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   5 2013-12-07 00:07:44 <imton> sipa: gmaxwell: now, can someone explain me why I can't sign the tx? https://gist.github.com/imton/b5081e83a8f3b8dff373
   6 2013-12-07 00:07:52 <imton> it's at the end.
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   8 2013-12-07 00:08:05 <imton> I'd like to understand what I am doing wrong
   9 2013-12-07 00:09:12 <gmaxwell> imton: are you sure you failed?
  10 2013-12-07 00:09:21 <imton>     "complete" => false
  11 2013-12-07 00:09:46 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2265
  12 2013-12-07 00:09:51 <imton> I am just trying to send btcs to multi sig address
  13 2013-12-07 00:10:15 <imton> gmaxwell: oh... really?
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  28 2013-12-07 00:22:24 <imton> gmaxwell: well, after researching a little bit more I think that is not my case
  29 2013-12-07 00:22:54 <imton> would you mind checking https://gist.github.com/imton/b5081e83a8f3b8dff373
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  32 2013-12-07 00:27:53 <gmaxwell> imton: your private key doesn't match the pubkey.
  33 2013-12-07 00:28:05 <imton> I see
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  35 2013-12-07 00:28:13 <imton> should bitcoind alert me that?
  36 2013-12-07 00:28:31 <imton> gmaxwell: this one does 93KcqG9tWkXu9xsLE7hUxpwHjMwXaGeeTDkkqKNXctYskBEffg8 ?
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  38 2013-12-07 00:28:38 <gmaxwell> it did, but not signing it. :P its setup so you can provide more than is needed.
  39 2013-12-07 00:29:09 <gmaxwell> No.
  40 2013-12-07 00:29:18 <gmaxwell> you want the key for address mzKDeYEUxWyayE1Migp3AgSxpcxtuGoxUe
  41 2013-12-07 00:29:18 <imton> oh
  42 2013-12-07 00:29:22 <imton> yeah
  43 2013-12-07 00:29:46 <imton> maybe I am converting it wrong
  44 2013-12-07 00:29:48 <imton> e4a7869c630550e4c677ef8a1e46af726e5436e604226b11869eb53b74c26a03
  45 2013-12-07 00:29:58 <imton> this is the original format I have in my program
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  47 2013-12-07 00:30:59 <gmaxwell> I don't see how to get from that to mzKDeYEUxWyayE1Migp3AgSxpcxtuGoxUe
  48 2013-12-07 00:31:18 <imton> that was the priv hey
  49 2013-12-07 00:31:21 <imton> in hex I think
  50 2013-12-07 00:31:42 <imton> I don't know why it is not from that address....
  51 2013-12-07 00:31:56 <gmaxwell> well thats your problem. Good luck.
  52 2013-12-07 00:32:07 <imton> gmaxwell: thanks
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 116 2013-12-07 01:28:18 <roconnor> what's the status of pay to script?
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 119 2013-12-07 01:33:26 <gmaxwell> roconnor: do you mean pay to script hash?
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 121 2013-12-07 01:34:39 <roconnor> no.  I'm wondering if there is, for example, a urlformat like bitcoin:somebase64encodingofascript that people can import into their client and send money to that script.
 122 2013-12-07 01:34:47 <gmaxwell> No.
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 124 2013-12-07 01:35:16 <roconnor> oh wait, I guess arbitrary scripts are not being relayed yet.
 125 2013-12-07 01:35:23 <gmaxwell> The payment protocol can encode scriptpubkeys directly, I've never tested that.
 126 2013-12-07 01:35:45 <gmaxwell> roconnor: there are restrictions, but more than just the default form is relayed.
 127 2013-12-07 01:35:51 <roconnor> what about for just simple n-of-m scripts?
 128 2013-12-07 01:36:40 <gmaxwell> those are relayed, where M <= 3
 129 2013-12-07 01:36:51 <roconnor> I guess I'm trying to figure out how ... bitpay was it ... works.  The service that does 2-of-3 where you get two keys and it gets one and you are supposed to hide one of yours securely.
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 131 2013-12-07 01:37:50 <roconnor> I mean, clearly I know how it works on the protocol level.
 132 2013-12-07 01:38:26 <roconnor> I'm just fuzzy on the medium in which various things are exchanged between me and the service is.
 133 2013-12-07 01:39:11 <copumpkin> why the M <= 3 restriction?
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 142 2013-12-07 01:47:33 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: it's just a size restriction mostly. Basically the IsStandard rules attempt to inhibit stuff with abuse potential but no actual users yet.
 143 2013-12-07 01:47:41 <copumpkin> ah
 144 2013-12-07 01:47:54 <copumpkin> I've toyed with the idea of having larger M values
 145 2013-12-07 01:48:00 <copumpkin> never really bothered doing it though
 146 2013-12-07 01:48:13 <gmaxwell> yea, if you've got an application where it makes sense it could be lifted pretty easily.
