1 2013-12-03 00:01:04 <edulix> gmaxwell: coinwitness yes, silly coincovenant no
   2 2013-12-03 00:01:18 <edulix> coinjoin yes too :P
   3 2013-12-03 00:02:22 <gmaxwell> edulix: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278122.0  it's basically just the idea of using the same technology to break fungiblity, and I was asking people to come up with amusingly bad uses for it.
   4 2013-12-03 00:03:01 <edulix> gmaxwell: I'm still catching up, you have anything on secure anon voting systems by the way? this is where I'm currently most interested, trying to figure out possibilities with zerocoin for example
   5 2013-12-03 00:03:12 <edulix> hello ruescasd =)
   6 2013-12-03 00:03:17 <edulix> welcome to here
   7 2013-12-03 00:03:53 <danneu> zombocom
   8 2013-12-03 00:04:06 <gmaxwell> edulix: uh. I invented an optimization for some kinds of cut and choose protocols which is applicable to both interactive and non-interactive cases, which can substantially reduce the size of a proof of a faithful random permutation.
   9 2013-12-03 00:04:31 <gmaxwell> edulix: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=284194.0
  10 2013-12-03 00:05:23 <edulix> thanks
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  28 2013-12-03 00:26:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: wait, is it not true that it's the same privkey, from an ecdsa standpoint, and it's simply two different encodings of the same pubkey?
  29 2013-12-03 00:27:38 shesek has joined
  30 2013-12-03 00:27:47 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: we do not use ecdsa in bitcoin. We use script. It is very very much not the same public key in script.
  31 2013-12-03 00:27:52 andrys has joined
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  33 2013-12-03 00:28:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: ah, fair enough.
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  35 2013-12-03 00:29:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I *think* I understand what you mean by "we don't use ecdsa"...)
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  40 2013-12-03 00:32:14 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: Bitcoin's digital signature system is script. It just so happens that script embeds ecdsa. But, for a more clear example. say you have a 2 of 3 p2sh multisig. You know two of the keys, but .. without the redeemscript you can't redeem. So the redeem script is also required private key data.
  41 2013-12-03 00:33:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Right, that's what I thought you meant
  42 2013-12-03 00:33:38 <sipa> even if you don't make the full script abstraction
  43 2013-12-03 00:33:51 <sipa> bitcoin's public keys are byte sequences
  44 2013-12-03 00:33:56 <gmaxwell> You can basically generalize the idea to "data you must know to redeem" == private key,  "data that allows you to identify an authentic redemption" == public key, ... so in that model compressed or not is a property of the private key for pay-to-hash160
  45 2013-12-03 00:33:57 <sipa> not coordinate pairs
  46 2013-12-03 00:34:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: yeah, makes sense
  47 2013-12-03 00:34:24 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  48 2013-12-03 00:34:39 <sipa> and the compressed and non-compressed version of the same (ECDSA) key are different byte sequences, hence different from bitcoin's perspective
  49 2013-12-03 00:35:07 <sipa> that's why (bitcoin) private keys also carry a flag bit, so each public key has exactly one corresponding private key and the other way around
  50 2013-12-03 00:35:14 <gmaxwell> e.g. I tell you that a payment to hash160 1apple is yours.  You have a set of scalars that could be the private key. How do you know which is which? you have to brute force the compressed or not flag unless you've stored it. ... of course that could just as well be true with any other bit of the private key. :)
  51 2013-12-03 00:35:16 ruescasd has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
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  54 2013-12-03 00:36:36 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc p2sh scripts are actually bruteforced already
  55 2013-12-03 00:36:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So a "bitcoin private key" is, in the case of p2pkh, an ecdsa pubkey plus a un/compressed flag?
  56 2013-12-03 00:36:59 <phantomcircuit> there's a list of possible scripts types that all get tried for every outpoint
  57 2013-12-03 00:37:05 <phantomcircuit> output*
  58 2013-12-03 00:37:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Where the pubkey hash itself is the "bitcoin public key"?
  59 2013-12-03 00:37:58 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: huh? what are you talking about?
  60 2013-12-03 00:38:14 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: yea.
  61 2013-12-03 00:38:29 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
  62 2013-12-03 00:38:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or I guess that would be the scriptPubKey in its entirety
  63 2013-12-03 00:39:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(With the opcodes assumed)
  64 2013-12-03 00:39:10 <sipa> phantomcircuit: we pattern-match outputs against some patterns, turn that into a destination, and look up whether that destination matches something in our wallet
  65 2013-12-03 00:39:25 <sipa> there is no brute-forcing, apart from iterating over patterns
  66 2013-12-03 00:39:50 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: right. At least thats how I look at it.
  67 2013-12-03 00:40:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, I need to stop thinking about bitcoin and go to bed -- it's 2:36.
  68 2013-12-03 00:40:13 <gmaxwell> Goodnight!
  69 2013-12-03 00:40:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Thanks
  70 2013-12-03 00:40:21 <phantomcircuit> sipa, that's what i meant
  71 2013-12-03 00:40:59 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the wallet's Solver doesn't try every possible p2sh because it cant possibly
  72 2013-12-03 00:40:59 <sipa> but it's not variations of scripts corresponding to your pubkeys that are tried
  73 2013-12-03 00:41:18 <warren> I'm back.
  74 2013-12-03 00:41:24 <warren> any reports on no-mmap?
  75 2013-12-03 00:41:29 <gmaxwell> the pattern matching is just so it knows how to extract the destination.
  76 2013-12-03 00:41:50 <phantomcircuit> warren, turns out i missed something in there about calling fsync on the directory if it's the manifest file
  77 2013-12-03 00:41:54 <phantomcircuit> which is a bug
  78 2013-12-03 00:42:35 <gmaxwell> warren: rescrv is yelling at me on the toffoo pull, I'm not clear if toffoo's latest corruption is after an unrelated crash or not, I was hoping toffoo would step in to clarify.
  79 2013-12-03 00:43:11 <warren> gmaxwell: was his latest crash using 0.8.6mactest1?  that has none of my patches, it's purely wumpus' 0.8.6 + rescrv's patch
  80 2013-12-03 00:43:35 <gmaxwell> warren: you can read the pull as much as I can.
  81 2013-12-03 00:43:42 <warren> phantomcircuit: wumpus last night mentioned 0.8.6rc1 would happen, is the updated no-mmap ready?  I'll test in my builds too.
  82 2013-12-03 00:43:48 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  83 2013-12-03 00:43:50 * warren looks
  84 2013-12-03 00:43:59 <phantomcircuit> warren, i haven't applied the fix yet
  85 2013-12-03 00:44:16 <phantomcircuit> (in practice i suspect it's very unlikely to actually cause any issues but will fix it none the less)
  86 2013-12-03 00:44:26 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the output script is just OP_HASH160  hash OP_EQUAL
  87 2013-12-03 00:44:50 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i'd rather wait for Sanjay to do no-mmap upstream than do that locally
  88 2013-12-03 00:45:07 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i agree on principle but how long will that take?
  89 2013-12-03 00:45:13 <phantomcircuit> so to figure out if you can spend that you need to check the cartesian join of all your keys and all the templates
  90 2013-12-03 00:45:20 <phantomcircuit> or am i missing something obvious
  91 2013-12-03 00:45:22 <phantomcircuit> (probably that)
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  93 2013-12-03 00:45:42 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yes, the p2sh addresses you are interested in are just stored in the wallet
  94 2013-12-03 00:45:47 <sipa> phantomcircuit: and we match against those
  95 2013-12-03 00:45:54 <phantomcircuit> ooh
  96 2013-12-03 00:45:57 <warren> In the long-term no-mmap would be great for other reasons, but for the short-term it isn't worth the risk to the already reliable linux/win32.
  97 2013-12-03 00:46:04 <sipa> phantomcircuit: which is the only sane thing to do
  98 2013-12-03 00:46:05 <phantomcircuit> right the p2sh address is the hash itself right?
  99 2013-12-03 00:46:20 <sipa> phantomcircuit: as nobody can send to an address they didn't get from people with the keys
 100 2013-12-03 00:46:30 <phantomcircuit> yeah ok that makes sense
 101 2013-12-03 00:47:22 <sipa> phantomcircuit: sanjay is crazy good, if he wants to, soon
 102 2013-12-03 00:47:22 <warren> sipa: given the other reasons to release 0.8.6, would it be good enough with a temporary no-mmap ifdef for Mac only?  Leave linux/win32 unchanged to reduce risk.  Mac at least is not worse off than before.
 103 2013-12-03 00:47:41 <sipa> i'd just use rescrv's patch for 0.8.6
 104 2013-12-03 00:47:42 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i've been tempted a few times to write a real Solve() function to instantly grab peoples bizarre challenge txouts
 105 2013-12-03 00:47:49 <warren> sipa: rescrv's patch is crashing
 106 2013-12-03 00:47:57 <warren> or something else is crashing after rescrv's patch
 107 2013-12-03 00:47:59 bitspill has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 108 2013-12-03 00:48:08 <sipa> then we first need to understand that in any case
 109 2013-12-03 00:48:26 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 110 2013-12-03 00:48:33 <sipa> i don't like swapping out the writing backing of leveldb in a local branch
 111 2013-12-03 00:48:36 <sipa> for a point release
 112 2013-12-03 00:49:24 <warren> can mac be any worse off?
 113 2013-12-03 00:51:34 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's a relatively minor change that is getting a large amount of scrutiny
 114 2013-12-03 00:51:37 treaki_ has joined
 115 2013-12-03 00:51:45 <phantomcircuit> (certainly it could use more)
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 118 2013-12-03 00:52:19 <warren> phantomcircuit: please let me know when the update is available and I'll push new binaries.
 119 2013-12-03 00:53:08 <saracen> https://github.com/iStyx/IamFeelingLucky
 120 2013-12-03 00:53:10 <saracen> People be crazy
 121 2013-12-03 00:53:39 rweichler has joined
 122 2013-12-03 00:54:40 <phantomcircuit> saracen, lol that's hilarious
 123 2013-12-03 00:54:44 <phantomcircuit> what's wrong with people
 124 2013-12-03 00:55:56 <warren> phantomcircuit: do you think for this point release we should exclude !macos from no-mmap?
 125 2013-12-03 00:56:38 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 126 2013-12-03 00:57:30 Ramokk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 127 2013-12-03 00:58:45 <sipa> phantomcircuit: see sanjay's mails in https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/leveldb/GXhx8YvFiig
 128 2013-12-03 00:58:45 rdymac has joined
 129 2013-12-03 00:58:51 <sipa> there's one 2 hours ago :)
 130 2013-12-03 00:58:58 andrew12 has quit (Quit: never coming back)
 131 2013-12-03 00:59:47 <gmaxwell> saracen: I lot of people believe the directory.io thing is a problem. :(
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 134 2013-12-03 01:00:30 <phantomcircuit> warren, fix pushed
 135 2013-12-03 01:00:35 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
 136 2013-12-03 01:00:48 <gmaxwell> I bet as soon as someone realizes that they can lookup their own key, and then link to a page that shows a key which has recently had 100 btc "stolen" and say "hackers found my key here:"  it'll get worse.
 137 2013-12-03 01:00:51 <phantomcircuit> i hope they have bandwidth limiters
 138 2013-12-03 01:00:59 <phantomcircuit> some idiot is going to try and scrape all the pages
 139 2013-12-03 01:01:13 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's saracen's site.
 140 2013-12-03 01:01:14 <sipa> cloudflare ftw
 141 2013-12-03 01:01:22 <gmaxwell> and its using cloudflare.
 142 2013-12-03 01:01:29 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, can you lookup your own key?
 143 2013-12-03 01:01:36 <phantomcircuit> lol
 144 2013-12-03 01:01:38 <sipa> using the power of mathematics, yes
 145 2013-12-03 01:01:42 <phantomcircuit> cloudflare caching all of that nonense
 146 2013-12-03 01:01:57 <phantomcircuit> oh right i guess you can lookup your private key
 147 2013-12-03 01:01:58 <warren> phantomcircuit: it needs a private key search box to make finding your address easier.
 148 2013-12-03 01:02:17 <phantomcircuit> warren, lol people searching for heir private keys
 149 2013-12-03 01:02:19 <sipa> warren: i hope that's a joke
 150 2013-12-03 01:02:23 <saracen> gmaxwell: I think it's calmed down now. They still don't understand it though, refering to it as a prank, or "fake"
 151 2013-12-03 01:02:23 <warren> =)
 152 2013-12-03 01:02:25 <phantomcircuit> their*
 153 2013-12-03 01:02:33 <saracen> warren: You can now search by private key.
 154 2013-12-03 01:02:36 <warren> oh
 155 2013-12-03 01:02:38 <warren> didn't look
 156 2013-12-03 01:02:47 <saracen> http://directory.io/warning:understand-how-this-works!/5HpHagT65TZzG1PH3CSu63k8DbpvD8s5ip4nEB3kEsreAbuatmU
 157 2013-12-03 01:02:59 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 158 2013-12-03 01:03:17 <gmaxwell> saracen: there were people last last night in #bitcoin bringing it back up because all the keys start with 5 and so did ones they were extracting from their bitcoin client.
 159 2013-12-03 01:03:23 <gmaxwell> saracen: "omg bitcoin uses weak keys!"
 160 2013-12-03 01:03:59 <rescrv> gmaxwell, warren, sipa, phantomcircuit:  I do not mean to yell.  I simply am trying to state a point:  Look at my patch.  The only thing it does is call msync on a region that *necessarily* is unmapped just a few instructions later.  The msync call succeeds, and the subsequent munmap succeed.  The region being sync'ed/unmapped is valid, as the calls succeed.  The *only* other effect this can have on
 161 2013-12-03 01:04:00 andrys has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 162 2013-12-03 01:04:01 <rescrv> anything is that it introduces a delay that was not previously present.  Becoming skeptical of mmap and replacing it may mask the symptoms of something else that is unrelated to the bug on clean shutdown.
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 165 2013-12-03 01:04:16 <saracen> gmaxwell: Ah, I see. I think it has some educational value now though. There's still guys crawling it. Plus that IamFeelingLucky script.
 166 2013-12-03 01:04:28 <sipa> rescrv: yes, my point too
 167 2013-12-03 01:04:43 <saracen> And the articles about it, still don't understand it entirely. Maybe I should add an FAQ
 168 2013-12-03 01:04:54 <sipa> rescrv: i like the idea of moving away from mmap, but if your patch is causing (related or unrelated) problems to appear, we should understand those too
 169 2013-12-03 01:05:16 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, im generally skeptical about mmap working correctly with read/write syscalls on osx entirely at this point
 170 2013-12-03 01:05:18 <wiretapped> gmaxwell: did anything ever come of this idea? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=21995.0
 171 2013-12-03 01:05:50 <sipa> and no offence, but i do trust sanjay more than phantomcircuit regarding leveldb backends, so if they're both working on it, i'd prefer waiting :)
 172 2013-12-03 01:05:51 bitspill has joined
 173 2013-12-03 01:07:29 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: LevelDB never writes to files via mmap while reading from them using another method.  I don't trust a write to immediately be reflected through other means, but nowhere is such a feature required.
 174 2013-12-03 01:08:07 <gmaxwell> saracen: yea, you should add a faq.
 175 2013-12-03 01:08:13 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, im not sure that's actually true
 176 2013-12-03 01:08:19 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: it's worth reading this man page: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=msync&sektion=2&arch=i386&apropos=0&manpath=OpenBSD+Current
 177 2013-12-03 01:08:21 <phantomcircuit> infact i know for a fact that isn't true
 178 2013-12-03 01:08:30 <phantomcircuit> the mmap limiter means that under heavy load
 179 2013-12-03 01:08:34 <phantomcircuit> you can be writing with mmap
 180 2013-12-03 01:08:37 <gmaxwell> wiretapped: lots of discussion some code, as variations of that idea were later proposed by others.
 181 2013-12-03 01:08:40 <phantomcircuit> but reading with standard pread()
 182 2013-12-03 01:08:49 <sipa> phantomcircuit: simultaneously?
 183 2013-12-03 01:08:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, in separate threads i believe
 184 2013-12-03 01:08:59 <gmaxwell> wiretapped: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.0
 185 2013-12-03 01:08:59 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: you're wrong there.  A file is never used for reading until after it is flushed, synced and closed
 186 2013-12-03 01:09:42 <warren> anyone want to buy toffoo's mac and overnight it from Brazil?
 187 2013-12-03 01:09:57 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, sure but i dont trust os x to return the correct results with read() even after flush/sync/close
 188 2013-12-03 01:10:00 <warren> (not sure that' s possible
 189 2013-12-03 01:10:50 <phantomcircuit> i do however trust that read() after write() will be correct
 190 2013-12-03 01:12:11 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: an "msync(..., MS_ASYNC)" must have the same effect as a "write(...)" by POSIX.  an "msync(..., MS_SYNC)" is the more in-line with "write(...); fsync(...)"
 191 2013-12-03 01:12:26 <phantomcircuit> ok the docs say that
 192 2013-12-03 01:12:36 <phantomcircuit> but os x clearly doesn't actually do what the docs say
 193 2013-12-03 01:12:42 <phantomcircuit> i mean ffs fsync is a NOP
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 197 2013-12-03 01:15:12 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, if you look at PosixMmapFile::Sync you'll notice that fdatasync is before msync, meaning if you dont trust msync to actually enforce a flush to disk (which i dont) there is a more than 0 change that even a Flush/Sync/Close cycle will result in dirty pages
 198 2013-12-03 01:15:47 <phantomcircuit> chance*
 199 2013-12-03 01:16:08 <phantomcircuit> if you couple that with not trusting mmap dirty pages to be reflected in read() calls
 200 2013-12-03 01:16:17 <phantomcircuit> well then you have all kinds of problems
 201 2013-12-03 01:16:46 <phantomcircuit> which is why i decided it would be easier and much safer to simply replace the mmap code with write() calls
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 204 2013-12-03 01:17:45 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, and actually the msync documentation for os x says that dirty pages are written back to the filesystem... not to disk
 205 2013-12-03 01:18:04 <phantomcircuit> so not only in practice but the documented behavior is that this will fail
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 207 2013-12-03 01:19:08 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: are you arguing that it's possible for whole pages to b written back to the filesystem without writing them to disk?
