1 2013-11-27 00:00:04 Scrat has quit (Disconnected by services)
2 2013-11-27 00:00:09 Scrat2 is now known as Scrat
3 2013-11-27 00:02:49 <ekkis> gmaxwell: no one could take that paper seriously anyway
4 2013-11-27 00:03:21 <gmaxwell> Some journalists did... they have basically infinite capacity to take crazy things seriously, it seems. :)
5 2013-11-27 00:04:05 fanquake has joined
6 2013-11-27 00:04:08 coin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
7 2013-11-27 00:04:25 <sipa> i don't think we can blame journalists for that
8 2013-11-27 00:04:39 <sipa> well, they can always do better fact checking of course
9 2013-11-27 00:05:04 <sipa> but it's not unreasonable to take a paper authored by shamir seriously, if you don't know better
10 2013-11-27 00:05:41 <cfields> "i think you are satoshi m8"
11 2013-11-27 00:06:12 <cfields> nothing like giving a well-reasoned argument, only to have someone respond with "nuh-uh".
12 2013-11-27 00:06:14 macboz has joined
13 2013-11-27 00:06:42 <gavinandresen> ekkis: no, not here.
14 2013-11-27 00:06:47 <shesek> lol, someone on HN commented: "General consensus seems to be that Ron&Shamir's publications on this topic are extraordinarily weak given how stellar a record Shamir, in particular, has. The conclusion seems obvious: It's a misdirection. Adi Shamir is Satoshi Nakamoto."
15 2013-11-27 00:06:52 <ekkis> sipa: yes but it's not difficult to know better
16 2013-11-27 00:07:14 <shesek> (followed up with "Note: No, I do not in fact believe this.")
17 2013-11-27 00:07:23 <Diablo-D3> shesek: not that shit again
18 2013-11-27 00:07:28 <Diablo-D3> I know who satoshi is
19 2013-11-27 00:07:29 <Diablo-D3> it isnt him
20 2013-11-27 00:07:37 <ekkis> gavinandresen: hei! I wanted to follow up on Scott Hanselman. I gather with this much commotion you've been busy but Scott would be a good guy to talk to. did you get his e-mail?
21 2013-11-27 00:08:13 <gavinandresen> ekkis: ah, rightâ¦. that got buried in my inbox. I'll dig it up when I have time.
22 2013-11-27 00:08:44 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
23 2013-11-27 00:08:47 LockAndCaps has joined
24 2013-11-27 00:08:52 <gavinandresen> ekkis: frankly, right now doing interviews is at the bottom of my priority list. Bitcoin has too much publicity already.
25 2013-11-27 00:09:03 <LockAndCaps> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/URI_Scheme <-- I don't understand how the hell I'm supposed to put the "amount" parameter. Those "numbers" don't make any sense to me, and anything I put in is considered malformed by the Bitcoin-qt client.
26 2013-11-27 00:09:28 <sipa> LockAndCaps: see the first line
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28 2013-11-27 00:10:03 quellhorst has joined
29 2013-11-27 00:10:38 <quellhorst> how can i get the master_public_key of my bitcoin wallet?
30 2013-11-27 00:11:14 <maaku> quellhorst: there isn't one
31 2013-11-27 00:11:27 <maaku> what are you looking for?
32 2013-11-27 00:11:38 <sipa> LockAndCaps: i replaced the page with a proper redirect
33 2013-11-27 00:11:41 <LockAndCaps> sipa: Um... so it's not a standard?
34 2013-11-27 00:11:55 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
35 2013-11-27 00:12:07 <sipa> LockAndCaps: it was a proposed standard that nobody adopted
36 2013-11-27 00:12:08 <LockAndCaps> Hmm...
37 2013-11-27 00:12:16 <LockAndCaps> No wonder -- it's damn confusing.
38 2013-11-27 00:12:22 <LockAndCaps> At least the part I was trying to get working.
39 2013-11-27 00:12:25 <LockAndCaps> AKA the amount.
40 2013-11-27 00:13:54 <edcba> ok my address book is "all" wrong
41 2013-11-27 00:14:01 B0g4r7 has joined
42 2013-11-27 00:15:16 <quellhorst> maaku: https://github.com/prusnak/addrgen/tree/master/ruby
43 2013-11-27 00:15:27 <quellhorst> i need the master public key to pre generate addresses
44 2013-11-27 00:15:42 <edcba> i have some entry with label "1AA..." (normal addr) with its associated addr "1AAaaa"
45 2013-11-27 00:15:47 todamoon has quit (Quit: todamoon)
46 2013-11-27 00:15:57 <edcba> other entries look fine
47 2013-11-27 00:16:16 <sipa> quellhorst: "of my bitcoin wallet"... what software?
48 2013-11-27 00:16:19 <danneu> quellhorst: you supply your own for that lib
49 2013-11-27 00:16:26 <edcba> also another entry with no label and with address of previous label
50 2013-11-27 00:16:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
51 2013-11-27 00:16:44 <quellhorst> i'm using bitcoind
52 2013-11-27 00:16:56 <sipa> bitcoind doesn't have deterministic address generation at all
53 2013-11-27 00:16:58 <sipa> (yet)
54 2013-11-27 00:17:11 <quellhorst> so i need to use another wallet with that lib then?
55 2013-11-27 00:17:25 <sipa> i'm not sure what you're trying to do
56 2013-11-27 00:17:34 <sipa> that library is to generate keys
57 2013-11-27 00:17:39 <quellhorst> i'm trying to make a bunch of addresses beforehand to be used on a website for payments
58 2013-11-27 00:17:39 Scrat has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
59 2013-11-27 00:17:52 <quellhorst> BitcoinAddrgen.generate_public_address(master_public_key, address_index)
60 2013-11-27 00:17:56 <quellhorst> its for generating addresses
61 2013-11-27 00:18:07 <sipa> you can use that to create addresses, and then import them into bitcoind
62 2013-11-27 00:18:13 <quellhorst> exactly
63 2013-11-27 00:18:14 <sipa> uusing importprivkey <key> 0
64 2013-11-27 00:18:20 <sipa> eh
65 2013-11-27 00:18:20 <quellhorst> so how do i get my master_public_key ?
66 2013-11-27 00:18:26 <sipa> you choose one
67 2013-11-27 00:18:27 <danneu> quellhorst: you invent one
68 2013-11-27 00:18:29 <sipa> and keep it very secret
69 2013-11-27 00:18:36 <edcba> is there an offline tool to generate some crafted transactions ?
70 2013-11-27 00:18:43 <quellhorst> ok, is there any page on making a new master public key?
71 2013-11-27 00:19:06 <edcba> alternatively you give me your master_public_key and forget it
72 2013-11-27 00:19:20 <danneu> that's actually weird. i would think you supply master-privkey
73 2013-11-27 00:19:21 <shesek> edcba, bitcoind?
74 2013-11-27 00:19:31 <quellhorst> edcba: why don't i just transfer funds to you ?
75 2013-11-27 00:19:49 <sipa> please
76 2013-11-27 00:19:49 <quellhorst> yeah, so if its a public key, it shouldn't be that unsafe
77 2013-11-27 00:19:50 <maaku> quellhorst: if you use a website to generate your key you might as well be doing that
78 2013-11-27 00:19:57 todamoon has joined
79 2013-11-27 00:20:10 <quellhorst> so, can i get the master_public_key out of an existing wallet.dat?
80 2013-11-27 00:20:16 <sipa> quellhorst: it doesn't have one
81 2013-11-27 00:20:19 <quellhorst> ok
82 2013-11-27 00:20:23 <danneu> quellhorst: https://github.com/wink/money-tree read that
83 2013-11-27 00:20:27 <sipa> quellhorst: it's something that only makes sense in the context of that tool
84 2013-11-27 00:20:36 <sipa> quellhorst: you don't have to use that tool
85 2013-11-27 00:20:52 <sipa> quellhorst: you can just increase the number of keys in your wallet beforehand to a high number, and be done with it
86 2013-11-27 00:21:18 <quellhorst> hmm, how can i do say 1000 new keys in bitcoind beforehand?
87 2013-11-27 00:21:24 <edcba> shesek: yeah maybe bitcoind should be enough
88 2013-11-27 00:21:25 <sipa> start with -keypoolsize=1000
89 2013-11-27 00:21:34 <quellhorst> and then how do i get a list of all them?
90 2013-11-27 00:21:36 <Apocalyptic> quellhorst, you increase the keypoolsize
91 2013-11-27 00:21:38 <sipa> you don't
92 2013-11-27 00:21:43 <sipa> you request one when you need one
93 2013-11-27 00:21:56 <maaku> sipa: i think he wants the bitcoind offline / not connected
94 2013-11-27 00:21:59 <quellhorst> part of security is that i won't have it online when i need a new one
95 2013-11-27 00:22:03 <quellhorst> maaku: exactly
96 2013-11-27 00:22:26 <edcba> i almost need that too :)
97 2013-11-27 00:22:28 jakov has quit (Quit: Leaving)
98 2013-11-27 00:22:42 <danneu> that's what i was working on until i started putzing with op-checksig
99 2013-11-27 00:22:50 <sipa> maaku: ok, so one way to do it is call getnewaddress a 1000 times, then copy the wallet file, encrypt it with a random password that you don't even know yourself, and copy that encrypted wallet to the server
100 2013-11-27 00:22:55 <sipa> eh, quellhorst ^
101 2013-11-27 00:23:12 <sipa> until we have bip32 + watch-only addresses that's probably the best way
102 2013-11-27 00:23:29 <danneu> is there no wallet that supports bip32 with public-key watch?
103 2013-11-27 00:23:48 <sipa> maybe, i haven't followed up
104 2013-11-27 00:23:55 <sipa> but none of the major ones
105 2013-11-27 00:24:02 <danneu> ah
106 2013-11-27 00:24:58 malafaya has joined
107 2013-11-27 00:25:01 <quellhorst> sipa: ok, so run getnewaddress 1000 times, and record each address. how do i then access each wallet's funds?
108 2013-11-27 00:25:06 <quellhorst> or do they all go to one master account?
109 2013-11-27 00:25:39 <sipa> you only have one wallet
110 2013-11-27 00:26:09 sipa has left ()
111 2013-11-27 00:26:16 <quellhorst> do the payments somehow get aggregated? or can someone externally not tell they are all in the same wallet?
112 2013-11-27 00:26:40 <quellhorst> oh, i see each address will have its own keypair with bitcoind?
113 2013-11-27 00:26:56 <danneu> that's some kludge
114 2013-11-27 00:26:59 danybit_ has joined
115 2013-11-27 00:27:26 <quellhorst> yeah, now i see the reason behind money-tree
116 2013-11-27 00:28:17 <CodeShark> the bitcoin protocol itself has no concept of accounts or wallets
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119 2013-11-27 00:28:48 <danneu> dunno if that really helps quellhorst
120 2013-11-27 00:29:23 <CodeShark> it has the concept of transactions, which consume outputs and create new outputs
121 2013-11-27 00:29:29 <danneu> quellhorst just tryin to hustle
122 2013-11-27 00:29:49 <quellhorst> danneu: this helps me some
123 2013-11-27 00:30:11 <quellhorst> but it sounds like high risk generating a new key all the time with bitcoind
124 2013-11-27 00:30:19 <CodeShark> each output can have a unique signing key if you want
125 2013-11-27 00:30:34 <quellhorst> somewhere i read i need a new backup after each new key is made
126 2013-11-27 00:30:35 <CodeShark> it's up to the wallet software to organize them into accounts
127 2013-11-27 00:30:43 <danneu> quellhorst: the bottom line is that bitcoind just doesnt yet implement the spec that things like money-tree have implemented
128 2013-11-27 00:30:47 <danneu> so atm it's a bit rough
129 2013-11-27 00:31:00 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
130 2013-11-27 00:31:08 <CodeShark> quellhorst: unfortunately, bitcoind automatically fills the keypool without prompting the user
131 2013-11-27 00:31:17 <CodeShark> it's a defect in design, if you ask me :p
132 2013-11-27 00:31:20 <Luke-Jr> â¦
133 2013-11-27 00:31:22 <Luke-Jr> it never hurts
134 2013-11-27 00:31:37 <CodeShark> it hurts a lot - because you have to remember when to make backups - and old backups expire without warning
135 2013-11-27 00:31:56 Bituser123 has quit ()
136 2013-11-27 00:31:58 Uglux has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
137 2013-11-27 00:32:06 <Luke-Jr> maybe.
138 2013-11-27 00:32:07 <danneu> expire?
139 2013-11-27 00:32:18 <Luke-Jr> I suppose better behaviour would be to fill the keypool when making a backup..
140 2013-11-27 00:32:28 <CodeShark> yes, absolutely, Luke-Jr
141 2013-11-27 00:32:43 <CodeShark> that's really the purpose of having a keypool in the first place
142 2013-11-27 00:32:46 <danneu> i would think old backups always contain a subset of your keys, not expire
143 2013-11-27 00:32:48 <CodeShark> being able to make batch backups
144 2013-11-27 00:33:14 <CodeShark> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2841
145 2013-11-27 00:33:27 haxar has joined
146 2013-11-27 00:33:44 <CodeShark> when I do a getinfo, I love knowing how much longer I've got until I need to make a new backup
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153 2013-11-27 00:35:42 <CodeShark> danneu: they expire because the automatic keypool refills create new keys which might get used before you've made a new backup
154 2013-11-27 00:35:57 funky2 has joined
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157 2013-11-27 00:36:15 <CodeShark> eventually you might end up with practically all your coins protected by keys that are not part of the old backup at all
158 2013-11-27 00:36:18 danybit_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
159 2013-11-27 00:36:33 <edcba> so account is a collection of addresses ?
160 2013-11-27 00:36:56 dany has joined
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166 2013-11-27 00:37:19 <CodeShark> edcba: almost. more accurate, an account is a collection of signing scripts
167 2013-11-27 00:37:51 <CodeShark> output scripts you give others, and input scripts you sign with keys only you have
168 2013-11-27 00:37:56 funky2 has left ()
169 2013-11-27 00:38:00 <danneu> common answers to common output scripts
170 2013-11-27 00:38:06 <CodeShark> yes
171 2013-11-27 00:38:13 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
172 2013-11-27 00:38:54 <CodeShark> signing scripts are then mapped to addresses
173 2013-11-27 00:39:01 <edcba> it seems i labeled some output address in my address book and with recent versions processing of it is borked...
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177 2013-11-27 00:39:45 <CodeShark> although my usage of "account" here does not correspond to the usage in bitcoind
178 2013-11-27 00:39:52 <edcba> damn
179 2013-11-27 00:40:06 <CodeShark> in bitcoind, the concept we've just stated is simply called a "wallet"
180 2013-11-27 00:40:23 LockAndCaps has quit (Quit: LockAndCaps)
181 2013-11-27 00:40:50 <CodeShark> so yeah, I guess in bitcoind an "account" is a collection of receiving addresses
182 2013-11-27 00:40:58 <CodeShark> although not exactly :p
183 2013-11-27 00:41:01 <CodeShark> damn
184 2013-11-27 00:41:07 <Luke-Jr> â¦
185 2013-11-27 00:41:10 <Luke-Jr> addresses are only receiving
186 2013-11-27 00:41:15 <Apocalyptic> you're confusing yourself CodeShark
187 2013-11-27 00:41:19 <CodeShark> heh
188 2013-11-27 00:41:26 <Luke-Jr> they point at an account, but they aren't part of the account
189 2013-11-27 00:41:34 <Apocalyptic> better forget about accounts imo
190 2013-11-27 00:41:53 treaki__ has joined
191 2013-11-27 00:41:55 <Luke-Jr> accounts work fine :P
192 2013-11-27 00:42:05 <Apocalyptic> they do now ? :)
193 2013-11-27 00:42:12 treaki_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
194 2013-11-27 00:42:43 <CodeShark> what happens in bitcoind if you add an address to an account and receive coins at that addressâ¦then move the address to a different accountâ¦then receive more coins at that address?
195 2013-11-27 00:42:51 patcon has joined
196 2013-11-27 00:43:27 <CodeShark> more interestingly, what happens if in the meantime the original transaction is replaced with a different one for a different amount? (say, the original transaction gets doublespent)
197 2013-11-27 00:43:50 <CodeShark> or not doublespent, but a blockchain reorg kills it
198 2013-11-27 00:44:41 <CodeShark> there's no way generally to determine what occured first: the reorg or the changing of account
199 2013-11-27 00:44:48 <edcba> ok so i have an excerpt of my wallet dump : http://pastebin.com/DCxDg9Nm
200 2013-11-27 00:45:05 <edcba> and the 18ccccc is causing some trouble it seems
201 2013-11-27 00:45:32 <danneu> Would the blockchain validate if I always queried for the most recent duplicate-txn-hash?
202 2013-11-27 00:46:27 <CodeShark> so would the new transaction's coins be part of the first account or the second?
203 2013-11-27 00:47:37 anddos has joined
204 2013-11-27 00:48:16 <CodeShark> concretely, 1) getnewaddress account1; 2) you receive a coin at that address; 3) setaccount <address> account2; 4) block chain reorg, original coin gets doublespent
205 2013-11-27 00:48:31 <CodeShark> is that coin now in account 1 or account 2?
206 2013-11-27 00:48:53 <CodeShark> or rather...
207 2013-11-27 00:49:13 <gmaxwell> IIRC it's 'stateless' e.g. the moves are as if they always were.
208 2013-11-27 00:49:16 <CodeShark> concretely, 1) getnewaddress account1; 2) you receive a coin at that address; 3) setaccount <address> account2; 4) block chain reorg, original coin gets spent to same address bit in different transactions
209 2013-11-27 00:49:27 <gmaxwell> as it doesn't keep an account balance really, it just replays the data.
