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6 2013-12-02 00:05:25 <rescrv> warren: but is his state getting corrupted? Or he just assumes he should start fresh?
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8 2013-12-02 00:07:17 <warren> rescrv: his state apparently hasn't been corrupted since before your patch. something else leveldb related was crashing without apparent leveldb corruption , but with data invalid for bitcoin itself
9 2013-12-02 00:07:23 <hankcary> good morning to anyone approximately GMT +10
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12 2013-12-02 00:08:02 <hankcary> Can I run a possible DDOS mitigation strategy passed someone knowledgeable ?
13 2013-12-02 00:09:20 <hankcary> PING ?
14 2013-12-02 00:09:44 <sevenqueue> something is going on
15 2013-12-02 00:10:00 <sevenqueue> I see errors in the debug log
16 2013-12-02 00:12:00 <nsh> hankcary, maybe try in #bitcoin or #bitcoin-offtopic if it's not about the development of bitcoind (or other implementations) software
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18 2013-12-02 00:12:24 <hankcary> are most DDOS attacks based on overloading the BitcoinD process? generally with micro- or invalid transactions ?
19 2013-12-02 00:12:39 mappum has joined
20 2013-12-02 00:12:39 <hankcary> or are doing good old fashioned bandwidth floods ?
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22 2013-12-02 00:13:09 <hankcary> I was just wondering if the -connect function where you only connect to a specified peer, could be used to sertup a reasonable proxy setup
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24 2013-12-02 00:14:16 <hankcary> my thought was to have a ephemeral wallet server on a preloaded AWS template server, and if an inbound proxy server was overloaded, block all inbopund connections ( to try and find valid blocks amidst the chaff) and spawn a new server to pick up the load
25 2013-12-02 00:14:57 <hankcary> my real bitcoind server would then only connect to the proxy peer, which wold switch out, but hopefully always remain online, just via different proxies
26 2013-12-02 00:15:23 <hankcary> does this seem legitimate ?
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30 2013-12-02 00:16:48 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is the blockundo database leveldb?
31 2013-12-02 00:16:52 <hankcary> or does anyone have a different forum that may better suit network function of bitcoind discussions ?
32 2013-12-02 00:16:56 <sipa> phantomcircuit: no
33 2013-12-02 00:17:15 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
34 2013-12-02 00:17:36 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i switched out the mmap WriteableFile with a write() based implementation and now im getting "Failed to write undo data" when reindexing
35 2013-12-02 00:17:43 patcon has joined
36 2013-12-02 00:17:56 <sipa> that's strange :)
37 2013-12-02 00:17:59 <sipa> is your disk full? :p
38 2013-12-02 00:18:06 <phantomcircuit> nope
39 2013-12-02 00:18:16 <phantomcircuit> actually it's a vm disk let me check
40 2013-12-02 00:18:29 <phantomcircuit> oh hey
41 2013-12-02 00:18:30 <phantomcircuit> yes it is
42 2013-12-02 00:18:36 <phantomcircuit> brb clearing space
43 2013-12-02 00:20:10 * sipa zZzZ
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48 2013-12-02 00:23:29 <brandondahler> Can anyone link me to or give me a quick rundown on the databases/on-disk data structures and files referenced by them for bitcoin?
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55 2013-12-02 00:33:17 <warren> hankcary: what os are you running?
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82 2013-12-02 00:55:12 <pera> can anyone tell me how is it possible to do a mitm on bitcointalk when https is enforced?
83 2013-12-02 00:55:44 <pera> does rapidssl was compromised too? :p
84 2013-12-02 00:57:55 Peter-Of_the-Nor has joined
85 2013-12-02 00:58:35 <brandondahler> So long as you are not accepting unknown/compromised SSL certificates, HTTPS ensures mitm attacks are impossible.
86 2013-12-02 00:59:12 [\\\] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
87 2013-12-02 00:59:19 <Tykling> brandondahler: well, difficult, with the number of CAs trusted by todays browser impossible is a pretty big word to throw around
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90 2013-12-02 01:00:29 <Zarutian> well, that list needs a good pruning
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92 2013-12-02 01:01:18 <pera> can we create an authentication protocol using bitcoin signatures?
93 2013-12-02 01:01:36 <c0rw1n> sure, why not
94 2013-12-02 01:01:47 <pera> and then an addon for firefox and chrome
95 2013-12-02 01:01:51 <c0rw1n> ask the user to sign a message using bitcoin
96 2013-12-02 01:01:51 <brandondahler> Nothing any better than trusting CAs or particular web of trusts
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99 2013-12-02 01:03:55 * Zarutian is on the opinion that we (collectivly) would be better off with yurls (basicly the first part of the domain contains the cryptohash of the linked to site public key.
100 2013-12-02 01:04:28 <brandondahler> Would that allow revoking of private keys
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103 2013-12-02 01:05:42 <jakov> Zarutian that sounds good
104 2013-12-02 01:05:47 <jakov> in many situations
105 2013-12-02 01:06:27 * Zarutian closes with )
106 2013-12-02 01:06:44 <jakov> how do you tell people about the url to begin with
107 2013-12-02 01:06:56 <jakov> since the hash isnt human memorazable
108 2013-12-02 01:07:00 <Zarutian> same way you tell them of .onion or .i2p sites
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110 2013-12-02 01:07:25 <jakov> someone could mitm that
111 2013-12-02 01:07:28 <brandondahler> a random .onion site that contains a wiki of a bunch of other onion sites
112 2013-12-02 01:07:32 <jakov> replace it with their own link
113 2013-12-02 01:07:45 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
114 2013-12-02 01:07:55 <Zarutian> or copy paste them around through signed email
115 2013-12-02 01:08:11 <jakov> we get infinite regress of keys to trust
116 2013-12-02 01:08:38 <Zarutian> the point is not trying to map realworld names to public keys
117 2013-12-02 01:09:21 <Zarutian> that is rather pointless.
118 2013-12-02 01:09:56 gjs278 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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120 2013-12-02 01:10:16 <Zarutian> when a friend or someone you meat face to face gives you an link you only care that that link links to the thing they intented to show you
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122 2013-12-02 01:11:51 <Zarutian> but if you insists on squaring Zooko's triangle then just use namecoin to provide the well-known-name to public key mapping
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130 2013-12-02 01:15:25 <nsh> Zarutian, where can i read more about this things with the stuff and words and all that?
131 2013-12-02 01:15:44 <nsh> (yurls, zooko's "triangle"?, etc.)
132 2013-12-02 01:16:01 <Zarutian> nsh: http://www.waterken.com/dev/YURL/
133 2013-12-02 01:16:21 <nsh> ty
134 2013-12-02 01:16:30 <Zarutian> nsh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle
135 2013-12-02 01:16:52 <nsh> oh, that's a real thing. i thought you were being figurative...
136 2013-12-02 01:17:01 <nsh> ah, right
137 2013-12-02 01:17:23 <Zarutian> nsh: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/squarezooko
138 2013-12-02 01:18:26 * nsh nods, sighs
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241 2013-12-02 02:54:25 <warren> It appears testnet has no miners again?
242 2013-12-02 02:55:04 <Luke-Jr> warren: so mine it?
243 2013-12-02 02:55:39 <saracen> It has begun: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%225HpHagT65TZzG1PH3CSu63k8DbpvD8s5ip4nEB3kEsrfg5cvjps%22
244 2013-12-02 02:55:42 <warren> Luke-Jr: I argued for removal of setgenerate, so it would be hypocritical to use it.
245 2013-12-02 02:55:46 Dennismckinnon has joined
246 2013-12-02 02:56:45 <freewil> is there an open debate about removal of setgenerate?
247 2013-12-02 02:57:14 <Luke-Jr> warren: I didn't say to use setgenerate
248 2013-12-02 02:57:18 <kjj> isn't testnet the best argument in favor of keeping it?
249 2013-12-02 02:57:38 <Luke-Jr> kjj: and not a very strong argument reallty
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252 2013-12-02 02:58:30 <freewil> when i started looking at litecoin i was kind of annoyed they removed it
253 2013-12-02 02:58:37 <freewil> but cpuminer is a great alternative
254 2013-12-02 02:58:54 <kjj> just remove mention of it from help
255 2013-12-02 02:58:58 <freewil> so it would probably be worth it just to remove some code to be maintained
256 2013-12-02 02:59:02 <warren> freewil: litecoin added it back
257 2013-12-02 02:59:07 <freewil> wha?
258 2013-12-02 02:59:08 <freewil> since when
259 2013-12-02 03:00:49 <freewil> i know its not in the latest release ... 0.8.5.1
260 2013-12-02 03:01:37 <freewil> thats why i use https://github.com/pooler/cpuminer in my litecoin-testnet-box
261 2013-12-02 03:01:45 <freewil> https://github.com/freewil/litecoin-testnet-box
262 2013-12-02 03:03:07 <rebroad> how does one mine on testnet?
263 2013-12-02 03:03:22 <andytoshi> i'll start mining, i've never mined a block on anything before..
264 2013-12-02 03:03:54 <andytoshi> rebroad: run bitcoind with -testnet, then you can use setgenerate :}
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268 2013-12-02 03:08:16 <warren> the external cpuminers are much faster than what bitcoin can do itself
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272 2013-12-02 03:09:34 <andytoshi> hmm, i'll track one of those down
273 2013-12-02 03:09:54 <kjj> who cares? testnet
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276 2013-12-02 03:11:55 <danneu> i'm investing in testnet. lots of gains potential
277 2013-12-02 03:12:55 <freewil> heh i always wondered if testnet would eventually became it's own altcoin with a it's own market
278 2013-12-02 03:13:11 <freewil> but i think that has been killed with multiple resets in new releases of testnet
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281 2013-12-02 03:14:27 <alex_fun> set generate is handy to mine with client
282 2013-12-02 03:14:42 <alex_fun> why would u want to remove it? :)
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285 2013-12-02 03:16:07 <andytoshi> alex_fun: because it's awful
286 2013-12-02 03:16:44 <toffoo> hi warren 0.8.6-mactest1 just corrupted for me
287 2013-12-02 03:16:48 <gavinandresen> if testnet coins start to become worth something, "we" will reset the chain. Don't trade them, please, it just wastes everybody's time.
288 2013-12-02 03:17:00 <warren> toffoo: oh crap
289 2013-12-02 03:17:33 <toffoo> it was upon restart
290 2013-12-02 03:17:33 <toffoo> did not crash
291 2013-12-02 03:17:37 cald has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
292 2013-12-02 03:17:41 <toffoo> asking me if I want to rebuild the block database now
293 2013-12-02 03:17:44 <warren> toffoo: do not
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295 2013-12-02 03:17:57 <andytoshi> is there a ./configure flag to disable building qt?
296 2013-12-02 03:18:02 <andytoshi> the qt gui*
297 2013-12-02 03:18:03 <warren> rescrv: corruption with your patch ...
298 2013-12-02 03:18:18 <warren> toffoo: please upload this chainstate again in tar.xz
299 2013-12-02 03:18:30 <toffoo> ok
300 2013-12-02 03:19:16 <andytoshi> --with-qt=no i think
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302 2013-12-02 03:21:03 <rebroad> I wonder if there is a way to make testnet coins worth negative something to offset the potential of them being worth something..
303 2013-12-02 03:21:28 <andytoshi> right now they are worth grumpy messages from gavin ;)
304 2013-12-02 03:21:48 agnostic_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
305 2013-12-02 03:21:56 <warren> rescrv: corruption with this branch this time, no crash
306 2013-12-02 03:21:59 <warren> rescrv: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/0.8.6
307 2013-12-02 03:22:12 <warren> cfields: ^
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309 2013-12-02 03:22:29 <gavinandresen> mmm. If you want to trade a worthless coin for real money, there are PLENTY of options these daysâ¦.
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311 2013-12-02 03:22:47 <rescrv> warren: where's the corrupted db?
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314 2013-12-02 03:23:54 <freewil> you could always start adding exceptions to testnet, but then it behaves less and less like the main chain
315 2013-12-02 03:24:12 <warren> rescrv: asked him to upload it
316 2013-12-02 03:25:06 <freewil> gavinandresen, ha - good point
317 2013-12-02 03:25:45 <cfields> anyone around running fedora or some non-debian-based distro?
318 2013-12-02 03:26:04 zcopley_ is now known as zcopley
319 2013-12-02 03:26:05 <rescrv> cfields: I have one here (VM)
320 2013-12-02 03:26:49 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
321 2013-12-02 03:27:09 <cfields> rescrv: mmm, i doubt you'd have all the glitter installed on a vm. I'm looking to know how they choose between qt4/qt5 tools
322 2013-12-02 03:28:06 airfull has joined
323 2013-12-02 03:28:14 omnidenmobile has joined
324 2013-12-02 03:28:16 <cfields> ubuntu uses 'qtchooser'. But it seems like a kludge that the other distro's wouldn't adopt
325 2013-12-02 03:28:18 <alex_fun> gavinandresen: 98 alts on cryptsy :D
326 2013-12-02 03:29:35 JesusFreak has joined
327 2013-12-02 03:29:40 <freewil> how can you have a market for these coins that are so easily finney-attacked
328 2013-12-02 03:32:00 handcuff has quit (Quit: Leaving)
329 2013-12-02 03:32:23 <alex_fun> easy
330 2013-12-02 03:32:31 <alex_fun> no one cares to hack them atm
331 2013-12-02 03:32:35 <gavinandresen> Maybe the biggest thing I've learned through bitcoin that I didn't know before: some people w ill trade ANYTHING that has a price.
332 2013-12-02 03:32:42 <alex_fun> cryptsy itself can be double spent easily I think :)
333 2013-12-02 03:32:43 <rebroad> would anyone like some testnet coins?
334 2013-12-02 03:33:14 <alex_fun> gavin coins next? with youtube video to promote them? :D
335 2013-12-02 03:33:33 <gavinandresen> no thanks
336 2013-12-02 03:33:36 <freewil> alex_fun, right, wouldnt it trivial to finney attack one of these altcoins, trade them, and withdraw some BTC
337 2013-12-02 03:33:47 <alex_fun> I wonder if google try to sue users of android coins
338 2013-12-02 03:33:48 <alex_fun> lol
339 2013-12-02 03:33:50 diki has joined
340 2013-12-02 03:33:54 <alex_fun> not that they can
341 2013-12-02 03:34:10 <alex_fun> hey diki ;)
342 2013-12-02 03:34:18 diki is now known as Guest75222
343 2013-12-02 03:34:32 <alex_fun> freewil: depends on their total hash
344 2013-12-02 03:34:41 <alex_fun> you would have to rent alot of gpus ;)
345 2013-12-02 03:35:01 <freewil> im assuming most of these altcoins have a relatively low hash rate
346 2013-12-02 03:35:03 <gavinandresen> I wonder how many of the altcoin exchanges are just long-cons like Sheep Marketplace, waiting until they have enough deposits to pull up stakes and disappear.
347 2013-12-02 03:35:28 Guest75222 has left ()
348 2013-12-02 03:35:39 <freewil> cryptsy seems to have an actual legal corporation behind it
349 2013-12-02 03:35:43 diki has joined
350 2013-12-02 03:35:47 <freewil> but i have done any actual looking into it
351 2013-12-02 03:35:49 <diki> alex_fun:hello, do I know you?
352 2013-12-02 03:35:56 <alex_fun> gavin satoshi successor coin - satoshi and fontas latest work :P
353 2013-12-02 03:35:57 <freewil> havent*
354 2013-12-02 03:36:01 <toffoo> corrupted chainstate upping, 21mins remaining...
355 2013-12-02 03:36:05 saigon has quit (Quit: Page closed)
356 2013-12-02 03:36:08 <alex_fun> diki yes from coin development lab
357 2013-12-02 03:36:09 <alex_fun> :)
358 2013-12-02 03:36:18 <diki> I am sorry, I don't remember.
359 2013-12-02 03:36:21 <alex_fun> np
360 2013-12-02 03:36:30 <diki> ah
361 2013-12-02 03:36:35 <diki> you mean noobcoin was it?
362 2013-12-02 03:36:36 <alex_fun> I dont mind been not remembered :P
363 2013-12-02 03:36:39 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
364 2013-12-02 03:36:39 <gavinandresen> mmm. cryptsy made the mistake (in my humble opinion) of issuing unregulated stockâ¦
365 2013-12-02 03:36:39 <alex_fun> yes :D
366 2013-12-02 03:37:02 <alex_fun> gavinandresen: cryptsy is like fake penny stock thingy
367 2013-12-02 03:37:03 <diki> Yes, I remember now.
368 2013-12-02 03:38:19 <freewil> gavinandresen, but their website has "full compliance" in bold
369 2013-12-02 03:38:23 <freewil> /sarc
370 2013-12-02 03:38:30 <gavinandresen> oh, then it MUST be legit
371 2013-12-02 03:38:33 <cfields> gavinandresen: do you still have your qt5 environment around? For a test to see if it's drop-in replaceable when i get this knocked out?
372 2013-12-02 03:38:36 <gavinandresen> my mistake
373 2013-12-02 03:38:44 <freewil> lolz
374 2013-12-02 03:38:45 <gavinandresen> cfields: yes
375 2013-12-02 03:38:49 <alex_fun> fully complied - clients Google, NASDAQ, Coca Cola
376 2013-12-02 03:38:53 <alex_fun> my new exchange :D
377 2013-12-02 03:39:10 <cfields> gavinandresen: great, thanks
378 2013-12-02 03:39:27 <alex_fun> money can be deposited now and withdrawal function come when there is donations to build it :)
379 2013-12-02 03:39:39 <cfields> toffoo: could you pastebin your log in the meantime to be sure it's worth the trouble of uploading?
380 2013-12-02 03:40:06 <cfields> just the part where it's exiting, ofc
381 2013-12-02 03:41:00 <toffoo> okay 1 moment..
382 2013-12-02 03:41:15 <rebroad> I know a lot of people who are buying litecoins now, purely because they can't afford an entire bitcoin. the psychological need to own a whole coin seems to be the main drive for the alt coins now..
383 2013-12-02 03:41:39 <Cryo> ^ this
384 2013-12-02 03:42:30 <alex_fun> yes
385 2013-12-02 03:42:34 <cfields> i can attest to that as well. Among the top 3 questions is always "how much is a coin worth?". These days, thee answer puts them off
386 2013-12-02 03:42:38 <alex_fun> and satoshi knew it imo
387 2013-12-02 03:42:47 <alex_fun> btc to make crypto popular
388 2013-12-02 03:42:50 <alex_fun> main task
389 2013-12-02 03:42:51 <alex_fun> :)
390 2013-12-02 03:42:59 <kjj> educate them
391 2013-12-02 03:43:06 <alex_fun> and heck its 1000 usd now so reward is plentiful :)
392 2013-12-02 03:43:14 <kjj> compare it to buying a half, quarter or tenth ounce of gold
393 2013-12-02 03:43:14 <gmaxwell> well, we could change things to use mbtc but people are aruging over that vs ubtc.
