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  13 2013-12-13 00:13:25 <jgarzik> LGTM and LGBT are too close to each other
  14 2013-12-13 00:13:31 <jgarzik> I keep thinking Mike is gay
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  45 2013-12-13 01:11:52 * BlueMatt starts to write LGBT on pull requests to confuse jgarzik even more
  46 2013-12-13 01:11:54 <BlueMatt> awww, he left :(
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  50 2013-12-13 01:14:36 <saracen> Are the blk0001.dat etc. files still used with the latest bitcoin-qt?
  51 2013-12-13 01:14:58 <saracen> The ones in the root of the folder, not under blocks/
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  56 2013-12-13 01:20:58 <btcdev9991> any objections to use libcurl in my daemon?
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  64 2013-12-13 01:27:03 <btcdev9991> why doesn't my project compile with libcurl library imports? saying undefined .. i do a -l curl to link it in and include curl.h in the right place...
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  76 2013-12-13 01:44:51 <__alp__> Got a question about bitcoind, trying to take a txid and figure out what block it was in.   Don't see any good way to do that other than brute force
  77 2013-12-13 01:44:56 <__alp__> Am I missing something?
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  83 2013-12-13 01:50:41 <kjj> gettransaction returns the block hash
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  85 2013-12-13 01:52:13 <__alp__> I swear I couldnt get gettransaction to work from python
  86 2013-12-13 01:52:16 <__alp__> let me double check
  87 2013-12-13 01:52:41 <kjj> you need to enable transaction indexing if you want it to work on non-wallet transactions
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  90 2013-12-13 01:54:02 <__alp__> thought I did that and reindexed
  91 2013-12-13 01:54:21 <__alp__> probably screwed it up
  92 2013-12-13 01:54:34 <__alp__> txindex=1
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  97 2013-12-13 01:57:24 <__alp__> any way to validate I set up non-wallet tx correctly?
  98 2013-12-13 01:57:31 <__alp__> conf file seems to be set up right
  99 2013-12-13 01:58:32 <kjj> did you stop, then start with -reindex ?
 100 2013-12-13 01:58:42 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 101 2013-12-13 01:58:49 <__alp__> yes, and it took all day to reindex
 102 2013-12-13 01:59:28 <__alp__> .bitcoin/blocks/index directory is 1.5GB now
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 106 2013-12-13 02:00:41 <kjj> can you gettransaction on 1e19279f6925f12073bdbf48bdc377932320870f3ad1029ac14a1b93a8571ba4 ?
 107 2013-12-13 02:01:28 Sleepnbum has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 108 2013-12-13 02:01:28 <__alp__>     raise JSONRPCException(response['error'])
 109 2013-12-13 02:01:28 <__alp__> bitcoinrpc.authproxy.JSONRPCException
 110 2013-12-13 02:01:44 <kjj> how about from the command line?
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 112 2013-12-13 02:02:12 <__alp__> 19:58:31
 113 2013-12-13 02:02:12 <__alp__> 
 114 2013-12-13 02:02:13 <__alp__> gettransaction '1e19279f6925f12073bdbf48bdc377932320870f3ad1029ac14a1b93a8571ba'
 115 2013-12-13 02:02:13 <__alp__> 19:58:31
 116 2013-12-13 02:02:13 <__alp__> 
 117 2013-12-13 02:02:13 <__alp__> Invalid or non-wallet transaction id (code -5)
 118 2013-12-13 02:02:22 <__alp__> guess I need to reindex
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 122 2013-12-13 02:06:04 <__alp__> give it another shot reindexing I suppose
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 131 2013-12-13 02:16:44 <trixisowned> anyone know of p2pools code?
 132 2013-12-13 02:16:49 <trixisowned> what exactly are peers?
 133 2013-12-13 02:16:56 <trixisowned> "0 out, 0 in"
 134 2013-12-13 02:17:12 <kjj> peers are other p2pool nodes that you are connected to
 135 2013-12-13 02:17:27 <trixisowned> ah
 136 2013-12-13 02:17:34 <trixisowned> so if there are no other p2pool nodes for the coin
 137 2013-12-13 02:17:40 <trixisowned> its of course gonna say 0 out 0 ib
 138 2013-12-13 02:17:42 <trixisowned> in*
 139 2013-12-13 02:18:00 <kjj> right
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 146 2013-12-13 02:25:47 <abishek> for querying bitcoin daemon from a remote server using curl, should we still have to have rpcallowip setup?
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 148 2013-12-13 02:27:00 <BlueMatt> you probably shouldnt do that, period
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 150 2013-12-13 02:27:21 <BlueMatt> well, at least with strict firewall rules to enforce connection limits (dont rely on bitcoind to do that)
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 157 2013-12-13 02:39:58 <Morblias> hey guys, first time running a full bitcoin node in vps, and am trying to figure out how to update bitcoind. do i just need to replace /usr/bin/bitcoind with the most recent one or is there more to upgrading it?
 158 2013-12-13 02:40:16 <BlueMatt> that should do it
 159 2013-12-13 02:40:26 <abishek> ok, where can i find the latest linux binaries of bitcoin daemon?
 160 2013-12-13 02:41:03 brson_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 161 2013-12-13 02:41:32 <Morblias> ahh, sweet. i was going at it the hard way trying to build from source and stuff and it wouldn't work. replacing the file is a lot easier! lol. thanks!
 162 2013-12-13 02:41:36 <Morblias> abishek: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.6/
 163 2013-12-13 02:41:49 <abishek> Morblias, thnx
 164 2013-12-13 02:41:52 <BlueMatt> PLEASE VERIFY SIGNATURES WHEN DOWNLOADING
 165 2013-12-13 02:42:08 <BlueMatt> the software is, after all, holding your money...
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 169 2013-12-13 02:45:31 * saracen wonders if bitcoin-qt will ever auto update
 170 2013-12-13 02:45:36 cyphase has joined
 171 2013-12-13 02:45:58 <abishek> BlueMatt, if my bitcoind is secured behind a firewall, what are the secured options to query bitcoind from a remote server?
 172 2013-12-13 02:46:14 beachandbytes has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 173 2013-12-13 02:46:45 <BlueMatt> sacrelege: no
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 176 2013-12-13 02:47:02 <BlueMatt> saracen: ^
 177 2013-12-13 02:47:30 <BlueMatt> abishek: I think you can still do it over ssl, but your best bet is really to just do it through an ssh tunnel or so
 178 2013-12-13 02:47:40 <BlueMatt> abishek: or, if it doesnt hold money, meh, do whatever
 179 2013-12-13 02:47:50 <BlueMatt> though it isnt too hard to dos bitcoind if you can get to the rpc port iirc
 180 2013-12-13 02:48:02 <BlueMatt> though maybe thats better now
 181 2013-12-13 02:49:05 <sacrelege> BlueMatt kind of funny, switching irc window and reading "NO!" ^^
 182 2013-12-13 02:49:37 <BlueMatt> sacrelege: well, bitcoin-qt will hopefully notify users of new releases someday
 183 2013-12-13 02:49:41 <BlueMatt> but auto-update, no
 184 2013-12-13 02:49:42 <BlueMatt> never
 185 2013-12-13 02:51:38 <saracen> BlueMatt: Why? (I'm not arguing that it should feature auto-update, just curious).
 186 2013-12-13 02:52:57 <BlueMatt> I think everyone 'round here agrees that some level of user interaction should be required to update
 187 2013-12-13 02:53:20 <BlueMatt> if nothing more than "an update is available, click here"
 188 2013-12-13 02:53:28 <BlueMatt> bitcoin does, after all, hold your money
 189 2013-12-13 02:53:49 <BlueMatt> so users who want to (everyone should, no one does) can go read the update changelog and look at source to make sure its all ok
 190 2013-12-13 02:54:19 <saracen> After the "click here" step though, is there any issues from it then automatically installing the update (perhaps showing the changelog, like a Steam restart does)?
 191 2013-12-13 02:54:35 <BlueMatt> no, I'd like to see exactly that
 192 2013-12-13 02:54:44 <BlueMatt> (assuming click here also does sig verification and all that good stuff)
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 195 2013-12-13 03:05:59 <go1111111> can I simulate coin control using the Bitcoin-QT UI, by relying on how Bitcoin-QT constructs transactions? For instance if I have unspent outputs of sizes 2, 6, 7, and I try to send 7 BTC, can I rely on the client using the output with 7 coins, because it tries to use as few outputs as possible? In other words, can the heuristic that the client uses to select inputs be described in a couple sentences?
 196 2013-12-13 03:07:48 <pigeons> not the answer to the question you asked but git head has a coin control ui
 197 2013-12-13 03:09:42 <go1111111> cool.. i'll try to fix my compilation issues then. thanks
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 243 2013-12-13 04:19:02 <Luke-Jr> go1111111: why not just use coin control?
 244 2013-12-13 04:19:22 <Luke-Jr> go1111111: there's a port for 0.8.x, and it's in git master..
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 247 2013-12-13 04:22:05 <go1111111> Luke-Jr: thats what I plan to do -- wasn't aware of that before. thanks!
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 290 2013-12-13 05:40:24 <Zoop_> http://www.pcworld.com/article/2080041/bitcoin-market-price-app-bitcoin-alarm-is-carefully-cloaked-malware.html
 291 2013-12-13 05:40:35 <Zoop_> seems relevant enough to post to the community
 292 2013-12-13 05:41:04 <Zoop_> be careful
 293 2013-12-13 05:41:25 <Zoop_> your bitcoins are on the line
 294 2013-12-13 05:41:53 <kjj> I don't even like going to websites about bitcoin.  who downloads and runs random software?
 295 2013-12-13 05:43:29 nanotube is now known as nanotuba
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 299 2013-12-13 05:48:31 <null> you're our millionth visitor! click here to download 10 bitcoin!
 300 2013-12-13 05:49:30 <Plasmastar> lol
 301 2013-12-13 05:50:25 agnostic98 has joined
 302 2013-12-13 05:50:39 <Zoop_> http://xkcd.com/570/
 303 2013-12-13 05:50:44 <Zoop_> comes to mind :)
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 367 2013-12-13 07:28:04 <Alina-malina> can anyone please explain me how that casacious coins worked?
 368 2013-12-13 07:28:54 <wumpus> they were basically just paper wallets
 369 2013-12-13 07:29:08 <Alina-malina> oh
 370 2013-12-13 07:29:23 <Alina-malina> it contains characters like password right and nothing else?
 371 2013-12-13 07:29:41 <wumpus> the public key is in the open and the private key is hidden behind some layer
 372 2013-12-13 07:30:10 <Alina-malina> you mean and public key and private key are on the same coin?
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 374 2013-12-13 07:31:05 <wumpus> yes
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 376 2013-12-13 07:31:10 <Alina-malina> oh
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 379 2013-12-13 07:31:39 <Alina-malina> so for each coin the public and private key are different right?