210 2013-11-27 00:49:29 anddos has left ()
211 2013-11-27 00:49:50 <CodeShark> so then anything you ever received at that address would now move from account1 to account2?
212 2013-11-27 00:50:04 gingpark1 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
213 2013-11-27 00:50:15 <CodeShark> we could complicate the situation a tad by sticking a move somewhere in there as well
214 2013-11-27 00:50:16 Dickyb0b has joined
215 2013-11-27 00:50:21 <Dickyb0b> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReS6_syD_U8
216 2013-11-27 00:50:31 <Dickyb0b> you guys aware of this?
217 2013-11-27 00:51:10 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes, thats what it does.
218 2013-11-27 00:51:34 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: when you set account its as though that address were always assigned to that account.
219 2013-11-27 00:52:02 <gmaxwell> and moves are just free ledger entries that assign value, accounts can have negative value.
220 2013-11-27 00:52:14 <CodeShark> ok, so then say you do 1) getnewaddress account1; 2) you receive coins; 3) move from account1 to account2; 4) setaccount <address> account2
221 2013-11-27 00:52:30 t7 has quit (Quit: zzzzzzzzz)
222 2013-11-27 00:52:47 <gmaxwell> Dickyb0b: no, hadn't heard of it. I don't know that any bitcoin software developers are there either?
223 2013-11-27 00:53:18 <Dickyb0b> i didnt as well
224 2013-11-27 00:53:19 <CodeShark> ah, ok - so if you had moved from account1 to account3, say, then setaccount <address> account2, account1 goes negative
225 2013-11-27 00:55:04 todamoon has quit (Quit: todamoon)
226 2013-11-27 00:55:16 <CodeShark> so then an account in bitcoind is a grouping of receiving addresses into labeled sets, each set also potentially having an offset such that all offsets for all accounts add to 0
227 2013-11-27 00:55:51 <CodeShark> too complicated :p
228 2013-11-27 00:56:13 <edcba> is that normal i have some address with getreceivedbyaddress > 0 and not showing on transactions ?
229 2013-11-27 00:56:35 <edcba> or maybe it is within "payment to self"...
230 2013-11-27 00:56:41 <quellhorst> Dickyb0b: thanks for that link
231 2013-11-27 00:56:49 <CodeShark> bitcoind hides change outputs
232 2013-11-27 00:56:51 <Dickyb0b> yw
233 2013-11-27 00:57:18 <edcba> "payment to self" are completely emulated transactions ?
234 2013-11-27 00:57:30 <edcba> ie they don't show up in blockchain ?
235 2013-11-27 00:57:42 <CodeShark> moves within the wallet don't show up in block chain
236 2013-11-27 00:58:00 <CodeShark> explicit payments to self, as well as change, does show up in block chain
237 2013-11-27 00:58:07 <Apocalyptic> edcba, "payment to self" is ambigous
238 2013-11-27 00:58:20 <CodeShark> by moves I'm just talking account moves, not sendtoaddress
239 2013-11-27 00:58:27 <Apocalyptic> if it's a move it doesn't, if you send to another address in the wallet it does
240 2013-11-27 00:58:31 <CodeShark> sendtoaddress does appear in blockchain
241 2013-11-27 00:58:42 <CodeShark> even if within the same wallet
242 2013-11-27 00:59:44 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
243 2013-11-27 01:00:10 patcon has joined
244 2013-11-27 01:00:39 <CodeShark> anyhow, thanks to bitcoind graciously hiding its own change outputs, it is indeed possible for getreceivedbyaddress to return nonzero while listtransactions omits any mention of that address
245 2013-11-27 01:01:21 <edcba> ok that "payment to self" definitely show to blockchain
246 2013-11-27 01:01:23 <CodeShark> I remember about a week into starting to learn about bitcoin going mad because the block chain showed outputs I couldn't see in my client :p
247 2013-11-27 01:01:30 <edcba> still the client doesn't tell me anything
248 2013-11-27 01:01:35 <edcba> fuck that client
249 2013-11-27 01:02:23 <edcba> i wonder if those coins are somewhere in my total balance
250 2013-11-27 01:02:31 <gmaxwell> all the information is available in bitcoin-qt, just not shown in the transaction list. BC.i has a lot of things which aren't available or are misleadingly displayed.
251 2013-11-27 01:02:32 <CodeShark> I guess the thought that went into the design was "the user will never need to know the change output even exists so getreceivedbyaddress will never be called on it"
252 2013-11-27 01:02:36 <quellhorst> Dickyb0b: lol "have any of you ever been on an irc channel"
253 2013-11-27 01:02:52 <Dickyb0b> yeh i just heard that
254 2013-11-27 01:02:54 <CodeShark> and this logic quickly breaks down as soon as you start to use tools like blockchain.info or blockexplorer
255 2013-11-27 01:02:59 <Dickyb0b> its not dead lol
256 2013-11-27 01:03:08 <CodeShark> or even getrawtransaction
257 2013-11-27 01:03:27 <edcba> yeah it's not dead just "idling" :p
258 2013-11-27 01:03:31 <quellhorst> Dickyb0b: yeah, i thought "noobs" when i heard that
259 2013-11-27 01:03:37 imton_ has joined
260 2013-11-27 01:03:38 <gmaxwell> edcba: in bitcoin-qt you can find out about all the coins you can spend in excruicating detail with listunspent.
261 2013-11-27 01:03:40 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
262 2013-11-27 01:03:51 <edcba> ok i try...
263 2013-11-27 01:04:04 imton has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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266 2013-11-27 01:04:37 <Dickyb0b> do you have to use a fan for all usb stick mining?
267 2013-11-27 01:05:07 <Dickyb0b> thinking of getting 2x bi*furys at 5gh each
268 2013-11-27 01:06:12 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
269 2013-11-27 01:06:56 <quellhorst> Dickyb0b: how much are they? I saw quite a few for sale on ebay
270 2013-11-27 01:07:37 <Dickyb0b> a seller is offering me two for £575.
271 2013-11-27 01:08:13 <edcba> ok i think the problem with client is we can label addresses and use accounts
272 2013-11-27 01:08:14 agricocb has joined
273 2013-11-27 01:08:28 <ekkis> gavinandresen: yes, I agree. publicity is certainly not lacking today. ok, no worries. somewhere down the road when you have time. I can always reach out to him
274 2013-11-27 01:09:14 SwampTony has joined
275 2013-11-27 01:09:32 <Dickyb0b> ;;genrate 10000
276 2013-11-27 01:09:33 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 609482679.888, is 0.00825136682347 BTC per day and 0.000343806950978 BTC per hour.
277 2013-11-27 01:10:01 <edcba> hmm
278 2013-11-27 01:10:04 <tim`> ;;genrate 60000
279 2013-11-27 01:10:05 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 60000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 609482679.888, is 0.0495082009408 BTC per day and 0.00206284170587 BTC per hour.
280 2013-11-27 01:10:16 <edcba> how much is gpu ?
281 2013-11-27 01:10:18 <edcba> 100 ?
282 2013-11-27 01:10:29 <tim`> depends on the gpu doesnt it
283 2013-11-27 01:10:45 <tim`> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
284 2013-11-27 01:11:20 <edcba> ok
285 2013-11-27 01:11:35 <edcba> indeed quite useless to use gpu these days
286 2013-11-27 01:11:38 <Dickyb0b> i would make £30 a week at the current difficulty with 10GH
287 2013-11-27 01:12:03 mappum has joined
288 2013-11-27 01:12:34 <Dickyb0b> but the diff is going to change
289 2013-11-27 01:12:37 tsche has joined
290 2013-11-27 01:12:43 <edcba> for sure lol
291 2013-11-27 01:13:01 <tim`> almost that time :{
292 2013-11-27 01:13:30 Subo1977 has joined
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295 2013-11-27 01:14:53 <ekkis> can I ask a dumb question? the number of transactions in a block affects the cost of generating a hash. I gather that at the time of the protocol design it was deemed that 10min was enough time given the speed of computers for someone to figure out the right hash? and now the number of transactions has significantly increased, as well as the computing power dedicated to the task? so my question: wouldn't it make sense to shorten the length of the i
296 2013-11-27 01:14:53 <ekkis> nterval? that way there would be fewer transactions per block, and a shorter interval would mean a shorter time for a hacker to fork i.e. if I'm successful in calculating the hash in 1 sec (because I have such powerful hardware) then I have 9min 59sec to perhaps recompute previous blocks
297 2013-11-27 01:15:39 <ekkis> it means we could reach the 6 verification quorum faster
298 2013-11-27 01:16:16 <edcba> hashes are very fast to compute
299 2013-11-27 01:16:28 <tim`> its just a race of rates isnt it ? not sure the quantization matters that much
300 2013-11-27 01:17:06 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
301 2013-11-27 01:17:22 <ekkis> edcba: but isn't that an argument for shortening the timespan of the block?
302 2013-11-27 01:17:24 <edcba> ekkis: anyway we can't really change block rate
303 2013-11-27 01:18:20 <ekkis> I was just thinking that there must have been some forethought to the fact that the machinery used to hash would significantly increase in capacity
304 2013-11-27 01:18:33 <edcba> i think block rate has been setup so it wouldn't cause problems with network propagation
305 2013-11-27 01:18:34 <ekkis> and I'm wondering how that doesn't constitute a path for attack
306 2013-11-27 01:18:46 <edcba> if too fast many splits
307 2013-11-27 01:19:26 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
308 2013-11-27 01:20:12 <Dickyb0b> bitcoin is nearly at 900 usd
309 2013-11-27 01:20:17 <ekkis> well? to successfully forge a transaction I would have to compute the correct hash on the current block before anyone else does _and_ recompute the previous block as well? the longer the timespan the more chances I have to do it, no?
310 2013-11-27 01:20:55 <edcba> yes the longer the chain the most secure it is
311 2013-11-27 01:21:19 <edcba> satoshi just decided on some constants that's all
312 2013-11-27 01:21:26 <edcba> not much we can change easily now
313 2013-11-27 01:21:28 <ekkis> but you don't need to recompute the whole chain. only the previous block
314 2013-11-27 01:22:19 <edcba> that kind of attack depends on difficulty
315 2013-11-27 01:22:38 <ekkis> right, which depends on the timespan available to the attacker i.e. 10min
316 2013-11-27 01:22:56 <edcba> and that's why satoshi told us to wait for 6 blocks for a tx to be 'really' confirmed
317 2013-11-27 01:23:05 <ekkis> which at one hashrate means one risk and at a much higher hashrate means much higher risk
318 2013-11-27 01:23:42 <ekkis> ya. I get the reason for the 6 block recommendation
319 2013-11-27 01:24:31 quidnunc has joined
320 2013-11-27 01:24:48 <gmaxwell> edcba: uhhhh 6 is not a network parameter.
321 2013-11-27 01:24:57 <gmaxwell> And it's not some holy caved in stone thing.
322 2013-11-27 01:25:01 FabianB_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
323 2013-11-27 01:25:17 patcon has joined
324 2013-11-27 01:25:24 <gmaxwell> It's just a not crazy rule of thumb. Though for high value transactions more is likely prudent now due to hashpower consolidation.
325 2013-11-27 01:25:43 <gmaxwell> (high value, and no trust/recourseâ of course)
326 2013-11-27 01:25:53 FabianB has joined
327 2013-11-27 01:26:34 <quidnunc> Can anyone get this mtgox node.js library to work? I try to run demo.js and I get no data https://github.com/olalonde/mtgox-socket-client
328 2013-11-27 01:26:52 <ekkis> gmaxwell: higher hashpower represents higher risk of an attack, given the same timespan for a block no? so a shorter timespan would reduce the risk. do you see it that way?
329 2013-11-27 01:26:53 <Apocalyptic> this is the wrong channel for that
330 2013-11-27 01:27:18 eoss has joined
331 2013-11-27 01:27:24 <quidnunc> Apocalyptic: What is the right channel?
332 2013-11-27 01:27:33 <edcba> #mtgox ?
333 2013-11-27 01:27:39 <Dickyb0b> http://www.bitlisten.com
334 2013-11-27 01:27:40 <quidnunc> edcba: haha
335 2013-11-27 01:27:42 <mappum> quidnunc: probably #node.js
336 2013-11-27 01:28:03 <quidnunc> mappum: yeah, maybe
337 2013-11-27 01:28:30 <mappum> does there already exist an altcoin that gets miners to store data? if not, i have a proposal
338 2013-11-27 01:28:35 * Dickyb0b wonders when a nice tune is played
339 2013-11-27 01:28:44 <gmaxwell> ekkis: "shorter timespan" between blocks? No. shorter timespans between blocks mean more hashpower dillution due to chance forking.
340 2013-11-27 01:28:45 quidnunc has left ("somewhere else")
341 2013-11-27 01:29:24 <gmaxwell> (the difference between 10 and 5 minutes, say, at current network latencies is probably not a big deal howeverâ but at some point it breaks down, with sufficiently fast blocks no amount of confirmations is safe)
342 2013-11-27 01:29:42 Krellan_ has joined
343 2013-11-27 01:29:45 <ekkis> gmaxwell: and the chance for forking rises because there is greater contention between the parties for who gets there first?
344 2013-11-27 01:30:24 <ekkis> gmaxwell: hmm? that's what I want to understand better. what do you recommend I read?
345 2013-11-27 01:30:30 <gmaxwell> ekkis: right, the time between blocks need to be high enough given latencies and node speeds that contention is rare. If its not rare then a benefit is confered to hashpower consolidations and uncertanty of the longest chain is increased.
346 2013-11-27 01:30:51 thelorax123 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
347 2013-11-27 01:30:53 <edcba> i guess fork probability relates to block time/propagation
348 2013-11-27 01:31:35 <edcba> anyway i guess all that is explain in bitcoin paper
349 2013-11-27 01:31:43 <edcba> explained
350 2013-11-27 01:31:59 <gmaxwell> not in great detail but if you haven't read it yet you really should stop gabbing here and read it.
351 2013-11-27 01:32:00 thelorax123 has joined
352 2013-11-27 01:32:06 <ekkis> gmaxwell: if I receive notification of a successful hash calculation, I still have the block that I was working on and thus can verify that the transactions on the supposedly successful block match those in mine. thus I can agree or disagree, right?
353 2013-11-27 01:32:38 <ekkis> I'll re-read the whitepaper
354 2013-11-27 01:32:45 <gmaxwell> ekkis: they won't match, not completely, and it's not important that they match in any particular way.
355 2013-11-27 01:32:46 <Dickyb0b> so many transactions on bitlisten
356 2013-11-27 01:32:51 <mappum> ekkis: you don't have to be a miner to agree, any node can go through and verify
357 2013-11-27 01:32:54 <edcba> you won't accept a block with a 'wrong' transaction
358 2013-11-27 01:33:15 <gmaxwell> edcba: wrong, sure, but matching has nothing to do with correctness.
359 2013-11-27 01:33:17 one_zero has joined
360 2013-11-27 01:33:23 <edcba> yes :)
361 2013-11-27 01:33:40 <ekkis> correct means that it contains the same number of transactions for the same total value, yes?
362 2013-11-27 01:33:42 <gmaxwell> the whole purpose of mining is to reach an agreement about the ordering of transactionsâ including which txn are in the set or not.
363 2013-11-27 01:33:56 <gmaxwell> ekkis: no absolutely not.
364 2013-11-27 01:34:07 <edcba> ekkis: correct means nobody spent some money he hasn't :p
365 2013-11-27 01:34:09 <gmaxwell> Correct just means that the transaction data is consistent with the rules of the network.
366 2013-11-27 01:34:25 <gmaxwell> that all the coins spent existed, etc.
367 2013-11-27 01:34:51 <edcba> the block you were trying to mine may have a double spending not matching the one actually mined
368 2013-11-27 01:35:10 <edcba> both are 'correct'
369 2013-11-27 01:35:35 <ekkis> hmm? I see
370 2013-11-27 01:35:37 <edcba> but you can't have a block with both those transactions
371 2013-11-27 01:36:08 <edcba> block/blockchain
372 2013-11-27 01:36:21 <ekkis> all right. time for me to head home. laters guys
373 2013-11-27 01:37:52 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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375 2013-11-27 01:41:20 <edcba> geettransaction doesn't give you inputs ?
376 2013-11-27 01:42:14 ekkis has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
377 2013-11-27 01:44:33 <Dickyb0b> lol bitlisten went quite,then the whole screen came up with loads
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408 2013-11-27 02:20:41 <hydromet> hello
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410 2013-11-27 02:21:36 <hydromet> I understand there is a bounty available with regard to solving a problem with LevelDB -- Bitcoin-Qt for OS X eh?
411 2013-11-27 02:21:42 <hydromet> http://www.zdnet.com/bitcoin-developers-offer-10000-virtual-bounty-to-fix-mystery-mac-bug-7000023632/
412 2013-11-27 02:21:56 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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414 2013-11-27 02:23:15 <hydromet> Has anyone solved it yet? If not, given the pains I went through to compile Bitcoin-Qt 0.8.5 on OS X (following mostly Gavin's approach), I may be up for giving it a try to see if I can resolve it.
415 2013-11-27 02:24:05 <hydromet> any idea of how many other people on the planet have gone through the pains of compiling 0.8.5 from source for OS X?
416 2013-11-27 02:25:13 <hydromet> btw, I upgraded my Mac to OS X 10.9 (the 0.8.5 compile was initially on my Mac running OS X 10.8.5) ... if I recall correctly, I think Gavin was running his test MacBook with OS X 10.7.x aka "Lion"?
417 2013-11-27 02:26:39 robocoin_ is now known as robocoin
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427 2013-11-27 02:32:43 <warren> cfields: one report from a mac user, prior to that patch it was corrupting on every run, now it isn't.