394 2013-12-02 03:43:16 <rebroad> what we need is a new name for a mBTC... let's call 1 mBTC a REBcoin!
395 2013-12-02 03:44:03 <rebroad> a fixed exchange rate 1000 rebcoins will always equal 1 bitcoin
396 2013-12-02 03:44:06 RoboTedd_ has joined
397 2013-12-02 03:44:13 <cfields> kjj: it's too ingrained. the smaller units need to catch hold.
398 2013-12-02 03:44:14 <rebroad> no need for any alts..
399 2013-12-02 03:44:21 <kjj> Buying 0.1 oz gold involves paying about 30% over spot. Buying fractional BTC has no premium
400 2013-12-02 03:44:35 <rebroad> cfields, they won't... people are dumb... the market is driven by psychology, not logic
401 2013-12-02 03:44:53 <kjj> cfields: if the units are a problem, they can come back at 10k when maybe they aren't so stupid any more
402 2013-12-02 03:45:20 Plinker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
403 2013-12-02 03:45:25 <andytoshi> during the runup to 1000 (when the mailing list was alight regarding ubtc vs mbtc) i agreed with the people saying ubtc..
404 2013-12-02 03:45:32 <rebroad> we need to allow bitcoin to evolve, and not get stiffled by these alt coins and their novelty value of owning a whole coin
405 2013-12-02 03:45:51 <andytoshi> but if the price is gonna hold at ~1000, we can't have individual units worth hundredth of a cent, that is really hard to think about
406 2013-12-02 03:45:56 <alex_fun> rebroad: yes however many people who buy alts purely cause they feel pissed offf at `missing` btc
407 2013-12-02 03:45:57 <alex_fun> :)
408 2013-12-02 03:46:14 <cfields> i'm not arguing for them, of course it's not a reasonable argument. but we're talking about people who are on the verge of learning about it. Can't fault them for not understanding at that point.
409 2013-12-02 03:46:17 <alex_fun> so mbtc anything btc u may have hard time selling to them :)
410 2013-12-02 03:46:26 macboz has joined
411 2013-12-02 03:46:56 <gmaxwell> just for pratical reasons, typical transactions are now pretty small values, mbtc just may be easier for people to deal with.
412 2013-12-02 03:47:01 <rebroad> so we're just going to have a series of cryptocoins, all reaching $1000 each, and each one being a successor to the last that did that?
413 2013-12-02 03:47:10 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
414 2013-12-02 03:47:20 <alex_fun> 1000 unlikely
415 2013-12-02 03:47:22 <gmaxwell> but I'm the last guy to ask I work all day with numbers in the range -1 .. 1. :)
416 2013-12-02 03:47:23 <alex_fun> for new alts
417 2013-12-02 03:47:36 metabyte has joined
418 2013-12-02 03:48:05 <kjj> gmaxwell: from that range, I'd think you did calculus, but real calculists only use 4 or 5 numbers from that range, not the whole range itself
419 2013-12-02 03:48:37 <rebroad> it's a shame bitcoin wasn't patented... all these alt coins could be stopped then for infringement :)
420 2013-12-02 03:49:09 <alex_fun> dream on ;)
421 2013-12-02 03:49:15 <gmaxwell> kjj: most signal processing work, you work with numbers normalized to ±1 (unless you're doing fixed point stuff)
422 2013-12-02 03:49:36 <cfields> has the idea of a split ever been considered? Similar to stocks? You could argue that it's useless since it's purely psychological, but that doesn't mean psychology should be ignored.
423 2013-12-02 03:49:49 <kjj> cfields: only a billion times on the forums
424 2013-12-02 03:50:09 <cfields> figured as much. I try to avoid that place :)
425 2013-12-02 03:50:15 groglogic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
426 2013-12-02 03:50:37 <kjj> it serves a purpose. nice to have all of the bad ideas in one place
427 2013-12-02 03:51:06 <cfields> actually, that's a really bad idea anyway. Not sure how that made it through my 60sec filter.
428 2013-12-02 03:51:12 bassin1 has joined
429 2013-12-02 03:51:15 <rebroad> we need a new name for mBTC....
430 2013-12-02 03:51:25 <rebroad> it needs to be as easy to say as bitcoin
431 2013-12-02 03:51:36 bassin1 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
432 2013-12-02 03:51:39 Sleepnbum has joined
433 2013-12-02 03:51:41 <rebroad> two syllables..
434 2013-12-02 03:52:01 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
435 2013-12-02 03:52:02 Sleepnbum is now known as Guest17824
436 2013-12-02 03:52:10 <rebroad> and a new name for uBTC at the ready also
437 2013-12-02 03:52:28 bassin1 has joined
438 2013-12-02 03:52:44 phrackage has quit (Quit: phrackage)
439 2013-12-02 03:52:47 <rebroad> how about a simple refactor.. let mBTC be the new bitcoin.. just move the decimal point.
440 2013-12-02 03:52:52 <kjj> as always, I propose that we wait for a name to show up
441 2013-12-02 03:53:11 <rebroad> or start counting in Satoshis
442 2013-12-02 03:53:18 bassin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
443 2013-12-02 03:53:19 go1111111 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
444 2013-12-02 03:53:19 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
445 2013-12-02 03:53:32 <toffoo> warren cfields rescrv debug.log http://pastebin.com/VQbvZDDr
446 2013-12-02 03:53:34 <kjj> the client already counts in satoshis, which is why there are satoshis
447 2013-12-02 03:54:15 <cfields> toffoo: ok, thanks
448 2013-12-02 03:54:16 <rebroad> ok, so no one has missed the boat on satoshis... they are still dirt cheap..
449 2013-12-02 03:54:28 phrackage has joined
450 2013-12-02 03:54:31 <kjj> and you are free to change your local node to present that value in whatever way you wish, but you are in for an interesting couple of days if you change it so that 1.0!=1.0
451 2013-12-02 03:54:35 <rebroad> let's start making 1 satoshi coins...
452 2013-12-02 03:55:42 <rebroad> or find a way to show numbers without a decimal point... no one likes the idea of a 0.01 bitcoin coin much..
453 2013-12-02 03:55:50 michael_lee has joined
454 2013-12-02 03:55:53 xiangfu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
455 2013-12-02 03:55:54 <cfields> kjj: many arches will happily agree that 1.0f != 1.0f
456 2013-12-02 03:56:00 <Cryo> toffoo, is the client compiled with gcc or clang
457 2013-12-02 03:56:32 HaltingState has joined
458 2013-12-02 03:56:32 HaltingState has quit (Changing host)
459 2013-12-02 03:56:32 HaltingState has joined
460 2013-12-02 03:56:34 <cfields> as i'm sure gmaxwell is all-too-aware ;)
461 2013-12-02 03:57:23 <toffoo> Cryo no idea, it's from warren
462 2013-12-02 03:57:39 <toffoo> warren cfields rescrv https://www.dropbox.com/s/gf9cahbqkewt6rx/toffoo0.8.6-mactest1-chainstateCORRUPTED.tar.xz
463 2013-12-02 03:57:41 <cfields> it's gcc
464 2013-12-02 03:57:44 <rebroad> a new name for mBTC.... hmmm... a 10 millibit coin..
465 2013-12-02 03:57:51 gruez has quit (Quit: Page closed)
466 2013-12-02 03:58:16 <Cryo> just wondering if the database corruption is a clang bug, and if building with gcc would 'fix it'
467 2013-12-02 03:59:38 airfull has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
468 2013-12-02 04:00:27 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
469 2013-12-02 04:00:30 protosahre has joined
470 2013-12-02 04:00:32 protosahre has quit (Excess Flood)
471 2013-12-02 04:00:52 protosahre has joined
472 2013-12-02 04:00:54 protosahre has quit (Excess Flood)
473 2013-12-02 04:01:16 sp4ke has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
474 2013-12-02 04:01:54 <shesek> anyone knows if bitcointalk is going to be back any time soon?
475 2013-12-02 04:02:00 rescrv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
476 2013-12-02 04:02:14 protosahre has joined
477 2013-12-02 04:02:16 protosahre has quit (Excess Flood)
478 2013-12-02 04:02:17 <alex_fun> shesek he got plenty of cash the forum owner so ask him
479 2013-12-02 04:02:18 <alex_fun> ;)
480 2013-12-02 04:02:23 <alex_fun> to rent more aws servers
481 2013-12-02 04:02:54 protosahre has joined
482 2013-12-02 04:02:56 protosahre has quit (Excess Flood)
483 2013-12-02 04:03:01 agnostic98 has joined
484 2013-12-02 04:03:33 <alex_fun> what if someone ddos bitcoin dns resolvers?
485 2013-12-02 04:03:33 protosahre has joined
486 2013-12-02 04:03:33 Plinker_ has joined
487 2013-12-02 04:03:37 <alex_fun> would that make it stuck?
488 2013-12-02 04:03:41 <alex_fun> for a while
489 2013-12-02 04:03:44 <Luke-Jr> .. no?
490 2013-12-02 04:03:53 <Luke-Jr> they're only used as a last resory
491 2013-12-02 04:03:56 <alex_fun> just wonder how is dns connection work, versus old irc one
492 2013-12-02 04:03:56 <Luke-Jr> resort*
493 2013-12-02 04:03:58 <alex_fun> oki
494 2013-12-02 04:04:04 Subo1977 has joined
495 2013-12-02 04:04:16 <alex_fun> I forgot that its indeed last resort :)
496 2013-12-02 04:05:06 <phantomcircuit> sipa, so i went and cleared a few hundred gb of space
497 2013-12-02 04:05:11 <phantomcircuit> and im still getting that same error
498 2013-12-02 04:05:13 cyphase has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
499 2013-12-02 04:05:18 <phantomcircuit> but only with my modified leveldb
500 2013-12-02 04:06:15 RoboTedd_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
501 2013-12-02 04:06:31 [\\\] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
502 2013-12-02 04:06:42 wereHamster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
503 2013-12-02 04:06:48 RoboTeddy has joined
504 2013-12-02 04:06:49 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
505 2013-12-02 04:06:57 Lifeofcray has joined
506 2013-12-02 04:07:45 wereHamster has joined
507 2013-12-02 04:07:52 cyphase has joined
508 2013-12-02 04:08:10 metabyte has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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511 2013-12-02 04:09:29 <Lifeofcray> hey guys
512 2013-12-02 04:09:39 <alex_fun> :)
513 2013-12-02 04:09:41 <alex_fun> hi
514 2013-12-02 04:09:56 <alex_fun> there are girls here too like Alina :D
515 2013-12-02 04:10:05 <Lifeofcray> i have a question, tryign to code a php page with json
516 2013-12-02 04:10:31 <Lifeofcray> do i have to wait for the bitcoin client to finish updating then etwork stuff
517 2013-12-02 04:10:43 <Lifeofcray> before i can run commands such as getnewadress
518 2013-12-02 04:11:04 <andytoshi> Lifeofcray: getnewaddress should work
519 2013-12-02 04:11:15 <Lifeofcray> getinfo() works fine, but as soon as i try to do that everything just breaks
520 2013-12-02 04:12:56 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, getnewaddress should work
521 2013-12-02 04:13:06 richcollins has joined
522 2013-12-02 04:13:08 <phantomcircuit> what is the exact error?
523 2013-12-02 04:13:21 <Lifeofcray> the php page just loads forever
524 2013-12-02 04:13:32 jgarzik is now known as home_jg
525 2013-12-02 04:13:49 Nesetalis has joined
526 2013-12-02 04:16:07 Guest17824 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
527 2013-12-02 04:16:08 <Lifeofcray> meh, ill just let it finish anyway, continue tomorrow
528 2013-12-02 04:16:16 <andytoshi> i bet it'll work in a couple minutes..
529 2013-12-02 04:16:23 <andytoshi> but yeah, best to let it sync
530 2013-12-02 04:16:28 <phantomcircuit> possibly it's blocking waiting for a lock on the wallet
531 2013-12-02 04:16:46 <Lifeofcray> i have no idea what that means, i just started doing this today
532 2013-12-02 04:16:56 richcollins has quit (Client Quit)
533 2013-12-02 04:17:08 gdoteof has joined
534 2013-12-02 04:17:12 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, the rpc stuff acquires a lock, so the blocksync might have that lock
535 2013-12-02 04:17:19 <phantomcircuit> thus your rpc call will block until it's done
536 2013-12-02 04:17:19 <Lifeofcray> ah
537 2013-12-02 04:17:28 richcollins has joined
538 2013-12-02 04:17:30 <phantomcircuit> but it *should* only block for smallish periods of time
539 2013-12-02 04:17:40 <phantomcircuit> but i assume you're using some terrible vps
540 2013-12-02 04:17:46 <gdoteof> anyone have a good idea how electrum works that can give me some insight? there is/was a wordpress plugin that took only the 'master publickey' as its input
541 2013-12-02 04:17:51 <Lifeofcray> home test server
542 2013-12-02 04:18:17 <phantomcircuit> gdoteof, #electrum
543 2013-12-02 04:19:02 <gdoteof> then there is an issue where people are saying "dont upgrade to 1.9.4" since it will break the store. how can it possibly break the store
544 2013-12-02 04:19:05 bassin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
545 2013-12-02 04:19:08 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i wonder if im somehow using more filedescriptors or something
546 2013-12-02 04:19:19 <gdoteof> phantomcircuit: i know. i did, and i should be patient. but its dead
547 2013-12-02 04:19:47 <Lifeofcray> how about some more general questions
548 2013-12-02 04:19:54 <phantomcircuit> why would you think asking her would help you?
549 2013-12-02 04:20:04 <phantomcircuit> this channel is almost entirely about the bitcoin-qt reference client
550 2013-12-02 04:20:14 <Lifeofcray> from what I understand, the bitcoin client got some built in account management
551 2013-12-02 04:20:23 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, do not use that
552 2013-12-02 04:20:29 <phantomcircuit> it's impossible to have a proper backup
553 2013-12-02 04:20:31 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
554 2013-12-02 04:20:41 <Lifeofcray> well that's good to know
555 2013-12-02 04:20:46 <Lifeofcray> what should I do instead?
556 2013-12-02 04:20:47 <phantomcircuit> you'd have to do a complete backup after almost any rpc call
557 2013-12-02 04:21:03 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, use an external database to maintain account/invoice information
558 2013-12-02 04:21:15 Arnavion has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
559 2013-12-02 04:21:38 <Lifeofcray> so basically just store peoples information and how much BTC they have in mysql?
560 2013-12-02 04:21:41 <alex_fun> :)
561 2013-12-02 04:21:47 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, yes
562 2013-12-02 04:21:49 erans_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
563 2013-12-02 04:21:58 <Lifeofcray> but how does that work with payments?
564 2013-12-02 04:21:59 omnidenmobile has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
565 2013-12-02 04:22:16 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, what are you trying to accomplish
566 2013-12-02 04:22:53 <Lifeofcray> a simple buy/sell site
567 2013-12-02 04:23:13 <Lifeofcray> user 1 puts up an ad, user 2 pays user 1
568 2013-12-02 04:23:13 <phantomcircuit> that doesn't mean anything to me
569 2013-12-02 04:23:24 <Lifeofcray> i take a small fee
570 2013-12-02 04:23:40 bassin has joined
571 2013-12-02 04:23:45 <andytoshi> Lifeofcray: the moral is, track balances yourself, just use bitcoind for address generation and network interaction
572 2013-12-02 04:23:58 n0n0 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
573 2013-12-02 04:24:06 bassin has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
574 2013-12-02 04:24:19 <Lifeofcray> is it possible to give every user their own adress then?
575 2013-12-02 04:24:28 <Lifeofcray> and just have the site check balance on that one
576 2013-12-02 04:24:43 <Luke-Jr> Lifeofcray: um, with bitcoin every *transaction* needs its own address
577 2013-12-02 04:24:52 <Luke-Jr> addresses don't have balances
578 2013-12-02 04:25:38 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, you should assign an address to each transactions they do, if you maintain a site "account" balance then change the displayed address when a transaction pays to that address
579 2013-12-02 04:25:51 bassin has joined
580 2013-12-02 04:26:17 bassin has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
581 2013-12-02 04:26:42 <warren> cfields: i have fedora
582 2013-12-02 04:26:54 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, https://gitorious.org/vibanko/vibanko/source/master:
583 2013-12-02 04:26:58 <cfields> warren: you have qt4/qt5 installed?
584 2013-12-02 04:27:02 <warren> cfields: I can
585 2013-12-02 04:27:06 <phantomcircuit> that's an example of a very simple correctly implemented web wallet
586 2013-12-02 04:27:19 <warren> cfields: installing
587 2013-12-02 04:27:24 <cfields> warren: thanks
588 2013-12-02 04:27:24 bassin has joined
589 2013-12-02 04:28:50 <warren> did toffoo upload his chainstate?
590 2013-12-02 04:28:57 <alex_fun> Lifeofcray: do you want to make exchange? :D
591 2013-12-02 04:29:01 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
592 2013-12-02 04:29:04 <Lifeofcray> naa not exchange
593 2013-12-02 04:29:12 omniden has joined
594 2013-12-02 04:29:15 <Lifeofcray> mostly just playing around
595 2013-12-02 04:29:25 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
596 2013-12-02 04:29:39 erans_ has joined
597 2013-12-02 04:29:44 <alex_fun> well if you dont want to say how your expect some more advice? :)
598 2013-12-02 04:29:48 <alex_fun> *you
599 2013-12-02 04:29:57 rescrv has joined
600 2013-12-02 04:30:02 <phantomcircuit> 2013-12-02 04:12:24 ERROR: CBlockUndo::WriteToDisk() : ftell failed
601 2013-12-02 04:30:03 <phantomcircuit> wat
602 2013-12-02 04:30:10 <Lifeofcray> well first thing i want to create is just a simple web wallet
603 2013-12-02 04:30:13 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
604 2013-12-02 04:30:14 <Lifeofcray> something like blockchain
605 2013-12-02 04:30:49 <phantomcircuit> how is it even possible for that to fail
606 2013-12-02 04:31:03 <alex_fun> I think maybe Kim Dot Com can add we wallets function to his storage site :)
607 2013-12-02 04:31:21 <alex_fun> by the way ramnode have sale and asking users if they want to use btc :D
608 2013-12-02 04:31:28 <alex_fun> to pay for nodes
609 2013-12-02 04:32:30 <Lifeofcray> could you guys eli5 me real quick on how bitcoin wallets work?
610 2013-12-02 04:32:34 <andytoshi> phantomcircuit: the write stream must've closed somehow?
611 2013-12-02 04:33:02 richcollins has joined
612 2013-12-02 04:33:03 <phantomcircuit> wait how does that ever work
613 2013-12-02 04:33:09 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
614 2013-12-02 04:33:15 <phantomcircuit> CAutoFile fileout = CAutoFile(OpenUndoFile(pos), SER_DISK, CLIENT_VERSION);long fileOutPos = ftell(fileout);
615 2013-12-02 04:33:19 <phantomcircuit> fileout isn't a FILE*
616 2013-12-02 04:33:30 <andytoshi> c++ magic no doubt
617 2013-12-02 04:34:03 <andytoshi> there should be a feature request to port bitcoind to rust..
