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  17 2013-12-08 00:11:27 <Denim-jdev> Reading page 8 on the recent paper on BTC scalability.  There is an inequality stated to be true due to beta's monotonicity.  Shouldn't the order be reversed though?
  18 2013-12-08 00:11:35 <Ziantos> Any electrum devs on here?
  19 2013-12-08 00:11:46 <Denim-jdev> ie as hash rate increases, the rate of block additions to the main tree should increase, not decrease
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  23 2013-12-08 00:14:06 <sipa> Ziantos: ping ThomasV
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  25 2013-12-08 00:14:23 <sipa> ThomasZ: are you ThomasV?
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  27 2013-12-08 00:15:39 <Ziantos> Anyways, I have a createrawtransaction that works in bitcoind but not in electrum.
  28 2013-12-08 00:15:41 mattco has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  29 2013-12-08 00:16:06 <Ziantos> And I know why but idk if it's a bug or not. :p
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  31 2013-12-08 00:17:01 <justanotheruser> bitcoin isn't being man in the middled again is it?
  32 2013-12-08 00:17:40 mattco has joined
  33 2013-12-08 00:18:02 <Apocalyptic> justanotheruser, that claim doesn't even make sense
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  36 2013-12-08 00:18:19 <justanotheruser> Apocalyptic: sorry, I meant bitcointalk
  37 2013-12-08 00:18:30 <Apocalyptic> oh, possibly
  38 2013-12-08 00:18:38 <ThomasZ> sipa: no
  39 2013-12-08 00:18:51 <justanotheruser> Afraid to log in
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  41 2013-12-08 00:19:15 <Denim-jdev> bitcointalk has a valid certificate
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  43 2013-12-08 00:19:22 <Denim-jdev> so I'm going to guess...no
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  57 2013-12-08 00:48:03 <andytoshi> Denim-jdev: iirc beta is monotonically decreasing, that's why the inequality looks wrong
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  59 2013-12-08 00:48:05 <andytoshi> i noticed that too
  60 2013-12-08 00:48:16 <andytoshi> because beta is 1/E
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  81 2013-12-08 00:59:32 <Denim-jdev> I didn't understand that bit either, because E is the set of all edges
  82 2013-12-08 00:59:36 <Denim-jdev>  is the rate of block addition to the main chain, while  is the rate of block addition to the
  83 2013-12-08 00:59:36 <Denim-jdev> block tree.
  84 2013-12-08 00:59:46 <Denim-jdev> but right after it said: ^
  85 2013-12-08 01:00:11 <Denim-jdev> "beta is the rate of block addition to the main chain"
  86 2013-12-08 01:01:02 <Denim-jdev> since lambda is the rate of block addition to the block tree, it seems like they should have the same monotonic order
  87 2013-12-08 01:01:22 <Denim-jdev> anyway, off to sleep, thanks for pointing that out.  I'll try and look into it / understand it when I wake
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  92 2013-12-08 01:07:00 <andytoshi> Denim-jdev: if you get this, I meant E as the expected value of tau, not the edgeset..
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 113 2013-12-08 01:31:01 <nanotube> andytoshi: might want to leave a message with memoserv or gribble. probably he won't check chanlogs.
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 115 2013-12-08 01:33:12 <andytoshi> oh, good call
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 118 2013-12-08 01:34:29 <andytoshi> ;;later tell Denim-jdev when i said beta is 1/E, i meant E as the expectation of the block time, not a set of edges
 119 2013-12-08 01:34:29 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 121 2013-12-08 01:35:11 <m7a> any web devs who understand how to do bitcoin transaction protocol looking for a project?
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 133 2013-12-08 01:53:55 <Emcy> Increase the default -maxblocksize to 350,000 bytes. Increase the default space for high-priority transactions to 30,000 bytes.
 134 2013-12-08 01:53:57 <Emcy> nice guys
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 189 2013-12-08 03:16:20 <treeprogram> how do I launch the bitcoin client from terminal?
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 227 2013-12-08 03:59:16 <shesek> Can I setup bitcoind to only allow using sendrawtransaction, and do nothing besides that?
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 229 2013-12-08 03:59:55 <kjj> wrapper
 230 2013-12-08 04:00:27 <shesek> that would be helpful If I wanted to limit what 3rd parties could do with it
 231 2013-12-08 04:00:47 <shesek> but I don't want it to relay transactions or store the blockchain at all; just connect to nodes and send them transactions
 232 2013-12-08 04:00:57 <kjj> oh, then no
 233 2013-12-08 04:01:07 <shesek> I just want it a pushtx service that does nothing else
 234 2013-12-08 04:01:44 <kjj> you can piggyback on someone else's pushtx
 235 2013-12-08 04:02:13 lechuga has joined
 236 2013-12-08 04:02:28 <shesek> yeah, that's what I was doing, but I just noticed that bc.i doesn't handle multisig transactions well :-\
 237 2013-12-08 04:02:48 <shesek> (I was sure I tested this, dunno how it went live like that)
 238 2013-12-08 04:03:05 <kjj> what's wrong with running your own node?
 239 2013-12-08 04:03:49 <shesek> nothing wrong about it, but currently I'm on a server with an SSD that don't have enough space to hold the blockchain
 240 2013-12-08 04:05:06 <shesek> so I'll either have to upgrade it (SSDs with lots of space are quite expensive) or get a separate server for that
 241 2013-12-08 04:06:02 <kjj> spinning disks are rather cheap.  actually, SSDs are pretty damn cheap too.  Unless you have to buy a specific brand to fit your server
 242 2013-12-08 04:07:06 <Apocalyptic> it would be nice to have a disablewallet modifier
 243 2013-12-08 04:07:32 <Apocalyptic> would save some RAM space at least for a send-only node
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 245 2013-12-08 04:07:55 <kjj> less than you'd think
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 247 2013-12-08 04:08:27 <Apocalyptic> I estimate it at a couple of hundreds Mb, as litecoind does
 248 2013-12-08 04:08:45 <kjj> last I checked, maxconnections was the dominant memory user
 249 2013-12-08 04:08:54 <Apocalyptic> obviously
 250 2013-12-08 04:09:34 <kjj> heh.  it wasn't obvious to me.  I still can't fathom what that memory is being used for
 251 2013-12-08 04:10:39 <Apocalyptic> maintaining all the data structures relative to the peers, the state of their blockchain, the internal socket/connection data (should be minimal though) I guess
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 253 2013-12-08 04:11:33 <kjj> yeah, still don't see how that can be more than a couple dozen K per connection, hundreds with buffering
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 256 2013-12-08 04:15:00 <lechuga> is there a suggested web wallet library to use with node.js?
 257 2013-12-08 04:15:15 <shesek> lechuga, bitcoinjs-lib, vbuterin's fork
 258 2013-12-08 04:15:29 <lechuga> i dont need to run bitcoinjs-server as well?
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 260 2013-12-08 04:16:28 <shesek> depends on what you need, bitcoinjs-lib is not a server, but it can handle keys/address and constructing/signing transactions
 261 2013-12-08 04:16:54 <shesek> bitcoinjs-server wasn't working very well for me when I tried that, but you can talk with bitcoind's api instead
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 263 2013-12-08 04:17:49 <lechuga> thx, have u looked at coinpunk?
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 265 2013-12-08 04:20:12 <shesek> nope, I haven't heard of it until now
 266 2013-12-08 04:20:18 <lechuga> looks interesting
 267 2013-12-08 04:21:12 <shesek> seems like its mostly an UI on top of bitcoind's api
 268 2013-12-08 04:23:06 <lechuga> so people making stuff like satoshibet or whatever
 269 2013-12-08 04:23:13 <lechuga> ar ethye most likely just running bitcoind
 270 2013-12-08 04:23:21 <lechuga> and sending it rpc commands
 271 2013-12-08 04:23:24 <lechuga> are they*
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 273 2013-12-08 04:26:26 <shesek> I don't know, but probably, yes
 274 2013-12-08 04:26:53 <shesek> if that's all you really need, there's a "bitcoin" package on npm that can communicate with bitcoin'd jsonrpc api
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 277 2013-12-08 04:29:00 <lechuga> cool
 278 2013-12-08 04:29:10 <lechuga> seems like thats my move, thx
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 282 2013-12-08 04:31:14 <sunspotbtc> can anyone tell me who signed the latest 0.8.6 test release http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/bitcoin/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.6/test/SHA256SUMS.asc
 283 2013-12-08 04:31:24 <sunspotbtc> 7BF6E212
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 286 2013-12-08 04:32:19 <sunspotbtc> I'm trying to document bitcoind crashes on ubuntu but want to make sure I'm validating the source
 287 2013-12-08 04:32:33 <sunspotbtc> and that shasum wasn't signed by gavin's sig that I can tell
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 289 2013-12-08 04:32:56 <Apocalyptic> sunspotbtc, it's Gavin
 290 2013-12-08 04:33:04 <Apocalyptic> http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0x7BF6E212
 291 2013-12-08 04:33:31 <sunspotbtc> oh!
 292 2013-12-08 04:33:46 <sunspotbtc> http://bitcoin.org/gavinandresen.asc is outdated
 293 2013-12-08 04:33:53 <sunspotbtc> Apocalyptic++ thanks
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 295 2013-12-08 04:34:08 <Apocalyptic> yeah, it seems he has a new one since November, 1st
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 321 2013-12-08 05:01:57 <lechuga> whats the memory usage expectations for bitcoind
 322 2013-12-08 05:02:05 <lechuga> what are the*
 323 2013-12-08 05:02:44 <lechuga> 1GB? 4GB?
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 325 2013-12-08 05:02:57 <lechuga> im thru late november and its already taking 36% of 1gb
 326 2013-12-08 05:03:06 <lechuga> late november 2010*
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 329 2013-12-08 05:08:39 <andytoshi> you mean disk usage?
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 331 2013-12-08 05:08:52 <andytoshi> my .bitcoin is a little over 15Gb
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 333 2013-12-08 05:12:44 <lechuga> no i mean ram
 334 2013-12-08 05:13:18 <lechuga> 15205 andy      20   0 1256m 519m 9004 S  5.7 50.7   1:50.39 bitcoind
 335 2013-12-08 05:13:22 <lechuga> 50.7% of 1gb
 336 2013-12-08 05:13:46 <lechuga> its on june 2011
 337 2013-12-08 05:14:27 <lechuga> i assume its not too heavy on ram in steadystate when im all synced
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 342 2013-12-08 05:25:39 <Luke-Jr> lechuga: semi-random during IBD for now
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 346 2013-12-08 05:32:19 <lechuga> y random
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 352 2013-12-08 05:45:30 <lechuga> whats the deal with the testnet
 353 2013-12-08 05:45:36 <lechuga> is it just a big parallel blockchain or wat
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 363 2013-12-08 06:13:29 <lechuga> looks like yes
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 366 2013-12-08 06:21:43 <shesek> yes, its a parallel blockchain with some different magic bytes and worthless coins used for testing
 367 2013-12-08 06:23:17 <lechuga> are transactions allowed to have outputs > inputs or something?
