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  64 2013-12-17 01:21:33 <netg> What's the best NodeJS-IDE for Mac?
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  67 2013-12-17 01:23:34 <warren> netg: how is this on topic for this channel?
  68 2013-12-17 01:23:50 aceat64 has joined
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  70 2013-12-17 01:24:43 <netg> wanna work on coinpunk
  71 2013-12-17 01:24:52 <netg> offical bitcoin foundation funded project
  72 2013-12-17 01:25:03 ahmedbodi_ has quit (Client Quit)
  73 2013-12-17 01:25:15 <netg> is this channel only bitcoind and bitcoin-qt?
  74 2013-12-17 01:25:32 <BlueMatt> netg: no advertising here
  75 2013-12-17 01:25:35 ahmedbodi_ has joined
  76 2013-12-17 01:25:40 <netg> what is wrong with you
  77 2013-12-17 01:25:42 <netg> öol
  78 2013-12-17 01:25:45 <netg> forget i
  79 2013-12-17 01:25:47 <netg> t
  80 2013-12-17 01:25:52 <netg> stupid#
  81 2013-12-17 01:25:55 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: .
  82 2013-12-17 01:26:00 <Luke-Jr> he was on topic kinda
  83 2013-12-17 01:26:05 <warren> BlueMatt: dang, I was going to ask him a question.
  84 2013-12-17 01:26:35 <Luke-Jr> probably nobody had an answer for him, but at least he was doing somehting with bitcoin :/
  85 2013-12-17 01:26:36 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: since when is advertising a project asking for devs on-topic here?
  86 2013-12-17 01:26:42 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: he wasn't.
  87 2013-12-17 01:26:49 <BlueMatt> <netg> wanna work on coinpunk
  88 2013-12-17 01:26:50 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: he was looking for advice on an IDE to work on a project
  89 2013-12-17 01:28:06 FabianB has joined
  90 2013-12-17 01:28:13 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: meh, if he responds like that, he can leave anyway
  91 2013-12-17 01:28:26 <Luke-Jr> …
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 102 2013-12-17 01:34:40 <arioBarzan> anybody knows how could one contact an operator for bitcoin.it/wiki? do you know if they would possibly lower their membership cost from 0.01BTC ?
 103 2013-12-17 01:35:40 tesserajk has quit (Quit: tesserajk)
 104 2013-12-17 01:37:51 <warren> 0.01 BTC is fairly reasonable as an anti-spam measure
 105 2013-12-17 01:38:18 <lianj> yea
 106 2013-12-17 01:41:42 <Luke-Jr> warren: not anymore :/
 107 2013-12-17 01:41:47 <Luke-Jr> arioBarzan: #bitcoin-wiki
 108 2013-12-17 01:41:54 <arioBarzan> Luke-Jr: tnx
 109 2013-12-17 01:42:04 <Luke-Jr> more importantly, did MagicalTux renew the domain yet? :P
 110 2013-12-17 01:42:08 owowo has joined
 111 2013-12-17 01:42:11 <warren> Luke-Jr: yes
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 119 2013-12-17 01:45:40 <arioBarzan> it seamed to me the wiki on "Script" page shows different outputs for OP_EQUALVERIFY and OP_VERIFY. I guess both it should be Nothing/False but in the wiki for the output for OP_EQUALVERIFY is written in the table as True/False
 120 2013-12-17 01:46:39 Bourreau233 has quit (Quit: OUCH!!!)
 121 2013-12-17 01:46:47 <arioBarzan> (God, how many mistakes I made in my last sentence. Ridiculous)
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 127 2013-12-17 01:53:10 <helo> starting up an old (offline) bitcoind machine, it looks like it thinks every block is orphaned
 128 2013-12-17 01:53:37 <BlueMatt> running 0.8.6?
 129 2013-12-17 01:53:39 mappum has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 130 2013-12-17 01:53:50 <helo> this one is 0.8.5
 131 2013-12-17 01:54:05 mappum has joined
 132 2013-12-17 01:54:13 <helo> my clock isn't right, maybe that's why
 133 2013-12-17 01:55:06 mappppum has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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 135 2013-12-17 01:56:48 <warren> Luke-Jr: IMHO, 0.01 BTC is reasonable as an automated anti-spam barrier, but perhaps wiki admins can approve known people manually
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 139 2013-12-17 01:59:58 <helo> bah, wrong datadir will do that
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 145 2013-12-17 02:06:06 <arioBarzan> is $6 (at current exchange rate) necessary for anti-spam barrier? I don't think so. spamers wouldn't hesitate to spam that wiki with even lower barriers like $0.06 (0.0001BTC)
 146 2013-12-17 02:06:31 tonokip has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 147 2013-12-17 02:06:45 <andytoshi> arioBarzan: when 0.01 was set it was aronud 15c iirc :P
 148 2013-12-17 02:06:56 <andytoshi> and people still complained
 149 2013-12-17 02:06:58 <robonerd> warren imo a mB is the best qty for human validation
 150 2013-12-17 02:06:59 <Arnavion> Would hesitate*, you mean?
 151 2013-12-17 02:06:59 <arioBarzan> the $6 seams more like mandatory donation.
 152 2013-12-17 02:07:26 <robonerd> any services i'm building i standardized on mB
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 156 2013-12-17 02:09:21 <alex_fun> :)
 157 2013-12-17 02:09:39 <alex_fun> tanking :P up omg
 158 2013-12-17 02:09:41 <arioBarzan> Arnavion: I should have said (wouldn't bother to spam) or would hesitate
 159 2013-12-17 02:10:25 <Gnewt> I think 0.001 makes more sense
 160 2013-12-17 02:11:50 <robonerd> Gnewt you also like mB? why doesn't it seem too small to you i wonder?
 161 2013-12-17 02:12:14 andytoshi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 163 2013-12-17 02:13:11 <Gnewt> I mean at $1k/coin it's $1
 164 2013-12-17 02:13:23 <andytoshi> man, i've been programming too long...i was pouring water into the kettle and it took a few seconds for the level to rise to the window, so it looked like it wasn't filling
 165 2013-12-17 02:13:28 c0rw1n_ has joined
 166 2013-12-17 02:13:29 <andytoshi> and i thought, "oh shit, there's a bug in the kettle"
 167 2013-12-17 02:13:31 <Gnewt> at less, it's still less than a dollar but enough that you can't create 100 spam accounts for nothing
 168 2013-12-17 02:13:38 <Gnewt> Hah andytoshi
 169 2013-12-17 02:13:40 <Gnewt> that happens to me
 170 2013-12-17 02:13:45 <alex_fun> :D
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 172 2013-12-17 02:13:48 <Gnewt> I'm a fan of millibitcoins yeeah
 173 2013-12-17 02:13:50 <Gnewt> yeah*
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 175 2013-12-17 02:14:09 <Gnewt> It also seems to be the standard "small denomination" that exchanges/wallets are choosing
 176 2013-12-17 02:14:15 <Gnewt> blockchain.info for example has mBTC as a currency option
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 215 2013-12-17 02:51:10 <robonerd> is there an official web site for bitcoin?
 216 2013-12-17 02:51:15 <robonerd> bitcoin.org i suppose?
 217 2013-12-17 02:51:24 <ne0futur> yes
 218 2013-12-17 02:51:51 <ne0futur> see also the wiki https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/
 219 2013-12-17 02:51:51 <BlueMatt> not really
 220 2013-12-17 02:52:11 <kjj> nothing in bitcoin is official
 221 2013-12-17 02:52:12 <BlueMatt> the official website is bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf thats it
 222 2013-12-17 02:53:34 patcon has joined
 223 2013-12-17 02:54:05 <robonerd> ok...
 224 2013-12-17 02:54:25 <robonerd> http://www.coindev.org/ecosystem/
 225 2013-12-17 02:54:41 <robonerd> where shall we link to for Bitcoin?
 226 2013-12-17 02:55:20 <ne0futur> Squarespace trial accounts are not visible to the public. When you are ready to publish your website, upgrading your trial will make your site active to the world.
 227 2013-12-17 02:55:28 <ne0futur> robonerd: get a real account before advertising
 228 2013-12-17 02:55:31 micronxd has joined
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 230 2013-12-17 02:56:04 <robonerd> guest access button ne0futur
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 232 2013-12-17 02:56:15 <robonerd> not advertising. just need info to have proper data
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 234 2013-12-17 02:57:32 <ne0futur> everyie is linking bitcoin.org afaik
 235 2013-12-17 02:57:38 <ne0futur> everyone
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 238 2013-12-17 02:58:40 <saracen> robonerd: Your site is down for me.
 239 2013-12-17 02:59:57 <robonerd> yea, squarespace.com has been getting DoS'd all day
 240 2013-12-17 03:00:05 <robonerd> great first 24 hours using their stuff
 241 2013-12-17 03:00:26 <robonerd> and just so yall know, we're going to almost immediately go onto a ded server a member offers up. this was just to get stuff rolling
 242 2013-12-17 03:00:48 <robonerd> ne0futur alright bitcoin.org it is, thanks!
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 277 2013-12-17 03:21:54 <shamoon> hello all - i have "No block source available" but am connected to 4 peers. this is with QT / osx
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 285 2013-12-17 03:35:51 <robonerd> anyone know why i was banned from #bitcoin-bots ?
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 300 2013-12-17 03:47:36 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, ask midnightmagic maybe?  I know he uses autobans on occasion though... might've been an autoban
 301 2013-12-17 03:49:11 <robonerd> yea it was michagogo|cloud
 302 2013-12-17 03:49:24 <robonerd> i asked s/he last night about it and s/he didn't know
 303 2013-12-17 03:50:23 <TheLordOfTime> i just checked the banlist there, it says midnightmagic banned you, you might want to take it up with them
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 307 2013-12-17 03:55:17 <robonerd> does anyone know how people can give you a web link to the channel chat log, back to a specific line?
 308 2013-12-17 03:55:30 <robonerd> and they can search the log, and when they find the line they want to quote, get a link to that precise line
 309 2013-12-17 03:55:57 <robonerd> does anyone know how people can give you a web link to the channel chat log, back to a specific line? and they can search the log, and when they find the line they want to quote, get a link to that precise line
 310 2013-12-17 03:56:06 <robonerd> oh no, i'm sorry!
 311 2013-12-17 03:59:47 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, heheh
 312 2013-12-17 04:00:07 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, i don't think every channel is logged...
 313 2013-12-17 04:00:19 <TheLordOfTime> some are, some aren't...
 314 2013-12-17 04:00:36 <TheLordOfTime> (some of them are privately logged by Luna though, for my benefit)
 315 2013-12-17 04:00:53 <robonerd> lol
 316 2013-12-17 04:00:58 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, mind if I ask you which channel you specifically are seeking logs for?
 317 2013-12-17 04:01:01 chilero_ has joined
 318 2013-12-17 04:01:04 <robonerd> #coindev
 319 2013-12-17 04:01:07 <Apocalyptic> which is somehow against Freenode's policy :)
 320 2013-12-17 04:01:17 <robonerd> for the community of bitcoin software & service devs
 321 2013-12-17 04:01:19 <TheLordOfTime> Apocalyptic, public logging is :P
 322 2013-12-17 04:01:45 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, what I'd do is ask their ops if they log the channel publicly somewhere
 323 2013-12-17 04:01:55 <robonerd> well yea that's us
 324 2013-12-17 04:01:57 <robonerd> hehe
 325 2013-12-17 04:02:00 <Apocalyptic> it's often in the topic if it is
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 329 2013-12-17 04:02:18 <TheLordOfTime> Apocalyptic, well... public logging without permission from ops and a notice in the channel either via entrymsg, a message from a bot in the channel, or in the topic
 330 2013-12-17 04:03:32 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, If you want I can direct Luna to that channel, tell her to log it, but her logs aren't pretty like the -dev and -otc logs... they're raw, nitty-gritty...
 331 2013-12-17 04:03:55 <robonerd> thanks but i'll just look until i find
 332 2013-12-17 04:03:57 <TheLordOfTime> perfect for pisg, and my scrollback merging scripts to merge with my ZNC scrollback...