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 210 2013-12-03 01:21:09 <rescrv> munmap not preceded by an msync means the kernel can do what it wants with those pages.  An msync with the MS_SYNC flag must do a synchronous write before returning.  One of these is a much more common path than the other.  I'd believe that they'd miss the case of a dirty page not hitting the FS layer (especially given OS X's origins).  I'd bet there's a much smaller chance that they miss a synchronous
 211 2013-12-03 01:21:09 spokesz has joined
 212 2013-12-03 01:21:11 <rescrv> write.
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 215 2013-12-03 01:22:30 <warren> where's the URL for toffoo's latest corruption?
 216 2013-12-03 01:22:57 <rescrv> so while you can rewrite the mmap code because you don't trust OS X, I argue that it's mostly superstition and that the patch I provided is just as safe from a correctness standpoint because it takes the code from the realm of "this is undefined behavior, but it so happens to work" to "this is relying upon specifications that are quite clear about what should happen".
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 218 2013-12-03 01:24:44 * warren wonders how to e-mail toffoo
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 239 2013-12-03 01:41:27 <amiller> gmaxwell, is there a pre-built way to search the blockchain for instances of OP_CHECKMULTISIG
 240 2013-12-03 01:41:30 <amiller> like one you know of from blockchain.info
 241 2013-12-03 01:41:40 <amiller> i want to see how many of them are actually used
 242 2013-12-03 01:41:49 <amiller> i've asked this before and don't recall the answer / might try searching logs
 243 2013-12-03 01:42:39 <gmaxwell> amiller: no. also, you can't see them for unspent p2sh. :)
 244 2013-12-03 01:43:17 <gmaxwell> the answer a couple months ago was "not much" but apparently— petertodd had made some comments— there is someone using them at some scale now.
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 247 2013-12-03 01:47:58 <ers35> Has a bug report been filed at https://bugreport.apple.com/ regarding mmap dirty page writing?
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 254 2013-12-03 01:55:20 <hno> rescrv, MAP_SHARED without the use of mxync is not undefined. Only unbounded in time when the writes will hit the backing store.
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 257 2013-12-03 01:57:18 <Luke-Jr> hno: do you happen to know offhand which standard defines the behaviour in that case?
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 261 2013-12-03 01:58:00 <Luke-Jr> my manpage at least seems to leave it undefined unless msync or munmap is called
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 266 2013-12-03 02:00:05 <rescrv> hno Luke-Jr:  On Linux, munmap will sync.  On some BSDs (OpenBSD is most explicit), you need to msync to ensure the dirty pages are pushed back to the file.  The system can do so, but is not obligated to do so quickly.  That's the gist of what was happening.  There was a region of the file to which data was "memmoved", and then the page was immediately unmapped.  That final change didn't make it to the
 267 2013-12-03 02:00:07 <rescrv> backing file, leading to the corruption.
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 271 2013-12-03 02:01:30 <saracen> Okay, FAQ added: http://directory.io/faq
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 279 2013-12-03 02:05:04 <Luke-Jr> saracen: excellent
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 282 2013-12-03 02:06:26 <gmaxwell> saracen: you might want to add a silly "Because of this the system displays X pages, which is about 400 quadrillion times more pages than there are atoms in the solar system"
 283 2013-12-03 02:06:57 <gmaxwell> (perhaps thats a little more concrete for people than just the 'because math' that you have now)
 284 2013-12-03 02:06:59 ludrax has quit (Quit: bye!)
 285 2013-12-03 02:07:23 <saracen> Yeah, but the atom explanation has become too cliche
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 287 2013-12-03 02:09:40 <Luke-Jr> saracen: ooooh, you could have it generate each page in javascript..
 288 2013-12-03 02:09:54 <gmaxwell> Two quattuordecillion times the age of the universe in pico-seconds?
 289 2013-12-03 02:09:59 <Luke-Jr> no server load
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 292 2013-12-03 02:10:20 <saracen> Luke-Jr: Yeah, I realied that as soon as people started crawling me :(
 293 2013-12-03 02:10:24 <saracen> err, realised*
 294 2013-12-03 02:10:44 <saracen> They'd probably have still done it though, just fetching the same page again and again.
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 300 2013-12-03 02:13:50 <Luke-Jr> saracen: my father decided to print a hard copy of your database. can you advise him on how many orders of toner he should get?
 301 2013-12-03 02:13:58 Dennismckinnon has joined
 302 2013-12-03 02:15:03 <berndj> lucky dad - it isn't an inkjet
 303 2013-12-03 02:15:26 zcopley has joined
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 305 2013-12-03 02:15:50 <Luke-Jr> why would anyone buy inkjet?
 306 2013-12-03 02:16:01 <saracen> Luke-Jr: Ha :)
 307 2013-12-03 02:16:07 <saracen> Speaking of backups: http://pastebin.com/wS14ykC6
 308 2013-12-03 02:16:11 <saracen> Who did this :(
 309 2013-12-03 02:17:14 <saracen> gmaxwell: I added the reddit link to that guy explaining why it is impossible
 310 2013-12-03 02:17:32 xorpt has joined
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 312 2013-12-03 02:17:58 <xorpt> Is there a good channel to discuss the bitcoin, or other alt coins, protocol?
 313 2013-12-03 02:18:34 michael_lee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 314 2013-12-03 02:19:08 <Luke-Jr> xorpt: here, for bitcoin
 315 2013-12-03 02:19:28 bbrian has joined
 316 2013-12-03 02:19:38 <xorpt> Luke-Jr: Great, thanks.
 317 2013-12-03 02:20:32 <warren> anyone know how to remove extremely old tx's from a wallet that will never confirm?
 318 2013-12-03 02:20:58 <warren> I tested it months ago with a client that violated fee rules to verify that Coin Control was working.
 319 2013-12-03 02:21:12 <Luke-Jr> warren: if you find out, let me know XD
 320 2013-12-03 02:21:14 <warren> and now I have stuck tx's in the wallet that retransmit forever
 321 2013-12-03 02:21:20 <Luke-Jr> I've had 2 stuck for like a year
 322 2013-12-03 02:21:35 <Luke-Jr> wow, yep, Dec 4 2012
 323 2013-12-03 02:21:45 <Luke-Jr> almost exactly a year
 324 2013-12-03 02:21:46 <warren> I suppose I could modify the mempool accept to mine them...
 325 2013-12-03 02:21:57 <warren> hell yes, doing that.
 326 2013-12-03 02:21:59 <Luke-Jr> mine are doublespends :P
 327 2013-12-03 02:22:09 <xorpt> I read a bit of the paper from Satoshi about the bitcoin protocol, and right at the start he makes the point that it's better to create some sort of proof of work instead of relying on ips for majority decision. Now at the time that made sense, but now with ASICS I'm not so sure.
 328 2013-12-03 02:22:26 <Luke-Jr> xorpt: IPs are centrally delegated..
 329 2013-12-03 02:22:46 <Luke-Jr> mining ASICs are far more diverse in comparison
 330 2013-12-03 02:22:56 agricocb has joined
 331 2013-12-03 02:22:58 <warren> Error: Invalid amount for -mintxfee=<amount>: '0'
 332 2013-12-03 02:22:59 <warren> damn
 333 2013-12-03 02:23:01 <warren> hahhaa
 334 2013-12-03 02:23:05 michael_lee has joined
 335 2013-12-03 02:23:33 <Luke-Jr> warren: just pastebin the raw tx and I'll prioritise them on Eligius
 336 2013-12-03 02:23:37 <xorpt> My CPU can maybe push 10 Mh/s, there are ASICS pushing 7500000Mh/s, and they cost 14500 dollars. That's like buying 50 ips for a dollar.
 337 2013-12-03 02:23:53 michael_lee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 338 2013-12-03 02:24:13 <Luke-Jr> xorpt: 50 IPs? standard issue is a /48 subnet!
 339 2013-12-03 02:24:26 <xorpt> And I'm on a desktop with a quad core, the real people out there doing the shopping use phones, ipds, notebooks.
 340 2013-12-03 02:24:31 <warren> Luke-Jr: this is my testnet wallet
 341 2013-12-03 02:24:35 <xorpt> Does that cost 1 dollar?
 342 2013-12-03 02:24:59 <Luke-Jr> warren: ah
 343 2013-12-03 02:25:25 <Luke-Jr> if only satoshi had hardforked to add merged mining to bitcoin before he left.. sigh
 344 2013-12-03 02:25:34 <Luke-Jr> (then we could be merge mining testnet with mainnet)
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 348 2013-12-03 02:29:36 pierce has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 349 2013-12-03 02:29:41 <xorpt> Doesn't matter how much it costs, that's a lot of ips ^^
 350 2013-12-03 02:29:44 agnostic98 has joined
 351 2013-12-03 02:30:02 <gmaxwell> xorpt: this is offtopic for this channel, but if you'd like to move it to #bitcoin I'd be glad to discuss it with you.
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 354 2013-12-03 02:30:38 <xorpt> gmaxwell: Sure.
 355 2013-12-03 02:31:26 <warren> Luke-Jr: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34028.0  this tool claims to be able to delete transactions
 356 2013-12-03 02:31:33 ludrax has quit (Client Quit)
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 358 2013-12-03 02:33:14 <warren> Luke-Jr: grrr.... there's no git?
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 367 2013-12-03 02:41:17 <warren> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/jackjack-jj/pywallet
 368 2013-12-03 02:41:24 <warren> Luke-Jr: delete all transactions from wallet and rescan
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 372 2013-12-03 02:45:13 <warren> Luke-Jr: I suppose you can also just delete particular txid
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 388 2013-12-03 03:02:25 <cfields> Luke-Jr: ping
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 401 2013-12-03 03:19:31 <rweichler> hey when i use -walletnotify it doesn't notify me until a new block is mined on my regtest
 402 2013-12-03 03:19:47 <rweichler> id imagine it'd be right when it recieves the transaction (not necessarily when it recieves a block) on the normal network, right?
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 414 2013-12-03 03:30:06 <spokesz> Does anyone have testnet coins they dont need? My app is ready for testing but I dont have any :D
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 430 2013-12-03 03:47:51 <rweichler> spokesz: use -regtest
 431 2013-12-03 03:49:04 <spokesz> rweichler: what does that do?
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 437 2013-12-03 03:57:06 <rweichler> makes your own testnet
 438 2013-12-03 03:57:16 <rweichler> and then you do setgenerate true to instantly get 50 coins
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 440 2013-12-03 04:02:01 <shesek> spokesz, testnet.mojocoin.com
 441 2013-12-03 04:02:45 <shesek> if you can, return it to them when you're doing using them
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 457 2013-12-03 04:26:01 <phantomcircuit> rescrv, check the os x man page it doesn't say anything about whether MS_SYNC pushes to disk or to the filesystem, the way i read it MS_ASYNC pushes async to the filesystem and MS_SYNC pushes sync to the filesystem but not necessarilly to disk
 458 2013-12-03 04:26:18 HaltingState has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 459 2013-12-03 04:26:27 <phantomcircuit> indeed it seems to imply that it's not pushing synchronously to disk at all
 460 2013-12-03 04:26:34 twiceaday has joined
 461 2013-12-03 04:32:40 <EasyAt> Does any known client have built in dust collection or perhaps output consolidation? As in combine more than the required outputs in order to save space in UTXO or something?
 462 2013-12-03 04:33:02 <EasyAt> https://blockchain.info/tx/04479fd1048e79994b6227a1bfadf31ccccf5f46f66dc9ea55bb9abee4fc23a4
 463 2013-12-03 04:33:22 <EasyAt> This person is spending 10 coins but his client appears to have selected extra outputs
 464 2013-12-03 04:34:48 cadaver has joined
 465 2013-12-03 04:36:21 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: that's a crazy interpretation of the man page.  What is the filesystem if not the permanent storage on disk?  The FS module in the kernel?  How would it reach there asynchronously.  To back up my claim:  OS X is certified by the open group to conform to its standard.  See here: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007904875/functions/msync.html .  Pay attention to the words "The msync()
 466 2013-12-03 04:36:23 <rescrv> function shall write all modified data to permanent storage locations"
 467 2013-12-03 04:37:18 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: how do you know they're spending 10 coins? maybe they specified two outputs themselves.
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 471 2013-12-03 04:44:26 <cfields> phantomcircuit: it's saying that MS_SYNC pushes to the hdd, but doesn't guarantee that the hdd flushes its cache to the platters synchronously
 472 2013-12-03 04:44:53 <cfields> so if you request a page from the hdd, you'll get it back as if it's written, but if power is cut, you might not see it again when repowered
 473 2013-12-03 04:46:57 gribble has quit (Quit: brb, borkage.)
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 475 2013-12-03 04:47:14 <EasyAt> gmaxwell: I don't.  Though, the 10 BTC address is coinbase
 476 2013-12-03 04:47:19 <EasyAt> I think, at least
 477 2013-12-03 04:47:49 copumpkin has joined
 478 2013-12-03 04:48:08 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: in any case, there is some fancier coin selection code in armory that might be able to do that, but I've never seen evidence of it doing so.
 479 2013-12-03 04:48:49 <cfields> in fact, the man pages are pretty clear about that:
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 481 2013-12-03 04:49:01 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: at some point I'd like to change bitcoin-qt to do that (e.g. always pull on all the coins on whatever addresses its using if there is already change, and if the transaction already has a fee)
 482 2013-12-03 04:49:02 <cfields> Note that while fsync() will flush all data from the host to the drive (i.e. the "permanent storage device"), the drive itself may not physically write the
 483 2013-12-03 04:49:02 <cfields> data to the platters for quite some time and it may be written in an out-of-order sequence.
 484 2013-12-03 04:49:48 <EasyAt> gmaxwell: Armory only allows selection of address I believe, not output.  Though, that'd be nice
 485 2013-12-03 04:50:10 <cfields> rescrv: so there's your definition, from OSX itself. "permanent storage device" may really be a transient cache.
 486 2013-12-03 04:50:10 <EasyAt> Hm, maybe Armory sends all outputs tied to that address
 487 2013-12-03 04:50:59 <rescrv> cfields: I think it's stronger than that.  See "Synchronized I/O Data Integrity Completion" from http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009696699/basedefs/xbd_chap03.html and note that it's the guarantee that msync(MS_SYNC) is required to give you
 488 2013-12-03 04:51:09 <EasyAt> nvm, then all of the inputs would have the same address
 489 2013-12-03 04:51:25 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: I mean its optimizer can do things like prefer to produce non-jagged change.
 490 2013-12-03 04:52:16 <cfields> rescrv: i'm not arguing the spec, i'm simply c/p apple's stated behavior
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 492 2013-12-03 04:53:24 <rweichler> whats the difference between addnode and connect in bitcoin.conf?
 493 2013-12-03 04:53:25 <EasyAt> gmaxwell: Optimizing like that makes it easier to group addresses in 1 wallet, no?
 494 2013-12-03 04:53:37 <EasyAt> For an outsider to group them*
 495 2013-12-03 04:53:49 <cfields> rescrv: and it makes sense. The OS writes to the disk, and waits for the disk to say that it's written. If the disk uses a hardy (unsafe) cache, that's not to say the the OS lied about the data being written.
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 498 2013-12-03 04:55:21 <cfields> rescrv: in fact, it seems perfectly reasonable that someone like toffoo could be seeing a fw bug on his disk that's not honoring write-through requests as it should
 499 2013-12-03 04:56:47 <cfields> as a (probably useless) point, it may be no coincidence that apple's SSDs (as his is) began getting popular around the 10.8 era, which is where we've seen this thing manifest.
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 506 2013-12-03 05:00:54 <cfields> rescrv: note that despite the tinfoil, I still think your change is necessary and correct.
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 509 2013-12-03 05:02:24 <lifeofcray> can i set transaction fee per transaction?
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 511 2013-12-03 05:02:46 <lifeofcray> if im making a php wallet?
 512 2013-12-03 05:03:24 <lifeofcray> i recon some users would want to have higher/lower fees than others
 513 2013-12-03 05:03:55 <EasyAt> Are you using the reference client as a backend?
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 516 2013-12-03 05:04:30 <lifeofcray> what's a reference client?
 517 2013-12-03 05:04:40 <EasyAt> bitcoin-qt
 518 2013-12-03 05:04:43 <lifeofcray> ah, yes
 519 2013-12-03 05:05:14 <EasyAt> If you''re creating a rawtx, why not?
 520 2013-12-03 05:06:26 <EasyAt> or you can use settxfee
 521 2013-12-03 05:06:34 <EasyAt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list
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 523 2013-12-03 05:07:53 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: like what?
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 526 2013-12-03 05:09:48 <lifeofcray> if i use settxfee, isnt there a risk that two users will call it at the same time? so it's like settx.user1 settx.user2 sendcash.1 sendcash.2 isntead of settx1 send1 settx2 send2?
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 529 2013-12-03 05:12:10 <EasyAt> gmaxwell: @gmaxwell> EasyAt: like what? <-- what are you referring to
 530 2013-12-03 05:12:20 <gmaxwell> 20:50 < EasyAt> gmaxwell: Optimizing like that makes it easier to group addresses in 1 wallet, no?
 531 2013-12-03 05:12:27 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: like "that" what?
 532 2013-12-03 05:12:34 <gmaxwell> your question was ambigious.
