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7 2013-12-01 00:15:54 <HaltingState> how do i get data and target for an already mined block
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11 2013-12-01 00:19:16 <sipa> the target is encoded in the block header itself
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13 2013-12-01 00:19:16 <HaltingState> sipa, how do i get block header
14 2013-12-01 00:19:16 <sipa> not sure what you mean by data
15 2013-12-01 00:19:16 <sipa> you look at it?
16 2013-12-01 00:19:16 <HaltingState> atomos@maslow:~/ProtoShares/src$ ./bitcoind getwork
17 2013-12-01 00:19:16 <HaltingState> {
18 2013-12-01 00:19:16 <HaltingState> "data" : "0200000078e0de69ece3179b587f890f3fdf7940177d997b197f59427afb2db27b000000957c69ce4c19ed8c960f6e1c1c63e197205c4196f147e6db87176f90c63fdc6ae57e9a52b8b1001e000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000c1de12e2170000000000000000000000",
19 2013-12-01 00:19:16 <HaltingState> "target" : "000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000b8b1000000"
20 2013-12-01 00:19:16 <HaltingState> }
21 2013-12-01 00:19:16 <sipa> what are you trying to do?
22 2013-12-01 00:19:16 <HaltingState> i have that and i want that same info for a previously mined block
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25 2013-12-01 00:21:28 <sipa> getblock will give all information in a block header
26 2013-12-01 00:21:28 <HaltingState> i am trying to extract those values from blockchain so i can test miner hash thing on header; its for an altcoin with weird hash function and testnet is broken for it
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28 2013-12-01 00:21:28 <sipa> rught
29 2013-12-01 00:21:28 <sipa> right
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31 2013-12-01 00:21:28 <HaltingState> sipa, what is best way to go from "getblock" response to the target+ "data" thing?
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34 2013-12-01 00:23:40 <kermit> how do i repair a wallet that causes bitcoin-qt to crash with "ListAccountCreditDebit() : cannot create DB cursor"?
35 2013-12-01 00:23:40 <Ryan52> sipa: where in the block header is the difficulty/target?
36 2013-12-01 00:23:40 <HaltingState> Ry4an, its called "bits" but its only 4 bytes so dont know what it means
37 2013-12-01 00:25:52 <Ryan52> The simple block headers I'm building don't include it, but I only have a partial implementation so far.
38 2013-12-01 00:28:06 <HaltingState> sipa, how does "bits" encode target?
39 2013-12-01 00:28:06 * Ryan52 will solve that curiosity when he gets to that part, surely.
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59 2013-12-01 00:43:53 <hno> HaltingState, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
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61 2013-12-01 00:45:19 <HaltingState> thx
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75 2013-12-01 01:19:36 <comboy> bitcoind getbalance and listaccounts seems to be displaying number of bitcoins received, not received-spent, is this a bug or a feature?
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77 2013-12-01 01:24:29 <kjj> spends aren't tagged to an account unless you specify one
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79 2013-12-01 01:26:08 <comboy> kjj: what do you mean by tagged and how do I specify? balance sounds to me like bitcoins received - bitcoin sent, is it a problem of my understanding it this way?
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83 2013-12-01 01:26:49 <kjj> getbalance is the sum of the spendable UTXOs that it can provide the keys to
84 2013-12-01 01:27:24 <kjj> listaccounts is the values of your local accounting names (your "accounts")
85 2013-12-01 01:27:30 freewil has joined
86 2013-12-01 01:28:08 <comboy> list accounts seems to include balance, if I already spent my coins from associated with a given they are no more spendable, right?
87 2013-12-01 01:28:37 <kjj> spends come from the default account unless you specify a different account
88 2013-12-01 01:29:27 <comboy> kjj, I checked say on blockchain.info that coins were actually spent from the given address
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90 2013-12-01 01:29:34 <kjj> attaching an account to an address just means that when a new transaction comes in to that address, that account gets credited.
91 2013-12-01 01:29:44 imton has joined
92 2013-12-01 01:29:45 <kjj> there is no fucking "from address"
93 2013-12-01 01:30:24 Dennismckinnon has joined
94 2013-12-01 01:30:28 <kjj> after a transaction comes in, that transaction is not bound to an account or an address
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97 2013-12-01 01:31:56 <kjj> your accounts are a purely local bookkeeping measure. accounts get credited when a transaction comes in to a tagged address. they get debited when a spend is made that specifically requests that it be tagged to that account
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99 2013-12-01 01:33:07 <kjj> you can also use the "move" RPC command which reduces one account and increase another.
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102 2013-12-01 01:33:48 <comboy> yeah, but if you send a transaction, you sign it with given address private key right? so there is a way to tell what coins are left on that address, isn't there?
103 2013-12-01 01:34:19 <kjj> you sign it with a key, yes. and from that, you can often tell what the last address to see the coins was
104 2013-12-01 01:34:29 <kjj> but that is NOT a "from address" and has nothing to do with accounts
105 2013-12-01 01:34:41 <comboy> often?
106 2013-12-01 01:35:03 <kjj> like I already said twice, accounts are credited when the transaction comes in, and debited when the user specifies
107 2013-12-01 01:35:29 <kjj> transactions go to scripts. the scripts are often, but not always, associated with an address
108 2013-12-01 01:35:37 <comboy> ok I get it, coins are always send to address, and there's no from, I'm just trying to say that from dumb user perspective which I am, "balance" sound like coins available on that address, not just coins received
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110 2013-12-01 01:36:21 <kjj> the wallet does not present balances by address. it presents balances by wallet, and by account
111 2013-12-01 01:36:51 <comboy> I'm talking about simple scenario when each account has only one address associated
112 2013-12-01 01:36:54 <kjj> so whatever you see on some website is fine, but it has no relationship to anything that your node does
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117 2013-12-01 01:37:46 <kjj> transctions redeem prior transactions. the node does not keep track of them. it just grabs what it needs and goes
118 2013-12-01 01:38:26 <kjj> if it happens to grab a transaction that previously came in to an address attached to account "B", that does not mean that account "B" gets docked when you spend.
119 2013-12-01 01:39:03 <kjj> accounts get debited when you specify that the account be used for the spend, and that specification has absolutely no bearing on which coins it uses for the new transaction
120 2013-12-01 01:41:11 <comboy> can you give me an example of a script whuch would stop you from telling address balance after that transaction?
121 2013-12-01 01:41:39 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
122 2013-12-01 01:41:55 <comboy> or are you trying to tell me that yes it's always possible to tell given address balance it's just that default bitcoin client doesn't care about tracking it?
123 2013-12-01 01:42:08 <kjj> generation transactions are the most obvious examples
124 2013-12-01 01:42:38 <comboy> anything else?
125 2013-12-01 01:42:42 <kjj> but there are also puzzle transactions that are redeemed by solving them
126 2013-12-01 01:42:54 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell
127 2013-12-01 01:42:55 <kjj> and multisig gets sketchy
128 2013-12-01 01:42:58 <Diablo-D3> small question
129 2013-12-01 01:43:18 <kjj> but in addition to that, the client doesn't care about tracking them
130 2013-12-01 01:43:18 <Diablo-D3> when is bitcoin going to get a rate limiter for upstream
131 2013-12-01 01:43:34 agnostic98 has joined
132 2013-12-01 01:44:03 <kjj> Diablo-D3: your box doesn't have tc?
133 2013-12-01 01:44:26 <Diablo-D3> kjj: its unreliable when you have multiple machines
134 2013-12-01 01:44:38 <Diablo-D3> and my router isnt smart enough to handle it per port
135 2013-12-01 01:45:17 <kjj> get a smarter router. :) like a linux box running tc
136 2013-12-01 01:45:19 <comboy> kjj, if you don't mind taking some more of your time, how does multisig stops you from telling address balance after transaction?
137 2013-12-01 01:45:24 <gmaxwell> kjj: recently the behavior has been really bad due to multiple syncing nodes. My tor only laptop has been ending up pushing out 800kbit/sec and saturating my upstream.
138 2013-12-01 01:45:35 <gavinandresen> comboy: if you want address to == account, then that is easy. Just name the account the same as the address, and ALWAYS use spendfrom. Oh, and ALWAYS perform a 'move' so if you have to pay a fee it is debited from the account instead of from the '' account.
139 2013-12-01 01:45:56 <gavinandresen> ⦠and don't use bitcoin-qt at all, it doesn't understand accounts....
140 2013-12-01 01:46:16 <Diablo-D3> kjj: Im not switching out my router =P
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142 2013-12-01 01:46:33 <kjj> comboy: if it is p2sh multisig, you can keep track
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144 2013-12-01 01:47:11 <gavinandresen> Oh, and don't look at a blockexplorer site, because it will have a completely different idea of address balances. Because spendfrom doesn't actually spend from an address....
145 2013-12-01 01:47:15 <comboy> gavinandresen: I mostly use bitcoin-qt, having it in mind I thought it could be nice addition to have balances the "Receive" tab and started wondering around from there
146 2013-12-01 01:47:38 <gavinandresen> Oh, and never have any coinbase coin generation transactions
147 2013-12-01 01:47:45 one_zero has joined
148 2013-12-01 01:47:48 <gavinandresen> ⦠and probably a few more things I'm forgetting.
149 2013-12-01 01:47:54 <kjj> the interaction of block websites and stock client accounts is horrible. burns up so much time here and on the forums
150 2013-12-01 01:48:03 <gavinandresen> Ok, I changed my mind, don't name accounts after addresses, you'll just confuse yourself more.
151 2013-12-01 01:48:38 <comboy> :)
152 2013-12-01 01:48:45 <kjj> gavinandresen: it will work out as long as you track down the change and raw-spend it back to the account address
153 2013-12-01 01:49:46 <gavinandresen> kjj: if you're going to that much trouble, better to use listunspent/createrawtransaction/etc
154 2013-12-01 01:49:47 <kjj> Diablo-D3: it wasn't a very serious suggestion. but once you flex the power of a linux box for your router, you'll never go back
155 2013-12-01 01:49:53 <comboy> well I guess it would be cool from user perspective to have accounts working more like subwallets, especially with coin control
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157 2013-12-01 01:50:16 <kjj> comboy: that's what people tend to expect them to be, but that's not what they really do
158 2013-12-01 01:50:29 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, it would be so nice if the accounts feature just went away
159 2013-12-01 01:50:32 <kjj> and that shear causes plenty of confusion
160 2013-12-01 01:50:53 <Diablo-D3> kjj: a) my router runs linux, b) the router before that ran linux
161 2013-12-01 01:51:22 <kjj> gmaxwell: do you happen to have the txid of a puzzle transaction that I can file away for reference?
162 2013-12-01 01:51:29 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, tc is pretty terrible
163 2013-12-01 01:51:32 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
164 2013-12-01 01:51:45 <phantomcircuit> i've tried using it before to limit downlink and it just completely fails
165 2013-12-01 01:51:51 <kjj> bit your tongue! tc rocks, if you know how to use it
166 2013-12-01 01:51:52 <gmaxwell> kjj: how about all the txn related to this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293382.0
167 2013-12-01 01:52:00 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: yes. yes it is.
168 2013-12-01 01:52:00 <Diablo-D3> the only successful rate limiting Ive ever seen has been bittorrent in the client.
169 2013-12-01 01:52:02 <kjj> you can't limit downlink. that's just silly
170 2013-12-01 01:52:04 <comboy> I think I found some: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Transaction_puzzle
171 2013-12-01 01:52:09 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: erm, you cant limit downstreeam
172 2013-12-01 01:52:18 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: you have to do that on the ISP side
173 2013-12-01 01:52:28 <phantomcircuit> of course you can it just requires artifically shrinking the window and measuring latency
174 2013-12-01 01:52:37 <kjj> gmaxwell: heh, I meant ones that were meant to be solved
175 2013-12-01 01:52:48 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: rate limiting downstream means you essentially drop packets you've already downloaded
176 2013-12-01 01:52:52 <gmaxwell> kjj: the last of those has been solved several times now
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179 2013-12-01 01:53:46 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, not necessarily... you can also shrink the window size transparently
180 2013-12-01 01:54:20 <phantomcircuit> iirc that is how most traffic shaping of tcp connections actually works
181 2013-12-01 01:54:32 <phantomcircuit> and also why it basically doesn't work against the newer UDP bittorrent protocol
182 2013-12-01 01:54:50 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: which your ISP just completely ignores because it has several megabytes of buffers dedicated just to make your life suck
183 2013-12-01 01:55:18 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, the tcp window is the size of the window that the other end can send
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185 2013-12-01 01:55:20 <kjj> "bufferbloat" if you want to google more info on that problem
186 2013-12-01 01:56:11 <phantomcircuit> for example if i set my side of the window to 1 KB then the other side cannot have > 1 KB of unacknowledged outstanding data
187 2013-12-01 01:56:20 <phantomcircuit> if you combine that with measurements of latency
188 2013-12-01 01:56:20 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: yes, which is an advisement.
189 2013-12-01 01:56:36 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, it's almost universally implemented
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191 2013-12-01 01:56:53 <kjj> Hockey game, see ya all later
192 2013-12-01 01:57:05 <phantomcircuit> indeed if you send a packet with a sequence number outside the window to a modern linux server it will think you're bruteforcing the seqnum and disconnect
193 2013-12-01 01:57:10 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: for example, amazon sets their shit up to completely ignore it
194 2013-12-01 01:57:24 <comboy> Ikjj, gavinandresen thx for taking time to explain
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197 2013-12-01 02:01:36 <comboy> accounts acting as subwallets would be super cool
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201 2013-12-01 02:04:38 <toffoo> github question: if I want to submit a New Issue, is there no way to search thru existing Issues to see if it has been submitted already?
202 2013-12-01 02:08:16 <warren> toffoo: hey
203 2013-12-01 02:08:28 <toffoo> hi warren
204 2013-12-01 02:08:40 <warren> toffoo: any trouble after syncing from bootstrap.dat ?
205 2013-12-01 02:08:51 <toffoo> just now, yes
206 2013-12-01 02:08:58 <warren> toffoo: what happpened?
207 2013-12-01 02:09:06 <toffoo> something strange and new and interesting again
208 2013-12-01 02:09:12 <warren> crash on tx sending?
209 2013-12-01 02:09:19 <warren> did you save the traceback?
210 2013-12-01 02:09:19 <toffoo> yes!
211 2013-12-01 02:09:21 <warren> toffoo: OMG6?
212 2013-12-01 02:09:25 <toffoo> yes!
213 2013-12-01 02:09:28 <warren> crap
214 2013-12-01 02:09:32 <toffoo> you must be a mind reader warren
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216 2013-12-01 02:09:40 <warren> toffoo: did OMG5 hvae the same crash on tx send?
217 2013-12-01 02:09:57 <warren> only difference between the two is cfields 2nd leveldb patch
218 2013-12-01 02:10:11 <toffoo> here's your traceback link: http://pastebin.com/g8QqheGc
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222 2013-12-01 02:10:48 <toffoo> no, this is the first time I've seen a crash like that on tx sending
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224 2013-12-01 02:10:59 <warren> toffoo: please try OMG5 again
225 2013-12-01 02:11:06 <sipa> ugh, that's a crash in the GUI code
226 2013-12-01 02:11:08 <warren> toffoo: did tx send fail or it worked?
227 2013-12-01 02:11:32 <toffoo> it looks like it did eventually get thru
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229 2013-12-01 02:11:42 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, tcp_input.c tcp_sequence, !after(seq, tp->rcv_nxt + tcp_receive_window(tp))
230 2013-12-01 02:11:52 <toffoo> and I was able to restart it and keep going with no reindex
231 2013-12-01 02:11:54 <warren> sipa: this build has stuff from master, it isn't ordinary 0.8.5. no crashes on win32 or linux in months of testing.
232 2013-12-01 02:12:01 <toffoo> it's probably a different bug
233 2013-12-01 02:12:38 <toffoo> it was also the first time I tried sending a tx with coin control .. perhaps it was related to that
234 2013-12-01 02:12:39 <sipa> yes, so it would seem
235 2013-12-01 02:12:47 <sipa> it may be related to coin control, yes
236 2013-12-01 02:13:01 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, the stuff that lies and goes outside the window is just assuming that you'll receive them in order, the first packet doubles the window size so the second one fits
237 2013-12-01 02:13:33 <cfields> warren: please drop my patches, i'll post to the forum explaining that there was some faulty logic
238 2013-12-01 02:13:44 <toffoo> in diagnosing this, I noticed another small issue for the first time:
239 2013-12-01 02:13:45 <phantomcircuit> but in general tc should be able to relatively reliably control downlink bandwidth by shrinking the window if both sides are linux
240 2013-12-01 02:13:56 <warren> cfields: ok
241 2013-12-01 02:14:02 <phantomcircuit> but what it really does it just drops packets you've already received anyways
242 2013-12-01 02:14:07 <warren> toffoo: Robert just said to toffoo: " You may want to ask toffoo to do a hardware check. His tracebacks jump around, and I've seen that on machines with a faulty dimm"
243 2013-12-01 02:14:11 <phantomcircuit> which is as you said totally pointless and kind of dumb
244 2013-12-01 02:14:12 <rescrv> toffoo, warren: Your crashes seem to jump around. Have you done a check of the hardware? Maybe memtest?
245 2013-12-01 02:14:22 <warren> oh good
246 2013-12-01 02:14:33 <rescrv> just had to identify
247 2013-12-01 02:14:37 <warren> toffoo: please see if the crash happens with OMG5
248 2013-12-01 02:15:09 <toffoo> when I select 'Copy Transaction ID' from the context dialog box, it is incorrectly appending -000 in my Clipboard to the actual txid,
249 2013-12-01 02:15:18 <toffoo> any idea if this is a known issue?
250 2013-12-01 02:15:43 <warren> rescrv: coblee (litecoin founder and an excellent dev) had the same crashes though.
251 2013-12-01 02:16:08 <warren> toffoo: does that happen with plain 0.8.5?
252 2013-12-01 02:16:17 <sipa> toffoo: working as intended
253 2013-12-01 02:16:19 <phantomcircuit> oh huh
254 2013-12-01 02:16:22 <phantomcircuit> it doesn't disconnect
255 2013-12-01 02:16:27 <phantomcircuit> but comically it does discard
256 2013-12-01 02:16:33 <toffoo> sipa really?
257 2013-12-01 02:16:34 <sipa> toffoo: it appends the output index
258 2013-12-01 02:16:37 <phantomcircuit> interesting
259 2013-12-01 02:16:45 <sipa> toffoo: as a ledger entry isn't identified by just the transaction id
260 2013-12-01 02:16:49 <warren> toffoo: please go back to OMG5 and test tx sending
261 2013-12-01 02:16:55 <sipa> it uses a bit of weird format for that though
262 2013-12-01 02:16:59 <warren> toffoo: use testnet if necessary
263 2013-12-01 02:17:06 <sipa> <txid>:<index> is more common
264 2013-12-01 02:17:18 * warren tries that
265 2013-12-01 02:17:26 <toffoo> sipa ok thanks, that makes sense
266 2013-12-01 02:18:03 <toffoo> warren ok, I'll go back to OMG5 and let you know how it goes
267 2013-12-01 02:18:49 <midnightmagic> ... bufferbloat has basically nothing to do with being able to rate-limit on the client side unless you have an isp that actively proxies actual TCP streams and pretends to be you. there is no real packets *dropped*. they just remain unacknowledged and the stuff at the end of the window just gets re-sent when the client starts ack'ing again. this is why rsync --bwlimit actually works.
268 2013-12-01 02:19:45 <toffoo> warren I hope hot swapping back to the OMG5 binary without reindexing is okay?
269 2013-12-01 02:19:50 <warren> rescrv: does the tracebacks from earlier suggest more issues elsewhere in leveldb?
270 2013-12-01 02:19:57 <warren> toffoo: yes
271 2013-12-01 02:20:03 <warren> probably...
272 2013-12-01 02:20:29 <rescrv> warren: are you referring to the traceback most recently posted to 2770?
273 2013-12-01 02:20:53 <warren> rescrv: prior to cfields patch
274 2013-12-01 02:20:58 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
275 2013-12-01 02:21:04 <rescrv> here ? http://pastebin.com/nyvZ7xEZ
276 2013-12-01 02:21:26 <warren> I don't recognize random letters, let me loook
277 2013-12-01 02:21:34 a_meteor has joined
278 2013-12-01 02:21:50 <warren> rescrv: the one above that
279 2013-12-01 02:21:52 <rescrv> what it suggests is that the slice generated in GetCoins points to invalid memory. Without a core, I cannot say whether it's a valid key or not.
280 2013-12-01 02:22:06 reneg has quit (Quit: reneg)
281 2013-12-01 02:22:20 <rescrv> above in the same comment or another comment?
282 2013-12-01 02:22:24 <HaltingState> does anyone know a fast algorithm for finding if an integer appears more than once in a set; is sorting faster than hash table?
283 2013-12-01 02:22:28 <warren> rescrv: same comment
284 2013-12-01 02:23:52 <cfields> rescrv: my apologies for harping on something silly. Took me several days to finally realize what you meant about the map size not being arbitrary.
285 2013-12-01 02:24:08 <rescrv> warren: the easiest way to make a crash like that happen is to pass a bad Slice as the second arg to frame 4. When you finally dereference the pointer contained within the slice, you'd see a crash.
286 2013-12-01 02:24:32 <sipa> i'm looking at the code
287 2013-12-01 02:24:47 <rescrv> Of course, that doesn't mean that is what is happening in the traceback, just the easiest path to causing such a crash
288 2013-12-01 02:24:47 <sipa> i don't understand how the constructed slice could be invalid
289 2013-12-01 02:25:31 <warren> oh shoot
290 2013-12-01 02:25:34 <warren> toffoo: wait
291 2013-12-01 02:25:36 <warren> toffoo: stop
292 2013-12-01 02:25:56 <rescrv> cfields: no worries
293 2013-12-01 02:26:08 Polyatomic has joined
294 2013-12-01 02:26:40 <warren> rescrv: any thoughts on the mem barriers patch? for coblee who was experiencing leveldb corruption 'every try' it somehow stopped ...
295 2013-12-01 02:26:47 <warren> rescrv: that was prior to your patch
296 2013-12-01 02:27:26 <warren> toffoo: did you have any crashes at all with OMG5?
297 2013-12-01 02:27:46 imsaguy has joined
298 2013-12-01 02:28:12 <toffoo> warren no, I don't think so
299 2013-12-01 02:28:19 <cfields> warren: you really need to serialize the debugging process. The current method isn't working. One change, one build, one test with good data, move on to the next.
300 2013-12-01 02:28:51 <rescrv> warren: getting the memory barriers right is necessary for correctness of the code, but is not what was causing the corruption users are seeing.
301 2013-12-01 02:28:59 <toffoo> I think OMG5 was working good, and then we swapped in OMG6 binary (which was really the same as OMG5), and then swapped in OMG6b and then it crashed
302 2013-12-01 02:29:25 <sipa> also note that random unrelated errors can always occur... memory faults, unrelated bugs, ...