 333 2013-12-17 04:03:58 <robonerd> or maybe set it up myself
 334 2013-12-17 04:04:02 <robonerd> i can code it pretty easy
 335 2013-12-17 04:04:03 <TheLordOfTime> but they ain't super pretty
 336 2013-12-17 04:04:05 chilero has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 337 2013-12-17 04:04:09 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, or just launch a bot that does it for you
 338 2013-12-17 04:04:13 <robonerd> yep
 339 2013-12-17 04:04:22 <TheLordOfTime> i.e. luna, or whatever is used for logging here, or smth
 340 2013-12-17 04:04:28 Subo1977 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 341 2013-12-17 04:04:30 <TheLordOfTime> takes 2 minutes to open up log files on Luna though
 342 2013-12-17 04:04:31 <ne0futur> robonerd: for your own channel you ll need a bot who keeps log, then a tool to convert logs to html, and host the logs yourself
 343 2013-12-17 04:04:34 <TheLordOfTime> thank god for nginx :P
 344 2013-12-17 04:04:44 <Apocalyptic> nginx ftw
 345 2013-12-17 04:04:45 <TheLordOfTime> ne0futur, or serve the logs as text, same thing works :)
 346 2013-12-17 04:04:46 <robonerd> ne0futur oh shoot, good call on the html
 347 2013-12-17 04:04:50 <robonerd> forgot about that
 348 2013-12-17 04:04:50 <TheLordOfTime> Apocalyptic, NGINX IS THE ULTIMATE.
 349 2013-12-17 04:04:52 <Apocalyptic> ++
 350 2013-12-17 04:04:56 <TheLordOfTime> yes, ++ on the HTML
 351 2013-12-17 04:05:02 <robonerd> ok
 352 2013-12-17 04:05:05 <robonerd> then i begin to build this
 353 2013-12-17 04:05:07 <robonerd> IT BEGINS
 354 2013-12-17 04:05:07 <TheLordOfTime> unless you do what I do, and want to search for rawmodes, which is really why I have Luna logging :)
 355 2013-12-17 04:05:10 <ne0futur> TheLordOfTime: html will be easiter for the "give you a web link to the channel chat log, back to a specific line" part
 356 2013-12-17 04:05:15 <TheLordOfTime> IT BEGINS, AS THE PROPHECIES HAVE FORETOLD
 357 2013-12-17 04:05:18 duckybsd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 358 2013-12-17 04:05:21 <robonerd> why do you like rawlogs?
 359 2013-12-17 04:05:23 <robonerd> rawmodes
 360 2013-12-17 04:05:26 <TheLordOfTime> ne0futur, yes, note this line: [2013/12/16 23:01:10] <TheLordOfTime> yes, ++ on the HTML
 361 2013-12-17 04:05:37 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, because unfortunately I love working with rawmodes and seeing the rawmodes in my logs :)
 362 2013-12-17 04:05:49 <TheLordOfTime> that way i can also find quiets and bans...
 363 2013-12-17 04:05:56 <robonerd> can you show me what a few look like TheLordOfTime ?
 364 2013-12-17 04:06:05 <TheLordOfTime> without having to search for "* Someone was banned from #channel"
 365 2013-12-17 04:06:09 <TheLordOfTime> ... um ...
 366 2013-12-17 04:06:10 <robonerd> mmm
 367 2013-12-17 04:06:14 <robonerd> now that is a GREAT idea
 368 2013-12-17 04:06:16 <ne0futur> i also prefer pure text and grep, on local logs ;)
 369 2013-12-17 04:06:16 <TheLordOfTime> sure, lemme find somewhere where there's been recent bans
 370 2013-12-17 04:06:25 <robonerd> just log raw traffic for a channel entirely, then p ull out w/e you want and how, yes ?
 371 2013-12-17 04:06:26 <TheLordOfTime> ne0futur, exactly what i need for ZNC scrollback merging :)
 372 2013-12-17 04:06:33 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, well, not exactly raw-log
 373 2013-12-17 04:06:36 yubrew has joined
 374 2013-12-17 04:06:37 <pierce> why is it that wallet dumping tools tend to dump private keys in a 279 byte format when private keys should only be 32 bytes?
 375 2013-12-17 04:06:38 <robonerd> please explain
 376 2013-12-17 04:06:43 Subo1977 has joined
 377 2013-12-17 04:06:43 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, lemme grab an excerpt of Luna's logs for #bitcoin-otc
 378 2013-12-17 04:06:48 <TheLordOfTime> which is a publicly-logged channel anyways
 379 2013-12-17 04:06:54 <Apocalyptic> robonerd, like 2013/12/17 04:23:26 116612 : Receiving : :TheLordOfTime!LordOfTime@ubuntu/member/teward MODE #bitcoin-otc -b+q *!*@unaffiliated/arij *!*@unaffiliated/arij
 380 2013-12-17 04:07:05 <robonerd> TheLordOfTime is secretly Edward Snowden, i hope everyone knows
 381 2013-12-17 04:07:13 <TheLordOfTime> Apocalyptic, a little bit kinder with ChannelLogger in supybots, but still
 382 2013-12-17 04:07:26 <robonerd> url to supy bot?
 383 2013-12-17 04:07:27 <Apocalyptic> heh, yeah that's my personal raw format :)
 384 2013-12-17 04:08:05 <robonerd> what does it look like raw to receive this message into the channel?
 385 2013-12-17 04:08:16 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, http://0bin.trekweb.org/paste/f090gpkI#oyPAr7wVWXxuOP3SHaxaUH5MtvPZYMqWDmJFRCqnp28=
 386 2013-12-17 04:08:23 <TheLordOfTime> (on my own encrypted pastebin instance on trekweb.org)
 387 2013-12-17 04:08:28 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, that's an excerpt of logs from Luna
 388 2013-12-17 04:08:34 <TheLordOfTime> I have her using UTC+-0 for timestamping
 389 2013-12-17 04:09:11 <Apocalyptic> oh that's not raw at all
 390 2013-12-17 04:09:18 <TheLordOfTime> Apocalyptic, no, it's not RAW
 391 2013-12-17 04:09:25 <TheLordOfTime> but I consider that to be more "raw" than HTML
 392 2013-12-17 04:09:32 <Apocalyptic> sure
 393 2013-12-17 04:09:37 <TheLordOfTime> Apocalyptic, it does, however, show modes with the raw mode codes
 394 2013-12-17 04:09:38 <TheLordOfTime> and lines
 395 2013-12-17 04:09:47 <TheLordOfTime> case in point: 2013-12-17T03:19:39  *** TheLordOfTime sets mode: -b+q *!*@unaffiliated/arij *!*@unaffiliated/arij
 396 2013-12-17 04:09:50 <robonerd> TheLordOfTime so you don't store the channel name in it?
 397 2013-12-17 04:09:57 <robonerd> in each message
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 399 2013-12-17 04:10:12 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, no, not in each message... here's why, the path on the server for it is done by channel and network
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 401 2013-12-17 04:10:24 <robonerd> ok
 402 2013-12-17 04:10:30 <TheLordOfTime> since Luna is on two IRC networks, there's two root folders inside the ChannelLogger folder, one for freenode, one for othernet
 403 2013-12-17 04:10:37 <TheLordOfTime> inside the freenode folder, there's a folder for each channel
 404 2013-12-17 04:10:45 <TheLordOfTime> #bitcoin, #bitcoin-dev, #bitcoin-otc, etc.
 405 2013-12-17 04:10:51 <robonerd> smart
 406 2013-12-17 04:10:55 <TheLordOfTime> inside those folders, are files, each datestamped
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 409 2013-12-17 04:11:03 <robonerd> url to supy bot?
 410 2013-12-17 04:11:46 <TheLordOfTime> so that excerpt in that pastebin is in a file titled #bitcoin-otc.2013-12-17.log which is inside the folder named #bitcoin-otc which is in the folder identified as freenode.
 411 2013-12-17 04:11:48 <TheLordOfTime> um...
 412 2013-12-17 04:11:57 <TheLordOfTime> I use Limnoria, which is a fork of supybot...
 413 2013-12-17 04:12:04 <TheLordOfTime> with some other nifteh patches and such in it
 414 2013-12-17 04:12:08 <Apocalyptic> is that just me or does this feel like off-topic ? :p
 415 2013-12-17 04:12:09 <TheLordOfTime> but it works the same way
 416 2013-12-17 04:12:17 <TheLordOfTime> Apocalyptic, it is, we should move this to #bitcoin-offtopic
 417 2013-12-17 04:12:25 <TheLordOfTime> or ##IAMOFFTOPICALLTHETIME
 418 2013-12-17 04:12:25 <TheLordOfTime> :P
 419 2013-12-17 04:12:40 <Apocalyptic> TheLordOfOffTopic
 420 2013-12-17 04:12:43 <TheLordOfTime> hehehe
 421 2013-12-17 04:12:48 <TheLordOfTime> i should /ns group that later.
 422 2013-12-17 04:12:51 <TheLordOfTime> but the nick is too long
 423 2013-12-17 04:12:54 <TheLordOfTime> LordOfOfftopic might fit
 424 2013-12-17 04:12:59 <Apocalyptic> true
 425 2013-12-17 04:14:50 <TheLordOfTime> ultimately, though, robonerd, if you want it pretty, set it up yourself, but if you want logs like the excerpt I gave you from Luna's logs, that takes a few minutes to set up (plus a day for DNS updates) if you want Luna to do it in the interim until you set up your own bot, or you can just launch a supybot yourself and load ChannelLogger later.
 426 2013-12-17 04:14:59 <TheLordOfTime> I can help, too, but I'm usually in #bitcoin-otc, and lurk here :)
 427 2013-12-17 04:15:56 <TheLordOfTime> and we all know -otc is the center of offtopicness even though it's the trading channel :)
 428 2013-12-17 04:16:00 <robonerd> yea i'll set it up
 429 2013-12-17 04:16:04 <robonerd> we'll need a chan bot anyway
 430 2013-12-17 04:16:11 <robonerd> were already talking about it, so that's task 1 now
 431 2013-12-17 04:16:18 <robonerd> btw, where is the bitcoin api url?
 432 2013-12-17 04:16:28 <TheLordOfTime> robonerd, cool
 433 2013-12-17 04:16:30 chilero has joined
 434 2013-12-17 04:16:39 <Apocalyptic> "bitcoin api" // can you be more vague ?
 435 2013-12-17 04:17:53 <TheLordOfTime> Apocalyptic, he can say "api url"
 436 2013-12-17 04:17:56 <TheLordOfTime> then that's even more vague
 437 2013-12-17 04:18:00 <TheLordOfTime> or just "URL"
 438 2013-12-17 04:18:00 capa66 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 439 2013-12-17 04:18:01 <TheLordOfTime> :)
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 443 2013-12-17 04:20:04 <robonerd> is there a url to docs covering the bitcion api? sorry
 444 2013-12-17 04:20:13 <ne0futur> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_%28JSON-RPC%29
 445 2013-12-17 04:20:43 <ne0futur> google is your friend too ;)
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 457 2013-12-17 04:30:24 <shamoon> hello all - i have "No block source available" but am connected to 4 peers. this is with QT / osx
 458 2013-12-17 04:31:50 <kjj> getpeerinfo
 459 2013-12-17 04:32:24 <TheLordOfTime> shamoon, ^
 460 2013-12-17 04:32:33 nexes has joined
 461 2013-12-17 04:32:54 <kjj> and then, depending on what getpeerinfo says, you probably need to get better peers
 462 2013-12-17 04:32:59 <shamoon> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/04081ca1bb1a655212f1
 463 2013-12-17 04:33:01 <shamoon> kjj: ^
 464 2013-12-17 04:33:06 <TheLordOfTime> ewwanongist
 465 2013-12-17 04:33:28 <kjj> yup.  none of your peers are on the network
 466 2013-12-17 04:33:41 <shamoon> hmmm - so what to do?
 467 2013-12-17 04:33:46 <shamoon> i tried addnode
 468 2013-12-17 04:33:53 <kjj> startingheight is the number of blocks your peer thinks it has when you connect
 469 2013-12-17 04:34:10 <shamoon> i'm at a hotel - i wonder if that could be it
 470 2013-12-17 04:34:13 <shamoon> i tried via TOR
 471 2013-12-17 04:34:15 <TheLordOfTime> shamoon, that's probably it
 472 2013-12-17 04:34:17 <shamoon> i can connect to Tor
 473 2013-12-17 04:34:25 <TheLordOfTime> shamoon, hotels tend to be restrictive of what they allow to receive connections
 474 2013-12-17 04:34:30 <TheLordOfTime> (also using tor with bitcoind, bad idea)
 475 2013-12-17 04:34:40 <shamoon> why's it a bad idea?