 533 2013-12-03 05:14:16 <EasyAt> Well, the optimizer is linking multiple addresses, just to make prettier outputs.  Seeing a TX like that as someone who doesn't know the sender can reasonably assume common ownership
 534 2013-12-03 05:14:38 <EasyAt> Seems unncessary to give that away
 535 2013-12-03 05:15:01 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: right but was it previously already given away? :P
 536 2013-12-03 05:15:19 <EasyAt> Ha, as in is it mine?
 537 2013-12-03 05:15:51 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: no, I mean, the wallet could check when adding extra outputs and only add ones sent to the same address OR which have already been used as a common input previously.
 538 2013-12-03 05:16:13 <gmaxwell> and so linking it again wouldn't really leak much more information.
 539 2013-12-03 05:16:18 <EasyAt> Ah, gotchya
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 614 2013-12-03 06:58:14 <phantomcircuit> cfields, rescrv the actual osx msync man page isn't anywhere near as clear cut on whether it pushes to the filesystem module or to the hdd itself
 615 2013-12-03 06:58:15 <phantomcircuit> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man2/msync.2.html
 616 2013-12-03 06:58:46 <phantomcircuit> "The msync() system call writes modified whole pages back to the filesystem and updates the file modification time."
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 619 2013-12-03 06:59:26 <phantomcircuit> personally i interpret that to mean the pages are flushed into the page cache and marked as dirty but not flushed to hdd and certainly not flushed to platters
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 622 2013-12-03 07:00:08 <phantomcircuit> i can certainly agree that the opengroup version of this man page clearly states it needs to be flushed to permanent storage
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 624 2013-12-03 07:00:20 <phantomcircuit> but os x obviously doesn't care what they think since fsync is a nop...
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 629 2013-12-03 07:07:25 <rweichler> whats the difference between addnode and connect in bitcoin.conf?
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 631 2013-12-03 07:08:39 <weex> addnode is exclusive
 632 2013-12-03 07:08:55 <weex> if you have addnodes, no other nodes will be connected to
 633 2013-12-03 07:09:05 <weex> connect is "please try these too"
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 635 2013-12-03 07:09:16 <phantomcircuit> weex, that's backwards
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 637 2013-12-03 07:10:53 <weex> that's how i roll
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 639 2013-12-03 07:17:15 <freewil> yeah, what phantomcircuit said
 640 2013-12-03 07:18:33 <rweichler> im fricking confused now
 641 2013-12-03 07:18:44 <rweichler> aight so if im like connect=127.0.0.1 i wont get shiet
 642 2013-12-03 07:18:53 <rweichler> but if im like addnode=127.0.0.1 ill be chill?
 643 2013-12-03 07:19:08 <rweichler> or just like a random eye pee
 644 2013-12-03 07:19:25 <freewil> you probably dont want to specify localhost for either one of those
 645 2013-12-03 07:19:37 <freewil> you are telling your bitcoind about other peers with those two options
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 647 2013-12-03 07:20:28 <freewil> i have an internal bitcoind where i specify -connect to tell it to only connect to the bitcoind i have on the edge of my network
 648 2013-12-03 07:20:53 <freewil> so thats the only peer it has
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 650 2013-12-03 07:21:50 <rweichler> Okay, I see
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 652 2013-12-03 07:23:09 <freewil> in the case i layed out you probably want to set listen=0 as well
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 679 2013-12-03 08:01:11 <warren> Anyone have testnet coins?  Please send a few dozen tx's of any size to mfq9MhywsmZijd7DqsDrKLQ9yGD94EUzyN
 680 2013-12-03 08:01:25 zcopley has quit (Client Quit)
 681 2013-12-03 08:01:35 <K1773R> warren: tpfaucet.appspot.com
 682 2013-12-03 08:02:08 <K1773R> warren: http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
 683 2013-12-03 08:02:28 <warren> mojocoin seems broken
 684 2013-12-03 08:02:38 <K1773R> ugh, long time since ive tried
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 687 2013-12-03 08:03:47 <lifeofcray> what's a testnet coin?
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 694 2013-12-03 08:13:47 <xeroc> lifeofcray: the testnet is an alternative blockchain ..
 695 2013-12-03 08:14:06 <xeroc> lower difficulties and some other tweaks .. just for testing of protocol etc..
 696 2013-12-03 08:14:22 <xeroc> lifeofcray: testnet coins are like bitcoins just in the testnet ==> worth nothing ..
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 716 2013-12-03 08:34:28 <iddo> gmaxwell: there's new paper on multi-party computation and Bitcoin: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/784.pdf
 717 2013-12-03 08:35:28 <iddo> looking at page 18, seems like they are using something similar to my first idea on how to do fair coin toss, rather than the improved idea of Adam Back
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 721 2013-12-03 08:36:45 <gmaxwell> 15:20 < gmaxwell> amiller: I expect iddo will be unhappy with that paper.
 722 2013-12-03 08:36:45 <gmaxwell> 15:20 < gmaxwell> amiller: it doesn't really go too much further than the coinflip stuff other than to note that it could be applied more generally. And I assume iddo was working on a similar paper.
 723 2013-12-03 08:36:49 <gmaxwell> 15:21 < nsh> link/ref for iddo's work?
 724 2013-12-03 08:36:52 <gmaxwell> 15:55 < amiller> i think i'll email them and suggest they review iddo's forum post
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 728 2013-12-03 08:37:13 <gmaxwell> iddo: I'd even edited amiller's post about to hyperlink your coinflip thing.
 729 2013-12-03 08:37:45 <iddo> oh sorry, didn't see the previous chat
 730 2013-12-03 08:37:52 wei__ has joined
 731 2013-12-03 08:38:24 <gmaxwell> iddo: You should be idling in #bitcoin-wizards if you can.
 732 2013-12-03 08:38:50 <iddo> if you haven't emailed them yet, then i can email them now so that i could see how they respond
 733 2013-12-03 08:38:58 <iddo> ok
 734 2013-12-03 08:39:09 <gmaxwell> I think amiller has, I dunno.
 735 2013-12-03 08:39:11 <gmaxwell> amiller: ^
 736 2013-12-03 08:39:25 <iddo> ok i'll wait:)
 737 2013-12-03 08:39:46 <lifeofcray> guys, what happens if i send coins to an adress that's in the same wallet?
 738 2013-12-03 08:39:55 <iddo> trying to look now if they also have more interesting constructions in the paper
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 780 2013-12-03 09:20:24 <hno> lifeofcray, depends on your wallet software. It may alert you about it and ask if you really want a transaction or just adjust wallet balances, or just send it anyway.
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 811 2013-12-03 10:12:11 <TD> good morning
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 840 2013-12-03 11:14:44 <diki> I just noticed that the wiki does not specify how you compute the hash of a transaction.
 841 2013-12-03 11:15:13 <stonecoldpat> as far as im aware, you concantate all the inputs/outputs then hash ti
 842 2013-12-03 11:15:23 <diki> double sha256 or single?
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 844 2013-12-03 11:16:00 <stonecoldpat> twice as far as im aware
 845 2013-12-03 11:16:04 <stonecoldpat> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2859/how-are-transaction-hashes-calculated
 846 2013-12-03 11:16:05 <stonecoldpat> talks about it
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 848 2013-12-03 11:16:34 <diki> I think someone needs to add that to the wiki.
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 850 2013-12-03 11:19:43 <stonecoldpat> i cant find it on the wiki either
 851 2013-12-03 11:19:53 <stonecoldpat> im looking into that atm so ill try and give it an update at some point
 852 2013-12-03 11:20:09 <stonecoldpat> (if i can edit it obv)
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 892 2013-12-03 12:36:18 <diki> Another question. Can I trust that the transactions in my copy of the blockchain are valid? I don't want to do any sophisticated verification whether some output can actually spend the funds.
 893 2013-12-03 12:36:44 <sipa> no, you cannot
 894 2013-12-03 12:36:54 <sipa> they're only validated after storing them
 895 2013-12-03 12:37:03 <diki> well that simply sucks
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 897 2013-12-03 12:37:40 <diki> So now I have to verify them all?
 898 2013-12-03 12:38:30 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 899 2013-12-03 12:38:52 <diki> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Transaction_Verification does not tell me what I must do.
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 902 2013-12-03 12:40:22 <sipa> don't
 903 2013-12-03 12:40:27 <sipa> let bitcoind do that
 904 2013-12-03 12:41:07 <sipa> and use getblock to query it for valid transactions in the chain
 905 2013-12-03 12:41:12 <diki> sipa:I am writing my own blockchain parser, my end goal is to export the utxos.
 906 2013-12-03 12:41:30 <diki> however I don't want to mark some output as spent if the transaction was not valid.
 907 2013-12-03 12:41:50 <sipa> you can't just iterate all blocks in the block datadir
 908 2013-12-03 12:41:58 <sipa> it will contain invalid blocks and blocks in side chains
 909 2013-12-03 12:42:08 <sipa> you need to walk the currently active block chain
 910 2013-12-03 12:42:19 <wumpus> bitcoind is very good at keeping track of the utxo, why not let it do that for you
 911 2013-12-03 12:42:37 <diki> wumpus:Won't hurt to learn more about the bitcoin protcol.
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 914 2013-12-03 12:45:50 <diki> sipa:And to walk the active blockchain, do I check if the current block's prev_block value matches the previous block?
 915 2013-12-03 12:46:29 <sipa> use getblock, and follow the nextblockhash
 916 2013-12-03 12:46:45 <diki> I don't plan to use bitcoind at all.
 917 2013-12-03 12:46:52 <sipa> then you'll have a problem
 918 2013-12-03 12:46:57 <diki> Why?
 919 2013-12-03 12:47:10 <diki> I will code everything I need if I have to. All I need is some pointers :)
 920 2013-12-03 12:47:19 <sipa> unless you plan on reimplementing the blockchain verification from scratch, just the block fiels don't contain the necessary information
 921 2013-12-03 12:47:50 <sipa> bitcoind keeps verification information in its databases
 922 2013-12-03 12:48:38 <sipa> you can of course just ask it once for the current best block, and then do everything yourself, by finding all ancestors of that blocks
 923 2013-12-03 12:50:24 <diki> And if hypothetically I did want to re-implement the bitcoin protocol? Writing a node from scratch etc?
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 925 2013-12-03 12:50:42 <sipa> then i would ask you to reconsider
 926 2013-12-03 12:51:14 <sipa> not that trying to do so is not useful as an exercise, but you'll spend more time than you imagine to get the details right
 927 2013-12-03 12:51:19 <diki> I am aware of how the developers feel about reimplementations, I've seen their reaction towards some of them
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 960 2013-12-03 13:22:56 <Luke-Jr> cfields: pong
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 972 2013-12-03 13:31:31 <amiller> iddo, go ahead and email ehtme i havven't gotten to it yet :p
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 979 2013-12-03 13:39:02 <lclc> what was the reason to choose JSON-RPC for IPC/RPC instead of DBus?   Has there ever been a discussion about this or is it just historically
 980 2013-12-03 13:39:49 <Diablo-D3> lclc: because dbus only exists usefully on one OS?
 981 2013-12-03 13:40:00 <Diablo-D3> and the point of the json rpc is to interact with webapps
 982 2013-12-03 13:40:50 <wumpus> lclc: there is a patch for using zeromq floating around somewhere, I don't think dbus would have made much sense
 983 2013-12-03 13:40:51 <lclc> I don't know how usfull it is for Windows, but it exists
 984 2013-12-03 13:41:11 <Diablo-D3> its not useful for osx either
 985 2013-12-03 13:41:24 <wumpus> dbus is meant for a completely different purpose, basically for local system control, not as a general purpose RPC mechanism
 986 2013-12-03 13:41:26 <Diablo-D3> dbus is also a pile of shit and should die in a fire
 987 2013-12-03 13:41:36 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: thats not entirely true either
 988 2013-12-03 13:41:44 <Diablo-D3> its not meant for high bandwidth messaging though
 989 2013-12-03 13:41:49 <Diablo-D3> or low latency messaging
 990 2013-12-03 13:42:09 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: in practice, it is, do you know of any other practical applications that use dbus?
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 992 2013-12-03 13:42:37 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: mostly gnomey kind of shit
 993 2013-12-03 13:42:41 <lclc> ok thanks
 994 2013-12-03 13:42:47 <Diablo-D3> its not all kenrel<->userland shit
 995 2013-12-03 13:43:02 <wumpus> yes -- it was made as a replacement for CORBA, for gnome, which is a general RPC mechanism but kind of overkill for the task
 996 2013-12-03 13:43:09 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 997 2013-12-03 13:43:12 <Diablo-D3> it works for DEs fine
 998 2013-12-03 13:43:16 <wumpus> but it's basically for communication between applications on the local system
 999 2013-12-03 13:43:27 <wumpus> and kernel<->userland "shit"
1000 2013-12-03 13:43:40 <Diablo-D3> but like, linux would have been better served with a L4-style message passing system
1001 2013-12-03 13:43:54 <Diablo-D3> do it all in kernel space, do it at very high speed
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1004 2013-12-03 13:44:19 <TD> basically like android binder
1005 2013-12-03 13:44:50 <Diablo-D3> TD: android whatnow?
1006 2013-12-03 13:45:08 <wumpus> dbus works pretty well for what it's used for, sure, in retrospect it's always possible to think of something better, but I think all the switching around protocols is detrimental to actually accomplishing things in floss
1007 2013-12-03 13:45:08 <TD> android has a local RPC mechanism that's kernel based
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1009 2013-12-03 13:45:16 <wumpus> yes the binder is pretty neat
1010 2013-12-03 13:45:18 <TD> and which lets you send capabilities across channels, etc.
1011 2013-12-03 13:45:22 <TD> android in general is pretty neat
1012 2013-12-03 13:45:22 <wumpus> though heavily underdocumented
1013 2013-12-03 13:45:30 <Diablo-D3> TD: a lot of android isnt linux though
1014 2013-12-03 13:45:31 <TD> hmm it's not that underdocumented...
1015 2013-12-03 13:45:33 <TD> right
1016 2013-12-03 13:45:35 <Diablo-D3> TD: even if it is bolted to the linux kernel
1017 2013-12-03 13:45:42 <Diablo-D3> I'd like to see that change
1018 2013-12-03 13:46:14 <Diablo-D3> android could be a useful OS that lots of people could adopt if google was smart about it
1019 2013-12-03 13:46:24 <wumpus> TD: well it was back in the time I was looking at it, almost all of the low-level stuff was under (or undocumented)... maybe the situation improved
1020 2013-12-03 13:46:46 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: KDE uses dbus for IM and VoIP negotiations
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1022 2013-12-03 13:47:07 <Diablo-D3> TD: like, I'd take android a lot more seriously if google switched to wayland for android instead of displayflinger or whatever its called
1023 2013-12-03 13:47:21 <Luke-Jr> or at least is planning to, not sure if they've put it into reality yet
1024 2013-12-03 13:47:22 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: what's wrong with surfaceflinger?
1025 2013-12-03 13:47:24 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ok, thanks
1026 2013-12-03 13:47:48 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: its wasted effort
1027 2013-12-03 13:48:02 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: surfaceflinger is a simple and effective compositor interface
1028 2013-12-03 13:48:09 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: kde uses dbus everywhere now, actually
1029 2013-12-03 13:48:15 <sipa> wumpus: the first rule of #bitcoin-dev is: do not argue with Diablo-D3
1030 2013-12-03 13:48:35 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: yes, and its also android only and no third parties contribute to it on a regular basis
1031 2013-12-03 13:48:57 <wumpus> sipa: I forgot for a moment
1032 2013-12-03 13:48:59 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: it also cannot use the mesa/DRI stack, and depends on binary drivers that are only for android and not for other systems
1033 2013-12-03 13:49:12 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: its rather useless.
1034 2013-12-03 13:49:48 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: why couldn't surfaceflinger use OpenGL as backend?
1035 2013-12-03 13:50:11 <Luke-Jr> KDE always used dbus everywhere, even before dbus.
1036 2013-12-03 13:50:11 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: well, why would it? apps do not directly use it
1037 2013-12-03 13:50:41 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: all android drawing APIs do not rely on surfaceflinger
1038 2013-12-03 13:50:42 <Luke-Jr> dbus was based (in concept) on KDE's DCOP
1039 2013-12-03 13:50:50 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: I'm pretty sure that's the default fallback even, if a platform doesn't have a native composition engine
1040 2013-12-03 13:50:53 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: yup, it was, I was trying to think of the name of it
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1042 2013-12-03 13:51:05 <Luke-Jr> I had to google it, it's been forever..
1043 2013-12-03 13:51:12 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: I think it can render to opengl, because of the google x86 emulator
1044 2013-12-03 13:51:16 <Diablo-D3> er, google android
1045 2013-12-03 13:51:34 <lclc> I was just asking because FellowTraveler / OpenTransactions wants to make an OT daemon for OT clients like bitcoind is Bitcoin clients. Seems like the consensus in here is that JSON-RPC would be better for that too
1046 2013-12-03 13:51:38 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: and to be fair, dbus is an FDO effort, not gnome
1047 2013-12-03 13:51:49 <Luke-Jr> FDO is GNOME
1048 2013-12-03 13:51:55 <Diablo-D3> FDO is gnome AND kde
1049 2013-12-03 13:51:57 <Diablo-D3> and xfce
1050 2013-12-03 13:52:01 <Diablo-D3> and anyone else that wants to participate
1051 2013-12-03 13:52:03 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: GNOME took over, it seems
1052 2013-12-03 13:52:10 <Diablo-D3> gnome makes the most contributions
1053 2013-12-03 13:52:12 <wumpus> lclc: JSON-RPC is very well supported by languages... the only real issue that we have with it is that it has no 'decimal' type for monetary amounts
1054 2013-12-03 13:52:14 <Diablo-D3> kde chooses not to
1055 2013-12-03 13:52:17 <Luke-Jr> FDO's newer stuff wants to force GNOME libraries on everything else
1056 2013-12-03 13:52:25 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: yes/no
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1058 2013-12-03 13:52:34 <Diablo-D3> newer stuff uses gnome libraries as the standard impl
1059 2013-12-03 13:52:42 <Diablo-D3> but its not a gnome infection route
1060 2013-12-03 13:52:45 <wumpus> lclc: we currently use the number type for those, which is a bad idea because many implementations use doubles/other floating point types to represent it
1061 2013-12-03 13:52:51 <Diablo-D3> its mostly glib-based stuff
1062 2013-12-03 13:53:01 <Diablo-D3> which a LOT of kde uses glib-based libs
1063 2013-12-03 13:53:08 <Diablo-D3> when it doesnt have a native qt one
1064 2013-12-03 13:54:08 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: gnome and kde both are dying out though
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1066 2013-12-03 13:55:05 <lclc> ok thanks wumpus
1067 2013-12-03 13:55:31 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: are you really opposed to the format in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3229#discussion-diff-7551409 ? how would you want it?