618 2013-12-02 04:34:18 <alex_fun> Lifeofcray: imo webwallet is most secure when stores notional balance only
619 2013-12-02 04:35:01 <alex_fun> then they telephone you to make transfer :D
620 2013-12-02 04:35:03 <andytoshi> phantomcircuit: in serialize.h CAutoFile is defined, it overloads * and ->
621 2013-12-02 04:35:05 <alex_fun> from cold wallet
622 2013-12-02 04:35:09 <andytoshi> to return a FILE*...
623 2013-12-02 04:35:23 <phantomcircuit> oh god it does...
624 2013-12-02 04:35:35 a_meteor has joined
625 2013-12-02 04:35:39 <andytoshi> ha! that is satoshi code for you
626 2013-12-02 04:35:48 <andytoshi> git blame even blames him..
627 2013-12-02 04:36:01 <alex_fun> his code is simple so people can make alts easily
628 2013-12-02 04:36:08 <alex_fun> works just fine
629 2013-12-02 04:36:40 <Lifeofcray> so an adress just tracks how much gets sent to it?
630 2013-12-02 04:37:05 <andytoshi> Lifeofcray: an address doesn't track anything, it is used interally to construct transactions
631 2013-12-02 04:37:35 <alex_fun> bitcoin can benefit from gamification
632 2013-12-02 04:37:46 <andytoshi> oh man wtf,
633 2013-12-02 04:37:46 <alex_fun> well crypto in general :)
634 2013-12-02 04:37:48 <andytoshi> FILE** operator&() { return &file; }
635 2013-12-02 04:37:52 <Lifeofcray> this hurts my head
636 2013-12-02 04:37:58 <phantomcircuit> andytoshi, lol
637 2013-12-02 04:38:00 <alex_fun> lolol
638 2013-12-02 04:38:49 <alex_fun> Lifeofcray: coins ownership is registered in the 2p2 register
639 2013-12-02 04:38:57 <alex_fun> when u want to sent coins you use key
640 2013-12-02 04:40:19 <phantomcircuit> Bad file descriptor
641 2013-12-02 04:40:22 <phantomcircuit> wtf
642 2013-12-02 04:40:28 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
643 2013-12-02 04:40:36 <Lifeofcray> so i got an adress, someone sends me money, networks keeps track on how much money that adress is worth?
644 2013-12-02 04:40:40 andrys has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
645 2013-12-02 04:40:48 <gdoteof> okay i don't want to spam this room; but #electrum is dead; if someone that knows has an understanding of how it works can give a me a few minutes in PM i would appreciateit
646 2013-12-02 04:41:13 <Lifeofcray> and the bitcoin client keeps track of how much has been sent to and from that adress with the help of the network?
647 2013-12-02 04:42:07 richcollins has joined
648 2013-12-02 04:43:07 <phantomcircuit> ah i found it
649 2013-12-02 04:43:09 <Lifeofcray> Cant I just asign every user their own adress and have my website check the transactions to see how much money that adress is worth?
650 2013-12-02 04:43:14 <phantomcircuit> apparently leveldb can call close() multiple times
651 2013-12-02 04:43:22 <phantomcircuit> tricky tricky
652 2013-12-02 04:43:26 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
653 2013-12-02 04:43:49 beethoven8201 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
654 2013-12-02 04:43:49 <freewil> Lifeofcray, yes that is the basic idea
655 2013-12-02 04:44:11 <freewil> although depending on what you are doing you may want to use a new address per transaction (purchase) rather than just per user
656 2013-12-02 04:44:28 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, you can track how much has been sent to an address, but not how much has been sent from it
657 2013-12-02 04:44:29 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
658 2013-12-02 04:45:05 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, a wallet is a collection of spendable outputs, when you call sendtoaddress() it will pick the outputs that make the best transaction
659 2013-12-02 04:45:05 <Lifeofcray> i see
660 2013-12-02 04:45:16 <phantomcircuit> so you cannot calculate an address balance that means anything
661 2013-12-02 04:45:31 <phantomcircuit> you can calculate the total bitcoins sent to an address though
662 2013-12-02 04:45:32 Jason has left ()
663 2013-12-02 04:45:42 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, does that help?
664 2013-12-02 04:46:07 <Lifeofcray> so if i make a site, keep track on how much they send, and how much is transfered to their adress, i can just do ammount_in - ammount_out?
665 2013-12-02 04:46:31 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, take a look at this
666 2013-12-02 04:46:31 <phantomcircuit> https://gitorious.org/vibanko/vibanko/source/master:
667 2013-12-02 04:46:42 <phantomcircuit> it's a webwallet but i suspect it's similar to what you want to do
668 2013-12-02 04:46:43 <Lifeofcray> i will, just trying to get the basic gist of it
669 2013-12-02 04:46:54 <phantomcircuit> Lifeofcray, it's a *very* basic example
670 2013-12-02 04:47:28 <kjj> fuck. I just had this exact same conversation with someone last night, and a couple more times earlier in the week. we need a FAQ
671 2013-12-02 04:47:51 <alex_fun> i can help with FAQ
672 2013-12-02 04:48:02 <alex_fun> I can collate it a bit
673 2013-12-02 04:48:05 <freewil> theres probably one on the wiki
674 2013-12-02 04:48:13 <alex_fun> yeppa
675 2013-12-02 04:48:14 <Lifeofcray> if(bccomp($balance,$_POST['amount'],8) < 0)
676 2013-12-02 04:48:20 <alex_fun> its a bit random yet good
677 2013-12-02 04:48:21 <Lifeofcray> seems as if that's how they do it
678 2013-12-02 04:49:03 <alex_fun> (6:41:55 AM) phantomcircuit: so you cannot calculate an address balance that means SR coins that were confiscated could of been spent already?
679 2013-12-02 04:49:03 <alex_fun> :)
680 2013-12-02 04:49:33 Arnavion has joined
681 2013-12-02 04:50:06 <Lifeofcray> well, doesnt seem all that hard now
682 2013-12-02 04:50:40 <Lifeofcray> thanks guys, i feel a bit smarter
683 2013-12-02 04:51:20 <Lifeofcray> i take it litecoin and other coins work in the same manner?
684 2013-12-02 04:51:44 <Lifeofcray> say if i code somethign that works for bitcoin, it wouldnt be hard to copy that code to work for the otehrs?
685 2013-12-02 04:51:45 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
686 2013-12-02 04:52:00 <freewil> litecoin's jsonrpc is exactly the same
687 2013-12-02 04:52:05 <freewil> cant comment on the other ones
688 2013-12-02 04:52:32 <kjj> you should get nearly 100% coverage of the scamcoin market
689 2013-12-02 04:52:52 iddo has joined
690 2013-12-02 04:53:05 <alex_fun> hehehe
691 2013-12-02 04:53:07 <kjj> since those are all just bitcoin with a different genesis hash and if they are really clever, a different port
692 2013-12-02 04:53:09 usr232 has joined
693 2013-12-02 04:53:26 <alex_fun> kjj they do use diff port
694 2013-12-02 04:53:33 <alex_fun> and diff magic bits by some :D
695 2013-12-02 04:53:53 <alex_fun> http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=scrypt_altcoin_cloning_guide
696 2013-12-02 04:54:05 <alex_fun> misses some details yet overall fine
697 2013-12-02 04:54:37 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
698 2013-12-02 04:55:35 brson has joined
699 2013-12-02 04:55:42 <Lifeofcray> haha
700 2013-12-02 04:56:02 <Lifeofcray> well, it would be nice to see bitcoin stop jumping around in value
701 2013-12-02 04:56:08 <alex_fun> Lifeofcray: so u plan to make coin now? let me know when its ready to mine :P
702 2013-12-02 04:56:29 <Lifeofcray> ready to mine?
703 2013-12-02 04:56:46 erans_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
704 2013-12-02 04:56:58 <alex_fun> crypto can stop jumping in value when you premine 100% and back by gold or silver
705 2013-12-02 04:57:01 <alex_fun> or something like that
706 2013-12-02 04:57:05 <alex_fun> or 1:1 to usd
707 2013-12-02 04:57:07 RoboTeddy has joined
708 2013-12-02 04:57:19 <alex_fun> in essense same as yandex money but p2p
709 2013-12-02 04:58:10 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
710 2013-12-02 04:58:10 <Lifeofcray> i just know that's it's going to be fun to see how an deflatory currency will work in our world
711 2013-12-02 04:58:31 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
712 2013-12-02 04:58:51 richcollins has joined
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714 2013-12-02 04:58:58 <Lifeofcray> but at it is now, it's growing to much in value to be used as a "real" currency
715 2013-12-02 04:59:00 iddo has joined
716 2013-12-02 04:59:13 <alex_fun> is it deflatory? hehe
717 2013-12-02 04:59:23 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
718 2013-12-02 04:59:24 ranger__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
719 2013-12-02 04:59:26 <alex_fun> depends on people point of view
720 2013-12-02 04:59:34 [7] has joined
721 2013-12-02 04:59:59 <Lifeofcray> there's a fixed amount of bitcoins, coins get lost every day
722 2013-12-02 05:00:01 <Lifeofcray> so yeah
723 2013-12-02 05:00:08 <gdoteof> okay, i take back my requests for help w/r/t electrum
724 2013-12-02 05:00:14 <gdoteof> i figured out what was going on.
725 2013-12-02 05:01:04 <Lifeofcray> it's kind of hard to justify using bitcoins on buying groceries if the value goes up by 20% the next day
726 2013-12-02 05:01:48 <kjj> I hear that often. but I still bought a bunch of computer parts from bitcoinstore.com the other day (around $700 rate at the time)
727 2013-12-02 05:03:08 <Lifeofcray> well, the average consumer
728 2013-12-02 05:03:51 <Lifeofcray> and it kind of sucks if you get paid 1000 usd in a monthly salary in btc
729 2013-12-02 05:03:54 <kjj> I'm not sure what property I have that makes me different from "the average consumer"
730 2013-12-02 05:03:57 <Lifeofcray> and it crashes the next day
731 2013-12-02 05:04:16 <Lifeofcray> and you have to buy stuff tomorrow
732 2013-12-02 05:04:21 <freewil> kjj, you're on irc
733 2013-12-02 05:04:23 hnz has joined
734 2013-12-02 05:04:29 <gdoteof> Lifeofcray: i bought a bunch of food on foodler and then bitcoin crashed 20% the next day
735 2013-12-02 05:04:31 <Lifeofcray> and the market doesnt go up again for another two weeks
736 2013-12-02 05:04:33 <gdoteof> so your argument is invalid
737 2013-12-02 05:04:34 Happy_Meal has joined
738 2013-12-02 05:04:53 <Lifeofcray> gdoteof it's not really invalid, people want security
739 2013-12-02 05:05:09 <kjj> it's the same old circular argument. bitcoin can't get big because it isn't big. which is nonsense
740 2013-12-02 05:05:22 <Lifeofcray> that's another argument completly
741 2013-12-02 05:05:29 <gdoteof> Lifeofcray: people clearly want bitcoin though
742 2013-12-02 05:05:30 <Lifeofcray> if bitcoins gets bigger
743 2013-12-02 05:05:34 <Lifeofcray> it'll be more stable
744 2013-12-02 05:05:52 <gdoteof> this whole "people dont want it bexause of xyz" is pure conjecture that has historically been false
745 2013-12-02 05:06:11 <Lifeofcray> but if i work, and I get paid 1000 usd a month, and rent it 600
746 2013-12-02 05:06:18 <Lifeofcray> i want a stable currency
747 2013-12-02 05:06:25 <gdoteof> then you would be an idiot to keep allof your moneyh in bitcoin
748 2013-12-02 05:06:43 <Lifeofcray> and that's why it's more of an investment than a "real" currency right now
749 2013-12-02 05:06:47 <Lifeofcray> which stability would fix
750 2013-12-02 05:06:55 <kjj> this is way off topic, by the way
751 2013-12-02 05:07:01 MarkyRamone has quit (Quit: MarkyRamone)
752 2013-12-02 05:07:05 <Lifeofcray> because you would indeed be an idiot to have all your cash in bitcoins
753 2013-12-02 05:07:10 <Happy_Meal> Hi, I asked this in bitcoin and haven't gotten an answer so I was wondering if someone here could point me to a resource explaining what exactly bitcoin is. I keep reading that new coins are created once an sha-256 hash has been found that meets certain characteristics. I get this but what doesn't make sense is, what exactly is the thing that is created?
754 2013-12-02 05:07:28 Auctus has joined
755 2013-12-02 05:07:34 <kjj> Happy_Meal: what is created is an entry in the ledger
756 2013-12-02 05:07:54 <kjj> and bitcoin is, essentially, a global distributed ledger
757 2013-12-02 05:08:14 <gdoteof> Happy_Meal: check out http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
758 2013-12-02 05:08:21 <phantomcircuit> warren, https://github.com/pstratem/bitcoin/tree/leveldbnommap
759 2013-12-02 05:08:35 <gdoteof> Happy_Meal: the thing that gets created is an entry in the ledger
760 2013-12-02 05:08:38 <phantomcircuit> i bet that fixes effectively all the issues on os x
761 2013-12-02 05:08:53 <phantomcircuit> and bitcoin already internally buffers everything so the performance hit is trivial
762 2013-12-02 05:08:55 <warren> phantomcircuit: rescrv claims this approach won't help other things, but I'll try it.
763 2013-12-02 05:09:13 <phantomcircuit> warren, im sure there are other issues with leveldb
764 2013-12-02 05:09:25 <phantomcircuit> specifically it doesn't handle a bunch of fairly common failure modes for hdds
765 2013-12-02 05:09:26 <gdoteof> imagine you were playing a game with your friends called "get to punch someone" and you played the game by watching southpark and everytime cartman said bitch you rolled a dice
766 2013-12-02 05:09:35 <warren> phantomcircuit: how marginal is marginal?
767 2013-12-02 05:09:39 <phantomcircuit> but the fix for that would not be backwards compatible
768 2013-12-02 05:09:45 <gdoteof> and the number the dice corresponded to decided who got a token
769 2013-12-02 05:09:57 <phantomcircuit> warren, 1-100k blocks i measured a 1 second increase in processing time
770 2013-12-02 05:10:02 <warren> OMG
771 2013-12-02 05:10:06 <gdoteof> then with that token, they could spend it by giving it to osmeone; which gives them the right within the rules of the game
772 2013-12-02 05:10:09 <gdoteof> to punch them
773 2013-12-02 05:10:15 <gdoteof> bitcoin are like those tokens
774 2013-12-02 05:10:23 arioBarzan has joined
775 2013-12-02 05:10:28 <gdoteof> there can be infinite of them that have nothing to do with the game
776 2013-12-02 05:10:29 <kjj> except there are no punches
777 2013-12-02 05:10:34 <gdoteof> but to play the game fairly, which everyone enforces
778 2013-12-02 05:10:37 <phantomcircuit> warren, i'll run them again to 250k
779 2013-12-02 05:10:48 <gdoteof> only the tokens that came into the game through the legit rules get accepted
780 2013-12-02 05:10:59 <warren> phantomcircuit: do you think this adds any risk to linux/win32 that were otherwise fine?
781 2013-12-02 05:11:12 <phantomcircuit> warren, no
782 2013-12-02 05:11:13 <warren> phantomcircuit: we're on the edge of making a release ...
783 2013-12-02 05:11:15 * alex_fun run kji average customer test, 50% 60% 90% IRC presense detected, failed :D
784 2013-12-02 05:11:36 <phantomcircuit> warren, look at the patch, it's actually very simple
785 2013-12-02 05:12:05 <rescrv> phantomcircuit, warren: you may want to error out on short writes too
786 2013-12-02 05:12:11 <Happy_Meal> The entry in the ledger is a list of all transactions between the current block and the new block created right? With each successful win, comes (currently) 25 bitcoins. That's what I was asking. What determines how many bitcoins are newly created. Also, thanks for the link to the pdf.
787 2013-12-02 05:12:15 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, this does
788 2013-12-02 05:12:18 <phantomcircuit> i think
789 2013-12-02 05:12:24 <phantomcircuit> let me double check
790 2013-12-02 05:12:41 ranger__ has joined
791 2013-12-02 05:12:42 <phantomcircuit> oh it doesn't
792 2013-12-02 05:12:44 <phantomcircuit> let me fix that
793 2013-12-02 05:13:08 <gdoteof> Happy_Meal: no the ledger is a list of all transactions from the first block ever (aka genesis block) to the currently created block
794 2013-12-02 05:13:36 <warren> phantomcircuit: rescrv: I'm burning myself trying to get 10 things done before moving in 6 days. I'm relying on you folks to figure out how to fix this. I can do builds.
795 2013-12-02 05:13:37 <gdoteof> you can think of it essentially just as a list of addresses that have balances
796 2013-12-02 05:13:58 <gdoteof> Happy_Meal: it is just part of the protocol. it is 25 now
797 2013-12-02 05:14:00 <kjj> Happy_Meal: there is a subsidy function. the finder of a block can create no more than 25 BTC (currently)
798 2013-12-02 05:14:10 <gdoteof> it used to be 50, in a couple years it will be 12.5 then 6.25 etc..
799 2013-12-02 05:14:18 <warren> rescrv: saw toffoo's chainstate and debug.log?
800 2013-12-02 05:14:33 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, if only write set errno on a short write this would be so easy
801 2013-12-02 05:14:37 <kjj> gdeteof: except that there are no balances, and not everything in the ledger is or has an address
802 2013-12-02 05:14:44 <Happy_Meal> So essentially the points are purely conceptual and not enforced by math but by group agreement?
803 2013-12-02 05:14:58 <gdoteof> Happy_Meal: we should take this to #bitcoin
804 2013-12-02 05:15:12 <Happy_Meal> sorry and OK
805 2013-12-02 05:15:39 melvster has joined
806 2013-12-02 05:17:53 wei__ has joined
807 2013-12-02 05:19:02 <rescrv> warren: I saw toffoo's post. Here's my current take: We're working with many customers with LevelDB in production. So is Basho (the Riak folks). We've not encountered such a corruption error in LevelDB other than the one that would be explained by my patch. Toffoo's current error looks like a bitflip or a memory corruption bug, and the crashes he was getting would indicate the same. I would
808 2013-12-02 05:19:05 <rescrv> strongly suggest that toffoo run a memtest, and that he run a build linking against ElectricFence for the next round of debugging.
809 2013-12-02 05:20:03 <warren> rescrv: I know very little about mac dev and I'm out of time. someone else would need to supply him builds. I suggest gavinandresen, as my build environment is modeled after his.
810 2013-12-02 05:20:51 <warren> rescrv: while toffoo is among the rare users who experience any corruption, the behavior he sees has been nearly identical to coblee
811 2013-12-02 05:20:56 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, the way bitcoin writes to leveldb (sequentially in large chunks from a single thread) the difference between mmap and pread/write is almost nonexistent
812 2013-12-02 05:20:57 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
813 2013-12-02 05:21:36 Ozymandus has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
814 2013-12-02 05:22:07 Dennismckinnon_ has joined
815 2013-12-02 05:22:51 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, do you know if leveldb has version numbers for their databases?