428 2013-11-27 02:36:13 tsche has joined
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430 2013-11-27 02:38:37 <warren> cfields: did you PR the memory barrier patch? It seemed to have fixed something
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442 2013-11-27 02:51:22 <CodeShark> did cfields fix the mac corruption issue? :)
443 2013-11-27 02:52:43 tsche has joined
444 2013-11-27 02:53:37 visy has joined
445 2013-11-27 02:54:22 <Burritoh> will he get the bounty, then?
446 2013-11-27 02:54:30 <Burritoh> That's a pretty fancy bounty.
447 2013-11-27 02:54:39 farmanimal has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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449 2013-11-27 02:57:31 <CodeShark> warren: a user that had it corrupting on every run seems like a great resource for tracking the issue down :)
450 2013-11-27 02:57:50 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
451 2013-11-27 02:57:59 <warren> CodeShark: that's only one reporter, need others
452 2013-11-27 02:58:00 Luna is now known as crescentmoon
453 2013-11-27 02:58:56 <CodeShark> warren: well, hopefully we can figure out exactly *why* it was happening and not just assume it's fixed because people can no longer reproduce it :)
454 2013-11-27 02:59:50 <CodeShark> of course, the issue could have multiple causes
455 2013-11-27 03:00:43 <CodeShark> but arriving at a deductive reason for *why* it was corrupting for one particular user who could reproduce the corruption reliably seems like a breakthrough
456 2013-11-27 03:00:54 <warren> CodeShark: read his analysis? that's a pretty good reason
457 2013-11-27 03:01:01 Squidicuz has joined
458 2013-11-27 03:01:12 <warren> CodeShark: I'm pretty sure we had multiple issues though
459 2013-11-27 03:02:38 <CodeShark> where's the analysis, warren?
460 2013-11-27 03:03:58 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: on the forum, but it's pretty simple, leveldb was using an asm(memory) block as a memory barrier and clang was optimizing it out completely.
461 2013-11-27 03:04:23 <gmaxwell> There was seperate OSX specific memory barrier code already there but the order of the ifdefs made it not get used.
462 2013-11-27 03:05:01 <CodeShark> so this is a leveldb bug, then
463 2013-11-27 03:05:03 <gmaxwell> "Clang completely optimized out my assembly" is a problem I had several times with libtheora and older versions of clang.
464 2013-11-27 03:05:24 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: well, a clang bug + leveldb code not doing what was intended.
465 2013-11-27 03:05:29 <CodeShark> right
466 2013-11-27 03:05:33 twmz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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468 2013-11-27 03:06:02 <gmaxwell> but I think its somewhat unlikely that this explains all the reported corruption, since gavin hit it some on clang 3.3 64bit build.
469 2013-11-27 03:06:16 <gmaxwell> but perhaps what gavin saw was the fsync stuff.
470 2013-11-27 03:06:27 <cfields> gmaxwell: and also because releases are built with gcc :)
471 2013-11-27 03:06:43 <cfields> but it's a apples mangled version, so there's no telling what it actually does
472 2013-11-27 03:06:48 <cfields> *apple's
473 2013-11-27 03:06:53 <gmaxwell> hmm.
474 2013-11-27 03:07:00 <gmaxwell> I'd forgotten that temporarily.
475 2013-11-27 03:07:31 <cfields> asm dumps seem to show the barrier working in gcc. but for sure not with clang.
476 2013-11-27 03:07:40 <gmaxwell> In any case this is the third issue we've found that was probably causing OSX corruption sometimes for somepeople, god knowsâ it wouldn't be shocking to find more.
477 2013-11-27 03:07:43 <cfields> and when the framework barrier is added, it's rearranged even further
478 2013-11-27 03:08:14 <warren> with 0.8.5-OMG3 coblee was corrupting on every try
479 2013-11-27 03:08:37 <cfields> so, i felt pretty good about it initially, but more tests leave me more unsure
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482 2013-11-27 03:08:56 <warren> cfields: I asked the public for more test reports ... so far it's only coblee's test results
483 2013-11-27 03:09:02 <cfields> i've found 2 more potential leveldb bugs, patching them up now
484 2013-11-27 03:09:07 <warren> he wasn't able to use Bitcoin-Qt at all prior to this
485 2013-11-27 03:09:24 <cfields> also, i got my hands on a 10.8 macbook, but it won't corrupt no matter what evil things i do to it
486 2013-11-27 03:10:05 twmz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
487 2013-11-27 03:10:06 <CodeShark> strange...
488 2013-11-27 03:10:10 <cfields> well that's interesting, but i'm afraid this kind of bug is going to require lots of validation
489 2013-11-27 03:10:50 twmz has joined
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491 2013-11-27 03:12:06 <gmaxwell> warren: I'd worry in that kind of case that the problem was something else entirely and the change merely shuffled things around in memory and now it just appears to work right.
492 2013-11-27 03:12:18 <gmaxwell> Because failing every single time is crazy and unlike the behavior for other people.
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495 2013-11-27 03:15:52 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
496 2013-11-27 03:16:27 <edcba> sendmany is using unspent amount as fee ?
497 2013-11-27 03:18:24 p15_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
498 2013-11-27 03:18:24 <gmaxwell> edcba: can you try asking that again?
499 2013-11-27 03:22:03 <edcba> how the fee is determined with sendmany command ?
500 2013-11-27 03:25:36 <edcba> hmm send gui can add recipients
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503 2013-11-27 03:27:24 <edcba> hmm but i can't specify which account
504 2013-11-27 03:28:12 <edcba> why isn't that software simple...
505 2013-11-27 03:28:33 <gmaxwell> The account probably doesn't do anything that you think it does.
506 2013-11-27 03:28:34 twmz_ has joined
507 2013-11-27 03:28:38 <gmaxwell> er account feature.
508 2013-11-27 03:28:59 <edcba> i want to spend from one address
509 2013-11-27 03:29:03 <gmaxwell> edcba: fees are set by using settxfee or by the preference.
510 2013-11-27 03:29:45 <gmaxwell> edcba: you cannot do that in current versions of bitcoin-qt/d (except via using the raw transaction interface), and certantly the accounts system has nothing to do with that.
511 2013-11-27 03:29:56 <edcba> so if i use sendmany i have to do {addr1:25,add2:24.9} if i setted the fee as 0.1 ?
512 2013-11-27 03:30:36 <gmaxwell> Transactions do not have a 'from' there is no way to manually specify which coins you will use with sendmany.
513 2013-11-27 03:30:50 <gmaxwell> The account feature of the rpc is just a bookkeeping feature, primarily intended for shared wallets.
514 2013-11-27 03:30:56 twmz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
515 2013-11-27 03:31:00 <edcba> fromaccount ?
516 2013-11-27 03:31:20 <edcba> it won't use the addresses of that account ?
517 2013-11-27 03:31:23 <gmaxwell> No.
518 2013-11-27 03:31:28 <edcba> wtf
519 2013-11-27 03:31:39 <edcba> that client is totally misleading
520 2013-11-27 03:31:59 <gmaxwell> Transactions don't have a "from" in any case, you're been confused by things like blockchain.info into having weird expectations.
521 2013-11-27 03:32:17 <edcba> they have inpits
522 2013-11-27 03:32:19 <edcba> inputs
523 2013-11-27 03:32:34 <edcba> how is that different from a "from" ?
524 2013-11-27 03:32:34 <gmaxwell> The account system is _just_ local bookeeping, this is the document, expected, intended behavior. Its like keeping categories in your checkbook.
525 2013-11-27 03:33:34 <gmaxwell> edcba: it's different from a from because the "prior to" of a coin being spent may not be owned by the person authoring the transaction in question, so if you assume it's a from bad things will occasisonally happen.
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528 2013-11-27 03:34:03 <edcba> ok i see
529 2013-11-27 03:34:07 <kjj> If I were god, I'd fire up another universe at the point just before accounts were added to the client. I'm curious if telling people that accounts will never be added would take more or less time than explaining what they do and don't do
530 2013-11-27 03:34:59 <gmaxwell> kjj: they were basically useful for the first generation of crappy webwallets. ... but yea, I use them myself just to keep notes about transactions, but TBH just some regular note facilities would work just as well.
531 2013-11-27 03:35:22 <gmaxwell> perhaps in a big wallet rewrite we'll remove them.
532 2013-11-27 03:35:29 <kjj> I tried doing that. ended in a nightmare.
533 2013-11-27 03:35:42 <kjj> the keeping track thing, not the removal thing
534 2013-11-27 03:35:58 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
535 2013-11-27 03:36:13 <cfields> woohoo, i think
536 2013-11-27 03:36:24 <cfields> 2013-11-27 03:32:45 Corruption: checksum mismatch
537 2013-11-27 03:36:26 robbak has joined
538 2013-11-27 03:36:32 <gmaxwell> cfields: woot.
539 2013-11-27 03:36:38 <edcba> you won !
540 2013-11-27 03:36:52 <cfields> i forced it in code, though
541 2013-11-27 03:37:00 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
542 2013-11-27 03:37:02 <gmaxwell> oh lame.
543 2013-11-27 03:37:07 <cfields> so now i have something to work with
544 2013-11-27 03:37:36 <cfields> gmaxwell: there's a place where there's a time-gap between 2 writes that are read as a whole
545 2013-11-27 03:37:50 <cfields> so i stuck a sleep between em and kill -9'd.
546 2013-11-27 03:38:04 <gmaxwell> oh thats fantastic.
547 2013-11-27 03:38:05 twmz_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
548 2013-11-27 03:38:31 <cfields> so i'm hoping that if i glue em into a single write, there's no chance for corruption
549 2013-11-27 03:38:34 cadaver has joined
550 2013-11-27 03:38:45 <cfields> *for corruption there
551 2013-11-27 03:39:01 twmz has joined
552 2013-11-27 03:39:05 <kjj> not inside a lock? or does the mac just suck at locking?
553 2013-11-27 03:39:35 Wild0wnes has joined
554 2013-11-27 03:40:16 <cfields> kjj: current theory i'm running with is that it's a timing issue that's present everywhere, and that timing just happens to vary enough on some macs
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559 2013-11-27 03:42:38 <gmaxwell> cfields: even if you make the write a single operation ... the system can tear writes. e.g. imagine the power goes out in the middle of the write.
560 2013-11-27 03:42:51 <gmaxwell> leveldb should still be able to recover in that case, and if it can't that needs to be fixed.
561 2013-11-27 03:42:54 <edcba> depends on size usually
562 2013-11-27 03:43:02 thelorax123 has joined
563 2013-11-27 03:43:14 <gmaxwell> (e.g. it should just back out the last transaction if it can't be fully applied)
564 2013-11-27 03:43:47 <edcba> ok let's state differently my problem : how do i issue a transaction to multiple recipients from a specified address ? :)
565 2013-11-27 03:44:03 <kjj> there is no from
566 2013-11-27 03:44:20 <gmaxwell> edcba: you use another procol than bitcoin, maybe visa or paypal? something with a from. :P
567 2013-11-27 03:44:20 <kjj> but you can use sendmany or createrawtransaction
568 2013-11-27 03:44:28 <cfields> gmaxwell: i'm thinking that our use of using the leveldb checksum might be breaking that journaling
569 2013-11-27 03:45:02 <gmaxwell> edcba: if you ask a different question: how can you spend specific coins: use bitcoin-qt git which has coin control, or use createrawtransaction but be very careful with createraw.
570 2013-11-27 03:45:04 <cfields> gmaxwell: meaning: if the checksum wasn't checked, it'd roll back and continue. but checksum is checked, doesn't match, bails
571 2013-11-27 03:45:45 <cfields> i have nothing to back that up ofcourse :)
572 2013-11-27 03:45:49 <cfields> just something i'm poking at
573 2013-11-27 03:45:57 <gmaxwell> cfields: uh. I think in that case where its the last transaction and it can just be rolled back.... we really want to only log something and not fail. :P
574 2013-11-27 03:46:51 gingpark1 has joined
575 2013-11-27 03:47:46 <cfields> gmaxwell: for sure. just a hunch that there may be a bug in that path, since checsumming is defaulted off
576 2013-11-27 03:48:10 <gmaxwell> yea, not an awful guess.
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579 2013-11-27 03:48:32 <edcba> kjj: how can i use sendmany if i can only specify an account and not an address ?
580 2013-11-27 03:50:39 <kjj> I'm not sure I understand the question. you just specify the account, or the default account
581 2013-11-27 03:50:42 Eiii has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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583 2013-11-27 03:53:16 <edcba> so if i want to spend addr 1ZZZ i have to setaccount 1ZZZ bla then sendmany bla {1aaa:25,1bbb:25} ?
584 2013-11-27 03:53:35 <kjj> no, you need to stop thinking of addresses as things that you spend from
585 2013-11-27 03:53:42 <edcba> why ?
586 2013-11-27 03:53:44 <kjj> addresses are for receiving only
587 2013-11-27 03:54:00 <kjj> because that's how bitcoin works
588 2013-11-27 03:54:04 <edcba> but then when it's received i want to start from that
589 2013-11-27 03:54:22 <edcba> and not let bitcoin decide how it mess up privacy
590 2013-11-27 03:54:47 <kjj> if you want to spend a specific transaction, you need to use the raw transaction API
591 2013-11-27 03:55:39 <edcba> ok so accounts are really useless
592 2013-11-27 03:55:54 Eiii has joined
593 2013-11-27 03:55:58 <edcba> and api is quite bad
594 2013-11-27 03:56:08 <kjj> yes, and yes
595 2013-11-27 03:58:08 <gmaxwell> Accounts have their use, it's not very interesting, its not what you want them to do. What they actually do is documented, but you're insisting on them imagining that they do something they don't.
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600 2013-11-27 04:02:32 <edcba> the problem is api makes you think otherwise
601 2013-11-27 04:03:04 <jrmithdobbs> No it doesn't
602 2013-11-27 04:03:41 <jrmithdobbs> You inferred something through a misunderstanding of the overall system that was incorrect and not based on reality
603 2013-11-27 04:03:48 <andytoshi> jrmithdobbs: i think it does, accounts appear to "contain" addresses somehow
604 2013-11-27 04:03:51 thelorax123 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
605 2013-11-27 04:04:13 <jrmithdobbs> It is a convoluted metaphor though
606 2013-11-27 04:04:15 <kjj> meh. go easy on him. it isn't like he's the first to run into this. there are a hundred threads on the forum with pretty much this exact conversation
607 2013-11-27 04:04:25 <andytoshi> maybe i'm wrong, i haven't looked at the qt gui in a while..
608 2013-11-27 04:04:26 <gmaxwell> edcba: it does today, but mostly only because bc.i has ingraned in people's mind that transactions have "from"s.
609 2013-11-27 04:04:39 <gmaxwell> Back when the api was written no one at all was thinking in that manner.
610 2013-11-27 04:04:47 <andytoshi> but it should definitely describe accounts as "tracking" addresses as opposed to being a collection of them..
611 2013-11-27 04:05:06 thelorax123 has joined
612 2013-11-27 04:05:13 <gmaxwell> nothing in the reference software suggests or shows any from on a transaction, excepting the raw transaction api, which also was added much later.
613 2013-11-27 04:05:27 <jrmithdobbs> Addresses aren't supposed to be reused. With that in mind what you just said doesn't make much sense
614 2013-11-27 04:05:27 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: there are no accounts in the GUI at all. It's an rpc only feature.
615 2013-11-27 04:05:39 [7] has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
616 2013-11-27 04:05:39 <andytoshi> ah
617 2013-11-27 04:05:45 <kjj> yeah, the raw transaction API is when my personal attempt to use accounts for tracking went to shit
618 2013-11-27 04:05:50 <gmaxwell> It's observably confusing now, but it really wasn't when it was created. People's context changed.
619 2013-11-27 04:05:56 <gmaxwell> We never had questions like these in 2011.
620 2013-11-27 04:06:09 <jrmithdobbs> Ya
621 2013-11-27 04:06:31 <jrmithdobbs> It's a poor design in hindsight but it did actually make sense
622 2013-11-27 04:06:35 <gmaxwell> at some point I expect us to just remove the functionality and replace it with a more generic labels/notes stuff.
623 2013-11-27 04:06:57 <gmaxwell> And also multiple wallet support, which will actually accomplish what people trying to do "from" stuff for privacy want.
624 2013-11-27 04:07:01 <gmaxwell> (plus we have coin control now)
625 2013-11-27 04:07:07 <kjj> heh. want a patch that adds "ACCOUNTS DON'T WORK LIKE THAT" to the help RPC listing?
626 2013-11-27 04:07:14 <gmaxwell> plus the spread of coinjoin will make needing to do coincontrol for privacy less important.
627 2013-11-27 04:07:51 TheSeven has joined
628 2013-11-27 04:08:01 <BCB> not this conversation again!
629 2013-11-27 04:08:06 <edcba> sorry !
630 2013-11-27 04:08:17 <andytoshi> kjj: this might be worth doing actually..
631 2013-11-27 04:08:18 cads has joined
632 2013-11-27 04:09:02 <andytoshi> put a flag on the first use of sendfrom or something
633 2013-11-27 04:09:06 <gmaxwell> ugh.
634 2013-11-27 04:09:08 <edcba> maybe an online documentation explaining very precisely that stuff and a link on help :)
635 2013-11-27 04:09:13 <gmaxwell> no statfulness in an rpc.