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 148 2013-12-07 01:48:31 <copumpkin> well, the only use case I had in mind was a safe "cold storage" thingy
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 150 2013-12-07 01:50:17 <copumpkin> I'd put coins into a 3-of-5 thing, then send each of the 5 to different secure locations :P
 151 2013-12-07 01:50:23 <copumpkin> or some crap like that
 152 2013-12-07 01:50:43 <copumpkin> horcruxes of bitcoin
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 252 2013-12-07 04:03:10 <gmaxwell> saracen: anyone offer to pay for a feed of the unique visitor rate to http://directory.io/ hoping it correlates with market activity?
 253 2013-12-07 04:03:44 <saracen> Nope
 254 2013-12-07 04:04:03 <saracen> I havent really looked too much into the traffic I'm getting. Cloudflare does some analytics, but, theyre having problems atm
 255 2013-12-07 04:04:21 <warren> yeah, I can;'t even login to their site
 256 2013-12-07 04:04:27 <warren> maybe they need ddos protection
 257 2013-12-07 04:04:30 <gmaxwell> lol
 258 2013-12-07 04:04:34 <saracen> haha
 259 2013-12-07 04:04:56 <saracen> It hasnt updated since the 4th. They say theyre working on it
 260 2013-12-07 04:05:09 <saracen> But, by the looks of it, I've had 6 million page views. But, people kept crawling...
 261 2013-12-07 04:05:16 <saracen> 30,000 unique
 262 2013-12-07 04:05:43 <saracen> Dont know how much I can trust any of that though. and I wasnt keeping my own logs to begin with.
 263 2013-12-07 04:05:50 <gmaxwell> oh wow, not much in fact if thats correct.
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 266 2013-12-07 04:06:23 <saracen> Even when I started keeping logs, I forgot the IP address would all be cloudflares, until I corrected that. So... yeah. No diea.
 267 2013-12-07 04:06:26 <saracen> idea*
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 274 2013-12-07 04:09:54 <saracen> I don't know how people jumped to the conclusion that it had something to do with the price crashing the other day...
 275 2013-12-07 04:10:33 <saracen> I don't think it got enough traffic for that. I wasn't in any bitcoin related channels, but I checked out pricetalk logs today, and nobody really mentioned/panicked over it.
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 278 2013-12-07 04:19:49 <saracen> gmaxwell: http://directory.io/nginx_status
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 283 2013-12-07 04:29:29 <pierce> is there a good place to grab the old bitcoin binaries?  http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/ seems to only have the past few months
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 293 2013-12-07 04:37:48 <gavinandresen> pierce: https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Obsolete/
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 299 2013-12-07 04:41:15 <pierce> gavinandresen: thank you sir
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 354 2013-12-07 06:18:57 <fooledbyprimes> Q: I downloaded what I think is an official torrent of block-chain "snapshot" … it's like 1.5 Gigs or whatever… but I heard the block chain is 9gigs .  what am I missing?  thanks.
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 356 2013-12-07 06:19:51 <fooledbyprimes> I don't care about an index.
 357 2013-12-07 06:20:03 <Belxjander> fooledbyprimes: last I heard the blockchain was trying for 20GB...
 358 2013-12-07 06:20:58 <fooledbyprimes> so confusing.  Is there any way to get a snapshot from, say, 2 months ago?  I don't care about being current.
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 361 2013-12-07 06:22:42 <fooledbyprimes> also, what happens if the sppewks decide to flood the system with gazillion separate satoshi transations?  that would inflate the chain like a freakin dos atttak.
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 363 2013-12-07 06:23:10 <fooledbyprimes> just curious
 364 2013-12-07 06:25:50 <Belxjander> all those transactions would get eaten by the miners and probably end up being trimmed down by the merkle tree options
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 366 2013-12-07 06:26:56 <fooledbyprimes> not aware of mekle tree options
 367 2013-12-07 06:27:14 <fooledbyprimes> so bitcoin can absorb such attacks?
 368 2013-12-07 06:27:49 <fooledbyprimes> (note:i'm assuming fractional transactions are possible)
 369 2013-12-07 06:27:57 <fooledbyprimes> (im a total newbie)
 370 2013-12-07 06:28:35 <fooledbyprimes> thanks for the info
 371 2013-12-07 06:28:52 <Belxjander> I'm not exactly new but I am also not a developer...
 372 2013-12-07 06:28:59 <Belxjander> so I can only offer my personal opinion
 373 2013-12-07 06:30:01 <fooledbyprimes> I should just read satoshi's paper.
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 382 2013-12-07 06:37:27 <gmaxwell> fooledbyprimes: extra transactions aren't really an issue, miners prioritize free txn by the age of the coins they spend times value, and non-free by fees.
