1 2013-11-26 00:00:03 <lianj> hehe
   2 2013-11-26 00:00:25 <matjeh> ;;genrate 38000
   3 2013-11-26 00:00:26 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 38000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 609482679.888, is 0.0313551939292 BTC per day and 0.00130646641372 BTC per hour.
   4 2013-11-26 00:00:27 <sipa> they cost me 300$ to buy (the current price is higher, i believe, i pre-order and got them delivered after 11 months)
   5 2013-11-26 00:00:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: US minimum wage is $7.25/hr, maybe some perspective on that! :).
   6 2013-11-26 00:00:53 <Dickyb0b> what are they exactly,2 BFL jalapeno
   7 2013-11-26 00:00:55 <sipa> however, as i paid in BTC to buy them, i certainly would have been much better off keeping them
   8 2013-11-26 00:01:00 <sipa> Dickyb0b: google is your friend
   9 2013-11-26 00:01:16 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  10 2013-11-26 00:01:19 <sipa> i don't advise buying those
  11 2013-11-26 00:01:31 loltu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  12 2013-11-26 00:01:33 <saracen> You didn't make the BTC back, using them to mine it?
  13 2013-11-26 00:01:59 <sipa> saracen: i broke even in USD for sure, but certainly not in BTC
  14 2013-11-26 00:02:19 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  15 2013-11-26 00:02:36 e-dard_ has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  16 2013-11-26 00:02:41 loltu has joined
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  18 2013-11-26 00:02:47 <Dickyb0b> what do you recommend now?
  19 2013-11-26 00:02:50 Mikej0h has joined
  20 2013-11-26 00:03:11 <sipa> not wasting time with bitcoin mining, unless you're serious :)
  21 2013-11-26 00:03:39 <sipa> i haven't personally kept up with mining stuff recently
  22 2013-11-26 00:03:52 <saracen> Dickyb0b: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=346134.0
  23 2013-11-26 00:04:14 <saracen> You probably have to be that serious, thesedays :(
  24 2013-11-26 00:04:21 <Dickyb0b> the higher the GH the better?
  25 2013-11-26 00:06:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: so for a minimum wage 40hr/week, you earn $290/week, or $41 per (24/24) day, or 0.051 BTC per day, or 62 GH/s ?
  26 2013-11-26 00:07:27 <Dickyb0b> <sipa> 6 USD/day or so
  27 2013-11-26 00:07:33 <Dickyb0b> 24/7?
  28 2013-11-26 00:07:43 <lianj> Dickyb0b: GH and less power
  29 2013-11-26 00:07:50 <sipa> Dickyb0b: yes, if it's running 24/7
  30 2013-11-26 00:07:57 <sipa> why would you turn it off...?
  31 2013-11-26 00:08:06 <lianj> but like sipa said. 90% starting mining now isn't for you
  32 2013-11-26 00:08:07 <Dickyb0b> without power costs?
  33 2013-11-26 00:08:55 <jaakkos> Dickyb0b: do something more productive to earn btc
  34 2013-11-26 00:08:57 <Dickyb0b> this guy is insane,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PItCbRUFsQo
  35 2013-11-26 00:09:09 <jaakkos> like, invent some useful service or get paid in btc
  36 2013-11-26 00:09:15 <Dickyb0b> how else would you earn btc?
  37 2013-11-26 00:09:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea sounds right.
  38 2013-11-26 00:09:45 <sipa> Dickyb0b: by buying them?
  39 2013-11-26 00:09:51 <sipa> Dickyb0b: or by being paid in it?
  40 2013-11-26 00:09:51 <jaakkos> Dickyb0b: i know it's hard though :S everyone is trying to do that as well.
  41 2013-11-26 00:09:59 <sipa> Dickyb0b: bitcoin isn't just about mining - it's a currency
  42 2013-11-26 00:10:28 <sipa> gmaxwell: so your avalon's are a full time job each? :p
  43 2013-11-26 00:10:37 <Dickyb0b> BFL Jalapeno is only for gpu mining?
  44 2013-11-26 00:10:38 cadaverr has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  45 2013-11-26 00:10:46 <sipa> Dickyb0b: no, it's an ASIC
  46 2013-11-26 00:10:58 <sipa> can we move this to #bitcoin or #bitcoin-mining ?
  47 2013-11-26 00:11:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: yep. Not a well paid one anymore.
  48 2013-11-26 00:13:09 <Dickyb0b> ok
  49 2013-11-26 00:13:36 graingert has joined
  50 2013-11-26 00:13:36 graingert has quit (Changing host)
  51 2013-11-26 00:13:36 graingert has joined
  52 2013-11-26 00:13:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: fwiw, libsecp256k1 is 2.6x faster than openssl on arm, but both are a little horrifyingly slow.
  53 2013-11-26 00:14:54 <gmaxwell> e.g. on my slower arm a9 libsecp256k1 is 330.5 verifies a second and openssl is 123.8 per core.
  54 2013-11-26 00:15:02 macboz has joined
  55 2013-11-26 00:15:05 <gmaxwell> I guess I should try this on an a15.
  56 2013-11-26 00:15:12 <sipa> i think that's close to the speedup factor on x86
  57 2013-11-26 00:15:48 <warren> sipa: is there anyone we can hire to help libsecp256k1 become trusted sooner?
  58 2013-11-26 00:16:18 iz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  59 2013-11-26 00:16:35 Burritoh has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  60 2013-11-26 00:16:46 <sipa> warren: probably, i haven't had time for it
  61 2013-11-26 00:16:53 Burritoh has joined
  62 2013-11-26 00:17:35 <Dickyb0b> <sipa> i have 2 BFL jalapeno's, each doing 5000 MH/s
  63 2013-11-26 00:17:40 <Dickyb0b> megahash??
  64 2013-11-26 00:18:12 <sipa> Dickyb0b: yes, and we just established that you'd need around 62000 MH/s to get to a US minimum waage full-time job equivalent income
  65 2013-11-26 00:18:33 <Burritoh> 1000 MH/s = 1 GH/s
  66 2013-11-26 00:18:35 <Burritoh> :)
  67 2013-11-26 00:18:47 <Dickyb0b> right
  68 2013-11-26 00:18:50 <warren> sipa: Litecoin has no tx's so it benefits us a lot less, but we'd like to help anyway. =
  69 2013-11-26 00:18:52 <warren> =)
  70 2013-11-26 00:19:09 <Burritoh> Litecoin has no transactions? O_o
  71 2013-11-26 00:19:18 <warren> It's like zen.
  72 2013-11-26 00:19:21 <Dickyb0b> but running 12 units would cost alot to run
  73 2013-11-26 00:19:22 <sipa> warren: it's maybe just asking the right smart people to look at it, but i'm not going to spend time on that now
  74 2013-11-26 00:19:41 <sipa> Dickyb0b: ASICs cost almost nothing to run
  75 2013-11-26 00:19:43 farmanimal has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  76 2013-11-26 00:20:00 <Dickyb0b> dont you need your pc on?
  77 2013-11-26 00:20:03 <Burritoh> sipa: what, do they include nuclear reactors? :P
  78 2013-11-26 00:20:06 farmanimal has joined
  79 2013-11-26 00:20:10 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  80 2013-11-26 00:20:15 <sipa> $0.05 per day per GH/s or so
  81 2013-11-26 00:20:35 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  82 2013-11-26 00:20:56 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
  83 2013-11-26 00:20:58 <sipa> Dickyb0b: if you have a full-time job equivalent income, i think you can afford running a computer :)
  84 2013-11-26 00:21:10 <warren> sipa: are all the malleability issues fixed in master?
  85 2013-11-26 00:21:27 <sipa> warren: in libsecp256 or in bitcoin
  86 2013-11-26 00:21:29 <Dickyb0b> but the difficulty changes with btc right?
  87 2013-11-26 00:21:32 todamoon has quit (Quit: todamoon)
  88 2013-11-26 00:21:45 <sipa> Dickyb0b: yep http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-ever.png
  89 2013-11-26 00:22:04 <Dickyb0b> so thats the downfall
  90 2013-11-26 00:22:04 <warren> sipa: bitcoin
  91 2013-11-26 00:22:09 <sipa> warren: hell n
  92 2013-11-26 00:22:12 <sipa> warren: hell no
  93 2013-11-26 00:22:15 <warren> =)
  94 2013-11-26 00:23:10 <sipa> we'd need to enforce low-S values, in addition to canonical sigs
  95 2013-11-26 00:23:23 <sipa> then make those a hard rule instead of just a relay policy
  96 2013-11-26 00:23:24 todamoon has joined
  97 2013-11-26 00:23:34 <sipa> and then add no-excess-scriptsig-pushes
  98 2013-11-26 00:23:42 <Dickyb0b> i want something that is 100% profit and no loss
  99 2013-11-26 00:23:56 <sipa> Dickyb0b: go dream
 100 2013-11-26 00:23:59 <Burritoh> Dickyb0b: no such thing as easy money~
 101 2013-11-26 00:24:10 <sipa> Dickyb0b: if that existed, everyone would do it
 102 2013-11-26 00:24:30 tsche has joined
 103 2013-11-26 00:26:27 <Dickyb0b> USB block Eruptors
 104 2013-11-26 00:26:37 <Dickyb0b> good or bad?
 105 2013-11-26 00:26:41 <sipa> obsolete
 106 2013-11-26 00:26:55 MoALTz_ has joined
 107 2013-11-26 00:26:57 <sipa> i have a bunch, but it's not worth the effort of running them
 108 2013-11-26 00:27:10 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 109 2013-11-26 00:28:03 <Dickyb0b> is there nothing that can mine with solar to save those powr
 110 2013-11-26 00:28:04 <sipa> as i said, they only do 330 MH/s
 111 2013-11-26 00:28:06 <Dickyb0b> bills
 112 2013-11-26 00:28:19 <Dickyb0b> solar mining
 113 2013-11-26 00:29:04 <sipa> can you please take this elsewhere? this is not the place to come to ask for easy money
 114 2013-11-26 00:29:04 <saracen> They could all mine with solar, assuming you have enough solar panels.
 115 2013-11-26 00:29:16 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 116 2013-11-26 00:29:32 <saracen> sipa: Are you a core developer? I forget :(
 117 2013-11-26 00:29:38 <sipa> yes
 118 2013-11-26 00:29:38 <Dickyb0b> you guys are easy to talk to
 119 2013-11-26 00:31:32 * sipa ZzZz
 120 2013-11-26 00:31:33 <sipa> bye!
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 122 2013-11-26 00:34:13 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
 123 2013-11-26 00:34:44 <Dickyb0b> ;;genrate 60000
 124 2013-11-26 00:34:45 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 60000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 609482679.888, is 0.0495082009408 BTC per day and 0.00206284170587 BTC per hour.
 125 2013-11-26 00:35:10 <Dickyb0b> how many usd is that?
 126 2013-11-26 00:35:25 <lianj> google and #bitcoin-mining please
 127 2013-11-26 00:35:46 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 128 2013-11-26 00:38:08 cryptic has quit (Disconnected by services)
 129 2013-11-26 00:40:58 <cfields> ers35: if you're still around: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=337294.msg3714808#msg3714808
 130 2013-11-26 00:41:04 Test_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 131 2013-11-26 00:41:24 <ers35> I'll take a look
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 156 2013-11-26 00:57:15 <osmosis> upgrading python-bitcoinrpc, getting  ImportError: cannot import name ServiceProxy
 157 2013-11-26 00:57:20 jrklein has joined
 158 2013-11-26 00:58:52 Dickyb0b has joined
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 160 2013-11-26 01:00:08 <osmosis> works if I fallback to  jsonrpc/  instead of using the default  bitcoinrpc/
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 165 2013-11-26 01:07:27 <Dickyb0b> why dont people use ,https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage-new-products/1-gh-cloud-hosted-bitcoin-hashing-power.html
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 170 2013-11-26 01:10:19 <Dickyb0b> ;;genrate 120000
 171 2013-11-26 01:10:20 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 120000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 609482679.888, is 0.0990164018816 BTC per day and 0.00412568341173 BTC per hour.
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 174 2013-11-26 01:14:20 <berndj> ouch, compiling bitcoinrpc.cpp is painful
 175 2013-11-26 01:14:49 <berndj> i see a bunch of unchecked calls to close(2) in leveldb - is that likely to be a problem on macos?
 176 2013-11-26 01:14:58 cazalla has joined
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 179 2013-11-26 01:22:53 <Dickyb0b> this seems like an awsome deal
 180 2013-11-26 01:22:55 <Dickyb0b> http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/prospero-x-1.html
 181 2013-11-26 01:24:15 <Dickyb0b> 100Ghash is 100,000mh right?
 182 2013-11-26 01:26:05 FabianB_ has joined
 183 2013-11-26 01:26:07 <Burritoh> You should really take this to #bitcoin-mining
 184 2013-11-26 01:26:18 <Burritoh> this channel is for software- and development-related stuff
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 189 2013-11-26 01:27:26 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 190 2013-11-26 01:28:43 eian has joined
 191 2013-11-26 01:29:05 <eian> It looks like adi shamir is about to be burned at the stake for his most recent paper...
 192 2013-11-26 01:30:46 <eian> gmaxwell, you around?
 193 2013-11-26 01:31:25 <Burritoh> Is he the guy insinuating that Satoshi funded/is DPR?
 194 2013-11-26 01:31:30 Zarutian has joined
 195 2013-11-26 01:31:30 <eian> yeah
 196 2013-11-26 01:32:05 <eian> He is also one of the founders of the RSA algorithm
 197 2013-11-26 01:32:23 Dickyb0b has joined
 198 2013-11-26 01:32:43 <B0g4r7> Mm, I'd heard it was an Israeli.  Didn't realize it was Shamir.
 199 2013-11-26 01:32:51 <B0g4r7> Specifically, he's the S in RSA.
 200 2013-11-26 01:33:05 <gmaxwell> eian: I am.
 201 2013-11-26 01:33:15 <Burritoh> Well damn.
 202 2013-11-26 01:33:20 <Dickyb0b> ;;genrate 100000
 203 2013-11-26 01:33:21 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 100000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 609482679.888, is 0.0825136682347 BTC per day and 0.00343806950978 BTC per hour.
 204 2013-11-26 01:33:26 <eian> gmaxwell, I had a chance to inform the NY Times author who ran the story that some of the assumptions looked bad
 205 2013-11-26 01:33:54 <eian> gmaxwell, I forwarded him along a post jgarzik made a long time ago
 206 2013-11-26 01:34:02 <eian> about their first paper
 207 2013-11-26 01:34:06 agnostic98 has joined
 208 2013-11-26 01:34:10 <eian> it looks like they are still doing flow analysis
 209 2013-11-26 01:34:12 <gmaxwell> Ah, was this before the NYT article went out?
 210 2013-11-26 01:34:29 one_zero has joined
 211 2013-11-26 01:34:37 <eian> I was asked before the article went out, but I responded late :(
 212 2013-11-26 01:34:56 pZombie has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 213 2013-11-26 01:35:13 <eian> I have John Markoff's ear at this point
 214 2013-11-26 01:35:24 <eian> actually, can I forward you an e-mail?
 215 2013-11-26 01:35:47 abueesp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 216 2013-11-26 01:35:57 <gmaxwell> You may.
