2013-11-21 18:25:21 <TD> we're talking about online card not present fraud based on nfc-skimmed details, right
1654 2013-11-21 18:25:38 <phantomcircuit> TD, oh
1655 2013-11-21 18:26:00 <phantomcircuit> TD, i was saying that you could do card present fraud based on nfc skimmed details because they're never going to check the card
1656 2013-11-21 18:26:17 <TD> the attack is that someone could possibly grab your card details (minus CVV) out of your pocket by getting really close to you, and then use them on amazon or some other retailer that doesn't request CVV or 3DS
1657 2013-11-21 18:26:21 <TD> no
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1659 2013-11-21 18:26:29 <TD> contactless payments do a proper crypto handshake with the chip
1660 2013-11-21 18:26:44 <TD> they're similar to contact txns in that regard
1661 2013-11-21 18:26:56 <phantomcircuit> TD, right but if you have everything but the CVV (which is what most blackmarket card details are)
1662 2013-11-21 18:26:58 <TD> they're actually upgrading it to be over an ECDHE based tunnel in future
1663 2013-11-21 18:27:18 <TD> you can't do card present fraud with just that
1664 2013-11-21 18:27:23 <phantomcircuit> then the classic attack of giving the card to a pretty 20 something to go buy stuff at the mall works again
1665 2013-11-21 18:27:23 <TD> (we're assuming europe here)
1666 2013-11-21 18:27:28 <phantomcircuit> oh
1667 2013-11-21 18:27:34 <phantomcircuit> yeah that might not work in europe
1668 2013-11-21 18:27:41 <phantomcircuit> otoh the cvv is only 3 digits
1669 2013-11-21 18:27:41 <TD> yes the USA is hosed. but they also are sucking at deploying NFC cards too
1670 2013-11-21 18:27:51 <phantomcircuit> so if you got enough of them
1671 2013-11-21 18:27:56 <TD> so we ignore them in any discussion of advanced security :)
1672 2013-11-21 18:27:57 <stonecoldpat> you would get your money back eventually, but a lot more damage could be done to it. the fact somebody has your card details - opens you up to a lot of fraud
1673 2013-11-21 18:27:59 <phantomcircuit> you'd get about 1/1000
1674 2013-11-21 18:28:30 <TD> stonecoldpat: security is a balance. you're ignoring that retailers that choose to ignore CVV/3DS can do so because they have other ways to stop stolen details being used
1675 2013-11-21 18:28:38 <TD> stonecoldpat: so in practice the UX/security tradeoff is pretty decent
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1727 2013-11-21 19:09:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|19:59:23 <TD> stonecoldpat: these newspaper stories are written by idiots. it was the same for passports. "zomg phones can read your passport!" missing detail: if you have physical access to the document, in which case, you could take a photo of it
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1729 2013-11-21 19:10:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Additionally, IIRC, you actually *do* need to take a photo of it
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1731 2013-11-21 19:11:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(At least, scan the MRZ or type in the information)
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1754 2013-11-21 19:24:46 <Happzz> why does bitcoin-qt copy tx ids with a trailing -000
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1756 2013-11-21 19:25:39 <roconnor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW3RGbQTLhE
1757 2013-11-21 19:25:55 <Apocalyptic> Happzz, very good question, been wondering myself for quite some time
1758 2013-11-21 19:26:05 <sipa> Happzz: it's the output index
1759 2013-11-21 19:26:38 <Happzz> sipa what does that mean
1760 2013-11-21 19:27:01 <sipa> transactions have inputs and outputs
1761 2013-11-21 19:27:24 <sipa> a ledger entry in bitcoin-qt corresponds to a specific output that is crediting you
1762 2013-11-21 19:27:34 <sipa> so just the txid isn't enough to identify it
1763 2013-11-21 19:28:13 <sipa> the fromat it's using is very unusual though
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1768 2013-11-21 19:31:41 <Emi> Hey
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1772 2013-11-21 19:35:01 <Apocalyptic> sipa, i don't see how the txid isn't enough
1773 2013-11-21 19:35:35 <sipa> depends for what
1774 2013-11-21 19:35:52 <sipa> it's just informational... if you want the txid, then obviously the txid is enough
1775 2013-11-21 19:35:56 <Apocalyptic> oh just read you sentence again
1776 2013-11-21 19:36:16 <Apocalyptic> yeah it looked like you were saying the txid isn't enough to identify the tx at first
1777 2013-11-21 19:36:37 <sipa> no; it's not enough to identify the output that credits you
1778 2013-11-21 19:36:53 <Apocalyptic> indeed
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1802 2013-11-21 19:51:56 <bokutou> Hi all. I've been working on a project for a little while that the bitcoin grant has been kind enough to host. http://forums.bitcoingrant.org/about
1803 2013-11-21 19:52:20 <bokutou> The forum uses a new bitcoin-based authentication system that I'm currently calling BitAuth
1804 2013-11-21 19:52:57 <Happzz> gribble's been using that for years :o
1805 2013-11-21 19:53:18 <bokutou> the name is taken?