 368 2013-12-08 06:24:07 <shesek> no, all the rules are exactly the same as the regular main blockchain
 369 2013-12-08 06:24:23 <lechuga> so how do i get coins to work with on testnet?
 370 2013-12-08 06:24:25 <shesek> (except for the difficulty that drops to 1 after 20 minutes without a block)
 371 2013-12-08 06:24:41 <shesek> you either mine some, which is very easy on testnet
 372 2013-12-08 06:24:45 <shesek> or use a faucet
 373 2013-12-08 06:24:53 <shesek> like http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
 374 2013-12-08 06:24:54 <lechuga> faucet eh
 375 2013-12-08 06:25:10 <lechuga> ah cool
 376 2013-12-08 06:25:45 <shesek> you can run bitcoin-qt/bitcoind with -testnet to get it working on testnet
 377 2013-12-08 06:25:57 <lechuga> yeah saw that part
 378 2013-12-08 06:26:08 <lechuga> is the parallel blockchain the same size as production? :)
 379 2013-12-08 06:26:19 <shesek> nah, its much smalle
 380 2013-12-08 06:26:20 <shesek> r
 381 2013-12-08 06:26:37 <lechuga> can it coexist with prod blockchain
 382 2013-12-08 06:26:46 <lechuga> like can atoggle -testnet and have sane things happen
 383 2013-12-08 06:26:50 <lechuga> can i*
 384 2013-12-08 06:26:55 <shesek> <500mb
 385 2013-12-08 06:27:20 <shesek> yes, all the data is saved separately
 386 2013-12-08 06:27:31 <shesek> in a "testnet3" directory inside your bitcoin directory
 387 2013-12-08 06:27:32 <lechuga> nice
 388 2013-12-08 06:27:55 <shesek> and the "production blockchain" is usually referred to as mainnet
 389 2013-12-08 06:28:00 <lechuga> ic
 390 2013-12-08 06:29:07 <lechuga> i think im going to write a gambling portal just to get a good understanding for operating a mktplace
 391 2013-12-08 06:29:11 <lechuga> then get more interesting
 392 2013-12-08 06:31:12 <lechuga> took me half a day to figure out how to use node.js and get user account mgmt setup with express + mongo + passport
 393 2013-12-08 06:31:22 <lechuga> last time i did webdev tomcat+jsp was the hotness
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 463 2013-12-08 08:39:23 <HaltingState> waht is a non-portable wallet?
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 465 2013-12-08 08:39:41 <HaltingState> configure: WARNING: Found Berkeley DB other than 4.8; wallets opened by this build will not be portable!
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 469 2013-12-08 08:48:22 <ThomasZ> HaltingState: I think its a bit of a misguided warning;  it is meant to warn you that if the client is build with another version of the DB layer it may not be possibe to open your wallet.
 470 2013-12-08 08:49:15 <ThomasZ> naturally, its pratically impossible to get berkley db 4.8, its way too old.  And I think they are more compatible that the warning states.
 471 2013-12-08 08:49:20 <HaltingState> so if i use later version of bitcoin
 472 2013-12-08 08:49:26 <HaltingState> i might be doomed or have painful experiences
 473 2013-12-08 08:50:26 <ThomasZ> If you use the same version of the DB software it will work.
 474 2013-12-08 08:50:35 c0rw has joined
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 476 2013-12-08 08:52:45 <ThomasZ> HaltingState: also, there is a 'backup wallet'.  I haven't tried it, but I surely hope that avoids the versioning problem.
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 479 2013-12-08 08:53:53 <gmaxwell> ThomasZ: you're giving bad advice there.
 480 2013-12-08 08:54:23 <ThomasZ> gmaxwell: please correct me
 481 2013-12-08 08:54:27 <gmaxwell> it you use bdb >4.8 you will not be able to open the wallet again with the published binaries, they're incompatible.
 482 2013-12-08 08:55:21 <gmaxwell> it's not impossible to use the 4.8 bdb, there is a ppa for ubuntu with it (though I can't walk you through it, not being an unbuntu user myself.)
 483 2013-12-08 08:55:47 mapppum has joined
 484 2013-12-08 08:55:50 <gmaxwell> and no, the backup wallet doesn't avoid the versioning issue.
 485 2013-12-08 08:56:15 <ThomasZ> for someone building the binary himself, thats not too big a deal, though.  I think its Ok to use a newer version since its already hard to use 4.8 now...
 486 2013-12-08 08:56:41 <ThomasZ> hmm, not being able to do a backup sounds like a problem that should be solved, no?
 487 2013-12-08 08:56:58 <gmaxwell> limitation of BDB, and part of why all the official binaries are 4.8  (was also the case that the never version was a fair bit slower, but thats no longer relevant)
 488 2013-12-08 08:57:13 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 489 2013-12-08 08:57:17 <gmaxwell> ThomasZ: you can do a backup fine, it can't be read with an older version of bdb than wrote it.
 490 2013-12-08 08:57:36 <gmaxwell> which, again, means you can't go back to the published binaries.
 491 2013-12-08 08:57:40 <ThomasZ> if you can't restore it, its not really a backup.
 492 2013-12-08 08:57:50 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 493 2013-12-08 08:58:26 <ThomasZ> for reference, debian ships 5.1
 494 2013-12-08 08:58:37 <gmaxwell> ThomasZ: I'm struggling to figure out what you're misreading in my comment there.
 495 2013-12-08 08:59:13 <ThomasZ> I think its not a mis-read.  I understand your point.
 496 2013-12-08 08:59:42 <gmaxwell> ThomasZ: you can restore it fine, you cannot restore it using an older version of bdb than your software is linked against. Bitcoin-qt is standardized on 4.8 and our binaries ship against 4.8 (and, considering the compatibility problems and licensing snafu, will likely continue to link against 4.8 until we no longer use bdb at all)
 497 2013-12-08 09:00:14 <gmaxwell> If you're using a non-standard build of bitcoin built against an incompatible bdb, "you get to keep the pieces"
 498 2013-12-08 09:00:59 <gmaxwell> and sure, if you're always building your own binaries, then you're good to go.
 499 2013-12-08 09:01:38 <gmaxwell> (though bitcoin likely a bit under-tested with bdb 5.x)
 500 2013-12-08 09:03:13 <ThomasZ> I understand this.
 501 2013-12-08 09:03:52 <gmaxwell> K.
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 508 2013-12-08 09:10:48 <ThomasZ> The point I was trying to make is that because 4.8 is marked obsolete by even the most slow moving linux distro (debian) years ago, I think the strategy you outline is tricky. Having your 'backup' only work on the many years old unmaintained software makes it not really a backup in the traditional sense.
 509 2013-12-08 09:11:09 <ThomasZ> What about exporting it to a different format? Be it xml based or whatever.
 510 2013-12-08 09:11:28 <ThomasZ> which can be imported by any future bitcoin client, irregardless of DB version
 511 2013-12-08 09:12:20 <ThomasZ> also when the client might switch to another DB layer.
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 517 2013-12-08 09:19:53 <gmaxwell> No BDB we are willing to use is maintained anymore: the licensing in the latest versions were changed to a license we're not willing to use in the software. At some point when we change wallet formats we'll ship a migration tool. Bitcoin git also has the dumpwallet export which writes out ascii.
 518 2013-12-08 09:20:16 random_cat has joined
 519 2013-12-08 09:21:18 <ThomasZ> ah, that dumbwallet export sounds like a fantastic solution to the problem indeed.
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 525 2013-12-08 09:31:26 <ThomasZ> gmaxwell: since the removal of the qmake buildsystem, how do people build bitcoin on Windows?
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 547 2013-12-08 10:06:12 <sturles> gmaxwell: Does dumpwallet keep transactions between accounts?
 548 2013-12-08 10:06:43 <sturles> gmaxwell: Last time I checked it only dumped private keys.
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 550 2013-12-08 10:07:07 <sturles> And some meta information (account, time, etc).
 551 2013-12-08 10:09:31 <sipa> dumpwallet does not dump tx information at all, only key information
 552 2013-12-08 10:10:02 <sipa> so it doesn't retain "from account" or comments
 553 2013-12-08 10:10:14 <sipa> and requires a rescan
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 565 2013-12-08 10:37:42 <ThomasZ> Maybe worth writing a task on the tasktracker about the Backup feature needing some tender loving care to avoid not being able to do an import later.
 566 2013-12-08 10:38:00 <ThomasZ> ?
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 647 2013-12-08 12:45:45 <Plarkplark_> hi
 648 2013-12-08 12:46:06 <Plarkplark_> does running a bitcoind node on a public addr. space address without mining help the network?
 649 2013-12-08 12:46:19 <sipa> yes
 650 2013-12-08 12:46:30 <sipa> you verify and relay blocks and transactions
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 652 2013-12-08 12:46:52 <Plarkplark_> ok. I have 48GB memory in a xen box available and a lot of storage, then ill spool up 5 nodes. Itś spare capacity anyway. :)
 653 2013-12-08 12:46:52 <sipa> and can help lightweight clients find their transactions
 654 2013-12-08 12:47:00 fanquake has left ()
 655 2013-12-08 12:47:10 <sipa> better run one, and increase its max number of connections
 656 2013-12-08 12:47:18 <Luke-Jr> ^
 657 2013-12-08 12:47:27 <Luke-Jr> don't think there's much benefit to multiple nodes at the same place
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 660 2013-12-08 12:47:39 <Plarkplark_> different ip addresses though.
 661 2013-12-08 12:47:46 <jaakkos> what is the default maximum?
 662 2013-12-08 12:47:50 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: still
 663 2013-12-08 12:47:51 <Plarkplark_> But whatever is the best :) ill do that then
 664 2013-12-08 12:47:54 <sipa> by default 125 i think
 665 2013-12-08 12:48:02 <sipa> you can increase it to ~1000
 666 2013-12-08 12:48:11 <Plarkplark_> ok with 48Gb mem and 8 cores what would you advise
 667 2013-12-08 12:48:17 michael_lee has joined
 668 2013-12-08 12:48:19 <jaakkos> i've been running for a few weeks, got around 40-70 connections
 669 2013-12-08 12:48:46 <sipa> keeping it running for a long time helps, as it means seeders will notice you're reliable
 670 2013-12-08 12:48:50 <Luke-Jr> you can go higher if you hack the code to set FD_SETSIZE :P
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 672 2013-12-08 12:49:32 <Plarkplark_> normale non-mining nodes do validate the nonce+hash right?