 217 2013-11-26 01:36:15 <osmosis> wiki is still referencing old jsonrpc way, rather then bitcoinrpc. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)#Python
 218 2013-11-26 01:37:05 <osmosis> im not sure how to make it work using bitcoinrpc, as  import ServiceProxy  fails
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 233 2013-11-26 01:54:37 <osmosis> from bitcoinrpc.authproxy import AuthServiceProxy     seems to work.  that should probably go into the wiki.
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 237 2013-11-26 01:59:01 <osmosis> updated wiki
 238 2013-11-26 02:00:25 <Luke-Jr> osmosis: bitcoinrpc includes jsonrpc bindings
 239 2013-11-26 02:01:19 <osmosis> Luke-Jr, looks like the setup.py can be modified to use the old syntax, but its no longer the default
 240 2013-11-26 02:04:49 <osmosis> im out for now. goodnight.
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 253 2013-11-26 02:19:41 <petertodd> 3GrddfiBp5TSyzUCDFTdpEUuY6okGGsCyd <- p2sh addr with a 747BTC in it!
 254 2013-11-26 02:19:47 <petertodd> it's a 2-of-3
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 256 2013-11-26 02:21:23 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 257 2013-11-26 02:21:32 <lianj> why does 2-of-3 matter?
 258 2013-11-26 02:21:37 <petertodd> 3NwzMFpgNk8d5v1pZnEv6gAPrqd9vvaxb1 <- and 150BTC
 259 2013-11-26 02:21:52 <petertodd> lianj: just gives us a bit of insight into what they are using it for
 260 2013-11-26 02:21:54 <lianj> shouldn't any script that hases to that hash160 work?
 261 2013-11-26 02:22:10 <lianj> ah ok
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 269 2013-11-26 02:34:28 <gmaxwell> petertodd: wow, I haven't looked for a while.. some real usage now!
 270 2013-11-26 02:35:12 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 271 2013-11-26 02:35:27 <Zarutian> wait? someone(s) is using p2sh, now? I must get on with the times then ;öP
 272 2013-11-26 02:35:52 <petertodd> gmaxwell: some other ones also look like they involved some kind of automated wallet, I think they're associated with bitgo.ca, some startup that'll be about bill payment
 273 2013-11-26 02:36:32 <petertodd> see: 1bitgo6ruXenErAqgWzuHBjGcd28Tv1Pc
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 280 2013-11-26 02:50:40 <Squidicuz> funny question... `seed.bitcoin.sipa.be` is blocked by my dns for malware, is that a false positve?
 281 2013-11-26 02:50:45 Mikej0h has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 282 2013-11-26 02:52:09 <Luke-Jr> yes
 283 2013-11-26 02:52:24 mortikia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 284 2013-11-26 02:52:28 <gmaxwell> Squidicuz: any idea what dns provider is doing that? :(
 285 2013-11-26 02:52:37 mortikia has joined
 286 2013-11-26 02:53:29 <Squidicuz> comodo
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 289 2013-11-26 02:55:17 <Squidicuz> I can get through with a bypass, and site seems harmless.  tried in a sandbox :s
 290 2013-11-26 02:55:52 <Luke-Jr> it's not a site
 291 2013-11-26 02:55:57 <Luke-Jr> it is nothing but a DNS resolver
 292 2013-11-26 02:56:09 <Luke-Jr> it just gives you a random selection of bitcoin peer IPs
 293 2013-11-26 02:56:16 <Luke-Jr> just in case you can't find any
 294 2013-11-26 02:56:41 <Squidicuz> yeah, I meant just bitcoin.sipa.be
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 296 2013-11-26 02:57:24 <Squidicuz> for the site part...
 297 2013-11-26 02:57:28 <B0g4r7> Run your own DNS.  Problem solved.
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 299 2013-11-26 02:58:09 <B0g4r7> As for why, it's probably because of cpuminer zombienets.
 300 2013-11-26 02:58:15 <Squidicuz> ah
 301 2013-11-26 02:58:23 <gmaxwell> B0g4r7: that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
 302 2013-11-26 02:58:40 <gmaxwell> it's not like a cpuminer zombie net connects to the bitcoin network normally.
 303 2013-11-26 02:58:50 <Squidicuz> er, don't you still need to point a dns server to other nodes?
 304 2013-11-26 02:59:04 <B0g4r7> Maybe not then.  Just a guess.
 305 2013-11-26 02:59:16 <gmaxwell> no, those miners connect to pools not bitcoin nodes.
 306 2013-11-26 02:59:46 <B0g4r7> Maybe long ago they did?
 307 2013-11-26 03:00:02 <gmaxwell> never seen one that did.
 308 2013-11-26 03:00:28 <B0g4r7> ya idk then.
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 312 2013-11-26 03:03:48 <ers35> I requested a re-classification from Comodo.
 313 2013-11-26 03:04:29 <Squidicuz> cool, thank you
 314 2013-11-26 03:05:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: pretty sure some did solo mining
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 434 2013-11-26 05:52:59 <Diablo-D3> http://imgur.com/gallery/3onivJa
 435 2013-11-26 05:53:26 <joecool> Diablo-D3: you've been reading reddit
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 442 2013-11-26 05:55:31 <Diablo-D3> joecool: no, imgur
 443 2013-11-26 05:55:36 <Diablo-D3> it hit the front page
 444 2013-11-26 05:55:38 <joecool> ah
 445 2013-11-26 05:55:45 <super3> imgur == reddit
 446 2013-11-26 05:56:19 <joecool> p.much
 447 2013-11-26 05:56:29 c0rw1n has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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 449 2013-11-26 05:56:30 <Diablo-D3> super3: eehh kind of
 450 2013-11-26 05:56:56 <Diablo-D3> it was started by people who arent reddit employees and not associated with reddit and DEAR GOD WHY IS IT SO COLD IN MY ROOM
 451 2013-11-26 05:57:05 <Diablo-D3> WHAT IS THIS SORCERY
 452 2013-11-26 05:57:24 <lianj> imgur == 4chan theft
 453 2013-11-26 05:57:53 <Diablo-D3> no
 454 2013-11-26 05:57:57 <Diablo-D3> imgur == gag9 theft
 455 2013-11-26 05:58:01 <Diablo-D3> gag9 == 4chan theft
 456 2013-11-26 05:58:14 <Diablo-D3> 4chan == imgur theft
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 459 2013-11-26 06:01:34 <super3> eh id call it less a theft and more a filter
 460 2013-11-26 06:01:51 c0rw1n has joined
 461 2013-11-26 06:02:30 <super3> Diablo-D3, imgur was created for reddit
 462 2013-11-26 06:03:28 <super3> Diablo-D3, second blog post in 2010 was about reddit http://imgur.com/blog/2010/06/17/global-reddit-meetup-accounts/
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 480 2013-11-26 06:14:51 <Diablo-D3> super3: it was created for reddit, yes
 481 2013-11-26 06:14:54 <Diablo-D3> but it isnt reddit
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 483 2013-11-26 06:15:02 <Diablo-D3> [12:52:36] <super3> imgur == reddit
 484 2013-11-26 06:15:06 <Diablo-D3> remember, you said that
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 486 2013-11-26 06:15:46 <upb> test
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 492 2013-11-26 06:22:53 <super3> its a conditional statement :-P
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 534 2013-11-26 07:23:58 <deantrade> I just got https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1 working with my bitcoin client... wow that's way faster than what I was using.
 535 2013-11-26 07:24:03 <damethos> HAI
 536 2013-11-26 07:24:37 <deantrade> Anybody have any thoughts on how valid that implimentation is?
 537 2013-11-26 07:24:38 cadaver has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 538 2013-11-26 07:26:31 <gmaxwell> deantrade: For what purpose?
 539 2013-11-26 07:26:35 cadaver has joined
 540 2013-11-26 07:27:31 <deantrade> For validating ECDSA sigs faster
 541 2013-11-26 07:28:00 <gmaxwell> Abstractly for no particular application?  Not vailating them at all would be faster for that. :)
 542 2013-11-26 07:28:10 <gmaxwell> validating*
 543 2013-11-26 07:29:07 <deantrade> Validating them... because I don't like letting other people think for me if I can do it myself in a reasonable speed.
 544 2013-11-26 07:29:27 <deantrade> There are liars!
 545 2013-11-26 07:30:28 <gmaxwell> At the moment we currently wouldn't recommend it as part of a bitcoin node, being mindful that being more correct than openssl would also be a potentially fatal flaw.
 546 2013-11-26 07:30:59 <gmaxwell> Otherwise: it hasn't seen a ton of third party review but has had fairly extensive testing at least on a few systems.
 547 2013-11-26 07:31:11 <warren> bugs are part of the protocol "spec"
 548 2013-11-26 07:31:16 flick has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 549 2013-11-26 07:31:35 <gmaxwell> There may be problems which arise if used in ways different than the test harnesses, simply because its relatively immature software.
 550 2013-11-26 07:31:46 <warren> deantrade: litecoin had a few thousand downloads of a test client with libsecp256k1 with no apparent complaints
 551 2013-11-26 07:32:06 <deantrade> Extensive testing for correct positives, false positives, false negatives, correct negatives?
 552 2013-11-26 07:32:13 <warren> but litecoin has fewer people doing unusual things on the network
 553 2013-11-26 07:32:55 <gmaxwell> deantrade: to an extent, but of course in a digital signature algorithim you could have flaws which happen only one in a trillion random cases, but which might be obvious under study.
 554 2013-11-26 07:32:57 rethaw has joined
 555 2013-11-26 07:33:06 <gmaxwell> Which is why I asked for the application.
 556 2013-11-26 07:34:05 wei__ has quit (Quit: wei__)
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 558 2013-11-26 07:34:31 <gmaxwell> but basically its been tested against the signatures in the blockchain, along with randomized testing to generate cases that must fail, and similar testing.
 559 2013-11-26 07:34:47 paracyst has joined
 560 2013-11-26 07:34:54 <deantrade> OK, so other people are using it and they seem happy with it so far.
 561 2013-11-26 07:35:00 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure if all of the internal implementations (there are several, depending on platform and available libraries) have had equal testing.
 562 2013-11-26 07:35:16 <gmaxwell> deantrade: famous last words.
 563 2013-11-26 07:36:18 <deantrade> Hey I'm more of a crazy test pilot than quality control.
 564 2013-11-26 07:36:21 <gmaxwell> In any case the author of it is currently choosing not to use it in bitcoin— a consensus system where agreement of the software is safty critical— because he believes its not yet mature and well reviewed enough for that purpose.
 565 2013-11-26 07:36:48 <gmaxwell> If you're just going to run it in software you run locally where nothing of great importance will happen if it fails, then by all means! knock yourself out.
 566 2013-11-26 07:37:07 <warren> gmaxwell: perhaps a new scamcoin should be deployed with secp256k1 ... no consensus failure to worry about.
 567 2013-11-26 07:37:19 <gmaxwell> In between requires some additional risk assesment. Getting more third party review of the code would be helpful.
 568 2013-11-26 07:37:38 <gmaxwell> warren: it's been tested enough that I think— other than maybe a portablity glitch— no problem is likely to be found by chance.
 569 2013-11-26 07:38:00 <warren> was the autotools part merged? it had major portabilitiy problems prior to that.
 570 2013-11-26 07:38:35 <gmaxwell> warren: well I don't mean "portablity" in the sense of "is it easy to build" but in the sense of "does it behave correctly once you get it to build". :P
 571 2013-11-26 07:38:46 <deantrade> I implemented the database I spoke of a few nights ago... where I'm trying to quickly read/write transaction spend information O(ln2(N)) without having an in memory index...  I'm pretty happy with it I guess.  Its kind of like a merge sort algorithm.
 572 2013-11-26 07:40:09 <deantrade> But now that I am using secp256k1...  now I think my transaction spend database is the bottleneck :( (before it was transaction verification)
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 578 2013-11-26 07:42:23 <deantrade> Err it is a merge sort, but the merges happen in the background and it like still works when its not fully sorted.
 579 2013-11-26 07:43:32 <deantrade> Anyways, I donno, I guess maybe one day I'll just decide to toss out the old transaction information.  I hate deleting stuff.
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 582 2013-11-26 07:48:46 <deantrade> I made a comparison chart between gold, gold backed banking, fiat banking, and bitcoin.  If bitcoin works as designed, then... I expect it will replace all existing banking/money technology.  It will just then be gold and bitcoin/altcoins.
 583 2013-11-26 07:49:03 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 584 2013-11-26 07:49:17 <deantrade> Is this not the appropriate place to talk about this?  :O
 585 2013-11-26 07:49:34 robbak has joined
 586 2013-11-26 07:50:32 <deantrade> Basically, people like Peter Schiff say that we should go back to gold backed banks.  I disagree that that is even desirable, gold backed banks = too vulnerable to counter party risk and theft.
 587 2013-11-26 07:51:51 <deantrade> The only problem with storing value in Bitcoin (that I see) is that potentially a more efficent algorithm will come out that can allow for more efficient transactions (lower transaction fees).
 588 2013-11-26 07:52:34 <deantrade> But AFAIK no existing altcoin is better, just potentially in the future an altcoin might take the lead.
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 591 2013-11-26 08:00:43 <deantrade> I ported OpenSSL ECDSA to c#.  I tried to do some simple optimizations (just like inlining), but it ran slow, like 66 times slower than secp256k1.
 592 2013-11-26 08:00:59 <deantrade> (Calling secp256k1 from .net)
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 594 2013-11-26 08:02:43 <deantrade> Originally I was using just pinvoke to openssl, but I wanted to multithread, and multithreading wasn't working (some kind of issue with openssl/managed .net)
 595 2013-11-26 08:04:11 <deantrade> Maybe if I would have called ECDSA verify signagure from multiple threads simultaneously it wouldn't have been an issue even if I didn't get the thread synch function working?  I donno.
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 597 2013-11-26 08:08:50 <gmaxwell> deantrade: other signature algorithims can be pretty easily added to bitcoin— as such things go. It was designed to be forward compatible in that way.
 598 2013-11-26 08:09:11 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey, what do you think the best file database out there is, no matter the language
 599 2013-11-26 08:09:30 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: preferably one with an sql-like indexing system
 600 2013-11-26 08:10:48 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: if you want sql-like, I think that leaves only sqlite, at least among the regularly used ones
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 602 2013-11-26 08:11:14 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: I dont need the complexity of the queries
 603 2013-11-26 08:11:17 <wumpus> as it's ported to so many architectures it's very battle-tested as well
 604 2013-11-26 08:11:43 <deantrade> You want sql-like indexing, but what, no transactions or SQL?
 605 2013-11-26 08:12:51 <Diablo-D3> hrm, maybe Im over thinking it
 606 2013-11-26 08:12:52 <wumpus> all the other embedded databases are lower-level, different variations on key/value stores, of course you can build your own indexes
 607 2013-11-26 08:12:55 <Diablo-D3> I guess I could just use leveldb
 608 2013-11-26 08:13:25 <deantrade> What language are you using?
 609 2013-11-26 08:14:34 <Diablo-D3> havent chosen one yet
 610 2013-11-26 08:14:54 <deantrade> What device or audience will it have?
 611 2013-11-26 08:15:17 <deantrade> What OS?