 383 2013-12-07 06:37:38 <gmaxwell> so that kind of attack only works if they bleed themselves dry paying fees.
 384 2013-12-07 06:37:45 <gmaxwell> which makes it self-limiting.
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 539 2013-12-07 10:11:58 <go1111111> testing my ability to type in this channel...
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 598 2013-12-07 11:45:57 <deego> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=359582.0;all  - heh, looks like this new and revolutionary 1-second proposal been submitted on slashdot as well. :)
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 602 2013-12-07 11:50:03 <sipa> go1111111: success
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 613 2013-12-07 12:02:18 <edcba> deego: i am not sure to understand that proposal
 614 2013-12-07 12:05:23 <deego> edcba: too vaguely written?
 615 2013-12-07 12:05:45 <edcba> nope i still didn't read the whole thing
 616 2013-12-07 12:06:36 <edcba> i mainly looked at comment thread on bitcointalk
 617 2013-12-07 12:07:24 <deego> edcba: ah, same. I haven't RTFA'd the paper. :)
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 634 2013-12-07 12:42:22 <Eremes> anyone know how to use vanitygen on multiple gpus ?
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 678 2013-12-07 13:36:05 <deanclkclk> hello
 679 2013-12-07 13:36:12 <deanclkclk> anyone around?
 680 2013-12-07 13:36:25 <matjeh> depends. do you have sweets?
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 685 2013-12-07 13:46:15 <deego> or btc
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 698 2013-12-07 14:06:45 <deanclkclk> nope sorry
 699 2013-12-07 14:07:00 <deanclkclk> I am trying to build an exchange for crypto currencies
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 702 2013-12-07 14:07:31 <deanclkclk> I found blockchain.info for API calls but, people are recommeding not to use it and use a node internally
 703 2013-12-07 14:07:41 <deanclkclk> is this recommended and why?
 704 2013-12-07 14:08:07 <Luke-Jr> if you have to ask, you're nowhere near qualified to build an exchange
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 744 2013-12-07 15:07:05 <matjeh> why was the version field in the header in block 199999 set to 1, and in block 200000 it was set to 2? what changed?
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 753 2013-12-07 15:20:57 <tholenst> matjeh: I guess this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0034.mediawiki
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 765 2013-12-07 15:26:37 Neozonz is now known as Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Neozonz
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 767 2013-12-07 15:27:59 <matjeh> tholenst: ah, thanks
 768 2013-12-07 15:30:21 <Emcy> v2 blox
 769 2013-12-07 15:30:31 <sipa> indeed, bip35
 770 2013-12-07 15:30:33 <sipa> eh, 34
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 781 2013-12-07 15:52:04 <rlifchitz> ;;gen
 782 2013-12-07 15:52:05 <gribble> Error: "gen" is not a valid command.
 783 2013-12-07 15:52:13 Raccoon has joined
 784 2013-12-07 15:53:35 <sipa> ;;genrate 5000
 785 2013-12-07 15:53:36 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 5000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 707408283.051, is 0.00355457045443 BTC per day and 0.000148107102268 BTC per hour.
 786 2013-12-07 15:53:43 <rlifchitz> ;;genrate 7500000
 787 2013-12-07 15:53:45 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 7500000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 707408283.051, is 5.33185568165 BTC per day and 0.222160653402 BTC per hour.
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 809 2013-12-07 16:16:01 <deanclkclk> so folks...to setup an exchange..I need to run a miner?
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 814 2013-12-07 16:18:04 <sipa> i think you don't understand anything about bitcoin if you have to ask that
 815 2013-12-07 16:18:31 <sipa> please learn how the system works (read the paper, for starters) before thinking about setting up an exchange
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 835 2013-12-07 16:33:37 <deanclkclk> ok
 836 2013-12-07 16:33:52 <deanclkclk> I am going through the wiki
 837 2013-12-07 16:35:19 Goonie has joined
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 839 2013-12-07 16:37:04 <Goonie> What's the right bugtracker for issues with the Seed DNS resolvers? (e.g. seed.bitcoin.sipa.be)
 840 2013-12-07 16:38:23 <sipa> github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder
 841 2013-12-07 16:38:31 halvors1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 842 2013-12-07 16:38:40 <sipa> (that's the one petertodd, Luke-Jr and me are running)
 843 2013-12-07 16:40:25 Eiii has joined
 844 2013-12-07 16:40:36 <Goonie> thanks, I'll file an issue there. Just one quick question, the case sensitivity bug I debugged several months ago is fixed in the versions you're using, right?