816 2013-12-02 05:22:59 tw1243 has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
817 2013-12-02 05:23:05 <phantomcircuit> i would like to add sequence numbers to the journal but that is not backwards compatible
818 2013-12-02 05:23:11 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: version numbers signalling?
819 2013-12-02 05:23:27 RoboTedd_ has joined
820 2013-12-02 05:23:35 <gmaxwell> rescrv: we've had many reports of corruption, though indeed, it may well be that any particular tester has flaky hardware. Though I would be somewhat surprised if bitflips in _ram_ only manifest this way: bitcoin probably does 10000x the amount of sha256 than it does leveldb operations, and all of it is checked and produces distinctive screams that toffoo hasn't been seeing.
821 2013-12-02 05:23:41 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
822 2013-12-02 05:23:43 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, like can i increment a version number somewhere to indicate this leveldb cannot read any previous versions database
823 2013-12-02 05:23:51 <gmaxwell> rescrv: bitflips in sata or the drive would be more likely than in ram, if bitflips are indeed part of his issue.
824 2013-12-02 05:23:53 johnsoft has joined
825 2013-12-02 05:23:57 Happy_Meal has quit (Quit: Leaving)
826 2013-12-02 05:24:17 <toffoo> also, bitcoin0.7.2 (and all previous versions) work perfectly, as does all other software
827 2013-12-02 05:24:19 owowo has quit (Quit: 8 ~~ S4n1tY 1S Fut1l3 ~~ 8)
828 2013-12-02 05:24:19 Dennismckinnon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
829 2013-12-02 05:24:25 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: no version number. You'd probably do best to modify the CURRENT file
830 2013-12-02 05:24:57 Gohiis has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
831 2013-12-02 05:25:44 <warren> FYI: We're considering partially sponsoring cfields to go to the Vegas Bitcoin conference. I hope others see value in donating to him so he can attend.
832 2013-12-02 05:26:22 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
833 2013-12-02 05:26:23 <warren> Or maybe it would be more valuable to have a Bitcoin dev meeting elsewhere.
834 2013-12-02 05:26:42 kinjo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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836 2013-12-02 05:27:16 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, alright modified to fail on short writes
837 2013-12-02 05:27:50 <rescrv> gmaxwell: I'm leaning more heavily on memory corruption, meaning something writing where it shouldn't. The crash he posted is most likely the result of reading from an invalid pointer. The corruption he just posted is the result of something overwriting state used during compaction, causing checksums to fail. The previous corruption bugs, reported by toffoo and reproduced by gavinandresen were
838 2013-12-02 05:27:52 <rescrv> different in that data was simply not making it to disk.
839 2013-12-02 05:28:23 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
840 2013-12-02 05:29:17 <rescrv> gmaxwell: further, toffoo seems to have no issue until he restarts overnight per https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2770#issuecomment-29594370; toffoo: do you leave the process running overnight?
841 2013-12-02 05:29:27 <toffoo> no
842 2013-12-02 05:29:36 <toffoo> i turn off the laptop
843 2013-12-02 05:29:47 <toffoo> today, it was not upon first restart,
844 2013-12-02 05:29:55 <toffoo> it open and ran well for a few hours,
845 2013-12-02 05:29:59 <toffoo> then I closed it,
846 2013-12-02 05:30:10 <toffoo> and upon the next start got the error
847 2013-12-02 05:30:35 <warren> toffoo: coblee has been having nearly the same test results as toffoo, coblee is a veteran engineer and would know if he has any hardware issues.
848 2013-12-02 05:31:34 <toffoo> i'm a former sunOS/solaris/winNT sysadmin
849 2013-12-02 05:31:54 <toffoo> (but never a programmer) :(
850 2013-12-02 05:31:58 <alex_fun> :)
851 2013-12-02 05:32:16 <gmaxwell> rescrv: I'm still skeptical, we hit users with unreliable memory with some regularity. Bitcoin is _very_ sensitive because all the data and processing it does is authenticated. He was reliable on many pre-level-db verions of Bitcoin, and totally unreliable on many post level-db versions, so it seems unlikely that the earlier versions just got lucky memory layouts.
852 2013-12-02 05:32:33 <toffoo> gmaxwell agreed
853 2013-12-02 05:32:38 <gmaxwell> Though memtesting is _always_ prudent, so I agree toffoo should run something like memtest86.
854 2013-12-02 05:32:48 <gmaxwell> (does that work on macs?)
855 2013-12-02 05:32:56 <phantomcircuit> this is probably premature but https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3340
856 2013-12-02 05:33:00 <toffoo> someone posted a mac memtest in the forum thread,
857 2013-12-02 05:33:06 <toffoo> anyone know if it's good?
858 2013-12-02 05:33:24 <toffoo> I discounted the idea when I first read it, but I'll try it now if you think it's a good idea
859 2013-12-02 05:34:15 pooler has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
860 2013-12-02 05:34:22 <toffoo> duh .. that's right, the forum is AWOL
861 2013-12-02 05:34:22 <gmaxwell> even if memory isn't your only problem, if you also have memory corruption that will complicated diagnosis, and testing is pretty easy.
862 2013-12-02 05:34:38 <gmaxwell> toffoo: it's just dns thats stuck flush your dns caching or peg the ip.
863 2013-12-02 05:34:59 <gmaxwell> toffoo: 109.201.133.195
864 2013-12-02 05:35:07 <toffoo> agh thanks
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870 2013-12-02 05:40:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that is a pretty hilarious attack vector
871 2013-12-02 05:41:07 <phantomcircuit> afaict none of the dns registrars are secure at all
872 2013-12-02 05:41:22 <toffoo> Memtest version 4.22 in progress...
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877 2013-12-02 05:43:23 <rescrv> gmaxwell toffoo warren: let's assume no hardware issues: The file that's corrupt in toffoo's latest chainstate is 010255.sst. That file was generated by compaction, merging other files to create it. Those other files were not corrupt; otherwise, the compaction would have failed and not written the file. It follows then, that it corrupted during that rewrite process. Is there any easy way to discern
878 2013-12-02 05:43:25 <rescrv> what the value stored in the chainstate should be? As in, if I copy someone's valid chain state, should the two be bytewise equal for present keys?
879 2013-12-02 05:45:00 <gmaxwell> rescrv: if you also know what blocknumber his node was at, you can reindex another node and make it stop at that height and you will end up with an identicate chainstate state. (the gettxoutsetinfo rpc will even iterate through the chainstate and return the sha256, and it will agree between nodes)
880 2013-12-02 05:45:22 paybitcoin has joined
881 2013-12-02 05:46:23 <rescrv> gmaxwell: is each key in the chainstate an immutable value?
882 2013-12-02 05:46:46 <toffoo> blocknumber should be in the debug.log I pastebined
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885 2013-12-02 05:48:46 <shesek> I'm getting a lot (in the 1000's) of ORPHAN BLOCK messages after not opening bitcoind for awhile. is that normal?
886 2013-12-02 05:49:19 <shesek> I'm guessing that it isn't :-\
887 2013-12-02 05:49:26 <shesek> what could be causing it?
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890 2013-12-02 05:53:09 <gmaxwell> rescrv: yes, if the key is in there its value will be the same for anyone other system that has the same key. (keys are inserted in removed, but never changed, IIRC)
891 2013-12-02 05:53:19 <gmaxwell> shesek: it's fineish.
892 2013-12-02 05:53:22 patcon has joined
893 2013-12-02 05:53:42 <gmaxwell> shesek: it just means that you got a new block announcement before you'd caught up the forward direction, and now its enumerating backwards to find where it connects.
894 2013-12-02 05:54:28 <gmaxwell> (fine-ish because it sucks but it's not specific to you, its expected behavior, and beyond causing a spike in memory usage and some delays it should be harmless)
895 2013-12-02 05:55:03 <warren> I'm pushing new builds, alternatively rescrv and phantomcircuit's patch. I'm included memory barrier just for the heck of it.
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902 2013-12-02 05:58:14 <shesek> gmaxwell, ah, I see. thanks.
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919 2013-12-02 06:14:57 <shesek> it went all the way back to 2009
920 2013-12-02 06:15:21 <shesek> and I'm still getting about an even mixture of accepted and orphan messages
921 2013-12-02 06:15:41 patch has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
922 2013-12-02 06:16:14 <shesek> oh, wait, no, not even -- mostly accepted, but still lots of orphaned
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929 2013-12-02 06:25:15 <warren> http://download1.rpmfusion.org/~warren/bitcoin-0.8.5-OMG7/macosx/
930 2013-12-02 06:25:30 <warren> Both options of rescrv and phantomcircuit's patch.
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936 2013-12-02 06:28:45 <madthanu> rescrv: stupid suggestion probably, but does compaction verify checksums even if you don't run in paranoid mode?
937 2013-12-02 06:29:18 <madthanu> rescrv: never mind, i get it now
938 2013-12-02 06:32:47 <toffoo> I passed my memtest: http://pastebin.com/Xu52eJr7
939 2013-12-02 06:33:03 Wild0wnes has joined
940 2013-12-02 06:33:40 <toffoo> warren should I do a -reindex with OMG7 or can I copy over a pre-corruption copy of chainstate/ ?
941 2013-12-02 06:34:55 <toffoo> oh and which OMG7 should I try?
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946 2013-12-02 06:42:20 <Burritoh> Someone in #bitcoin is claiming that the client has the ability to receive a signed message from developers, to be displayed to the user, warning them not to transact while the Bitcoin network is under attack.
947 2013-12-02 06:42:26 <Burritoh> Are they right? Is there such an alarm?
948 2013-12-02 06:43:12 <gmaxwell> Burritoh: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alerts
949 2013-12-02 06:43:47 <Burritoh> Aaah..
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954 2013-12-02 06:46:15 <Krellan> If Satoshi ever came back, he could use the alerts system to prove himself, right? Assuming he still had his keys.
955 2013-12-02 06:46:25 vsrinivas has joined
956 2013-12-02 06:46:33 <vsrinivas> currently the 'setgenerate' rpc in bitcoind's source is marked as thread safe. is that really appropriate?;
957 2013-12-02 06:47:26 <gmaxwell> Krellan: no, more than satoshi has the alert key.
958 2013-12-02 06:47:38 sevenqueue has joined
959 2013-12-02 06:47:59 <gmaxwell> Krellan: he could potentially sign with the key in the genesis block, but he might not have it. regardless he has a somewhat well known pgp key.
960 2013-12-02 06:48:09 <vsrinivas> concurrent callers of GenerateBitcoins() might end up trying to delete minerthreads twice, i think.
961 2013-12-02 06:48:24 <Krellan> gmaxwell: Didn't know it was a shared key. OK thanks that makes sense, he could always sign a message to verify an address from one of his early blocks.
962 2013-12-02 06:48:35 <sevenqueue> Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
963 2013-12-02 06:48:47 <gmaxwell> Krellan: the only block we know for sure is his .. is the genesis block.
964 2013-12-02 06:48:54 <Burritoh> gmaxwell: these days, wouldn't the alerts need to start being multilingual?
965 2013-12-02 06:49:07 <Auctus> so a bitcoin transaction has only a to address, and then a transaction id for you to look up what the from address was?
966 2013-12-02 06:49:15 <gmaxwell> Burritoh: we've put URLs in them in the past, and the content of the url was translated.
967 2013-12-02 06:49:21 <Burritoh> I really didn't expect something like an alert system in Bitcoin-Qt :|
968 2013-12-02 06:49:21 <Burritoh> ah
969 2013-12-02 06:49:23 <Auctus> like a previous transaction id i mean
970 2013-12-02 06:49:32 <Burritoh> not that it's a particularly bad thing
971 2013-12-02 06:49:39 <gmaxwell> Auctus: there is no real from address at allâ thats not a "from" it's a prior to, which is subtly different.
972 2013-12-02 06:50:13 <gmaxwell> Burritoh: well it's kinda ugly but too valuable not to have, the potential for harm is minimized as much as we know how
973 2013-12-02 06:50:22 <Auctus> can you explain the difference/where can i read about it? I mean i understand the difference, but in the end it amounts to the same thing?
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975 2013-12-02 06:51:09 <Krellan> gmaxwell: Interesting, I thought Satoshi exclusively mined most of the early blocks, not just the genesis block. No real way to conclusively prove who owns what early coin, unless they revealed themselves voluntarily.
976 2013-12-02 06:51:13 <gmaxwell> vsrinivas: yea that doesn't sound quite right to me, how'd you find that.
977 2013-12-02 06:51:22 <vsrinivas> gmaxwell: source inspection;
978 2013-12-02 06:52:02 <gmaxwell> Krellan: well, it's a reasonable guess, but we don't really know for sure, there was a small gap between the initial timestamps and the post (e.g. he waited to see that it was working) but he could have also announced it to other people privately in that time.
979 2013-12-02 06:52:22 <gmaxwell> so as far as I know there is no way to be sure that block 1 is his, though its likely.
980 2013-12-02 06:52:50 <gmaxwell> there is that nonce correlation stuff, but that may be distinguishing someone else instead of him.
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986 2013-12-02 06:55:59 <Krellan> gmaxwell: Makes sense. The mined coins were not spent until Block 8. Blocks 1-7, each to a unique address, have never been spent (as we know, Block 1 *can't* ever be spent).
987 2013-12-02 06:56:53 <gmaxwell> block 0 can't be spent.
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996 2013-12-02 07:04:37 <vsrinivas> while we're observing things ... DetectShutdownThread in the no-ui code wakes up every 200 mS, just to check a variable; its a minor change, but perhaps StartShutdown() / ShutdownRequested() should rendezvous by something other than a 200 mS sleep and a volatile variable.
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998 2013-12-02 07:07:27 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: IIRC at least on some OSX versions fdatasync() just doesn't exist at all. The normal fallback code on hosts without fdatasync() is fsync() but that doesn't work as expected on OSX.
999 2013-12-02 07:08:18 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, all i know is that it's #define'd as the fnctl
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1001 2013-12-02 07:08:23 <vsrinivas> gmaxwell: the OS X fallback for fdatasync is fcntl F_FULLSYNC usually.
1002 2013-12-02 07:08:49 <gmaxwell> vsrinivas: I mean in most software written preOSX stupidity with fsync.
1003 2013-12-02 07:09:00 <gmaxwell> e.g. what you'd do on AIX or something.
1004 2013-12-02 07:09:34 <gmaxwell> vsrinivas: we use fcntl F_FULLSYNC, of course, but wumpus and phantomcircuit are in the process of trying to convince themselves that it's not needed.
1005 2013-12-02 07:09:57 <vsrinivas> ah ok.
1006 2013-12-02 07:10:09 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, hmm?
1007 2013-12-02 07:10:18 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, no im not
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1010 2013-12-02 07:13:06 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol im pretty sure im the one who told you osx is a liar about fsync
1011 2013-12-02 07:13:53 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you might have told me, but I knew from elsewhere too. (it was some drama on the postgresql list a long time ago IIRC, plus people claiming osx rigs benchmarks etc)
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1017 2013-12-02 07:15:17 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
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1028 2013-12-02 07:19:43 <vsrinivas> should 'setgenerate' really be okay to start mining threads while bitcoind is in safe mode?
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1046 2013-12-02 07:34:32 <warren> toffoo: pre-corruption copy should be fine
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1066 2013-12-02 07:52:03 <rweichler> hey whats the min amount of ram you need to run bitcoind?
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1070 2013-12-02 07:52:33 <rweichler> im running it on a 512MB VPS and it keeps getting killed
1071 2013-12-02 07:52:43 <rweichler> im afraid that it might be too little ram or something
1072 2013-12-02 07:53:51 <diki> rweichler:Sadly, it's indeed a resource hog
1073 2013-12-02 07:53:56 <diki> I am afraid you will need to upgrade.
1074 2013-12-02 07:54:12 <warren> 1GB RAM would be safe for now
1075 2013-12-02 07:54:12 <Krellan> rweichler: My bitcoind is taking 1.4GB resident, 2.9GB virtual, now.
1076 2013-12-02 07:54:18 <warren> whoa
1077 2013-12-02 07:54:26 <warren> it's using like 700MB resident for me with disablewallet=1
1078 2013-12-02 07:54:28 <diki> Not impossible.
1079 2013-12-02 07:54:33 <lianj> maybe do less connection and more swap
1080 2013-12-02 07:54:42 <Krellan> rweichler: Although I'm running 64-bit and I've had it up for a long time so it has around 70 connections or so.
1081 2013-12-02 07:54:55 <gmaxwell> Krellan: what version is that? 1.4 GB resident sounds broken.
1082 2013-12-02 07:54:58 <Krellan> And I have a wallet, and I'm mining.
1083 2013-12-02 07:55:06 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1084 2013-12-02 07:55:17 <Krellan> gmaxwell: It's from github, not THE latest, but pretty close to it.
1085 2013-12-02 07:55:18 <rweichler> warren: safe... for now?
1086 2013-12-02 07:55:24 <rweichler> does it take more RAM the bigger the blockchain is?
1087 2013-12-02 07:55:27 <gmaxwell> Krellan: mine is 424MB resident.
1088 2013-12-02 07:55:35 <gmaxwell> rweichler: no, not meaningfully.
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1092 2013-12-02 07:56:06 <Krellan> gmaxwell: That's nice and small. I wonder if optimization/etc. flags make a difference when compiling?
1093 2013-12-02 07:56:07 <rweichler> ah, okay
1094 2013-12-02 07:56:50 <Krellan> gmaxwell: What's your virtual (not resident) RAM footprint of your bitcoind?
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1096 2013-12-02 07:57:32 <rweichler> i guess i shall turn on swap
1097 2013-12-02 07:57:35 <gmaxwell> Krellan: infinity squared or something like that, on x86_64 leveldb makes extensive use of mmap, so the virtual numbers are high and not very meaningful.
1098 2013-12-02 07:58:08 <Krellan> gmaxwell: I noticed the same thing. Hard to actually know the real usage. There's all sorts of mapped chainstate files around.
1099 2013-12-02 07:58:29 <warren> I'm making no-mmap builds to see if it changes anything.
1100 2013-12-02 07:58:51 <gmaxwell> Krellan: not just that, thread stacks and other stuff inflate virt. really on any multthreaded program virt is useless, doubly so if it uses mmap.
1101 2013-12-02 07:59:22 <gmaxwell> warren: on x86_64 those would still use mmap on the reading side, I believeâ I think phantomcircuit only changed the writer.
1102 2013-12-02 07:59:38 <warren> oh
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1104 2013-12-02 08:01:55 <Krellan> gmaxwell: Thanks, yes there's a lot of threads. I played with "ps" more and now I think it's only 0.7 GB resident 1.4 GB virtual. Sounds better.
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1106 2013-12-02 08:05:51 <Krellan> It should be possible to run bitcoind on a small RAM system, if you're willing to tolerate lots of swapping, and the slowness that results.
