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9 2013-11-25 00:10:17 <ers35> gmaxwell: I spun up a testnet node at 142.4.212.125:18333 or [2607:5300:60:117d::1]:18333 if you still need one.
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16 2013-11-25 00:12:22 <gmaxwell> ers35: thanks. :)
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50 2013-11-25 00:24:49 <warren> Ryan52: ping
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72 2013-11-25 00:44:30 <Ryan52> warren: pong. progress?
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74 2013-11-25 00:45:52 <Ryan52> warren: my mac sits here happily syncing from the network, with no corruption yet. I plan to throw some more force at it again tomorrow.
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81 2013-11-25 00:48:08 <diki> I just opened blockchain.info and was greeted by a Windows XP loading bar for a few seconds including the Windows XP logo, I was like wtf?
82 2013-11-25 00:48:48 * Ryan52 heard the domain expired without anybody picking it up, people said it was broken anyways or something.
83 2013-11-25 00:49:13 <diki> Ryan52:That was for blockexplorer.com
84 2013-11-25 00:50:43 <Ryan52> diki: oh, right, sorry, my brain stopped at block...
85 2013-11-25 00:50:49 * Ryan52 feels silly now
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87 2013-11-25 00:55:04 <Burritoh> diki: that happens when their site crashes and comes back.
88 2013-11-25 00:55:24 <diki> so it's intentional and not say added by a malicious person?
89 2013-11-25 00:55:55 <Burritoh> diki: yeah, intentional, if you are talking about the possibility of defacement
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91 2013-11-25 00:56:07 <Burritoh> diki: slightly better than Bitstamp's "And it's gone" sparking panic all round.
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106 2013-11-25 01:12:08 <diki> Anyway, pardon me for not searching but how do I read the blockchain by writing my own custom program?
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134 2013-11-25 01:18:23 <gulli> Was wondering about extra security regarding HD wallets. Start using a node, say, 150 nodes down the tree as the starting point where the ecternal and internal chains start
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137 2013-11-25 01:18:35 <gulli> Even if an attacked would figure out the seed
138 2013-11-25 01:18:47 <gulli> he would then need to find out what node to start at
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142 2013-11-25 01:19:02 <sipa> that's security through obscurity
143 2013-11-25 01:19:20 <sipa> you've essemtially just made the secret be the seed + the starting poimt
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146 2013-11-25 01:19:30 <sipa> without adding any security
147 2013-11-25 01:19:31 <gulli> yup
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150 2013-11-25 01:19:56 <sipa> if you think your seed is not secure enough, make it longer
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240 2013-11-25 02:25:53 <BW^-> BW^-: *,gmaxwell: what is meant in the topic with "There is no from address"?
241 2013-11-25 02:25:58 <BW^-> *,gmaxwell: what is meant in the topic with "There is no from address"?
242 2013-11-25 02:27:02 <gmaxwell> BW^-: why are you directing that at me?
243 2013-11-25 02:27:31 <gmaxwell> I didn't put that there, I just changed the topic last ... though I can explain it:
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247 2013-11-25 02:28:41 <gmaxwell> Transactions don't contain any from address in them. Attempts to infer a 'from address' must use the historical transaction data and are risky to use for things like refunds because they sometimes result in sending funds to the wrong party or into a black hole, and people have lost money from doing that.
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250 2013-11-25 02:28:57 <BW^-> how do you define transaction radar?
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252 2013-11-25 02:29:24 <BW^-> mhm
253 2013-11-25 02:29:27 <gmaxwell> It's sometimes a FAQ in here where people show up asking where in a transaction they can read the 'from' fromâ to which the answer is: you can't, if you want to know who paid you the correct way to do that in bitcoin is to distinguish them based on what address they paid.
254 2013-11-25 02:29:51 EmberChrysus2 is now known as dmzpkts
255 2013-11-25 02:30:01 <BW^-> gmaxwell: is there any annotation or alike tha tcould be added to a TX script to communicate to the receiving party which the refund-to address is *safely*?
256 2013-11-25 02:30:37 <BW^-> ] "...is to distinguish them based on what address they paid."
257 2013-11-25 02:30:43 <BW^-> gmaxwell: mhm, you mean, what address they paid *to*
258 2013-11-25 02:30:43 <BW^-> mhm
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260 2013-11-25 02:31:51 <gmaxwell> BW^-: things like the payment protocol were created to provide that information out of band. (though even without them the best practice is to simply require the sending party provide a refund address before you give them an address to pay to)
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296 2013-11-25 03:11:25 <warren> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=337294.0;all MacOS X corruption fix bounty now increased to 10 BTC + 200 LTC thanks to new a pledge from BitcoinTalk.
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303 2013-11-25 03:16:09 <gmaxwell> warren: can you update the original post
304 2013-11-25 03:16:28 <BW^-> what do we mean by "height" here?
305 2013-11-25 03:16:52 <BW^-> in the context of retrieving the history of all transactions that regard one single bitcoin address
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307 2013-11-25 03:17:37 <warren> gmaxwell: yea
308 2013-11-25 03:17:39 <BW^-> i mean, are we talking about an integer index counter relative to now
309 2013-11-25 03:17:45 <gmaxwell> warren: and maybe submit to hacker news? "Solve a stupid database corruption bug on OSX, recieve ~$10k in Bitcoin and Litcoin"
310 2013-11-25 03:17:46 <BW^-> or are we talking about a globally unique ID??
311 2013-11-25 03:17:58 <warren> gmaxwell: URL?
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313 2013-11-25 03:18:29 <gmaxwell> BW^-: it's not clear enough to me what you're talking about, but usually when we talk about height we're talking about the absolute blockchain height (in blocks) starting from the genesis block.
314 2013-11-25 03:18:42 <gmaxwell> warren: https://news.ycombinator.com/submit ?
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316 2013-11-25 03:19:18 <BW^-> aha!!!
317 2013-11-25 03:19:25 <BW^-> gmaxwell: awesomeness
318 2013-11-25 03:20:02 <BW^-> gmaxwell: so this way, if you have made a safe retrieval of all transactions regarding a particular address to a particular height X
319 2013-11-25 03:20:28 <BW^-> then you know that afterwards you will ever only need to make new checks from that height X to whatever new height new blocks get to
320 2013-11-25 03:20:30 <BW^-> mhm
321 2013-11-25 03:21:01 <BW^-> gmaxwell: what about if there's blockchain forks that then heal themselves, that could cause lots of undefined qualities to any counting of heights couldn't it?
322 2013-11-25 03:21:17 <gmaxwell> BW^-: we rescan a bit before the recorded height in such cases.
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324 2013-11-25 03:21:43 <BW^-> gmaxwell: when does that happen?
325 2013-11-25 03:21:58 <gmaxwell> though thats only an issue if the wallet and blockchain on a node have been seperated.
326 2013-11-25 03:22:11 <gmaxwell> otherwise the wallet would have witnessed any reorg regardless.
327 2013-11-25 03:24:02 <BW^-> gmaxwell: wait, can you please re-express that as an example?
328 2013-11-25 03:24:10 <BW^-> just to be sure i understood what you meant
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330 2013-11-25 03:27:38 <diki> Anyway, pardon me for not searching but how do I read the blockchain by writing my own custom program?
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336 2013-11-25 03:36:02 <warren> gmaxwell: could you please submit it there?
337 2013-11-25 03:36:59 <gmaxwell> warren: sure
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339 2013-11-25 03:38:04 <kjj> diki: fopen()
340 2013-11-25 03:38:11 <diki> very funny
341 2013-11-25 03:38:21 <diki> I do know that blocks are concatenated
342 2013-11-25 03:38:27 <diki> but I'd need a bit more than that
343 2013-11-25 03:39:38 <gmaxwell> warren: https://news.ycombinator.com/newest
344 2013-11-25 03:39:39 <kjj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101514.0
345 2013-11-25 03:39:56 <gmaxwell> oh someone else did.. /me deletes mine
346 2013-11-25 03:40:16 <gmaxwell> haha there is a cypherpunks account on hackernews! :P
347 2013-11-25 03:40:49 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
348 2013-11-25 03:41:39 <gmaxwell> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6792325
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358 2013-11-25 03:49:36 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, would anybody be opposed to adding some paranoid checks to leveldb?
359 2013-11-25 03:49:57 <phantomcircuit> i *might* be able to make them backwards compatible
360 2013-11-25 03:51:22 <phantomcircuit> mostly i want to add sequence numbers to the journal
361 2013-11-25 03:51:32 <phantomcircuit> which should also make a bunch of stuff safer
362 2013-11-25 03:51:42 <phantomcircuit> im actually kind of surprised they didn't already have them
363 2013-11-25 03:51:44 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: if they were compatible... well, (1) we could at least use them for debugging. (2) though I'd really like them to go upstream.
364 2013-11-25 03:52:08 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i have not a clue how to get a patch accepted upstream
365 2013-11-25 03:52:14 <phantomcircuit> or rather even where to submit such a patch
366 2013-11-25 03:52:47 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
367 2013-11-25 03:52:57 <gmaxwell> maybe first you have to get a job at google, as in some google open source projects. :P (well, I think I've seen them take patches submitted on their bugtracker)
368 2013-11-25 03:53:29 <phantomcircuit> lolol
369 2013-11-25 03:54:20 Botolo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
370 2013-11-25 03:55:51 <kjj> gmaxwell: do you have any scripts for BIP10?