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 381 2013-12-13 07:32:24 <wumpus> yup, each coin is unique
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 386 2013-12-13 07:33:04 <Alina-malina> are those public keys of those coins available publicly somewhere else rather then printed on coins?
 387 2013-12-13 07:33:06 <wumpus> see the photo here http://www.coindesk.com/defcon-hackers-crack-physical-bitcoin-casascius-coins/
 388 2013-12-13 07:34:09 <wumpus> yes, http://casascius.uberbills.com/
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 392 2013-12-13 07:35:24 <Alina-malina> hmm so how many characters can contain maximum the priv key?
 393 2013-12-13 07:40:13 <wumpus> Alina-malina: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mini_private_key_format
 394 2013-12-13 07:40:50 <Alina-malina> oh ok thanks!
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 400 2013-12-13 07:46:59 <Zoop_> Alina trying to crack a casacious coin...
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 402 2013-12-13 07:48:50 <Apocalyptic> more nothing more than a Malina
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 417 2013-12-13 08:00:40 <go1111111> what's the process by which the bitcoin ppa gets upgraded to 0.8.6? https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
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 421 2013-12-13 08:07:21 <wumpus> go1111111: ping BlueMatt
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 460 2013-12-13 09:07:21 <Alina-malina> Zoop_, what you mean trying to crack a casacious coin?
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 514 2013-12-13 10:27:16 <Guest68621> hey, is there some brief how to how to added fully syn chain to bitcoin dir?
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 525 2013-12-13 10:33:37 <Guest68621> :)
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 532 2013-12-13 10:35:19 <jouke> Has there been some changes to the way the ssl certificates are handled in 8.6? Normally I would connect to the node via Ip-addresses, but since 8.6 curl warns about the hostname not belonging to the certificate.
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 652 2013-12-13 12:03:18 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|__alp__, kjj: gettransaction only ever works for transactions in the wallet
 653 2013-12-13 12:03:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|funky3: copy in the blocks/ and chainstate/ directories
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 656 2013-12-13 12:07:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"
 657 2013-12-13 12:07:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Since this package is in unstable only, I agree that it should not be
 658 2013-12-13 12:07:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|included in Ubuntu.  I've removed the package from trusty now and
 659 2013-12-13 12:07:00 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|blacklisted it so that future versions are not synced from Debian."
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 673 2013-12-13 12:13:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|"Unfortunately, it is not feasible to remove the package from stable
 674 2013-12-13 12:13:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|releases.  If there are versions of the package in stable releases that are
 675 2013-12-13 12:13:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|actively harmful, we could accept an SRU that disables the problematic parts
 676 2013-12-13 12:13:34 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|on upgrade (with a suitable notice)."
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 686 2013-12-13 12:21:00 <Blaster> Hmm, my Ubuntu testnet node experiences a delay before it receives payment notifications, of sometimes up to 5 minutes.  I am trying to build a payment service that allows someone access to a resource immediately upon payment and it doesn't work very well with that delay.  Is there any way to resolve it?  Will it resolve when I move from testnet to normal?
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 692 2013-12-13 12:25:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Blaster: if the transaction isn't being relayed to your node at all, there's not much you can do
 693 2013-12-13 12:25:27 <Blaster> michagogo|cloud: why wouldn't it be relayed?
 694 2013-12-13 12:25:35 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Besides wait for either the transaction, or a block containing it, to arrive at your node
 695 2013-12-13 12:25:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|)
 696 2013-12-13 12:25:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There are many possible reasons.
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 698 2013-12-13 12:26:11 <Blaster> that's dumb, this is supposed to programmable money, instantaneous.
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 701 2013-12-13 12:27:04 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Blaster: many things can affect the speed of a transaction's propagation
 702 2013-12-13 12:27:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The size, the transaction fee, and many others
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 705 2013-12-13 12:27:52 <Blaster> but the node you're sending payment to should be aware of the payment immediately shouldn't it?
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 707 2013-12-13 12:28:15 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Blaster: if the transaction gets relayed, yes
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 710 2013-12-13 12:28:45 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Is there anything unusual about the transaction?
 711 2013-12-13 12:28:50 <Blaster> michagogo|cloud: no
 712 2013-12-13 12:28:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Does it pay a transaction fee?
 713 2013-12-13 12:28:56 <Blaster> except that it's on testnet
 714 2013-12-13 12:29:01 <Blaster> yes .0001
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 717 2013-12-13 12:30:22 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Are the sending and receiving nodes both well-connected?
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 719 2013-12-13 12:30:57 <Blaster> they are both on the same network
 720 2013-12-13 12:31:18 <Blaster> The receiving node my Vbox VM
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 723 2013-12-13 12:32:29 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|shrugs
 724 2013-12-13 12:33:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I assume they're fully synced?
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 728 2013-12-13 12:33:48 <Blaster> michagogo|cloud: yup
 729 2013-12-13 12:34:38 <tholenst> I don't think i'll be able to help you, but... what does it mean when you say "it receives payment notifications"? Is that the time you wait until the payment is confirmed?
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 731 2013-12-13 12:35:53 <Blaster> the point when walletnotify is called, it shows a notification bubble, and it shows the payment in recent transactions with 0 confirmations
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 734 2013-12-13 12:36:59 <Blaster> I was thinking that should take place immediately when a payment is sent to one of my addresses
 735 2013-12-13 12:37:56 <tholenst> I would think so too, but mind you, I know almost nothing :)
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 743 2013-12-13 12:42:52 <tholenst> If you like, I will try running walletnotify on my testnet node and see if I observe the same, but -- I don't actually see how this would help
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 801 2013-12-13 13:19:56 <__alp__> Ugh, just spent all night running reindexing (-reindex) and still gettransaction doesnt work
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 813 2013-12-13 13:26:51 <darsie> hi
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 817 2013-12-13 13:28:04 <darsie> Is it possible to use private keys that are to large or too small? 0 or >0xfffffffffffffff3623462346342 (or whatever the limit is)
 818 2013-12-13 13:29:16 <darsie> The idea is to create a bitcoin address  of PK 0 and use that to reliably and trustworthily distroy btc.
 819 2013-12-13 13:29:35 <darsie> destroy
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 823 2013-12-13 13:31:17 <wumpus> in that case you should use public key 0, private key 0 would be trivial for everyone to claim
 824 2013-12-13 13:31:50 <tholenst> See address 1111111111111111111114oLvT2, but I think the proper way to destroy bitcoins is OP_RETURN
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 827 2013-12-13 13:32:32 <darsie> wumpus: So even PK 0 could be used to sign a tx?
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 829 2013-12-13 13:33:16 <wumpus> darsie: sure
 830 2013-12-13 13:33:33 <wumpus> I guess the first key here is key 0 http://directory.io/
 831 2013-12-13 13:33:50 <darsie> Why is it exluded then from key generators?
 832 2013-12-13 13:34:11 <wumpus> is it?
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 835 2013-12-13 13:34:40 <darsie> Specifically, any 256-bit number between 0x1 and 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141 is a valid private key.
 836 2013-12-13 13:35:27 <darsie> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Private_key
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 839 2013-12-13 13:35:49 <darsie> Well, it doesn't say the keys outside this range are invalid ...
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 842 2013-12-13 13:36:23 <wumpus> oh right, I think I remember, private key 0 wouldn't provide any security because it will stay 0 under the ECDSA manipulations
 843 2013-12-13 13:36:45 <wumpus> after all it's a multiply
 844 2013-12-13 13:37:07 <__alp__> It's not 0 in that case, right?  It's just G?
 845 2013-12-13 13:37:09 <darsie> ic. So there isn't really a PK that can't be used for signing?
 846 2013-12-13 13:37:23 <darsie> sorry, secret key
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 848 2013-12-13 13:37:25 <darsie> SK
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 851 2013-12-13 13:38:15 <darsie> ahh, both private and public abbreveviate to P ... inconvenient.
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 853 2013-12-13 13:38:48 <Tyupi> hi
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 867 2013-12-13 13:46:03 <darsie> How about 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF 1234? Can you make valid signatures with that?
 868 2013-12-13 13:46:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|darsie: some software will simply wrap around
 869 2013-12-13 13:46:53 <notthemessiah> So, running the qt client on my 2005 laptop seems to crash the computer while indexing the block chain.
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 872 2013-12-13 13:47:33 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|darsie: if you want to destroy bitcoins, send them to a scriptPubKey of OP_RETURN
 873 2013-12-13 13:47:59 <darsie> michagogo|cloud: Ok. I don't understand that, though.
 874 2013-12-13 13:48:06 <darsie> thx
 875 2013-12-13 13:48:24 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|OP_RETURN makes a transaction's validation fail
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 878 2013-12-13 13:48:54 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Any output with a scriptPubKey that is, or begins with, OP_RETURN is provably unspendable
 879 2013-12-13 13:49:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And therefore can be pruned from the utxo set
 880 2013-12-13 13:49:31 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|__alp__: gettransaction is a wallet rpc
 881 2013-12-13 13:49:42 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|It will only ever work for transactions in your wallet
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 950 2013-12-13 14:35:22 <Tyupi> are there some server side php payment processor for accepting bitcoin instead of bitfreak's client-side processing?
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 958 2013-12-13 14:39:02 <abishek> what is the suitable datatype to store the amount in bitcoin?
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 961 2013-12-13 14:41:03 <kjj> decimal, arbitrary, string or 64-bit integer (the least good)
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 963 2013-12-13 14:41:57 <abishek> kjj, how many decimal points ?
 964 2013-12-13 14:42:08 <kjj> can also use floats, but need to be very careful about width, rounding, and error accumulation
 965 2013-12-13 14:42:14 <wumpus> as long as you don't use floating point it should be ok
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 969 2013-12-13 14:42:58 <abishek> kjj, varchar is much better if you want stay away from width, rounding and error accumulation, isn't it
 970 2013-12-13 14:43:03 <kjj> currently, the protocol works to a precision of 8 places past the decimal
 971 2013-12-13 14:43:03 <abishek> what you store is what you get
 972 2013-12-13 14:43:25 <abishek> ok
 973 2013-12-13 14:43:54 <kjj> if you understand how floats work and how to use them (you probably don't, and I don't mean that as a personal insult), they work just fine
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 975 2013-12-13 14:44:27 <wumpus> using floats is fine, but not for monetary amounts. just don't. you'll regret it.