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1108 2013-12-02 08:06:59 <Krellan> On the other extreme, a large RAM system, with entire blockchain on RAM disk, fast!
1109 2013-12-02 08:07:00 <warren> wumpus: https://github.com/pstratem/bitcoin/commit/d4c99c02a8fb2f6b50b9fcf86e3398dcbf7cea1c#commitcomment-4743856
1110 2013-12-02 08:07:09 <warren> wumpus: basically this means this patch needs more work to be safe on mac?
1111 2013-12-02 08:07:30 <wumpus> @warren, no, he explained it in a latter post
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1114 2013-12-02 08:07:57 <wumpus> in leveldb, fdatasync *is* defined as fcntl(fileno(fileout), F_FULLFSYNC, 0);
1115 2013-12-02 08:08:12 <warren> ok thanks
1116 2013-12-02 08:08:26 <warren> wumpus: I'm throwing this at testers. if any survive we'll get reports.
1117 2013-12-02 08:08:53 <wumpus> well it's another step in the right direction :)
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1119 2013-12-02 08:09:09 <wumpus> it's crazy that macosx is such a data-eating trap
1120 2013-12-02 08:09:36 <warren> wumpus: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=337294.msg3793820#msg3793820
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1127 2013-12-02 08:19:11 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, no i also commented out the code that selects mmap for reading
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1131 2013-12-02 08:22:19 <warren> phantomcircuit: oh! then i'm very interested in seeing this on linux
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1133 2013-12-02 08:23:01 <warren> horray for last minute changes
1134 2013-12-02 08:26:05 <wumpus> woohoo
1135 2013-12-02 08:26:29 <warren> not like we're responsible for billions of dollars or anything
1136 2013-12-02 08:26:33 <warren> oh wait
1137 2013-12-02 08:26:46 <rweichler> nother question
1138 2013-12-02 08:26:51 Lexa has quit (Quit: Lexa)
1139 2013-12-02 08:26:57 <rweichler> is there a way to be notified, like, immediately when a block is found
1140 2013-12-02 08:27:00 <rweichler> and run some code
1141 2013-12-02 08:27:04 <rweichler> based on that block?
1142 2013-12-02 08:27:09 <rweichler> i cant find anything in the wiki
1143 2013-12-02 08:29:19 <wumpus> rweichler: yes, the -blocknotify option can run any script
1144 2013-12-02 08:29:38 <wumpus> Execute command when the best block changes (%s in cmd is replaced by block hash)
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1146 2013-12-02 08:30:34 <rweichler> sweet!
1147 2013-12-02 08:30:36 <rweichler> thanks :D
1148 2013-12-02 08:30:53 <cfields> wumpus: you run ubuntu, right?
1149 2013-12-02 08:34:08 <wumpus> cfields: yep!
1150 2013-12-02 08:34:18 <wumpus> I can test with 12.04 and 13.10
1151 2013-12-02 08:34:30 <cfields> wumpus: mind doing 1 or 2 quick checks real quick?
1152 2013-12-02 08:34:40 <cfields> not ready to test yet, i can push up tomorrow
1153 2013-12-02 08:35:03 <cfields> just need to verify a few things quickly on an older version
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1155 2013-12-02 08:36:15 <cfields> wumpus: if you don't mind, and happen to have qt4/qt5 installed side-by-side, i'd be interested to know the results of:
1156 2013-12-02 08:36:29 <cfields> ls -l `which moc`
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1158 2013-12-02 08:37:20 <wumpus> ok I have qt4 and qt5 installed on the 13.10, I'll take a look
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1160 2013-12-02 08:37:40 <gmaxwell> saracen: I hate to say it, but I think directory.io might need a "ITS A JOKE" thing.
1161 2013-12-02 08:37:48 <gmaxwell> 00:28 < Olipro> looks like Bitcoin-Qt might be generating "weak" keys
1162 2013-12-02 08:37:48 <gmaxwell> 00:30 < Olipro> gmaxwell: mmm, but they're all within the range & length that I see the Qt client generate
1163 2013-12-02 08:38:29 <cfields> wumpus: ah perfect, i'm dev'ing on 13.04.
1164 2013-12-02 08:39:19 <cfields> wumpus: main thing i'm trying to figure out is how the distros manage the qt4/qt5 split as far as locating qt build-side tools. Seems everyone does it differently of course.
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1166 2013-12-02 08:40:29 <cfields> I believe I have ubuntu/fedora worked out. Trying to cover as many bases as possible initially
1167 2013-12-02 08:42:31 <throughnothing> I'm trying to wrap my head around bip32, and don't understand the reason/differenc for public and private child key derivation, can anyone explain this?
1168 2013-12-02 08:42:40 <wumpus> qt4: lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 35 okt 13 15:18 /usr/bin/moc-qt4 -> ../lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/qt4/bin/moc
1169 2013-12-02 08:42:53 <wumpus> general: lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 aug 7 16:46 /usr/bin/moc -> qtchooser
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1171 2013-12-02 08:43:18 <gmaxwell> throughnothing: public derivation has a non-intutive vulnerability that private does not have.
1172 2013-12-02 08:43:26 <cfields> wumpus: perfect. that's 13.10?
1173 2013-12-02 08:43:28 <wumpus> I don't see one for qt5 specifically, but the general one seems to choose qt5
1174 2013-12-02 08:43:34 <wumpus> yes
1175 2013-12-02 08:43:48 <gmaxwell> throughnothing: if you give someone one private key, and the extended public key then they can derrive all the private keys.
1176 2013-12-02 08:43:51 <cfields> ok. could you verify that you can force qt4? sec.
1177 2013-12-02 08:43:58 <gmaxwell> throughnothing: the private derrivation doesn't have this property.
1178 2013-12-02 08:44:13 <wumpus> force qt4? well I can build the current bitcoin-qt which forces qt4 :p
1179 2013-12-02 08:44:21 <throughnothing> gmaxwell: hmm ok. So does that equate toâ¦don't use public derivations?
1180 2013-12-02 08:44:22 <cfields> QT_SELECT=qt4 moc -v
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1182 2013-12-02 08:44:33 <cfields> QT_SELECT=qt5 moc -v
1183 2013-12-02 08:44:41 <wumpus> ok will test
1184 2013-12-02 08:44:43 <cfields> should do the obvious things.
1185 2013-12-02 08:44:54 <throughnothing> gmaxwell: and i was confused b/c public/private has a different meaning when talking about public/private keys (or so it seems), so public/private derivations is confusing when each derivation type has an associated public/private keypair
1186 2013-12-02 08:44:58 <throughnothing> or am I misunderstanding that
1187 2013-12-02 08:45:08 <gmaxwell> throughnothing: no, they're insanely useful. And there is no alternative to their usefulness. They allow greately improved security for some applications.
1188 2013-12-02 08:45:08 <wumpus> Qt Meta Object Compiler version 63 (Qt 4.8.4)
1189 2013-12-02 08:45:14 <wumpus> Qt Meta Object Compiler version 67 (Qt 5.0.2)
1190 2013-12-02 08:45:19 <wumpus> respectively... so yeah it works!
1191 2013-12-02 08:45:31 <cfields> wumpus: great. So they haven't screwed it up yet, at least :)
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1193 2013-12-02 08:45:48 <cfields> wumpus: thanks a bunch. I'll have you something to try tomorrow.
1194 2013-12-02 08:45:53 <gmaxwell> throughnothing: its not a seperate meaning, the private derrivation can only be done using private key material. The public derrivation can be done using (semi-)public data.
1195 2013-12-02 08:45:57 <wumpus> cfields: great!
1196 2013-12-02 08:46:33 <throughnothing> gmaxwell: as i understand the bip32 spec, the first half of child nodes use public derivation, and the second half (of the 32-bit space) uses private
1197 2013-12-02 08:46:40 <throughnothing> is this b/c of the mathematics, or just arbitrary choice by the spec
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1200 2013-12-02 08:48:03 <gmaxwell> throughnothing: it just allows the single index to signal which is being used, it's an arbitrary choice.
1201 2013-12-02 08:48:55 <throughnothing> hmm ok
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1203 2013-12-02 08:49:50 <throughnothing> If I have my master key, and I derive m/0
1204 2013-12-02 08:50:06 <throughnothing> that node will have a public and private keypair, and thus a usable address
1205 2013-12-02 08:50:07 <throughnothing> right?
1206 2013-12-02 08:50:19 <throughnothing> and that would be in the 'public' derivation space for the master node
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1214 2013-12-02 08:58:02 <throughnothing> oops
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1225 2013-12-02 09:13:55 <throughnothing> gmaxwell: ah, I think i see the difference, if you have a 'public derivation' keypair, you can generate sub-public keys, but not sub-private keys
1226 2013-12-02 09:14:07 <throughnothing> with a private derived key, you must have the private key to even derive sub-public keys
1227 2013-12-02 09:14:10 <throughnothing> is that corerct
1228 2013-12-02 09:14:11 <throughnothing> ?
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1243 2013-12-02 09:27:29 <gmaxwell> throughnothing: thats correct.
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1255 2013-12-02 09:40:49 <throughnothing> gmaxwell: perfect, thanks
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1285 2013-12-02 10:30:35 <warren> toffoo: it's crashing in the same function, just called elsewhere =(
1286 2013-12-02 10:30:40 <warren> fucking mac
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1288 2013-12-02 10:31:18 <ThomasV> !seen porubcan
1289 2013-12-02 10:31:18 <gribble> I have not seen porubcan.
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1299 2013-12-02 10:49:56 <warren> gmaxwell: wumpus: rescrv: phantomcircuit: no-mmap reduced my VIRT by ~20%, RES unaffected as expected.
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1301 2013-12-02 10:51:50 <wumpus> warren: nice
1302 2013-12-02 10:52:00 <warren> how does this benefit us?
1303 2013-12-02 10:52:06 <wumpus> that should help the 32 bit people
1304 2013-12-02 10:52:10 <wumpus> :P
1305 2013-12-02 10:52:13 <warren> by only a little
1306 2013-12-02 10:52:33 <warren> a few more months of breathing room?
1307 2013-12-02 10:52:35 <wumpus> 20% is pretty significant
1308 2013-12-02 10:53:04 <warren> wumpus: well, this was litecoin, didn't test bitcoin with no-mmap yet
1309 2013-12-02 10:53:39 <wumpus> especially for a by-effect of a patch that wasn't even intended for that
1310 2013-12-02 10:54:04 <warren> if it has no regressions, then great
1311 2013-12-02 10:54:20 <warren> it's kind of a scary change to make at the last minute that fixes no bug on linux/win32
1312 2013-12-02 10:55:50 <rweichler> is there any repo with a prebuilt bitcoind with -regtest?
1313 2013-12-02 10:56:05 <wumpus> well as over-use of virtual memory is causing crashes, reducing the amount of mmaps could be seen as a bug fix at least on 32 bit
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1316 2013-12-02 10:57:33 <TD> rweichler: no, but i can send you an amd64 linux binary if you like
1317 2013-12-02 10:57:35 <warren> wumpus: 32bit that we're trying to kill... except for those ARM people
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1319 2013-12-02 10:57:49 <wumpus> no, 'we' are not trying to kill 32 bit
1320 2013-12-02 10:58:08 <TD> rweichler: any recent git master build has it
1321 2013-12-02 10:58:31 <rweichler> TD: i got it off of the ppa one
1322 2013-12-02 10:58:31 <wumpus> it's just acceptance at that it may no longer be possible to sync the block chain with 32-bit, but there is no reason why we would like it to be that way
1323 2013-12-02 10:58:45 <rweichler> i have 0.8.5
1324 2013-12-02 10:58:51 <rweichler> but when i do bitcoind --help it doesnt have regtest listed
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1327 2013-12-02 10:59:51 <wumpus> increasing the minimum spec for nodes is never a good thing, especially if it could be avoided (but we're not sure of that ...)
1328 2013-12-02 10:59:55 <TD> that's because it's not in the 0.x series. you need a git master build
1329 2013-12-02 11:00:32 <rweichler> gah. :(
1330 2013-12-02 11:00:45 <rweichler> can you send me your build, then TD?
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1334 2013-12-02 11:03:26 <warren> wumpus: have someone else give you the chainstate ...
1335 2013-12-02 11:03:31 <TD> yes. you will need boost and openssl already installed though
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1338 2013-12-02 11:05:10 <TD> rweichler: http://plan99.net/~mike/bitcoind-stripped.gz
1339 2013-12-02 11:05:19 <TD> i forgot when i built that. it's some snapshot from a week or so ago i think
1340 2013-12-02 11:05:33 <TD> from nov 26th
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1356 2013-12-02 11:27:41 <rweichler> gah. it wont run on my machine. thanks anyway though
1357 2013-12-02 11:28:03 <rweichler> i managed to build my own though so yay :D
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1361 2013-12-02 11:33:53 <TD> cool
1362 2013-12-02 11:33:59 <TD> what error did you get? missing shared libs or .. ?
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1366 2013-12-02 11:37:09 <rweichler> no i was stupid and i thought i had amd
1367 2013-12-02 11:37:13 <rweichler> i actually have intel lol
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1384 2013-12-02 11:59:32 <diki> what would be the most memory efficient way for me to export the utxos with my blockchain parser?
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1408 2013-12-02 12:01:30 <diki> by memory efficient I am talking about checking each output whether it was spent, but there being many would exceed the available ram in my system
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1433 2013-12-02 12:09:01 <diki> What about storing in a block of memory some outputs and then iterating over the blockchain checking if they were spent?
1434 2013-12-02 12:09:12 <diki> then doing so as many times as needed for the rest of the outputs.
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1446 2013-12-02 12:34:47 <W0rmDr1nk> so http://directory.io/ is a hoax right ?
1447 2013-12-02 12:35:13 <kinlo> no, it's not a hoax
1448 2013-12-02 12:35:29 <kinlo> but it's the same as http://pastebin.com/2qbRKh3R
1449 2013-12-02 12:35:37 <kinlo> that site is equally relevant and correct
1450 2013-12-02 12:35:38 Lifeofcray1 has joined
1451 2013-12-02 12:35:45 <kinlo> that page *does* contain all pin codes
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1453 2013-12-02 12:36:39 <Belxjander> pin codes for what ?
1454 2013-12-02 12:36:47 <W0rmDr1nk> well the difference is the pins doesnt have matching credit cards
1455 2013-12-02 12:36:56 <W0rmDr1nk> the directory.io has matching addresses
1456 2013-12-02 12:37:11 <kinlo> W0rmDr1nk: true, but the main thing you need to read on that page is the first line
1457 2013-12-02 12:37:27 <W0rmDr1nk> kinlo, ok
1458 2013-12-02 12:37:36 <kinlo> Imagine you can read 1 million pages of that site per second
1459 2013-12-02 12:37:42 <kinlo> which you can't
1460 2013-12-02 12:37:46 <sipa> if you're able to guess which page someone's address is on, yes, you'll get the private key
1461 2013-12-02 12:38:00 <sipa> but that isn't easier than just guessing what the private key is in the first place
1462 2013-12-02 12:38:01 <kinlo> take a calculator and calculate how long it will take to scan all pages
1463 2013-12-02 12:38:20 <W0rmDr1nk> sipa, if someone has your private key though - can they spend your BTC ?
1464 2013-12-02 12:38:26 <kinlo> W0rmDr1nk: yes
1465 2013-12-02 12:38:27 <sipa> W0rmDr1nk: yes
1466 2013-12-02 12:39:01 <Belxjander> is directory.io attempting to post-generate private keys to match all the public keys and addresses used on the bitcoin blockchain?
1467 2013-12-02 12:39:11 <sipa> no
1468 2013-12-02 12:39:22 <sipa> it has nothing to do with the blockchain even
1469 2013-12-02 12:39:30 <sipa> it just lists all private keys :)
1470 2013-12-02 12:39:35 <kinlo> it's just a clever generator. they didn't pre-generated all thos pages
1471 2013-12-02 12:39:42 <kinlo> they just generate the pages on the fly
1472 2013-12-02 12:39:59 <W0rmDr1nk> kinjo, or they try atleast
1473 2013-12-02 12:40:05 <W0rmDr1nk> http://directory.io/222222 not loading
1474 2013-12-02 12:40:09 <sipa> refresh
1475 2013-12-02 12:40:57 sserrano44 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1476 2013-12-02 12:41:59 <W0rmDr1nk> has anybody been lucky enough to find an adress with money in there ?
1477 2013-12-02 12:42:50 <andytoshi> W0rmDr1nk: this has happened to people using weak brainwallets
1478 2013-12-02 12:43:01 btcbtc has quit (Quit: btcbtc)
1479 2013-12-02 12:43:08 <andytoshi> and there was also an incident where an android client had a bad RNG
1480 2013-12-02 12:43:09 <goedgoed> What andytoshi said.
1481 2013-12-02 12:43:36 <andytoshi> but never to someone using a plain old random address they got from their PC
1482 2013-12-02 12:43:55 <goedgoed> The guy/guys that "invented" and promoted brain wallets presumably wanted an easier way to steal BTC.
1483 2013-12-02 12:43:56 sserrano44 has joined
1484 2013-12-02 12:44:06 <shesek> andytoshi, I'm pretty sure there are a few malwares around that looks for locally stored private keys
1485 2013-12-02 12:44:06 Guest40446 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1486 2013-12-02 12:44:35 <goedgoed> shesek: Definitely.
1487 2013-12-02 12:44:46 Guest40446 has joined
1488 2013-12-02 12:44:54 ericmuyser has joined
1489 2013-12-02 12:45:05 <rweichler> okay so i did 2 bitcoind -regtest's
1490 2013-12-02 12:45:10 <rweichler> one connects to the other
1491 2013-12-02 12:45:25 <rweichler> and on one of them i did a setgenerate true
1492 2013-12-02 12:45:32 <rweichler> and when i do getbalance "" it returns 50
1493 2013-12-02 12:45:40 <rweichler> but when i just do getbalance with nothing after it returns 0
1494 2013-12-02 12:45:43 stalled has joined
1495 2013-12-02 12:46:08 <rweichler> and when i try to sendfrom "" ADDRESS 5 it says error: {"code":-4,"message":"Insufficient funds"}
1496 2013-12-02 12:46:34 <rweichler> is my bitcoind messed up? or am i doing something wrong
1497 2013-12-02 12:47:34 <kjj> if your 50 is from generated coins, you can't spend them for a while
1498 2013-12-02 12:48:11 <kjj> getbalance gives the spendable balance, while getbalance "" gives the balance for the default account
1499 2013-12-02 12:48:21 <rweichler> how do i make it spendable?
1500 2013-12-02 12:48:34 <kjj> wait for 120 blocks
1501 2013-12-02 12:48:47 <rweichler> oh... shit.