371 2013-11-25 03:56:36 <gmaxwell> kjj: no. alas.
372 2013-11-25 03:56:57 <kjj> ok. if all goes well tomorrow, I'm going to start on some
373 2013-11-25 03:58:16 <kjj> I just wish his example code wasn't in python
374 2013-11-25 03:59:17 <kjj> heh, turns out not to matter. his example links are all 404 now
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414 2013-11-25 04:44:44 <gmaxwell> any idea why configure is doing this on my arm/ubuntu system?
415 2013-11-25 04:44:45 <gmaxwell> checking for boostlib >= 1.20.0... yes
416 2013-11-25 04:44:45 <gmaxwell> checking whether the Boost::System library is available... yes
417 2013-11-25 04:44:45 <gmaxwell> configure: error: Could not find a version of the library!
418 2013-11-25 04:44:58 tsche has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
419 2013-11-25 04:45:01 <gmaxwell> the config.log appears unhelpful, the last test appears to have worked...
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426 2013-11-25 04:55:02 <cfields> gmaxwell: could you paste the config.log?
427 2013-11-25 04:55:13 Application has joined
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429 2013-11-25 04:57:28 <gmaxwell> cfields: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/config.bad.txt
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432 2013-11-25 05:03:30 <cfields> gmaxwell: is it a multiarch layout?
433 2013-11-25 05:03:41 <gmaxwell> no.
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439 2013-11-25 05:08:25 <cfields> gmaxwell: mm. what's the actual path to libboost_system ?
440 2013-11-25 05:08:39 <gmaxwell> ...
441 2013-11-25 05:08:59 <gmaxwell> the system doesn't appear to have it! ... I didn't check because it said yes!
442 2013-11-25 05:09:32 <abc4btc> gmaxwell et al, the leveldb corruption bounty hit #1 on HN fyi, maybe some good attention will get dedicated there
443 2013-11-25 05:09:38 <cfields> heh
444 2013-11-25 05:09:45 dparrish has joined
445 2013-11-25 05:09:49 <cfields> gmaxwell: it can compile but not link. meaning headers but no lib
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447 2013-11-25 05:11:08 <midnightmagic> i have a multi-arch layout that requires manual intervention also.
448 2013-11-25 05:11:10 <midnightmagic> fwiw
449 2013-11-25 05:11:39 patcon_ is now known as patcon
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451 2013-11-25 05:11:55 <cfields> i'm really not sure what can be done about that without a nasty hack to inject the host string into the search path
452 2013-11-25 05:12:04 patcon_ is now known as patcon
453 2013-11-25 05:12:21 <cfields> that's a distro problem.. moving to multilib before the lib can announce itself. pkgconfig should be a minimum...
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465 2013-11-25 05:33:26 <cfields> BlueMatt: ping
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484 2013-11-25 05:44:53 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: wouldn't be good for people to know if mining pools announce their policy on transaction fees?
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509 2013-11-25 06:19:14 <gmaxwell> So, I've had two people report to me out of memory crashes on 32-bit during initial sync. I haven't reproduce yet, but what appears to be happening is that it recieves a new block and then goes pulling orphans into memory from the tip of the chain backwards, and using up a ton of memory in the process.
510 2013-11-25 06:20:47 <diki> malicious nodes?
511 2013-11-25 06:22:05 <CodeShark> I guess it would make most sense to first connect the headers only and then check signatures going forward
512 2013-11-25 06:24:22 dparrish has joined
513 2013-11-25 06:25:28 <CodeShark> having to load a bunch of unconnected blocks in their entirety going backwards seems not only wasteful of memory - it also seems to present potential attack vectors
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516 2013-11-25 06:29:02 <cfields> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/b33b9a6fefbe832bf45a6c7717d0537f27597bff
517 2013-11-25 06:29:14 <cfields> corruptionPossible is uninitialized. Seems to lead to a few undefined branches, no?
518 2013-11-25 06:30:52 <warren> gmaxwell: would https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2910 make any difference in that?
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521 2013-11-25 06:35:12 <cfields> BlueMatt: ping ^^
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542 2013-11-25 07:00:33 <warren> gmaxwell: so I've been testing the external IP patch, it works as expected for nodes that have a public accessible IP address, but if behind NAT I don't see advertisements on the receiving end at all.
543 2013-11-25 07:00:35 reneg has quit (Quit: reneg)
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545 2013-11-25 07:01:16 <warren> gmaxwell: although I'm testing it on bitcoin 0.8.5
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569 2013-11-25 07:32:15 <diki> in parsing the blockchain, how do I proceed to read the files? As in, how many bytes do I step in at a time? Just 4 to try and find the magic bytes?
570 2013-11-25 07:32:36 <diki> and then proceed as per the protcol
571 2013-11-25 07:32:43 <diki> or perhaps another method?
572 2013-11-25 07:35:10 <lianj> magic_head, size = buf.unpack("a4I")
573 2013-11-25 07:35:35 <lianj> 4 byte magic head followed by length integer
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582 2013-11-25 07:45:57 <diki> Reading the wiki article on the block hashing algorithm and is it me, or someone derped when he wrote this? "Note that the actual hash, which is a 256-bit number, has lots of leading zero bits. When stored or printed as a big-endian hexadecimal constant, but it has leading zero bytes and if stored or printed as little-endian, these are the trailing zero bytes."
583 2013-11-25 07:48:32 jk1275 has joined
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585 2013-11-25 07:50:27 <diki> Wouldn't it be more correct to say
586 2013-11-25 07:50:35 <diki> "Note that the hash, which is a 256-bit number, has lots of leading zero bits. When stored or printed as a big-endian hexadecimal constant, it has leading zero bytes and if stored or printed as little-endian, there are the trailing zero bytes."
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589 2013-11-25 07:52:17 <diki> I just think someone lost his trail(no pun intended) of thought when he was writing that and made it sound a bit confusing.
590 2013-11-25 07:53:11 <diki> lianj:Thanks man.
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642 2013-11-25 08:43:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: what uhuntu version?
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647 2013-11-25 08:44:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: that oom caused by cknnecting orphans should be fixed by headers-first, if i ever get to it
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656 2013-11-25 08:50:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, I know. (I actually was reminded to mention the issue by gavin saying HF wasn't 0.9 critical in #bitcoin-wizards)
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658 2013-11-25 08:53:56 <shesek> is there a reason to avoid libdb5 if I'm not using the wallet functionality?
659 2013-11-25 08:54:55 <gmaxwell> wtf arm:
660 2013-11-25 08:54:56 <gmaxwell> 2013-11-25 08:51:08 keypool added key 15, size=15
661 2013-11-25 08:54:56 <gmaxwell> 2013-11-25 08:51:10 keypool added key 16, size=16
662 2013-11-25 08:54:56 <gmaxwell> 2013-11-25 08:51:13 keypool added key 17, size=17
663 2013-11-25 08:55:11 <gmaxwell> shesek: no, though you can use nowallet if you're not using the wallet.
664 2013-11-25 08:56:00 <wumpus> at this point you do still need to link against bdb if you're not using the wallet, but it indeed doesn't matter what version
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667 2013-11-25 08:58:46 <shesek> great, thanks.
668 2013-11-25 08:59:25 <shesek> and I didn't know about disablewallet, I will indeed use that
669 2013-11-25 08:59:39 <shesek> it should probably be mentioned somewhere in Running_Bitcoin?
670 2013-11-25 09:01:27 <Luke-Jr> it's not released yet
671 2013-11-25 09:01:36 Anduck has joined
672 2013-11-25 09:01:38 <gmaxwell> 2013-11-25 08:57:19 - Verify 3386 txins: 27347.50ms (8.077ms/txin)
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674 2013-11-25 09:02:46 <warren> gmaxwell: would ashley holman's patch prevent that issue until we have HF?
675 2013-11-25 09:03:18 <gmaxwell> HF?
676 2013-11-25 09:03:26 <warren> headers first
677 2013-11-25 09:03:28 <gmaxwell> oh, no.
678 2013-11-25 09:03:50 <gmaxwell> a non-hearders first fix would likely be complicated. :(
679 2013-11-25 09:04:28 <warren> gmaxwell: btw, I might have been misinterpreting what I was seeing, but I'm not seeing advertisements from externalip nodes that are behind NAT.
680 2013-11-25 09:04:53 <warren> gmaxwell: works fine for !NAT
681 2013-11-25 09:05:16 <shesek> oh. I'm already running on a non standard release (with searchrawtransactions), I'm not sure I want to risk trying to merge them together :P
682 2013-11-25 09:06:05 <kuzetsa> warren: yeah, I've seen some strange issues with advertizements from ndoes beihind NAT too
683 2013-11-25 09:06:15 <kuzetsa> *nodes (and other typos)
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741 2013-11-25 09:59:13 <stonecoldpat> hiya, when your using the signrawtransaction method - is the input... <hex of param 2, [{"txid":tx_id_hex_here,"vout":index_of_output_in_transaction_aka_0,"scriptPubKey":hex_of_pubKeyScript}], private_key>
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745 2013-11-25 10:02:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|stonecoldpat: the first parameter to the command is the raw transaction in hex to sign
746 2013-11-25 10:02:57 <stonecoldpat> would you call createrawtransaction first - and then use signrawtransaction?