 476 2013-12-17 04:34:48 <shamoon> any way for me to get around this firewalling?
 477 2013-12-17 04:34:50 <TheLordOfTime> (because tor)
 478 2013-12-17 04:34:59 <TheLordOfTime> shamoon, with or without breaking the terms of use for your hotel?
 479 2013-12-17 04:35:19 <shamoon> either
 480 2013-12-17 04:35:21 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
 481 2013-12-17 04:35:22 <shamoon> in dubai
 482 2013-12-17 04:35:30 <TheLordOfTime> without breaking the ToS, you probably can't.
 483 2013-12-17 04:35:33 [7] has joined
 484 2013-12-17 04:35:33 <TheLordOfTime> with breaking the ToS, well...
 485 2013-12-17 04:35:40 <TheLordOfTime> i don't help people break firewalls that're in place.
 486 2013-12-17 04:35:47 * TheLordOfTime has ethics :p
 487 2013-12-17 04:35:49 <shamoon> Tor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 488 2013-12-17 04:35:56 <shamoon> why is that a bad idea?
 489 2013-12-17 04:36:10 <TheLordOfTime> *cough* if you use tor you're hiding something *cough&
 490 2013-12-17 04:36:12 Zunonia has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 491 2013-12-17 04:36:17 * TheLordOfTime is suspicious of tor
 492 2013-12-17 04:36:23 <shamoon> okay eric shmidt
 493 2013-12-17 04:36:23 <TheLordOfTime> but that's a discussion for another time
 494 2013-12-17 04:36:27 <shamoon> schmidt
 495 2013-12-17 04:36:44 <kjj> how badly out of date is your node?
 496 2013-12-17 04:37:09 <Apocalyptic> < 0.3.5
 497 2013-12-17 04:37:16 <shamoon> not too bad - it was fine a few days ago
 498 2013-12-17 04:37:19 <TheLordOfTime> shamoon, what version is your bitcoind client
 499 2013-12-17 04:37:23 <shamoon> 0.8.6
 500 2013-12-17 04:37:27 <TheLordOfTime> s/bitcoind/bitcoin/
 501 2013-12-17 04:37:53 <kjj> you can probably do most of what you need to do without an actual connection
 502 2013-12-17 04:38:15 <shamoon> trying to send a tx
 503 2013-12-17 04:38:34 <kjj> https://blockchain.info/pushtx
 504 2013-12-17 04:38:47 <shamoon> interesting
 505 2013-12-17 04:38:54 <shamoon> so getrawtransaction
 506 2013-12-17 04:38:56 <shamoon> on it?
 507 2013-12-17 04:38:58 <kjj> yup
 508 2013-12-17 04:39:29 <shamoon> you rock my world
 509 2013-12-17 04:39:32 <shamoon> kjj:
 510 2013-12-17 04:39:48 <kjj> heh.  it was easier than setting one of my nodes to accept connections on port 80
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 515 2013-12-17 04:45:05 <ne0futur> shamoon: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/11191/client-that-can-run-behind-a-firewall
 516 2013-12-17 04:45:13 <shamoon> thanks ne0futur
 517 2013-12-17 04:45:38 Zunonia has joined
 518 2013-12-17 04:46:18 <kjj> ssh port tunnelling might be useful, assuming that the firwall allows ssh
 519 2013-12-17 04:46:49 <ne0futur> or having you server listening for ssh on port 80 ;)
 520 2013-12-17 04:47:23 <ne0futur> most firewalls wont analyze the protocol
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 567 2013-12-17 05:30:23 <hifive11> how can I send bitcoins from one wallet to another?
 568 2013-12-17 05:30:37 <hifive11> with api
 569 2013-12-17 05:30:48 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 570 2013-12-17 05:31:22 <hifive11> how can I use bitcoin api?
 571 2013-12-17 05:31:36 <kjj> sendtoaddress
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 573 2013-12-17 05:33:05 <hifive11> how can I use bitcoin api?
 574 2013-12-17 05:33:18 <hifive11> from terminal linux or command promtp windows? please give me example or the basics - thanks
 575 2013-12-17 05:33:23 <robonerd> hifive11 what're you trying to do?
 576 2013-12-17 05:33:29 <robonerd> mine or?
 577 2013-12-17 05:33:37 <hifive11> I want to know how to use bitcoin api
 578 2013-12-17 05:33:44 <kjj> try this:  bitcoind help
 579 2013-12-17 05:33:50 <hifive11> ah
 580 2013-12-17 05:33:53 <hifive11> i dont have anything
 581 2013-12-17 05:33:57 <hifive11> installed
 582 2013-12-17 05:34:03 <hifive11> just I am curious
 583 2013-12-17 05:34:07 <hifive11> where I execute commands and how
 584 2013-12-17 05:34:18 <kjj> oy
 585 2013-12-17 05:34:47 dkog has quit (Quit: dkog)
 586 2013-12-17 05:34:53 <hifive11> please tell me one example how would you use api to send bitcoins
 587 2013-12-17 05:34:57 <hifive11> or do anything
 588 2013-12-17 05:35:11 <andytoshi> hifive11: #bitcoin please
 589 2013-12-17 05:35:34 <kjj> bitcoind sendtoaddress 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf 1.0
 590 2013-12-17 05:36:40 <hifive11> kjj but where yut type that?
 591 2013-12-17 05:36:48 <hifive11> in command promt windows or terminal linux?
 592 2013-12-17 05:37:09 <hifive11> how can I use bitcoin api from some programming language
 593 2013-12-17 05:37:10 <kjj> terminal.  you can do the same thing in the debug window by skipping the bitcoind
 594 2013-12-17 05:37:13 kinglet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 595 2013-12-17 05:37:19 <hifive11> which languages it supports?
 596 2013-12-17 05:37:19 <kjj> also, this is way off topic for this channel
 597 2013-12-17 05:37:34 <hifive11> how can I use bitcoin api from some programming language
 598 2013-12-17 05:37:37 <hifive11> this is offtopic?
 599 2013-12-17 05:37:42 <kjj> the API does JSON
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 601 2013-12-17 05:37:52 <kjj> this isn't the newbie channel.  no offense
 602 2013-12-17 05:38:06 <hifive11> ok
 603 2013-12-17 05:38:15 <hifive11> ok I get json but
 604 2013-12-17 05:38:21 kinglet has joined
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 606 2013-12-17 05:38:33 <hifive11> wait
 607 2013-12-17 05:38:33 <hifive11> lets say from c
 608 2013-12-17 05:38:35 <hifive11> how can I send money from one walet to another and I am off this channel :)
 609 2013-12-17 05:38:37 <hifive11> really
 610 2013-12-17 05:38:41 <hifive11> please and thanks!
 611 2013-12-17 05:38:46 <hifive11> so I get the idea
 612 2013-12-17 05:38:53 <hifive11> because I am totaly lost now
 613 2013-12-17 05:39:27 <kjj> first, you get libraries that understand HTTP and JSON, then you use them to create and send the command to your bitcoind node
 614 2013-12-17 05:39:56 <Apocalyptic> system(command) for exemple
 615 2013-12-17 05:40:05 <hifive11> what is bitcoind node
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 619 2013-12-17 05:40:52 <justanotheruser> hifive11: the program that connects to other bitcoin users and manages your wallet
 620 2013-12-17 05:40:53 Neozonz has joined
 621 2013-12-17 05:41:00 <kjj> the bitcoind software running on your computer is a node on the network.  it is what processes your API commands
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 624 2013-12-17 05:41:42 <hifive11> how I connect bitcoind to c?
 625 2013-12-17 05:42:12 <hifive11> so it is a server that listens on some port I guess
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 627 2013-12-17 05:42:21 <hifive11> what should I send to it and on which port it listens?
 628 2013-12-17 05:42:27 <hifive11> I need to send json?
 629 2013-12-17 05:42:36 <kjj> you specify the port in the config file
 630 2013-12-17 05:42:38 <hifive11> I dont understand
 631 2013-12-17 05:42:40 <kjj> and yes, you send JSON to it
 632 2013-12-17 05:42:53 <hifive11> ok but what I dont understand is this, bitcoind sendto
 633 2013-12-17 05:43:06 <hifive11> if it is a server how I execute it to execute command?
 634 2013-12-17 05:43:21 <kjj> the bitcoind software also includes an API client so that it can make requests to the running node
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 636 2013-12-17 05:43:42 <robonerd> kjj like an admin console?
 637 2013-12-17 05:44:05 <kjj> so when you type "bitcoind sendtoaddress blah blah", it creates the JSON string and sends it to the API server
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 639 2013-12-17 05:44:35 <kjj> just to be clear, "the API server" is your bitcoin node again
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 641 2013-12-17 05:44:57 <robonerd> kjj, so the api client is a text interface?
 642 2013-12-17 05:45:32 <kjj> robonerd: I'm having a hard time understanding your questions
 643 2013-12-17 05:45:36 <hifive111> please can yo usend me some link of some good article/book/tutorial/video to learn those things
 644 2013-12-17 05:45:53 <hifive111> I got disconnected please repeat last words thanks
 645 2013-12-17 05:46:35 <hifive111> kjj I know but I don't know how I do "bitcoind sendto" if it is a server how I execute commands with it? It wil lstay online after it xecutes command?
 646 2013-12-17 05:46:35 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 647 2013-12-17 05:46:37 <kjj> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bitcoin%20api
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 651 2013-12-17 05:47:22 <hifive111> so this is fairly easy for developer to understand
 652 2013-12-17 05:47:26 <kjj> no, you run two copies.  one copy is the server and it stays running.  the other just runs long enough to send the command and process the reply
 653 2013-12-17 05:47:41 <hifive111> what you think how much time it wil ltake me to learn to use bitcoin api? I am professional web dev
 654 2013-12-17 05:48:02 <hifive111> kjj how I run the server? with which command
 655 2013-12-17 05:48:48 <kjj> no, I'm done.  there are tons of places to find the info you need.  this channel is not one of them
 656 2013-12-17 05:49:50 <hifive111> ah you didn't told me about json rpc protocol
 657 2013-12-17 05:50:10 <hifive111> for what is this channel
 658 2013-12-17 05:50:18 <hifive111> and is there c supprot for json rpc?
 659 2013-12-17 05:50:37 <Luke-Jr> C doesn't support anything <.<
 660 2013-12-17 05:50:44 <hifive111> ok
 661 2013-12-17 05:50:47 <hifive111> it has
 662 2013-12-17 05:50:48 <hifive111> :)
 663 2013-12-17 05:50:51 <Luke-Jr> even TCP needs the BSD socket library ;)
 664 2013-12-17 05:51:24 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, for JSON-RPC you'll need something like libcurl+libjansson
 665 2013-12-17 05:51:25 <hifive111> what you think how much time it wil ltake me to learn to use bitcoin api? I am professional web dev
 666 2013-12-17 05:51:45 <hifive111> I think I will use it with php
 667 2013-12-17 05:51:51 <hifive111> because I know php very well
 668 2013-12-17 05:52:00 chilero_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 669 2013-12-17 05:52:04 <hifive111> I can use whole bitcoin api with php right?
 670 2013-12-17 05:52:17 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind should probably never be put on a webserver
 671 2013-12-17 05:52:33 <Luke-Jr> so, that's not so great an idea..
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 675 2013-12-17 05:53:12 <hifive111> but I can use whole bitcoin api with php?
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 679 2013-12-17 05:54:09 <hifive111> Luke-Jr why it should nnot be put on webserver?
 680 2013-12-17 05:54:16 <Luke-Jr> hifive111: you *will* get hacked
 681 2013-12-17 05:54:24 <Luke-Jr> and all your money stolen
 682 2013-12-17 05:54:33 <hifive111> how?
 683 2013-12-17 05:54:44 * Luke-Jr facepalms
 684 2013-12-17 05:54:52 <hifive111> I will protect it
 685 2013-12-17 05:54:55 <hifive111> omg
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 687 2013-12-17 05:55:08 <hifive111> I will give permission only my web server user to execute it
 688 2013-12-17 05:55:10 <helo> you can use it for a local view of what is going on the bitcoin network, but you don't want your private keys anywhere on a publicly accessible server
 689 2013-12-17 05:55:10 <hifive111> ..