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 977 2013-12-13 14:44:45 <BlueMatt> it is illegal to store money as floating point in some countries
 978 2013-12-13 14:44:47 <BlueMatt> (seriously)
 979 2013-12-13 14:45:05 <wumpus> BlueMatt: that makes sense
 980 2013-12-13 14:45:40 <BlueMatt> ok, maybe I'm wrong, but it should be
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 982 2013-12-13 14:45:49 <kjj> most of the time, you'll want to handle amounts in a way that matches how you will be interfacing with bitcoin.  if you are writing transactions in binary, using an int for satoshis may be your best bet
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 984 2013-12-13 14:46:21 <kjj> if you are working with RPC, you'll probably want a string (arbitrary) representation
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 990 2013-12-13 14:48:10 <kjj> I don't recommend the integer satoshi method except when you are writing your own transactions from scratch
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1012 2013-12-13 14:56:32 <abishek> i think i will go with varchar
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1034 2013-12-13 15:10:00 <BlueMatt> lol @king james programming
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1061 2013-12-13 15:20:35 <jgarzik> mornin'
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1065 2013-12-13 15:21:38 <BlueMatt> hi jgarzik
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1120 2013-12-13 15:52:41 <Temper> hello
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1122 2013-12-13 15:52:52 <Temper> does anyone want to talk theory?
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1159 2013-12-13 16:08:32 <jgarzik> Temper, you are welcome to ask or discuss anything on-topic
1160 2013-12-13 16:08:46 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1161 2013-12-13 16:08:55 <Temper> well i want to talk about designs in code not to loose bitcoins
1162 2013-12-13 16:09:06 <Temper> since they have suddenly become so valuable
1163 2013-12-13 16:09:10 <Temper> :)
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1166 2013-12-13 16:09:45 <BlueMatt> Temper: generally, if you start talking you['re more likely to get a response than if you ask to ask :)
1167 2013-12-13 16:09:46 datagutt has joined
1168 2013-12-13 16:09:57 <BlueMatt> (though it is still rather early in the us...maybe not so many people around)
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1178 2013-12-13 16:14:47 <kjj> HD wallets will remove the last structural opportunity for coin loss that I'm aware of
1179 2013-12-13 16:14:58 <Diablo-D3> high definition wallets
1180 2013-12-13 16:15:04 <kjj> well, reduce, I suppose
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1182 2013-12-13 16:15:53 <kjj> yup.  oversampled 192 kHz wallets
1183 2013-12-13 16:16:10 * BlueMatt still thinks sipa chose a terrible name
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1185 2013-12-13 16:16:37 <kjj> meh.  he's earned the right to a half dozen terrible names before I get worried
1186 2013-12-13 16:16:47 <BlueMatt> heh, thats true
1187 2013-12-13 16:16:57 <BlueMatt> though Im not sure there is an amount to put on that...
1188 2013-12-13 16:17:24 <kjj> I'll draw the line when he starts naming things for members of One Direction
1189 2013-12-13 16:17:34 <BlueMatt> heh
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1192 2013-12-13 16:18:07 <kjj> Temper: what's your mind?
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1194 2013-12-13 16:18:41 <Temper> ok so storage is not 100%
1195 2013-12-13 16:18:46 <Temper> you make a write..
1196 2013-12-13 16:18:51 <Temper> but it can fail
1197 2013-12-13 16:19:11 <Temper> however, a network like bitcoin is pretty much fail proof
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1200 2013-12-13 16:19:37 <Temper> so write to db, transact bitcoin, publish record, fail
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1203 2013-12-13 16:19:44 <Temper> you just lost it all
1204 2013-12-13 16:20:06 <BlueMatt> hd wallets help a ton with this
1205 2013-12-13 16:20:13 <Temper> hd?
1206 2013-12-13 16:20:16 <BlueMatt> once you get your one key safely stored, the rest is easy
1207 2013-12-13 16:20:22 <BlueMatt> heirachical deterministic
1208 2013-12-13 16:20:33 <Temper> hrmm
1209 2013-12-13 16:20:40 <BlueMatt> hierarchical*
1210 2013-12-13 16:20:43 <kjj> it means you only need to save one secret, and all other keys can be derived from that secret
1211 2013-12-13 16:20:53 <Temper> what i guessed
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1213 2013-12-13 16:21:05 <kjj> they have more capabilities, but in this discussion the important part is the single secret
1214 2013-12-13 16:21:06 <BlueMatt> its coming down the pipe in wallets, but its still some time off
1215 2013-12-13 16:21:10 <Temper> doesn't that mean that the keys are not that.. unique
1216 2013-12-13 16:21:12 <Temper> ?
1217 2013-12-13 16:21:16 <BlueMatt> no
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1219 2013-12-13 16:21:28 <BlueMatt> from the one secret you can derive infinite (essentially) keys
1220 2013-12-13 16:21:34 <Temper> the the addr is basically the pub key right?
1221 2013-12-13 16:21:47 <BlueMatt> well, more unique keys than you can calculate before the universe ends
1222 2013-12-13 16:21:48 <kjj> if you assume that ECDSA is safe, then HD wallets are also safe.
1223 2013-12-13 16:21:55 <BlueMatt> addr is hash(pubkey)
1224 2013-12-13 16:22:05 <Temper> ECDSA?
1225 2013-12-13 16:22:15 <kjj> the crypto we use
1226 2013-12-13 16:22:16 <BlueMatt> the signature algorithm bitcoin uses
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1230 2013-12-13 16:22:37 <Temper> well how does this one key allow you to recover transactions?
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1232 2013-12-13 16:22:46 <BlueMatt> magic :)
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1234 2013-12-13 16:22:50 <Temper> lost transactions
1235 2013-12-13 16:22:55 <Temper> oh well
1236 2013-12-13 16:22:55 <kjj> transactions are never lost
1237 2013-12-13 16:22:59 <Temper> i know
1238 2013-12-13 16:23:03 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki
1239 2013-12-13 16:23:06 <Temper> not for the btc network
1240 2013-12-13 16:23:08 <kjj> or rather, a lost transaction is the same as a transaction that never happened
1241 2013-12-13 16:23:12 <Temper> but maybe for me
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1245 2013-12-13 16:23:28 <Temper> not if it has been published
1246 2013-12-13 16:23:32 <null> Temper: think of a seed x_0 you input to a formula like x_i+1 = a*x_i + b mod c
1247 2013-12-13 16:23:46 <BlueMatt> if a tx has been published and ended up in the chain, its easy to find with a bloom filter and a peer
1248 2013-12-13 16:23:51 <Temper> yeah but none of this helps me do accounting
1249 2013-12-13 16:23:52 <BlueMatt> if its not in the chain, its lost
1250 2013-12-13 16:24:00 <null> Temper: you can generate a lot of random numers with it, but the sequence is uniquely defined by your seed, yet deterministic
1251 2013-12-13 16:24:05 <Temper> yeah the transactions happened
1252 2013-12-13 16:24:14 <Temper> but i mean i don't remember what i did
1253 2013-12-13 16:24:19 <Temper> who i sent the money to
1254 2013-12-13 16:24:26 <Temper> because my hd got amnesia
1255 2013-12-13 16:24:34 <Temper> they got it..
1256 2013-12-13 16:24:37 <kjj> that's not a problem that bitcoin can solve (nor should it try)
1257 2013-12-13 16:24:39 <Temper> sure
1258 2013-12-13 16:24:44 <Temper> oh no
1259 2013-12-13 16:24:45 <Temper> i know
1260 2013-12-13 16:24:51 <BlueMatt> you could use a function to convert from order id -> addr
1261 2013-12-13 16:24:54 <BlueMatt> (deterministically)
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1264 2013-12-13 16:24:56 <Temper> i am talking btc interface
1265 2013-12-13 16:25:03 <Temper> ahh
1266 2013-12-13 16:25:15 <Temper> using like 2 factor auth?
1267 2013-12-13 16:25:34 <Temper> well i don't have the order id either
1268 2013-12-13 16:25:38 <BlueMatt> esp if your order ids are monotonically increasing
1269 2013-12-13 16:26:13 <Temper> like take btc-e
1270 2013-12-13 16:26:22 <Temper> they do hundreds of transactions?
1271 2013-12-13 16:26:28 <Temper> an hour/min
1272 2013-12-13 16:26:29 <Temper> sec
1273 2013-12-13 16:26:31 <BlueMatt> bitcoin doesnt have a way to solve account tracking, no
1274 2013-12-13 16:26:36 <Temper> i know
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1277 2013-12-13 16:26:42 <Temper> i am trying to solve it
1278 2013-12-13 16:26:45 <BlueMatt> you could use hd wallet chains to map user id -> address chain
1279 2013-12-13 16:26:52 <BlueMatt> (ie set of addresses)
1280 2013-12-13 16:27:01 <Temper> hrmm
1281 2013-12-13 16:27:09 <Temper> so when i sign a transaction
1282 2013-12-13 16:27:15 <Temper> is it immediately sent
1283 2013-12-13 16:27:22 <Temper> outwards
1284 2013-12-13 16:27:29 <Temper> can i said a transaction
1285 2013-12-13 16:27:33 <Temper> err sign
1286 2013-12-13 16:27:47 <Temper> and then hold on to it
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1288 2013-12-13 16:27:51 <kjj> if you use sendtoaddress, etc, then yes, it is sent immediately
1289 2013-12-13 16:27:53 <Temper> secretly?
1290 2013-12-13 16:28:07 <kjj> if you use createrawtransaction/sign../send..  it isn't sent until you sendrawtransaction
1291 2013-12-13 16:28:20 <Temper> ahh
1292 2013-12-13 16:28:29 agnostic_ has joined
1293 2013-12-13 16:28:32 <Temper> and bitcoind
1294 2013-12-13 16:28:41 <Temper> how many "wallets" can it have open?
1295 2013-12-13 16:28:43 datagutt has joined
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1297 2013-12-13 16:28:53 <kjj> because of coinjoin, I'm thinking about adding rpc calls similar to sendtoaddress, sendmany, etc that return the raw TX rather than sending
1298 2013-12-13 16:29:06 <kjj> the reference client only uses one wallet
1299 2013-12-13 16:29:20 <BlueMatt> Temper: if youre looking at running a large set of transactions/addrs, bitcoind may not be the best bet...
1300 2013-12-13 16:29:29 Neozonz is now known as Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|neozonz
1301 2013-12-13 16:29:30 <BlueMatt> not that there is one I can truly recommend, but its not all that great
1302 2013-12-13 16:29:32 <Temper> why not?
1303 2013-12-13 16:29:44 <Temper> and what is?
1304 2013-12-13 16:29:46 <BlueMatt> it doesnt scale particularly well
1305 2013-12-13 16:29:49 <kjj> you have to shut the node down to switch, but that is almost certainly not the right way to solve whatever actual problem you are trying to solve
1306 2013-12-13 16:29:53 <BlueMatt> its wallet, that is
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1308 2013-12-13 16:30:17 agnostic98 has joined
1309 2013-12-13 16:30:22 <Temper> well like coinbase must have 600k wallets
1310 2013-12-13 16:30:31 <BlueMatt> I doubt they use bitcoind
1311 2013-12-13 16:30:44 <kjj> why must coinbase have so many wallets?
1312 2013-12-13 16:30:52 <BlueMatt> or even a client that keeps user wallet distinct beyond a db to track accounts
1313 2013-12-13 16:30:54 <Temper> they advertise that many customers
1314 2013-12-13 16:31:14 <kjj> doesn't mean they each need their own wallet
1315 2013-12-13 16:31:16 <Temper> but then 1 key opens them all?