 673 2013-12-08 12:49:40 <Plarkplark_> this is the "verifications" you see
 674 2013-12-08 12:49:41 <Luke-Jr> of course
 675 2013-12-08 12:49:42 <sipa> they validate *everything*
 676 2013-12-08 12:49:46 <Luke-Jr> also the ECDSA signatures
 677 2013-12-08 12:49:47 <Plarkplark_> ok good
 678 2013-12-08 12:49:48 <sipa> much much more than that
 679 2013-12-08 12:49:48 <Luke-Jr> etc
 680 2013-12-08 12:50:01 <sipa> also, set your -dbcache higher than the default
 681 2013-12-08 12:50:10 <sipa> it takes a number in MiB
 682 2013-12-08 12:50:22 <Plarkplark_> what is default, and what would you recommend?
 683 2013-12-08 12:50:29 <Plarkplark_> its 500mb up/down network.
 684 2013-12-08 12:50:33 <Plarkplark_> 1tb traffic limit
 685 2013-12-08 12:50:51 <sipa> dbcache just makes the node validate things faster, it doesn't affect bandwidth
 686 2013-12-08 12:51:09 <sipa> -dbcache=2000 or so if you can spare 2 GB
 687 2013-12-08 12:51:17 <sipa> higher doesn't make much difference
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 689 2013-12-08 12:52:12 <Plarkplark_> kk thx
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 700 2013-12-08 13:08:55 <diki> As much as I do not like gmaxwell, his idea of a POW based on ECDSA was interesting. Is it possible to use ECDSA as a POW algorithm?
 701 2013-12-08 13:09:36 <sipa> yes
 702 2013-12-08 13:12:25 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 703 2013-12-08 13:14:30 <diki> And what would for instance be the use of the private key in such a POW?
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 707 2013-12-08 13:19:52 <nsh> which idea, diki?
 708 2013-12-08 13:20:01 Chriz has left ()
 709 2013-12-08 13:20:15 <diki> nsh:You just joined, how on earth did you read my previous message?
 710 2013-12-08 13:20:18 Casimir1904 has joined
 711 2013-12-08 13:20:31 <diki> the log?
 712 2013-12-08 13:20:53 <nsh> services fakes a quit/join when you identify
 713 2013-12-08 13:20:58 <nsh> i was always here :)
 714 2013-12-08 13:21:15 <nsh> (well, when it sets cloaks)
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 716 2013-12-08 13:21:44 <diki> gmaxwell was well...commenting on the altcoin forum when he suggested we should try something like ECDSA for a proof of work algorithm
 717 2013-12-08 13:22:23 <nsh> can you link to the thread?
 718 2013-12-08 13:22:37 <diki> Sorry, I don't remember which thread it was, and I recently cleared my history.
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 720 2013-12-08 13:22:54 <diki> nsh:You want to pursue the idea?
 721 2013-12-08 13:23:23 * nsh is just curious :)
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 728 2013-12-08 13:27:39 <sipa> diki: there would be no private key
 729 2013-12-08 13:27:56 <sipa> it's just the same algorithm as verification, but it's not a real signature or a real key that is involved
 730 2013-12-08 13:27:58 <edulix> diki: but what is the advantage of using ECDSA for PoW?
 731 2013-12-08 13:28:10 <diki> edulix:I have no idea. Not my idea.
 732 2013-12-08 13:28:18 <diki> However it interested me enough to write here.
 733 2013-12-08 13:28:24 <sipa> making the world spend resources to research fast ECDSA verification, of course :p
 734 2013-12-08 13:28:25 <ThomasV> does bitcoind 0.8.5 work with txindex=1?
 735 2013-12-08 13:28:31 <sipa> ThomasV: yes
 736 2013-12-08 13:29:05 <diki> Fast verification using the CPU, sure. GPU verification? I am not sure many would like that.
 737 2013-12-08 13:29:18 <sipa> ?
 738 2013-12-08 13:29:29 Casimir1904 has joined
 739 2013-12-08 13:29:40 <edulix> ThomasV: what does txindex=1 mean? :P
 740 2013-12-08 13:29:50 <sipa> let it maintain a transaction index
 741 2013-12-08 13:29:51 <diki> Well a lot of GPUs don't raise the fan speed automatically when there is load. I personally have to do it manually for any OpenCL business.
 742 2013-12-08 13:30:18 <sipa> diki: it's not just about you :)
 743 2013-12-08 13:30:28 <diki> Imagine somebody frying the card just from running Bitcoin-qt
 744 2013-12-08 13:30:35 <sipa> just having people spend time to research improvement verification speed would be a good thing
 745 2013-12-08 13:32:11 <edulix> diki: well, if you can fry the card by using it, then it's a hardware problem, right?
 746 2013-12-08 13:32:25 <sipa> also, we're talking about a very hypothetical thing
 747 2013-12-08 13:32:36 <sipa> in that hypothetical world there may not be a bitcoin-qt :)
 748 2013-12-08 13:32:43 <diki> sipa:lol
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 750 2013-12-08 13:32:48 <sipa> i'm quite serious
 751 2013-12-08 13:33:20 <sipa> it's just an interesting idea - i don't think it will ever happen for bitcoin
 752 2013-12-08 13:33:24 <diki> Are you implying something about -Qt?
 753 2013-12-08 13:33:48 <sipa> well for starters, i think bitcoin-qt should evolve into just a wallet application
 754 2013-12-08 13:33:57 <sipa> that optionally supports running a full node too
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 756 2013-12-08 13:34:11 <wumpus> I'd like it to evolve into a full node application
 757 2013-12-08 13:34:26 <diki> sipa:Sounds ok.
 758 2013-12-08 13:34:30 <sipa> wumpus: hmm?
 759 2013-12-08 13:34:38 <diki> I imagine the opposite should be true, just a node.
 760 2013-12-08 13:34:48 <wumpus> there's so many wallets now
 761 2013-12-08 13:35:09 <wumpus> any of them could be combined with a full wallet
 762 2013-12-08 13:35:15 <wumpus> full node*
 763 2013-12-08 13:35:24 <sipa> bundling the wallet with the node means we get some incentive for people to run a full node
 764 2013-12-08 13:35:33 <sipa> but it comes at the cost of a rather bad user experience
 765 2013-12-08 13:35:41 mynameis has quit (Quit: mynameis)
 766 2013-12-08 13:35:47 <sipa> yeah, i'd just like to see them being able to run independently
 767 2013-12-08 13:35:52 <sipa> you run either, or both
 768 2013-12-08 13:35:55 <wumpus> so, why not ship multibit with a bitcoind daemon that optionally runs onthe background?
 769 2013-12-08 13:36:04 <sipa> right
 770 2013-12-08 13:36:18 <sipa> or armory... oh, wait
 771 2013-12-08 13:36:40 <wumpus> right
 772 2013-12-08 13:37:49 <wumpus> so I really see bitcoin-qt as a full node application, with optional wallet, mostly for power users
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 775 2013-12-08 13:40:07 <diki> I wanted to use alternative wallets, however they should have supported the wallet file format used by Bitcoind/-Qt
 776 2013-12-08 13:40:27 <diki> I didn't want to have to export private keys and import elsewhere, just plug the wallet.dat file and go.
 777 2013-12-08 13:40:43 <sipa> i'm very glad nobody bothered to do that
 778 2013-12-08 13:40:46 <wumpus> so just use a transaction to send the coins to the new wallet
 779 2013-12-08 13:40:48 <sipa> wallet.dat should die
 780 2013-12-08 13:40:51 <wumpus> yep
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 785 2013-12-08 13:41:07 <diki> sipa:Something else in mind?
 786 2013-12-08 13:41:23 <sipa> yes, though not the time to make it happen
 787 2013-12-08 13:41:30 <wumpus> many people mess around with exporting individual private keys in bitcoin-qt and mess up badly, it rarely ends well
 788 2013-12-08 13:41:43 <wumpus> really people: don't be cheap and just use a transaction
 789 2013-12-08 13:41:55 <diki> A wallet format that is supported by all current and future wallets would be nice.
 790 2013-12-08 13:42:00 <diki> so it can be cross-application
 791 2013-12-08 13:42:16 <sipa> i don't think we've even come to an agreement what a wallet is
 792 2013-12-08 13:42:24 <wumpus> right sipa
 793 2013-12-08 13:42:40 <sipa> and we certainly don't have established best practices for dealing with one
 794 2013-12-08 13:42:42 KillYourTV has joined
 795 2013-12-08 13:43:10 <sipa> until that time, i'm much more in favor of a common wallet interchange format (which you export/import to), than an actual common wallet database format
 796 2013-12-08 13:43:18 <ThomasV> sipa: getrawtransaction returns an error with the genesis block's coinbase
 797 2013-12-08 13:43:24 <sipa> ThomasV: working as intended
 798 2013-12-08 13:43:37 <sipa> ThomasV: the genesis block doesn't exist from the point of the network rules
 799 2013-12-08 13:43:42 <sipa> (it can't be spent, for example)
 800 2013-12-08 13:43:50 <ThomasV> oh
 801 2013-12-08 13:43:57 <ThomasV> didn't know that
 802 2013-12-08 13:43:59 <wumpus> the genesis block's coin base is ignored in all practical matters, so it is consistent
 803 2013-12-08 13:44:21 <diki> In the wiki it says that is because of a quirk
 804 2013-12-08 13:44:26 <sipa> maybe
 805 2013-12-08 13:44:26 <diki> it doesnt go into detail why
 806 2013-12-08 13:44:31 <sipa> maybe it was intentional
 807 2013-12-08 13:44:34 <sipa> nobody knows
 808 2013-12-08 13:44:58 <sipa> but changing it would be equal to giving satoshi a red button "FORK THE NETWORK"
 809 2013-12-08 13:45:11 <diki> how so?
 810 2013-12-08 13:45:17 <wumpus> there's no point in changing it
 811 2013-12-08 13:45:23 <sipa> (if he tried to spend the genesis block's coinbase, new nodes would accept it and old nodes wouldn't)
 812 2013-12-08 13:45:44 <wumpus> a lot of risk and no gain, except for satoshi who would be 50BTC richer :p
 813 2013-12-08 13:46:08 <sipa> i think the risk is minimal
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 815 2013-12-08 13:46:16 <diki> I am pretty sure if it ever came to that, all would have upgraded
 816 2013-12-08 13:46:37 <sipa> though i now envision satoshi waiting for that moment somewhere in a basement, ready to unleash his anger onto the network
 817 2013-12-08 13:46:40 <diki> But I agree, he has X bitcoins, waay more than 50, he would not become richer or poorer with them
 818 2013-12-08 13:46:50 <wumpus> yes, I think the risk of satoshi actuallly spending those coins would be minimal but there is just no point
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 820 2013-12-08 13:48:12 <diki> I have a feeling we might see satoshi signing a message with the privkey of at least the first address(1AZ1)
 821 2013-12-08 13:48:19 <diki> sometime in the future
 822 2013-12-08 13:48:40 <diki> Just to let us know he is there and is watching
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 824 2013-12-08 13:49:07 <sipa> wumpus: btw, when --disable-wallet (at compile time) makes it into head, i think we could move libsecp256k1 into the bitcoin repo (like leveldb), and enable it with some experimental flag that disables wallet and mining
 825 2013-12-08 13:49:52 <edulix> diki: or maybe the FBI killed satoshi! :-P
 826 2013-12-08 13:50:07 <diki> My "hunches" are rarely wrong.