 690 2013-12-17 05:55:26 <hifive111> how can they hack me
 691 2013-12-17 05:55:27 <hifive111> ..
 692 2013-12-17 05:55:33 <hifive111> if I protect myself well omg
 693 2013-12-17 05:55:36 <andytoshi> hifive111: i don't think you're being serious, but on the wiki somewhere there is example code using PHP, perl, etc.
 694 2013-12-17 05:55:47 <hifive111> haha
 695 2013-12-17 05:55:52 <hifive111> I dontbelieve you people
 696 2013-12-17 05:55:55 <hifive111> how can they hack me omg...
 697 2013-12-17 05:56:01 <Luke-Jr> lead security experts have been hacked before.
 698 2013-12-17 05:56:02 <Apocalyptic> <andytoshi> hifive111: i don't think you're being serious << this
 699 2013-12-17 05:56:03 <hifive111> so there are hackers who can hack anything? :D
 700 2013-12-17 05:56:03 <andytoshi> pretty sure it is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_%28JSON-RPC%29
 701 2013-12-17 05:56:05 <hifive111> hahaha
 702 2013-12-17 05:56:09 <hifive111> omg
 703 2013-12-17 05:56:10 <Luke-Jr> hifive111: yes,.
 704 2013-12-17 05:56:14 <hifive111> yeye ok
 705 2013-12-17 05:56:22 <Apocalyptic> is -dev being trolled ?
 706 2013-12-17 05:56:23 <hifive111> I understand you suggest to take measures
 707 2013-12-17 05:56:27 <hifive111> ok im out
 708 2013-12-17 05:56:31 <hifive111> for what is this channel aain?
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 710 2013-12-17 05:57:01 <andytoshi> i got some good laughs out of that one..
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 713 2013-12-17 05:58:35 <Luke-Jr> [05:51:43] <hifive111> if I protect myself well omg
 714 2013-12-17 05:58:42 * Luke-Jr facepalms a few more times
 715 2013-12-17 05:58:47 <Apocalyptic> don't forget the tinfoil
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 719 2013-12-17 06:00:12 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin is doomed if "professionals" really think this way
 720 2013-12-17 06:01:17 <kjj> he was just a troll
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 722 2013-12-17 06:01:42 <Luke-Jr> I sure hope so.
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 774 2013-12-17 06:48:29 <Alina-malina> how to run multiple wallet.dat files?
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 781 2013-12-17 06:54:38 <wumpus> Alina-malina: I'm not entirely sure when it was introduced, but in master you can start bitcoin with the -wallet=name.dat option to use another wallet in the data directory
 782 2013-12-17 06:56:05 <wumpus> before that, the only way to switch wallets was to switch the actual file
 783 2013-12-17 06:56:26 <wumpus> (or use another data directory and symlink the block directories)
 784 2013-12-17 06:56:35 <Alina-malina> if i extract the private key it is for entire wallet.dat file right? not the each BTC address?
 785 2013-12-17 06:57:02 <Alina-malina> so if someone have my priv key he can access all my addresses?
 786 2013-12-17 06:57:07 <Alina-malina> or generate new addresses?
 787 2013-12-17 06:57:21 <wumpus> a BTC address is a key identifier, it identifies one key
 788 2013-12-17 06:58:03 <wumpus> if someone has a priv key from you they can spend coins that are sent to the corresponding address
 789 2013-12-17 06:58:17 <wumpus> so, make sure you never give exported private keys to anyone else
 790 2013-12-17 06:58:44 <Alina-malina> you mean if someone have my priv key they can access entire wallet?
 791 2013-12-17 06:59:03 <wumpus> no
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 793 2013-12-17 06:59:27 <wumpus> the wallet consists of 100+ keys
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 795 2013-12-17 07:00:06 <wumpus> each new address that you create, or change address that gets created, adds a new key
 796 2013-12-17 07:00:32 <Alina-malina> so each address have private key right?
 797 2013-12-17 07:00:46 <wumpus> there are so-called "deterministic wallets" that generate all keys from a seed, I think you are confused with them
 798 2013-12-17 07:01:10 <wumpus> in that case if you have the seed you also have all keys
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 801 2013-12-17 07:02:17 <wumpus> yes
 802 2013-12-17 07:02:25 <Alina-malina> looool
 803 2013-12-17 07:02:29 <wumpus> switching to deterministic generation is planned for bitcoin-qt, but no idea when it wil happen, it would be much superior to the current keypool scheme which is dangerous with regards to backups
 804 2013-12-17 07:02:31 <Alina-malina> I still not get it:)
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 806 2013-12-17 07:02:52 <Alina-malina> ok let me bring you example
 807 2013-12-17 07:02:57 <Alina-malina> remember casacious coins right?
 808 2013-12-17 07:03:13 <wumpus> no problem if you don't get it... just the leave the wallet abstraction as-is, don't bother with individual keys
 809 2013-12-17 07:03:15 <Alina-malina> he extracts the priv key, put on coin and sel right?
 810 2013-12-17 07:03:40 <wumpus> it can only end in pain if you don't know exactly what you're doing, and even then people make regular mistakes
 811 2013-12-17 07:03:46 <Alina-malina> what priv key exactly was it from wallet.dat file? or address priv key?
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 813 2013-12-17 07:05:10 <wumpus> he doesn't 'extract' a priv key, he uses his own tool to generate public/private key pairs
 814 2013-12-17 07:05:25 <wumpus> completely seperate from any wallet
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 816 2013-12-17 07:06:35 <Alina-malina> hmmm interesting
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 820 2013-12-17 07:07:53 <Alina-malina> ok, i will ask my question differently as soon as iget that pub/priv key pair and import into my wallet, i will get a new wallet.dat?
 821 2013-12-17 07:07:56 <wumpus> private keys are easy to generate if you have a secure random number generator, just generate a number between 1..2^256-1 (approx) and it's your private key. With ECDSA math you can then compute the associated public key, and generate an address from that.
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 824 2013-12-17 07:09:19 <wumpus> Alina-malina: yes, the wallet changes when a key is added
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 826 2013-12-17 07:09:53 <wumpus> after all it needs to be stored in there
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 832 2013-12-17 07:12:11 <Alina-malina> so basically it just generate an address with priv/pub key and embed into wallet.dat file right?
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 835 2013-12-17 07:13:51 <wumpus> yes, "generate an address" is really shorthand for "generate a private key, and compute an public key from that, and compute an address from that, store it in the wallet and show it to the user"
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 837 2013-12-17 07:15:16 <wumpus> in case of bitcoin-qt the client always keeps a stash of 100 (default) pre-generated keys, called the keypool, but this is different per wallet software
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 839 2013-12-17 07:15:36 <Alina-malina> i see, but in bitcoin-qt when i open it shows only 1 wallet and addresses, it doesnt specify how much bitcoins are stored on each address
 840 2013-12-17 07:16:24 <wumpus> because the abstraction used in the GUI is "wallet" not "keys". We don't expose details such as keys to the user.
 841 2013-12-17 07:16:46 <wumpus> you can dive deeper with RPC calls
 842 2013-12-17 07:17:22 <Alina-malina> wiht qt console?
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 844 2013-12-17 07:18:29 <wumpus> yes... but really, you want to mess around with invidivual keys, bitcoin-qt is not the right software for you. It manages the keys, and anything you do manually will interfere with that.
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 846 2013-12-17 07:18:59 <Alina-malina> what software would you recommend?
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 853 2013-12-17 07:25:24 <Alina-malina> wumpus, please
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 856 2013-12-17 07:27:19 <wumpus> not really sure, most people working at that level write their own scripts to do things, for example Mike Caldwell has some java project that he uses to generate the keys for his coins
 857 2013-12-17 07:27:48 <wumpus> https://github.com/casascius/Bitcoin-Address-Utility
 858 2013-12-17 07:29:02 <Alina-malina> i mean working with bitcoins, i am not sure i understand how bitcoin works compleately need to digg in it, so i want to understand every piece of how it works
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 860 2013-12-17 07:30:21 <wumpus> (there is also a javascript implementation, bitaddress https://github.com/pointbiz/bitaddress.org , and several python scripts floating around)
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 865 2013-12-17 07:35:41 <wumpus> in that case you can use the RPC call "listunspent" to see what spendable outputs you have on what address
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 868 2013-12-17 07:40:51 <wumpus> just type it in the debug console
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 896 2013-12-17 08:00:56 <Plarkplark_> Howmuch "bit" is ECDSA comparable too?
 897 2013-12-17 08:01:43 <Plarkplark_> (in like: howmany addresses do exist? Or is ECDSA only the seed for the 2²56 number that makes up the privkey?
 898 2013-12-17 08:03:08 <wumpus> 2^160 addresses exist
 899 2013-12-17 08:03:58 <arioBarzan> wumpus: wrong
 900 2013-12-17 08:04:05 <arioBarzan> Range of valid private keys https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Private_key
 901 2013-12-17 08:04:07 <wumpus> arioBarzan: oh?
 902 2013-12-17 08:04:09 <wumpus> and approximately 2^256 ECDSA private/public keys, but the 'key identifier' that is called an address is 160 bits
 903 2013-12-17 08:04:33 <wumpus> this means that there are multiple private keys that map to each address
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 911 2013-12-17 08:08:58 <arioBarzan> Since any 256-bit number between 0x1 and 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141 is a valid private key, I assumed there would be less than 2^256 addresses. However one could argue that P2SH should also be added to that figure.
 912 2013-12-17 08:09:19 <wumpus> P2SH addresses are also 160 bit
 913 2013-12-17 08:10:02 <wumpus> so with those included, it would be 161 bit
 914 2013-12-17 08:12:37 <arioBarzan> bytheway not all receiving points are in format OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <Hash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG and people still could use format <sig> <pubKey> OP_CHECKSIG
 915 2013-12-17 08:13:10 <wumpus> yes, for example all coinbases use that
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 920 2013-12-17 08:20:02 <wumpus> you could define a 'raw public key' address type that creates such a script, and then count that as an address, and sure you'd have 2^256+ addresses, but at least bitcoin-qt only supports hashed public keys or hashed scripts for addresses
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 931 2013-12-17 08:31:46 <Plarkplark_> You know how very very big 2²56 is right.
 932 2013-12-17 08:31:53 <Plarkplark_> 2^256
 933 2013-12-17 08:32:09 <Plarkplark_> But is 161 bit enough?
 934 2013-12-17 08:32:16 <wumpus> enough for what?
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 945 2013-12-17 08:38:57 <arioBarzan> for two ECDSA keys that their public keys have same RIPEMD-160 hash value, it would be possible to spend the coins sent to "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG" with either of those keys, right?
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 947 2013-12-17 08:39:29 <wumpus> yep
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 953 2013-12-17 08:42:59 <arioBarzan> is there any script that requires both <pubKeyHash> and <pubKey> itself get checked and is such script relayed by reference client?
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 958 2013-12-17 08:44:14 <wumpus> that would be pointless, if the public key matches the public key hash will also match, so just use the "<sig> <pubKey> OP_CHECKSIG"
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 989 2013-12-17 09:26:45 <owowo> warren: ping?
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 991 2013-12-17 09:27:35 <warren> owowo: ?
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 994 2013-12-17 09:28:23 <owowo> why do I get all connections in use in p2pool with liecoin 0.6.8.1? though not all connections are in use.
 995 2013-12-17 09:28:50 <warren> owowo: this is #bitcoin-dev
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 997 2013-12-17 09:29:45 <owowo> *0.8.6.1
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1009 2013-12-17 09:39:19 <gdoteof> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1t2v1l/bounty_300mbtc_if_you_can_crack_my_secret_sharing/
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1015 2013-12-17 09:43:32 <gmaxwell> gdoteof: ugh, we really don't need MORE ill considered forms for encoding private keys now. People are going to have big problems recovering keys in the future with the near endless supplies of crazy encoding schemes.
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1024 2013-12-17 09:51:19 <damethos> I got a quick q if anyone is around. The addresses which are participating in a multi-signature output, are they always newly created addresses or can I use existing ones as well?
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1029 2013-12-17 09:59:02 <arioBarzan> damethos: you could use existing ones as well.
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1037 2013-12-17 10:17:02 <damethos> arioBarzan, one more q about this. What if the existing address i am going to use has unspendable outputs? what will happen to them?