 845 2013-12-07 16:41:18 <sipa> afaik, yes
 846 2013-12-07 16:43:01 <CodeShark> could I run one, too? :)
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 849 2013-12-07 16:44:35 <CodeShark> alright, giving it a whirl
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 852 2013-12-07 16:46:52 <CodeShark> I'd like to find a good set of metrics for peer quality to use in heuristics for peer discovery
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 857 2013-12-07 16:51:22 <CodeShark> sipa: the output of dnsseed is a bit messed up for me - newlines and stjuff
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 863 2013-12-07 16:53:11 <sipa> pull requests welcome
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 866 2013-12-07 16:53:44 <pZombie> are you guys watching the huge manipulation going on?
 867 2013-12-07 16:54:04 <sipa> #bitcoin-pricetalk or #bitcoin or #bitcoin-otc please
 868 2013-12-07 16:54:16 <pZombie> if the exchanges don't communicate with each other and ban the great manipulators, btc won't survive this
 869 2013-12-07 16:54:28 edulix has joined
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 871 2013-12-07 16:54:49 <sipa> offtopic here
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 873 2013-12-07 16:55:43 <CodeShark> at first I thought pZombie was talking about the brilliant ways that hands are used to type code that directs our CPUs - but now I realize pZombie is talking about fear and greed
 874 2013-12-07 16:56:33 halvors has joined
 875 2013-12-07 16:56:46 <pZombie> nope, i am talking about manipulation on such a grand scale, you wouldn't believe it if you have not seen what i have seen. It's someone trying to deliberately harm the coin
 876 2013-12-07 16:57:05 freggles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 877 2013-12-07 16:57:13 <CodeShark> is that "someone" called the chinese government? :)
 878 2013-12-07 16:57:28 <pZombie> and then you can forget about all your development, because you will be developing for a dead coin
 879 2013-12-07 16:57:31 <CodeShark> anyhow, yes - offtopic here
 880 2013-12-07 16:57:38 <pZombie> alright then
 881 2013-12-07 16:57:45 <sipa> pZombie: if the bitcoin economy can't withstand that, then i doubt it would survive anyway
 882 2013-12-07 16:57:49 <sipa> now take it elsewhere
 883 2013-12-07 16:58:06 Nesetalis has joined
 884 2013-12-07 16:58:27 <CodeShark> this conversation is analogous to someone telling the wright brothers their invention is doomed because of price manipulation of the materials they used to build their landing gear
 885 2013-12-07 16:59:05 <CodeShark> as if the laws of physics care
 886 2013-12-07 16:59:07 <pZombie> i had more to say but i will respect the request to not discuss this here
 887 2013-12-07 16:59:33 <sipa> Goonie: wait, what? you don't even parse address messages? does that mean you're *solely* connecting to IP addresses the DNS seeds give you??
 888 2013-12-07 17:01:16 <Goonie> Yes, true.
 889 2013-12-07 17:01:41 <sipa> i don't want that power
 890 2013-12-07 17:02:20 <Goonie> I can understand.
 891 2013-12-07 17:02:27 <Goonie> Its a long known issue with bitcoinj
 892 2013-12-07 17:02:29 <sipa> i knew bitcoinj relied on dns seeds strongly
 893 2013-12-07 17:02:32 <sipa> but this is horrible
 894 2013-12-07 17:03:28 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
 895 2013-12-07 17:03:58 <sipa> find some DoS exploit in my code, and you've only 2 people in the world left you need to coerce to sybil every single bitcoinj node out there
 896 2013-12-07 17:04:06 <CodeShark> sipa: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder/pull/15
 897 2013-12-07 17:04:19 <sipa> well, that's already the case, actually, even if you did parse address messages
 898 2013-12-07 17:04:51 <Goonie> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/core/src/main/java/com/google/bitcoin/params/MainNetParams.java
 899 2013-12-07 17:05:17 <Goonie> Guess we can take your seed out of there, if you want
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 901 2013-12-07 17:05:29 <sipa> that would only worsen the situation
 902 2013-12-07 17:05:31 <Goonie> Although I think it would be backwards
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 907 2013-12-07 17:07:40 <Goonie> sipa: In your opinion, what would be the actions needed to be taken to improve the address handling in bitcoinj?
 908 2013-12-07 17:08:36 <sipa> keep some known working IP addresses stored, and only use the DNS seeds for just a few of the outgoing connections, for example?
 909 2013-12-07 17:08:51 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 910 2013-12-07 17:09:25 <sipa> in general, diversifying how you find peers to connect to
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 912 2013-12-07 17:10:06 <CodeShark> what if the protocol were extended to provide a rating for different peers, which we could evaluate ourselves - and we could in turn give the peer that gave us these ratings a rating based on how accurate we deem them to be?
 913 2013-12-07 17:10:28 <sipa> i think the first step would be adding host keys
 914 2013-12-07 17:10:32 <Goonie> sipa: Yeah I had a patch for that in Bitcoin Wallet already over a year ago, but its missing a tiny bit of support in bitcoinj.
 915 2013-12-07 17:10:33 <sipa> and authenticating the connection
 916 2013-12-07 17:10:54 <Goonie> sipa: Generally, peer handling is a mess in bitcoinj imho.