303 2013-12-01 02:29:44 <warren> cfields: your suggestion to start with new blocks was incorrect though, a reindex is adequate
304 2013-12-01 02:29:47 <sipa> if a particular mode of failure is not reproducible, it may not be the sort of problem we're trying to fix
305 2013-12-01 02:30:16 <warren> sipa: toffoo and coblee experienced exactly the same failures
306 2013-12-01 02:30:35 <rescrv> warren: I don't have access to my mac anymore, so I cannot say anything about whether cfields patch improves their correctness. It certainly cannot hurt (correctness) to use the OS-provided memory barrier
307 2013-12-01 02:30:50 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, heh actually i think ovh does this
308 2013-12-01 02:31:00 <phantomcircuit> logs are full of unexpectedly shrunk windows
309 2013-12-01 02:31:41 <cfields> rescrv: i submitted it as a ticket upstream. It's tangential to this, and I agree with your conclusion.
310 2013-12-01 02:31:52 <warren> rescrv: ok, we're in agreement that the OS-provided mem barriers can't hurt at least.
311 2013-12-01 02:32:20 <warren> cfields: the test data from multiple users suggests rescrv's patch alone leads to crashes
312 2013-12-01 02:32:37 W0rmDr1nk has joined
313 2013-12-01 02:32:50 <rescrv> warren: do those same users see crashes without the patch?
314 2013-12-01 02:32:55 Prattler has joined
315 2013-12-01 02:33:03 <warren> rescrv: no
316 2013-12-01 02:33:13 <warren> rescrv: they experience the original corruption issue often though
317 2013-12-01 02:33:17 <rescrv> I'm trying to figure out how adding an msync can cause a crash, unless they never get off the ground
318 2013-12-01 02:33:17 JimJones_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
319 2013-12-01 02:33:27 <rescrv> ah, so the corruption masks the later issue
320 2013-12-01 02:34:17 <cfields> warren: are the crashes (with rescrv's patch applied) the same?
321 2013-12-01 02:34:34 <warren> cfields: I'm only getting tracebacks from toffoo
322 2013-12-01 02:34:48 * sipa things would (will?) be better if we get rid of mmap in leveldb entirely...
323 2013-12-01 02:35:07 <rescrv> sipa: I've a patch that gets rid of it for writes
324 2013-12-01 02:35:12 <rescrv> that'd be sufficient I think
325 2013-12-01 02:35:23 <rescrv> it's slower than not doing that though
326 2013-12-01 02:35:25 <cfields> rescrv: the binaries in question have it disabled for reads as well
327 2013-12-01 02:35:39 <cfields> (32bit)
328 2013-12-01 02:36:26 <warren> it's crazy that most users seem incapable of reproducing this, and the few people who can don't respond
329 2013-12-01 02:36:50 <cfields> warren: we have the data for toffoo's crash?
330 2013-12-01 02:36:51 sacrelege has joined
331 2013-12-01 02:37:28 HaltingState has quit (Quit: Leaving)
332 2013-12-01 02:37:48 <ryan-c> Does anyone know how to compile the casacius Bitcoin Address Utility on linux?
333 2013-12-01 02:38:20 n0n0 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
334 2013-12-01 02:38:50 johnsoft has joined
335 2013-12-01 02:38:54 <warren> cfields: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770#issuecomment-29541916
336 2013-12-01 02:39:13 <rescrv> warren: any chance of a core?
337 2013-12-01 02:39:51 <warren> rescrv: ask toffoo
338 2013-12-01 02:39:58 <warren> rescrv: I don't even know how to get a core on a mac
339 2013-12-01 02:40:09 <rescrv> me either
340 2013-12-01 02:40:16 <toffoo> me neither
341 2013-12-01 02:40:33 <cfields> toffoo: do you have the debug.log to go with that?
342 2013-12-01 02:40:37 <warren> rescrv: these builds are also on an ancient version of xcode on 10.6.8
343 2013-12-01 02:40:59 <rescrv> toffoo: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2080918/where-are-core-dumps-written-to-in-mac-os-x
344 2013-12-01 02:41:01 <warren> rescrv: xcode 3.6.4 I think
345 2013-12-01 02:41:29 <rescrv> warren: IIRC, gdb can cross-debug, so I was going to give it a crack from Linux
346 2013-12-01 02:41:32 <phantomcircuit> warren, is that a SIGSEGV in leveldb? wat
347 2013-12-01 02:41:50 <phantomcircuit> i wonder if the mmap stuff isn't being properly synchronized between threads
348 2013-12-01 02:42:15 <toffoo> cfields warren I will go update the github issue report, with links for traceback, debug.log .. and what else? chainstate dir? "core dump"?
349 2013-12-01 02:42:28 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: that wouldn't cause a crash. anything that's written is flushed, unmapped, closed, opened, remapped before being read
350 2013-12-01 02:43:16 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, if munmap is called before a thread accesses the mapped memory region it would cause the SIGSEGV
351 2013-12-01 02:43:42 <warren> toffoo: follow whatever rescrv and cfields tell you to do
352 2013-12-01 02:43:49 <sipa> rescrv: have you any explanation for bitcoin's database corrupting while syncing (without any crash) that some people have reported (apart from hardware errors) ?
353 2013-12-01 02:43:58 <warren> I'm doing a new build with rescrv + mem barrier since that was the last build that didn't crash for anyone.
354 2013-12-01 02:44:21 <jgarzik> warren, http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-litecoin-bounty-for-mac-bug/
355 2013-12-01 02:44:53 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
356 2013-12-01 02:45:24 n0n0 has joined
357 2013-12-01 02:46:00 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: that could cause the error too. Without a core we're just throwing darts with a blindfold
358 2013-12-01 02:46:13 <warren> jgarzik: who the heck is Nandwani?
359 2013-12-01 02:46:49 <warren> jgarzik: Coindesk continues their tradition of low quality journalism.
360 2013-12-01 02:47:08 <toffoo> rescrv seems like that stackoverflow says you need to flip something on BEFORE the crash happens to get the core dump .. so I'll flip it on now and maybe I can send one next time it crashes
361 2013-12-01 02:47:45 <warren> rescrv: cfields: do these binaries have debuginfo stripped or not? I have no idea.
362 2013-12-01 02:47:52 <rescrv> sipa: On OS X there is a case where it can happen. I know of no such case on Linux, short of programs that have memory corruption bugs.
363 2013-12-01 02:47:52 shhh_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
364 2013-12-01 02:48:14 <sipa> rescrv: those reports were on OSX, iirc
365 2013-12-01 02:48:22 <rescrv> warren: I'd suspect it has some info. After all, the tracebacks have symbols I can understand
366 2013-12-01 02:48:31 <cfields> warren: i don't know how you're building. they're stripped during packaging.
367 2013-12-01 02:48:32 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
368 2013-12-01 02:49:18 <rescrv> sipa: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/leveldb/GXhx8YvFiig/dT5wX-FZS6kJ I've already submitted it to warren and it's in OMG5/6
369 2013-12-01 02:49:23 <warren> cfields: following release-process.md
370 2013-12-01 02:49:58 <warren> OMG5 had no crashes (same size 2 testers, inadequate time to really test it)
371 2013-12-01 02:50:17 <warren> cfields: so if I upload the .app it will be unstripped?
372 2013-12-01 02:50:48 <cfields> warren: it's stripped in the 'dist' dir. Just look at the filesize.
373 2013-12-01 02:50:57 erans_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
374 2013-12-01 02:52:03 root_empire has joined
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376 2013-12-01 02:52:30 <warren> err....
377 2013-12-01 02:52:38 <warren> sample size 2 testers
378 2013-12-01 02:53:28 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
379 2013-12-01 02:55:24 BlueMatt has joined
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383 2013-12-01 03:09:38 <toffoo> rescrv what do you think could be the security implications if I upload a core dump from a crashed bitcoin-qt for you guys to probe at?
384 2013-12-01 03:11:00 <phantomcircuit> toffoo, assume all private keys in the wallet are compromised
385 2013-12-01 03:11:25 <toffoo> that's kind of what I was thinking
386 2013-12-01 03:11:37 <phantomcircuit> they're all stored in memory when the wallet is locked and i'd be suspicious of 'walletlock' actually overwriting the plaintext keys
387 2013-12-01 03:11:38 dermoth_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
388 2013-12-01 03:13:14 pablog has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
389 2013-12-01 03:13:16 <rescrv> toffoo: don't upload anything you don't want to put on the front page of the NYT. Best to create a sterile environment and generate the crash there to prevent information leaks.
390 2013-12-01 03:13:49 <gmaxwell> toffoo: if you've never unlocked the wallet during your execution you should be generally fine, but I'd suggest just handing it to single people instead of making it public.
391 2013-12-01 03:14:08 <gmaxwell> rescrv: unfortunately reproducing this crash is not generally easy.
392 2013-12-01 03:14:17 <toffoo> so warren rescrv to test this ability to generate core dumps on Mac, I ran 'ulimit -c unlimited' as per stackoverflow, also seems important to run the binary thereafter from the same Terminal, and just got -OMG6b to crash again doing the same thing (send tx /w coin control) and so now I have a core dump.
393 2013-12-01 03:14:39 <toffoo> but again, this is probably from a different bug
394 2013-12-01 03:14:56 <gmaxwell> toffoo: another option is just to get someone to guide you through inspecting the bug in gdb.
395 2013-12-01 03:15:08 <toffoo> gmaxwell nope, I'm not that guy
396 2013-12-01 03:15:15 <cfields> toffoo: er, is this the qt crash?
397 2013-12-01 03:16:04 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i've given up and am currently implementing a pwrite implementation of WritableFile
398 2013-12-01 03:16:11 stevedekorte has joined
399 2013-12-01 03:16:11 stevedekorte has quit (Client Quit)
400 2013-12-01 03:16:41 <toffoo> cfields I don't know what THE qt crash is, but this seems to be a different crash from the db corruption issues. happens after a tx is sent.
401 2013-12-01 03:16:42 <cfields> phantomcircuit: it would seem there are several floating around already.
402 2013-12-01 03:16:52 <cfields> toffoo: this one: http://pastebin.com/g8QqheGc
403 2013-12-01 03:17:01 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: you should be able to do it with "write", not "pwrite"
404 2013-12-01 03:17:32 <toffoo> cfields yup that's it
405 2013-12-01 03:17:40 <warren> toffoo: if you can reproduce any corruption or crashes with testnet, there would be zero security issues
406 2013-12-01 03:17:42 <cfields> toffoo: err, that's not related to leveldb
407 2013-12-01 03:17:44 enquirer2 has joined
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409 2013-12-01 03:18:33 Subo1977 has joined
410 2013-12-01 03:18:40 <toffoo> cfields right, this was just a test crash to see that I can actually generate the core dump, so this one won't be helpful
411 2013-12-01 03:18:46 <phantomcircuit> also i noticed that PosixMmapFile always starts with a file_offset_ of 0
412 2013-12-01 03:18:50 <cfields> ah ok
413 2013-12-01 03:19:10 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: WritableFiles are always written starting from an empty file
414 2013-12-01 03:19:22 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, that's what i figured
415 2013-12-01 03:19:35 eristisk has joined
416 2013-12-01 03:21:38 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: it's worth noting that switching to a non-mmap env will not fix toffoo's crash. The segfault he had in leveldb was not due to corrupted data.
417 2013-12-01 03:22:07 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
418 2013-12-01 03:22:40 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, mostly i just want to see how big of a performance difference this makes
419 2013-12-01 03:22:44 <phantomcircuit> im guessing it's substantial
420 2013-12-01 03:22:54 <phantomcircuit> but we'll see
421 2013-12-01 03:23:35 dhw has left ("Leaving")
422 2013-12-01 03:24:00 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: when I hacked around with hyperleveldb and replaced the stock mmap code, I found that there's not too much difference for single-threaded apps. The perf problems crept in for multi-threaded writes.
423 2013-12-01 03:24:19 <rescrv> also, FILE* can and will bite you if you have any form of buffering.
424 2013-12-01 03:30:15 a_meteor has quit (Quit: Leaving)
425 2013-12-01 03:31:30 <phantomcircuit> so mmap is definitely faster
426 2013-12-01 03:31:52 <phantomcircuit> the major difference is
427 2013-12-01 03:31:53 <phantomcircuit> fillseq : 1.217 micros/op; 90.9 MB/s
428 2013-12-01 03:31:56 <phantomcircuit> fillseq : 3.600 micros/op; 30.7 MB/s
429 2013-12-01 03:31:59 RoboTedd_ has joined
430 2013-12-01 03:32:13 <phantomcircuit> but is it really worth the slightly improved flush speed?
431 2013-12-01 03:32:21 <phantomcircuit> i cant imagine it is
432 2013-12-01 03:32:38 <phantomcircuit> and that's an implementation without any internal buffer which this allows for
433 2013-12-01 03:32:58 <phantomcircuit> ie WriteableFile::Append just calls write() immediately
434 2013-12-01 03:33:12 gribble has joined
435 2013-12-01 03:33:25 <phungus> does anyone know how to get ahold of nanotube?
436 2013-12-01 03:33:38 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, ping
437 2013-12-01 03:33:43 <phantomcircuit> phungus, ^
438 2013-12-01 03:33:44 <phungus> this doesn't work: http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/User:Nanotube
439 2013-12-01 03:33:44 Burritoh has left ()
440 2013-12-01 03:33:45 <phantomcircuit> (hehe)
441 2013-12-01 03:33:48 <phungus> oh
442 2013-12-01 03:33:50 <phungus> look at that
443 2013-12-01 03:33:52 <phungus> lol
444 2013-12-01 03:34:00 <phantomcircuit> ;;seen nanotube
445 2013-12-01 03:34:04 <phungus> 20 wks
446 2013-12-01 03:34:08 <phungus> ago
447 2013-12-01 03:34:12 <phantomcircuit> hmm
448 2013-12-01 03:34:22 <phungus> yeah, maybe he has a script checking it
449 2013-12-01 03:34:28 <gribble> nanotube was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 days, 11 hours, 36 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <nanotube> UukGoblin: :)
450 2013-12-01 03:34:37 <phungus> lol
451 2013-12-01 03:34:41 <phantomcircuit> phungus, he's around
452 2013-12-01 03:34:41 <phungus> nevermind
453 2013-12-01 03:34:53 <phantomcircuit> ;;seen is channel specific
454 2013-12-01 03:34:54 <nanotube> thanks for the heads-up phantomcircuit
455 2013-12-01 03:34:56 <nanotube> phungus:
456 2013-12-01 03:34:59 <phungus> aha
457 2013-12-01 03:35:04 <phungus> werd nano
458 2013-12-01 03:35:13 <phungus> hope you had a good holiday
459 2013-12-01 03:35:23 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
460 2013-12-01 03:35:25 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sipa ping on just switching to a trivial WriteableFile implementation in leveldb?
461 2013-12-01 03:36:06 <warren> toffoo: does OMG6 crash on tx send?
462 2013-12-01 03:36:25 <warren> toffoo: OMG5 would be good to test too
463 2013-12-01 03:36:48 kinglet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
464 2013-12-01 03:37:05 <nanotube> phungus: still having it, thanks :) same tyou
465 2013-12-01 03:37:07 <nanotube> to you
466 2013-12-01 03:37:18 kinglet has joined
467 2013-12-01 03:37:26 <phungus> awesome. :-)
468 2013-12-01 03:38:45 a_meteor has joined
469 2013-12-01 03:39:08 <[\\\]> phungus, it has to be channel specific, otherwise, it'd leak top sekretsss
470 2013-12-01 03:41:28 awice has joined
471 2013-12-01 03:42:21 <phungus> aha you're right
472 2013-12-01 03:42:26 erans_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
473 2013-12-01 03:42:42 erans_ has joined
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476 2013-12-01 03:51:16 <warren> toffoo: I'm making a new build that changes only the leveldb patches
477 2013-12-01 03:51:46 <toffoo> warren https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770#issuecomment-29566702
478 2013-12-01 03:51:50 <warren> toffoo: yes
479 2013-12-01 03:52:01 <warren> toffoo: what was the first OMG build that you tested?
480 2013-12-01 03:52:14 <toffoo> I think OMG3
481 2013-12-01 03:52:44 <toffoo> before that it was 0.8.5.2-rc4
482 2013-12-01 03:53:05 <toffoo> err no, that was Litecoin
483 2013-12-01 03:54:04 <warren> I'm not convinced that there is a bug in the GUI stuff.
484 2013-12-01 03:54:09 saulimus has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
485 2013-12-01 03:54:31 <warren> to eliminate the non-leveldb variables I'm making builds that change only leveldb
486 2013-12-01 03:55:32 Guest5168 has joined
487 2013-12-01 03:55:46 <toffoo> ok
488 2013-12-01 03:55:54 <warren> toffoo: it will take me a while
489 2013-12-01 03:56:02 <warren> toffoo: meanwhile could you please see if OMG5 crashes or corrupts at all?
490 2013-12-01 03:56:09 <cfields> warren: not convinced of what?
491 2013-12-01 03:56:20 <toffoo> ok, thanks and best of luck
492 2013-12-01 03:56:21 <warren> toffoo: neither you nor coblee had any problem with OMG5
493 2013-12-01 03:57:49 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
494 2013-12-01 03:58:08 <toffoo> warren that's right
495 2013-12-01 03:58:21 agnostic98 has joined
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498 2013-12-01 04:00:20 <cfields> toffoo: did you attempt tx sending with that binary?
499 2013-12-01 04:00:30 <warren> toffoo: yeah, curious
500 2013-12-01 04:00:49 <warren> cfields: we've tested that thousands of times with that code on win32 and linux with zero issues
501 2013-12-01 04:01:20 DLN-001 has joined
502 2013-12-01 04:01:43 <cfields> warren: the backtrace is clear, it has nothing to do with leveldb
503 2013-12-01 04:01:48 <cfields> it crashed on some mouseclick
504 2013-12-01 04:02:04 <rescrv> cfields: there are two backtraces
505 2013-12-01 04:02:44 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
506 2013-12-01 04:03:06 <toffoo> ok I'm switching to -OMG5 and will try a test tx
507 2013-12-01 04:07:16 <cfields> rescrv: you mean the qt one and the iterator one?
508 2013-12-01 04:07:27 <rescrv> cfields: yes
509 2013-12-01 04:07:27 <warren> someone have a bitcoin testnet node with lots of coins? I need some dust.
510 2013-12-01 04:07:57 root_empire has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
511 2013-12-01 04:10:09 <toffoo> ok -OMG5 just crashed for me in exactly the same way upon tx send with Coin Control ... I have traceback and core dump
512 2013-12-01 04:10:29 awice has quit (Quit: Page closed)
513 2013-12-01 04:10:41 <warren> testing that here
514 2013-12-01 04:11:06 <warren> the testnet faucet is broken
515 2013-12-01 04:11:09 <warren> anyone have testnet coins?
516 2013-12-01 04:14:11 <gmaxwell> warren: sure.
517 2013-12-01 04:14:50 bd_ has joined
518 2013-12-01 04:14:54 Guest5168 has joined
519 2013-12-01 04:16:06 <gmaxwell> warren: what do you need and what address?
520 2013-12-01 04:16:17 DLN-001 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
521 2013-12-01 04:16:23 <warren> gmaxwell: mvvVzDUh6YqWqRufExUDaNoxjbLUWY5SyG send maybe 50 individual coins of any size
522 2013-12-01 04:16:35 <jgarzik> 50 individual coins?
523 2013-12-01 04:16:43 <warren> well tx's
524 2013-12-01 04:16:48 <jgarzik> surely you can divide it up yourself
525 2013-12-01 04:16:52 <warren> sure
526 2013-12-01 04:18:29 <gmaxwell> warren: break it up yourself. :P
527 2013-12-01 04:18:49 <warren> is there mining on testnet?
528 2013-12-01 04:19:03 ircuser-6 has joined
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532 2013-12-01 04:19:11 kill\switch has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
533 2013-12-01 04:19:12 <gmaxwell> warren: of course.
534 2013-12-01 04:20:05 <warren> last time I asked for testnet dust, I didn't specify quantity, and petertodd sent such a large amount that my wallet doesn't load anymore
535 2013-12-01 04:20:19 <jgarzik> warren, testnet is the same as mainnet, save for a few rules (nonstd allowed, 20 min no block == diff 1 accepted, alt port and network magic)
536 2013-12-01 04:20:32 <warren> jgarzik: i know
537 2013-12-01 04:20:36 <gmaxwell> warren: haha
538 2013-12-01 04:20:41 <gmaxwell> warren: confirmed.
539 2013-12-01 04:20:46 <jgarzik> warren, then you know the answer to the question you asked ;p
540 2013-12-01 04:21:01 <warren> jgarzik: I mean in the past there were no miners
541 2013-12-01 04:21:17 <gmaxwell> I don't think we've had that problem for a while, fortunately, sort of the opposite.
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548 2013-12-01 04:25:15 * warren failing to load the wallet from petertodd's dust
549 2013-12-01 04:30:10 kaawee has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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562 2013-12-01 04:46:32 <ryan-c> warren: did you still need testnet coins?
563 2013-12-01 04:47:01 <warren> ryan-c: go ahead and second a few tx to mvvVzDUh6YqWqRufExUDaNoxjbLUWY5SyG ... my wallet is failing to sync for some reason
564 2013-12-01 04:47:07 <warren> going very slow
565 2013-12-01 04:47:11 <ryan-c> warren: how much do you want?
566 2013-12-01 04:47:14 a_meteor has quit (Disconnected by services)
567 2013-12-01 04:47:16 a_meteor_alt is now known as a_meteor
568 2013-12-01 04:47:53 <warren> ryan-c: send 50 tx's of any size
569 2013-12-01 04:48:31 debiantoruser has joined
570 2013-12-01 04:49:21 <ryan-c> http://pastebin.com/bHRepSzN
571 2013-12-01 04:49:28 <warren> oh great. three sets of random 8 peers, none would send me testnet blocks.
572 2013-12-01 04:49:49 <ryan-c> however much that ended up being
573 2013-12-01 04:50:09 <warren> nice
574 2013-12-01 04:50:10 <warren> random
575 2013-12-01 04:50:21 <ryan-c> That's how I roll.
576 2013-12-01 04:50:34 <ryan-c> Hmm.
577 2013-12-01 04:50:44 <ryan-c> I should set up a testnet version of satoshi dice
578 2013-12-01 04:51:05 <ryan-c> It'd be hilarious.
579 2013-12-01 04:52:35 <ryan-c> hmm
580 2013-12-01 04:52:41 imsaguy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
581 2013-12-01 04:52:42 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, doesn't load or takes forever to load?
582 2013-12-01 04:52:52 dvide has joined
583 2013-12-01 04:53:45 <warren> phantomcircuit: you mean me?