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 828 2013-12-08 13:50:45 <wumpus> sipa: I've just merged disable-wallet 
 829 2013-12-08 13:50:47 <diki> To give you an example, when I one day thought I'd find a block with 100% certainty, it so happened that I found two
 830 2013-12-08 13:51:18 <sipa> though a autotools build system for libsecp256k1 would be nice
 831 2013-12-08 13:51:22 <wumpus> sipa: and that sounds like a good idea
 832 2013-12-08 13:52:06 <wumpus> disable-wallet also implies disable mining right now, as the current mining code always wants to send the reward to an own address
 833 2013-12-08 13:52:22 <sipa> wumpus: even getblocktemplate?
 834 2013-12-08 13:52:23 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it shouldn't
 835 2013-12-08 13:52:46 <sipa> cfields said he'd do that (he wrote a prototype at some point), but he seems not to have found time recently
 836 2013-12-08 13:52:47 <wumpus> sec256k1 would be a nice performance improvement
 837 2013-12-08 13:53:16 <wumpus> and relying less on openssl by having that code in our own repo is good too
 838 2013-12-08 13:53:25 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: mining hasn't used "send the reward to an own address" for years now
 839 2013-12-08 13:53:31 <Luke-Jr> in bitcoind
 840 2013-12-08 13:53:37 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: are you sure?
 841 2013-12-08 13:53:51 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: internally, it used code for it, but the actual exposed functionality hasn't
 842 2013-12-08 13:53:51 <sipa> getwork and the internal miner need an address to send to
 843 2013-12-08 13:53:53 <wumpus> to me it looked like the code relies on the wallet, but I didn't look very deeply
 844 2013-12-08 13:53:58 <sipa> but getblocktemplate doesn't, i hope?
 845 2013-12-08 13:54:01 <Luke-Jr> getwork and internal-miner are obsolet
 846 2013-12-08 13:54:25 <diki> sad to see them go
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 848 2013-12-08 13:54:28 <Luke-Jr> AFAIK jgarzik rerouted the code for GBT to not use it internally, when he did no-wallet
 849 2013-12-08 13:54:38 <wumpus> hm you're right
 850 2013-12-08 13:54:58 <edulix> is there any plan to port the client to qt5?
 851 2013-12-08 13:54:59 <wumpus> I thought getblocktemplate used the pMinigKey as wel
 852 2013-12-08 13:55:09 Bituser123 has joined
 853 2013-12-08 13:55:15 <Luke-Jr> edulix: it's essentially done, just needs build system work
 854 2013-12-08 13:55:22 <wumpus> edulix: that's been done a long long time ago
 855 2013-12-08 13:55:24 <edulix> Luke-Jr: nice
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 857 2013-12-08 13:55:35 <diki> Was the GUI revamped?
 858 2013-12-08 13:55:39 <Arnavion> If only you didn't switch to autotools...
 859 2013-12-08 13:55:49 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: autotools is more important than Qt5 right now..
 860 2013-12-08 13:55:52 <wumpus> getblocktemplate could be moved out of the libbitcoin_wallet.a then
 861 2013-12-08 13:55:53 <sipa> the new build system will soon support qt5 too
 862 2013-12-08 13:55:54 <Arnavion> Heh
 863 2013-12-08 13:55:56 <Luke-Jr> nobody actually uses Qt5 in practice
 864 2013-12-08 13:56:14 <wumpus> yes there is a pull to support qt5: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3346
 865 2013-12-08 13:56:16 <wumpus> test it please
 866 2013-12-08 13:56:18 * Luke-Jr should test that qt5 PR since he's apparently one of few people to have a Qt4+Qt5 system
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 868 2013-12-08 13:56:30 <wumpus> I've done that and it worked great for me
 869 2013-12-08 13:56:32 * sipa hasn't built the Qt client in months...
 870 2013-12-08 13:56:38 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: how does it decide which to build against?
 871 2013-12-08 13:56:44 <wumpus> Luke-Jr:  read the PR :p
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 873 2013-12-08 13:57:02 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: looks like it conflicts with my cleanups :<
 874 2013-12-08 13:57:06 <wumpus> it chooses qt4 by default afaik
 875 2013-12-08 13:57:32 <edulix> before autotools, what was the build system bitcoin-qt used, cmake?
 876 2013-12-08 13:57:33 <Arnavion> Oh nobody told me there was a pullreq
 877 2013-12-08 13:57:34 <wumpus> I'd rather have it the other way around, use the highest qt version available by default, but this is more compatible
 878 2013-12-08 13:57:36 <Luke-Jr> edulix: none
 879 2013-12-08 13:57:37 <Arnavion> Time to test
 880 2013-12-08 13:57:50 <wumpus> qmake
 881 2013-12-08 13:58:07 <Luke-Jr> well, -qt used qmake right, but bitcoind was just bare Makefiles
 882 2013-12-08 13:58:25 <sipa> there were 4 separate build systems, really :)
 883 2013-12-08 13:58:35 <Luke-Jr> 2 more? :o
 884 2013-12-08 13:58:35 <wumpus> yes :)
 885 2013-12-08 13:58:40 * edulix would have suggested cmake but no system is perfect
 886 2013-12-08 13:58:44 <sipa> 3 makefiles and qmake
 887 2013-12-08 13:58:51 <sipa> they were maintained independently
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 890 2013-12-08 14:00:11 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: newer ubuntus come with qt5 by default
 891 2013-12-08 14:00:29 <Luke-Jr> weird, does something actually use it?
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 894 2013-12-08 14:01:54 <wumpus> I have no clue
 895 2013-12-08 14:02:33 <Luke-Jr> it's sad how long the Qt3Support module has survived
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 900 2013-12-08 14:03:36 <wumpus> but Qt3 had a much larger difference to Qt4 than Qt4 to Qt5
 901 2013-12-08 14:04:14 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: not if you cvnsider Qt3Support to be part of Qt4 ;)
 902 2013-12-08 14:04:24 <wumpus> hehe
 903 2013-12-08 14:04:28 <Luke-Jr> Qt5 removed the module; problem is most software still uses it :/
 904 2013-12-08 14:04:41 <sipa> in that regard, Qt4 was just a superset of Qt3? :p
 905 2013-12-08 14:04:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, you still had to do some regex to get Qt3 code to build
 906 2013-12-08 14:05:09 <Luke-Jr> IIRC
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 909 2013-12-08 14:06:47 <wumpus> ah, a way of postponing having to do the real porting work
 910 2013-12-08 14:08:32 <edulix> Luke-Jr: but.. did bitcoin-qt use qt3support?
 911 2013-12-08 14:09:04 <sipa> bitcoin-qt was always qt4, no?
 912 2013-12-08 14:09:09 <wumpus> no edulix
 913 2013-12-08 14:09:39 <wumpus> qt3 is a long time ago, cryptocurrencies were still science fiction then
 914 2013-12-08 14:09:57 <sipa> they no longer are? :o
 915 2013-12-08 14:10:04 <sipa> we're just living in the future now!
 916 2013-12-08 14:10:19 <wumpus> yes it does feel like that sometimes
 917 2013-12-08 14:10:30 <Arnavion> Looks like you guys are using CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS internally in the build somewhere...
 918 2013-12-08 14:10:51 <Arnavion> If I override them -O gets unset
 919 2013-12-08 14:10:59 <wumpus> are you sure? I use CXXFLAGS="-Dsomething" ./configure all the time
 920 2013-12-08 14:11:13 <diki> wait
 921 2013-12-08 14:11:19 <Arnavion> I got a bajillion warnings about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lei4NPVUws
 922 2013-12-08 14:11:20 <diki> wasnt Bitcoin using wxwidgets before?
 923 2013-12-08 14:11:22 <Arnavion> Uhh
 924 2013-12-08 14:11:30 <diki> And only afterwards used Qt4?
 925 2013-12-08 14:11:39 <AtashiCon> wumpus: I got a bajillion warnings about   warning _FORTIFY_SOURCE requires compiling with optimization (-O)
 926 2013-12-08 14:11:45 <AtashiCon> (copy-paste over VNC didn't work)
 927 2013-12-08 14:11:47 <sipa> diki: bitcoin used wx, bitcoin-qt uses qt, bitcoind uses neither
 928 2013-12-08 14:12:09 <sipa> diki: bitcoin-qt replaced bitcoin since 0.5.0
 929 2013-12-08 14:12:20 <diki> Yes, I remember.
 930 2013-12-08 14:12:21 lclc has joined
 931 2013-12-08 14:12:28 <diki> I was around when 0.3.24 got released
 932 2013-12-08 14:12:39 <sipa> i remember 0.3.19
 933 2013-12-08 14:12:42 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: it's expected behaviour to override defaults with user-provided CXXFLAGS
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 935 2013-12-08 14:13:03 <Arnavion> Luke-Jr: But it seems to unset the opt flag if I do that
 936 2013-12-08 14:13:08 <Arnavion> Might have only been in the leveldb subtree
 937 2013-12-08 14:13:11 <Arnavion> Let me check
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 939 2013-12-08 14:13:26 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: the "opt flag" is just a CXXFLAGS default
 940 2013-12-08 14:14:01 <Arnavion> I think I wasn't clear
 941 2013-12-08 14:14:19 <Luke-Jr> btw, the correct way to override vars for configure is after the ./configure: ./configure CXXFLAGS='blah'
 942 2013-12-08 14:14:35 <sipa> orly?