1806 2013-11-21 19:53:45 <Happzz> not the name
1807 2013-11-21 19:53:47 <Happzz> the concept
1808 2013-11-21 19:54:09 <Happzz> http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/Beginners_Guide#Registration.2C_authentication.2C_and_validation
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1810 2013-11-21 19:54:39 <Happzz> more specifically
1811 2013-11-21 19:54:39 <Happzz> http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_authentication#GPG_authentication_2
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1813 2013-11-21 19:55:09 <Happzz> it uses the same shit for bitcoin signing
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1815 2013-11-21 19:55:29 <Happzz> there, bokutou - http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/Bitcoin_address_authentication
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1822 2013-11-21 19:57:37 <alexwaters> i quite like the new bitauth user experience ;)
1823 2013-11-21 19:57:51 <alexwaters> i love gribble too, but they're very different applications
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1836 2013-11-21 20:02:32 <bokutou> gribble's system is IRC based. I think it's awesome, and I want it to move onto the web.
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1839 2013-11-21 20:10:14 <bokutou> thank you alexwaters, I spent a lot of time on the UX!
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1856 2013-11-21 20:27:23 <bokutou> Happzz: thanks for pointing out gribble, I thought it still used gpg
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1901 2013-11-21 21:37:24 <Rebroad> What do people think of this? https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/pull/80/files
1902 2013-11-21 21:37:42 <Rebroad> basically, their latest client rejects connections from all previous versions!
1903 2013-11-21 21:38:28 <gmaxwell> Rebroad: it's a special case for them because they did a non-gradual switch to a 0.8 based codebase.
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1905 2013-11-21 21:39:05 <Rebroad> gmaxwell, oh.. so you think it's safe/ok their approach?
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1907 2013-11-21 21:40:25 <Rebroad> are there ways to merge with upstream but with specifiying a list of commits (in the upstream) that you don't want to be included/merged?
1908 2013-11-21 21:40:38 <sipa> no
1909 2013-11-21 21:40:43 <sipa> you need to rebase for that
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1915 2013-11-21 21:51:47 <squeakytoy> Hey all. Lets say I would like to list all the total coins in certain addresses on a site, where is the easier/"best" place to fetch this information? Starting bitcoind.exe, or are there online APIs somewhere that can be used? Just curious.
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1933 2013-11-21 22:07:03 <Rebroad> sipa, thanks.. I think I meant rebase. Is there a way to rebase but perhaps specifying a file that contains a list of commits that you don't want to be included?
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1938 2013-11-21 22:14:15 <kuzetsa> squeakytoy: RPC command "listunspent"
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1940 2013-11-21 22:14:47 <squeakytoy> so running the daemon is the pref. way
1941 2013-11-21 22:15:15 <kuzetsa> dnuno
1942 2013-11-21 22:15:20 <kuzetsa> sure?
1943 2013-11-21 22:15:29 <squeakytoy> i guess so :-)
1944 2013-11-21 22:15:31 <kuzetsa> I've got no idea how to do it any other way
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1946 2013-11-21 22:15:49 <kuzetsa> other than asking blockhain.info's API ... but that seems a kludge
1947 2013-11-21 22:16:12 <kuzetsa> and also it means using a 3rd party as a single point of failure
1948 2013-11-21 22:16:46 <kuzetsa> without somehow scanning the blockchain, there's no good way to know the balance associated with and address
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1951 2013-11-21 22:17:13 <kuzetsa> so I usually just let my wallet's "listunspent" give me the answer since I don't have a "watching wallet" software I'm happy with
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1994 2013-11-21 22:50:08 <squeakytoy> Hm, isnt possible to get the current balance for any given address using the RPC?
