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  26 2013-11-30 00:22:57 <HaltingState> I am reading mastercoin spec; whenever someone buys anything for bitcoin, they have to send an output to "exodus address" and it has to be above the dust treshhold of 54 uBTC. which is 1 penny; will be like $1 soon, going to create massive number of unspent transactions
  27 2013-11-30 00:24:53 <warren> toffoo: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770
  28 2013-11-30 00:24:57 <warren> please respond
  29 2013-11-30 00:27:28 mitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  30 2013-11-30 00:28:31 <andytoshi> when i pipe bitcoin diffs to mail, sometimes there are too many non-alphanumerics and the MIME type is autodetected wrongly as binary
  31 2013-11-30 00:28:40 <andytoshi> is anyone familiar with mailx or mime autodetection?
  32 2013-11-30 00:29:34 Guyver2 has quit (Quit: :))
  33 2013-11-30 00:31:55 <dexX7> HaltingState: there seem to be plans to avoid unspendable outputs in the future, either by using op_return or constructs like this: https://blockchain.info/tx/3e5fd9702ec7755a61b8040b0872482896391c5e25739e666c7af70dcbc7625d (which is not "in the spec" currently though)
  34 2013-11-30 00:32:01 denisx_ has joined
  35 2013-11-30 00:32:52 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: their 'exodus address' is perfectly spendable. It's a regular private key that the creators of the system have.
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  38 2013-11-30 00:33:56 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, yes; its interesting; wonder how long until someone steals private key :)
  39 2013-11-30 00:34:11 <HaltingState> he has to keep it live on computer attached to network for various reasons
  40 2013-11-30 00:34:19 <warren> gmaxwell: maybe I should announce a 'spec' with no code too...
  41 2013-11-30 00:34:29 <HaltingState> and he has to sign a lot of transactions with it
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  43 2013-11-30 00:35:12 <HaltingState> dexX7, explain how you prevent unspendable outputs?
  44 2013-11-30 00:35:29 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: they originally had it loaded in a blockchain.info wallet at some point.
  45 2013-11-30 00:35:47 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, OMFG LULZ
  46 2013-11-30 00:35:51 drayah has quit (Client Quit)
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  48 2013-11-30 00:36:03 <HaltingState> so its in the blockchain.info backups somewhere
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  50 2013-11-30 00:36:52 <HaltingState> well mastercoin will be great for minings, its going to create massive transaction fees; people are going to publish gold price in blockchain every minute and its going to cost 10 cents per publication
  51 2013-11-30 00:36:58 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: laugh it up, ... but those guys managed to pull in 4 million bucks from other people, what have you accomplished this year? :P
  52 2013-11-30 00:37:21 <diki> Question.
  53 2013-11-30 00:37:35 <saracen> Answer.
  54 2013-11-30 00:37:39 ahbritto has joined
  55 2013-11-30 00:37:41 <diki> How would one know if his DNS was compromised and he was redirected to a phishing website?
  56 2013-11-30 00:37:55 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, I am going to vegas to stay at guys mansion I know in LA; other guy with me made 10 million in mastercoin this week :) market is getting frothy
  57 2013-11-30 00:37:58 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i suspect mastercoin engaged in fraud
  58 2013-11-30 00:38:08 <phantomcircuit> however im pretty sure nobody will ever be able to prove it
  59 2013-11-30 00:38:09 <phantomcircuit> :(
  60 2013-11-30 00:38:26 <HaltingState> i am wondering if the bitcoin vegas thing is going to be a bunch of coked up people or what; will see if price hits $2k before 10th
  61 2013-11-30 00:38:36 <saracen> diki: I don't think he would know.
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  64 2013-11-30 00:39:11 <diki> phantomcircuit:I haven't been living under a rock, but I haven't been much interested in these Zerocoin/Mastercoin. What are they for?
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  66 2013-11-30 00:39:38 <phantomcircuit> diki, zerocoin is a legitimate attempt to build a truly anonymous payments system
  67 2013-11-30 00:39:43 <phantomcircuit> mastercoin is a shitty altcoin
  68 2013-11-30 00:40:00 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, well i think you are 100% right about litecoin. mastercoin I think will fail, but its important because people are thinking about this stuff now. they will work it out eventually (hopefully not on main blockchain and hopefully with security someday)
  69 2013-11-30 00:40:04 <diki> If mastercoin is an alt, what does it have to do with Bitcoin?
  70 2013-11-30 00:40:15 <HaltingState> mastercoin is on the bitcoin block chain
  71 2013-11-30 00:40:22 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/iHKynRxn <-- anyone know why Armory won't build?
  72 2013-11-30 00:40:23 <HaltingState> its like satoshi dice
  73 2013-11-30 00:40:47 <phantomcircuit> diki, they have some crazy shit where they do bitcoin transactions and generate mastercoins as colored coins or something
  74 2013-11-30 00:40:53 <phantomcircuit> tbh i cant 100% remember
  75 2013-11-30 00:41:08 <dexX7> HaltingState: in the above linked tx there is no unspendable output anymore, it's just the exodus addr, the receiver and 1-of-2 multisig output which includes the sender and the datapacket. this is currently (in a not so compact form) already used, for example: https://blockchain.info/tx/9e2a5bba2d146a9de22ed288fdbc980db5b0cb717a6fc47c92713260051b5fe8
  76 2013-11-30 00:41:15 <phantomcircuit> i do however remember gmaxwell breaking their PoW essentially entirely in like 10 minutes
  77 2013-11-30 00:41:27 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I thought that was Bitshares?
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  79 2013-11-30 00:42:25 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, that was bitshares the other alt thing trading on the bitcoin name around the same time.
  80 2013-11-30 00:42:40 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, how did you break his proof of work? I liked the idea
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  82 2013-11-30 00:43:08 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, oh ok
  83 2013-11-30 00:43:18 <phantomcircuit> it's so hard to keep all these stupid things straight
  84 2013-11-30 00:43:43 <HaltingState> I liked find x,y where sha256(x) mod D = = sha256(y) mod D, where difficulty is D. it seemed innovative
  85 2013-11-30 00:43:59 <diki> breaking proof of work??
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  87 2013-11-30 00:44:15 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: because it was just incompetence and unicorn farts strung together with marketing and hope. What you're describing is like their forth attempt. I broke their first one.
  88 2013-11-30 00:44:31 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: though that one isn't progress free, so it creates an advantage for larger miners.
  89 2013-11-30 00:44:52 <gmaxwell> There is also a time memory tradeoff, so its not actually memory hard.
  90 2013-11-30 00:44:53 <HaltingState> ah; you mean miners with more ram per machine?
  91 2013-11-30 00:45:19 <HaltingState> oh hash table for lookup; hmm this is interesting problem
  92 2013-11-30 00:45:36 <HaltingState> his first paper sucked, was very complicated for the idea
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  94 2013-11-30 00:45:59 <sipa> complicated paper != good idea
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  96 2013-11-30 00:47:08 <HaltingState> sipa, did you see mastercoin paper? lol. I read that and first time was like "what is this shit!?". did not take it seriously for months until yesterday
  97 2013-11-30 00:47:18 <gmaxwell> the first thing was just marketing bs and had a simple algebraic simplication that let you convert its 128MBs of memory accessed to ~8192 bytes of memory needed and accessed.  The problem is that they were hardly putting in the world to do a competent job, but instead throwing crap against the wallet and changing it when someone breaks it.
  98 2013-11-30 00:47:50 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: yea, I thought it would go nowhere, I became somewhat concerned when they raised a jillion bitcoin and started creating large numbers of upspendable txouts.
  99 2013-11-30 00:47:57 paybitcoin has joined
 100 2013-11-30 00:48:08 <HaltingState> "let you convert its 128MBs of memory accessed to ~8192 bytes of memory needed and accessed" oh god lol
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 102 2013-11-30 00:48:59 <HaltingState> litecoin i think should have added writeback into the array, to prevent/deter GPU mining if that was the intention; script seems to have stood up well however
 103 2013-11-30 00:51:20 <BustyLoli-Chan> is there a way to make bitcoind show all of the addresses associated with an account and the individual amounts of money that each of those addresses has recieved all in one command?
 104 2013-11-30 00:51:53 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 105 2013-11-30 00:52:26 <BustyLoli-Chan> I'm guessing it would be the listreceivedbyaddress command?
 106 2013-11-30 00:53:16 <kjj> for the love of god, will you people please just stop asking the node to do that shit?
 107 2013-11-30 00:53:38 <BustyLoli-Chan> the node?
 108 2013-11-30 00:54:05 madthanu has joined
 109 2013-11-30 00:54:07 <BustyLoli-Chan> I was under the impression I had a copy of the entire blockchain sitting on my computer... why can't I just browse it locally?
 110 2013-11-30 00:54:08 <edcba> accounts aren't associated to addresses
 111 2013-11-30 00:54:25 <kjj> if you really care what payments came in to different addresses, you should be writing your own software
 112 2013-11-30 00:54:44 <sipa> BustyLoli-Chan: only the transactions in the wallet are indexed
 113 2013-11-30 00:54:46 <edcba> the solution i found to do that is using 2 different users
 114 2013-11-30 00:54:56 <edcba> export import keys
 115 2013-11-30 00:55:03 JimJones__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 116 2013-11-30 00:55:05 <BustyLoli-Chan> "address" : "1JjwuYdx1Ta7mLKVj8LNU9obiDuYZJupMi", "account" : "General Purpose", "amount" : 2.98505246, "confirmations" : 389
 117 2013-11-30 00:55:07 <edcba> so 1 user has only 1 address
 118 2013-11-30 00:55:47 <BustyLoli-Chan> no... one "account" I have has tons
 119 2013-11-30 00:55:53 <BustyLoli-Chan> and is going to have a lot mor
 120 2013-11-30 00:56:07 <sipa> BustyLoli-Chan: so, you want by address or by account?
 121 2013-11-30 00:56:12 <sipa> you receive coins using an address
 122 2013-11-30 00:56:12 <edcba> maybe you should write some software then
 123 2013-11-30 00:56:17 <sipa> but accounts are just beancounters
 124 2013-11-30 00:56:25 <BustyLoli-Chan> I am writing some software
 125 2013-11-30 00:56:42 <BustyLoli-Chan> My software is gathering information from bitcoind
 126 2013-11-30 00:56:49 <BustyLoli-Chan> pasing it via json
 127 2013-11-30 00:56:50 <sipa> if an address is tied to account X, (external) sends to that address will credit that account
 128 2013-11-30 00:56:52 <BustyLoli-Chan> *parsing
 129 2013-11-30 00:57:07 <sipa> but it's not like the coins belong to that account or anything
 130 2013-11-30 00:57:08 <BustyLoli-Chan> okay
 131 2013-11-30 00:57:20 <sipa> bitcoind moves coins around between addresses when you do transactions, transparently
 132 2013-11-30 00:57:22 <BustyLoli-Chan> but by running "listreceivedbyaddress"
 133 2013-11-30 00:57:29 <sipa> the accounts system abstracts from that
 134 2013-11-30 00:57:32 <edcba> the best to do is stop using that shitty api and directly transmit through bitcoin port to official client your tx imo
 135 2013-11-30 00:57:35 <BustyLoli-Chan> It will show me all amounts recieved by all addresses?
 136 2013-11-30 00:57:50 <sipa> by all wallet addresses, from external transactions, yes
 137 2013-11-30 00:58:01 <BustyLoli-Chan> okay, thank you
 138 2013-11-30 00:58:10 <BustyLoli-Chan> edcba is there a guide on how to do this?
 139 2013-11-30 00:58:10 <sipa> it will not show you the "balance" of those addresses
 140 2013-11-30 00:58:23 <BustyLoli-Chan> I don't need that... just the money recieved
 141 2013-11-30 00:58:26 <sipa> ok
 142 2013-11-30 00:58:30 <sipa> that's what it's for
 143 2013-11-30 00:59:39 <BustyLoli-Chan> also... how many confirmations is a good number before you can trust that a transaction actually has taken place
 144 2013-11-30 00:59:43 <BustyLoli-Chan> is 1 usually enough?
 145 2013-11-30 01:00:19 <Belxjander> BustyLoli-Chan: 2-3 confirmations minimum... but the general de facto standard is to have 6 confirmations
 146 2013-11-30 01:00:30 <BustyLoli-Chan> I see, thank you
 147 2013-11-30 01:01:12 <edcba> btw are split still happening ?
 148 2013-11-30 01:01:26 <edcba> do we have some stats for that ?
 149 2013-11-30 01:01:47 <sipa> edcba: unless you invent FTL travel, i doubt how we could not have (small, temporary) forks
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 154 2013-11-30 01:02:52 <edcba> i just wanted some split frequency stats
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 160 2013-11-30 01:09:17 <maaku> edcba: look in your debug.log for REORG events
 161 2013-11-30 01:09:29 <maaku> (and double the number that you see)
 162 2013-11-30 01:09:45 <edcba> i don't run much clients much these days :)
 163 2013-11-30 01:10:04 <madthanu> sounds stupid to ask, but any chance (&CDataStream[0]) might ever point to an invalid address?
 164 2013-11-30 01:10:32 <sipa> madthanu: if no storage has been allocated for it, yes, i think
 165 2013-11-30 01:11:43 <madthanu> the stacktrace warren provided in #2770 occurs during a Get(LevelDB::Slice) call
 166 2013-11-30 01:12:02 <warren> madthanu: that was toffoo
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 168 2013-11-30 01:13:10 <madthanu> warren: Sorry, yes, toffo. Anyway, as rescriva also seems to observe, all the keys are iterable when you just recover that chainstate directly using LevelDB
 169 2013-11-30 01:14:18 <madthanu> madthanu: I looked into the LevelDB code, and I suspect the SIGSEGV might be happening when dereferencing the Slice provided by bitcoin-qt to LevelDB during the Get() call ......
 170 2013-11-30 01:15:01 <sipa> are you talking to yourself? :p
 171 2013-11-30 01:15:19 <madthanu> sipa: half waking up now, so forgive my messaging stupidities :)
 172 2013-11-30 01:15:46 <madthanu> but yes, that was kind of talking to myself too
 173 2013-11-30 01:17:02 <madthanu> Anyway, that Slice is obtained by using CDataStream to serialize a pair<> associated with a coin. I'm delving deeper, but if anyone already knows something related to it, that'd be great.
 174 2013-11-30 01:19:53 CheckDavid has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 175 2013-11-30 01:21:26 <sipa> madthanu: it should be impossible to end up with size 0 data, when serializing a CCoins
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 183 2013-11-30 01:29:46 <HaltingState> is there a GPU /opencl implementation of SHA512?
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 188 2013-11-30 01:32:28 <madthanu> sipa: hmmm
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 190 2013-11-30 01:42:44 <warren> I wonder if we should just release.  We know it's better than before at least.
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 193 2013-11-30 01:47:36 <madthanu_> toffoo: thanks for the extra info
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 203 2013-11-30 02:03:03 <madthanu_> toffoo: any chance you can make public all files except your wallet.dat? including your block files and stuff?
 204 2013-11-30 02:03:38 <madthanu_> toffoo: I'm not sure that's safe privacy-wise, but it'll be helpful with debugging
 205 2013-11-30 02:03:55 <dexX7> bitcoin.conf might contain some more data
 206 2013-11-30 02:04:10 <dexX7> rpc login
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 209 2013-11-30 02:04:45 <madthanu_> dexX7: private data?
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 211 2013-11-30 02:08:23 <dexX7> just delete all lines starting with "rpc" in bitcoin.conf, if there are any
 212 2013-11-30 02:08:44 <dexX7> one could use those to access your bitcoind from the outside (under some conditions)
 213 2013-11-30 02:09:07 <madthanu_> I don't think bitcoin.conf would be helpful anyway, so maybe omit the file?
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 217 2013-11-30 02:09:51 <JimJones> hey dexX7 can I pm you?
 218 2013-11-30 02:09:57 <dexX7> hm sure
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 237 2013-11-30 02:43:56 <cfields> aha
 238 2013-11-30 02:44:00 <cfields> toffoo: still around?
 239 2013-11-30 02:44:40 <warren> cfields: I'm doing another build in a few hours if you want something in it.
 240 2013-11-30 02:45:06 <cfields> i think i just found a case that the current patch misses
 241 2013-11-30 02:45:19 <warren> aha
 242 2013-11-30 02:45:19 <cfields> gmaxwell or other dev, around for a sanity check?
 243 2013-11-30 02:45:36 <gmaxwell> hm?
 244 2013-11-30 02:46:44 <cfields> gmaxwell: can you check me on a leveldb theory real quick? i'm doing up a patch
 245 2013-11-30 02:47:11 <gmaxwell> show it to me
 246 2013-11-30 02:47:21 <cfields> k, 1 min
 247 2013-11-30 02:47:32 <cfields> i didn't think you'd pong so quickly :p
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 249 2013-11-30 02:48:28 <HaltingState> sipa, ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : not enough fees
 250 2013-11-30 02:48:30 <HaltingState> what is that error?