 612 2013-11-26 08:15:33 <deantrade> On linux it would be easy to use mysql
 613 2013-11-26 08:16:14 <deantrade> How big of a database?
 614 2013-11-26 08:16:32 <deantrade> Smaller databases: it doesn't really matter what you do/use.
 615 2013-11-26 08:16:34 <wumpus> if sqlite is 'too complex' I doubt he wants mysql or one of its spinoffs
 616 2013-11-26 08:18:01 <deantrade> I just made a pretty cool merge sort key/value (index) file based database.  O(ln2(N)) disk seeks and practically no DRAM usage.
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 618 2013-11-26 08:19:07 <deantrade> But... I didn't add transactional support, and it could really use some work on handling deletes properly, and hanlding updates where the value is larger than it used to be.
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 621 2013-11-26 08:25:49 <gdoteof> Diablo-D3: 'best' defined how
 622 2013-11-26 08:26:07 <Diablo-D3> deantrade: mysql isnt a good stand alone db
 623 2013-11-26 08:26:16 <deantrade> Does bitcoin-qt still use DiskBlockIndex with "pnext" to indicate whether a block is part of the main chain?  I made a height->blockHash key/value index to record which block is in the main chain instead, and got rid of the forward pointer.
 624 2013-11-26 08:26:20 <Diablo-D3> gdoteof: lets say I was reimplementing bitcoin
 625 2013-11-26 08:26:25 <Diablo-D3> gdoteof: that sort of best
 626 2013-11-26 08:27:04 <gdoteof> so you don't need high performance
 627 2013-11-26 08:27:22 <gdoteof> Diablo-D3: for the blockchain, or for a wallet?
 628 2013-11-26 08:27:47 <Diablo-D3> gdoteof: blcokchain
 629 2013-11-26 08:28:30 <deantrade> Diablo-D3: For transaction hash index or block hash index?
 630 2013-11-26 08:28:59 <gdoteof> Diablo-D3: i am not sure a typical database is really the right solution for a blockchain; but i would personally be more inclined to go for a nosql db
 631 2013-11-26 08:29:38 <Diablo-D3> deantrade: both.
 632 2013-11-26 08:29:54 <Diablo-D3> Im actually wondering if a flat out file would be better
 633 2013-11-26 08:29:57 <Diablo-D3> just a log file
 634 2013-11-26 08:30:05 <gdoteof> Diablo-D3: that would be my intuition
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 636 2013-11-26 08:30:12 <gdoteof> it isn't really a database; you don'tneed to query it
 637 2013-11-26 08:30:13 <Diablo-D3> I dont know why bitcoin didnt
 638 2013-11-26 08:30:15 <gdoteof> you need to process it
 639 2013-11-26 08:30:25 <gdoteof> i mean; you don't want *one* file
 640 2013-11-26 08:30:43 <Diablo-D3> yeah exactly, I could actually abuse the filesystem for this
 641 2013-11-26 08:30:44 <gdoteof> Diablo-D3: did they not? i thought it was just a binary file
 642 2013-11-26 08:30:47 <deantrade> Diablo-D3: bitcoin uses a log file + an index into it
 643 2013-11-26 08:30:55 <Diablo-D3> start a new file every hundred blocks
 644 2013-11-26 08:31:12 <Diablo-D3> then a bloom filter to handle the indexing task
 645 2013-11-26 08:31:15 <gdoteof> Diablo-D3: yeah that's basically what bitcoind oes; but much bigger than a hundred blocks
 646 2013-11-26 08:31:28 <Diablo-D3> gdoteof: I thought it used leveldb for everything?
 647 2013-11-26 08:31:43 <deantrade> leveldb just for the index into the block log
 648 2013-11-26 08:32:10 <Diablo-D3> oh.
 649 2013-11-26 08:32:19 <Diablo-D3> huh.
 650 2013-11-26 08:32:25 <Diablo-D3> I think that might be the best setup
 651 2013-11-26 08:32:49 <gdoteof> deantrade: and the wallet too, no?
 652 2013-11-26 08:33:03 <gdoteof> oh no it is berkeley
 653 2013-11-26 08:33:27 <deantrade> gdoteof: Its been a while since I've looked at bitcoin-qt.  I think they moved completely to leveldb, away from berkely
 654 2013-11-26 08:33:33 <deantrade> But I could be wrong!
 655 2013-11-26 08:33:56 <deantrade> let me look at my files...
 656 2013-11-26 08:34:45 <gdoteof> yeah i thought that was happening too but it appears its berkely still
 657 2013-11-26 08:34:58 <deantrade> Hm, it looks like the peers (p2p node info) and the wallet are both still berkeley
 658 2013-11-26 08:35:15 <gdoteof> Diablo-D3: it seems likely that just forking bitcoin is the best way; since they have thought about all these problems way more than you
 659 2013-11-26 08:35:48 <gdoteof> and you can steal their code
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 662 2013-11-26 08:40:35 <Diablo-D3> deantrade: yes, they switched to leveldb from bdb
 663 2013-11-26 08:40:42 <Diablo-D3> gdoteof: not interested in that
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 678 2013-11-26 08:57:27 <coin1> can i run a bitcoin-qt testnet node on a port other than 18333?
 679 2013-11-26 08:57:58 <coin1> i tried starting it with ./bitcoin-qt -port 18444 to no avail
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 681 2013-11-26 08:58:17 <coin1> also tried port=18444 on bitcoin.conf
 682 2013-11-26 08:59:40 <deantrade> I don't think there was a port limitation in the client, did you check your router NAT?
 683 2013-11-26 08:59:58 <gmaxwell> coin1: sure. are you conflicting on the _rpc_ port?
 684 2013-11-26 09:00:13 <coin1> i checked it, i have another node behind this router working fine on 18333
 685 2013-11-26 09:00:23 <gmaxwell> coin1: what isn't working for you?
 686 2013-11-26 09:00:45 <gmaxwell> (if you were expecting inbound connections: don't, nodes prefer to connect to the standard port)
 687 2013-11-26 09:00:48 <deantrade> From what I remember, bitcoin clients don't like connecting to people with the same IP
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 689 2013-11-26 09:01:02 <coin1> netstat -a still shows me that iḿ listening on 18333, despite having the port set to 18444
 690 2013-11-26 09:01:42 <gmaxwell> coin1: kind of a dumb question, but did you restart? :P
 691 2013-11-26 09:01:48 <coin1> yes ;)
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 693 2013-11-26 09:02:23 <coin1> so inbound connections still come on port 18333? even if port is set to 18444?
 694 2013-11-26 09:02:24 <deantrade> Try shutting down the other one running on 18333 and then see if it works?
 695 2013-11-26 09:02:43 <coin1> so how can i run several nodes behind the same router and NAT?
 696 2013-11-26 09:02:48 <gmaxwell> coin1: yes.
 697 2013-11-26 09:02:53 <gmaxwell> You don't need inbound connections to run a node.
 698 2013-11-26 09:03:08 dparrish has joined
 699 2013-11-26 09:03:25 <deantrade> Know that I am talking about year old code, so I might not be the best reference :(
 700 2013-11-26 09:03:37 <coin1> yes, i still get those 8 connections
 701 2013-11-26 09:03:48 <gmaxwell> coin1: then thats the expected behavior.
 702 2013-11-26 09:04:04 <coin1> but if the bar doesnt get green i get the feeling it isnt working at full potential :(
 703 2013-11-26 09:04:05 <deantrade> AFAIK, nodes only accept connections from a particular IP address once... gmaxwell, is that still true?
 704 2013-11-26 09:04:19 <coin1> but i see what you mean
 705 2013-11-26 09:04:22 <gmaxwell> deantrade: no, thats not true.
 706 2013-11-26 09:04:30 melvster has joined
 707 2013-11-26 09:05:15 <deantrade> Don't nodes keep record of which port their peer uses as the incoming port?
 708 2013-11-26 09:05:17 t7 has joined
 709 2013-11-26 09:06:53 <gmaxwell> deantrade: it's not symmetrical, the only knoweldge they get is from addr messages. and someone could flood the network with addr messages with random ports which would make nodes a nussance.
 710 2013-11-26 09:07:10 <gmaxwell> so it only tries ports other than the default if it is having trouble getting connections on the default.
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 714 2013-11-26 09:09:40 <deantrade> Are there any p2p messaging/mailbox systems that use proof of work to determine (how long)/(whether to relay) a message?
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 716 2013-11-26 09:10:15 <gmaxwell> deantrade: there is bitmessage which uses pow for ratelimiting (it's a flooding network)
 717 2013-11-26 09:11:47 <deantrade> I was thinking of making an altcoin that potentially uses pow for account creation and/or transactions...  just I'm not sure exactly how thresholds would be set.  But I'm not supposed to talk about altcoins like this?
 718 2013-11-26 09:12:13 <warren> Thought crime.
 719 2013-11-26 09:13:23 <gmaxwell> this channel really should be about production development stuff.  I don't know really where to direct your discussion, in #bitcoin-wizards our flights of fancy are a little more rocket science than pow transactions (though it's been suggested elsewhere before)
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 730 2013-11-26 09:26:45 <Subo1977_> hi, is there a imeframe when https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3296 would be commited?
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 736 2013-11-26 09:32:04 <gmaxwell> Subo1977_: well I just commented on it and suggested a change, because I think as is it may contain a minor vulnerability.
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 747 2013-11-26 09:49:12 <ThomasV> hello. has anyone started to work on an index of the op_return data?
 748 2013-11-26 09:49:20 <ThomasV> is there such a project?
 749 2013-11-26 09:49:53 <ThomasV> I'm thinking of a data -> txid index
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 758 2013-11-26 09:54:58 <gmaxwell> That sounds like sadness.
 759 2013-11-26 09:55:44 <ThomasV> huh?
 760 2013-11-26 09:56:37 <gmaxwell> Encouraging people to store unrelated data in transactions is unfortunate, and the purpose of pruning that data is to minimize the operating cost of it existing since we can't prevent it.
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 762 2013-11-26 09:57:45 <CodeShark> people interested in arbitrary data storage should be looking into CAS systems rather than bitcoin
 763 2013-11-26 09:58:12 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: indeed. but look at that, please: https://gist.github.com/atweiden/7648209
 764 2013-11-26 09:58:34 <ThomasV> I told this user to use op_return instead
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 766 2013-11-26 09:59:06 <ThomasV> (this is probably the most wasteful timestamping script ever)
 767 2013-11-26 10:00:26 <gmaxwell> we really need to facility O(1) (coinbase) timestamping to discourage this stuff, but no one has time to work on it.
 768 2013-11-26 10:01:07 <ThomasV> this would require miners cooperation
 769 2013-11-26 10:02:01 <ThomasV> but miners could actually get paid for that
 770 2013-11-26 10:02:04 <gmaxwell> fortunately miners won't even change settings in the reference software on their own even when we say they really should.
 771 2013-11-26 10:02:14 kreal has joined
 772 2013-11-26 10:02:21 <gmaxwell> but it requires protocol work to make it automatic.
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 775 2013-11-26 10:02:44 <gmaxwell> I dunno if you ever saw uuk's tool, it was pretty neat: https://github.com/goblin/chronobit
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 777 2013-11-26 10:03:08 <ThomasV> no, never
 778 2013-11-26 10:03:32 <UukGoblin> I'm hoping to get back to it next year
 779 2013-11-26 10:03:39 <UukGoblin> and extend it greatly
 780 2013-11-26 10:03:48 <UukGoblin> it really needs some more love ;-]
 781 2013-11-26 10:04:20 <gmaxwell> lack of good, efficient, tools for this stuff inspires a lot of stupidity.
 782 2013-11-26 10:04:29 <UukGoblin> yeah
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 784 2013-11-26 10:04:47 <UukGoblin> I'm planning to add a p2p network so that users can request p2pool miners to timestamp their stuff
 785 2013-11-26 10:04:48 <ThomasV> so you were against op_return ?
 786 2013-11-26 10:05:37 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: we added OP_RETURN because it's better than people coding things as never spendable pubkeys. Adding extra unscalable data to the blockchain is bad, but pretending that its a pubkey is worse.
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 788 2013-11-26 10:05:56 <gmaxwell> OP_RETURN also lets you do zero output transactions (all coins to fees) which are sometimes handy.
 789 2013-11-26 10:06:10 <CodeShark> if the objective is to timestamp data, there's absolutely no need to add utxo bulk
 790 2013-11-26 10:06:48 <gmaxwell> there is no need to add any transaction bulk. Chronobit (and similar ideas) have O(1) scaling. Timestamp infinite data and add nothing (additional) to the blockchain.
 791 2013-11-26 10:07:09 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: all right. but now that op_return is here, should its usage be encouraged (adding an option to popular clients) or discouraged and we'll see more stupid scripts like that one)?
 792 2013-11-26 10:08:39 <gmaxwell> For timestamping? I really don't think it should be encouraged. People are also doing other things which can't be covered by the same O(1) methods that work for timestamping.
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 796 2013-11-26 10:10:07 <CodeShark> ideally these issues could be solved by economic means
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 798 2013-11-26 10:10:42 <CodeShark> or perhaps not ideally, but practically :)
 799 2013-11-26 10:11:23 <ThomasV> gmaxwell:  O(1) timestamping  will not let you build an index of timestamps, which is specifically what this user is doing. he's using the fact that electrum servers index addresses
 800 2013-11-26 10:11:31 <CodeShark> if people want to bulk up the blockchain and utxo, fine - but make them pay for it
 801 2013-11-26 10:13:24 <ThomasV> but I agree it sounds like sadness :)
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 803 2013-11-26 10:13:43 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: but his actual use case doesn't need that.
 804 2013-11-26 10:14:23 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: yes, he wants to check if a timestamp exists
 805 2013-11-26 10:14:33 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: e.g. there is even an openpgp message type for timestamp signatures.  So you could extract a spv proof of an O(1) timestamp, and actually stick it in your pgp signature.
 806 2013-11-26 10:14:33 <ThomasV> (exists in the blockchain)
 807 2013-11-26 10:14:56 <gmaxwell> and actually have gpg tell you about it as a valid signature on the data.
 808 2013-11-26 10:15:26 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: sure, but this requires to store a merkle branch of hashes
 809 2013-11-26 10:15:33 <gmaxwell> (and not go consuming resources for hundreds of thousands of people for all eternaity who don't care anything about it)
 810 2013-11-26 10:15:59 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: sure, which is going to be smaller than a 4096 bit rsa signature.
 811 2013-11-26 10:16:24 <ThomasV> I think he's attracted in the fact that he does not need to store anything, because the blockchain does
 812 2013-11-26 10:16:31 <UukGoblin> ThomasV, but we could store the markle branches in chains separate from the bitcoin chain
 813 2013-11-26 10:16:41 <UukGoblin> not sure how to incentivise this storage just yet
 814 2013-11-26 10:16:45 <ThomasV> UukGoblin: yes we could
 815 2013-11-26 10:16:48 <gmaxwell> someone has to store is, the only question is whom. if the bitcoin system becomes a dumping ground where other people who don't want the cost of storing data force it on other people then ultimately bitcoin will have problems.
 816 2013-11-26 10:17:18 <UukGoblin> however IMO shifting the responsibility of storage to the timestamp users (they could store the entire merkle branch for their proof themselves) is totally agreeable, isn't it?