1068 2013-12-03 13:55:46 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: my KDE runs just fine without any glib
1069 2013-12-03 13:55:53 <wumpus> lclc: not sure what other popular RPC wire protocols far better in that regard
1070 2013-12-03 13:56:00 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: /me shrugs
1071 2013-12-03 13:56:06 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: FDO is about standards though
1072 2013-12-03 13:56:17 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: you can write a lib that complies to the standard and it works
1073 2013-12-03 13:56:38 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: if nobody participates or adopts it besides GNOME, it isn't a standard.
1074 2013-12-03 13:56:48 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I'll take a look
1075 2013-12-03 13:57:18 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: yes, but KDE adopts FDO standards
1076 2013-12-03 13:57:23 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: otherwise software doesnt work on kde
1077 2013-12-03 13:57:31 <Diablo-D3> which is why FDO was created in the first place
1078 2013-12-03 13:57:43 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I think the && true is confusing, I would remove it
1079 2013-12-03 13:57:58 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: how do I remove it without making it ugly formatted?
1080 2013-12-03 13:58:15 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: as I said though, kde and gnome are dead
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1082 2013-12-03 13:59:03 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I'm looking at this from the angle of expecting a lot more mining options in the future; although I suppose any more and maybe using .count is non-ideal for performance reasons..
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1085 2013-12-03 13:59:45 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ugly is a very personal opinion, in general I don't really care how you format it, but adding unneeded logical operators goes a bit far in making the code "pretty"
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1087 2013-12-03 14:00:11 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: and at least two other people had a 'wtf' response
1088 2013-12-03 14:00:19 <Diablo-D3> wait
1089 2013-12-03 14:00:23 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck would someone do && true
1090 2013-12-03 14:00:37 <Diablo-D3> that'd always evaluate on the first term alone
1091 2013-12-03 14:00:59 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yeah, I see why it should be changed, just not sure a better alternative
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1093 2013-12-03 14:01:41 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it's the same in makefiles... if you have a source file per line you can add \ at the end of the last source file, which makes it consistent but strange (...hey, the \ made me think another source file would follow)
1094 2013-12-03 14:03:44 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: && true is a no-op as part of a logical conjunction, but it does confuse people, that's clear
1095 2013-12-03 14:04:10 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: thats what I mean
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1098 2013-12-03 14:08:17 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: hmm yeah... I don't like the way we do lazy argument parsing, ie, parsing the arguments every time when the values are needed. I prefer parsing arguments at the start of the program and putting them in the appropriate places. This also allows for better error reporting for missing/extra options.
1099 2013-12-03 14:08:28 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: then again, that's outside the scope of that pull request :)
1100 2013-12-03 14:08:55 <Luke-Jr> indeed
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1118 2013-12-03 14:24:28 <iddo> amiller: ok thanks, i'll email them
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1173 2013-12-03 15:11:51 <rescrv> phantomcircuit: it doesn't need to be clear cut.  Even if we read the man pages under your very narrow viewpoint, the msync would make it into the FS layer, at which point the next fdatasync/fsync will push it to disk, especially given the patches that use the OS X-specific method.  So I don't know what point you are trying to make.
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1175 2013-12-03 15:14:06 <Luke-Jr> http://www.forbes.com/sites/reuvencohen/2013/11/28/global-bitcoin-computing-power-now-256-times-faster-than-top-500-supercomputers-combined/
1176 2013-12-03 15:14:14 <Luke-Jr> wow, can you say "full of crap"? XD
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1178 2013-12-03 15:15:20 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ironically, they have an entire section in the article to explain why this number is utterly meaningless...
1179 2013-12-03 15:16:31 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I don't see it?
1180 2013-12-03 15:17:05 agnostic98 has joined
1181 2013-12-03 15:17:08 <sipa> starts with: A few things I need point out about some of the potential problems with bitcoin network’s 64 exaFLOPS number.
1182 2013-12-03 15:17:29 <sipa> they don't say exactly that it's utterly meaningless, but they do give all arguments why it is :)
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1185 2013-12-03 15:20:53 <sipa> btw, i asked bitcoincharts.com to remove their petaflops number
1186 2013-12-03 15:21:10 <sipa> they agreed, given a good explanation why it makes no sense they could put there instead
1187 2013-12-03 15:21:27 <sipa> anyone feel like doing that?
1188 2013-12-03 15:22:07 <quellhorst> can you check the balance of an external bitcoin address with bitcoind? (want to check the balance of a wallet that isn't mine)
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1191 2013-12-03 15:22:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: send them http://www.forbes.com/sites/reuvencohen/2013/11/28/global-bitcoin-computing-power-now-256-times-faster-than-top-500-supercomputers-combined/?commentId=comment_blogAndPostId/blog/comment/2179-2943-704 :P
1192 2013-12-03 15:23:01 <sipa> quellhorst: no, addresses don't have a balance at the protocol level (bitcoin doesn't use balances internally, it's just wallets that exposes it that way)
1193 2013-12-03 15:23:10 erans_ has joined
1194 2013-12-03 15:23:20 <sipa> quellhorst: and computing it requires keeping a transaction index for every address ever used
1195 2013-12-03 15:23:47 <Luke-Jr> .. and that number is entirely meaningless, as addresses are not wallets
1196 2013-12-03 15:25:52 <quellhorst> sipa: ok, then how do sites like blockchain.info get the balances?
1197 2013-12-03 15:26:00 <sipa> by keeping a huge index
1198 2013-12-03 15:26:38 <quellhorst> is there anything open source for that?
1199 2013-12-03 15:26:46 <sipa> why do you need it?
1200 2013-12-03 15:27:13 <quellhorst> wanted to have an independant system for checking balances of some offline wallets, for when they get deposits
1201 2013-12-03 15:27:27 <quellhorst> and if they are certain amounts, then i'll kickoff some code
1202 2013-12-03 15:27:41 <sipa> there are solutions that offer watch-only wallets
1203 2013-12-03 15:27:51 <sipa> which track a balance for addresses that you don't have the key for
1204 2013-12-03 15:27:58 <sipa> without needing to do so for every address ever used
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1207 2013-12-03 15:28:26 <quellhorst> do you know an answer to the first question?
1208 2013-12-03 15:28:32 <quellhorst> open source version of blockchain.info
1209 2013-12-03 15:28:38 <sipa> abe
1210 2013-12-03 15:28:51 <sipa> but it's very resource intensive, afaik
1211 2013-12-03 15:29:27 <quellhorst> you know if money-tree can do watch-only wallets?
1212 2013-12-03 15:29:31 <lclc> an Electrum (or Obelisk) server might be enough
1213 2013-12-03 15:29:42 <sipa> what is money-tree?
1214 2013-12-03 15:29:55 c0rw1n has joined
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1216 2013-12-03 15:30:14 <quellhorst> https://github.com/wink/money-tree
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1225 2013-12-03 15:41:14 <AdrianG> anyone here took a look at the mastercoin paper?
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1241 2013-12-03 15:58:41 <Luke-Jr> the tx mempool has an overflow limit, right? where is the code for that? O.o
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1255 2013-12-03 16:13:27 <CodeShark> it's not so trivial how to handle that
1256 2013-12-03 16:13:57 <CodeShark> once you reach the max mempool size, do you just ignore new transactions until the mempool size shrinks? or do you start trashing some of them right away?
1257 2013-12-03 16:13:58 <Luke-Jr> hrm, I thoguht it was already handled - it isn't?
1258 2013-12-03 16:14:17 <CodeShark> trashing some of the old ones, that is
1259 2013-12-03 16:14:25 <CodeShark> or perhaps trashing the lower priority ones?
1260 2013-12-03 16:15:22 <CodeShark> CTxMemPool::accept is where the could should be in principle, no?
1261 2013-12-03 16:15:56 agricocb has joined
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1263 2013-12-03 16:18:21 <CodeShark> seems rather thorny
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1271 2013-12-03 16:23:13 <CodeShark> it does use a rate limiter, though
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1316 2013-12-03 17:07:48 <shesek> oh damn it. I was trying to send an 5430 satoshi transaction, and for some reason used 4590 instead
1317 2013-12-03 17:08:21 <shesek> its probably gonna be stuck for a long time now :-\
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1322 2013-12-03 17:10:40 <quellhorst> is 5430 the new minimum?
1323 2013-12-03 17:10:56 <quellhorst> shesek: an how long do you think it'll bee?
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1326 2013-12-03 17:11:36 <shesek> I dunno
1327 2013-12-03 17:12:07 andrys has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1328 2013-12-03 17:12:16 <shesek> if it won't get relayed to a miner that accepts dust outputs, its gonna be stuck for a long time
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1340 2013-12-03 17:23:20 <quellhorst>  /join #obelisk
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1356 2013-12-03 18:05:35 ext0 is now known as freggles
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1363 2013-12-03 18:14:14 <cfields> Diablo-D3 / wumpus: ping
1364 2013-12-03 18:14:23 <Diablo-D3> yes?
1365 2013-12-03 18:15:16 bitspill has joined
1366 2013-12-03 18:15:34 <cfields> Diablo-D3: gah, sorry. tab-complete fooled me into thinking i was pinging Diapolo
1367 2013-12-03 18:15:54 <Diablo-D3> heh.
1368 2013-12-03 18:15:58 <Diablo-D3> no one wants to ping me :<
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1385 2013-12-03 18:26:44 <shesek> can I get my bitcoind to not reject dust outputs?
1386 2013-12-03 18:27:22 <maaku> shesek: the dust rate is configurable, though I don't remember the switch
1387 2013-12-03 18:27:46 <maaku> but unless you're solo mining, I don't think it'll have the affect you think it will
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1389 2013-12-03 18:29:52 <shesek> maaku, the tx was already mined, but my client is still syncing and I want it to acknowledge that transaction so that I can create a transaction spending it with (create|sign)rawtransaction
1390 2013-12-03 18:30:02 <shesek> it won't have that effect?
1391 2013-12-03 18:30:23 <shesek> currently, trying to sendrawtransaction the original funding tx is rejected... I'm hoping that lowering the limit and sending it again would let me spend it
1392 2013-12-03 18:30:25 <maaku> no, that
1393 2013-12-03 18:30:31 <maaku> that's a kosher way to do it
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1395 2013-12-03 18:31:06 <maaku> it should work fine
1396 2013-12-03 18:31:29 <shesek> god damn it, why did I have to typo 5430 for 4590
1397 2013-12-03 18:31:32 <shesek> they don't even look alike
1398 2013-12-03 18:35:02 kinglet has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1399 2013-12-03 18:35:32 <shesek> hmm, I started it with mintxfee and mintxrelayfee to 0.00000001, still rejected
1400 2013-12-03 18:36:18 <shesek> its a transaction with spent inputs, but my client is 46 weeks behind, so he shouldn't know that
1401 2013-12-03 18:36:32 <shesek> given that it was already mined into a block and is obviously valid, what else could be causing it?
1402 2013-12-03 18:36:49 <maaku> shesek: -minrelaytxfee is what you're looking for i think
1403 2013-12-03 18:36:57 <maaku> so i'm not sure
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1405 2013-12-03 18:38:08 <shesek> is it min-relay-tx or min-tx-relay?
1406 2013-12-03 18:38:19 <shesek> I can't find either on Running_Bitcoin
1407 2013-12-03 18:38:54 <maaku> -minrelaytxfee is pulled straight from the latest github sources
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1409 2013-12-03 18:39:43 <shesek> ah, I thought it was already standard in the stable releases
1410 2013-12-03 18:40:45 elevatioN is now known as elevatiO_n
1411 2013-12-03 18:40:47 <shesek> I could give the inputs manually to signrawtransaction... but I have 7 of those :-\
1412 2013-12-03 18:41:00 <shesek> gmaxwell, are you around?
1413 2013-12-03 18:41:38 <gmaxwell> shesek: hm?
1414 2013-12-03 18:42:03 <gmaxwell> shesek: it will reject it if the inputs don't exist yet either.
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1417 2013-12-03 18:43:54 <typex> so whats up? anyone have any cool projects going on?
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1426 2013-12-03 18:51:58 <gmaxwell> saracen: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1s0cao/bitcoin_addresses_and_private_keys_are_not_all/  < you've handed all the wannabe market manipulators a free pass.
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1433 2013-12-03 18:56:34 <roconnor> gmaxwell: the content of that link confuses me.
1434 2013-12-03 18:57:18 <gmaxwell> roconnor: saracen made a cure page http://directory.io/
1435 2013-12-03 18:57:32 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1436 2013-12-03 18:57:54 <gmaxwell> and some people are honestly confused by it and freaking out, other people are dishonestly confused about it and trying to freak other people out.
1437 2013-12-03 18:58:13 <roconnor> Is this the later?
1438 2013-12-03 18:58:34 <gmaxwell> I suspect that reddit link is the latter.
1439 2013-12-03 18:59:17 pooler has joined
1440 2013-12-03 18:59:23 wallet43 has joined
1441 2013-12-03 18:59:24 <roconnor> What about the claim that "Wallets such as Electrum don't generate thei private key from x to y?"
1442 2013-12-03 18:59:43 <roconnor> is that just a bald face lie?
1443 2013-12-03 19:00:31 ivan\ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1444 2013-12-03 19:00:59 <andytoshi> i'm not even sure it is a coherent statement
1445 2013-12-03 19:01:29 <andytoshi> what is the purpose of this "cure page"?
1446 2013-12-03 19:01:34 <roconnor> indeed.  The whole benford law reference makes the author seem like a crackpot
1447 2013-12-03 19:02:20 <andytoshi> ohh, this is the fabled dictionary of all addresses
1448 2013-12-03 19:02:36 <gmaxwell> roconnor: it's just a ball faced lie.
1449 2013-12-03 19:02:54 <roconnor> gmaxwell: :(
1450 2013-12-03 19:03:03 <rweichler> hey sorry for all of the noob questions but
1451 2013-12-03 19:03:18 <rweichler> im trying to do this offline wallet-signing demo
1452 2013-12-03 19:03:19 <rweichler> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/signdemo.txt
1453 2013-12-03 19:03:34 <jeremias> lol
1454 2013-12-03 19:03:49 <rweichler> wait.
1455 2013-12-03 19:03:52 <rweichler> hold on.
1456 2013-12-03 19:04:27 <gmaxwell> roconnor: there is some window for honest confusion: the encoded private key has some metadata wrapping it.
1457 2013-12-03 19:04:38 <gmaxwell> (A version number and a length code)
1458 2013-12-03 19:04:58 <roconnor> gmaxwell: that's a frinkin' small window. :)
1459 2013-12-03 19:05:36 <rweichler> okay, so im trying to do that tutorial
1460 2013-12-03 19:05:43 <rweichler> and i dont know how to make bitcoind be offline
1461 2013-12-03 19:05:44 <andytoshi> oh man, the FUD on that reddit post..
1462 2013-12-03 19:05:49 <gmaxwell> roconnor: well I did see someone honestly confused by it, they exported a bunch of keys and exclaimed "they all start with 5 link the list!"
1463 2013-12-03 19:05:52 <andytoshi> i'm not sure whether or not this is funny
1464 2013-12-03 19:06:01 <gmaxwell> rweichler: -connect=0.0.0.0
1465 2013-12-03 19:06:08 <roconnor> gmaxwell: I see.
1466 2013-12-03 19:06:11 zcopley has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1467 2013-12-03 19:06:14 <rweichler> AHA
1468 2013-12-03 19:06:54 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: it's funny, sad, and angering.
1469 2013-12-03 19:07:31 Eiii has joined
1470 2013-12-03 19:07:31 Eiii has quit (Changing host)
1471 2013-12-03 19:07:31 Eiii has joined
1472 2013-12-03 19:07:35 <Happzz> my testnet client won't connect to any node. any ideas?
1473 2013-12-03 19:08:04 <gmaxwell> Happzz: using tor?
1474 2013-12-03 19:08:23 <Happzz> yes.
1475 2013-12-03 19:08:29 <Happzz> my main client works fine tho
1476 2013-12-03 19:08:51 <rweichler> gmaxwell: okay, now, when i do sendtoaddress, it says insufficient funds.
1477 2013-12-03 19:09:05 <rweichler> which is obvious, since there's no blocks downloaded
1478 2013-12-03 19:09:09 <rweichler> how do i get around that?
1479 2013-12-03 19:09:37 <andytoshi> wait for the blocks to come down :}
1480 2013-12-03 19:10:07 <andytoshi> sorry, nvm, i will read that tutorial
1481 2013-12-03 19:10:19 <gmaxwell> rweichler: you don't use sendtoaddress.
1482 2013-12-03 19:12:41 <Happzz> gmaxwell?
1483 2013-12-03 19:12:54 <topace> is there a way to set the transaction fee on a per transaction basis through teh API? or do i have to call settxfee before sendtoaddress ?
1484 2013-12-03 19:13:35 <rweichler> gmaxwell: OH. you're right. i confused the [online] and [offline] bits. thanks.