747 2013-11-25 10:03:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Step 1 is createrawtransaction
748 2013-11-25 10:03:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Step 2 is signrawtransaction
749 2013-11-25 10:04:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|For signrawtransaction, if all the transactions you're spending are known to the node and all the privkeys are in your wallet, you just need to provide the raw transaction
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751 2013-11-25 10:05:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you're spending a txout that the node doesn't know about, you need to provide the scriptPubKey
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753 2013-11-25 10:06:32 <stonecoldpat> ahh i understand, thank you
754 2013-11-25 10:06:52 <stonecoldpat> on friday evening i was trying to sign a raw transaction i created by hand (which was obviously not correct)
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779 2013-11-25 10:39:14 <BW^-> any page listing stats over time to confirmation vs TXFEE?
780 2013-11-25 10:39:15 <BW^-> live
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813 2013-11-25 11:34:21 <stonecoldpat> on a laptop - every time you rebuild bitcoin - does it need to rescan?
814 2013-11-25 11:34:30 <stonecoldpat> or will it just look at a location for the info it had previously
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825 2013-11-25 11:41:21 <Luke-Jr> stonecoldpat: you shouldn't need to rescan.
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847 2013-11-25 12:00:17 <gmaxwell> "Although both parties in a Bitcoin transaction are anonymous, the details of all transactions â the address of the buyer and seller, the quantity, and the date â are publicly known, chronicled in a master ledger now overseen by BlockChain.info."
848 2013-11-25 12:00:44 <sipa> W T F
849 2013-11-25 12:03:05 <warren> I'm failing to sleep, so I might as well join in the praise.
850 2013-11-25 12:05:51 <fanquake> gmaxwell I must have missed that⦠who/what is the source?
851 2013-11-25 12:06:12 <sipa> my guess (i haven't actually read it), shamir's paper
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861 2013-11-25 12:08:32 <gmaxwell> A writeup on it, actually not quite that bad.
862 2013-11-25 12:08:42 kinglet_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
863 2013-11-25 12:12:00 <sipa> ?
864 2013-11-25 12:14:15 <gmaxwell> it's some journalist's repeition of it, the paper itself wasn't quite that awful this time.
865 2013-11-25 12:14:57 <sipa> ok
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867 2013-11-25 12:15:44 <fanquake> Assuming everyone saw the osx leveldb bug bounty trending on HN. Looks like plenty of interesting discussion.
868 2013-11-25 12:15:50 <fanquake> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6792325
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870 2013-11-25 12:18:50 <Luke-Jr> IMO, it is a bug that getblock("000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f") returns "4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b" in the "tx" Array. Thoughts?
871 2013-11-25 12:19:03 <warren> fanquake: nobody went through the trouble of explaining how to reproduce it
872 2013-11-25 12:19:07 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
873 2013-11-25 12:19:41 <fanquake> warren Yea, it looks like the people offering solutions haven't actually experienced the issue themselves.
874 2013-11-25 12:19:42 <warren> fanquake: by actually testing OMG3 or master and finding configurations that corrupt and !corrupt
875 2013-11-25 12:20:11 <fanquake> warren I've been testing master for the last few days. Haven't been able to corrupt it yet.
876 2013-11-25 12:22:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, I agree thats a bugish.
877 2013-11-25 12:22:53 <sipa> gmaxwell, Luke-Jr: unsure; the genesis _block_ does contain that transaction; it's just that that block at no point impacts the chainstate
878 2013-11-25 12:23:41 <warren> gmaxwell: sorry to mention again, I actually examined the addr broadcasts from externalip nodes and I'm not convinced it's working from externalip nodes that are behind NAT.
879 2013-11-25 12:23:47 <shesek> there are at least 4-5 Bitcoin-related story on HN's homepage at any given moment
880 2013-11-25 12:24:34 <shesek> they should consider changing their name to bitcoin news
881 2013-11-25 12:24:49 <gmaxwell> warren: I hear you, I confirm reception of your message. I haven't had a chance to look at it yet.
882 2013-11-25 12:25:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: we can just consider 4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b to be a "no transactions at all" merkle root.. :P
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884 2013-11-25 12:26:24 <sipa> Luke-Jr, gmaxwell: i think the only thing to make it completely consistent is to have getblock(genesishash) return nothing
885 2013-11-25 12:26:27 <warren> gmaxwell: sorry.
886 2013-11-25 12:26:39 <warren> gmaxwell: thank you.
887 2013-11-25 12:26:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, it should return other info!
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889 2013-11-25 12:26:53 <sipa> Luke-Jr, gmaxwell: the alternative is accepting that the blockchain and the chainstate are inconsistent, in which case getrawtransaction(genesiscoinbase) should also work
890 2013-11-25 12:27:13 <warren> gmaxwell: if you're busy I can toss some coins to Ryan52 to attempt to figure it out.
891 2013-11-25 12:27:35 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is there a problem with just defining "4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b" to be the merkleroot of a null list?
892 2013-11-25 12:28:14 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that would make the genesis block invalid :)
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894 2013-11-25 12:28:22 <sipa> as blocks need 1 transaction
895 2013-11-25 12:28:29 <sipa> (well, it's already dealt with specially)
896 2013-11-25 12:28:34 <sipa> but i don't think this adds anything
897 2013-11-25 12:28:37 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not in this case. :P
898 2013-11-25 12:29:06 <Luke-Jr> I'm just thinking that getting rid of the parsable "transaction" is ideal
899 2013-11-25 12:29:15 <gmaxwell> we can't win on this, if it doesn't return there will be constant complaining from people expect it to, if it does there will be less frequent complaining from people who notice the utxo doesn't add up or something. :)
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902 2013-11-25 12:29:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: saying "the genesis block has 0 transactions" seems to be a win :P
903 2013-11-25 12:31:03 <Luke-Jr> we could even probably safely make the "blocks must have at least 1 transaction" limitation part of the "block height in coinbase" height-check
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905 2013-11-25 12:31:24 <sipa> meh, feels like a hack
906 2013-11-25 12:31:32 <Luke-Jr> less of a hack than it is now :P
907 2013-11-25 12:32:09 <sipa> the genesis block is more accurately modeled as a real block with 1 transaction, with the single except that its prevhash is 0, and it is not processed
908 2013-11-25 12:32:24 <sipa> but this is bikeshedding :)
909 2013-11-25 12:32:49 <sipa> the practical concern of matching people's expectations is making getrawtransaction on the genesiscoinbase work
910 2013-11-25 12:33:10 <sipa> it is not incorrect, as gettxout <genesiscoinbase> 0 will return nothing
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943 2013-11-25 13:11:41 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, this just showed up in my twitter feed https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21517274/img/ripple_is_open_source.png
944 2013-11-25 13:11:51 <HaltingState> ripple is "officially open source!" like for 3rd time, lol
945 2013-11-25 13:12:45 <HaltingState> its like the news articles about those guys the US kills in Afghanistan where the same person is killed 8 times in different press releases over 12 years
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947 2013-11-25 13:14:09 <Emcy> i herd they got bin laden
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968 2013-11-25 13:38:24 <Belxjander> Would it be possible to run multiple blockchains for specific purposes?
969 2013-11-25 13:38:48 <Belxjander> have 1 blockchain aside for people to pollute with the spamgasmic messaging and other things...
970 2013-11-25 13:39:01 <Belxjander> have a Blockchain for Identify Verification ...
971 2013-11-25 13:39:13 <Belxjander> and a Blockchain for existing BTC usage?
972 2013-11-25 13:39:31 <t7> whats to stop people doing those other two things in the existing blockchain ?
973 2013-11-25 13:40:04 <Belxjander> t7: nothing... I was just thinking of seperating them out to avoid spamgasmic overloading of the existing transaction blocks
974 2013-11-25 13:40:48 <t7> well there is namecoin and bitmsg already
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976 2013-11-25 13:40:53 <t7> todo those things
977 2013-11-25 13:41:13 <Belxjander> namecoin is identity bindings?
978 2013-11-25 13:42:11 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
979 2013-11-25 13:42:17 <Emcy> yes
980 2013-11-25 13:42:19 <t7> Alias/Identity: user_name => user_public_identity (email, name, gpg key, BTC-adress, etc)
981 2013-11-25 13:42:58 <Emcy> if you merge mine you can even get ocens of free hashrate
982 2013-11-25 13:43:41 <Belxjander> ocens?
983 2013-11-25 13:43:51 <Belxjander> ???
984 2013-11-25 13:44:23 <Emcy> oceans
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1005 2013-11-25 14:36:39 <TD> sipa : i think your DNS seed is down
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1011 2013-11-25 14:39:22 <sipa> TD: it was; fixed
1012 2013-11-25 14:39:28 <sipa> ... out of disk space
1013 2013-11-25 14:39:30 <TD> thanks
1014 2013-11-25 14:39:32 <TD> ah
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1043 2013-11-25 14:59:39 <jgarzik_> ha!