 817 2013-11-26 10:17:24 <gmaxwell> and yea, so if that means we need to start up some altchain that does this for people, then so be it.
 818 2013-11-26 10:17:37 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: so long as they can easily steal from all the users of bitcoin though it can be a hard sell.
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 822 2013-11-26 10:20:39 <ThomasV> btw, I've always wondered why firefox will download the same file twice, when it could check the hash
 823 2013-11-26 10:21:38 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, true...
 824 2013-11-26 10:22:08 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: As in a general content url + hash idea?  Because their are privacy problems when I give you a url content hash and you don't fetch it from me.
 825 2013-11-26 10:22:15 <gmaxwell> And then I know that you've already fetched that content.
 826 2013-11-26 10:22:16 <UukGoblin> although 0-out txns can be insta-pruned from the chain, can't they?
 827 2013-11-26 10:22:47 <UukGoblin> or are people still just burning coins?
 828 2013-11-26 10:22:59 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: no, still need them in the chain to be able to play forward the state and verify that satoshi didn't give himself a billion hidden coins someplace. :P ... just not in the utxo set.
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 831 2013-11-26 10:24:29 <CodeShark> I still rather like the idea of charging rent for utxo space - just not sure how to implement it practically
 832 2013-11-26 10:24:30 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: no, I'm talking about the fact that it creates two files. if the newly downloaded file has the same hash as a file in my Downloads dir, it could just avoid to duplicate it
 833 2013-11-26 10:24:53 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, oh... so pruning won't be good for everyone?
 834 2013-11-26 10:25:17 <warren> Anyone have MacOS X and were capable of reproducing the leveldb corruption issue?
 835 2013-11-26 10:25:36 <UukGoblin> CodeShark, one of my ideas is to extend this a bit... just pay p2p people for storing your stuff in general, sort of like a distributed dropbox
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 837 2013-11-26 10:26:13 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: it just removes one kind of cost, but leaves us with others.
 838 2013-11-26 10:26:14 <CodeShark> UukGoblin: yes, there's plenty of room for innovation in decentralized storage protocols
 839 2013-11-26 10:26:42 <CodeShark> problem is many people get into bitcoin and don't realize that it's not the only way to store decentralized data and want to use it for just about everything
 840 2013-11-26 10:26:56 <ThomasV> CodeShark: true
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 842 2013-11-26 10:27:32 <CodeShark> it's a case of people having only a hammer and treating everything like nails
 843 2013-11-26 10:27:34 <gmaxwell> yea, the hammer nail problem.
 844 2013-11-26 10:27:37 <CodeShark> hehe
 845 2013-11-26 10:27:38 <gmaxwell> jinx
 846 2013-11-26 10:28:01 <gmaxwell> same reason why every problem has a solution spelled "DHT".
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 849 2013-11-26 10:28:52 <gmaxwell> unfortunately none of these altcoins seem to manage to remove our anti-spam code, otherwise they'd be great places to send this interest. :P
 850 2013-11-26 10:29:27 <warren> what anti-spam code?
 851 2013-11-26 10:30:09 <gmaxwell> minimum priorty, free transaction limits, anti-penny flooding stuff.
 852 2013-11-26 10:30:19 <gmaxwell> e.g. I can't just go store movies in namecoin.
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 854 2013-11-26 10:30:26 <gmaxwell> at least not for free.
 855 2013-11-26 10:30:30 <gmaxwell> only for almost free.
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 862 2013-11-26 10:34:38 <CodeShark> if you don't require timestamping, it's silly to use a blockchain
 863 2013-11-26 10:34:52 <CodeShark> and even if you do require timestamping, you only need to timestamp hashes
 864 2013-11-26 10:35:21 <UukGoblin> CodeShark, but the merkle branch of those hashes still costs you storage
 865 2013-11-26 10:35:49 <CodeShark> storage isn't free :p
 866 2013-11-26 10:36:02 <UukGoblin> chronobit's proofs weren't well-balanced trees, but they could go into hundreds of kB
 867 2013-11-26 10:36:40 <UukGoblin> CodeShark, well, if you can sneak some transaction spam into the bitcoin blockchain, it becomes free
 868 2013-11-26 10:36:52 <UukGoblin> because all bitcoin nodes have to keep it
 869 2013-11-26 10:37:08 <CodeShark> the point isn't to make storage free - but instead, to prevent anyone from dumping the cost onto everyone
 870 2013-11-26 10:37:30 kinglet_ is now known as kinglet
 871 2013-11-26 10:37:42 <CodeShark> while encouraging people to provide resources for storage voluntarily
 872 2013-11-26 10:37:45 <warren> wumpus: why 27KB -> 30KB?
 873 2013-11-26 10:38:21 <gmaxwell> makes for an integer number of 1kb transactions!
 874 2013-11-26 10:38:25 <UukGoblin> IMO if bitcoin transaction rates go up a bit, it'll no longer be viable to include spam in the blockchain and the problem will sot of solve itself
 875 2013-11-26 10:39:13 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: unless that spam gets used as an argument to hardfork to increase the block size limit. :)
 876 2013-11-26 10:39:24 <warren> UukGoblin: spam has a habit of being able to pay high fees because those users don't care
 877 2013-11-26 10:39:38 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, eww, that'd suck
 878 2013-11-26 10:40:33 <gmaxwell> people are weird about fees in any case. some are happy to blow a bunch playing pong in the blockchain, but some are spazzy paying 50 cents for an urgent high value transaction.
 879 2013-11-26 10:40:52 <UukGoblin> warren, well, in that case, the distributed-dropbox idea should allow them to pay LOWER fees for storage, which should incentivise them to migrate
 880 2013-11-26 10:41:06 <CodeShark> gambling without an edge isn't rational to begin with, gmaxwell
 881 2013-11-26 10:42:13 <CodeShark> unless you're in a desperate situation where you'll probably die anyhow if you don't do anything
 882 2013-11-26 10:42:48 <warren> need to win the next bet to buy more crack?
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 884 2013-11-26 10:43:54 <gmaxwell> :( we have awesome gambling built in too, just solo mining. no house taking a cut.  weirdly people don't play that game much.
 885 2013-11-26 10:44:08 <UukGoblin> heh
 886 2013-11-26 10:44:13 <gmaxwell> but they play the ones that creates externalized costs on all present and future bitcoin users.
 887 2013-11-26 10:44:43 <warren> gmaxwell: centralization has better odds.  need to fix the speed of light among other things.
 888 2013-11-26 10:44:57 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, it's because they can't adjust the chance of winning I guess
 889 2013-11-26 10:45:15 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: they can— e.g. use p2pool and adjust the share difficulty, gives you a reasonably broad range. :P
 890 2013-11-26 10:45:25 <UukGoblin> :-D
 891 2013-11-26 10:45:29 <CodeShark> unless you have considerable hashing power, solo mining might mean you wait a VERY, VERY, VERY long time before you hit the jackpot
 892 2013-11-26 10:45:48 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: its just a very low odd gamble played very often. :P
 893 2013-11-26 10:46:07 <gmaxwell> as mentioned p2pool with the share difficulty cranked is fine.
 894 2013-11-26 10:46:09 kinglet has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 895 2013-11-26 10:46:28 <CodeShark> even in games with huge house takes, the psychology requires that you let the player win every now and then - and that the player experience a win relatively quickly
 896 2013-11-26 10:46:38 <CodeShark> even if the player has to pay a lot to experience that single win
 897 2013-11-26 10:47:18 <gmaxwell> I think the problem with mining as a replacement is that the user can't easily obtain more or less participation.
 898 2013-11-26 10:47:42 <CodeShark> yeah, mining power isn't sufficiently a liquid asset
 899 2013-11-26 10:48:28 <CodeShark> if you could, say, buy a trillion hashes
 900 2013-11-26 10:49:51 cadaver has left ()
 901 2013-11-26 10:50:07 <CodeShark> then it becomes far more like a typical lottery
 902 2013-11-26 10:50:58 <gmaxwell> well, thats been done.. though I'm glad that business is currently dead.
 903 2013-11-26 10:51:08 <gmaxwell> since it had its own risks for the network.
 904 2013-11-26 10:51:51 <warren> which business?
 905 2013-11-26 10:52:34 <UukGoblin> renting mining hardware?
 906 2013-11-26 10:53:23 <warren> cex.io ?
 907 2013-11-26 10:53:46 <gmaxwell> e.g. pirate's mining thing. there were a couple others.
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 911 2013-11-26 11:12:13 <CodeShark> I guess this "buying a trillion hashes" thing is sort of a mining pool in reverse
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 914 2013-11-26 11:14:11 <CodeShark> rather than participants getting paid for mining shares, you could pay someone to mine specific blocks for you
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 917 2013-11-26 11:23:09 <Alina-malina> Hello! I am making a website with acepting bitcoins, i have a qt installed on my machine, how i can make it work that website every 10 minutes make a request to my computer and check if money on my walltets added or not? Is it possible?
 918 2013-11-26 11:23:58 <UukGoblin> Alina-malina, bitcoind (and bitcoin-qt) has a JSON-RPC interface, which, if enabled, can let you do just that
 919 2013-11-26 11:24:11 <UukGoblin> but be warned... this interface also allows one to spend funds from a wallet
 920 2013-11-26 11:24:47 <UukGoblin> so anyone who hacks your website will be potentially able to spend your funds, unless you take reasonable precautions
 921 2013-11-26 11:25:25 <Alina-malina> UukGoblin, thanks for your response, is it possible to make some api in my machine lets say with python so it check it and then send on server?
 922 2013-11-26 11:25:34 <Alina-malina> how i can realize that?
 923 2013-11-26 11:25:42 <CodeShark> the RPC is all through JSON-RPC
 924 2013-11-26 11:25:48 <CodeShark> via HTTP
 925 2013-11-26 11:25:58 <CodeShark> so as long as you can send HTTP requests, you can call it
 926 2013-11-26 11:26:22 <Alina-malina> but UukGoblin said that from the webserver they can spend my bitcoins?
 927 2013-11-26 11:26:34 <CodeShark> this is an extremely hackish way to do it
 928 2013-11-26 11:26:50 <UukGoblin> Alina-malina, weereikeibub
 929 2013-11-26 11:27:00 <UukGoblin> gah
 930 2013-11-26 11:27:11 <Alina-malina> CodeShark, how can i enable that feature?
 931 2013-11-26 11:27:21 <CodeShark> edit bitcoin.conf
 932 2013-11-26 11:27:38 <UukGoblin> Alina-malina, I meant https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
 933 2013-11-26 11:27:55 <CodeShark> make sure it has the line server=1
 934 2013-11-26 11:27:56 <Alina-malina> UukGoblin, There is currently no text in this page.
 935 2013-11-26 11:28:04 <Alina-malina> just a second
 936 2013-11-26 11:29:37 <Alina-malina> hmmm there is no file with name of bitcoin.conf in my qt
 937 2013-11-26 11:29:37 <CodeShark> if you want to avoid the issue UukGoblin mentioned, you can try stuff like this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2861
 938 2013-11-26 11:30:02 <CodeShark> be advised, though - the JSON-RPC is hardly designed for real payment processing
 939 2013-11-26 11:30:13 <CodeShark> it actually rather sucks :p
 940 2013-11-26 11:30:51 <CodeShark> Alina-malina: what OS are you using?
 941 2013-11-26 11:30:55 <Alina-malina> windos:)
 942 2013-11-26 11:30:56 hmmma has joined
 943 2013-11-26 11:31:35 <CodeShark> ok, look for the datadir
 944 2013-11-26 11:31:36 <CodeShark> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Data_directory#Windows
 945 2013-11-26 11:31:48 <CodeShark> inside that directory there should be a file called bitcoin.conf
 946 2013-11-26 11:32:12 <Alina-malina> oh ok just a moment please
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 948 2013-11-26 11:32:30 <wumpus> @warren isn't upgrading leveldb for a maintenance release a bit risky?
 949 2013-11-26 11:33:40 <Alina-malina> CodeShark, ok i am in that directory, but there is no such file there
 950 2013-11-26 11:34:10 <wumpus> unless it's necessary for the corruption fix, I'd prefer not to do it
 951 2013-11-26 11:34:14 <warren> wumpus: read sipa's notes on the upgrade in master, we've been testing it for quite a while in our builds, and I'm convinced that it solved other mac corruption prior to cfields memory barrier fix
 952 2013-11-26 11:34:14 <CodeShark> make sure hidden files are visible
 953 2013-11-26 11:34:37 <Alina-malina> yes they are
 954 2013-11-26 11:34:40 <Alina-malina> i just did
 955 2013-11-26 11:35:06 <wumpus> warren: hmm, right
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 957 2013-11-26 11:35:42 <UukGoblin> hm, bitcoin.conf isn't created by default I don't think... you might have to just create it yourself
 958 2013-11-26 11:35:52 <CodeShark> yeah, if it isn't there then you just need to create one
 959 2013-11-26 11:36:22 <CodeShark> there's an example here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_Bitcoin
 960 2013-11-26 11:36:24 <wumpus> git: 'subtree' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.    huh
 961 2013-11-26 11:36:38 <CodeShark> you need to install subtree separately
 962 2013-11-26 11:36:46 <Alina-malina> CodeShark, ok i am looking at the code
 963 2013-11-26 11:36:53 <Alina-malina> CodeShark, subtree?
 964 2013-11-26 11:37:01 <CodeShark> I was talking to wumpus, sorry
 965 2013-11-26 11:37:06 <Alina-malina> ok
 966 2013-11-26 11:37:44 <wumpus> CodeShark: ah, I see, the git included in ubuntu 12.04 doesn't have it yet
 967 2013-11-26 11:37:47 <Alina-malina> CodeShark, ok i need to go out now, i will be back in an hour and make it work then write to you thakns for your help!!
 968 2013-11-26 11:38:05 <CodeShark> Alina-malina: ok, good luck :)
 969 2013-11-26 11:38:33 <wumpus> I added the git-core PPA, let's hope that gives more luck
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 971 2013-11-26 11:39:31 <CodeShark> I remember there being a trick to installing it in ubuntu
 972 2013-11-26 11:39:36 <CodeShark> let me look in my notes
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 980 2013-11-26 11:42:21 <CodeShark> http://engineeredweb.com/blog/how-to-install-git-subtree/
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 982 2013-11-26 11:44:08 <wumpus> thanks
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 990 2013-11-26 11:51:50 <wumpus> warren: I've added the suggested patches, except for the extra logging, as seemingly it still needs work to sanitize the string for logging
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 992 2013-11-26 11:54:23 <warren> wumpus: TD said he's doing that real soon
 993 2013-11-26 11:54:50 <warren> wumpus: and the mac corruption memory barrier patch is looking very promising, hoping people test my builds real soon.
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 997 2013-11-26 11:56:05 <wumpus> okay!
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1066 2013-11-26 13:20:46 <jeremias> what to do when I constantly get "Transaction commit failed" messages?
1067 2013-11-26 13:20:59 <jeremias> what does that mean in practice?
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1113 2013-11-26 14:30:47 <jgarzik> Do we build static on Linux?