 251 2013-11-30 02:49:16 <HaltingState> that is for unconfirmed transactions right?
 252 2013-11-30 02:49:19 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: it's pretty self explanitory! right?
 253 2013-11-30 02:49:25 <lianj> "not enough fees"
 254 2013-11-30 02:49:31 <HaltingState> its for a transaction not a block?
 255 2013-11-30 02:49:43 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: yes, also note "MemPool::accept"
 256 2013-11-30 02:49:46 <kjj> yes, for a transaction received as a transaction (rather than in a block)
 257 2013-11-30 02:50:30 <HaltingState> this is my first time going into bitcoin source; very interesting (really protoshares source but its some thing...)
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 260 2013-11-30 02:51:15 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, i can do GPU miner for protoshares; not GPU immune, but not sure if sha512 implementations are as optimized as sha256 for gpu
 261 2013-11-30 02:53:05 <diki> well sha256 has been the primary focus
 262 2013-11-30 02:53:06 <diki> so...
 263 2013-11-30 02:53:16 <diki> no love for sha512
 264 2013-11-30 02:53:20 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 265 2013-11-30 02:53:35 <diki> So yeah, optimizations are probably possible.
 266 2013-11-30 02:53:38 <HaltingState> there is only one round of sha512 vs two rounds of sha256
 267 2013-11-30 02:54:07 <diki> This might sound stupid, but don't two rounds of sha256 take around the same time as sha512?
 268 2013-11-30 02:54:13 <HaltingState> ok SHA512, 32 million passwords/second :)
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 270 2013-11-30 02:55:16 <HaltingState> 390 million passwords for per second, omg the password cracking people are on this sha512 thing
 271 2013-11-30 02:55:38 <kjj> it depends.  the sha-2 variants aren't too different.  512 has a few more rounds, and uses 64 bit values
 272 2013-11-30 02:56:01 <HaltingState> so if GPU does not have 64 bit integer ops then it might be slow
 273 2013-11-30 02:56:35 Coincidental has joined
 274 2013-11-30 02:56:43 <HaltingState> sha512 is 80 rounds, 64 bit word size; same number of rounds as sha256, hmm
 275 2013-11-30 02:57:03 <warren> HaltingState: please take this elsewhere?
 276 2013-11-30 02:57:08 <warren> this has nothing to do with bitcoin
 277 2013-11-30 02:57:22 <HaltingState> k
 278 2013-11-30 02:58:08 <cfields> gmaxwell: mm, that fix didn't work as i'd hoped. i'll re-ping in a few.
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 287 2013-11-30 03:09:16 <cfields> gmaxwell: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/1d0e54bfb76b3891468582df97c4429174063c3c
 288 2013-11-30 03:10:23 <cfields> the issue is that while it's looping through the write, it unmaps/remaps. and if there's a write that straddles a mapping, it can be split and not flushed to disk properly by osx
 289 2013-11-30 03:10:33 <cfields> robert's patch fixes that part
 290 2013-11-30 03:10:45 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 291 2013-11-30 03:10:46 <cfields> however, once the write is complete, it's not immediately unmapped
 292 2013-11-30 03:10:57 SwampTony has joined
 293 2013-11-30 03:11:09 <cfields> so at that point, the very tail may not be flushed
 294 2013-11-30 03:11:09 RoboTeddy has joined
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 296 2013-11-30 03:14:32 <madthanu> cfields: even if robert's theory were true, and that is the actual bug, wouldn't UnmapCurrentRegion() be called eventually? for example, while closing the file
 297 2013-11-30 03:15:16 <madthanu> cfields: I'm probably not understanding the case where you say robert's msync wouldn't happen
 298 2013-11-30 03:15:36 <licnep> how do nodes currently verify if a sender had enough bitcoins for a transaction? they have to go back in the blockchain until they find the latest transaction involving that address?
 299 2013-11-30 03:15:45 <madthanu> cfields: If my silly brain is being right, your current patch will convert all Put() operations in LevelDB synchronous, making things really slow
 300 2013-11-30 03:15:49 <ers35> s there any evidence that OS X 10.8, 10.9 does not flush dirty pages to disk? Do we know precisely at how that conclusion was arrived?
 301 2013-11-30 03:15:51 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 302 2013-11-30 03:15:53 <gmaxwell> licnep: this is a discussion for #bitcoin
 303 2013-11-30 03:16:01 <gmaxwell> licnep: I'll answer you there.
 304 2013-11-30 03:16:06 <licnep> ok
 305 2013-11-30 03:16:13 <cfields> madthanu: yes, that change would be painful, it's a POC rather than a real fix
 306 2013-11-30 03:16:33 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 307 2013-11-30 03:16:41 sois has joined
 308 2013-11-30 03:16:53 <cfields> madthanu: look at Close(). It forces the data to disk before an msync().
 309 2013-11-30 03:17:23 <cfields> er, Sync() rather
 310 2013-11-30 03:17:51 <madthanu> cfields: your patch would probably alleviate the bug though, whatever the real cause might be
 311 2013-11-30 03:18:07 <madthanu> cfields: I'm hoping silly bugs don't keep happening after so many msyncs :)
 312 2013-11-30 03:18:30 <phantomcircuit> what exactly are we even storing in leveldb?
 313 2013-11-30 03:18:39 <cfields> mine would cause the msync() at the end of each chunk of actual data
 314 2013-11-30 03:18:41 <phantomcircuit> it's just the txid/n UTXO right
 315 2013-11-30 03:18:44 <cfields> rather than at an arbitrary split
 316 2013-11-30 03:18:57 <cfields> so i think it could safely replace the other one
 317 2013-11-30 03:19:23 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: and an index of blocks, and optionally an index of all transactions.
 318 2013-11-30 03:19:38 Evilmax has quit ()
 319 2013-11-30 03:19:42 <madthanu> cfields: looking at Sync(), have some difficulty understanding it ... my brain really is small
 320 2013-11-30 03:20:01 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the entire database with txindex is only 300 MB
 321 2013-11-30 03:20:06 <cfields> i'm not quite sure what to do about it. Something about his fix made me uneasy, and I couldn't figure out what. I finally realized to night that it leaves the tail of the write hanging.
 322 2013-11-30 03:20:31 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it would almost be better if we did an append only journal until we hit 500 MB and then rewrite the entire file
 323 2013-11-30 03:20:32 sebicas has quit ()
 324 2013-11-30 03:20:36 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no. the txindex is 1.4 gbyte alone.
 325 2013-11-30 03:20:40 funky2 has joined
 326 2013-11-30 03:20:57 <phantomcircuit> oh i didn't see blocks/index
 327 2013-11-30 03:21:26 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: we have to support atomic batch updates, and random access.. though what you're describing is kinda how leveldb works.
 328 2013-11-30 03:21:28 <phantomcircuit> still though that's small enough that leveldbs multi layered sorted tables approach is probably overkill
 329 2013-11-30 03:21:51 JesusFreak has quit (Quit: I might be back)
 330 2013-11-30 03:22:15 <cfields> so the scenario is: append a file with new data, let it finish the Put(), then kill -9
 331 2013-11-30 03:22:30 <phantomcircuit> possibly a complete rewrite of leveldb with an eye for reliability and consistency over raw speed is in order?
 332 2013-11-30 03:22:34 <madthanu> cfields: oh right, now get it
 333 2013-11-30 03:22:37 JesusFreak has joined
 334 2013-11-30 03:22:42 <phantomcircuit> the current leveldb code is clearly geared towards raw speed at all costs
 335 2013-11-30 03:22:51 <cfields> if the last write straddles the boundary, it won't hit the newly added msync
 336 2013-11-30 03:24:05 owowo has quit (Quit: 8                         ~~ S4n1tY 1S Fut1l3 ~~                            8)
 337 2013-11-30 03:24:18 <madthanu> cfields: right ... so, on pkill -9, things get unmapped, and that might be a problem
 338 2013-11-30 03:24:20 JesusFreak has quit (Client Quit)
 339 2013-11-30 03:24:46 <cfields> that's my thought process, anyway. It's really hard to test without being able to reproduce
 340 2013-11-30 03:25:03 JesusFreak has joined
 341 2013-11-30 03:25:06 <phantomcircuit> can we just disable mmap entirely?
 342 2013-11-30 03:25:13 <madthanu> phantomcircuit: if mere mortals try to do that, they end up achieving speeds equivalent to berkeleydb :) the problem is we have only mere mortals
 343 2013-11-30 03:25:15 <cfields> anyway, toffoo's new data backs up that theory, i believe
 344 2013-11-30 03:25:27 <phantomcircuit> madthanu, uh yeah no
 345 2013-11-30 03:25:30 <madthanu> phantomcircuit: that was about a reliable leveldb that is not fast
 346 2013-11-30 03:25:47 <phantomcircuit> i've written a journal that does 250k writes/second in java easy
 347 2013-11-30 03:26:10 <cfields> hehe, java. that's cute :)
 348 2013-11-30 03:26:20 <madthanu> phantomcircuit: hmmm ... you the man. would love to check the code some day though.
 349 2013-11-30 03:26:32 <madthanu> phantomcircuit: or woman, sorry
 350 2013-11-30 03:26:39 <phantomcircuit> cfields, it was for an exchange so c/c++ was basically out of the question
 351 2013-11-30 03:26:48 <phantomcircuit> i dont have enough eyeballs to verify the code
 352 2013-11-30 03:27:12 <madthanu> cfields: see, the thing is, with "pkill -9", if not-flushing-dirty-mmap-data is a problem
 353 2013-11-30 03:27:33 <phantomcircuit> cfields, and actually the raw orderbook was faster than my nearly exact copy c++ implementation because it delayed free() indefinitely
 354 2013-11-30 03:27:35 <madthanu> cfields: that's equivalent to a system-crash scenario, and leveldb is supposed to work around that
 355 2013-11-30 03:28:12 <phantomcircuit> madthanu, leveldbs documented guarantees are wrong, it's a bug
 356 2013-11-30 03:28:19 <phantomcircuit> stuff has bugs
 357 2013-11-30 03:28:38 <madthanu> phantomcircuit: agreed
 358 2013-11-30 03:29:06 <madthanu> phantomcircuit: stupid question, but ever read an interesting research paper?
 359 2013-11-30 03:29:21 <phantomcircuit> the ceph paper is interesting
 360 2013-11-30 03:29:43 <phantomcircuit> most research papers are either indecipherable gibberish to me or really boring
 361 2013-11-30 03:29:51 enikanorov has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 362 2013-11-30 03:30:21 Neskia has joined
 363 2013-11-30 03:30:25 <madthanu> you should read the "LevelDB" part of this one: http://research.cs.wisc.edu/adsl/Publications/appconsistency-hotdep13.pdf
 364 2013-11-30 03:31:05 <phantomcircuit> why i've actually read the leveldb code
 365 2013-11-30 03:31:12 <phantomcircuit> their journal doesn't have sequence numbers
 366 2013-11-30 03:31:21 <phantomcircuit> they use a fairly weak crc32 checksum
 367 2013-11-30 03:31:35 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 368 2013-11-30 03:31:36 <phantomcircuit> the journal reading code ignores invalid records
 369 2013-11-30 03:32:01 patcon has joined
 370 2013-11-30 03:32:01 <phantomcircuit> because there are actually invalid records at the end of each journal used to preallocate so the file is contiguous on disk
 371 2013-11-30 03:32:22 <phantomcircuit> but the way it's implemented it will also skip invalid records in the middle of the journal
 372 2013-11-30 03:32:34 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 373 2013-11-30 03:32:37 <phantomcircuit> those are my major concerns
 374 2013-11-30 03:33:32 <madthanu> they don't verify checksums normally, even ... you have to be in a paranoid mode to do that
 375 2013-11-30 03:33:51 <phantomcircuit> that's just silly
 376 2013-11-30 03:34:24 <madthanu> look at the "checksums" section of http://leveldb.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/index.html
 377 2013-11-30 03:35:15 <madthanu> but beyond all that, leveldb seems to be actually better than many other software out there
 378 2013-11-30 03:35:24 <phantomcircuit> crc32 is only marginally faster than sha1
 379 2013-11-30 03:35:34 <roconnor> really?
 380 2013-11-30 03:35:40 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, yup
 381 2013-11-30 03:35:43 <roconnor> wow
 382 2013-11-30 03:35:57 <roconnor> does crc32 do error correction?
 383 2013-11-30 03:36:14 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 384 2013-11-30 03:36:17 <phantomcircuit> you mean forward error correction?
 385 2013-11-30 03:36:17 <phantomcircuit> no
 386 2013-11-30 03:36:22 <phantomcircuit> it's a checksum
 387 2013-11-30 03:37:00 imsaguy has joined
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 389 2013-11-30 03:37:50 Evilmax has joined
 390 2013-11-30 03:38:42 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, ok so it's maybe 2x faster
 391 2013-11-30 03:38:55 <gmaxwell> hm? crc32 with the right generator can be much faster than sha1 on current hardware (that has acceleration for the iscsi / sctp one)
 392 2013-11-30 03:39:34 <gmaxwell> madthanu: we run in the paranoid mode.
 393 2013-11-30 03:40:04 <sipa> phantomcircuit: can you voice your concerns about consistency on the leveldb issue tracker?
 394 2013-11-30 03:40:24 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, i just found arithmetic error in protoshares hashing; doing bitshift wrong...
 395 2013-11-30 03:40:32 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah
 396 2013-11-30 03:40:45 <cfields> we run with crc enabled, not paranoid mode though
 397 2013-11-30 03:40:45 <sipa> HaltingState: wtf is protoshares?
 398 2013-11-30 03:41:04 <madthanu> gmaxwell: oh. didn't know that.
 399 2013-11-30 03:41:20 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sha1 takes ~0.35 usec on an i3-2100 under python (it's a c module) zlic.crc32 takes ~0.1 usec and is also a cmodule
 400 2013-11-30 03:41:34 <phantomcircuit> that's ~1m iterations
 401 2013-11-30 03:41:40 <HaltingState> sipa, some weirdo altcoin with an interesting PoW function that is preorder for bitshares with is something like mastercoin but different
 402 2013-11-30 03:41:48 <madthanu> if anyone could say, this information could be pretty useful
 403 2013-11-30 03:41:55 <phantomcircuit> in practice on x86 hardware the "standard" crc32 zlib uses is only about 2x faster
 404 2013-11-30 03:42:46 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i did a bunch of testing in java for this with crc32/adler32/sha1/md5/sha256/sha512 and decided on sha1 in the end
 405 2013-11-30 03:42:53 <madthanu> in the VerifyDB call, does bitcoin-qt retrieve stuff that are old, but had not been verified by a previous invocation of VerifyDB?
 406 2013-11-30 03:42:56 <warren> HaltingState: you could have just said "handwaving"
 407 2013-11-30 03:43:03 <phantomcircuit> (i wanted to keep the maximum record size < 512 bytes)
 408 2013-11-30 03:43:37 <sipa> madthanu: yes, it only runs at startup
 409 2013-11-30 03:43:55 porquilho has joined
 410 2013-11-30 03:43:58 rnvk has joined
 411 2013-11-30 03:44:04 <sipa> madthanu: but all it does is attempt to roll the chainstate in memory back
 412 2013-11-30 03:44:08 <madthanu> sipa: no, i do not mean that. pretty long question, can i pm you?
 413 2013-11-30 03:44:14 <sipa> yes
 414 2013-11-30 03:44:28 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 415 2013-11-30 03:44:32 patcon has joined
 416 2013-11-30 03:45:01 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: "in java" well there you go. :P
 417 2013-11-30 03:45:52 funky2 has left ()
 418 2013-11-30 03:46:09 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i'll give it a try in c later but i doubt the result will be significantly different
 419 2013-11-30 03:46:30 <phantomcircuit> either was 0.35 usec when the average read is 2usec is reasonable to get to use a much better checksum
 420 2013-11-30 03:46:36 alex_fun has joined
 421 2013-11-30 03:46:47 <alex_fun> hi folks
 422 2013-11-30 03:47:08 <alex_fun> who knows is there any general crypto dev channel or forum somewhere?
 423 2013-11-30 03:47:18 <alex_fun> I tried litecoin-dev is quiet :D
 424 2013-11-30 03:48:07 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 425 2013-11-30 03:48:41 <warren> alex_fun: you are asking things that nobody cares about, and has been discussed a hundred times elsewhere.
 426 2013-11-30 03:49:14 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 427 2013-11-30 03:49:28 <alex_fun> warren yes I agree
 428 2013-11-30 03:49:34 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 429 2013-11-30 03:49:52 <alex_fun> warren have they been discussed on forums? or log  can be found somewhere
 430 2013-11-30 03:50:00 patcon has joined
 431 2013-11-30 03:50:04 <alex_fun> then I can simply learn from it :)
 432 2013-11-30 03:50:47 CodeShark has joined
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 434 2013-11-30 03:54:50 <toffoo> hi warren, my bootstrap.dat torrent just finished, should I try a fresh reindex now with -OMG6 or do you have another build coming?