1044 2013-11-25 14:59:59 <denisx> ha what?
1045 2013-11-25 15:00:01 <jgarzik_> As predicted, Ron/Shamir research linking DPR and Satoshi was apparently crap, http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1reuwq/vigorous_debate_over_shamirrons_supposedly/
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1047 2013-11-25 15:02:20 <sipa> heh, saying 'Ron' made for a moment doubt whether you were talking about the R in RSA
1048 2013-11-25 15:02:24 <sipa> thankfully, not
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1058 2013-11-25 15:10:39 <clocKwize> hey, would it be possible to aggregate my miners in to 1 worker, that can connect to a pool?
1059 2013-11-25 15:11:12 <Luke-Jr> clocKwize: #bitcoin-mining
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1061 2013-11-25 15:11:57 <clocKwize> its more of a dev question, i.e technically possible? any repos I can look at? any ideas how to attack the problem
1062 2013-11-25 15:12:04 <clocKwize> but will ask there too :)
1063 2013-11-25 15:12:20 <Luke-Jr> clocKwize: basically, what you're asking is *normal*
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1065 2013-11-25 15:12:28 <bmcgee> hey guys I have a question relating to estimating the hashing power of a miner. I understand for a given difficulty you can calculate the average number of hashes needed to find the solution. I'm assuming this is what is used by pools to estimate their total hashing power. That said, I fail to see how, given the inherent randomness of hashing, that such a measure can be even remotely accurate?
1066 2013-11-25 15:12:42 <clocKwize> yeah? I'm kind of new, trying to tackle all these issues, I had a google but didn't really come up with anything obvious
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1071 2013-11-25 15:14:04 <bmcgee> I should add above that you need to know the amout of time a miner was working on a share
1072 2013-11-25 15:15:06 <bmcgee> but still, a slow miner could get lucky and skew your estimate of it's hashing ability. is this affect expected to average out, or is the hashing estimated destined to be on average an order of magnitude or two off what the actually hashing power is?
1073 2013-11-25 15:15:57 <bmcgee> I freely admit my maths knowledge is running out wrt this, which is why I offer up the question to see if I'm thinking about it wrong
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1075 2013-11-25 15:19:18 <gmaxwell> bmcgee: a miner is doing millions or billions of hashes per second.
1076 2013-11-25 15:19:23 gfinn has joined
1077 2013-11-25 15:19:38 <gmaxwell> law of large numbers... you return a random fraction of those hashes .. it averages out.
1078 2013-11-25 15:19:47 <gmaxwell> The measurements aren't exact, but they're unbiased.
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1080 2013-11-25 15:20:53 <gmaxwell> and yes, you can get lucky or unlucky, but how far off just depends on the number of shares submitted in the window you're analyizing, and when you get up to hundreds or thousands of results the errors are not that large.
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1083 2013-11-25 15:22:34 <bmcgee> gmaxwell: hmm
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1097 2013-11-25 15:37:16 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
1098 2013-11-25 15:37:16 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #473: FIXED in 44 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/473/
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1112 2013-11-25 15:43:42 <Che-Anarc> Looking to do a server side wallet app... any recommended collection of guides / docs I can start with?
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1122 2013-11-25 15:49:28 <jgarzik_> whee building building building
1123 2013-11-25 15:49:46 <jgarzik_> All of a sudden, have three bitcoind forks to maintain, in addition to HEAD
1124 2013-11-25 15:49:58 <sipa> :o
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1127 2013-11-25 15:51:08 <jgarzik_> (bitpay maintains a spread across versions)
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1132 2013-11-25 15:52:32 <Che-Anarc> jgarzik what spread?
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1144 2013-11-25 16:01:15 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik_: you mean merging with the stable branches I already maintain? :P
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1146 2013-11-25 16:01:34 <jgarzik_> Che-Anarc, state secret
1147 2013-11-25 16:01:42 <jgarzik_> Luke-Jr, nope
1148 2013-11-25 16:01:54 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik_: why not?
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1150 2013-11-25 16:02:11 <jgarzik_> Luke-Jr, we will be making a few different choices
1151 2013-11-25 16:02:16 <jgarzik_> and watching different versions
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1158 2013-11-25 16:06:12 <Che-Anarc> what to read to start a BTC wallet server... in php as a httpd service?
1159 2013-11-25 16:07:09 <jgarzik_> Sadly, no one has yet written a book "Securing Millions, For Dummies"
1160 2013-11-25 16:07:18 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1161 2013-11-25 16:07:32 <jgarzik_> Our community sorely needs this book, judging from all the thefts. Securely storing millions is... tough.
1162 2013-11-25 16:09:08 <Che-Anarc> Well I can write a book - if I can gather the understanding & material :-p
1163 2013-11-25 16:09:19 <gigavps> cold storage, manual withdrawals.
1164 2013-11-25 16:09:24 <gigavps> full stop
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1168 2013-11-25 16:09:38 <Che-Anarc> I really would like to do a lightweight cold store framework... with authenticantion
1169 2013-11-25 16:10:41 <jgarzik_> gigavps, + multisig etc. Security includes physical security, where kidnap or "hit by a bus" does not threaten money.
1170 2013-11-25 16:11:06 <gigavps> jgarzik_ do you have a multisig app yet?
1171 2013-11-25 16:11:22 <gigavps> if so, is it on github?
1172 2013-11-25 16:11:45 <jgarzik_> gigavps, yes, "txtool" Currently requires a bitcoind
1173 2013-11-25 16:12:00 <TD> the book only needs one word
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1175 2013-11-25 16:12:02 <TD> "don't"
1176 2013-11-25 16:12:47 <jgarzik_> TD, eh? That's the challenge by many individuals and companies in bitcoin today. The newly rich and the enterprise companies...
1177 2013-11-25 16:12:55 mattco has joined
1178 2013-11-25 16:13:02 <TD> i was referring to, "what to read to start a BTC wallet server... in php as a httpd service?"
1179 2013-11-25 16:13:04 <Che-Anarc> How big can the bitcoin daemon get? - or is this subject to what its managing?
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1181 2013-11-25 16:13:13 <TD> Che-Anarc: don't even go down that road.
1182 2013-11-25 16:13:30 <Che-Anarc> TD why not?
1183 2013-11-25 16:13:58 <TD> bitcoin has a long history of people like you turning up, making what is effectively an illegal bank, and then either running off with peoples money or getting hacked and losing it all
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1185 2013-11-25 16:14:06 <gmaxwell> First you have to change your name to PirateChe.
1186 2013-11-25 16:14:08 <TD> one of these incidents just occurred this week, in fact
1187 2013-11-25 16:14:33 <gmaxwell> TD: step 4 is goto 1.
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1190 2013-11-25 16:15:09 <TD> it's much better if people store their own money. spreads out the risk.
1191 2013-11-25 16:15:53 <Luke-Jr> TD: what if my own money is millions?
1192 2013-11-25 16:16:06 <Luke-Jr> (no, I'm not that rich yet..)
1193 2013-11-25 16:16:12 <TD> this goes back to the discussion we were having yesterday. i suggested, seriously, that you put the private keys for that in a bank
1194 2013-11-25 16:16:25 <TD> banks being places that are generally fairly good at keeping valuable objects safe.
1195 2013-11-25 16:16:31 <Luke-Jr> TD: see, that's more than "don't"!
1196 2013-11-25 16:16:47 <TD> i meant physically put them in a bank. not actually give the money to a third party.
1197 2013-11-25 16:16:51 <TD> in their vaults, in a safe box
1198 2013-11-25 16:16:52 <Luke-Jr> yes
1199 2013-11-25 16:17:00 <sipa> "Here's what to do if you want to start a Bitcoin e-wallet service: forget it."
1200 2013-11-25 16:17:08 <TD> ok
1201 2013-11-25 16:17:17 <TD> that's true. the book could contain a guide on finding safe boxes, using trezors, etc: )
1202 2013-11-25 16:17:25 <TD> but that's a book that would not help aphorise :)
1203 2013-11-25 16:17:46 <aphorise> TD so is technocratic inadequacies / confidence the issues... why cant I be just as good as the bank at keep my own shit safe?
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1205 2013-11-25 16:17:52 <aphorise> is it*
1206 2013-11-25 16:17:53 <jgarzik_> Is there any centralized wallet service that remains never-hacked?
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1208 2013-11-25 16:17:59 <jgarzik_> I cannot think of one.
1209 2013-11-25 16:18:24 <TD> i guess blockchain.info is the closest. coinbase, maybe, although they have in the past managed to reverse the buy and sell buttons on their apps, so ......
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1211 2013-11-25 16:18:39 <sipa> lolwut?
1212 2013-11-25 16:18:46 <TD> aphorise: if you're just storing your own money, sure. but if you want to store other peoples money, that's very different
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1214 2013-11-25 16:19:01 <sipa> (you don't need to protect against you suing yourself)
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1220 2013-11-25 16:22:42 <aphorise> ok so liability? - in terms of me getting hacked / loosing other peoples assest.