1114 2013-11-26 14:30:48 djcoin has joined
1115 2013-11-26 14:31:02 <jgarzik> My own build on Ubuntu 12.x LTS requires boost shared libs (as I expected)
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1117 2013-11-26 14:31:08 <jgarzik> but the official binary does not seem to
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1121 2013-11-26 14:35:19 TD is now known as TD[2]
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1123 2013-11-26 14:37:07 <sipa> jgarzik: hmm, i wasn't aware
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1130 2013-11-26 14:39:59 <jgarzik> sipa, indeed, boost is statically linked
1131 2013-11-26 14:40:09 <jgarzik> jgarzik@hum:~/tmp/bitcoin-0.8.5-linux/bin/64$ ldd bitcoind
1132 2013-11-26 14:40:09 <jgarzik> 	linux-vdso.so.1 =>  (0x00007fff0a15e000)
1133 2013-11-26 14:40:09 <jgarzik> 	libz.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libz.so.1 (0x00007feec76d8000)
1134 2013-11-26 14:40:09 <jgarzik> 	libdl.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 (0x00007feec74d4000)
1135 2013-11-26 14:40:09 <jgarzik> 	libpthread.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007feec72b6000)
1136 2013-11-26 14:40:09 <jgarzik> 	libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6 (0x00007feec6fb3000)
1137 2013-11-26 14:40:11 <jgarzik> 	libm.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so.6 (0x00007feec6cae000)
1138 2013-11-26 14:40:13 <jgarzik> 	libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x00007feec6a97000)
1139 2013-11-26 14:40:15 <jgarzik> 	libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x00007feec66ce000)
1140 2013-11-26 14:40:17 <jgarzik> 	/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007feec7914000)
1141 2013-11-26 14:40:40 <jgarzik> no wonder the binary is so fscking huge
1142 2013-11-26 14:41:17 <sipa> and openssl too?
1143 2013-11-26 14:41:31 <jgarzik> sipa, it appears so
1144 2013-11-26 14:41:43 <jgarzik> sipa, Qt and X11 libs are -not- static, in the Qt build
1145 2013-11-26 14:42:16 <jgarzik> sipa, looks like libdb is static
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1149 2013-11-26 14:45:14 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: is that the "Linux" build, or the Ubuntu PPA?
1150 2013-11-26 14:46:56 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, the build from the core dev team, posted on sf.net
1151 2013-11-26 14:47:14 <TD> jgarzik: it could be made to use DCE with some magic gcc/ld flags
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1156 2013-11-26 14:50:27 <nsh> is there a performance hit for that much static linking?
1157 2013-11-26 14:50:43 <sipa> i presumably for compatibility
1158 2013-11-26 14:50:45 <sipa> not for speed
1159 2013-11-26 14:50:56 <nsh> right
1160 2013-11-26 14:51:17 <jgarzik> performance hit?  probably a tiny performance win
1161 2013-11-26 14:51:43 <jgarzik> but performance change is so small, it's not worth worrying about.  usually shared libs are bigger win, holistically
1162 2013-11-26 14:52:27 <nsh> mmm
1163 2013-11-26 14:56:04 <jgarzik> nsh, static linking == statically computed branches, at compile time
1164 2013-11-26 14:56:23 <jgarzik> nsh, compiler just generates "jump <address>"
1165 2013-11-26 14:56:51 <jgarzik> nsh, dynamic linking involves multiple jumps, relocation tables, trampolines and other fun that slows down the process of a simple function call
1166 2013-11-26 14:58:12 <swulf--> thought w/ dynamic linking, the jump tables were patched at exe load.. ?
1167 2013-11-26 14:59:28 <Belxjander> jgarzik: no "jumptable" standard based LIB API spec?
1168 2013-11-26 14:59:32 <Emcy> trampolines rly
1169 2013-11-26 15:00:15 <kjj> I do an extra-static build on my boxes so that it is more portable between my compile box and my target distro
1170 2013-11-26 15:00:40 <jgarzik> That's the micro picture.  At a macro level, you don't have X copies of the same huge C library in memory.  Thus, dynamic linking.
1171 2013-11-26 15:00:54 <jgarzik> *don't want to
1172 2013-11-26 15:00:55 <kjj> but I honestly can't think of any other reason to want it more static
1173 2013-11-26 15:01:19 <jgarzik> Static linking also hides bugs, by preventing security upgrades-of-just-the-library
1174 2013-11-26 15:01:40 <jgarzik> A lib bug requires full-app rebuild, which might be easy to miss if, say, zlib is embedded 10 layers deep somewhere
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1177 2013-11-26 15:03:02 <jgarzik> swulf--, the technical specifics vary with architecture and OS
1178 2013-11-26 15:03:21 <jgarzik> some modern shared lib setups are quite efficient -- because you have a huge incentive to make them so
1179 2013-11-26 15:03:22 <kjj> my 0.8.3 build is 34 MB unstripped, or 6 MB stripped.
1180 2013-11-26 15:03:31 <Belxjander> jgarzik: one of the reasons I like AmigaOS development... creating a library has an OS wide single jumptable for the functions exported... and ALL programs simply link with using the JumpTable the Library provides for the function calls
1181 2013-11-26 15:03:35 <jgarzik> kjj, size(1) is your friend
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1183 2013-11-26 15:04:24 <Belxjander> jgarzik: very little overhead beyond the double-jump  [ jsr -> jmp -> func() ] and standardized so that the library CAN be upgraded
1184 2013-11-26 15:04:45 <jgarzik> Belxjander, sometimes that technique is used today.  Given a 64-bit address space, you can simply decide that library XYZ resides at 0x1234abcdnnnnnnnn
1185 2013-11-26 15:05:00 <kjj> 5345870   95040   19780 5460690  5352d2 /usr/src/bitcoin-0.8.3-linux/src/src/bitcoind.p2pool.stripped
1186 2013-11-26 15:05:16 <jgarzik> it works fine, as each process owns its own process space, opting into sharing etc.
1187 2013-11-26 15:05:21 <Belxjander> jgarzik: true... though AmigaOS is still somewhat restricted to a 32bit Address space at the moment
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1190 2013-11-26 15:08:14 <Belxjander> jgarzik: if I showed you what is needed for an AmigaOS shared library... would you be able to point me at what parts of the bitcoin sources would be usable for the "libbitcoin" and help me work out binding the two parts with a Makefile ?  (I'm not particularly familiar with the bitcoin source layout and would like to
1191 2013-11-26 15:08:15 <Belxjander> get something of a step towards making the code run... preferably with as few or not patching as possible)
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1198 2013-11-26 15:22:17 <jouke> TD: last few hours we get a lot of feedback from multibit users that transactions only get seen by 1 peer and the transaction never hits the network.
1199 2013-11-26 15:22:20 <jouke> Any idea?
1200 2013-11-26 15:23:34 andytoshi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1202 2013-11-26 15:24:13 <TD> jouke: who is "we" in this context?
1203 2013-11-26 15:24:56 <jouke> euh, bitonic. A company that receives a lot of transactions.
1204 2013-11-26 15:24:59 <TD> jouke: i think jim needs to upgrade to the latest bitcoinj, but it only came out a few days ago.
1205 2013-11-26 15:26:05 <TD> jouke: 0.10.3 resolved some issues like that which android users were seeing at least. i didn't think it'd affect multibit users much though. so perhaps there is some other issue. anyway, if you can get logs i will take a look but really jim needs to handle these
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1207 2013-11-26 15:26:56 <jouke> Ok. Maybe it was something about a seed node that is down at the moment or something.
1208 2013-11-26 15:28:45 <TD[2]> hmm
1209 2013-11-26 15:29:11 <TD> well sipa's seed is up and running at least
1210 2013-11-26 15:29:22 <TD> but it's hard to know without logs.
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1213 2013-11-26 15:30:23 <clocKwize> with the stratum protocol, how can I request more jobs?
1214 2013-11-26 15:31:15 <gigavps> clocKwize you don't
1215 2013-11-26 15:31:22 <gigavps> the pool tells you when to start new work
1216 2013-11-26 15:31:33 <gigavps> please ask these questions in #stratum
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1218 2013-11-26 15:32:17 <clocKwize> ok
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1224 2013-11-26 15:44:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;blocks
1225 2013-11-26 15:44:19 <gribble> 271625
1226 2013-11-26 15:44:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;bc,stats
1227 2013-11-26 15:44:28 <gribble> Current Blocks: 271625 | Current Difficulty: 6.094826798883545E8 | Next Difficulty At Block: 272159 | Next Difficulty In: 534 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 3 hours, 50 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 695102613.619 | Estimated Percent Change: 14.04797
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1290 2013-11-26 17:05:39 <diki> I want to ask, is it safe to assume that when parsing the blockchain, after finding the magic bytes, 84 bytes into the block I'd end up at the "Transaction count" varint?
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1298 2013-11-26 17:15:07 <osmosis> when working with python-bitcoinrpc, how do I get more verbose information for   raise JSONRPCException(response['error'])
1299 2013-11-26 17:15:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|diki: if there aren't any varints or optional fields before that, yes.
1300 2013-11-26 17:16:01 <diki> michagogo|cloud:What about any padding or garbage data?
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1304 2013-11-26 17:24:28 <CodeShark> osmosis: for experimenting with JSON-RPC, I would recommend testing things out with command line curl calls before doing it within a program
1305 2013-11-26 17:24:44 melvster has joined
1306 2013-11-26 17:25:04 <osmosis> CodeShark, ok good, yes im falling back to cmd line to look for the error. thx.
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1313 2013-11-26 17:40:59 <devrandom> TD: so would it be okay for now to turn on full auto-update of the bloom filter when a script watch is first added?  We can implement filter refresh in a follow-on, since that's applicable to existing wallets too
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1325 2013-11-26 17:52:53 <CodeShark> in practice, I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where it really makes sense to reuse the same signing key for different types of scripts
1326 2013-11-26 17:53:25 <CodeShark> which means that the format of the input claiming the coins should be predictable
1327 2013-11-26 17:53:43 <imton> guys, how can I get by rpc any sync error?
1328 2013-11-26 17:53:52 <imton> also, what does get info "time offset" means
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1332 2013-11-26 18:00:53 <CodeShark> imton: I do not understand your question
1333 2013-11-26 18:01:18 <imton> I am syncing my service using watch only wallet
1334 2013-11-26 18:01:28 <imton> I sync all transactions with 'listtransactions'
1335 2013-11-26 18:01:32 <imton> in background.
1336 2013-11-26 18:01:38 <imton> Sometimes, I am getting some errors
1337 2013-11-26 18:01:46 SwampTony has joined
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1339 2013-11-26 18:01:51 <imton> and list transactions is not working
1340 2013-11-26 18:01:58 <CodeShark> what type of errors?
1341 2013-11-26 18:02:07 <imton> well, they are different
1342 2013-11-26 18:02:24 <imton> the worst near now was listransactions suddenly didn't listed transactions
1343 2013-11-26 18:02:45 <CodeShark> is it a bitcoind error? or a network transport error?
1344 2013-11-26 18:02:48 <imton> so my service showed 0 BTC for the accounts
1345 2013-11-26 18:02:57 <imton> I am trying to debug
1346 2013-11-26 18:03:02 enodios has left ()
1347 2013-11-26 18:03:09 <imton> I think it was a network error from bitcoind
1348 2013-11-26 18:03:14 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1349 2013-11-26 18:03:41 <CodeShark> run curl -v to get verbose information about the error
1350 2013-11-26 18:04:06 <imton> I am doing that
1351 2013-11-26 18:04:10 <imton> but I closed terminal
1352 2013-11-26 18:04:14 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1353 2013-11-26 18:04:17 <imton> :S
1354 2013-11-26 18:04:44 digitalmagus2 has joined
1355 2013-11-26 18:05:07 <CodeShark> don't even try debugging network errors from within your program
1356 2013-11-26 18:05:12 <CodeShark> first diagnose them using command line tools
1357 2013-11-26 18:05:50 Eiii has joined
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1359 2013-11-26 18:06:08 <CodeShark> also, you might want to improve your error handling so that your program can detect network errors and recover more gracefully
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1361 2013-11-26 18:06:22 <CodeShark> for instance, it can show N/A instead of 0 for balance
1362 2013-11-26 18:06:28 <imton> yeah
1363 2013-11-26 18:06:33 <imton> that's what I want
1364 2013-11-26 18:06:38 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1365 2013-11-26 18:06:47 <imton> but I don't know how to be aware of that bitcoind is failing
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1367 2013-11-26 18:07:06 <imton> unless bitcoind rpc throws an exception, which I already catch it and that is correctly handled
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1369 2013-11-26 18:07:30 <imton> the problem is when there is no exception from bitcoind rpc, I need to first know what caused It
1370 2013-11-26 18:07:43 <imton> and it did happened to me right now but I  can't realize what was it
1371 2013-11-26 18:07:53 <CodeShark> bitcoind rpc doesn't throw exceptions - it just returns JSON-RPC responses, which can include an error field
1372 2013-11-26 18:08:22 <imton> well, I convert them to exceptions in ruby
1373 2013-11-26 18:08:33 <imton> not even me, a gem/library
1374 2013-11-26 18:08:52 <CodeShark> ok, then the specifics of how to catch network errors depend on the client library you're using
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1379 2013-11-26 18:10:24 <imton> I think I saw an error that said something like bitcoind peers can't agree on a block
1380 2013-11-26 18:10:27 go1111111 has joined
1381 2013-11-26 18:10:35 <imton> but I can't find the exact text
1382 2013-11-26 18:10:46 <imton> I don't know why I closed terminal :(
1383 2013-11-26 18:11:02 <imton> btw I am on testnet
1384 2013-11-26 18:11:06 <CodeShark> hmm, I highly doubt the JSON-RPC would return an error resembling anything like that
1385 2013-11-26 18:11:15 <imton> it did
1386 2013-11-26 18:11:32 ThomasV has joined
1387 2013-11-26 18:11:39 <imton> that was the weird part, and my library didn't catch it
1388 2013-11-26 18:11:52 <imton> It was there for 10 minutes de problem
1389 2013-11-26 18:11:53 <CodeShark> for listtransactions?
1390 2013-11-26 18:12:04 <imton> I think so
1391 2013-11-26 18:12:20 <imton> or getrawtransaction
1392 2013-11-26 18:12:27 <imton> that are the only 2 calls I do
1393 2013-11-26 18:12:29 <imton> to rpc
1394 2013-11-26 18:12:45 <CodeShark> neither of those calls has anything to do with bitcoind peers agreeing on a block
1395 2013-11-26 18:13:07 <imton> I know
1396 2013-11-26 18:13:15 <imton> but I got that text
1397 2013-11-26 18:13:19 <imton> somewhat
1398 2013-11-26 18:14:15 erska has joined
1399 2013-11-26 18:14:21 <CodeShark> the only errors that bitcoind returns for those methods have to do with invalid parameters
1400 2013-11-26 18:15:21 datagutt has joined
1401 2013-11-26 18:16:19 <CodeShark> anyhow, call the RPC methods from command line - first diagnose and fix any network/transport layer/ssl issues
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1403 2013-11-26 18:16:36 <CodeShark> once you've done that, diagnose any bitcoind errors
1404 2013-11-26 18:16:51 <CodeShark> only once you've done that, try calling the RPC from within your program
1405 2013-11-26 18:17:18 <imton> I am not having any network error I think, if bitcoind crashes my services instantly is aware of it and will stop serving
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1408 2013-11-26 18:17:35 <imton> and will not report $0, because it read from a cache (redis)
1409 2013-11-26 18:17:43 <CodeShark> you need to replace the "i think" with "I'm sure"
1410 2013-11-26 18:17:45 <imton> the problem is if list transactions reports no transactions
1411 2013-11-26 18:18:01 <imton> well, that I am sure
1412 2013-11-26 18:18:24 <imton> I tested it a lot of times , which is as easy as to close bitcoind
1413 2013-11-26 18:18:37 <imton> that exception handling is working properly
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1415 2013-11-26 18:19:00 <CodeShark> when you call listtransactions from the command line, does it return what you expect?