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1997 2013-11-21 22:51:59 <ekkis> gavinandresen: hei dude. wondered whether you got the mail from Scott Hanselman. he'd love to have you on his show, and quite surprisingly, even in the world of developers there is a great majority that don't know squat about btc, so the exposure would be great
1998 2013-11-21 22:52:16 <ekkis> gavinandresen: in case you missed it, do you want me to resend?
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2014 2013-11-21 23:07:47 <sipa> squeakytoy: bitcoin internally doesn't reason in terms of addresses or balances, so no
2015 2013-11-21 23:08:01 <sipa> squeakytoy: it would require a pretty expensive index to track that
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2017 2013-11-21 23:09:17 <squeakytoy> thats why you need to add the private key first?
2018 2013-11-21 23:09:35 <squeakytoy> hm
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2020 2013-11-21 23:09:49 <sipa> the wallet tracks all coins/transactions that are of interest to you
2021 2013-11-21 23:10:00 <sipa> so you can compute the balance and ledger quickly
2022 2013-11-21 23:10:30 <squeakytoy> hmm
2023 2013-11-21 23:10:30 <sipa> but being able to do that for arbitrary addresses requires a multi-gigabyte index
2024 2013-11-21 23:10:50 <sipa> there is a patch to allow the wallet to import addresses without private key
2025 2013-11-21 23:11:00 <sipa> so it tracks "watch-only" addresses
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2027 2013-11-21 23:11:48 <squeakytoy> but i guess thats not the 0.8 version
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2029 2013-11-21 23:12:50 <sipa> no
2030 2013-11-21 23:12:57 <sipa> there is other software that can do that, though
2031 2013-11-21 23:13:52 <squeakytoy> just curious, are there any other software on the same level as the bitcoin-qt app?
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2033 2013-11-21 23:14:36 <sipa> i guess there's 4 major desktop wallet clients: bitcoin-qt, armory, multibit, electrum
2034 2013-11-21 23:14:52 <squeakytoy> armory requires the bitcoin app i think
2035 2013-11-21 23:15:08 <sipa> indeed, for validation
2036 2013-11-21 23:15:12 <ekkis> I've been curious. are the private keys across these 4 systems compatible?
2037 2013-11-21 23:15:20 <sipa> yes, but wallets aren't
2038 2013-11-21 23:15:37 <squeakytoy> wow, if the priate kys waren't compatible, that would be pretty bad, wouldnt?
2039 2013-11-21 23:15:59 <squeakytoy> v*e*
2040 2013-11-21 23:16:30 <sipa> dunno
2041 2013-11-21 23:16:36 coin1 has joined
2042 2013-11-21 23:17:11 <ekkis> so if I back up my private key and my machine gets destroyed, later I couldn't install some other wallet and use my private key? I'd have to get the same software that created it
2043 2013-11-21 23:17:27 dutchbrit_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2044 2013-11-21 23:17:34 <sipa> if it's just one private key, and you import that key, you're fine
2045 2013-11-21 23:17:36 <ekkis> which also means that I couldn't have the same private key in my laptop as on my phone
2046 2013-11-21 23:17:41 <sipa> but most wallets don't use a single key
2047 2013-11-21 23:17:53 <sipa> typically you'll almost use a new key for every transaction behind the scenes
2048 2013-11-21 23:18:17 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2049 2013-11-21 23:18:19 <sipa> and very few software deals well with its funds being spent remotely
2050 2013-11-21 23:18:28 <squeakytoy> ekkis, i _think_ its okay. Using bitcoin-q i have imported private keys into wallets
2051 2013-11-21 23:18:34 <sipa> you're much better off with having separate wallets on each system
2052 2013-11-21 23:18:42 <sipa> and having backups of the wallet of each
2053 2013-11-21 23:19:04 <ekkis> right. that's what I've done to this point
2054 2013-11-21 23:19:11 dutchbrit__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2055 2013-11-21 23:19:29 <squeakytoy> off-topic, but it sounds strange.
2056 2013-11-21 23:19:35 <ekkis> right
2057 2013-11-21 23:19:35 <sipa> anything else is very dangerous, unless you really understand how wallet applications work behind the scenes
2058 2013-11-21 23:19:56 <squeakytoy> okay, a "private key" might be tampered by a wallet, so it only makes sense for the wallet, but not for the protocol. That i can understand.