1502 2013-12-02 12:48:50 <rweichler> okay
1503 2013-12-02 12:48:54 <rweichler> thanks
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1518 2013-12-02 13:00:46 <TD> kjj: rweichler is using regtest mode. there is no need to wait for blocks
1519 2013-12-02 13:01:17 <TD> rweichler: if you built from master today, try ./bitcoind -regtest setgenerate true 150
1520 2013-12-02 13:01:19 <TD> and see what happens
1521 2013-12-02 13:02:04 W0rmDr1nk has joined
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1527 2013-12-02 13:13:29 <skinnkavaj> Does anyone know how where to find bitcoin dollar price in json?
1528 2013-12-02 13:14:05 <goedgoed> W-M: Brief gelezen?
1529 2013-12-02 13:14:14 <goedgoed> Oops. Wrong channel.
1530 2013-12-02 13:15:47 <sipa> skinnkavaj: define "bitcoin dollar price" ?
1531 2013-12-02 13:24:52 <diki> sipa:How many private keys are there in that site?
1532 2013-12-02 13:25:07 <diki> Who owns it? It must take a lot of space to store that many keys
1533 2013-12-02 13:25:50 <sipa> ...
1534 2013-12-02 13:26:07 <sipa> if you think they can be stored *at all*, you need a lesson about big numbers
1535 2013-12-02 13:26:20 <diki> Well I assumed they were
1536 2013-12-02 13:26:23 <kinlo> diki: they are generated on the fly
1537 2013-12-02 13:26:37 <kinlo> diki: they cannot be stored on disk
1538 2013-12-02 13:26:44 <kinlo> even if they would have enough diskspace
1539 2013-12-02 13:26:46 <diki> yes I get that
1540 2013-12-02 13:26:47 <sipa> it requires a huge multiple of the number of atoms in the universe to store them or so
1541 2013-12-02 13:27:04 <diki> Who owns it?
1542 2013-12-02 13:27:05 <kinlo> it would take more time to generate them then the time bitcoin exists
1543 2013-12-02 13:27:06 serialbandicoot has joined
1544 2013-12-02 13:27:17 <sipa> better say more than the age of the universe
1545 2013-12-02 13:27:27 <kinlo> yeah :)
1546 2013-12-02 13:27:56 <diki> Oh, I am pretty sure that we have yet to discover everything there is about the universe
1547 2013-12-02 13:28:05 <diki> who knows what other computing methods there are
1548 2013-12-02 13:28:16 <diki> but no doubt it will take millenia to figure out, if ever
1549 2013-12-02 13:28:34 <kinlo> diki: sure, but I am technically capable of making something like directory.io that generates on the fly
1550 2013-12-02 13:28:49 <diki> I see though
1551 2013-12-02 13:28:56 <kinlo> to create something that have all data stored, it would require some kind of invention of supercomputer, and an invention of superstorage
1552 2013-12-02 13:29:14 agnostic98 has joined
1553 2013-12-02 13:29:16 <diki> Picked a random private key
1554 2013-12-02 13:29:17 <kinlo> I don't see myself inventing such things :)
1555 2013-12-02 13:29:37 <diki> and on each page increase by 124*page?
1556 2013-12-02 13:29:57 Muis_ has joined
1557 2013-12-02 13:30:22 <sipa> there are 128 keys on each page
1558 2013-12-02 13:30:51 <diki> hmm yeah, my ctrl+f on the page didnt work the previous time, yes 128
1559 2013-12-02 13:31:30 <diki> very pointless "database" though
1560 2013-12-02 13:31:49 <sipa> it's ironic
1561 2013-12-02 13:31:59 <sipa> it was designed to show how pointless searching for keys is
1562 2013-12-02 13:32:13 <sipa> and it's exactly what some people fear it simplifies...
1563 2013-12-02 13:32:59 Muis has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1564 2013-12-02 13:33:12 <diki> still I got to hand it to the person who made it
1565 2013-12-02 13:33:35 <sipa> saracen
1566 2013-12-02 13:33:41 <diki> for a moment I believed he actually generated and stored that many keys, even though the best I can do is 57 trillion in a month
1567 2013-12-02 13:33:52 <diki> and the amount of space needed...
1568 2013-12-02 13:34:04 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1569 2013-12-02 13:34:40 <kinlo> they did manage to troll on a major scale :)
1570 2013-12-02 13:34:55 <diki> yup, I admit I was trolled
1571 2013-12-02 13:35:02 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1572 2013-12-02 13:35:22 JontyB has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1573 2013-12-02 13:37:01 <diki> heh
1574 2013-12-02 13:37:04 <diki> this is a bit funny
1575 2013-12-02 13:37:21 <diki> page http://directory.io/4625697166532776 has an address that starts with 1Az1
1576 2013-12-02 13:37:44 rdymac has joined
1577 2013-12-02 13:38:00 <diki> and satoshi's address is 1A1z
1578 2013-12-02 13:41:41 Muis_ is now known as Muis
1579 2013-12-02 13:42:09 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1580 2013-12-02 13:44:17 xiangfu has joined
1581 2013-12-02 13:45:35 <Luke-Jr> â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦
1582 2013-12-02 13:45:54 <jaakkos> i wonder what the chance is that bitcoin remains adequately protected when the generation fades out
1583 2013-12-02 13:46:15 <jaakkos> or even know... it would probably take a few million bucks from a government to mass produce asics?
1584 2013-12-02 13:47:22 sp4ke has joined
1585 2013-12-02 13:47:30 <jaakkos> well, if the network sees enough transactions to give fees to miners, it would suffice
1586 2013-12-02 13:47:43 <jaakkos> but it would need to be really popular i guess
1587 2013-12-02 13:48:34 dataangel has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1591 2013-12-02 13:49:31 <goedgoed> jaakkos: How about a (non-profit) organization for the promotion of a secure mining ecosystem?
1592 2013-12-02 13:50:37 <goedgoed> Miners could also pledge to exclude some mining company if it gets to big a piece of the pie. I'm not sure if that's technically feasible though.
1593 2013-12-02 13:51:04 andytoshi has joined
1594 2013-12-02 13:51:19 Musk has joined
1595 2013-12-02 13:55:09 <jaakkos> it should be possible to detect where a big hashrate is coming from, at least if you trust some of the peers in the mining pool group. i think.
1596 2013-12-02 13:56:06 wei__ has joined
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1600 2013-12-02 14:03:36 <hno> jaakkos, if transaction fees are handled within bitcoin then it should work out reasonably. But there is a danger that some large operators with significant share of both mining and trasnactions shortciruits the system moving transaction fees agreements outside bitcoin.
1601 2013-12-02 14:04:58 qbase has joined
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1603 2013-12-02 14:06:50 <diki> sipa:So basically, in order to find out if an output is spent, I just search if the output was used as an input to something?
1604 2013-12-02 14:10:30 <sipa> yes
1605 2013-12-02 14:12:04 <diki> Since I can't store all the outputs and inputs in memory, what way do you recommend me for checking each output of the blockchain if it was spent?
1606 2013-12-02 14:12:19 <sipa> keep a set of all unspent outputs
1607 2013-12-02 14:12:26 <sipa> add new ones when you see an output
1608 2013-12-02 14:12:31 <sipa> remove one when you see an input
1609 2013-12-02 14:12:34 <sipa> that's what bitcoind does
1610 2013-12-02 14:13:14 <diki> well in order to figure out if an output is unspent I'd have to check them all
1611 2013-12-02 14:13:21 <diki> unless I am missing something?
1612 2013-12-02 14:13:21 <sipa> duh :)
1613 2013-12-02 14:13:32 <kjj> anyone know what's going on with the website? the new login page looks scammy
1614 2013-12-02 14:13:43 <sipa> which website?
1615 2013-12-02 14:13:49 <kjj> er, the forums on bitcointalk.org
1616 2013-12-02 14:13:57 <diki> looks fine to me
1617 2013-12-02 14:14:04 <diki> I verified the fingerprint
1618 2013-12-02 14:14:36 <kjj> you don't see a big red notice telling you to go to some other IP address?
1619 2013-12-02 14:14:46 <diki> It's not telling you to go there
1620 2013-12-02 14:14:51 <jgarzik> mornin'
1621 2013-12-02 14:14:54 <diki> it's telling you to verify that you ARE there.
1622 2013-12-02 14:15:04 <JyZyXEL> do 0-fee transactions just stay forever in the network?
1623 2013-12-02 14:15:11 <diki> kjj:Bitcointalk was compromised..again..
1624 2013-12-02 14:15:17 <diki> the DNS to be exact or something
1625 2013-12-02 14:15:25 <diki> there was a man in the middle attack
1626 2013-12-02 14:18:19 <JyZyXEL> according to blockchain.info the oldest tx waiting for a confirmation is currently from 30th of November, 2013
1627 2013-12-02 14:18:20 <kjj> JyZyXEL: sorta, not really
1628 2013-12-02 14:18:44 <JyZyXEL> so, around 3 days
1629 2013-12-02 14:18:55 <kjj> nodes eventually stop relaying transactions. your personal node should keep transmitting it until it makes it into a block
1630 2013-12-02 14:19:26 <kjj> and blockchain.info is NOT the network. it shows you a view into their node, not all nodes
1631 2013-12-02 14:19:51 <JyZyXEL> kjj: what about the receiver node, will he keep rebroadcasting it aswell?
1632 2013-12-02 14:20:12 <kjj> no, they stop after a while
1633 2013-12-02 14:20:21 <kjj> that's why the origin node needs to keep sending
1634 2013-12-02 14:20:30 <JyZyXEL> i didn't mean for the stupid tx to get out in the network in the first place
1635 2013-12-02 14:21:14 <kjj> ok, each node will retransmit transactions it knows about. but after a while, if a transaction does not belong to the local node, that node will forget about it and stop transmitting it
1636 2013-12-02 14:21:27 <JyZyXEL> i made sure my receiver node was not connected to the network when i injected the tx into it, but when i shut the node down and restarted it with the connection to the network, it sent the tx to them
1637 2013-12-02 14:21:40 <sipa> kjj: both receiver and sender keep broadcasting until it is confirmed
1638 2013-12-02 14:21:46 <sipa> imho, it should even be only the receiver
1639 2013-12-02 14:22:11 <kjj> oh, ok. you mean receiver as in the node that will be able to spend it
1640 2013-12-02 14:22:15 <sipa> yes
1641 2013-12-02 14:22:29 <JyZyXEL> yeah i wouldn't be surprised if that node wanted to keep rebroadcasting it
1642 2013-12-02 14:22:41 <kjj> right, because both nodes will include it in their personal wallet
1643 2013-12-02 14:22:47 <sipa> the receiver is the only one who cares about the transaction confirming :)
1644 2013-12-02 14:22:47 <diki> well two things will happen
1645 2013-12-02 14:22:59 <sipa> the sender cares about the receiver accepting it, not the network accepting it
1646 2013-12-02 14:23:05 <diki> but in both cases, you dont lose coins
1647 2013-12-02 14:23:36 <diki> well, they dont get lost is what I mean
1648 2013-12-02 14:23:54 <JyZyXEL> you do if you were unlucky enough to use a newly generated change address
1649 2013-12-02 14:24:11 <JyZyXEL> you can never spend your change because it will never get confirmed
1650 2013-12-02 14:24:41 <diki> You can remove the tx with pywallet if it does not get confirmed
1651 2013-12-02 14:25:01 Gabralkhan has joined
1652 2013-12-02 14:25:02 <JyZyXEL> both the receiver and the sender have to agree to remove the tx from their wallets
1653 2013-12-02 14:25:16 kinjo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1654 2013-12-02 14:25:16 <diki> I am not aware of such a requirement
1655 2013-12-02 14:25:33 <JyZyXEL> well they do because otherwise the same tx will be rebroadcasted to the network over and over again
1656 2013-12-02 14:25:43 kinjo has joined
1657 2013-12-02 14:25:46 <diki> after a while nodes forget about the tx
1658 2013-12-02 14:25:59 agricocb has joined
1659 2013-12-02 14:26:03 <JyZyXEL> doubt that if the tx is something that adds coins to their wallet?
1660 2013-12-02 14:26:23 <JyZyXEL> why would you wanna forget about incoming money
1661 2013-12-02 14:26:36 <diki> even if they forget about it
1662 2013-12-02 14:26:47 <diki> if it gets confirmed the client should pick it up again, no?
1663 2013-12-02 14:26:59 <sipa> if only one of both parties removes it from their wallet, and the other rebroadcasts it, if it gets relayed or confirmed, it will be added again
1664 2013-12-02 14:27:14 <JyZyXEL> sure
1665 2013-12-02 14:27:23 <JyZyXEL> but of course these days it will not get confirmed
1666 2013-12-02 14:27:37 <diki> I've noticed the opposite
1667 2013-12-02 14:27:42 <diki> some pools do mine 0 fee txes
1668 2013-12-02 14:27:50 <diki> small ones
1669 2013-12-02 14:28:09 <JyZyXEL> so if the sender and the receiver both decide to forget the tx, then other nodes will forget about it too
1670 2013-12-02 14:28:59 <sipa> maybe
1671 2013-12-02 14:29:06 <sipa> it can still be in a miner's mempool and be mined
1672 2013-12-02 14:29:08 agnostic98 has joined
1673 2013-12-02 14:29:38 <diki> sipa:What if a double spend is attempted with a higher fee?
1674 2013-12-02 14:29:47 <sipa> the one that gets mined wins
1675 2013-12-02 14:29:50 <JyZyXEL> sure, but in some amount of time, 0-fee txes in a block are gonna be something that never happens :p
1676 2013-12-02 14:29:53 <sipa> which one that is... hard to say
1677 2013-12-02 14:30:13 <diki> JyZyXEL:If the priority is higher than 57 million
1678 2013-12-02 14:30:21 <diki> or whatever miners set their min limit at
1679 2013-12-02 14:30:26 <diki> it will get mined without a fee
1680 2013-12-02 14:31:37 <diki> Couple of months back there was a guy sending 300 btc back and forth on every confirmation without a fee
1681 2013-12-02 14:31:43 <diki> and it was getting confirmed
1682 2013-12-02 14:32:49 <JyZyXEL> as bitcoin grows that is gonna be getting increasingly hard
1683 2013-12-02 14:33:35 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1684 2013-12-02 14:34:17 <JyZyXEL> imagine if you did a tx where you sent 0.1BTC to someone from a address that has 300BTC, and used some other address for the change other than what the input is
1685 2013-12-02 14:34:24 <JyZyXEL> and you did that tx with 0-fee
1686 2013-12-02 14:34:55 <JyZyXEL> then the receiver of those 0.1BTC could keep rebroadcasting that tx forever and you would never have access to your coins again
1687 2013-12-02 14:35:32 <diki> What about double spending with a higher fee?
1688 2013-12-02 14:35:44 nsh- has joined
1689 2013-12-02 14:35:52 <JyZyXEL> yeah that would be needed
1690 2013-12-02 14:35:56 daybyter has joined
1691 2013-12-02 14:36:20 <diki> JyZyXEL:About the example above...
1692 2013-12-02 14:36:27 <diki> isn
1693 2013-12-02 14:36:31 <diki> isn't that how bitcoin works?
1694 2013-12-02 14:36:32 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1695 2013-12-02 14:36:44 <diki> It generates a fresh address as the change address
1696 2013-12-02 14:36:58 <diki> not reusing any old ones, or even the ones used as input
1697 2013-12-02 14:37:03 <JyZyXEL> im not sure if that is the default behaviour?
1698 2013-12-02 14:37:15 djcoin has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
1699 2013-12-02 14:37:16 <JyZyXEL> i know in electrum you can choose to turn it on or off
1700 2013-12-02 14:37:29 <diki> I know blockchain.info has address re-use.
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1704 2013-12-02 14:38:04 <JyZyXEL> if you choose to take the change back to the input address then there would probably be no problem in spending the change
1705 2013-12-02 14:38:16 <sipa> addresses have nothing to do with it
1706 2013-12-02 14:38:29 <sipa> bitcoin doesn't work in terms of balances or accounts or addresses
1707 2013-12-02 14:38:40 <sipa> every transaction output is separate
1708 2013-12-02 14:38:55 <diki> Yes, I understand that.
1709 2013-12-02 14:39:01 <diki> But I guess it's easier to refer it like that.
1710 2013-12-02 14:39:02 <sipa> bitcoind always uses a new address for change
1711 2013-12-02 14:39:06 <diki> ^
1712 2013-12-02 14:39:07 v3ry3l33te has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1713 2013-12-02 14:39:16 <sipa> and it allows you to spend change immediately
1714 2013-12-02 14:39:21 <sipa> even if unconfirmed
1715 2013-12-02 14:39:37 <sipa> as it assumes its own transactions are always valid and will confirm eventually (a flawed assumption)
1716 2013-12-02 14:39:49 <JyZyXEL> then you can have child-pays-for-parent
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1718 2013-12-02 14:40:55 <JyZyXEL> hopefully that will become more common so you cannot F yourself so bad with a 0-fee mistake
1719 2013-12-02 14:41:18 <diki> I have never sent a 0 fee tx before
1720 2013-12-02 14:41:30 <diki> I've always paid fees
1721 2013-12-02 14:41:37 <diki> and have even paid many times over the size per kb
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1727 2013-12-02 14:48:10 <JyZyXEL> diki: it doesn't feel so great when you have to make many small txs to do local testing of your bitcoin payment module
1728 2013-12-02 14:50:23 <stonecoldpat> why not use testnet or something to test the payment moduke?
1729 2013-12-02 14:50:35 <JyZyXEL> i don't have any testnet coins
1730 2013-12-02 14:50:45 goedgoed has left ()
1731 2013-12-02 14:50:49 <diki> isnt the testnet diff low?
1732 2013-12-02 14:50:49 <sipa> http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
1733 2013-12-02 14:50:55 <diki> you could have mined or used the faucet ^
1734 2013-12-02 14:51:17 <diki> or even testnet in a box
1735 2013-12-02 14:51:47 <diki> Wasn't there someone in the past who lost a couple of hundred or thousand btc because he didn't use testnet?
1736 2013-12-02 14:52:11 <JyZyXEL> good point
1737 2013-12-02 14:52:20 <JyZyXEL> better do all the testing in the testnet
1738 2013-12-02 14:52:35 <JyZyXEL> or on your own blockchain
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1748 2013-12-02 14:57:36 <diki> JyZyXEL:Curious. What service are you going to provide?
1749 2013-12-02 14:57:44 rdymac has joined
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1751 2013-12-02 14:58:11 <JyZyXEL> diki: im working on the OSC bitcoin payment module
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1755 2013-12-02 14:58:20 <diki> OSC?
1756 2013-12-02 14:58:31 <JyZyXEL> oscommerce
1757 2013-12-02 14:58:40 <diki> I see.
1758 2013-12-02 14:59:13 <diki> Accepting 0 conf txes?
1759 2013-12-02 14:59:23 <JyZyXEL> for testing anyways
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1848 2013-12-02 16:35:33 <MagicFab_> MagicalTux, I am working on the https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Securing_your_wallet content
1849 2013-12-02 16:35:42 <MagicFab_> aiming at simplifying it.