636 2013-11-27 04:09:14 <andytoshi> lol
637 2013-11-27 04:09:18 <BCB> edcba: ++
638 2013-11-27 04:09:26 <andytoshi> yeah, that's a good point gmaxwell
639 2013-11-27 04:09:28 <gmaxwell> edcba: you too can write documentation. :)
640 2013-11-27 04:09:33 <kjj> so, I use "getnewaddress p2pool" now and then to rotate my p2pool addresses. then, I sometimes gather those semi-dust transactions and send to the same address
641 2013-11-27 04:09:40 <BCB> gmaxwell: not if you don't understand it
642 2013-11-27 04:09:48 <gmaxwell> BCB: he almost does.
643 2013-11-27 04:09:49 <gmaxwell> :P
644 2013-11-27 04:09:59 <kjj> oops. raw transactions come from '', and get counted twice in the p2pool account
645 2013-11-27 04:10:01 <BCB> gmaxwell: i don't :(
646 2013-11-27 04:10:28 <andytoshi> we could add an unconditional help message on listreceivedbyaddress
647 2013-11-27 04:10:39 <andytoshi> saying "try listunspent" to see the actual coins
648 2013-11-27 04:10:48 <andytoshi> that at least would get people asking the right questions
649 2013-11-27 04:10:50 <kjj> now my '' account has negative hundreds of bitcoins and it just isn't worth attempting to unscrew it
650 2013-11-27 04:10:58 <gmaxwell> kjj: move!
651 2013-11-27 04:11:08 <kjj> yeah, my dust collector does that now
652 2013-11-27 04:11:14 <ido> anyone mining bitcoin with a stratix fpga right now?
653 2013-11-27 04:11:23 <ido> stratix 4 or 5?
654 2013-11-27 04:11:35 <kjj> so it isn't getting worse over time any more. but it was easier to just stop keeping track than it was to fix
655 2013-11-27 04:12:06 <kjj> by the way, motherboard makers can die in a fire
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662 2013-11-27 04:19:57 <kjj> I can just see some engineer in Korea thinking "We only need to check the PCIEx16 slots for VGA cards. No one is ever going to want to use the fast slots for SAS cards and put their token VGA card in the x1 slot..."
663 2013-11-27 04:20:30 Burritoh has left ("Leaving")
664 2013-11-27 04:20:46 <andytoshi> lol, more like "we only need to do a boot check on the systems that dell and emachines are selling"
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686 2013-11-27 04:54:07 <abc4btc> join #mining.bitcoin.cz
687 2013-11-27 04:54:21 <abc4btc> oops : )
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711 2013-11-27 05:17:30 <helo> it would be nice during -reindex from a trusted copied ~/.bitcoin i could tell it to not bother with validation
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714 2013-11-27 05:18:02 <helo> my poor slow offline netbook is sloooow
715 2013-11-27 05:18:44 <kjj> that is one thing I miss from the pre-0.8 days
716 2013-11-27 05:20:22 ido has left ()
717 2013-11-27 05:20:37 <andytoshi> helo: i bet there's a single function in the source you could set to a no-op and compile a bitcoind-promiscuous
718 2013-11-27 05:20:49 cadaver has joined
719 2013-11-27 05:21:01 <helo> it's almost enough to get me to unlock my locked wallet on my net-connected machine
720 2013-11-27 05:21:04 <helo> but not quite
721 2013-11-27 05:22:15 <Auctus> if my blockchain is 2 years out of date, i should be able to check balances of 3 year old addresses right?
722 2013-11-27 05:22:21 <kjj> -checklevel=0
723 2013-11-27 05:22:45 <kjj> addresses don't have balances.
724 2013-11-27 05:22:57 <kjj> you can see transactions, but you won't know if they've been later redeemed or not
725 2013-11-27 05:23:43 <Auctus> how does blockchain.info determine balance? https://blockchain.info/address/198aMn6ZYAczwrE5NvNTUMyJ5qkfy4g3Hi
726 2013-11-27 05:23:49 <gmaxwell> kjj: checklevel=0 won't have that effect.
727 2013-11-27 05:24:04 <kjj> yeah, but it's the best you can do without hacking it up
728 2013-11-27 05:24:10 <gmaxwell> Auctus: it evaluates the whole blockchain and produces a large additional database of balances.
729 2013-11-27 05:24:17 <Auctus> ahh i see.
730 2013-11-27 05:24:24 <gmaxwell> kjj: It won't actually change the reindex behavior at all though.
731 2013-11-27 05:24:44 <kjj> oh, that's only for already indexed stuff
732 2013-11-27 05:24:51 <gmaxwell> it's only for the on startup test.
733 2013-11-27 05:25:03 <gmaxwell> helo: if you're copying from a trusted system why not copy the indexes too?
734 2013-11-27 05:25:53 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
735 2013-11-27 05:26:56 <helo> afaik i did... just copied ~/.bitcoin entirely
736 2013-11-27 05:27:45 arioBarzan has joined
737 2013-11-27 05:28:34 <gmaxwell> helo: and it made you reindex?
738 2013-11-27 05:28:41 <gmaxwell> What kind of systems were you copying between?
739 2013-11-27 05:29:08 <helo> x86_64 to i386
740 2013-11-27 05:29:24 <gmaxwell> ah, okay.
741 2013-11-27 05:29:31 <arioBarzan> if my node is not completely synced new blocks yet, could I sendrawtransaction a coin which is not yet in my database?
742 2013-11-27 05:29:42 <kjj> yes
743 2013-11-27 05:29:46 <gmaxwell> No.
744 2013-11-27 05:29:57 <gmaxwell> Your node won't forward it because it can't validate the inputs.
745 2013-11-27 05:30:12 <helo> it can be in your database if the tx is in your wallet.dat though, right?
746 2013-11-27 05:30:16 <gmaxwell> (the sendrawtransaction will just reject)
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748 2013-11-27 05:30:43 <helo> i guess it would be a 0-confirm input, which i guess is rejected
749 2013-11-27 05:31:26 <kjj> that's lame.
750 2013-11-27 05:31:27 <arioBarzan> gmaxwell: I get error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX rejected"} . so that is the reason?
751 2013-11-27 05:31:30 Pucilowski has joined
752 2013-11-27 05:31:37 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: yes.
753 2013-11-27 05:31:50 <gmaxwell> arioBarzan: you can just go use http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php to submit
754 2013-11-27 05:32:00 wavelet_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
755 2013-11-27 05:32:02 <arioBarzan> tnx
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761 2013-11-27 05:46:41 <Auctus> what can the bitcoin api tell me about addresses not in my wallet? Anything? Can I tell # of transactions?
762 2013-11-27 05:47:47 <gmaxwell> Auctus: things like # of transactions requires a large additional index which bitcoind doesn't keep. (and, besides, with proper use the number should be 0, 1 or 2.. not very interesting)
763 2013-11-27 05:48:32 seventy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
764 2013-11-27 05:51:50 <arioBarzan> how little of an output leads to tx considered as dust?
765 2013-11-27 05:52:27 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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767 2013-11-27 05:54:25 <wumpus> arioBarzan: less than 54 uBTC is considered dust
768 2013-11-27 05:54:50 <wumpus> 54.60 even
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770 2013-11-27 05:55:23 <Auctus> so ~5 us cents at the current exchange rate?
771 2013-11-27 05:56:14 btcbtc has joined
772 2013-11-27 05:56:36 <wumpus> yes
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776 2013-11-27 05:59:45 <wumpus> but changes to that logic are underway
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785 2013-11-27 06:02:31 <gmaxwell> wumpus: hm. I hadn't considered that changing the relay level would change that. I suppose its fine, but I forgot we'd linked it.
786 2013-11-27 06:03:34 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes it caught me unaware too how things were linked
787 2013-11-27 06:04:10 <wumpus> are linked*
788 2013-11-27 06:04:31 <gmaxwell> it was intentional, the "if the value changes, this knob will be changed, thus all the other stuff that should depend on the value"
789 2013-11-27 06:04:34 <gmaxwell> but yea, easy to forget.
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791 2013-11-27 06:07:11 <wumpus> yes it makes sense, although it also means not having to explicitly think about the other values when they change
792 2013-11-27 06:07:38 <wumpus> and that it's not visible in the commit directly, though the tests help there
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827 2013-11-27 06:46:38 <nanotube> <gmaxwell> wumpus: hm. I hadn't considered that changing the relay level would change that. I suppose its fine, but I forgot we'd linked it. <- and that's why we invented comments. :)
828 2013-11-27 06:49:26 <wumpus> comments could help, but as they are not validated by the compiler, there are even indications that they can cause bugs because people forget to update them and thus make wrong assumptions
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831 2013-11-27 07:00:02 <gmaxwell> A /*Remember other value dependant things are based on this setting:*/ wouldn't hurt.
832 2013-11-27 07:00:08 <gmaxwell> beyond that there is grep. :P
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839 2013-11-27 07:26:52 <diki> Are there any good hosts that accept Bitcoin?
840 2013-11-27 07:27:25 throughnothing has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
841 2013-11-27 07:28:09 <gmaxwell> wtf: see issue #2785
842 2013-11-27 07:28:16 <gmaxwell> I don't have the skills to fix this but I can recreate the problem.
843 2013-11-27 07:28:17 <gmaxwell> 1) Go to system preferences and click on Date/Time. Set the date to 2012. Close System preferences and hit save. Open Bitcoin-qt and get the corrupted database message. Click abort.
844 2013-11-27 07:28:20 <gmaxwell> 2) Set system preferences and click set date and time automatically. Open Bitcoin-qt and the database is fine.
845 2013-11-27 07:28:23 <gmaxwell> Can you use an atomic clock API and rely on that instead of the system clock to prevent leveldb from becoming corrupted?
846 2013-11-27 07:31:10 <wumpus> I was baffled too when I read it
847 2013-11-27 07:31:13 throughnothing has joined
848 2013-11-27 07:31:47 <wumpus> this is likely a different issue, I remember an issue from diapolo about crashes with very wrong system time
849 2013-11-27 07:32:07 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2007
850 2013-11-27 07:33:28 abadr has joined
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857 2013-11-27 07:41:33 <cfields> I can confirm as well, but...
858 2013-11-27 07:41:47 michael_alex has joined
859 2013-11-27 07:41:51 <cfields> "CheckBlock() : block timestamp too far in the future"
860 2013-11-27 07:42:45 <cfields> so, unrelated to any real corruption
861 2013-11-27 07:47:07 cadaver has joined
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864 2013-11-27 07:50:26 <wumpus> that's exactly the error in the issue I quoted cfields
865 2013-11-27 07:50:36 <wumpus> it's not mac related, happens also on windows (and linux probably)
866 2013-11-27 07:51:09 SwampTony has joined
867 2013-11-27 07:52:23 <cfields> wumpus: ah sorry, i was looking at #2785. Seems they're mixing issues in that bug
868 2013-11-27 07:52:47 <wumpus> I know, just replied there
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872 2013-11-27 07:55:59 <wumpus> would have been interesting though if all the "corruption" issues were caused by wrong system time
873 2013-11-27 07:56:28 e-dard_ has joined
874 2013-11-27 07:56:29 <cfields> i'd be pretty pissed, it distracted me all day today :)
875 2013-11-27 07:56:42 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I'm pretty sure that not all corruption were, but perhaps the corruption that goes away ones were.
876 2013-11-27 07:56:49 <wumpus> the great macos clock bug
877 2013-11-27 07:57:16 throughnothing has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
878 2013-11-27 07:57:22 <cfields> it's worth noting, though...
879 2013-11-27 07:57:33 <gmaxwell> probably we should add some check that checks to see if the latest accepted block, in the index, is too far into the future and puts up some "your clock is fucked up" message.
880 2013-11-27 07:57:51 <cfields> before it showed the corrupt db error, it said "your clock is way off, you should really fix that"
881 2013-11-27 07:57:54 <wumpus> could explain some cases, though the OP in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2785 doesn't have the Future message
882 2013-11-27 07:58:44 <cfields> gmaxwell: in my cast anyway, i got exactly that
883 2013-11-27 07:58:53 <cfields> *my case.
884 2013-11-27 07:59:02 <cfields> jeez, my fingers have given up for the day
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899 2013-11-27 08:23:58 <topi`> about MultiBit, as far as I see it's written in java - would that mean it's possible to run on big-endian archs (like my iMac G5)?
900 2013-11-27 08:24:30 <bitanarchy> does openpaperwallet have a better randomizer than bitaddress?
901 2013-11-27 08:24:33 djcoin has joined
902 2013-11-27 08:24:50 <topi`> I know some code in bitcoin-qt limits it to little-endian cpus
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916 2013-11-27 08:34:53 <topace_> anything weird going on? just started getting safe mode warnings from a few bitcoind's
917 2013-11-27 08:35:05 twiceaday has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
918 2013-11-27 08:35:49 twiceaday has joined
919 2013-11-27 08:38:29 <gmaxwell> topace_: please grep -i invalid ~/.bitcoin/debug.log and pastebin the results.
920 2013-11-27 08:40:19 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
921 2013-11-27 08:40:19 <gribble> 271740
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923 2013-11-27 08:41:14 <gmaxwell> my nodes are okay, and restart okay.
924 2013-11-27 08:41:39 michael_alex has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
925 2013-11-27 08:42:22 bazcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
926 2013-11-27 08:42:40 <_ingsoc> Is there a wishlist of things people want in bitcoind and bitcoin-qt that aren't implemented yet / no plans to do so currently?
927 2013-11-27 08:44:02 nsh has quit (Changing host)
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929 2013-11-27 08:44:31 <mappum> if anyone has some spare brainspace, it would be great if i could get some feedback on my altcoin proposal (it's not just another clone). https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=348561.0
930 2013-11-27 08:45:05 <swulf--> hly hell mappum
931 2013-11-27 08:45:09 <swulf--> I was just working on a similar document
932 2013-11-27 08:45:13 <mappum> D:;
933 2013-11-27 08:45:20 <nsh> what is the point of the "proposal" bit?
934 2013-11-27 08:45:33 <mappum> just to indicate that it isn't implemented or final yet
935 2013-11-27 08:45:41 <nsh> why don't you just make it, then demonstrate that it does cool things?
936 2013-11-27 08:46:02 <mappum> i wanted to see if people called out any big fundamental problems first
937 2013-11-27 08:46:06 <mappum> this will take a while to make
938 2013-11-27 08:46:10 <swulf--> there is a big fundamental problem
939 2013-11-27 08:46:49 <nsh> i would still recommend trying to do mathematics and even if you fail you will have learned more than you could ever do by talking about hypothetical mathematics :)
940 2013-11-27 08:47:14 <nsh> but then i know nothing
941 2013-11-27 08:47:40 <mappum> true, i will probably start working on it after i'm a little more confident i'm making the right design choices
942 2013-11-27 08:47:43 <mappum> swulf--: what'
943 2013-11-27 08:47:46 <mappum> s the problem?
944 2013-11-27 08:48:00 <swulf--> mappum: your system doesn't include any distributed proof of possession
945 2013-11-27 08:48:25 cadaver has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
946 2013-11-27 08:48:29 <swulf--> i'll be releasing my document, which is essentially the exact same project, in a few days
947 2013-11-27 08:48:42 <swulf--> i have to solve one issue first, though
948 2013-11-27 08:48:57 <mappum> it does, when a miner finds a valid block, they will have to include the chunk of data they found the hash with
949 2013-11-27 08:49:15 <topace_> gmaxwell, greppingÂ
(huge debug.logÂ
)..
950 2013-11-27 08:49:24 <swulf--> mappum: data is stored in your blockchain?
951 2013-11-27 08:49:28 <mappum> nodes can verify its the right data because they know the hash of it
952 2013-11-27 08:49:30 <mappum> no
953 2013-11-27 08:49:49 <swulf--> mappum: how do you verify that a node held onto the data after publishing the hash+block?
954 2013-11-27 08:49:58 <swulf--> you could compute the hash, then delete the data
955 2013-11-27 08:50:13 <swulf--> lemme re-read your doc in detail
956 2013-11-27 08:50:18 <mappum> you don't, they could do that if they wanted to. but then they have less hashing power
957 2013-11-27 08:50:35 <topace_> http://pastebin.com/BmXy7GmN
958 2013-11-27 08:51:23 <mappum> swulf--: what's the problem you need to solve with yours?
959 2013-11-27 08:51:24 <gmaxwell> topace_: okay my node has happily accepted those blocks
960 2013-11-27 08:51:53 <gmaxwell> topace_: can you grep -A 3 -B 3 Invalid ~/.bitcoin/debug.log (this one will run faster since its not insensitive)
961 2013-11-27 08:52:32 mapppum has joined
962 2013-11-27 08:52:39 <swulf--> mappum: OK, your document relies on miners constantly hashing the stored data chunks, but that's a problem because hashing gigs of data is time consuming.
963 2013-11-27 08:52:56 <swulf--> the other problem is validation: do all other mines have to store the data in order to verify that the hash is correct?
964 2013-11-27 08:53:35 <topace_> http://pastebin.com/y96wz0Ji
965 2013-11-27 08:54:00 <swulf--> the problem with my current white paper is that the validation is too large (~16KB per 1MB storage block, which is about 15KB larger than I need)
966 2013-11-27 08:54:11 <swulf--> err want
967 2013-11-27 08:55:47 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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972 2013-11-27 08:57:23 <mappum> swulf--: nodes don't have to store the data to verify it, the miner just includes that piece of the data in the block
973 2013-11-27 08:57:32 <mappum> so pieces will need to be small obviously
974 2013-11-27 08:58:04 <mappum> but only one proof-of-whatever has to be verified per block so it isn't too much overhead
975 2013-11-27 08:58:33 <swulf--> I'm confused - if the network is storing 1TB of data, how, after say 10000 blocks can you be sure a chunk still exists?