1485 2013-12-03 19:14:02 <gmaxwell> Happzz: it's just really really slow to connect via tor.
1486 2013-12-03 19:14:11 MobPhone has joined
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1488 2013-12-03 19:14:21 <gmaxwell> Happzz: the problem is that there are very few testnet nodes, lots of bad addresses, and tor has a 30 second timeout.
1489 2013-12-03 19:14:40 MobPhone has joined
1490 2013-12-03 19:14:43 <gmaxwell> Happzz: if you manually addnode a working node it'll come right up.
1491 2013-12-03 19:14:43 MobPhone has quit (Excess Flood)
1492 2013-12-03 19:14:52 <Happzz> can you tell me of one?
1493 2013-12-03 19:14:56 <Happzz> nothing i used worked.
1494 2013-12-03 19:15:09 <Happzz> not much luck without tor either
1495 2013-12-03 19:15:10 MobPhone has joined
1496 2013-12-03 19:15:14 MobPhone has quit (Excess Flood)
1497 2013-12-03 19:15:24 <gmaxwell> Happzz: yea try 5yljdotwhmx65nlk.onion
1498 2013-12-03 19:15:43 MobPhone has joined
1499 2013-12-03 19:15:47 MobPhone has quit (Excess Flood)
1500 2013-12-03 19:16:15 MobPhone has joined
1501 2013-12-03 19:16:19 MobPhone has quit (Excess Flood)
1502 2013-12-03 19:16:55 <Happzz> i think i have a bigger issue. when i try to remove the proxy setting and hit apply, it's marked automatically again
1503 2013-12-03 19:17:05 mynameis has joined
1504 2013-12-03 19:17:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|04:17:09 <warren> anyone know how to remove extremely old tx's from a wallet that will never confirm?
1505 2013-12-03 19:17:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|warren: you can remove them with pywallet, or more generic db tools, or by starting with -salvagewallet, which will make a copy of your wallet and transfer over just the keys, tossing out metadata (like transactions, labels, etc)
1506 2013-12-03 19:17:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|19:04:24 <shesek> oh damn it. I was trying to send an 5430 satoshi transaction, and for some reason used 4590 instead
1507 2013-12-03 19:17:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: 5430 == 4590. The dust threshold (at least, on a v0.8.5 Satoshi client with default settings) is 5460 satoshis.
1508 2013-12-03 19:17:32 MobPhone has joined
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1510 2013-12-03 19:17:43 nOgAnOo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1511 2013-12-03 19:19:29 MobPhone has joined
1512 2013-12-03 19:19:42 <quellhorst> michagogo|cloud: if someone sends 5460 satoshi, can they get away without a paying a fee?
1513 2013-12-03 19:20:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|quellhorst: unrelated
1514 2013-12-03 19:20:29 <edcba> yeah if they mine the block :p
1515 2013-12-03 19:20:34 <quellhorst> haha
1516 2013-12-03 19:20:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Under 5460 satoshi (again, with default settings), a transaction is considered dust and not relayed at all
1517 2013-12-03 19:21:13 * quellhorst remembers back in the day when it wasn't rare to mine your own blocks, lol
1518 2013-12-03 19:21:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The rules for creating free transactions (again, this is all talking about the default in the Satoshi client), among other things, require that no output be under 0.01 BTC
1519 2013-12-03 19:21:59 <edcba> hmm
1520 2013-12-03 19:22:15 <edcba> no output or total of outputs ?
1521 2013-12-03 19:22:28 raistlinthewiz has joined
1522 2013-12-03 19:22:49 Alina-malina has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1523 2013-12-03 19:23:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|no output
1524 2013-12-03 19:23:26 nOgAnOo has joined
1525 2013-12-03 19:24:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|edcba: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fee#Sending
1526 2013-12-03 19:24:15 <v3ry3l33te> is there anything in works which allows association emails with public keys, for Paypal-style transactions? i remember there was aliases section on wiki, but it was revoked since?
1527 2013-12-03 19:25:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|v3ry3l33te: Associating how, exactly?
1528 2013-12-03 19:26:36 <v3ry3l33te> michagogo|cloud, http://dot-bit.org/Namespace:Aliases something like this, or maybe like pgp keyserver, but perhaps distributed.
1529 2013-12-03 19:26:53 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The issue is authentication
1530 2013-12-03 19:27:33 <v3ry3l33te> michagogo|cloud, i do undestand that this layer can easily add security problems, but we have learning curve problems otherwise...
1531 2013-12-03 19:27:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|How do you verify that someone saying "the bitcoin address for foo@bar.com is 1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE" actually owns foo@bar.com?
1532 2013-12-03 19:28:42 <v3ry3l33te> michagogo|cloud, well, perhaps emailing him before adding this into a directory/blockchain/whatsoever.
1533 2013-12-03 19:28:44 phungus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1534 2013-12-03 19:29:14 <Apocalyptic> michagogo|cloud, you don't
1535 2013-12-03 19:29:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Apocalyptic: right
1536 2013-12-03 19:29:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|v3ry3l33te: Well, then you need someone that you trust to verify this information
1537 2013-12-03 19:30:03 andrys has joined
1538 2013-12-03 19:30:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|v3ry3l33te: Now, IIRC there are "send bitcoins by email" services
1539 2013-12-03 19:30:36 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1540 2013-12-03 19:30:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But in that case you're trusting the service to release those bitcoins to whoever owns that email address
1541 2013-12-03 19:31:15 <v3ry3l33te> i just caught myself thinking that it's pretty damn hard to type a bitcoin address, having 4 lappies lying around. yes, i know, vnc and such, but i doubt that i'm the only one with this sort of problem.
1542 2013-12-03 19:31:42 owowo has joined
1543 2013-12-03 19:32:36 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|v3ry3l33te: So don't type bitcoin addresses
1544 2013-12-03 19:32:42 dexX7 has joined
1545 2013-12-03 19:32:52 <v3ry3l33te> michagogo|cloud, i know i know...
1546 2013-12-03 19:32:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Use questionnaire codes, copy-paste, etc
1547 2013-12-03 19:33:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Uh, what?
1548 2013-12-03 19:33:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|questionnaire?
1549 2013-12-03 19:33:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|wtf...
1550 2013-12-03 19:33:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I typed questionnaire codes
1551 2013-12-03 19:33:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|uh
1552 2013-12-03 19:33:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Q<deleteme>R
1553 2013-12-03 19:33:35 MobPhone has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1554 2013-12-03 19:33:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Aha
1555 2013-12-03 19:33:49 <v3ry3l33te> michagogo|cloud, well qr, but not everyone has it in their bitcoin billing page, for some funny reason.
1556 2013-12-03 19:33:50 Skav has joined
1557 2013-12-03 19:34:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, so this computer has typinator installed apparently
1558 2013-12-03 19:34:23 Alina-malina has joined
1559 2013-12-03 19:34:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|with q<deleteme>r set up as a shortcut to questionnaire
1560 2013-12-03 19:34:46 <quellhorst> is there a spec for bitcoin qr codes? like what values i can put in them
1561 2013-12-03 19:35:25 <v3ry3l33te> i'd really like to know what happened to aliases lol
1562 2013-12-03 19:35:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;bc,wiki bitcoin uri scheme
1563 2013-12-03 19:35:29 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/URI_Scheme | May 23, 2013 ... Graphical bitcoin clients SHOULD register themselves as the handler for the " bitcoin:" URI scheme by default, if no other handler is already ...
1564 2013-12-03 19:36:09 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
1565 2013-12-03 19:36:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|quellhorst: A bitcoin questionnaire code is just a regular questionnaire code encoding a bitcoin: URI
1566 2013-12-03 19:36:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Bah
1567 2013-12-03 19:36:27 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You know what I mean.
1568 2013-12-03 19:36:33 <quellhorst> lol
1569 2013-12-03 19:36:43 wallet431 has joined
1570 2013-12-03 19:37:03 zcopley has joined
1571 2013-12-03 19:37:18 cadaverr has joined
1572 2013-12-03 19:37:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, I turned that shortcut off
1573 2013-12-03 19:37:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Now I can type QR...
1574 2013-12-03 19:37:49 wallet432 has joined
1575 2013-12-03 19:38:03 <quellhorst> reminds me of the stuff the iphone would autocorrect
1576 2013-12-03 19:38:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Yeah
1577 2013-12-03 19:38:32 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But I guess my father uses the word questionnaire a lot
1578 2013-12-03 19:38:45 wallet433 has joined
1579 2013-12-03 19:38:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(and doesn't talk about qr codes? idk)
1580 2013-12-03 19:39:13 <quellhorst> you also talked a lot about questionnaires :)
1581 2013-12-03 19:39:38 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1582 2013-12-03 19:39:41 mynameis has joined
1583 2013-12-03 19:40:32 edulix has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1584 2013-12-03 19:40:52 wallet431 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1585 2013-12-03 19:40:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|quellhorst: No...
1586 2013-12-03 19:40:58 <v3ry3l33te> what if we sign email association using private key for this address.
1587 2013-12-03 19:41:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|v3ry3l33te: Nope
1588 2013-12-03 19:41:29 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You need to verify in the opposite direction
1589 2013-12-03 19:41:33 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1590 2013-12-03 19:42:00 Coincidental has joined
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1592 2013-12-03 19:43:35 edulix has joined
1593 2013-12-03 19:44:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I can sign a message with the privkey for the address 1TimbVA6AC8hKNpHihJx3LqhX8AfbuS35 saying "My email address is tcook@apple.com"
1594 2013-12-03 19:44:29 marijnfs has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1596 2013-12-03 19:44:48 Lifeofcray has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1597 2013-12-03 19:44:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But you need the opposite direction, a way to query "how do I send bitcoins to tcook@apple.com"
1598 2013-12-03 19:45:07 Lifeofcray has joined
1599 2013-12-03 19:45:13 <amiller> minor question, i just realized i don't know how the dns seeds are working
1600 2013-12-03 19:45:23 <amiller> i htink they're all running sipa's bitcoin-seeder program?
1601 2013-12-03 19:45:42 <amiller> when i repeatedly do dig -a to make a dns request, i see the same set of results, just rotated by one each time
1602 2013-12-03 19:45:49 <amiller> and every 20 seconds or so they're updated with fresh ones
1603 2013-12-03 19:46:06 <amiller> i had assumed instead that it was just a random sample each time from the big seeds.txt list
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1613 2013-12-03 19:57:30 <shesek> so, its out: https://www.bitrated.com/
1614 2013-12-03 19:57:43 <shesek> I'd love to hear what you think
1615 2013-12-03 19:58:11 <shesek> here's an active transaction page, to see how the interface looks:
1616 2013-12-03 19:58:13 <shesek> https://www.bitrated.com/tx.html#DO-NOT-SHARE=&alice=A%2F%2FmTJbIKmCfCtwjNr2wGHSZvqcVz3B5pIh6TURC8QBU&trent=A1q3Pcm7Cx43HqNJIU1C1X1pZ1cVL6H4vre5shcmZaL6&terms=VGVzdA%3D%3D&proof=H86uqO9NmCSsZ7FQ7mHyBAW3st7ec2cMQUxWwDD70eYlSJduRgFOPcwmsFiWK3BplIzPLgrqwoP%2BsUi7Ak%2B84%2B8%3D&bob_priv=7ZOtfT8RekIokMBEfeZ0%2BjQZ2tS91vG8FTFTnbuuCrUB
1617 2013-12-03 19:58:30 [\\\] has joined
1618 2013-12-03 19:58:40 <shesek> (also, I'd appreciate an upvote on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6842697 :)
1619 2013-12-03 19:59:27 <gmaxwell> shesek: very cool.
1620 2013-12-03 19:59:53 <gmaxwell> FWIW, to others in the room, I helped shesek QA this, it's neat and I think it works quite well.
1621 2013-12-03 20:00:18 sserrano44 has joined
1622 2013-12-03 20:00:19 <shesek> thanks :)
1623 2013-12-03 20:00:19 <gmaxwell> Including my never-used-bitcoin-before test subject had no major problems using it.
1624 2013-12-03 20:03:54 wallet43 has joined
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1627 2013-12-03 20:05:24 mynameis has quit (Client Quit)
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1632 2013-12-03 20:09:21 <andytoshi> nice
1633 2013-12-03 20:09:22 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1634 2013-12-03 20:09:32 <andytoshi> you should put up a warning that the site requires javascript
1635 2013-12-03 20:09:42 <andytoshi> (sorry for bikeshedding ;P)
1636 2013-12-03 20:10:12 <shesek> yeah, its probably a good idea to have a <noscript> that mentions that
1637 2013-12-03 20:10:13 haxar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1638 2013-12-03 20:10:20 <shesek> added to my todo list
1639 2013-12-03 20:11:08 <gigavps> shesek upvotes don't count on HN when ppl direct link to posts
1640 2013-12-03 20:11:38 <shesek> oh really? I didn't know that
1641 2013-12-03 20:11:40 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: My initial reaction to shesek was to whine about doing crypto in the browser. But I think the usability of this approach compensates somewhat for its security shortcomings. Multisig escrow in the browser is better than none at all— which is what we have today
1642 2013-12-03 20:12:36 Skav is now known as MobPhone
1643 2013-12-03 20:12:52 <andytoshi> yeah, definitely a good step forward for bitcoin
1644 2013-12-03 20:13:25 <andytoshi> and if there are better clients in the future, shesek's thing still provides a good directory of arbitrators
1645 2013-12-03 20:14:00 <shesek> oh oops
1646 2013-12-03 20:14:01 <andytoshi> also in the future we will see a lot more crypto being done in the browser, for better or worse
1647 2013-12-03 20:14:04 <shesek> I forgot to clean it up
1648 2013-12-03 20:14:11 <shesek> full of foobar and tests
1649 2013-12-03 20:14:11 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: right, I think ultimately wallets should integrate the functionality, but ... part of doing that is having some clue what a good workflow is for it.
1650 2013-12-03 20:14:12 <kjj> why is sensitive information going to end up in the URLs?
1651 2013-12-03 20:14:14 tych0 has joined
1652 2013-12-03 20:14:47 <hno> Hm.. what mining software would you recommend for mining on a private testnet for the purpose of evaluating a pool design? Hope to get it all running in a isolated VM.
1653 2013-12-03 20:15:10 <andytoshi> my thoughts exactly
1654 2013-12-03 20:16:05 akrmn2 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1655 2013-12-03 20:17:51 haxar has joined
1656 2013-12-03 20:18:04 <lysobit> Are the Bitcoin devs actively working on agreeing on a possible hard fork or solving the block limit problem?
1657 2013-12-03 20:18:05 elevatiO_n has quit ()
1658 2013-12-03 20:18:19 <kjj> problem?
1659 2013-12-03 20:18:21 <andytoshi> what is the block limit problem?
1660 2013-12-03 20:18:22 go1111111 has joined
1661 2013-12-03 20:18:34 filsilva has joined
1662 2013-12-03 20:18:59 <shesek> kjj, no information is stored on the server
1663 2013-12-03 20:19:03 <lysobit> You don't consider the 1MB limit to be a problem, if say, Bitcoin handles a transactional volume similar to Visa for example?
1664 2013-12-03 20:19:24 <kjj> oh, that problem.  the solution is easy.  don't believe everything you read on the forums
1665 2013-12-03 20:19:24 <shesek> storing it on the hash makes it easy to save a copy of everything in one go
1666 2013-12-03 20:19:30 phungi has joined
1667 2013-12-03 20:19:40 <lysobit> kjj: What's the solution?
1668 2013-12-03 20:19:43 <gmaxwell> lysobit: you seem to be doing this frequently, 14:48 < lysobit> So... any discussions about the blocksize limit? We just had a 878.98KB block
1669 2013-12-03 20:19:48 <shesek> and if someone gets access to your browser history, he could've just as easily gain access to your cookies/localStorage
1670 2013-12-03 20:19:54 <kjj> lysobit: don't believe everything you read on the forums
1671 2013-12-03 20:19:55 <lysobit> gmaxwell: I'm just genuinly interested/curious!
1672 2013-12-03 20:20:00 <lysobit> genuinely*
1673 2013-12-03 20:20:15 <lysobit> I do a lot of Googling, but not finding good answers
1674 2013-12-03 20:20:47 <lysobit> kjj: OK, you've said that twice now. What do you think it is that I should believe then regarding the block limit?
1675 2013-12-03 20:21:26 <kjj> hmm.  ok, maybe a better answer would be to think for yourself rather than looking for people to believe
1676 2013-12-03 20:21:30 phungi is now known as phungus
1677 2013-12-03 20:22:03 <andytoshi> lysobit: the short answer is that O(visa) numbers of transactions would never be done as raw bitcoin transactions
1678 2013-12-03 20:22:06 <lysobit> No, I'm just asking about what the current concensus within the development community is. That is not something I can figure out through telepathy.
1679 2013-12-03 20:22:11 <andytoshi> that would be the job of a higher-level system or network
1680 2013-12-03 20:22:20 Guest40446 has joined
1681 2013-12-03 20:22:44 <andytoshi> there is no consensus on what the optimal block size/rate should be, but the current system appears to be working
1682 2013-12-03 20:22:59 <andytoshi> and anything massively-scalable like you suggest would overload the systems of the people running the network
1683 2013-12-03 20:22:59 <lysobit> andytoshi: I saw this idea ("side-blockchains"?) but I don't think many agree with it / there seems to be a big divide in opinion
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1687 2013-12-03 20:25:09 <lysobit> andytoshi: wouldn't a "higher-level" network require something akin to PayPal, which somewhat defeats the purpose?
1688 2013-12-03 20:25:35 <lysobit> andytoshi: or would it still be a decentralized network?
1689 2013-12-03 20:29:02 Guest40446 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1690 2013-12-03 20:29:04 <kjj> why do you think it would be an "it" and not a "they"?