584 2013-12-01 04:53:47 <warren> phantomcircuit: takes forever
585 2013-12-01 04:53:53 <phantomcircuit> oh yeah
586 2013-12-01 04:54:10 <warren> phantomcircuit: and yes didn't try your wallet load patch, requires too much stuff from master
587 2013-12-01 04:54:12 <ryan-c> So, I'm working on a program that watches polls bitcoind for new blocks, and walks the chain via netblockhash. Any thoughts on the most reasonable way to have it detect that it's on a orphaned chain and backtrack to the fork?
588 2013-12-01 04:54:24 <phantomcircuit> warren, also it wouldn't help with tx spam like that
589 2013-12-01 04:54:48 <phantomcircuit> ryan-c, if getblock fails you're on a fork
590 2013-12-01 04:55:17 <phantomcircuit> although im not sure counting on that is a great long term strategy
591 2013-12-01 04:55:56 <ryan-c> phantomcircuit: getblock on an orphaned block's hash will fail?
592 2013-12-01 04:56:27 <phantomcircuit> yeah
593 2013-12-01 04:56:35 <phantomcircuit> even if it's in blk*.dat
594 2013-12-01 04:56:35 <ryan-c> ah, well that's easy enough
595 2013-12-01 04:56:56 <ryan-c> i have it walk nextblockhash and if there is no nextblockhash it just re-runs getblock until there is
596 2013-12-01 04:57:56 <ryan-c> I could keep a history of the last few dozen block hashes and backtrack until I find a working one, then continue walking the chain
597 2013-12-01 04:58:54 <ryan-c> ATM I think a failing getblock will cause an exception and make my program abort
598 2013-12-01 04:59:33 cadaver has joined
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606 2013-12-01 05:08:04 <Ryan52> So the implementation of block generating here includes the coinbase twice after (by appending coinbase after the transaction count, but coinbase is also in txnlist): https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate
607 2013-12-01 05:08:13 <Ryan52> Is that the correct behavior?
608 2013-12-01 05:08:28 <Ryan52> after the header, rather.
609 2013-12-01 05:08:28 RoboTedd_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
610 2013-12-01 05:09:01 <Ryan52> Nevermind I'm a dummy, I missed the "txnlist[1:]" :/
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623 2013-12-01 05:35:35 <warren> rescrv: cfields: getting weird conflicting results ... things that crash for toffoo do not crash for coblee.
624 2013-12-01 05:36:06 brson has joined
625 2013-12-01 05:36:16 <phantomcircuit> warren, im working on a very simple replacement for PosixMmapFile
626 2013-12-01 05:36:38 <phantomcircuit> personally i'd rather have something marginally slower that actually works
627 2013-12-01 05:36:47 <warren> phantomcircuit: no kidding
628 2013-12-01 05:37:32 <cfields> warren: you really need to differentiate between the qt crash and data corruption.
629 2013-12-01 05:37:38 <phantomcircuit> man write() really doesn't handle thread contention very well
630 2013-12-01 05:37:55 <phantomcircuit> fillseq : 1.153 micros/op; 96.0 MB/s
631 2013-12-01 05:37:59 <phantomcircuit> fillseq : 9.239 micros/op; 23.9 MB/s
632 2013-12-01 05:38:02 ThomasV has joined
633 2013-12-01 05:38:02 <phantomcircuit> fillseq : 54.202 micros/op; 8.1 MB/s
634 2013-12-01 05:38:06 <phantomcircuit> 1 2 4 threads
635 2013-12-01 05:38:09 <warren> cfields: I'm trying to do so
636 2013-12-01 05:38:14 <warren> cfields: I can't confirm anything consistent
637 2013-12-01 05:38:22 jeewee has joined
638 2013-12-01 05:38:24 <warren> cfields: and testing the same thing on win32 and linux has no crash
639 2013-12-01 05:38:25 <phantomcircuit> wait this is the mmap version
640 2013-12-01 05:38:25 <phantomcircuit> jeez
641 2013-12-01 05:38:28 <cfields> warren: backtraces?
642 2013-12-01 05:38:35 <warren> cfields: same thing as what you've seen
643 2013-12-01 05:39:17 <cfields> warren: yes, apparently osx acts differently wrt window activation under the cursor
644 2013-12-01 05:39:37 <cfields> i assume because of the menubar
645 2013-12-01 05:40:54 reneg has joined
646 2013-12-01 05:40:59 <cfields> but it's all explainable, there's no need to attribute unrelated things to one mysterious bug
647 2013-12-01 05:42:27 <Ryan52> b
648 2013-12-01 05:43:01 Guest79074 has joined
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652 2013-12-01 05:46:57 <phantomcircuit> wow that's incredible
653 2013-12-01 05:47:09 <phantomcircuit> even a small amount of thread contention completely destroys leveldb write performance
654 2013-12-01 05:47:29 <phantomcircuit> i guess linux doesn't do a great job of dealing with multiple writers
655 2013-12-01 05:47:47 <phantomcircuit> fortunately we only have a single thread writing iirc
656 2013-12-01 05:47:51 <phantomcircuit> warren, is that right?
657 2013-12-01 05:50:29 <phantomcircuit> fillseq : 69.427 micros/op; 6.4 MB/s
658 2013-12-01 05:50:42 <phantomcircuit> that's only marginally worse than mmap and that's only with an 8KB buffer
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670 2013-12-01 06:09:34 <Diablo-D3> raise your hands if you wish bitcoin had a feature not to upload old blocks to new clients
671 2013-12-01 06:10:03 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, bad idea
672 2013-12-01 06:10:13 <phantomcircuit> there's already not enough active listening nodes
673 2013-12-01 06:10:37 <Diablo-D3> come on damnit
674 2013-12-01 06:10:41 <Diablo-D3> my bandwidth is going to shit here
675 2013-12-01 06:10:46 <Diablo-D3> it takes me like 60 fucking seconds to even START loading a page
676 2013-12-01 06:11:08 <phantomcircuit> tc cant properly limit uplink?
677 2013-12-01 06:11:14 <phantomcircuit> i thought it was just shit at downlink
678 2013-12-01 06:11:16 d34th has joined
679 2013-12-01 06:11:20 <phantomcircuit> also
680 2013-12-01 06:11:27 <phantomcircuit> %!&% bruteforcing someons bc.i wallet
681 2013-12-01 06:13:02 <warren> Diablo-D3: there's a linux script to use tc/iptables to limit upload speed
682 2013-12-01 06:13:14 <Diablo-D3> warren: tc sucks badly
683 2013-12-01 06:13:25 locksley has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
684 2013-12-01 06:13:26 <warren> i didn't say it was good
685 2013-12-01 06:13:27 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: tc sucks at everything
686 2013-12-01 06:13:37 <phantomcircuit> lol
687 2013-12-01 06:13:39 <phantomcircuit> i'd believe it
688 2013-12-01 06:13:44 Prattler has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
689 2013-12-01 06:14:05 <phantomcircuit> fuck writing my own password iterator
690 2013-12-01 06:14:07 <phantomcircuit> this is dumb
691 2013-12-01 06:14:14 <phantomcircuit> i wish jtr's was easier to use
692 2013-12-01 06:15:15 <warren> phantomcircuit: didn't rescrv say he has an implementation of getting rid of mmap writes?
693 2013-12-01 06:15:30 <phantomcircuit> warren, iirc he said there are some
694 2013-12-01 06:15:33 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: stdout is hard?
695 2013-12-01 06:15:37 <phantomcircuit> writing one wasn't difficult
696 2013-12-01 06:15:41 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's too slow
697 2013-12-01 06:16:26 <gmaxwell> you know that there is a jtr patchset for gpu bc.i wallet cracking right? that does like millions of attempts per second.
698 2013-12-01 06:16:38 <phantomcircuit> really?
699 2013-12-01 06:16:40 <phantomcircuit> no i didn't
700 2013-12-01 06:16:56 ManimalControl has joined
701 2013-12-01 06:17:15 <phantomcircuit> https://github.com/magnumripper/JohnTheRipper
702 2013-12-01 06:17:17 <phantomcircuit> ahah yes
703 2013-12-01 06:17:41 <gmaxwell> it's a bit finniky and doesn't work with all gpus.
704 2013-12-01 06:18:14 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
705 2013-12-01 06:19:06 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i have a pretty good idea of what the password is
706 2013-12-01 06:19:15 <phantomcircuit> so even just cpu should work
707 2013-12-01 06:19:33 <warren> scrypt mining or bc.i cracking, which is more profitable?
708 2013-12-01 06:19:40 <warren> (joking)
709 2013-12-01 06:19:53 <phantomcircuit> lol
710 2013-12-01 06:20:02 <warren> the latter might have higher variance
711 2013-12-01 06:20:11 <warren> bc.i cracking pool with shares ...
712 2013-12-01 06:21:35 <phantomcircuit> how do you verify shares?
713 2013-12-01 06:23:24 <Ryan52> phantomcircuit: a range of targets that includes the target hash you are cracking for?
714 2013-12-01 06:23:43 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: distinguished hashes. you don't even need to match against the target.
715 2013-12-01 06:23:56 <gmaxwell> e.g. passwords which have hashes with lots of zeros.
716 2013-12-01 06:24:08 <warren> hmm
717 2013-12-01 06:24:28 * Ryan52 doesn't know what bc.i password cracking is really all about
718 2013-12-01 06:24:36 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, huh looks like they removed this
719 2013-12-01 06:24:43 <warren> I addnode another testnet node that has excess bandwidth bandwidth and it doesn't download any blocks.
720 2013-12-01 06:25:13 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's in a branch.
721 2013-12-01 06:26:03 <phantomcircuit> ooh the default branch isn't master
722 2013-12-01 06:26:41 <phantomcircuit> bleeding-jumbo
723 2013-12-01 06:26:56 <phantomcircuit> instantly pictured a bleeding fat man
724 2013-12-01 06:27:36 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
725 2013-12-01 06:29:29 <warren> gmaxwell: hmm, such a hypothetical pool can't detect solution withholding
726 2013-12-01 06:30:34 Dennismckinnon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
727 2013-12-01 06:33:39 <phantomcircuit> hmm
728 2013-12-01 06:33:53 <phantomcircuit> any idea how to set a prefix for incremental mode
729 2013-12-01 06:34:21 <gmaxwell> warren: nor can a mining pool, but if you don't tell them the solution (but make it in the distinguished span) they won't reconize it.
730 2013-12-01 06:34:45 Protoshares has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
731 2013-12-01 06:34:55 Protoshares has joined
732 2013-12-01 06:42:18 <warren> peers that fail to respond can cause your block download to stop entirely while others peers could be serving you right?
733 2013-12-01 06:42:58 <warren> I ended up using -connect= with a known good testnet node and now it's going fast...
734 2013-12-01 06:44:40 <gmaxwell> warren: sure, until the next block triggers it again.
735 2013-12-01 06:46:03 sp4ke has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
736 2013-12-01 06:49:03 cadaver has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
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740 2013-12-01 07:01:33 <warren> well, good news ... I can reproduce the send crash on 10.6.8
741 2013-12-01 07:02:04 <warren> I wonder if master has this bug
742 2013-12-01 07:05:24 <JyZyXEL> how can i inject a tx into a running bitcoinds mempool?
743 2013-12-01 07:05:44 <warren> cfields: my bad, I broke CC in a way that effects only mac
744 2013-12-01 07:05:56 <phantomcircuit> JyZyXEL, sendtransaction or sendrawtransaction
745 2013-12-01 07:06:03 <warren> I'm not sure how yet
746 2013-12-01 07:06:05 erans_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
747 2013-12-01 07:06:06 <phantomcircuit> that wont work if it's a double spend though
748 2013-12-01 07:09:46 <JyZyXEL> hmm, id rather not broadcast this 0 fee tx to the whole network, i better run bitcoind without it having access to other nodes
749 2013-12-01 07:10:26 <JyZyXEL> i wonder if -connect=1.2.3.4 would achieve it
750 2013-12-01 07:11:17 <JyZyXEL> or -maxconnections=0
751 2013-12-01 07:11:50 <JyZyXEL> or -bind=127.0.0.1
752 2013-12-01 07:11:53 <JyZyXEL> hehe so many options
753 2013-12-01 07:12:17 <JyZyXEL> or -onlynet=127.0.0.1
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769 2013-12-01 07:47:41 <warren> haven't tried to build master on mac until now
770 2013-12-01 07:47:42 <warren> configure: error: No working boost sleep implementation found
771 2013-12-01 07:47:47 <warren> any ideas?
772 2013-12-01 07:52:27 porquilho has joined
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774 2013-12-01 07:53:50 dermoth__ is now known as dermoth|home
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776 2013-12-01 08:06:45 <Ryan52> warren: Different from this? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3003
777 2013-12-01 08:07:23 <Ryan52> warren: IOW, looks like cfields has a patch!
778 2013-12-01 08:08:46 bitspill has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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781 2013-12-01 08:15:55 Matoking has joined
782 2013-12-01 08:20:02 <warren> http://download1.rpmfusion.org/~warren/bitcoin-0.8.6-mactest1/
783 2013-12-01 08:20:20 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/0.8.6
784 2013-12-01 08:24:11 Tom_Soft has joined
785 2013-12-01 08:29:46 <diki> Can someone quickly explain to me the need of a txout index?
786 2013-12-01 08:29:56 hsmiths_ has joined
787 2013-12-01 08:30:00 <diki> also known as the "Previous Txout-index" in the wiki
788 2013-12-01 08:35:50 dust-otc has joined
789 2013-12-01 08:37:29 conman has joined
790 2013-12-01 08:37:42 <conman> gmaxwell, the shitcoin threads are coming thick and fast now
791 2013-12-01 08:39:58 <gmaxwell> conman: yea, you've been swatting them fast, thanks!
792 2013-12-01 08:40:10 <conman> np, they've resorted to personal attacks now too
793 2013-12-01 08:40:13 <conman> on my own thread
794 2013-12-01 08:40:25 <warren> conman: what are they complaining about?
795 2013-12-01 08:41:38 <conman> oh?
796 2013-12-01 08:41:46 <conman> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28402.msg3790458#msg3790458
797 2013-12-01 08:43:03 <diki> Wow, my post got deleted faster than I expected.
798 2013-12-01 08:44:30 EvilPete has joined
799 2013-12-01 08:45:27 <conman> amazing how quickly people attack just cause you don't support their cause
800 2013-12-01 08:46:54 <Ryan52> This community sure has some great flame wars.
801 2013-12-01 08:48:54 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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804 2013-12-01 08:55:09 <conman> Ry4an, money's involved, it brings out the worst in people
805 2013-12-01 08:55:13 rdymac has joined
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808 2013-12-01 09:10:20 <ryan-c> tab complete fail
809 2013-12-01 09:11:14 tholenst has joined
810 2013-12-01 09:12:40 go1111111 has joined
811 2013-12-01 09:12:50 <conman> fff
812 2013-12-01 09:12:52 <conman> indeed
813 2013-12-01 09:13:03 <conman> Ryan52, money's involved, it brings out the worst in people
814 2013-12-01 09:13:35 <Ryan52> heh, right.
815 2013-12-01 09:13:49 <conman> sorry :P
816 2013-12-01 09:15:02 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
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823 2013-12-01 09:31:01 <warren> Ryan52: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3003 the linked there doesn't help
824 2013-12-01 09:32:18 <Ryan52> warren: yeah, it looked like one user had success and one did not, thought it might be worth a shot at least - but that is quite a busy bug report.
825 2013-12-01 09:32:47 kinjo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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827 2013-12-01 09:33:11 kinjo has joined
828 2013-12-01 09:33:32 <warren> and the include path thing breaks finding other includes
829 2013-12-01 09:41:54 sherap has joined
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835 2013-12-01 09:53:37 <ryan-c> phantomcircuit: So, I just tested it, getblock on an orphaned block's hash *does not* fail.
836 2013-12-01 09:53:46 sherap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
837 2013-12-01 09:54:05 <ryan-c> phantomcircuit: however, it will list the block as zero confirmations
838 2013-12-01 09:55:02 <warren> hmm, anyone found protoc in macports?
839 2013-12-01 09:55:09 <warren> I have no idea how to use mac anything.
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866 2013-12-01 10:44:59 <null> i recommend using homebrew for mac
867 2013-12-01 10:45:15 <null> macports hasn't really caught up with mavericks yet
868 2013-12-01 10:46:20 <null> hm. doesn't seem to be included in brew either
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908 2013-12-01 11:39:53 <a_meteor> gmaxwell, are official releases for windows and OS X compiled on those platforms or cross-compiled on nix?
909 2013-12-01 11:39:56 <a_meteor> or at least, the test builds?
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911 2013-12-01 11:40:48 <warren> a_meteor: builds using mingw for windows
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913 2013-12-01 11:41:06 <warren> a_meteor: mac is built on mac, cfields is has a working cross compile
914 2013-12-01 11:41:34 <a_meteor> blah I guess I can try to furry up my windows with mingw and try building bitcoin-qt
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916 2013-12-01 11:41:54 <warren> furry is interesting verb choice
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919 2013-12-01 11:42:28 <a_meteor> I substituted it with foobar. It felt... good
920 2013-12-01 11:42:42 <a_meteor> I already have cygwin though, this is probably going to be... interesting
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934 2013-12-01 11:56:16 <diki> a_meteor:It's not very difficult to get -Qt to compile under Windows
935 2013-12-01 11:56:31 <diki> Only me and diapolo got them working before tutorials starting popping up
936 2013-12-01 11:56:39 <a_meteor> diki, I'm getting mingw and trying my luck
937 2013-12-01 11:57:04 <diki> I should probably someday try to compile with mingw-w64
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988 2013-12-01 13:33:35 <edulix> hi people
989 2013-12-01 13:34:36 <zyrox> hi
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991 2013-12-01 13:37:16 <edulix> hey zyrox =)
992 2013-12-01 13:37:31 <edulix> I want to automatize the creation transactions, so I need to be able to get enough vins to execute a createrawtrasaction, but how to limit the inputs?
993 2013-12-01 13:38:16 <edulix> or is that done automatically by createrawtransaction using just the outputs? or is the fee stablishes as the difference between amount in outputs and inputs ?
994 2013-12-01 13:41:40 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
995 2013-12-01 13:42:37 <sipa> fee = inputs - outputs
996 2013-12-01 13:44:42 rdymac has joined
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1001 2013-12-01 13:56:04 <edulix> sipa: uhm so what if the input transfer is very big and I want to transfer a smaller amount?
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1008 2013-12-01 14:00:46 <sipa> edulix: you add an output back tonan address of your own
1009 2013-12-01 14:00:53 <sipa> * to an
1010 2013-12-01 14:01:01 <edulix> sipa: ah ok
1011 2013-12-01 14:01:02 <sipa> called a change output
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1014 2013-12-01 14:02:41 <edulix> sipa: I didn't find that term in the wiki
1015 2013-12-01 14:02:45 <edulix> but makes sense
1016 2013-12-01 14:04:42 <sipa> https://bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
1017 2013-12-01 14:06:13 <saracen> In a similar vein to this http://pastebin.com/2qbRKh3R, I leaked all the bitcoin private keys: http://directory.io - Now I just have to hope "reseachers" don't attempt to download every page.
1018 2013-12-01 14:06:21 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1019 2013-12-01 14:06:47 <SomeoneWeird> http://pastebin.com/2qbRKh3R < lmao
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1022 2013-12-01 14:10:10 <sipa> haha!
1023 2013-12-01 14:11:47 <edulix> sipa: can I do a transfer to the same account refered in one of the input tx's? so that I don't need to create multiple addresses :P
1024 2013-12-01 14:12:03 Bkil has joined
1025 2013-12-01 14:12:29 <tholenst> saracen, you should log the pages requested and match the addresses with existing ones: maybe someone tries to see if his private key is in the list!
1026 2013-12-01 14:14:37 kinjo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1027 2013-12-01 14:14:38 <edulix> "It took a lot of computing power to generate this database"
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1029 2013-12-01 14:15:22 <sipa> edulix: you can, vut shoyldn't
1030 2013-12-01 14:15:31 <sipa> edulix: you can, but shoyldn't
1031 2013-12-01 14:15:34 <sipa> grr!
1032 2013-12-01 14:15:39 <sipa> the reason is pruvacy
1033 2013-12-01 14:15:42 <sipa> my god
1034 2013-12-01 14:15:46 <jeremias> <3
1035 2013-12-01 14:15:47 <edulix> sipa: don't care about that
1036 2013-12-01 14:15:53 <sipa> not yours
1037 2013-12-01 14:15:56 <sipa> everyone's
1038 2013-12-01 14:16:22 <saracen> I think at the moment, it'd be pretty difficult to look up your own private key. Not impossible, you'd just have to figure out the correct page number
1039 2013-12-01 14:16:28 <sipa> the system is objectively less useful when transactions are easily tracable
1040 2013-12-01 14:16:40 <jeremias> sipa: I guess you are misspelling the words so that NSA autocrawler won't catch them?
1041 2013-12-01 14:16:43 <edulix> sipa: then use zerocoin xD
1042 2013-12-01 14:16:57 <jeremias> zerocoin has real-world implementation, no, yes?
1043 2013-12-01 14:17:09 <sipa> edulix: zerocoin is incredibly inefficient
1044 2013-12-01 14:17:17 <edulix> no blockchain yet, it has an implementation though
1045 2013-12-01 14:17:19 <jeremias> and only exists on paper?
1046 2013-12-01 14:17:24 <edulix> sipa: it's getting better :-P
1047 2013-12-01 14:17:28 <sipa> i know
1048 2013-12-01 14:17:37 <tholenst> saracen: agreed; luckily! I think better keep it this way, or you might get complaints :)
1049 2013-12-01 14:17:38 <sipa> but zerocoin offers true anonimity
1050 2013-12-01 14:17:55 <sipa> that doesn't mean we should avoid privacy leaks in bitcoin
1051 2013-12-01 14:18:08 <sipa> generating a new address is trivial
1052 2013-12-01 14:18:20 rescrv1 has joined
1053 2013-12-01 14:18:46 <edulix> sipa: but how me using always my donation account, which is already public and notorious, is going to affect privacy?