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1318 2013-12-13 16:31:28 <kjj> in fact, it is better for privacy if all users are pooled
1319 2013-12-13 16:31:44 <BlueMatt> a shitton of keys open them all
1320 2013-12-13 16:31:52 <atian> kjj: its not pooled anymore
1321 2013-12-13 16:31:53 <BlueMatt> but they're all in one place (short cold storage wallet(s))
1322 2013-12-13 16:32:04 BurtyB has joined
1323 2013-12-13 16:32:10 <Temper> how is it more private to keep all that info in one place?
1324 2013-12-13 16:32:12 agnostic_ has joined
1325 2013-12-13 16:32:22 <Temper> seems like a horrible idea
1326 2013-12-13 16:32:32 <kjj> atian: that's crazy then.
1327 2013-12-13 16:32:36 <BlueMatt> Temper: its gonna be in one place whether you have 100 wallets on one server or 1 wallet with 100 accounts on one server
1328 2013-12-13 16:32:56 <BlueMatt> atian: ummm...recent withdraws of mine do not show a consistent set of coins being withdrawn from?
1329 2013-12-13 16:33:03 <kjj> if all of the accounts are pooled, the coins you withdraw were almost certainly someone else's deposit, not your own
1330 2013-12-13 16:33:25 <Temper> yeah that seems bad too
1331 2013-12-13 16:33:26 <BlueMatt> to be fair they were purchased with usd, but still
1332 2013-12-13 16:33:41 <Temper> because then the network does not enforce account balances
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1334 2013-12-13 16:33:47 <BlueMatt> Temper: coinbase does (as with any sane large bitcoinsite) keep most of their funds offline
1335 2013-12-13 16:33:50 agnosti__ has joined
1336 2013-12-13 16:34:03 <kjj> most large operations have offline ("cold") wallets for most storage, and only keep enough hot to settle short term flows
1337 2013-12-13 16:34:08 <Temper> they they have a slush fund
1338 2013-12-13 16:34:08 <atian> BlueMatt: i'm not quite sure at this point. A few months ago I was able to verify that they don't pool funds.
1339 2013-12-13 16:34:13 <Temper> and move in and out
1340 2013-12-13 16:34:24 agnostic98 has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
1341 2013-12-13 16:34:31 <atian> BlueMatt: they initially did, however.
1342 2013-12-13 16:34:44 <Temper> well then you are not in control of your money
1343 2013-12-13 16:34:49 <Temper> coinbase is
1344 2013-12-13 16:34:53 <Temper> or.. whatever
1345 2013-12-13 16:34:58 <kjj> yup
1346 2013-12-13 16:35:00 <Temper> they can run off
1347 2013-12-13 16:35:06 <kjj> yup
1348 2013-12-13 16:35:17 <Temper> well fuck that design
1349 2013-12-13 16:35:26 <Temper> err i mean.. that is a bad design
1350 2013-12-13 16:35:28 <kjj> you apparently missed the rash of webwallets that ran off...  :)
1351 2013-12-13 16:35:35 <Temper> nope
1352 2013-12-13 16:35:38 <Temper> that's bad too
1353 2013-12-13 16:35:39 agnosti__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1354 2013-12-13 16:35:42 agnostic98 has joined
1355 2013-12-13 16:35:54 <BlueMatt> atian: they do do some stuff to make sure txn sends appear to come from an addr thats in your account, but afaik the actual funds are pooled
1356 2013-12-13 16:36:24 <Temper> that's crazy
1357 2013-12-13 16:36:26 stephan_ has joined
1358 2013-12-13 16:36:30 <Temper> i would never keep a lot there
1359 2013-12-13 16:36:34 <atian> afaik they use [bitcoin-ruby](https://github.com/lian/bitcoin-ruby) library for a custom wallet implementation
1360 2013-12-13 16:36:35 <kjj> BlueMatt:  that's crazy again
1361 2013-12-13 16:36:36 Bumtime has joined
1362 2013-12-13 16:36:42 <BlueMatt> Temper: heh, yea, shittons of webwallets got hacked, "got hacked" or just disappeared
1363 2013-12-13 16:36:58 john5223 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1364 2013-12-13 16:37:02 <Temper> well
1365 2013-12-13 16:37:11 <Temper> my design will not be that way
1366 2013-12-13 16:37:19 <kjj> the beauty of bitcoin is that you don't _have to_ keep your money as an IOU from a third party, not that you _can't_
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1372 2013-12-13 16:37:29 <BlueMatt> there are a few webwallets that hold the keys locally, encrypted locally and on the server or so
1373 2013-12-13 16:37:30 <atian> BlueMatt: ah so thats what it is
1374 2013-12-13 16:37:38 <BlueMatt> but afaik they all autoupdate, so youre still fucked
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1378 2013-12-13 16:38:00 <Temper> how does auto update f-u
1379 2013-12-13 16:38:01 <Temper> ?
1380 2013-12-13 16:38:02 <atian> what do you guys mean by 'pooled'
1381 2013-12-13 16:38:16 nOgAn0o has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1382 2013-12-13 16:38:51 <kjj> atian: when I say pooled accounts, I mean just like the bitcoin wallet.  they keep a database of deposits, and the amount deposited matches their wallet balance, but nothing is tracked more closely than that
1383 2013-12-13 16:39:01 <BlueMatt> Temper: wallet can just update their code to send your coins to them without any way of you stopping
1384 2013-12-13 16:39:13 <Temper> yeah..
1385 2013-12-13 16:39:16 jgarzik_ has joined
1386 2013-12-13 16:39:20 <Temper> but it still needs your password
1387 2013-12-13 16:39:42 <w^hive> Centralized sites like that really freak me out. The bigger they get, the more focused attackers will be. To the point where I can easily imagine it being worthwhile to someone to go in their office, put a gun to Brian's head, and demand all the BTC be sent to some address.
1388 2013-12-13 16:39:42 <atian> kjj: ah ok. I think BlueMatt had something different
1389 2013-12-13 16:39:48 JyZyXEL has joined
1390 2013-12-13 16:39:52 <BlueMatt> ok, and after you enter your password the new code then sends your coins
1391 2013-12-13 16:39:55 <BlueMatt> either way...youre fucked
1392 2013-12-13 16:40:12 <Temper> yeah well you would hear about it
1393 2013-12-13 16:40:19 <Temper> so there is a delay
1394 2013-12-13 16:40:19 Gabralkhan has joined
1395 2013-12-13 16:40:22 tholenst` has joined
1396 2013-12-13 16:40:23 <w^hive> blockchain seems to be the only web wallet that gets it right.
1397 2013-12-13 16:40:24 <Temper> at least
1398 2013-12-13 16:40:30 <BlueMatt> true, but some % of people would lose coins
1399 2013-12-13 16:40:33 [\\\]_u has joined
1400 2013-12-13 16:40:35 McKay` has joined
1401 2013-12-13 16:40:36 <BlueMatt> and it could be done more stealthily
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1403 2013-12-13 16:40:37 <Temper> yeah but not everyone
1404 2013-12-13 16:40:44 <BlueMatt> just upload the keys for a month and likely no one would notice
1405 2013-12-13 16:40:55 <BlueMatt> then steal the coins when people notice and people are sol
1406 2013-12-13 16:41:05 <Temper> yeah
1407 2013-12-13 16:41:08 <Temper> could do that
1408 2013-12-13 16:41:12 <BlueMatt> w^hive: I wouldnt say they quite "get it right"
1409 2013-12-13 16:41:14 <kjj> anyone know a host with decent dedicated servers (or VMs without lame memory limits) that takes bitcoins and isn't too expensive?
1410 2013-12-13 16:41:17 <BlueMatt> see: auto-update discussion
1411 2013-12-13 16:41:28 <w^hive> Yeah, reading now...
1412 2013-12-13 16:41:43 <Temper> kjj i would hahah
1413 2013-12-13 16:42:10 <w^hive> BlueMatt: I assume a MITM attack could do that?
1414 2013-12-13 16:42:18 <BlueMatt> w^hive: 'getting it right" would mean multisig requiring something like 2-of-3 with webwallet + phone or something
1415 2013-12-13 16:42:21 <w^hive> BlueMatt: Meaning, you could just sit there and fetch passwords/keys all day... Then as you say, pull it out later.
1416 2013-12-13 16:42:21 <Temper> well if it is open source
1417 2013-12-13 16:42:24 <Temper> no way then
1418 2013-12-13 16:42:34 ThomasV has joined
1419 2013-12-13 16:42:35 <BlueMatt> w^hive: ideally ssl would protect you from that, but still, there are plenty of ways an attacker might get in
1420 2013-12-13 16:42:54 <BlueMatt> Temper: open source means nothing if no one audits or even checks that the code you're running is the same as the oss ones
1421 2013-12-13 16:42:55 <w^hive> BlueMatt: Indeed. SSL didn't seem to protect bitcointalk last week :)
1422 2013-12-13 16:43:20 <Temper> yeah but require approval?
1423 2013-12-13 16:43:29 <Temper> and a implementation delay.
1424 2013-12-13 16:43:38 Bwild has joined
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1426 2013-12-13 16:43:47 <BlueMatt> w^hive: or someone hacks bc.i itself, or makes malware that sits in your browser, or, or, or...
1427 2013-12-13 16:43:59 <w^hive> Right, right, right...
1428 2013-12-13 16:44:00 <BlueMatt> Temper: not sure how a webwallet served off a webserver could implement that
1429 2013-12-13 16:44:08 <BlueMatt> even eg chrome plugins auto-update w/o delay
1430 2013-12-13 16:44:12 <Temper> BlueMatt, no imagination?
1431 2013-12-13 16:44:20 ulio_ has joined
1432 2013-12-13 16:44:34 <BlueMatt> if you're looking at doing it in-browser, well in-chrome, I'm not aware of any way
1433 2013-12-13 16:44:46 <Temper> well
1434 2013-12-13 16:44:51 <BlueMatt> something outside of chrome could easily work
1435 2013-12-13 16:44:51 <Temper> i dunno yet
1436 2013-12-13 16:45:03 bmcgee has joined
1437 2013-12-13 16:45:10 <Temper> but i am good at system design
1438 2013-12-13 16:45:19 <Temper> really good
1439 2013-12-13 16:45:35 <BlueMatt> I'd like to see a webwallet with a native component where most of the coins are controlled by you and then the webwallet gets slush so that you can transact daily with it
1440 2013-12-13 16:45:46 <BlueMatt> eg 2-of-3 with phone, offline key and webwallet
1441 2013-12-13 16:45:57 <w^hive> BlueMatt: What does that mean, "gets slush" ?