976 2013-11-27 08:59:31 <mappum> you can't, but the fact that miners have a higher hashrate if they keep it means at least some miners will probably have it
977 2013-11-27 09:00:31 c0rw1n has joined
978 2013-11-27 09:00:33 <mappum> there's a very small chance all miners in the world will blacklist your file
979 2013-11-27 09:01:26 <swulf--> I'll post my whitepaper soon and I'd like to get your feedback on it. We could work together to come up with something good
980 2013-11-27 09:01:46 <mappum> cool, i'm looking forward to that
981 2013-11-27 09:01:58 <mappum> i think this is an inevitable thing to be made
982 2013-11-27 09:02:11 <mappum> and the existing Datacoin is a terrible solution
983 2013-11-27 09:02:20 <topace_> gmaxwell, any idea? I'm running --reindex now
984 2013-11-27 09:02:35 <swulf--> I think so too
985 2013-11-27 09:02:46 <swulf--> I was just gonna start developing it thinking I'd have time, but it looks like others are already starting on it
986 2013-11-27 09:02:54 <swulf--> so I should just publish the specs and see what people thing.
987 2013-11-27 09:02:57 <swulf--> think*
988 2013-11-27 09:03:07 <gmaxwell> topace_: looks like you had a corrupted chainstate, the reindex will fix it. What OS and what versions of things are you running?
989 2013-11-27 09:03:36 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
990 2013-11-27 09:03:43 <topace_> linux official binaries 0.8.5
991 2013-11-27 09:04:22 <topace_> on ubuntu-server 12.04.3
992 2013-11-27 09:05:12 <mappum> swulf--: how does yours work?
993 2013-11-27 09:05:40 <swulf--> Not allowed to say just yet, but it's a very similar premise as yours but with trust-less 99.999% data storage guarantee
994 2013-11-27 09:06:05 <swulf--> and miner "power" is derived the same as bitcoin/litecoin
995 2013-11-27 09:06:35 dmzpkts has quit (Quit: leaving)
996 2013-11-27 09:06:38 gritball has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
997 2013-11-27 09:06:59 <mappum> so when do miners prove they are storing something?
998 2013-11-27 09:07:17 <swulf--> monthl
999 2013-11-27 09:07:19 <swulf--> monthly
1000 2013-11-27 09:07:53 <mappum> well where in the system do they prove it?
1001 2013-11-27 09:08:01 hmmma has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1002 2013-11-27 09:08:03 <swulf--> or rather, every block-month (roughly 10 mins * 6 blocks/hr * 24 hrs/day * 7 days/wk * 4 wks/month blocks)
1003 2013-11-27 09:08:11 <swulf--> they just "announce" it, and if they don't, they don't get paid
1004 2013-11-27 09:09:01 <mappum> so each block has a bunch of transactions that come from miners announcing their stored stuff?
1005 2013-11-27 09:09:17 <swulf--> that's part of it, yeah
1006 2013-11-27 09:09:21 <swulf--> the devils in the details though
1007 2013-11-27 09:09:30 <mappum> interesting
1008 2013-11-27 09:09:46 <swulf--> fine i'll try and wrap up the document today, haha.
1009 2013-11-27 09:09:58 <swulf--> i'll leave my problem as "open" and see if anyone has ideas.. I've been stumped for a week
1010 2013-11-27 09:10:08 <mappum> sweet
1011 2013-11-27 09:11:29 <swulf--> the problem is that miners have to prove they have data, which the current description requires something like a 16KB transaction, which is size-prohibitive when you consider all the data on the network. i believe it can be done <256 bytes, but not entirely sure. my crypto math isn't top-notch
1012 2013-11-27 09:13:10 Krellan_ has joined
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1014 2013-11-27 09:14:15 <mappum> so what's in the 16kb transaction
1015 2013-11-27 09:14:31 <swulf--> proof of possession
1016 2013-11-27 09:14:43 <mappum> i mean on a technical level
1017 2013-11-27 09:14:51 <mappum> why does the proof take so much space?
1018 2013-11-27 09:15:18 <swulf--> because normally proof of posession requires the "client" to store some metadata to verify possession
1019 2013-11-27 09:15:33 <swulf--> to do it distributedly, you have to announce some piece of the data that others can verify
1020 2013-11-27 09:16:21 <mappum> ah, i see
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1023 2013-11-27 09:19:15 <topace_> gmaxwell, is this possibly the "Random blockchain corruption bug" that usually affects mac os?
1024 2013-11-27 09:19:41 <gmaxwell> topace_: Unlikely.
1025 2013-11-27 09:19:53 <gmaxwell> mappum: your proof system is trivally gamable.
1026 2013-11-27 09:20:05 <mappum> how so?
1027 2013-11-27 09:20:18 <gmaxwell> mappum: I just keep one piece of data, instead of all of it, then I rapidly iterate the work function until I get work which would select that data.
1028 2013-11-27 09:20:31 <gmaxwell> so it allows a hashrate computation trade off.
1029 2013-11-27 09:20:32 <mappum> did you read all of it? it specifically combats that
1030 2013-11-27 09:20:46 <topace_> still reindexingÂ
gonna be a while.. at ~212000
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1034 2013-11-27 09:21:30 <gmaxwell> mappum: it still enables a tradeoff regardless of how expensive it is. Perhaps the tradeoff doesn't win, but I'm skeptical, e.g. as soon as you get someone with a workfunction asic.
1035 2013-11-27 09:22:10 <mappum> then i suppose it's beneficial to use scrypt, or maybe something more specifically suited to this
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1037 2013-11-27 09:22:57 <mappum> and as long as the tradeoff is ok for most of the miners, it should be OK
1038 2013-11-27 09:23:30 mattco has joined
1039 2013-11-27 09:23:34 <mappum> i can't imagine the tradeoff being better that way, even with ASICs though
1040 2013-11-27 09:24:04 <mappum> since that function needs to take a long time, it can be designed to be super asic unfriendly
1041 2013-11-27 09:24:08 SwampTony has joined
1042 2013-11-27 09:25:18 <gmaxwell> "Chunk sizes would need to stay small since all nodes will need a copy of the chunk data to verify the proof-of-stock"
1043 2013-11-27 09:25:30 <gmaxwell> you could easily engineer around this.
1044 2013-11-27 09:26:11 <gmaxwell> the other problem, incidentally, with your POW is that the storage is outsourceable.
1045 2013-11-27 09:26:52 <gmaxwell> e.g. you do work work and ask someone to give you the chunk result.
1046 2013-11-27 09:27:09 SwampTon_ has joined
1047 2013-11-27 09:27:55 <mappum> interesting point, i hadn't thought about that too much
1048 2013-11-27 09:28:52 <gmaxwell> mappum: amiller has been killing himself trying to come up with ways to make mining non-outsourcable non-hostable in practice.
1049 2013-11-27 09:28:53 <mappum> maybe don't have a nonce in the work hash and make the timestamp only update every minute or something
1050 2013-11-27 09:29:00 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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1052 2013-11-27 09:29:25 <gmaxwell> WRT your goals my recommendation is that your "PoW" be a proof of disk throughput instead. Then the lookup can't be outsourced without outsourcing the expensive mining setup.
1053 2013-11-27 09:29:41 <gmaxwell> (and amillier has some proposals to make cloud mining insecure)
1054 2013-11-27 09:31:13 <nsh> can you prove decentralization itself directly somehow?
1055 2013-11-27 09:31:21 <nsh> (systemically)
1056 2013-11-27 09:31:46 <mappum> but then it would be hard to verify miners are storing the data without everyone keeping a lot of data
1057 2013-11-27 09:32:33 <nsh> with a crypographic transport layer you could probably demonstrate proportionality of computation to network traversal
1058 2013-11-27 09:32:43 <nsh> which would weakly indicate decentralization
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1061 2013-11-27 09:33:21 <gmaxwell> mappum: thats not so.
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1063 2013-11-27 09:33:51 <mappum> i suppose there is some crypto that does this that i don't know about
1064 2013-11-27 09:34:07 <mappum> how do you verify storage of data without people needing copies of it?
1065 2013-11-27 09:34:07 <swulf--> There is! I reference it in my design
1066 2013-11-27 09:34:22 <gmaxwell> by using a hash tree.
1067 2013-11-27 09:34:27 <gmaxwell> same way SPV mode works.
1068 2013-11-27 09:34:30 <mappum> i thought you said that was the problem you need to solve
1069 2013-11-27 09:34:43 <swulf--> a hash tree isn't complete, you can't just gaurantee a player hasn't stored the hash tree and thrown away the data
1070 2013-11-27 09:35:01 <swulf--> mappum: I have that problem solved. I just need to reduce the bandwidth requiremen t
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1074 2013-11-27 09:35:30 <gmaxwell> swulf--: uh... sure you can. it's trivial.
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1076 2013-11-27 09:35:53 <gmaxwell> swulf--: you have the player disclose the actual stored data chunks, and use the hash tree to prove that its the right data.
1077 2013-11-27 09:36:02 <swulf--> I'm curious - how does A have B store data, and B prove to C he has it, without C knowing anything?
1078 2013-11-27 09:36:21 <swulf--> gmax: sure, but that only works once (not everyone verifying will want to store that data)
1079 2013-11-27 09:36:59 <swulf--> I have a solution that works, but it requires desclosing a small piece of the data (so all computed math can be proven back to a single piece)
1080 2013-11-27 09:37:20 <swulf--> basically it's a hash tree (sums of hashes) with a "root" data block being provided
1081 2013-11-27 09:37:33 <swulf--> I don't fully understand the math, actually
1082 2013-11-27 09:37:37 <swulf--> but it generally makes sense
1083 2013-11-27 09:38:26 <mappum> if everyone only has that small piece, doesn't that mean the miner has the same piece and can generate the proof from it?
1084 2013-11-27 09:38:55 <swulf--> anyone should be able to validate the proof, yeah
1085 2013-11-27 09:39:14 <swulf--> you can't ask everyone to store that small piece though (and most people will try to lie about storing it)
1086 2013-11-27 09:39:26 <swulf--> you have to assume nobody is honest about storing your data, they just want your money
1087 2013-11-27 09:40:22 <swulf--> I read somewhere that SHA-1 takes 24 seconds on 1MB of data on a modern 3.2ghz cpu
1088 2013-11-27 09:40:38 <mappum> i don't think so...
1089 2013-11-27 09:40:43 <swulf--> I think it'd be too difficult to build a PoW system that uses the data itself as part of the PoW
1090 2013-11-27 09:41:20 <gmaxwell> swulf--: I assume you meant 1GB of data?
1091 2013-11-27 09:41:32 <gmaxwell> even that sounds slow.
1092 2013-11-27 09:41:34 <swulf--> gmax: yeah, sorry.
1093 2013-11-27 09:41:41 <mappum> http://www.cryptopp.com/benchmarks.html
1094 2013-11-27 09:41:48 <mappum> 153 MiB / s
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1098 2013-11-27 09:42:55 <swulf--> still, wouldn't 6 sec/hash be slow when you're trying to find a nonce for a block?
1099 2013-11-27 09:43:21 <mappum> so it would still work in my system as long as the time to compute the workhash is > than time to compute one file hash
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1101 2013-11-27 09:43:37 <mappum> no, the target can be adjusted to make it easy enough
1102 2013-11-27 09:44:12 <mappum> and i think pieces would be a lot smaller in my case, so more like 153 h/s
1103 2013-11-27 09:44:28 <swulf--> how much smaller?
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1105 2013-11-27 09:44:39 <gmaxwell> swulf--: I don't see why you're saying this is hard. Your POW function is H(blockheader) = tree_index and you check H(blockheader||H(lookup(tree_index))<target. and if its below you transmit the tree proof for the data at tree_index.
1106 2013-11-27 09:44:55 <gmaxwell> Its infeasable to outsource the storage because its in the inner loop for your PoW search.
1107 2013-11-27 09:45:40 <swulf--> gmax: you referring to distributed proof of data possession?
1108 2013-11-27 09:46:21 <stonecoldpat> mappum: have you seen https://www.spacemonkey.com/ ?
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1110 2013-11-27 09:46:43 <gmaxwell> swulf--: referring to where?
1111 2013-11-27 09:46:48 <swulf--> gmaxwell: OK, that's fair enough. 7 months later, how does one verify the miner *still* has the data?
1112 2013-11-27 09:47:07 <stonecoldpat> mappum: I don't know about the crypto-detail underneath the hood, but its a similar idea of peer to peer storage that got funding with google ventures
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1114 2013-11-27 09:47:24 <gmaxwell> swulf--: you don't. He needs to have it to mine however. When he stops mining, he doesn't need to have the data anymore.
1115 2013-11-27 09:48:00 <mappum> stonecoldpat: interesting
1116 2013-11-27 09:48:04 <swulf--> hmm
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1118 2013-11-27 09:49:15 <gmaxwell> you can make the time/memory tradeoff harder by generating several indexes per query, though it does make your proofs bigger.
1119 2013-11-27 09:49:20 <stonecoldpat> I don't know if a PoW is worthwhile for data storage - simply because its a way to validate / proof ownership, but if its all encrypted anyway then the only person who can open it is yourself
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1121 2013-11-27 09:50:10 <stonecoldpat> instead, blocks could just be confirmations to say its been stored (i haven't read proposal yet, im just brainstorming)
1122 2013-11-27 09:50:13 <gmaxwell> e.g. H(header||1) H(header||2) H(header||3) H(header||4) are seperate lookups. and then someone who's only kept a portion of the data in order to grind on the top level hash to match the portion they kept will be unlucky much more often.
1123 2013-11-27 09:50:13 <swulf--> This --> "Chunk sizes would need to stay small since all nodes will need a copy of the chunk data to verify the proof-of-stock."
1124 2013-11-27 09:50:24 <gmaxwell> swulf--: they don't need the data.
1125 2013-11-27 09:50:37 <gmaxwell> the only thing a peer needs to know is a hash root of a hash tree over the data.
1126 2013-11-27 09:51:02 <gmaxwell> You then disclose the data in your proofs to prove you know the data, and they compare the hash root to know you have the right data.
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1128 2013-11-27 09:51:38 <swulf--> Hmmm
1129 2013-11-27 09:52:03 <mappum> that is what i was suggesting
1130 2013-11-27 09:52:47 <gmaxwell> mappum: Ah. you failed to describe any of that.
1131 2013-11-27 09:53:51 <mappum> i guess i didn't say what kind of data structure the hashes are in, but in my post i said that the hashes of the pieces of data are in the blockchain
1132 2013-11-27 09:54:25 <gmaxwell> mappum: okalydokaly.
1133 2013-11-27 09:54:38 <stonecoldpat> mappum: would you need to re-confirm that you have the data? (like give an image of what you have stored) from time to time?
1134 2013-11-27 09:54:44 <gmaxwell> in any case, if its setup to be a throuhput proof I assume it could work.
1135 2013-11-27 09:55:20 <swulf--> so how does one distribute payment fairly in this system? What's the likelihood of a small device being paid for using its storage?
1136 2013-11-27 09:55:38 <mappum> well pooled mining would still work
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1138 2013-11-27 09:55:58 <swulf--> Is it going to be a race to get the fastest machines, where in this case higher HD throughput is important?
1139 2013-11-27 09:56:04 <gmaxwell> mappum: in proof of throughput the 'hashers' have to have the data. You could still pool but the data would be distributed.
1140 2013-11-27 09:56:23 <mappum> stonecoldpat: no, only if that data is in a winning hash for a block you found
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1142 2013-11-27 09:59:13 <stonecoldpat> mappum: also - if people are declaring that they are storing your data, it could work a bit like bitcoin atm where your client stores all the known addresses
1143 2013-11-27 09:59:43 <stonecoldpat> mappum: so if I know node 5 has a bit of my data, i store the hash and his address?
1144 2013-11-27 09:59:48 <mappum> you are suggesting proving throughput over proving you have the data, but what if you could prevent outsourcing the storage?
1145 2013-11-27 10:00:10 <stonecoldpat> mappum: I say this - because you say it would be inefficient to find who has your data, but it would be a continous processing anyway (since you have to validate buckets?)
1146 2013-11-27 10:01:00 <gmaxwell> omg sipa is not in irc.
1147 2013-11-27 10:01:28 <mappum> stonecoldpat: well i was saying it would be efficient as long as you use a DHT
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1149 2013-11-27 10:01:41 <mappum> but yeah, that would probably optimize things a bit
1150 2013-11-27 10:02:04 <stonecoldpat> mappum: I mean it would be efficient anyway without a DHT - as you assume they always have it running (and are continously validating buckets - finding out where their data could be stored)
1151 2013-11-27 10:02:17 <stonecoldpat> mappum: and upon first use would require a bit of a rescan - thats probably the most inefficient bit
1152 2013-11-27 10:02:35 <stonecoldpat> mappum: but why not just broadcast your hash table once in a while? and then when you do the rescan you can just pick it up
1153 2013-11-27 10:02:43 <mappum> well the thing is right away you don't know who has your data, you have to search for someone who does
1154 2013-11-27 10:02:49 <stonecoldpat> mappum: because if someone knows your hash table - it doesnt make a difference anyway
1155 2013-11-27 10:03:21 <mappum> well everyone already does know it anyway, it's like a bitcoin balance
1156 2013-11-27 10:03:27 <stonecoldpat> exactly
1157 2013-11-27 10:03:44 <stonecoldpat> so you can store your hash table once a day or week - and when you rescan just look up the latest version
1158 2013-11-27 10:03:44 <gmaxwell> this conversation should really be in #bitcoin-wizards or someplace else, btw.