1038 2013-12-17 10:18:11 <arioBarzan> damethos: it doesn't matter if it has unspendable outputs.
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1040 2013-12-17 10:18:36 <sipa> damethos: bitcoin at the protocol level doesn't know addresses
1041 2013-12-17 10:18:40 <sipa> damethos: it only knows outputs
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1043 2013-12-17 10:18:55 <sipa> whether those outputs belong to the same or different addresses is irrelevant
1044 2013-12-17 10:19:24 <damethos> yeah i am aware, i am just trying to make it easier to understand on my side :)
1045 2013-12-17 10:19:26 <sipa> also, an output being unspendable implies it is *not* associated with an address
1046 2013-12-17 10:19:42 <sipa> if it was, you could spend it by signing with the corresponding key
1047 2013-12-17 10:19:46 <damethos> sorry i didnt mean unspendable, i meant unspent
1048 2013-12-17 10:19:54 <sipa> oh
1049 2013-12-17 10:19:56 <sipa> irrelevant
1050 2013-12-17 10:21:37 <damethos> so just to be clear, if i have Address A (which an output of 50 BTC) and I sign a multisignature tx with the pubkey of address A, do the 50 BTC become an output of the multisignature tx?
1051 2013-12-17 10:21:59 <damethos> *which is an output of
1052 2013-12-17 10:22:14 <sipa> no
1053 2013-12-17 10:22:28 <sipa> bitcoin internally only knows about outputs
1054 2013-12-17 10:23:23 <damethos> ok got it
1055 2013-12-17 10:23:34 <damethos> ty
1056 2013-12-17 10:25:29 <sipa> transactions consume 1 or more outputs (by providing the necessary signatures) and produce 1 or more new outputs, assigned to addresses/scripts
1057 2013-12-17 10:25:44 <sipa> but they don't spend "from" an address, they spend specific coins
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1059 2013-12-17 10:26:36 <sipa> the balance of an address (if you want to define something like that) is just the sum of the values of all unspent coins assigned to that address, but the protocol or bitcoin nodes never make this calculation
1060 2013-12-17 10:26:43 <sipa> it's just how humans look at it
1061 2013-12-17 10:27:05 <sipa> which also means that there is no extra cost to using a different address for every transaction
1062 2013-12-17 10:27:08 <abishek> does blocknotify only notify about confirmations for addresses on the wallet or all the blocks?
1063 2013-12-17 10:27:19 <arioBarzan> damethos: you could find a fairly complex but good explanation for script at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
1064 2013-12-17 10:27:23 <sipa> arioBarzan: all blocks
1065 2013-12-17 10:27:43 <sipa> -walletnotify notifies when wallet transactions arrive and/or confirm
1066 2013-12-17 10:27:51 <sipa> -blocknotify notifies for every new block
1067 2013-12-17 10:28:05 <damethos> got ya
1068 2013-12-17 10:28:17 <abishek> sipa, thnx
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1070 2013-12-17 10:28:40 <damethos> yeah i am trying to fully understand the multisignature, its a bit complex but i think now its more clear to me
1071 2013-12-17 10:29:33 <abishek> sipa, how do i differentiate whether the value received is for confirmations or transactions? there is only 1 parameters recd right
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1073 2013-12-17 10:30:41 <abishek> confirmation set the hash, but for transaction, it is the transaction_id right
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1078 2013-12-17 10:34:04 <arioBarzan> damethos: multisignature are two types . one type of them is a script like "m {pubkey}...{pubkey} n OP_CHECKMULTISIG" which n could at max be 3. it means you could have maximum three keys involved
1079 2013-12-17 10:34:27 <arioBarzan> the other is pay-to-script-hash known as P2SH
1080 2013-12-17 10:34:44 <arioBarzan> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0011.mediawiki
1081 2013-12-17 10:34:48 <arioBarzan> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0016.mediawiki
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1084 2013-12-17 10:40:51 <abishek> are confirmations for a transaction on the wallet notified using wallet notify or block notify? I tried implementing wallet notify and i only receive transaction notification. can you advice
1085 2013-12-17 10:41:20 <damethos> thanks for the info arioBarzan , i have already read about both of them but it wasn't very clear to me what will happen to the output of an address which signs the multisig tx
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1087 2013-12-17 10:42:20 <damethos> my other q though is why not make the P2SH the standard way since its easier
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1089 2013-12-17 10:43:14 <damethos> or at least thats the way i see it
1090 2013-12-17 10:43:25 <arioBarzan> I don't know why. but I personally prefer "M-of-N Standard Transactions" , because it could be more secure than P2SH
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1092 2013-12-17 10:44:18 <damethos> but its a bit to complex to use, specially if u are just a normal user
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1095 2013-12-17 10:45:35 <arioBarzan> for P2SH you should hope for no one finding another redeem script which have RIPEMD160 hash collision with your redeem script.
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1099 2013-12-17 10:46:58 <damethos> heh true
1100 2013-12-17 10:47:38 <damethos> so i guess its convenience over security
1101 2013-12-17 10:47:45 <arioBarzan> for "M-of-N Standard Transactions"  on the other hand, they should find M ECDSA private keys out of N to spend your coins, which to me seems less probable.
1102 2013-12-17 10:48:36 <damethos> i agree that its more secure….but less convenient :)
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1105 2013-12-17 10:49:48 <arioBarzan> "M-of-N Standard Transactions" is the most secure script I have seen. even for single signature addresses people use RIPEMD160 which also increase possibility of collision
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1107 2013-12-17 10:50:20 <arioBarzan> I mean "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG"
1108 2013-12-17 10:52:00 <arioBarzan> compare it with "<pubKey> OP_CHECKSIG" in which the <pubKey> is nearly one out of 2^256 possible keys
1109 2013-12-17 10:54:02 <arioBarzan> for hash160 there should be different <pubKey>s who have same <pubKeyHash> because OP_HASH160 result in 2^160 possible hashes
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1111 2013-12-17 10:54:50 <damethos> yeah i see what u are saying
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1113 2013-12-17 10:56:13 <damethos> so what happens in case a collision happens? what will happen to the tx?
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1115 2013-12-17 10:56:56 <damethos> it will just say unconfirmed forever?
1116 2013-12-17 10:57:37 <arioBarzan> no, in that case the dude could spend your coins. the tx get confirmed.
1117 2013-12-17 10:58:05 <_MrB_> I upgraded my bitcoind to latest git version recently, both traffic and cpu usage have increased significantly (see: http://media.mrblog.nl/u/mrb/m/none-e2a1/ ) Is this expected behaviour? Seems excessive.
1118 2013-12-17 10:58:30 <damethos> arioBarzan, isnt p2sh risky then? i mean, collisions will be more possible if bitcoin gets more and more attaction
1119 2013-12-17 10:58:48 <damethos> its not risky right now, but in the future, with much more transactions, its possible
1120 2013-12-17 10:59:08 <arioBarzan> damethos: it depends on how much risk one could tolorate.
1121 2013-12-17 10:59:54 <arioBarzan> but in reality such collision seems very very unlikely to happen.
1122 2013-12-17 11:00:31 <damethos> yeah but since this involces money "very unlikely" isnt the best answer :)
1123 2013-12-17 11:00:38 <damethos> *involves
1124 2013-12-17 11:01:10 <arioBarzan> the collision itself is a big challenge. because you would need some valid ECDSA keys as well.
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1126 2013-12-17 11:01:53 <arioBarzan> The thing I try to say is that the redeem script is not some random byte so you could change easily to find a hash collision.
1127 2013-12-17 11:02:05 <arioBarzan> *bytes
1128 2013-12-17 11:02:39 <damethos> yeah got ya
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1131 2013-12-17 11:03:40 <arioBarzan> scriptPubKey: OP_HASH160 [20-byte-hash of {[pubkey] OP_CHECKSIG} ] OP_EQUAL
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1133 2013-12-17 11:04:17 <arioBarzan> damethos: good luck.
1134 2013-12-17 11:04:29 <damethos> hehe
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1136 2013-12-17 11:06:20 <abishek> sendfrom function takes 6 parameters out of which 3 are optional, could someone explain what the last 3 parameters (<fromaccount> <tobitcoinaddress> <amount> [minconf=1] [comment] [comment-to]) are?
1137 2013-12-17 11:08:55 <arioBarzan> minconf ensures the account has a valid balance with at least [minconf] confirmations.
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1143 2013-12-17 11:14:03 <abishek> arioBarzan, how about comment? comment-to is a comment for the receiver if I am right.
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1153 2013-12-17 11:26:28 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|;;gribble
1154 2013-12-17 11:26:28 <gribble> yes I am gribble. why do you keep bothering me?
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1158 2013-12-17 11:33:36 <abishek> sendfrom function takes 6 parameters out of which 3 are optional, could someone explain when the last 2 parameters (<fromaccount> <tobitcoinaddress> <amount> [minconf=1] [comment] [comment-to]) are used?
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1164 2013-12-17 11:44:34 <abishek> michagogo|cloud, can you advice when the comment and comment-to parameters are used on the sendfrom method? Are these passed as part of the transaction?
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1166 2013-12-17 11:45:30 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|No, they're not
1167 2013-12-17 11:46:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|If anything at all, they only add comments in your wallet
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1185 2013-12-17 12:10:49 <jouke> Are addresses timestamped on creation?
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1223 2013-12-17 12:53:24 <shesek> jouke, you mean in your bitcoin client or in the blockchain/network?
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1226 2013-12-17 12:53:50 <shesek> the network has no idea when an address was created, but you can see when the first block that includes a transaction paying to that address was mined
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1228 2013-12-17 12:54:25 <shesek> (transactions don't have timestamps either, but the blocks that includes them do)
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1239 2013-12-17 13:03:35 <jouke> shesek: wallet
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1242 2013-12-17 13:06:26 <shesek> afaik, bitcoin-qt doesn't store timestamps of when you created an address
1243 2013-12-17 13:06:29 <shesek> but I might be wrong
1244 2013-12-17 13:06:42 <shesek> if its another client, then I have no idea
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1272 2013-12-17 13:27:44 <melvster> getdifficulty on the testnet shows 1, and block explorer shows 1, but bfgminer shows 11.5k ... im assuming bfgminer is correct and it's related to the 20 minute reset rule ...
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1295 2013-12-17 13:43:06 <ferroh> What's wrong with these transactions?
1296 2013-12-17 13:43:08 <ferroh> https://blockchain.info/tx/7419eadc7ae1032ab8383aa01f9283b0f0ee1ab066419e4914bd0735586e259a?show_adv=true
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1298 2013-12-17 13:43:18 <ferroh> https://blockchain.info/tx/ed5eca90b1f78107a59d549f82f0eb157ad4f11938c3302326bf515b9781657a?show_adv=true
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1306 2013-12-17 13:54:12 <andytoshi> ferroh: i've also got one that's a few days old ... not sure what's up
1307 2013-12-17 13:54:17 <andytoshi> this has never happened to me
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1311 2013-12-17 13:55:09 <andytoshi> oh, mine has an output less than 0.01 but no fee
1312 2013-12-17 13:55:11 <andytoshi> derp
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1333 2013-12-17 14:03:26 <andytoshi> it seems like that is your problem in both cases, ferroh
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1395 2013-12-17 14:54:55 <Anduck> how can i extract data from blk0000.dat?
1396 2013-12-17 14:54:58 s7r has joined
1397 2013-12-17 14:55:17 <kinlo> you just read it - it is a file with no indexes or headers
1398 2013-12-17 14:55:23 <kinlo> just block after block after block
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1400 2013-12-17 14:55:35 <Anduck> ok
1401 2013-12-17 14:55:41 <kinlo> there is a marker between blocks I believe, but that will be pretty obvious when reading it
1402 2013-12-17 14:55:47 <kinlo> as every block starts with a version number
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1409 2013-12-17 14:59:41 <Anduck> is there a workaround for getting genesisblock tx raw transaction?
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1418 2013-12-17 15:04:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|kinlo: By marker, do you just mean the netmagic?
1419 2013-12-17 15:04:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anduck: no. As far as the software is concerned the genesis block's coinbase doesn't exist
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1421 2013-12-17 15:05:15 <Anduck> is there a way to remove the check?
1422 2013-12-17 15:05:27 <Anduck> temporarily
1423 2013-12-17 15:05:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anduck: what check?