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 918 2013-12-07 17:11:22 <CodeShark> sipa: yes. without host keys, this scheme cannot work
 919 2013-12-07 17:11:41 <CodeShark> another added benefit of host keys - hosts could sign block and tx messages
 920 2013-12-07 17:11:43 <Goonie> host keys == SSL?
 921 2013-12-07 17:11:49 <sipa> not necessarily
 922 2013-12-07 17:11:57 <CodeShark> so we could receive tx and block messages from trusted hosts indirectly
 923 2013-12-07 17:12:02 <sipa> CodeShark: indeed
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 925 2013-12-07 17:12:25 <sipa> Goonie: we can easily do our own ECDSA based authentication
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 927 2013-12-07 17:12:38 <sipa> as bitcoin's security relies on those anyway already
 928 2013-12-07 17:12:46 <Goonie> ok
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 932 2013-12-07 17:13:53 <Goonie> But I think SSL and ECDSA are not exclusive. Isn't SSL (and StartTLS in particular) just a protocol?
 933 2013-12-07 17:14:08 <sipa> yes
 934 2013-12-07 17:14:12 <sipa> we can do both
 935 2013-12-07 17:15:15 <deanclkclk> quick question....in Bitcoin terms..what is a block?
 936 2013-12-07 17:15:30 <CodeShark> quick? :)_
 937 2013-12-07 17:15:47 <pZombie> would it be possible to have a "lock down coins for x days" slider, and autolock checkbox which has a slider that let's you set how many days it should take for the autolock to be released after issuing the command, and a box to lock transaction to only certain wallet addresses same as above, with all that being stored in the blockchain?
 938 2013-12-07 17:15:55 <CodeShark> if you're asking this question, I'm guessing it isn't going to be so quick :)
 939 2013-12-07 17:16:14 <deanclkclk> ok plz just tell me
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 941 2013-12-07 17:16:32 <sipa> deanclkclk: please start by reading the paper
 942 2013-12-07 17:16:33 <pZombie> that way, even if a trojan invaded your pc, the coins could not be stolen
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 944 2013-12-07 17:16:58 <sipa> pZombie: why would the trojan care what the value of the slider is?
 945 2013-12-07 17:17:00 <pZombie> if someone using a trojan tries to remove the autolock, you get notified by an alarm
 946 2013-12-07 17:17:00 <deanclkclk> is a block a miner or each PC that has Bitcoin QT running?
 947 2013-12-07 17:17:33 <sipa> deanclkclk: will you please first study this yourself?
 948 2013-12-07 17:17:42 <pZombie> sipa - the coins would be locked and could be transferred only to certain wallets. Not sure i get your question
 949 2013-12-07 17:17:55 <sipa> pZombie: who would enforce this?
 950 2013-12-07 17:18:20 <deanclkclk> I'm reading the wiki but, something isn't making sense sipa that's why I'm asking
 951 2013-12-07 17:18:27 <pZombie> that is why i asked if that info could be stored in the blockchain. The user would set it up in his wallet
 952 2013-12-07 17:18:39 <sipa> deanclkclk: start here: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.odf
 953 2013-12-07 17:18:41 <berndj> deanclkclk, #bitcoin is more suited to these sorts of questions
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 957 2013-12-07 17:18:43 <CodeShark> ideally, the blockchain should
 958 2013-12-07 17:18:48 <sipa> pZombie: that would be a massive overhaul of the protocol
 959 2013-12-07 17:18:50 <CodeShark> ideally, the blockchain should ONLY be used for timestamping purposes
 960 2013-12-07 17:19:07 <pZombie> maybe, but it would be a massive security improvement. Making it impossible to steal coins
 961 2013-12-07 17:19:09 <CodeShark> any additional data put in there needs good justification
 962 2013-12-07 17:19:19 <pZombie> even on a compromised pc
 963 2013-12-07 17:19:37 <sipa> pZombie: i think there are far more secure systems possible, which don't require this
 964 2013-12-07 17:19:42 <sipa> pZombie: like multisig
 965 2013-12-07 17:19:54 <pZombie> it cannot get more secure than what i just described
 966 2013-12-07 17:20:06 <pZombie> it makes it completely impossible to steal coins
 967 2013-12-07 17:20:17 <pZombie> even if the attacker has full control of your pc
 968 2013-12-07 17:20:24 <sipa> until the time passes
 969 2013-12-07 17:20:38 <pZombie> not, i explained why even then it would not be possible
 970 2013-12-07 17:20:55 <CodeShark> seems m-of-n is a superior solution
 971 2013-12-07 17:21:01 <sipa> i don't understand then
 972 2013-12-07 17:21:02 <pZombie> the user could set the autolock, and the attacker would have to remove it, but the user set it to take X days for the lock to be removed
 973 2013-12-07 17:21:33 <CodeShark> hmm
 974 2013-12-07 17:21:36 <pZombie> so every time someone removes the autolock, including the user, the user gets notified X days before it is removed, depending on how many days he set
 975 2013-12-07 17:21:40 <pZombie> it is perfect
 976 2013-12-07 17:21:42 <CodeShark> I was actually thinking about something similar recently
 977 2013-12-07 17:21:47 porqui has joined
 978 2013-12-07 17:22:00 <CodeShark> for large movements of coins where you don't care if it takes a while
 979 2013-12-07 17:22:20 <sipa> so, they'd hijact the software, issue the autolock, and hope not to be discovered?