1221 2013-11-25 16:22:54 <sipa> and legal compliance
1222 2013-11-25 16:23:21 <aphorise> is that depedenty on location?
1223 2013-11-25 16:23:26 <sipa> very much so
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1225 2013-11-25 16:23:32 <TD> right. because people who hold other peoples money get attacked or corrupted often, there are lots of laws and regulations around running such a company. if you don't follow them, governments themselves can go steal your money/your users money
1226 2013-11-25 16:23:40 <TD> as mt gox discovered to their loss :(
1227 2013-11-25 16:24:12 <jgarzik_> TD, point is true, though bad example. mtgox knew about this all along, and deals complicated their life.
1228 2013-11-25 16:24:19 <jgarzik_> (they assumed coinlab would handle it)
1229 2013-11-25 16:24:56 <TD> it's deeply unfortunate that following the rules is, at heart, not that complicated (id verify customers, watch out for suspicious transactions, keep business records) and then they add a pile of licensing on top that means even those who try hard can end up being treated like criminals
1230 2013-11-25 16:25:23 <TD> i really doubt there was any way for mtgox to run in a compliant manner that would have protected themselves. that's an entire class of business that appears to be impossible to run in the USA
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1232 2013-11-25 16:27:26 <jgarzik_> TD, hyperbole
1233 2013-11-25 16:27:55 <jgarzik_> TD, "impossible" it is clearly not -- the hurdle is simply high, 49x jurisdiction licensing
1234 2013-11-25 16:28:11 <TD> well, which bitcoin companies managed to clear the hurdle so far?
1235 2013-11-25 16:28:16 <TD> afaik the answer is "none"
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1237 2013-11-25 16:28:41 <jgarzik_> TD, Correct. It is in-process for many. Still not does match the hyperbole.
1238 2013-11-25 16:28:59 <TD> aphorise: anyway, my point is, there is a long history of people thinking, "i know, i'll make a web wallet" and it often ends up quite badly. you could work on client side wallets instead, maybe?
1239 2013-11-25 16:29:20 <TD> jgarzik_: and if they're doing business before the process is complete .... ?
1240 2013-11-25 16:29:52 <sipa> but but... cloud computing and web 2.0! nothing client side!
1241 2013-11-25 16:30:01 <jgarzik_> TD, irrelevant to your claim of "impossible to run in the USA"
1242 2013-11-25 16:30:32 <TD> alright.
1243 2013-11-25 16:30:37 <TD> impossible means, extremely difficult
1244 2013-11-25 16:30:47 <TD> i mean, we'll see how many companies manage it
1245 2013-11-25 16:31:19 <TD> but there's an obvious circularity problem. the process takes years and costs millions. to make enough money and get through that process, you have to be in business. you aren't allowed to be in business until you complete the process.
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1248 2013-11-25 16:31:58 <TD> as far as i can tell the only solution to that catch-22 is to raise enormous sums of venture capital money, which isn't exactly readily available in Japan, so when I say mt gox didn't have any other possible approach, that's what i meant
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1250 2013-11-25 16:32:41 <jgarzik_> TD, "impossible to be in business until" not true. You simply cannot serve customers in states for which you're not licensed. Some companies are intentionally locating in South Carolina, so as to only use federal licensing + dealing with other South Carolina LLCs.
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1252 2013-11-25 16:33:06 <jgarzik_> TD, it is an invalid assumption that all-states must be licensed, before any business can occur
1253 2013-11-25 16:33:35 <TD> i think it's easier to think about the USA as if it were a collection of small islands
1254 2013-11-25 16:33:45 <TD> of which maybe 3 are large enough markets for a startup to focus on.
1255 2013-11-25 16:34:12 <jgarzik_> TD, a collection of countries, that are not as well integrated as the EU :)
1256 2013-11-25 16:34:22 bmcgee has quit (Quit: bmcgee)
1257 2013-11-25 16:34:29 <TD> i'm sure eventually this problem will be resolved, either by some companies getting enough VC money that they can spend their way to compliance, or by smaller startups that were technically operating without a license getting bought by bigger companies that already have them
1258 2013-11-25 16:35:05 <jgarzik_> already happening
1259 2013-11-25 16:35:20 <jgarzik_> it's a race between bitcoin-rich VCs and new-entrant VCs
1260 2013-11-25 16:35:40 <jgarzik_> though in the US the problem is not really compliance, as annoying as that is. it's the chill on bank accounts.
1261 2013-11-25 16:35:55 <jgarzik_> That's another problem that's getting fixed by money, but everything takes time.
1262 2013-11-25 16:37:15 melvster has joined
1263 2013-11-25 16:39:26 <lianj> btw would the seized slikroad btcs be marked as stolen or what
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1267 2013-11-25 16:41:13 <TD> lianj: context?
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1273 2013-11-25 16:44:07 <lianj> TD none. just jokingly thought of bitwallet.gov and that they have their own funding already. than moved to coin mark/color debate realized how this just can't work at all
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1275 2013-11-25 16:45:42 <TD> i guess if someone wanted to run an anarcho-capitalist mark list that marked FBI seized coins as stolen, they could do that. it wouldn't achieve anything of course.
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1277 2013-11-25 16:46:38 <Emcy> mfw i opened bitwallet.gov expecting the worst
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1289 2013-11-25 16:52:58 <diki> Why is blk00001.dat just slightly bigger than blk00000.dat?
1290 2013-11-25 16:53:17 <diki> like 40 kilobytes or so bigger
1291 2013-11-25 16:53:30 <sipa> it tries to fit as many blocks in their without exceeding 128 MiB
1292 2013-11-25 16:53:37 <sipa> * there
1293 2013-11-25 16:53:54 <diki> well my blk00000.dat and blk00001.dat files are 2 gigs each
1294 2013-11-25 16:54:15 <sipa> oh, those are remnants of 0.7.x
1295 2013-11-25 16:54:33 <sipa> if you had large blockfiles before upgrading, it doesn't rewrite them
1296 2013-11-25 16:54:34 <diki> so I should delete?
1297 2013-11-25 16:54:36 <sipa> no!
1298 2013-11-25 16:54:42 <sipa> well, depends where
1299 2013-11-25 16:54:58 <sipa> inside the blocks/ directory, no
1300 2013-11-25 16:55:05 <diki> yup it's in blocks dir
1301 2013-11-25 16:55:09 <sipa> then leave them
1302 2013-11-25 16:55:42 <diki> alright, I am still curious why blk00001.dat is 40 kilobytes larger than blk00000.dat
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1304 2013-11-25 16:56:11 <sipa> because the blocks in it together are 40 KiB more?
1305 2013-11-25 16:56:33 <sipa> it just appends blocks to the file until it gets too big
1306 2013-11-25 16:56:38 <sipa> and then switches to a new file
1307 2013-11-25 16:57:14 <diki> Does it perhaps end a block at one file, and continue adding to a new file? Will I experience something like that when parsing?
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1309 2013-11-25 16:59:16 <sipa> no
1310 2013-11-25 16:59:25 <sipa> you may see holes
1311 2013-11-25 16:59:25 [\\\] has joined
1312 2013-11-25 16:59:33 <sipa> but blocks are never split over two files
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1314 2013-11-25 17:00:46 <diki> holes?
1315 2013-11-25 17:00:50 <sipa> garbage
1316 2013-11-25 17:01:13 <sipa> in case there was a crash while writing a block, for example
1317 2013-11-25 17:01:25 <sipa> you may end up with a half a block, followed by actual block dtaa
1318 2013-11-25 17:02:15 <diki> Suffice to say, I've sometimes killed the -qt process or quit it while it has synced, but it has never crashed for me so far.
1319 2013-11-25 17:02:26 <diki> *while it was syncing
1320 2013-11-25 17:02:34 <sipa> the same can happen if you kill it
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1347 2013-11-25 17:21:09 TD is now known as TD[away]
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1349 2013-11-25 17:23:16 <danneu> some blkdats appear padded with 0 bytes https://www.refheap.com/21242
1350 2013-11-25 17:23:31 <sipa> the last one should be
1351 2013-11-25 17:23:36 <sipa> or those written before 0.8.2
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1354 2013-11-25 17:24:04 <sipa> since 0.8.2, padding is removed from an old file when switching to a new .dat
1355 2013-11-25 17:24:25 <sipa> iir
1356 2013-11-25 17:24:27 <sipa> iirc
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1358 2013-11-25 17:26:25 <danneu> that makes sense. i mustve scp'ed down blk00090 because it was the latest block at the time when my bitcoind was catching up
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1362 2013-11-25 17:31:45 <shesek> hmm, I'm trying to recover my bitcointalk password, but not sure which email I used, and I don't see the email in any of my accounts
1363 2013-11-25 17:32:06 <shesek> can anyone with access to it can tell me which one is it?