 435 2013-11-30 03:55:11 <cfields> toffoo: please use the current build
 436 2013-11-30 03:55:11 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 437 2013-11-30 03:55:30 <cfields> then if that corrupts, you can try the new one
 438 2013-11-30 03:55:40 <cfields> (if you're willing to be a test-dummy, of course)
 439 2013-11-30 03:55:55 <cfields> seems you're the only one around here who can reliably reproduce
 440 2013-11-30 03:56:09 <toffoo> okie
 441 2013-11-30 03:56:20 <warren> I'll make a build with that patch.
 442 2013-11-30 03:59:46 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 443 2013-11-30 03:59:59 <madthanu> toffoo: if you would be even kinder, perhaps the entire set of data files after the corruption?
 444 2013-11-30 04:00:12 <madthanu> toffoo: instead of just the chainstate directory?
 445 2013-11-30 04:00:54 <toffoo> madthanu you mean the entire blockchain data files?
 446 2013-11-30 04:01:09 <madthanu> toffoo: yeah ... I know it's a lot
 447 2013-11-30 04:01:18 <madthanu> toffoo: but it'd be really helpful
 448 2013-11-30 04:01:35 <madthanu> toffoo: cuz I can then just run my bitcoin-qt on top of them, and see what is going through
 449 2013-11-30 04:01:41 <toffoo> well, I did it once to warren a few days ago after one of the earlier version crashes,
 450 2013-11-30 04:01:56 <toffoo> and it takes quite a while,
 451 2013-11-30 04:02:06 <sipa> metric: chainstate and blocks are independent
 452 2013-11-30 04:02:12 <madthanu> toffoo: hmmm ... is the warren version still around?
 453 2013-11-30 04:02:33 <sipa> if you have an up to date blocksdir, you shouls be able to copy toffoo's chainstate over yours and rum
 454 2013-11-30 04:02:48 <sipa> eh, madthanu
 455 2013-11-30 04:03:18 jgarzik has quit (Quit: apple apple apple)
 456 2013-11-30 04:03:28 <toffoo> madthanu probably, ask him for a link I uled a 7GB xz compressed image to his server
 457 2013-11-30 04:03:41 <madthanu> sipa: oh ... i actually don't, but i can sync up
 458 2013-11-30 04:03:49 <madthanu> toffoo: cool
 459 2013-11-30 04:04:02 <madthanu> warren: any chance you have toffoo's image still around?
 460 2013-11-30 04:04:06 <warren> I deleted it.
 461 2013-11-30 04:04:16 <warren> because the blocks are irrelevant
 462 2013-11-30 04:04:20 <toffoo> I did this when a working theory was that perhaps my blockdata from 0.7.2 (which was continually synced since 0.3) was bad in a unique way
 463 2013-11-30 04:04:37 <toffoo> I think, if you really want it,
 464 2013-11-30 04:04:59 <toffoo> it makes most sense for me to try this new build, with the clean bootstrap.dat data,
 465 2013-11-30 04:05:12 <toffoo> and if that corrupts on me I can reup everything again for you
 466 2013-11-30 04:05:12 <sipa> the block data should not matter at all
 467 2013-11-30 04:05:20 <warren> toffoo: what exactly happened before this crash?
 468 2013-11-30 04:05:32 <warren> toffoo: sleep/suspend, lost power, system crash?
 469 2013-11-30 04:05:46 <toffoo> warren which crash you referring to now, the most recent?
 470 2013-11-30 04:05:53 <warren> toffoo: the first one with OMG6
 471 2013-11-30 04:05:55 <sipa> all 0.8 does is scan for ranges of bytes in the old block files thatlook like blocks, and process them as if they were received from the network
 472 2013-11-30 04:06:01 <madthanu> the latest chainstate directory with SIGSEGV fault, the database can actually be iterated through without any problem
 473 2013-11-30 04:06:31 <madthanu> the crash happens only when you try to Get() using transactions from the block database
 474 2013-11-30 04:06:44 <madthanu> so I'm looking for the magic transaction hashes that resulted in the crash
 475 2013-11-30 04:06:49 <sipa> wait, what?
 476 2013-11-30 04:06:49 <toffoo> warren https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770#issuecomment-29543244
 477 2013-11-30 04:07:10 Antonov has joined
 478 2013-11-30 04:08:12 <madthanu> sipa, wtogami uploaded toffoo's chainstate after the most recent fault ... right?
 479 2013-11-30 04:08:33 <sipa> i haven't followed in detail
 480 2013-11-30 04:09:44 <sipa> madthanu: wait, the blocks/index database is corrupted, not the chainstate?
 481 2013-11-30 04:09:54 <madthanu> sipa: well, anyway, afaik, that chainstate directory itself doesn't seem to have a problem ...
 482 2013-11-30 04:10:31 brson has joined
 483 2013-11-30 04:10:49 <madthanu> sipa: so my *wild* guess would be something with the blocks is corrupted, and so bitcoin-qt uses the corrupted blocks to access chainstate in a stupid (NULL pointer) way
 484 2013-11-30 04:11:20 <madthanu> repeat, *wild* guess
 485 2013-11-30 04:11:39 Antonov has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 486 2013-11-30 04:12:17 SwampTony has joined
 487 2013-11-30 04:13:24 <cfields> madthanu: er, you can dump the chainstate and see what it's trying to read
 488 2013-11-30 04:13:37 <cfields> hint: it's a key, the a huge empty block
 489 2013-11-30 04:13:45 <cfields> *then
 490 2013-11-30 04:14:25 <madthanu> cfields: i can dump it, it's not readable characters, but there are keys and then there are values ...
 491 2013-11-30 04:14:36 <madthanu> are they supposed to be readable (ascii) characters?
 492 2013-11-30 04:14:58 <madthanu> ascii 0-127, that is
 493 2013-11-30 04:14:58 <sipa> madthanu: GetCoins only serialized the txid (a fixed size 32-byte encoded 256-bit numbers)
 494 2013-11-30 04:15:06 <sipa> to be oassed as key
 495 2013-11-30 04:15:24 <madthanu> sipa: yeah, true ... i'm barking on the wrong tree then
 496 2013-11-30 04:15:32 <sipa> neither keys or values are supposed to be any specific encoding
 497 2013-11-30 04:15:38 <sipa> it's all binary data
 498 2013-11-30 04:15:47 <cfields> madthanu: dump 011141.log
 499 2013-11-30 04:16:00 <madthanu> cfields: trying that
 500 2013-11-30 04:17:17 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 501 2013-11-30 04:19:06 * sipa afk
 502 2013-11-30 04:19:31 <madthanu> cfields: darn, deleted the directory, give me more time
 503 2013-11-30 04:23:47 <madthanu> cfields: errr ... it's not filled with zeros for me
 504 2013-11-30 04:23:54 <madthanu> cfields: i think
 505 2013-11-30 04:24:11 <cfields> madthanu: sorry, i was thinking of something else. That one has a key but no value
 506 2013-11-30 04:24:11 <madthanu> cfields: it could be though, since it's a log file ... it shouldn't be a bother
 507 2013-11-30 04:24:26 <madthanu> cfields: but there's something really really wrong here
 508 2013-11-30 04:24:28 <cfields> and the key is very suspicious. Notice how many null bytes at the end
 509 2013-11-30 04:24:57 <madthanu> well, that might be some valid binary representation, right?
 510 2013-11-30 04:25:35 bitspill has joined
 511 2013-11-30 04:27:29 <madthanu> cfields: I don't know ...
 512 2013-11-30 04:28:54 <cfields> madthanu: same.
 513 2013-11-30 04:29:32 jasonf__ has quit (Quit: jasonf__)
 514 2013-11-30 04:31:55 <cfields> erm, that chainstate doesn't crash for me
 515 2013-11-30 04:32:10 <cfields> (i hadn't tried it, just dumped it)
 516 2013-11-30 04:33:08 <warren> http://download1.rpmfusion.org/~warren/bitcoin-0.8.5-OMG6b/macosx/
 517 2013-11-30 04:33:23 <warren> https://github.com/litecoin-project/bitcoinomg/commits/0.8.5-OMG6b
 518 2013-11-30 04:34:21 AndrewJackson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 519 2013-11-30 04:34:31 <cfields> ok, headed off for tonight
 520 2013-11-30 04:34:41 <cfields> i'll check the forum before bed
 521 2013-11-30 04:34:48 _fronti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 524 2013-11-30 04:35:58 AndrewJackson has joined
 525 2013-11-30 04:40:08 <ryan-c> does using -txindex and -reindex re-download the blockchain?
 526 2013-11-30 04:40:14 _fronti has joined
 527 2013-11-30 04:40:27 <kjj> no
 528 2013-11-30 04:41:04 ManimalControl has joined
 529 2013-11-30 04:42:05 <ryan-c> I just restarted with it and it's showing zero blocks. I just need to wait for the disk to finish thrashing?
 530 2013-11-30 04:46:04 <Evilmax> sorry, i do not remember: what is the command (windows prompt) for start bitcoind-qt as daemon?
 531 2013-11-30 04:47:32 <ryan-c> On linux it's bitcoind -server -daemon
 532 2013-11-30 04:48:59 <toffoo> ok thanks warren I'll start reindexing bootstrap.dat with -OMG6b now...
 533 2013-11-30 04:49:40 <Evilmax> ok
 534 2013-11-30 04:49:57 <Evilmax> i do not need command line option
 535 2013-11-30 04:50:14 <Evilmax> it's sufficient set server=1 in config file
 536 2013-11-30 04:50:28 <Evilmax> it will star anyway as server
 537 2013-11-30 04:50:33 <Evilmax> start
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 558 2013-11-30 05:22:42 bitanarchy has joined
 559 2013-11-30 05:25:02 <bitanarchy> is megacoin a healthy coin?
 560 2013-11-30 05:28:27 paybitcoin1 has joined
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 562 2013-11-30 05:30:41 <alex_fun> lol
 563 2013-11-30 05:31:01 paybitcoin has joined
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 572 2013-11-30 05:41:27 <yhusha> so whats the deal with the altcoin projects that were growing popular yet each seemed to be halted at around the merkel hash point in the tut's?
 573 2013-11-30 05:43:05 <yhusha> who has had any success?
 574 2013-11-30 05:43:58 wei__ has joined
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 576 2013-11-30 05:47:24 <yhusha> I get it.. it's an f u/
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 579 2013-11-30 05:49:48 <gavinandresen> merkel hash poin in the tut's ????
 580 2013-11-30 05:49:57 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 581 2013-11-30 05:54:42 <bitanarchy> isnt megacoin the coin that is going to have zerocoin on top of it? or will they make a new coin for that?
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 594 2013-11-30 06:25:38 <cortexA9> hello
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 606 2013-11-30 06:46:32 <midnightmagic> it is possible to optimize berkeleydb *significantly* over the baseline btw. :)
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 612 2013-11-30 06:50:55 Hasimir- is now known as Hasimir
 613 2013-11-30 06:54:52 <BustyLoli-Chan> thank you all for all of your help
 614 2013-11-30 06:54:58 <BustyLoli-Chan> look what you have done to the world http://bustyloli.ch/storage/BTCgamble.php
 615 2013-11-30 06:55:48 <cfields> gavinandresen: ping
 616 2013-11-30 06:56:00 <gavinandresen> cfields: whazzup
 617 2013-11-30 06:56:18 <cfields> gavinandresen: you said you had qt5 building on osx before autotools
 618 2013-11-30 06:56:26 <cfields> does that mean you were using downloaded binaries?
 619 2013-11-30 06:56:45 <gavinandresen> cfields: uhh…. I don't remember.  Let me see if I can find out
 620 2013-11-30 06:56:52 <cfields> ok
 621 2013-11-30 06:57:12 <cfields> i have win32 building and working. trying to decide how ambitious to be for the first round
 622 2013-11-30 06:58:04 <BustyLoli-Chan> holy shit bitcoind is attacking e.e
 623 2013-11-30 06:58:05 jeewee has joined
 624 2013-11-30 06:58:14 <gavinandresen> cfields: I've got a Qt5.0.2/5.0.2/clang_64/bin directory that I think I was using and that I compiled back in July
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 627 2013-11-30 06:59:34 <cfields> gavinandresen: built from source using macx-clang, then?
 628 2013-11-30 06:59:45 <cfields> well, side-bar..
 629 2013-11-30 07:00:03 <cfields> i used 5.1.1 for win32. You oppose that for any reason?
 630 2013-11-30 07:00:20 <gavinandresen> cfields: fine by me, wumpus is the QT expert though
 631 2013-11-30 07:00:36 <gavinandresen> … he might have reasons to prefer Qt5.something
 632 2013-11-30 07:01:13 <cfields> ok
 633 2013-11-30 07:01:21 <wumpus> cfields: I always prefer the most recent qt version :p
 634 2013-11-30 07:01:28 <cfields> wumpus: ah, you're around...
 635 2013-11-30 07:01:45 <cfields> wumpus: how were you using qt5 before autotools?
 636 2013-11-30 07:01:46 arioBarzan has joined
 637 2013-11-30 07:02:00 <wumpus> having said that, we do need to keep qt4 compatibility around for a while
 638 2013-11-30 07:02:06 <wumpus> cfields: qmake
 639 2013-11-30 07:02:17 <cfields> sure, i've added an --enable-qt5
 640 2013-11-30 07:02:46 <cfields> (which will eventually become --enable-qt4, i assume)
 641 2013-11-30 07:03:23 mapppum has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 642 2013-11-30 07:03:24 <wumpus> indeed
 643 2013-11-30 07:03:24 <cfields> actually, forget that. the semantics bikeshedding can come later. I added the ability to specify :)
 644 2013-11-30 07:03:40 <warren> what OS/distro needs qt?
 645 2013-11-30 07:03:42 <cfields> wumpus: you build primarily on win32?
 646 2013-11-30 07:03:43 <warren> qt4
 647 2013-11-30 07:04:07 <wumpus> cfields: primarily Linux (Ubuntu)
 648 2013-11-30 07:04:26 <wumpus> diapolo is the win32 guy
 649 2013-11-30 07:04:29 <cfields> ah, right. diapolo (sp?) is the win32 guy?
 650 2013-11-30 07:04:32 <cfields> ok
 651 2013-11-30 07:04:33 <wumpus> yes
 652 2013-11-30 07:04:33 <Luke-Jr> cfields: shouldn't that be --with-qt5?
 653 2013-11-30 07:04:43 <wumpus> but I can do win32 builds/tests if needed
 654 2013-11-30 07:05:04 <cfields> wumpus: i'm mainly concerned with how people have acquired qt5 in the past
 655 2013-11-30 07:05:13 <cfields> since historically it's been tough, especially on osx
 656 2013-11-30 07:05:24 <wumpus> cfields: diapolo builds everything from source
 657 2013-11-30 07:05:39 <cfields> ok
 658 2013-11-30 07:06:00 <cfields> i have a gitian recipe for qt5 that will spit out a prefix, similar to how it works now. And they work in parallel
 659 2013-11-30 07:06:03 <cfields> does that suffice?
 660 2013-11-30 07:06:14 <wumpus> which is also what's recommended if you build on windows, as there are gross incompatibilities between different mingw releases
 661 2013-11-30 07:06:17 <cfields> or will i need to account for how people build themselves for win32?
 662 2013-11-30 07:06:50 <wumpus> cfields: no need to account for that, I guess the configure should work on win32 but how people get the deps is up to them
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 664 2013-11-30 07:07:41 <cfields> wumpus: well it's pretty limited for win32. i really have to assume everything, since we can't count on discovery in the environment
 665 2013-11-30 07:07:54 <cfields> i assume these days everyone builds in gitian, then stashes away the results to build against?
 666 2013-11-30 07:09:03 <wumpus> cfields: if autodetection is not possible, best to let them specify everything manually then
 667 2013-11-30 07:09:22 <cfields> wumpus: sure, it can all be specified. It just makes for a really long/ugly configure line
 668 2013-11-30 07:09:28 <cfields> but sure, no patches needed for that
 669 2013-11-30 07:09:41 <wumpus> right, someone could update the build-msw.md accordingly, but building in gitian is indeed priority one
 670 2013-11-30 07:09:49 <cfields> ok
 671 2013-11-30 07:10:26 <cfields> gavinandresen: mind seeing if you can dig out how you built? I'm happy to work up a build-from-source for osx, but i have a feeling that using the official binary dist will be an easier first step
 672 2013-11-30 07:11:12 <cfields> and wumpus: i'll make ubuntu 2nd priority after windows, since I know you're waiting on it
 673 2013-11-30 07:11:37 <wumpus> cfields: ok great!
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 675 2013-11-30 07:11:58 <gavinandresen> cfields: I'll email you my InstallationLog.txt
 676 2013-11-30 07:12:29 <cfields> gavinandresen: thanks.
 677 2013-11-30 07:14:07 <gavinandresen> cfields: … I only see .cpp files for examples, maybe that IS a binary download/install....