 980 2013-12-07 17:22:24 <CodeShark> however, I'm not sure that this problem isn't better solved by m-of-n
 981 2013-12-07 17:22:30 <pZombie> the notification would be both through the wallet, but if the PC is fully compromised there also needs to be some third party service which alarms the user via an SMS. A service that checked the blockchain for when a lock has been removed
 982 2013-12-07 17:22:48 <pZombie> sipa, you did not read or did not understand what i typed
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 984 2013-12-07 17:22:52 <pZombie> it is 100% secure
 985 2013-12-07 17:23:02 <sipa> oh, you're relying on a third party
 986 2013-12-07 17:23:04 <sipa> well, sure
 987 2013-12-07 17:23:07 <pZombie> no...
 988 2013-12-07 17:23:08 <pZombie> jesus
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 990 2013-12-07 17:23:28 <pZombie> the third party could be multiple third parties including yourself on another pc, scanning the blockchain
 991 2013-12-07 17:23:34 <pZombie> to see if the lock has been removed
 992 2013-12-07 17:23:39 <sipa> agree
 993 2013-12-07 17:23:54 <sipa> but you're still relying on them
 994 2013-12-07 17:24:06 <sipa> which has privacy implications
 995 2013-12-07 17:24:06 <pZombie> _including_ yourself
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 997 2013-12-07 17:24:10 <pZombie> no
 998 2013-12-07 17:24:16 <CodeShark> why not just use m-of-n?
 999 2013-12-07 17:24:28 <pZombie> you could setup your own pc which scans the blockchain for if the lock has been removed
1000 2013-12-07 17:24:29 <sipa> you're attempting to protect yourself against an attacker controlling your system
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1002 2013-12-07 17:24:40 <sipa> you should assume they prevent the alerting on your own system
1003 2013-12-07 17:24:40 <CodeShark> you can run 10 devices and require a signature from all of them, if you want
1004 2013-12-07 17:24:54 <CodeShark> a hacker would literally have to compromise them all to steal your coins
1005 2013-12-07 17:24:59 <pZombie> also, noone needs to know who you are. I am sure you guys know how to code this so no private data is released about whose wallet is locked and who it belongs to
1006 2013-12-07 17:25:10 <pZombie> sipa, i said other pc
1007 2013-12-07 17:25:21 <pZombie> it could be your phone checking the blockchain for example
1008 2013-12-07 17:25:23 <sipa> then why not use multisig in the first place?
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1010 2013-12-07 17:25:34 <sipa> it's far less hassle, and needs no protocol change
1011 2013-12-07 17:25:54 <pZombie> because what i just described would be easiest even for the most PC illiterate to handle 100% security
1012 2013-12-07 17:26:05 <pZombie> it would be 3 sliders a checkbox and a button
1013 2013-12-07 17:26:19 <sipa> i don't believe in 100% security in the first place
1014 2013-12-07 17:26:25 <pZombie> it is 100% secure
1015 2013-12-07 17:26:36 sipa has left ("fine")
1016 2013-12-07 17:27:35 <pZombie> some people are just nay sayers in their nature. Without providing any real argument how it would not be 100% secure he just keeps attacking it
1017 2013-12-07 17:28:35 <pZombie> maybe i should say sorry for providing you with a 100% secure that on top would be very easy to use for newbies to secure their wallets
1018 2013-12-07 17:28:58 <pZombie> +way*
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1024 2013-12-07 17:39:21 <CodeShark> the only way to ensure 100% that your coins can never be stolen is to send them to an unredeemable output
1025 2013-12-07 17:39:52 <CodeShark> sure, you will never be able to use them again - but nobody else will either :)
1026 2013-12-07 17:40:37 <pZombie> CodeShark - how would you steal coins if there is a security mechanism in place as i described it?
1027 2013-12-07 17:40:49 <CodeShark> not even the rubber hose attack could steal coins sent to an unredeemable output
1028 2013-12-07 17:41:04 <pZombie> even if the attacker has the wallet itself, all he can do is to send coins to the locked wallets, which can be offline wallets
1029 2013-12-07 17:41:43 <pZombie> this security mechanism is also good for an exchange
1030 2013-12-07 17:42:10 <pZombie> even if the attacker has the password, the user has password, and payout addresses, bank data all locked down
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1033 2013-12-07 17:42:18 <pZombie> for X amount of days
1034 2013-12-07 17:42:38 <CodeShark> pZombie: have you looked at multisigs?