1054 2013-12-01 14:18:51 <edulix> donations*
1055 2013-12-01 14:18:54 <sipa> yes
1056 2013-12-01 14:19:21 <sipa> it makes it obvious which of your transaction outputs are yours, and which are payments
1057 2013-12-01 14:19:48 <sipa> using a new change address makes that information less obvious
1058 2013-12-01 14:20:04 <sipa> it doesn't hide it, but it's such a cheap thing to do that shouldn't care about it
1059 2013-12-01 14:20:17 <edulix> sipa: my donations account will be automatized for this kind of stuff and the automation of transactions will in any case be really noticable
1060 2013-12-01 14:20:25 <edulix> so that's a given
1061 2013-12-01 14:20:34 <sipa> it's still a good practice
1062 2013-12-01 14:20:44 <sipa> addresses were really intended to just be single use
1063 2013-12-01 14:20:51 <edulix> I see
1064 2013-12-01 14:21:00 <sipa> given how bitcoin and its.ecosystem.work right now, that is hard
1065 2013-12-01 14:21:25 <sipa> but for example using the payment protocol that is beig developed, addresses are negotiated on the fly when doing a transaction
1066 2013-12-01 14:21:34 <sipa> so there is no cost to avoiding reuse
1067 2013-12-01 14:21:44 <edulix> well I'll try to find a python library that does what I need automatically, and hopefully it does it in a generic more secure way as you say
1068 2013-12-01 14:21:49 <edulix> bitnotar probably does it :P
1069 2013-12-01 14:22:07 <sipa> there is another difficulty with new addresses all the time, and that is backup
1070 2013-12-01 14:22:24 <sipa> for which the solution is deterministic wallets
1071 2013-12-01 14:22:27 <edulix> sipa: yeah and btcd to the rescue?
1072 2013-12-01 14:22:49 <sipa> where you don't need to backup after every newly generated key
1073 2013-12-01 14:22:53 <sipa> hmm?
1074 2013-12-01 14:23:41 <edulix> uhm maybe it's not the correct name. I was thinking about the bitcoin client programmed in go
1075 2013-12-01 14:23:57 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1076 2013-12-01 14:24:14 <edulix> what's its name? it separates the storage of the blockchain from the wallet/account info
1077 2013-12-01 14:24:31 <sipa> that is certainly the right way to go, but has nothing to do with this
1078 2013-12-01 14:25:14 <sipa> separating the blockchain and the wallet doesn't mean you making backups of the wallet is any different
1079 2013-12-01 14:27:05 <edulix> sipa: okey, I don't know how backups work internally in the official client, I assumed they were quite "heavy" :-P
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1082 2013-12-01 14:28:54 <sipa> they're trivial
1083 2013-12-01 14:28:57 <sipa> there is an rpc command to make a wallet backup
1084 2013-12-01 14:30:05 <tholenst> why isn't the blockchain and the wallet more separated in bitcoind? was that a concious design decision?
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1086 2013-12-01 14:31:37 <edulix> sipa: what do you think o the service proofofexistence.com, do you have any kind of opinion? I'm trying to do the same, but opensource and donations-based. just as a way to know more how bitcoin works, as an exercise =)
1087 2013-12-01 14:32:43 <gmaxwell> The proof of existance person contacted me the other day, looks like he's looking into moving to a merged mining approach. hurrah.
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1089 2013-12-01 14:33:17 <edulix> gmaxwell: merged mining?
1090 2013-12-01 14:33:29 dermoth has quit (home!~thomas@dsl-216-221-33-93.mtl.aei.ca|Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1091 2013-12-01 14:33:31 <sipa> tholenst: historic reasons
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1093 2013-12-01 14:33:39 <tholenst> sipa: ty
1094 2013-12-01 14:33:46 <edulix> gmaxwell: what does merged mining approach mean? :-P
1095 2013-12-01 14:33:50 <sipa> tholenst: satoshi just wrote them in a very tightly integrated single codebase that did both
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1097 2013-12-01 14:34:06 <gmaxwell> edulix: UukGoblin will explain it to you if he's here.
1098 2013-12-01 14:34:20 <gmaxwell> I need to sleep.
1099 2013-12-01 14:34:39 <sipa> tholenst: it's certainly something we want to get rid of, but code changes to the reference client take time
1100 2013-12-01 14:34:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: g'night!
1101 2013-12-01 14:34:57 <sipa> or g'morning :p
1102 2013-12-01 14:35:05 <tholenst> sipa: yeah i understand that... i'll try to get at least one unit test for it done now!
1103 2013-12-01 14:35:14 <sipa> ?
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1105 2013-12-01 14:35:33 <sipa> what are you working on?
1106 2013-12-01 14:35:49 <tholenst> oh just trying to get a start on it, so writing unit tests for uint256.h
1107 2013-12-01 14:35:59 <sipa> ok, cool
1108 2013-12-01 14:36:08 <tholenst> not that they are particularly needed as it's fairly trivial, but there aren't any yet
1109 2013-12-01 14:36:14 <edulix> gmaxwell: good night =)
1110 2013-12-01 14:36:19 <sipa> oh wow, really?
1111 2013-12-01 14:36:28 <sipa> tholenst: we need them indeed then!
1112 2013-12-01 14:36:50 <tholenst> well, there are some rudimentary from what i can see, but nothing systematic
1113 2013-12-01 14:37:41 * edulix wonders how merged mining can be used for proof of existence
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1117 2013-12-01 14:40:06 <pigeons> edulix: the OP_RETURN in the bitcoin TX can point to the hash of the TX in the merged chain I guess
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1119 2013-12-01 14:40:18 <gmaxwell> gah stop!
1120 2013-12-01 14:40:26 <gmaxwell> now I have to stay up and educate people
1121 2013-12-01 14:40:32 <edulix> hahaha
1122 2013-12-01 14:41:02 <gmaxwell> edulix: to prove something existed you just have to provide a sequence of hashes that connects it to a block header in the chain.
1123 2013-12-01 14:41:11 <gmaxwell> you don't need to add any junk data to the blockchain at all
1124 2013-12-01 14:42:18 <gmaxwell> this avoids (1) being parasitic and abusing other people (including people not even born yet) for your data that they care nothing about, (2) makes it less likely anyone will want to censor you, (3) gives you effectively unlimited scalablity without transactions fees.
1125 2013-12-01 14:42:59 <gmaxwell> it's pretty straight forward, we already have a hash commitment in most blocks used for merged mining. With miner cooperation you just add a hashroot to the merged mining tree.
1126 2013-12-01 14:43:15 <edulix> gmaxwell: okey seems really interesting, but I don't see how can does the "provide a sequence of hashes related to my file hash" work
1127 2013-12-01 14:43:30 <edulix> ok
1128 2013-12-01 14:43:36 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin made an implementation of this a while back for p2pool though its somewhat bitrotted, https://github.com/goblin/chronobit
1129 2013-12-01 14:44:01 <edulix> yeah I saw chronobit, I didn't know it was that much cool or how it worked
1130 2013-12-01 14:44:08 <gmaxwell> edulix: do you understand how the hashtrees in bitcoin let you prove a block contains a transaction compactly?
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1132 2013-12-01 14:45:18 <edulix> gmaxwell: I have the notion, you just hash part of tree and refer to that part of tree by the hash, and this can be done multiple times
1133 2013-12-01 14:45:49 <edulix> right? =)
1134 2013-12-01 14:46:42 <gmaxwell> those words are true, but I'm not sure how completely you grasp the idea.
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1137 2013-12-01 14:48:07 * edulix reading again about merkle hash trees, gmaxwell
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1139 2013-12-01 14:51:04 <sipa> edulix: so, a block header constains H(H(tx1,tx2),H(tx3,tx4)), and you trust the block header
1140 2013-12-01 14:51:18 <sipa> edulix: how do i prove to you that tx3 in in that block?
1141 2013-12-01 14:52:31 <CodeShark> would a scheme be possible to allow you to prove that a particular transaction is NOT in a block as well as prove it IS in a block requiring only O(log n) hashes?
1142 2013-12-01 14:52:40 <edulix> sipa: you get a=H(tx1,tx2) (you don't have to calculate it), and first do b=H(tx3,tx4), then hash those two too with H(a,b) and check
1143 2013-12-01 14:53:14 <sipa> CodeShark: yes, if the tx's are ordered by hash
1144 2013-12-01 14:53:23 <sipa> (and are required to be)
1145 2013-12-01 14:53:39 <sipa> edulix: so, what do i need to give you?
1146 2013-12-01 14:53:51 <CodeShark> hmmm - perhaps it should be required then
1147 2013-12-01 14:53:56 <CodeShark> the advantages seem quite immense
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1149 2013-12-01 14:54:11 <sipa> CodeShark: in a UTXO commitment they are
1150 2013-12-01 14:54:46 <edulix> sipa: well I have the master hash included in the block. I need tx3,tx4, and a=H(tx1,tx2)
1151 2013-12-01 14:54:53 <sipa> edulix: indeed
1152 2013-12-01 14:55:18 <sipa> edulix: what if there were 1024 transactions, and 10 levels of hashes, and i want to prove to you that tx1 is in it?
1153 2013-12-01 14:55:51 <sipa> but inside blocks... would be useful too, but it would require pretty different rules than we have now, and a different SPV filtering mechanism
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1155 2013-12-01 14:58:51 <CodeShark> the main subtleties seem to be the generation transaction and dependency chains
1156 2013-12-01 14:58:58 <edulix> sipa: I need 10 hashes I think. anyway, my question is, in what part of that can I put the hash of my file(s)? I suppose the idea is to add another node?
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1158 2013-12-01 14:59:13 <CodeShark> other than that it's just a sort
1159 2013-12-01 14:59:22 <sipa> edulix: nowhere!
1160 2013-12-01 14:59:37 <edulix> okey nowhere, then where is the link :P
1161 2013-12-01 14:59:39 <sipa> edulix: you give the miner a bunch of stuff to commit to
1162 2013-12-01 14:59:43 <edulix> ok
1163 2013-12-01 14:59:52 <sipa> edulix: he puts them in a merkle tree
1164 2013-12-01 15:00:13 <sipa> edulix: he gives you the chain from your entry to the root in that merkle tree
1165 2013-12-01 15:00:18 <sipa> edulix: and he puts the root in the block
1166 2013-12-01 15:00:28 <tholenst> btw, you can prove non-existence of a hash in principle with the computational integrity work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRcPReUpkcU) but it's not yet practical
1167 2013-12-01 15:00:54 <sipa> edulix: so only one entry ever goes in the block chain, and it can commit to an infinite number of entries
1168 2013-12-01 15:01:09 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1169 2013-12-01 15:01:12 <sipa> in return, the holder has to remember the merkle chain
1170 2013-12-01 15:01:20 <sipa> which is indeed O(log n)
1171 2013-12-01 15:02:48 <CodeShark> is there a way that different nodes on the network can take on the task of verifying only subsets of transactions without any appreciable loss in overall security
1172 2013-12-01 15:02:51 <edulix> sipa: what I meant is that you gave the minner a hash to put in the merkle tree, which seems to me that's what you just said
1173 2013-12-01 15:03:01 <sipa> edulix: not in THE merkle tree
1174 2013-12-01 15:03:22 <sipa> edulix: in a separate one, which does not have anything to do with transactions, and only exists in the miner's system
1175 2013-12-01 15:03:37 <CodeShark> is there any way to permanently prune spent transactions so that future verifiers no longer have to check signatures?
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1177 2013-12-01 15:03:43 <CodeShark> without an appreciable loss in security
1178 2013-12-01 15:03:45 <edulix> sipa: okey, so it's a separate merkle tree, I see
1179 2013-12-01 15:03:46 <sipa> CodeShark: not in a zero-trust way, no
1180 2013-12-01 15:04:02 <sipa> CodeShark: so all depends on what you call 'appreciable'
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1184 2013-12-01 15:04:26 <CodeShark> I guess resistant to sybil
1185 2013-12-01 15:04:46 <tholenst> well, again if you could make the computational integrity work practicable -- it wouldn't be hard :(
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1187 2013-12-01 15:05:29 <sipa> CodeShark: if we have committed UTXO sets, yes
1188 2013-12-01 15:05:46 <sipa> CodeShark: then i can give you a dump of the utxo set at some block, and the block header before and after it
1189 2013-12-01 15:06:00 <sipa> enough for you to trust the PoW in that chain, resulting in your trusting that UTXO set
1190 2013-12-01 15:06:07 <sipa> and then doing full verification as of that block
1191 2013-12-01 15:06:57 * edulix reading about bitcoin block to see how the commitment thing works
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1193 2013-12-01 15:07:09 <sipa> edulix: it has nothing to do with bitcoin!
1194 2013-12-01 15:07:31 <sipa> edulix: the miner just builds a tree of stuff to commit to, gives the merkle paths to the committers, and puts the hash in a block
1195 2013-12-01 15:08:00 <CodeShark> sipa: the only downside I can see to that scheme (but perhaps it's actually a good thing) is greater complexity in constructing blocks
1196 2013-12-01 15:08:05 <sipa> it just accidentally uses a mechanism similar to how bitcoin commits to transactions in blocks
1197 2013-12-01 15:08:17 <sipa> CodeShark: constructing blocks is equally hard
1198 2013-12-01 15:08:25 <sipa> CodeShark: verifying them is significantly harder, however
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1200 2013-12-01 15:09:08 <CodeShark> well, right now you can just mine a single transaction in a block and not have to prove you know anything at all about the utxo set
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1202 2013-12-01 15:09:14 <CodeShark> so this would be a good thing, methinks
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1204 2013-12-01 15:09:37 <sipa> ha, right
1205 2013-12-01 15:09:50 <sipa> it would prevent the cheap only-coinbase block construction
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1208 2013-12-01 15:12:33 <CodeShark> so while we're going in this direction, it seems to make almost too much sense to use txout hashes directly rather than the tx hash + output index scheme
1209 2013-12-01 15:12:41 <sipa> edulix: oh, by "X commits to Y" we really just mean: "X is a data structure that could not have been constructed without knowing Y"
1210 2013-12-01 15:13:12 <CodeShark> each block could point directly to a set of utxo objects to be destroyed and a set to be created
1211 2013-12-01 15:13:13 <edulix> sipa: yeah, like a merkle tree
1212 2013-12-01 15:13:20 <sipa> edulix: or the block chain!
1213 2013-12-01 15:13:25 <edulix> sipa: yes
1214 2013-12-01 15:13:28 <sipa> edulix: each bitcoin blocks commits to its ancestor
1215 2013-12-01 15:14:13 <edulix> sipa: because inside each block you have the hash of the previous block, you have to know it when creating a new block
1216 2013-12-01 15:14:21 <CodeShark> instead of the inputs requiring hashes of the entire transaction whose outputs they claim, they should just directly use hashes of txouts they are spending
1217 2013-12-01 15:14:50 <sipa> CodeShark: interesting idea
1218 2013-12-01 15:15:43 <sipa> that would be one hell of a hard fork though...
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1220 2013-12-01 15:15:55 <sipa> (it changes both all verification nodes and all wallet software)
1221 2013-12-01 15:15:57 <CodeShark> perhaps time to start a new coin :p
1222 2013-12-01 15:16:12 <sipa> heh, if we do that, i think there are better ideas already :)
1223 2013-12-01 15:16:38 <sipa> petertodd's TXO commitment trees sound very cool
1224 2013-12-01 15:17:27 <CodeShark> and if we can add a way to charge rent for utxo space as part of the scheme while we're at it⦠:p
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1226 2013-12-01 15:20:12 <edulix> sipa: what I don't get is that the proposal to use a different merkle tree that only exist in the miner system, for the "proofs of existence". but if it exists only in the miners system and not in the tx merkle tree, how is it referenced, where is the top hash of the merkle tree link to the blockchain?
1227 2013-12-01 15:20:18 * edulix feels silly :P
1228 2013-12-01 15:20:51 <edulix> I'm new to the terminology and I'm not even native speaker so sorry for the trouble
1229 2013-12-01 15:21:04 <sipa> edulix: it just has to be somewhere in a block
1230 2013-12-01 15:21:21 <sipa> edulix: the typical place is the scriptSig of the coinbase transaction
1231 2013-12-01 15:21:27 <sipa> which is allowed to contain 100 bytes of random data
1232 2013-12-01 15:21:38 <edulix> oh ok, that makes sense
1233 2013-12-01 15:22:34 <edulix> sipa: so this doesn't require a change in the bitcoin protocol, just in the miner's software
1234 2013-12-01 15:22:48 <sipa> indeed
1235 2013-12-01 15:22:51 <sipa> it also just exists
1236 2013-12-01 15:22:55 <edulix> =)
1237 2013-12-01 15:22:57 <sipa> but as gmaxwell says, it bitrotted
1238 2013-12-01 15:23:32 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1239 2013-12-01 15:24:17 <edulix> sipa: it exists but no-one is using it I guess, so I'd have to start doing it myself. I mean, why any miner pool is going to put this extra info in the scriptSig
1240 2013-12-01 15:24:37 <sipa> because you pay them for it, obviously :p
1241 2013-12-01 15:24:37 <gmaxwell> They already do for all these worthless merged mined coins.
1242 2013-12-01 15:24:51 <sipa> (also, it costs ~nothing to them)
1243 2013-12-01 15:25:02 <edulix> sipa: yeah it costs nothing
1244 2013-12-01 15:25:16 <gmaxwell> And if someone builds a decent tool for it I've already got soft commitments from a big chunk of hashpwoer that they'll run it just to keep garbage out of the chain.
1245 2013-12-01 15:26:34 <edulix> sipa: but you could do the same without having to change mining software, just instead of creating one hash per "proof of existence", group those proofs in ~ a single transaction per block" max :-P
1246 2013-12-01 15:26:51 <edulix> gmaxwell: oh that sounds nice
1247 2013-12-01 15:26:54 <sipa> except the transaction needs to be valid
1248 2013-12-01 15:27:03 <gmaxwell> Also it isn't "naturally unique" if you do that.
1249 2013-12-01 15:27:06 <sipa> so you're creating junk to add to the chain in order to do so
1250 2013-12-01 15:27:30 <gmaxwell> meaning that then the next guy who wants to do that comes along he'll just add another one and another one, and you end up back with O(N) scaling instead of O(1)
1251 2013-12-01 15:27:59 <sipa> yeah, the coinbase input is the only place where it's completely acceptable to put arbitrary data
1252 2013-12-01 15:27:59 <edulix> gmaxwell: yeah, that's true, I'm not the only one trying to do this kind of stuff
1253 2013-12-01 15:28:03 <sipa> as it is naturally limited
1254 2013-12-01 15:29:13 <edulix> sipa: actually my idea is quite more ambitious than proof of existence, and it could generate millions of transactions if used just like proof of existence
1255 2013-12-01 15:29:28 <edulix> so I'm quite interested in ways to scale it up
1256 2013-12-01 15:29:29 <edulix> xD
1257 2013-12-01 15:30:06 <edulix> because it also comes at a price too, and I definitely don't want to put lots of junk
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1261 2013-12-01 15:33:30 <edulix> gmaxwell: but how does the "many people want to put information in the alternative merkle tree" works? I guess that seems like another possible new "market"
1262 2013-12-01 15:33:40 Alina-malina has joined
1263 2013-12-01 15:33:48 <edulix> easily
1264 2013-12-01 15:34:47 <gmaxwell> edulix: it just means there needs to be some protocol to communicate and collect the data for that. the nice thing is that you can make potentially it hierarchical with small overhead.... e.g. I can aggregate a bunch of messages, and just give my root to someone else.
1265 2013-12-01 15:36:30 <edulix> gmaxwell: okey maybe I will talk with the author of proofofexistence about this, I believe we can work this out. I have already spoken about other things with him =)
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1268 2013-12-01 15:39:52 <JyZyXEL> are there any handy tools that can be used to make qrcodes out of the base 58 wallet import keys?
1269 2013-12-01 15:41:51 <edulix> does the bitcoin client usually downloads the whole bitcoin tree including all transactions, or only the blockheaders? does it store everything or just blocks?
1270 2013-12-01 15:42:05 <edulix> just blockheaders*
1271 2013-12-01 15:42:22 <edulix> I've read that the whole blockchain is currently like 11GiB
1272 2013-12-01 15:42:35 <sipa> it downloads and stores everything
1273 2013-12-01 15:42:44 <sipa> it at least has to download everything and process it
1274 2013-12-01 15:42:57 <sipa> it doesn't necessarily have to store everything, but right now, we do
1275 2013-12-01 15:43:39 Subo1977_ has joined
1276 2013-12-01 15:44:20 <edulix> sipa: true, just checked it, .bitcoin takes 15GB :P
1277 2013-12-01 15:45:05 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1278 2013-12-01 15:45:47 <edulix> sipa: if I wanted to search for all transactions related to an address, I suppose it's not stored in a searchable manner but just in "raw" format, so I'd have to go through all the files, right?
1279 2013-12-01 15:46:45 <edulix> I wonder if there's any existing simple utility that translates this info into a SQL/noSQL database, so that one doesn't have to rely on third party websites like blockchain.info
1280 2013-12-01 15:47:08 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1281 2013-12-01 15:47:24 <danneu> edulix: there are tools like https://github.com/bitcoin-abe/bitcoin-abe and libbitcoin
1282 2013-12-01 15:47:48 <edulix> danneu: thanks
1283 2013-12-01 15:47:52 drayah has joined
1284 2013-12-01 15:48:22 <edulix> and it's even in python =)
1285 2013-12-01 15:48:23 <sipa> edulix: for historical transactions, or for future transactions?
1286 2013-12-01 15:48:44 <gmaxwell> a future transaction explorer would be neat.
1287 2013-12-01 15:48:55 <edulix> sipa: for historical, in the blockchain, I mean
1288 2013-12-01 15:49:09 <sipa> may i ask what for?
1289 2013-12-01 15:49:09 <edulix> I don't know anything about how future transactions are handled though xD
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1291 2013-12-01 15:49:54 <danneu> what would a future txn explorer entail?
1292 2013-12-01 15:50:06 <edulix> sipa: currently it was just curiosity. in the past, I wondered this just because I wanted to be able to let anyone to find the "proof of existence" by themselves in the blockchain
1293 2013-12-01 15:50:34 dirzet has joined
1294 2013-12-01 15:50:35 <sipa> edulix: you cannot 'find' it, you must know about
1295 2013-12-01 15:50:45 <sipa> edulix: you need to have the proof for yourself
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1297 2013-12-01 15:51:52 <edulix> sipa: the ideas was: try to locate the hash in the blockchain to see when it was committed (if it was). so basically you would calculate the two receiving addresses, then find if those addresses received money with the same single transaction, and at what time/which block
1298 2013-12-01 15:52:18 <sipa> edulix: the hash is not supposed to be in the blockchain at all!
1299 2013-12-01 15:52:36 <edulix> sipa: as proofofexistence works currently, it does
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1302 2013-12-01 15:52:47 <sipa> then please don't encourage it
1303 2013-12-01 15:52:58 <edulix> sipa: of course, I will not encourage it
1304 2013-12-01 15:53:36 <edulix> sipa: and thanks for your help and patience, any service with the same idea that I might create would not do that kind of stuff
1305 2013-12-01 15:54:18 <danneu> i suppose the idea is to lean on as many gentleman's agreements as possible to postpone the inevitable, creeping abuse of the blockchain at large
1306 2013-12-01 15:54:51 <edulix> danneu: which can be cut just by setting high feeds
1307 2013-12-01 15:54:53 <edulix> fees*
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1309 2013-12-01 15:55:01 <gmaxwell> danneu: well the abuse is general backtopped by fees at some point.