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1425 2013-12-17 15:05:51 <Anduck> the check if it's genesis blocks tx
1426 2013-12-17 15:05:56 <Anduck> or how is it done
1427 2013-12-17 15:06:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anduck: uh?
1428 2013-12-17 15:06:11 <Anduck> hmm
1429 2013-12-17 15:06:20 <Anduck> well how can i get genesis block transaction as raw?
1430 2013-12-17 15:06:21 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|There isn't a rule saying "if this is the genesis block, pretend it doesn't exist"
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1432 2013-12-17 15:06:35 <Anduck> alright
1433 2013-12-17 15:06:44 <Anduck> but what is the workaround for it?
1434 2013-12-17 15:07:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Rather, the way the block index, utxo set, etc work, they don't include the genesis block
1435 2013-12-17 15:07:10 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Anduck: why do you need it?
1436 2013-12-17 15:07:40 <Anduck> altcoin and for ABE
1437 2013-12-17 15:08:03 <Anduck> ABE wants to know the raw transaction of genesis blocks' tx
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1439 2013-12-17 15:08:51 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|The genesis block is hard coded into the source code
1440 2013-12-17 15:08:57 <Anduck> yea
1441 2013-12-17 15:08:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|You can look there
1442 2013-12-17 15:09:02 <Anduck> hmm
1443 2013-12-17 15:09:06 <Anduck> ok
1444 2013-12-17 15:09:09 <Anduck> i'll check
1445 2013-12-17 15:09:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I don't know which file, though
1446 2013-12-17 15:09:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(I know that a lot of variables are in chainparams, that may be a good place to start looking)
1447 2013-12-17 15:10:39 <Anduck> hmm
1448 2013-12-17 15:10:51 <Anduck> there's no raw tx from the genesis block in the source
1449 2013-12-17 15:11:08 <Anduck> since the source makes the genesis block
1450 2013-12-17 15:11:16 <Anduck> i think i need to extract the raw tx from blk0000.dat
1451 2013-12-17 15:12:04 <Luke-Jr> help bring sanity to Hive: https://github.com/hivewallet/hive-osx/issues/146 ☺
1452 2013-12-17 15:12:14 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What does the source specify?
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1473 2013-12-17 15:36:47 <andytoshi> ;;later tell ferroh -- fyi, my transaction was just mined after 4.7 days -- good luck with yours
1474 2013-12-17 15:36:47 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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1481 2013-12-17 15:40:26 <ferroh> andytoshi, what seems to be the problem?
1482 2013-12-17 15:40:37 <ferroh> Both transactions are for much larger amounts than 0.01
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1487 2013-12-17 15:42:58 <andytoshi> well, the one with the unsigned input won't get in without its sibling, i guess..
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1489 2013-12-17 15:43:05 <andytoshi> and the sibling has an output less than 0.01
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1491 2013-12-17 15:43:33 <andytoshi> my transaction was also much more than 0.01, i guess it looks at all output sizes
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1502 2013-12-17 16:03:48 <Luke-Jr> any ideas how to get more details from gperf? like what functions called the clock_gettime so much it used 50% CPU? :/
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1509 2013-12-17 16:11:01 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Woot, I finally have my computer back
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1597 2013-12-17 17:37:14 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: fwiw, I think payment requests are appropriate to keep in the wallet and Transactions list. paradigm shift, but a helpful one IMO
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1650 2013-12-17 18:09:49 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, "Unless you’re able to prove that your “bitcoins” are within the United States, then you may be required to file FBARs." LOL
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1654 2013-12-17 18:11:11 <phantomcircuit> HaltingState, i would be fairly surprised if holding the private key to bitcoins counted as a foreign financial account regardless of the country in which the private keys are held
1655 2013-12-17 18:11:30 <HaltingState> i know; but lawyers involved; could get retarded
1656 2013-12-17 18:11:30 <phantomcircuit> either in a physical sense of where the information is or the legal sense of title to x number of bitcoins
1657 2013-12-17 18:11:36 <phantomcircuit> (obviously ianal)
1658 2013-12-17 18:11:50 <HaltingState> holding bitcoins in online wallet outside of US == FBARs?
1659 2013-12-17 18:12:54 <phantomcircuit> HaltingState, in which you do not control the private key?
1660 2013-12-17 18:13:03 <phantomcircuit> bc.i is certainly not (despite their security being a joke)
1661 2013-12-17 18:13:25 <HaltingState> no idea; some laywer thinks the IRS could apply FBAR to bitcoin, which would be retarded
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1663 2013-12-17 18:13:33 <HaltingState> the law is not clear and subject to interpretation
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1665 2013-12-17 18:15:32 <maaku> if you have a numbered swiss account, it's considered foreign regardless of where the private access passwords are stored
1666 2013-12-17 18:15:52 <maaku> so is the bitcoin network itself foreign?
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1668 2013-12-17 18:16:00 <HaltingState> foreign means non-US
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1671 2013-12-17 18:16:06 <maaku> i know
1672 2013-12-17 18:16:14 <HaltingState> or in institition not registered/controlled by US
1673 2013-12-17 18:16:23 <andytoshi> are foreign and nonforeign exclusive?
1674 2013-12-17 18:16:27 <HaltingState> but IRS might choose to exempt bitcoin
1675 2013-12-17 18:16:36 <andytoshi> arguably since there are nodes inside and outside the us..
1676 2013-12-17 18:17:00 <Luke-Jr> "outside the Fed" seems to be "foreign" in this context?
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1678 2013-12-17 18:17:30 <HaltingState> FBAR goes to fincen not IRS; wtf
1679 2013-12-17 18:17:35 <maaku> Luke-Jr: no, you can have a CAD bank account on U.S. soil and have it be domestic
1680 2013-12-17 18:17:46 <maaku> physical/regulator location of the bank is what seems to matter
1681 2013-12-17 18:18:33 <HaltingState> this lawyer is bullshit; did not substantiate fincen requirement
1682 2013-12-17 18:18:36 <maaku> andytoshi: I have no idea how this will play out. Just pointing out that arguments over where the private keys are held is a red herring.
1683 2013-12-17 18:18:49 <HaltingState> but having coins in BCT-e could trigger FBAR, or using foreign exchanges
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1690 2013-12-17 18:22:14 <Ry4an> FBAR is triggered at $10K in USD value, right?
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1762 2013-12-17 19:33:51 <uiop> is it true that, suppose a txn with a "non-standard" pubkeyscript gets into a block, then that txn will/must/whatever be spendable regardless of the non-standardness/complexity/arbitraryness of its pubkeyscript?
1763 2013-12-17 19:34:11 <gmaxwell> No.
1764 2013-12-17 19:34:24 <gmaxwell> Depending on what you mean by "spendable".
1765 2013-12-17 19:34:47 <gmaxwell> The standardness tests check the standardness of inputs as well.
1766 2013-12-17 19:35:26 <uiop> gmaxwell: ah, ok. why is that? in particular, which piece in the chain will prevent this? the miner's software's txn validity check when that non-std txn appears as an input?
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1769 2013-12-17 19:35:38 <uiop> ah
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1771 2013-12-17 19:36:54 <uiop> ok, well putting that aside for a moment. i'm wondering is this "attack" (depending on perspective) scenario is possible (both technically and practically):
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1774 2013-12-17 19:38:02 <uiop> 1) you create a txn with a sufficiently non-standard pubkeyscript (for some insignificant amount, it doesn't matter). the point here being to ensure that no miner will include it in a block
1775 2013-12-17 19:38:53 <uiop> 2) you make a block with it and a coinbase txn, then take your sweet time mining it
1776 2013-12-17 19:39:18 <uiop> 3) when you eventually succeed, you've just make 25btc from the coinbase txn
1777 2013-12-17 19:39:27 <uiop> </>
1778 2013-12-17 19:39:44 <gmaxwell> And?
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1781 2013-12-17 19:40:18 <gmaxwell> So what? What did step (1) matter at all?
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1783 2013-12-17 19:40:34 <uiop> gmaxwell: the point is that you can ... er, wait hmm. by "And?" are you saying that this is no more profitable than just mining in general?
1784 2013-12-17 19:40:46 <gmaxwell> How could you possibly think it was?
1785 2013-12-17 19:41:09 <uiop> gmaxwell: the point of (1), in my mind, was to..
1786 2013-12-17 19:41:10 <gmaxwell> Sorry, you've wooshed me with an entire new class of misunderstanding about the bitcoin system that I've yet not witnessed. :)
1787 2013-12-17 19:41:18 <uiop> gmaxwell: heh
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1789 2013-12-17 19:42:22 <gmaxwell> Go on— why do you think (1) mattered?  (alternatively, how is that at all different from just making a totally ordinary transaction, not bothering to announce it, and mining a block with it in it?)
1790 2013-12-17 19:42:39 <uiop> i'm a programmer reading the code/tech docs for the last few weeks, and do thought experiments
1791 2013-12-17 19:42:52 <uiop> gmaxwell: ok, i'll explain my logic
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1793 2013-12-17 19:43:30 <Luke-Jr> XD
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1796 2013-12-17 19:43:59 <uiop> the point of (1) was to ensure that i could create a block with at least one non-coinbase txn and that no other miner would include that txn in a block
1797 2013-12-17 19:44:14 <uiop> but actually, it occurs to me that a block need no have *any* txns
1798 2013-12-17 19:44:34 <uiop> (i'm unclear on whether this matters)
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1800 2013-12-17 19:44:49 <Luke-Jr> …
1801 2013-12-17 19:44:51 <Luke-Jr> happens all the time
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1803 2013-12-17 19:45:13 <gmaxwell> uiop: It doesn't need to have any transactions except for the coinbase. I'm still somewhat at a loss as to what you were thinking it would achieve.
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1805 2013-12-17 19:45:40 <uiop> Luke-Jr: so then, is the only benefit (from the miner's pov) of including any txns in a block the txn fees (if any)?
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1807 2013-12-17 19:46:22 <Luke-Jr> uiop: not the only benefit, no
1808 2013-12-17 19:46:30 <gmaxwell> uiop: not the only benefit, after all mining rewards the miners with bitcoins, and those bitcoins are kinda worthless if the network doesn't work well. But fees are the only direct incentive.
1809 2013-12-17 19:46:40 <Luke-Jr> uiop: it also contributes to making bitcoin viable as a currency, which is where their 25 BTC gets its value from
1810 2013-12-17 19:47:06 <gmaxwell> at the same time, there is pratically no cost to including transactions.
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1812 2013-12-17 19:47:21 <uiop> gmaxwell: vaguely, my thinking was along the lines of "somehow it would give the attacker an edge in successfully mining a block by having a txn in that block that no other miner might include in some block they successfully mined before the attacker mined his"
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1818 2013-12-17 19:48:37 <uiop> ah right (another incentive to including txns in blocks being that it contributes to the stability of the system the miner is depending on to spend their block reward)
1819 2013-12-17 19:49:06 <gmaxwell> uiop: Okay. The inclusion of transactions is orthorgonal with the success in mining blocks.
1820 2013-12-17 19:49:46 <uiop> gmaxwell: aha, i see. yes, that is really the heart of my scenario i suppose.
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1822 2013-12-17 19:50:05 <helo> isn't it actually a bit of a disadvantage to mine a block with transactions the network hasn't yet seen?
1823 2013-12-17 19:50:27 <helo> because of increased propagation time
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1826 2013-12-17 19:51:42 <Luke-Jr> yes
1827 2013-12-17 19:51:50 <Luke-Jr> it's disadvantaged even if the network HAS seen it
1828 2013-12-17 19:51:57 <Luke-Jr> just not as much
1829 2013-12-17 19:53:39 <uiop> will a miner only consider a just-received block valid (from the pov of building on it) if all txns contained therein are one that it has seen independently of this new block?
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1832 2013-12-17 19:54:31 <uiop> in other words, is part of the block validity test whether contained transactions have indeed been broadcast before being mined as part of a block?
1833 2013-12-17 19:54:48 <Luke-Jr> it's not.
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1835 2013-12-17 19:55:52 <uiop> Luke-Jr: ah, ok
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1847 2013-12-17 20:01:29 <uiop> Luke-Jr: oh. so in other words, the only point of broadcasting txns is to get them to a miner.