1364 2013-11-25 17:32:22 <shesek> tho I'm not even sure I remember the username correctly :O
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1411 2013-11-25 18:38:43 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
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1419 2013-11-25 18:52:23 <shesek> anyone up for giving some feedback and helping me test a project I'm working on? its a website for arbitration services/marketplace, based on m-of-n transactions
1420 2013-11-25 18:52:54 <shesek> I'm starting some small alpha testing on testnet
1421 2013-11-25 18:54:28 * shesek pings gmaxwell
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1427 2013-11-25 18:58:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: Weren't you doing that a few months ago?
1428 2013-11-25 19:00:39 <shesek> I was, but barely had time to work on that in last few months
1429 2013-11-25 19:01:04 <shesek> I finished up some last bugs and quirks in the last couple days
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1465 2013-11-25 19:44:06 <icoradan> hi
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1468 2013-11-25 19:44:07 kinglet_ has joined
1469 2013-11-25 19:44:17 <icoradan> I have a question
1470 2013-11-25 19:44:48 patcon has joined
1471 2013-11-25 19:45:03 <icoradan> why the bitcoin return change to a new Bitcoin Direction?
1472 2013-11-25 19:45:26 nomailing has joined
1473 2013-11-25 19:45:35 <icoradan> for example in a paper wallet Bitcoin Direction the change does not return to its direction
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1477 2013-11-25 19:47:18 Eiii has joined
1478 2013-11-25 19:47:22 <icoradan> I have read by a privacity reason, but I cant understand this
1479 2013-11-25 19:47:31 Eiii has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1480 2013-11-25 19:47:55 <icoradan> eo
1481 2013-11-25 19:48:46 <shesek> I'm not quite sure what you mean by "direction"...
1482 2013-11-25 19:48:56 <icoradan> Bitcoin Direction
1483 2013-11-25 19:49:02 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1484 2013-11-25 19:49:02 <shesek> but if you sent the change back to the same address, everyone can tell you're sending it back to yourself
1485 2013-11-25 19:49:06 Kozuch has joined
1486 2013-11-25 19:49:18 <shesek> when you're using a new address, its hard to tell if you sent it to someone else or to yourself
1487 2013-11-25 19:49:43 <Kozuch> hi there. how can I start mining testnet coins?
1488 2013-11-25 19:50:00 rdymac has joined
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1490 2013-11-25 19:51:01 <icoradan> shesek: aha to hide the destination
1491 2013-11-25 19:51:42 <icoradan> shesek: I understand, thanks, the key is think on the Bitcoin Direction like a billet
1492 2013-11-25 19:51:58 <shesek> Kozuch, bitcoind -testnet -gen?
1493 2013-11-25 19:52:34 <shesek> Kozuch, if you just want some to play with, there are a couple of faucets you can use
1494 2013-11-25 19:52:59 <Kozuch> shesek, thanks. I already got testnet coins, want to see how mining actually works now...
1495 2013-11-25 19:53:07 ksecondlab has left ()
1496 2013-11-25 19:56:20 <UukGoblin> hm, crypto/ec/ec.h from openssl states that uncompressed ECDSA points are "encoded as z||x||y, where z is the octet 0x02" - however when I play around in brainwallet.org, uncompressed pubkeys start with 0x04, not 0x02
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1500 2013-11-25 19:58:10 Liquid is now known as Guest18187
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1502 2013-11-25 20:01:39 <UukGoblin> ah... 'z' is just one bit, nvmd :-]
1503 2013-11-25 20:02:11 <BlueMatt> cfields: yes, it should be initialized, though it doesnt actually matter in this case because all the paths that return false in ProcessBlock also either call Invalid or DoS on state
1504 2013-11-25 20:02:13 <UukGoblin> although... hrm... still weird, no, ec.h says "z is the /octet/ 0x02"
1505 2013-11-25 20:02:24 <BlueMatt> cfields: but, yea, for sanity's sake it should be initialized
1506 2013-11-25 20:02:35 arioBarzan has joined
1507 2013-11-25 20:02:45 <BlueMatt> (not that it hugely matters, really, that being incorrect doesnt matter much)
1508 2013-11-25 20:06:23 shamoon has joined
1509 2013-11-25 20:06:53 <shamoon> when did getbalance change to no longer include unconfirmed tx's?
1510 2013-11-25 20:07:14 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: is default transaction fees in the reference bitcoin client going to change in the next release?
1511 2013-11-25 20:08:39 <cfields> BlueMatt: in the case of !CheckBlock (in ProcessBlock), looks like it would hit the undefined condition, no?
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1514 2013-11-25 20:09:01 <BlueMatt> CheckBlock always calls DoS/Invalid on state first
1515 2013-11-25 20:09:28 <BlueMatt> again, makes it impossible to audit, but a) undefined results here arent significantly negative, b) I dont think they can happen if you trace it far enough
1516 2013-11-25 20:10:05 <cfields> ok
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1519 2013-11-25 20:12:36 <sipa> UukGoblin: uncompressed pubkeys starts with 0x04, compressed ones with 0x02 or 0x03
1520 2013-11-25 20:13:08 mynameis has joined
1521 2013-11-25 20:14:22 <sipa> UukGoblin: z is one byte, not one bit
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1524 2013-11-25 20:17:09 <Kozuch> how can I properly exit bitcoind? ctrl+C ?
1525 2013-11-25 20:20:07 phrackage has quit (Quit: phrackage)
1526 2013-11-25 20:21:58 <shamoon> Kozuch: CTRL-C
1527 2013-11-25 20:22:02 <shamoon> are you running in daemon mode?
1528 2013-11-25 20:22:28 <Kozuch> I am on Win7 running from command line
1529 2013-11-25 20:24:01 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
1530 2013-11-25 20:24:23 <shamoon> how did you start it?
1531 2013-11-25 20:24:25 <shamoon> bitcoind?
1532 2013-11-25 20:24:38 <shamoon> which version of the code did getbalance change to no longer include unconfirmed tx's?
1533 2013-11-25 20:24:56 <UukGoblin> sipa, so why does the comment in openssl's crypto/ec/ec.h say that uncompressed points are supposed to start with the octet 0x02? :-O
1534 2013-11-25 20:25:09 <UukGoblin> is the pubkey not a point?
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1536 2013-11-25 20:26:13 <sipa> UukGoblin: that looks wrong
1537 2013-11-25 20:26:27 <UukGoblin> they claim to have taken it from its definition in ANSI X9.62, which I don't have :-S
1538 2013-11-25 20:26:49 <Diablo-D3> heh its a UukGoblin
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1540 2013-11-25 20:26:57 <Kozuch> shamoon, just did "bitcoind -testnet -gen" in command line
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1542 2013-11-25 20:27:05 <sipa> UukGoblin: the SEC standard defines 0x04|x|y (for uncompressed), 0x02|x (for compressed with even y) and 0x03|x (for compressed with odd y)
1543 2013-11-25 20:27:14 <sipa> and openssl implements that
1544 2013-11-25 20:27:23 <sipa> i think you're just looking at a comment that is wrong
1545 2013-11-25 20:27:39 <UukGoblin> yeah, code seems to do something like what you say
1546 2013-11-25 20:27:48 <UukGoblin> I'll bug the openssl dudes ;-]
1547 2013-11-25 20:27:52 <UukGoblin> thanks! :-)
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1553 2013-11-25 20:33:20 <arioBarzan> are default transaction fees in the reference client going to change in the next release?
1554 2013-11-25 20:33:40 <sipa> likely
1555 2013-11-25 20:33:59 <sipa> are you talking about creation or about relaying?
1556 2013-11-25 20:34:22 <arioBarzan> creation
1557 2013-11-25 20:34:40 <sipa> given the competition for space, i think that's mostly irrelevant
1558 2013-11-25 20:34:48 Ukto is now known as Ukyo
1559 2013-11-25 20:34:54 <sipa> the minimum fees are unlikely to be enough to get mined quickly
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1563 2013-11-25 20:38:38 <arioBarzan> big mining pools do not implicitly announce their policy on transaction fees and it sucks. they for sure have some kind of policy, otherwise tx's (with relatively low priority) with fees lower than 0.0001 would have get confirmation on pools like btcguild, ghash, and eligius.
1564 2013-11-25 20:38:53 gdoteof has joined
1565 2013-11-25 20:39:02 <arioBarzan> but they unfortunately have not announced their policy.
1566 2013-11-25 20:39:05 ielo has joined
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1568 2013-11-25 20:41:02 <gdoteof> is it possible to use locktime to delay a transaction by some number of blocks? or time? liek if i wanted to give someone a bitcoin but not let them have access to it for ~1 year
1569 2013-11-25 20:41:06 <gdoteof> or something like that
1570 2013-11-25 20:41:38 <sipa> arioBarzan: in the long term, the policy will likely be: enough price per byte
1571 2013-11-25 20:42:21 <sipa> as the size of blocks is the limiting factor, it's reasonable that miners would want to maximize price per byte
1572 2013-11-25 20:42:23 <gdoteof> it seems that it is, from what i am reading but i guess i really just am trying to understand how one would do it
1573 2013-11-25 20:42:35 <andytoshi> gdoteof: the wiki claims, either unix time or blockheight can be used..