1691 2013-12-03 20:29:29 <Luke-Jr> cfields: your suggestion looks fine to me, but I'm not sure it's possible - isn't AC_SUBST always non-conditional in configure.ac?
1692 2013-12-03 20:29:36 <lysobit> kjj: I don't follow
1693 2013-12-03 20:30:35 <Luke-Jr> lysobit: the importance is that the currency be decentralised, much moreso than the trade of the currency
1694 2013-12-03 20:30:41 <kjj> lysobit: go learn how the check clearing system in the US works.
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1698 2013-12-03 20:31:07 <gmaxwell> lysobit: there are many ways to conduct payments in the bitcoin currency which produce fewer actual public transactions— some are centeralized, some are not. They have different advantages and disadvantages relative to each other and to bitcoin (e.g. beyond scaling, almost any other way of doing payments can get you instant (semi-)irreversability.
1699 2013-12-03 20:31:08 <Luke-Jr> lysobit: until we hit full blocks for a week straight, I'm not sure we have the information needed to make a good decision on block size
1700 2013-12-03 20:31:24 <Luke-Jr> (I'm open to being convinced I'm wrong - didn't gavinandresen say he'd do a writeup some months back..?)
1701 2013-12-03 20:31:46 <kjj> heh, he was talking about doing that at the conference, and I think before the conference too
1702 2013-12-03 20:32:53 <lysobit> Luke-Jr: I'm no expert on the Bitcoin network, but I get the impression that at the rate of adaption now, it might be an issue in the very forseeable future, and the technology to work around it (other than reducing the block size limit) is far from ready
1703 2013-12-03 20:33:25 <gmaxwell> lysobit: relative to centeralized systems- they have their place. They have certian efficiencies, including having vilable development funding models, and existing deployments that could help bitcoin adotion. A key point is that a world where some high volume low value txn use a payment network like visa but still backed by a cryptographically provable decenteralized cryptocurrency where you have _choice_ is still a better one than we ...
1704 2013-12-03 20:33:29 nomailing has joined
1705 2013-12-03 20:33:31 <gmaxwell> ... had before. And potentially a much better one than where you tried to overscale bitcoin, broke its decenteralization, and as a result had no choice at all.
1706 2013-12-03 20:33:48 <Luke-Jr> lysobit: right now, there is a lot of spammers, and miners are neglecting their duty to protect the blockchain from spam. so I don't think it's a near problem
1707 2013-12-03 20:34:12 <gmaxwell> lysobit: its already very likely the case that in sheer count _most_ bitcoin denominated transactions occure off the blockchain (inside varrious centeralized systems)
1708 2013-12-03 20:34:23 <kjj> I'm not sure that we'll have a good idea about the proper functioning of the mining system until after several more halvings
1709 2013-12-03 20:35:29 <lysobit> gmaxwell: I see. So we could invision a situation in the future where transactions fees are so high, that people are forced to use centralized systems to move smaller amounts of money -- I think that might cause people to lose confidence in Bitcoin
1710 2013-12-03 20:36:01 <kjj> lysobit: transactions have costs.  right now, we have no idea what those costs are.
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1713 2013-12-03 20:36:11 <lysobit> gmaxwell: unless, for some reason, people are persuaded to use centralized systems
1714 2013-12-03 20:36:30 <kjj> it may very well turn out that the natural cost of a transaction places them outside the reach of most people
1715 2013-12-03 20:36:47 <andytoshi> lysobit: there are decentralized ways to pass small amounts of money through bitcoin without individual transactions, e.g. nLockTime games or probablistic payments
1716 2013-12-03 20:36:58 <andytoshi> as gmaxwell said, there are many tradeoffs and many options
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1718 2013-12-03 20:38:00 <gmaxwell> centeralized systems are just one option, people should never be forced to use them unless the market picks them— and it may well.
1719 2013-12-03 20:38:20 <lysobit> right, OK
1720 2013-12-03 20:38:39 <lysobit> it is something that worries me
1721 2013-12-03 20:38:45 <kjj> man, "decentralized" tends to put strange ideas into peoples' heads
1722 2013-12-03 20:39:30 zcopley_ has joined
1723 2013-12-03 20:39:32 <lysobit> kjj: well, Bitcoin is a strange idea
1724 2013-12-03 20:39:53 <gmaxwell> My standard list is, micropayment channels, distributed chaum banks, tamper resistant hardware (othercoin; allows fully _offline_ txn), probablistic payments (for very low value things), centeralized systems (e.g. VISA itself), and more far out things that require some serious R&D work before we'll know they're viable (e.g. CoinWitness)
1725 2013-12-03 20:40:19 zcopley has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1727 2013-12-03 20:40:39 <kjj> in bitcoin, "decentralized" means "no one can stop you", not "everyone does it"
1728 2013-12-03 20:41:02 <lysobit> kjj, they are not mutually exclusive...
1729 2013-12-03 20:41:24 <kjj> true, but a failure of the second part doesn't mean that the whole thing is centralized
1730 2013-12-03 20:41:26 <lysobit> kjj, if you take one, you risk the possibility of removing the other...
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1732 2013-12-03 20:41:45 <Luke-Jr> lysobit: trustless/decentralised systems are inherently inefficient.
1733 2013-12-03 20:42:00 <hno> shesek, what stops the arbitrator from making his own transaction and covert either buyer or seller to sign it? Only the trust placed in the arbitrator, or anything at the protocol level?
1734 2013-12-03 20:42:11 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1735 2013-12-03 20:42:21 <kjj> consider mining.  most people aren't mining, and virtually no one is actually running a mining node.  yet, mining is still decentralized
1736 2013-12-03 20:42:22 <lysobit> gmaxwell, I wish more was written about those ideas in the list
1737 2013-12-03 20:42:41 <andytoshi> hno: if i understand correctly, the arbitrator needs to be trusted, both parties agree to the choice of arbitrator
1738 2013-12-03 20:42:57 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1739 2013-12-03 20:42:59 <shesek> hno, if the arbitrator and one of the parties are conspiring together, then yes, the other party is pretty much screwed
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1742 2013-12-03 20:43:22 <hno> shesek, was more considering the abitrator screwing both of them.
1743 2013-12-03 20:43:37 <kjj> can't
1744 2013-12-03 20:43:41 <gmaxwell> Right, there is an inherent inefficiency for our trustlessness. It's worth it— one of the advantages of bitcoin is that it facilitates building other things with good properties on top of it. The care required is that we do want to scale bitcoin directly as much as can safely be scaled. .. but no more, because scaling it too far would close down options, including the some of the options of having things with different properties built ...
1745 2013-12-03 20:43:47 <gmaxwell> ... on top of it.
1746 2013-12-03 20:43:56 <kjj> 2-of-3 means that the arbitrator can only screw one of them
1747 2013-12-03 20:44:06 <andytoshi> :)
1748 2013-12-03 20:44:12 <andytoshi> i like that definition
1749 2013-12-03 20:44:22 <gmaxwell> lysobit: all of these things have been written about at length in varrious places.
1750 2013-12-03 20:44:27 <kjj> or rather, the arbitrator needs the assistance of one of the parties to do anything
1751 2013-12-03 20:44:30 <lysobit> ah, right
1752 2013-12-03 20:44:41 <gmaxwell> lysobit: I'm not coming up with all these ideas on my own. :)
1753 2013-12-03 20:45:15 <hno> I am fine with the only restriction being the level of trust the parties place in the arbiter and their ability to verify transactions before signing. Just wondering if there was anything more to it as FAQ has quite strong wording that the arbitrator can't do anything with the deposited value.
1754 2013-12-03 20:45:48 <lysobit> gmaxwell: the problem is how soon we might see one being implemented. I genuinely believe that it's an urgent problem given the current rate of adoption
1755 2013-12-03 20:46:01 <andytoshi> hno: the transaction requires two signatures -- the arbitrator is welcome to suggest a "screw both of you" transaction, but he won't get a second signature..
1756 2013-12-03 20:46:03 digitalmagus2 has joined
1757 2013-12-03 20:46:14 <gmaxwell> hno: I'm not sure what your confusion is. The arbitrator can't do anything with the deposited value without the help of at least one of the parties.
1758 2013-12-03 20:46:41 <hno> gmaxwell, there is no confusion.
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1760 2013-12-03 20:46:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is there an easy way, given a pywallet dump of an encrypted wallet.dat (without the satoshi client), to recover a privkey for a given address?
1761 2013-12-03 20:47:13 COGSMITH has joined
1762 2013-12-03 20:47:16 <gmaxwell> Any release from the multisig-escrow requires two signatures with keys from the set {PartyA, PartyB, Arb}, as enforced by the entire bitcoin network.
1763 2013-12-03 20:47:20 <andytoshi> hno: are you asking, what happens when no pair of the three parties agrees?
1764 2013-12-03 20:47:32 <lysobit> michagogo|cloud: heat sink the entire universe into your CPU, and brute force the private keys ;-)
1765 2013-12-03 20:47:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|lysobit: passphrase is known
1766 2013-12-03 20:47:52 <lysobit> michagogo|cloud: oh, right
1767 2013-12-03 20:48:13 <hno> no. I was asking about the specific wording "The arbitrator can only approve a transaction that is signed by either the buyer or the seller, and cannot control the funds otherwise." which kind of implies that the arbitrator can not propose a transaction.
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1770 2013-12-03 20:49:01 <hno> which felt odd, with nothing in bitcoin stopping the arbitrator from doing so.
1771 2013-12-03 20:49:01 <andytoshi> well, to propose a transaction the arbitrator would have to go outside what the site enables him to do, and he'd be rejected anyway
1772 2013-12-03 20:49:13 mappum has joined
1773 2013-12-03 20:49:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hno: As I understand it, in this implementation, the arbitrator doesn't necessarily know that the transaction exists
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1775 2013-12-03 20:49:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Until one of the parties turns to him
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1777 2013-12-03 20:50:49 <shesek> andytoshi, it does allow to propose transactions, if he's given the link
1778 2013-12-03 20:51:05 <shesek> but I don't think proposing a transactions falls under "control the funds"
1779 2013-12-03 20:51:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: Well, I guess it could be read as implying that a transaction needs to be initiated by one of the parties
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1781 2013-12-03 20:52:57 <hno> shesek, it doesn't. It's just a technicality on the wording used.
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1783 2013-12-03 20:54:04 <hno> just change it to say that arbitrator and at least one of the parties need to agree to release funds.
1784 2013-12-03 20:54:19 <hno> or something like that.
1785 2013-12-03 20:54:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does anyone know where I could find details on how the wallet encryption works, and how one can recover privkeys from a dump of the wallet (with the passphrase known)?
1786 2013-12-03 20:54:26 agnostic98 has joined
1787 2013-12-03 20:54:58 <hno> michagogo|cloud, google, first hit: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_encryption
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1792 2013-12-03 20:55:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hno: That's just the general process
1793 2013-12-03 20:56:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Not the second part of my question
1794 2013-12-03 20:57:50 <hno> second part is same as you would do if the wallet was no envrypted.
1795 2013-12-03 20:57:57 sserrano44 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1796 2013-12-03 20:58:27 <shesek> so, its #3 on HN
1797 2013-12-03 20:58:33 <shesek> but not gaining much traction on reddit
1798 2013-12-03 20:59:13 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1799 2013-12-03 20:59:16 <andytoshi> shesek: give it time, this is something people actually ask about around here
1800 2013-12-03 21:00:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|hno: the question is "given an encrypted privkey, the passphrase, and a master key block, how can the unencrypted key be recovered"?
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1809 2013-12-03 21:07:12 <hno> By first recovering the encrypted keys, and then decrypting them with the known key. Which boils down to recovering data from the BDB archive.
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1823 2013-12-03 21:14:09 <DonnchaC> shesek: Nice work! I was planning to create something similar but you beat me too it :)
1824 2013-12-03 21:14:22 patcon has joined
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1826 2013-12-03 21:14:33 <DonnchaC> When I check the site I'm getting an error trying to load most of the .js files.
1827 2013-12-03 21:14:46 <DonnchaC> For example: https://www.bitrated.com/tx/new.js 404 (Not Found)
1828 2013-12-03 21:15:15 haxar has joined
1829 2013-12-03 21:15:37 <shesek> really? oO that's really bad
1830 2013-12-03 21:15:53 <shesek> oh, crap
1831 2013-12-03 21:16:06 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|http://testnet.bitrated.com/new.html appears to be borked
1832 2013-12-03 21:16:26 <CodeShark> I know this is not altcoin-dev, but perchance, have any of you experienced any problems making inbound connections with some of the bitcoin forks out there?
1833 2013-12-03 21:16:59 <shesek> yeah, I did something that removed all the .js files :O
1834 2013-12-03 21:17:02 <shesek> fixing it right now
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1839 2013-12-03 21:22:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: Oops. :-P
1840 2013-12-03 21:23:09 <cfields> Luna: hmm? what's to AC_SUBST ?
1841 2013-12-03 21:23:55 p8q has joined
1842 2013-12-03 21:24:16 <cfields> grr. that was for Luke-Jr. 2nd strike for tab-complete today.
1843 2013-12-03 21:24:32 wrabbit has quit (Quit: .)
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1847 2013-12-03 21:26:23 <DonnchaC> shesk: all's good now. Thanks!
1848 2013-12-03 21:29:21 zcopley_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1849 2013-12-03 21:29:28 <Luke-Jr> cfields: AC_SUBST on the leveldb vars
1850 2013-12-03 21:30:35 <cfields> Luke-Jr: no need, they'll be added to LIBS
1851 2013-12-03 21:31:00 <Luke-Jr> cfields: bitcoin-cli doesn't use leveldb, does it?
1852 2013-12-03 21:31:43 * andytoshi just discovered that he has tab-complete
1853 2013-12-03 21:31:47 <andytoshi> thx cfields
1854 2013-12-03 21:32:24 Applicat_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1855 2013-12-03 21:32:49 <cfields> ok, in that case, yea,  you can use the TEMP_LIBS reset trick and AC_SUBST it. no matter if it's empty. Just add $(LEVELDB_LIBS) to the link-line, and if there are none, there will be no effect
1856 2013-12-03 21:33:02 <cfields> andytoshi: heh, np
1857 2013-12-03 21:33:08 <cfields> wumpus: ping
1858 2013-12-03 21:34:22 wrabbit has joined
1859 2013-12-03 21:34:43 <Luke-Jr> cfields: ok, I'll try to figure something out like that which works..
1860 2013-12-03 21:37:57 <shesek> what's the appropriate forum to announce projects at bitcointalk?
1861 2013-12-03 21:38:56 <cfields> Luke-Jr: i'd like to stake my claim to the deterministic dmg bounty. It meets the given requirements.
1862 2013-12-03 21:39:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;ticker --market all
1863 2013-12-03 21:39:21 <gribble> MtGox BTCUSD last: 1147.90499, vol: 20426.80801595 | Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1055.0, vol: 13872.82699077 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 999.99, vol: 16211.6107 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1055.0698, vol: 2491.29012056 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 982.0, vol: 133.29915876 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1090.1163, vol: 63204.66400000 | Volume-weighted last average: 1082.64221156
1864 2013-12-03 21:39:22 <Luke-Jr> cfields: oh, it's done? :D
1865 2013-12-03 21:39:29 <Luke-Jr> cfields: what do I need to do to test it?
1866 2013-12-03 21:39:43 <cfields> Luke-Jr: it was done a week ago. just no one seems to feel like trying it out :)
1867 2013-12-03 21:39:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shesek: perhaps https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=84.0 ?
1868 2013-12-03 21:40:39 <Luke-Jr> cfields: is there a pullreq?
1869 2013-12-03 21:41:38 <cfields> Luke-Jr: no. i'm just getting back around to it, cleaning it up a bit before a pullreq. But it works as-is atm
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1872 2013-12-03 21:42:09 <cfields> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/tree/deterministic-dmg
1873 2013-12-03 21:42:50 <Luke-Jr> k, lemme redo this autoconf_pt3 thing and I'll test it
1874 2013-12-03 21:43:47 <cfields> Luke-Jr: to test, you'll need a gitian x86 precise image and the osx sdk. I can send you the sdk to save you the time/trouble if you'd like. It's been verified here: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/8a64fb98370ccc299d73111bbf97cdde23f681b1#commitcomment-4708754
1875 2013-12-03 21:44:15 <Luke-Jr> cfields: not amd64?
1876 2013-12-03 21:44:16 <cfields> as part of the cleanup I'll be moving x86 precise -> x64 precise, since win32 already uses that.
1877 2013-12-03 21:44:21 <Luke-Jr> ah
1878 2013-12-03 21:44:33 <Luke-Jr> x86_64*
1879 2013-12-03 21:44:39 <cfields> heh, of course
1880 2013-12-03 21:44:46 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|can't seem to find anything about the deterministic dmg bounty with a couple mins of googling
1881 2013-12-03 21:44:54 <cfields> Luke-Jr: one of the snags is that apple's binutils must be built x86
1882 2013-12-03 21:45:01 haxar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1883 2013-12-03 21:45:13 <Luke-Jr> cfields: ew? so multilib?
1884 2013-12-03 21:45:14 <cfields> so i started there to save myself the trouble. But it works fine on amd64 as well, all the -m32 flags are in place
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1887 2013-12-03 21:46:09 <cfields> Luke-Jr: no, all necessary x86 flavors are built to avoid multilib
1888 2013-12-03 21:47:17 <Luke-Jr> x86_32 on a x86_64 system is multilib :P
1889 2013-12-03 21:47:22 <shesek> michagogo|cloud, thanks
1890 2013-12-03 21:47:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(note, I'm not very familiar with the forum, that might not be the right place)
1891 2013-12-03 21:48:30 Starduster has joined
1892 2013-12-03 21:48:34 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: the forum isn't really used for serious stuff anymore
1893 2013-12-03 21:48:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|ik
1894 2013-12-03 21:49:07 <cfields> Luke-Jr: multilib is usually used to designate a usr/lib/xyz prefix, where multiple toolchains can coexist
1895 2013-12-03 21:49:40 <Luke-Jr> not since amd64 was announced >_<
1896 2013-12-03 21:49:41 <cfields> this isn't done that way, the libs are built manually and stashed into a staging dir
1897 2013-12-03 21:49:48 <cfields> huh?