1442 2013-12-13 16:46:00 pankkake_ has joined
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1445 2013-12-13 16:46:00 <BlueMatt> and then some tiny number of coins in just the webwallet
1446 2013-12-13 16:46:06 throughn1thing has joined
1447 2013-12-13 16:46:07 <BlueMatt> ie offline cold storage + online hotwallet
1448 2013-12-13 16:46:07 xeroc_ has joined
1449 2013-12-13 16:46:14 <w^hive> OK
1450 2013-12-13 16:46:15 qwertyoruiop has joined
1451 2013-12-13 16:46:15 <Temper> i am going to build a webwallet that the website never has control of your coins
1452 2013-12-13 16:46:30 rys_ has joined
1453 2013-12-13 16:46:33 <BlueMatt> Temper: without a native component, afaik, that isnt possible
1454 2013-12-13 16:46:44 omniden_ has joined
1455 2013-12-13 16:46:46 <w^hive> BlueMatt: And again, what do you mean by "native component" ?
1456 2013-12-13 16:46:54 omniden has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
1457 2013-12-13 16:46:54 <BlueMatt> something that runs outside of the browser
1458 2013-12-13 16:47:00 <Temper> yeah native component is a worthless term
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1460 2013-12-13 16:47:12 kanzure has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
1461 2013-12-13 16:47:13 <maraoz> Anyone knows a way to broadcast transactions using OP_RETURN, like this one? https://blockchain.info/tx/1a2e22a717d626fc5db363582007c46924ae6b28319f07cb1b907776bd8293fc
1462 2013-12-13 16:47:16 jdnavarro has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1463 2013-12-13 16:47:17 <Temper> well what's wrong with that?
1464 2013-12-13 16:47:18 FabianB has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1465 2013-12-13 16:47:18 ulio has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1466 2013-12-13 16:47:19 <BlueMatt> well, outside of browser means something that runs natively on the os
1467 2013-12-13 16:47:22 <BlueMatt> or java or whatever
1468 2013-12-13 16:47:23 msvb-lab has joined
1469 2013-12-13 16:47:25 <w^hive> Why would that be less susceptible to tampering than something browser-based? Just because the browser is a more frequently attacked product?
1470 2013-12-13 16:47:36 <BlueMatt> maraoz: maybe ask Luke-Jr how to get it to eligius/
1471 2013-12-13 16:47:39 Someguy123 has quit (Excess Flood)
1472 2013-12-13 16:47:50 <BlueMatt> w^hive: you cant stop auto-update in the browser, afaik
1473 2013-12-13 16:47:53 <Temper> how many keys can be used to open a wallet?
1474 2013-12-13 16:48:00 <BlueMatt> not even auto-update with delay
1475 2013-12-13 16:48:04 serialbandicoot has joined
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1485 2013-12-13 16:48:25 <Temper> so can i require 2-3 keys to open?
1486 2013-12-13 16:48:28 asoltys has joined
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1488 2013-12-13 16:48:37 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: Eligius doesn't mine spam
1489 2013-12-13 16:48:38 <BlueMatt> yes, or any m-of-n with some limits I dont remember
1490 2013-12-13 16:48:40 <maraoz> BlueMatt: thanks. I tried their push transaction service (http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/pushtxn.php) but it doesn't work with OP_RETURN
1491 2013-12-13 16:48:47 d9b4bef9 has joined
1492 2013-12-13 16:48:48 <BlueMatt> ahh
1493 2013-12-13 16:48:54 ebfull_ has joined
1494 2013-12-13 16:48:55 <BlueMatt> are there any pools mining OP_RETURN yet?
1495 2013-12-13 16:49:00 wrabbit has quit (Disconnected by services)
1496 2013-12-13 16:49:03 <Luke-Jr> hopefully none will
1497 2013-12-13 16:49:07 wrabbit has joined
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1499 2013-12-13 16:49:24 <maraoz> Why not Luke?
1500 2013-12-13 16:49:48 <Luke-Jr> because spam is bad.
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1504 2013-12-13 16:50:07 <Temper> so is that all there is to a transaction
1505 2013-12-13 16:50:15 <Temper> inputs, outputs, sign
1506 2013-12-13 16:50:19 <Temper> send?
1507 2013-12-13 16:50:22 knotwork has joined
1508 2013-12-13 16:50:25 <maraoz> How is OP_RETURN spam?
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1510 2013-12-13 16:50:47 <BlueMatt> Temper: yea, I suppose
1511 2013-12-13 16:50:56 <BlueMatt> though inputs and outputs are more complicated than just that
1512 2013-12-13 16:50:59 <BlueMatt> they're scripts...
1513 2013-12-13 16:51:01 <Luke-Jr> maraoz: anything that is data is spam to Bitcoin
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1518 2013-12-13 16:52:10 <BlueMatt> maraoz: bitcoin is a transaction network, many (most?) people see anything but transactions to be spam
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1521 2013-12-13 16:52:39 <Temper> BlueMatt, how is a input or output a script?
1522 2013-12-13 16:52:59 <BlueMatt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
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1526 2013-12-13 16:56:20 <maraoz> I don't know... many (including myself) think of bitcoin as a distributed consensus ledger, and that's why OP_RETURN is being introduced, isn't it? (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2738)
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1532 2013-12-13 16:59:23 <w^hive> BlueMatt: Has there ever been an abuse of the browser extension auto-update feature that is notable?
1533 2013-12-13 16:59:37 <w^hive> BlueMatt: And by the way, I'm not suggesting that there won't be...
1534 2013-12-13 17:00:12 <Temper> what the heck is this?
1535 2013-12-13 17:00:16 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1536 2013-12-13 17:00:31 <Temper> it looks like asm
1537 2013-12-13 17:00:34 <Luke-Jr> maraoz: OP_RETURN is being introduced because we can't realistically stop all spam, not because spam is acceptable.
1538 2013-12-13 17:01:14 <Luke-Jr> maraoz: the blockchain is a shared resource - even if you think spam is acceptable, it isn't right to force it on those who don't.
1539 2013-12-13 17:01:53 <maraoz> Luke, I'm not trying to troll or anything, serious discussion. How does OP_RETURN spam the blockchain? If you pay tx fees and have a provably unspendable output what resource are you wasting?
1540 2013-12-13 17:01:58 <Temper> Luke-Jr, and it isn't right for them not to accept it
1541 2013-12-13 17:02:00 drayah has joined
1542 2013-12-13 17:02:06 <w^hive> Luke-Jr: How does OP_RETURN work?
1543 2013-12-13 17:02:16 bbroad_ has joined
1544 2013-12-13 17:02:19 <BlueMatt> maraoz: depends entirely on personal opinion, personally, I ack'd the OP_RETURN pull because it provides a better path-of-least-resistance than putting data in addresses or so
1545 2013-12-13 17:02:24 <gmaxwell> maraoz: bandwidth and storage for tens of thousands of people running a bitcoin node who just want to use the currency.
1546 2013-12-13 17:02:36 rdymac has joined
1547 2013-12-13 17:02:50 <w^hive> (...as an anti-spam measure)
1548 2013-12-13 17:02:57 <BlueMatt> w^hive: not afaik, but I'm not sure I would know, also, afaik there arent many browser extensions that store money :p
1549 2013-12-13 17:02:58 <Luke-Jr> maraoz: tx fees do not pay for transaction costs, they are a deterrent to spam (ie, they exist to try to dissuade you from doing it)
1550 2013-12-13 17:03:01 <gmaxwell> maraoz: the data still must be stored forever, it just doesn't need to be in fast storage (the validation working set)
1551 2013-12-13 17:03:09 <Luke-Jr> maraoz: the UTXO set is not the only resource
1552 2013-12-13 17:03:34 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: OP_RETURN isn't at all antispam
1553 2013-12-13 17:03:40 wei__ has joined
1554 2013-12-13 17:03:45 <Temper> so these scripts are just random?
1555 2013-12-13 17:04:06 <w^hive> Luke-Jr: So what did you mean above about it being introduced because 'we can't realistically stop all spam...'
1556 2013-12-13 17:04:15 <gmaxwell> Basically people were abusively using bitcoin by storing garbage data in "addresses" which could never have spent, which bloated up the working set which must be in fast memory for validation, even though they'll never be spent.
1557 2013-12-13 17:04:31 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: we can't stop the spam; OP_RETURN gives spammers a way to abuse *fewer* resources
1558 2013-12-13 17:04:32 <gmaxwell> There is no easily deployed reliable way to prevent this.
1559 2013-12-13 17:04:39 <w^hive> Aha.
1560 2013-12-13 17:04:42 Sleepnbum has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1561 2013-12-13 17:04:46 <w^hive> Options for spammers. Cute. :)
1562 2013-12-13 17:05:02 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't make the spam suddenly acceptable
1563 2013-12-13 17:05:04 <w^hive> Yeah it seems to me like massive blockchain spam is just an inevitable fact of blockchain life, isn't it?
1564 2013-12-13 17:05:15 <BlueMatt> Temper: they are programs which get executed, their return value dictates whether a spend is legitimate
1565 2013-12-13 17:05:17 <w^hive> If it was inherently not designed to prevent it in any respect.
1566 2013-12-13 17:05:19 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: it's solvable, but not easily
1567 2013-12-13 17:05:33 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: transaction fees and miners were designed as antispam measurew
1568 2013-12-13 17:05:45 treaki__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1569 2013-12-13 17:05:52 <maraoz> I still don't understand. The transaction will be stored in the blockchain as any other transaction
1570 2013-12-13 17:05:55 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: part of the reason humans are miners, is because humans can make changing decisions about how to filter spam
1571 2013-12-13 17:06:05 <Luke-Jr> maraoz: exactly the problem
1572 2013-12-13 17:06:08 <BlueMatt> maraoz: blockchain != utxo set
1573 2013-12-13 17:06:11 <Luke-Jr> maraoz: we don't want your spam in the blockchain
1574 2013-12-13 17:06:16 <Temper> yeah so how is this network not a bit super computer that someone with the key cannot control?
1575 2013-12-13 17:06:29 <Luke-Jr> ("we" being a subset of all bitcoin users)
1576 2013-12-13 17:06:31 <Temper> bit=big
1577 2013-12-13 17:06:35 <gmaxwell> Imagine someone is dumping toxic waste on your lawn, and you can't stop them.. but you add a trash bin hoping that they'll use that becuase it at least makes it less costly.  It's still costly to you, and not welcome, but less so.
1578 2013-12-13 17:06:39 <w^hive> Luke-Jr: That makes sense, but on the other hand you'll soon have people building whole businesses on blockchain spam.
1579 2013-12-13 17:06:43 <w^hive> If we don't already...
1580 2013-12-13 17:06:46 <maraoz> Can we have an respectful discussion?
1581 2013-12-13 17:07:01 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: soon? we have for a long time.