1850 2013-12-02 16:36:40 <MagicFab_> Anyone is welcome to join:
1851 2013-12-02 16:36:41 <MagicFab_> http://lite3.framapad.org/p/YJPDsNPaPr
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1881 2013-12-02 17:10:23 <Musk> back
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1894 2013-12-02 17:35:49 <Lifeofcray> is there anything wrong on this php code?
1895 2013-12-02 17:35:52 <Lifeofcray> $wallet=$bitcoin->getnewaddress();
1896 2013-12-02 17:36:12 <kjj> no try/catch block?
1897 2013-12-02 17:36:21 <Lifeofcray> because print_f($bitcoin->getnewaddress();) gives me the adress
1898 2013-12-02 17:36:25 <Lifeofcray> a adress
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1902 2013-12-02 17:46:37 <andytoshi> i don't understand why you would have a variable named 'wallet' which has an address in it
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1905 2013-12-02 17:48:53 <Luke-Jr> I'm with andytoshi
1906 2013-12-02 17:49:02 <Luke-Jr> it almost sounds like you're confusing addresses for wallets
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1911 2013-12-02 17:56:45 <kjj> he's using the RPC client. $wallet is an instance of the RPC connection. $wallet->getnewaddress() calls the getnewaddress command with no arguments and return a new address
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1932 2013-12-02 18:18:30 <t7> wtf to install love on my ubuntu i have to uninstall vlc
1933 2013-12-02 18:18:33 <t7> dag nammit
1934 2013-12-02 18:18:37 <t7> wrong channel
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1937 2013-12-02 18:25:30 <danneu> it's almost like 'wallet' is the most overloaded term in bitcoin
1938 2013-12-02 18:25:45 <danneu> and it should be expunged
1939 2013-12-02 18:26:16 <danneu> rename wallet.dat to secrets.dat
1940 2013-12-02 18:26:55 <gmaxwell> danneu: uh except wallet.dat doesn't just contain secrets.
1941 2013-12-02 18:27:11 <danneu> it's also an arbitrary flatfile cache
1942 2013-12-02 18:27:32 <danneu> exactly
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1944 2013-12-02 18:28:46 <gmaxwell> danneu: it contains all of the wallet data and and metadata. ::shrugs:: At least in the context of bitcoin-qt the concept of a wallet is reasonably well defined.
1945 2013-12-02 18:29:32 <danneu> yeah, i lament the usage of 'wallet' in general
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1950 2013-12-02 18:32:58 <gmaxwell> danneu: I'm not sure why. What do you propose as an alternative?
1951 2013-12-02 18:33:25 <gmaxwell> Sack-of-Coins?
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1954 2013-12-02 18:34:14 <danneu> haha, i mean that it's unfortunate that a long-running game of telephone has blurred the meaning of wallet in its everyday use
1955 2013-12-02 18:36:09 <Ry4an> that ones bitcoins are actually inside the wallet seems to be the first misconception everyone new to bitcoin has (and the one the press can never get past). If "keyring" weren't used by every system under the sun it'd've been a better name.
1956 2013-12-02 18:36:23 <danneu> yeah, that's exactly it
1957 2013-12-02 18:36:38 <gmaxwell> Ry4an: They're as much "actually inside" as they are located in any other specific location.
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1959 2013-12-02 18:37:08 <Ry4an> If bitcoiners had all had bank accounts in the 1930s it could have been called "passbook", which a real world noun with an incredibly similar function (except no one has passbooks for their bankaccounts any more).
1960 2013-12-02 18:37:19 <gmaxwell> About the only harm I've seen coming from that is the belief that you need to be online to recieve coins.
1961 2013-12-02 18:37:49 groglogic has joined
1962 2013-12-02 18:38:47 <gmaxwell> It is what it is, any word will carry its benefits of intutive understanding, and harm of mismatches that lead to misunderstanding. The two are probably proportional too.
1963 2013-12-02 18:39:18 <gmaxwell> If it had instead been called "weeblix" there would be no confusion from preconcieved notions ... but no englightment from the accurate parallels that exist.
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1965 2013-12-02 18:39:46 <gmaxwell> enlightenment*
1966 2013-12-02 18:39:54 <Ry4an> gmaxwell: I'm not advocating for a change in terminology at this great date, but the "harm" is taht people think that as long as they have the wallet no one else could access those coins too.
1967 2013-12-02 18:40:00 <Ry4an> s/great/late/
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1971 2013-12-02 18:41:32 <danneu> yeah, that's it. 'wallet' contributes to an intuition that youre coins are "in" it. ideally the intuition would be that the wallet only contains the secrets that allow you to access coins "in the cloud". in so far that i think it makes the security/backup model more clear to the average person that they're saving a textfile of passwords, not coins.
1972 2013-12-02 18:41:37 <gmaxwell> Hm. I'm pretty sure I've never actually run into that confusion. E.g. from someone clueless I helped this weekend 'Someone must have copied my wallet but I don't know how that is possible!'
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1974 2013-12-02 18:43:27 <gmaxwell> danneu: Hm. but it's not exactly like a textfile of passwords either, as it contains (and should contain) unpassword like personal data data, like transaction metadata which is also not "in the cloud".
1975 2013-12-02 18:44:06 <gmaxwell> I could be all abstract about that and say "that stuff is secrets too", okay, but it's not really the same kind of secrets.
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1977 2013-12-02 18:45:25 <danneu> isn't that metadata just a matter of implementation detail? i've only dabbled in the contents of wallet.dat with pywallet and that was the impression it left me with
1978 2013-12-02 18:48:20 <danneu> i'm not trying to argue with what wallet.dat should or should not contain. i just encounter people on r/bitcoin that seem to arrive at an a-ha moment when they get a better understanding of their wallet's actual relationship with the blockchain
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1980 2013-12-02 18:48:53 <danneu> i have no proposed solution or anything
1981 2013-12-02 18:49:11 <danneu> to me these things get resolved overtime with ecosystem maturity
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1985 2013-12-02 18:57:09 <gmaxwell> danneu: no, it's not an implementation detail. It contains data that isn't (and shouldn't be) anywhere else.
1986 2013-12-02 18:57:38 <gmaxwell> I mean you could split the wallet.dat into keys and metadata files, but then people would very reliably not backup everything and be sad about the results.
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1989 2013-12-02 18:58:47 <gmaxwell> danneu: I can tell you without metadata trying to figure out your finanances months later without labels/comments on your transactions is a nightmare.
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1999 2013-12-02 19:05:05 <danneu> right, it should be there for wallet.dat
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2029 2013-12-02 19:42:24 <warren> Ryan52: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3343 could you please review this? simple change, needs sanity check
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2033 2013-12-02 19:48:24 <phantomcircuit> 2013-12-02 19:43:06 SetBestChain: new best=000000000000034a7dedef4a161fa058a2d67a173a90155f3a2fe6fc132e0ebf height=200000 log2_work=68.741562 tx=7316696 date=2012-09-22 10:45:59 progress=0.126411
2034 2013-12-02 19:48:24 <phantomcircuit> 2013-12-02 19:32:44 SetBestChain: new best=00000000839a8e6886ab5951d76f411475428afc90947ee320161bbf18eb6048 height=1 log2_work=33.000022 tx=2 date=2009-01-09 02:54:25 progress=0.000000
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2041 2013-12-02 19:56:37 <Ryan52> warren: sure, you mean just by code inspection?
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2044 2013-12-02 19:58:57 <andytoshi> can you guys take a look at http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-faq.pdf
2045 2013-12-02 19:59:03 <andytoshi> and proofread it for me?
2046 2013-12-02 19:59:31 ivan\ has joined
2047 2013-12-02 19:59:57 <cfields> warren: please don't drop libz
2048 2013-12-02 20:00:05 <cfields> also, qt pulls in libpng, so removing it is moot
2049 2013-12-02 20:00:29 SiD`` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2050 2013-12-02 20:00:55 <wumpus> cfields: qt has its own libpng embedded, it never used ours
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2052 2013-12-02 20:01:02 <wumpus> cfields: and libz isn't needed for anything
2053 2013-12-02 20:01:17 <cfields> wumpus: indeed, but iirc it's equally as old and crusty
2054 2013-12-02 20:01:24 <cfields> wumpus: qt5 requires libz (for the moment)
2055 2013-12-02 20:01:47 <wumpus> cfields: so this changes nothing
2056 2013-12-02 20:01:52 <wumpus> cfields: it's just a cleanup
2057 2013-12-02 20:02:15 <wumpus> qt5 should include libz as well?
2058 2013-12-02 20:02:25 <wumpus> why does it need an external one?
2059 2013-12-02 20:02:54 <cfields> wumpus: it's required, yes. I haven't looked into whether it's worth forcing it off/internal or not
2060 2013-12-02 20:03:02 <cfields> *yet
2061 2013-12-02 20:04:28 <wumpus> well it's probably best to have as little external dependencies as possible
2062 2013-12-02 20:04:35 <cfields> dropping png for the sake of qt's is fine by me, but dropping libz would hinder the work i'm doing at this moment
2063 2013-12-02 20:05:41 <cfields> wumpus: that's a fallacy though, nothing changes wrt dependencies, it just shuffles off who builds them.
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2066 2013-12-02 20:06:06 <cfields> and makes it more difficult if a new dep comes in that also requires zlib support
2067 2013-12-02 20:06:06 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2068 2013-12-02 20:06:10 <wumpus> but if it's included in qt, you're downloading it anyway, no need to build it seperately
2069 2013-12-02 20:06:24 <Luke-Jr> using an external one allows both parts to share the code and perhaps more importantly, lets us use the latest stable libpng/libz
2070 2013-12-02 20:06:25 <wumpus> when that happens we can worry about that
2071 2013-12-02 20:06:49 <wumpus> ok, closed the pull, never mind
2072 2013-12-02 20:07:09 <cfields> exactly. the reason for dumping libpng there was because it's too old. If we use qt's instead, we're helpless to replace it if needed
2073 2013-12-02 20:07:21 <wumpus> just upgrade qt?
2074 2013-12-02 20:07:22 <gmaxwell> I think we'd avoided libz before just because it's been a constant source of CVEs and people whine at us to update it even though its irrelevant.
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2076 2013-12-02 20:08:12 <wumpus> yes, both libpng and zlib as built in -deps are irrelevant as qt uses its own
2077 2013-12-02 20:08:27 <wumpus> sure, it can use external ones as well, but there's no point on doing that on windows
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2079 2013-12-02 20:08:32 <wumpus> as everything is statically linked anyway
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2082 2013-12-02 20:09:13 <wumpus> but anyway, let's just keep it like this, I don't feel strongly about it or discussing about it
2083 2013-12-02 20:09:30 <warren> wumpus: please upgrade them instead?
2084 2013-12-02 20:09:35 <wumpus> why? they're not used
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2086 2013-12-02 20:09:39 qbase has quit (Ping timeout: 242 seconds)
2087 2013-12-02 20:09:46 <warren> why are we shipping things that aren't used? =)
2088 2013-12-02 20:09:53 <warren> building ...
2089 2013-12-02 20:09:54 <wumpus> feel free to submit a pull to upgrade them, but I won't spend time on it as *they are not used*
2090 2013-12-02 20:10:17 qbase has joined
2091 2013-12-02 20:10:25 <wumpus> we're not shipping them either
2092 2013-12-02 20:10:31 <cfields> please just wait a beat. I'm preparing qt5 support (for use in .9), so this discussion really isn't worth having as things stand
2093 2013-12-02 20:10:38 <wumpus> they don't affect the eventual executable in any way
2094 2013-12-02 20:10:54 edulix has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2095 2013-12-02 20:11:06 <wumpus> we're building them to make libqrencode happy, but with a configure flag that's no longer needed
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2097 2013-12-02 20:11:59 <wumpus> cfields: yes, let's get qt5 support in first then
2098 2013-12-02 20:12:11 <wumpus> I've already closed the pull, let's forget it ever existed
2099 2013-12-02 20:13:27 <warren> forget what ever existed?
2100 2013-12-02 20:13:34 <wumpus> hah
2101 2013-12-02 20:13:51 <warren> bbl for real
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2108 2013-12-02 20:14:17 <nsh> so i had another look at the work of Eli Ben-Sasson, et al., which seems to have progressed a little since his talk at the bitcoin conference on Succinct Computational Integrity and Privacy. does anyone know if any efforts are underway to do some proof-of-concept for short verification of proofs of blockchain integrity for e.g. SPV clients?
2109 2013-12-02 20:14:22 sserrano44 has joined
2110 2013-12-02 20:14:48 <nsh> this paper seems to have enough skeleton for a scaled-down PoC: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/507.pdf
2111 2013-12-02 20:14:50 <gmaxwell> nsh: #bitcoin-wizards is mostly where we've been discussing stuff like that.
2112 2013-12-02 20:14:57 <nsh> gmaxwell, right
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2119 2013-12-02 20:18:54 <phantomcircuit> 2013-12-02 20:02:34 SetBestChain: new best=000000000000034a7dedef4a161fa058a2d67a173a90155f3a2fe6fc132e0ebf height=200000 log2_work=68.741562 tx=7316696 date=2012-09-22 10:45:59 progress=0.126403
2120 2013-12-02 20:18:57 <phantomcircuit> 2013-12-02 19:51:48 SetBestChain: new best=00000000839a8e6886ab5951d76f411475428afc90947ee320161bbf18eb6048 height=1 log2_work=33.000022 tx=2 date=2009-01-09 02:54:25 progress=0.000000
2121 2013-12-02 20:19:05 airfull_ has joined
2122 2013-12-02 20:19:31 <phantomcircuit> yeah
2123 2013-12-02 20:19:37 _W_ has joined
2124 2013-12-02 20:19:47 <phantomcircuit> there is no real difference between mmap and write during initial block sync
2125 2013-12-02 20:20:54 CriticalH has joined
2126 2013-12-02 20:21:05 <phantomcircuit> ~4% slower
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2150 2013-12-02 20:41:01 <sipa> phantomcircuit: iirc, sanjay is dropping mmap in leveldb
2151 2013-12-02 20:41:06 <sipa> *considering
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2159 2013-12-02 20:46:17 <qwewq> Hello, I have a fairly simple question for older developers - what was the compiler used to build first versions of Satoshi client?
2160 2013-12-02 20:46:30 johnsoft has joined
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2168 2013-12-02 20:48:21 <edcba> qwewq: devs are not in the business of unmasking identities...
2169 2013-12-02 20:48:39 <edcba> do your own work
2170 2013-12-02 20:48:56 Cray-on- has joined
2171 2013-12-02 20:49:14 <qwewq> I am just curious. Satoshi client = Bitcoin today's Bitcoin-Qt. I believe the original Bitcoin was compiled in Visual C++, althought I cannot find any references.
2172 2013-12-02 20:49:30 agnostic98 has joined
2173 2013-12-02 20:49:37 <Luke-Jr> qwewq: Bitcoin-Qt is not the original client. That was discarded when Bitcoin-Qt was released.
2174 2013-12-02 20:49:44 <qwewq> whois qwewq
2175 2013-12-02 20:49:59 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, eh the codebase is largely identical
2176 2013-12-02 20:50:18 <edcba> yeah but you have to use original code/binary to compare
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2178 2013-12-02 20:50:37 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: not really
2179 2013-12-02 20:51:04 <qwewq> (testing macros, didn't notice lacking '/' character)
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2183 2013-12-02 20:51:58 <andytoshi> thx to Luke-Jr for his fixes, i have updated my faq, current draft is here
2184 2013-12-02 20:52:01 <andytoshi> http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-faq.pdf
2185 2013-12-02 20:52:11 <andytoshi> i have to run, be afk for an hour or so, but any comments are welcome
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2188 2013-12-02 20:56:51 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, for adjusting the maximum block size, have you considered at all increasing by 2% per retarget? that would be about a 65% increase/year which would almost certainly be slower than the rate at which the price of hardware drops
2189 2013-12-02 20:56:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ^ any opinion there?
2190 2013-12-02 20:58:51 <helo> either going to be too much or too little, won't be just right
2191 2013-12-02 20:59:21 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: thats been suggested in threads, the problem with all exponential whatever is that they'll almost certantly be wildly off in one way or another... so they're hard to set conservatively.
2192 2013-12-02 21:00:03 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, right but ultimately we're not going to be able to change it every year or anything
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2194 2013-12-02 21:00:14 <phantomcircuit> so maybe an exponential with a cap?
2195 2013-12-02 21:00:43 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: we have the issues of cpu/bandwidth/storage which all scale somewhat differently over time... and then demand, the assumption that tx fees will pay for security in the future are potentially endangered if it gets larger than the fee paying volume.
2196 2013-12-02 21:00:54 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: dunno you can muse about this all day long, there isn't an obvious unique solution.
2197 2013-12-02 21:01:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, my issue with increasing the block size has always been around fees
2198 2013-12-02 21:01:18 <phantomcircuit> im not sure there is an obvious solution there
2199 2013-12-02 21:01:19 <gmaxwell> then you get in like "2%, but only if difficulty is not going down, capped to z except on alternative tuesdays"
2200 2013-12-02 21:01:30 <phantomcircuit> heh
2201 2013-12-02 21:02:19 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you could also measure the tx volume and increase the max block size based on that with a rate limiter
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2203 2013-12-02 21:02:55 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: there were some comments like "up x% more than the last median of y sizes, but only if difficulty is equal to or higher than the difficulty from Q ago"
2204 2013-12-02 21:03:15 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: that reduces to "miners choose" since you can obviously pad blocks with transactions.
2205 2013-12-02 21:03:40 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, right but miners have an incentive to keep the blocks a reasonable size
2206 2013-12-02 21:03:59 <phantomcircuit> or at least i think they do
2207 2013-12-02 21:04:03 <phantomcircuit> i guess i'd have to think on that some more
2208 2013-12-02 21:04:04 <gmaxwell> "or, let miners express a desired limit in coinbases, use the median of N miners views, capped to x% per retarget, where x is some function of difficulty increase"
2209 2013-12-02 21:04:36 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I don't think they do. Peter todd argues that miners actually have incentives to make them insanely big, in order to drive marginal miners out of the mining business.
2210 2013-12-02 21:04:51 <gmaxwell> maybe in practice its not that bad, but its at least not simple.
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2212 2013-12-02 21:05:41 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that would really only remove the absolute most ridiculously marginal miners
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2214 2013-12-02 21:05:58 <phantomcircuit> but ic an see how long term that would be problematic for people mining using tor linsk or something
2215 2013-12-02 21:06:13 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no way. a couple 1gbyte blocks would shut me down, for example.
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2218 2013-12-02 21:06:56 <helo> i would really like to know what a fifteen-year-old bitcoin with 1MB blocks looks like, but that is kind of out the window with the presumption of mass adoption
2219 2013-12-02 21:07:09 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea part of petertodd's argument is that if mining is too resource extensive it increases our regulatory exposure.
2220 2013-12-02 21:07:11 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it would take a while to get to 1GB blocks with a cap of 65%/year :)
2221 2013-12-02 21:07:41 <gmaxwell> in any case, my concern right now is that we're already falling over at current load levels.