1416 2013-11-26 18:19:01 <imton> the problem is that the first time that my background syncing script runs
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1418 2013-11-26 18:19:07 <imton> yes, it does
1419 2013-11-26 18:19:21 <CodeShark> so then the problem seems to be within your program's logic
1420 2013-11-26 18:19:42 <imton> well.. if list transactions report no transactions
1421 2013-11-26 18:20:07 <imton> there is no way my program is able to distinguish that if it does not known there is a failure in bitcoind sync
1422 2013-11-26 18:20:13 <imton> which is what I think happened to me
1423 2013-11-26 18:20:22 <imton> I am trying to find the error I saw
1424 2013-11-26 18:22:11 <CodeShark> to diagnose errors within bitcoind itself, check debug.log
1425 2013-11-26 18:23:31 hemry has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1427 2013-11-26 18:24:16 <imton> found
1428 2013-11-26 18:24:23 <imton> this is what I've got
1429 2013-11-26 18:24:26 <imton> "Warning: The network does not appear to fully agree! Some miners appear to be experiencing issues."
1430 2013-11-26 18:24:45 <imton> and in main.cpp
1431 2013-11-26 18:24:49 <imton> there is "        strStatusBar = strRPC = _("Warning: The network does not appear to fully agree! Some miners appear to be experiencing issues."); "
1432 2013-11-26 18:24:59 <imton> so I think it is reported to RPC
1433 2013-11-26 18:25:13 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
1434 2013-11-26 18:25:36 <imton> which is what I've got and I don't know why but it didn't get converted to an exception by the ruby library I use
1435 2013-11-26 18:26:06 <imton> the weird thing is that "list transactions" was reporting zero transaction, instead of the error I think
1436 2013-11-26 18:26:14 <imton> I have no idea how to reproduce this
1437 2013-11-26 18:28:05 mynameis has joined
1438 2013-11-26 18:28:06 <CodeShark> what version of bitcoind are you using?
1439 2013-11-26 18:28:10 <CodeShark> which build?
1440 2013-11-26 18:28:18 hemry has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1441 2013-11-26 18:29:36 <imton> master
1442 2013-11-26 18:30:08 <CodeShark> what does getinfo return?
1443 2013-11-26 18:30:25 <imton> well, now it working properly, as it did from the past 2 weeks
1444 2013-11-26 18:30:50 <imton> it was just there for about 10 minutes that I just catch it
1445 2013-11-26 18:31:01 <imton> I remember I did a getinfo
1446 2013-11-26 18:31:07 <imton> and it returned properly
1447 2013-11-26 18:31:27 <imton> let me find what it returned, I might have it
1448 2013-11-26 18:31:41 <CodeShark> do you have any timestamps for when you got that warning?
1449 2013-11-26 18:31:59 starsoccer has joined
1450 2013-11-26 18:31:59 <imton> it was on test net, 30 minutes ago
1451 2013-11-26 18:32:12 <imton> but I might, let me check terminal
1452 2013-11-26 18:32:14 <CodeShark> ah - yeah, on testnet forks are to be expected every now and then
1453 2013-11-26 18:32:35 <imton> what
1454 2013-11-26 18:32:51 <CodeShark> well, testnet is full of people trying to break bitcoin
1455 2013-11-26 18:32:59 <CodeShark> that's sort of what it's for
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1457 2013-11-26 18:33:05 <imton> oh yeah
1458 2013-11-26 18:33:31 <imton> so now I would like to reproduce it so I see why my program didn't handle it properly
1459 2013-11-26 18:33:36 Guyver2 has quit (Quit: :))
1460 2013-11-26 18:33:36 <imton> and I showed $0
1461 2013-11-26 18:33:39 <imton> instead of ERROR
1462 2013-11-26 18:33:48 <imton> or N/A
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1467 2013-11-26 18:37:00 <CodeShark> my recommendation, then, would be to log the raw JSON-RPC responses so if it happens again you can figure it out
1468 2013-11-26 18:37:09 <imton>  yeah
1469 2013-11-26 18:37:20 <imton> I'd like to know
1470 2013-11-26 18:37:23 <imton> for testing purposes
1471 2013-11-26 18:37:28 <imton> how can I reproduce this errors?
1472 2013-11-26 18:37:40 <imton> because I'd like to start writing automated integration tests
1473 2013-11-26 18:38:02 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
1474 2013-11-26 18:38:04 <CodeShark> well, in principle you could fabricate the error by writing a dummy JSON-RPC server
1475 2013-11-26 18:38:11 <imton> well yeah
1476 2013-11-26 18:38:19 <CodeShark> which returns a response that is formatted exactly the same way as the bitcoind messages
1477 2013-11-26 18:38:33 <imton> but first I'd like to know how that error that I've got
1478 2013-11-26 18:38:36 <imton> is
1479 2013-11-26 18:38:37 <imton> .
1480 2013-11-26 18:38:45 <imton> how can I force bitcoind to throw that error ?
1481 2013-11-26 18:39:25 <CodeShark> remove if (fLargeWorkForkFound)
1482 2013-11-26 18:39:38 <CodeShark> just make it if (true)
1483 2013-11-26 18:40:26 <imton> thanks, will git it a try
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1547 2013-11-26 19:38:01 <edcba> are there offline tools to inspect wallet / bitcoin chain ?
1548 2013-11-26 19:38:18 <warren> seriously.  zero feedback on the macosx corruption testing from users?
1549 2013-11-26 19:38:41 <edcba> maybe they don't want to try to reproduce ? :)
1550 2013-11-26 19:39:46 <warren> lots of people were reproducing and unable to use it before
1551 2013-11-26 19:39:54 <warren> and now that we think we fixed it, nobody is testing it
1552 2013-11-26 19:40:53 <Luke-Jr> warren: as I said, you made it look like something users were ineligible for..
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1584 2013-11-26 20:13:16 <edcba> has client less functionnalities ? from what i see using a wallet dump, i tagged some output address but with latest version i only get the address without the tag
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1590 2013-11-26 20:19:55 BCB has joined
1591 2013-11-26 20:20:36 <BCB> how do I get only addresses with balances in bitcoind
1592 2013-11-26 20:21:13 shesek has joined
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1594 2013-11-26 20:22:44 <tommygunner> listaddressgroupings
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1596 2013-11-26 20:23:57 deepc0re_ is now known as deepc0re
1597 2013-11-26 20:24:04 <Luke-Jr> BCB: addresses don't have balances
1598 2013-11-26 20:24:23 <BCB> Luke-Jr: hmmm
1599 2013-11-26 20:25:07 jps has joined
1600 2013-11-26 20:25:10 <BCB> Luke-Jr: getbalance is showing  a balance but I can't see them all in list transactions
1601 2013-11-26 20:25:26 <Luke-Jr> BCB: see what all? O.o
1602 2013-11-26 20:26:00 <BCB> I keep track of coins in accounts
1603 2013-11-26 20:26:11 <Luke-Jr> accounts don't hold coins
1604 2013-11-26 20:26:23 <Luke-Jr> accounts are pure balance
1605 2013-11-26 20:26:29 <BCB> of what
1606 2013-11-26 20:26:34 <Luke-Jr> of bitcoins
1607 2013-11-26 20:26:38 <Luke-Jr> they're just a number
1608 2013-11-26 20:26:46 nomailing has joined
1609 2013-11-26 20:26:47 <Luke-Jr> you can make accounts negative balance if you want
1610 2013-11-26 20:27:02 <TD> woo, finally got smart card signing up and running
1611 2013-11-26 20:27:06 rdymac has joined
1612 2013-11-26 20:27:12 <BCB> so if my get balance is larger then I must have some negative balances
1613 2013-11-26 20:27:34 <jaakkos> TD: do you have a smart card that signs secp256k1?
1614 2013-11-26 20:27:38 <TD> that was more screwing around than was really warranted
1615 2013-11-26 20:27:38 <TD> no
1616 2013-11-26 20:27:44 <BCB> so how do I find "accounts" with neg balances
1617 2013-11-26 20:27:46 <TD> just a plain old pkcs#11 setup
1618 2013-11-26 20:27:50 <jaakkos> ok
1619 2013-11-26 20:28:00 <TD> AFAIK there are no smart cards that sign secp256k1
1620 2013-11-26 20:28:06 <jaakkos> yep that's what i though
1621 2013-11-26 20:28:11 <TD> this one is a suisseid, it's for signing documents and emails and things
1622 2013-11-26 20:28:26 <Luke-Jr> BCB: listaccounts?
1623 2013-11-26 20:28:31 <BCB> yes
1624 2013-11-26 20:28:42 <TD> i think theoretically you could send me encrypted mail with it too, but i haven't tried that
1625 2013-11-26 20:28:45 <pigeons> yeah careful with accounts feature
1626 2013-11-26 20:28:59 <Luke-Jr> TD: there was someone giving away bitcoin-compatible smartcards in San Jose..
1627 2013-11-26 20:29:30 <BCB> tommygunner: can I run listaddressgroupings and only return non-zero addresses?
1628 2013-11-26 20:29:42 <TD> yeah. this one isn't bitcoin specific. it's part of the pki - private key is signed by the swiss government and stored in the smart card. it works pretty well, all my main apps seem to support it
1629 2013-11-26 20:30:02 <TD> mail.app, chrome, safari, firefox, i guess other apps can use it too
1630 2013-11-26 20:30:14 <TD> you can log in to websites with it, if they support that
1631 2013-11-26 20:30:38 <Luke-Jr> was just commenting on the secp256k1 thing
1632 2013-11-26 20:31:00 abc4btc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1633 2013-11-26 20:31:00 <TD> ah i see
1634 2013-11-26 20:31:04 <TD> i wonder where they got the cards from
1635 2013-11-26 20:31:08 <BCB> Luke-Jr: listaccounts show all accounts.  Is there a way to just list non-zero accounts
1636 2013-11-26 20:31:10 <BCB> ?
1637 2013-11-26 20:31:32 <sipa> i don't think so
1638 2013-11-26 20:31:57 <Luke-Jr> BCB: grep? <.<
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1643 2013-11-26 20:41:06 <bitanarchy> how can i force a rebroadcast of a transaction with bitcoin-qt
1644 2013-11-26 20:41:08 <bitanarchy> ?
1645 2013-11-26 20:41:30 <sipa> just wait
1646 2013-11-26 20:41:39 <Apocalyptic> bitanarchy, with sendrawtransaction if you have it
1647 2013-11-26 20:41:41 <sipa> it gets rebroadcasted every 15-30 minutes automatically
1648 2013-11-26 20:42:27 <bitanarchy> i closed the client because no peers appeared
1649 2013-11-26 20:42:30 <bitanarchy> restarted
1650 2013-11-26 20:42:43 <Luke-Jr> Apocalyptic: sendrawtransaction will fail
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1665 2013-11-26 20:51:23 <imton> sipa: is there a way to remove a watch only address?
1666 2013-11-26 20:51:37 <sipa> no
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1668 2013-11-26 20:51:48 <imton> sipa: motive?
1669 2013-11-26 20:52:00 <sipa> unclear semantics
1670 2013-11-26 20:52:15 <sipa> and dangerous (for spendable keys at least)
1671 2013-11-26 20:52:30 <sipa> for watch-only it may make sense
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1673 2013-11-26 20:53:13 <imton> watch only I say
1674 2013-11-26 20:53:27 <sipa> yes
1675 2013-11-26 20:54:22 <sipa> but watch-only functionality mimics the functionality for normal keys
1676 2013-11-26 20:54:29 <imton> yeah
1677 2013-11-26 20:54:44 patcon has joined
1678 2013-11-26 20:55:01 <imton> I was wondering how much overload/effort is for bitcoind watch say 100 address that to watch 10.000
1679 2013-11-26 20:55:04 <shesek> bitanarchy, afaik bitcoin-qt won't let you do that, but you can use one of the pushtx services if you have the raw transaction
1680 2013-11-26 20:55:24 <bitanarchy> i dont have the raw transaction
1681 2013-11-26 20:55:25 <shesek> tho it probably won't help speed it up, if that's what you're hoping for
1682 2013-11-26 20:55:34 <bitanarchy> but the qt client knows it
1683 2013-11-26 20:55:44 <shesek> run getrawtransaction <txid>
1684 2013-11-26 20:55:51 <imton> sipa: ^ *than
1685 2013-11-26 20:55:56 <shesek> copy, and paste to blockchain.info/sipatx
1686 2013-11-26 20:56:03 <shesek> heh, lol, how did this happen?
1687 2013-11-26 20:56:06 <warren> sipa: hmm, perhaps people who need watchonly for now could just import a large number of keys, encrypt to a huge random passphrase and forget the passphrase.
1688 2013-11-26 20:56:06 <shesek> I meant pushtx
1689 2013-11-26 20:56:13 <shesek> while reading "sipa"... got mixed up somehow
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1692 2013-11-26 20:58:46 <BCB> Luke-Jr: I have two accounts with the same name each showing a separate balance
1693 2013-11-26 20:59:03 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1694 2013-11-26 20:59:05 joecool_ has joined
1695 2013-11-26 20:59:08 <BCB> Luke-Jr: when I run getaddressbyaccount is show one address
1696 2013-11-26 20:59:27 <BCB> Luke-Jr:  and when I run getbalance on that address is shows 0 balance
1697 2013-11-26 20:59:33 <Luke-Jr> … getaddressbyaccount does not exist
1698 2013-11-26 20:59:36 <BCB> Luke-Jr: how can I correct that
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1701 2013-11-26 20:59:39 <Luke-Jr> addresses don't have balances
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1705 2013-11-26 20:59:57 <BCB> hmmmm
1706 2013-11-26 21:00:21 <pigeons> and thats an example of why using the accounts feature at all is a scary hassle
1707 2013-11-26 21:00:32 <bitanarchy> it cannot push it because it already exists
1708 2013-11-26 21:00:34 <andytoshi> i wonder if we want bitcoind to output utxo's, and have the address hanging off of it as an attribute
1709 2013-11-26 21:00:37 <andytoshi> to avoid this confusion
1710 2013-11-26 21:00:47 <pigeons> listunspent
1711 2013-11-26 21:00:50 <Luke-Jr> pigeons: nah, it's simple. BCB's just trying (and failing) to outsmart it or something
1712 2013-11-26 21:01:12 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: there are no addresses on UTXOs
1713 2013-11-26 21:01:27 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: encouraging this confusion doesn't help
1714 2013-11-26 21:01:31 <BCB> Luke-Jr: so what is getbalance reading?