1159 2013-11-27 10:03:52 <stonecoldpat> ah sorry
1160 2013-11-27 10:03:58 <mappum> word
1161 2013-11-27 10:04:05 <gmaxwell> This channel is for production discussion about the operation and development of the bitcoin network and bitcoin node software. :)
1162 2013-11-27 10:04:16 <gmaxwell> (I actually thought this was in wizards already, sorry for perpetuating it!) :)
1163 2013-11-27 10:06:23 <mappum> good to know, i was searching for altcoin channels and couldn't find anything
1164 2013-11-27 10:10:29 <gmaxwell> well, bitcoin-wizards is not an altcoin channel, but it's a place where various technical things that aren't applicable to bitcoin today are discussed.
1165 2013-11-27 10:10:47 <gmaxwell> We've talked about proof of storate / proof of throughput things there before, for an example.
1166 2013-11-27 10:10:57 <gmaxwell> If you want to talk about actual altcoins I don't know what channel to suggest.
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1168 2013-11-27 10:11:24 <gjs278> wouldn't want to go beyond the strict confines of this prestigious chat
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1201 2013-11-27 10:53:08 <Goonie> In case you didn't notice, there is a new beta of Bitcoin Wallet for Android up for testing at http://code.google.com/p/bitcoin-wallet/downloads/list. It includes mBTC support!
1202 2013-11-27 10:53:34 <Goonie> (sorry, remove the dot from the link)
1203 2013-11-27 10:56:25 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3305#issuecomment-29375365 Sane?
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1217 2013-11-27 11:19:27 <cocaine> Bitcoin has a serious issue. due to its open source nature, it can be copied into a slightly modified clone.
1218 2013-11-27 11:19:41 <cocaine> how can that survive being a store of value, if there are a bunch of very similar clones?
1219 2013-11-27 11:19:54 <cocaine> You don't see a slightly modified gold every other month coming on the market.
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1221 2013-11-27 11:21:01 <Luke-Jr> cocaine: scamcoins just get ignored
1222 2013-11-27 11:21:39 Guyver2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1223 2013-11-27 11:24:11 <gjs278> cocaine: there are like hundreds of coins, people only use about 6 of them for real
1224 2013-11-27 11:24:35 <gjs278> it's not a big issue, most monetary gains are through bitcoin so most people are going to use those just because it will make them more money
1225 2013-11-27 11:25:59 <cocaine> Luke-Jr: they are not necessarily scam coins, and people arent ignoring
1226 2013-11-27 11:26:13 <cocaine> LTC is basically a 100% clone with no real features.
1227 2013-11-27 11:26:20 <cocaine> look at its movements lately.
1228 2013-11-27 11:26:43 <cocaine> but, if something becomes big enough vs btc, investors/savers will lose confidence
1229 2013-11-27 11:26:51 <gjs278> faster transactions, scrypt so no asics right now
1230 2013-11-27 11:26:56 <cocaine> do i invest in coin#1 ? coin#2? coin#5?
1231 2013-11-27 11:27:06 <gjs278> I doubt it, most ltc are bought through btc in the first place
1232 2013-11-27 11:27:27 <cocaine> gjs278: faster confirmations are a bit useless
1233 2013-11-27 11:27:37 <gjs278> not really, it took 30 minutes to get my 1 coin into btc-e
1234 2013-11-27 11:27:46 <cocaine> so your transaction is now secured by 2 mins of hashing power
1235 2013-11-27 11:27:49 <cocaine> vs 20
1236 2013-11-27 11:28:04 <cocaine> as for scrypt - only matter of time for asics
1237 2013-11-27 11:28:15 <Luke-Jr> cocaine: ok, *intelligent* people ignore them
1238 2013-11-27 11:28:47 <cocaine> Luke-Jr: bitcoin is hard to understand, a lot of intelligent people dont have background/time to undestand
1239 2013-11-27 11:29:09 <Luke-Jr> cocaine: investors hire people with time
1240 2013-11-27 11:29:20 <tommygunner> LTC is just moving because BTC is moving so much
1241 2013-11-27 11:29:29 <tommygunner> without BTC, LTC is nothing
1242 2013-11-27 11:29:48 <gjs278> well no, LTC had a huge triple with no btc gains
1243 2013-11-27 11:30:01 <gjs278> like btc went up $100 but ltc went up 400%
1244 2013-11-27 11:30:15 <tommygunner> dont restrict yourself to a few hours
1245 2013-11-27 11:30:19 <gjs278> they were pegged against each other pretty well until just today
1246 2013-11-27 11:30:25 <Luke-Jr> LTC's value is almost entirely from deceit though
1247 2013-11-27 11:30:31 <Luke-Jr> people lying about its "features"
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1252 2013-11-27 11:32:21 <cocaine> gjs278: exactly
1253 2013-11-27 11:32:38 <cocaine> Luke-Jr: sure, but what if it succeeds?
1254 2013-11-27 11:32:57 <gjs278> it's not succeeding, people are just putting money into it because it's value is rising so fast
1255 2013-11-27 11:32:57 <cocaine> onen altcoin superceeding the main coin will severely damage reputation
1256 2013-11-27 11:33:01 <cocaine> and cause major loss of confidence
1257 2013-11-27 11:33:01 <gjs278> its
1258 2013-11-27 11:33:17 <cocaine> gjs278: same can be said about ltc
1259 2013-11-27 11:33:33 <cocaine> the protocol needs to be modified somehow, so that is unprofitable to start new altcoins
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1261 2013-11-27 11:33:40 <cocaine> i dont know how to solve this fundamental problem.
1262 2013-11-27 11:33:48 <gjs278> lol it already is, nobody really cares about most of them until an exchange uses them
1263 2013-11-27 11:33:52 <cocaine> but it must be limited, otherwise bitcoin can never become gold.
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1265 2013-11-27 11:34:10 <cocaine> gjs278: exactly, and thats a big problem.
1266 2013-11-27 11:34:21 <cocaine> exchanges are financially motivated to pump and dump coins
1267 2013-11-27 11:34:31 <cocaine> this does not instill confidence.
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1270 2013-11-27 11:35:07 <cocaine> in order for cryptocommodities become large enough to supplant fiat, we need institutional money
1271 2013-11-27 11:35:12 <cocaine> that requires confidene.
1272 2013-11-27 11:35:15 <cocaine> ce.
1273 2013-11-27 11:35:18 <gjs278> well that and providing altcoins gives people a viable way to get money into the exchange to purchase bitcoins
1274 2013-11-27 11:36:17 <cocaine> gjs278: altcoin overthrows the mainline coin - and nobody will take them seriously for a long time
1275 2013-11-27 11:36:26 <cocaine> its not a math/logistics/code problem.
1276 2013-11-27 11:36:33 <cocaine> this is entirely rational.
1277 2013-11-27 11:36:44 <gjs278> lol
1278 2013-11-27 11:36:51 <cocaine> but outside the mechanical part of actual transfers.
1279 2013-11-27 11:37:04 <cocaine> you cannot have a store value that gets competition in exactly the same form every year.
1280 2013-11-27 11:37:12 <cocaine> we'd have 5000 platinum group metals by now.
1281 2013-11-27 11:37:57 <cocaine> how can this be solved?
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1286 2013-11-27 11:40:02 <Luke-Jr> cocaine: I don't think there's a worth-worrying-about risk of that happening.
1287 2013-11-27 11:40:22 <cocaine> Luke-Jr: i think litecoin can be pumped to bitcoin levels.
1288 2013-11-27 11:40:47 <Luke-Jr> cocaine: bitcoin has some real value, but litecoin doesn't. I don't see the latter being able to overtake the former.
1289 2013-11-27 11:40:48 <cocaine> its not a insignificant risk, but outcomes will be severe.
1290 2013-11-27 11:41:01 <cocaine> Luke-Jr: what value btc has that ltc doesnt?
1291 2013-11-27 11:41:07 <cocaine> its just a different hash.
1292 2013-11-27 11:41:16 <cocaine> with some slightly tweak protocol parameter
1293 2013-11-27 11:41:17 <gjs278> actually has developers to fix it when it breaks
1294 2013-11-27 11:41:20 <Luke-Jr> cocaine: Bitcoin is majorly innovative, doing things that were never done prior.
1295 2013-11-27 11:41:31 <cocaine> gjs278: good point, noted.
1296 2013-11-27 11:41:36 <Luke-Jr> cocaine: *Litecoin* is just a different (known flawed) hash
1297 2013-11-27 11:41:38 <cocaine> developer mind share is very important.
1298 2013-11-27 11:41:47 <cocaine> scrypt has known flaws?
1299 2013-11-27 11:41:50 <Luke-Jr> yes
1300 2013-11-27 11:42:00 <cocaine> elaborate pls.
1301 2013-11-27 11:42:13 <Luke-Jr> it uses as much memory to verify as it does to find; so, it's not a proof-of-work algorithm
1302 2013-11-27 11:42:21 <Luke-Jr> it's also resistent to commodity hardware
1303 2013-11-27 11:42:41 <Luke-Jr> so can only be remotely effectively mined with ASICs
1304 2013-11-27 11:43:01 <warren> cocaine: Litecoin's hash failed its original goals, although the current situation has shown that the initial goal in 2011 hasn't made it any less secure, just different.
1305 2013-11-27 11:43:26 <Luke-Jr> warren: no, it's definitely less secure..
1306 2013-11-27 11:43:30 <cocaine> warren: but its now big enough to fool people.
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1308 2013-11-27 11:43:34 <Luke-Jr> at the very least, you have a higher risk of blocks being stale
1309 2013-11-27 11:43:38 <cocaine> the problem isnt about original goals
1310 2013-11-27 11:43:41 <Luke-Jr> due to the slightly higher verification times
1311 2013-11-27 11:43:46 <cocaine> its about people seeing 20$ coin with 0.5 bil market cap
1312 2013-11-27 11:43:50 <cocaine> and 80% gains
1313 2013-11-27 11:43:57 <warren> cocaine: Luke-Jr has arguments that are equally applicable against Bitcoin but fails to realize it. It's best to just ignore him.
1314 2013-11-27 11:44:02 <cocaine> "zomg its early bitcoin buy buy buy
1315 2013-11-27 11:44:02 <Luke-Jr> cocaine: scams do that all the time
1316 2013-11-27 11:44:16 <Luke-Jr> warren: liar -.-
1317 2013-11-27 11:44:21 <warren> cocaine: and I suggest against pumping anything, it's stupid and possibly illegal.
1318 2013-11-27 11:44:29 <cocaine> im not pumping nothing.
1319 2013-11-27 11:44:36 <warren> Luke-Jr: oddly enough we agree on nearly every issue except one
1320 2013-11-27 11:44:38 <cocaine> im seriously concerned about loss of confidence.
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1322 2013-11-27 11:44:50 <Luke-Jr> warren: your decision to ignore them is why you refuse to understand them
1323 2013-11-27 11:44:52 <cocaine> a successful altcoin will dent it.
1324 2013-11-27 11:45:05 <warren> Luke-Jr: we agree on that statement too.
1325 2013-11-27 11:45:20 <Luke-Jr> refusal to understand them doesn't make them any less valid
1326 2013-11-27 11:45:29 * warren nods.
1327 2013-11-27 11:46:01 <Luke-Jr> cocaine: how about this point: bitcoin as a successful cryptocurrency will dent other traditional currencies
1328 2013-11-27 11:46:09 <cocaine> warren: what prevents an altcoin becoming bigger than mainline coin?
1329 2013-11-27 11:46:15 <cocaine> Luke-Jr: we are very far from there yet
1330 2013-11-27 11:46:31 <Luke-Jr> cocaine: we're much closer than we really should be, considering how immature the technology is
1331 2013-11-27 11:46:36 <warren> cocaine: mainly the network effect
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1334 2013-11-27 11:49:53 <tgs3> Luke-Jr: stale??
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1337 2013-11-27 11:50:48 <cocaine> warren: what if thats breached? new exchanges pop up accepting coins
1338 2013-11-27 11:51:14 <Luke-Jr> tgs3: blocks which collide for the same height; one is main chain, the other is stale.
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1340 2013-11-27 11:51:59 <warren> cocaine: exchanges accepting coins makes those coins valuable?
1341 2013-11-27 11:54:05 <warren> cocaine: if we're talking 99.99% of alt coins, most of them will fail or forever be a terribly speculative and unstable way to mine and exchange for bitcoins largely because their developers don't know what they are doing.
1342 2013-11-27 11:54:19 <t7> people buying coins make coins valuable
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1344 2013-11-27 11:54:33 <warren> t7: circular logic is circular
1345 2013-11-27 11:54:39 <Luke-Jr> t7: not long-term
1346 2013-11-27 11:54:49 <warren> Luke-Jr: see, we agree on nearly everything.
1347 2013-11-27 11:54:55 <warren> well, not the catholic thing
1348 2013-11-27 11:55:01 <Luke-Jr> â¦
1349 2013-11-27 11:55:09 <cocaine> warren: yes, exchanges accepting altcoins make bitcoin vulnerable
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1351 2013-11-27 11:55:33 <cocaine> as fo devs dont know what they are doing
1352 2013-11-27 11:55:45 <cocaine> isnt litecoin being developed by some of the bitcoin people?
1353 2013-11-27 11:56:22 <cocaine> competition isnt good when it comes to standards, there can only be one.
1354 2013-11-27 11:57:09 <warren> cocaine: I said 99.99% of alt coins are incompetent
1355 2013-11-27 11:57:24 <cocaine> ok so litecoin must be the rounding error, ok
1356 2013-11-27 11:57:37 <cocaine> at any rate, i am positive it will take just one altcoin.
1357 2013-11-27 11:57:48 <warren> to what end?
1358 2013-11-27 11:57:51 <cocaine> its the same if silver would cost one day as gold
1359 2013-11-27 11:57:56 <cocaine> that would turn markets upside down
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1374 2013-11-27 12:07:19 <cocaine> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.0243v2.pdf
1375 2013-11-27 12:07:27 <cocaine> Majority is not Enough:
1376 2013-11-27 12:07:27 <cocaine> Bitcoin Mining is Vulnerable
1377 2013-11-27 12:07:27 <cocaine> Ittay Eyal and Emin Gun Sirer
1378 2013-11-27 12:07:28 <cocaine> Department of Computer Science, Cornell University
1379 2013-11-27 12:07:38 <cocaine> how valid is this paper?
1380 2013-11-27 12:09:52 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1381 2013-11-27 12:10:13 <kjj> still up in the air
1382 2013-11-27 12:10:56 <kjj> I say not at all because the network is not a state machine with regular transitions.
1383 2013-11-27 12:10:56 Guyver2 has joined
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1385 2013-11-27 12:11:20 <gmaxwell> cocaine: it's up in the air if it really matters at all, I think it's pretty conclusive that it doesn't live up to its hype.
1386 2013-11-27 12:11:41 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1387 2013-11-27 12:11:52 <cocaine> gmaxwell: that's good.
1388 2013-11-27 12:12:06 <cocaine> at least its recieving scrutiny.
1389 2013-11-27 12:12:55 <kjj> dude. do you sleep at all?
1390 2013-11-27 12:13:12 <gmaxwell> my sleeping is all screwed up lately.
1391 2013-11-27 12:13:21 <warren> I feel it.
1392 2013-11-27 12:13:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I just fixed mine XD
1393 2013-11-27 12:14:23 drayah has joined
1394 2013-11-27 12:15:11 Tom_Soft has joined
1395 2013-11-27 12:16:51 Emcy has joined
1396 2013-11-27 12:17:04 agnostic98 has joined
1397 2013-11-27 12:17:13 <cocaine> gmaxwell: is there any way to strongly discourage forking in the protocol?
1398 2013-11-27 12:17:19 <cocaine> to prevent altcoins from mushrooming
1399 2013-11-27 12:17:40 <kjj> altcoins don't generally come from forking
1400 2013-11-27 12:17:48 <cocaine> kjj: you know what i mean.
1401 2013-11-27 12:17:53 <kjj> and by generally, I mean never so far
1402 2013-11-27 12:18:03 <cocaine> ltc is basically a one to one fork
1403 2013-11-27 12:18:08 <cocaine> with very minor changes
1404 2013-11-27 12:18:23 <gjs278> you have two fork terms
1405 2013-11-27 12:18:27 <gjs278> one fork means a blockchain fork
1406 2013-11-27 12:18:31 <gjs278> the other means a software fork
1407 2013-11-27 12:18:38 <cocaine> cloned software.
1408 2013-11-27 12:18:54 <cocaine> it has to be discouraged somehow, otherwise the markets will fail.
1409 2013-11-27 12:18:56 <kjj> and ltc is one of the two examples of halfway decent alts
1410 2013-11-27 12:19:03 <gmaxwell> cocaine: seems to be doing okay so far.
1411 2013-11-27 12:19:08 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1412 2013-11-27 12:19:09 <cocaine> kjj: and thats why its so dangerous.
1413 2013-11-27 12:19:11 <cocaine> gmaxwell: ?
1414 2013-11-27 12:19:14 <kjj> people will eventually figure out that most of the scam coins don't add anything
1415 2013-11-27 12:19:35 <gmaxwell> cocaine: bitcoin has been copied much, and its got a market cap of billions now. It doesn't seem to be harming it.
1416 2013-11-27 12:19:39 <cocaine> kjj: you only need 2-3 viable, honest coins competing.
1417 2013-11-27 12:19:47 <cocaine> gmaxwell: bitcoin has a lot of lead, due to being the first.
1418 2013-11-27 12:19:57 <gmaxwell> Then again, peercoin has a restrictive software license that prevents modifications, and no one seems to notice or care.