 678 2013-11-30 07:14:42 <cfields> gavinandresen: i know when i was poking at qt5 on osx, that was the only reasonable path
 679 2013-11-30 07:14:53 <cfields> without substantial blood/sweat/tears, anyway
 680 2013-11-30 07:17:34 <cfields> yea...
 681 2013-11-30 07:17:40 <cfields> /Users/bld.qt/bamboo-agent-home/xml-data/build-dir/DQTC-RELBUILD502LGPL-OSX106/
 682 2013-11-30 07:17:55 <cfields> unless that's you somehow, that smells like a buildbot
 683 2013-11-30 07:18:44 <cfields> I'll aim for that to begin with.
 684 2013-11-30 07:19:13 <cfields> gavinandresen: suggestions on how to discuss/debate min osx requirements in a civil+productive way?
 685 2013-11-30 07:20:49 <gavinandresen> why would it get uncivil?  are there two violently opposed viewpoints?
 686 2013-11-30 07:21:53 <gavinandresen> rough consensus seems to be OSX 10.6 64-bit as min osx requirement, unless I'm missing something
 687 2013-11-30 07:22:29 <cfields> that's fine, i thought you were prepared to push for 10.7
 688 2013-11-30 07:22:39 <gavinandresen> nope
 689 2013-11-30 07:22:41 <cfields> since 10.6 can be 32bit as well
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 691 2013-11-30 07:23:37 <wumpus> cfields: do you predict any difficulties for win 64?
 692 2013-11-30 07:23:40 <gavinandresen> we're probably going to drop support for 32 bit on all platforms, where "drop support" means "if you have a 32-bit machine, you probably can't sync the blockchain because you'll run out of memory and crash.  Sorry."
 693 2013-11-30 07:24:56 <wumpus> right, it needs a lot of virtual memory
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 695 2013-11-30 07:25:17 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: …
 696 2013-11-30 07:25:22 <cfields> er
 697 2013-11-30 07:25:25 <lianj> sorry for the stupid question, but why?
 698 2013-11-30 07:25:31 <Luke-Jr> 64-bit machine does not imply 64-bit virtual memory
 699 2013-11-30 07:25:33 <lianj> leveldb?
 700 2013-11-30 07:25:45 <wumpus> yes, probably leveldb
 701 2013-11-30 07:25:48 <cfields> i'd be opposed to that enough to help fix problem areas
 702 2013-11-30 07:25:59 <cfields> mainly for the sake of arm devices
 703 2013-11-30 07:26:07 <Luke-Jr> I run 32-bit.
 704 2013-11-30 07:26:23 <upb> not for long :)
 705 2013-11-30 07:26:26 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: okey dokey.  can you sync the chain from scratch?  How much memory?
 706 2013-11-30 07:26:29 <wumpus> leveldb makes a lot of use of mmap, though they plan to reduce that
 707 2013-11-30 07:26:39 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I've never had problems doing so. 16 GB RAM
 708 2013-11-30 07:26:47 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: go try it again now.
 709 2013-11-30 07:27:03 <Luke-Jr> network or bootstrap?
 710 2013-11-30 07:27:08 <gmaxwell> it's pretty common for vpses, not even especially limited ones to be 32 bit, just because it reduces their base memory usage when they're doing nothing.
 711 2013-11-30 07:27:19 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: network, you'll probably survive on a bootstrap
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 713 2013-11-30 07:27:37 <cfields> gavinandresen: heh, this is what i was trying to avoid...
 714 2013-11-30 07:27:47 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: then wouldn't headers-first solve it?
 715 2013-11-30 07:27:48 <cfields> i'd prefer to stay on target for osx for now..
 716 2013-11-30 07:27:49 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: we've had several reports lately of people failing a network sync on 32 bit because they run out of address space. Presumably after a block on the network makes them fetch a bunch of orphans.
 717 2013-11-30 07:27:59 <gmaxwell> yes, headers first would solve that.
 718 2013-11-30 07:28:01 <cfields> unless sweeping changes are planned for .9 ?
 719 2013-11-30 07:28:05 <gavinandresen> Patches welcome RE: telling users in advance under what conditions they shouldn't bother trying to use the software because it will crash
 720 2013-11-30 07:28:07 <gmaxwell> if thats the cause at leas.t
 721 2013-11-30 07:28:15 <wumpus> in any case when gavinandresen says 'drop support for 32 bit' he doesnt mean to actually make it impossible to build for, just to recommend against it
 722 2013-11-30 07:28:40 <wumpus> because *right now* it doesn't work very well
 723 2013-11-30 07:29:08 <gavinandresen> Right.  When I say "need 64 bit" I really mean something else.  I have no idea what that something else is....
 724 2013-11-30 07:29:33 <wumpus> with later patches to leveldb and such it may well be possible to use 32 bit happily again
 725 2013-11-30 07:29:34 <cfields> fair enough. and 64bit requirement seems more than reasonable for osx.
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 727 2013-11-30 07:30:01 <cfields> i'd have a hard time being that definitive elsewhere, but it seems reasonable in that case
 728 2013-11-30 07:30:28 <wumpus> people are very welcome to do actual memory profiling and optimization
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 731 2013-11-30 07:31:58 <cfields> ok. i'll assume 64bit for osx then. I really don't care either way, i just don't want to have to do it twice :)
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 733 2013-11-30 07:32:30 <wumpus> yes
 734 2013-11-30 07:32:58 <lianj> oh wait im confused, osx only?
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 736 2013-11-30 07:33:28 <wumpus> for the pre-built osx binaries, yes
 737 2013-11-30 07:33:48 <cfields> lianj: i'm doing qt5 stuff. .9 will use qt5 apparently. qt is no fun to build, so i'd prefer to only do it once.
 738 2013-11-30 07:34:02 <lianj> ah makes sense
 739 2013-11-30 07:34:14 <wumpus> I suppose it will remain possible building on older osx if people really want to...
 740 2013-11-30 07:35:07 <cfields> wumpus: probably not without a good bit of patching. qt is a nightmare to build.
 741 2013-11-30 07:35:20 <cfields> but if they have their own qt in place, sure
 742 2013-11-30 07:35:29 <wumpus> I'm not worried about qt, just bitcoin itself
 743 2013-11-30 07:35:44 <cfields> yea, no problem there
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 746 2013-11-30 07:37:01 <cfields> ok. i'll start pushing up PRs early and ugly, for those waiting on them
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 748 2013-11-30 07:38:01 <cfields> zzz time, nnite
 749 2013-11-30 07:38:05 <wumpus> great
 750 2013-11-30 07:38:08 <wumpus> sleep well, later
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 806 2013-11-30 09:52:31 <toffoo> reindexing v0.8.5-OMG6b from bootstrap.dat on my mac just finished, so far so good
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 810 2013-11-30 09:54:09 <madthanu> toffoo: great. some ray of hope then.
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 831 2013-11-30 10:23:37 <skinnkavaj> Whats a better way to protect from ddos than using cloudflare?
 832 2013-11-30 10:23:47 <BustyLoli-Chan> SOLO MINE :D
 833 2013-11-30 10:24:35 <BustyLoli-Chan> make every member of the pool also a host
 834 2013-11-30 10:24:55 <skinnkavaj> i am talking about running an exchange
 835 2013-11-30 10:25:01 <BustyLoli-Chan> :O
 836 2013-11-30 10:25:03 <skinnkavaj> like btc-e
 837 2013-11-30 10:25:14 Guyver2 has quit (Quit: :))
 838 2013-11-30 10:25:23 <porquilho> i have in a cell something like this a;b;c is there any function in Excel to get the 3rd element (c)?
 839 2013-11-30 10:25:32 <skinnkavaj> but they use cloudflare, so cloudflare can fuck them up
 840 2013-11-30 10:25:48 <a_meteor> skinnkavaj, getting real ddos protection
 841 2013-11-30 10:25:55 <a_meteor> but that's a lot more expensive than cloudfare
 842 2013-11-30 10:25:56 <skinnkavaj> a_meteor: what is real ddos proection?
 843 2013-11-30 10:25:57 hemry has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 844 2013-11-30 10:26:00 <BustyLoli-Chan> have you tried $C$3
 845 2013-11-30 10:26:16 <porquilho> $C$3 ?
 846 2013-11-30 10:26:20 <a_meteor> a provider that gives you an IP and tunnels clean traffic back to you, for instance
 847 2013-11-30 10:26:23 <porquilho> hmm going to try
 848 2013-11-30 10:26:42 <a_meteor> there are quite a few, but for the life of me can't remember a single one
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 850 2013-11-30 10:27:01 <skinnkavaj> a_meteor: isn't that the same as cloudflare?
 851 2013-11-30 10:27:05 <porquilho> doesnt work BustyLoli-Chan
 852 2013-11-30 10:27:31 <a_meteor> sorta, but they also do stuff at the http layer
 853 2013-11-30 10:27:40 <BustyLoli-Chan> should work
 854 2013-11-30 10:28:01 <lianj> a_meteor: cloudflare too, which is devil
 855 2013-11-30 10:28:02 <BustyLoli-Chan> if you have a formula =$C$3 will absolutely give you cell C#
 856 2013-11-30 10:28:05 <BustyLoli-Chan> * C3
 857 2013-11-30 10:28:13 <BustyLoli-Chan> even if you drag and copy it about
 858 2013-11-30 10:28:17 ircuser-6 has joined
 859 2013-11-30 10:28:48 <a_meteor> you have to trust cloudfare won't do anything evil, ever, with ssl too
 860 2013-11-30 10:29:15 <porquilho> BustyLoli-Chan that doesnt work
 861 2013-11-30 10:29:17 <a_meteor> you have to use one of their certs
 862 2013-11-30 10:29:21 <Happzz> when i buy a large amount of bitcoins - say 5 or so, would it make sense to receive them all to a single address, or ask the other party to split them into like 5 addresses or something
 863 2013-11-30 10:29:33 <Happzz> privacy-wise, fees-wise in the future when i want to send them, etc
 864 2013-11-30 10:29:37 <BustyLoli-Chan> http://i.imgur.com/ShnWs7X.png
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 866 2013-11-30 10:30:08 <a_meteor> Happzz, if you plan to not make >1 BTC purchases which would join your addresses together, I could see a privacy argument
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 869 2013-11-30 10:30:43 <porquilho> BustyLoli-Chan: Imagine I have this on a cell 'a;b;c' I want the 'c' value
 870 2013-11-30 10:30:52 <porquilho> not all 'a;b;c'
 871 2013-11-30 10:31:00 Xeno-Genesis has joined
 872 2013-11-30 10:31:34 <Happzz> a_meteor you mean <1 BTC sells?
 873 2013-11-30 10:31:43 <Happzz> i can't know what my future transactions will be.
 874 2013-11-30 10:31:51 canoon has joined
 875 2013-11-30 10:32:04 <a_meteor> well the moment you want to spend >1 BTC, your inputs would link at least two addresses together
 876 2013-11-30 10:32:06 <Happzz> however, if my future tx will join them - it could be seen together in first place if i didn't split
 877 2013-11-30 10:32:22 <Happzz> if they wont - do i benefit anything?
 878 2013-11-30 10:33:49 <a_meteor> can't wait until coinjoin is used more to solve some of this :)
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 881 2013-11-30 10:38:00 <porquilho> BustyLoli-Chan: I done it. It's Excell menu, Data -> Text to Columns
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 887 2013-11-30 10:47:47 <Happzz> gmaxwell https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.0
 888 2013-11-30 10:47:50 <BustyLoli-Chan> lol
 889 2013-11-30 10:47:56 <Happzz> gmaxwell you should get some nobelprize or something, seriously
 890 2013-11-30 10:48:03 <BustyLoli-Chan> I don't think it has to be that complex
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 892 2013-11-30 10:48:36 <Happzz> technically, i can't imagine it should be THAT complicated to make this part of bitcoin-qt, or some other tiny software
 893 2013-11-30 10:49:00 <Happzz> every small community of bitcoin users could run their own daemon to take inputs from users and do the joint work
 894 2013-11-30 10:49:16 <Happzz> "stupid" client software would send in the data. possibly even bitcoin-qt itself.
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 906 2013-11-30 11:16:14 <midnightmagic> Is there any particular reason why a bitcoind 0.8.5 on an i686 machine on one side would have block index issues on another v0.8.5 i686 machine?
 907 2013-11-30 11:17:04 <Emcy> how do you mean
 908 2013-11-30 11:17:45 <midnightmagic> I have a functional and working bitcoind on an i686 32-bit machine. I stop bitcoind. I rsync chainstate/ and blocks/ into another machine, and then start bitcoind there. It complains bitterly and demands I rebuild the block indices.
 909 2013-11-30 11:17:46 SwampTony has joined
 910 2013-11-30 11:18:14 <midnightmagic> ... the rsync failed didn't it..
 911 2013-11-30 11:18:37 <Emcy> something with the database got screwed up
 912 2013-11-30 11:18:47 <midnightmagic> yeah but how, it's the same executable.
 913 2013-11-30 11:19:00 <Emcy> u sure bitcoin was fully exited
 914 2013-11-30 11:19:10 <midnightmagic> yeah I always check ps
 915 2013-11-30 11:19:28 <Emcy> strange it should work
 916 2013-11-30 11:19:38 <midnightmagic> I agree!!
 917 2013-11-30 11:19:46 <midnightmagic> ah, i'll figure it out.
 918 2013-11-30 11:19:59 <midnightmagic> I'll let you know. I know I hate it when people come in with questions and then never update me.
 919 2013-11-30 11:20:35 <Emcy> MIGHT be bad ram on the target machine or somthing
 920 2013-11-30 11:20:48 <Emcy> i686 hardware pretty old now
 921 2013-11-30 11:21:14 <midnightmagic> I think it's all okay in that department, there's no evidence of it in anything else, it's rock-solid.
 922 2013-11-30 11:21:32 <midnightmagic> Like not even those weird crashes where you scratch your head and never find out why it happened.
 923 2013-11-30 11:21:39 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,blocks
 924 2013-11-30 11:21:40 <gribble> 272273
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 926 2013-11-30 11:23:02 <Emcy> hmm eligius spawns an 900kb block and a 350 post reddit thread about how the sky is falling
 927 2013-11-30 11:24:07 <Emcy> I love how these people complaining about muh 7tps limit are seemingly also the ones complaining about omg 15gb blockchain this is an outrage
 928 2013-11-30 11:26:00 <midnightmagic> Emcy: link?
 929 2013-11-30 11:26:38 <Emcy> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1rqexb/87898_kb_block_just_now/
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 931 2013-11-30 11:29:30 <Emcy> hmm it doesnt help that gavin weighed in with a unfiarly black and white representation of what block conservatives are saying.
 932 2013-11-30 11:31:01 <Emcy> i dont think many people espouse 1mb forever, just cautiously raising it when we can be reasonably sure it wont damage the core network, by gathering some sort of metrics for that.
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 936 2013-11-30 11:34:39 <gmaxwell> The size-conservative view isn't 1MB forever, but it's size that doesn't outpace low cost hardware / bandwidth / or demand for blocksize (e.g. don't undermine the fee market); it's an acknowledgment that scarcity of is a _nessary_ part of the systems long term design as advertised, and that there is a tradeoff with decenteralization which must be navigated cautiously, ... and that there is room for and need for alternative methods of ...
 937 2013-11-30 11:34:43 <wizkid057> i think Eligius is the only pool doing large blocks
 938 2013-11-30 11:34:45 <gmaxwell> ... transacting which are currently under-developed.
 939 2013-11-30 11:35:05 <wizkid057> everyone else is either 250 or 500KB
 940 2013-11-30 11:36:14 <Emcy> wizkid057 yeah someone pointed out eligius is more likely to spit out hugeblox because the rest arnet
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 942 2013-11-30 11:38:19 <Emcy> gmaxwell my point is people dont seem to be understanding that tradeoff. And i guess they have to be educated somehow before someone just rolls a patched bitcoin with maxblocksize = 10000000 and furtively passes it around like a cigarette in a classroom, i guess
 943 2013-11-30 11:39:21 <lianj> thanks eligius for mining 2k+ tx blocks
 944 2013-11-30 11:39:46 <Emcy> yeah, when no one else will
 945 2013-11-30 11:40:02 <lianj> why don't btw?
 946 2013-11-30 11:41:02 <Emcy> no real reason afaik. Dont seem to affect orphaning that much
 947 2013-11-30 11:41:56 <Emcy> whats the average block that comes out of p2pool?
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 951 2013-11-30 11:46:48 <wizkid057> Emcy: glad we could stir up reddit trouble, seems we're good at that
 952 2013-11-30 11:48:39 <Emcy> they stir up thier own trouble
 953 2013-11-30 11:50:00 <gmaxwell> Emcy: well it was only so big because it was stufffed full of inefficient satoshibones transactions :(
 954 2013-11-30 11:50:35 <gmaxwell> oh actually it was only 50 of them, not that bad.