 943 2013-12-08 14:14:42 <Arnavion> First tiem I heard that
 944 2013-12-08 14:15:46 <Luke-Jr> at least according to --help's Usage :p
 945 2013-12-08 14:16:08 <Arnavion> Makes no difference
 946 2013-12-08 14:16:11 <Arnavion> What I was saying was
 947 2013-12-08 14:16:23 <Arnavion> Usually the build system (Makefile) doesn't use CXXFLAGS internally
 948 2013-12-08 14:16:34 <Arnavion> Instead it just appends it to the flags it defines by default
 949 2013-12-08 14:16:40 <Arnavion> such as -O
 950 2013-12-08 14:16:47 <diki> Luke-Jr:Has worked for me without issuing ./configure
 951 2013-12-08 14:16:54 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: that's not how any autotools works
 952 2013-12-08 14:17:17 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: autotools just defaults CXXFLAGS to -O2 -g, and lets you override/replace that
 953 2013-12-08 14:17:38 <Arnavion> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/8986a1369f572e2d4f50da91ddb172dc37e83abf   For example
 954 2013-12-08 14:17:56 <Arnavion> This way user's CXXFLAGS can be appended to the existing commandline
 955 2013-12-08 14:18:04 <sipa> leveldb is separate
 956 2013-12-08 14:18:13 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: that's for special build stuff, not for optimisations/debug/etc
 957 2013-12-08 14:18:13 <Arnavion> I'm illustrating the concept
 958 2013-12-08 14:18:22 <Arnavion> I see
 959 2013-12-08 14:18:23 <Luke-Jr> -D* would be appended in all cases, certainly
 960 2013-12-08 14:18:25 <sipa> we're trying to not touch leveldb's code as much as possible
 961 2013-12-08 14:18:40 <Luke-Jr> and -l -I etc
 962 2013-12-08 14:18:47 <Arnavion> So you're saying if I override C(XX)FLAGS I should always give -O ?
 963 2013-12-08 14:18:49 <Luke-Jr> but user preference things like -O and -g are overridden
 964 2013-12-08 14:18:52 <Luke-Jr> if you want -O
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 966 2013-12-08 14:19:12 <Arnavion> So if I don't want to change the default -O, then?
 967 2013-12-08 14:19:17 <Luke-Jr> sure
 968 2013-12-08 14:19:20 <Luke-Jr> personally I build with -O0 -ggdb :D
 969 2013-12-08 14:19:32 <Arnavion> Then what? I should pass it in or shouldn't?
 970 2013-12-08 14:19:42 <sipa> you should
 971 2013-12-08 14:19:44 <Luke-Jr> if you want it, pass it in
 972 2013-12-08 14:20:13 <Arnavion> Right, okay
 973 2013-12-08 14:20:27 <Arnavion> Well, build succeeded with --qith-qt=qt5
 974 2013-12-08 14:20:34 <Arnavion> --with-qt*
 975 2013-12-08 14:20:37 <Arnavion> So there's that
 976 2013-12-08 14:20:39 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: did you need custom CXXFLAGS?
 977 2013-12-08 14:20:45 <Arnavion> I compiled without
 978 2013-12-08 14:20:53 <Arnavion> I did override a bnch of other stuff
 979 2013-12-08 14:20:54 <Arnavion> Sec
 980 2013-12-08 14:21:03 <AtashiCon> ./configure --with-qt=qt5 USE_DBUS=1 USE_IPV6=0 USE_QRCODE=0 USE_UPNP=- DEBUGFLAGS=
 981 2013-12-08 14:21:13 <Arnavion> Although I'm not sure how much of that still works
 982 2013-12-08 14:21:25 <Arnavion> I used to use those with qmake back when it was there
 983 2013-12-08 14:21:30 <Luke-Jr> AtashiCon: those other vars will be ignored..
 984 2013-12-08 14:21:35 <Arnavion> k
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 986 2013-12-08 14:23:33 <Arnavion> Seems to work
 987 2013-12-08 14:24:04 <sipa> Arnavion == AtashiCon?
 988 2013-12-08 14:24:08 <Arnavion> Yeah
 989 2013-12-08 14:24:13 <Arnavion> AtashiCon is the machine I'm testing on
 990 2013-12-08 14:24:21 <Arnavion> openSUSE 13.1
 991 2013-12-08 14:25:15 edulix has joined
 992 2013-12-08 14:25:20 <Arnavion> It made peer connections and is syncing
 993 2013-12-08 14:25:43 <Arnavion> Is there anything I should test?
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 998 2013-12-08 14:33:33 <wumpus> Luke-Jr, sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3368
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1021 2013-12-08 15:22:57 <K1773R> sipa: i hope you wont merge this https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder/pull/15
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1025 2013-12-08 15:25:12 <upb> wtf, 'pseudocoders'
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1031 2013-12-08 15:42:22 <sipa> K1773R: hadn't tried it yet
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1049 2013-12-08 16:28:03 <diki> upb:pseudocoders??
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1060 2013-12-08 16:42:16 <upb> diki: people who create cosmetic changes pull requests
1061 2013-12-08 16:42:52 <diki> Oh, I thought you meant coders with half-assed knowledge
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1064 2013-12-08 16:45:08 <upb> there is aconnection :)
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1071 2013-12-08 16:51:10 <diki> upb:It is nothing to be proud of, but I fall within that category, I was categorized by a person who claimed to know people like me, who either take days to find a single bug, or never do. Or launch a service and get hacked soonish.
1072 2013-12-08 16:51:13 atlas` has joined
1073 2013-12-08 16:53:01 <diki> That was the first time someone told me I can't code. Perhaps he was right, but I program as a hobby.
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1089 2013-12-08 17:05:39 <sunspotbtc> is it normal for bitcoind getinfo to hang while the initial download/verification is in process?
1090 2013-12-08 17:06:13 roconnor has joined
1091 2013-12-08 17:06:24 <gmaxwell> hang? no.. it is sometimes slow to respond (e.g. a couple seconds) while processing a batch of blocks.
1092 2013-12-08 17:07:00 <sunspotbtc> I'm seeing no response for several minutes
1093 2013-12-08 17:07:13 <sunspotbtc> 0.8.6 on ubuntu 12.04
1094 2013-12-08 17:07:23 <sunspotbtc> and I can confirm debug.log has activity
1095 2013-12-08 17:07:42 <sunspotbtc> OK, yea, it finally did respond
1096 2013-12-08 17:07:49 <sunspotbtc> but took about 3minutes LOL
1097 2013-12-08 17:08:13 <sunspotbtc> and now it's responding quickly
1098 2013-12-08 17:08:17 <sunspotbtc> *shrug*
1099 2013-12-08 17:08:33 <sunspotbtc> at least it isn't crashing like the last tests I did with 0.8.5
1100 2013-12-08 17:08:39 <nsh> i wonder what it would look like if an octopus shrugged...
1101 2013-12-08 17:09:14 <gmaxwell> sunspotbtc: nothing has changed wrt that.
1102 2013-12-08 17:09:24 Denim-jdev has quit (Quit: Man who run behind car get exhausted)
1103 2013-12-08 17:09:27 <gmaxwell> sunspotbtc: Did you report your crashes?
1104 2013-12-08 17:10:03 <diki> sunspotbtc:I guess it is. I've experienced it a lot of times.
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1106 2013-12-08 17:10:19 <sunspotbtc> gmaxwell: I had planned to but wanted to get a repeatable test case with the latest version but it's not crashing this time LOL
1107 2013-12-08 17:11:18 <sunspotbtc> gmaxwell: last time it took my machine down, couldn't even reach it via SSH
1108 2013-12-08 17:12:25 <lechuga> u sure its not badbios?
1109 2013-12-08 17:12:27 <gmaxwell> sunspotbtc: sounds like it was running you out of memory during the initial block download. This is a known issue, though 0.8.5 is no different, it won't happen every time— only if it recieves a new block from the network while downloading.
1110 2013-12-08 17:12:33 <gmaxwell> lechuga: Please don't be unhelpful.
1111 2013-12-08 17:12:43 <lechuga> :)
1112 2013-12-08 17:12:52 <sunspotbtc> lechuga: who could be? ;)
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1115 2013-12-08 17:15:18 <sunspotbtc> gmaxwell: makes sense, I added a swapfile this time so that might explain why it's not running out of mem
1116 2013-12-08 17:18:21 <sipa> it also explains why getinfo takes minutes :)
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1118 2013-12-08 17:20:04 <sunspotbtc> sipa: good point
1119 2013-12-08 17:24:00 <sunspotbtc> what's the diff between SHA256SUMS.asc and SHASUMS.asc, why are there two (sorry if that's naive)
1120 2013-12-08 17:25:15 <sipa> not every tool supports sha256, i guess
1121 2013-12-08 17:25:20 <sipa> mostly a historic reason
1122 2013-12-08 17:26:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(also, I guess you'd need both sha256 and sha1 to be broken in order to compromise the signatures?)
1123 2013-12-08 17:26:33 <sipa> yeah
1124 2013-12-08 17:26:38 <sunspotbtc> I thought sha1 was broken
1125 2013-12-08 17:26:52 <lechuga> not routinely
1126 2013-12-08 17:27:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|sunspotbtc: no, but it's been estimated that it can be broken with a few million dollars
1127 2013-12-08 17:27:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|FSVO broken
1128 2013-12-08 17:28:50 <sipa> a collision, yes
1129 2013-12-08 17:28:56 <sipa> not a preimage, afaik
1130 2013-12-08 17:29:17 <nsh> michagogo|cloud, FSVO?
1131 2013-12-08 17:29:26 <sipa> for some value of
1132 2013-12-08 17:29:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google --lucky --snippet FSVO
1133 2013-12-08 17:29:34 <gribble> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FSVO | Internet Slang adapted from Programming. Literally. For Some Value Of.
1134 2013-12-08 17:29:35 <nsh> oh, right
1135 2013-12-08 17:29:42 <nsh> ty
1136 2013-12-08 17:30:21 <lechuga> dont most people say 'for some definition of...'
1137 2013-12-08 17:30:43 <lechuga> ;;google --lucky --snippet FSDO
1138 2013-12-08 17:30:43 <gribble> http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/ | Dec 19, 2011 ... Contact a FSDO for. Low-flying aircraft; Accident Reporting; Air carrier certification and operations; Aircraft maintenance; Aircraft operational ...
1139 2013-12-08 17:30:48 <lechuga> guess not
1140 2013-12-08 17:30:51 * sunspotbtc adds the double verify to his build notes
1141 2013-12-08 17:31:10 spirals has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1142 2013-12-08 17:31:41 <sunspotbtc> one more thing, the developer keys on bitcoin.org are out of date
1143 2013-12-08 17:31:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Are they?
1144 2013-12-08 17:32:49 <sunspotbtc> http://bitcoin.org/gavinandresen.asc
1145 2013-12-08 17:33:00 <sunspotbtc> doesn't include 7BF6E212
1146 2013-12-08 17:33:29 <sunspotbtc> which I had to find from pgpkeys.mit.edu
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1148 2013-12-08 17:34:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Oh, interesting
1149 2013-12-08 17:35:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So that includes his key, and one subkey of his code-signing key
1150 2013-12-08 17:35:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|odd.