1574 2013-11-25 20:42:54 <andytoshi> realistically, you use it by signing a transaction with nLockTime set, then giving the signed transaction to whoever you plan to spend to
1575 2013-11-25 20:42:55 <jgarzik> gdoteof, yes
1576 2013-11-25 20:43:07 kinglet__ has joined
1577 2013-11-25 20:43:10 <jgarzik> gdoteof, though the network will not relay the transaction either
1578 2013-11-25 20:43:14 <andytoshi> because if you broadcast it to the network it probably won't go anywhere, it certainly won't be kept around for a year
1579 2013-11-25 20:43:24 kinglet__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1580 2013-11-25 20:43:46 <andytoshi> so whoever you're sending to has to hold onto it until nLockTime expires, then s/he can publish it
1581 2013-11-25 20:44:38 <gdoteof> jgarzik: ah i see. i am trying to figure out how to realistically do this with a new born
1582 2013-11-25 20:44:40 imton_ has joined
1583 2013-11-25 20:45:11 <andytoshi> i'd print the transaction and keep it with her birth certificate
1584 2013-11-25 20:45:13 icoradan has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1585 2013-11-25 20:45:15 <jgarzik> gdoteof, just accept you will get no sleep for 3 months + be drowning in pee and poop, with a new born
1586 2013-11-25 20:45:45 imton has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1587 2013-11-25 20:45:45 imton_ is now known as imton
1588 2013-11-25 20:45:54 <jgarzik> gdoteof, technically speaking, you must store the transaction until nlocktime occurs
1589 2013-11-25 20:46:06 kinglet_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1590 2013-11-25 20:46:20 <gdoteof> jgarzik: =D someone elses newborn
1591 2013-11-25 20:46:42 cads has joined
1592 2013-11-25 20:46:57 <gdoteof> jgarzik: that is fine, the storing. i want to avoid the possibility of the parents deciding it is "the right time" to sell the bitcoin
1593 2013-11-25 20:47:12 <jgarzik> gdoteof, yes, nlocktime avoids that possibility
1594 2013-11-25 20:47:38 <gdoteof> i am looking here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=321550.msg3455574#msg3455574
1595 2013-11-25 20:47:51 <gdoteof> are there any higher-level tools for generating nlocktime transactions?
1596 2013-11-25 20:49:31 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1597 2013-11-25 20:49:41 <gdoteof> actually; i take it back. fun in theory but i think it is silly
1598 2013-11-25 20:53:11 <ThomasV> is there already someone working on a project of a server that indexes all op_return data?
1599 2013-11-25 20:53:31 jps has joined
1600 2013-11-25 20:56:52 <diki> so how exactly do you find out if an output was spent?
1601 2013-11-25 20:56:52 <shamoon> does being connected to more peers help you hear of transactions faster?
1602 2013-11-25 20:57:10 <diki> say you have an address do you begin scanning from the beginning of the chain?
1603 2013-11-25 20:57:28 <diki> and if so, how do you determine the final balance?
1604 2013-11-25 20:57:42 <shamoon> diki: add up the inputs and outputs
1605 2013-11-25 20:57:52 <shamoon> i mined 50 BTC to address1
1606 2013-11-25 20:58:16 <diki> shamoon:But what if say an address had 50btc, but were spent 200k blocks later?
1607 2013-11-25 20:58:18 <shamoon> i then send address2 25 of those, so a tx gets created with 1 input (address1) and 2 outputs (address2 and a change address)
1608 2013-11-25 20:58:21 <diki> wouldn't that take a lot of time?
1609 2013-11-25 20:58:40 <shamoon> what do you mean take a lot of time?
1610 2013-11-25 20:59:13 <diki> to scan the whole blockchain to see if an output was spent
1611 2013-11-25 20:59:21 <shamoon> i don't thikn so
1612 2013-11-25 20:59:23 <diki> or am I misunderstanding something
1613 2013-11-25 20:59:24 bitspill has joined
1614 2013-11-25 20:59:28 <shamoon> your client is the one that does that
1615 2013-11-25 20:59:32 <shamoon> that scans the blockchain
1616 2013-11-25 20:59:36 <shamoon> on your computer
1617 2013-11-25 20:59:38 <shamoon> so it's pretty quick
1618 2013-11-25 20:59:46 <diki> I am writing my own blockchain parser
1619 2013-11-25 20:59:50 <diki> so I'll be doing it
1620 2013-11-25 21:00:03 <shamoon> right
1621 2013-11-25 21:00:10 <shamoon> so you can just keep track of inputs
1622 2013-11-25 21:00:15 <shamoon> waht DB will you be using?
1623 2013-11-25 21:00:20 <diki> reading
1624 2013-11-25 21:00:21 <diki> just reading
1625 2013-11-25 21:02:20 <shamoon> but which DB?
1626 2013-11-25 21:02:22 <shamoon> for parsing?
1627 2013-11-25 21:02:35 <diki> [22:55:15] <shamoon> i then send address2 25 of those, so a ...<- however this still means going from the beginning of the blockchain to the end every single time
1628 2013-11-25 21:02:44 <diki> shamoon:Everything from scratch
1629 2013-11-25 21:02:46 Musk has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1630 2013-11-25 21:02:50 <shamoon> diki: yeah, i'm not sure how the internals would work
1631 2013-11-25 21:02:53 <shamoon> but i imagine it's super fast
1632 2013-11-25 21:03:02 <shamoon> i mean, any modern DB can scan millions of records quickly
1633 2013-11-25 21:03:17 <diki> well, afaik the blockchain is stored as a concatenation of blocks
1634 2013-11-25 21:03:23 <diki> so it doesn't use a particular format
1635 2013-11-25 21:03:36 <diki> but I do know they use LevelDB for something else
1636 2013-11-25 21:05:30 <jgarzik> the blockchain is just the list of changes to the UTXO
1637 2013-11-25 21:05:33 <shamoon> if i send a TX with an output for 0.00006, will it propogate?
1638 2013-11-25 21:05:36 <shamoon> assuming i pay fees
1639 2013-11-25 21:05:38 <jgarzik> you need something to calculate the UTXO itself
1640 2013-11-25 21:05:46 <jgarzik> blockchain is not a database
1641 2013-11-25 21:05:46 <shamoon> UTXO?
1642 2013-11-25 21:05:56 <jgarzik> Unspent Transaction (TX) Output set
1643 2013-11-25 21:06:11 <jgarzik> the account ledger of bitcoin
1644 2013-11-25 21:08:08 <diki> yeah it will take a while to figure it out I gues
1645 2013-11-25 21:08:16 <diki> certainly felt easier yesterday
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1667 2013-11-25 21:36:04 <Burritoh> What's the go-to testnet faucet? Does this one work? https://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
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1671 2013-11-25 21:38:58 <matjeh> whats the testnet difficulty thesedays?
1672 2013-11-25 21:39:06 <matjeh> isnt it easy enough just to mine some?
1673 2013-11-25 21:40:57 zcopley has joined
1674 2013-11-25 21:42:16 <jgarzik> matjeh, always
1675 2013-11-25 21:42:35 <jgarzik> matjeh, on testnet, if 20 minutes goes by without a block, you are permitted to mine at difficulty 1
1676 2013-11-25 21:42:52 <diki> jgarzik:Can you give me a little bit more information on these variable length integers in the protocol
1677 2013-11-25 21:43:01 <diki> I just can't seem to figure them out
1678 2013-11-25 21:43:09 rdymac has joined
1679 2013-11-25 21:43:27 <berndj> diki, are you familiar with utf-8?
1680 2013-11-25 21:43:57 eoss has joined
1681 2013-11-25 21:44:15 <diki> not intimately
1682 2013-11-25 21:44:27 <matjeh> is there a difficulty correction every 2 weeks on testnet? i cant see much info about it on the wiki
1683 2013-11-25 21:44:36 <matjeh> i mean 2016 blocks
1684 2013-11-25 21:45:01 Bituser123 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1686 2013-11-25 21:45:47 <berndj> diki, are you referring to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer ?
1687 2013-11-25 21:45:56 <diki> yes
1688 2013-11-25 21:46:11 <diki> apparently the "Transaction count" is a varint
1689 2013-11-25 21:46:24 <midnightmagic> matjeh: If there is no block on testnet for an hour I think difficulty goes back to 1.
1690 2013-11-25 21:46:26 <shesek> if you know coffeescript, you can see a reference implementation I wrote here: https://gist.github.com/shesek/5835695
1691 2013-11-25 21:46:42 <shesek> but the wiki explains it pretty clearly
1692 2013-11-25 21:46:45 <midnightmagic> matjeh: otherwise, it's normal rules.
1693 2013-11-25 21:47:04 <matjeh> midnightmagic: it still increases though, yes? so someone could mine it with a few big ASICs and piss everyone off
1694 2013-11-25 21:47:36 <midnightmagic> matjeh: yah but they'd have to keep it up, and since testnet isn't merged-mining, it means they're wasting their asic just to piss people off
1695 2013-11-25 21:47:51 <diki> shesek:I've never even heard of coffeescript.
1696 2013-11-25 21:48:02 <diki> shesek:Well, I don't find it very clear.
1697 2013-11-25 21:48:23 <midnightmagic> matjeh: Sorry, what jgarzik said is almost certainly more accurate than what I said. I didn't see whether someone answereed you or not.