1582 2013-12-13 17:07:10 <w^hive> Yeah, I know how you feel about Satoshi Dice Luke :)
1583 2013-12-13 17:07:18 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: the bigger problem right now is that most miners neglect their duties to filter spam
1584 2013-12-13 17:07:21 <w^hive> But I mean things like "Proof of Existence"
1585 2013-12-13 17:07:33 <BlueMatt> w^hive: that exists
1586 2013-12-13 17:07:37 <BlueMatt> (and has for a long time)
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1588 2013-12-13 17:07:47 <gmaxwell> w^hive: "Proof of Existence" is even worse because it can be done with absolutely zero blockchain impact.
1589 2013-12-13 17:08:02 <w^hive> I know it exists. My point is that these things are only going to become more popular.
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1591 2013-12-13 17:08:25 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: we need to hire 10 full-time devs to make the paths of least resistance better here
1592 2013-12-13 17:08:28 <w^hive> gmaxwell: Zero? How? I mean, assuming that you want the massive proliferation of your "proof"
1593 2013-12-13 17:08:29 Sleepnbum is now known as Guest33658
1594 2013-12-13 17:08:30 <gmaxwell> nah. transaction fees do provide an ultimate backtop.
1595 2013-12-13 17:08:33 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: they shouldn't be using the blockchain
1596 2013-12-13 17:08:35 <gmaxwell> er backstop.
1597 2013-12-13 17:08:46 <BlueMatt> these things should have an easy library to build on...
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1600 2013-12-13 17:09:01 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: wanting massive proliferation does not justify forcing people to store it who don't want to
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1602 2013-12-13 17:09:12 <gmaxwell> w^hive: so? the proof being available is trivial. Proof of existance does not require storage at all.
1603 2013-12-13 17:09:12 <BlueMatt> w^hive: you could merge-mine a chain that has proofs-of-existance in it
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1605 2013-12-13 17:09:26 <BlueMatt> but, better yet, you dont need a blockchain at all
1606 2013-12-13 17:09:27 <w^hive> Luke-Jr: Maybe not, but that moral point is not going to be heard by anyone unless there is a consequence.
1607 2013-12-13 17:09:35 <BlueMatt> there are 100 ways to publish a hash provably
1608 2013-12-13 17:09:53 <gmaxwell> w^hive: you can commit to data existing just by merge mining the hash, and that adds no storage to the blockchain.
1609 2013-12-13 17:09:58 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: hence why miners need to stop being lazy and do their job filtering spam
1610 2013-12-13 17:09:59 <w^hive> BlueMatt: Yeah I get your point.
1611 2013-12-13 17:10:10 <Temper> if transactions are programs.. then how can you not hack the network?
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1613 2013-12-13 17:10:39 <BlueMatt> w^hive: miners need to stop being lazy in general...
1614 2013-12-13 17:10:39 <gmaxwell> Temper: thats really a bitcoin 101 question and not really sutable for this channel.
1615 2013-12-13 17:10:50 <w^hive> Luke-Jr: Do you think that inappropriate transaction fees are the reason they're not doing it now?
1616 2013-12-13 17:11:13 <w^hive> Inappropriate incentive structure for doing the "right thing"
1617 2013-12-13 17:11:21 <Temper> well how to make transactions is part of dev
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1619 2013-12-13 17:11:40 <Temper> and if not dev then who
1620 2013-12-13 17:12:05 <Temper> does an input transaction have to be one of yours?
1621 2013-12-13 17:12:15 <Temper> or is it just any valid transaction?
1622 2013-12-13 17:12:25 <gmaxwell> Temper: please take the beginner questions to #bitcoin
1623 2013-12-13 17:13:08 <maraoz> I still don't see how an OP_RETURN transaction which pays fees is different from a regular transaction. It doesn't waste storage space as much as any regular transaction.
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1625 2013-12-13 17:13:22 <Temper> wow.. rude all of a sudden
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1628 2013-12-13 17:14:13 <gmaxwell> Temper: sorry, it just doesn't belong here. People try to read the backscroll high bitcoin101 traffic makes that hard. I'm not trying to be rude.
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1631 2013-12-13 17:15:21 <Temper> well you don't seem to make sense.. you say a transaction is a script, but for info on scripts goto the 101 room?
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1633 2013-12-13 17:15:42 <Temper> i program.. and the transactions look more complicated then code
1634 2013-12-13 17:15:42 <kuzetsa> have to say I agree
1635 2013-12-13 17:15:58 <w^hive> Same here. :)
1636 2013-12-13 17:16:00 <maraoz> And I'd like to discuss how to best implement services like proofofexistence.com over bitcoin. It's not easy if anytime I bring up the topic people call me spammer :(
1637 2013-12-13 17:16:01 <Temper> with who?
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1640 2013-12-13 17:16:15 <w^hive> With Temper.
1641 2013-12-13 17:16:16 <gmaxwell> maraoz: it doesn't waste storage less, it just avoids perpetual workingset bloat (same as a normal transaction). Forcing other people to store your data— people who are just interested in having a trustworthy decenteralized currency is a cost externalization.
1642 2013-12-13 17:16:23 <kuzetsa> Temper: with you -- I don't see gmaxwell's point / why shouldn't it be allowed to talk about the scripts code in here.
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1646 2013-12-13 17:17:15 <w^hive> Yikes.
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1652 2013-12-13 17:18:42 <w^hive> House rules, I guess.
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1655 2013-12-13 17:19:46 <w^hive> Luke-Jr: You never answered me about the transaction fees; do you think those, inappropriately calibrated, are the cause of miners being lazy?
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1657 2013-12-13 17:20:13 <gmaxwell> Being able to follow whats going on in the reference client and on the network is important in people's freedom and autonomy in bitcoin. We have lots of great places to tell people about how bitcoin works, this just isn't one of them.
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1660 2013-12-13 17:22:19 <maraoz> gmaxwell: Thanks for your honest answer. So it's a question of how you see the bitcoin network. I tend to see it as a decentralized consensus system, not just a platform for a digital currency.
1661 2013-12-13 17:22:21 kuzetsa has joined
1662 2013-12-13 17:24:38 <maraoz> I have updated proofofexistence.com to use OP_RETURN. I'd love to push changes once I find a way to get those transactions relayed and mined
1663 2013-12-13 17:25:48 <BlueMatt> how about not putting the proofs in transactions at all?
1664 2013-12-13 17:25:58 <BlueMatt> just make a merkle of the hashes you want to prove and merged-mine it
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1666 2013-12-13 17:26:34 <BlueMatt> Im sure Luke-Jr would be willing to merged-mine that
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1671 2013-12-13 17:30:40 <gmaxwell> maraoz: it's not clear if what you want is even possible. Lets imagine there are no transaction fees and no limits on block sizes, and no cultural pressure against non-currency transactions.  Someone then decides backups are expensive and it would be cheaper to have the 100k nodes of the bitcoin network store their data. So they produce a series of large blocks stuffing 1TB into the blockchain.  ... then what?  Presumably ...
1672 2013-12-13 17:30:46 <gmaxwell> ... cram-crap-in-coin is over.
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1674 2013-12-13 17:31:43 <maraoz> BlueMatt: Thanks for the suggestion (I think gmaxwell suggested this too). I understand how merkle trees work, but would that mean creating something like an alt-coin? An alt-blockchain in fact, no coins?
1675 2013-12-13 17:31:52 <BlueMatt> nope
1676 2013-12-13 17:31:56 <BlueMatt> you dont need a chain at all for this
1677 2013-12-13 17:32:03 <BlueMatt> just a merkle tree in the coinbase
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1679 2013-12-13 17:32:36 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: oooh, sorry -- I hadn't realized the topic being discussed was related to the scenario you just described (non-transaction data... I don't understand how the script code works well enough, apparently, to realize that OP_RETURN is inherently non-monetary by bitcoin standards)
1680 2013-12-13 17:33:55 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1681 2013-12-13 17:33:55 <BlueMatt> also, there's nothing wrong with creating an alt-coin that doesnt attempt to store value...if you're doing soemthing interesting, why not?
1682 2013-12-13 17:34:21 patcon has joined
1683 2013-12-13 17:34:25 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: you would have to ask the lazy miners why they insist on being lazy.
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1689 2013-12-13 17:34:44 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: seems to me the lead cause is denial of responsbility - they just want to be paid, and not do the work
1690 2013-12-13 17:34:47 <BlueMatt> ugh, miners need to get off their ass
1691 2013-12-13 17:35:15 <w^hive> Luke-Jr: So maybe the whole model is broken?
1692 2013-12-13 17:35:18 <gmaxwell> many people don't know that miners play any role other than the initial currency distibution, I suspect.
1693 2013-12-13 17:35:27 <Luke-Jr> maraoz: Bitcoin can be used as a decentralised consensus system *without* bloating the blockchain
1694 2013-12-13 17:35:45 <maraoz> gmaxwell: I see. What would prevent the same scenario to happen using the inefficient method I currently use in proofofexistence? (storing data in addresses)
1695 2013-12-13 17:35:51 <w^hive> Luke-Jr: If all miners appear lazy then surely we cannot say much more than "miners are not properly incentivized to not be lazy"
1696 2013-12-13 17:36:16 <w^hive> But I guess the real test comes with larger block sizes...
1697 2013-12-13 17:36:33 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: not all.
1698 2013-12-13 17:36:42 <Luke-Jr> w^hive: a number of miners use p2pool and custom bitcoind code
1699 2013-12-13 17:36:58 <Luke-Jr> some actively choose to mine on Eligius because they know we filter spam better
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1701 2013-12-13 17:37:53 <gmaxwell> maraoz: right now, blocksizes are limited and so eventually transaction fees would make it infeasable to store more data. It's impossible to add more than 50gbish of data/yr to the chain right now.. at least in bitcoin thats some of what prevents that.
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1703 2013-12-13 17:38:13 <gmaxwell> maraoz: in any case for proofs, you don't need to store data at all. See https://github.com/goblin/chronobit
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1706 2013-12-13 17:39:28 <gmaxwell> (chronobit is more complicated than need be because it integrates via p2pool but it demonstrates the idea)
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1709 2013-12-13 17:43:50 <maraoz> gmaxwell: Does chronobit use the bitcoin network? I'm sorry, I don't understand perl for the details. Would it need miners to specifically contribute to this document timestamping service?
1710 2013-12-13 17:44:18 <UukGoblin> yeah, actually - chronobit could indeed just work as a merged mining thing, without depending on p2pool
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1713 2013-12-13 17:44:53 <UukGoblin> maraoz, yes, chronobit does use the bitcoin network. It embeds the data to be timestamped in the coinbase of each block, together with all the other merged mining chains (like namecoin)
1714 2013-12-13 17:45:12 <UukGoblin> feel free to join #chronobit for more details, I haven't had a visitor there in ages ;-)
1715 2013-12-13 17:45:15 <gmaxwell> maraoz: yes, and yes. Of course, bitcoin transactions require miners to commit to them too, so needing miner participation isn't a fundimental hurdle.