1419 2013-11-27 12:20:06 <cocaine> that will be eroded with time, unless its catapulted way wya higher and gets institutional adoption
1420 2013-11-27 12:21:04 <kjj> none of the scams offer an economic advantage over bitcoin. most of them offer firm economic disadvantages
1421 2013-11-27 12:21:15 <cocaine> kjj: we are not talking about most
1422 2013-11-27 12:21:18 <cocaine> you only need 2-3
1423 2013-11-27 12:22:28 <kjj> well, I guess I reject your premise. I also don't see what anyone can do to stop it
1424 2013-11-27 12:23:01 Raziel has joined
1425 2013-11-27 12:23:16 <cocaine> kjj: why are premises incorrect?
1426 2013-11-27 12:24:23 <kjj> I don't see any threat at all from competition
1427 2013-11-27 12:24:43 fanquake has left ()
1428 2013-11-27 12:24:55 <kjj> and even if I did see a threat, I don't see any way to stop competing coins
1429 2013-11-27 12:25:05 <Emcy> if anyone can start a shitty alt and grow it, wheres the scarcity?
1430 2013-11-27 12:25:34 <petertodd> Emcy: "if they can grow it" <-
1431 2013-11-27 12:25:47 <Emcy> litecoin?
1432 2013-11-27 12:26:17 ext0 has joined
1433 2013-11-27 12:26:18 <petertodd> Emcy: yes, and then the next biggest is like half the size of litecoin, and the next biggest... lim n->infinity 1/n = 2 :)
1434 2013-11-27 12:26:27 <petertodd> er, 1/(2^n)...
1435 2013-11-27 12:27:00 robbak has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1436 2013-11-27 12:27:15 <Emcy> i had wondered if ltc value was following bitcoins
1437 2013-11-27 12:27:28 robbak has joined
1438 2013-11-27 12:27:47 <petertodd> Emcy: the market caps of the alts seems to be one of roughly diminishing returns basically
1439 2013-11-27 12:28:10 <petertodd> Emcy: is this a fundemental feature? dunno, but that's what the current situation suggests
1440 2013-11-27 12:28:34 <petertodd> Emcy: pow consensus security is a winner-take-all thing anyway
1441 2013-11-27 12:28:47 <Emcy> plus if you cant start an alt and grow it, that means blockchain currencies are a one shot thing and we probably cant innovate bitcoin much
1442 2013-11-27 12:28:57 <wumpus> heck, bitcoin adoption by merchants is still an issue, why would they go for an even more obscure alt?
1443 2013-11-27 12:29:16 <warren> <gmaxwell> Then again, peercoin has a restrictive software license that prevents modifications, and no one seems to notice or care.
1444 2013-11-27 12:29:27 <warren> gmaxwell: with static linking wouldn't that be in violation of the LGPL?
1445 2013-11-27 12:29:44 <petertodd> Emcy: yeah, hence 2-3 currencies seems reasonable, and you probably can see a lesser alt overtake a bigger one, but that doesn't mean the total market is unlimited
1446 2013-11-27 12:29:48 <warren> gmaxwell: I also wonder if sunny king can assert copyright while anonymous.
1447 2013-11-27 12:30:12 <gmaxwell> warren: it just has to be relinkable. it might be a trivially corrected violation right now.
1448 2013-11-27 12:30:29 <Emcy> does stuff like namecoin fit in there with that theory. i hope it doesnt due to its specific utility
1449 2013-11-27 12:30:29 <gmaxwell> and no, he can't... it's an empty threat most likely.
1450 2013-11-27 12:30:34 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1451 2013-11-27 12:30:58 <wumpus> it's an empty threat, but who cares to try it out
1452 2013-11-27 12:31:34 one_zero has quit ()
1453 2013-11-27 12:31:38 <petertodd> Emcy: maybe? but then we'd have btc, ltc and nmc, that's still just three :P
1454 2013-11-27 12:31:53 <petertodd> Emcy: re: merge-mining, it's hidiously insecure without majority support from miners
1455 2013-11-27 12:31:57 skinnkavaj has joined
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1458 2013-11-27 12:32:05 <gmaxwell> apparently not feathercoin, they bought a copy of some of sunnyking's crazy patches. (the announced block signature stuff)
1459 2013-11-27 12:32:46 btcbtc has joined
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1461 2013-11-27 12:33:10 <warren> cocaine: there is actually a benefit Litecoin in all the scrypt scam clones existing, but I won't tell them what it is.
1462 2013-11-27 12:34:27 <gmaxwell> well for one, it draws away a lot of crazy and seed people into nice obscure niches where they don't bother the adults.
1463 2013-11-27 12:34:27 <Emcy> haha wow realsolid is back and pulled an 11,000 btc scam
1464 2013-11-27 12:34:37 <gmaxwell> Emcy: called it
1465 2013-11-27 12:34:54 <warren> I warned people away from that too.
1466 2013-11-27 12:35:10 <warren> Emcy: URL?
1467 2013-11-27 12:35:23 <gmaxwell> link re, 11k btc?
1468 2013-11-27 12:35:26 <Emcy> wow you really can just chill for a year and wait for an influx of new marks
1469 2013-11-27 12:35:33 <wumpus> Emcy: read about it, it's hard to believe people still fell for that
1470 2013-11-27 12:35:48 <Emcy> you can even use the same persona
1471 2013-11-27 12:36:15 <warren> perhaps Trenton Shavers can make a comeback too.
1472 2013-11-27 12:36:39 <Emcy> topic=320659.0
1473 2013-11-27 12:36:44 <gmaxwell> I kept saying that before that I thought SC was a social expirement in how disreputable a cryptocurrency can be and still have users.
1474 2013-11-27 12:36:48 <gmaxwell> danke.
1475 2013-11-27 12:37:21 <gmaxwell> so I guess RS expanded the expirement to include exchanges.
1476 2013-11-27 12:37:40 <Emcy> what amazes me is how many fucking acolytes he still had after solidcoin
1477 2013-11-27 12:37:50 <Emcy> real true beleivers
1478 2013-11-27 12:37:51 <gmaxwell> oh wow! he "IPO"ed it and got 11k btc and then shut it down?
1479 2013-11-27 12:38:07 <warren> gmaxwell: they were more like preferred shares, but yes.
1480 2013-11-27 12:38:23 <Emcy> i dont get the psychology of that. When you must know youve been scammed by virtue of being sentient, but still defend?
1481 2013-11-27 12:38:36 reizuki has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1482 2013-11-27 12:38:50 sois has joined
1483 2013-11-27 12:39:07 <petertodd> Emcy: I suggest you write a paper without the assumption of sentience...
1484 2013-11-27 12:39:37 <Emcy> i remember something similar happened with madoffs smaller investors i think
1485 2013-11-27 12:39:51 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1486 2013-11-27 12:39:51 <gmaxwell> Or at least without the assumption of consciousness. No one has a good argument that consciousness is essential for intelligence.
1487 2013-11-27 12:40:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I've never seen a good argument that you exist.
1488 2013-11-27 12:40:44 <warren> He used the sale of the "mcxfee" preferred share-like things traded on his own exchange to pay the "interest" on deposits on the exchange, which is what allowed the exchange to grow in volume so rapidly.
1489 2013-11-27 12:40:49 <Emcy> ok no need for cartesian gymnastics........
1490 2013-11-27 12:41:08 <warren> I wonder how much in interest was paid out
1491 2013-11-27 12:41:18 <petertodd> warren: ha, sounds like a good scheme...
1492 2013-11-27 12:42:05 charlie2 has joined
1493 2013-11-27 12:42:15 <gmaxwell> the exchange paid interest on deposits? oy.
1494 2013-11-27 12:42:21 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1496 2013-11-27 12:42:31 samson_ has joined
1497 2013-11-27 12:42:33 <gmaxwell> were his business partners zhou and pirate40?
1498 2013-11-27 12:43:19 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1499 2013-11-27 12:43:31 <warren> gmaxwell: RS operates with business partners?
1500 2013-11-27 12:43:36 <cocaine> kjj: competition amongst currencies is bad. 1) increases difficulty gaining critical mass
1501 2013-11-27 12:43:41 <cocaine> 2) reduces investor confidence
1502 2013-11-27 12:44:00 <cocaine> no gold investors would consider investing it, if there would be a new precious metal coming out yearly.
1503 2013-11-27 12:44:35 charlie2 has left ()
1504 2013-11-27 12:44:44 <petertodd> cocaine: otoh with just a few, investors aren't worried - the problem of too many stupid alts is self-correcting
1505 2013-11-27 12:44:45 swulf-- has joined
1506 2013-11-27 12:45:05 <gmaxwell> petertodd: this is kinda OT for here.
1507 2013-11-27 12:45:05 <cocaine> petertodd: it will harm the leading coin, for sure
1508 2013-11-27 12:45:10 <cocaine> even one or two.
1509 2013-11-27 12:45:21 <cocaine> its an off-protocol flaw
1510 2013-11-27 12:45:40 <petertodd> cocaine: meh, anyway, it's off topic, and frankly technically uninteresting...
1511 2013-11-27 12:45:59 <cocaine> cryptocurrencies not gaining acceptance is technically uninteresting?
1512 2013-11-27 12:46:57 Eleck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1516 2013-11-27 12:47:50 <wumpus> if competition is bad, maybe we should go back to a state-enforced monopoly.. oh wait
1517 2013-11-27 12:47:53 <petertodd> cocaine: yes, that's not a technical question
1518 2013-11-27 12:47:55 _W_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1519 2013-11-27 12:48:07 <cocaine> wumpus: we alreay had competition, it was called private money.
1520 2013-11-27 12:48:29 Eleck has joined
1521 2013-11-27 12:48:33 <cocaine> competition is only good if it produces increases in productivity, competition in standards reduces it.
1522 2013-11-27 12:48:35 markus___ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1523 2013-11-27 12:48:56 <cocaine> petertodd: it is a technical question. if you can clone a coin easily, its basically fakeable
1524 2013-11-27 12:49:16 <cocaine> you have no interest in unfakeable currency?
1525 2013-11-27 12:49:20 shesek has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1526 2013-11-27 12:49:23 variousnefarious has joined
1527 2013-11-27 12:49:27 <wumpus> competition is a fact of life, you simply can't do anything about it, at least not in a decentralized way without violence, and that's what bitcoin is about (so I agree with petertod, this is not technically interesting)
1528 2013-11-27 12:49:41 _W_ has joined
1529 2013-11-27 12:49:50 <cocaine> money/currency itself is not a technical question either.
1530 2013-11-27 12:50:14 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1531 2013-11-27 12:53:24 <swulf--> Is there any way on bitcointalk.org to produce a "draft" post, save it for later, without publishing it to the intended forum just yet?
1532 2013-11-27 12:53:35 <swulf--> (so that you can share a link with interested parties first?)
1533 2013-11-27 12:53:43 <Emcy> notepad.exe?
1534 2013-11-27 12:53:48 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1535 2013-11-27 12:54:00 <cocaine> wumpus: competition is good, so im guessing having 1345234 different kinds of bills to use daily - thats a good thing?
1536 2013-11-27 12:54:03 <Emcy> oh, pastebin.com?
1537 2013-11-27 12:54:41 <wumpus> cocaine: don't ask me what is a good thing
1538 2013-11-27 12:54:55 <cocaine> wumpus: you cant decide for yourself?
1539 2013-11-27 12:55:03 <wumpus> I can't decide for you
1540 2013-11-27 12:55:06 random_cat has joined
1541 2013-11-27 12:55:06 <cocaine> ok, does anyone here know how can i get in touch with hal finney?
1542 2013-11-27 12:55:45 <cocaine> does he still post anywhere after als?
1543 2013-11-27 12:55:50 <gmaxwell> Sometimes.
1544 2013-11-27 12:56:02 <cocaine> where is the easiest to find him?
1545 2013-11-27 12:56:03 <gmaxwell> He is very low bandwidth now, at least on the output side.
1546 2013-11-27 12:56:10 <cocaine> i know, but this is important.
1547 2013-11-27 12:56:29 <cocaine> he voiced this concern some time ago, i want to know what he thinks about the current situation.
1548 2013-11-27 12:56:32 canoon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1549 2013-11-27 12:56:43 <gmaxwell> you want to contact him about this?!
1550 2013-11-27 12:56:44 <petertodd> cocaine: is it something that can be made public? if so, make it public on bitcointalk - he'll read it
1551 2013-11-27 12:56:54 <gmaxwell> I don't think it would be considerate of me to give out his email address, you could attempt to send him a message on bitcointalk.
1552 2013-11-27 12:57:04 <cocaine> gmaxwell: yes, he mentioned that competition of altcoins could harm bitcoin
1553 2013-11-27 12:57:09 <cocaine> and i think we are getting close.
1554 2013-11-27 12:57:12 <gmaxwell> but yea, a public message is even better, since people other than hal can respond to you.
1555 2013-11-27 12:57:20 <gmaxwell> you've got to be kidding me.
1556 2013-11-27 12:57:23 JWU42 has quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
1557 2013-11-27 12:57:28 <gmaxwell> :(
1558 2013-11-27 12:57:34 <cocaine> gmaxwell: its very early.
1559 2013-11-27 12:57:38 JWU42 has joined
1560 2013-11-27 12:57:44 <cocaine> but it can get much uglier very soon.
1561 2013-11-27 12:57:48 JWU42 has quit (Client Quit)
1562 2013-11-27 12:58:00 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1563 2013-11-27 12:58:04 <gmaxwell> god you sound like that "WE'VE GOT TO FORK BITCOIN BEFORE THE BANKS DO" troll in 2011.
1564 2013-11-27 12:58:06 JWU42 has joined
1565 2013-11-27 12:58:14 <cocaine> im not trolling.
1566 2013-11-27 12:58:15 <petertodd> cocaine: come up with a solid *technical* proposal to fix the problem then, and publish it on bitcointalk for peer review, if it passes, hal will see it
1567 2013-11-27 12:58:42 <cocaine> i want cryptocurrencies to succeed.
1568 2013-11-27 12:58:43 <petertodd> cocaine: I can think of a half-dozen serious problems that bitcoin faces, but I don't go off contacting hal about them...
1569 2013-11-27 12:58:46 <Emcy> !ticker
1570 2013-11-27 12:58:46 <gribble> MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 963.00001, Best ask: 966.9, Bid-ask spread: 3.89999, Last trade: 966.9, 24 hour volume: 28688.00544561, 24 hour low: 860.001, 24 hour high: 983.99, 24 hour vwap: 933.89887
1571 2013-11-27 12:58:55 <cocaine> petertodd: i know of no way to preven this myself.
1572 2013-11-27 12:58:59 <gmaxwell> this is sillyness, monies in general tend to be natural monopolies.
1573 2013-11-27 12:59:00 <cocaine> at least, in technical terms.
1574 2013-11-27 12:59:14 <cocaine> gmaxwell: are you familiar with how HKD operates
1575 2013-11-27 12:59:15 <petertodd> cocaine: then go find one for us - raising awareness will just kill off bitcoin faster...
1576 2013-11-27 12:59:20 <gmaxwell> I'll show you how preventing forks works and you can tell me how you feel about it.
1577 2013-11-27 12:59:33 <petertodd> lol
1578 2013-11-27 12:59:53 <gmaxwell> /msg cocaine you've now been prevented from forking discussion in #bitcoin-dev. Cheers.
1579 2013-11-27 13:00:09 <petertodd> so -dev question: what's the timeline on 0.8.6 right now? day or three? week?
1580 2013-11-27 13:00:11 * owowo wonders why cocaine was talking about "mushrooming"
1581 2013-11-27 13:00:20 <Emcy> coke AND amphs eh
1582 2013-11-27 13:00:27 <Emcy> might explain
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1589 2013-11-27 13:11:20 cocaine has joined
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1592 2013-11-27 13:13:30 <owowo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnMgBW-H9PU <-- Lot's of forking going on. And you can't do anything to prevent it. :P
1593 2013-11-27 13:13:34 * owowo runs
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1613 2013-11-27 13:25:45 <Plarkplark_> any date on fee system update? Or allowing smaller transactions again?
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1616 2013-11-27 13:27:13 <Emcy> smaller transaaction?
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1626 2013-11-27 13:35:04 terry is now known as Guest55014
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1632 2013-11-27 13:43:35 <TD> sigh. two blocks in the last hour, both at 243kb
1633 2013-11-27 13:43:53 michagogo has joined
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1636 2013-11-27 13:45:48 <stonecoldpat> i assume the difficulty has been set too high ?
1637 2013-11-27 13:46:29 <TD> no
1638 2013-11-27 13:46:31 <TD> just luck
1639 2013-11-27 13:47:10 <kjj> we should remove "luck" from our vocabulary. what we are seeing is normal variance
1640 2013-11-27 13:47:44 <null> good variance with that
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1644 2013-11-27 13:52:39 <owowo> stonecoldpat: no, p2pool having "bad luck"
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1685 2013-11-27 14:59:16 <Emcy> what is the txn queue depth now
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1688 2013-11-27 15:03:22 <melvster> congrats on making history team! http://bitflag.org/
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1691 2013-11-27 15:04:48 <Emcy> wuts that link
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1700 2013-11-27 15:11:07 <Emcy> why is wikipedia maths articles so inconsistent in presentation
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1702 2013-11-27 15:11:49 <Emcy> the diffe helman keying article eases you in nice with a picture
1703 2013-11-27 15:12:16 <Emcy> but articles about other algos and crypto stuff is just like "here have some latex now go away"
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1809 2013-11-27 17:09:26 <Burritoh> What do these OSX bugs affect? Only Bitcoin-Qt, or other implementations too?
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1901 2013-11-27 19:05:17 <TD> jgarzik: are you around? i'm wondering why bitpay is so slow to pick up on broadcast transactions these days
1902 2013-11-27 19:05:20 <TD> it used to be instant
1903 2013-11-27 19:06:02 <swulf--> I used it today and it was really quick.
1904 2013-11-27 19:06:11 <swulf--> <20 seconds.