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1168 2013-12-08 17:55:49 <lechuga> any1 have any issues connecting to the testnet with multibit?
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1173 2013-12-08 18:03:16 <lechuga> hmm
1174 2013-12-08 18:03:22 <lechuga> doesnt seem able to connect to any peers
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1180 2013-12-08 18:11:12 <hmsimha> Hi, I'm wondering if anyone could help me with a cryptographic question regarding building on top of the address generation algorithms
1181 2013-12-08 18:11:43 <sipa> don't ask to ask
1182 2013-12-08 18:12:48 <gmaxwell> just ask
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1184 2013-12-08 18:15:40 <hmsimha> gotcha, so I was wondering if you could encrypt messages with someone's public bitcoin address they could encrypt with their private key, and that would be secure
1185 2013-12-08 18:16:02 <hmsimha> sorry, *that they could decrypt with their private key
1186 2013-12-08 18:17:09 <hmsimha> i've searched and found something along those lines being asked before, but with unclear (at least to me) answers
1187 2013-12-08 18:17:59 <andytoshi> well, the main problem is that the address is not a public key, but a hash of the public key
1188 2013-12-08 18:18:07 <andytoshi> so you can't get a public key just by knowing an address
1189 2013-12-08 18:18:37 <andytoshi> otoh, whenever a key is actually used to spend money, the public key is exposed
1190 2013-12-08 18:19:30 <andytoshi> the inverse operation, digitally signing messages, is supported directly by bitcoind
1191 2013-12-08 18:19:50 <hmsimha> hmm.. interesting, i thought it was a base58check encoding of the public key... so that would be reversible
1192 2013-12-08 18:20:44 <hmsimha> right, i know about signing messages.. and that's pretty rad, but it would be nice to have messages that could be sent from one bitcoin account to another, even if the two account-holders don't know each other and haven't established a means of communication
1193 2013-12-08 18:21:48 <lechuga> any1 know why id fail to connect to the rpc server in bitcoind using bitcoind from the cmdline?
1194 2013-12-08 18:21:57 <lechuga> i verified with telnet its listening on 1833
1195 2013-12-08 18:22:08 <lechuga> 18333*
1196 2013-12-08 18:22:09 <andytoshi> hmsimha: as a general rule it is unwise to use a same key for encryption and signatures, and bitcoin uses these keys for signatures
1197 2013-12-08 18:22:22 <andytoshi> i'm not sure what the exact situation is with ECDSA
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1199 2013-12-08 18:23:03 <andytoshi> but if you wanted to do this, you'd have to publish the public key separate from the address
1200 2013-12-08 18:23:16 <andytoshi> and so anyone you're sending secret messages to would have to be cooperating with the scheme
1201 2013-12-08 18:23:18 <hmsimha> andytoshi, the key used for signing would be the sender's private key, but the key used for encryption, in theory, should be the recipient's public key
1202 2013-12-08 18:23:20 <hmsimha> much like pgp
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1204 2013-12-08 18:23:40 <nsh> signing messages with your bitcoin private keys could be pretty dangerous
1205 2013-12-08 18:23:58 <andytoshi> hmsimha: understood
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1207 2013-12-08 18:24:02 <andytoshi> see for example, http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/12090/using-the-same-rsa-keypair-to-sign-and-encrypt
1208 2013-12-08 18:24:09 <nsh> if you have weak entropy, it could compromise your key
1209 2013-12-08 18:24:18 <nsh> (under DSA at least)
1210 2013-12-08 18:24:19 <andytoshi> this is for RSA, but the first answer is "Depends on tricky details of the padding scheme you use and your implementation. It'd generally discouraged to reuse keys like that."
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1213 2013-12-08 18:25:21 <nsh> it would be wiser to create a new address, then authenticate the address with a token transaction from an actual currency-holding address
1214 2013-12-08 18:25:51 <hmsimha> I'm a little bit over my depth with the terminology, but it sounds like your saying it could be done, but because the scheme for generating addresses uses less entropy than RSA, there's the risk that an attacker could determine your private key form an encrypted message?
1215 2013-12-08 18:25:53 <sipa> or a message signature
1216 2013-12-08 18:26:15 <sipa> you can use EC-IES using bitcoin keys
1217 2013-12-08 18:26:19 <sipa> for encryption
1218 2013-12-08 18:26:25 <sipa> though you need the full public key
1219 2013-12-08 18:26:33 <sipa> and as said, key reuse isn't wise
1220 2013-12-08 18:26:38 <gmaxwell> as nsh says
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1233 2013-12-08 18:38:53 <melvster> hmsimha: FWIW satoshi wanted the keys to be used for both signing and encryption but RSA keys would just have taken up far too much space (and there may be other reasons) so ECDSA was selected
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1237 2013-12-08 18:39:28 <sipa> ... encryption?
1238 2013-12-08 18:39:29 <sipa> where?
1239 2013-12-08 18:39:56 <melvster> there's an old forum post about it ... ive read through the archives a few times :)
1240 2013-12-08 18:40:25 <sipa> bitcoin doesn't use encryption anywhere, so that would surprise me
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1242 2013-12-08 18:41:16 <melvster> i should perhaps say 'usable' rather than 'used'
1243 2013-12-08 18:41:34 <melvster> let me see if i can dig out the post
1244 2013-12-08 18:41:43 <sipa> yes, RSA can be used for both, and is quite an exception in that
1245 2013-12-08 18:42:02 <sipa> but i don't see the relevance in the context of bitcoin
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1247 2013-12-08 18:43:37 <melvster> here you go:
1248 2013-12-08 18:43:42 <melvster> satoshi: 'Bitcoin uses EC-DSA, which can only do digital signing, not encryption.  RSA can do both, but I didn't use it because it's an order of magnitude bigger and would have been impractical.'
1249 2013-12-08 18:44:00 <sipa> yes, sure
1250 2013-12-08 18:44:19 <melvster> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=30.msg1169#msg1169
1251 2013-12-08 18:44:49 <melvster> there may of course be other reasons
1252 2013-12-08 18:44:53 <hmsimha> melvster, that definitely helps answer my question, thank you!
1253 2013-12-08 18:45:10 <melvster> np :)
1254 2013-12-08 18:45:24 <sipa> yes, not objecting at all - i only reacted because you said satoshi wanted keys that did both encryption and signing, which seems very strange as bitcoin doesn't use encryption at all
1255 2013-12-08 18:45:48 <melvster> sure ... i could have been clearer ... :)
1256 2013-12-08 18:45:57 <sipa> also, he was not entirely right; EC-DSA is only for signing, but there are other EC algorithms which use the same keys which can do encryption (EC-IES, in particular)
1257 2013-12-08 18:46:20 <melvster> oh cool ... i didnt know that
1258 2013-12-08 18:46:34 <sipa> 19:22:44 < sipa> you can use EC-IES using bitcoin keys
1259 2013-12-08 18:46:34 <sipa> 19:22:48 < sipa> for encryption
1260 2013-12-08 18:47:00 <melvster> yes i saw ... tho didnt know it was another algorithm ... was about to search it :)
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1265 2013-12-08 18:48:23 <bitanarchy> are browsers suitable for generating private keys... like bitaddress or brainwallet? Because the paper wallet page on bitcoin.it says that they are not!
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1268 2013-12-08 18:48:54 <sipa> if you trust the site and all infrastructure surrounding it
1269 2013-12-08 18:49:02 <sipa> (or use a locally-stored and validated copy)
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1278 2013-12-08 18:51:20 <melvster> the code is on github ... I run an older mirror at ... ive not noticed any issues with it ... but it's always best to check yourself : http://virtualwallet.org/
1279 2013-12-08 18:51:43 <melvster> local copy is best
1280 2013-12-08 18:51:50 <melvster> and better to disconnect from the internet
1281 2013-12-08 18:51:51 roconnor_ has joined
1282 2013-12-08 18:52:27 <melvster> check the network tab to see if there's any ajax requests going on
1283 2013-12-08 18:52:47 <melvster> and jumble up your keystrokes and mouse moves in case there's a key logger
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1293 2013-12-08 18:53:59 <melvster> imho ... brainwallet is just a good tool for debugging ... it's hard to trust any web client without looking at the source each time
1294 2013-12-08 18:54:28 <melvster> and importantly the random number generator
1295 2013-12-08 18:55:41 <melvster> but maybe this will change when the trezor comes out
1296 2013-12-08 18:56:39 <melvster> (next month)
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1337 2013-12-08 19:26:44 Gandalf has joined
1338 2013-12-08 19:26:56 <Gandalf> How big would blocks have to be to support SWIFT network level volume?
1339 2013-12-08 19:28:38 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1)
1340 2013-12-08 19:29:40 ThomasV has joined
1341 2013-12-08 19:35:08 <sipa> currently blocks are limited to 1 MB
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1343 2013-12-08 19:36:01 <sipa> no idea how many transactions SWIFT does, but probably a large multiple of that
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1345 2013-12-08 19:36:53 OrP has joined
1346 2013-12-08 19:37:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;google SWIFT transaction volume
1347 2013-12-08 19:37:39 <gribble> Financial Sector Overview: <http://www.cs.columbia.edu/ncdi-fi-workshop/Financial_Sector_Overview.ppt>; Mapping the Global Financial Crisis to B2B – Insights from SWIFT's ...: <http://www.gxsblogs.com/keifers/2009/06/mapping-the-global-financial-crisis-to-b2b-insights-from-swift%E2%80%99s-annual-report.html>; Business case - Swift: (1 more message)
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1349 2013-12-08 19:38:09 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;more
1350 2013-12-08 19:38:10 <gribble> <http://www.swift.com/investmentmanagers/our_solution/business_case.page>
1351 2013-12-08 19:38:13 <phantomcircuit> sipa, actually i suspect we can already do more than swift
1352 2013-12-08 19:38:14 <phantomcircuit> actually does that is
1353 2013-12-08 19:38:15 <phantomcircuit> not what they're capable of
1354 2013-12-08 19:38:19 <phantomcircuit> 7 transactions/second = 600k/day
1355 2013-12-08 19:38:22 <phantomcircuit> remember that swift message != transfer
1356 2013-12-08 19:38:30 <phantomcircuit> it takes multiple messages to execute a transfer
1357 2013-12-08 19:40:27 <sunspotbtc> can anyone recommend best practice security practices for running a wallet-less bitcoind full node?
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1359 2013-12-08 19:40:54 <sunspotbtc> running in a cloud environment (aws)
1360 2013-12-08 19:41:06 <sipa> cloud computing is vaporware
1361 2013-12-08 19:41:52 <lechuga> its not really vaporware it just isnt anything new or unique
1362 2013-12-08 19:42:07 <lechuga> people have been using shell servers forever
1363 2013-12-08 19:42:32 <lechuga> you could call logging into your university shell server and using pine/mutt/whatever for email an act of "cloud computing"
1364 2013-12-08 19:42:46 <lechuga> if you were sufficiently douchey
1365 2013-12-08 19:43:29 <sipa> it was a joke :p
1366 2013-12-08 19:43:33 <sipa> cloud == vapor, you see?