1310 2013-12-01 15:55:23 <edulix> gmaxwell: but high fees is actually a problem, it stops the real economy use of bitcoin
1311 2013-12-01 15:55:25 <gmaxwell> it's not just about preventing abuse, it's about shuting applications onto solutions that scale and won't just become uneconomic.
1312 2013-12-01 15:55:56 <gmaxwell> edulix: certantly adding more non-currency use load doesn't help that. :)
1313 2013-12-01 15:56:06 <danneu> i guess i misunderstood sipa's "then please don't encourage it"
1314 2013-12-01 15:56:36 <sipa> don't encourage systems that rely on storing data in the blockchain
1315 2013-12-01 15:56:53 <Apocalyptic> ^^
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1320 2013-12-01 15:57:47 <edulix> anyway, have you thought about technical ways to reduce fees? because high fees will make buying something for 5US$ (equivalent) not worthy to be done in bitcoin, and we're aproaching that
1321 2013-12-01 15:57:53 <danneu> even if the data is pruned, it's still in the blockchain proper
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1323 2013-12-01 15:58:26 <Luke-Jr> edulix: compression like coinjoin reduces fees
1324 2013-12-01 15:58:30 <gmaxwell> danneu: doesn't do you any good if you have no way to search it.
1325 2013-12-01 15:58:32 <Luke-Jr> off-chain transactions can avoid them entirely
1326 2013-12-01 15:58:50 <edulix> Luke-Jr: off-chain transactions centralize things
1327 2013-12-01 15:58:56 <Luke-Jr> edulix: not inherently
1328 2013-12-01 15:59:00 <gmaxwell> edulix: there are lots of ways to transact that don't require putting every low value transaction directly in the blockchain, usually with other benefits along the way.
1329 2013-12-01 15:59:00 <sipa> edulix: so does allowing more transactions
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1333 2013-12-01 15:59:20 <sipa> bitcoin is a compromise between decentralized verification and scalability of transaction rates
1334 2013-12-01 15:59:23 <danneu> gmaxwell: yeah, i see your point now
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1337 2013-12-01 16:00:33 * edulix reading about coinjoin
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1341 2013-12-01 16:01:19 <saracen> Somebody is actually crawling my "database" of bitcoin private keys ;x
1342 2013-12-01 16:01:27 <sipa> lol
1343 2013-12-01 16:01:31 <gmaxwell> There are tradeoffs, but a purely centeralized system is only one option. You can use distributed systems (e.g. a chaum bank spread among 5 parties), micropayment channels, trade via tamper resistant hardware ("othercoin"), probablistic payments, and â indeed centeralized systems. potentially to transact. I don't know which of these systems will be popular in the future... but I know some will be because they can provide some important ...
1344 2013-12-01 16:01:35 jcorgan has joined
1345 2013-12-01 16:01:37 <gmaxwell> ... advantages.
1346 2013-12-01 16:02:07 <gmaxwell> E.g. instantly irreversable transactions, strong privacy, or completely offline operation.
1347 2013-12-01 16:03:53 <edulix> yes, hopefully one of those not-centralized ways of offchain-transaction methods gets popular and is good enough
1348 2013-12-01 16:03:58 <tholenst> saracen: well, you have no "robots.txt"... you're tricking them into it!
1349 2013-12-01 16:04:16 <Luke-Jr> also, there's a big difference between centralised currency and centralised transactions
1350 2013-12-01 16:04:18 wizkid057 has joined
1351 2013-12-01 16:04:47 <Luke-Jr> for example, you can choose *which* centralised off-chain transaction systems you will use
1352 2013-12-01 16:04:50 <gmaxwell> Yea, I think even centeralized systems have their placeâ if the right controls are instuted. Bitcoin makes it very easy for someone to prove they aren't fractional reserve, for example.
1353 2013-12-01 16:04:55 drayah has joined
1354 2013-12-01 16:05:42 <sipa> i've come to realize that "decentralization" isn't really what we're looking for - decentralization is really just about not having a single point of failure
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1357 2013-12-01 16:05:55 <sipa> what we want is trustlessness
1358 2013-12-01 16:06:03 <gmaxwell> though of course I prefer the other sorts of options. But, for example, if visa announced tomorrow that they were going to support clearing payment denominated in bitcoin on their existing card network, I'd consider that good news... even if its not the kind of payment networks I want the future to use.
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1360 2013-12-01 16:06:12 <sipa> or the ability to not need trust, or whatever to call that
1361 2013-12-01 16:06:19 <edulix> sipa: yeah but not having a single point of failure is part of that
1362 2013-12-01 16:06:26 <sipa> they are related, sure
1363 2013-12-01 16:06:34 * jcorgan distributed systems are robust
1364 2013-12-01 16:06:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: ! hm that neatly fixes the tension that shows up between distributed vs decenteralized. I think I've mostly meant decenteralized to be distributed and trustless.
1365 2013-12-01 16:07:01 Gohiis has joined
1366 2013-12-01 16:07:04 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: visa is highly distributed, at least from an infrastructure perspective. :)
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1368 2013-12-01 16:07:12 <gmaxwell> as is the USD
1369 2013-12-01 16:07:18 <gmaxwell> but neither are trustless.
1370 2013-12-01 16:07:24 <sipa> DNS is distributed, but moderately decentralized - but not trustless at all
1371 2013-12-01 16:07:34 <edulix> sipa: actually, with bitcoin you don't have a single point of trust. you trust the network, that's the "trustlessness" part of it
1372 2013-12-01 16:07:46 <sipa> edulix: yes, exactly
1373 2013-12-01 16:08:04 <sipa> but decentralization is just one way of obtaining trustlessness
1374 2013-12-01 16:08:14 <sipa> and it doesn't cover it entirely
1375 2013-12-01 16:08:21 <gmaxwell> edulix: yes, so long as the network is a spherical cow. In reality things are more complicated.. consolidation of mining, distribution of full nodes, etc. ... all reduce the trustlessness somewhat.
1376 2013-12-01 16:08:25 <aphorise> sipa I'd say its the main 1 :-)
1377 2013-12-01 16:08:51 <gmaxwell> E.g. a strong zero knoweldge proof can give you something which is trueless (well if its not designated verifier), but isn't "decenteralized" at all.
1378 2013-12-01 16:08:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: indeed
1379 2013-12-01 16:09:01 <gmaxwell> er. s/trueless/trustless/
1380 2013-12-01 16:10:00 <sipa> aphorise: if we'd have a very expensive computation that could prove that everyone was playing fair and in a very obvious way, it would be trustless (as anyone could verify it cheaply) but it wouldn't be decentralized at all (maybe one needs a massive cluster to do the computation)
1381 2013-12-01 16:10:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: you could almost say the root problem with conventional currency, that bitcoin addresses, is all the trust that's required to make it work.
1382 2013-12-01 16:10:40 <sipa> (referring to SCIP-like ideas of 'outsourcing' blockchain verification)
1383 2013-12-01 16:10:50 <edulix> that's what I like about namecoin+ssl, that you remove the trust "that not even 1 out of ~150 CAs is corrupt" to "you trust that the majority of the network is not corrupt"
1384 2013-12-01 16:10:57 <sipa> gmaxwell: yep, technically, bitcoin is a horrible expensive and silly idea
1385 2013-12-01 16:11:16 <sipa> gmaxwell: it means suddenly everyone has to do the work that just one system could do
1386 2013-12-01 16:11:17 <edulix> and same with DNS, you don't have to trust your dns provider of course. trustlessness
1387 2013-12-01 16:11:21 metric has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1388 2013-12-01 16:11:34 kaawee has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1389 2013-12-01 16:11:36 <sipa> edulix: you have to trust the TLD registries
1390 2013-12-01 16:11:39 <Luke-Jr> edulix: the problem with namecoin is that "corrupt" includes good behaviour (such as court seizures, etc)
1391 2013-12-01 16:11:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: right. but its what we knew how to do.
1392 2013-12-01 16:11:47 <jcorgan> i think the trustless aspect comes from the fact that any node can validate the protocol, whereas the robustness comes from the fact that everything is distributed; any node could come and go without affecting the trustless part
1393 2013-12-01 16:11:54 <edulix> Luke-Jr: same happens with bitcoin
1394 2013-12-01 16:12:09 <Luke-Jr> edulix: no, because bitcoins are not exposed in the same way
1395 2013-12-01 16:12:13 <edulix> Luke-Jr: i.e. someone might have robbed you money
1396 2013-12-01 16:12:22 <Luke-Jr> a namecoin key affects everyone using namecoin
1397 2013-12-01 16:12:31 <Luke-Jr> bitcoins only affect the person who owns them
1398 2013-12-01 16:12:42 <Luke-Jr> so, a court can lock you up in jail until you turn over the bitcoins
1399 2013-12-01 16:13:01 <Luke-Jr> but if the court locks you up until you turn over the name, that name still works for you as long as you hold out in jail
1400 2013-12-01 16:13:09 <edulix> Luke-Jr: well if satoshi starts selling his/her coins, that can affect the whole network worth :P
1401 2013-12-01 16:13:21 <sipa> but satoshi cannot steal my coins
1402 2013-12-01 16:13:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: I rated about that https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=346008.msg3708416#msg3708416
1403 2013-12-01 16:13:45 Jewish_James has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1404 2013-12-01 16:14:00 <gmaxwell> edulix: exchange rates are overhyped. My bitcoins are awesome regardless of what the howling traders at mtgox think. :)
1405 2013-12-01 16:15:03 Jewish_James has joined
1406 2013-12-01 16:15:33 <edulix> gmaxwell: hehe
1407 2013-12-01 16:16:15 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1408 2013-12-01 16:17:10 MagicalTux has quit (Excess Flood)
1409 2013-12-01 16:17:50 MT`AwAy has joined
1410 2013-12-01 16:18:04 <Emcy> Luke-Jr thats not really a minus
1411 2013-12-01 16:18:16 <Emcy> also youll be too busy in jail to renew
1412 2013-12-01 16:18:39 <Luke-Jr> I suppose
1413 2013-12-01 16:19:11 <jcorgan> Emcy: think of all the fun you'll have when your fellow prisoners learn you have a bitcoin stash and want you to tell them how to access them
1414 2013-12-01 16:19:42 <Emcy> why wouldnt you just keep yopur mouth shut and your head down in jail
1415 2013-12-01 16:20:09 drayah has joined
1416 2013-12-01 16:20:13 <jcorgan> oh, i don't know, perhaps the powers that be will let it slip that you have btc, in a ploy to get the other prisoners to do their work for them
1417 2013-12-01 16:20:54 <edulix> even if namecoin has issues that cannot make it main-stream, the trustlessness of that system seems to me like a good property for new secure websites. like, you just have to trust the name you got is the correct one, right? (and that the name owner private keys etc are not stolen)
1418 2013-12-01 16:21:17 <edulix> that kind of trustlessness is very important, as sipa said
1419 2013-12-01 16:21:19 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1420 2013-12-01 16:21:57 <sipa> edulix: every heard of zooko's triangle?
1421 2013-12-01 16:22:09 <Emcy> are nmc really worth multi-dollar now
1422 2013-12-01 16:22:36 <edulix> sipa: yeah
1423 2013-12-01 16:22:52 drayah has joined
1424 2013-12-01 16:23:01 <edulix> sipa: that's what namecoin provides :P
1425 2013-12-01 16:23:12 <edulix> with a specific definition of "secure"
1426 2013-12-01 16:23:27 michael_lee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1427 2013-12-01 16:23:40 <sipa> it does make namesquatting worse, though
1428 2013-12-01 16:23:57 michael_lee has joined
1429 2013-12-01 16:24:06 <sipa> if all authentication is checking that the name is what you expect it to be, a typo can become a horrible problem
1430 2013-12-01 16:24:14 <edulix> sipa: I read it here some weeks ago, Aaron Swartzs blog http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/squarezooko
1431 2013-12-01 16:24:16 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1432 2013-12-01 16:24:37 <edulix> sipa: but a typo can become a horrible problem already :P it happens all the time
1433 2013-12-01 16:25:17 zyrox has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1434 2013-12-01 16:25:23 <jcorgan> localbitcon.com is quite the nastiness
1435 2013-12-01 16:25:33 <edulix> see :P
1436 2013-12-01 16:26:34 <edulix> anyway, this is just namecoin stuff, not bitcoin
1437 2013-12-01 16:26:38 <Emcy> you can get them handed over to the legit service sometimes when they are that blatant.
1438 2013-12-01 16:27:22 <Emcy> then again registries will go ahead and make it rain new tlds on the other hand
1439 2013-12-01 16:27:32 <Emcy> like .bike (??)
1440 2013-12-01 16:28:42 * gmaxwell waits for the defamation lawsuit related to neighborhood.bike
1441 2013-12-01 16:29:02 GMP has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1442 2013-12-01 16:30:09 slavik0329 has joined
1443 2013-12-01 16:30:59 <edulix> gmaxwell: you mention Gennaro, Gentry, Parno, and Raykova's 2012, this is the one ? http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/215
1444 2013-12-01 16:31:00 michael_lee has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1445 2013-12-01 16:31:41 <jcorgan> is there an accepted standard for converting X bits of entropy into word lists?
1446 2013-12-01 16:31:41 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1447 2013-12-01 16:31:48 <edulix> ok
1448 2013-12-01 16:32:22 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: pgpword list, and RFC 1760... in the bitcoin community? not really.
1449 2013-12-01 16:33:16 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1760
1450 2013-12-01 16:33:40 drayah has joined
1451 2013-12-01 16:35:07 <jcorgan> rfc1760 describes a one time password system
1452 2013-12-01 16:35:16 <Emcy> who made the eletrum wordlist then?
1453 2013-12-01 16:35:18 <edulix> one question about new transactions: if you createa block, you include the transactions you want, but you're not forced to included any transaction in any special order? for example, a transaction with no fees might never enter a new block
1454 2013-12-01 16:35:54 <sipa> edulix: if you don't like a transaction, the miner of the next block still might
1455 2013-12-01 16:36:14 <sipa> in which case you still have to do the work of validating it, but without being paid for it
1456 2013-12-01 16:36:44 <sipa> but yes, miners as a whole control what enters the blockchain and in what order
1457 2013-12-01 16:37:08 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1458 2013-12-01 16:37:09 <edulix> ok
1459 2013-12-01 16:37:12 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: yes by mapping 64 bit values to words. it's used outside of s/key to some extent.
1460 2013-12-01 16:39:11 zyrox has joined
1461 2013-12-01 16:39:17 drayah has joined
1462 2013-12-01 16:39:47 <jcorgan> i'll read the electrum source to see what they chose
1463 2013-12-01 16:39:53 <jcorgan> and perhaps why
1464 2013-12-01 16:40:14 <jcorgan> i thought there was some effort to standardize this on bct
1465 2013-12-01 16:40:19 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1469 2013-12-01 16:42:39 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: there is, on the bitcoin-development list, not done yetâ sorry I thought you were asking about previously establised stuff.
1470 2013-12-01 16:42:54 michael_lee has joined
1471 2013-12-01 16:43:09 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: electrum uses a scheme that maps groups of three words from a wordlist of ~4xxx into 32 bits.
1472 2013-12-01 16:43:28 <edulix> have you thought the i-know-its-crazy idea of calculating the balance of each address and start a new blockchain from there everyonce in a while? that could be scalable :-P
1473 2013-12-01 16:43:29 <jcorgan> got it, thanks
1474 2013-12-01 16:44:22 <edulix> I know, seems crazy..
1475 2013-12-01 16:44:39 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1476 2013-12-01 16:44:42 <gmaxwell> I like that plan, that way I can set all the lost coins to be mine.
1477 2013-12-01 16:45:15 <gmaxwell> edulix: the reason it doesn't work that was is that it's not trustless, and besides the bitcoin system doesn't work on 'balances'.
1478 2013-12-01 16:45:19 reizuki has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1479 2013-12-01 16:46:05 <gmaxwell> and pruning already gives you something as small as a balance without the trustfull reboot (though no fast bootstrapping at least on its own)
1480 2013-12-01 16:46:07 <edulix> gmaxwell: all lost coins would still be lost..
1481 2013-12-01 16:46:25 <sipa> also, the chainstate is effective all 'summary' that you can obtain in the current system
1482 2013-12-01 16:46:41 <gmaxwell> edulix: nope, says right here in the balance that you receieved the network and blindly accepted. All these coins are mine. yup.
1483 2013-12-01 16:47:00 <gmaxwell> There are much more interesting alternative ideas in any case, if you want to talk about storage scalablity.
1484 2013-12-01 16:47:04 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
1485 2013-12-01 16:47:21 <gmaxwell> e.g. we now know how to make the validating network basically storageless, though it comes with some tradeoffs.
1486 2013-12-01 16:47:27 <edulix> gmaxwell: what other ideas? yeah, I want to have less storage both in disk and ram
1487 2013-12-01 16:47:54 <gmaxwell> edulix: have you read the bitcoin whitepaper? storage is already not a big problem in the design.
1488 2013-12-01 16:48:20 <edulix> gmaxwell: yeah I read it two years ago, in the middle of reading it again..
1489 2013-12-01 16:48:36 <aphorise> gmaxwell any links to paper? - I'd be interested to read.
1490 2013-12-01 16:48:44 <sipa> bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
1491 2013-12-01 16:49:13 <edulix> gmaxwell: but as it's a blockchain, I understand that I could read the blockchain, validate it, and don't save the unnecessary data, just the data I might need
1492 2013-12-01 16:49:35 <edulix> uhm, but that's not so easy
1493 2013-12-01 16:49:47 <gmaxwell> its done.
1494 2013-12-01 16:49:57 <edulix> that makes it easier :P
1495 2013-12-01 16:50:49 <gmaxwell> We already seperate out just the data we need for future validation. .. we still store the historic data, but that is mostly because we need to review the p2p protocol so nodes could find the historic data at bootstrap time in a world where not every node has it.
1496 2013-12-01 16:51:01 Nesetalis has joined
1497 2013-12-01 16:51:17 <gmaxwell> but the far historic data is only used for bootstrapping new nodes and some of the debugging rpcs.
1498 2013-12-01 16:51:18 <Emcy> the torrent is already the de facto method
1499 2013-12-01 16:52:01 <Emcy> fair play, torrents have proven themselves to be hard to squash....
1500 2013-12-01 16:52:09 <gmaxwell> Emcy: please don't start pushing that centeralized junk as a solution there or you'll just piss me off.
1501 2013-12-01 16:52:24 <gmaxwell> hard to squash? without introducing trackers it didn't even work.
1502 2013-12-01 16:52:27 <Emcy> fix the p2p then :p
1503 2013-12-01 16:52:31 <gmaxwell> without anyone trying to attack it at all.
1504 2013-12-01 16:52:33 <sipa> we will
1505 2013-12-01 16:52:44 <edulix> gmaxwell: but for example memory usage is still a bit high, 400MB of RAM and counting
1506 2013-12-01 16:52:54 <edulix> can that be reduced too?
1507 2013-12-01 16:53:04 <sipa> everything can be reduced, if you make compromises
1508 2013-12-01 16:53:17 <sipa> like validation speed
1509 2013-12-01 16:53:41 <sipa> i think 400 MiB is very acceptable - how much does your browser use?
1510 2013-12-01 16:53:54 <edulix> sipa: my webserver doesn't run any web browser
1511 2013-12-01 16:53:57 <Emcy> that includes the utxo set too
1512 2013-12-01 16:54:06 <sipa> the UTXO set is not kept (entirely) in memory
1513 2013-12-01 16:54:10 Zarutian has joined
1514 2013-12-01 16:54:10 <sipa> just cached
1515 2013-12-01 16:54:23 <gmaxwell> edulix: so you want to operate a trustless currency in less memory then a simple web client uses?
1516 2013-12-01 16:54:26 <Emcy> oh
1517 2013-12-01 16:54:59 <sipa> well the request is reasonable - reducing memory footprint makes sense
1518 2013-12-01 16:55:02 <edulix> gmaxwell: I just point out, that this might be a problem for usecases like running the daemon in a server
1519 2013-12-01 16:55:07 <sipa> but the question is always what the cost is
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1521 2013-12-01 16:55:12 <Emcy> yeah you know weve got more power in these laptops than we could have dreamed of 10 years ago, make use of it.
1522 2013-12-01 16:55:42 <edulix> I have 12GB of RAM in my laptop, but my server has only 2GB
1523 2013-12-01 16:55:53 <gmaxwell> edulix: you shouldn't call something that can't use 400 MB ram a "server", you mean "a really anemic smarphone", I assume, since all the latest tablet stuff has 2gb ram.
1524 2013-12-01 16:55:55 <Emcy> tbh i have 2gb in my eeepc.....
1525 2013-12-01 16:56:02 <Emcy> from 2009
1526 2013-12-01 16:56:12 <gmaxwell> 2gb >> 400mbytes.
1527 2013-12-01 16:56:14 jcorgan has joined
1528 2013-12-01 16:56:37 <sipa> well, ideally you'd have a slider to set the memory usage
1529 2013-12-01 16:56:47 <sipa> and have the client make the compromise for you :)
1530 2013-12-01 16:56:50 <gmaxwell> the memory usage isn't undergoing any larger linear growth.
1531 2013-12-01 16:57:03 <Emcy> what about the udp sockets, that should help
1532 2013-12-01 16:57:05 Coincidental has joined
1533 2013-12-01 16:57:07 <gmaxwell> (a small amount of it grows linearly, the rest is stable)
1534 2013-12-01 16:57:07 <sipa> of course it is! we require some ~150 bytes for every new block!
1535 2013-12-01 16:57:09 <sipa> forever!
1536 2013-12-01 16:57:13 ovidiusoft has quit (Client Quit)
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1538 2013-12-01 16:57:46 <edulix> sipa: but it doesn't depend linearly for example on the number of transactions per block?
1539 2013-12-01 16:57:55 <gmaxwell> no
1540 2013-12-01 16:57:57 <edulix> nice
1541 2013-12-01 16:58:00 <edulix> nice to know =)
1542 2013-12-01 16:59:37 <edulix> so if tomorrow we get 100x transactions per block, would that be a problem somehow (apart from disk storage)? what about 1000x?
1543 2013-12-01 17:00:26 <sipa> we can't have 100x transactions per block
1544 2013-12-01 17:00:41 <sipa> blocks are (for now, at least) limited to 1 MB
1545 2013-12-01 17:00:47 <gmaxwell> it's not permited by the protocol rules, and if it were the network would probably spontainously fail due to running out of bandwidth (At least for your upper numbers)
1546 2013-12-01 17:00:48 ecurrency has joined
1547 2013-12-01 17:01:13 <jcorgan> that's a problem i'd like us to have to solve, though
1548 2013-12-01 17:01:34 <ecurrency> anyone know how or have instructions on how to install bitcoind on centos 5.10 ?