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2061 2013-11-21 23:20:45 <squeakytoy> but i thought the whole beuty with bitcoin was that you could use your "account" regardless of wallet
2062 2013-11-21 23:21:02 <sipa> we're working towards making that safe and possible
2063 2013-11-21 23:21:08 <squeakytoy> protocol-wise, you only need the private key, right?
2064 2013-11-21 23:21:20 <sipa> the point is that a wallet consists of a ton of private keys
2065 2013-11-21 23:21:39 <sipa> and moves coins between them to protect privacy
2066 2013-11-21 23:22:12 <ekkis> sipa: so each address in a wallet is, essentially, a private key?
2067 2013-11-21 23:22:22 <dutchbrit_> Hey guys
2068 2013-11-21 23:22:26 <squeakytoy> so basically, the best advice is, if you want to switch wallet, gets a new address and move your coins?
2069 2013-11-21 23:22:31 <dutchbrit_> I'm trying to add an existing wallet.dat file on my ubuntu system - in my home directory - ./bitcoin/wallet.dat - but when I list my accounts (bitcoind listaccounts) I can't see it - just some new wallet
2070 2013-11-21 23:22:37 <dutchbrit_> Does anyone have any pointers for me?
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2074 2013-11-21 23:23:11 <sipa> ekkis: yes, but addresses are what you use to send coins to a wallet; they are not things that hold balances
2075 2013-11-21 23:23:31 <sipa> (technically, they are, but forget that for now, it will make you misunderstand things)
2076 2013-11-21 23:23:32 <ekkis> sipa: I gather the address then is just a digest of the underlying key-pair
2077 2013-11-21 23:23:39 <sipa> ekkis: indeed
2078 2013-11-21 23:23:46 <ekkis> got it
2079 2013-11-21 23:24:00 <sipa> ekkis: but the protocol has at no point a "balance" or an address even
2080 2013-11-21 23:24:22 <sipa> ekkis: there are just coins, and coins get assigned to scripts (addresses can be seen as templates for specific simple scripts)
2081 2013-11-21 23:24:35 <sipa> to spend a coin, you must prove you own it
2082 2013-11-21 23:25:13 CheckDavid has joined
2083 2013-11-21 23:25:58 <dutchbrit_> No one here with experience importing a wallet.dat file on ubuntu?
2084 2013-11-21 23:26:02 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2086 2013-11-21 23:26:08 * squeakytoy shakes his head :<
2087 2013-11-21 23:26:12 <ekkis> right. I understand the protocol itself doesn't store balances. the balances are recomposed from transactions which can be read from the blockchain. is that right? since the addresses are stored in the blocks then one need only read the entire block chain looking for transactions with that address to put together a balance
2088 2013-11-21 23:26:26 Urushiol-zZzz is now known as Urushiol
2089 2013-11-21 23:26:40 <sipa> ekkis: that's one way to see it, yes
2090 2013-11-21 23:26:47 <sipa> dutchbrit_: are you sure you put it in the right place?
2091 2013-11-21 23:27:14 <dutchbrit_> It's in ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat
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2094 2013-11-21 23:27:36 <sipa> that sounds right
2095 2013-11-21 23:27:57 MobPhone has joined
2096 2013-11-21 23:28:01 <dutchbrit_> i tried restarting bitcoind but no luck...
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2099 2013-11-21 23:30:07 <squeakytoy> dutchbrit_, i just read there is a -datadir=d:\BitCoinData flag you might want to try
2100 2013-11-21 23:30:15 bit_coinxxx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2102 2013-11-21 23:30:42 <dutchbrit_> How does that work?
2103 2013-11-21 23:30:53 <ekkis> sipa: one thing I've been meaning to research is how mixers work
2104 2013-11-21 23:31:09 <squeakytoy> dutchbrit_, i just read there is a bitcoin -datadir=./bitcoin/ listaccounts i guess
2105 2013-11-21 23:31:36 <squeakytoy> dutchbrit_, bitcoin -datadir=./bitcoin/ listaccounts - i guess
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2111 2013-11-21 23:33:45 <ekkis> sipa: I read a little about ZeroCoin the other day
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2113 2013-11-21 23:34:34 <dutchbrit_> I'm getting error: Error parsing JSON:-
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2116 2013-11-21 23:37:06 <dutchbrit_> Weird shizzle
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