1905 2013-11-27 19:06:36 <swulf--> Hit or miss though, seen it slow before too..
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1918 2013-11-27 19:16:05 <petertodd> swulf--: tx volume is very high, and lots of new nodes syncing blockchains right now...
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1926 2013-11-27 19:20:19 <swulf--> ah
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1934 2013-11-27 19:30:14 <jgarzik> gah. still need stats.
1935 2013-11-27 19:30:29 <jgarzik> tempted to make bitcoind dump some network stats every 30 seconds, to a text[-ish] file.
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1942 2013-11-27 19:37:20 <TD> yeah i also saw a very slow tx propagation just now
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1944 2013-11-27 19:37:29 <TD> and some peers had ping times >1sec which implies main loop saturation
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1947 2013-11-27 19:45:48 <Emcy> "For Bitcoin to go from zero to $1,000 in just five years has been amazing to watch," said Mike Hearn, a Bitcoin developer.
1948 2013-11-27 19:45:58 <Emcy> are you the bbcs bitcoin media contact now?
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1951 2013-11-27 19:47:09 <jgarzik> Emcy, heh, one of many, he is
1952 2013-11-27 19:48:18 <TD> there's another story coming out tomorrow where i have a 400 word article about why bitcoin rocks
1953 2013-11-27 19:48:37 <TD> it was supposed to go out today, but the person who was supposed to provide the "bitcoin sucks and is a bubble" article bailed at the last minute!
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1955 2013-11-27 19:49:10 <Emcy> on the bbc?
1956 2013-11-27 19:49:15 <Emcy> guest column?
1957 2013-11-27 19:49:58 <TD> yeah
1958 2013-11-27 19:49:59 <Emcy> im gonna say yes seeing as you mentioned a guy doing a bitcoin is crap piece
1959 2013-11-27 19:50:24 <Emcy> thats how the /bbc seems to do balance......just find anyone with an opposing opinion, no matter how rediculous
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1962 2013-11-27 19:50:39 <Emcy> they do this with climate change articles and other pure factual reporting too
1963 2013-11-27 19:51:54 <TD> jgarzik: pizza arrived!
1964 2013-11-27 19:51:59 <TD> another bitcoin success
1965 2013-11-27 19:52:03 <TD> yeah
1966 2013-11-27 19:52:05 <jgarzik> td: hehehe
1967 2013-11-27 19:52:13 <petertodd> Emcy: well, "bitcoin sucks and is a bubble" is a more defensible statement by far than climate change isn't real :p
1968 2013-11-27 19:52:36 <TD> i got a quote into the guardian too. guess the UK media is settling down with a group of people they can rely on to quickly express a given opinion
1969 2013-11-27 19:52:37 <Emcy> not saying much
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1971 2013-11-27 19:53:00 <Emcy> TD i actually have some experience of that being the case
1972 2013-11-27 19:53:16 <Emcy> they just want quotes from someone within an hour
1973 2013-11-27 19:53:26 <Emcy> the content doesnt matter too much
1974 2013-11-27 19:53:40 <jgarzik> TD: reporters love quick responses even more than accuracy ;p
1975 2013-11-27 19:53:46 <TD> yeah
1976 2013-11-27 19:53:49 <TD> no kidding
1977 2013-11-27 19:53:52 <TD> well fortunately we can do that
1978 2013-11-27 19:53:58 <TD> this is such a huge improvement over 2011
1979 2013-11-27 19:54:11 <TD> some of the garbage that was published back then was just amazing
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1982 2013-11-27 19:55:21 <Emcy> well they still feel the need to mention drugs and guns, and implied it only found a semblance of acceptance after the senate committe stamped it with a big ol official stamp of officious approval
1983 2013-11-27 19:55:37 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1984 2013-11-27 19:55:42 <TD> it's the human interest angle
1985 2013-11-27 19:55:47 <TD> makes a dry story exciting
1986 2013-11-27 19:56:12 <Emcy> i know a good saying about that
1987 2013-11-27 19:56:17 drayah has joined
1988 2013-11-27 19:56:19 <Emcy> it starts with small minds discuss people
1989 2013-11-27 19:57:04 <Emcy> BBC have been pissing me off very much recently anyway
1990 2013-11-27 19:57:17 <Emcy> theyve become noticably worse since the tories got in
1991 2013-11-27 19:57:32 <Emcy> i think theyre scared of them and are thus toeing the line
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2001 2013-11-27 20:13:41 <jgarzik> Looks like it's time for a new blockchain torrent
2002 2013-11-27 20:13:44 <jgarzik> with all the new interest
2003 2013-11-27 20:14:57 wyrag has joined
2004 2013-11-27 20:15:10 <Emcy> jgarzik make it with a small text file explaining what to do
2005 2013-11-27 20:15:31 <jgarzik> Emcy, is this insufficient? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0
2006 2013-11-27 20:16:03 <Emcy> because not everyone gets it from that post
2007 2013-11-27 20:16:17 <Emcy> i for one just hand out the magnet link
2008 2013-11-27 20:16:29 <wyrag> is it ok if i redirect xbt.ie to bitcoin.org?
2009 2013-11-27 20:17:00 <jgarzik> Emcy, oh, you're asking for a file inside the torrent itself? Will think about that... right now it's a single file torrent.
2010 2013-11-27 20:17:24 <Emcy> isnt it in a folder
2011 2013-11-27 20:17:30 asuk has joined
2012 2013-11-27 20:19:19 <Emcy> oh no its not, thats a shame
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2014 2013-11-27 20:20:00 <Emcy> you could use the comment feild in the .torrent for a one line instruction i suppose.
2015 2013-11-27 20:20:35 <jgarzik> Emcy, indeed
2016 2013-11-27 20:20:49 <jgarzik> Emcy, maybe a folder isn't so bad... cli users can figure it out
2017 2013-11-27 20:22:31 <Emcy> actually it might reduce seeds, atm you can seed the file straight out of the bitcoin directory
2018 2013-11-27 20:22:57 <Emcy> i dont know if you can make a torrent with multiple files without the directory
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2026 2013-11-27 20:30:21 <diki> for a while now I've thought of this feature for Bitcoin, however I am not sure if it's possible.
2027 2013-11-27 20:30:47 <diki> Displaying the size of the transaction as you type in the amount of Bitcoins you want to send
2028 2013-11-27 20:31:03 <diki> as well as automatic calculation of the fee beside it
2029 2013-11-27 20:31:12 <diki> of course, I am not sure if it's possible at all
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2032 2013-11-27 20:32:24 <warren> diki: already happens
2033 2013-11-27 20:32:27 dataangel has joined
2034 2013-11-27 20:32:35 <diki> warren:What already happens?
2035 2013-11-27 20:33:08 <warren> diki: display size of transacion before send
2036 2013-11-27 20:33:15 <diki> really?
2037 2013-11-27 20:33:20 <diki> I don't remember seeing it in -Qt
2038 2013-11-27 20:34:20 Nesetalis has joined
2039 2013-11-27 20:35:14 <warren> diki: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320695.0 this branch or bitcoin master have Coin Control which has an advanced view of sending
2040 2013-11-27 20:35:35 <diki> looks like someone already did it :D
2041 2013-11-27 20:35:39 <diki> darn.
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2044 2013-11-27 20:36:44 <Emcy> how would that be useful
2045 2013-11-27 20:37:04 <Emcy> you either need to send x coins or you dont, vast majority of the time
2046 2013-11-27 20:37:37 <diki> Power users want to know more :D
2047 2013-11-27 20:37:46 <diki> Size of tx before sending, tx hash etc
2048 2013-11-27 20:38:34 <Emcy> could probably be done
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2080 2013-11-27 21:19:28 <Emcy> It published a document, leaked by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden, identifying two Muslims said to be vulnerable to accusations of "online promiscuity".
2081 2013-11-27 21:19:29 crescentmoon is now known as Luna
2082 2013-11-27 21:19:29 <Emcy> An official said this was unsurprising.
2083 2013-11-27 21:19:29 <Emcy> But campaign group Privacy International called it "frightening".
2084 2013-11-27 21:19:41 <Emcy> verbatim. This is what i mean about the bbc
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2099 2013-11-27 21:32:20 <shamoon> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/cbb91643498a762b442a
2100 2013-11-27 21:32:22 <shamoon> this hasn't confirmed
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2117 2013-11-27 21:57:13 <diki> oh wow
2118 2013-11-27 21:57:19 <diki> tomorrow will be one year since the block halved
2119 2013-11-27 22:03:49 <diki> funny
2120 2013-11-27 22:03:56 <diki> it still feels like it was yesterday that it halved
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2133 2013-11-27 22:13:55 <andytoshi> wow diki
2134 2013-11-27 22:14:09 <andytoshi> five years eh
2135 2013-11-27 22:14:28 <diki> yeah
2136 2013-11-27 22:14:32 <diki> doesn't feel like it at all
2137 2013-11-27 22:15:18 drayah has joined
2138 2013-11-27 22:15:39 <edcba> and it's been a while since slashdot announced bitcoin parity with dollar...
2139 2013-11-27 22:16:46 <edcba> and we all rejoiced like it was a major step :)
2140 2013-11-27 22:17:09 <diki> when I joined it just went to 3 dollars
2141 2013-11-27 22:18:15 SwampTony has joined
2142 2013-11-27 22:18:17 <edcba> i looked at tx from that time of ppl giving me 0.1 btc and if they didn't sell there previous stash i think i don't really need to send them their 0.1 btc back lol
2143 2013-11-27 22:19:01 <andytoshi> somebody gave me .17 btc here once, he said he was bored of bitcoin and was deleting his wallet
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2147 2013-11-27 22:21:40 <SomeoneWeird> diki, jesus, really?
2148 2013-11-27 22:22:08 <diki> andytoshi:I see people giving a bitcoin every day
2149 2013-11-27 22:22:16 <diki> Around the gambling parts we call it "rain" lol
2150 2013-11-27 22:22:39 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2152 2013-11-27 22:23:35 <diki> SomeoneWeird:Yeah
2153 2013-11-27 22:23:40 <diki> Price just went to 3 dollars
2154 2013-11-27 22:23:48 <diki> at the time I mean
2155 2013-11-27 22:24:02 <diki> and people were pretty ecstatic about that
2156 2013-11-27 22:24:10 <diki> when it shot up to 30, that is when the fun started
2157 2013-11-27 22:24:17 <diki> those days pale in comparison to today
2158 2013-11-27 22:24:25 <diki> but they were pretty interesting then
2159 2013-11-27 22:24:28 <andytoshi> i came in after the fall from 33 :P, bought at 13
2160 2013-11-27 22:24:35 <andytoshi> then it went down to 10 and i thought, oh crap
2161 2013-11-27 22:24:46 <andytoshi> so i sold then, almost got back in at 3, but figured it was going to zero :P
2162 2013-11-27 22:25:19 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
2163 2013-11-27 22:25:21 <andytoshi> so i wound up buying in at 8 or so, selling at 16 (what a bubble this is!) and that's history
2164 2013-11-27 22:25:25 <sipa> /me: bought at 0.27, sold at 0.4, bought at 0.6...
2165 2013-11-27 22:25:43 <andytoshi> haha, good times
2166 2013-11-27 22:25:54 <diki> sipa:Let me guess, a couple of thousand of coins
2167 2013-11-27 22:26:00 <diki> but yeah
2168 2013-11-27 22:26:08 <diki> what I wouldn't give to go back to those times
2169 2013-11-27 22:26:13 <diki> mining with the GPU and all
2170 2013-11-27 22:26:17 <diki> still all new to Bitcoin
2171 2013-11-27 22:27:14 Blitzboom has joined
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2173 2013-11-27 22:27:41 <andytoshi> i feel that way sometimes, then i decide that these first few years will all blur together in history
2174 2013-11-27 22:27:51 <andytoshi> and the times you want to go back to, you're living through now
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2178 2013-11-27 22:30:26 <edcba> weird to install some software let it run and earn more money doing that than your last 5 years :)p
2179 2013-11-27 22:31:34 <edcba> (potential money ?)
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2188 2013-11-27 22:36:44 <gmaxwell> milibit parity, but we've got a long way to go until world domination.
2189 2013-11-27 22:37:27 Grouver has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)
2190 2013-11-27 22:37:45 <sipa> next up: 1 BTC == 1 GOOG, followed by 1 BTC == 1 oz gold
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2194 2013-11-27 22:42:10 <gmaxwell> wait, we're not at gold yet?
2195 2013-11-27 22:42:15 <gmaxwell> ;;ticker --currency xau
2196 2013-11-27 22:42:19 <gribble> MtGox BTCXAU ticker | Best bid: 0.831200008, Best ask: 0.843919984, Bid-ask spread: 0.01272, Last trade: 0.848, 24 hour volume: 36800.12363896, 24 hour low: 0.731452448, 24 hour high: 0.8584, 24 hour vwap: 0.795548832
2197 2013-11-27 22:44:07 <sipa> hmm, what?
2198 2013-11-27 22:45:48 <gmaxwell> 1 BTC costs 0.84 gold ounces, so not quite 1:1 yet.
2199 2013-11-27 22:45:59 <sipa> ah!
2200 2013-11-27 22:46:33 cluelessperson has joined
2201 2013-11-27 22:46:37 <cluelessperson> I have a serious question
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2204 2013-11-27 22:47:53 <cluelessperson> while encryption keeps people from accessing a known bitcoin address, what prevent using random generation to test billions of random private keys?
2205 2013-11-27 22:48:11 <edcba> lol
2206 2013-11-27 22:48:21 <edcba> it's a lot more than billions
2207 2013-11-27 22:48:43 <gmaxwell> cluelessperson: Thats really bitcoin 101 stuff, it should be asked in #bitcoin
2208 2013-11-27 22:49:16 <cluelessperson> well
2209 2013-11-27 22:49:26 <edcba> imagine 1billion computers generating 1billion address/s and it will still take a lot of time to find some already used address
2210 2013-11-27 22:49:27 <cluelessperson> I've googled it several times
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2212 2013-11-27 22:49:38 <andytoshi> cluelessperson: move to #bitcoin and ask the same question, we are all there
2213 2013-11-27 22:49:48 <edcba> almost
2214 2013-11-27 22:49:50 <andytoshi> but this channel is used (and logged) for development issues
2215 2013-11-27 22:49:50 * edcba joins
2216 2013-11-27 22:50:00 <cluelessperson> I'm here because I'm trying to learn how to do stuff with python related to bitcoin
2217 2013-11-27 22:50:18 <andytoshi> ok, you can be in both channels then :P
2218 2013-11-27 22:51:29 <edcba> http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/2482/how-strong-is-the-ecdsa-algorithm
2219 2013-11-27 22:52:14 cald has quit ()
2220 2013-11-27 22:52:23 <diki> cluelessperson:Well first thing's first
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2222 2013-11-27 22:52:41 <diki> when reading the wiki, note that all operations are done on the bytes, not the ascii hex representation
2223 2013-11-27 22:52:42 <edcba> and that doesn't take into account the hash
2224 2013-11-27 22:53:21 <gmaxwell> edcba: please, when I redirect someone into #bitcoin don't continue answering here.
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2228 2013-11-27 22:59:04 <shamoon> how does bitcoin-qt know the estimated total blocks?
2229 2013-11-27 22:59:11 <shamoon> when it's not caught up downloading?
2230 2013-11-27 22:59:23 <diki> I think the nodes relay that information
2231 2013-11-27 22:59:30 <edcba> gmaxwell: yeah sorry my drunken brain took time to process that
2232 2013-11-27 22:59:31 <diki> on request of course
2233 2013-11-27 22:59:41 <gmaxwell> shamoon: estimate based on the current date.
2234 2013-11-27 22:59:54 <shamoon> ahh - so it calculates how many there should be.. roughly?
2235 2013-11-27 22:59:59 <shamoon> what function does that in the source code?
2236 2013-11-27 23:00:05 <diki> oh, I was wrong?
2237 2013-11-27 23:00:18 mapppum has joined
2238 2013-11-27 23:00:22 <diki> I really did think the nodes relayed that information. Learned something new today
2239 2013-11-27 23:00:24 <edcba> thr whole source code is built on that regular block generation time
2240 2013-11-27 23:00:36 johnsoft has joined
2241 2013-11-27 23:00:51 <edcba> ie the client makes it so block happens regularly
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2255 2013-11-27 23:08:26 <sipa> shamoon: in checkpoints.cpp, EstimateVerificationProgress, iirc
2256 2013-11-27 23:08:33 <shamoon> thanks sipa
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2278 2013-11-27 23:38:15 <melvster> im trying to think of what innovation would be the most value add to the bitcoin eco system ... it seems to me that a really scalable digital exchange seems to be something that could offer benefit?
2279 2013-11-27 23:38:43 Evilmax has quit ()
2280 2013-11-27 23:39:31 <melvster> ive almost finished my semantic web block explorer ... i could perhaps use the same technology to make a domain independent exchange
2281 2013-11-27 23:39:33 rdymac has joined
2282 2013-11-27 23:40:26 <gmaxwell> more people reporting memory exhaustion in initial sync on x86: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=349143.0
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2287 2013-11-27 23:44:37 <diki> gmaxwell:Confirmed
2288 2013-11-27 23:44:48 <diki> gmaxwell:I was syncing with Litecoin
2289 2013-11-27 23:44:57 <diki> was watching a movie and then wham black screen
2290 2013-11-27 23:45:03 <diki> turns out my machine ran out of memory
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2293 2013-11-27 23:49:13 <diki> It happens slowly though
2294 2013-11-27 23:49:18 CodeShark has joined
2295 2013-11-27 23:49:24 <diki> not sure how the case would be with Bitcoin, many txes etc
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