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2224 2013-12-02 21:08:37 <gmaxwell> e.g. bitcoins failing to work on 32 bit systems, accessible full node counts aren't so great. My HS bitcoin node is up to ~100 connections. (96 at the moment).
2225 2013-12-02 21:08:44 <gmaxwell> so we need to fix that.
2226 2013-12-02 21:09:15 <gmaxwell> 60% of hashpower controlled by 3-4 nodes...
2227 2013-12-02 21:09:26 <qwewq> ?
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2236 2013-12-02 21:11:41 <Nothing4You> not sure whether this is the right place to ask, but does anyone know how to build bitcoin on wheezy? i can't seem to find the c++ headers in the repos - do i have to build db4.8 myself?
2237 2013-12-02 21:12:33 <Luke-Jr> there's a PPA
2238 2013-12-02 21:13:22 <Nothing4You> i tried the ppa but it failed saying libdb4.8 : Depends: libc6 (>= 2.17) but 2.13-38 is to be installed
2239 2013-12-02 21:13:44 <helo> Nothing4You: you can compile against db5.1 in wheezy... your wallet may end up incompatiblewith db4.8 builds is all
2240 2013-12-02 21:14:10 <helo> the ppa is for ubuntu... probably not going to have much luck on debian
2241 2013-12-02 21:14:13 <Nothing4You> ok, will i be able to import 4.8 wallets though?
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2243 2013-12-02 21:14:20 <Nothing4You> or may that also be broken?
2244 2013-12-02 21:14:46 <helo> that should work fine
2245 2013-12-02 21:14:51 <Nothing4You> ok, thanks
2246 2013-12-02 21:14:58 <helo> you can also downgrade to 4.8 manually if the need arises
2247 2013-12-02 21:15:32 <Nothing4You> ok
2248 2013-12-02 21:15:37 <Nothing4You> that should work for me
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2251 2013-12-02 21:20:50 <Nothing4You> uhm
2252 2013-12-02 21:21:00 <Nothing4You> what is the memory minimum requirement for building bitcoin?
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2257 2013-12-02 21:23:32 <gmaxwell> Nothing4You: to be safe, probably 2 gb. (Of course thats ram+swap)
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2262 2013-12-02 21:26:55 <madthanu> what no-mmap version of leveldb is being used in the latest OMG build?
2263 2013-12-02 21:27:03 <madthanu> is it https://github.com/pstratem/bitcoin/tree/leveldbnommap?
2264 2013-12-02 21:27:23 <madthanu> the reason im asking is because that version seems to not issue some necessary fsync()s
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2271 2013-12-02 21:30:55 <phantomcircuit> madthanu, can you expand on that?
2272 2013-12-02 21:33:05 <madthanu> phantomcircuit, i did an strace, and that version seems to not issue fsync() on the parent directory after creating a file ...
2273 2013-12-02 21:33:22 <madthanu> phantomcircuit: leveldb used to be like that some versions ago, but then they fixed it
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2279 2013-12-02 21:34:45 <madthanu> phantomcircuit: probably not a problem atop HFS, so not a problem for testing the OMG builds, but it'd be best to issue the parent directory fsyncs on the deployment version of bitcoin-qt
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2283 2013-12-02 21:36:10 <phantomcircuit> madthanu, that patch shouldn't effect that behaviour unless im missing something
2284 2013-12-02 21:36:53 <phantomcircuit> (ie im pretty sure the PosixMmapFile object didn't issue the fsync for the directory)
2285 2013-12-02 21:37:20 <phantomcircuit> madthanu, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3340/files
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2289 2013-12-02 21:39:48 <madthanu> phantomcircuit: PosixMmapFile synced the parent directory when you called sync on the Manifest
2290 2013-12-02 21:40:16 <madthanu> phantomcircuit: line 322 of env_posix.cc
2291 2013-12-02 21:40:45 <phantomcircuit> oh i see
2292 2013-12-02 21:40:50 <phantomcircuit> i'll add that back in
2293 2013-12-02 21:40:53 <phantomcircuit> later
2294 2013-12-02 21:40:57 eristisk has joined
2295 2013-12-02 21:41:00 <phantomcircuit> madthanu, can you add a comment to the pull request?
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2302 2013-12-02 21:43:24 <madthanu> phantomcircuit: git noob here. no idea what is meant by a "comment to the pull request" ... sorry
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2305 2013-12-02 21:43:57 <cfields> wumpus: ping
2306 2013-12-02 21:44:53 <Ry4an> madthanu: that's a github thing. It means go to here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3340/files and add a comment at the bottom
2307 2013-12-02 21:45:18 <Ry4an> (on the "conversation" tab)
2308 2013-12-02 21:45:21 <madthanu> oh right, thanks
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2312 2013-12-02 21:48:15 <Ry4an> np
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2354 2013-12-02 22:31:09 <skinnkavaj> How did bitcointalk get hacked?
2355 2013-12-02 22:31:14 <skinnkavaj> What is a man in a middle attack?
2356 2013-12-02 22:31:16 Cray-on- has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2357 2013-12-02 22:33:18 <hno> skinnkavaj, someone stole their DNS provider account.
2358 2013-12-02 22:33:18 <Nothing4You> skinnkavaj: their DNS was taken over, they could redirect the requests to their own server. they also were able to get a valid ssl certificate as they had the domain. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-in-the-middle_attack
2359 2013-12-02 22:34:03 <Emcy_> wow thast nasty
2360 2013-12-02 22:34:06 <Emcy_> very very nasty
2361 2013-12-02 22:34:15 <nsh> worse things happen at sea
2362 2013-12-02 22:34:34 <Emcy_> again i cannot believe browsers dont complain when a cert changes as a matter of course
2363 2013-12-02 22:35:08 <Nothing4You> Emcy_: cert updates are a normal thing
2364 2013-12-02 22:35:10 <gmaxwell> Emcy_: they change constantly in practice.
2365 2013-12-02 22:35:15 <hno> Emcy_, certificates need to be changed every now and then. But it is possible to request a lockdown at some browser vendors.
2366 2013-12-02 22:35:19 <Emcy_> id always assumed a cert from a different CA than usual would raise the klaxons, because its so bloody obviouos
2367 2013-12-02 22:35:34 <gmaxwell> It's even good security to not put the same cert on more than one host (or at least in more than one datacenter) but then you may loadbalance over many.
2368 2013-12-02 22:35:35 Cray-on- has joined
2369 2013-12-02 22:35:55 <Emcy_> was it different CA?
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2374 2013-12-02 22:36:32 <gmaxwell> We're not actually sure if another cert was issued, it would have been trivial because cloudflare has a magical agreement with a CA (a different one) to lubricate the process.
2375 2013-12-02 22:36:37 <Emcy_> SSL is so broken
2376 2013-12-02 22:36:59 <Nothing4You> yup
2377 2013-12-02 22:37:28 <hno> Emcy_, it's the ultimately trusted CA structure and low trust validation that is broken.
2378 2013-12-02 22:37:31 <Emcy_> you have to use cloudflare cert right
2379 2013-12-02 22:37:32 <Happzz> i never trusted ssl to validate the other party's identity or authenticity
2380 2013-12-02 22:37:32 <gmaxwell> It would be nice if CA's always only signed a domain limited intermediate CA cert which was kept offline, and then browsers autopinned that one and if it changed klaxxons could fire, but you could still change root CA and host certs without triggering the alarms.
2381 2013-12-02 22:37:45 <Happzz> i just know it makes my ISP's or whoever's life much harder sniffing my data
2382 2013-12-02 22:38:03 <nsh> synopsis: it would be nice if we didn't have a disasterously broken PKI
2383 2013-12-02 22:38:06 <nsh> :)
2384 2013-12-02 22:38:27 <Emcy_> and this is the basis for our payment protocol....
2385 2013-12-02 22:38:54 <gmaxwell> Emcy_: Do not FUD or I will smite you. It's not the "basis" for the payment protocol.
2386 2013-12-02 22:38:58 <hno> gmaxwell, if someone takes over at this level then they may just as well request a cert from the same CA. Only the domain is verified, not who owns it.
2387 2013-12-02 22:39:19 <gmaxwell> Payment protocol has _optional_ x509 signing so you can get a name on the invoices. You're never better off without it.
2388 2013-12-02 22:39:29 <gmaxwell> hno: reread what I wrote.
2389 2013-12-02 22:39:40 <Emcy_> oh
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2391 2013-12-02 22:40:11 <hno> Gabralkhan, ah, you mean that everyone ran their own limited intermediate CA for their own domain?
2392 2013-12-02 22:40:23 <Emcy_> how is authentication of the payment done without it then
2393 2013-12-02 22:40:37 <gmaxwell> hno: Yes. Thats what I was suggesting.
2394 2013-12-02 22:41:04 <gmaxwell> Emcy_: however you want. Basically you can use it where you would have used an address, and at worst it has no less security.
2395 2013-12-02 22:41:23 <gmaxwell> Emcy_: e.g. if you communicate that over GPG then thats what secures you.
2396 2013-12-02 22:41:39 <Emcy_> oh
2397 2013-12-02 22:41:53 typex has joined
2398 2013-12-02 22:41:59 <Emcy_> in practice its going to be sites existing certs though, ill bet
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2400 2013-12-02 22:42:14 <Emcy_> i dont disagree with it really, gavin was right it was that or it never gets done
2401 2013-12-02 22:42:50 * nsh reads http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_%28SSL%29
2402 2013-12-02 22:43:20 <Emcy_> not sure i agree with the PP getting done before other stuff though, but thats a different issue
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2406 2013-12-02 22:48:00 <hno> nsh, it's also possible to use OpenPGP as SSL PKI, just not adopted very widely outside GnuTLS.
2407 2013-12-02 22:48:17 <nsh> mmm
2408 2013-12-02 22:48:34 <nsh> <nsh> re: bitcointalk mitm hack, did no-one at the site admin notice that suddenly all the connections were coming from one place?
2409 2013-12-02 22:49:26 <nsh> or maybe a cronjob on the server that checks DNS fidelity periodically and pulls the plug if something's amiss...
2410 2013-12-02 22:50:08 <hno> either way, it all boils down to never reuse the same password on more than one site.
2411 2013-12-02 22:50:23 <nsh> well, that's on the user end. you can't save every user from themselves
2412 2013-12-02 22:50:34 <nsh> hno, have you seen djb's minimaLT stuff?
2413 2013-12-02 22:51:00 <hno> nsh, no. should I?
2414 2013-12-02 22:51:01 <nsh> looks kinda promising for improving on SSL potentially
2415 2013-12-02 22:51:17 <nsh> hno: http://cr.yp.to/tcpip/minimalt-20131031.pdf
2416 2013-12-02 22:51:28 <nsh> impressed me; still waiting for code though
2417 2013-12-02 22:51:42 <gmaxwell> nsh: it was noticed, but the dns changes took time to propagate.
2418 2013-12-02 22:51:46 <hno> heh, already downloaded. Google is quick.
2419 2013-12-02 22:51:58 <nsh> gmaxwell, right
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2425 2013-12-02 22:56:08 <edulix> nsh: there was a mitm in bitcointalk? o_O
2426 2013-12-02 22:56:45 <nsh> so it seems: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1rvgfj/bitcointalk_passwords_captured/
2427 2013-12-02 22:57:11 <edulix> gmaxwell: btw I'm reading the the zk-SNARK thing is so awesome..! infinite possibilities =)
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2429 2013-12-02 22:58:20 <gmaxwell> nsh: wow, nice fud on reddit.
2430 2013-12-02 22:58:35 <nsh> aye. to be expected, i guess
2431 2013-12-02 22:58:48 <gmaxwell> nsh: the note on the bct is precautionary, there is no evidence that the attacker was actually successful. It looks like they mostly managed to break it.
2432 2013-12-02 22:58:57 * nsh nods
2433 2013-12-02 22:59:00 <gmaxwell> Good to assume that they were, since they could have been.
2434 2013-12-02 22:59:11 <edulix> nsh: talking about alternatives to the CA authorities, I guess you know namecoin has their own proposition on that, right?
2435 2013-12-02 23:00:22 <nsh> vaguely, but what are the prospects for reviving namecoin in the near future?
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2437 2013-12-02 23:01:35 <edulix> that I don't know, I think it's alive? :)
2438 2013-12-02 23:01:54 <gmaxwell> alive but mostly worthless and not improving at all.
2439 2013-12-02 23:02:06 <nsh> i think the difficulty was with merged mining
2440 2013-12-02 23:02:08 <nsh> iirc
2441 2013-12-02 23:02:23 <gmaxwell> nsh: huh?
2442 2013-12-02 23:02:48 <edulix> well last time I saw, there's a lot of people mining namecoins
2443 2013-12-02 23:03:01 <edulix> so I'd asume there's a lot merge mining going on
2444 2013-12-02 23:03:14 <spokesz> can we daisychain bitcoind
2445 2013-12-02 23:03:16 <nsh> gmaxwell, i must misremember. what's the worthlessness cause?
2446 2013-12-02 23:03:21 <nsh> or lack of improvement cause
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2448 2013-12-02 23:03:34 <spokesz> can i run bitcoind as a server that also connects to another rpc server
2449 2013-12-02 23:03:44 <gmaxwell> no there is nothing wrong with that. The most significant problems in my assessment are that it's not currently possible to build a secure namecoin resolver that doesn't have the whole blockchain, and the price of a domain went down to ~0 so that spammers have just bulk registered the dictionary and then some, so reasonable names are hard to get ane most reconizable names are owned by spammers.
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2451 2013-12-02 23:04:38 <nsh> well, a reboot would solve the spam problem, with a little political friction from legitimate owners
2452 2013-12-02 23:04:50 <nsh> keeping the price sensible seems a bit more difficult
2453 2013-12-02 23:05:02 andytoshi has joined
2454 2013-12-02 23:05:41 <gmaxwell> nsh: there are a bunch of other things that could be improved if it were redone: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/namecoin_that_sucks_less
2455 2013-12-02 23:05:55 * nsh looks. ty
2456 2013-12-02 23:06:28 <nsh> i didn't realize until yesterday that namecoin was (partially?) inspired by an aaronsw blog post http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/squarezooko
2457 2013-12-02 23:06:46 <nsh> makes me irrationally want it to work even more
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2479 2013-12-02 23:25:48 <edulix> seems like a split is going on - in irc :-P
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2481 2013-12-02 23:26:38 * edulix reading gmaxwell proposal for namecoin
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2492 2013-12-02 23:33:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|andytoshi: page 1, "As addresses are in 1-1 correspondence with signing keys" is only mostly true, since you have compressed vs uncompressed pubkeys
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2501 2013-12-02 23:40:05 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: it's true, so long as you consider the compressed or not a property of the signing key.
2502 2013-12-02 23:40:13 <gmaxwell> (as bitcoin software does!)
2503 2013-12-02 23:40:19 <edulix> gmaxwell: nice suggestions, the P2SH^2 proposals in particular seems quite interesting
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2505 2013-12-02 23:41:30 <andytoshi> michagogo|cloud: well, mathematically it's definitely false since there are 2^256 keys and 2^160 addresses
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2507 2013-12-02 23:41:57 <andytoshi> but assuming RIPEMD+SHA256 is not invertible, it is practically true
2508 2013-12-02 23:41:58 <gmaxwell> oh I wasn't even paying attention to the 1:1 part.
2509 2013-12-02 23:42:05 <andytoshi> ohh, i see..
2510 2013-12-02 23:42:06 <edulix> gmaxwell: the idea of double-hashing is only to be able to disclose the inner hash for the registration, right?
2511 2013-12-02 23:42:10 <andytoshi> one key, two addresses
2512 2013-12-02 23:42:16 <andytoshi> hmm
2513 2013-12-02 23:42:18 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: it's not even pedantically true for a 256 bit hash.
2514 2013-12-02 23:42:33 richcollins has joined
2515 2013-12-02 23:42:42 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: I don't agree with michagogo|cloud's characterization. The compressed or not flag is part of the private key.
2516 2013-12-02 23:43:00 <andytoshi> oh, that's true
2517 2013-12-02 23:43:14 <andytoshi> i forgot that the compression was part of the ec algo, not something bitcoin somehow added
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2519 2013-12-02 23:44:25 <andytoshi> for now i am fine with it, the kind of people who will whine about my bijection being false are not the kind of people who i'd throw the link at
2520 2013-12-02 23:44:26 <edulix> gmaxwell: oh and what you say in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=21995.0 "You can't ask a peer to do this for you unless you trust them not to lie." << zkSNARK changes that :-P
2521 2013-12-02 23:44:30 <gmaxwell> in general I think its inadvisable to fixate on EC. Someday bitcoin may well uses non-EC proof of knoweldge systems for authenticating transactions... scriptPubKey/scriptSig abstracts out the underling cryptosystem.
2522 2013-12-02 23:44:57 <gmaxwell> edulix: yes, though with non-trivial costs. The double hashing does that quite simply.
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2526 2013-12-02 23:45:45 <edulix> gmaxwell: what's EC?
2527 2013-12-02 23:45:47 stalled has joined
2528 2013-12-02 23:46:05 <andytoshi> edulix: elliptic curve [cryptosystem]
2529 2013-12-02 23:46:10 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: Elliptic curve.
2530 2013-12-02 23:46:12 <edulix> oh ok
2531 2013-12-02 23:48:28 <andytoshi> gmaxwell: but OP_CHECKSIG uses ecdsa
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2533 2013-12-02 23:48:42 <edulix> gmaxwell: so you say substituting script with zkSNARK PoK is inadvisable for bitcoin because it requires EC
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2538 2013-12-02 23:50:47 <gmaxwell> edulix: you can put some zk-snark system _inside_ script.
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2540 2013-12-02 23:51:44 <gmaxwell> edulix: subsuting zkSNARK is inadvisable because its cutting edge crypto, slow (relative to ecdsa) to verify, and because the highly efficient schemes today required trusted magic values to achieve public verification.
2541 2013-12-02 23:53:10 <edulix> gmaxwell: thanks for the explaination, I didn't know about the trusted magic values, I'm still reading the paper
2542 2013-12-02 23:53:52 <gmaxwell> edulix: I think a lot of the theoreticians are all too often unhelpfully vague about the limitations of their systems.
2543 2013-12-02 23:54:02 <gmaxwell> You'll see things like "publically verifyable in the CRS model"
2544 2013-12-02 23:54:31 <gmaxwell> which usually means there is some secret data used to create a set of encryption keys, and if anyone knows the secrets they can trivially generate false proofs.
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2547 2013-12-02 23:54:54 <edulix> it could still be a good start point for some interesting altcoin, I believe the new zerocoin is going to use zk-SNARK to make it more efficient (i.e. to make it work)
2548 2013-12-02 23:55:00 <gmaxwell> It's possible to build zk-SNARKS without this limitation, but I think all of the most efficient ones have it.
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2552 2013-12-02 23:59:58 <gmaxwell> edulix: I assume you've seen my CoinWitness and my silly CoinCovenant threads?