 955 2013-11-30 11:50:47 <Emcy> satoshibones is a new one on me
 956 2013-11-30 11:51:53 <Emcy> i had hoped enough people would copy the dice model that the profit for each of htem would be marginal and not worth it. I didnt count on growing the pie though
 957 2013-11-30 11:52:42 <Emcy> not much we could do about it really. I wonder if its possible to whip up an angry reddit mob against the dice sites......
 958 2013-11-30 11:53:06 <gmaxwell> well the overall volume of them is still _way_ down.
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 962 2013-11-30 11:53:44 <gmaxwell> Emcy: and no, its not. people will never be angry about dice sites so long as transaction fees exist.
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 965 2013-11-30 12:00:51 <Emcy> 67kb block from ghash.io
 966 2013-11-30 12:01:08 <Emcy> pull your bloody socks up ffs
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 990 2013-11-30 12:53:30 <diki> Emcy:this is nothing
 991 2013-11-30 12:53:47 <diki> recently, luke didn't include ANY transactions in one of his blocks
 992 2013-11-30 12:54:03 <kjj> which block?
 993 2013-11-30 12:54:18 <diki> It was a while ago, probably over 1000
 994 2013-11-30 12:54:20 kill\switch has joined
 995 2013-11-30 12:54:28 <diki> if not even over 2000 blocks ago
 996 2013-11-30 12:54:43 <kjj> are you sure it was his block?
 997 2013-11-30 12:55:04 <diki> yup it said eligius
 998 2013-11-30 12:55:11 <kjj> what said eligius?
 999 2013-11-30 12:55:38 <diki> kjj:Look at this one https://blockchain.info/block-index/442924
1000 2013-11-30 12:55:44 <diki> oh oops
1001 2013-11-30 12:55:48 <diki> that's not eligius
1002 2013-11-30 12:55:53 <diki> but same thing
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1004 2013-11-30 12:57:48 <SomeoneWeird> diki, that doesn't mean that eligius mined that block
1005 2013-11-30 12:57:55 <kjj> I see 26 transactions in that block
1006 2013-11-30 12:57:58 twiceaday has joined
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1009 2013-11-30 12:58:34 <diki> kjj:Yeah, I couldn't find the eligius one
1010 2013-11-30 12:58:47 <SomeoneWeird> diki, i highly doubt it was eligius :)
1011 2013-11-30 12:58:49 <diki> SomeoneWeird:Usually the name is in the sig
1012 2013-11-30 12:58:56 <gmaxwell> why are you guys responding to diki?
1013 2013-11-30 12:58:56 <diki> but obviously anyone can change it
1014 2013-11-30 12:59:04 <diki> and impersonate someone, but doubtful
1015 2013-11-30 12:59:21 <SomeoneWeird> diki, what are you on about
1016 2013-11-30 12:59:25 <diki> by sig I mean coinbase
1017 2013-11-30 12:59:26 <kjj> ok.  just wanted to make sure you weren't expecting the relayed-by on blockchain.info to be accurate
1018 2013-11-30 12:59:49 <SomeoneWeird> gmaxwell, should we not ?
1019 2013-11-30 13:00:01 <gmaxwell> SomeoneWeird: I've had him on ignore since 2011 sometime.
1020 2013-11-30 13:00:08 <SomeoneWeird> i see.
1021 2013-11-30 13:00:34 <gmaxwell> every once in a while someone will respond without prefixes and I'll wonder for a bit if they're losing their minds.
1022 2013-11-30 13:00:59 <gmaxwell> but then they respond to something that makes it clear that they're explaining something to a crazy fool and I'll remember.
1023 2013-11-30 13:01:06 <diki> someoneweird, while blockchain.info does guess sometimes who relayed the blocks, I think it also reads the coinbase to see who mined it.
1024 2013-11-30 13:01:14 * saracen tries to think back to the few instances where he responded to diki and looked insane
1025 2013-11-30 13:01:23 <SomeoneWeird> diki, yeah uh, no.
1026 2013-11-30 13:01:31 <diki> no what?
1027 2013-11-30 13:01:36 canoon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1028 2013-11-30 13:01:40 cortexA9 has joined
1029 2013-11-30 13:01:50 <cortexA9> hello
1030 2013-11-30 13:02:18 <gmaxwell> cortexA9: hello, why is your neon unit slower than cortexa8?
1031 2013-11-30 13:02:36 <cortexA9> hehe gmaxwell
1032 2013-11-30 13:02:44 <cortexA9> idk :P
1033 2013-11-30 13:02:57 <SomeoneWeird> diki, i've never seen a pool stamp a sig in a blocks coinbase
1034 2013-11-30 13:03:18 <kjj> really?  several do
1035 2013-11-30 13:03:22 <diki> yup https://blockchain.info/tx/2b2905919aecaab9fb25684a716b7db1239911780250a59b9459735ed509d0ec
1036 2013-11-30 13:03:27 <diki> ^ btcguild
1037 2013-11-30 13:03:41 <cortexA9> why no one make a popular bitcoin website
1038 2013-11-30 13:03:41 <SomeoneWeird> oh, ok, well :)
1039 2013-11-30 13:03:49 <diki> and eligius as well https://blockchain.info/tx/71312df38bc72bfca206edf3d3faba1a952a2087cd05bd886bb55755ad585c09
1040 2013-11-30 13:03:58 <gmaxwell> SomeoneWeird: in any case, sometimes miners must produce an empty block, e.g. its so soon after the last one that they haven't had a chance to compute new txn yet. producing a empty block now doesn't prevent someone from producing a noral one 5 seconds later.
1041 2013-11-30 13:04:01 <diki> Of course that doesn't guarantee it was them
1042 2013-11-30 13:04:02 damethos has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1043 2013-11-30 13:04:11 <diki> I don't see anyone needing to impersonate etc.
1044 2013-11-30 13:04:13 <SomeoneWeird> gmaxwell, eh?
1045 2013-11-30 13:04:17 <cortexA9> we are in the dev channel
1046 2013-11-30 13:04:19 <kjj> but I don't believe that blockchain.info actually checks it.  it certainly doesn't check it for the relayed-by field
1047 2013-11-30 13:04:31 <cortexA9> make a popular website based on bitcoin
1048 2013-11-30 13:04:33 <cortexA9> hehe
1049 2013-11-30 13:04:34 <diki> SomeoneWeird:If gmaxwell is saying something about me, ignore him.
1050 2013-11-30 13:04:40 <diki> He added me on ignore, I added him.
1051 2013-11-30 13:04:49 <SomeoneWeird> diki, how about you not tell me what todo :)
1052 2013-11-30 13:05:50 <cortexA9> like a facebook but bitcoin based
1053 2013-11-30 13:06:02 skinnkavaj has joined
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1055 2013-11-30 13:06:06 skinnkavaj has joined
1056 2013-11-30 13:06:37 <cortexA9> make a good algorithm
1057 2013-11-30 13:06:50 <cortexA9> for sharing bitcoins
1058 2013-11-30 13:06:58 <cortexA9> through website
1059 2013-11-30 13:07:21 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
1060 2013-11-30 13:08:10 <saracen> These ideas don't make much sense.
1061 2013-11-30 13:08:25 <cortexA9> why not ?
1062 2013-11-30 13:08:49 <cortexA9> maybe an app for mobile
1063 2013-11-30 13:09:08 <edcba> shouldn't we have some common service for dispatching blockchain to users of 1 computer ?
1064 2013-11-30 13:09:27 <saracen> Maybe they just lack detail, but at the moment, they're just words strung together
1065 2013-11-30 13:09:29 <edcba> instead having each user having a copy of the whole blockchain ?
1066 2013-11-30 13:09:29 damethos has joined
1067 2013-11-30 13:09:37 <Luke-Jr> edcba: that's what accounts are for
1068 2013-11-30 13:09:51 <saracen> Like, I know, let's make a Pokedex, but bitcoin rather than pokemon based.
1069 2013-11-30 13:10:00 <edcba> Luke-Jr: not really
1070 2013-11-30 13:10:04 <Luke-Jr> edcba: yes really
1071 2013-11-30 13:10:10 <cortexA9> like a social network but with bitcoin address
1072 2013-11-30 13:10:11 <sipa> not really
1073 2013-11-30 13:10:14 <gmaxwell> saracen: Pokedexes. Can they be local?
1074 2013-11-30 13:10:15 <kjj> like-jr: he means a service or root-daemon that serves all users of the computer
1075 2013-11-30 13:10:22 <Luke-Jr> edcba: multiple users sharing the same computer already have to trust the administrator anyway
1076 2013-11-30 13:10:23 <kjj> with each user still having their own wallet
1077 2013-11-30 13:10:34 <cortexA9> social network nicknames
1078 2013-11-30 13:10:36 <cortexA9> not real name
1079 2013-11-30 13:10:38 bitanarchy has joined
1080 2013-11-30 13:10:39 <Luke-Jr> kjj: false sense of security
1081 2013-11-30 13:10:48 <Luke-Jr> in any case, I think Armory can do that
1082 2013-11-30 13:11:03 <gmaxwell> yea, you just need 8 gb ram per user. :(
1083 2013-11-30 13:11:03 <kjj> it isn't about security, it is about not having to maintain N copies of the blockchain
1084 2013-11-30 13:11:11 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: latest Armory says it doesn't use that much RAM
1085 2013-11-30 13:11:14 Raziel has joined
1086 2013-11-30 13:11:17 <gmaxwell> \O/
1087 2013-11-30 13:11:31 <kjj> he got it down to 6 GB?
1088 2013-11-30 13:11:32 <Luke-Jr> kjj: and accounts share the same blockchain copy
1089 2013-11-30 13:11:35 <cortexA9> like coinbook or something
1090 2013-11-30 13:11:54 <kjj> Luke-Jr: accounts in bitcoin are not even remotely sufficient for multi-user access
1091 2013-11-30 13:11:58 <Luke-Jr> https://bitcoinarmory.com/download/ "Latest version:  0.90-beta: ... Previous version:  0.88.1-beta: Note: This version uses 6GB+ RAM."
1092 2013-11-30 13:11:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: accounts aren't sutiable for multiuser.
1093 2013-11-30 13:12:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: in what way?
1094 2013-11-30 13:12:23 <saracen> gmaxwell: Local? I'm probably missing a reference to newer games, since red or blue :P
1095 2013-11-30 13:12:26 <kjj> it is something that will come naturally when the client gets split into multiple parts
1096 2013-11-30 13:12:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no access control at all. E.g. I am sysop and you trust me. kjj trusts me. But that doesn't imply you and kjj trust each other.
1097 2013-11-30 13:13:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ok, well, we *could* add access control on accounts
1098 2013-11-30 13:13:35 <edcba> but windows/linux users won't share their client
1099 2013-11-30 13:13:42 <edcba> so it doesn't matter
1100 2013-11-30 13:14:13 <edcba> you really have to separate the whole thing in 2 parts
1101 2013-11-30 13:14:21 <gmaxwell> saracen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-L3Kgc6Y7E  (funny video, worth the 4 minutes, well. esp if you have expirence with technology startups)
1102 2013-11-30 13:14:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: do you want to do the QA on access controls on accounts? :P
1103 2013-11-30 13:14:47 <diki> kjj:this was the block https://blockchain.info/block-index/442056 ^^
1104 2013-11-30 13:15:12 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if we someday seperate out the wallet functionality then it wouldn't be hard to do what he's asking for .. today, not so much.
1105 2013-11-30 13:15:40 <Luke-Jr> shrug, like I said, Armory already does the split wallet thing
1106 2013-11-30 13:15:59 <saracen> gmaxwell: Ha, yeah, remember seeing this on hackernews a while back
1107 2013-11-30 13:16:10 <kjj> yeah, 7 seconds wasn't enough time to gather new transactions
1108 2013-11-30 13:16:12 <Luke-Jr> and Electrum too, if you run a thin server layer
1109 2013-11-30 13:16:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: looks like the armory thing does, but the expense of big disk usage per instance.
1110 2013-11-30 13:16:46 <gmaxwell> (it creates its own large block index)
1111 2013-11-30 13:19:09 <saracen> moriarty: stop PMing people.
1112 2013-11-30 13:19:37 SwampTony has joined
1113 2013-11-30 13:19:49 <gmaxwell> what is he PMing with? just support or is it some scam?
1114 2013-11-30 13:20:02 <kjj> wants us to join a different channel
1115 2013-11-30 13:20:30 <saracen> Yeah, just advertising a channel
1116 2013-11-30 13:20:34 <wumpus> right, it would be great if it was possible to run different wallets on top of bitcoind, the current monolithic approach in which everyone tries to put all features in the wallet implementation simply doesn't scale
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1118 2013-11-30 13:21:05 <kjj> unfortunately, splitting doesn't appear to be easy.  every part expects to have full access to every other part
1119 2013-11-30 13:21:13 <wumpus> that's not true
1120 2013-11-30 13:21:16 <kjj> not impossible, of course, just not easy
1121 2013-11-30 13:21:42 <wumpus> it's pretty modular already, for example I could do https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3332  with some simple code movements
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1123 2013-11-30 13:22:19 <Luke-Jr> it's been done before, fwiw
1124 2013-11-30 13:22:28 <Luke-Jr> someone had a patch to use different RPC users to access different wallets
1125 2013-11-30 13:22:48 <wumpus> yes, there was even a multiwallet patch that can give every user their own wallet
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1127 2013-11-30 13:23:28 <kjj> yeah...  disabling the wallet and having multiple wallets are not even remotely the same as having a wallet API
1128 2013-11-30 13:23:32 <Luke-Jr> probably would be good if wumpus and etothepi met up and discussed what interfaces they needed to be exposed to do everything over the network ;)
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1132 2013-11-30 13:24:08 <Luke-Jr> if built around a single connection, it could use stdio for higher security
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1136 2013-11-30 13:24:30 <TD> gmaxwell: around?
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1138 2013-11-30 13:24:45 <wumpus> kjj: it's exactly the start of that
1139 2013-11-30 13:24:59 <Luke-Jr> otoh, I do like Electrum's concept of having every wallet at least be a SPV client
1140 2013-11-30 13:25:31 <wumpus> kjj: I don't really see the difficulty, someone should do it that's all
1141 2013-11-30 13:25:46 <wumpus> but it's just software engineering, not rocket science like the crypto stuff :p
1142 2013-11-30 13:26:10 <TD> gmaxwell: it's time to test p2sh support in bitcoinj. i tried it on a regtest node and the generated tx was accepted by the bitcoind, but i'm wondering if there's any other way to test it
1143 2013-11-30 13:26:29 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: and yes it may be good to discuss with him
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1145 2013-11-30 13:27:23 <Luke-Jr> TD: 3P14159f73E4gFr7JterCCQh9QjiTjiZrG
1146 2013-11-30 13:27:35 <TD> what does that address do?
1147 2013-11-30 13:27:44 <Luke-Jr> that's one of my donation addresses
1148 2013-11-30 13:29:37 <shesek> TD, heh, I was just talking with gmaxwell about p2sh support in bitcoinj like 10 minutes ago
1149 2013-11-30 13:30:15 <shesek> its really awesome that you're working on it, it'll be really helpful for a project I'm working on :)
1150 2013-11-30 13:31:00 <shesek> (and btw, if you're looking to test with something that works with p2sh addresses, I have an alpha version of a web multisig interface I'm working on that you can try it with)
1151 2013-11-30 13:31:21 tholenst has joined
1152 2013-11-30 13:31:27 <shesek> (and give me some feedback along the way ;)
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1157 2013-11-30 13:35:50 <TD> Luke-Jr: if i sent something there, would you be able to try spending it immediately? just to check that it works ok. spendijng a multisig address from bitcoind command line seems awkward
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1163 2013-11-30 13:37:56 <shesek> TD, that interface I'm working on can spend from multisig addresses, and is running on testnet
1164 2013-11-30 13:38:17 <Luke-Jr> TD: sure
1165 2013-11-30 13:39:13 <TD> shesek: actually the patch was contributed by someone. i guess i can ask him for a p2sh address where he accepts tips :)
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1168 2013-11-30 13:42:52 <shesek> yeah, I saw that, I was just checking on bitcoinj support for p2sh addresses and saw that it was sent like 3 hours ago
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1170 2013-11-30 13:43:59 <Luke-Jr> TD: anyhow, just give me an address to return the bitcoins to and I'll help test
1171 2013-11-30 13:44:14 <TD> thanks. one second ...
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1179 2013-11-30 14:09:06 <shesek> which one of you is being naughty and solves blocks on testnet without any transactions?
1180 2013-11-30 14:09:15 <shesek> that's not nice of you :)
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1182 2013-11-30 14:09:36 <edcba> maybe it's a bug
1183 2013-11-30 14:09:48 <edcba> anyway it's not a testnet for nothing :)
1184 2013-11-30 14:15:00 <TD> Luke-Jr: ok sent
1185 2013-11-30 14:15:04 <TD> sorry for the delay
1186 2013-11-30 14:15:12 <Luke-Jr> TD: where do I return it?