1367 2013-12-08 19:43:35 <lechuga> lol
1368 2013-12-08 19:43:38 <lechuga> im slow
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1370 2013-12-08 19:43:56 <lechuga> finally got my app doing things with the testnet
1371 2013-12-08 19:44:03 <lechuga> bitcoind+rpc super easy
1372 2013-12-08 19:44:37 <lechuga> figuring out node.js/passport/express/mongo esoteric is less easy
1373 2013-12-08 19:44:45 <lechuga> esoterica*
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1380 2013-12-08 19:45:39 <sunspotbtc> sipa: not sure I follow
1381 2013-12-08 19:46:26 Optimo has joined
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1383 2013-12-08 19:46:45 <sipa> sunspotbtc: if you don't have a wallet, what attack model do you want to be secure against?
1384 2013-12-08 19:47:14 <sunspotbtc> sipa: yes :) what attack models should I be worried about?
1385 2013-12-08 19:47:33 <sunspotbtc> sorry, I'm very new to this
1386 2013-12-08 19:47:45 <sipa> well what will you do with it?
1387 2013-12-08 19:47:59 Xuthus has joined
1388 2013-12-08 19:48:03 <sunspotbtc> I'd like to work torward running a pool eventually
1389 2013-12-08 19:48:06 RoboTedd_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1390 2013-12-08 19:48:11 <sunspotbtc> but only after I understand what I'm doing
1391 2013-12-08 19:48:22 <sunspotbtc> and I was thinking it would make sene to separate the services
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1393 2013-12-08 19:48:46 <sunspotbtc> so have bitcoind running on an isolated instance from the pool server, from the wallet, from the web front end, etc.
1394 2013-12-08 19:48:58 RoboTeddy has joined
1395 2013-12-08 19:49:13 <sunspotbtc> bitcoind seemed the least security sensitive part of that so i started there (also the most fundamental I guess)
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1402 2013-12-08 20:06:31 <Gandalf> Where can I talk with people who are working on the warpwallet challenge?
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1419 2013-12-08 20:25:57 <MarkProffitt> I want to set up a very simple BitCoin checkout on my website. I don't want to use a payment gateway. Does anyone know of a PHP or JavaScript to do that?
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1422 2013-12-08 20:28:39 <andytoshi> MarkProffitt: if you want to do this yourself, you need to understand what you're doing
1423 2013-12-08 20:28:51 <andytoshi> nobody is going to give you a code snippit that you can apply without thinking
1424 2013-12-08 20:29:05 <sipa> also, just some php or javascript won't suffice
1425 2013-12-08 20:29:24 <sipa> as it needs some way of being informed a transaction arrived, which needs a bitcoin node
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1427 2013-12-08 20:29:55 <kjj> you are encouraged to read this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269886.0
1428 2013-12-08 20:30:21 <ryan-c> are transactions with single satoshi outputs considered non-standard?
1429 2013-12-08 20:31:11 <sipa> depends on how you configure your bitcoind, but yes
1430 2013-12-08 20:31:14 <sipa> by default
1431 2013-12-08 20:31:25 <ryan-c> What's the dust threshold these days?
1432 2013-12-08 20:31:47 <ryan-c> is it still 5430?
1433 2013-12-08 20:31:53 <sipa> depends on how you configure your bitcoind, but 5460 satoshi by default
1434 2013-12-08 20:32:02 <Royal_Soda> Hi. Is there anyway that I can set it up so if a user approves, their address can be charged spontaneously from a service?
1435 2013-12-08 20:32:12 <kjj> no
1436 2013-12-08 20:32:19 <kjj> well, it would be more accurate to say "Fuck no"
1437 2013-12-08 20:32:32 <Gandalf> Only if the server has them store their wallet with the serrvice... which is a really bad idea
1438 2013-12-08 20:32:41 <Royal_Soda> Ok- just verifying
1439 2013-12-08 20:33:05 <sipa> the "you can only send coins by proving you have their private key" rule is holy
1440 2013-12-08 20:33:15 <ryan-c> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2577 5430 or 5460?
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1442 2013-12-08 20:33:47 <sipa> i think there was an off-by-one in the calculation
1443 2013-12-08 20:33:49 <kjj> if you care about the difference between 5330 and 5460, you are probably doing something wrong.  :)
1444 2013-12-08 20:34:02 <sipa> i haven't validated it myself, though
1445 2013-12-08 20:34:40 <ryan-c> Royal_Soda: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_1:_Providing_a_deposit HOWEVER, I don't think the needed transactions are supported yet.
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1448 2013-12-08 20:35:06 <andytoshi> that's an incredible thread kjj, i can't believe that guy didn't know what a socket or pipe was a few hours before writing that code
1449 2013-12-08 20:35:17 <sipa> ryan-c: all features used there are standard, afaik
1450 2013-12-08 20:35:31 patcon_ has joined
1451 2013-12-08 20:35:41 <kjj> andytoshi: the power of google
1452 2013-12-08 20:35:50 <andytoshi> yeah, what a world
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1455 2013-12-08 20:37:13 <ryan-c> sipa: Yeah, I just re-read it - you're right, it works with currently standard transactions - even if tx2 is non-standard until locktime expires that doesn't break the scheme.
1456 2013-12-08 20:37:47 <ryan-c> Royal_Soda: It's not exactly what you asked about though.
1457 2013-12-08 20:38:02 Squidicuz has joined
1458 2013-12-08 20:38:20 <andytoshi> ryan-c: IIRC, parts of that transaction page were susceptible to transaction malleability
1459 2013-12-08 20:38:23 <andytoshi> contract page*
1460 2013-12-08 20:38:30 <andytoshi> i'm not sure if that is still true today
1461 2013-12-08 20:38:36 <ryan-c> Royal_Soda: Some sort of escrow might also suit your needs?
1462 2013-12-08 20:38:59 <sipa> meh
1463 2013-12-08 20:39:02 <Royal_Soda> Maybe
1464 2013-12-08 20:39:14 <Royal_Soda> w/e I can just have the user deposit money to the service
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1466 2013-12-08 20:39:26 <sipa> automatic payments are a feature of a transaction processor, not of a currency
1467 2013-12-08 20:39:45 <sipa> your physical wallet doesn't support allowing others to take pieces of it, does it?
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1469 2013-12-08 20:39:51 <andytoshi> realistically there should be client support for that..but i guess we'd want a payment protocol first
1470 2013-12-08 20:40:27 <sipa> yeah, there are certainly ways of accomplishing the same in a cleaner way
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1474 2013-12-08 20:41:50 <ryan-c> Royal_Soda: Is the a pay-per-use type thing or a monthly fee type thing?
1475 2013-12-08 20:42:17 <Royal_Soda> More like a pay per use
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1477 2013-12-08 20:42:28 <Royal_Soda> But the user doesn't need to physically be on the website to use it
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1479 2013-12-08 20:42:45 <Royal_Soda> So I wanted it to be simplified so a user can just start to use the service, and it auto-charges them
1480 2013-12-08 20:43:02 <ryan-c> Royal_Soda: Yeah, that'd be a dangerous feature.
1481 2013-12-08 20:43:21 <Royal_Soda> Yeah I can see why, just wanted to be sure before I set it up so a user just deposits.
1482 2013-12-08 20:43:54 <andytoshi> if this is a monthly thing, you could send them email reminders (and even generate a new address for each email), etc
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1484 2013-12-08 20:44:02 <ryan-c> Royal_Soda: Maybe let people buy use credits - I use a bunch of commercial api services that way
1485 2013-12-08 20:44:16 <Gandalf> ^ good idea
1486 2013-12-08 20:44:20 <Gandalf> I like that plan
1487 2013-12-08 20:44:47 <ryan-c> Usually there are then quantity discounts.
1488 2013-12-08 20:45:26 <ryan-c> If you want to make it "easy" to just get started, offer some small number of freebie credits.
1489 2013-12-08 20:45:37 <Royal_Soda> Yeah, I suppose
1490 2013-12-08 20:45:42 <Royal_Soda> Thanks for the help
1491 2013-12-08 20:45:49 <ryan-c> and limit by IP, not cookie
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1522 2013-12-08 21:35:25 <TYDIRocks> Hello I'm receiving the error "System error: CDB(): can't open database file wallet.dat" what should I do?
1523 2013-12-08 21:36:11 edulix has joined
1524 2013-12-08 21:36:51 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: do you have a wallet with coins in it or is this just some walletless node?
1525 2013-12-08 21:37:18 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, There is a wallet with coins in it
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1527 2013-12-08 21:38:36 <gmaxwell> okay, you should safely back up the wallet.dat and database/ subdirectory.  Then try removing the database subdirectory and restarting. If that doesn't bring it up, try starting with -salvagewallet
1528 2013-12-08 21:40:15 <TYDIRocks> So delete everything besides the wallet? Because I've done that once
1529 2013-12-08 21:40:34 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
1530 2013-12-08 21:40:44 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: now you're also going to have a resync delay.
1531 2013-12-08 21:40:59 <gmaxwell> did you backup the database directory before deleting it?
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1533 2013-12-08 21:41:48 <TYDIRocks> Yes, I was hoping to use the bootstrap though because I've been getting this error for a long time and thus haven't been able to sync
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1544 2013-12-08 21:47:17 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: in any case, salvagewallet _may_ fix it.
1545 2013-12-08 21:47:37 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell I actually just ran it again with -debug and for some reason I haven't gotten the error yet...
1546 2013-12-08 21:47:42 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1547 2013-12-08 21:48:04 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell not sure why. I still have 189 weeks of blocks to download and I'm sure I'll get an error by then
1548 2013-12-08 21:48:12 rethaw has joined
1549 2013-12-08 21:48:40 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: shouldn't have anything to do with having the blocks.
1550 2013-12-08 21:48:51 <vsrinivas> afternoon folks; just an observation, when spinning up a full node from 0->current blocks; replacing LevelDB's crc32c implementation with one that uses CRC32C + PCLMULQDQ might have had a small perf. win;
1551 2013-12-08 21:49:27 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, which is why I'm confused. Would it be smart to start it over fresh with the bootstrap to ensure I get no error?
1552 2013-12-08 21:50:00 <gmaxwell> vsrinivas: I don't recall the leveldb stuff ever showing up in a profile.
1553 2013-12-08 21:50:06 <gmaxwell> maybe it does now?
1554 2013-12-08 21:50:18 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: the error you reported is a wallet error, nothing with the blockchain should matter.