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1038 2013-12-07 17:43:58 <pZombie> CodeShark - not yet, but it is not part of the wallet
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1040 2013-12-07 17:44:18 <pZombie> i am looking for something which is easiest for users that have little knowledge about computers to use
1041 2013-12-07 17:44:31 <pZombie> and that is secure even if the PC is fully compromised
1042 2013-12-07 17:44:43 <CodeShark> what you're proposing is MUCH more difficult to add to existing clients
1043 2013-12-07 17:44:54 <CodeShark> multisigs already have full protocol support
1044 2013-12-07 17:45:13 <pZombie> ok, but how does multisigs help newbies?
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1048 2013-12-07 17:49:10 <berndj> by not DoSing developers who could be spending time making the client more newbie-friendly instead of changing the protocol
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1051 2013-12-07 17:54:41 <pZombie> berndj Sure, if you live in your own world. But the reality is that security that is easy to use for newbies to secure their wallets, is one of the main issues BTC is facing.
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1053 2013-12-07 17:55:27 <berndj> pZombie, i think that's better addressed by making existing mechanisms that can give you the security you want, more accessible
1054 2013-12-07 17:55:39 <berndj> rather than adding new mechanisms
1055 2013-12-07 17:56:13 <pZombie> berndj - would multisig work on a fully compromised PC?
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1057 2013-12-07 17:56:53 <pZombie> trojan with full control to the box
1058 2013-12-07 17:56:57 <berndj> would anything work on a fully compromised pc?
1059 2013-12-07 17:57:07 <pZombie> yes... what i just described would
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1102 2013-12-07 18:31:52 <pZombie> i will post compressed what i was thinking of. Something very similar can be used for an exchange to secure accounts. Do what you want with it
1103 2013-12-07 18:31:57 <pZombie> Bitcoin-qt wallet -> security settings -> "lock bitcoins" x amount slider    |   "payout to following addresses only"  box to add addresses  |  "lock coins" slider to sex X amount of
1104 2013-12-07 18:31:57 <pZombie> days for the coins to get locked  |   "autolock" checkbox, resulting in coins to get relocked automatically for another X amount of days if not unlocked   |   "unlock timeframe" slider
1105 2013-12-07 18:31:57 <pZombie> to set X amount of days before coins get unlocked   | "unlock" button when pushed will unlock the coins in X amount of days set. The unlock command is stored in the blockchain, so
1106 2013-12-07 18:31:57 <pZombie> the user can keep checking with his phone or other computer for it and get notified/alarmed  |   "issue payout to safe wallet"  offline wallet user setup in case his wallet got stolen.
1107 2013-12-07 18:31:57 <pZombie> The attacker could issue this too, but he cannot steal the coins into his own wallet.
1108 2013-12-07 18:31:57 <pZombie> Required the ability for the blockchain to store such locks.
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1112 2013-12-07 18:34:07 <pZombie> even on a trojan infested PC, provided the trojan got on it AFTER, this should ensure the user won't lose his coins
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1193 2013-12-07 20:18:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|03:44:49 <@gmaxwell> yea, if you've got an application where it makes sense it could be lifted pretty easily.
1194 2013-12-07 20:18:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|um, it could? Wouldn't that be a har- oh, no, this is just for relaying.
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1356 2013-12-07 22:48:45 <phantomcircuit> ;;seen jgarzik
1357 2013-12-07 22:48:45 <gribble> jgarzik was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 days, 7 hours, 5 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <jgarzik> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1s5hzl/my_human_translation_of_the_china_regulation/
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1364 2013-12-07 22:53:50 <justanotheruser> Does anyone know about how secure anonymous webs of trust are?
1365 2013-12-07 22:54:06 strngrbll has quit (Quit: —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— 3.3 (November '11))
1366 2013-12-07 22:55:40 <sipa> what is an anonymous web of trust, and secure against what?
1367 2013-12-07 22:59:05 <phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, a truly anonymous web of trust? is completely insecure against sybil attacks
1368 2013-12-07 22:59:22 <phantomcircuit> a web of trust is based on people who nominally trust each other
1369 2013-12-07 22:59:28 <phantomcircuit> so you need at least pseudonyms
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1371 2013-12-07 23:00:52 <justanotheruser> sipa: secure against someone de-anonymizing it
1372 2013-12-07 23:01:31 <phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, truly anonymous, secure against sybil attack, pick one
1373 2013-12-07 23:01:31 <justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: no, you only trust those who are trusted by those you trust
1374 2013-12-07 23:01:46 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: that is inherently non-anonymoous
1375 2013-12-07 23:01:59 <Luke-Jr> if people are anonymous, there are no identities to express trust in
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1377 2013-12-07 23:03:17 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: they do have identities, which are their public keys
1378 2013-12-07 23:04:04 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: then it isn't anonymous, by definition
1379 2013-12-07 23:04:09 <Luke-Jr> anonymous means there are no identities
1380 2013-12-07 23:04:52 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: not by all definitions. "This paper introduces the concept of anonymous webs of trust – an extension of webs of trust where users can authenticate messages and determine each other’s trust level without compromising their anonymity."