1187 2013-11-30 14:15:24 <TD> 13fLLox43yXYvfoZadXpGbkTUXkW8bhqut
1188 2013-11-30 14:16:07 <Luke-Jr> 7edb32d4ffd7a385b763c7a8e56b6358bcd729e747290624e18acdbe6209fc45
1189 2013-11-30 14:16:32 <TD> thanks
1190 2013-11-30 14:16:44 <Luke-Jr> np
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1194 2013-11-30 14:21:36 <gmaxwell> td: make sure you test ones with an invalid crc, testnet on mainnet, or other such nonsense which should be rejected.
1195 2013-11-30 14:22:04 <TD> i already tested trying to send across chains, which failed. CRC check is already done as part of regular addresses and that code didn't change
1196 2013-11-30 14:22:17 <TD> there are unit tests as well. so i think it's good.
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1198 2013-11-30 14:22:43 <TD> next up - got a submission for the payment protocol, but it doesn't work. need to debug why not.
1199 2013-11-30 14:22:49 <TD> lots of patches lately :)
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1210 2013-11-30 14:40:14 <midnightmagic> Emcy: I re-transferred the blockchain. The original rsync appears to not have done a perfect mirroring job. It's possible that the --delete option I skipped the first time was at fault.
1211 2013-11-30 14:41:05 <midnightmagic> Emcy: More analysis suggested that files from the *original* machine I was copying the chainstate/blocks dirs from were the reason I had stale-ish data in the datadir to begin with.
1212 2013-11-30 14:41:31 imton has quit (Quit: imton)
1213 2013-11-30 14:41:34 <midnightmagic> My assumption that rsync would clean it all up is of course flawed insofar as there may have been different filename sets between the two datasets.
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1216 2013-11-30 14:42:44 <Belxjander> midnightmagic: how large a blockchain database is that now 
1217 2013-11-30 14:42:47 <Belxjander> ???
1218 2013-11-30 14:43:05 <midnightmagic> (and without a full -c checksum verification, other factors may have contributed to datafiles not being updated.)
1219 2013-11-30 14:43:14 <Emcy> ha
1220 2013-11-30 14:43:49 <midnightmagic> Belxjander: Oh. Uh. chainstate is 293MB directory, blocks/* is 15.8GB
1221 2013-11-30 14:44:22 <Emcy> and i thought rsync was supposed to be superior
1222 2013-11-30 14:44:24 <midnightmagic> :-) And I can also confirm that bitcoind works just fine on a memory-upgraded EeePC. hehe
1223 2013-11-30 14:44:37 <midnightmagic> Emcy: It is. You just have to tell it to be superior. :)
1224 2013-11-30 14:44:45 <midnightmagic> otherwise it's a lazy sot
1225 2013-11-30 14:45:04 <Emcy> 'im not angry with you rsync im dissapointed because i know you can do better'
1226 2013-11-30 14:45:13 <midnightmagic> lol precisely
1227 2013-11-30 14:45:53 <Emcy> is that 293mb is ram too
1228 2013-11-30 14:45:56 <Emcy> for the utxo
1229 2013-11-30 14:45:56 <Belxjander> I wonder how I will get on with a PPC box I can dedicate to bitcoind
1230 2013-11-30 14:46:20 <Emcy> i used to run bitcoind on an eeepc
1231 2013-11-30 14:46:21 <Luke-Jr> you won't.
1232 2013-11-30 14:46:22 <Emcy> 2gb
1233 2013-11-30 14:46:31 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind only works in little endian
1234 2013-11-30 14:46:32 <Belxjander> or would I be better off with an AMD64X2@2.2GHz for bitcoind operations
1235 2013-11-30 14:46:43 damethos has joined
1236 2013-11-30 14:48:32 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: I've been trying to work out how to read the C++ and make a possible front-end for the OS I am using,  linking the essentials first and working from there
1237 2013-11-30 14:48:56 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: because I was thinking of putting in for normal and reverse memory read/write operations on network packets
1238 2013-11-30 14:49:17 <Belxjander> reverse read/write on anything coming in and going out over the network and normal access everywhere else
1239 2013-11-30 14:49:24 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: .. won't work
1240 2013-11-30 14:50:13 <Belxjander> what else is fixated on the LE memory formatting?
1241 2013-11-30 14:51:01 topace_ has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1242 2013-11-30 14:51:29 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: hashing memory contents
1243 2013-11-30 14:51:38 Sami345 has joined
1244 2013-11-30 14:52:11 <Belxjander> so it would need to be a full LE formatted buffer to be hashed properly ?
1245 2013-11-30 14:53:25 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: it's not just buffers
1246 2013-11-30 14:53:32 <Luke-Jr> the code does all sorts of casting tricks
1247 2013-11-30 14:53:51 <Belxjander> oh right
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1274 2013-11-30 15:23:17 <Matoking> Does anyone have a good idea of how much RAM a VPS should have if I were to run a Bitcoin daemon on it?
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1276 2013-11-30 15:24:57 <kjj> I'm running two nodes on a physical box with less than 1 GB RAM.  does that help?
1277 2013-11-30 15:25:10 rdymac has joined
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1279 2013-11-30 15:26:57 <Matoking> @kjj I guess so
1280 2013-11-30 15:27:38 <Matoking> I'm thinking of changing the Bitcoin client I use for handling payments and account balances in web applications
1281 2013-11-30 15:27:53 <Matoking> In cases where a merchant solution like Bitpay isn't enough
1282 2013-11-30 15:28:25 <kjj> oh, so you are provisioning or renting VPSs for clients and need to know how to size them?
1283 2013-11-30 15:28:32 Scrat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1284 2013-11-30 15:28:38 <Matoking> Possibly
1285 2013-11-30 15:28:46 xiangfu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1286 2013-11-30 15:28:47 <Matoking> I've been using the Bitcoin daemon until now
1287 2013-11-30 15:28:53 <Matoking> But I've been wondering if there are better solutions
1288 2013-11-30 15:29:02 xiangfu has joined
1289 2013-11-30 15:29:07 jeewee has joined
1290 2013-11-30 15:29:19 <Matoking> Blockchain.info has a JSON-RPC API that's supposedly compatible with Bitcoin-Qt functionality wise
1291 2013-11-30 15:29:28 <Matoking> But it has bugs in it
1292 2013-11-30 15:29:36 <kjj> If you are running a stripped down OS on the VPS, I'd try it with 512MB, but that may be too low, so be ready to bump up to 768 or a gig
1293 2013-11-30 15:30:01 <kjj> If you want to try other nodes, I'm not the guy to talk to.  I only run the reference client
1294 2013-11-30 15:30:26 <Matoking> The best-case scenario is if I could run something lightweight like Electrum on a VPS and use it to handle payments
1295 2013-11-30 15:33:06 asuk is now known as asuk|afk
1296 2013-11-30 15:33:13 <Matoking> Or a web wallet service with an API that's also fairly safe from hacks
1297 2013-11-30 15:33:37 <Belxjander> web wallet and safe ????
1298 2013-11-30 15:33:40 <edcba> lol
1299 2013-11-30 15:33:40 <Matoking> In a way that the wallet is encrypted
1300 2013-11-30 15:33:43 <Belxjander> are you being serious !?!?
1301 2013-11-30 15:34:02 Zarutian has joined
1302 2013-11-30 15:34:03 <Matoking> Depends on how it's done
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1304 2013-11-30 15:34:23 <edcba> i think web wallets vs local wallets is losing 40:1
1305 2013-11-30 15:34:27 <Matoking> If they were to store only the encrypted copy and all the serious stuff was done client-side
1306 2013-11-30 15:34:49 <edcba> then you can just encrypt wallet.dat and store on dropbox
1307 2013-11-30 15:34:52 <Matoking> But still, are there any web developers who have any experience with different Bitcoin wallet APIs?
1308 2013-11-30 15:36:50 <CodeShark> unless the web wallet allows you to call something external to the browser (preferably something running on dedicated hardware) to sign all transactions, I would not trust a web wallet with significant amounts
1309 2013-11-30 15:37:22 <Matoking> I'm looking for something like Bitcoin-Qt which I can access with JSON-RPC or a similar method
1310 2013-11-30 15:37:27 <Matoking> But which is much more lightweight
1311 2013-11-30 15:37:58 gritball has joined
1312 2013-11-30 15:37:59 <Matoking> Electrum would be a good possibility but I'd have to dabble with scripts instead of just running an instance 24/7 and accessing it using JSON-RPC
1313 2013-11-30 15:38:14 <CodeShark> I have a server that exposes a websockets interface - but I haven't made it public yet
1314 2013-11-30 15:40:34 <CodeShark> I'm considering writing a websockets-p2p protocol bridge
1315 2013-11-30 15:41:11 <CodeShark> then in principle you could do SPV in a browser without too much overhead
1316 2013-11-30 15:41:48 <CodeShark> but for me to consider it secure it would have to do all signing outside the browser
1317 2013-11-30 15:42:02 <Matoking> What I'm trying to do is that I can handle a Bitcoin wallet in PHP as directly as possible
1318 2013-11-30 15:42:53 <Matoking> Bitcoin-Qt has the easiest and most straightforward API, except that it's really resource-heavy
1319 2013-11-30 15:42:58 <CodeShark> the bitcoin-qt wallet design inspires all sorts of stupidity - I recommend ditching its JSON-RPC if you can
1320 2013-11-30 15:43:13 <Matoking> Yeah, therein lies the problem
1321 2013-11-30 15:43:23 <Matoking> There don't seem to be any alternatives that are any better
1322 2013-11-30 15:43:27 <Matoking> And even if there are
1323 2013-11-30 15:43:34 <Matoking> I have to trust a third party
1324 2013-11-30 15:43:42 <Matoking> That they don't screw up and lose my bitcoins
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1328 2013-11-30 15:46:36 <CodeShark> I appreciate the tremendous need for exactly what you're talking about - I'm working on something, but it's still not ready for primetime
1329 2013-11-30 15:47:33 <CodeShark> there's a serious need for a set of runtime services with a high level API that sits atop the p2p protocol
1330 2013-11-30 15:47:40 <CodeShark> the p2p protocol is too low-level for application development
1331 2013-11-30 15:47:54 <CodeShark> the p2p protocol's main reasons for existence are relay and verification
1332 2013-11-30 15:48:38 <CodeShark> I figure you can have a service that manages these functions integrated into your system environment
1333 2013-11-30 15:48:52 <Matoking> Keep me informed
1334 2013-11-30 15:48:53 <CodeShark> and then you can have a high level API atop it for application development
1335 2013-11-30 15:50:13 <pigeons> would GBT help with this purpose?
1336 2013-11-30 15:50:19 <pigeons> or too low level?
1337 2013-11-30 15:50:27 <Matoking> The best option I have is that I have my PHP script run Python scripts which in turn make Electrum do something
1338 2013-11-30 15:51:03 <danneu> CodeShark: not to mention all the surface area that needs to be polished if you're a toolkit developer
1339 2013-11-30 15:51:49 hellome has joined
1340 2013-11-30 15:52:05 <Matoking> Dropping Python scripts out of the equation would be perfect since I don't have to deal with actually executing applications in my PHP scripts
1341 2013-11-30 15:52:22 <CodeShark> the API should be language-independent
1342 2013-11-30 15:52:26 <Matoking> It just feels so hacky in a way
1343 2013-11-30 15:52:33 <Matoking> Good
1344 2013-11-30 15:53:02 <Matoking> Is there a Github repository or an account I could keep track of?
1345 2013-11-30 15:53:18 <CodeShark> CodeShark :p
1346 2013-11-30 15:53:32 <danneu> i don't think that's very hacky. unless the python api itself is a joke
1347 2013-11-30 15:54:18 <danneu> (in comparison to alternatives)
1348 2013-11-30 15:54:25 <CodeShark> the API can be based on websockets, protocol buffers, 0mq, pipes, or a number of other IPC mechanisms
1349 2013-11-30 15:54:44 <CodeShark> it should support full duplex connections, though
1350 2013-11-30 15:54:49 <CodeShark> or at the very least, pub/sub
1351 2013-11-30 15:54:57 <CodeShark> even over HTTP
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1353 2013-11-30 15:55:45 <CodeShark> we only need a specific serialization format for the sake of hashing
1354 2013-11-30 15:56:07 <Matoking> @danneu It just feels like an excess step when I would rather access the Electrum client directly instead of running external scripts
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1356 2013-11-30 15:56:52 <CodeShark> as long as we can agree on transaction and block header hashes, the data structure encodings have no bearing on the underlying protocol
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1358 2013-11-30 15:59:01 <CodeShark> for localhost connections, we can afford to be a little wasteful with the encoding if it makes client app development simpler
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1360 2013-11-30 16:00:34 <CodeShark> a p2p protocol-websockets bridge would permit clients to operate from behind firewalls - and could permit a browser-based SPV client
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1364 2013-11-30 16:01:14 <gdoteof> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3334
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1366 2013-11-30 16:02:13 <CodeShark> gdoteof: there has been talk about a client that starts with headers-only sync and gradually works up to a full node
1367 2013-11-30 16:02:27 <CodeShark> headers-only sync usually takes on the order of seconds
1368 2013-11-30 16:02:37 <CodeShark> and you'd be able to send and receive transactions immediately
1369 2013-11-30 16:03:02 <CodeShark> working up to a full node is mostly a matter of additional security and the ability to relay to peers
1370 2013-11-30 16:03:20 <CodeShark> but not so much about things like wallet usability
1371 2013-11-30 16:03:32 asuk has joined
1372 2013-11-30 16:04:07 <saracen> Just tuned in, so not sure if it's very relevant, but I believe btcd supports websocket connections where you can subscribe to notifications (and call various methods)
1373 2013-11-30 16:04:08 <gdoteof> CodeShark: oh good.  I thought it might be the case my idea is superfluous.
1374 2013-11-30 16:04:34 cyphase_mobile has joined
1375 2013-11-30 16:04:38 <CodeShark> "I assume the bitcoin-qt doesn't allow spending until the blockchain has been fully synced as a way of discouraging double spends by amateurs." - NO! the reason it doesn't allow spending is because of its full blockchain download design
1376 2013-11-30 16:05:02 <gdoteof> CodeShark: you mean it's a bug?
1377 2013-11-30 16:05:11 <CodeShark> no, I mean it's a limitation of its original design
1378 2013-11-30 16:05:19 <CodeShark> significant portions of it would have to be rewritten
1379 2013-11-30 16:06:28 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1380 2013-11-30 16:06:32 <gdoteof> oh of course
1381 2013-11-30 16:06:42 <gdoteof> it needs the hash from the "last" block in order to even sign a transaction
1382 2013-11-30 16:06:42 akrmn has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1383 2013-11-30 16:06:53 <gdoteof> ?
1384 2013-11-30 16:07:03 <gdoteof> wait that doesn't seem right either
1385 2013-11-30 16:07:32 <gdoteof> How is it possible for 'offline transactions' to be signed; yet, it somehow be a limitation.
1386 2013-11-30 16:07:38 <CodeShark> no, that's not the problem - the problem is that it cannot spend a transaction until all its inputs are connected all the way back to generation transactions
1387 2013-11-30 16:07:55 <CodeShark> it has no SPV mode
1388 2013-11-30 16:08:50 <CodeShark> and it will not accept transactions nor relay transactions until they do connect
1389 2013-11-30 16:09:12 pablog has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1390 2013-11-30 16:10:07 <CodeShark> in other words, from the start it was designed solely to do full verification
1391 2013-11-30 16:10:16 <CodeShark> and has no other security models
1392 2013-11-30 16:11:23 markus__ has joined
1393 2013-11-30 16:12:56 <CodeShark> the ideal program would support multiple security models with different levels and could transition to more secure ones over time
1394 2013-11-30 16:13:04 <gdoteof> CodeShark: yeah that makes sense to me.  but i am confused why it would need to be significantly overhauled in order to generate a transaction and push it to the network; perhaps its because of internal datastructures?