1555 2013-12-08 21:50:37 <vsrinivas> gmaxwell: showed up for me, is why i tried this. was a full sync of a node where it did/does.
1556 2013-12-08 21:50:39 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: so it shouldn't matter if you have the bootstrap or not.
1557 2013-12-08 21:51:14 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, alright thanks. So if I do run into it again I should delete the database subfolder and run with -salvagewallet?
1558 2013-12-08 21:51:16 <gmaxwell> vsrinivas: sweet. At least in my last profiles I seem to recall a lot of time wasted in the heap allocator and in sha256
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1563 2013-12-08 21:51:37 <vsrinivas> yes, the allocator seems to be another pain point.
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1566 2013-12-08 21:51:53 <vsrinivas> per perf (so only samples when running), w/ git master from last sunday, xeon e55xx, leveldb's crc32 was ~2-3% of samples.
1567 2013-12-08 21:51:58 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: if you'd already deleted it, no need to do again. but yes, you can try salvagewallet if it fails again.
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1570 2013-12-08 21:53:05 <gmaxwell> vsrinivas: do you have any good way to get a sampled profile that gets good backtraces in order to see where most of the heap allocator thrashing is coming from.
1571 2013-12-08 21:53:43 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, alright thanks. I think I want to try to use the bootstrap though. What files should I delete to do that? Also, when it changed it to bootstrap.dat.old it's the same file just renamed right?
1572 2013-12-08 21:54:23 <vsrinivas> gmaxwell: no, don't, sadly. perf record + full debug symbols + short runs of perf-record would be the best combination i can think of.
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1576 2013-12-08 21:54:41 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: yea, you can just shutdown and rename the bootstrap back. no need to delete anything.
1577 2013-12-08 21:54:50 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, okay thanks
1578 2013-12-08 21:54:58 <gmaxwell> it just renames the bootstrap to avoid rescanning it. :)
1579 2013-12-08 21:55:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: aww. pulltester failed 3370
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1582 2013-12-08 21:56:07 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, hmm, another problem. When I closed the client I got a runaway exception error. "A datal error occurred. Bitcoin can no longer continute safely and will quit. EXCEPTION: st13runtime_error CDB(): can't open database file wallet.dat, error -30974"
1583 2013-12-08 21:56:13 <TYDIRocks> fatal*
1584 2013-12-08 21:56:20 PotatoBadger_ has left ()
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1586 2013-12-08 21:59:21 <nsh> FINISH HIM.... DATALITY!
1587 2013-12-08 21:59:21 ZIPY has joined
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1589 2013-12-08 21:59:31 <nsh> ehehe
1590 2013-12-08 21:59:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: pulltester mostly died
1591 2013-12-08 21:59:57 delasteve has joined
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1593 2013-12-08 22:00:13 <sipa> or timed out
1594 2013-12-08 22:00:13 <PotatoBadger> Hello! How might one get started with creating raw transactions in PHP?
1595 2013-12-08 22:00:24 <gmaxwell> java.io.IOException: Connection reset by peer
1596 2013-12-08 22:01:34 <vsrinivas> is bitcoind trying to avoid C++11-isms?
1597 2013-12-08 22:01:49 jrklein has joined
1598 2013-12-08 22:02:17 <sipa> vsrinivas: yes, as we still need to support a platform that doesn't support it
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1600 2013-12-08 22:02:42 <vsrinivas> oh ok.
1601 2013-12-08 22:02:43 <sipa> vsrinivas: the linux binaries are created using gcc 4.2 in thr gitian vm
1602 2013-12-08 22:05:59 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, I've used -salvagewallet and now I don't have any addresses in my wallet
1603 2013-12-08 22:06:24 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: how are you judging "have any addresses"?
1604 2013-12-08 22:06:36 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell my receive tab is empty
1605 2013-12-08 22:07:07 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: I think thats fine, I think all the addresses salvage recovers is hidden. do you know any of the addresses it should have had?
1606 2013-12-08 22:07:40 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, yes I have my wallet also on blockchain.info so I can get the public addresses there
1607 2013-12-08 22:08:21 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: okay so open up the debug console and run validateaddress <address>  and see if it returns ismine true.
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1609 2013-12-08 22:09:14 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell yup it returns true
1610 2013-12-08 22:09:26 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: okay cool, you should see your coins once it syncs up then.
1611 2013-12-08 22:09:37 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, awesome thanks
1612 2013-12-08 22:09:48 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, idk why no one could help me figure this out before haha
1613 2013-12-08 22:10:14 <TYDIRocks> Yup I see transactions popping up now
1614 2013-12-08 22:10:23 <TYDIRocks> Hmm receive tab still empty though, interesting
1615 2013-12-08 22:10:27 <gmaxwell> It will be.
1616 2013-12-08 22:10:41 <TYDIRocks> Is there a way to populate it?
1617 2013-12-08 22:10:44 <gmaxwell> \O/ make sure you check the final balance. The salvagewallet functionality seems a little imperfect.
1618 2013-12-08 22:10:48 <PotatoBadger> Can anyone point me in the right direction? I need to automate payments to addresses from a SQL database with PHP. The PHP file will have access to the private key for signing transactions.
1619 2013-12-08 22:11:27 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: no, the keys in the wallet are marked used and hidden. Also, FWIW that tab is mostly gone in the git version of bitcoin.
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1621 2013-12-08 22:13:13 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, how come it's mostly gone? And I will do thanks. A weird thing I just remembered actually. My bitcoin-qt balance said it was 2.9 before I did this. However, when I imported my stuff onto blockchain.info (a long time ago) I only have around 2.7. What happened to that .2?
1622 2013-12-08 22:13:43 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: hm. is what you imported the same wallet?
1623 2013-12-08 22:13:55 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, yup
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1625 2013-12-08 22:14:49 <TYDIRocks> Ah seeing my wallet have 1.87 btc...if only that were still true haha
1626 2013-12-08 22:15:03 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: it's gone because you're normally supposted to be using a new address for every payment, so the list was primarily for historical interest (you can still get to a list, but you have to click a seperate button to explicitly reuse an old address). There were also problems with people confusing address book (sent) addresses with their own.
1627 2013-12-08 22:15:53 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, ah I see. doesn't that increase the tax though if the balance is spread out through different addresses?
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1629 2013-12-08 22:16:43 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: no not at all! the bitcoin backend system itself actually has no idea what addresses are in use. There is absolutely zero savings from reusing an address.
1630 2013-12-08 22:17:11 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin has no balances at all... the view you see on things like blockexplorer are build out of analyizing the blockchain and producing summaries (which require gigantic databases)
1631 2013-12-08 22:17:44 <TYDIRocks> gmaxwell, Oh I see. My understanding was that you cant get away with no tax if the coins used in the transaction are spread over a bunch of addresses.
1632 2013-12-08 22:18:06 <nsh> and a 20% increased risk of cancer
1633 2013-12-08 22:18:13 <nsh> wrong chan sorry
1634 2013-12-08 22:18:28 <TYDIRocks> lol
1635 2013-12-08 22:18:42 <gmaxwell> No, your understanding was incorrect.  The transaction size depends on how many prior payments you're spending, but the number of distinct addresses they used is irrelevant.
1636 2013-12-08 22:19:02 <gmaxwell> so avoiding some of those misunderstandings is part of the reason its reorganized.
1637 2013-12-08 22:19:31 <TYDIRocks> Ah I see, well thanks for the update! I've been wanting to learn more about the protocol just haven't had the time to read all of the wiki pages haha
1638 2013-12-08 22:21:32 <TYDIRocks> I had 2.9 at one point??? Dammit why did I have to sell these..
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1642 2013-12-08 22:29:08 <andytoshi> TYDIRocks: regarding the difference between addresses and outputs, you might find http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-faq.pdf helpful
1643 2013-12-08 22:29:58 <andytoshi> basically, you can get savings by using fewer outputs, but this isn't really something you have control over (and as far as you -do- have control, bitcoin-qt optimizes as much as possible behind the scenes for you)
1644 2013-12-08 22:30:18 <andytoshi> reusing address just means using the same address for multiple outputs, so you don't get the savings
1645 2013-12-08 22:30:33 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: well, we could do better. E.g. we could intentionally use _more_ inputs to make the change come out as more useful sizes.
1646 2013-12-08 22:31:46 <andytoshi> interesting..i wonder what kind of analysis would need to be done to do that well
1647 2013-12-08 22:32:02 <andytoshi> because it would also hopefully disguise which addresses are change, improving anonymity a bit
1648 2013-12-08 22:34:41 <vsrinivas> sigh. uint160/uint256 zerofill their storage word-at-a-time when constructed from other integer types.
1649 2013-12-08 22:35:53 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: the simple thing to implement is always to spend all linked inputs at once, making the change as large as possible without increasing linkage.  this also lowers fees assuming that in the future fees are higher... and having inputs which are too large is generally preferable to too small.
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1667 2013-12-08 22:55:15 <vsrinivas> looks like my compiler at least hasn't done anything good with most of the templated uint code (memset/memcmp could help here!)... operator< does show up in my profiles of full chain sync.
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1691 2013-12-08 23:17:24 <Fistful_of_LTC> hi
1692 2013-12-08 23:17:40 handle_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1693 2013-12-08 23:18:24 <Fistful_of_LTC> does a solution exist for creating a wallet on an embedded device?
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1698 2013-12-08 23:26:03 <Luke-Jr> Fistful_of_LTC: not out-of-the-box, afaik
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1703 2013-12-08 23:29:53 <amiller> ugh, does Armory have a lite mode
1704 2013-12-08 23:30:15 <amiller> it uses 13gigs of data even though it also uses bitcoind
1705 2013-12-08 23:31:16 halvors has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1706 2013-12-08 23:31:21 <pigeons> yeah its ridiculous
1707 2013-12-08 23:31:37 Xarian has quit ()
1708 2013-12-08 23:31:42 <amiller> "The databases that Armory builds and uses are very large (12-20 GB), and it is possible for them to become corrupted, especially if Armory did not shut down cleanly."
1709 2013-12-08 23:31:44 <amiller> awesome.
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1712 2013-12-08 23:38:23 <nsh> what do they use that for?
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1714 2013-12-08 23:38:40 <nsh> here's an index of your indices...
1715 2013-12-08 23:38:50 <gmaxwell> amiller: be glad its not in memory anymore with the latest versions.
1716 2013-12-08 23:42:02 <Fistful_of_LTC> Luke-Jr: what would i need to look at if i wanted to port the part that creates wallets and signs tx?
1717 2013-12-08 23:42:41 <Luke-Jr> Fistful_of_LTC: BIP 32
1718 2013-12-08 23:44:46 <Fistful_of_LTC> thanks
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