1698 2013-11-25 21:48:38 Grouver has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC)
1699 2013-11-25 21:49:52 <Burritoh> matjeh: I'm just testing something for someone else, and don't feel like setting up a miner. :P
1700 2013-11-25 21:51:10 <diki> shesek:For instance, it does not give me any idea on how you encode or decode them.
1701 2013-11-25 21:55:03 jgarzik has quit (Quit: homeward)
1702 2013-11-25 21:57:48 <shesek> diki, just read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer
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1708 2013-11-25 22:03:54 <wizkid057> shouldnt the sum of everything in listaccounts be zero?
1709 2013-11-25 22:04:02 <wizkid057> if the wallet has no coins
1710 2013-11-25 22:04:07 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1711 2013-11-25 22:05:43 <matjeh> Burritoh: if the faucet isn't working, i can give you a privkey for a block i've mined
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1714 2013-11-25 22:07:14 <cfields> anyone around who can reproduce the osx corruption?
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1720 2013-11-25 22:11:13 <diki> Btw, does the blockchain get filled with orphaned blocks, and remain there or does it get overwritten?
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1725 2013-11-25 22:15:03 <Burritoh> matjeh: doesn't matter, shesek just provided me with some.
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1744 2013-11-25 22:30:10 <todamoon> hi all
1745 2013-11-25 22:31:39 gavinandresen has joined
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1747 2013-11-25 22:33:09 The_unb0rn has quit (Quit: I quit!)
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1752 2013-11-25 22:38:03 <todamoon> im reading https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions
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1755 2013-11-25 22:45:17 <todamoon> signatures sign the hash of the transaction right?
1756 2013-11-25 22:45:39 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1758 2013-11-25 22:46:22 <todamoon> but what if you have multiple inputs.. the hash cannot include signatures from later inputs
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1762 2013-11-25 22:47:22 <jaakkos> todamoon: none of the hashes is included when the tx is hashed
1763 2013-11-25 22:47:34 <todamoon> so the first hash doesn't include scripts from later inputs right? and the second hash includes the script from the first input right?
1764 2013-11-25 22:48:20 <todamoon> you mean none of the scripts are included in the hashes to sign?
1765 2013-11-25 22:48:24 <todamoon> thats confusing
1766 2013-11-25 22:48:38 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1767 2013-11-25 22:49:54 <jaakkos> todamoon: other parts of the script are included i believe, except the hash
1768 2013-11-25 22:50:07 <jaakkos> but someone more knowledgeable should verify
1769 2013-11-25 22:50:09 <todamoon> ok
1770 2013-11-25 22:50:21 <jaakkos> s/hash/signature/
1771 2013-11-25 22:50:25 <todamoon> yup
1772 2013-11-25 22:51:34 <todamoon> do you have any idea what is the size of a transaction with 1 input and 1 output?
1773 2013-11-25 22:51:35 rastapopuloto has left ()
1774 2013-11-25 22:51:57 <todamoon> approximately
1775 2013-11-25 22:54:45 <jaakkos> i think 191 bytes
1776 2013-11-25 22:54:45 <todamoon> most transactions seem to be around 0.3 - 1 kb
1777 2013-11-25 22:54:51 <todamoon> thx
1778 2013-11-25 22:54:53 <ers35> cfields: do you have a patch you want someone to test?
1779 2013-11-25 22:54:55 ext0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1780 2013-11-25 22:55:10 <cfields> ers35: working on one, yes
1781 2013-11-25 22:55:14 enodios has left ()
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1783 2013-11-25 22:56:15 <ers35> I was just testing various ways to corrupt the database -- if you have a publicly available patch I would be willing to try it.
1784 2013-11-25 22:56:29 hemry has joined
1785 2013-11-25 22:57:01 <warren> ers35: are you able to reproduce the corruption reliably?
1786 2013-11-25 22:57:04 <cfields> ers35: so you can repro pretty easily?
1787 2013-11-25 22:57:40 andytoshi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1788 2013-11-25 22:58:12 <ers35> I only just started investigating the issue. I have two bitcoind setup on the same Mac and am slamming transactions from one to the other. I purposely kill -9 the receiver and the database becomes corrupted, although this is obviously not a clean shutdown.
1789 2013-11-25 22:58:37 andytoshi has joined
1790 2013-11-25 22:59:02 <cfields> you get the "Database Corrupted" error, or something else?
1791 2013-11-25 22:59:38 <warren> "slamming transactions from one to the other" is irrelevant to this bug
1792 2013-11-25 23:00:07 bitspill has joined
1793 2013-11-25 23:00:44 <ers35> "Corrupted block database detected. Do you want to rebuild the block database now?"
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1799 2013-11-25 23:02:45 <todamoon> the wiki's search function sucks :(
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1836 2013-11-25 23:41:35 Dickyb0b has joined
1837 2013-11-25 23:41:39 <Dickyb0b> hi
1838 2013-11-25 23:42:14 <Dickyb0b> whats the best miner and pool to use for gpu mining BTC
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1840 2013-11-25 23:44:18 Mikej0h has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1841 2013-11-25 23:44:57 <sipa> Dickyb0b: what GPUs do you have?
1842 2013-11-25 23:45:18 justusranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1847 2013-11-25 23:50:09 <Dickyb0b> this pc, VIDEO CARD: Gigabyte GTX 670 Windforce SLI (x2)
1848 2013-11-25 23:50:32 <Dickyb0b> other thats turned off, VIDEO CARD: AMD Radeon HD 7800 Series
1849 2013-11-25 23:50:47 jurov_ has joined
1850 2013-11-25 23:51:27 <sipa> ;;genrate 500
1851 2013-11-25 23:51:28 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 500.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 609482679.888, is 0.000412568341173 BTC per day and 1.71903475489e-05 BTC per hour.
1852 2013-11-25 23:51:58 <sipa> you'd make around $0.32 per day, excluding power costs
1853 2013-11-25 23:51:58 eristisk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1854 2013-11-25 23:52:03 JontyX_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1855 2013-11-25 23:52:07 <Dickyb0b> lollllllll
1856 2013-11-25 23:52:16 <lianj> http://cdn.alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/okay-okay-l.png
1857 2013-11-25 23:52:20 handle_ has joined
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1859 2013-11-25 23:53:14 <sipa> that's probably around 10 times less than what it costs you to keep them running in electricity
1860 2013-11-25 23:53:16 <Dickyb0b> so how are people making mega profits
1861 2013-11-25 23:53:26 <sipa> by not using GPUs
1862 2013-11-25 23:53:33 <sipa> but specially designed chips
1863 2013-11-25 23:53:38 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1864 2013-11-25 23:53:39 Mikej0h has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1866 2013-11-25 23:53:49 <Dickyb0b> to buy ?
1867 2013-11-25 23:53:57 dooglus has joined
1868 2013-11-25 23:54:06 <sipa> you can buy those yes, look for bitcoin asics
1869 2013-11-25 23:54:14 joecool has joined
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1871 2013-11-25 23:54:21 <Dickyb0b> and they make good profit?
1872 2013-11-25 23:54:24 <sipa> maybe
1873 2013-11-25 23:54:42 jps has quit (Quit: jps)
1874 2013-11-25 23:54:58 <sipa> the delivery times are usually long, some are scams, and both the mining difficulty are exchange rate are very uncertain
1875 2013-11-25 23:55:03 <maaku> Dickyb0b: just ask yourself why the other person is selling it
1876 2013-11-25 23:55:13 <maaku> and then tread carefully
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1879 2013-11-25 23:55:57 pooop is now known as guest13089744
1880 2013-11-25 23:56:12 <Dickyb0b> these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYT08wt3yJc?
1881 2013-11-25 23:56:29 <Dickyb0b> usb asic
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1884 2013-11-25 23:56:42 guest13089744 is now known as kill\switch
1885 2013-11-25 23:56:50 <sipa> Dickyb0b: yes, those are probably not very useful anymore
1886 2013-11-25 23:57:06 <sipa> they do around 330 MH/s, less than your GPUs
1887 2013-11-25 23:57:14 <sipa> they consume less power, but still...
1888 2013-11-25 23:57:19 drayah has joined
1889 2013-11-25 23:57:20 <Dickyb0b> what is usefull then
1890 2013-11-25 23:57:29 justusranvier has joined
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1893 2013-11-25 23:57:42 <sipa> i have 2 BFL jalapeno's, each doing 5000 MH/s
1894 2013-11-25 23:58:01 <sipa> and that's almost nothing
1895 2013-11-25 23:58:16 <Dickyb0b> how many btc do they produce
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1899 2013-11-25 23:58:30 <sipa> ;;genrate 10000
1900 2013-11-25 23:58:31 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 609482679.888, is 0.00825136682347 BTC per day and 0.000343806950978 BTC per hour.
1901 2013-11-25 23:58:56 johnsoft has joined
1902 2013-11-25 23:59:16 <Dickyb0b> usd?
1903 2013-11-25 23:59:43 <sipa> 6 USD/day or so
1904 2013-11-25 23:59:50 <sipa> at current rates