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1900 2013-12-03 21:51:29 <cfields> Luke-Jr: for example on my system i've got: /usr/arm-linux-gnueabi, /usr/i686-w64-mingw32, etc. Those are in place so that their host compilers can find them rather than finding native libs
1901 2013-12-03 21:51:33 <Luke-Jr> multilib since amd64 has meant /usr/lib32 and /usr/lib64
1902 2013-12-03 21:51:59 <cfields> that's not multilib, that was a quick distro reaction+confusion.
1903 2013-12-03 21:52:09 <cfields> not everything revolves around the x86 world, you know :)
1904 2013-12-03 21:53:55 <cfields> many distros even used fun symlinks between lib/lib32/lib64. That was brilliant and worked about as well as you'd expect :)
1905 2013-12-03 21:54:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: Are all the files in gitian-osx-native.yml part of the SDK?
1906 2013-12-03 21:54:03 Nesetalis has joined
1907 2013-12-03 21:54:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|erm, not all*
1908 2013-12-03 21:54:19 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: only the pkg
1909 2013-12-03 21:54:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What's that first one?
1910 2013-12-03 21:54:49 <Luke-Jr> cfields: quick or not, that's what multilib is today :P
1911 2013-12-03 21:54:56 Grouver has joined
1912 2013-12-03 21:54:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Seems to be named with a hash or something?
1913 2013-12-03 21:55:51 <cfields> Luke-Jr: heh, i'll spare my sanity and avoid semantics discussions with you :)
1914 2013-12-03 21:55:57 SwampTony has joined
1915 2013-12-03 21:56:06 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: hmm?
1916 2013-12-03 21:56:11 Application has joined
1917 2013-12-03 21:56:17 cadaverr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1918 2013-12-03 21:56:19 * Luke-Jr wonders if there's some distro that does multilib with longer libdir names like that
1919 2013-12-03 21:56:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|+- "10cc648683617cca8bcbeae507888099b41b530c.tar.gz"
1920 2013-12-03 21:56:48 <wumpus> cfields: pong
1921 2013-12-03 21:57:02 <AdrianG> hi luke
1922 2013-12-03 21:57:11 <cfields> Luke-Jr: sure, check in your /usr/lib/. I bet you'll find most of your stuff lives in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/
1923 2013-12-03 21:57:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: 10cc648683617cca8bcbeae507888099b41b530c.tar.gz
1924 2013-12-03 21:57:37 wei__ has quit (Quit: wei__)
1925 2013-12-03 21:57:42 <Luke-Jr> cfields: on the contrary, that subdirectory doesn't even exist
1926 2013-12-03 21:57:48 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: ah, that's a github hash. There's no tag for that repo, so rather than requiring a git clone, i grabbed a tarball of the commit
1927 2013-12-03 21:57:50 <Luke-Jr> although I don't run multilib ;)
1928 2013-12-03 21:57:53 Krellan_ has joined
1929 2013-12-03 21:58:01 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1930 2013-12-03 21:58:07 <Luke-Jr> I did recently try a multilib system, though, and it used /usr/lib64 and /usr/libx32
1931 2013-12-03 21:58:08 debiantoruser has joined
1932 2013-12-03 21:58:26 groglogic has joined
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1934 2013-12-03 21:58:53 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: i added a quick+dirty download script to save the trouble of sourcing them all: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/blob/deterministic-dmg/contrib/macdepends/download.sh
1935 2013-12-03 21:58:54 <Luke-Jr> cfields: $(LIBLEVELDB): $(LIBMEMENV)  \n  $(LIBLEVELDB) $(LIBMEMENV): <-- do you know this works for sure, or do I need to test it?
1936 2013-12-03 21:59:11 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: Yeah, just found that using ctrl-f and 10cc648683617cca8bcbeae507888099b41b530c.tar.gz
1937 2013-12-03 21:59:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm, mingwandroid?
1938 2013-12-03 21:59:40 <AdrianG> Luke-Jr: are you familiar with mastercoin
1939 2013-12-03 21:59:53 <AdrianG> damn i think luke still has me on ignore or something
1940 2013-12-03 21:59:56 <Luke-Jr> AdrianG: no.
1941 2013-12-03 21:59:58 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: i assume the owner works with toolchains in general
1942 2013-12-03 22:00:14 saulimus has joined
1943 2013-12-03 22:00:15 <cfields> Luke-Jr: i gave it a quick test, should work. Verify first though ofc.
1944 2013-12-03 22:00:25 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1945 2013-12-03 22:00:25 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1946 2013-12-03 22:00:35 <Luke-Jr> cfields: hard to verify race things
1947 2013-12-03 22:00:41 <cfields> Luke-Jr: Also, if you look at it before your change, that's how it worked. Just swap in the variables.
1948 2013-12-03 22:00:42 handle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1949 2013-12-03 22:00:53 <Luke-Jr> before, it duplicated the build code
1950 2013-12-03 22:01:08 <cfields> Luke-Jr: well it's not a race anymore. You're making one depend directly on the other.
1951 2013-12-03 22:01:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: So contrib/macdepends/download.sh is to be run from within the inputs folder within the gitian-builder folder?
1952 2013-12-03 22:01:20 <Luke-Jr> or not
1953 2013-12-03 22:02:23 brson has joined
1954 2013-12-03 22:02:33 watertight has joined
1955 2013-12-03 22:02:36 <cfields> Luke-Jr: heh, if you really want to confirm, swap out the build command with some echoes. Or use make -d. You can't verify who wins a race, but you can ensure that the race never starts...
1956 2013-12-03 22:02:51 hemry has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1957 2013-12-03 22:03:05 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: inputs, i suppose. I designed it to work without gitian, then shoved it into gitian later.
1958 2013-12-03 22:03:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, interesting
1959 2013-12-03 22:03:29 <cfields> so if you don't feel like using gitian, it'll work native.
1960 2013-12-03 22:03:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I guess I've been thinking about this from the perspective of gitian all along
1961 2013-12-03 22:03:50 i2pRelay has joined
1962 2013-12-03 22:03:57 gesell has joined
1963 2013-12-03 22:03:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Wait, you have it deterministic without gitian?
1964 2013-12-03 22:04:00 wei__ has joined
1965 2013-12-03 22:04:20 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1966 2013-12-03 22:04:22 <gesell> i'd like to play with multisignature transactions. is there some code around, one of the libs?
1967 2013-12-03 22:04:25 <cfields> should be, if you add in some faketimes
1968 2013-12-03 22:04:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Isn't determinism the whole point of this?
1969 2013-12-03 22:04:57 Neozonz has joined
1970 2013-12-03 22:04:57 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@135-23-85-190.cpe.pppoe.ca|Changing host)
1971 2013-12-03 22:04:57 Neozonz has joined
1972 2013-12-03 22:05:35 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: yea. and since people will want to verify determinism with gitian so they can sign, i didn't bother to check it outside of it
1973 2013-12-03 22:05:50 RoboTeddy has joined
1974 2013-12-03 22:06:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|+1. Use Acquire the SDK. See the note in download.sh for more info.
1975 2013-12-03 22:06:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Extra word there?
1976 2013-12-03 22:06:28 <cfields> heh, indeed. Pick one :)
1977 2013-12-03 22:06:33 justusranvier has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1978 2013-12-03 22:06:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'd s/Use //
1979 2013-12-03 22:06:59 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: are you interested in building? I can send you the pkg if so
1980 2013-12-03 22:07:13 monkeynipples has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1981 2013-12-03 22:07:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I would be, except that my computer's currently off being repaired
1982 2013-12-03 22:07:32 <cfields> ok
1983 2013-12-03 22:07:37 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1984 2013-12-03 22:07:46 wallet431 has joined
1985 2013-12-03 22:08:44 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(well, sitting at the lab not yet being repaired because of a bureaucratic issue)
1986 2013-12-03 22:08:57 justusranvier has joined
1987 2013-12-03 22:09:20 <cfields> wumpus: still around?
1988 2013-12-03 22:09:33 <wumpus> cfields: yes
1989 2013-12-03 22:09:41 pablog has joined
1990 2013-12-03 22:10:03 wallet43 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1991 2013-12-03 22:10:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Interesting, you have the checksum verification in contrib/macdepends/download.sh?
1992 2013-12-03 22:10:11 RoboTeddy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1993 2013-12-03 22:10:29 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1994 2013-12-03 22:10:29 BitCoroner has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1995 2013-12-03 22:10:30 RoboTeddy has joined
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1998 2013-12-03 22:10:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|IIRC, the win32 builds do that in the descriptor itself
1999 2013-12-03 22:10:58 ThomasV has joined
2000 2013-12-03 22:11:11 <cfields> wumpus: i'd really rather not keep adding new helper libs, that's really not how it's designed to work. What do you think about me making some changes to #3332 as well?
2001 2013-12-03 22:11:22 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: yea, that's on my list for cleanup
2002 2013-12-03 22:11:28 BitCoroner has joined
2003 2013-12-03 22:11:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also: why no checksum for MacOSX10.6.pkg?
2004 2013-12-03 22:11:55 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: again, i wrote it for use outside of gitian. So that it can also be used by pulltester and etc
2005 2013-12-03 22:11:56 <wumpus> cfields: I don't mind, but I think it's better to go for functionality first and worry about cleanups later
2006 2013-12-03 22:13:14 <wumpus> cfields: it's very subjective anyway, I don't see how the helper libs are a problem, they group files in a unit
2007 2013-12-03 22:13:39 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: mm, it's there somewhere. Maybe in the gitian descriptor?
2008 2013-12-03 22:14:44 <wumpus> cfields: for example bitcoind for now needs to link both the cli and server lib, this will change when cli functionality is deprecated/removed from it
2009 2013-12-03 22:14:57 <wumpus> cfields: the gui always needs to link both, because it acts as both a server and client
2010 2013-12-03 22:15:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/blob/8a64fb98370ccc299d73111bbf97cdde23f681b1/contrib/macdeploy/DS_Store
2011 2013-12-03 22:15:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I thought it was .DS_Store?
2012 2013-12-03 22:15:57 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: it's renamed to .DS_Store when moved into position. Otherwise it confuses tools.
2013 2013-12-03 22:16:03 diki has joined
2014 2013-12-03 22:16:07 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
2015 2013-12-03 22:16:11 hodor83 has joined
2016 2013-12-03 22:16:26 diki is now known as Guest39750
2017 2013-12-03 22:17:42 <cfields> wumpus: Then that's general-purpose stuff that should be contained in the helper lib.
2018 2013-12-03 22:17:59 Guest25242 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2019 2013-12-03 22:18:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Heh, I'm actually on a Mac now -- I'm usually not
2020 2013-12-03 22:18:11 <wumpus> cfields: that's what I did right?
2021 2013-12-03 22:18:18 <cfields> When that's deprecated, the objects can be removed from the lib and added to the respective binaries
2022 2013-12-03 22:18:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|May as well take the opportunity to grab the pkg and stick it on my flash drive
2023 2013-12-03 22:18:43 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: sure, another verifier would be helpful too.
2024 2013-12-03 22:18:52 <wumpus> cfields: I don't want to remove objects from the lib.. the lib can stay the same, we can just stop linking it against the executable
2025 2013-12-03 22:19:06 <wumpus> cfields: it's more modular that way
2026 2013-12-03 22:19:27 <wumpus> I don't want everything in a single libbitcoin.a
2027 2013-12-03 22:20:03 <cfields> wumpus: i'll wait til your PR goes in, then rearrange and PR. It'll be easier to discuss when I can point to something.
2028 2013-12-03 22:20:24 <wumpus> I have the feeling that you're just misunderstanding what I'm trying to do
2029 2013-12-03 22:20:36 <cfields> not at all, I'm objecting to the premise behind it
2030 2013-12-03 22:20:38 nOgAnOo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2031 2013-12-03 22:20:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: BTW, another thing if it's not already on the list: go through the doc folder and add whatever references to the mac build are necessary (release-process.md and its gitian instructions comes to mind)
2032 2013-12-03 22:20:50 <wumpus> why?
2033 2013-12-03 22:21:16 <wumpus> what intermediate libs would you use?
2034 2013-12-03 22:21:22 <cfields> wumpus: because you're creating libs specific to binaries. That makes no sense. It should either be stuff that's common, or stuff that's in a lib.
2035 2013-12-03 22:21:31 <cfields> *in a binary
2036 2013-12-03 22:21:31 <wumpus> no, I'm not creating libs specific to binaries
2037 2013-12-03 22:22:01 <wumpus> libbitcoin_common -> used by bitcoin-cli and bitcoind
2038 2013-12-03 22:22:13 <wumpus> libbitcoin_cli -> used by bitcoin-cli and bitcoind (for now)
2039 2013-12-03 22:22:25 <wumpus> libbitcoin_server -> used by bitcoind
2040 2013-12-03 22:22:38 <wumpus> all three are used by the gui
2041 2013-12-03 22:22:57 <wumpus> so every library is used by at least two executables
2042 2013-12-03 22:23:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: is http://adcdownload.apple.com/Developer_Tools/xcode_3.2.6_and_ios_sdk_4.3__final/xcode_3.2.6_and_ios_sdk_4.3.dmg the correct download?
2043 2013-12-03 22:23:17 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: yep
2044 2013-12-03 22:23:19 Krellan__ has joined
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2046 2013-12-03 22:23:57 <cfields> wumpus: yes, that makes no sense. libbitcoin_common is used by cli/bitcoind/bitcoin-qt. so that may as well just be in libbitcoin.a
2047 2013-12-03 22:24:14 <cfields> libbitcoin_cli: any object that are specific to cli should be linked directly by the binary
2048 2013-12-03 22:24:27 <cfields> libbitcoin_server: same. If only bitcoind uses it, link it with bitcoind
2049 2013-12-03 22:24:29 <wumpus> cfields: there is no libbitcoin.a anymore in my pull, its now called libbitcoin_common.a
2050 2013-12-03 22:24:38 <wumpus> NO, because the CLI stuff is also used by the gui
2051 2013-12-03 22:24:45 <wumpus> it is shared!
2052 2013-12-03 22:24:45 COGSMITH has quit (Quit: .)
2053 2013-12-03 22:25:00 <cfields> ...then that's not cli?
2054 2013-12-03 22:25:01 hodor83 has left ()
2055 2013-12-03 22:25:08 <wumpus> libbitcoin_server is used by bitcoind *and the gui*
2056 2013-12-03 22:25:10 <wumpus> man...
2057 2013-12-03 22:25:18 Krellan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2058 2013-12-03 22:25:21 <gavinandresen> the GUI has a CLI built in....
2059 2013-12-03 22:25:25 <wumpus> yes
2060 2013-12-03 22:25:28 <gavinandresen> … nothing weird about that....
2061 2013-12-03 22:26:41 nOgAnOo has joined
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2063 2013-12-03 22:27:26 <cfields> wumpus: i won't argue anymore until your PR goes in and I've changed as I see fit and PR'd. As usual, if you and the others don't agree with me, -1 it and i'll drop it.
2064 2013-12-03 22:27:37 <wumpus> cfields: in any case, I'm fine with proposals to do things neater once everything is merged, but please wait for that first instead of assuming I'm doing nonsense
2065 2013-12-03 22:28:14 random_cat has joined
2066 2013-12-03 22:28:41 <gavinandresen> wumpus: RE a config option for -DDEBUG_LOCKORDER:  I dunno, DEBUG_LOCKORDER is a pretty obscure setting....
2067 2013-12-03 22:28:46 <cfields> wumpus: i didn't assume that, i apologize if I've insulted you. I assumed it was done that way because otherwise it would've taken more refactoring, so I volunteered to do that refactoring
2068 2013-12-03 22:28:48 nOgAnOo has joined
2069 2013-12-03 22:30:10 <wumpus> gavinandresen: it is, but if it can be useful to people it may be good to document it and make it an option, otherwise my experience is that people will do duplicate work like re-implementing it before they realize it's already there
2070 2013-12-03 22:30:32 monkeynipples has joined
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2072 2013-12-03 22:30:32 monkeynipples has joined
2073 2013-12-03 22:31:10 <wumpus> cfields: right, no offence taken, thanks for trying to help
2074 2013-12-03 22:32:02 dcposch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2075 2013-12-03 22:32:10 <gavinandresen> wumpus: ok, I don't care one way or the other about Yet Another Config Option.
2076 2013-12-03 22:32:52 jMyles has joined
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2078 2013-12-03 22:34:20 <wumpus> cfields: and you're indeed right, the split could have been cleaner by moving more code around, but I'm trying to do it in small steps and not for example split up util.cpp yet which would be a can of worms in itself
2079 2013-12-03 22:35:24 <cfields> wumpus: understood.
2080 2013-12-03 22:36:33 farmanimal has joined
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2083 2013-12-03 22:37:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: how big is the pkg?
2084 2013-12-03 22:37:28 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: ~50mb iirc
2085 2013-12-03 22:37:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay
2086 2013-12-03 22:37:39 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: but the dmg is tons of fun, several gb
2087 2013-12-03 22:37:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo| (just wanted to know which storage device to get out)
2088 2013-12-03 22:37:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: yeah, 4.1
2089 2013-12-03 22:38:25 soheil has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2090 2013-12-03 22:38:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|BTW, I'm an idiot -- the checksum for the pkg is in download.sh
2091 2013-12-03 22:38:46 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: that's why i keep offering to send out the pkg to those who want it. But ofc, that assumes you can trust the hash I present. So, the more people that verify my hash, the easier it will be to just send out that file
2092 2013-12-03 22:38:54 zcopley_ has joined
2093 2013-12-03 22:39:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It's just before all the wgets and not with the rest of the checksums
2094 2013-12-03 22:39:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: It's just shaky, legally :-/
2095 2013-12-03 22:39:57 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: maybe a little. But since everyone can acquire it freely, I'm not concerned about it
2096 2013-12-03 22:40:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Also, d'you want a signature on that hash?