1395 2013-11-30 16:13:13 asuk is now known as asuk|afk
1396 2013-11-30 16:13:30 <gdoteof> CodeShark: yes i agree.  is bitcoinqt heading in that direction or is it going to be "pure"
1397 2013-11-30 16:13:45 <CodeShark> the jury is still open
1398 2013-11-30 16:14:25 peter110 has joined
1399 2013-11-30 16:14:29 <CodeShark> and as for pushing a transaction to the network, yes, it's simple to send transactions to other peers - but without some level of verification, this leaves the door wide open for DoS attacks
1400 2013-11-30 16:14:54 <Matoking> I've been looking over the commands that are provided in Electrum
1401 2013-11-30 16:14:57 peter110 has quit (Client Quit)
1402 2013-11-30 16:15:00 <gdoteof> CodeShark: i say the thing about being confused because my understanding is that signing a transaction is relatively simple; signing a message with a privkey essentially and then sending it to other nodes
1403 2013-11-30 16:15:23 <Matoking> What I'd like is a command that returns a defined amount of the most recent transactions with amount of confirmations, txid, whether it's received or sent, amount and etc an
1404 2013-11-30 16:15:31 <Matoking> But I can't seem to find one
1405 2013-11-30 16:15:38 <gdoteof> CodeShark: that's why i was saying be lenient with "locally made" transactions but strict about propogation
1406 2013-11-30 16:15:54 <CodeShark> gdoteof: you still have the problem of verifying received coins
1407 2013-11-30 16:16:24 <CodeShark> yes, to send a transaction all you need is a set of unspent outputs and the signing keys
1408 2013-11-30 16:17:05 <CodeShark> but bitcoin-qt won't even show you a balance until you have received at least one confirmed transaction
1409 2013-11-30 16:17:07 damethos has joined
1410 2013-11-30 16:17:55 <gdoteof> CodeShark: yeah i understand you need to verify; which is why i suggested what I guess is called the SPV model to start.  Perhaps the header method is better
1411 2013-11-30 16:18:23 <CodeShark> SPV is headers-only + merkle proofs
1412 2013-11-30 16:19:05 jgarzik has joined
1413 2013-11-30 16:19:10 <gdoteof> in any case, i don't see the real downside to allowing a user to "try" and send a transaction (other than making it easy for users to double spend)
1414 2013-11-30 16:19:27 <CodeShark> headers-only is sufficient to establish proof-of-work. and merkle trees are sufficient to establish that your transaction is in a particular block.
1415 2013-11-30 16:19:55 <CodeShark> SPV cannot prove a block is valid, though
1416 2013-11-30 16:20:38 <CodeShark> also, SPV cannot prove that a particular transaction is not in any block
1417 2013-11-30 16:21:00 <CodeShark> it can only prove presence, not absence
1418 2013-11-30 16:21:04 <gdoteof> CodeShark: so basically you are saying with SPV sending a transaction before the chain is "done" syncing doesn't even really make sense since it is so fast; so letting transactions get signed and propogated by qt that will ultimately be rejected by the network is pointless
1419 2013-11-30 16:21:56 <CodeShark> I'm saying that SPV would be sufficient criteria to establish with some amount of security that coins you have received are valid
1420 2013-11-30 16:22:22 <CodeShark> and would probably be the minimal acceptable level before a client allows you to spend them
1421 2013-11-30 16:23:46 <gdoteof> i see.  i guess i just didn't, and still really kind of don't see much benefit in enforcing rules at the client level in terms of sending transactions since the network would reject bad ones anyway
1422 2013-11-30 16:23:48 <CodeShark> furthermore, if bitcoin-qt allowed you to spend coins without performing some verification, it would be too easy to get your wallet into all sorts of funky states, for which it was not designed to be able to recover from
1423 2013-11-30 16:23:55 bedouin has quit (Quit: leaving)
1424 2013-11-30 16:24:28 delqn is now known as bedouin
1425 2013-11-30 16:24:29 sp4ke has quit (Ping timeout: 253 seconds)
1426 2013-11-30 16:24:56 <gdoteof> CodeShark: ^ that makes much sense to me and was something i was not considering
1427 2013-11-30 16:25:14 <gdoteof> the 'state' of the wallet being something other than just a list of addresses
1428 2013-11-30 16:28:15 <gdoteof> CodeShark: thanks.  what about the blocksize / resource thing?  It seems that the resitance to increasing blocksize is based around the idea of node adoption? Is that really true?
1429 2013-11-30 16:28:59 <gdoteof> i kind of get the feeling that its partially true but significantly more a matter of it not being necessary, and there being no real upside toit
1430 2013-11-30 16:29:30 <CodeShark> not really sure about that one - one thing that is certain is that it will continue to inspire heated debates :)
1431 2013-11-30 16:30:28 <CodeShark> max blocksize has not just technical implications…it also has economic implications
1432 2013-11-30 16:31:13 <gdoteof> right; i do get that.  but it seems to be that economic implications are "good" for bitcoin over all if the size is increased
1433 2013-11-30 16:31:17 <gdoteof> while the technical implications are bad
1434 2013-11-30 16:31:30 daybyter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1435 2013-11-30 16:31:57 <gdoteof> at least short term, since fees are still basically trivial awards
1436 2013-11-30 16:32:03 <sturles> It is just as difficult to increase the blocksize as it is to create more than 21 million bicoins.
1437 2013-11-30 16:32:30 <sturles> I.e. impossible is more correct than difficult.
1438 2013-11-30 16:32:46 <sturles> Yes, it could work if everyone promise to never run an older client ever again.
1439 2013-11-30 16:32:47 cyphase_mobile has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1440 2013-11-30 16:32:58 <gdoteof> sturles: i feel pretty confident to say that no, it is not that difficult
1441 2013-11-30 16:33:06 <sturles> Really?
1442 2013-11-30 16:33:30 <sturles> How do you make older client accept blocks > 1 000 000 bytes?
1443 2013-11-30 16:33:59 wei__ has joined
1444 2013-11-30 16:34:16 patcon has joined
1445 2013-11-30 16:34:26 <sturles> *crickets*
1446 2013-11-30 16:34:34 <gdoteof> sturles: oh I am not sure; i meant from a technical standpoint.  perhaps nodes would need to upgrade.. and still i am not sure
1447 2013-11-30 16:34:50 <sturles> Every single node would have to upgrade, yes.
1448 2013-11-30 16:35:07 <sturles> And if just one disagree, you will get a hard fork.
1449 2013-11-30 16:35:15 <gdoteof> lol, barely
1450 2013-11-30 16:35:28 <sturles> Just like increasing the money supply.
1451 2013-11-30 16:35:43 <sturles> Bitcoin i made to resist fundamental changes like this.
1452 2013-11-30 16:36:01 <gdoteof> yes.  but it will be much easier to convince people to increase blocksize than monetary supply :)
1453 2013-11-30 16:36:34 <sturles> 100% consensus?
1454 2013-11-30 16:37:12 <sturles> Remember: Older clients will still work.  Happily.  Older clients will just se a different version of the history after the change.
1455 2013-11-30 16:37:41 <gdoteof> sturles: i don't think that's really true like you say
1456 2013-11-30 16:37:45 rebroad has joined
1457 2013-11-30 16:37:46 <gdoteof> wasn't there a rollback and forced upgrade
1458 2013-11-30 16:38:08 <gdoteof> for miners, at elast
1459 2013-11-30 16:38:13 <gdoteof> *least
1460 2013-11-30 16:38:37 cadaver has joined
1461 2013-11-30 16:38:57 <sturles> It was in fact a forced downgrade.
1462 2013-11-30 16:39:08 <sturles> Because the new version failed to validat a block.
1463 2013-11-30 16:39:12 <sturles> It is different.
1464 2013-11-30 16:39:23 <sturles> IIrc.
1465 2013-11-30 16:39:44 <sturles> Hmm, no.  It validated a block which shouldn't have been correct.
1466 2013-11-30 16:39:58 <gdoteof> sure "down grade" but my point is that consensus was easily met
1467 2013-11-30 16:40:34 <sturles> Due to a downgrade, yes.  To avoid the horrendous consequences of a change in the protocol.
1468 2013-11-30 16:40:59 <sturles> Exactly the opposite of making an intentional backwards incompatible change in the protocol.
1469 2013-11-30 16:41:10 agnostic98 has joined
1470 2013-11-30 16:41:16 <rebroad> so.. regarding scalability... isn't it time nodes started identifying the speed/capacity of the nodes they connect to...?
1471 2013-11-30 16:41:50 <sturles> Would be nice if they did, yes.  My ADSL is soaked sometimes.  It can lag for minutes here..
1472 2013-11-30 16:42:26 <rebroad> and how would one go about designing a coin which can reward nodes for relaying?
1473 2013-11-30 16:42:55 <gdoteof> sturles: i don't think it was a genuine change in protocol though; my understanding is that it was effectively a bug in old versions of bitcoin that was "fixed" in 8.0
1474 2013-11-30 16:43:04 <rebroad> I for one already run a modified client that doesn't relay ...
1475 2013-11-30 16:43:32 <gdoteof> it seems very easy for me to believe that consensus will be met in the face of technical limitations that the network needs to continue
1476 2013-11-30 16:44:29 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1477 2013-11-30 16:44:55 patcon has joined
1478 2013-11-30 16:45:14 <sturles> gdoteof: I suggest you read up on the subject and come back when you undrstand the subject.
1479 2013-11-30 16:45:31 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1480 2013-11-30 16:46:27 <sturles> Consensus means *everyone* has to agree.  In this case an upgrade led to the validation of a block which failed with older versions.  And you remember the consequences.  So the solution was to revert to the older version.
1481 2013-11-30 16:46:39 <sturles> It was *not* to upgrade all version.
1482 2013-11-30 16:46:49 <sturles> My 0.3 client still works.
1483 2013-11-30 16:46:54 <edcba> hmm
1484 2013-11-30 16:47:07 <sturles> My 0.3 version use the same blockchain as everyone else.
1485 2013-11-30 16:47:11 <edcba> on the same blockchain ?
1486 2013-11-30 16:47:15 <sturles> Yes.
1487 2013-11-30 16:47:16 <Emcy> everything before .8 is now off on its own chain
1488 2013-11-30 16:47:22 <edcba> wasn't there a bug on that version already ?
1489 2013-11-30 16:47:29 <sturles> Emcy: No.
1490 2013-11-30 16:47:45 <edcba> when was that overflow bug ?
1491 2013-11-30 16:47:47 <Emcy> it is now
1492 2013-11-30 16:48:09 Burritoh has joined
1493 2013-11-30 16:48:13 <Emcy> there was another forking block in octobe or somthing but this time we let it happen
1494 2013-11-30 16:48:23 <edcba> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures
1495 2013-11-30 16:49:09 <sturles> Emcy: there are still 0.7 versions here: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seeds.txt
1496 2013-11-30 16:49:47 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 253 seconds)
1497 2013-11-30 16:50:06 <Emcy> that site crashed my browser :(
1498 2013-11-30 16:50:12 <edcba> ok i see
1499 2013-11-30 16:50:15 <sturles> Even 0.6.
1500 2013-11-30 16:50:28 <edcba> 0.3 can run since the consensus is made of 0.8 clients
1501 2013-11-30 16:50:42 <edcba> hmm
1502 2013-11-30 16:50:53 <Emcy> i dont think just having connections means means there is agreement on the state of the chain
1503 2013-11-30 16:51:06 <edcba> yeah so as long as older versions doesn't reject newer version it's ok
1504 2013-11-30 16:51:11 pablog has joined
1505 2013-11-30 16:51:30 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
1506 2013-11-30 16:51:37 <edcba> ie they can accept invalid blocks but not reject valid ones
1507 2013-11-30 16:52:18 <Emcy> that site destroys my browser so i cant check blockheights
1508 2013-11-30 16:52:24 <Emcy> i hope im not wrong though
1509 2013-11-30 16:53:49 ThomasV has joined
1510 2013-11-30 16:54:37 jMyles has joined
1511 2013-11-30 16:55:08 <Emcy> wow my computer is really struggling with that page wtf
1512 2013-11-30 16:55:41 <edcba> use a beter browser :p
1513 2013-11-30 16:55:54 <edcba> or buy more ram
1514 2013-11-30 16:56:06 <Emcy> tried opera and ie
1515 2013-11-30 16:56:15 <Emcy> and 16gb
1516 2013-11-30 16:56:20 <edcba> opera is fine here
1517 2013-11-30 16:56:44 <Emcy> im using the real opera
1518 2013-11-30 16:57:08 <edcba> ok i shouldn't have tried searching that page
1519 2013-11-30 16:58:05 <gdoteof> that page opened fine for me
1520 2013-11-30 16:58:07 xiangfu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1521 2013-11-30 16:58:12 <gdoteof> chrome though
1522 2013-11-30 16:58:19 <gdoteof> and it thinks it is in swahili
1523 2013-11-30 16:58:33 <edcba> anyway opera 12.x is ok on that
1524 2013-11-30 16:58:41 <edcba> if you don't search 0.3
1525 2013-11-30 16:58:58 <Emcy> yeah im doing a string search
1526 2013-11-30 16:59:09 <edcba> the highlighting suxx
1527 2013-11-30 16:59:21 <Emcy> to see if any nodes <.8 have anything like a recent block
1528 2013-11-30 16:59:23 <gdoteof> http://imgur.com/YGYT8kJ
1529 2013-11-30 16:59:23 <edcba> and they removed the ctrl+f thing
1530 2013-11-30 16:59:54 edulix has joined
1531 2013-11-30 16:59:56 <Emcy> LOL wot
1532 2013-11-30 17:00:52 <gdoteof> i see a 7.99 with recent block
1533 2013-11-30 17:01:28 markus__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1534 2013-11-30 17:01:38 <gdoteof> oh no i read that wrong
1535 2013-11-30 17:01:46 <gdoteof> sturles: what do you have to say about that?
1536 2013-11-30 17:01:59 ovidiusoft has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1537 2013-11-30 17:02:36 <gdoteof> there are no 0.3 nodes running
1538 2013-11-30 17:02:43 <gdoteof> if that is indeed a full list
1539 2013-11-30 17:03:25 <Emcy> ah you know i think Luke-Jr backports some important stuff to old branches that luddites still use somtimes
1540 2013-11-30 17:03:27 <Emcy> that might explain it
1541 2013-11-30 17:03:32 cyphase_mobile has joined
1542 2013-11-30 17:03:57 <danneu> isn't transaction broadcast just: inv->, <-getdata, tx->
1543 2013-11-30 17:03:57 <gdoteof> which is must not be the full list; i don't see my IP there and i have a full node running
1544 2013-11-30 17:04:00 <gdoteof> butno incoming ports
1545 2013-11-30 17:04:16 Nesetalis has joined
1546 2013-11-30 17:04:17 ovidiusoft has joined
1547 2013-11-30 17:04:31 <Emcy> its a list of seednodes
1548 2013-11-30 17:04:39 <Emcy> only the best
1549 2013-11-30 17:04:40 pooler has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131108162847])
1550 2013-11-30 17:04:47 <sturles> gdoteof: It is probably just nodes accepting inbound connections.
1551 2013-11-30 17:05:20 <gdoteof> sturles: yes i think it must be the case
1552 2013-11-30 17:05:34 <gdoteof> but w/r/t your assertion about old clients
1553 2013-11-30 17:05:42 <gdoteof> i am not seeing old clients with full blockchains there
1554 2013-11-30 17:06:08 <bitanarchy> just send a transaction using mulibit received by one peer but blockchain has not seen it jet
1555 2013-11-30 17:06:32 <bitanarchy> it also considers the raw transaction invalid
1556 2013-11-30 17:06:44 <gdoteof> except the 7.99s
1557 2013-11-30 17:07:02 <gdoteof> which is probably not an 'old' client
1558 2013-11-30 17:07:20 <gdoteof> 252450 seems to be where 7.x is stopping
1559 2013-11-30 17:07:41 <gdoteof> same with 6.x
1560 2013-11-30 17:10:57 <Emcy> gdoteof i think it was around 250k the second folkblock happened
1561 2013-11-30 17:11:17 <Emcy> which put old clients off into thier own universe as i understand it
1562 2013-11-30 17:11:39 <Emcy> even if there are connections, there will never be consensus
1563 2013-11-30 17:11:44 <Emcy> again as i understand it
1564 2013-11-30 17:12:34 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1568 2013-11-30 17:17:10 <JyZyXEL> can i inject a tx into a running bitcoinds mempool?
1569 2013-11-30 17:17:36 rlifchitz has quit (Quit: "I never worry about action, but only about inaction" (W. Churchill))
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1571 2013-11-30 17:19:15 <bitanarchy> how can i see the nr of transaction in multibit?
1572 2013-11-30 17:19:23 <bitanarchy> * nr of peers
1573 2013-11-30 17:22:59 COGSMITH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1574 2013-11-30 17:23:46 aoeu__ has joined
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1577 2013-11-30 17:24:37 <Gnaf> bitanarchy: https://multibit.org/en/help/v0.5/help_support_sentBitcoinFromMultibitButTheyAreStuck.html
1578 2013-11-30 17:27:47 bitanarchy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1586 2013-11-30 17:41:40 <HaltingState> where is the nonce in the midstate hash?
1587 2013-11-30 17:41:54 agnostic98 has joined
1588 2013-11-30 17:45:53 Prattler has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1589 2013-11-30 17:46:20 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1590 2013-11-30 17:46:41 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1591 2013-11-30 17:48:34 <Gnaf> HaltingState: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24336.0 and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getwork
1592 2013-11-30 17:50:10 <HaltingState> Gnaf, so i take in the midstate, read it in as 32 bit ints, flip the endianness on the ints; then that is where i am lost
1593 2013-11-30 17:50:43 Eiii has joined
1594 2013-11-30 17:50:44 <bitanarchy> I have a multibit transaction in limbo ~:-(
1595 2013-11-30 17:53:23 <shesek> TD, when do you think p2sh support would make it into an official release?