1715 2013-11-26 21:01:39 <pigeons> accounts
1716 2013-11-26 21:01:43 <pigeons> don't use them
1717 2013-11-26 21:01:53 <Luke-Jr> BCB: with an account specified, the balance of that account
1718 2013-11-26 21:02:03 <Luke-Jr> BCB: without, the balance of the whole wallet
1719 2013-11-26 21:02:12 <BCB> and the whole wallet is....
1720 2013-11-26 21:02:18 <BCB> list of unspent inputs
1721 2013-11-26 21:02:19 <BCB> ?
1722 2013-11-26 21:02:21 <BCB> total
1723 2013-11-26 21:02:25 <Luke-Jr> sure
1724 2013-11-26 21:02:26 <pigeons> all the coins that can be spent by the keys in the wallet
1725 2013-11-26 21:02:31 <bitanarchy> shesek: Blockchain says the transaction already exists. Does that mean the transaction is valid?
1726 2013-11-26 21:02:35 AusBitBank has joined
1727 2013-11-26 21:02:39 <BCB> very confusing
1728 2013-11-26 21:02:40 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: listunspent does exactly what i suggested
1729 2013-11-26 21:02:54 <bitanarchy> oh wow
1730 2013-11-26 21:02:57 <andytoshi> did i mean to say txin?
1731 2013-11-26 21:03:00 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: maybe it shouldn't.
1732 2013-11-26 21:03:07 <shesek> bitanarchy, yes, valid, and already relayed to their servers
1733 2013-11-26 21:03:14 <Luke-Jr> BCB: only because you have some misconceptions
1734 2013-11-26 21:03:23 <andytoshi> well, the transactions definitely have a key associated to them which is needed to sign a message spending them
1735 2013-11-26 21:03:34 <andytoshi> and there is a bijection between keys and addresses..
1736 2013-11-26 21:03:36 <shesek> just wait. its well propagated, there's nothing more you can do
1737 2013-11-26 21:03:38 <BCB> Luke-Jr: so clear them up for me
1738 2013-11-26 21:03:48 <Luke-Jr> BCB: addresses are not accounts or wallets
1739 2013-11-26 21:03:57 <BCB> ok
1740 2013-11-26 21:03:59 <Luke-Jr> BCB: they're single-use pointers to an account
1741 2013-11-26 21:04:03 <Luke-Jr> for receiving only
1742 2013-11-26 21:04:08 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1743 2013-11-26 21:04:18 <BCB> Luke-Jr: as in "listaccounts"
1744 2013-11-26 21:04:27 <Luke-Jr> BCB: they point to an account there, yes
1745 2013-11-26 21:04:31 <BCB> ok
1746 2013-11-26 21:04:41 <Luke-Jr> once an address receives a transaction, it is no longer relevant at all
1747 2013-11-26 21:04:47 <shesek> well, to be fair, addresses do have a balance (i.e. all the inputs that can be spent by the private key of the public key hashed by that address)
1748 2013-11-26 21:04:56 <shesek> but its probably not what you want to be looking at, BCB
1749 2013-11-26 21:05:00 <Luke-Jr> shesek: that's not the address
1750 2013-11-26 21:05:06 <shesek> what are you expecting the gain from checking that balance?
1751 2013-11-26 21:05:22 <shesek> what's not?
1752 2013-11-26 21:05:24 <Luke-Jr> shesek: that's an ECDSA keypair, and none of those UTXOs are inherently related
1753 2013-11-26 21:05:33 <andytoshi> shesek: this caused me a lot of confusion when i first came into the project, i did not realize there could be multiple inputs
1754 2013-11-26 21:05:40 Emcy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1755 2013-11-26 21:05:41 <andytoshi> and that they had nothing to do with each other
1756 2013-11-26 21:05:51 <sipa> checking how much you have received on an address makes sense, e.g. to check whether a requested payment has been fullfilled
1757 2013-11-26 21:06:03 saulimus has joined
1758 2013-11-26 21:06:07 <sipa> but you don't care how much is "left" there - you move around coins all the time in your wallet
1759 2013-11-26 21:06:23 <BCB> sipa: 'YOU" or bitcoind moves the coins around
1760 2013-11-26 21:06:23 <sipa> you don't care what address your current coins are assigned to
1761 2013-11-26 21:06:27 <sipa> you
1762 2013-11-26 21:06:35 <Luke-Jr> meh, coins aren't assigned to addresses
1763 2013-11-26 21:06:36 <shesek> Luke-Jr, well, regular pay-to-pubkey-hash addresses do represent a a key-pair
1764 2013-11-26 21:06:37 <BCB> sipa why don't I care
1765 2013-11-26 21:06:51 <sipa> BCB: because wallets do that for you
1766 2013-11-26 21:06:59 <BCB> so what is a wallet
1767 2013-11-26 21:07:00 <shesek> and they're related to inputs by "which inputs can be spent by signing a digital signature with this private key"
1768 2013-11-26 21:07:00 <andytoshi> shesek: Luke-Jr is drawing a hard distinction between (user-visible) addresses and keys..
1769 2013-11-26 21:07:10 mynameis has joined
1770 2013-11-26 21:07:11 <sipa> BCB: a wallet is a collection of unspent coins, and the keys to spend them
1771 2013-11-26 21:07:11 <Luke-Jr> shesek: no, they translate to a hash of a public key, but the address itself is an opaque destination
1772 2013-11-26 21:07:18 <andytoshi> i think everyone here is in agreeance, and confusing BCB :)
1773 2013-11-26 21:07:49 <BCB> sipa: so what are the keys.  the privkeys
1774 2013-11-26 21:08:03 <Luke-Jr> BCB: nothing you need to worry about unless you're implementing wallet software
1775 2013-11-26 21:08:05 <sipa> some random pieces of data
1776 2013-11-26 21:08:22 <BCB> but the privkey controls the value no
1777 2013-11-26 21:08:24 <BCB> ?
1778 2013-11-26 21:08:28 <sipa> no, the coins do
1779 2013-11-26 21:08:36 <andytoshi> sipa: i dunno about that, the abstraction leaks in that address reuse directly corresponds to key reuse
1780 2013-11-26 21:08:45 <sipa> andytoshi: yes
1781 2013-11-26 21:08:48 <andytoshi> re "some random pieces of data"
1782 2013-11-26 21:08:51 <BCB> sipa: what is a coin
1783 2013-11-26 21:08:59 <sipa> BCB: an unspent transaction output
1784 2013-11-26 21:09:05 <BCB> hmmm
1785 2013-11-26 21:09:06 Emcy has joined
1786 2013-11-26 21:09:16 <sipa> coins are assigned to addresses
1787 2013-11-26 21:09:21 <BCB> sipa that is controled by a priveky
1788 2013-11-26 21:09:24 <deepc0re> when are stored orphans deleted? my mapz is around 5000 now.
1789 2013-11-26 21:09:29 <Luke-Jr> to ECDSA keypairs, not addresses!
1790 2013-11-26 21:09:38 <sipa> Luke-Jr: to be correct, to scripts
1791 2013-11-26 21:09:47 <BCB> and what is a script
1792 2013-11-26 21:09:52 <sipa> and scripts can have associated keys that can spend them
1793 2013-11-26 21:09:53 <andytoshi> :) here we go..
1794 2013-11-26 21:10:03 <Luke-Jr> I guess technically it's not an assignment either.. just a condition to spend :p
1795 2013-11-26 21:10:10 maloto has quit ()
1796 2013-11-26 21:10:16 <danneu> i finally implemented op-checksig
1797 2013-11-26 21:10:25 <Luke-Jr> danneu: correctly?
1798 2013-11-26 21:10:43 <Luke-Jr> … OP_CHECKSIG OP_0 OP_EQUALS <-- does this work? ;)
1799 2013-11-26 21:11:17 <BCB> so scripts have associated keys that can spend coins which are unspent transaction outputs
1800 2013-11-26 21:11:41 <sipa> BCB: the whole point is that you shouldn't care what's going on inside your wallet
1801 2013-11-26 21:11:54 <BCB> sipa: why not
1802 2013-11-26 21:11:56 <sipa> BCB: from the outside view, wallets have some addresses at which they can receive coins
1803 2013-11-26 21:12:01 <sipa> and they have a balance
1804 2013-11-26 21:12:07 <sipa> the _wallet_ has a balance
1805 2013-11-26 21:12:19 <Luke-Jr> BCB: because you're not implementing wallet software
1806 2013-11-26 21:12:25 <danneu> implemented naively*. is there an idiosyncrasy with that stack evaluation?
1807 2013-11-26 21:12:27 <sipa> yes, you can define the balance of an address too - it is technically well-defined - but don't do that
1808 2013-11-26 21:12:41 <sipa> it means you're micromanaging your wallet
1809 2013-11-26 21:12:45 <sipa> let the software do that for you
1810 2013-11-26 21:12:46 <Luke-Jr> danneu: some buggy alt implementations caused the script to immediately fail if OP_CHECKSIG failed
1811 2013-11-26 21:12:47 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
1812 2013-11-26 21:12:51 <andytoshi> ah
1813 2013-11-26 21:12:58 <andytoshi> i was wondering what the trick was
1814 2013-11-26 21:13:21 <danneu> Luke-Jr: oh. shame on them. 1 or 0 baby.
1815 2013-11-26 21:14:31 go1111111 has joined
1816 2013-11-26 21:14:36 <andytoshi> BCB: i think you should learn how P2SH transactions work, they are (a) much simpler, (b) illustrate the interaction between scripts, coins, txins, txouts, etc, and (c) illustrate why there is no point in knowing the details of specific payment mechanisms (i.e. addresses)
1817 2013-11-26 21:14:51 <andytoshi> e.g.*
1818 2013-11-26 21:14:57 <BCB> andytoshi: ok thanks.  I'll check it out
1819 2013-11-26 21:15:44 <andytoshi> having said that, i do think it's worthwhile to know what addresses are..because shouting "don't reuse them" by fiat does not seem like a good PR strategy
1820 2013-11-26 21:16:10 <BCB> andytoshi: whys that
1821 2013-11-26 21:16:27 <shesek> so, does anyone want to give me some feedback on a multisig web interface I'm working on?
1822 2013-11-26 21:16:33 Emcy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1823 2013-11-26 21:16:42 <CodeShark> shesek: let's see it
1824 2013-11-26 21:16:50 <andytoshi> BCB: well, reusing addresses in bitcoin corresponds to reusing keys for signed messages, which is not best practice
1825 2013-11-26 21:16:59 <andytoshi> but that's completely nonobvious if an "address" is an opaque blob
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1828 2013-11-26 21:17:32 <danneu> what is the purpose of the distinguishing between p2sh vs p2pubkey vs p2addr aside from knowing when a byteblob can be converted into an address?
1829 2013-11-26 21:17:36 <BCB> andytoshi: I assumed that if I received 1btc to PUBKEY1 then the value is controled by PRIVKEY1
1830 2013-11-26 21:17:43 <BCB> andytoshi: but I guess that is not the case
1831 2013-11-26 21:18:15 <CodeShark> the whole concept of an "address" was silly from the getgo considering that it's just three bytes short of the full output script - and using the full output script would mean full generality
1832 2013-11-26 21:18:18 <andytoshi> BCB: that is correct, but if you receive 1btc to PUBKEY1, then another 1btc to PUBKEY1, even though they are both controlled by PRIVKEY1 they are separate transaction inputs
1833 2013-11-26 21:18:33 MobPhone has joined
1834 2013-11-26 21:18:44 <BCB> andytoshi: interesting.  And that means....
1835 2013-11-26 21:18:44 flatfly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1836 2013-11-26 21:18:48 <CodeShark> to save three bytes, we now need special code to handle each case
1837 2013-11-26 21:18:52 <andytoshi> and when you spend them, they will be signed separately by different keys
1838 2013-11-26 21:18:55 <andytoshi> the same key*
1839 2013-11-26 21:19:03 daybyter has joined
1840 2013-11-26 21:19:14 <BCB> andytoshi: but I don't reuse addresses
1841 2013-11-26 21:19:26 <BCB> all addresses only receive 1 transaction in
1842 2013-11-26 21:19:44 <andytoshi> yeah, that's best practice, but it's good to ask why we do the things we do
1843 2013-11-26 21:19:45 freewil has joined
1844 2013-11-26 21:21:18 <BCB> andytoshi: is P2SH transactions the same as multisig??
1845 2013-11-26 21:21:50 <deepc0re>  when are stored oprhan tx's deleted from the client?
1846 2013-11-26 21:21:53 <andytoshi> BCB: no, p2sh is very general
1847 2013-11-26 21:22:07 <BCB> ok
1848 2013-11-26 21:22:08 <BCB> thx
1849 2013-11-26 21:22:09 <andytoshi> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0016 has an overview, but it doesn't really make sense until you read about transactions or scripting..
1850 2013-11-26 21:22:22 <andytoshi> or at least, what scriptSig and scriptPubKey are
1851 2013-11-26 21:22:45 <CodeShark> I think we should change those names to input script and output script :)
1852 2013-11-26 21:22:55 <BCB> andytoshi: is there a a link for scriptSig and scriptPubkey
1853 2013-11-26 21:22:57 <BCB> ino
1854 2013-11-26 21:22:59 <BCB> info
1855 2013-11-26 21:23:12 <CodeShark> if they were simply called input scripts and output scripts, it would save a lot of explaining
1856 2013-11-26 21:23:29 <BCB> CodeShark: I'm all for simplicity
1857 2013-11-26 21:23:33 <andytoshi> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script maybe
1858 2013-11-26 21:23:36 <BCB> thx
1859 2013-11-26 21:24:03 <andytoshi> oh, the first link in that article, to "transactions", is what you want
1860 2013-11-26 21:24:06 <CodeShark> scriptSig = input script, scriptPubKey = output script. the output script is concatenated to the input script, then passed through the scripting engine
1861 2013-11-26 21:24:13 <danneu> yeah, :txIn/script and :txOut/script were the first deviations i made from the bitcoin lingo in my own system
1862 2013-11-26 21:24:23 <CodeShark> if it returns true, the transaction is valid - otherwise, the transaction is invalid
1863 2013-11-26 21:24:37 <CodeShark> we must do this for all inputs of a transaction
1864 2013-11-26 21:25:11 <CodeShark> I should rephrase that - if the scripting engine returns true for all input/output pairs, the transaction is considered valid
1865 2013-11-26 21:25:19 <CodeShark> if it returns false for any, the transaction is rejected
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1868 2013-11-26 21:26:16 kinglet has joined
1869 2013-11-26 21:27:45 <CodeShark> I've abandoned all notions of "address" in my internal bitcoin lingo except for user-facing stuff
1870 2013-11-26 21:27:52 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1871 2013-11-26 21:28:41 <CodeShark> for p2pubkey hash and p2sh I construct unsigned input/output script pairs and only use that internally
1872 2013-11-26 21:28:44 c0rw1n has joined
1873 2013-11-26 21:30:29 <CodeShark> payment requests still might show an address and/or qr code just because everyone seems to use that right now
1874 2013-11-26 21:30:57 <CodeShark> but I prefer to use the full output script whenever possible
1875 2013-11-26 21:31:22 hmmma has joined
1876 2013-11-26 21:31:27 <CodeShark> that makes it possible to implement any type of transaction with no change to the API/UI
1877 2013-11-26 21:32:28 <CodeShark> if anything, special cases could be thought of merely as a form of "compression"
1878 2013-11-26 21:33:47 <CodeShark> as for base58, we can still use base58 encoding of the full output if we want
1879 2013-11-26 21:34:21 <CodeShark> and rather than adding version bytes, we might as well just prepend ascii
1880 2013-11-26 21:35:02 <CodeShark> and we also should use a real checksum, which could include the ascii prefix along with the base58 string
1881 2013-11-26 21:35:03 Bituser123 has joined
1882 2013-11-26 21:35:28 <sipa> uou can't change the world
1883 2013-11-26 21:35:37 <CodeShark> well, not all at once :p
1884 2013-11-26 21:35:42 <sipa> people have settled on using base58 addresses as transaction destinations
1885 2013-11-26 21:35:52 mattco has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1886 2013-11-26 21:35:57 <sipa> if we want to change it, we should aim for the payment protocol or similar things
1887 2013-11-26 21:36:04 <sipa> as they bypass that ugly part entirely
1888 2013-11-26 21:36:26 <CodeShark> it's still nice to have a format that is text-editor friendly
1889 2013-11-26 21:36:40 <sipa> hex-encoded scripts are useful enough
1890 2013-11-26 21:36:53 <sipa> and much more 'decodable' than base58 templates
1891 2013-11-26 21:37:00 <CodeShark> hex-encoded scripts with proper checksums could work, I suppose (although a bit longer)
1892 2013-11-26 21:37:16 <sipa> but they won't replace transaction destinations that we currently call addresses
1893 2013-11-26 21:37:20 <TD> CodeShark: protobufs have a textual form you can parse to/from
1894 2013-11-26 21:38:09 <sipa> scripts should be black boxes for anything except the receiver
1895 2013-11-26 21:38:41 <CodeShark> if enough clients supported an alternative format (such as a hex encoded output with checksum), eventually people might abandon addresses
1896 2013-11-26 21:38:52 mynameis has joined
1897 2013-11-26 21:38:57 <sipa> i don't see the point
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1901 2013-11-26 21:39:07 <sipa> if we want to get rid of addresses, use a payment protocol
1902 2013-11-26 21:39:18 <CodeShark> the payment protocol uses the output script
1903 2013-11-26 21:39:22 <sipa> yes, i know
1904 2013-11-26 21:39:29 <CodeShark> I'm just talking about ways to encode the output script so it can be copy/pasted
1905 2013-11-26 21:39:41 <sipa> but why would anyone need to do so, except for debugging?