2097 2013-12-03 22:40:18 <cfields> on the dmg?
2098 2013-12-03 22:40:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|the pkg
2099 2013-12-03 22:40:33 <cfields> oh, sure
2100 2013-12-03 22:40:52 zcopley_ is now known as zcopley
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2103 2013-12-03 22:41:23 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I'll do that once I'm back on my computer
2104 2013-12-03 22:41:25 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2105 2013-12-03 22:41:47 <cfields> gavinandresen: btw if you didn't see, osx builds fine with a downloaded qt5 and my autotools update. I'm looking into the best way for us to build from source.
2106 2013-12-03 22:42:00 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: great, thanks
2107 2013-12-03 22:42:16 <wumpus> cfields: yes, nice work on the qt5 build
2108 2013-12-03 22:42:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you have a preferred format for the message, just let me know
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2111 2013-12-03 22:43:43 <cfields> wumpus: thanks
2112 2013-12-03 22:44:04 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: not really, whatever's convenient
2113 2013-12-03 22:48:18 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2114 2013-12-03 22:49:29 <Luke-Jr> cfields: is this what you had in mind? https://github.com/luke-jr/bitcoin/commit/8d66ef412ddcba71b12a35c1aba5a8a58daec6b6
2115 2013-12-03 22:50:39 groglogic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2117 2013-12-03 22:53:49 wei__ has quit (Quit: wei__)
2118 2013-12-03 22:55:15 <cfields> Luke-Jr: why adding dependencies for a helper lib?
2119 2013-12-03 22:56:34 <cfields> (Makefile.am:44)
2120 2013-12-03 22:56:43 SwampTony has joined
2121 2013-12-03 22:57:17 <Luke-Jr> cfields: it doesn't get pulled in otherwise
2122 2013-12-03 22:57:47 <cfields> into what?
2123 2013-12-03 22:57:59 <Luke-Jr> make's dependency graph
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2125 2013-12-03 22:58:44 <cfields> adding it to bitcoind_LDADD is enough.
2126 2013-12-03 22:58:59 <cfields> you also need it in bitcoin_cli_LDADD though.
2127 2013-12-03 22:59:11 <cfields> er, nm
2128 2013-12-03 22:59:28 <Luke-Jr> it wasn't when I was testing
2129 2013-12-03 22:59:30 Grouver has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it)
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2132 2013-12-03 23:00:53 <cfields> Luke-Jr: well, a lib depending on a lib is not correct, and adding _DEPENDENCIES manually disables some automatic dependency handling.
2133 2013-12-03 23:00:59 <cfields> i can help you track it down if you'd like
2134 2013-12-03 23:01:00 <rweichler> hey
2135 2013-12-03 23:01:06 <rweichler> so im trying to use an offline wallet to sign a transaction
2136 2013-12-03 23:01:07 <rweichler> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/signdemo.txt
2137 2013-12-03 23:01:11 <rweichler> that tutorial ^
2138 2013-12-03 23:01:18 SwampTony has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2139 2013-12-03 23:01:21 <Luke-Jr> cfields: that's why it's EXTRA_ (that doesn't disable anything)
2140 2013-12-03 23:01:33 <rweichler> and it says to use the scriptpubkey field from bitcoind getrawtransaction
2141 2013-12-03 23:01:40 <rweichler> but when i do bitcoind getrawtransaction, there is no scriptpubkey
2142 2013-12-03 23:01:48 <rweichler> well, i mean, there is
2143 2013-12-03 23:02:04 <rweichler> but the only fields are asm, reqSigs, type, and addresses
2144 2013-12-03 23:02:06 <rweichler> there's no hex
2145 2013-12-03 23:02:12 <rweichler> and the tutorial says to use the hex field.
2146 2013-12-03 23:02:15 <Luke-Jr> cfields: and libs depend on libs is pretty common.. O.o
2147 2013-12-03 23:02:25 wallet431 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2148 2013-12-03 23:02:49 <rweichler> did i do something wrong, or is that tutorial outdated or what?
2149 2013-12-03 23:03:28 <Luke-Jr> cfields: want to poke at that while I test your mac stuff? ☺
2150 2013-12-03 23:03:44 <cfields> Luke-Jr: not internal libs for dependency resolution.
2151 2013-12-03 23:03:48 <cfields> heh sure, let's trade
2152 2013-12-03 23:04:16 <cfields> Luke-Jr: otherwise, yes, that's pretty much what i had in mind
2153 2013-12-03 23:04:26 <Luke-Jr> k
2154 2013-12-03 23:06:14 <Luke-Jr> cfields: that's a lot of patches! do you plan to move those to a generic cross-osx repository or such?
2155 2013-12-03 23:06:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|haha
2156 2013-12-03 23:06:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It seems like Michagogo is—or should be—friends with Luke-Jr. With this in mind, it's worth noting that Luke-Jr has a more consistent weekly schedule. There is also an obvious connection between Michagogo and Pieter Wuille, Gavin Andresen, Warren Togami, and Matt Corallo.
2157 2013-12-03 23:07:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(http://osrc.dfm.io/michagogo)
2158 2013-12-03 23:07:18 zcopley has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2159 2013-12-03 23:07:18 <cfields> Luke-Jr: gavin advised that i pull from various sources when possible.
2160 2013-12-03 23:07:32 <cfields> Luke-Jr: so i'll be splitting them between what we pull from upstreams, and what i've added myself
2161 2013-12-03 23:08:23 <cfields> Luke-Jr: for qt, most of the patches probably aren't needed, but i used most of them anywy to avoid breaking the chain of patches
2162 2013-12-03 23:08:27 <rweichler> please respond :(
2163 2013-12-03 23:08:34 <Luke-Jr> cfields: for background, I do plan to use this stuff for other software if possible, hence the desire for clean separation
2164 2013-12-03 23:09:22 agorist has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2165 2013-12-03 23:09:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rweichler: What are you trying to do?
2166 2013-12-03 23:09:46 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2167 2013-12-03 23:10:33 jpentland has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2168 2013-12-03 23:10:51 <rweichler> michagogo|cloud: following this tutorial
2169 2013-12-03 23:10:52 <rweichler> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/signdemo.txt
2170 2013-12-03 23:11:06 <rweichler> says to do bitcoind getrawtransaction
2171 2013-12-03 23:11:26 <rweichler> and get scriptPubKey.hex
2172 2013-12-03 23:11:29 jpentland has joined
2173 2013-12-03 23:11:31 <cfields> Luke-Jr: sure. That's not really a big concern of mine, but auditability is. So you'll get yours for free out of the need to make bitcoin-specific changes stand out
2174 2013-12-03 23:11:33 <rweichler> but mine doesn't have scriptPubKey.hex
2175 2013-12-03 23:11:37 <rweichler> it literally has everything but that
2176 2013-12-03 23:11:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rweichler: pastebin getrawtransaction's output?
2177 2013-12-03 23:12:02 <rweichler> ok
2178 2013-12-03 23:12:15 <Luke-Jr> cfields: any reason not to take the dmg as input and extract it in gitian?
2179 2013-12-03 23:12:30 <rweichler> http://r333d.com/buttcoin.txt
2180 2013-12-03 23:13:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rweichler: is this v0.8.5?
2181 2013-12-03 23:13:05 zcopley has joined
2182 2013-12-03 23:13:28 <rweichler> i compiled github/origin-master like yesterday
2183 2013-12-03 23:13:31 <rweichler> but it says 0.8.2
2184 2013-12-03 23:13:37 <rweichler> v0.8.2-834-gb9988c9-beta
2185 2013-12-03 23:13:38 <cfields> Luke-Jr: it's a huge pain, and seems to either require java or sudo (mount -o loop)
2186 2013-12-03 23:14:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rweichler: Oh, I don't know what git head has there
2187 2013-12-03 23:14:05 <cfields> Luke-Jr: with a bit more prodding, we may get something to extract it more easily though
2188 2013-12-03 23:14:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Try decoderawtransaction?
2189 2013-12-03 23:14:34 tych0 has joined
2190 2013-12-03 23:14:40 <cfields> Luke-Jr: want to move to bitcoin-build to avoid flooding here?
2191 2013-12-03 23:15:05 <Luke-Jr> cfields: don't particular care where, not like anyone else is trying to chat here
2192 2013-12-03 23:15:31 <rweichler> michagogo|cloud: http://r333d.com/buttcoin2.txt
2193 2013-12-03 23:15:49 <cfields> ok. others can speak up if we're bugging em :)
2194 2013-12-03 23:15:53 theboos has joined
2195 2013-12-03 23:16:02 balboa has joined
2196 2013-12-03 23:16:08 <rweichler> michagogo|cloud: wait, sorry. that's not the right one
2197 2013-12-03 23:16:24 owowo has quit (Quit: 8                      ~~<   K1lr0y w4s h3R3   > ~~                          8)
2198 2013-12-03 23:16:52 <rweichler> michagogo|cloud: okay, now it's the right one http://r333d.com/buttcoin2.txt
2199 2013-12-03 23:17:04 <Luke-Jr> bleh, this xcode download is HUGE
2200 2013-12-03 23:17:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|01:08:50 <Luke-Jr> cfields: any reason not to take the dmg as input and extract it in gitian?
2201 2013-12-03 23:17:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: You don't mean xcode_3.2.6_and_ios_sdk_4.3.dmg, do you?
2202 2013-12-03 23:17:16 <Luke-Jr> and not the one I already had :<
2203 2013-12-03 23:17:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If you do...
2204 2013-12-03 23:17:25 <Luke-Jr> michagogo|cloud: I do
2205 2013-12-03 23:17:39 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|because that would mean copying a 4gb file into the vm/lxc
2206 2013-12-03 23:17:41 <cfields> Luke-Jr: again, i can offer you the small file inside if you'd like
2207 2013-12-03 23:17:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|vs 50 mb
2208 2013-12-03 23:17:47 <Luke-Jr> oh, the pkg is smaller
2209 2013-12-03 23:18:00 <Luke-Jr> cfields: I wouldn't want to make you do something illegal
2210 2013-12-03 23:18:02 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|has 1gb left of xcode_3.2.6_and_ios_sdk_4.3.dmg to download
2211 2013-12-03 23:18:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: +1
2212 2013-12-03 23:18:40 <cfields> ok
2213 2013-12-03 23:19:09 PRab has joined
2214 2013-12-03 23:19:22 <Luke-Jr> cfields: if you're in a hurry for the bounty, I can send it on trust that you address any issues though
2215 2013-12-03 23:19:55 <Luke-Jr> (not that I'm expecting any)
2216 2013-12-03 23:20:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|01:13:39 <Luke-Jr> bleh, this xcode download is HUGE
2217 2013-12-03 23:20:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Well, it *is* the all-in-one package containing literally everything that you need to develop for SL
2218 2013-12-03 23:20:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|*and* iOS 4.3
2219 2013-12-03 23:20:12 <Luke-Jr> SL?
2220 2013-12-03 23:20:19 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Snow Leopard
2221 2013-12-03 23:20:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(OS X 10.6)
2222 2013-12-03 23:20:50 <cfields> Luke-Jr: not in a hurry, just didn't want it to stagnate so i gave a nudge
2223 2013-12-03 23:20:57 <Luke-Jr> k
2224 2013-12-03 23:21:36 <cfields> would rather have someone verify anyway. afaik no one else has gone through the whole process, so i'm only assuming it's deterministic because it is between runs
2225 2013-12-03 23:22:03 KillYourTV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2226 2013-12-03 23:22:28 <rweichler> okay, i installed 0.8.5
2227 2013-12-03 23:22:49 <rweichler> but when i use it says
2228 2013-12-03 23:22:50 <rweichler> : Corrupted block database detected.
2229 2013-12-03 23:22:51 <rweichler> Do you want to rebuild the block database now?
2230 2013-12-03 23:22:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|uh?
2231 2013-12-03 23:23:00 <rweichler> if i run with -reindex does it fuck everything up?
2232 2013-12-03 23:23:01 Application has joined
2233 2013-12-03 23:23:22 KillYourTV has joined
2234 2013-12-03 23:23:40 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|doesn't know if anything changed with the indices between 0.8.5 and git head
2235 2013-12-03 23:23:55 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|rweichler: It should make it work, but it'll take a while
2236 2013-12-03 23:24:12 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And it may not b necessary
2237 2013-12-03 23:24:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|be*
2238 2013-12-03 23:24:24 <rweichler> well... bitcoind exits
2239 2013-12-03 23:24:35 <rweichler> and are we talking about download the entire blockchain?
2240 2013-12-03 23:24:41 <rweichler> cause i do not want to wait 3 days
2241 2013-12-03 23:24:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|not downloading
2242 2013-12-03 23:24:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|but indexing
2243 2013-12-03 23:24:47 <rweichler> ok.
2244 2013-12-03 23:24:57 Uglux has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2245 2013-12-03 23:25:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, the same thing that happens when you download
2246 2013-12-03 23:25:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|just without the actual downloading part
2247 2013-12-03 23:25:15 <rweichler> i see
2248 2013-12-03 23:25:36 pablog has quit (Quit: pablog)
2249 2013-12-03 23:26:01 <rweichler> ah, okay. not bad.
2250 2013-12-03 23:26:15 zcopley_ has joined
2251 2013-12-03 23:26:24 <rweichler> sorry for spamming you guys with noob questions by the way >__>
2252 2013-12-03 23:26:27 <rweichler> ill shut up soon
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2256 2013-12-03 23:31:34 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2257 2013-12-03 23:32:20 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
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2259 2013-12-03 23:33:58 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|xcode_3.2.6_and_ios_sdk_4.3.dmg complete
2260 2013-12-03 23:34:55 <Luke-Jr> cfields: I wonder if Apple could be convinced to make it available by itself, if we tell them why (with a non-bitcoin example..)
2261 2013-12-03 23:35:18 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2263 2013-12-03 23:35:20 <warren> anyone know how to create an alternate Bitcoin-Qt launcher on Mac to add -testnet ?
2264 2013-12-03 23:35:31 <Luke-Jr> warren: why not just use start?
2265 2013-12-03 23:35:42 <warren> Luke-Jr: eh?
2266 2013-12-03 23:35:49 <Luke-Jr> start Bitcoin-Qt.app -testnet
2267 2013-12-03 23:35:57 <Luke-Jr> I think that works?
2268 2013-12-03 23:36:13 <warren> I'm hoping for a non-terminal way.
2269 2013-12-03 23:36:25 <warren> for morons
2270 2013-12-03 23:36:37 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: IIRC it's `open Bitcoin-Qt.app --args -testnet`
2271 2013-12-03 23:36:46 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(at least that's one way)
2272 2013-12-03 23:37:02 <cfields> Luke-Jr: unlikely i think, since I'm sure their official stance is that only xcode is supported
2273 2013-12-03 23:37:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: -bash: start: command not found
2274 2013-12-03 23:37:47 <Happzz> need testnet coins at mmmmmmnz7N5h2GwdYhKZraQZS4jMSukdzn please
2275 2013-12-03 23:37:52 <Happzz> if anyone has spares.
2276 2013-12-03 23:38:09 <cfields> Luke-Jr: figured out your problem, btw. $(LEVELDB) was redefined in Makefile.include, causing a circular dependency
2277 2013-12-03 23:38:26 da2ce7_laptop has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2278 2013-12-03 23:38:47 maaku has joined
2279 2013-12-03 23:38:49 <cfields> change it to use this instead:  $(MAKE) -C $(top_builddir)/src leveldb/$(@F)
2280 2013-12-03 23:38:58 <Happzz> thanks to whoever sent me those coins. that'll be enough.
2281 2013-12-03 23:39:09 maaku is now known as Guest80321
2282 2013-12-03 23:39:15 da2ce7_laptop has joined
2283 2013-12-03 23:40:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Happzz: http://tpfaucet.appspot.com
2284 2013-12-03 23:40:39 Teknik-L has joined
2285 2013-12-03 23:40:51 <shesek> or http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
2286 2013-12-03 23:40:54 brson has joined
2287 2013-12-03 23:41:20 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|cfields: FYI, I match on MacOSX10.6.pkg
2288 2013-12-03 23:41:47 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: awesome, thanks
2289 2013-12-03 23:41:49 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Nothing else is needed from the dmg, right?
2290 2013-12-03 23:41:57 <cfields> nope, toss it
2291 2013-12-03 23:42:23 Teknik-L has left ()
2292 2013-12-03 23:42:44 Guest80321 has left ()
2293 2013-12-03 23:43:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Erm, what would happen if I were to install that pkg?
2294 2013-12-03 23:43:10 t7 has quit (Quit: beddy byes)
2295 2013-12-03 23:44:36 <Luke-Jr> cfields: and remove the EXTRA_*_DEPENDENCIES?
2296 2013-12-03 23:44:46 <cfields> Luke-Jr: yea
2297 2013-12-03 23:45:18 <cfields> michagogo|cloud: by itself? It'd probably just dump some files
2298 2013-12-03 23:48:16 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2300 2013-12-03 23:51:24 <cfields> Luke-Jr: as a rule, if one helper lib depends on another, it's masking the real issue.
2301 2013-12-03 23:53:49 rastapopuloto has left ()
2302 2013-12-03 23:53:54 <Luke-Jr> cfields: pushed that
2303 2013-12-03 23:55:35 tych0 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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