1381 2013-12-07 23:04:57 <justanotheruser> http://www.sps.cs.uni-saarland.de/resources/anonymous-wot.pdf
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1383 2013-12-07 23:05:43 <justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: no, you only trust those who are trusted by those you trust, so sybil attacks are irrelevant
1384 2013-12-07 23:05:47 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: just because some paper uses the term wrong doesn't really matter
1385 2013-12-07 23:06:01 <phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, you fail to understand what anonymous means
1386 2013-12-07 23:06:10 <phantomcircuit> what you're talking about is not anonymous
1387 2013-12-07 23:06:13 <phantomcircuit> but pseudonyms
1388 2013-12-07 23:06:41 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: btw, I haven't heard from benten in a few days
1389 2013-12-07 23:06:50 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: any idea if he still wants me to go out to Austin next week?
1390 2013-12-07 23:06:53 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, he's right across from me
1391 2013-12-07 23:06:57 <phantomcircuit> im sure he does
1392 2013-12-07 23:07:05 <Luke-Jr> I think I can make it work
1393 2013-12-07 23:07:20 <Luke-Jr> but we still need to make the details/arrangemnets :P
1394 2013-12-07 23:07:46 <phantomcircuit> first off, when would you be avail to start
1395 2013-12-07 23:08:03 <phantomcircuit> ie. step on a plane and show up here
1396 2013-12-07 23:08:10 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: It isn't anonymous in that no one can see that you rated another user. All that a user can find out is if they trust you. Also I am calling it an anonymous web of trust because that is the established term for it. What do you want me to call it? If I came up with another name for it you wouldn't know what protocol I was referring to.
1397 2013-12-07 23:08:54 <justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: I am only calling it what the research paper and guardian project website are calling it
1398 2013-12-07 23:09:04 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: Monday would work best; I need to move some money around (possibly in person) for my new house, then I can get right on a plane
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1400 2013-12-07 23:09:30 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: sounds like pseudonymous
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1402 2013-12-07 23:10:35 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I probably need to return by Thursday night
1403 2013-12-07 23:10:47 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr would you want to fly out early mon morning or sun night?
1404 2013-12-07 23:11:09 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: that may be. They may be naming it something wrong, but that is the name they call it. It is easier to establish the protocol I am referring to by calling it by it's name rather than coming up with a new name that better describes it.
1405 2013-12-07 23:11:21 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I can't do the house stuff until Monday morning, so after that
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1407 2013-12-07 23:12:44 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: keep in mind this is #bitcoin-dev (where the distinction is important), not #anonymous-wot
1408 2013-12-07 23:14:40 <justanotheruser> Does anyone know about how secure "anonymous webs of trust" (which should be called pseudonymous webs of trust) are?
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1418 2013-12-07 23:19:44 <jakov> secure against what?
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1420 2013-12-07 23:20:46 <justanotheruser> jakov: de-anonymizing. Being able to see who rated who.
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1422 2013-12-07 23:21:09 <jakov> that depends on details of the anonymisation
1423 2013-12-07 23:21:33 <jakov> the web of trust part has nothing to do with it, if the anonymity is good yes, otherwise no
1424 2013-12-07 23:21:51 <jakov> unless iv misunderstood
1425 2013-12-07 23:24:00 <justanotheruser> jakov: Well anonymous web of trusts can tell you what your trust level is for a certain public key, but not who rated who, only how many people are between you two. For example if A trusts B, B trusts C, C trusts D and D trusts E, A will know to trust E and that there were 4 ratings between the two, but he won't know who rated who.
1426 2013-12-07 23:24:28 <jakov> the only way you'd know is by knowing ABCD's public keys
1427 2013-12-07 23:24:34 <jakov> so you can verify each signature
1428 2013-12-07 23:24:39 <justanotheruser> jakov: not with anonymous webs of trust
1429 2013-12-07 23:24:49 <jakov> ok
1430 2013-12-07 23:24:55 <justanotheruser> "This paper introduces the concept of anonymous webs of trust – an extension of webs of trust where users can authenticate messages and determine each other’s trust level without compromising their anonymity."
1431 2013-12-07 23:24:58 <justanotheruser> http://www.sps.cs.uni-saarland.de/resources/anonymous-wot.pdf
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