1848 2013-12-17 20:01:39 <Luke-Jr> yes
1849 2013-12-17 20:01:49 * uiop gets it
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1856 2013-12-17 20:06:11 <Luke-Jr> uiop: well, some merchants may accept transactions without them being mined, too
1857 2013-12-17 20:06:23 <Luke-Jr> of course, in that case you can just send it to them personally
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1864 2013-12-17 20:14:46 <uiop> has anyone made any pretty graphviz(1) graphs of pieces of the blockchain? (i'm slowly moving towards doing this)
1865 2013-12-17 20:15:49 <uiop> say, e.g. find all non-trivial SCCs, dot(1) them separately, then montage(1) them in group of 4
1866 2013-12-17 20:15:52 <uiop> or something
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1904 2013-12-17 20:47:29 <uiop> also it'd be amusing to implem sha256/etc in script OP_*-codes
1905 2013-12-17 20:48:24 <phantomcircuit> uiop, go away satan
1906 2013-12-17 20:48:35 <uiop> :)
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2032 2013-12-17 22:44:07 <zack-bitcoin> big scripts are more expensive to broadcast.
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2043 2013-12-17 22:49:15 <alex_fun> hey folks, how do I import new vanity address to btc wallet? do I type bitcoind - importpvkey name of the file containing key?
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2052 2013-12-17 22:53:04 <maaku> no, put the actual key on the command line
2053 2013-12-17 22:53:15 <maaku> (and "unset HISTFILE")
2054 2013-12-17 22:54:50 <alex_fun> unset histfile? whats that?
2055 2013-12-17 22:55:01 <alex_fun> going to try
2056 2013-12-17 22:55:08 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: wait
2057 2013-12-17 22:55:16 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: read `bitcoind help importprivkey` first
2058 2013-12-17 22:55:25 <maaku> it's a bashism that keeps the command from being logged to your .bash_history
2059 2013-12-17 22:55:29 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: there is a boolean you likely want to set to 0 (or else it will lock up bitcoind for minutes)
2060 2013-12-17 22:56:37 <maaku> or better yet: bitcoind importprivkey `cat secret_key.txt`
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2063 2013-12-17 22:57:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Hm, something just occurred to me
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2066 2013-12-17 22:58:41 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|We bundle our own leveldb to avoid potential forks, with jgarzik's hypothetical deadbeef bug
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2068 2013-12-17 22:59:00 <alex_fun> Luke-Jr: yes it happen already it crashed bitcoind
2069 2013-12-17 22:59:16 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Why is that not the case with other libraries?
2070 2013-12-17 22:59:26 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|OpenSSL, for example?
2071 2013-12-17 22:59:35 <alex_fun> maaku: or better yet: bitcoind importprivkey `cat secret_key.txt` thats simple enough, ty :)
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2073 2013-12-17 23:00:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Could other libs we use potentially have deadbeef bugs in them?
2074 2013-12-17 23:00:56 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Or is that a unique issue with leveldb?
2075 2013-12-17 23:01:52 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: it's an openssl one too, but generally openssl's code has been much more stable.
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2078 2013-12-17 23:02:16 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: it seems likely that we'll switch out of using openssl to libsecp256k1 eventually in any case.
2079 2013-12-17 23:02:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, I see
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2081 2013-12-17 23:03:02 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|What do we use OpenSSL for, actually?
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2083 2013-12-17 23:03:05 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: in theory _anything_ in the toolchain has that risk, but some parts are more risky than others.
2084 2013-12-17 23:03:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|I know it does the ecdsa
2085 2013-12-17 23:03:16 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: all our bignum and ecc code.
2086 2013-12-17 23:03:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But what about the rpc SSL stuff?
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2089 2013-12-17 23:04:03 <gmaxwell> michagogo|cloud: it would continue to use openssl of course, but there is no network consensus risk there.
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2092 2013-12-17 23:05:13 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Okay, figured it was something like that
2093 2013-12-17 23:05:43 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|(Not 100% sure what "bignum code" is…)
2094 2013-12-17 23:05:58 <Luke-Jr> bignum = big numbers
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2096 2013-12-17 23:08:25 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Luke-Jr: ...yes, I got that part
2097 2013-12-17 23:08:37 <alex_fun> maaku:  error: Error parsing JSON:Address:
2098 2013-12-17 23:08:40 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|But what's a big number?
2099 2013-12-17 23:09:04 <maaku> alex_fun: all cat does is dump the file in that position on the command line
2100 2013-12-17 23:09:17 <maaku> better make sure that file only contains the private key
2101 2013-12-17 23:09:20 <andytoshi> 256-bit numbers are bignums
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2103 2013-12-17 23:09:30 <andytoshi> basically anything large enough that it can't fit in a native type
2104 2013-12-17 23:09:48 <alex_fun> maaku ok so once I have txt file with only private key in it what do I do?
2105 2013-12-17 23:10:17 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah. So what does OpenSSL provide wrt big numbers?
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2107 2013-12-17 23:10:47 <andytoshi> it includes a complete bignum library, which can do add/sub/mult/div/convert to bytestring
2108 2013-12-17 23:11:30 <andytoshi> which is a little weird, it's not conceptually related to anything else openssl does
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2111 2013-12-17 23:11:46 <andytoshi> but most of the crypto depends on it in some way or another
2112 2013-12-17 23:11:52 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, so you need a library to be able to do anything relating to those big numbers?
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2114 2013-12-17 23:12:03 <andytoshi> yeah, C++ provides nothing
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2119 2013-12-17 23:12:59 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|So all the hashes, addresses, txids, pow, all that is OpenSSL?
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2122 2013-12-17 23:13:22 <sipa> symmetric crypto usually does not use large numbers
2123 2013-12-17 23:13:38 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|s/is/relies on/
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2125 2013-12-17 23:14:33 <andytoshi> michagogo|cloud: i believe that's correct
2126 2013-12-17 23:15:06 <sipa> hashes/addresses is sha256/ripemd160, which is done in openssl (but could be done elsewhere)
2127 2013-12-17 23:15:14 <sipa> txids and pow are just hashes
2128 2013-12-17 23:15:27 <sipa> but none of all that uses (directly or indirectly) openssl's bignum
2129 2013-12-17 23:15:45 <sipa> it is used indirectly for ecdsa by openssl
2130 2013-12-17 23:15:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Isn't pow done as an integer comparison?
2131 2013-12-17 23:15:58 <andytoshi> i think addresses are parsed using bignums
2132 2013-12-17 23:16:00 <andytoshi> they are in vanitygen anyway
2133 2013-12-17 23:16:06 <maaku> ... of big numbers
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2135 2013-12-17 23:16:23 <sipa> andytoshi: ah base58 may be implemented using bignum (but could easily be done without too)
2136 2013-12-17 23:16:30 <sipa> pow comparison is using uint256
2137 2013-12-17 23:16:34 <sipa> not using bignum
2138 2013-12-17 23:16:36 <maaku> oh wait, sorry misread - i don't think unit256 is bignum, right?
2139 2013-12-17 23:16:37 <maaku> ok
2140 2013-12-17 23:16:48 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|uint256?
2141 2013-12-17 23:16:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: eh, not sure it can be done without..
2142 2013-12-17 23:16:57 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sure it can.
2143 2013-12-17 23:17:00 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you need *some* bignum code, openssl or otherwise.
2144 2013-12-17 23:17:10 <sipa> Luke-Jr: conceptually, sure
2145 2013-12-17 23:17:16 capa66 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2146 2013-12-17 23:17:21 <maaku> the scripting language is very definately defined in terms of bignums
2147 2013-12-17 23:17:23 rastapopuloto has left ()
2148 2013-12-17 23:17:30 hydrogenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2149 2013-12-17 23:17:30 * Luke-Jr wonders if he's the only one who has implemented base58 without a bignum lib <.<
2150 2013-12-17 23:17:36 <sipa> Luke-Jr: but it's trivial to write a base58 encoder/decoder that is hardly more lines of code that does all bignum stuff implicitly
2151 2013-12-17 23:17:47 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Didn't someone just say that c++ doesn't handle 256 bit numbers?
2152 2013-12-17 23:17:54 capa66 has joined
2153 2013-12-17 23:18:05 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|And so a library for bignums is needed?
2154 2013-12-17 23:18:10 <Luke-Jr> sipa: 145 lines of C
2155 2013-12-17 23:18:12 * michagogo cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|scrolls up
2156 2013-12-17 23:18:14 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: that's why we have a class for 256-bit numbers
2157 2013-12-17 23:18:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: sounds much
2158 2013-12-17 23:18:41 <maaku> michagogo|cloud: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/uint256.h
2159 2013-12-17 23:18:50 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you can optimise? :D
2160 2013-12-17 23:18:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: oh I thought you were just saying you couldn't do base58 without a bignum lib. :)
2161 2013-12-17 23:19:02 <Luke-Jr> https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/libblkmaker/source/8d1946930153a418d9d7394f362a7cc0de77040b:base58.c
2162 2013-12-17 23:19:19 <gmaxwell> I remember talking to you about that before. :P
2163 2013-12-17 23:19:29 <gmaxwell> yup.
2164 2013-12-17 23:19:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: base58.c still has bignum in it, conceptually
2165 2013-12-17 23:19:37 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2166 2013-12-17 23:19:37 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2167 2013-12-17 23:19:50 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|1:05:34 <andytoshi> 256-bit numbers are bignums
2168 2013-12-17 23:19:54 <andytoshi> sipa: it's really hard
2169 2013-12-17 23:19:57 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|1:05:44 <andytoshi> basically anything large enough that it can't fit in a native type
2170 2013-12-17 23:20:03 <michagogo> cloud!uid14316@wikia/Michagogo|Was that inaccurate?
2171 2013-12-17 23:20:08 <maaku> yes
2172 2013-12-17 23:20:13 <maaku> uint256 is not a bignum
2173 2013-12-17 23:20:30 <sipa> by 'bignum' we specifically refer to the openssl bignum library, not some other large integer implementation
2174 2013-12-17 23:20:37 <andytoshi> right, my bad
2175 2013-12-17 23:20:41 <andytoshi> i forgot about uint256
2176 2013-12-17 23:20:47 ovidiusoft has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2177 2013-12-17 23:20:49 <sipa> uint256 is a big integer implementation inside bitcoin
2178 2013-12-17 23:20:55 erans_ has joined
2179 2013-12-17 23:20:58 <sipa> which can't do hard stuff :)
2180 2013-12-17 23:21:16 btiefert has joined
2181 2013-12-17 23:21:53 <skinnkavaj> Anyone good with coding? http://tengigabit.net/pub/litevalue-org/public/ Wanna relay btc-e chat for me? I pay you
2182 2013-12-17 23:23:00 capa66 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2183 2013-12-17 23:23:03 <ne0futur> no please dont spread the trolbox !
2184 2013-12-17 23:23:13 erans__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2185 2013-12-17 23:23:54 <sipa> yup, base58 uses bignum
2186 2013-12-17 23:24:17 capa66 has joined
2187 2013-12-17 23:24:25 <sipa> and some PoW stuff too
2188 2013-12-17 23:24:27 <sipa> and script
2189 2013-12-17 23:25:53 cxopp0 has joined
2190 2013-12-17 23:26:35 <andytoshi> sounds like satoshi'd have been better off just using lisp
2191 2013-12-17 23:26:37 <gmaxwell> though with all the disabled opcodes I'm not really sure that you can tell if script uses bignums. :P
2192 2013-12-17 23:26:37 <andytoshi> ;)
2193 2013-12-17 23:27:04 <sipa> gmaxwell: pretty sure int64_t suffices nowadays
2194 2013-12-17 23:27:13 <BlueMatt> I dont think so
2195 2013-12-17 23:27:19 rusmarltc has joined
2196 2013-12-17 23:27:21 Diapolis has joined
2197 2013-12-17 23:27:32 <sipa> BlueMatt: how so?
2198 2013-12-17 23:28:16 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2199 2013-12-17 23:28:21 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/data/script_valid.json#L300
2200 2013-12-17 23:28:28 Thepok has joined
2201 2013-12-17 23:28:33 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
2202 2013-12-17 23:28:34 <BlueMatt> and I think you can do larger ints in scripts, no?
2203 2013-12-17 23:28:57 capa66 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2204 2013-12-17 23:29:08 <gmaxwell> you can load one, but I /think/ all you can do is an equality test?