1906 2013-11-26 21:40:14 <CodeShark> perhaps they don't have their payment protocol compatible client installed on the specific device they're using
1907 2013-11-26 21:40:17 <sipa> i think that any idea about improving addresses for human consumption is flawed in that humans shouldn't be seeing scripts or any cryptographic material at all
1908 2013-11-26 21:40:55 <sipa> do you think it's easier to get a slightly-better-address-encoding format adopted, rather than the payment protocol adopted?
1909 2013-11-26 21:43:01 <CodeShark> the slightly-better-address-encoding format becomes a much-better-address-encoding format as soon as people start dealing in more than one type of transaction (i.e. p2pubkey hash and p2sh)
1910 2013-11-26 21:43:15 <Luke-Jr> fwiw, BetCoin is planning to roll out payment protocol as soon as it's deployed in wallet software
1911 2013-11-26 21:43:32 <Luke-Jr> (as well as off-chain gaming)
1912 2013-11-26 21:43:33 <CodeShark> if we add yet a third kind, are we going to require yet another case statement in all our front-facing code? :)
1913 2013-11-26 21:43:37 <sipa> CodeShark: p2sh already can do that
1914 2013-11-26 21:43:58 <CodeShark> sipa: but people will still be using pay-to-pubkey-hash for a good while
1915 2013-11-26 21:44:11 <shesek> p2sh already handles every possible transaction types, why would people bother paying to scripts?
1916 2013-11-26 21:44:29 <sipa> ok, yes, so we have pay-to-pubkkeyhash, pay-to-scripthash, and pay-to-url (payment protocol)
1917 2013-11-26 21:44:30 <shesek> I mean, to non-p2sh scripts
1918 2013-11-26 21:44:36 <CodeShark> in that case we should just get rid of all the op codes in the output script and just use a script hash
1919 2013-11-26 21:44:43 <sipa> there's no need to add anything more than that imho
1920 2013-11-26 21:45:00 * Bituser123 Its a bubble!
1921 2013-11-26 21:45:13 <petertodd> shesek: p2sh doesn't handle transactions that need scriptPubKeys > 520 bytes however
1922 2013-11-26 21:45:18 <wizkid057> asked this yesterday, dont think anyone responded:  shouldn't the sum of all accounts in listaccounts = 0 if there are no coins in the wallet?
1923 2013-11-26 21:45:19 <CodeShark> the "scriptPubKey" simply becomes input script hash
1924 2013-11-26 21:45:34 <CodeShark> then at least we have a coherent design again
1925 2013-11-26 21:45:36 <sipa> CodeShark: that's what p2sh is
1926 2013-11-26 21:45:44 <CodeShark> p2sh requires a few additional op codes
1927 2013-11-26 21:46:00 <petertodd> CodeShark: only for backwards compatibility
1928 2013-11-26 21:46:04 <CodeShark> if we're only going to use p2sh, might as well get rid of them and not have any op codes at all in the output script
1929 2013-11-26 21:46:13 <sipa> CodeShark: that's a hard fork
1930 2013-11-26 21:46:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: soft*
1931 2013-11-26 21:46:33 <petertodd> CodeShark: p2sh could have been implemented as "tx.nVersion=2 means scriptPubKey=H(scriptPubKey)"
1932 2013-11-26 21:46:35 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0018
1933 2013-11-26 21:47:13 <wizkid057> anyway, listunspent shows nothing, getinfo shows zero balance, but the sum of listaccounts (just the "" account, actually) is not zero
1934 2013-11-26 21:47:15 <petertodd> CodeShark: that's also a soft-fork as H(scriptPubKey) is always evaluated as true
1935 2013-11-26 21:47:39 sipa has left ()
1936 2013-11-26 21:48:32 <Luke-Jr> (in other news, I think I'm now in like 70 bitcoin-related IRC channels.. )
1937 2013-11-26 21:49:05 <shesek> heh, I'm in 8, plus 2 litecoin-related
1938 2013-11-26 21:49:33 <Luke-Jr> dunno why #darkwallet can't just chat here
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1946 2013-11-26 21:56:00 <shesek> what's up with testnet lately? my transaction didn't make it into the last 7 blocks :<
1947 2013-11-26 21:58:15 <kjj> we are testing fees, and you didn't pay enough
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1953 2013-11-26 22:01:28 <shesek> oh, I see. I was just playing with the fees I'm setting by default
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1958 2013-11-26 22:06:41 <midnightmagic> BlueMatt: That fellow you banned 952855 seconds ago wants to try his hand at helping with the leveldb bug.
1959 2013-11-26 22:06:55 <midnightmagic> *!*hax@*.shulgin.dc1.nl.tor.exit.node.qwertyoruiop.com  <-- but he can't join..
1960 2013-11-26 22:07:03 <midnightmagic> just fyi
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1982 2013-11-26 22:19:25 <danneu> seems legit
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1994 2013-11-26 22:32:31 <gavinandresen> wumpus: ping
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2006 2013-11-26 22:46:49 <qwertyoruiop> great, my HD is failing
2007 2013-11-26 22:47:04 <qwertyoruiop> it took me just 3 minutes to make my irc client join in here
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2009 2013-11-26 22:48:19 <qwertyoruiop> so, anyway, i read about this bug on OSX
2010 2013-11-26 22:48:48 <qwertyoruiop> can anyone upload a corrupted leveldb file?
2011 2013-11-26 22:48:54 <qwertyoruiop> or provide ssh access to a box with it?
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2015 2013-11-26 22:53:03 <warren> gavinandresen: sorry, you'r right, it belongs here.
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2033 2013-11-26 23:02:42 <da2ce7> hello, if anyone who uses/knows about Multibit, please join/lurk in #multibit in-addition to this channel.
2034 2013-11-26 23:04:18 alex_fun has joined
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2041 2013-11-26 23:10:20 <alex_fun> hello
2042 2013-11-26 23:10:37 <alex_fun> if coin confirmation time is under 1 min can it present some issues?
2043 2013-11-26 23:10:39 <alex_fun> I wonder
2044 2013-11-26 23:10:40 agnostic98 has joined
2045 2013-11-26 23:10:54 <alex_fun> I was looking at some coins with short confirmation time
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2048 2013-11-26 23:12:38 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: confirmation time under 1 minute is impossible, and this is #bitcoin-dev, not #altcoin-dev
2049 2013-11-26 23:13:10 <CodeShark> it's not impossible - it's just errant
2050 2013-11-26 23:13:21 <CodeShark> but it's happened to me before :p
2051 2013-11-26 23:14:48 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: it's impossible without breaking the speed of light
2052 2013-11-26 23:15:03 <Luke-Jr> unless you're doing something silly like accepting a single block deep as confirmation
2053 2013-11-26 23:15:56 <CodeShark> unless the word "confirmation" is plural and prepended with a number, I just assume 1 or more
2054 2013-11-26 23:16:36 <CodeShark> and even ten confirmations in a minute are theoretically possible, even if highly improbable :p
2055 2013-11-26 23:17:02 <CodeShark> I've seen two
2056 2013-11-26 23:17:43 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: what he's pointing out is that in that short amount of time you can't really be all that confident that there isn't a competing fork of equal height.
2057 2013-11-26 23:18:00 <gmaxwell> given observed propagation times, http://bitcoinstats.com/network/propagation/
2058 2013-11-26 23:19:16 <CodeShark> that's making a lot of assumptions - I could give you a possible, even if highly improbable scenario where they are violated
2059 2013-11-26 23:19:19 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: standard confirmation is 1 hour worth of blocks
2060 2013-11-26 23:19:47 <pigeons> but bitcoind uses the term "confirmation" per block
2061 2013-11-26 23:20:06 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2062 2013-11-26 23:20:07 <pigeons> so that meaning of the term, 1 block
2063 2013-11-26 23:20:20 <Luke-Jr> pigeons: only in the plural, and that's poor choice of terminology
2064 2013-11-26 23:20:20 rnvk has quit (Quit: Leaving... |||||||||| SIGN-UP for Coinkite with the promo https://coinkite.com/promo/btcirc)
2065 2013-11-26 23:20:47 <Luke-Jr> "confirmation" has always meant 6 blocks "subject to discretion"
2066 2013-11-26 23:21:18 <pigeons> well looks like the others discussing here mean "blocks" even if that is a poor choice of terminology
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2068 2013-11-26 23:22:04 <pigeons> but i use it that way too, since number of blocks to feel confident is subjective
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2070 2013-11-26 23:22:24 <alex_fun> so it needs 6 confirms
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2072 2013-11-26 23:22:29 <alex_fun> 6 blocks
2073 2013-11-26 23:22:34 <pigeons> but if you say thats incorrect i'll change the way i use it, just got it from looking at "confirmations:" in the client
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2081 2013-11-26 23:25:07 <alex_fun> I joined altcoin-dev and guess what I am only person there lol
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2089 2013-11-26 23:30:58 <pigeons> invite luke
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2091 2013-11-26 23:34:00 <alex_fun> luke hehe u want to join wonderful alt coins dev channel? :D
2092 2013-11-26 23:34:36 twiceaday has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2093 2013-11-26 23:34:51 <alex_fun> so even ltc is not safe unless it performs 60 min worth of configs?
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2095 2013-11-26 23:35:44 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: at least
2096 2013-11-26 23:35:46 <sipa> configs?
2097 2013-11-26 23:35:52 <alex_fun> *confirms :D
2098 2013-11-26 23:36:06 <sipa> depends on the attack model
2099 2013-11-26 23:36:09 <alex_fun> so why no one abused it yet?
2100 2013-11-26 23:36:15 <alex_fun> since ltc price is pretty good now
2101 2013-11-26 23:36:26 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: nobody cares to try?
2102 2013-11-26 23:36:32 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, off-topic
2103 2013-11-26 23:37:24 <gjs278> wouldn't want to go beyond the strict confines of this prestigious chat
2104 2013-11-26 23:37:31 <sipa> alex_fun: please don't PM me
2105 2013-11-26 23:37:34 <alex_fun> ok :)
2106 2013-11-26 23:37:42 <alex_fun> I ask my friend instead
2107 2013-11-26 23:37:50 <sipa> if you have a question, ask it where everyone can answer
2108 2013-11-26 23:37:57 <alex_fun> ok
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2110 2013-11-26 23:39:40 <alex_fun> I was thinking that when chain confirms block 6 times for someone to double spend he/she needs to rewrite 6 blocks in a way that it fits chain
2111 2013-11-26 23:39:51 <alex_fun> I am going to think abit :)
2112 2013-11-26 23:39:53 <sipa> that is correct
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2114 2013-11-26 23:40:22 <alex_fun> so how come duration of time it takes to solve each block matters?
2115 2013-11-26 23:40:34 <sipa> because if the global hashrate is constant
2116 2013-11-26 23:40:37 <CodeShark> 6 isn't sacred
2117 2013-11-26 23:40:44 <CodeShark> in fact, I almost never use 6
2118 2013-11-26 23:40:57 <sipa> then doing a block every 2.5 minutes means every block is 4 times as easy as when a block takes 10 minutes
2119 2013-11-26 23:41:01 <CodeShark> for most small transactions, 2 or 3 is more than enough even with untrusted people
2120 2013-11-26 23:41:09 <CodeShark> and with trusted people, I use 0 oftentimes
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2122 2013-11-26 23:41:50 <sipa> alex_fun: the question is whether the attack pays for his hashrate (investment in hardware, for example), or whether he pays for hashes (electricity, buying mining contracts, ...)
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2125 2013-11-26 23:44:20 <CodeShark> for any deal where I would require 6 or more, I'd probably rely more on actual signed contracts than on bitcoin confirmations for protection in the deal
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2127 2013-11-26 23:44:43 <alex_fun> CodeShark you could broadcast deal in tx field?
2128 2013-11-26 23:44:53 <alex_fun> not thats its legally binding but some evidence
2129 2013-11-26 23:44:54 <alex_fun> :)
2130 2013-11-26 23:44:54 <CodeShark> nah, never would want to do that
2131 2013-11-26 23:45:03 <CodeShark> it's totally unnecessary
2132 2013-11-26 23:45:26 <CodeShark> the deal itself can be just shared between the two parties - and a hash can be signed and timestamped
2133 2013-11-26 23:45:35 <CodeShark> without cluttering up the blockchain
2134 2013-11-26 23:45:40 <alex_fun> sipa: I presume its cheaper to rent hash if attack can be done in 1 day
2135 2013-11-26 23:45:50 <alex_fun> that to buy hardware for it
2136 2013-11-26 23:45:53 <alex_fun> *than
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2140 2013-11-26 23:50:02 <ekkis> gavinandresen: hei.  you around?
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2146 2013-11-26 23:55:44 <gmaxwell> Good, a nice and resolute post:
2147 2013-11-26 23:55:45 <gmaxwell> http://blog.dustintrammell.com/2013/11/26/i-am-not-satoshi/
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