1716 2013-12-13 17:45:36 Spiralmind has joined
1717 2013-12-13 17:45:48 <UukGoblin> (although having said that, I have to run... bbl)
1718 2013-12-13 17:45:51 <gmaxwell> The benefit is that you can commit to infinite documents, and add no data to Bitcoin in the process, and yet they are still provable as of a certian date via the network.
1719 2013-12-13 17:46:07 <UukGoblin> nodnod
1720 2013-12-13 17:46:13 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell is better at explaining my code than I am ;-D
1721 2013-12-13 17:46:17 <UukGoblin> (thank you gmaxwell)
1722 2013-12-13 17:46:56 wrabbit has joined
1723 2013-12-13 17:48:21 <maraoz> Sorry, I'm slow. I'll ask UukGoblin to explain chronobit in private. Thanks everyone!
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1732 2013-12-13 17:59:21 <MoALTz> there being 80 bytes free for the proveably unspendable vouts is interesting because 80 bytes is also currently the size of block headers. deliberately so?
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1735 2013-12-13 18:01:17 <Luke-Jr> MoALTz: there aren't 80
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1740 2013-12-13 18:05:51 <MoALTz> Luke-Jr: right. i misread/misunderstood https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2738#discussion-diff-6530132
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1748 2013-12-13 18:13:33 <andytoshi> is a transaction without any outputs legal?
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1756 2013-12-13 18:15:26 <lianj> andytoshi: no
1757 2013-12-13 18:15:29 <lianj> CheckTransaction() : vout empty
1758 2013-12-13 18:15:48 Sealy has joined
1759 2013-12-13 18:15:49 <andytoshi> kk thx
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1765 2013-12-13 18:23:16 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: no, but a transaction with a single output with op_return is almost the same thing as no outputs at all.
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1768 2013-12-13 18:24:22 <andytoshi> fair enough
1769 2013-12-13 18:24:30 <andytoshi> my question is specifically about the parser in coinjoin..
1770 2013-12-13 18:24:46 <andytoshi> i might want it to accept 0-output transactions anyway, since the merged transaction could have more than zero
1771 2013-12-13 18:25:17 <andytoshi> "i want to secretly give this dust to the miners"
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1773 2013-12-13 18:29:03 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: right, e.g. dust-be-gone.  DBG just has everyone sign a anyone-can-pay  transaction with a single OP_RETURN 0 value output.  This is pretty distinguishable though.  being able to give your dust up to random coinjoins would be better.
1774 2013-12-13 18:29:41 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: you could also do something adaptive where if the fee is less than 0.0001kb (based on an estimated size) it goes to fees, if it's greater, it goes to your donation output if you have one. :)
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1776 2013-12-13 18:30:05 <andytoshi> :) i've thought about that actually, i'm a little concerned about the ethics
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1779 2013-12-13 18:30:25 <andytoshi> arguably everyone should be double checking before they submit and before they sign, but accidents happen..
1780 2013-12-13 18:31:13 <gmaxwell> of taking excess as donations?  hm. well createraw won't create an outputless transaction.
1781 2013-12-13 18:31:59 <gmaxwell> I'd suggest you just define two "special" outputs. e.g. 1donate111111111...4e9aj  and 1fee111111...
1782 2013-12-13 18:32:19 <gmaxwell> and then when you merge, replace those outputs with a per merge donation address, and remove the fee one.
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1785 2013-12-13 18:32:48 <gmaxwell> at least if you continue to use a raw txn as your interface (which is, in fact a pretty good interface, since you can ask people to sign it to prove they can spend the coins)
1786 2013-12-13 18:32:58 <andytoshi> that's a pretty good idea
1787 2013-12-13 18:33:04 <andytoshi> both counts
1788 2013-12-13 18:33:17 <andytoshi> it would also let me hide my donation address
1789 2013-12-13 18:33:19 <gmaxwell> and then you can require inputs == outputs, and less risk of a mistake.
1790 2013-12-13 18:33:27 <gmaxwell> and yea, it would.
1791 2013-12-13 18:34:41 <andytoshi> i think i'll implement that, and i'll also think about how display the current outputs without revealing too much
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1793 2013-12-13 18:35:12 <andytoshi> if they're always on display, NSA will just slurp them and then they'll know which transactions are coinjoins, since i'd expect many to have a pretty-unique output set
1794 2013-12-13 18:35:19 <andytoshi> value set*
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1796 2013-12-13 18:36:49 <gmaxwell> well you could just say what the most popular value is, which is the most important data point.
1797 2013-12-13 18:37:06 <andytoshi> yeah, that's what i'm leaning towards
1798 2013-12-13 18:37:18 <maraoz> gmaxwell: what do you think of this method http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ssxd4/long_time_lurker_first_time_poster_i_just_made_a/ce0wp6v ?
1799 2013-12-13 18:37:37 <andytoshi> i've gotta run right now, but if anyone wants to play, the naive version is working http://testing.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/
1800 2013-12-13 18:37:42 <gmaxwell> maraoz: no, thats a crappy way which bloats the blockchain.
1801 2013-12-13 18:37:52 <andytoshi> it merges donation spends and the cronjob works, that's the only change from yesterday
1802 2013-12-13 18:38:25 <gmaxwell> maraoz: less crappy than a junk address, but basically the same as an op-return.
1803 2013-12-13 18:38:37 <andytoshi> i did a ton of refactoring work on coinjoin (if you look at git HEAD, it has no lexer, so the parser is completely unreadable copy-paste code)
1804 2013-12-13 18:38:45 <gmaxwell> maraoz: the right thing to do for timestamping is to add them to the MM tree as that adds no data for anyone.
1805 2013-12-13 18:38:46 <andytoshi> but i hit a rustc bug so it won't compile :(
1806 2013-12-13 18:39:20 <maraoz> gmaxwell: I'll check chronobit then.
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1830 2013-12-13 19:06:38 <abishek> are there any special characters that are not allowed on the rpc username or password?
1831 2013-12-13 19:11:47 andytoshi-away is now known as andytoshi
1832 2013-12-13 19:12:17 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1833 2013-12-13 19:12:57 <Emcy> The people behind FrostWire are working hard to implement Bitcoin support in their BitTorrent client........they are also integrating a Bitcoin wallet into the BitTorrent client.
1834 2013-12-13 19:13:00 <Emcy> oh god
1835 2013-12-13 19:13:23 <BlueMatt> ooo, I hope they do micropayments for dl bandwidth
1836 2013-12-13 19:14:48 <maraoz> That'd be awesome!
1837 2013-12-13 19:16:02 <jgarzik> bittorrent grows a bitcoin wallet?  http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-client-devs-work-on-bitcoin-integration-131213/
1838 2013-12-13 19:16:26 <jgarzik> they want to integrate with existing wallets, but also sounds like they want a minimal embedded wallet as well
1839 2013-12-13 19:16:38 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1840 2013-12-13 19:17:05 patcon has joined
1841 2013-12-13 19:17:11 <Denim-jdev> also bitcoin metadata in torrents
1842 2013-12-13 19:17:15 <BlueMatt> and ofc, like everyone else, thy're going to implement their own from scratch and fuck it up
1843 2013-12-13 19:17:20 <Denim-jdev> so you can donate to content creators
1844 2013-12-13 19:17:38 ebfull_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1845 2013-12-13 19:18:24 ebfull has joined
1846 2013-12-13 19:19:56 <BlueMatt> yay, google play music has an html5 player, but to enable it you have to install flash so it can store the no-flash cookie......
1847 2013-12-13 19:19:58 <BlueMatt> wtf
1848 2013-12-13 19:21:15 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1856 2013-12-13 19:28:49 <lechuga> doesnt chrome have flash built in
1857 2013-12-13 19:30:18 <Luke-Jr> no
1858 2013-12-13 19:30:29 <BlueMatt> chrome: yes, chromium: no
1859 2013-12-13 19:33:06 <Luke-Jr> oh
1860 2013-12-13 19:33:10 <Luke-Jr> there's a distinction O.o
1861 2013-12-13 19:33:17 tonokip has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1862 2013-12-13 19:33:57 <pigeons> chromium comes with spying enabled, chrome comes with spying activated
1863 2013-12-13 19:34:17 zcopley has joined
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1865 2013-12-13 19:35:15 <jgarzik> heh
1866 2013-12-13 19:36:06 <lianj> ^^
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1883 2013-12-13 20:00:47 <flok> I'm looking for a dutch economist who wants to talk at a conference given by a large university in amsterdam. please mail to mail@vanheusden.com
1884 2013-12-13 20:01:36 <Luke-Jr> flok: wrong chnanel
1885 2013-12-13 20:01:44 deanclkclk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1886 2013-12-13 20:01:57 <flok> oh sorry
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1899 2013-12-13 20:15:38 <roconnor> Would it be better if POW was a short chain of hashes below a target rather than a single hash in order to reduce the variance in block times, or is there a downside that I am not seeing?
1900 2013-12-13 20:16:43 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1901 2013-12-13 20:16:47 <BlueMatt> aside from increased verification costs (minimal assuming a short chain), that sounds fun
1902 2013-12-13 20:17:09 <roconnor> thanks
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1906 2013-12-13 20:19:48 <gmaxwell> roconnor: bzzt.
1907 2013-12-13 20:19:57 <roconnor> bzzt?
1908 2013-12-13 20:20:11 <gmaxwell> roconnor: unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, indeed that has downsides.
1909 2013-12-13 20:20:16 <roconnor> oh?
1910 2013-12-13 20:20:38 <gmaxwell> Its not progress free, a faster miner has an advantage. E.g. you wouldn't solve just a linear proportion of the blocks.
1911 2013-12-13 20:20:59 <BlueMatt> ahh, yes
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1913 2013-12-13 20:21:01 <roconnor> oooh
1914 2013-12-13 20:21:22 <gmaxwell> Also, lower variance means that long reorgs e.g. repeated ties would be more common, meaning longer reorgs.
1915 2013-12-13 20:21:55 <BlueMatt> meh, we dont (well, realistically souldnt if our net code was good) see many long reorgs anyway
1916 2013-12-13 20:22:15 <roconnor> the faster miner advanatage is well taken
1917 2013-12-13 20:22:55 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it would have roughly the same orphaning impact as reducing the interblock time such that the variance was the same.
1918 2013-12-13 20:23:14 <gmaxwell> (not quite the same, since such changes influence the distribution, not just the mean)
1919 2013-12-13 20:23:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmm, yes
1920 2013-12-13 20:23:47 <BlueMatt> yea, guess its not a win over just decreasing block time
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1922 2013-12-13 20:25:23 <gmaxwell> maybe it is when the times really start getting down to network diameter, I'd have to think harder.
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1924 2013-12-13 20:25:46 <BlueMatt> well in that case you're probably fucked anyway
1925 2013-12-13 20:26:40 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, how goes the relay project?