1549 2013-12-01 17:01:37 <edulix> hehe we'll it'd be good to think about what we would have to do :P
1550 2013-12-01 17:01:54 <edulix> but okey, I guess it's not yet a problem
1551 2013-12-01 17:02:22 <Emcy> a lot of these problems might solve themselves with time, if the sole focus of nurturing bitcoin isnt simply 'growing' it
1552 2013-12-01 17:03:18 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1553 2013-12-01 17:03:21 <edulix> Emcy: the limit of the size of a block was reached once already afaik, and it caused a split
1554 2013-12-01 17:03:32 <edulix> so to think about it in advance might be a good idea
1555 2013-12-01 17:03:47 <Emcy> thats not quite what happened
1556 2013-12-01 17:03:55 johnsoft has joined
1557 2013-12-01 17:03:58 <ecurrency> anyone know how or have instructions on how to install bitcoind on centos 5.10 ?
1558 2013-12-01 17:04:00 <Emcy> it was just a bug
1559 2013-12-01 17:04:30 <edulix> Emcy: okey, I am then misinformed :)
1560 2013-12-01 17:04:37 <gmaxwell> as emcy, and it wasn't size though the bug was triggered by larger blocks. it was also non-determinstic...
1561 2013-12-01 17:04:56 <Emcy> reaching the cap just backs up the mempool
1562 2013-12-01 17:05:03 <Emcy> which it could be argued is its natural state anyway
1563 2013-12-01 17:05:09 <jcorgan> ecurrency: you might find more centos users on #bitcoin
1564 2013-12-01 17:05:44 <edulix> I have to go now, it was a pleasure to talk with you people, I'll come back :)
1565 2013-12-01 17:05:45 debiantoruser has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1566 2013-12-01 17:06:11 <ecurrency> thanks jcorgan
1567 2013-12-01 17:06:48 agnostic98 has joined
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1573 2013-12-01 17:14:07 <gmaxwell> lol: http://directory.io/
1574 2013-12-01 17:15:24 <sipa> yeah :p
1575 2013-12-01 17:15:41 <sipa> i'm sure people are scraping it to build an address-based index for it
1576 2013-12-01 17:17:06 airfull has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1577 2013-12-01 17:18:10 <lianj> oO
1578 2013-12-01 17:19:06 <jcorgan> nah, let google do that :)
1579 2013-12-01 17:19:08 goedgoed has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1580 2013-12-01 17:21:18 nsh has quit (Changing host)
1581 2013-12-01 17:21:18 nsh has joined
1582 2013-12-01 17:21:26 <nsh> Page 1 out of 904625697166532776746648320380374280103671755200316906558262375061821325312 <--- this is for serious?
1583 2013-12-01 17:22:04 <sipa> yes
1584 2013-12-01 17:22:16 <sipa> (well, obviously it's not a database but generated on the fly)
1585 2013-12-01 17:22:54 <saracen> sipa: Lies! :P
1586 2013-12-01 17:23:06 <petertodd> sipa: given how long its takes to do various ones, I have to wonder if it generates all 0...n...
1587 2013-12-01 17:23:24 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
1588 2013-12-01 17:23:53 <saracen> It generates every page that is asked of it. It's not the fastest implementation of doing it though, so I keep a cache of the first few pages people often request
1589 2013-12-01 17:24:13 <saracen> People are crawling it though, and I've had comments on reddit actually asking if I can send them blurays (i made a joke in the thread)
1590 2013-12-01 17:24:17 jcorgan has joined
1591 2013-12-01 17:24:48 airfull has joined
1592 2013-12-01 17:24:58 <petertodd> saracen: "I need some material to fill in this crater in my backyard - nuclear attack you know - mind sending me the full DVD set?
1593 2013-12-01 17:25:02 <nsh> saracen, as long as you charge them ridiculously :)
1594 2013-12-01 17:25:04 msvb-lab has joined
1595 2013-12-01 17:25:24 <saracen> ha :)
1596 2013-12-01 17:26:09 <petertodd> saracen: of course, more like "I'm trying to make a blackhole"
1597 2013-12-01 17:26:31 reizuki has joined
1598 2013-12-01 17:26:39 michael_lee has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1599 2013-12-01 17:26:50 <saracen> Somebody has added it on hackernews, and it's actually got upvotes. I didn't think it would :(
1600 2013-12-01 17:27:02 michael_lee has joined
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1603 2013-12-01 17:30:12 <petertodd> lol, I'm at the dark wallet hackathon, and I literally *just* had a guy show it to me on his phone
1604 2013-12-01 17:31:01 <petertodd> saracen: bug: http://directory.io/904625697166532776746648320380374280103671755200316906558262375061821325313
1605 2013-12-01 17:31:06 <petertodd> should return a proper error message
1606 2013-12-01 17:31:28 <saracen> It does return 404, I just didnt add in a body
1607 2013-12-01 17:31:40 <saracen> And I couldnt be bothered to add the logic to check whether it was on the last page or not
1608 2013-12-01 17:31:44 jeewee has joined
1609 2013-12-01 17:32:10 jcorgan has joined
1610 2013-12-01 17:32:23 <gmaxwell> I wonder how many people are frantically trying to redeem the private key of zero.
1611 2013-12-01 17:32:39 <saracen> gmaxwell: Yeah, that was me back in march :(
1612 2013-12-01 17:32:54 <gmaxwell> totally unrelated, if you try to signmessage with the private key of zero you crash bitcoin with the assert at bitcoind: key.cpp:386: CPubKey CKey::GetPubKey() const: Assertion `fValid' failed.
1613 2013-12-01 17:32:58 <saracen> While bitcoin-qt displays an error when you add it, it still actually gets saved to the wallet though
1614 2013-12-01 17:33:01 <saracen> Which is a little annoying
1615 2013-12-01 17:33:21 <gmaxwell> s/signmessage/signrawtransaction.
1616 2013-12-01 17:34:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: ha, it should fail to accept the private key
1617 2013-12-01 17:34:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: reminds me, signmessage should take private keys optionally
1618 2013-12-01 17:35:00 <saracen> Hopefully this won't break too many peoples wallets. I think I've added that key, and 01 before
1619 2013-12-01 17:35:04 dd444 has joined
1620 2013-12-01 17:35:06 <saracen> and the balance shows up incorrectly as like 4 BTC
1621 2013-12-01 17:35:08 <gmaxwell> petertodd: would probably not be hard to make the address field also take a wif key.
1622 2013-12-01 17:35:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, that's enough
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1625 2013-12-01 17:39:21 <tyr1ck> Is this room alive?
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1628 2013-12-01 17:40:31 <sipa> tyr1ck: nope, sorry
1629 2013-12-01 17:40:43 <tyr1ck> ding!
1630 2013-12-01 17:41:36 <tyr1ck> I am trying to verify the merkle root of a block, given the two children nodes
1631 2013-12-01 17:41:36 <sipa> more seriously: sure, but asking something interesting is certainly more likely to cause liveliness than asking whether it's alive :)
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1633 2013-12-01 17:43:20 <tyr1ck> with my current understanding, I need to perform a hexToAscii, then flip the bits
1634 2013-12-01 17:43:49 <tyr1ck> on each child
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1636 2013-12-01 17:44:23 <haxar> is directory.io down already?
1637 2013-12-01 17:44:48 <tyr1ck> ... I am implementing this with JAVA... and suspect my hexToAscii is BROKEN, was wondering if someone could help me verify a few things
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1657 2013-12-01 18:15:11 <saracen> A don't think I realised just how many bitcoin users don't understand how it works. :(
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1659 2013-12-01 18:15:38 <Luke-Jr> saracen: I'd say the number of people who actually understand how Bitcoin works is under 20 most likely.
1660 2013-12-01 18:16:29 <jcorgan> bitcoin users don't need to know how it works, just trust that it does. But different users require different things to develop that trust.
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1666 2013-12-01 18:24:52 <mrkent> Searching for a co-founder for my company.
1667 2013-12-01 18:25:49 <deepc0re_> is the probability the same at every try to solve a sha265 block mining?
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1673 2013-12-01 18:28:21 <jcorgan> yes
1674 2013-12-01 18:29:03 <deepc0re_> so it uses a number from a RNG for every try or something?
1675 2013-12-01 18:30:02 <jcorgan> no, it modifies a nonce, and the hash operation results are distributed uniformly
1676 2013-12-01 18:30:20 <deepc0re_> i see
1677 2013-12-01 18:30:28 <jcorgan> and if the hash happens to have a certain number of leading zeroes or more, it wins
1678 2013-12-01 18:30:42 <jcorgan> and the probability of doing that is the same for every hash
1679 2013-12-01 18:30:44 <jcorgan> attempt
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1682 2013-12-01 18:34:03 <deepc0re_> so it is the nounce and a part from the previous block that creates the new hash for solving the new block?
1683 2013-12-01 18:34:09 <deepc0re_> nonce
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1685 2013-12-01 18:34:56 <jcorgan> the trial block header has a previous block hash in it, other fixed data, a hash of the block TXes, and the nonce
1686 2013-12-01 18:35:12 <deepc0re_> ok, thanks for explaining
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1692 2013-12-01 18:46:36 <gdoteof> is there a security concern with bitcointalk.org? has it genuinely been hijacked or is it bonked maintenance
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1697 2013-12-01 18:49:55 <Jason> what is the syntax for `sendmany` (done through ./bitcoind sendmany ...)?
1698 2013-12-01 18:50:19 <Jason> i'm having the hardest time trying to get that to work.
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1710 2013-12-01 19:05:42 <JyZyXEL> if you find two private keys that produce the same 160-bit hash, do both of the private keys have access to the coins listed for that wallet address?
1711 2013-12-01 19:06:16 <sipa> if it's coins sent to a hash(pubkey), yes
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1713 2013-12-01 19:06:33 <sipa> you can have coins directly sent to a pubkey too (though that's very uncommon now)
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1750 2013-12-01 19:45:00 <danneu> tyr1ck: what does hexToAscii do? is hex not already ascii?
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1755 2013-12-01 19:46:42 <benkay> heyo - if I generate a new receiving address and receive some bitcoins at that address, I can point someone at (for example) the blockchain.info page for that receiving address and they'll always be able to verify that those coins have not been spent?
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1758 2013-12-01 19:47:07 <benkay> "I can" -> "can I"
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1766 2013-12-01 19:49:52 <sipa> benkay: that only depends on whether you trust blockchain.info (and they have been known to be wrong in the past)
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1768 2013-12-01 19:50:19 <benkay> well, bc.i is just an example
1769 2013-12-01 19:50:32 <danneu> well, what would an example alternative be
1770 2013-12-01 19:50:41 <swulf--> no matter what service or what node you are, you can't be sure there isn't a transactino out there that spends the coins
1771 2013-12-01 19:50:42 <sipa> and my answer is identical for any blockexplorer
1772 2013-12-01 19:50:59 <sipa> if you trust them, you can trust them
1773 2013-12-01 19:51:07 <sipa> if you don't trust them, you shouldn't trust them
1774 2013-12-01 19:51:26 <benkay> let me give a concrete example
1775 2013-12-01 19:51:30 sp4ke has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1776 2013-12-01 19:51:34 <benkay> friend doesn't want to set up a bitcoin wallet, trusts my wallet setup.
1777 2013-12-01 19:51:39 <Jason> hi all
1778 2013-12-01 19:51:40 <Jason> ./bitcoind sendtoaddress address 0.00005300
1779 2013-12-01 19:51:40 <Jason> error: {"code":-4,"message":"Transaction amount too small"}
1780 2013-12-01 19:51:59 <Jason> any ideas on why i may be getting that error?
1781 2013-12-01 19:52:01 <benkay> i generate a new address specifically for friend, to which they send some coins.
1782 2013-12-01 19:52:05 <Jason> i thought the least I can send is 0.00000001.
1783 2013-12-01 19:52:10 <swulf--> Jason: your transaction amount is too small.
1784 2013-12-01 19:52:32 <Jason> swulf--: what's the smallest amount I can send?
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1786 2013-12-01 19:52:45 <swulf--> 0.000000001, but not with that interface :)
1787 2013-12-01 19:52:51 <Jason> swulf--: ah
1788 2013-12-01 19:52:54 <sipa> 0.00000000, but not with that interface
1789 2013-12-01 19:52:54 <Jason> swulf--: how about with bitcoind?
1790 2013-12-01 19:52:56 <swulf--> minus one zero there
1791 2013-12-01 19:53:00 <swulf--> typo
1792 2013-12-01 19:53:11 <swulf--> jason: you can use createrawtransaction (I think!)
1793 2013-12-01 19:53:18 <sipa> swulf--: won't work
1794 2013-12-01 19:53:18 <Jason> oh boy
1795 2013-12-01 19:53:21 <swulf--> sipa: won't?
1796 2013-12-01 19:53:25 <sipa> it will fail if you submit it to your own bitcoind
1797 2013-12-01 19:53:28 <swulf--> ah
1798 2013-12-01 19:53:31 <pankkake> 0.0000546 is the minimum, in the sense that it probably won't get relayed/mined if lower
1799 2013-12-01 19:53:34 <swulf--> Jason: looks like you need to use another client to build your transaction
1800 2013-12-01 19:53:35 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1801 2013-12-01 19:53:38 <Jason> pankkake: ah
1802 2013-12-01 19:53:39 <benkay> if we omit pending transactions for the sake of argument, anyone should be able to parse the blockchain and confirm that that address hasn't sent those coins on, right?
1803 2013-12-01 19:53:41 <Jason> swulf--: i can just round up
1804 2013-12-01 19:53:47 <sipa> looks like you should try avoiding such small outputs
1805 2013-12-01 19:53:58 <Jason> pankkake: i shall try rounding up from 0.0000546
1806 2013-12-01 19:53:58 <sipa> benkay: yes
1807 2013-12-01 19:54:02 <swulf--> or that:)
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1809 2013-12-01 19:54:06 <benkay> thanks sipa
1810 2013-12-01 19:54:29 <swulf--> sipa: will bitcoind allow the transaction if one of the other outputs are greather than some value?
1811 2013-12-01 19:54:40 <swulf--> greater*
1812 2013-12-01 19:54:48 <sipa> swulf--: no
1813 2013-12-01 19:55:00 <sipa> well, it will, if you configure it for a lower price per byte
1814 2013-12-01 19:55:05 <sipa> than the default
1815 2013-12-01 19:55:10 <swulf--> Didn't think so - otherwise change addresses would basically all count by default.
1816 2013-12-01 19:55:55 <sipa> the 0.0000546 value is just the result of "less than 3x the cost of an extra output being redeemed in blockchain space cost"
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1818 2013-12-01 19:56:18 <sipa> where the cost is 0.0001 BTC / kB, now, by default
1819 2013-12-01 19:56:32 <Jason> sipa: ahh
1820 2013-12-01 19:56:40 <Jason> sipa: got it
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1833 2013-12-01 20:10:12 <saracen> My server is being hammered. :( The turn around time for stupid people to create crawlers is quite remarkable
1834 2013-12-01 20:10:49 sp4ke has joined
1835 2013-12-01 20:11:36 <saracen> I should have implemented this in javascript :(
1836 2013-12-01 20:12:27 <sipa> it would be fun if people would still be crawling it then :p
1837 2013-12-01 20:12:41 <nsh> saracen, put out a torrent :P
1838 2013-12-01 20:13:11 <nsh> have a few hacked torrent clients generating chunks on the fly
1839 2013-12-01 20:13:32 airfull has joined
1840 2013-12-01 20:17:26 <saracen> nsh: That'd be pretty amusing :)
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1845 2013-12-01 20:19:39 <nsh> :)
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1855 2013-12-01 20:25:09 <jaakkos> lol the devs must be proud of all the users who dump due to directory.io
1856 2013-12-01 20:25:59 <sipa> dump?
1857 2013-12-01 20:26:55 <jaakkos> sell their coins, that is.
1858 2013-12-01 20:27:06 <sipa> people actually do that?
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1860 2013-12-01 20:27:22 <jaakkos> i don't really know, people just speculate other people are doing that.
1861 2013-12-01 20:27:28 <sipa> right
1862 2013-12-01 20:27:33 <jaakkos> but judging by some peoples' reactions, it might be the case for some
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1865 2013-12-01 20:29:20 <saracen> 20:23:47 < sipa> people actually do that?
1866 2013-12-01 20:29:23 <saracen> I hope not
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1868 2013-12-01 20:29:44 <saracen> I don't actually know how many hits I'm getting, I didn't really build anything to track that
1869 2013-12-01 20:29:58 <sipa> saracen: if this is part of a plot to buy cheap, well played!
1870 2013-12-01 20:30:16 <saracen> sipa: It really isn't. I didn't want to buy cheap. I wanted to sell high
1871 2013-12-01 20:30:22 <sipa> haha
1872 2013-12-01 20:30:50 <saracen> To be fair, the price was going down a little before. Maybe it's just coincidence.
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1874 2013-12-01 20:31:41 <danneu> i just see an r/bitcoin post with 31 upvotes regarding directory.io
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1876 2013-12-01 20:34:06 <saracen> Yeah, I think the majority of the traffic is just from people crawling. The posts on hackernews and reddit are fairly buried
1877 2013-12-01 20:34:10 <saracen> https://twitter.com/search?q=directory.io
1878 2013-12-01 20:34:16 <saracen> Lot of blame on twitter though.
1879 2013-12-01 20:34:33 n0n0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1880 2013-12-01 20:35:53 <warren> saracen: I'm soon going to publish a directory of atom in the ocean.
1881 2013-12-01 20:36:22 Emcy has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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1883 2013-12-01 20:36:57 <TD> what is directory.io?
1884 2013-12-01 20:37:06 <sipa> TD: have a look :D
1885 2013-12-01 20:37:11 <sipa> they hacked the bitcoinz!
1886 2013-12-01 20:37:39 <TD> lol
1887 2013-12-01 20:37:42 Emcy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1888 2013-12-01 20:37:52 <TD> that's a mighty flexible private key
1889 2013-12-01 20:38:01 <warren> sipa: NYT quotes core bitcoin developer sipa "they hacked the bitcoinz!"
1890 2013-12-01 20:38:48 Burritoh has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1891 2013-12-01 20:38:50 <Luke-Jr> lol
1892 2013-12-01 20:39:02 <warren> this site would be more useful if it had a search.
1893 2013-12-01 20:39:14 <warren> maybe Google will index it
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1897 2013-12-01 20:40:41 <tyr1ck> I am having issues arriving at the merkle root given the two children nodes
1898 2013-12-01 20:40:42 <tyr1ck> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/17676/verifying-mrkl-root-from-two-children-nodes-in-java
1899 2013-12-01 20:40:58 <tyr1ck> I have a question up that explains where I think my issues are
1900 2013-12-01 20:41:19 <tyr1ck> Could someone have a look and verify some of the outputs or my methodology in general
1901 2013-12-01 20:41:25 <shesek> saracen, perhaps you should add some note about what it means at the bottom...
1902 2013-12-01 20:41:47 <shesek> it seems to be causing some panic for some people :)
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1906 2013-12-01 20:43:42 <saracen> shesek: Maybe. It kind of ruins the joke though. Wondering whether this has some educational value.
1907 2013-12-01 20:43:46 <saracen> What do others think?
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1909 2013-12-01 20:44:06 <roconnor> saracen: I like it how it is
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1911 2013-12-01 20:44:29 <saracen> https://twitter.com/dloss/status/407247762716393472
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1913 2013-12-01 20:44:35 <saracen> tweets like this worry me a little, though
1914 2013-12-01 20:45:22 Zarutian has joined
1915 2013-12-01 20:45:47 <shesek> heh, well, its not like you lied or anything - it is a directory of all possible bitcoin private keys
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1919 2013-12-01 20:46:18 <tyr1ck> is it really?
1920 2013-12-01 20:46:23 <shesek> but some people might not take it the right way
1921 2013-12-01 20:46:46 <jaakkos> well it is the ultra-weak hands' shakeout!
1922 2013-12-01 20:46:47 <shesek> tyr1ck, it generates them on-the-fly, it doesn't actually store all of them nor its possible to search in it
1923 2013-12-01 20:46:50 <roconnor> wow. Bitcoiners are really an up-tight bunch
1924 2013-12-01 20:46:54 <tyr1ck> ahhh
1925 2013-12-01 20:46:54 <tyr1ck> lol
1926 2013-12-01 20:47:15 <shesek> someone made a nice summary in r/bitcoin of what it would take: "So, if you could use the entire planet as a hard drive, storing 1 byte per atom, using stars as fuel, and cycling through 1 trillion keys per second, you'd need 37 octillion Earths to store it, and 237 billion suns to power the device capable of doing it, all of which would take you 3.6717 octodecillion years."
1927 2013-12-01 20:47:18 edulix has joined
1928 2013-12-01 20:47:47 <shesek> (what it would take to make a searchable index, that is)
1929 2013-12-01 20:47:55 <warren> saracen: Someone is attacking multiple Bitcoin sites and using FUD in an attempt to make people panic and sell so they can buy cheap coins. *yawn*
1930 2013-12-01 20:47:56 <roconnor> shesek: Has anyone asked you to remove their private key from your listing?
1931 2013-12-01 20:48:17 <shesek> robocoin, its saracen's, not mine
1932 2013-12-01 20:48:31 <roconnor> er sorry
1933 2013-12-01 20:48:33 <shesek> and its pretty much impossible for anyone to find his own key in there
1934 2013-12-01 20:48:34 <roconnor> bad tab compeltion
1935 2013-12-01 20:48:46 tholenst has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1936 2013-12-01 20:48:46 <roconnor> saracen: Has anyone asked you to remove their private key from your listing?
1937 2013-12-01 20:49:04 <warren> roconnor: the entire site is meaningless, trying to make people panic over a non-issue
1938 2013-12-01 20:49:23 tholenst has joined
1939 2013-12-01 20:49:31 <shesek> warren, I don't think he's trying to make people panic, its just a joke that some people don't get
1940 2013-12-01 20:50:12 <saracen> I blame sipa.
1941 2013-12-01 20:50:24 <shesek> I personally find the reaction on twitter hilarious :)
1942 2013-12-01 20:50:25 <tholenst> i don't think your site is cause for the little correction :) but the tweets do make me laugh
1943 2013-12-01 20:50:29 * sipa denies EVERYTHING
1944 2013-12-01 20:50:30 Subo1977 has joined
1945 2013-12-01 20:50:36 Guest35828 has joined
1946 2013-12-01 20:51:01 <gavinandresen> "It took a lot of computing power to generateâ¦" is a big fat lie. Non-geeks won't get the humor and will be upsetâ¦.
1947 2013-12-01 20:51:08 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1948 2013-12-01 20:51:19 <shesek> but I do think a little note in the footer would be a good idea, before some idiot reporter makes an "BITCOIN HACKED!!!11!!" headline
1949 2013-12-01 20:51:34 <gavinandresen> I think a bitcoin hacked headline would be just fine.