1596 2013-11-30 17:53:27 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1597 2013-11-30 17:53:46 <shesek> also, you might want to update https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/wiki/Limitations#Protocol_compliance
1598 2013-11-30 17:55:31 jMyles has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1599 2013-11-30 17:57:27 <Gnaf> HaltingsState: midstate and hash1 are now-deprecated fields in the rpc-getwork, most pools use Getblocktemplate
1600 2013-11-30 17:59:27 <bitanarchy> Gnaf: yeah, well the raw transaction format is not that of blockchain.info and my multibit client just doesnt get more than one peer ~:-)
1601 2013-11-30 17:59:34 <bitanarchy> where can you see the nr of peers anyway
1602 2013-11-30 18:01:12 kaawee has joined
1603 2013-11-30 18:02:40 bahk has joined
1604 2013-11-30 18:03:16 <kaawee> Hello! How can I track accounts (e.g. the sum of the balances of a set of bitcoin addresses) where I only have the public bitcoin addresses available, not the private keys (e.g. because the private keys are moved to cold storage)?
1605 2013-11-30 18:03:25 <TD> shesek: whenever 0.11 comes out
1606 2013-11-30 18:03:36 <TD> shesek: unless there's some super urgent reason to release, i guess that means jan or feb
1607 2013-11-30 18:03:59 <TD> shesek: the limitations page will be updated when i refresh all the docs at release time
1608 2013-11-30 18:05:55 patcon has joined
1609 2013-11-30 18:07:34 <shesek> there's no chance for an early 0.10.4 release with it, ah?
1610 2013-11-30 18:08:00 <shesek> oh, well. I guess I'll just have to be patient :)
1611 2013-11-30 18:09:45 <TD> i guess there could be, but i don't see what the hurry is. do you have something waiting for it?
1612 2013-11-30 18:10:12 <shesek> yeah, I do, a project I'm about to release in a few days
1613 2013-11-30 18:10:17 <shesek> for multisig transactions
1614 2013-11-30 18:10:55 <shesek> if its a cool project, would it persuade you? :P
1615 2013-11-30 18:11:32 <TD> heh, maybe, but the 0.10.x branch is handled by andreas (goonie) anyway. and he also manages the android wallet. so you're best off talking to him. normally we don't add features to the stable releases
1616 2013-11-30 18:12:54 ThomasV has joined
1617 2013-11-30 18:13:37 <shesek> well, I guess it wouldn't hurt trying
1618 2013-11-30 18:14:29 <shesek> how can I contact him? its still in a private alpha testing, so I would prefer contacting him privately
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1621 2013-11-30 18:14:55 cyphase_mobile has joined
1622 2013-11-30 18:17:03 mynameis has joined
1623 2013-11-30 18:17:08 <shesek> never mind, found his email on bitcointalk
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1635 2013-11-30 18:36:31 <ryan-c> wow, even overnight bitcoind isn't done reindexing
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1638 2013-11-30 18:39:48 <HaltingState> what is best way to generate random uint256? the byte array is protected so i cant write to it
1639 2013-11-30 18:42:54 agnostic98 has joined
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1643 2013-11-30 18:49:03 <Happzz> so i've read https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.0 today for the 3rd time
1644 2013-11-30 18:49:17 <Happzz> say i have a group of like 5 people who are interested in participating
1645 2013-11-30 18:49:24 <Happzz> how do we go about puting it into action?
1646 2013-11-30 18:50:25 <Happzz> on another topic - why the hell the testnet client won't connect anywhere, even when i -addnode=1.2.3.4:1234 it
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1686 2013-11-30 19:36:43 <warren> TD: ping
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1711 2013-11-30 20:03:38 <Emcy> is there any movement on the relay-first-doublespend thing to make zeroconf acceptable in some situations?
1712 2013-11-30 20:03:59 <Emcy> does replace-by-fee screw it up?
1713 2013-11-30 20:05:28 Neozonz has joined
1714 2013-11-30 20:05:34 <saracen> Anybody know how far away bitcoin-qt is from having HD wallet support?
1715 2013-11-30 20:05:49 n0n0 has joined
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1720 2013-11-30 20:07:26 <Emcy> i think its targetted for 0.9
1721 2013-11-30 20:07:56 damethos has joined
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1723 2013-11-30 20:08:10 <Burritoh> It really grinds my gears that I can't change nick while in this channel.
1724 2013-11-30 20:08:22 topace_ has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1725 2013-11-30 20:08:35 <Emcy> this channel is +r
1726 2013-11-30 20:09:01 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1727 2013-11-30 20:09:10 <Burritoh> Well, I can join without being registered.
1728 2013-11-30 20:09:15 <Burritoh> Just not talk.
1729 2013-11-30 20:09:18 <Burritoh> Why not change nicks too?
1730 2013-11-30 20:09:33 <Burritoh> That's a silly implementation of the mode. I blame Freenode. :V
1731 2013-11-30 20:09:37 Emcy is now known as mehlol
1732 2013-11-30 20:09:45 Burritoh is now known as Burritoh000
1733 2013-11-30 20:09:47 Burritoh000 is now known as Burritoh
1734 2013-11-30 20:09:54 rnvk has joined
1735 2013-11-30 20:09:54 <mehlol> welp
1736 2013-11-30 20:10:05 <Burritoh> I guess it's only banned for people who aren't logged in yet.
1737 2013-11-30 20:10:05 <mehlol> dont see a problem
1738 2013-11-30 20:10:20 <Burritoh> »» Burritoh #bitcoin-dev :Cannot change nickname while banned on channel
1739 2013-11-30 20:10:32 <mehlol> ur banned lol
1740 2013-11-30 20:10:38 <Burritoh> I don't appear to be!
1741 2013-11-30 20:10:48 * Burritoh gestures around to indicate his existance
1742 2013-11-30 20:10:52 <Burritoh> existence*
1743 2013-11-30 20:12:05 <mehlol> "300mbits" wifi sums down to 4mb/s in practice
1744 2013-11-30 20:12:08 <shesek> Burritoh, this is so annoying
1745 2013-11-30 20:12:16 <mehlol> why is this legal, how is this allowed
1746 2013-11-30 20:12:28 <shesek> when my internet connection dies and I re-connect with another one, I have to leave like six channels before I can change my nickname back
1747 2013-11-30 20:12:35 <shesek> * with another nick
1748 2013-11-30 20:12:35 eoss has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1749 2013-11-30 20:12:37 <Burritoh> :/
1750 2013-11-30 20:13:11 Burritoh is now known as BurritoBazooka
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1752 2013-11-30 20:13:33 BurritoBazooka is now known as Burritoh
1753 2013-11-30 20:14:24 gdoteof has joined
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1755 2013-11-30 20:14:41 <shesek> I think its because people change their nicknames as a way to send messages
1756 2013-11-30 20:14:47 c0rw1n has joined
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1759 2013-11-30 20:18:48 Goonie has joined
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1761 2013-11-30 20:19:49 <Goonie> How can I find out the pubkey of one of my addresses in bitcoin-qt, e.g. by using the debug console?
1762 2013-11-30 20:20:29 stevedekorte has joined
1763 2013-11-30 20:25:41 <shesek> Goonie, validateaddress <btc-address>
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1783 2013-11-30 20:39:53 <Goonie> shesek: thanks
1784 2013-11-30 20:40:31 DLN-001 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1785 2013-11-30 20:40:37 <Goonie> shesek: do you have jabber?
1786 2013-11-30 20:40:56 <shesek> nope
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1795 2013-11-30 20:46:10 <eoss> Are there any risks in running older versions of bitcoin wallet?
1796 2013-11-30 20:47:41 agnostic98 has joined
1797 2013-11-30 20:48:56 CheckDavid has joined
1798 2013-11-30 20:50:44 <weex> eoss: there are, you should run the latest
1799 2013-11-30 20:51:04 <warren> eoss: crashes mainly
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1804 2013-11-30 20:51:24 <eoss> im running bitcoin 0.6.2
1805 2013-11-30 20:52:04 <eoss> I even had an older version that didn't even connect to the network
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1813 2013-11-30 21:00:29 <jgarzik> eoss, fork risks + occasional inability to keep up with the network
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1816 2013-11-30 21:01:36 <Luke-Jr> eoss: if you really need to avoid the latest, we have stable branches, but there really shouldn't be any reason not to use latest anymore (unless you use Mac i guess)
1817 2013-11-30 21:04:21 <warren> Luke-Jr: please stop pretending that "stable" is official
1818 2013-11-30 21:05:44 <Luke-Jr> warren: it's just as official as github master
1819 2013-11-30 21:06:06 <warren> Luke-Jr: then lobby to make stable a branch in github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin ?
1820 2013-11-30 21:06:18 <Luke-Jr> warren: why waste the time on shedpainting?
1821 2013-11-30 21:06:35 stevedekorte has quit (Quit: stevedekorte)
1822 2013-11-30 21:08:19 <Luke-Jr> and unnecessary politics
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1827 2013-11-30 21:14:17 <jgarzik> RE web wallets on bitcoin.org
1828 2013-11-30 21:14:46 <jgarzik> We should include a full list of web wallets, including all the hacked ones.  Insert a large "X" graphics, superimposed over each hacked site.
1829 2013-11-30 21:15:21 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1830 2013-11-30 21:16:25 <warren> jgarzik: what about the ones that were temporarily hacked
1831 2013-11-30 21:16:40 <warren> or partially
1832 2013-11-30 21:16:42 <Luke-Jr> ^
1833 2013-11-30 21:16:51 <Happzz> they are doomed, too
1834 2013-11-30 21:17:09 <Luke-Jr> and if so, why the double standard? we'd need to X software with serious vulnerabilities too..
1835 2013-11-30 21:17:13 <warren> jgarzik: or the one who took money from a thief...
1836 2013-11-30 21:19:15 pablog has joined
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1840 2013-11-30 21:27:00 <andytoshi> i think actually putting short blurbs beside each one would be better :P
1841 2013-11-30 21:27:10 <andytoshi> make the user scroll to find a 'working' one
1842 2013-11-30 21:28:21 <dansmith_btc> Hi, I understand that gitian is used to build bitcoind on unix but how is building done on windows?
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1844 2013-11-30 21:32:14 <Luke-Jr> dansmith_btc: it's generally not
1845 2013-11-30 21:32:25 <Luke-Jr> dansmith_btc: Windows binaries are built from Ubuntu as well
1846 2013-11-30 21:34:43 <maaku> dansmith_btc: using a VM running unix
1847 2013-11-30 21:35:07 AusBitBank has joined
1848 2013-11-30 21:35:28 <dansmith_btc> got it - cross-compilation. thanks
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1853 2013-11-30 21:46:06 tyr1ck has joined
1854 2013-11-30 21:46:24 <tyr1ck> are block transferred in json format to and from the network?
1855 2013-11-30 21:46:33 <tyr1ck> I ask because of the following link : http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000000000001e8d6829a8a21adc5d38d0a473b144b6765798e61f98bd1d
1856 2013-11-30 21:47:01 <stevedekorte> tyr1ck: no, it's a binary format
1857 2013-11-30 21:47:56 <tyr1ck> any clue why block explorer uses that format for the "raw block"?
1858 2013-11-30 21:47:58 <stevedekorte> tyr1ck: but you can connect to the client and talk json
1859 2013-11-30 21:48:34 <tyr1ck> So I could actually communicate with the client with the above json format?
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1862 2013-11-30 21:48:53 <stevedekorte> tyr1ck: you'd have to look at the spec for that
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1864 2013-11-30 21:49:11 <tyr1ck> you know where in the doc I can find that?
1865 2013-11-30 21:49:34 <stevedekorte> tyr1ck: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
1866 2013-11-30 21:50:14 <jgarzik> tyr1ck, blockexplorer is showing you the format used by bitcoind for local control and local queries
1867 2013-11-30 21:50:34 <jgarzik> tyr1ck, the network format is binary, much more compact
1868 2013-11-30 21:51:06 <jgarzik> tyr1ck, local format is easier to manipulate with common languages.  python, javascript, etc. all speak JSON.
1869 2013-11-30 21:51:26 <tyr1ck> ya, I am a java dev
1870 2013-11-30 21:51:36 <tyr1ck> so I got excited when I saw all this in json format
1871 2013-11-30 21:52:52 <jgarzik> tyr1ck, you have found bitcoinj, then?
1872 2013-11-30 21:53:58 <tyr1ck> yes, I exchanged a few emails with the lead dev and sorted through the code a bit... I might check it out after doing some investigation on my own end
1873 2013-11-30 21:54:13 <tyr1ck> I wasn't very happy with the project though.
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1886 2013-11-30 22:22:00 <tyr1ck> hm, the merkle tree uses double sha256 right?
1887 2013-11-30 22:22:36 <Luke-Jr> yes
1888 2013-11-30 22:22:58 <tyr1ck> http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000000000001e8d6829a8a21adc5d38d0a473b144b6765798e61f98bd1d
1889 2013-11-30 22:23:04 <tyr1ck> let's take that block for an example
1890 2013-11-30 22:23:20 <tyr1ck> 2b12fcf1b09288fcaff797d71e950e71ae42b91e8bdb2304758dfcffc2b620e3 is the merkle root
1891 2013-11-30 22:23:45 <tyr1ck> but if I double sha256 the concatenated previous elements... I don't result in the root
1892 2013-11-30 22:24:46 <tyr1ck> That is, dsha256("0d0eb1b4c4b49fd27d100e9cce555d4110594661b1b8ac05a4b8879c84959bd4" +  "bfae954bdb9653ceba3721e85a122fba3a585c5762b5ca5abe117b30c36c995e") doesn't give me the root
1893 2013-11-30 22:25:03 <tyr1ck> I must not be doing this correctly?
1894 2013-11-30 22:29:12 <Luke-Jr> must not.
1895 2013-11-30 22:29:23 <Luke-Jr> I hope you're not literally using ASCII hex
1896 2013-11-30 22:30:20 <tyr1ck> I am
1897 2013-11-30 22:30:42 CriticalH has joined
1898 2013-11-30 22:31:37 <CheckDavid> I heard that bitcoin could have a backdoor in it's encryption. Is this a real threat ?
1899 2013-11-30 22:33:17 <tyr1ck> any documentations on how this is specifically done
1900 2013-11-30 22:33:25 <tyr1ck> everything I have read suggested this
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1902 2013-11-30 22:35:03 <Ryan52> tyr1ck: convert hex to binary first
1903 2013-11-30 22:36:10 <Ryan52> tyr1ck: see "How to build merkle root" on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate
1904 2013-11-30 22:36:17 <tyr1ck> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Merkle_Trees
1905 2013-11-30 22:36:30 <tyr1ck> okay, I'll check that out
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1908 2013-11-30 22:41:11 <Ryan52> tyr1ck: Let me know if you get that working, I'm about to test my own merkle root implementation so it would be nice to have a test case verified by somebody else.
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1910 2013-11-30 22:41:33 * Ryan52 wasn't aware that the mrkl_tree info from blockexplorer.com would provide it so clearly.
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1912 2013-11-30 22:44:34 <Ryan52> tyr1ck: Also, Luke-Jr has made a nice simple reference implementation: https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/libblkmaker/source/8d1946930153a418d9d7394f362a7cc0de77040b:blkmaker.c
1913 2013-11-30 22:45:01 <jgarzik> tyr1ck, Calculating merkle root, in python, given a list of transaction ids (hashes): https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinlib/blob/master/bitcoin/core.py#L261
1914 2013-11-30 22:45:04 go1111111 has joined
1915 2013-11-30 22:45:17 <jgarzik> tyr1ck, surely bitcoinj has merkle root calculation for Java
1916 2013-11-30 22:48:39 Nesetalis has joined
1917 2013-11-30 22:50:07 * Ryan52 was not able to find an implementation in PHP :(
1918 2013-11-30 22:50:53 <Ryan52> I probably wouldn't trust it if I did, though. The only JS implementation of mining that I found, turned out to have a totally broken SHA checksum, polluting whatever pool it was connected to with bad data.
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1926 2013-11-30 22:59:44 <dhw> I am trying to use gitian to compile bitcoin off my own repo. The normal repo works fine, compiles with out any errors. When I fork the repo and try changing a couple things gitan keeps throwing "no rule to make target libleveldb.a" has anyone run into this?
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1940 2013-11-30 23:10:59 <tyr1ck> btw, I am not trying to calculate the merkle tree.. I am simply trying to verify one in the block example I gave
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1942 2013-11-30 23:11:28 <tyr1ck> The interior nodes are hashes of the concenation of the two child hashes.
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1944 2013-11-30 23:11:38 <tyr1ck> this is essentially what I am reading everywhere
1945 2013-11-30 23:13:12 <tyr1ck> since the tree is give, I would think you should simply be able to verify the merkle root with "hashes of the concatenation of the two child hashes"
1946 2013-11-30 23:13:24 <tyr1ck> which are hex...
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1953 2013-11-30 23:24:15 <Ryan52> tyr1ck: so the bit flipping made me a bit dizzy, but I managed to get the merkle root from the given block's transactions.
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