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1957 2013-12-13 20:57:20 <cfields> jgarzik: ping
1958 2013-12-13 20:57:26 <jgarzik> cfields, pong
1959 2013-12-13 20:58:00 <cfields> jgarzik: mind confirming where that boost lib is actually located?
1960 2013-12-13 20:58:15 <cfields> i'm surprised the change from yesterday didn't fix
1961 2013-12-13 20:58:17 <jgarzik> cfields, whereever Ubuntu puts it by default on 64-bit
1962 2013-12-13 20:58:26 <jgarzik> cfields, no custom boost build here
1963 2013-12-13 20:59:13 rastapopuloto has joined
1964 2013-12-13 20:59:20 <cfields> jgarzik: to confirm: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libboost_system* ?
1965 2013-12-13 21:00:01 <jgarzik>  /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libboost_system.so.1.53.0
1966 2013-12-13 21:00:05 drayah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1967 2013-12-13 21:00:08 <cfields> ah wait, that's different. it finds it at first, then forgets the path
1968 2013-12-13 21:00:12 <cfields> checking
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1973 2013-12-13 21:04:57 <jgarzik> rc  libboost-system1.49.0                     1.49.0-4                                amd64        Operating system (e.g. diagnostics support) library
1974 2013-12-13 21:04:57 <jgarzik> ii  libboost-system1.53.0:amd64               1.53.0-6+exp3ubuntu8                    amd64        Operating system (e.g. diagnostics support) library
1975 2013-12-13 21:04:57 <jgarzik> ii  libboost-system1.54-dev                   1.54.0-2ubuntu3                         amd64        Operating system (e.g. diagnostics support) library
1976 2013-12-13 21:04:57 <jgarzik> ii  libboost-system1.54.0                     1.54.0-2ubuntu3                         amd64        Operating system (e.g. diagnostics support) library
1977 2013-12-13 21:05:12 <jgarzik> cfields, ^
1978 2013-12-13 21:05:32 <jgarzik> cfields,
1979 2013-12-13 21:05:32 <jgarzik> ii  libboost1.54-all-dev                      1.54.0-2ubuntu3                         amd64        Boost C++ Libraries development files (ALL)
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1982 2013-12-13 21:07:25 <jgarzik>  jgarzik@pum:~/repo/bitcoin$ find /usr -name '*boost_system*'
1983 2013-12-13 21:07:25 <jgarzik> /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libboost_system.so.1.53.0
1984 2013-12-13 21:07:25 <jgarzik> /usr/lib/libboost_system.so.1.54.0
1985 2013-12-13 21:07:25 <jgarzik> /usr/lib/libboost_system.a
1986 2013-12-13 21:07:26 <jgarzik> /usr/lib/libboost_system.so
1987 2013-12-13 21:07:28 <jgarzik> cfields, ^
1988 2013-12-13 21:08:14 <jgarzik> cfields, perhaps it is relevant that while it is vanilla Ubuntu, it was upgraded from 13.09
1989 2013-12-13 21:08:30 <jgarzik> cfields, nevertheless, as stated, it worked fine until that commit
1990 2013-12-13 21:08:34 <cfields> jgarzik: erm, that looks kinda annoying. any of those symlinks?
1991 2013-12-13 21:08:58 <jgarzik> jgarzik@pum:~/repo/bitcoin$ ls -l `find /usr -name '*boost_system*'`
1992 2013-12-13 21:08:59 <jgarzik> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 49186 Oct 12 22:22 /usr/lib/libboost_system.a
1993 2013-12-13 21:08:59 <jgarzik> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root    25 Oct 12 22:21 /usr/lib/libboost_system.so -> libboost_system.so.1.54.0
1994 2013-12-13 21:08:59 <jgarzik> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 14536 Oct 12 22:22 /usr/lib/libboost_system.so.1.54.0
1995 2013-12-13 21:08:59 <jgarzik> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 14536 Oct 12 23:14 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libboost_system.so.1.53.0
1996 2013-12-13 21:09:27 <jgarzik> cfields, yes
1997 2013-12-13 21:09:57 <cfields> jgarzik: if system is 1.54 in the old place, and 1.53 in the new place, i'm inclined to think that your previous ones were custom built/installed ?
1998 2013-12-13 21:10:14 <jgarzik> cfields, no
1999 2013-12-13 21:10:20 <jgarzik> cfields, it is as stated :)
2000 2013-12-13 21:11:02 Starduster has quit (Quit: gotta go)
2001 2013-12-13 21:12:31 <cfields> mind dumping a bit more of the config.log (starting with the first boost check) somewhere? with that mix of libs, i'm not sure what the correct operation should be, tbh
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2004 2013-12-13 21:13:18 <cfields> jgarzik: did you have to use the --with-boost-libdir hack before yesterday?
2005 2013-12-13 21:13:33 <jgarzik> cfields, no
2006 2013-12-13 21:13:37 <jgarzik> cfields, http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/config.log.gz
2007 2013-12-13 21:13:58 <jgarzik> cfields, the configure string is in the issue
2008 2013-12-13 21:14:56 <cfields> sure, just wasn't sure if you had been using the work-around before today's failure
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2011 2013-12-13 21:15:26 <jgarzik> cfields, nope
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2015 2013-12-13 21:17:01 <cfields> jgarzik: ok, looks like it only worked before because you had the old libs in the expected place (due to the upgrade, thanks for adding that bit)
2016 2013-12-13 21:17:05 O2made has joined
2017 2013-12-13 21:17:11 <cfields> now it's finding a mix of libs, and failing to link them together
2018 2013-12-13 21:17:19 TD has joined
2019 2013-12-13 21:17:28 <cfields> will fix
2020 2013-12-13 21:17:57 damethos has joined
2021 2013-12-13 21:20:08 <SharpCoder> Hi. I'm trying to understand the mining process. Specifically what to do after you've found the correct nonce for a given block of data. I've done a lot of research, but "submitblock" doesn't seem to be documented really at all... I've read BIP-0022 and that didn't help either.
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2028 2013-12-13 21:26:28 <Luke-Jr> SharpCoder: …
2029 2013-12-13 21:26:37 <Luke-Jr> BIP 22 documents all there is to it
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2031 2013-12-13 21:28:55 <SharpCoder> Let me rephrase. After I "getwork" and find the correct nonce which makes the hash have X zeros at the start, what do I do with my findings?
2032 2013-12-13 21:32:09 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: quite well, I had a few memleaks causing node crashes over the first while, but Ive got those sorted now that I have some minimal freetime
2033 2013-12-13 21:32:32 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: which means another round of pinging poolops and getting peers, and maybe relaying tx-less blocks for txn that have already been relayed
2034 2013-12-13 21:33:03 <Luke-Jr> SharpCoder: getwork is obsolete
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2042 2013-12-13 21:51:14 <cfields> jgarzik: ok, one more. need to know where your libboost_filesystem-* live
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2047 2013-12-13 21:53:54 <jgarzik> cfields, sadly, just closed all my VMs and about to disappear off the net for a couple days (moving)
2048 2013-12-13 21:54:03 <jgarzik> cfields, if you email I'll answer on Sunday
2049 2013-12-13 21:54:18 <cfields> jgarzik: ok, here's my hunch (quickly)
2050 2013-12-13 21:54:36 rdymac has joined
2051 2013-12-13 21:55:01 <cfields> i'm thinking you had all boost libs installed before, but not all new ones got installed during the upgrade
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2053 2013-12-13 21:55:30 <cfields> so my guess is that you'll find libboost_filesystem in usr/lib, but not in usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu
2054 2013-12-13 21:55:48 <jgarzik> cfields, c.f. "libboost-dev-all" or whatnot is installed
2055 2013-12-13 21:55:52 <jgarzik> as pasted above
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2058 2013-12-13 21:56:56 <cfields> jgarzik: understood. i'm just going by how the current search is done.
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2096 2013-12-13 22:40:59 <helo> haven't noticed this before - free transaction rejected by rate limiter
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2108 2013-12-13 22:53:14 <helo> (several times per minute)
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2110 2013-12-13 22:54:15 <edcba> i don't understand how can ppl tell bitcoin is volatile looking at usd/btc rates
2111 2013-12-13 22:54:16 Sealy has joined
2112 2013-12-13 22:54:51 <edcba> why wouldn't usd be more volatile than btc ?
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2115 2013-12-13 22:55:56 <kjj> the stability of the dollar is pretty much a given at this point.  also, if it was the dollar shifting, you'd see it against other currencies and commodoties
2116 2013-12-13 22:55:59 <helo> looking only at those two data points, it's impossible to tell which is more volatile
2117 2013-12-13 22:56:30 <edcba> being stable when you are the reference point is quite obvious
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2121 2013-12-13 22:58:00 <helo> you have to pick something as the reference point. so look at each in terms of their value in terms of other things and decide which is a better reference point.
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2123 2013-12-13 23:00:24 <Darwerft> Not really as long as the USA gov. have regulated price of everything.
2124 2013-12-13 23:00:43 <kjj> but just like in physics, you have to be careful not to fool yourself into thinking that the reference point you picked is special
2125 2013-12-13 23:00:56 <Darwerft> you wouldnt notice until too late.. we have seen this historically over and over gain
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2164 2013-12-13 23:52:37 <alex_fun> hey folks, I am experimenting with 1 coin here, when I use stop to stop it softly it does it when I use start or -daemon it says cant connect to server. I though using stop ensures it closes database link safely, maybe I should of waited for like 2 to 3 min?
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2166 2013-12-13 23:53:24 * Luke-Jr votes to tempban alex_fun
2167 2013-12-13 23:53:46 <alex_fun> I tried to use -detachdb and it yet to work
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2170 2013-12-13 23:55:24 <alex_fun> Luke-Jr: lol the only person u ban is yourself with your walls of isolations
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2172 2013-12-13 23:57:11 <alex_fun> sipa if I want to move databases between maniches I simply use -detachdb  ?
2173 2013-12-13 23:57:16 <alex_fun> *machines
2174 2013-12-13 23:57:36 <sipa> -detachdb doesn't exist anymore since 0.8
2175 2013-12-13 23:57:54 <sipa> just copy the blocks/ and chainstate/ directories (while the node isn't running)
2176 2013-12-13 23:57:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: he's demanding we support scamcoins here again
2177 2013-12-13 23:58:14 <alex_fun> oki :)
2178 2013-12-13 23:58:28 <sipa> i have no problem answering questions about bitcoin - if they happen to apply to something else, so much the better for them
2179 2013-12-13 23:58:29 <alex_fun> Luke-Jr: demanding and again? does it applies to you?
2180 2013-12-13 23:59:02 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: I'm pretty sure you've been warned about off-topic stuff here before
2181 2013-12-13 23:59:34 <alex_fun> Luke Jr I tend to agree with sipa opinion
2182 2013-12-13 23:59:39 <alex_fun> :)
2183 2013-12-13 23:59:44 <sipa> calling them 'scamcoins' doesn't help, even if for several cases i would agree there with you