1950 2013-12-01 20:51:40 <saracen> gavinandresen: Not an obvious enough joke? :(
1951 2013-12-01 20:51:42 <gavinandresen> Find out who the idiot reporters are and tarnish their reputation
1952 2013-12-01 20:51:47 galaxy7 has joined
1953 2013-12-01 20:51:52 <tholenst> well, i'm certain the the joke is not obvious for many people
1954 2013-12-01 20:52:04 Cryo has joined
1955 2013-12-01 20:52:05 Coincide_ has joined
1956 2013-12-01 20:52:08 Guest35828 has left ()
1957 2013-12-01 20:52:26 <warren> gavinandresen: pundits are 90% wrong and people don't remember it
1958 2013-12-01 20:52:40 <tholenst> it's not easy for most people to understand that you can in principle list all private keys and still there is no security leak
1959 2013-12-01 20:52:42 jago25_99 has joined
1960 2013-12-01 20:52:48 <goedgoed> I approve of this joke. Sorts out the weak.
1961 2013-12-01 20:52:49 ranger__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1962 2013-12-01 20:52:54 * Luke-Jr wishes it worked that way ( re gavinandresen)
1963 2013-12-01 20:52:55 <jago25_99> is pywallet ok to use? It has lots of obfustricated looking code... https://raw.github.com/jackjack-jj/pywallet/master/pywallet.py
1964 2013-12-01 20:53:07 Coincid__ has joined
1965 2013-12-01 20:53:13 <jaakkos> ok, who is the first one to make a service for checking if my private key is on directory.io list??
1966 2013-12-01 20:53:27 <gavinandresen> warren: I was seriously considering implementing a "pundit track" service that functioned as a browser plugin and shaded pundit's names based on accuracy of their predictions....
1967 2013-12-01 20:53:35 <shesek> jago25_99, you mean all that base64?
1968 2013-12-01 20:53:45 <gavinandresen> ⦠but decided nobody would buy it, because people just listen to pundits they already agree with.
1969 2013-12-01 20:53:50 <shesek> its just some inline images/fonts for the web interface, with data: URIs
1970 2013-12-01 20:54:02 Dennismckinnon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1971 2013-12-01 20:54:16 <roconnor> jaakkos: your private key is in the directory. You need to ask saracen to remove it from the list. That way you will be secure. *nods*
1972 2013-12-01 20:54:38 <saracen> Yeah, there's also a removal fee.
1973 2013-12-01 20:54:42 <tholenst> i would actually expect that some people do that :(
1974 2013-12-01 20:54:43 <roconnor> *l*
1975 2013-12-01 20:55:02 * sipa approves of roconnor's advise
1976 2013-12-01 20:55:05 <jaakkos> :D
1977 2013-12-01 20:55:06 <sipa> (advice?)
1978 2013-12-01 20:55:06 AusBitBank has joined
1979 2013-12-01 20:55:06 Coincidental has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1980 2013-12-01 20:55:18 <Luke-Jr> heh
1981 2013-12-01 20:55:18 <gavinandresen> lol
1982 2013-12-01 20:55:33 <Luke-Jr> remember n00bs read these logs ;)
1983 2013-12-01 20:55:45 <tyr1ck> Anyone have some experience with mrkl_root calc?
1984 2013-12-01 20:55:46 <gavinandresen> NOOBS: NEVER EVERY DO ANYTHING WITH YOUR PRIVATE KEYS
1985 2013-12-01 20:55:56 <gavinandresen> DO NOT EXPORT THEM
1986 2013-12-01 20:55:59 <gavinandresen> DO NOT LOOK AT THEM
1987 2013-12-01 20:56:03 <tyr1ck> or is that something devs really don't get into
1988 2013-12-01 20:56:04 <gavinandresen> there.
1989 2013-12-01 20:56:08 <roconnor> oh right
1990 2013-12-01 20:56:14 Coincide_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1991 2013-12-01 20:56:26 <roconnor> to anyone listening to me: DO NOT FOLLOW MY ADVICE TO jaakkos
1992 2013-12-01 20:56:32 andrys has quit (Quit: andrys)
1993 2013-12-01 20:56:39 Emcy_ has joined
1994 2013-12-01 20:56:45 joepie91 has quit (Changing host)
1995 2013-12-01 20:56:45 joepie91 has joined
1996 2013-12-01 20:56:46 <gavinandresen> I suppose the problem is with people who aren't total noobs-- a little knowledge being a dangerous thing and all that.
1997 2013-12-01 20:56:48 <joepie91> if you're a noob: there ARE no private keys; they're a figment of imagination and you should definitely not be looking for them (though you should still back them up)
1998 2013-12-01 20:56:51 <joepie91> :)
1999 2013-12-01 20:57:03 <roconnor> 5HpHagT65TZzG1Y1EgRXtyfaJEzDpWeyqid1MCaLh14kXHL7mGu 1EfFnTzfJPPcEuHvUcjnN8oYncTDfr2Buh
2000 2013-12-01 20:57:05 <roconnor> 5HpHagT65TZzG1Y1EgRXtyfaJEzDpWeyqid1MCaLh14kXTwX4k1 14zXmtZJYHdBUH4CtgurTPNibJsGegMEBR
2001 2013-12-01 20:57:06 <roconnor> 5HpHagT65TZzG1Y1EgRXtyfaJEzDpWeyqid1MCaLh14kXY7MTfZ 17aH8F9oEe7tGjRUkjG5JjKSAe9BMU23iC
2002 2013-12-01 20:57:09 <roconnor> oops
2003 2013-12-01 20:57:18 <sipa> are those your keys? :p
2004 2013-12-01 20:57:18 andrys has joined
2005 2013-12-01 20:57:25 <saracen> That'kll be a removal fee of 0.5 BTC each, please.
2006 2013-12-01 20:57:38 <roconnor> 5HpHagT65TZzG1Y1EgRXtyfaJEzDpWeyqid1MCaLh14kXHL7mGu 1EfFnTzfJPPcEuHvUcjnN8oYncTDfr2Buh
2007 2013-12-01 20:57:39 <roconnor> REDACTED
2008 2013-12-01 20:57:41 <roconnor> 5HpHagT65TZzG1Y1EgRXtyfaJEzDpWeyqid1MCaLh14kXY7MTfZ 17aH8F9oEe7tGjRUkjG5JjKSAe9BMU23iC
2009 2013-12-01 20:57:44 <roconnor> I meant to paste that
2010 2013-12-01 20:57:48 <roconnor> but now the joke is ruined
2011 2013-12-01 20:58:01 <tyr1ck> =/ is there a single bitcoin dev in this room?
2012 2013-12-01 20:58:10 <sipa> tyr1ck: no, multiple
2013 2013-12-01 20:58:12 <sipa> sorry
2014 2013-12-01 20:58:15 <joepie91> lol
2015 2013-12-01 20:58:32 <Luke-Jr> lol
2016 2013-12-01 20:58:32 <joepie91> saracen: I'm actually wondering how there are people that are A. stupid enough to take this seriously (and believe you actually have a db of all keypairs) and B. clever enough to write a functioning crawler
2017 2013-12-01 20:58:37 <gavinandresen> I thought sipa was single
2018 2013-12-01 20:58:38 andrys has quit (Client Quit)
2019 2013-12-01 20:58:40 <joepie91> at the same time
2020 2013-12-01 20:58:42 <gavinandresen> (I'm married)
2021 2013-12-01 20:58:57 <Luke-Jr> joepie91: why write a crawler? just calculate what page it will be on based on the private key you're looking for..
2022 2013-12-01 20:59:00 <sipa> gavinandresen: haha, dang!
2023 2013-12-01 20:59:01 <saracen> joepie91: There's a few of them. I said earlier it's quite remarkable
2024 2013-12-01 20:59:01 <Luke-Jr> (oh wait..)
2025 2013-12-01 20:59:09 Emcy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2026 2013-12-01 20:59:25 <tholenst> i'm actually slightly worried that someone will look up his private key in this list :(
2027 2013-12-01 20:59:26 <joepie91> saracen: yes, that's what my comment was based on - just wondering how that combination of stupid and clever works :)
2028 2013-12-01 20:59:32 <saracen> Maybe I should generate a hall of shame once this all blows over.
2029 2013-12-01 20:59:44 <sipa> saracen: hall of shame with what?
2030 2013-12-01 20:59:45 <joepie91> (or rather, how it apparently DOESN'T work)
2031 2013-12-01 20:59:57 <Luke-Jr> saracen: you should put a "Search for your private key" at the top
2032 2013-12-01 21:00:01 <warren> perhaps people will learn to not panic
2033 2013-12-01 21:00:33 <warren> Luke-Jr: that's the entire point, unsearchable is scary
2034 2013-12-01 21:00:42 <djoot> Is it a really a mapping of all possible keys?
2035 2013-12-01 21:00:48 <tholenst> i think you should make it https just to be sure
2036 2013-12-01 21:00:58 <Luke-Jr> warren: depends on who you are. searchable means you get people sending you their privkey :p
2037 2013-12-01 21:01:00 <sipa> gavinandresen: you keep track of all your minions' private lifes? :p
2038 2013-12-01 21:01:13 paracyst has joined
2039 2013-12-01 21:01:18 <saracen> Luke-Jr: Tempting, but, I'm too good a person
2040 2013-12-01 21:01:20 <djoot> If it is, and people go looking for their key, they will actually be pointing out their keys...
2041 2013-12-01 21:01:23 <gavinandresen> sipa: no, I outsource that to the NSA
2042 2013-12-01 21:01:29 <sipa> gotcha
2043 2013-12-01 21:01:29 <Luke-Jr> djoot: it will be if he keeps adding to it for the next few ⦠billion(?) millenia..
2044 2013-12-01 21:01:31 andrys has joined
2045 2013-12-01 21:01:32 <saracen> Which is why, when I'm getting death threats, all of you guys are going to back me up. Right?
2046 2013-12-01 21:01:32 <warren> gavinandresen: that reminds me, I'm behind on submitting my last three status updates.
2047 2013-12-01 21:01:36 <warren> gavinandresen: apologies.
2048 2013-12-01 21:01:39 agnostic98 has joined
2049 2013-12-01 21:02:19 tyr1ck has left ()
2050 2013-12-01 21:02:27 <roconnor> how come the last page has as many keys as every other page?
2051 2013-12-01 21:02:38 capa66 has joined
2052 2013-12-01 21:02:41 <saracen> roconnor: Because math.
2053 2013-12-01 21:03:05 <tommygunner> warren: OMG6 just crashed when i sent a transaction
2054 2013-12-01 21:03:07 <tommygunner> http://hastebin.com/depokuwohu.md
2055 2013-12-01 21:03:13 * roconnor double checks the math
2056 2013-12-01 21:03:16 <warren> tommygunner: yeah, I know a fix already
2057 2013-12-01 21:03:19 <saracen> roconnor: 128 mod 0xffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
2058 2013-12-01 21:03:19 <warren> tommygunner: mac?
2059 2013-12-01 21:03:22 <tommygunner> re-opened it but it looks like the tx went through
2060 2013-12-01 21:03:23 <tommygunner> yes
2061 2013-12-01 21:03:31 B0g4r7 has joined
2062 2013-12-01 21:03:35 andrys has left ()
2063 2013-12-01 21:03:40 andrys has joined
2064 2013-12-01 21:03:44 <djoot> Luke-Jr: no, I mean if you have a sorted list,, and just generate the corresponding keys that map to a certain page, that means that when the webadmin can check logs and see that page 35252300502305423 and 250035002003503 etc were accessed,, and try to move the moneys from all mappings that naive users looking to see if their key is in the db
2065 2013-12-01 21:04:24 <sipa> saracen: you could indeed actually get rich by trying to find coins assigned to the addresses of any page that is accessed :p
2066 2013-12-01 21:04:31 <djoot> that wasnt so coherent
2067 2013-12-01 21:04:37 <djoot> sorry about that.. :)
2068 2013-12-01 21:04:54 <tommygunner> warren: the tx shows up in the log but doesnt seem like it was broadcast
2069 2013-12-01 21:05:06 <saracen> sipa: People that are capable of finding their page are people capable of understanding that this is a joke. At least, I hope
2070 2013-12-01 21:05:10 <warren> tommygunner: keep wallet open, it will retransmit
2071 2013-12-01 21:05:15 <tommygunner> i know
2072 2013-12-01 21:05:16 <warren> tommygunner: you can test my next build
2073 2013-12-01 21:05:30 <warren> rescrv: phantomcircuit: ping
2074 2013-12-01 21:05:49 <sipa> saracen: i hope so too, but i'm actually not convinced
2075 2013-12-01 21:06:05 <tholenst> yeah, that's why i'd make it https at least
2076 2013-12-01 21:06:16 <gavinandresen> We will almost certainly see copy-cat pages that let you search for private keys, intended to scam people
2077 2013-12-01 21:06:22 <Luke-Jr> djoot: hah, nice idea
2078 2013-12-01 21:07:09 <roconnor> saracen: there are 128 keys per page
2079 2013-12-01 21:07:20 <Luke-Jr> just make sure the pages are short enough that you can generate them on the fly
2080 2013-12-01 21:07:28 <Luke-Jr> and you can make it look like you really do have every key
2081 2013-12-01 21:07:29 <roconnor> saracen: there are 115792089237316195423570985008687907853269984665640564039457584007908834671663 private keys
2082 2013-12-01 21:07:48 <roconnor> saracen: that number factors as 2*3*7*13441*205115282021455665897114700593932402728804164701536103180137503955397371
2083 2013-12-01 21:08:01 <roconnor> 128 doesn't divide the number of keys evenly
2084 2013-12-01 21:08:27 ericmuyser has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2085 2013-12-01 21:09:02 ericmuyser has joined
2086 2013-12-01 21:09:18 <sipa> roconnor: 0 is not a valid private key
2087 2013-12-01 21:09:21 porquilho has quit ()
2088 2013-12-01 21:09:30 <roconnor> sipa: yes I've excluded it
2089 2013-12-01 21:09:39 <roconnor> 2^256 - 2^32 - 2^9 - 2^8 - 2^7 - 2^6 - 2^4 - 2 private keys
2090 2013-12-01 21:09:48 <sipa> no, that is the field size
2091 2013-12-01 21:09:52 <sipa> not the group size
2092 2013-12-01 21:09:58 <roconnor> oh shit
2093 2013-12-01 21:10:00 <sipa> there are 115792089237316195423570985008687907852837564279074904382605163141518161494336 private keys
2094 2013-12-01 21:11:42 <Emcy_> that seems like quite a lot
2095 2013-12-01 21:12:12 <roconnor> sipa: still it is not a multiple of 128
2096 2013-12-01 21:12:15 jakov has joined
2097 2013-12-01 21:12:42 <jago25_99> shesek, yeah, the base64 but also "Rijndael Inverted S-box" I'm not much of a programmer unfortunately
2098 2013-12-01 21:13:09 <roconnor> the website lists an extra 432420386565659656852420866394968145600 keys
2099 2013-12-01 21:13:20 <roconnor> are those duplicate keys valid?
2100 2013-12-01 21:13:21 imsaguy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2101 2013-12-01 21:13:28 * roconnor checks his code
2102 2013-12-01 21:13:30 <sipa> arguably
2103 2013-12-01 21:13:33 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2104 2013-12-01 21:13:48 <roconnor> it isn't a matter of argument, it is a matter of protocol
2105 2013-12-01 21:13:55 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
2106 2013-12-01 21:13:59 <sipa> private keys don't exist as far as the protocol is concerned
2107 2013-12-01 21:13:59 <shesek> anybody who's smart enough to figure out what page his key would appear on, is probably smart enough not to open it
2108 2013-12-01 21:14:21 <roconnor> sipa: good point
2109 2013-12-01 21:14:25 galaxy7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2110 2013-12-01 21:14:56 <roconnor> so there are probably duplicate addresses
2111 2013-12-01 21:15:01 <roconnor> let me find it
2112 2013-12-01 21:15:20 <sipa> saracen: if you list 64 per page, it could be done correctly
2113 2013-12-01 21:15:29 <sipa> the number of valid private keys is actually a multiple of 64
2114 2013-12-01 21:16:48 drayah has joined
2115 2013-12-01 21:17:07 mrkent has joined
2116 2013-12-01 21:17:07 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
2117 2013-12-01 21:17:07 mrkent has joined
2118 2013-12-01 21:17:21 dvide has quit ()
2119 2013-12-01 21:17:24 <saracen> Version 2 can come later :)
2120 2013-12-01 21:17:36 <B0g4r7> First page begins at 5H. Last page ends with 5K.
2121 2013-12-01 21:17:50 <saracen> I've got a uni deadline for tomorrow. This is a bit of a distraction
2122 2013-12-01 21:17:57 <sipa> haha
2123 2013-12-01 21:17:58 <saracen> Not sure why I did it today. Could have released it tomorrow
2124 2013-12-01 21:18:11 <sipa> because you had better things to do today
2125 2013-12-01 21:18:20 <sipa> that's the prime reason for doing something else :p
2126 2013-12-01 21:18:26 <saracen> :P
2127 2013-12-01 21:19:04 <saracen> WHOIS information for the domain still has my parents address. I moved out 5 years ago. Opps.
2128 2013-12-01 21:19:28 <saracen> People have mentioned it on twitter. That can't be a good sign
2129 2013-12-01 21:19:31 <sipa> to give a better sense of searchabiliy, sort each page's entries by address
2130 2013-12-01 21:20:58 <saracen> or... I could write this shitty essay in for tomorrow :)
2131 2013-12-01 21:21:10 <roconnor> There we go: http://directory.io/904625697166532776746648320380374280100293470930272690489102837043110636675
2132 2013-12-01 21:21:14 drayah has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2133 2013-12-01 21:21:15 <gavinandresen> saracen: you're going to get a whole lot more attention than you probably want
2134 2013-12-01 21:21:18 <saracen> In other news, I've been donated 0.007 BTC. You consume every atom in the universe to give people a database, and that's all it's worth.
2135 2013-12-01 21:21:25 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2136 2013-12-01 21:21:27 <roconnor> The public addresses start repeating from the beginning about half way down that page
2137 2013-12-01 21:22:00 <Luke-Jr> saracen: because today is when bitcointalk was hacked and price crashed
2138 2013-12-01 21:22:22 <roconnor> saracen: maybe they are upset that you list keys multiple times.
2139 2013-12-01 21:22:49 <roconnor> saracen: and 1JPbzbsAx1HyaDQoLMapWGoqf9pD5uha5m isn't even a valid address.
2140 2013-12-01 21:22:53 <roconnor> ... I hope
2141 2013-12-01 21:23:33 * Luke-Jr feels sorry for saracen's parents <.<
2142 2013-12-01 21:23:59 <lianj> roconnor: why?
2143 2013-12-01 21:24:47 <roconnor> lianj: you are not supposed to use the group's generator itself as a public key. That is supposed to be disallowed by ECDSA, though I'm not sure about bitcoin's implementation.
2144 2013-12-01 21:25:35 <sipa> it's disallowed
2145 2013-12-01 21:25:54 <sipa> and signatures using it will not be accepted
2146 2013-12-01 21:25:56 <lianj> ecdsa validity is another thing, but format wise the address is valid
2147 2013-12-01 21:26:20 <B0g4r7> The list keeps getting mentioned in trollbox.
2148 2013-12-01 21:26:21 <roconnor> but you cannot spend coins sent there
2149 2013-12-01 21:26:27 <Luke-Jr> hmm, if you use 0 as your private key, it turns out it unlocks every public key.. this could be bad
2150 2013-12-01 21:26:31 <Luke-Jr> </troll>
2151 2013-12-01 21:26:34 <roconnor> It doesn't deserve to be in the directory
2152 2013-12-01 21:26:36 <sipa> the address is valid
2153 2013-12-01 21:26:36 <sipa> the private key isn't
2154 2013-12-01 21:27:01 galaxy7 has joined
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2156 2013-12-01 21:28:04 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2157 2013-12-01 21:28:32 Nesetalis has joined
2158 2013-12-01 21:29:18 edulix has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2159 2013-12-01 21:31:39 edulix has joined
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2161 2013-12-01 21:33:03 imton has quit (Quit: imton)
2162 2013-12-01 21:33:20 imton has joined
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2164 2013-12-01 21:34:44 <rescrv> warren: pong
2165 2013-12-01 21:34:51 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2166 2013-12-01 21:35:01 <warren> rescrv: you mentioned you had an implementation to get rid of mmap writes?
2167 2013-12-01 21:35:06 <warren> rescrv: phantomcircuit wrote one too
2168 2013-12-01 21:35:27 <warren> rescrv: we still have some kind of crash with your patch, so we should probably try other approaches.
2169 2013-12-01 21:37:00 <rescrv> warren: I'm happy to cleanup my implementation. It was a POC for HyperLevelDB, so I'd need to port it. I'm also pretty sure that doing so would have no outcome on the crashes you see. They are not generated by the code that'd be affected by mmap/non-mmap writes.
2170 2013-12-01 21:37:17 <warren> sigh
2171 2013-12-01 21:37:20 <rescrv> From what I saw, even the LevelDB crash was unrelated.
2172 2013-12-01 21:37:39 <warren> rescrv: I'm curious why the mem barrier thing is unimportant?
2173 2013-12-01 21:38:06 <warren> rescrv: (I haven't looked much at leveldb, I'm trying to fix a huge pile of other things)
2174 2013-12-01 21:38:13 galaxy7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2175 2013-12-01 21:38:37 MT`AwAy is now known as MagicalTux
2176 2013-12-01 21:42:35 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2177 2013-12-01 21:43:07 <rescrv> warren: Memory barriers are typically used for doing release-stores. It's used to set flags for background threads, and to maintain the skiplist. The "MemoryBarrier" idiom used in port/atomic_pointer.h is recognized by g++ and so there *shouldn't* be a difference. I also said it probably can't hurt to switch it.
2178 2013-12-01 21:43:22 johnsoft has joined
2179 2013-12-01 21:44:17 <rescrv> But everywhere that it's used would not cause problems to have out-of-order accesses. What you'd end up with is compactions that don't take place (seeing all writes block), or writes that succeed but mysteriously go missing.
2180 2013-12-01 21:44:24 <warren> rescrv: cfields looked at the asm output from g++ and found it was optimized out, and the following native memory barrier was skipped due to the preprocessor
2181 2013-12-01 21:44:25 <rescrv> Neither situation would lead to a crash
2182 2013-12-01 21:44:47 <rescrv> warren: was it asm on x86_64?
2183 2013-12-01 21:44:57 <cfields> agh, let me explain that
2184 2013-12-01 21:45:01 <warren> rescrv: 32bit
2185 2013-12-01 21:45:09 <warren> cfields: please
2186 2013-12-01 21:46:02 <cfields> asm output shows that g++ respects the asm/memory barrier, and does not reorder around it
2187 2013-12-01 21:46:29 <cfields> it was clang that ignored it in some cases
2188 2013-12-01 21:46:38 <rescrv> warren: toffoo had a core dump at one point. Did he share it with anyone? It'd be useful to see the contents of the slice passed in, as that's most likely invalid.