2205 2013-12-17 23:29:27 capa66 has joined
2206 2013-12-17 23:29:38 <BlueMatt> you can still do, eg, abs or add/sub
2207 2013-12-17 23:29:54 <sipa> CastToBigNum() only accepts up to 4-byte vectors
2208 2013-12-17 23:29:59 <BlueMatt> ahh
2209 2013-12-17 23:30:37 <sipa> so i guess you can get to slightly over 2^32, by taking 0xFFFFFFFF and calling OP_ADD1 a few times
2210 2013-12-17 23:31:01 sharperguy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2211 2013-12-17 23:31:03 chilero_ has joined
2212 2013-12-17 23:31:05 <BlueMatt> you could take it and ADD a bunch to get significantly over
2213 2013-12-17 23:31:09 <BlueMatt> (though not by orders of magnitude
2214 2013-12-17 23:31:21 rdymac has joined
2215 2013-12-17 23:32:07 <sipa> actually, only once
2216 2013-12-17 23:32:09 <BlueMatt> in any case, there's still the sticky stuff of storing it as bignum does (big endian with sign bit iirc?)
2217 2013-12-17 23:32:22 <sipa> as the input to OP_ADD needs to be <=4 bytes
2218 2013-12-17 23:32:29 <BlueMatt> oh, hmm
2219 2013-12-17 23:32:34 <sipa> so you can reach 0x1FFFFFFFE
2220 2013-12-17 23:32:43 <sipa> by adding 0xFFFFFFFF to itself
2221 2013-12-17 23:32:45 <BlueMatt> someone should write test-cases for these edge cases
2222 2013-12-17 23:33:06 rusmarltc has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ))
2223 2013-12-17 23:34:16 chilero has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2224 2013-12-17 23:34:17 <sipa> yes!
2225 2013-12-17 23:34:49 mappum has joined
2226 2013-12-17 23:35:43 chilero_ has left ()
2227 2013-12-17 23:36:01 mapppum has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2228 2013-12-17 23:36:38 * sipa wonders how hard it would be to get bitcoin openssl-free
2229 2013-12-17 23:36:40 ItSANgo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2230 2013-12-17 23:37:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: rng...
2231 2013-12-17 23:37:18 <andytoshi> michagogo|cloud pointed out that openssl is also used for rpc ssl :(
2232 2013-12-17 23:37:34 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: sure but that doesn't even have to be compiled in.
2233 2013-12-17 23:37:43 <sipa> yeah, can be optional
2234 2013-12-17 23:37:44 * gmaxwell continues to consider that feature worthless.
2235 2013-12-17 23:37:53 <andytoshi> i wonder if there is a forking bug in the OP_ADD behavior
2236 2013-12-17 23:37:59 <andytoshi> across the various clients
2237 2013-12-17 23:37:59 <gmaxwell> (and probably dangerous)
2238 2013-12-17 23:38:00 Coincidental has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2239 2013-12-17 23:38:24 <sipa> andytoshi: i'm sure that pretty every "full" implementation has forking bugs
2240 2013-12-17 23:38:27 erans_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2241 2013-12-17 23:38:44 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: dude we just found one about a month ago in _OP_CHECKSIG_ that forked bitcoin-ruby and bitcoinj-full-validation at a minimum.
2242 2013-12-17 23:38:55 <sipa> or rather, any combination of two full node implmentations
2243 2013-12-17 23:39:09 <gmaxwell> And grau's signing issue would have been a forking bug too, that time in OP_CHECKMULTISIG
2244 2013-12-17 23:39:38 <sipa> BlueMatt: is bitcoinj-full-validation complete nowadays?
2245 2013-12-17 23:39:52 kinglet_ has joined
2246 2013-12-17 23:39:52 kinglet_ has quit (Changing host)
2247 2013-12-17 23:39:52 kinglet_ has joined
2248 2013-12-17 23:39:58 <sipa> iirc p2sh or blockv2 or so was missing at some point, but my data is old
2249 2013-12-17 23:39:59 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: doing openssl-free for the consensus stuff is worthwhile, even if openssl-free likely is not
2250 2013-12-17 23:39:59 dundysfmobile has joined
2251 2013-12-17 23:40:08 <gmaxwell> I did come up with a way of putting more tests into a blockchain... perhaps it was obvious to everyone else but I only realized it a month or two ago.
2252 2013-12-17 23:40:20 ItSANgo has joined
2253 2013-12-17 23:40:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: OP_NOT ?
2254 2013-12-17 23:40:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: p2sh was never missing in the validation, just in address form (its added, though not in a released version)
2255 2013-12-17 23:40:26 <BlueMatt> sipa: blockv2....ehhhh.....
2256 2013-12-17 23:40:26 capa66 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2257 2013-12-17 23:40:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea.
2258 2013-12-17 23:40:44 <sipa> BlueMatt: yeah, just talking about validation
2259 2013-12-17 23:40:52 capa66 has joined
2260 2013-12-17 23:40:54 <dundysfmobile> looking to pay someone to help me integrate bitcoin deposits and withdrawals into the poker mavens api.  pm me
2261 2013-12-17 23:40:57 Shantanu has joined
2262 2013-12-17 23:40:58 <gmaxwell> right now you can't test for "this script must fail" without using something like the blocktester.  But we could have a bunch of regular "must fail" scripts followed by an OP_NOT.
2263 2013-12-17 23:41:17 <gmaxwell> doesn't help the *VERIFY forms, but everything else it does.
2264 2013-12-17 23:41:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: you can't ever test OP_... that
2265 2013-12-17 23:41:46 <gmaxwell> I think it's a bit silly that the *VERIFY forms exist, but oh well.
2266 2013-12-17 23:41:50 xire has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2267 2013-12-17 23:41:55 <BlueMatt> sipa: what ever happened to getting non-canonical txn marked non-std?
2268 2013-12-17 23:42:03 <andytoshi> trying to save a byte i guess
2269 2013-12-17 23:42:08 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: they are now I think
2270 2013-12-17 23:42:21 <Luke-Jr> at least, Eligius seems to reject sendrawtransaction from people who have non-canonical sigs..
2271 2013-12-17 23:42:23 <BlueMatt> what ever happened to the plans to soft-fork them away?
2272 2013-12-17 23:42:23 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: there are a whole bunch of places where bytes are wasted though. :P
2273 2013-12-17 23:42:34 kinglet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2274 2013-12-17 23:42:54 <gmaxwell> they're still commonly being produced. I think we need to change strategies to mutate these things when we see them.
2275 2013-12-17 23:42:57 <andytoshi> all the more reason to save that one ;)
2276 2013-12-17 23:43:11 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: how are they getting into blocks as non-std?
2277 2013-12-17 23:43:13 <sipa> BlueMatt: they're not non-standard technically (not in IsStandard), but they are treated as such (not relayed, ...)
2278 2013-12-17 23:43:14 <BlueMatt> how many pools take non-std?
2279 2013-12-17 23:43:56 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: 1
2280 2013-12-17 23:44:05 <gmaxwell> no idea, they aren't making it into blocks _fast_, people using them have been having bad expirences... but they do.
2281 2013-12-17 23:44:10 <BlueMatt> how many pools take non-canonicals?
2282 2013-12-17 23:44:17 <BlueMatt> ugh
2283 2013-12-17 23:44:20 <Luke-Jr> any running older versions
2284 2013-12-17 23:44:27 <BlueMatt> ahh, yea
2285 2013-12-17 23:44:36 * BlueMatt bets on a few pools still running 0.3.24...
2286 2013-12-17 23:44:44 <sipa> BlueMatt: even after march 11?
2287 2013-12-17 23:44:47 <gmaxwell> Also, there is lots of mutiability remaining... e.g. we've not released a version of bitcoin-qt that does the canonical S form yet.
2288 2013-12-17 23:45:10 <BlueMatt> sipa: with patches to make it work today "my mining patches cant be ported to the latest versions!"
2289 2013-12-17 23:45:12 Shantanu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2290 2013-12-17 23:45:18 <sipa> does deepbit still exist?
2291 2013-12-17 23:45:55 <Luke-Jr> barely
2292 2013-12-17 23:46:05 * BlueMatt wonders if bitcoin core devs would take any more of his patches if he made a mutate-and-relay pull...
2293 2013-12-17 23:46:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: there are a bunch of little details to worry about, but I think we probably should do it.
2294 2013-12-17 23:46:44 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: mutate to canonical form? :D
2295 2013-12-17 23:46:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea.
2296 2013-12-17 23:46:55 go1111111 has joined
2297 2013-12-17 23:46:59 <andytoshi> oh :P
2298 2013-12-17 23:47:08 <gmaxwell> but the problem is that if we deploy the S flip that way now it will set the world on fire.
2299 2013-12-17 23:47:19 <gmaxwell> (It'll even break bitcoin-qt pretty badly)
2300 2013-12-17 23:47:30 <andytoshi> i thought the problem was that nobody would notice it
2301 2013-12-17 23:47:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, baby steps...fix S in 0.9, maybe mutate-and-relay in 0.9 for non-S
2302 2013-12-17 23:47:56 <BlueMatt> 0.10 can start thinking about mutate-S
2303 2013-12-17 23:48:25 <andytoshi> oh, i see, a mutate would look like a double-spend
2304 2013-12-17 23:48:28 <maaku> BlueMatt: more important is to fix the wallet code so a mutate doesn't look like a double-spend
2305 2013-12-17 23:49:00 <BlueMatt> maaku: meh, broken clients deserve to be broken
2306 2013-12-17 23:50:16 <sipa> to an extent
2307 2013-12-17 23:50:30 mapppum has joined
2308 2013-12-17 23:50:33 <sipa> receive version message: /Perone:0.0.1/: version 60002, blocks=-1, us=0.0.0.0:8333, them=0.0.0.0:8333, peer=130.83.106.32:52668
2309 2013-12-17 23:50:42 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: are the clients broken if I have a relay node broadcasting a different mutation to each peer? :P
2310 2013-12-17 23:50:49 <Luke-Jr> <.<
2311 2013-12-17 23:51:14 dabb has joined
2312 2013-12-17 23:51:22 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: I meant broken as in the sense of generating non-canonical txn and devs ignoring prodding from core devs on the issue
2313 2013-12-17 23:51:38 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: my point is the sender *might not have generated it non-canonical*
2314 2013-12-17 23:51:48 <Luke-Jr> it could be a relay node "normalising" it to a non-canonical form
2315 2013-12-17 23:52:03 dabb has quit (Client Quit)
2316 2013-12-17 23:52:06 <Luke-Jr> that's why the receiver needs to canonicalise for comparisons
2317 2013-12-17 23:52:07 <gmaxwell> it's not a "broken deserves to be broken" issue as much as picking what kind of breakage we cause.
2318 2013-12-17 23:53:05 <BlueMatt> yes, and if they generated it canonical and a relay node mutates it and then we mutate it back to canonical it shouldnt be an issue...
2319 2013-12-17 23:53:12 dabb has joined
2320 2013-12-17 23:53:29 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, its a matter of killing things which devs are clearly ignoring what they should be doing...
2321 2013-12-17 23:53:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: if we start flipping S now, thats obviously bad
2322 2013-12-17 23:53:46 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2323 2013-12-17 23:53:47 alex_fun is now known as funky
2324 2013-12-17 23:53:51 <sipa> bitcoin-qt may just be the client that deals worst with mutated transactions...
2325 2013-12-17 23:53:52 <BlueMatt> (even if technically bitcoin-qt may be considered broken)
2326 2013-12-17 23:53:55 Sorcier_FXK has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2327 2013-12-17 23:54:16 capa66 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2328 2013-12-17 23:54:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: nah, lots of other clients really agressively spend their unconfirmed change at least bitcoin-qt tries to avoid that
2329 2013-12-17 23:54:43 capa66 has joined
2330 2013-12-17 23:56:40 <Luke-Jr> sigh, I wish txid was a hash of just the first input's OutPoint
2331 2013-12-17 23:57:31 <gmaxwell> you know that wouldn't work, right?
2332 2013-12-17 23:58:27 <nsh> why?
2333 2013-12-17 23:58:36 jakov has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2334 2013-12-17 23:58:38 <sipa> double spends would have the same txid
2335 2013-12-17 23:58:59 <nsh> mm
2336 2013-12-17 23:59:24 capa66 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2337 2013-12-17 23:59:50 capa66 has joined