2189 2013-12-01 21:47:48 <warren> rescrv: I think the core dump was from the later unrelated Send crashes, which I have a fix for.
2190 2013-12-01 21:47:58 <cfields> warren: please forget about the memory barrier. If the leveldb guys feel it's important enough, it'll make it into a future release.
2191 2013-12-01 21:48:01 agnostic98 has joined
2192 2013-12-01 21:48:14 <rescrv> warren: are you building with clang?
2193 2013-12-01 21:48:28 <rescrv> warren: Does he get the leveldb crash with the Send crashes?
2194 2013-12-01 21:48:34 <warren> rescrv: no
2195 2013-12-01 21:48:45 <warren> rescrv: the earlier traceback had no Send involved
2196 2013-12-01 21:48:55 <cfields> a new one today?
2197 2013-12-01 21:49:05 <warren> hold on, what?
2198 2013-12-01 21:49:16 <cfields> <warren> rescrv: the earlier traceback had no Send involved
2199 2013-12-01 21:49:34 <warren> rescrv: the bitcoin 0.8 releases are built with MacOS X 10.6.8 with xcode 3.2.[4,6] which is based on gcc-4.2
2200 2013-12-01 21:50:03 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770#issuecomment-29541916
2201 2013-12-01 21:50:18 <warren> http://pastebin.com/hg2QTwTB
2202 2013-12-01 21:50:21 <warren> line 222
2203 2013-12-01 21:51:06 brandondahler has joined
2204 2013-12-01 21:51:30 <rescrv> warren: what was the fix for the other crash?
2205 2013-12-01 21:51:38 <warren> cfields: you are certain xcode 3.2.6 gcc-4.2 is not optimizing out the mem barrier? We have unexplained behavior of coblee no longer corrupting with that patch alone.
2206 2013-12-01 21:51:53 <warren> rescrv: a simple race condition in the GUI code, probably a double free
2207 2013-12-01 21:52:15 andrys has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2208 2013-12-01 21:52:30 <warren> rescrv: we decided to just remove a setfocus() from a place where it wasn't supposed to be.
2209 2013-12-01 21:52:31 terrymcann has joined
2210 2013-12-01 21:52:37 galaxy7 has joined
2211 2013-12-01 21:52:52 <sipa> warren: does that GUI bug impact bitcoin head?
2212 2013-12-01 21:53:02 <warren> sipa: I'm unable to build bitcoin head
2213 2013-12-01 21:53:20 <sipa> that's a problem on itself, but not an answer to my question :)
2214 2013-12-01 21:53:28 <warren> sipa: it affects 0.8.5 + coin control on mac only, and it is very very difficult to reproduce
2215 2013-12-01 21:53:58 <sipa> but is there a reason why it would affect master too?
2216 2013-12-01 21:54:08 <warren> sipa: Ryan52 is looking into that now
2217 2013-12-01 21:54:10 <sipa> ok
2218 2013-12-01 21:54:41 goedgoed has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2220 2013-12-01 21:55:09 <Luke-Jr> facepalm, just found someone who thought the block-finder got some % of transaction fees on an ongoing basis x.x
2221 2013-12-01 21:55:30 goedgoed has joined
2222 2013-12-01 21:55:38 edulix has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2223 2013-12-01 21:55:40 <sipa> block finder?
2224 2013-12-01 21:55:49 ralphtheninja has joined
2225 2013-12-01 21:57:04 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2226 2013-12-01 21:57:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: find a block, get some % forever
2227 2013-12-01 21:57:36 drayah has joined
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2230 2013-12-01 21:58:27 * Luke-Jr ponders the incentives of such a rule
2231 2013-12-01 21:58:39 <Luke-Jr> .. since a pool could theoretically offer that behaviour..
2232 2013-12-01 21:59:53 AusBitBank has quit (Quit: fuck it)
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2252 2013-12-01 22:18:22 <warren> are any testnet faucets working?
2253 2013-12-01 22:18:42 <sipa> http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/ ?
2254 2013-12-01 22:18:46 imsaguy has joined
2255 2013-12-01 22:20:10 Coincid__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2256 2013-12-01 22:21:41 mE\Ta has joined
2257 2013-12-01 22:23:19 <Vinnie_win> any c++ programmers want to help me do my work for me?
2258 2013-12-01 22:27:25 tholenst has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2259 2013-12-01 22:28:27 <bluesceada> Burritoh: remember my transaction .. it still didn't go through but got an accepted payment from coinbase/humble bundle anyway....
2260 2013-12-01 22:28:39 <bluesceada> it didnt even appear in blockchain.info anymore..
2261 2013-12-01 22:28:42 <bluesceada> I added it again ..
2262 2013-12-01 22:28:47 <bluesceada> https://blockchain.info/tx/7e5e70eed73e345bf679686e20a0a828c93b8987ec874112344f2308cc6e8ac0
2263 2013-12-01 22:28:58 Burritoh has left ()
2264 2013-12-01 22:29:01 Burritoh has joined
2265 2013-12-01 22:29:04 <bluesceada> uh
2266 2013-12-01 22:29:10 <Burritoh> bluesceada: oh o_O
2267 2013-12-01 22:29:16 <bluesceada> hi
2268 2013-12-01 22:29:22 ericmuyser has joined
2269 2013-12-01 22:29:25 <Burritoh> sorry, my login script makes me leave in case I have to change my name.
2270 2013-12-01 22:29:35 <Burritoh> this channel doesn't make me change my name unless I'm logged in :P
2271 2013-12-01 22:29:39 <bluesceada> you didnt even change your name (?)
2272 2013-12-01 22:29:47 <Burritoh> yeah, the script doesn't know that
2273 2013-12-01 22:29:54 <bluesceada> ok . whatever...
2274 2013-12-01 22:30:05 <Burritoh> that's strange, the transaction.
2275 2013-12-01 22:30:06 <bluesceada> you got all the msgs?
2276 2013-12-01 22:30:08 <Burritoh> yeah
2277 2013-12-01 22:30:38 <Burritoh> so did you have to re-pay it? Did you ever get the old one back?
2278 2013-12-01 22:30:38 <bluesceada> yeah so this even looks like i could cancel it and coinbase still sees it valid, it probably doesnt get invalidated there, and certainly not in humble bundle i guess
2279 2013-12-01 22:30:44 <bluesceada> but this shouldn't happen ...
2280 2013-12-01 22:30:49 CriticalH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2281 2013-12-01 22:30:52 <bluesceada> no I DID GET IT ... this is the crazy thing
2282 2013-12-01 22:31:01 <bluesceada> even if it is not validated by anyone (?)
2283 2013-12-01 22:31:15 <sipa> are you talking about a received but not confirmed transaction?
2284 2013-12-01 22:31:16 <bluesceada> and it even fell out of blockchain.info for some reason ..
2285 2013-12-01 22:31:21 <Burritoh> ah... I guess they aren't strict about validation because Bitcoin is a tiny percentage of HIB's income and HIB is charitable.
2286 2013-12-01 22:31:30 <bluesceada> sipa: about a sent and not confirmed
2287 2013-12-01 22:31:45 <bluesceada> not confirmed by anyone, but it got confirmed as a correct/valid coinbase payment at some point
2288 2013-12-01 22:31:54 <bluesceada> (bought the humble weekly bundle with it)
2289 2013-12-01 22:32:02 <bluesceada> but that also took 8-10 hours
2290 2013-12-01 22:32:03 <Burritoh> Maybe it only got to part of the blockchain? :S
2291 2013-12-01 22:32:04 <shesek> warren, tpfaucet doesn't always work for me, I prefer http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
2292 2013-12-01 22:32:21 msvb-lab has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2293 2013-12-01 22:32:25 <Burritoh> I'm still a little confused
2294 2013-12-01 22:32:52 <Burritoh> Maybe a human saw it in some log on HIB and decided to let it go through.
2295 2013-12-01 22:32:53 <bluesceada> sipa it then even fell out of blockchain.info and I added it again manually with blockchain.info/pushtx and that is it in case you are interested: https://blockchain.info/tx/7e5e70eed73e345bf679686e20a0a828c93b8987ec874112344f2308cc6e8ac0
2296 2013-12-01 22:33:16 <bluesceada> Burritoh: but it got accepted by coinbase, I guess they dont do anything on the humble bundle side for that?
2297 2013-12-01 22:33:17 <sipa> bluesceada: why do you care about blockchain.info?
2298 2013-12-01 22:33:28 <bluesceada> sipa it also isn't confirmed locally ...
2299 2013-12-01 22:33:30 v3ry3l33te has joined
2300 2013-12-01 22:33:36 <sipa> so, it's not accepted, sure
2301 2013-12-01 22:33:37 <sipa> eh
2302 2013-12-01 22:33:40 <bluesceada> it didn't even show up at blockchain.info (just as an indicator)
2303 2013-12-01 22:33:54 <bluesceada> I sent the payment on 29.11. at 12:55 GMT+1
2304 2013-12-01 22:34:04 <sipa> so, it's not confirmed by the network, sure
2305 2013-12-01 22:34:04 <sipa> but as a sender you don't care about tha
2306 2013-12-01 22:34:04 <sipa> you care that the receiver accepts your payment
2307 2013-12-01 22:34:09 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2308 2013-12-01 22:34:12 <Burritoh> bluesceada: I don't know how Coinbase merchant accounts work, but maybe HIB had some control over that.
2309 2013-12-01 22:34:22 <bluesceada> sipa ok .. then it should be "alright" ... but it is still strange, isn't it?
2310 2013-12-01 22:34:26 <sipa> bluesceada: it's their problem, not yours
2311 2013-12-01 22:34:30 <sipa> not strange at all
2312 2013-12-01 22:34:31 <bluesceada> uh wtf .. ok ..
2313 2013-12-01 22:35:00 <sipa> there is high contention for block space now
2314 2013-12-01 22:35:09 <sipa> many transactions take a long time to be accepted
2315 2013-12-01 22:35:21 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
2316 2013-12-01 22:35:28 <sipa> but if the receiver doesn't care about confirmations, neither should you
2317 2013-12-01 22:35:28 bassin has joined
2318 2013-12-01 22:35:29 <bluesceada> but as far as I see, further transactions will be dependent on this one? because it is a split of my wallet's content to the one I sent and the remaining
2319 2013-12-01 22:35:47 <sipa> ah, that you do care about :)
2320 2013-12-01 22:35:58 <bluesceada> see there https://blockchain.info/tx/7e5e70eed73e345bf679686e20a0a828c93b8987ec874112344f2308cc6e8ac0
2321 2013-12-01 22:36:02 <Burritoh> It should get confirmed eventually.
2322 2013-12-01 22:36:12 <sipa> yeah, further spends won't confirm before the dependency gets confirmed
2323 2013-12-01 22:36:14 <bluesceada> it's a 0,0555 input ...
2324 2013-12-01 22:36:29 <bluesceada> but how many days can/will this take?
2325 2013-12-01 22:36:34 <tommygunner> not long
2326 2013-12-01 22:36:42 <sipa> how long has it been?
2327 2013-12-01 22:36:45 <bluesceada> and why did it show up at blockchain at some point, and then didn't show up anymore there
2328 2013-12-01 22:36:51 <sipa> ask them?
2329 2013-12-01 22:36:53 <bluesceada> 2 and a half days now
2330 2013-12-01 22:37:31 <tommygunner> oh thats a long time
2331 2013-12-01 22:37:33 <bluesceada> about 59 hours ..
2332 2013-12-01 22:37:42 <tommygunner> through how many nodes was it broadcast
2333 2013-12-01 22:37:50 <bluesceada> 8 I guess ?
2334 2013-12-01 22:37:59 <tommygunner> did you send it from blockchain
2335 2013-12-01 22:38:06 <bluesceada> no with bitcoin-qt
2336 2013-12-01 22:38:44 <Burritoh> bluesceada: if you right click on the transaction and click on properties (I think), you can see how many nodes it was broadcast through.
2337 2013-12-01 22:38:47 <tommygunner> the input isnt the oldest coin in the world
2338 2013-12-01 22:38:50 <bluesceada> I talked with kjj about this on friday about 2 hours after I sent it ..
2339 2013-12-01 22:39:07 <tommygunner> but it should come through, the magic word, eventually
2340 2013-12-01 22:39:07 <bluesceada> Burritoh: doesn't show there
2341 2013-12-01 22:39:10 <Burritoh> bluesceada: is this the one kjj broadcasted through his nodes in order to help?
2342 2013-12-01 22:39:15 <bluesceada> yes
2343 2013-12-01 22:39:26 <bluesceada> this is the only transaction I ever sent ...
2344 2013-12-01 22:39:31 <Burritoh> ah, then it was broadcasted through many nodes. We also put it on blockchain.info's pushtx feature.
2345 2013-12-01 22:39:34 aRuCaRd_88 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2346 2013-12-01 22:39:36 <Burritoh> The raw hex.
2347 2013-12-01 22:39:52 <bluesceada> yes and today the transaction id was unknown on blockchain.info again
2348 2013-12-01 22:40:01 <bluesceada> so I added the hex again in pushtx...
2349 2013-12-01 22:40:11 <bluesceada> but I guess it won't help again
2350 2013-12-01 22:40:19 <tommygunner> wait and bleed
2351 2013-12-01 22:40:30 <sipa> what's the txid?
2352 2013-12-01 22:40:33 <bluesceada> bleed?
2353 2013-12-01 22:40:42 <bluesceada> sipa: 7e5e70eed73e345bf679686e20a0a828c93b8987ec874112344f2308cc6e8ac0-000
2354 2013-12-01 22:40:43 <Burritoh> If only we could twist some mining pool operator elbows...
2355 2013-12-01 22:40:49 <bluesceada> or .. 7e5e70eed73e345bf679686e20a0a828c93b8987ec874112344f2308cc6e8ac0
2356 2013-12-01 22:41:13 <tommygunner> you can ask nicely in #eligius
2357 2013-12-01 22:41:26 <bluesceada> he also said, it could be due to some rounding error in my client, and this will be fixed in a future version...
2358 2013-12-01 22:41:33 <bluesceada> (in bitcoin-qt ..)
2359 2013-12-01 22:41:37 <Burritoh> would be nice if they just generally stuck to the standard block size
2360 2013-12-01 22:41:57 <sipa> bluesceada: my node has seen it
2361 2013-12-01 22:42:01 <bluesceada> hm ok
2362 2013-12-01 22:42:05 <bluesceada> when?
2363 2013-12-01 22:42:12 <sipa> no idea
2364 2013-12-01 22:42:15 <bluesceada> ok..
2365 2013-12-01 22:42:42 <bluesceada> so I should ask in #eligius ?
2366 2013-12-01 22:42:46 <sipa> that can help
2367 2013-12-01 22:42:53 c0rw1n has joined
2368 2013-12-01 22:43:12 <tommygunner> your fee is enough to qualify for the free transaction relay policy
2369 2013-12-01 22:43:27 <sipa> that statement doesn't make sense
2370 2013-12-01 22:43:48 <tommygunner> the minimum fee is 0.00008192
2371 2013-12-01 22:43:51 <sipa> either it's low enough to be considered a free transaction, and in that case it can or cannot qualify the relay policy
2372 2013-12-01 22:44:02 <bluesceada> I just accepted the fee the client told me to use
2373 2013-12-01 22:44:35 <tommygunner> sipa: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Free_transaction_relay_policy
2374 2013-12-01 22:45:03 Grouver has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference)
2375 2013-12-01 22:45:47 Guest40446 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2376 2013-12-01 22:46:15 <sipa> hmm that page is confused
2377 2013-12-01 22:46:23 <sipa> in terminolog
2378 2013-12-01 22:46:30 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2379 2013-12-01 22:46:37 n0n0 has joined
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2385 2013-12-01 22:56:17 <Luke-Jr> sipa: confused how?
2386 2013-12-01 22:56:22 patcon has joined
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2388 2013-12-01 22:57:01 stderr has joined
2389 2013-12-01 23:01:33 <warren> rescrv: cfields: latest build I posted was of 0.8.6 (no Coin control, only robert's patch) but the forum is down now so nobody is seeing it.
2390 2013-12-01 23:02:43 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it has nothing to do with the free relay policy
2391 2013-12-01 23:02:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: sure it does
2392 2013-12-01 23:02:57 <sipa> it seems to be about bypassing it
2393 2013-12-01 23:03:11 hemry has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2394 2013-12-01 23:03:24 twiceaday has quit (Excess Flood)
2395 2013-12-01 23:03:36 twiceaday has joined
2396 2013-12-01 23:03:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: are you confusing "gratis" with "free"?
2397 2013-12-01 23:04:22 Guest40446 has joined
2398 2013-12-01 23:05:32 <sipa> ah!
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2411 2013-12-01 23:17:55 <toffoo> warren I've got 0.8.6.mactest1 running
2412 2013-12-01 23:17:59 <toffoo> so far so good
2413 2013-12-01 23:18:10 <toffoo> but no more Retina font support :(
2414 2013-12-01 23:18:50 <warren> toffoo: OMG had retina font?
2415 2013-12-01 23:18:58 <toffoo> yes, all your releases did
2416 2013-12-01 23:19:04 <warren> toffoo: I'm fixing OMG soon
2417 2013-12-01 23:19:09 <warren> well, fixing the send crash
2418 2013-12-01 23:19:12 jcorgan has joined
2419 2013-12-01 23:19:14 <warren> leveldb is still a mystery
2420 2013-12-01 23:20:17 mxisaac has joined
2421 2013-12-01 23:20:44 <nsh> has anyone proposed rewriting a db component for bitcoind from scratch?
2422 2013-12-01 23:21:03 <nsh> there must be a certain point past which the overhead of dealing with leveldb surpasses the investment to replace it
2423 2013-12-01 23:22:45 jcorgan has quit (Client Quit)
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2426 2013-12-01 23:24:19 <shesek> I'm working on a web interface for multisig transactions, and would love some feedback and testing. Anyone feels like helping out?
2427 2013-12-01 23:24:47 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2433 2013-12-01 23:34:12 <jago25_99> shesek, sure, send a link. I'm off to bed shortly but I'll have a look later if not. multisig is exciting
2434 2013-12-01 23:34:16 jcorgan has quit (Quit: jcorgan)
2435 2013-12-01 23:34:59 <sipa> nsh: if it is leveldb-like (key-value store with atomic batch writes), it should be very easy
2436 2013-12-01 23:35:43 <sipa> until recently however, we had very little visibility into what the cause of corruption could be
2437 2013-12-01 23:36:15 mapppum has joined
2438 2013-12-01 23:36:15 <sipa> some level is always expected - hardware errors do happen, and bitcoin certainly would trigger more than usual software running
2439 2013-12-01 23:36:42 * nsh nods
2440 2013-12-01 23:37:33 <nsh> but can the corruption be managed, recoverably, without incurring too high a performance penalty?
2441 2013-12-01 23:38:02 <nsh> the process atm seems to require a fair amount of user interaction and savvy
2442 2013-12-01 23:38:20 <sipa> maybe we can do something like have 3 database copies of every thing, and in case they disagree, take the majority response
2443 2013-12-01 23:38:25 <sipa> :D
2444 2013-12-01 23:38:43 <sipa> it wouldn't even add 1 GB of storage...
2445 2013-12-01 23:38:43 <nsh> worked for nasa :)
2446 2013-12-01 23:39:17 <warren> what happened to that idea of chainstate snapshots?
2447 2013-12-01 23:39:22 <warren> so you don't have to reindex the entire thing ...
2448 2013-12-01 23:39:27 <warren> time consuming
2449 2013-12-01 23:39:40 <sipa> should work perfectly, and is relatively easy to do
2450 2013-12-01 23:40:11 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2451 2013-12-01 23:40:15 <warren> every time toffoo's chainstate corrupts we need to wait 3 hours for him to test something else
2452 2013-12-01 23:40:30 <sipa> well you can make a backup just fine
2453 2013-12-01 23:40:33 <warren> yeah
2454 2013-12-01 23:40:38 <warren> it should just be automatic
2455 2013-12-01 23:40:48 <sipa> it should just not corrupt :p
2456 2013-12-01 23:40:52 <warren> =)
2457 2013-12-01 23:42:56 <sipa> i mean... for me, bitcoind has never corrupted since 0.8 (at least not without deliberately triggering it)... it should be possible to get that for everyone (with non-broken hardware...)
2458 2013-12-01 23:43:23 <sipa> maybe the first hour or so after starting a bitcoind, it should in a separate thread run some memory & cpu stress test
2459 2013-12-01 23:43:26 <nsh> Dear God: [...] ps. oh and please make the physics more deterministic so bitcoin corrupts less often
2460 2013-12-01 23:43:45 <nsh> :)
2461 2013-12-01 23:43:53 <warren> Let's also stop all gamma rays.
2462 2013-12-01 23:43:59 <Luke-Jr> lol
2463 2013-12-01 23:44:05 <rescrv> sipa: you'd need four copies
2464 2013-12-01 23:44:09 <sipa> and in case that fails, tell the user their hardware is of too low quality (if you tell them outright it's broken they won't believe you...)
2465 2013-12-01 23:44:16 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's pretty deterministic - you just don't get the source ;)
2466 2013-12-01 23:44:37 <Luke-Jr> (or rather, there is no source.. hacking in bytecode ftw)
2467 2013-12-01 23:45:30 <rescrv> warren: is it the chainstate corrupting? The only thing I've seen is that he has a crash. The chainstates that were published didn't have any outward evidence of corruption that would cause a crash.
2468 2013-12-01 23:45:53 eristisk has joined
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2470 2013-12-01 23:46:08 <sipa> i should run a service that computes the chainstate hash after every block
2471 2013-12-01 23:46:12 <sipa> and publishes it
2472 2013-12-01 23:46:28 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's hashable? :P
2473 2013-12-01 23:46:30 eristisk has joined
2474 2013-12-01 23:46:36 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yes, gettxoutsetinfo reports the hash
2475 2013-12-01 23:46:43 * Luke-Jr puts it in his blocks
2476 2013-12-01 23:46:54 <sipa> it takes a few seconds to compute
2477 2013-12-01 23:46:56 <Luke-Jr> o
2478 2013-12-01 23:46:57 <Luke-Jr> lame
2479 2013-12-01 23:47:10 <sipa> you could commit to the previous' block's hash though!
2480 2013-12-01 23:47:29 Neozonz has joined
2481 2013-12-01 23:50:13 <warren> rescrv: earlier they were corrupting, not now
2482 2013-12-01 23:50:28 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2483 2013-12-01 23:54:05 <rescrv> warren: I asked because you said that everytime his state corrupts you need to wait for him to test. I didn't know whether you were stating that there is still corruption, or if you were using the term corruption loosely.
2484 2013-12-01 23:56:54 dparrish has joined
2485 2013-12-01 23:57:43 jago25_99 is now known as jago25_99|away
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2489 2013-12-01 23:59:28 <warren> rescrv: -reindex takes him about 3 hours, which is inconvenient